One who got away, one who did not
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Aug 07, 2010 
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At the end of 2008, the top free agent starter on the market was CC Sabathia. He’d nearly won the National League Cy Young after just 17 starts with the Brewers, and Brian Cashman made an aggressive push to sign him to a seven-year, $161-million contract.
At the end of 2009, the top free agent starter was John Lackey. He’d reached double digit wins in each of his full major league seasons, he’d finished five straight seasons with a sub-4.00 ERA and Cashman let him walk to the rival Red Sox on a five-year, $82.5-million deal.
This afternoon, Sabathia and Lackey will face one another in the second game of this four-game series. The pitcher Cashman went after, and the one he let go.
Cashman has been choosing his free agent battles. He went big in 2008, light in 2009 and should have the money to make a splash again this winter.
The Sabathia decision has been a good one, and so has the Lackey decision. Lackey’s been good but not great for the Red Sox. The Yankees, meanwhile, did not commit themselves to another long-term contract, and instead resigned Andy Pettitte, traded for Javier Vazquez and left an open rotation spot for Phil Hughes.
Whatever happens today, I don’t think Cashman would change his mind about which big fish to go after.
The title is misleading to say lackey got away suggests that the Yankees had any interest in him which you said they did not. I am much much happier with CC. Never wanted lackey
sunny615 August 7th, 2010 at 8:57 am
If the Yankees get Lee, they’re not getting crawford. I sincerely doubt Hal is going to ok a $230 million budget.
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That’s not necessarily true.
First, $$ is no object in years when youngish top level talent appears on the free agent market. We saw that with CC, AJ and Teixeira.
The budget can fluctuate and expand to accommodate top players in their peak performance for any given free agent class. The team will take a one year short term hit in order to position itself in the long run.
It’s true signing Lee and Crawford might bloat the payroll–but it’d only be for 1 year.
After just 1 year Posada (13 mil) comes off the books so there’s most of your Crawford money right there.
Andy Pettitte (15 mil) might retire this year or after 2011. There’s a good chunk of the Lee money.
Javy’s coming off the books (11.5). Nick Johnson (5.5) will be gone. Just one more year of Marte (4). Maybe one more year of Mo. That’s another 15 mil right there.
The notion that we can’t afford Crawford with Lee is wrong.
Maybe for 1 year it hurts if Pettitte doesn’t retire.
The Yankees will sign both.
They can’t afford to pass up that talent and what it can do to help the team for the next 4-5 years.
Brett -See this post
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/201.....nt-1488330
And posada and petite are big Ifs.
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Sunny,
SJ included Mo, Andy and Posada. That’s 45 million dollars.
First, this might be Andy’s last year.
Second, it’s possible that the combined 45 mil that Andy, Mo and Posada make is only for 2011 and then it all comes off the books.
There is definitely room for Crawford and Lee.
One year of overlap and bloated payroll shouldn’t sabotage 4-5 years of contributions from Crawford and Lee.
If it’s a choice between Lee and Crawford, I go for pitching. Good pitching stops good hitting.
Just because Hal has big bucks doesn’t mean he will throw it around.
I remember back in ST there being some talk about Granderson’s vision and him trying contacts for the first time. I never heard anything else about it so I was wondering if he’s still wearing them or if he’s still having vision problems?
Okay ignore my first comment I just woke up and couldn’t read LOL.
It’s not a choice. Stop making it out to be a choice.
After 2011, Posada and possibly both Andy and Pettitte come off the books (if they don’t retire sooner).
That’s 45 million dollars.
Marte comes off after 2011.
After 2011, it’s possible nearly 50 million comes off the books.
Can’t help to think the outcome might have been different if Cervalli made that catch.
I honestly think Javy was effected by the error and couldn’t shake it off leading to the walks and loss of control.
I’m not ready to deep six Javy this was another team loss more then anything imo.
Edit: Andy and Jorge
blake
If Granderson is having vision problems, I think it would be easily correctable. Or maybe he is just having a terrible year.
Meanwhile Austin Jackson is hitting .300
As they say hindsight is 20/20
EditII: Andy and MO
It’s early.
RMS,
You would think. Some people just don’t take easily to contacts though…and in baseball vision is everything. I’m not saying that’s the cause or anything although it does look like on certain swings that Granderson never even saw the ball.
I honestly think Javy was effected by the error and couldn’t shake it off leading to the walks and loss of control.
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between Vazquez, AJ and Joba I think Dave Eiland might benefit by taking a couple of psychology classes at Bronx Community College.
Throw money at everyone. Let’s have an All-Star at every position.
Jeremy, this choker stuff is the same BS that people said about ARod. It is total BS and has been refuted time and time again in any statistical study. If there is anything about choking (or being clutch) the difference is such a small amount and is not something that should be factored in.
Buchholz is a serious pitcher. He throws what is really 5 pitches and moves the ball on different planes and changes speeds, yet can still pump in 95 MPH as needed. All of his pitches are plus pitches. If he stays healthy he will be known as a top pitcher in this league and will win a lot of games with Boston.
RMS,
There’s a huge amount of high priced All-Star, even HOF talent possibly leaving this team after 2011 in the form of Jorge Posada, Andy Pettitte and Mariano Rivera.
The Yankees won’t throw money at that problem…they will merely transfer it.
Granderson is a bust. It is not his swing, vision, or anything else. He is a guy on the decline. A bust. Austin Jax is a very good player. All those experts who thought Kevin Long would fix him because he is a genius were being silly. I was wrong as well. I thought he was just bad vs lefties. He can’t hit a lick.
Cashman was picked off again. Vazquez is a bust. NJ a horrible idea.
I ll give him great credit for Swisher. But in all candor he isnt very shrewd. Tex, AJ, Sabathia was the family ponying up for FA’s.
Problem with Vazquez is that his stuff isnt that great. I don’t think he isnt a big game pitcher. I think it is more his stuff is not really good enough for the good teams you run into in big games. Hence the walks. He does not even trust is stuff.
Burnett may be crazy but I ll take my chances in a big game. Can’t say the same for Vazquez.
Granderson is unplayable. Too bad.
Bret,
You don’t trade a 400k player to sign an 18 million dollar player. You trade the guy making 8+ million to add the 18 million dollar player.
This way, you are only adding 10 million and not 17.6 million to the bottom line.
You also can’t look at small sample sizes to determine who has been more productive.
Over the course of the season, Gardner has been a much more productive player than Granderson. It’s not even debatable.
If you want Crawford, Granderson has to be dealt.
Gardner is one of the best bargains in baseball and he is only going to get better.
Even the Yankees like bargains.
Neither Jeter or Mo are taking paycuts. Cliff Lee is priority #1, and they aren’t going to have a payroll topping 220 million because all that does is fund their competitors with the excessive luxury tax fees they would have to pay.
The only way the math works is if they deal Granderson and that’s not going to be easy given the year he’s having.
Thanks SJ. You made my point more eloquently that I could have.
SJ,
I disagree with your accounting.
After 2011, Posada, Pettitte, Mo and Marte could come off the books. 50 million bucks.
The Yankees can easily afford to sign Lee and Crawford and keep Granderson over Gardner.
The Yankees aren’t going to be cheap and keep a guy with a career .720 OPS.
Yall are giving up on Granderson already?
Not me.
Or trade Swisher. His value is at an all-time high and there’s a good chance that this is just a career year for him. I’d much rather lose Granderson, but who would want him? And if the Yankees eat some of his salary then they haven’t saved money. No way they trade Gardner – too cheap, too productive.
I see Bret is peddling his anti-Gardner tripe on here. While OPS is an awesome stat, usually, it isnt for a hitter like Bret, who will generally never have a high OPS due to his lack of power. His game is elsewhere.
While his OPS might be in the .600s post allstar break, its due to an extreme down swing in his BABIP which is likely just bad luck. See: his pitches up the middle getting deflected by the pitcher for unlikely outs, his opposite field liners getting snagged by the SS.
What Bret fails to ignore in that stretch is that Gardners OBP remains higher than GRandersons, which proves Gardners true ability. He can get on base even when he is slumping. Granderson cannot.
Not to mention Gardner plays better defense and has a stonger and more accurate throwing arm. Also is a better base stealer.
ADDITIONALLY, the yankees might be #9th in hits but that is because they lead the league in walks. They are not #9th in batting average. They are 6th…in all of baseball. Other teams get more hits, because they have more ABs, so their lower batting average as a team will give them more hits.
Consider a team with 10 PA, if that team hit .500 but walked 8 times, they’d have 1 hit.
A team with a .300 batting average and 0 walks would have 3 hits.
You could say that team 2 out hit team 1 but you’d be a moron.
Since 50 million is coming off the books after 2011 there is absolutely no need to trade Granderson or Swisher. The money is there. If there is a budget crunch, fine, you keep the cheap guy. There won’t be so you keep your best players.
Without question Gardner has been superior to Granderson in 2010. Granderson is no longer a starting CF on a contending team. He cannot adjust to good pitchers, pitch counts or situations.
He was a much more dynamic player in DET, not sure what happened but the league has caught up to his act and unless he makes adjustments his days as an everyday starter are shot. I liked this trade when it happened but it is not looking good now, that said, I still make that trade given all the facts at the time… Not to pile on Grandy, because everything I’ve heard he is a good guy, but I also don’t like his defensive game,, he plays very deep, very tentative CF, I think he is average at best defensively…
Gardner has not been playing well. Not sure what the issue is but with his legs and an OBP near .400 he should have a lot more steals then he does,,, he is very timid on the basepaths, I’d like to hire away Davey Lopes and see what can be done to teach him to steal with confidence, Gardner can be a difference maker if he takes the next step…
.184 since the all-star break.
That’s just a stat.
Not tripe.
So stuff it.
Sunny,
It’s doable under 3 circumstances in this order:
1. They move Granderson and all of his salary. Not easy.
2. Crawford wants to play here. Not a given since he is a low key guy who isn’t into the attention.
3. They outbid the Angels, who have made Crawford priority #1 in their off-season plans.
Crawford lives in AZ in the off-season. He’s likes the WC and the Angels suit his game. It’s also a soft media market, like Tampa. Also to his liking.
That means, a “blow out of the water” offer may the best way to get him.
To do so, you have to clear the decks of as much salary as possible AND sign Cliff Lee first, which is top priority.
As you can see, it’s not easy to make it work.
This anti-Granderson tripe is reactionary and ignores the larger sample available.
No way I’d trade Swisher. He’s been one of the top players on the team this year. They’d be crazy to trade him.
Anti-Gardnerisms while poor m sleeps is out of line.
What part of small sample size do you not understand?
They aren’t trading Gardner to keep Granderson.
That’s as unlikely to happen as them trading for Soria to set up Mo.
The overlap of payroll through 2011 is immediately relieved after next season when 50 million possibly comes off the books in the form of Posada, Mo, and Andy.
There is no need to panic or play these either or games.
50 million bucks is plenty enough to secure all the top talent necessary to replace the production of that HOF trio that might be departing.
Gardner has OPS’d .900 or better 3 times for a full month in his 2 seasons. Granderson has done the same 6 times… in 3 times as many seasons!
It is not anti-Granderson tripe,, it is watching Grandy day in, day out in 2010, coupled with a 2009 that other than HR was not a positive either for him. Sorry, don’t like his game, I had expected and hoped for better.
What larger sample are you talking about?
The one that has Gardner as the more productive player.
You do this all the time. You get fixated on something and logic goes out the window.
Why in the world would the Yankees trade a productive, younger, cost controlled player to add almost 100% more payroll?
It makes no sense. Which is why it won’t happen.
Bret
I’m late to the party so please explain your reason for trading Gardner and keeping Granderson?
SJ, although it’s only 3 games into the trade for Kerry wood, but, what’s your thoughts on him. Some really mixed numbers to try figuring out. 3.1 innings, 4 hits, 1 run, 2 walks and 6 strikeouts, 1 homer. Which numbers are real? I know that’s not much to go on, but, it’s been a long time since i’ve seen him throw so free and easy.
Granderson’s career is the larger sample.
He’s got Gardner’s career OPS beat by 100 points.
Here’s the great part.
The Yankees can afford to keep Granderson.
Those are the facts.
I think the Yanks can forget about Crawford,, but I wouldn’t shy away from a good offer, doesn’t he have some friends in NY?? Doesn’t hurt to drive up LAA price tag,, no?
The Yankees are stuck with Grandy for a couple more years,, hopefully he can fix himself with Long’s help,, because with his contract and declining performance,, his trade value although not a millstone is probematic to move…
If you want to play the small sample size game, Granderson has a higher BA against lefties than Arod this year. Does that mean you sit Arod against lefties? Of course not.
Don’t let your dislike of a player, which you have for Gardner, cloud your judgment.
The guy is entitled to a slump.
Some guys in this lineup didn’t hit for 3 months.
Two bad weeks by Gardner isn’t grounds for him to be dealt.
…signing off
farmer’s market.
GArdner has a higher OPS than Granderson in the last 6 games.
GB, I know this wasn’t directed at me, but I like the Wood acquisition, I think he’s a pro who still has shut down stuff,,, the question is can he control it? I also like the fact that he beefs up the BP in the late innings to free up Phil as a starter in the PS (provided the Yankees make it).
Bret, how does Gardner’s overall production — not just a single stat — compare to that of the other #9 hitters around the American League?
Thank God for Mo! I would hate to rewind history we either traded Mo or he never developed & never had him as our closer.
Unfortunatley no player can play forever. With Mo at 40 & Joba proving he is not the “Heir Apparent” at this stage of his csreer, there is going to be a huge hole to fill. Mo will never be replaced.
Playing GM & if you were Cash would you sign Lee & Crawford or Lee & Soriano?
Tough call?
Gardner in his career has a higher OBP than Granderson. And a higher batting average.
There’s no real advantage to “driving up the price” on Crawford going to the Angels…the Red Sox or Tampa, yes. Just not teams outside of the division. Moreno has money to spend. He won’t get stupid with it but he’s also not falling for that old “drive up the cost” dodge.
No Bret, the facts are Granderson has been on a downward spiral for two years and makes 20 times the money a more productive, and younger player, makes.
He’s not going anywhere.
GB,
I like what I see of Wood so far. He is throwing free and easy and I don’t think the whole NY thing is going to get to him.
The bullpen is really shaping up nicely.
Important because I think they are going to need Hughes to start in the post-season.
That becomes easier to do if the bullpen keeps performing as it has the last 10 days.
Wasn’t Bret just complaining about the yankees offense being HR hitters so they don’t string together hits??? Brett Gardner is exactly the type of player the yankees need. A guy who will be on base ALL the time.
Granderson is an all or nothing slugger at this point, and he isnt even good at that.
Jennifer, I agree – when did the Yankees have any interest in Lackey? They didn’t.
SJ, it sounds like your done with Granderson as a player and think he’s through – then I guess you think Cashman made a bad trade?
How can Chad say Lackey’s been good? Lackey’s been terrible for the Sox……
Why would the yankees trade Gardner. He is having a good year and is not going anywhere.
Granderson is untradable. He strikes out a lot, doesn’t walk, has not hit for power, among other things. Hopefully he can be straightened out this year or next.
Thanks Y21. I’ve always liked Kerry Wood, though at times he’d drive me crazy. Hopefully, he’s finally healthy and Eiland can help him smooth things out and get the walks and hits allowed down…but, Lord, i do love those strikeouts in relief.
A disturbing trend, that I hope doesn’t continue, but Granderson’s OPS has decreased by 60 points each of the last 4 seasons.
910 to 850 to 780 to 720
Buchholz has 5 plus pitches?
When was the last time Cash made a great trade…maybe Soriano for A-rod?
Can we please not talk batting average when trying to prove a point, BA tells you very little; lets talk OPS as it works great and can be comparable and understandable for most people.
Granderson is still hitting righties well, but not at the level he should be. He will never be an effective player against lefties, but still having a good fielding OF’r who can hit righties well (or crush them like he has in the past) has value beyond his salary.
Gardner might be a .720-750 OPS guy, but with his speed he will add about 50 points to his OPS just in stolen bases and his defense saves a ton of runs so he is very valuable. Think about all the balls he has caught in LF that other LF’r would not have caught. Unofficially compared to an average LF, I think Gardner has caught about 20 balls more for let’s say 30 bases saved. That pace is like adding another 70 points to his OPS. Now you are talking about a guy compared to average who has an OPS that is about .850 or so…very valuable guy. Point is that Gardner with an OPS of .730 or so is still valuable, but his OPS is .771 now and that puts him as a very valuable guy and when you take his salary into account he is worth a whole lot.
Betsy, I still wouldnt call the trade a bad trade. If they trade Granderson and don’t really get much back for him then sure, but at this point he can still turn it around. At the time Granderson was a great character guy who played solid defense and hit 30 HRs while playing 81 games in Detroit.
You looked at those 30 HRs and your eyes would light up thinking of NYS. Now Granderson has basically hit just 10 HRs and sucked completely. He is playing half his games in a stadium built to his strength and his SLG has been down .40 points!! RIDICULOUS. If anything it should have increased 40 points. HE is playing nearly 70% of his games in NYS, Fenway, Tropicana, and Camden. Camden, NYS, and the ability to abuse the pesky pole and go down the line at fenway or opposite field off the monster, and Tropicana being fairly neutral should have boosted his lines considerably.
Instead he kind of sucks.
Yes, Betsy, 5 plus pitches. He throws a cutter at 90-91, he throws a running fastball at the same speed which tails into righties (and has some sink), he then throws a straight 95 MPH fastball and also throws a good curve and change up. While you may call his fastball just a fastball, that is not really fair as he throws them all at different times and for reasons; they are essentially 3 very different pitches that move in different directions and then one is thrown 3-4 MPH faster.
Jerkface I refuse to say Granderson sucks – he’s having a terrible year and he sucks this year, but I’m not going to say he sucks. I asked SJ that because he seems to have turned on a dime. He went from “he’s a very good player” to “he’s a very good player who’s having a tough first half” to “he’s a very good player who is having a bad year and will need to be fixed by Long only over the off-season” to basically saying he’s hopeless. There was no middle ground between the idea that he gets fixed by Long next year and the idea that he’s just a bad ballplayer.
SJ44 August 7th, 2010 at 10:12 am
No Bret, the facts are Granderson has been on a downward spiral for two years and makes 20 times the money a more productive, and younger player, makes.
He’s not going anywhere.
GB,
I like what I see of Wood so far. He is throwing free and easy and I don’t think the whole NY thing is going to get to him.
The bullpen is really shaping up nicely.
Important because I think they are going to need Hughes to start in the post-season.
That becomes easier to do if the bullpen keeps performing as it has the last 10 days.
———————————————————————————————————————-
Lot of similarities between Wood and Burnett, isn’t there? Kerry Wood could be huge down the stretch and in the post season. He seems to fear nothing. I still think Burnett and vazquez will pull it together this year, though. Getting Pettitte back may take a load off of them. Sabathia is the unquestioned staff ace, but, I think that Pettitte is the calming influence, along with Rivera in the pen.
And all those pitches are true plus pitches? Put the man in the HOF………..
GB,
I love the Wood move as well so far. He’s lost weight and looks good and they gave virtually nothing for him. Always like a guy that can come in and miss bats and isn’t afraid to challenge hitters. He could still flame out but he could also be a very importamt cog in the pen.
I missed Wood last night, but someone said he got lucky with the outs, that they were hard hit. I guess it doesn’t matter if he got the outs – I agree he doesn’t scare and I like him as well.
One thing I noticed is that the new guys, esp. Berkman, are getting killed by fans on blogs and boards. They have absolutely no patience for these guys; they don’t give them time to adjust to a completely new situation and they are expected to be saviors.
SJ, really loved what I saw from Wood yesterday too.
One of the bright spots in this team’s recently poor stretch of play has been the pen. There’s not a single guy out there that hasn’t looked terrific.
It also bothers me when people get on Chad Gaudin. In 26 2/3 innings since coming back here, he’s posted a 4.73 ERA, 1.43 WHIP, and has 19 strikeouts and just 12 walks. For the most part, he’s absolutely done his job, and he could be working his way into higher leverage innings too. The last couple times Joe has used him have been in games well within reach.
# mbovasso August 7th, 2010 at 10:17 am
When was the last time Cash made a great trade…maybe Soriano for A-rod?
———-
I’d say the Swisher deal was a pretty good one.
Ho hum. Another day another thread trying to brand another Yankee player. Today it’s Granderson again.
Jerkface August 7th, 2010 at 10:11 am
Gardner in his career has a higher OBP than Granderson. And a higher batting average.
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C’mon, you can’t exclude power in any meaningful discussion! Granderson has not been good, but his track record shows you he can be a righty killer and he should be able to get there again. This is the same board who everyone said Kevin long would make him hit lefties better and I argued that it won’t happen and they need to understand he should be platooned…well the Yankees are starting to realize this now and that is a good thing. The problem is that Cashman didn’t get a righty OF who hits lefties well. He should have gone after a guy like Chris Young or Michael Cuddyer or even Gomes. Reasonable guys who hit lefties much better. Cuddyer would be a great fit, but Minnesota has aspirations, which probably leaves Gomes as the easiest to get…he is kind of like Thames though. regardless Kearns does nothing for us as he hits righties better.
Brett Gardner has struggled of late, but he more than anyone is entitled to slump a little.
The guy has not only been one of the best players on the team this year, he’s been one of the best players in all of baseball.
He’s been worth 3.6 wins above replacement this year. By contrast, Josh Hamilton, a deserving MVP candidate, has been worth 4.3.
Robinson Cano is at 5.5. I’m not one who just throws a single stat out there and treats it as God, but there’s no doubt in my mind that when you factor in both offense in defense, Cano has far and away been the best player in the American League this year, and its really not close.
Was Swisher a trade or a FA signing?
Betsy August 7th, 2010 at 10:22 am
And all those pitches are true plus pitches? Put the man in the HOF???..
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Betty, no need for sarcasm…but yes they are all plus pitches; did you watch the game? He has great movement on his cutter and his running fastball. His change is very good, his curve is very good and then he has a 95 MPH fastball…HOF is a silly comment, but he really has better tools than Hughes does and he is our pride and joy. I do like Hughes body type a lot more, but these days with guys like Lincecum (or even back in the Pedro days) maybe the slight frame works for some guys?
Cano has been an elite player this year, just a complete player.
To get the MVP though he will have to best Josh Hamilton who is having a super year in his own right. Unfortunately for Cano, if his numbers are similar I think the nod goes to Josh.
I’m still on board with Granderson. I’m still on board with Javy. The Yankees are still in first place.
Girardi said Javy’s velocity is down and that is something they need to be tracking.
Good morning –
Been running around a bit, doing some work.
Somebody, I think it was rhapsodyinblue, above, suggested that the error shook up Vaz last night. As I recall, he did strike out the next batter, before the walks started. Regardless, errors happen, and pitchers have to pitch out of trouble. Phil is learning that lesson well this year, but Javy still seems to have problems with it.
A crazy thought – If Dustin Moseley continues to pitch well – when Andy comes back do you find a reason to justify Vazquez going on the DL, and keep Moseley in the rotation?
G-C I agree with your statement. I read in the Genius Maker blog the guy wrote something like what is better about Cano’s game, his offense or his defense? Obviously, not an easy answer which shows how awesome he is.
Guru Man – sorry, you’re right – there was no need for me to be sarcastic. I was out for dinner with my family so I missed most of the game.
I said that though because how many pitchers have more than 2 or 3 plus pitches? I find it hard to believe Buchholz has 5. As to him being better than Phil, that’s obvious…………but of course Phil is at a completely different stage of development. He’s not fully developed and Clay at this point is……..
The New York Yankees acquired center fielder-first baseman Nick Swisher in a trade with the Chicago White Sox on Thursday.
The Yankees traded infielder Wilson Betemit and minor league pitchers Jeff Marquez and Jhonny Nunez to Chicago in exchange for the switch-hitting Swisher and minor league pitcher Kanekoa Texeira.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3700869
If Buchholz was that good, I’d expect better than an 82/46 K to BB ratio in 118 innings.
He’s certainly pitching above how you’d expect him to be pitching this year, although I’m surprised his peripherals are as shoddy as they are in the first place. Perhaps they’ll pick up and he’ll be able to maintain this level of performance, but I’m not so sure.
He’s a terrific young pitcher, but I wouldn’t trade him for Hughes. For all of his advantages in secondary pitches, Hughes’s fastball command and movement just trumps his.
To get the MVP though he will have to best Josh Hamilton who is having a super year in his own right. Unfortunately for Cano, if his numbers are similar I think the nod goes to Josh.
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This is because the people don’t take defense into account. the production from 2nd base is a HUGE plus
Joe, I agree – no excuses for Javy letting the error mess him up. How many times has his D picked him up? Probably plenty.
I don’t even want Moseley starting on Monday – I still don’t get how, if this is a big seriese, Joe isn’t going with Phil.
If you are going to rip Cashman and not know how Swisher was acquired, it tells me you are either a troll or not a Yankee fan.
Making your opinions meaningless on here.
“I said that though because how many pitchers have more than 2 or 3 plus pitches? I find it hard to believe Buchholz has 5. As to him being better than Phil, that’s obvious…………but of course Phil is at a completely different stage of development. He’s not fully developed and Clay at this point is……..”
_________________________________________
That’s not true.
Some people take 120 innings worth of ERA way too literally.
Hughes has pitched much better than his ERA indicates and Buchholz has pitched quite worse than his ERA indicates. I’ve tried to cite examples of this type of stuff all year (Mike Pelfrey), and really most of the type stuff like this does even out.
He’s been worth 3.6 wins above replacement this year. By contrast, Josh Hamilton, a deserving MVP candidate, has been worth 4.3.
Robinson Cano is at 5.5. I’m not one who just throws a single stat out there and treats it as God, but there’s no doubt in my mind that when you factor in both offense in defense, Cano has far and away been the best player in the American League this year, and its really not close.
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The better WAR for current players, fangraphs, has Hamilton leading the Majors at 5.9.
He is also second in WPA and had a good clutch score last I checked. So he’s been one of the most valuable players in the game, and a lot of his hits have been pretty crucial.
So I don’t think you can say someone has been far and away the best in the AL, especially when that player doesn’t look that much better, if better, than Hamilton has been.
“when Andy comes back do you find a reason to justify Vazquez going on the DL and keeping Moseley in the rotation?”
I don’t think they’d do it unless there is really reason to justify Javy going on the DL. Girardi said his velocity is down and they are keeping an eye on that. If he has any kind of injury, he might need to be on the DL. 7 out of Javy’s last 10 starts were quality starts.
The good thing about Moseley is that if he continues to excel we know we have our 6th starter ready to go and to take over a rotation spot if need be. That’s a huge gift.
OK SJ44 – Name all of Cash’s great trades since being GM?
If Buchholz had 5 plus pitches he’d actually strike someone out.
Buchholz has had a few more walks for my liking and I agree that Hughes’ fastball is one I like a little better (even though it is a little slower) because of his command of it, but I like all of Buchholz’ other pitches better (curve may be a wash). the change is FAR better and the cutter is better and more consistent. Hughes also doesn’t run his fastball with so much movement either. I can’t predict injuries, but healthy my opinion is that Buchholz is a little better.
So fleecing other teams via trade is the only qualification needed to evaluate a GM?
That sounds rather stupid.
“So I don’t think you can say someone has been far and away the best in the AL, especially when that player doesn’t look that much better, if better, than Hamilton has been.”
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Wasn’t aware that Fangraphs did WAR. I’ve been upset since BP pulled it from their own player pages- thanks for the heads up.
That being said I still value Cano’s production from a keystone position over Hamilton’s from a corner outfield spot. He hasn’t been better enough with the bat to trump that difference, let alone when the guy at 2B is arguably the best guy in the league there.
Joe’s comment about Javy’s velocity concerned me – slightly, but still. Then again, his velocity has been down all year; I guess with all those innings behind him, it’s no surprise. The Yankees need to be careful who they trade or sign in terms of pitchers – except for CC, they haven’t had the best of luck.
Just as I thought – no comment from a blogging big mouth
Swapping Kerry Wood and Boone Logan for Chan Ho Park and Marte has revitalized this bullpen and added depth to it.
The pen is coming around.
As for the Granderson debate, I’m completely ready to call the trade a bust.
Cashman had to make that trade. I don’t blame him.
I blame Granderson who is a shell of the player he once was and projected to be.
He’s in his prime years and he’s regressed to the point that he’s unplayable.
This isn’t a 2 week slump. This isn’t a 1 month slump.
This is a season long slump.
Yes, he was injured for a bit early in the season, but he was showing nothing before the injury and has shown nothing since coming back.
His offensive game is pathetic. He’s Rob Deer. He’s Dave Kingman. If he doesn’t hit HR’s he has no value to this team because he doesn’t possess the skills to get on base and make something happen with his legs.
This trade could not have gone worse. I guess it’s the payback for the absolute theft of Swisher from Chicago.
I would rather see Gardner in CF and a platoon of Kearns and Colin Curtis in LF. At least Colin Curtis had an offensive approach. There’s no difference between Colin swinging at junk changeups out of the zone and Granderson doing the same thing, except Granderson makes a whole lot more money.
This is why fans in here have to chill with the “trade for everyone” nonsense. Especially all the clamoring for the KC guys.
I think the AL Central is different kind of baseball and I don’t think the intensity is 1/2 of what it is in the east.
Granderson was a prime time player in Detroit, but he won’t be here in NY.
If Kevin Long can fix Granderson, he deserves a lifetime contract.
Betsy,
Mussina wasn’t a good signing?
Buchholz clearly has much better secondary pitches than Phil ( I’m surprised at how much work Phil has to do with his – no so much on the change, but on the curve). I still think Phil throws too many gopher balls – and that will limit how good he can be – so he needs to develop his 2-seamer. That said, Buchholz is 2 years older…………AT some point, the 2 years will stop mattering, but it hasn’t yet because Phil’s development has been in fits and starts thanks to injuries and being in the pen.
Craw, oops – I forgot about Moose. Embarrassed, lol.
# mbovasso August 7th, 2010 at 10:43 am
Just as I thought – no comment from a blogging big mouth
———-
Perhaps you should give him more than 2 min to respond.
BTW, I’d say the Abreu deal was a good one, too.
And David Justice.
That’s just off the top of my head.
Agree with you Betsy. Not a good track record with either trading for or signing FA pitchers
Jerkface, don’t results count regardless of how they got there? Does it really matter how many K’s Buchholz has? Most here loved Wang – and he didn’t strike out a lot.
Mbovasso, but I love Cashman – you don’t, that’s the difference.
Intensity has nothing to do with Granderson’s problems. I think that AL Central versus AL East is crap except you have better overall pitching in the AL East which should be noted.
Giuseppe…that comment was not intended for you but SJ comment to me
David Justice trade in 2000. Big reason why they won the WS.
The Swisher and Marte trades. Helped win last year.
The Bobby Abreu trade. Another excellent trade for the Yankees.
The Arod trade.
Try again punk. You are failing miserably this AM.
Granderson was a prime time player in Detroit, but he won’t be here in NY.
———–
Did you look at Nick Swisher’s numbers two seasons ago?
I’d say he’s turned things around.
Granderson can do the same.
Betsy,
Next year will be a better time to compare Buchholz and Phil.
Crawdaddy,
That’s basically what I meant. You just said it more clearly. In the Central Granderson probably saw a lot of young or journeymen pitchers he could feast off of, whereas in this division there is more money to be spent and the pitching talent is higher. Intensity was a poor choice of words.
OK SJ44 – Name all of Cash’s great trades since being GM?
______________________________________________
I’m bored, so I’ll indulge you with a couple off the top of my head.
1998: Traded Eric Milton for Chuck Knoblauch
1998: Traded Kenny Rogers for Scott Brosius
1999: Traded David Wells for Roger Clemens
2000: Traded Jake Westbrook for David Justice
2000: Traded Ben Ford for Glenallen Hill
2001: Traded Brett Jodie for Sterling Hitchcock (who was lights out in the 2001 WS)
2004: Traded Alfonso Soriano for Alex Rodriguez
2005: Traded nobody for Shawn Chacon
2009: Traded Wilson Betemit for Nick Swisher
2009: Traded for Jerry Hairston Jr. and Eric Hinske
2010: Traded Melky Cabrera for Javier Vazquez
G-C, I don’t buy that stuff, to be honest. I know you are a huge Phil fan, but I do not see how he’s pitched better than his #s – and Buchholz worse than his. I think the whole thing with peripherals is overblown. The idea is to prevent runs – Buchholz this year is among the best in baseball. I’m not even saying Phil won’t be as good as Buchholz – he may or may not. However, right now he’s not – and if he is going to be, he needs to develop his secondary pitches because right now they are weak.
Not a good night for the PFOF crew.
If you’re a light-hitting, back-up catcher w/zero power, you have to make that play a million times out of a million.
Hell, Engelberg from the Bad News Bears would’ve caught that.
The Arod trade was a great one by Cashman. The Nady injury hurt the Marte trade, but otherwise I’m not down on that trade because of Tabata as of yet.
No problem Betsy…I guess you could say that Buchholz is a little more developed because he is over a year older, but they each have thrown just over 300 innings in the majors and they each have an ERA that is just over 4 in this time.
As for the comment by G-C that the peripherals tell that Buchholz has been luckier than Phil this year (I am paraphrasing), the OPS against of Phil is .693 this year and the OPS against Buchholz is .617. That is of some significance.
Giuseppe,
I sort of agree with you re: Swisher turning it around, except at least Swisher was able to hit a little on the road last year and he still got on base.
Granderson has shown no glimpses of anything like that. Where’s the positive outside of he’s run into 10 fastballs he could hit over a fence this season?
Craw, probably the year after that actually. I’m not even comparing them this year because it’s not fair. That said, I think this off-season is crucial for Phil. He needs that curve – and he needs to get it to a point where it’s a consistent pitch for him. I hesitate to even mention the change as I get the idea he simply doesn’t think he needs it.
More Cash trades…Jose Molina was a key pick up in the summer of 2007 too, gave NYY a capable back-up something they hadn’t had in ions.
How about Lance Berkman for a A IF and a AAA RP?
How about Kerry Wood, the closer of CLE for cash or PTBNL?
How about targeting CC, going the extra mile to recruit him, and selling him on NY, maybe not a trade but a damn fine FA acquisition.
For those lambasting Cash, tell me your ideal GM and name me all his grade trades? Still waiting….
Jerkface August 7th, 2010 at 10:41 am
If Buchholz had 5 plus pitches he?d actually strike someone out.
********
He gets some K’s, but guys just don’t center the ball very much on him. It is kind of like Rivera’s cutter in that he may not strike guys out with it, but they just can’t center it. Clay also doesn’t throw as many pitches this way and can stay in the game longer. While striking guys out does show dominance, it is not always great as it takes longer to K guys.
Cashman is a very good job who had a bad offseason.
Granderson may turn it around next season. The more important question is do they keep him in the lineup this season, because he’s killing them.
It’s not like he has the talent or track record of Teix or Jeter.
Betsy,
Based on what I saw last night, Bucholtz has better secondary stuff than Phil right now.
Not sure that makes him a better pitcher, but he has more in his arsenal to use.
Phil needs the sharp curveball to be there for him more than it is.
That said, Clay threw a lollipop to Tex in the first and Tex smacked it to Brooklyn and then stayed away from that pitch.
Buchholz is a good pitcher, but, he’s made most of his living against some of the worst teams in baseball, and until last night has fallen flat against NYYs, Twins, White Sox and hasn’t been es[ecially good against the Angels.
Overall I think Cashman has done a good job. I think his big mistake this past off season was signing Nick Johnson who is always injured. As for the Granderson trade I still want to give it some more time before calling it a bust.
Give me strikeout pitchers every time because it’s the thing that pitchers can most control.
Guru Man, the problem with Phil as a starter is that he’s been injured – missing the bulk of 2 years has really set him back. Now, I have no idea how his secondary pitches would be had he not been hurt, but there’s no point in thinking about it because it’s moot. That is a big difference in OPS, but again – I’m not comparing them this year because this is Phils sort of first full year as a starter. Buchholz may very well turn out to be a better pitcher- he does have a greater assortment of good pitches (semantics as to whether they are plus or not -because they don’t all have to be plus if they are just good).
“G-C, I don’t buy that stuff, to be honest. I know you are a huge Phil fan, but I do not see how he’s pitched better than his #s – and Buchholz worse than his. I think the whole thing with peripherals is overblown. The idea is to prevent runs – Buchholz this year is among the best in baseball. I’m not even saying Phil won’t be as good as Buchholz – he may or may not. However, right now he’s not – and if he is going to be, he needs to develop his secondary pitches because right now they are weak.”
Betsy, you should buy it.
It took me a while to come around to it, but it really, really, really is almost always proven right.
Do you think Shawn Chacon was really as good as the 2.80 ERA he posted with the Yankees? I once did and was proven miserably wrong like some wise individuals on another message board told me I’d be.
Now Phil hasn’t been much better than his ERA. His FIP is 3.94, which is right in line with his actual ERA actually. But Clay has been pretty significantly worse.
No, I think next season will be a good year to compare. Buchholz had 34 ML starts prior to 2010 while Phil had 28 starts. That’s close enough to see how closely they compare to each other next year without any innings restriction. As far as the change, I think Phil needs to work on his ability to throw both the cutter and change which can be difficult for a young pitcher like Hughes due to their respective grips. It’s something for him to work on this offseason and next spring.
Hughes needs the change and he needs his cutter to be better. I think his curve will be fine if he can get those other pitches more consistent and comfortable to throw at any time. Phil’s best games this year have been when he has used his cutter effectively.
GLove, I don’t think there’s any doubt about who has better secondary pitches. Phil himself has said he’s had issues with his curve – which is problematic because he’s had issues with the change as well. It almost seems like the only pitch he’s really going to be successful with is the FB…….in which case, he’s not a starter.
G. Love,
I’ve never been a big believer in hitting instructors turning careers around but I’ve seen it with my own eyes – twice – with Swisher and Gardner.
Regardless of what you think about Granderson, he has far more tools to work with than Gardner. It’s not even close. But Gardner continued to work on his swing and he’s not only become an everyday player, but one of the most valuable bargains in the league.
Granderson has become a bit of a project. But he can turn it around, too. May or may not happen this season but I think we’ll see a difference in him in Year 2 in pinstripes.
Just look at the difference between what Swisher and Gardner was doing 2 seasons ago compared to now.
Call me crazy but I still believe in Granderson. I’m nowhere near close to burying him – or calling the trade a bust.
It wasn’t that long ago that the non-Santana trade was a bad decision and the media ripped Cashman all the time for it.
Never judge a trade this early in the process.
test
Bucholz is two years older than Hughes. That’s a lot at this stage of development.
At this point, Buckholz definitely has better secondary stuff than Hughes.
Buckholz pitches like he will be a top of the rotation guy in a couple of years as he matures…
I’ll still take Hughes though, as Hughes is coming along quite well, and I do think 2 years younger…
Hughes will be a nice #3 starter for NYY next year after CC and Lee. In time, Hughes will mature into a top of the rotation guy..
Not all trades are going to help your club the way you may have thought but I can’t think of a trade that Cashman made that hurt them.
” I think his big mistake this past off season was signing Nick Johnson who is always injured. As for the Granderson trade I still want to give it some more time before calling it a bust.”
I agree with you there.
Betsy I didn’t realize his velocity had been down all year. I was probably the first person on the forum to protest when I heard we might be getting Javy – I was not at all convinced that he could make it coming back to the Yankees, but when it became a fait d’accompli I got on board. And I’ll say I have been pleasantly surprised. I’m solid as they come when it comes to giving a player a pretty wide berth, so I don’t believe that there is any reason to want to S-can Javy. He hasn’t been CC, its true, but he’s done a hell of a lot better than I thought he would, and I think he’s helped the Yankees a lot more than he’s hurt.
I trust the Yankees talent evaluation better than I trust my own – or anybody elses’ here – so if they think he still has a place in the rotation, that’s good enough for me. Without Cervelli’s misplay, it could have ended up a Yankee victory.
Interesting comment about SJ turning on a dime on Javy, if that’s the case. I think the real SJ offers pretty good commentary except for the nasty comments he makes, which I think detract from his forum persona in a big way, but I also think he has shown a tendency to be too abrupt in his dismissal of players who are less than perfect. He’s only human, so maybe he has a tendency to play favorites and make excuses for the ones he likes and give less latitude to those further down on his list, I dont know. But one of my chief gripes about the real SJ has to do with (what I have considered to be) precipitously strident comments about players when they haven’t met his rigid standards. Maybe it just makes him a fan like the rest of us here, but I guess I hold him to a higher standard because he has held himself out to be on some higher plane of understanding than the rest of us here.
Right now, the Granderson trade has hurt the Yankees.
GB, I think Buchholz pitched a great game early this year against the Twins; he’s not had many bad starts since early in the season. To be fair, what good teams has Phil beaten? He beat the White Sox early – when they were bad. He beat the Tigers – ok. The Sox were ok, not great at the time. He beat the As. He’s beaten the Orioles twice.
“Bucholz is two years older than Hughes. That’s a lot at this stage of development.”
A year from now that excuse can’t be used in my opinion.
” I think his big mistake this past off season was signing Nick Johnson who is always injured. As for the Granderson trade I still want to give it some more time before calling it a bust.”
ABSOLUELY AGREE.
GreenBeret7 August 7th, 2010 at 10:05 am
SJ, although it’s only 3 games into the trade for Kerry wood, but, what’s your thoughts on him. Some really mixed numbers to try figuring out. 3.1 innings, 4 hits, 1 run, 2 walks and 6 strikeouts, 1 homer. Which numbers are real? I know that’s not much to go on, but, it’s been a long time since i’ve seen him throw so free and easy.
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My two cents: Wood has a plus fastball and plus curve and seems to get hit (or be wild) with his cutter-I’d stick to the 2 plus pitches, it’s more than enough to be solid for 1 inning.
Did anyone see the article recently that Nick Johnson is expected to be back with the Yankees before the end of the season? Or is it just a figment of my fertile imagination? LOL.
Nick the Stick wasn’t hitting worth a lick before he went down, but at least he saw a lot of pitches and got on base a lot, something that neither Grandy nor Cervelli seem capable of doing at the moment.
“Right now, the Granderson trade has hurt the Yankees.”
How so?
“Right now, the Granderson trade has hurt the Yankees.”
If you assume Jackson would be doing for the Yankees like he’s doing for Tigers. I can’t make that assumption for various reasons.
Crawdaddy August 7th, 2010 at 11:01 am
“Bucholz is two years older than Hughes. That’s a lot at this stage of development.”
A year from now that excuse can’t be used in my opinion.
——————————-
Bucholz is a much better pitcher this year than last year-he was tentative and nibbling when I watched him last year (and even earlier this year). You have to assume that Phil will get better as well, that’s what good young pitchers do as they mature.
Also, as much as there was a reasonable basis to make the trade at the time, the Weaver/Lilly trade hurt the Yankees.
Pat – you don’t think Granderson for Kennedy, Jackson, and Coke hurt them? Jackson is $10 mm per year cheaper than Jackson right now and right now, Jackson is better. That’s $10 mm that could have been spent now or next year upgrading other areas.
Rich, if two pitchers are =, then yeah – go with the K guy. However, if they are not, then I’ll go with the better pitcher any day of the week.
GC, I don’t know what FIP and those alphabet soup #s mean (only BABIP). Chacon overall was not close to a 2.80 pitcher, but that year he pitched like it so that year he was. You’ve seen all of Phil’s starts- since he stopped dominating, I’m not sure how it’s possible to chalk his starts up to bad luck. He’s given up a lot more hits – most of them hard – with 2 outs (a lot of them) and many of them to bad hitters. He’s given up a ton of HRs (he’d better figure out how to pitch here) and his K rate has diminished significantly.
“If you assume Jackson would be doing for the Yankees like he’s doing for Tigers. I can’t make that assumption for various reasons.”
Actually, you don’t even have to do that. As SJ pointed out last night, Kearns/Gardner/Swisher should be the OF right now.
Alternatively, if they didn’t trade for Granderson, someone else, almost certainly more productive, would be in the Yankees’ OF.
Right now, the trade has hurt the Yankees.
“Also, as much as there was a reasonable basis to make the trade at the time, the Weaver/Lilly trade hurt the Yankees.”
Yeah, but you and I were with the rest of the group over at NYYFans loved that trade when it happened.
“A year from now that excuse can’t be used in my opinion.”
Then you agree, since it’s a year away.
Giuseppe,
I hear you. I think I just think back to Swish at the beginning of last season carrying the team in the opening weeks on his back while Arod was out and everyone was either injured or not performing well.
In that stretch, we saw his potential here as a Yankee and then he struggled most of the season, but still saw a lot of pitches and contributed.
I haven’t seen that kind of streak (let’s call it that) out of Granderson yet.
Maybe Long can turn him around. He has performed miracles here.
I do think that if he continues this kind of play, Cashman will look to deal him as a “couldn’t play in NY” kind of guy in the off season and maybe even eat a little money to get him out of town and go after Crawford or Werth.
The Yankees didn’t want to pay Melky 3 million to be a black hole offensively in the OF. I don’t think they are going to like paying Granderson 10 to do the same.
Kearns has to show something here first.
I don’t want to get into a Phil v Laps debate,but Phil’s OPS against is bloated by NYS. Need some Jedi mind tricks to solve the issue, but I think Phil’s having a great season, as up and down as it has been.
GC, do you believe in OPS against? I don’t think that is used enough for pitchers.
Rich in NJ – I understand your point about strike outs, but I also think the problem with BAPIP is that you can’t tell me more hard hit balls don’t end up being hits than softly hit balls. I like digging into solid contact hits, but at the end of the day the pitchers job is to not allow the batter to hit him hard and that can be accomplished by striking him out (very effective, but can use up pitches) or by not allowing them to center the ball…or get lucky
Mariano is the greatest reliever in history and he hasn’t averaged a strikeout an inning for his career (close though) and he is incredibly effective. Why, because guys do not center the ball on his often.
I do want to point out that striking guys out at a high rate is a good measure of a guys stuff though.
“Yeah, but you and I were with the rest of the group over at NYYFans loved that trade when it happened.”
Absolutely, but pat’s point was that no Cash trade has hurt the Yankees, and that’s not true.
Again, I like Cash. I just wish he would rely even more on in house solutions, but that may be out of his control.
Craw, but Phil has started sporadically in his career while Clay has had that consistent development time (I can’t recall any major injuries that he suffered). I think the injuries and being in the pen has hurt his secondary pitches. I will wait and compare them in 2012.
Phil had the change going in ST and he didn’t use it; to be honest, I think he’s just giving lip service to it. Eiland has said before how stubborn he is about throwing it. Maybe he should dump the cutter and concentrate on the change. That said, I’m a lot more concerned about his curve.
I don’t know how good Phil will be because I don’t know that his secondary pitches will ever be good enough; we’ll have to see.
“Then you agree, since it’s a year away.”
I agreed before this year leading into Phil’s first full year as a ML starter, but come next year, not anymore.
Hi Trish
Actually, I said that about SJ and Granderson – I got whiplash reading his comments about him, lol
Granderson may turn out to be a bad trade but there was no way that Gardner and Jackson would have both played at the same time. You can’t have two outfield spots taken by guys with no power, it just doesn’t work. If they hadn’t gotten Granderson they would have picked up a power hitting corner outfielder and, at the most, platooned the two of them in center field.
I can’t figure out Granderson this year-sometimes he’s hammered the ball but then he goes a week without doing anything-you would have to think that at some point during the season he gets hot for a full week not just 2 or 3 games.
“Also, as much as there was a reasonable basis to make the trade at the time, the Weaver/Lilly trade hurt the Yankees.”
I think trade evals are the hardest things in the world to do, and the beginning of your sentence is part of it. Nuts and bolts reality tells you that what you are looking at when you look at trade outcomes is fruit salad because there is no way to tell what a player would have been doing were he still back with his original team. I will use Edgar Renterria as an example. A player may excel with one team and be horrendous with another. So do you call a trade to another team a mistake when a player hasn’t been producing with the original team?
Once a trade is made I don’t ever bother looking back because there is really no fair way to compare players and situations. JMO
That said, I know fans do it all the time and although it is a totally unscientific way to do it, it is the only way to do it, so fans fall into the trap of thinking a trade should or should not have been made based on the traded player’s adjustment (lack of adjustment) to the new situation.
Three given things over the winter. Granderson will clearly be Kevin Long’s No. 1 project. Javy Vazquez will not be signed. Ivan Nova and Hector Noesi will be given long looks in spring training as will Brandon Laird.
GF, I agree about Granderson; he’s not even close to being a bust yet.
Rich, that’s why you can’t compare them now………However, the 2 year gap won’t matter as much in a couple of years. Phil either gets those secondary pitches down or he becomes a middle or low end of the rotation starter. Either way, even when Clay was strugglling, he generally had more pitches than Phil.
Guru Man
No metric is perfect, but even if one removes stats from the analysis, it just stands to reason that the fewer times the ball is put in play, the less a pitcher is subject to chance outcomes.
“Actually, I said that about SJ and Granderson – I got whiplash reading his comments about him, lol”
G. Love,
I don’t think Cashman is going to give up on Granderson this soon. And why does this have to be about how “Granderson can’t play in NY”?
Maybe the guy is having an off year because he’s having an off year? Nobody can conclude that his struggles this season has jack squat to do with playing in NY.
“Absolutely, but pat’s point was that no Cash trade has hurt the Yankees, and that’s not true.
Again, I like Cash. I just wish he would rely even more on in house solutions, but that may be out of his control.”
Also, Cashman has admitted the Weaver trade was a mistake because he failed to properly evaluate Weaver’s maturity and mental strength levels which he tries to do with all player acquisitions today.
I think Jackson by his own words saw the trade as a kick in the butt to get serious about his game so I’m not thoroughly convinced the Yankees would have gotten Detroit Jackson if he had stayed in NY.
Sometimes like real estate, it’s location, location,location that makes a difference with athletes.
Would Swisher have been 2010 Swisher if he stayed in Chicago?
Trish, the problem I have with SJ is he gets on my case constantly about comments I make (example: Javy) and then he says exactly what I say……..go figure, lol.
Betsy,
I year from now, both of them are on even ground.
Granderson may not be hitting but he is still a quality defensive outfielder. He is contributing in some way. IMO a bust is a trade where the player contributes absolutely nothing.
I’m not ready to pan the Granderson deal just yet. Something is up with him, he was starting to swing it better then has begun to struggle again. I still think he can turn it around either this year or next…..despite that feeling though, I understand that at some point here soon if its not happening this year then you have to think in the present when a championship is on the line.
Hopefully he will start to hit and make it a non-issue.
Buchholz has 24 career wins. 12 are against Toronto, KC and Baltimore. It’s no accident that they make sure that’s who he faces whenever possible. 16-5 against sub .500 teams and 8-14 against +.500 teams. sorry but that’s not impressive by any standards.
Betsy,
You say a lot of things.;)
Just joking with you, time for lunch see you guys laer.
Guru, one reason I hate BABIP is because it assumes that a low BABIP is due to good luck. Early this season, hitters truely were not hitting Phil very hard – he earned his low BABIP. It’s not like he gave up a ton of line drives that were just hit at people.
It’s fine to say young pitchers mature – that’s in terms of learning how to pitch, dealing with circumstances (errors, bad calls) on the mound, etc.. Does maturing mean all of a sudden developing quality secondary pitches? I don’t think so.
Phil Hughes doesn’t need 4 plus pitches to be a top of the rotation starter for a long time, he just needs 2. Right now he has one (fastball), he just needs to have one of the others get better whether it be the curve, cutter, or change.
CC really has two plus pitches-fastball and change, that’s why he can dominate. Andy has the cutter and knows how to spot his fastball. AJ’s problem is that his fastball isn’t good enough (from a location perspective) to consistently be a plus pitch. When he’s on he’s fine but has never learned (and probably never will) how to scuffle through a bad start with 3-4 runs over 6-7 innings like the better pitchers do (and have always done).
LOL see you later Craw ………..
I still say 2 years, but I’m inclined to thnk Buchholz is and will be the better pitcher, period.
GF
I am with you on Granderson. Too early. All the Yankees need from Granderson this year, is to keep playing good defense and to get hot at the right time. Both very doable.
GB
Watching Kerry pitch last night I flashed back to him in his prime. I bet Giradi did as well. It was also kind of intersting that Joe stretched him out a little bit.
Giuseppe,
I’m not saying that I think Granderson can’t handle NY. I just think that’s how a trade of his this off season would be spun by the front office through the media.
If Cashman ever did trade Granderson to sign Crawford, he’d have some serious ‘splainin’ to do.
While I don’t think that’s what will happen, I do think there’s always a chance that’s the decision they make here.
If Granderson has trade value in the off season it might be more prudent to deal him now than run the risk that this is the player he is and Long can’t help him.
It’ll be an interesting decision.
For now though, Granderson is not helping this team win games. He’s wallpaper.
The one thing I don’t buy though is that Austin Jackson would hit .300 here this year if we kept him. There’s no way to say that. He could still be in Scranton for all we know if he remained in the system.
I don’t fault Cashman for the deal.
OK for all those getting defensive about Cash let me say he has done a very good job based on his record, but not great. His strengths were being able to survive The Boss’s wrath, & win 5 Championships (even though the Dynasty yrs were built by (Showaltler & Michael).
I think we can agree:
1.) he is an administrative guy & not a baseball guy
2.) he is not the best judge of talent both at the major league & minor league levels (based on a few of his FA signings Kei Igawa $40M)
3.) he has had a blank check to sign great players (CC, Teix,)
When you think of great GM’s I think of Billy Beane who every yr lost players to FA & still rebuilt & stayed competitve & Dave Dombrowski)
2/19 and counting…hey joe franco you still believe in Berkman too ?
Betsy
The one thing that concerns me about Hughes is if, as you posted, Eiland wants him to throw the change more (perhaps similar to Leiter’s suggested strategy), but he refuses.
Rich in NJ August 7th, 2010 at 11:00 am
Right now, the Granderson trade has hurt the Yankees.
********
That is because the Yankees have not used Granderson the way they should have been used since day 1 and that is as a platoon player. As bad as he has been this year, Granderson’s OPS against righties is still .823. Taking guys with 75 AB’s against righties or more, Granderson is behind Cano, Swisher and ARod only. His OPS against righties is higher than Tex (probably not for long), Posada, Gardner and Jeter’s (only .665)
He can still be very effective for us and is a decent CF’r so that production is worthy of playing against righties. i would also suggest that Gardner be the every day CF’r as he will not need to be platooned as much. The only question i have is whether Granderson can play LF well because Gardner is playing it very well.
give me Buchholz any day over Burnett or Vasquez
Tar, I was a little surprised when he came out for the 2nd inning, too. The one long at bat probably finished him until Monday, though. 31 pitches. Still, got love those strikeout numbers, so far. A couple of cheap hits, but, still needs to get those down. Maybe he can get that cutter refined in the pen with Rivera. with all of his success, he says that he’s still hesitant to talk to Rivera about pitching. I suppose that Rivera is also hesitant to go to Wood, but, maybe they’ll get together.
Billy Beane and the A’s have developed the perfect formula for staying mediocre.
joeman August 7th, 2010 at 11:21 am
give me Buchholz any day over Burnett or Vasquez
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Nobody cares what trolls prefer.
G. Love August 7th, 2010 at 11:17 am
Giuseppe,
I’m not saying that I think Granderson can’t handle NY. I just think that’s how a trade of his this off season would be spun by the front office through the media.
————
I don’t see that at all. I don’t think Cashman would make Granderson out to be a mentally weak guy simply because he struggled.
Players struggle for all sorts of reasons. Most of it has zip to do with playing in NY and I tend to doubt Cashman would use such an excuse as a scapegoat.
# GreenBeret7 August 7th, 2010 at 11:22 am
Tar, I was a little surprised when he came out for the 2nd inning, too. The one long at bat probably finished him until Monday, though. 31 pitches. Still, got love those strikeout numbers, so far. A couple of cheap hits, but, still needs to get those down. Maybe he can get that cutter refined in the pen with Rivera. with all of his success, he says that he’s still hesitant to talk to Rivera about pitching. I suppose that Rivera is also hesitant to go to Wood, but, maybe they’ll get together.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNuc4qfIn0A
Kerry is getting a little comfortable with Mo
# joeman August 7th, 2010 at 11:19 am
2/19 and counting…hey joe franco you still believe in Berkman too ?
———-
Are you really that dumb? Never mind. I already know the answer.
Those who have nothing to do but offer complaints about a team that’s had the best record in MLB for over 2 months is not to be taken seriously.
Rich, he in essence said that of Phil in ST – that in the minors, it was a life and death struggle to get him to throw that pitch. I think it comes down to the fact that he’s afraid of it getting hit……I know he’s said he doesn’t want to get beaten on his 4th best pitch, but how does he know he’ll get beaten with it? The only way to develop it is to use it. I just suspect he was soo good in the minors that he’s really overconfident – that he thinks he can get by with basically his FB.
http://www.nj.com/yankees/inde.....ughes.html
This article is from ST………….and there were other articles were he sounded giddy about his change. When it comes down to it, no matter what SJ says, I have to think the Yankees are disappointed in Phil’s reluctance to throw a pitch they made clear to him that he needed.
Guru Man
I do think that Girardi should have used Granderson the way Buck used O’Neill when he was first traded here, gradually working him in v. LHP, and sitting him v. the toughest ones.
But if I thought Granderson was ultimately going to be a platoon player, I would not have made the trade.
GreenBeret7 August 7th, 2010 at 11:13 am
Buchholz has 24 career wins. 12 are against Toronto, KC and Baltimore. It?s no accident that they make sure that?s who he faces whenever possible. 16-5 against sub .500 teams and 8-14 against +.500 teams. sorry but that?s not impressive by any standards.
*********
This is just silly, they don’t hold him back to face weak teams; they pitch him when his time is up in the rotation, just like we do with Hughes.
Everyone tends to have lesser records against better teams.
and another thing Jeter has been hit more times by a Red Sox pitcher than the total of all Red Sox hitters that have been hit by Yankee pitchers….has Big Papi ever been sat on his butt ?
Granderson is batting .211 against lefties, you would have to think that at some point (assuming Kearns starts hitting to his career average) that Girardi will decide that nothing is going to improve in 2010 and start platooning Kearns and Granderson. He couldn’t do it with Thames because of the defensive liability but Kearns is a decent outfielder. The bottom of the order hasn’t been contributing lately at all, that was one of the big plusses in the first two months of the season.
They also need to get Posada behind the plate as often as possible, Cervelli has not only cooled off at the plate his defense has been ragged as well. Jorge would have taken charge and caught that popup last night for sure.
Betsy
That’s why I think Leiter’s suggestion about when to throw it makes so much sense.
I’m out.
CC gets the win today.
# GreenBeret7 August 7th, 2010 at 11:23 am
joeman August 7th, 2010 at 11:21 am
give me Buchholz any day over Burnett or Vasquez
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Nobody cares what trolls prefer.
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troll……went to my first Yankee game in 1955…so I have some idea what I’m talking about…
jodie boy
Rich, what did Leiter say?
Wood’s mannerisms remind me of AJ – hopefully he doesn’t pitch like AJ out of the pen. I posted an article from 1050ESPN (I know, lol) about Wood and he seems like a great guy and genuinely not bitter about how his career has turned out. I hope he succeeds here
Rich, the thing is – I want Phil to develop a decent change, but I’m more worried about his curve.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/au.....ancesa-2/#
If you guys missed A-Rod with Mike Francesa, first link on that page.
Guru Man August 7th, 2010 at 11:28 am
GreenBeret7 August 7th, 2010 at 11:13 am
Buchholz has 24 career wins. 12 are against Toronto, KC and Baltimore. It?s no accident that they make sure that?s who he faces whenever possible. 16-5 against sub .500 teams and 8-14 against +.500 teams. sorry but that?s not impressive by any standards.
*********
This is just silly, they don’t hold him back to face weak teams; they pitch him when his time is up in the rotation, just like we do with Hughes.
Everyone tends to have lesser records against better teams.
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Good pitchers will at least be a .500 pitcher or close against +.500 teams. That’s a rather large disparity for a supposedly quality pitcher.
# joeman August 7th, 2010 at 11:31 am
# GreenBeret7 August 7th, 2010 at 11:23 am
joeman August 7th, 2010 at 11:21 am
give me Buchholz any day over Burnett or Vasquez
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Nobody cares what trolls prefer.
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troll……went to my first Yankee game in 1955…so I have some idea what I’m talking about…
jodie boy
————
You declared the Berkman trade a bust after 15 ABs.
That sounds exactly like someone who has no idea what they’re talking about.
Rich, then you would not have made the trade. O’Neill for the most part was still a big platoon guy. he had a couple of years where he was effective against lefties, but for the most part he was not helping playing against lefties…and he was a rare guy who did get better playing against them. Granderson has kind of a weird swing, he is tough to analyze, a little like Tex in that they are tough to see. other guys you can see things right away with.
Either way, I think at 6-8 mil a year a guy who should give you an .850 OPS against righties (Grandersons career against righties is .888), steal some bases while playing a decent CF is worth that sort of coin.
GB
I really enjoyed watching him pitch last night. Can’t put my finger on exactly all the reason’s why, but I have become an instant fan. What can you say about Mariano, not only is he great on the field, but it’s like have an immortal as your bull-pen coach.
Bekman on the other hand…. So far a little disappointed. I don’t what kind of player or person he is, but right now he’s like an anti-Jeter.
You declared the Berkman trade a bust after 15 ABs.
That sounds exactly like someone who has no idea what they’re talking about.
———————————————-19 ab’s
Enjoy the game all
———————————————-19 ab’s
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No, 15 ABs. You declared him a bust BEFORE yesterday’s game.
“Trish, the problem I have with SJ is he gets on my case constantly about comments I make (example: Javy) and then he says exactly what I say……..go figure, lol.”
Betsy funny you should say that. I was thinking about SJ’s commentary about players. It sometimes feels like he is impatient with anybody who isn’t seeing things his way. You should be on board with a player, no matter what the player is doing, if SJ is. When SJ has had enough of a player, then if you don’t see it his way you don’t know what you’re talking about. Nice gig if you can get it!
**************
“Granderson may not be hitting but he is still a quality defensive outfielder. He is contributing in some way. IMO a bust is a trade where the player contributes absolutely nothing.”
“I am with you on Granderson. Too early. All the Yankees need from Granderson this year, is to keep playing good defense and to get hot at the right time. Both very doable.”
Hot DAMN
“Trish, the problem I have with SJ is he gets on my case constantly about comments I make (example: Javy) and then he says exactly what I say……..go figure, lol.”
Betsy funny you should say that. I was thinking about SJ’s commentary about players. It sometimes feels like he is impatient with anybody who isn’t seeing things his way. You should be on board with a player, no matter what the player is doing, if SJ is. When SJ has had enough of a player, then if you don’t see it his way you don’t know what you’re talking about. Nice gig if you can get it!
**************
“Granderson may not be hitting but he is still a quality defensive outfielder. He is contributing in some way. IMO a bust is a trade where the player contributes absolutely nothing.”
“I am with you on Granderson. Too early. All the Yankees need from Granderson this year, is to keep playing good defense and to get hot at the right time. Both very doable.”
Hot DAMN
# GreenBeret7 August 7th, 2010 at 11:23 am
joeman August 7th, 2010 at 11:21 am
give me Buchholz any day over Burnett or Vasquez
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Nobody cares what trolls prefer.
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been on this blog for over a year and a half off and on …just because I’m not on here 24/7 like you and joe doesn’t make me a troll
Giuseppe Franco August 7th, 2010 at 11:37 am
———————————————-19 ab’s
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No, 15 ABs. You declared him a bust BEFORE yesterday’s game
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wrong !!!!! I declared it a bust when they got him…..he was having a bad year to begin with..
Okay, maybe Hot DAMN said it all, but it was really supposed to read – Hot DAMN I have the smartest friends!!!
Fran, oh yeah. How soon we forget the value of quality defense, those catches that keep players off bases and that throw that keeps on-base players from running. Good God that’s a huge part of the game!
And Tar, I am so with you on playing good defense and getting hot at the right time. Grandy did spend some time on the DL, so maybe we need to cut him a little slack.
Though I do seem to remember another Yankee player getting pilloried when he wasn’t hitting, despite the fact that he was playing good defense. That would be one Mark Teixeira.
Some of these fans need a good trashing!!!
Carl
I listened to that interview last night and I thought whoever finally convinced Alex to be more Alex and less A-Rod deserves a bonus.
One thing Alex will never be called is glib but the white knuckled interviews he used to give in the past are a huge contrast.
I guessed it was Robertson who didn’t understand why people think winning a WS is hard?
Tar August 7th, 2010 at 11:35 am
GB
I really enjoyed watching him pitch last night. Can’t put my finger on exactly all the reason’s why, but I have become an instant fan. What can you say about Mariano, not only is he great on the field, but it’s like have an immortal as your bull-pen coach.
Bekman on the other hand…. So far a little disappointed. I don’t what kind of player or person he is, but right now he’s like an anti-Jeter.
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Yeah, though it’s just 3 games, he looks entirely different than he has the last couple of years. Maybe this trade has gotten the competative juices flowing again. He had been out for 3 weeks before the trade. Lot of off days for a bullpenner. He was unimpressive against Scranton in a rehab. He could be a big key going forward. If he is, resigning him is a must.
Not sure what’s up with Berkman. I don’t believe for a second that he’s finished. some bad at bats, but, Lowell robbed him of a couple of doubles last night. I’m still waiting for him to stick one in the lower stands. It’s coming. 19 at bats is nothing. Cano just finished an 0-13 and Rodriguez had an 0-17.
Hi my good buds GB and GF!!!
Okay, check you all later.
Granderson is not even a 5th outfielder on any major league team against lefties.
He is an automatic out against them & should not be playing at all against them.
1 hr/4 rbi/.214 avg/.252 obp/.286 slg/.538 ops.That is beyond terrible.His production is devastating the team.
Sj44′s analysis & understanding of the game is better but his opinions are the same.
The stats don’t lie.
It is easy to see that javy,granderson,burnett stink right now & that hughes,cc,pettitte are pretty good.
The rays are a better team than they were last year,we are not.
The question is are we better???
Sj44 is right.We need to bench granderson against lh,gardner in cf,kearns in lf,thames dh.
Berkman is not good either against lh pitchers.Against rh pitchers,dh berkman,gardner in lf,granderson in cf.
I’d give Berkman a little more time. It’s a huge adjustment he’s trying to make, playing away from home for the first time in his career, parachuting into the middle of a pennant race, facing much tougher pitching. I’d give him a bit longer than 15, 19 even 30 (!) at-bats before declaring him a bust.
pat, I’m still waiting for my consultation fee. These changes are a direct result of our conversations here.
I want to see Papi on his rear today….this is crazy jeter gets hit at least once a series when these two play
# JM August 7th, 2010 at 11:46 am
I’d give Berkman a little more time. It’s a huge adjustment he’s trying to make, playing away from home for the first time in his career, parachuting into the middle of a pennant race, facing much tougher pitching. I’d give him a bit longer than 15, 19 even 30 (!) at-bats before declaring him a bust.
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OK…fair enough but he was still having a bad year
#Joeman,
Agreed that he was having a bad year. Maybe he really is finished but I’m not quite ready to give up on him yet. He has hit some balls pretty hard….
pat, whoever made the remark to Rodiguez about winning titles being easy seems to tell about how easy it is for the “kids” to be around him. I think they’re maybe more comfortable with him than some of the vets. Perhaps because he spends so much time with them. all in all, though, it seems to be night and day from even 2 years ago. I’m not there to see it, but, just from the comments of the players. Teixeira in particular has dispelled the BS about him and Rodriguez having issues in Texas.
Lackey up to the last game has been pitching well…CC will have to be on his game today
Cashman got Leyritz for Geraldo Padula. Tragic events in Florida…but that one worked out on the field back in 96.
“Not sure what’s up with Berkman.”
I am not even talking about results, It’s things like his body language, apparent lack of hustle, not sliding yesterday. He just doesn’t seem all there. At the least, I expected a “veteran” presence in the dug-out. Maybe it’s all just overwhelming to him right now. I could be totally be misreading the situation. We shall see.
m
Even I wouldn’t have advocated ackowledging that people see him as damaged goods. Doesn’t get more straight from the hip than that.
# pat August 7th, 2010 at 11:43 am
Carl
I listened to that interview last night and I thought whoever finally convinced Alex to be more Alex and less A-Rod deserves a bonus.
One thing Alex will never be called is glib but the white knuckled interviews he used to give in the past are a huge contrast.
I guessed it was Robertson who didn’t understand why people think winning a WS is hard?
Man that was hilarious.
Tar, I saw the non-slide and wondered about it, too. My first thought is that his knees are really killing him, then, Leiter said something about perhaps he wasn’t expecting the throw or that the ball had gone through to the outfield. Berkman has never been known as a dog, so, I can’t imagine that he’s start now.
# Tar August 7th, 2010 at 11:55 am
“Not sure what’s up with Berkman.”
I am not even talking about results, It’s things like his body language, apparent lack of hustle, not sliding yesterday. He just doesn’t seem all there. At the least, I expected a “veteran” presence in the dug-out. Maybe it’s all just overwhelming to him right now. I could be totally be misreading the situation. We shall see.
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he was never a rah..rah guy, but if going to be given AB’s he better start hitting because this city will eat him up
Wow:
Brett since June 22: .208/.344/.302.
# Betsy August 7th, 2010 at 12:02 pm
Wow:
Brett since June 22: .208/.344/.302.
The thing I don’t understand about Brett is, he will go through a stretch where he just stands up at the plate taking fastballs right down the middle with the bat on his shoulder. He needs to be more aggressive.
# Betsy August 7th, 2010 at 12:02 pm
Wow:
Brett since June 22: .208/.344/.302.
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lost 13 pts of his BA since the AS game
pat,
Que? Did Alex say that? I haven’t listened to the audio, but it looks like he did 2 radio interviews yesterday. I don’t recall him doing much radio?
I think that his last few seasons are following a similar arc to Kobe’s. Remember how we used to talk about it? Both have gone from chump to champ.
Hopefully we’ll see more of Alex off the field.
last year Gardner wasn’t taking any pitches swinging at everything, it was said here that he should take more pitches ( including me) but now he seems to get 2 strikes on him every AB.
Carl, that sounds like Nick Johnson, lol
Just checked the newspaper listing. Fox.
“last year Gardner wasn’t taking any pitches swinging at everything, it was said here that he should take more pitches ( including me) but now he seems to get 2 strikes on him every AB’
The book on him last year was that he wasn’t aggressive enough. This year he leads the league (or is very close ) in 2 strike hits.
But other than that, I agree.
GB
It’s easier to be comfortable with someone when you see them as a resource and not an excuse or a threat.
I also think Berkman isn’t “all there” and he’s overwhelmed. He played for the same team forever and is now thrust onto a big stage and you can see he’s still an observer and not a participant. I think going from playing 1b every day to DH doesn’t help that adjustment.
That said, he’s getting better. Ellsbury robbed him last night.
m
He said that and more. Worth a listen.
Francesa had been trying unsuccessfully to get him on the radio for over a year. I think the 600 almost demanded that he had to now.
.Dellin Betances was named the 11th hottest prospect in the minors in this week’s Prospect Hot Sheet.
# pat August 7th, 2010 at 12:20 pm
m
He said that and more. Worth a listen.
Francesa had been trying unsuccessfully to get him on the radio for over a year. I think the 600 almost demanded that he had to now.
He was gonna go on earlier in the year but the Galea thing came up so his advisers told him no.
Oops. Meant to say that’s the perception. That’s not what I think. Just that everyone loved a winner.
Not sure if anyone looked at the minor league stats from last night, but, Banuelos was outstanding. 6 innings, 4 hits, 0 runs, 3 walks and 11 strikeouts. No wins, but, his overall numbers have been nothing short of spectacular this season, so far.
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.....pid=544365
Tampa has assembled quite a pitching staff. 17 shutouts and 5 in a row until last night.
Betsy,
Here is my point about Granderson…..
I’m not talking about what they do with him in the off-season.
Whether they keep him and completely re-tool his swing (which if they keep him they are going to have to do) or trade him, that’s a discussion for the off-season and not now.
Its what to do with him over the final 50+ games and the post-season.
They can keep running him out there everyday and hope he hits.
Or, they can platoon him.
Or, they can just use him a few days a week and use him as a late inning defensive replacement.
Those are the options. All of them have positives and negatives.
IMO, the most risky is playing him everyday.
He’s not going to hit this year. He hasn’t really had one hot streak all year and its not coming now since his swing is a mess.
Unlike Gardner who still sees a lot of pitches. can draw walks and steal bases when he isn’t hitting, Granderson doesn’t do that stuff.
Therefore, if he isn’t hitting, you can’t play him everyday.
You can platoon him. Which I think is what Girardi is going to do. That’s a start but, too conservative a way to handle the situation, IMO.
You can play Kearns everyday in LF for now, put Gardner in CF, and make Granderson a part-time player/late inning defensive replacement.
At this point, Option 3 is the best way to get through the rest of the season, IMO.
You can’t wait on the guy any longer.
On days he and Cervelli hit back to back, the offense completely shuts down because you give away 8 AB’s a game.
They don’t have a choice re: Cervelli. Somebody has to catch.
They do have a choice in what they do with Granderson the rest of the way and I think now is the time to pull the plug on him for this year.
eboland11 Today’s lineup: Jeter ss, Swisher rf, Teixeira 1b, ARod 3b, Cano 2b, Posada c, Berkman dh, Granderson cf, Gardner lf
At least that line up doesn’t have 2 auto outs in a row, but Granderson and Gardner aren’t lighting it up offensively.
“I was not at all convinced that he could make it coming back to the Yankees, but when it became a fait d’accompli I got on board.”
The phrase is ‘fait accompli’ – no ‘d’.
bashing Cashman requires overcoming this simple fact (which I don’t think anyone can):
while he’s been the G.M., the Yanks have won seven pennants and five World Series titles.
people can pick apart each individual move, but the results are what matter most, and those results are epic.
SJ, I guess I can’t disagree, but if Granderson doesn’t do anything except hit HRs (he’s never been a high average guy), then Cash completely miscalculated……and this trade can come back to bite us.
I don’t think Gardner is all that on the bases, no matter what his rep is.
SJ,.
Fair points. I’m not sure I totally agree (yet). Maybe a platoon but I’d still stick with Granderson against righties for now because it puts the best defense on the field and I still have to believe he’s better than this….I know, I’m stubborn.
BG is hitting .189 since July 1st.
Granderson is hitting .240 since July 1st.
They both need to step it up.
Who was the catcher who backed up Jorge before they traded for Molina? I remember he couldn’t hit a lick, but the night he got traded he had two doubles an an overall great night. For the life of me i cant remember his name.
Nieves?
Fasano?
Nieves! Wil Nieves! haha, thanks!
U dont suck
Sal was the catcher, IIRC. Fasano?
4PM Saturday Fox game blows, three more hours until my baseball game.
I thought Wil Nieves was before Fasano. Fasano couldn’t hit either.
I don’t dislike Crawford, but I would like to see him stay with TB. It’s just good for baseball. Cliff Lee has been tossed around multiple teams already, so it doesn’t seem like a big deal for him to go to a new team.
Even though TB is our direct competition, it would be nice to see them keep him to provide competitive balance and since he has already played his entire career there.