Postgame notes: The other milestone
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Notes on Jul 24, 2010 
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Yankees trainer Gene Monahan usually writes the inscriptions on milestone baseballs. First major league hit, first major league win or — just maybe — 600th major league home run.
He wrote on a baseball tonight, but not for Alex Rodriguez. On the night most of Yankee Stadium was waiting for Rodriguez to go deep, Jorge Posada doubled in a run in the first inning for his 1,000th career RBI.
“It’s a veteran team, and a lot of things can happen every day,” Posada said. “Balls are going into the dugout and Geno’s going, what is this for? He’s getting abused every day.”
Joe Girardi knows the rigors of being an every day catcher in the major leagues, and he was impressed. “That’s a big accomplishment,” he said. But it was Francisco Cervelli who seemed genuinely thrilled for the guy who usually starts ahead of him.
“I feel happy,” he said. “It’s like this thing happened to me.”
• Here’s Diamondbacks CEO Derrick Hall on the possible Dan Haren trade: “Definitely no clear frontrunner,” he told The Arizona Republic. “They (the Yankees) are involved like others. Nothing imminent.”
• Here’s a link to the kind of package the Diamondbacks are said to be looking for. Apparently it comes down to a major league ready pitcher plus a prospect or two.
• Alex Rodriguez did not talk after the game, but Girardi said he was happy with A-Rod’s approach. He went 2-for-4 with a walk and two singles. He broke his bat in his final at-bat. The crowd here went nuts when Mark Teixeira drew a walk to bring Rodriguez to the plate with two outs in the eighth. “I don’t think he necessarily hears it when he gets focused in on the pitch and the ball coming,” Girardi said. “But standing on deck there, you have to be able to hear it.”
• A.J. Burnett was really good tonight. He didn’t have his curveball early, “but I’ve got to keep calling it,” Cervelli said. He threw just 58 pitches before the rain delay. “I was able to find my hook toward the end and had decent control of my fastball,” Burnett said. “If I could have carried that on, maybe it would have been a fun night all around. But we’ll take it.”
• Did Burnett come out of the game willingly after an hour-and-25-minute delay? “No, I begged,” he said. “I knew what the answer was going in there.”
• Granted, it was a shortened outing, but this was the fifth time Burnett held an opponent scoreless this season. That’s the most of all the Yankees starters.
• Mark Teixeira was hitless, but he was hit by a pitch and drew a walk. He’s now reached base in 39 straight games. It’s the longest streak by a Yankees since Rodriguez reached in 53 straight back in 2004.
• Posada is the 12th Yankee to reach 1,000 RBI.
• Girardi thought about taking Rodriguez out of the game in the top of the eighth, but left him in just in case he got to the plate in the bottom half. “If this milestone were out of the way, I probably would have pulled him in the eighth,” Girardi said.
Associated Press photos of Rodriguez’s last at-bat, and Derek Jeter in the field.
Repost:
I think the Yankees always believed in Phil Hughes. I think they’ve lost tons of faith in Joba Chamberlain and would move him if they felt the price was right.
We can keep saying Joba Chamberlain has so much promise, so much potential, that he’s only 24 years old and could still be an ace pitcher. But, at some point, he’s needs to produce better results than he has been. The guy has been in the Major Leagues for nearly three seasons and it looks like he’s regressed. His pitches look flat, he looks out of shape, and he just doesn’t think on the mound. For a pitcher, he’s very immature.
I wouldn’t be shocked if Joba is shipped off to Arizona, to the National League, where he’ll likely do very well.
At this point, I guess I believe the Yanks and AZ are talking – and that’s it. I won’t assume it’s thisclose………..
All these mediots have been saying that no one cares about Alex getting 600; well – Yankee fans do. If other fans don’t, who cares?
Too bad AJ couldn’t pitch more than the 5 innings, but he looked good.
Bronx-
When you break it down like that it does seem likely he’s going to break Bonds record unless injury or something else happens. It would be remarkable for him to come to the Yanks in the mdidle of his career and finish 4th on the alltime Yanks list. Some very impressive company there.
The DBacks have every right to shop Haren right now.
The dealings with Seattle were shady because the Yankees thought they had a deal in place.
Nothing has been reported that they are anywhere close to that stage like in the Lee deal.
I hope the Yankees stand pat.
AJ’s good start was very encouraging.
And Pat M, realize that I took a baseball haitus after Galarraga’s erstwhile no hitter, so if things were happening of which I was unaware, then they were. But again, I don’t believe anything unless the information is verified by a named source in the Yankee organization.
Just the way I rock and roll. Too much provocation put out by the hungry media and their “unnamed sources”.
*********************
Meanwhile, Ichiro at bat can be a beautiful thing…
Yes, the D-backs have every right – and I’m not upset at them yet. I’m just saying that I believe there is every chance they are leaking this stuff just to get other teams to up their offers – and that bothers me.
That said, I still have major reservations on a number of fronts.
Come on Wilson!!!
The New York Yankees and Arizona Diamondbacks were “never close” to a deal for Dan Haren on Friday, despite widespread reports that the Yankees had separated themselves from the other bidders for Haren, a source familiar with the discussions told ESPN.com.
The two teams did swap names Friday, the source said. But the Yankees rejected a Diamondbacks proposal that would have sent Joba Chamberlain, highly regarded pitching prospect Ivan Nova and two other prospects to Arizona for Haren.
The Yankees, instead, have proposed an entirely prospect-based deal, which Arizona rejected. Diamondbacks president Derrick Hall told reporters in Phoenix that other teams had made offers of “at least equal value” to what the Yankees proposed.
So much for that………….
Can you provide a link? Thanks
Poor Jack Wilson. Struck out by a very poor man’s Mariano Rivera.
I think the Yankees feel Chamberlain will never live up to his potential because he can’t repeat his mechanics.
Mariano is Mariano because of fastball command, Chamberlain will never be Mariano’s replacement or a good starter with his lack of fastball command.
I would be sad to see Nova go, he’s been touching 96/97 mph lately, but his command is also a question mark.
We are going to see the Yankees make more of these kinds of deals, they will continue to have good but not great prospects reach the upper levels by age 23 that are blocked or have some flaw in their game.
I also think if they get Harren Lee and his 100M+ contract will be off and Crawford/Werth will be back in play in the offseason.
Davidoff doesn’t hate Jeter. He’s an equal opportunity admirer and hater.
Nevermind, here it is:
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-.....id=5405807
Looks like a no-go; so much for the Yankees being willing to deal Joba.
Pat, I don’t agree – he doesn’t like Jeter and he’s basically said it.
Betsy, if you recall last July when Cashman was trying to pry Halladay away from Torono, they offered Montero and Joba…Toronto asked for Hughes insteed…..This was verified during the winter meetings…..Take it or leave it, but the Yankees have been shopping Chamberlain for awhile now…..
“Mariano is Mariano because of fastball command, Chamberlain will never be Mariano’s replacement or a good starter with his lack of fastball command.”
When Mariano was 24 (Joba’s age), he wasn’t even in the ML. I wouldn’t be so quick to write off Joba.
So all this talk for nothing.
The Yanks are not interested in trading Joba – at least not for Haren (though admittedly, Joba, Nova and 2 prospects is ridiculous asking price and I don’t blame the Yankees for turning it down) and the D-backs are not interested in the prospects the Yanks are willing to offer.
Moving on.
“Looks like a no-go; so much for the Yankees being willing to deal Joba”
Like I said, I didn’t believe it for a minute. I still don’t believe it.
Tyler,
Don’t even get me started with RBI’s.
But…. ARod needs to average 69.3 a season to break that record as well. He’s 513 behind Hank Aaron who has 2,297.
The only teams I saw mentioned that might have interest in Haren are the Twins, Tigers and Cardinals. The Twins and Tigers are on his no trade and it said the Tigers and Cardinals probably don’t have the pitching to get it done. So who knows how hot and heavy the talks are at this point.
Pat M, I don’t believe the Yankees have ever shopped Joba. So I am leaving it.
Pat M, I don’t recall that at all…………..and if you’re referring to Heyman, he’s completely unreliable. I do know that Toronto always preferred Hughes to Joba, but that’s about it. I have no idea if they are shopping Joba or not – the point is, this deal is not happening for whatever reason.
Betsy,
That article doesn’t mean they are not willing to deal Joba. We have no idea who the other 2 prospects that Zona requested.
It seems the Yankees would prefer not to move Joba in this deal and just player’s not on the 25 man from the article.
These are just the initial talks though and part of the negotiation.
If they do end up making a deal and talking through the weekend as has been reported, they will likely find a middle point.
Thanks, Anthony.
Great news. I seriously doubted all along that Joba would be going anywhere before the 31st.
I love Haren and I think he’d be a great fit here. I also would prefer him at a relative bargain rate then shelling out another absurd contract for a 30 + year old starter in the offseason (Lee). Haren has pitched far, far better than his ERA this year and would still be a legitimate number 2 starter in the American League.
I don’t see Haren’s value as being exponentially higher than Vazquez’s was in the offseason, especially considering Vazquez was coming off a Cy Young caliber season and Haren has relatively scuffled a bit for the last calendar year.
Jose Ramirez is a very, very similar prospect to Arodys Vizcaino.
Ramirez, Ivan Nova, Brandon Laird, and another B level prospect?
I mean, the point is, I have no idea what the Yankees think about Joba – or Phil or any of their youngsters. All we have to go on is speculation from the media………
Now that Haren is out, if I’m the Yankees I just try to make do until Andy gets back. No one else is worth jack squat.
No one knows what the Yankees are really offering for any pitcher until after the fact. It’s fun to play the rumor game, and it can be as intoxicating as drug, but it’s like flying blind.
“So all this talk for nothing.”
My point EXACTLY!
Though as Pat M said, for those who love discussing such things, it does make for interesting talk, even if the participants realize it may be nothing but talk.
As for me, wake me when it’s over.
Betsy,
I really don’t know how you took that Haren is off the table from that article.
But let’s remember that the “other teams” that Derrick Hall is talking about could be on Haren’s no-trade list which may or may not prove to be cost-prohibitive to such teams if Haren demands his 2013 option picked up as compensation to waive his no-trade clause.
As Cashman always likes to say, “It’s a process”
Bronx-
Regardless of his past mistakes, his numbers are absolutely legendary. Without out a doubt one of the most talented guys to ever put on a baseball uniform.
Well, at least we know where the Yankees stand on Joba. I mean, we always knew. Just confirms it.
I don’t think we do know where the Yankees stand on Joba. We only know what Stark thinks about where they stand.
Joba Chamberlain needs to improve his game. I don’t think the Yankees would be willing to hold onto him for much longer and if the could sell him high, they should do it before it’s too late and his trade value diminishes.
LGY, I realized I jumped the gun – that’s why I posted again that Joba, Nova and 2 prospects was way too much for Haren.
This CEO that keeps talking reminds me of Hank. Now he’s saying that other teams have made offers that top the Yanks? Why say that even if it’s so?
But they can’t sell high on Joba because selling high means valuing him as he was in 2007-08, and that’s not possible.
Night all. I leave as I arrived – believing the Yankees have no intention whatsoever of trading Joba.
I would have been very surprised if he ended up part of any trade deal.
Again, just my perspective on the way I think the Yankees regard Joba.
Rich, despite myself, I do find myself addicted to this gossip…………and it’s terrible for me, lol
Betsy,
I just read the same article that you did. It doesn’t say anywhere that the deal is off. It says they rejected a prospect based package and the Yankees rejected a Joba based package.
That doesn’t mean that a middle ground won’t be found before Haren takes the hill Tuesday night.
And for the record, if you could get Haren for Joba and Nova as the top 2 pieces in the package I would do that trade provided the other names weren’t any top prospects in the organization.
I don’t think the deal is dead. I think there’s some posturing going on and names being leaked in order to up the ante for the other teams coming to the table.
LGY, well – the Yankees rejected the D-Backs proposal and the D-backs rejected the Yankees proposal. I don’t see Cash going back and trying to reopen talks – and that’s ok. I’m not broken up about this.
What bothers me is the talk that the Yankees somehow “need” another starter.
The Yankees don’t need another starter. Not by a longshot. This is the best starting rotation in baseball as currently constructed.
People seem to forget that the Yankees went 11-4 in the playoffs last year with AJ Burnett as their number two starter. Now people are panic-stricken about the idea of having him making a single playoff start? Its stupid.
I’d be perfectly content going to battle with Sabathia, Burnett, and Pettitte again. Frankly I’m almost more worried about Andy regressing a bit as October approaches than I am about Burnett getting it right. By the time the season ends Burnett’s numbers will be where they always are. Over the past 5 years he’s been among the most consistent pitchers in baseball on a season to season basis. I haven’t seen anything to make me think thats going to change.
I’m also not terrified about the prospect of either Phil or Javy pitching. Find me a better # 4 starter in the playoffs than either of those 2. And for all we know Phil will go on a tear in August and September and end up slotting in as the number two starter like it looked he would originally.
Trust me, if Cashman doesn’t acquire a starter and Phil gets on another roll, the innings limits will go out the window if they feel they need him to start.
Betsy
It beats most of the other addictions.
GLove, I guess we’ll see…………but I would never do Joba/Nova/2 other prospects. As it is, I am not a huge fan of this guy simply because of his #s this year and the fact that he gives up a lot of HRs- YS will kill him.
A deal could still get done but the Yanks aren’t going to trade Joba plus 3 other pitchers and pick up all of his contract. His contract isn’t terrible but the D’backs aren’t getting both.
“Well, at least we know where the Yankees stand on Joba. I mean, we always knew. Just confirms it”
mel I do believe that you are right on that. That’s at least where I believe they stand on Joba. Nothing has happened to show me otherwise so I don’t need to spin out on all kinds of idle speculation.
And I’ll support what Trisha was saying about Joba.
For better or for worse, I think the guy is entrenched here for at least a little while longer.
Don’t see him going anywhere.
Rich, that’s right…….of course, you could get your heart broken with this addiction (I’m really still not over the Cliff Lee thing; I just hide it well).
Let’s just see how things stand in the next 7 days……Then we can revisit tonight’s discussion
They would trade Joba in a second, but not for Haren.
Clutch that’s right – the Yankees aren’t desperate. They could probably use another starter, but they aren’t going to panic and make a stupid decision.
“LGY, well – the Yankees rejected the D-Backs proposal and the D-backs rejected the Yankees proposal. I don’t see Cash going back and trying to reopen talks – and that’s ok. I’m not broken up about this.”
—————————————-
Why would talks break down after 1 offer and a counteroffer?
This is a negotiation. That’s what you do in a negotiation.
All this confirms what basically everyone has been saying.
Talks will continue throughout the weekend.
That article is not breaking news and doesn’t really change anything.
I’ll bet a crisp 10$ bill that if Joba gets on the mound tomorrow, KC goes 3 up – 3 down.
…….Well, maybe a 5$ bill.
“I don’t see Cash going back and trying to reopen talks ”
————-
When 2 teams make a deal they negotiate. It’s not here is my best offer, ok I will take it. It’s a process, it doesn’t happen in 2 minutes.
We don’t even know if talks need to be reopened. They may be ongoing.
Pat M, just to clarify – it wouldn’t shock me if the Yankees were willing to trade Joba, just that I’m not sure they are shopping him. AZ was the one who proposed the Joba-oriented trade; it’s interesting that the Yankees came back with one that was completely prospect-oriented instead of a Joba package that was less than what the D-backs had proposed.
Cashman takes things alot less personal than fans do when it comes to dealing with other teams.
A “no” can sometimes be the beginning of a negotiation not always the end of one.
Ok, guys – you’re probably right. In any case, so much for Cash saying that SP wasn’t a priority for them.
The one advantage to trading for a starter is that most relievers that they could trade for are very unreliable and they would come at a high price, so trading for a starter gives them the option to put Hughes in the pen, who may even be a better reliever than Soria.
I wonder if the Diamondbacks want Joba as a starter or as a reliever.
I don’t think it is clear cut.
If there were to trade him that would be interesting to see.
“A “no” can sometimes be the beginning of a negotiation not always the end of one.”
So no means yes??? j/k
Cash is no idiot. He’s got the upper hand here. It’s a salary dump. And few contenders are willing to take on that contract. Boston could, but they’re teetering. Tampa doesn’t need pitching nor big contracts. Texas just got Lee. Phillies just got rid of Lee (lol) because of moneys. Haren for whatever reason hates the midwest and has blocked the central teams. The Dodgers are fiscally unstable. The Reds are just getting back their young hotshot pitcher.
Now the Cardinals is a different story. Duncan is probably drooling over the prospect of tweaking Haren’s game.
Maybe the D’backs were going to include some money in the Joba package. The Yankee package of just prospects and no Joba would probably be the Yankees paying the whole contract. I find it funny when the Yanks ask teams for money in these deals. Cashman must be embarrassed to mention it like the team will laugh at him.
G-C – I absolutely agree with your post about our starting pitching. 100% agree. And as far as our fifth starter, we have Mitre and let’s not forget that they could always stretch out Gaudin again or have them both give multiple innings and patch together the 5th start until Andy is ready to rejoin the rotation. That would certainly be a fall-back position.
Rich, I’m surprised you want Phil in the pen………..
Facts:
- Yanks would consider trading Joba. He’s not untouchable, but it would take a lot.
- What AZ is asking is way too high. That doesn’t mean we are not going to try to get Haren.
- Yanks would love to get Haren, but not nearly as hot on him as they are/were Lee.
- NY is not hopeful a deal will be done.
A very tough trade market right now.. prices are very high everywhere.
I still can see Haren in NY for salary relief and an all prospect deal.
Talk to you guys tomorrow. Night.
Some of you people take this stuff too seriously. Is anyone upset that Houston is leaking in the press that Harren prefers St. Louis while he’s negotiating with Philly?
This is what GM’s do to extract as much as they can out of teams. Cashman understands the game and plays it himself very well.
Betsy
I don’t unless they need it to manage his innings cap, but I realize that it would be short term, and anything is better than burning prospects for a fungible reliever.
Betsy,
You’re getting caught up in semantics you’re picking up from published reports. You know what comes out in the press is never really accurate in these kind of things.
It’s a dance that’s going on right now.
I’m with you. I don’t think Haren is worth sending some of our best young talent out for. His numbers since this time last year have been pedestrian at best.
That said, I may be alone here, but I don’t consider Joba our “top young talent” anymore.
If you can move him for a top of the rotation starter, it’s not a bad idea.
If we hold onto him any longer and he keeps pitching this way with the same tired act on the mound, his value is going to just keep getting lower and lower.
I don’t think it’s an imperative to deal him, but if the right offer can be made and we use him and his “legend” to make a deal happen, it might be prudent to sell on him now.
I would not trade Montero, Romine, Brackman, etc. for Haren though. He’s owed a lot of money and I think there’s a question in my mind what kind of pitcher we’d be acquiring.
I think this current Yankee teams strong point is the rotation. When I think about the post season, I keep thinking about matchup — that Javy and AJ will be facing the other teams 3 and 4 starters. What team in this league has aces at the 3 and 4 starter roles?
You could make a case for Boston, but they are pretty far from making the post season right now and besides, we can hit their guys all over the ballpark. Lester’s their ace and he’d have to face CC each time out. I put my money on the Yankees in that matchup.
Lost, if looks like your “FACTS” have shifted a bit now that it’s been reported that the Yanks wouldn’t offer Joba as part of the deal!
I sort of hope there are no more tweets on this until the deal is closed……
Rich, oh definitely – I am not interested at all in trading prospects for a crappy reliever (or starter).
Also, Gaudin since coming back over:
25 1/3 IP, 25 H, 14 ER, 12 BB, 18 Ks (4.97 ERA)
Not exactly pitching the lights out, but more than competent for a seventh reliever who can give you some length in situations like today.
I don’t think he’s a realistic option to DFA for Mitre.
Rich in NJ……Phil to the pen is what this additional starter is all about….It keeps his innings down and it makes the Yanks bullpen the best in the game……Pettite is going to be gone for awhile & as m illustrated, it’s going to come down to Yankee dollars…..If Arizona wants salary relief, then no Joba and a lesser package……It’ll be interesting to see how things shake out…..Haren is about next season as well as this season
Lost, if looks like your “FACTS” have shifted a bit now that it’s been reported that the Yanks wouldn’t offer Joba as part of the deal!
Trisha:
Actually if you followed my posts since last night you would see that I never once said that the Yankees would include joba, only that they were considering it.
don’t think my facts shifted anywhere.
GLove, I think I agree with most of what you’re saying.
The only thing is – if another team gets that potential out of Joba…….that won’t be pretty.
I would trade Brackman…………not Betances, though.
I see what you are saying about post-season rotations, but a bad AJ (which is probably more likely than good AJ) is awful – even if he’s pitching against another team’s 3 starter. Javy’s stuff isn’t very good – I just don’t think he’ll pitch well against really good teams. I guess you have to consider Buchholz an ace now, but I still prefer to wait before doing that. That said, they do have excellent pitching if Beckett is healthy (not even counting Lackey, who’s been awful).
I will never understand why the Yankees made Phil the #5 starter if they really want him in the pen………….especially since they made a big stink in ST (and all year, really) about how his innings limits are not a big deal.
This is somewhat of a salary dump, Philly demanded Hughes for Abreu and settled on Henry.
The fact that the GM/CEO or whomever it was felt a need to come out and say other teams have better offers out there than the Yankees tells me they probably want to push Cash to up the ante.
This will be a pitching focused deal, the Yankees have been one of the few teams in MLB willing to trade young pitching over the past few years and if there is 1 thing the Yankees have in their farm system it’s pitching.
As far as Phil in the pen, I’m going to get through this with gritted teeth. I absolutely despise the move -unless it’s late September.
It sounds like everyone is assuming the Yankees are going to get lights out Phil from the pen last year…………dangerous thinking, I think.
They won’t have pitching if they keep trading their youngsters……..I don’t really trust this organization to develop pitching.
Betsy,
They probably want to move Hughes back to the pen around 150 or so innings
“So no means yes??? j/k”
At work, a “no” means we’re communicating.
At home with my kids, “no” is a complete sentence.
JK, I really don’t get it – why can’t they just skip him another 2 starts? That would take him through September. Why didn’t they just say that in ST that they were going to stick him in the pen to cap off his innings? Either way, I’m not happy……….I’ll just have to get over it.
This is where Cashman’s due diligence and hard work is paying off.
He targets a player, but if the demands are too high he can just back off. The beauty of it is, that we don’t really need any of those players. We’re good enough to win “as is”. It’s gotten to the point, that trade targets are “nice to haves’.
Cashman has done a great job setting us up to win. Both now, and in the future.
Betsy,
MLB
Chamberlain
AAA
Nova
Phelps
AA
Noesi
Warren
Brackman
A+
Stoneburner
Banuelos
Betances
Guess what, all these guys cant pitch in the Yankees rotation with 2 spots open for the next 3 years. Trades must and will happen to fill other needs.
Betsy,
A couple of things…
I think that Phil did a lot better than anyone expected and as a result he pitched more innings than expected. There’s 67 games left which gives all the starters roughly 13 more starts. With 6 innings a start that’s almost 80 innings. Phil’s currently at 106 and 186 total is probably 15-20 more than they planned for. He’s had some stressful innings in there as well and he’s scuffling a bit now. This is expected though.
The other thing is that the pen has pretty much been mediocre and sometimes awful. The ultimate goal is a championship so if they feel they can cut his innings, which they will need to do albeit slightly, and help the team at the same time by moving him into the pen….then I guess it’s a no brainer for them.
Is it ideal? Probably not but I don’t think it’ll harm him any either. He’s in the rotation in 2011 guaranteed.
Betsy, with Andy out it’s unlikely that the club will be passing over Phil’s turns in the rotation….And if Andy is out 5-6 weeks, well then that brings us to late August / early September…..By then he will have hit his 175 or so……Who knows, but I think Cashman would rather not worry about using him as a starter come October…Thus the need for another starter…….It’s also likely that they will lose 2 starters after this season, so if Haren was to come ( he replaces Javy ) and Lee spells Andy……Time will tell
Betsy,
I don’t see what your issue is with him going to the pen later in the year. Where do you think he was going to pitch in the post season?
This is Wang all over again with Joba last year, because of Pettitte going down they can’t justify skipping Hughes to pitch Mitre more often. If he’s not skipped, Hughes is going to pitch too many innings.
He’s not throwing his changeup anyway, and he uses all the other 3 pitches out the pen.
Lost, I only saw posts on this stuff tonight so in fairness to you I will say that I cannot make comment on what you said last night. However one thing I would consider changing is your title FACTS to OPINION.
I still don’t believe they were considering letting Joba go anywhere.
I think fans get too emotionally invested in what THEY think should happen and then feel the need to rationalize the situation when things don’t appear to be going the way they thought they would.
I know it is a normal and extremely common fan reaction, but I see it as a total waste of energy and emotion. Fans don’t dictate the game any more than most players do. The organization is going to do what it will do without fan input or emotion.
I would think that an objective intellectual discussion would be a more productive use of time. And it would lead to less fan disappointment.
You think the Cliff Lee debacle would have served as a lesson to some fans! But nooooo.
I think it’s the Buddhist philosophy that says absence of expectation leads to absence of disappointment.
History in sports teaches us that it is folly to get caught up in trade rumors!
JMO on all this stuff. It works for me anyway.
Bronx, I still prefer to skip Phil 2 x and let him pitch all the way through September, but if the Yankees do it this way then I don’t want to hear next year that they are disappointed in his progress as a starter.
Pat M, you’re probably right – and the benefit of doing it this way is that Phil can pitch all the way through without messing up his routine (though I have no idea what their plan is – it sounded after Phil’s start that they were still going to skip him, though I realize plans can be fluid). You’re right – time will tell. They definitely need another pitcher for next year – but I prefer that to be Lee. I don’t know if Andy will retire or not.
“This is where Cashman’s due diligence and hard work is paying off.
He targets a player, but if the demands are too high he can just back off. The beauty of it is, that we don’t really need any of those players. We’re good enough to win “as is”. It’s gotten to the point, that trade targets are “nice to haves’.
Cashman has done a great job setting us up to win. Both now, and in the future.”
Absolutely and unequivocally.
JK, if I recall correctly Phil basically stopped using the curve at some point once he was in the pen. That’s probably why it’s not a good pitch for him…..
I have no problem with Phil in the pen late in the season/post-season, but he needs to start (IMO) so he can continue to learn how to start (getting through lineups multiple times, etc………..). I guess I need to come to grips with the fact that this is NY, not KC and the Yankees pressing need to win comes before development of pitchers.
Anyhow, I guess this has all been rehashed numerous times………if the Yanks don’t get Haren, it might all be moot. How badly would the Yanks go after Lilly or some other “eh” pitcher if they can’t get this guy?
Night all – very interesting discussions!
Okay, this east coaster is signing off for real.
Night all. We shall see what, if anything, the trade deadline brings. I’m betting that Mitre will impress enough to put off any triggers being pulled. Time will tell whether I have guessed correctly!
Well, as Pat M pointed out, I don’t even think they would skip him now as that would mean calling somebody up to take his starts and they already have a kind of unknown in Mitre who is probably going to get 5-7 starts before Andy returns.
Also, odds are that Phil is not going to be in the playoff rotation and I’m sure they wouldn’t mind if he had something left in the tank going into the October pen because it sure seems like they’re going to need his expertise there.
As I’ve said before, I’m not as high on Haren as some others. BUT, if you can get a legit starter for Joba and some lesser prospects (sorry, nova is in that group), you have to do it. If Joba truly is the sticking point, the Yanks are making a mistake. But let’s see what happens. This could drag on for days.
Actually, I think the real sticking point is the money that Arizona has to pay on Haren’s contract. They want a great package without any financial burden which isn’t going to happen in today’s baseball economic environment. Cashman isn’t going to give up a good package of players and take on a large contract for a pitcher that will make over 12M per year.
Yesterday’s Haren news looks to me to be all talk and no action. If they will not include Joba then I don’t see much likelihood. Maybe that’s for the best as Joba has looked like he is throwing better lately, and if he leaves that does significantly shorten the pen.
CC-
“if you can get a legit starter for Joba and some lesser prospects (sorry, nova is in that group), you have to do it. If Joba truly is the sticking point, the Yanks are making a mistake. But let’s see what happens. This could drag on for days.”
It’s either the money or the prospects. The Snakes are not getting both unless other pireces are included along with Haren.
For instance, a reliever, or other worthwhile commodities.
I am relieved to hear that I will not be halfway up an 11,000ft. Mtn. when the deal goes down.
It looks like before next Tues is the target.
I also agree about not making JC the sticking point if everything else is right.
Austin-
Personally, I am not at all persuaded that JC is absolutely off the table.
For better or worse, agree or disagree, he seems to have fallen far in his performance.
Me. I’m of the opinion that he still might be able to be fixed but I doubt the Yanks would do what I think is required, and Joba himself has not shown his dedication to conditioning by passing on going to API in the off season. That’s on him. He did not come into camp in tip top shape and ready to comete for a job IMO. He should have.
that’s “compete” not comete. sorry. typo. It’s early.
The Yankees will need to activate Sergio Mitre before tonight’s game…and that means they must clear a spot on the roster for him. I wonder if they might take this opportunity to DFA Gaudin, Mosely or CHoP. Jonathan Albaladejo may prove to be more useful in the stretch run and in the playoffs than one of those guys.
trade for Haren & move Hughes back to the 8th inning gig…get a right-handed hitter & welcome # 28
get joba out of here…
wonder if the Keys could have had Halladay for JM & JC
I keep going back and forth with Joba .. personally. . i’d trade him
I agree with what CountryClub just said. If you can get a guy like Haren for Joba and prospects not named Montero, Romine, Brackman, Nunez, Betances etc….then I think you have to do that.
I like Joba and have always wanted him to do well but he’s not a prospect or rookie anymore. He’s getting close to arbitration and if the Yankees have no plans of converting him back to a starter (and there are no indications that they will) then you have to get the Value for him if there is another team that sees him as still having that ability.
not knowing really how long Andy is going to be out & a Hughes back-off in innings they will get a SP sure….to much smoke out there for something not to happen
Mike-
Right now Joba profiles a lot more like farnsworth than hughes.
Could that change ? I believe it could.
A lot of that depends on how the Yanks profile Joba going forward.
If they see him as just a reliever, and not even as the hier apparent to Mo his value to them decreases greatly.
He needs to be re-worked IMO and I don’t think the Yanks are up for that anymore. I doubt they even see him as a viable starter going forward.
I don’t necessarily agree but they run the show.
Leaving very soon.
Enjoy the game.
“trade for Haren & move Hughes back to the 8th inning gig…get a right-handed hitter & welcome # 28″
That move guarantees nothing.
Blake-
Morning. I think we basically are saying the same thing in different ways.
Glad I won’t be halfway up a mountain when news breaks.
Maybe Mitre will surprise. 5 serviceable innings would be great.
Have a great day.
Nice post MTU .. enjoy the game as well
# Rich in NJ July 24th, 2010 at 8:49 am
“trade for Haren & move Hughes back to the 8th inning gig…get a right-handed hitter & welcome # 28?
That move guarantees nothing.
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no it doesn’t but it does improve the team in baseball with the best record that would be a huge favorite to get #28
Mike-
There won’t be any TV where I’m heading today but thanks for the thought.
Betsy, on what planet would Hughes missing out on approx. his last 6 starts if he goes to the pen thwart his development as a starter? It’s 6 starts. That’s it. Under anyone’s plan, he’s going to the pen for at least the postseason. Get over it.
“Right now Joba profiles a lot more like farnsworth than hughes.”
MTU
The Farnsworth comparison is extremely unfair. The kid is 24. When Mariano Rivera was 24, he still hadn’t been promoted tot he ML. So in some ways, Rivera wasn’t even good enough to be compared to Farnsworth when he was 24.
As for Hughes, no one supports him more than me, but Joba was a more reliable reliever in the playoffs last year than Hughes. People seem to overlook that.
The Yankees have done a lot of things right, but their handling of Joba isn’t one of them.
So a lot of this is on them.
“no it doesn’t but it does improve the team in baseball with the best record that would be a huge favorite to get #28″
They are a a huge favorite now.
There is no reason to even think about moving Hughes to the bullpen anytime soon. He still has 7-8 starts before they need to start thinking about innings caps on him. That still gives him around 20 bullpen innings. Not likely that he’s going to make 20 bullpen appearances in September.
Rich-
I understand your POV and agree with some of it but let’s not minimize Joba’s responsibility too.
Could te Yanks have handles Joba differently or better ?
I think so.
Your already heard my POV on JC’s lack of commitment to his conditioning in the off season. That was definitely on him.
He did not come into camp ready to compete.
I would like to see him get one more chance to sink or swim but I think the clock may have run out on that with the Yanks.
Obviously, they don’t view him in the same light as we might.
Maybe, for Joba’s sake he is better off elsewhere ?
Just a thought.
Have a good day
Today the sun rises and Joba is still in the coop.
Sorry folks Joba and three prospects is too steep for my blood.
I can see that move coming back at us in a few years in a big way.
MTU
I don’t think his conditioning is the reason that he can’t consistently repeat his mechanics. But if it’s a problem, the Yankees have the ability to discipline him, and to the best of my knowledge, they haven’t.
If we were talking about trading him in a package for King Felix, I would do it in a heartbeat, but I would trade Hughes for him too.
Haren has a 98 ERA+ and is owed a lot of money. The Yankees, as the link I posted yesterday revealed, don’t have much payroll flexibility if they want to keep the payroll at or near $200m.
As such, including Joba for Haren is too high a price.
You too.
It is impossible to know with any degree of certainty whether Joba’s status is a direct result of Joba himself or the Yankees’ method of developing him.
I will say that CMW’s misfortunes likely had a direct impact on how they needed to manage Joba last year, and quite possibly took away the option of sending Joba down at some point last season, which may or may not have helped his longterm development.
I dont like giving up big time young arms. And there’s a chance that Joba can figure things out in the next couple of years. But there’s also a chance that what we see now is what he’s always going to be. I think the Yanks should move him now while he apparently still has value. If you move him for Haren, you’re not selling low on Joba in any way.
Let’s not push joba out the door already,from what i heard on wfan a few minutes ago it probably won’t be joba.
We had montero gone,joba.
Let’s wait & see what happens.
Good morning all –
Going to the game in a bit and it will be hot. Looking forward to seeing the trophy at the stadium, as the precursor to a W and no. 600. I was there for no.500, so that would be neat.
Wonder if the Haren deal will be finalized by the time I get back? I think one of the variables will be how much salary Cash is willing to take off AZ’ hands that will determine how much talent goes west.
Am I reading baseball-reference.com correctly that Haren leads the league in hits and strike outs?
http://www.baseball-reference......da01.shtml
Anyone heading out for the game today, hydrate early and often today.
Joe,
Have fun at the game. Hopefully you (and Kyle Davies) are Alex’s good luck charm.
I would have to convinced that Haren is 100 percent healthy because he’s having a terrible season (4.60 ERA, 1.348 WHIP) compared with last year (3.14, 1.003).
Before this year, however he was one of the best in the game. His contract is hefty, but no more than what Vazquez might get in the off-season ($ 12.75 M for 2011-12).
If the Yanks are going to pick up all of the money then the pkg does not have to be all that great. I think they should hold on to Joba, though.
So…..
I guess this means Joba is no longer “nothing more than a throw-in” in the eyes of fans?
How quickly things change.
You mean a GM actually values Joba as the centerpiece of a deal for an established all-star starting pitcher under 30 in a market where there are multiple suitors for that all-star?
One things for certain.
This attention can only benefit the Yankees because it proves value and announces to all of MLB that Joba is not a hopeless case and there is at least one team out there who believes they might be able to fix him.
The longer this draws out, the greater the chance that other teams in need of cost-controlled young starting pitchers will come out of the wood works as secret Joba fans and possibly engage the Yankees in talks.
Sure, AZ can use this drawn out process to shop Haren but the Yankees can play the same game with Joba.
I found it especially interesting that AZ is playing down expectations for Joba’s performance ability. They had one of their guys come out and say that Joba could step right in and be a closer. There was absolutely no mention or passing thought of rebuilding him into a starter even though you know and I know…we all know…the team that trades for Joba sees him as a potential starter so the first thing they’re gonna do is lay out a path to make him one again.
How many teams still view Joba as a potential starter?
At least one.
It could be more.
We shall see.
Cashman is smart to stall.
Looks like sj44 evaluation was right on the money.
Nice perspective.
Cashman is not giving up 2 good prospects & a 25 man roster reliever while eating all of haren’s money.
No fleece job happening here.
If I’m Cashman, I make it simple for AZ….
If we (the Yankees) take on all of Haren’s deal, nobody on the 25 man roster goes back to them in the deal.
If they want anybody on the 25 man roster, they have to pickup some of the money in the deal.
If AZ can make a better deal with another team, that’s life.
I’d also want the deal done prior to Haren making another start to avoid any chance of injury.
Pat,
We are heading out to the game today and it’s going to be brutal.
Could be the hottest day I’ve spent at the stadium.
Hopefully, Arod hits #600 today.
# SJ44 July 24th, 2010 at 9:33 am
If I’m Cashman, I make it simple for AZ….
If we (the Yankees) take on all of Haren’s deal, nobody on the 25 man roster goes back to them in the deal.
If they want anybody on the 25 man roster, they have to pickup some of the money in the deal.
If AZ can make a better deal with another team, that’s life.
I’d also want the deal done prior to Haren making another start to avoid any chance of injury.
——————————————————–
BINGO!!!!!
I can recall many, MANY people on this very board insisting that Joba has “zero trade value” so this is kind of fun to watch.
Fans have done a 180.
Someone on wfan raised a good point.
With ajax,kennedy,etc… being pretty good it helps up in trades because other teams have more faith in our system.
I don’t see joba going anywhere for haren either unless zona eats a lot of money.
If they eat money the pot get’s sweetened,if not it is an all prospect trade.
The Yankees are a good team as they are. They have some good prospects at the AAA level-Ivan Nova-P, Zack Macalister-P, Eduardo Nunez-SS, Jesus Montero-C and yes, even Kevin Russo who is stuck behind Jeter and Cano. With the team the Yankees have and the depth they are acquiring in the Minor Leagues, they could sustain their success for many years. After all, Jeter and Posada are not young although I hope they play well for many more years.
Stand pat at the trade deadline, play what you have and keep your prospects for yourself and your future.
PS- Joba needs a wake up call. Unless he is hiding an injury, he has the ability to pitch at the Major League level. Maybe a trip down to triple A?
Haren has a real good track record, still relatively young, and looks to be in good health. He has not had a good 2010, can’t spin it any other way. Yet, I still go with the guy’s track record of high performance though, and believe he’d be at worse a nice #3-4 in the AL East.
Haren would also be insurance if Andy doesn’t come back in 2011 and if Lee somehow, someway cannot get signed (it can happen). Not that he replaces Lee but he is a good consolation prize.
Based on what I’ve observed, read on Nova and McAllister, I doubt any of these guys will be a mid rotation starter in the AL East, and certaintly in the next couple of years. I saw McAllister while in Charleston in 2008, he has excellent command at 20 yrs old but I did not see a true put-away pitch..
I can see the Yankees balking though to include 3 potential SP and pay all the salary for Haren. That looks like a steep price. On the other hand, I can understand AZ balking at a NY offer of only prospects for a quality starter,, so there is a middle ground here…
The real wild card in this is not Haren, but Joba. Is he the pitcher from 2007-2008, and 2009 right after AS break, or is he the inconsistent, baffling, borderline ML pitcher we’ve seen for most of the last 12 months. If the Yankees believe Joba is A, not B, they will not include Joba in the deal and take on the $$ for Haren. If NY concludes Joba is what he is, they may take on the $$ and surrender Joba, but they may want to keep Nova out of the deal and only surrender McAllister and possibly a lesser prospect like DJ Mitchell.
Should be fun to see how this all pans out over the next few days..
two things about joba,he seems to get two strikes on a lot of hitters but can’t put them away & he’s never on the same page as jorge…
SJ,
I know this idea may have been brought up in the past, but I’m starting to think you ARE cashman. You pass your ideas thru the comments @ LoHud to see how well-received a move would be, knowing this community is the of the upper tier in baseball intelligence.
Seriously though, your logic is dead-on.