They wear the uniform
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Podcast on Jun 28, 2010 
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I’m not sure how you judge your days, but if you’re a guy has been in the big leagues less than a week, it’s probably a good day when the game’s best closer wants to talk about you.
“How about Curtis?” Mariano Rivera said last night. “That was a good at-bat, huh?”
Yes, yes it was. And Chad Huffman had a big hit right before it. With Marcus Thames and Nick Johnson on the disabled list, the veterans on the Yankees bench are 24-year-olds Ramiro Pena and Francisco Cervelli. But the kids have been alright. Pena’s glove is ridiculous and he’s come up with some big hits, Kevin Russo helped bridge the gap when injuries crushed the outfield, Cervelli has been key through Jorge Posada’s injuries, and now Huffman and Curtis have played well in their brief time in New York.
The Yankees might very well try to bolster their bench in the next month and a half, but they’ve gotten some solid contributions from young players out of the minor league system, and the other guys in the clubhouse have noticed.
Mariano Rivera: “They wear the uniform. When they wear that uniform they want to do everything in their power to do right and contribute to the win.”
Alex Rodriguez: “You can’t say enough about our young kids. Every single one of those guys had some unbelievable at-bats. Give those kids a lot of credit. They definitely acted like seasoned veteran. Just very proud of those guys in the ninth inning.”
Joe Girardi: “They had great at-bats. You look at Colin Curtis’s at-bats all trip long. They were all very very good. And Huffman has had much better at-bats off the bench than he did in maybe his first start.”
Here’s Huffman talking about last night.
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And here’s Curtis.
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That’s Curtis in the picture on the right. Huffman is on the left.
very nice for the veterans to give so much praise to the rookies
Good for Mo and Alex praising these kids to the media;they must be walking on air, lol. This is a very welcoming clubhouse for youngsters; I don’t know how other clubhouses are, but this is very refreshing. For the kids that stick, they are going to emulate the veterans on the team and do the same for kids that come up when THEY are the vets.
YankeesPR Brett Gardner diagnosed with right wrist contusion and is day-to-day; X-rays were negative
how can anyone not like this team ?
yet sadly, there will be people on this site who will continue to dump on young players like Kevin Russo. And insist on playing Fantasy Baseball with the roster, every chance they get.
Gardner won’t be out long. Maybe Girardi will give him the day off tomorrow and he’ll be good to go on Wednesday.
Repost:
# vblade June 28th, 2010 at 2:14 pm
Pat M. June 28th, 2010 at 2:03 pm
Bron Jeers, that is exactly what this is all about……….Know folks, do remember that Joe Giradi was accused of killing the Marlins young pitchers for over using them…..His job was once they were actually in the playoff hunt, was to do whatever it took to get to October…..
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Not to keep piling on, but the notion of Girardi overusing Marlins pitchers was way overblown.
The Marlins finished 10 games out of the NL WC in 2006. Only Dontrelle Willis logged more than 200 IP in their starting rotation.
He had 8 guys in the bullpen who had at least 30 IP, which is consistent with his balanced BP management, where he avoids overworking anyone.
If there was one guy that may have had too many innings, it would be starter Scott Olsen, who logged 180 IP that year, after not having more than 20 IP in the majors prior to 2006. He also pitched 136 IP in 2004 in the minors, so it wasn’t like he hadn’t had any heavy workload at all as a pro. After 2006, he logged another 176 IP in 2007, and another 200 IP in 2008, so he clearly wasn’t really adversely affected by his usage in 2006.
BTW, with regards to 2009, Girardi showed much more balanced BP usage in this season than in any of Torre’s championship years.
Torre had 200 IP workhorses in his tenure also, but his BP usage was always the same.
It’s not Torre hate, just Torre fact.
1. Betsy (from 1:42 on last thread) – Agreed. You know, that might be the same twit who posts hear on game nights.
2. Great story about Huffman and Curtis. I wouldn’t be surprised if Joe starts them against Seattle. Of course, that would mean going against Cliff Lee and King Felix. But, hey, it’s the major leagues, not the Lehigh Valley Iron Pigs.
3. Good news about Brett, relatively speaking. I wouldn’t be surprised, either, if he doesn’t miss much time. He strikes me as a tough guy. Besides, when you fight the odds to get to the majors, and then finally make it, you don’t want to take a chance that they think they can get by without you.
Huffman and Curtis in the lineup? I hope not, lol.
Joe, I’m surprised that twit has enough brains to figure out how to type on a keyboard. Also, which twit? There are so many of them, lol
This is a very welcoming clubhouse for youngsters; I don’t know how other clubhouses are, but this is very refreshing
——————
They can probably thank Cervelli and Pena for the welcoming attitude. These guys stepped up and played like veterans last year and were a very big reason why the Yankees won it all. Glad that the Yankees are getting back to understanding that the infusion of youth – not veterans – is the key to their success.
pat June 28th, 2010 at 2:09 pm
YankeesPR Brett Gardner diagnosed with right wrist contusion and is day-to-day; X-rays were negative
*****************************
That’s good news it’s just a bruise! Hopefully he won’t miss too much time.
I don’t agree, Jim. The vets were welcoming to Cervelli and Pena last year before they had any clue how they would perform. The Yankees are just a bunch of really good guys……
The kids had veteran at bats. Good for them, contributing to the win.
I think Pat M is trying to say that Torre had little to work with after the glory years both starting, inning-wise, and relief.
He milked what he had and tried to get guys to pitch over their heads,catch lightning in a bottle so to speak.
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There is no doubt that Torre lacked talent on the pitching side from 2004-2007 compared to 2009. However, there is no excuse for the way he managed his bullpens in that period of time. He had 3 guys in his inner circle and he rode them all into the ground. Girardi obviously had pitchers with more talent but he spread the work around and showed confidence in guys like Veras and Ramirez who in turn had great years.
Girardi easily could have let Hughes and Coke throw 100 innings a piece last year but he didn’t because he knew they would burn out.
Gardner will be fine. But, can’t hurt to give him a day off on tuesday. I still think Swish needs a day off too.
Over the next few days if Gardy is out, a platoon of Curtis and Huffman beats Thames and Winn.
“Every single one of those guys had some unbelievable at-bats”
better than most of current Jeter’s AB
Patrick-
Who, exactly, would you have given more innings to in the pen 2005-2007 if you were Torre?
Buster_ESPN Heard this: The Royals are really pushing to move Jose Guillen, and continue to tell teams they will eat a lot of dollars.
___
Sounds like a candidate for DH?
MaineYankee June 28th, 2010 at 2:08 pm
Chip
When will you stop trying to replace Gardner?
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Maine -
I don’t know, when will you learn to comprehend?
Brett Gardner was forced out of a game with an injured hand, he’s going to see the team doctor because of massive swelling in that hand.
That kinda leads me to believe that Brett might miss some time. If that’s the case, then I think Colin Curtis is going to see a lot of time in LF in his place.
That’s what I was saying. I’m sorry you’re too dense to have picked that up.
# mick June 28th, 2010 at 2:29 pm
Over the next few days if Gardy is out, a platoon of Curtis and Huffman beats Thames and Winn.
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I like the kids, too. And it was great to see them contribute big time last night. But let’s not get crazy.
The Yanks NEED a another veteran bat on the bench. Curtis and Huffman have a grand total of 3 major league hits in their career. A playoff team needs more experience on that bench.
Thames has been a favorite whipping boy on this board for his defense especially but he has hit lefties pretty well this season.
Who, exactly, would you have given more innings to in the pen 2005-2007 if you were Torre?
—
Colter Bean of course.
If Guillen is available and the Royals are even willing to eat the money, how do the Yankees not go for it?
Guiseppe, can I call you Joe?
I said over the next few days, not the rest of the season.
I’m sure they are on the lookout for another bat as they usually do in July.
Where is David Justice when you need him?
Patrick, Giradi also had 3 starters that logged 200 innings, that helps and a deeper pen of young guys from the organization plus the team ran away with the Division in September……The running joke in MLB during the nid decade was that the Yanks bullpen salary was higher than some rotations, with little dividends……See you later
Chip
No need to insult me because I questioned you.
You just have seemed to try to find ways to replace Gardner, unless I’m mixing you up with someone else.
I’d rather have Thames facing Lee than Huffman.
ac1 June 28th, 2010 at 2:33 pm
Buster_ESPN Heard this: The Royals are really pushing to move Jose Guillen, and continue to tell teams they will eat a lot of dollars.
————————-
It would depend heavily on what the Royals wanted back in terms of prospects, but I would be wary of Guillen. The last thing you want if you’re a championship team is someone with his history of disruptive behavior coming into the club.
MaineYankee June 28th, 2010 at 2:39 pm
Chip
No need to insult me because I questioned you.
You just have seemed to try to find ways to replace Gardner, unless I?m mixing you up with someone else.
————–
I’m not insulting you because you questioned me. I just found your comment to be silly. It’s not as if I said, “Brett stinks, bench him.” I clearly said that my comment was based on the status of Gardner’s hand.
Chip, it sounds like they just want to dump Guillen. The thing about attitude is that there may be a huge diff when he comes into our locker room. Being in last place all the time with no hope of winning can make people a behavior problem.
GF – I’d be willing to go with a duo of Thames and Curtis. Thames has a track record of hitting lefties. Curtis, despite his rookie status, seems to get rave reviews for his hitting style; plus, he’s got a rep for good D and baserunning.
Patrick,
In the last thread you said that Girardi did a good job of spreading the work out in the bullpen in 08 and that Torre would have burned up 3 relievers..but…..the Yankees didn’t make the playoffs in 2008.
I’m not saying anyone is wrong about Torre’s bullpen management but I also think their is some truth to the fact that he had to ride the relievers he trusted just to make the postseason in some of those years. I think Girardi is great for this current team but he is working with a much better ran organization and much better team than Torre did near the end IMO.
There’s a difference between calling a comment silly and calling someone dense.
Alot of your ideas for players the Yankees should get are silly.
See how I used that word.
I definitely want to see what Colin Curtis can bring us. Who knows, he can be a long term member of the big team.
# Patrick June 28th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
Who, exactly, would you have given more innings to in the pen 2005-2007 if you were Torre?
—
Colter Bean of course.
—————–
2005: Groom, Karsay
2006: Rasner, Bruney
2007: Rasner, Edwar, Kennedy
Everyone is saying Torre has a terrible bullpen, I kind of think with Kuo, Belisario and broxton he has 3 guys he can use with confidence
whom do the yankees have that you can honestly say that girardi can use with confidence, rivera and ???
so if the dodger bullpen is terrible what does that make the yankee BP?
Veras and Ramirez had great years?
In which dimension?
Veras was banished to Cleveland by mid -June and Ramirez didn’t even make it to Memorial day.
Chip,
You did say that Curtis will likely see a lot of time in LF while Gardner is out.
The reports don’t seem to suggest that he’s going to miss much time. He might even be out there tomorrow, although I think Wed is probably a little more likely.
Gardner doesn’t have “massive swelling”. He will be out a few days and be fine.
Its not a question of how many guys you give innings to out of the pen. Its HOW you use the guys you have.
For example, in 2007, Torre used Luis Vizcaino, his second best relief pitcher at the time, 13 times with leads of 4 runs or more in the second half of the season.
He burned the guy out. When he needed him in the post-season, he had nothing left.
Sometimes, you have to sacrifice a game or two in the regular season to keep from burning out your key guys in the pen.
Look, the numbers and reputation isn’t off the mark. Joe is known throughout baseball as a guy who kills bullpens because he relies too much on a few guys and rides them like one of his horses. Often to their detriment.
There is no logical reason to use your closers for 68 pitches in two non-save situations in June. Especially when you have the Giants series, a bigger series for the Dodgers than the Yankees series, starting tonight.
If he was say, a manager with zero rings, people would want him fired today.
The rings only go so far. Especially when the last one was won 10 years ago.
You don’t get special dispensation for stupidity simply because you won rings.
His blind spot as a manager is running a bullpen correctly. Last night was another example of it.
ac1 June 28th, 2010 at 2:42 pm
Chip, it sounds like they just want to dump Guillen. The thing about attitude is that there may be a huge diff when he comes into our locker room. Being in last place all the time with no hope of winning can make people a behavior problem.
————————–
Yeah but he was a behavior problem before being with the Royals – remember he was sent home by Mike Scoscia when he played for the Angels for conduct detrimental to the team.
Sometimes you get lucky with guys like that (Sheffield, Ruben Sierra) but by and large I would stay away from the Jose Guillens and Milton Bradley’s and Carlos Zambrano’s of the world.
I would prefer to see them make a deal for Xavier Nady – he would probably cost just as much in terms of prospects.
Veras and Edwar each had individual appearances that were quite good. Unfortunately, they also had many, many more that were pretty bad. Too bad, they seemed like they tried hard, and got along in the clubhouse, just couldn’t get the job done consistently.
# Pat M. June 28th, 2010 at 2:38 pm
Patrick, Giradi also had 3 starters that logged 200 innings, that helps and a deeper pen of young guys from the organization plus the team ran away with the Division in September……The running joke in MLB during the nid decade was that the Yanks bullpen salary was higher than some rotations, with little dividends……See you later
———————
The notion that Girardi has better BP management because he had 3 200 IP starters just isn’t accurate.
96 Yankees – 3 starters at least 170 IP
97 Yankees – 3 starters at least 195 IP
98 Yankees – 3 starters at least 207 IP
99 Yankees – 3 starters at least 191 IP
And yet Torre still used only 3 guys – Stanton, Nelson, and Mendoza for majority of available bullpen innings.
# Joe from Long Island June 28th, 2010 at 2:42 pm
GF – I’d be willing to go with a duo of Thames and Curtis. Thames has a track record of hitting lefties. Curtis, despite his rookie status, seems to get rave reviews for his hitting style; plus, he’s got a rep for good D and baserunning.
———
I can’t disagree with that. People on this board often go to the extreme when it comes to guys who struggle and when guys are playing well.
Now I not accusing mick of doing that, but we’ve seen people jump on bandwagons after a great game and quickly jump off them after a bad one.
blake,
In this thread I said, “Girardi easily could have let Hughes and Coke throw 100 innings a piece last year but he didn’t because he knew they would burn out.”
Torre would have probably done just that…
There is just no excuse for how Torre treated guys like Quantrill, Gordon, Sturtze and Proctor. He ended their careers…
Chip June 28th, 2010 at 2:34 pm
Brett Gardner was forced out of a game with an injured hand, he’s going to see the team doctor because of massive swelling in that hand.
******************************
Chip-The x-rays were negative. He’s got a bruised wrist. He’ll probably only be out one or two days.
Blake, when you work for an owner ( and a fan base ) that demands a Championship every season, the heat is on…..What really hurt was that it seemed that every season they got off to just terrible starts because of assorted injuries and they had to fight like hell to get back into contention…….Those clubs were heavily flawed, and quite old……..Torre wasn’t perfect in some regards but I don’t anyone else could have overcome the obstacles and still get to October…….Just look at what happened to that great pen of the 06 Tigers after what Leyland had to do in order to play in October………A solid staff hides many a bullpen flaw, it’s seldom the other way around
I would prefer to see them make a deal for Xavier Nady – he would probably cost just as much in terms of prospects.
___
I wouldnt mind the X man back on the team. And the Cubbies are a lost cause.
I agree about not wanting headcases on the team, but sometimes the offer is just too good (i dont know in this case yet)…
Erin June 28th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
Chip June 28th, 2010 at 2:34 pm
Brett Gardner was forced out of a game with an injured hand, he’s going to see the team doctor because of massive swelling in that hand.
******************************
Chip-The x-rays were negative. He?s got a bruised wrist. He?ll probably only be out one or two days.
——————————————————–
Well that’s a good thing then. I hadn’t seen that when I made my post. Simple as that.
Veras and Ramirez had great years?
In which dimension?
Veras was banished to Cleveland by mid -June and Ramirez didn’t even make it to Memorial day.
—
For two guys that are essentially out of the league, they did an amazing job in 2008. Girardi got the most out of them.
The Yankees bullpen isn’t as bad as people think. Robertson and Marte have pitched much better of late. They have Mo at the back end.
Any bullpen that has Mo at the back end is fine.
Joba? Unreliable . He’s hot and cold. The rest of the guys are just guys.
Guess what? That makes it like almost everybody else’s bullpen in the game with the exception of Mo.
If needed, they will find a bullpen arm at the deadline.
In the meantime, you go with what you have and so far, its working.
Curtis put together a great at-bat yesterday. Time for him to take over in left for Gardner.
Pat M, I agree that Torre did a great job managing the Yankees. But you cannot deny that he abused his bullpens.
Quantrill, Gordon, Sturtze, Proctor, Vizcaino were all abused and probably had their careers shortened because of Mr. T.
well said, SJ44.
# Patrick June 28th, 2010 at 2:52 pm
Pat M, I agree that Torre did a great job managing the Yankees. But you cannot deny that he abused his bullpens.
Quantrill, Gordon, Sturtze, Proctor, Vizcaino were all abused and probably had their careers shortened because of Mr. T.
—————
Don’t forget Jason Grimsley. lol.
In fairness, Gordon was old and probably didn’t have more than a couple years left when he left the Yankees. Still, his workload was insane for a 37-38 year old. Almost 200 IP across 2 seasons of being overused by Joe T.
ac1
There are two different pairs I would look at:
Either Nady and Theriot from the Cubs or Casey Blake and Jamey Carroll from the Dodgers.
Either of those pairs would fill the Yankee needs for a RH DH and veteran middle infielder and I don’t see any of them costing the Yankees a great deal in terms of prospects.
vblade…..So that is Stanton, Nelson Mendoza & Rivera ????? That is arguably one of the greatest bullpens in history….Add a rotation of Pettite, Wells / Clemems , El Duque, Cone, Key etc. that’s the making’s of a dynasty run
Patrick,
I don’t disagree, I just think there is a lot of merit to what Pat M is saying as well. Torre was behind the 8 ball in a lot of those seasons with pressure to keep something going that in all honesty he didn’t really have the team to do it with. Old players, old rotation, no farm system, and constant pressure to win despite an organization that was being poorly ran. I get both sides of this argument.
I just read through some of the comments by Matt, the fountain of misinformation on this blog, and have to laugh. Here are some of last night’s gems:
1. Matt June 27th, 2010 at 9:44 pm
“The game is not over they play 9 innings!!!”
Well obviously, but do you really think they have a chance at winning this game? And be honest when you respond. Use your head, not your heart.
Matt June 27th, 2010 at 9:48 pm
The Yankees have not come back from a deficit of more than 3 runs the entire season.
What makes you think they’d do it tonight against Kershaw and a good Dodgers bullpen?
This is a different offensive team this year. The numbers may look good on paper, but they are too inconsistent on an at bat basis to pull off those kind of comebacks thus far this season.
Matt June 27th, 2010 at 10:07 pm
There we go. A-Rod works a deep count and Kershaw gets beaten even on a good pitch there. However, the count made it predictable that he would come inside and A-Rod was waiting for it.
In counts like 3-1 and 3-2, you have more of an idea what is coming so you can sit on a pitch. Swinging at the first pitch is foolish against a guy with Kershaw, because with his stuff you aren’t going to be guaranteed a pitch you can mash right away. You need to work him into counts in which you can figure out what is likely coming to have a chance to get a good swing on some tough pitches.
—————————————————————-
Taken at face value the last one, about getting deep into the count against Kershaw being a good thing, is completely INACCURATE.
Here are the real stats for Kershaw lifetime:
Opponent All Time Batting Average: .221
Opponent All Time Batting Average (first pitch in play): .292
The only way to get to Kershaw is to get ahead in the count, opponents bat way under .200 with when the count has 2 strikes. Since Matt has never played any other game than a video game, he doesn’t know a pitcher is in control of the count, not the batter. With pitchers like Kershaw, you hit the first pitch in the strike zone and the Yankees are good enough for me to know they weren’t chasing pitches outside the zone last night. The statistics don’t lie in baseball, Matt.
So Matt, stop the pontificating, every time you engage your keyboad it makes you sound like more of a dummy.
Pat M,
In LA though, Joe doesn’t have that and he still runs the bullpen poorly.
Even in NY, especially in his last two years, George wasn’t on him as much. It was more Joe panicking and only having trust in a few guys.
That’s tough to do in the AL because the offenses wear you out.
It really is his blind spot as a manager.
I couldn’t believe he left Broxton in as long as he did last night.
Upon reflection though, I shouldn’t be surprised because he did stuff like that often his final 2-3 years in NY.
What he did to Quantrill, Gordon, Proctor and Sturtze was criminal, IMO.
# Pat M. June 28th, 2010 at 2:54 pm
vblade…..So that is Stanton, Nelson Mendoza & Rivera ????? That is arguably one of the greatest bullpens in history….Add a rotation of Pettite, Wells / Clemems , El Duque, Cone, Key etc. that’s the making’s of a dynasty run
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The main problem is that he kept using the same guys over and over, until they had nothing left. Yes, it was one of the great bullpens of our generation, but it doesn’t mean that those guys weren’t unnecessarily overworked.
Excluding Rivera, who usually only entered for single inning appearances, the other 3 guys I mentioned logged an unusually high amount of innings relative to all other relievers during the dynasty run.
I think some may be comparing the wrong teams of the two Joe’s. Joe G’s team last year was retooled.
Joe T’s last teams were starting to become old and needing to be retooled.
I love Joe Torre. The core 4 are always credited for their professionalism, classiness and winning attitude. And who do they all consider their mentor/father figure?
Joe Torre.
So I personally think Torre deserves at least SOME credit for their classy demeanor if even they readily admit that he was a mentor figure.
But all that being said, he absolutely abused his bullpen/relievers to no end. I remember a couple of years ago Proctor pitched in a Thursday night game, then pitched TWO games the next day in a double header, and then pitched the following day! It was 4 games in 3 days! It was absolutely insane.
I have stated numerous times on this board that I have a weird thing/appreciation for relievers because I feel like they never get any respect (said it numerous times… I am a BIG Aceves fan), so seeing him just ruin guys arms like that was crazy.
So while I am a big Torre fan/supporter, it really is undeniable that he abused his relievers to no end.
SJ
Part of the reason Torre gets the benefit of the doubt when it comes to mismanaging relievers is because he won those rings with that same blindspot. Most fanbases will say it’s worth burning out a relief pitcher if doing so gets you to the playoffs.
I’m not saying I agree with the pass Joe often gets, but I also don’t see it ending any time soon.
Heck, when Torre first went to the Dodgers I joked with my friends that the most upset guy about it was Scott Proctor who had just a year ago been freed from Torre’s overuse in the Wilson Betemit deal.
trisha,
You can’t be serious. Time for Curtis to take over in LF for Gardner? Are you high?
Brett Gardner’s been one of the best offensive players in baseball thus far.
I’m really sick and tired of so called Yankee fans bashing this guy. What does he have to do? Hit 40 HR’s and steal 80 bases to justify his spot in the lineup?
# Chip June 28th, 2010 at 2:58 pm
SJ
Part of the reason Torre gets the benefit of the doubt when it comes to mismanaging relievers is because he won those rings with that same blindspot. Most fanbases will say it’s worth burning out a relief pitcher if doing so gets you to the playoffs.
———————————-
He was bailed out by the fact that Rivera is a freak of nature, and the 3 Musketeers (Stanton, Nelson and Mendoza) were absolute workhorses who were still capable even with the massive workload.
In 2002-2007, he wasn’t so lucky.
Patrick , those guys were either over the hill, or just happy to have a job…..They sucked
Personally I think the biggest reason that Cashman didn’t rush to defend Joe or fight to keep him after the 07 season is because he was terrified of what would happen to Kennedy, Hughes and especially Joba if Torre remained in control.
In many respects the only manager who has been more detrimental to pitchers in the last 15 years is Dusty Baker.
I think even the biggest Torre supporters, including myself, have to admit that he abused these guys.
# Pat M. June 28th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
Patrick , those guys were either over the hill, or just happy to have a job…..They sucked
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They ended up sucking because Torre ran them into the ground.
GLove,
That’s a Trisha impersonator. We have one kid who impersonates many of the regulars here around this time. Must be getting out of summer camp.
You can be a Torre supporter, acknowledge the job he did here, AND see he abused bullpens.
In fact, one could argue his bullpen abuse is one of the reasons why he couldn’t get his teams out of the first round of the playoffs toward the end of his reign.
I don’t think one (being respectful of the job he did in NY) is mutually exclusive (the poor job he did managing bulllpens) from the other.
Its all part of the overall package when you get Joe Torre.
“I think even the biggest Torre supporters, including myself, have to admit that he abused these guys.”
I think the subject of Torre and bullpens is getting abused.
Look, it’s an off-day, Yanks faced Torre for the first time, and I’m in the camp of people have the right to talk about what they like.
But man, this whole subject has gotten tired.
G Love
that is not the real Trisha
interesting discussion on bullpen usage
Patrick , those guys were either over the hill, or just happy to have a job…..They sucked
—
Gordon, Quantrill and Vizcaino were good pitchers before they came to the Yankees. Who knows what would have happened with Proctor and Sturtze if they hadn’t been abused by Torre?
Pat M.,
I’ll give you that Torre from 2004 on had some of the worst starting pitching we’ve seen here since the very early 1990′s.
Because of that, starters could not go deep into games and the pen was often called early into action.
Still, his bullpen usage patterns remained the same. He relied on a handful of guys and shunned the rest.
Was he an awful manager? No. He had his great moments and he had his terrible moments. Every manager has that.
But watching Girardi the past few years I’ve grown to appreciate that he has a different approach and allows pitchers who fail him to get more chances (outside of Melancon).
I even think back to 2008 when he showed enough trust in Farnsworth that Cash was able to flip him for Pudge.
If you remember that season, Farnsworth actually wasn’t awful. I remember a series in Fenway when he walked into Boston and blew away Manny.
Girardi showed faith in him and he rewarded him at times that season.
Torre would have never done that. He just wouldn’t.
vblade June 28th, 2010 at 3:00 pm
# Chip June 28th, 2010 at 2:58 pm
SJ
Part of the reason Torre gets the benefit of the doubt when it comes to mismanaging relievers is because he won those rings with that same blindspot. Most fanbases will say it’s worth burning out a relief pitcher if doing so gets you to the playoffs.
???????????-
He was bailed out by the fact that Rivera is a freak of nature, and the 3 Musketeers (Stanton, Nelson and Mendoza) were absolute workhorses who were still capable even with the massive workload.
In 2002-2007, he wasn?t so lucky.
——————————-
Agreed, but it wasn’t just the relief pitching that went downhill.
The starting rotation went from having a lot of top level guys like Andy, Roger, Cone, Wells, El Duque to guys like Leiber, Kevin Brown, Jeff Weaver, Jaret Wright, Corey Lidle and a broken Carl Pavano with Mike Mussina as the only really top level pitcher.
Now I think part of that – especially when it comes to Vazquez, Weaver and Lilly reflects poorly on Torre and Mel (They were never part of the circle of trust and so Torre and Mel didn’t have much use for them) but by and large we all know you can’t win without starting pitchers.
SJ-
Agreed on all points.
Stuckey-
Some people disagree with your premise. – “interesting discussion on bullpen usage”
To be fair to Torre, his habit was reinforced by the nonexistent farm system (lack of options). I can count the number of impact pitchers that came out of the minor league system between 2002-2006 on one hand.
Joe Torre RUINED Tanyon Sturtze?
Joe Torre RUINED Scott Proctor?
You have to be kidding me.
Sturtze was 33 when he came to the Yankees fresh from a 4-18 record two years earlier with the Rays (ERA was almost 6) and a 5.94 ERA the previous year with Toronto. He was a career borderline MLB pitcher who, like most relievers, has spells of excellence surrounding by longer spells of being awful.
Proctor was somewhat better than Sturtze and may have thrown too many innings in 2006 but he was also an alcoholic, was Torre responsible for that as well?
There have been hundreds, probably thousands of young pitchers whose careers were ruined by overwork early in their career. The list of managers extends through virtually every manager in the Hall of Fame, why not blame each of them for every pitcher who did not pitch effectively into their late 30′s?
Some very solid points made today, and what is rewarding they were objective…….Bullpen success is predicated on the front line starters…….But man some of the options that Torre had in the later years of his tenure were ugly…….When Scott Proctor or Taynon Sturtz is your only options to get the ball to Rivera, and your 7 games behind Boston, that’s a tough way to go……..SJ, I think the Curtis AB killed Broxton last night….When you think of where the Yanks were in the order, Torre figured he’d get through it all with a desperately needed W……I have to really cut out , catch you later……MG, great read on our GM Matt McCarver
Pat M.,
I’m on you’re side re: Torre as an overall manager and person. I like him, think he was a great Yankee manager. But I have to agree with the others when it comes to bullpen usage. It’s always been a weakness of his IMO.
I think Joe Torre did a great job with the Yankees. I also think he lost a little luster when Zimmer left. Lost some aggressiveness toward the job, IMO.
No question, he stayed too long at the party. Not just from the Yankees perspective, but from his own POV.
I’m a huge believer in what John Madden calls the “10 Year Rule”. Anytime a coach or manager stays longer than 10 years in one place, they begin to slide. Its natural because the players have heard everything you have to say. It just gets too comfortable.
I think that’s what happened to Joe. Frankly, he didn’t work as hard the last 2-3 years in NY as he had in the past. That’s just reality.
That’s why Cash is so ticked off at him. He covered for him on numerous occasions and didn’t like Joe’s shots at him in the book. He felt betrayed.
Joe was the best guy for the job when he got hired and probably stayed a year or two longer than he should have, IMO. That’s where the feelings on both sides hardened.
In the end though, both parties are where they should be and life goes on.
I hope Joe gets his day and his jersey retired at the stadium one day. He deserves it.
Until then though, Joe Torre is part of Yankee history and not part of the present.
Its best to move on.
Pat M,
Good points about the pressure to win.
But what was his excuse for using Broxton like he did this series? McCourt doesn’t have a win or bust mantra.
Old habits and wanting to take this series got the better of his judgement last night.
Good post SJ44.
“In fact, one could argue his bullpen abuse is one of the reasons why he couldn’t get his teams out of the first round of the playoffs toward the end of his reign.”
Not really you can’t.
2005 against the Angel is debatable at best.
Al Leiter gave up 1 earned in the 8th of a 5-3 loss in what was at the time a 4-2 game in the 8th.
Small and Leiter gave up 2 earned a piece, and Gordon 1 in a game that Randy Johnson went 3inn and gave up 5 in an 11-7 loss (game 3)
Mussia gave up the only earned runs in the Game 5 loss.
Wasn’t a reason AT ALL in the 2006 Tigers series.
Vizcaino gave up 1 run in the 2-1 loss to the Indians in the 11th inning (the midge game) in 2007.
Other than that, bullpen wasn’t a factor.
Interestingly, Scott Proctor, post-boy for regular season abuse, gave up 1 earned in 6 innings in ’05-06.
Point is, unless you want to attribute the bullpen giving up ANY earned runs in the post-season as a product of regular season abuse, the bullpen performed pretty well in 2005-2007 ALDS’s.
If last nights game didn’t prove Yogi’s saying, “It ain’t over til it’s over,” correct nothing will.
SJ
You are so much better than your imposter(s).
To further back up the previous point, of the 9 ALDS losses in 2005-06, starters got 7 and bullpen got 2.
Wang (2)
Mussina (2)
Johnson
Wright
Vizcaino
Small.
As I say, the Vizcaino loss was the 2 Tribe run in the 11th in the 2-1 midge game
Small’s was 2 earned after the Yanks had come back and took a 7-6 lead against the Angels when Johnson spit the bit and gave up 5 earned in 3 innings.
Torre’s bullpen management is certainly debatable, but if the perception exists it was a factor his last three postseasons, that should be erased.
The above should read “Wang (3)”
Betsy, you are spot-on, I was saying the same thing to my gf. This Yankee team is really welcoming to young guys that can contribute, I remember the days when Torre managed the team and how they all seemed to hate the young guys.
Now, thought, it is much more accommodating. Just like you said, Betsy.
In case it hasn’t been posted yet…very cool play by play of that 6th run:
http://www.nj.com/yankees/inde.....e_yan.html
new thread======>>>>
Check out this kid! yankees bigest fan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-92KLYtLuk
Do you think the Yankees ever show the team this game?
http://www.baseball-reference......5080.shtml