Good stuff in a bad loss
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Podcast on Sep 16, 2010 
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More good than bad came out of Phil Hughes last night.
“It definitely could have been worse, but the only goal you have here is to win,” he said. “On a positive note, I feel like my stuff was good and I made some pretty good pitches for the most part, so I can carry that over to my next one.”
There will be a next one, and it will almost certainly come against this same Tampa Bay lineup. For a while last night Hughes looked as crisp as he’d looked all season, but the home run pitches brought back old concerns about finishing hitters and finishing innings.
“I think that’s all part of the learning process, learning to close out innings,” Joe Girardi said. “… He’ll bounce back. It’s tough. It’s an important game and he pitched extremely well, and you make a few mistakes and get beat. We understand that’s part of the game, and I liked the way he pitched.”
The past two times Hughes pitched on extended rest, he struggled to regain his form. He skipped a start in late June, pitched on nine-days rest and allowed seven runs to the weak-hitting Mariners. The all-star break left him with 10 days off between starts, and in his first game back he allowed nine hits and six runs.
This time, the Yankees let Hughes pitch one inning out of the bullpen between starts. The hope was that live hitters would keep him sharp during his time off. It seemed to work. On nine-days rest, Hughes was perfect through four innings, and he was two pitches away from a great outing.
“I threw my fastball or strikes early,” he said. “Got my breaking ball over when I needed it. Threw probably more changeups than I thrown this year. I was kind of just pitching. They were swinging early and I was able to kind of get through those first few innings pretty easily.”
Here’s Hughes after last night’s game.
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Blah, Blah, Blah….it is a LOSS, plain and simple.
“Blah, Blah, Blah….it is a LOSS, plain and simple”
Agreed. Some folks seem to making themselves feel better by applying style points to losses. No such thing as a good loss. Losing 4-3 is every bit as bad 10-3.
I liked the way he pitched. Best I’ve seen him utilize all 4 pitches this season. Made two mistakes that cost him the game. I was disappointed by that but very encouraged by the rest of his outing.
@ this point, I’ll take the wild card.
Rather have Twins in a 5-game series than the Rangers, even with being allowed to choose the format of the series.
fat head michael kay jinxed phil when he said he was “perfect” after 4 innings. singleton and leiter would’ve been fine for those 3 games. does anyone at YES listen to the broadcasts to determine how annoying and untalented michael kay is?
Bill D,
I don’t think anyone would agree that losses count any different…but if you want to look beyond the boxscore and consider how the boxscore was achieved and how that could affect future performance then I think that’s fine to do. Hughes pitched as well as he has all season to everyone but one hitter…
No moral victories in pro sports.
The bottom line is, he got beat by the same mistakes that have beaten him all year. Poorly located fastballs for home runs with two outs.
Hopefully, he will learn.
However, last night he didn’t and it cost them the game.
They have scored a ton of runs in his starts this year.
Sometimes though, you have to win a 3-2 game.
Those are the kind of games you will have in the post-season.
They have to find a way to win those games again.
Bill D September 16th, 2010 at 11:36 am
“Blah, Blah, Blah….it is a LOSS, plain and simple”
Agreed. Some folks seem to making themselves feel better by applying style points to losses. No such thing as a good loss. Losing 4-3 is every bit as bad 10-3.
*****************************
Wait but isn’t that what all of the “Annointed Ones” on this blog have been preaching all year?
“Its only April (Or May or June or July or August) they’re entitled to a stinker..”
“Its a 162 game season, they will have streaks like this, it happens”
“they still have the best record in baseball”
“you don’t know anything about baseball if you think they should win all the close ones”
“phil hughes is still just learning”
“lets tip our caps to (fill in the scrub minor league pitcher of the week here)”
If the yankees would have won just FIVE of those “don’t worry” games the last 5 months folks on here wouldn’t be so panicked at this point..
Sometimes though, all it takes is one hitter.
He’s been giving up 2 out runs all year.
Especially 2 out home runs.
Yes, he mixed in his pitches more. That’s a positive.
The bottom line is though, he got beat twice by a .200 hitter with poorly located fastballs. That’s unacceptable.
With great talent comes high expectations.
He has great talent. He needs to have better results.
Agreed Blake. I thought Hughes threw very well. I’m talking more about the “If not for a couple hits here or there, we win 3-4 of these games” crowd.
personally I think the bottom 1/3 of the lineup cost them the game more than Hughes did. They had several chances to knock Shields out of that game early and couldn’t get it done because the rally was killed….Hughes made two very bad pitches last night….he also made a lot of very good ones and deserved a better fate IMO…doesn’t matter now have to learn and move on.
I understand the high expectations for Hughes but he had a good start last night. Winning and losing isn’t all about the pitcher.
““I think that’s all part of the learning process, learning to close out innings,” Joe Girardi said. “… He’ll bounce back. It’s tough. It’s an important game and he pitched extremely well, and you make a few mistakes and get beat. We understand that’s part of the game, and I liked the way he pitched.”
Joe. It is a learning process. But he didn’t just make a few mistakes.
He made the “same” mistake. Twice. To the very same batter. In identical situations.
You might think that’s acceptable but some of us don’t agree.
A little too much AJ Bustnett there.
The stuff was good but the concentration and execution weren’t.
It’s all good though because Phil’s gonna throw a shutout next time.
Right Phil ?
Baseball doesn’t work like that.
Games in April aren’t as important as games in September.
Not every game over a 162 game season is important.
Plus, this team got off to a great start this year.
The issue isn’t their start. It’s how they are playing in September.
The reality is, Phil Hughes is “learning”. That’s how it is with young pitchers.
The more accurate assessment would be that if AJ Burnett didn’t fall off a cliff as a pitcher, perhaps they wouldn’t need Hughes to pitch beyond his years and experience in September.
The Yanks will find a way to win close games.
When they get their offense back.
Right now, the Yank lineup is not the lineup predicted pre-season to win the AL East. How many times were Kearns and Colin Curtis in positions to drive in runs? Don’t you think the Yanks’ chances of getting the runs in would have been greater if it were Swisher and Gardner having the opportunity?
Of course they would.
Hughes did not pitch badly yesterday. He lost a 4-3 game for crying out loud. There’s not some “moral character” store you shop at so you don’t give up the second home run. It was just the way the cookie crumbled.
The Sox are 6 – I repeat 6 – games back in the loss column with 16 to play. The Sox have their own problems. They are going to lose games too. It is absurd to worry about them.
The Yank post-season team won’t be the team currently playing. It will be the team we thought it would be April 1st, but better because we didn’t think Gardner and Swisher would be this good.
I’ll take Hughes’ start yesterday in a playoff game.
It is going to be OK.
Dan Johnson had 4 home runs before last night’s game. 4!!
Hughes and Burnett have both suffered from an inability to put guys away in 0-2 and 1-2 counts.
0-2 counts turning to 3-2 not only end up being hits and extend innings, but constantly result in high pitch counts.
I’ll never understand the term “wasting a pitch”. Just because you are ahead 0-2 or 1-2 doesn’t mean you throw a ball so far outside the strikezone that it’s not even a consideration to swing.
I love Hughes and I think he will be a GREAT pitcher, but watching this, with each and every start, gets very frustrating.
This team is a mess right now and unless they generate some sort of momentum, especially with Swish/Gardy/Pettitte back, it will be an early exit from the postseason this year.
Also….(and ill admit, this is no excuse) but if you watch those ABs from the Hrs…the first one never should have been hit because he struck him out and on the second he at least could have been ahead 1-2 and you could argue all 3 pitches were strikes….again that doesn’t matter or change the poor location of the following pitches but, you get different calls there and you also get a different outcome in the ballgame. I know that sounded kinda whiny…
SJ-
“The bottom line is though, he got beat twice by a .200 hitter with poorly located fastballs. That’s unacceptable.
With great talent comes high expectations.
He has great talent. He needs to have better results.”
Again I find myself in total agreement. That’s the bottom line.
Concentration and execution. The stuff is there.
The loss last night was a difficult one. But the overwhelming reason why they lost was due to the continued ineptitude of the offense, especially with men on base.
The pitcher has no control over that. The Yankees left around 20 men on base last night. That is staggering.
James Shields made far more mistakes last night than Hughes did. It wasn’t even comparable. The Yankees squandered those mistakes.
A loss is a loss. That’s the outcome and in the pennant drive that’s what clearly matters most.
But the process of how games are played does matter because it’s the process that is often most generalizable. This is especially true of one run games. There is a big difference between losing by 5 runs and losing by one. One run games have a completely different set of probabilities involved. On the whole one run games are going to tend to break down in a 50/50 fashion over time.
I was very encouraged by the process through which Hughes pitched. And the reason why I was encouraged wasn’t as some kind of “moral victory” for a young pitcher. What we saw from Hughes last night was encouraging because it bodes very well for how he can pitch in the post season this year.
Hughes mixed his pitches and pitched last night as well as he has in his career as a starter. He was a true four pitch pitcher and for the most part the Rays weren’t able to sit on his fastball. He made two mistakes that cost him leads. But the overall way he pitched is the way he’ll need to pitch in order to maximize the Yankee’s chances for winning the world series this year.
“He’s been giving up 2 out runs all year.”
.288 BAA, .830 OPS against, 10 homers allowed with 2 outs
.216 BAA, .665 OPS against, 8 homers allowed with 1 out
.244 BAA, .649 OPS against, 6 homers allowed with no outs.
He does have to grow into a finisher.
4 runs in 6 innings isn’t a good start. It’s ok.
Making the same mistake to the same hitter in the game isn’t good, no matter how you spin it.
The talent is there. Everybody can see it.
However, the mistakes have to get cleaned up.
He’s had difficulty with that this year and it’s an area in which he has to improve.
The sooner the better.
Could one suggest that Hughes lacks focus or is overcome by nerves during clutch/shutdown situations?
Not saying this is entirely true, but when he became the 8th inning guy last year, the team was cruising and there really wasn’t any pressure on this team during the 2nd half of the year. They were a division/playoff lock. Then when the playoffs started, Hughes was not great at all.
Then there’s this year’s All Star Game. Then last night.
Just something to think about.
“Dan Johnson had 4 home runs before last night’s game. 4!!”
Were they all off of Papelbon??
Making the same mistake to the same below-average hitter twice in the same game is not acceptable, I agree.
It is also unacceptable to leave 21 men on base. Actually it’s absolutely ridiculous. Shields should have been out of that game by the third or fourth inning.
Do you think he’s looking for too many K’s?
I think some young pitchers just fall in love with strikeouts.
And strike outs are sexy but as we all know, when it comes to sex we often rely on the advice of the wrong head.
I used to think that was Joba’s problem last season when he would get 2 strikes on a guy and then just basically throw sliders until the batter walked.
And to those of you who say the offense didn’t do it’s job.
How can anybody disagree.
They left more runners on base than dogs have fleas.
No one is excusing them either.
Let’s just hope that the full-strength team can do better. A lot better.
They haven’t hit well on the road for most of the season.
They haven’t hit on the road for most of the second half of the season with a full, or mostly full, lineup.
The odds they will all of a sudden hit on the road now? Slim.
This thing is going to be decided by pitching.
In particular, starting pitching.
Meaning, they have little or no margin for error.
May not be fair or right but, that’s how it’s shaking out this year.
4 runs in 6 innings isn’t a good start. It’s ok.
—
We both know you can’t just read the box score and decide if a player had a good game or a bad game. What I saw was Phil Hughes making a lot of good pitches, mixing in a lot of offspeed stuff. I also saw him throw two bad fastballs. In my opinion it was a good start but whatever, doesn’t matter because the Yanks still lost. The bottom line is they have to win ballgames. Swisher and Gardner are almost back, Pettitte is back this weekend. I think the Yanks are just fine.
“Games in April aren’t as important as games in September. ”
This is true in some ways and not true in other important ways.
And I think this is a particular crucial point for this yankee team due to the extreme distribution of performance by Mark Teixeira.
If you go with the argument that September games matter more than April, even though they all count equally in deciding the record of who wins, then Mark Teixeira gets an enormous free pass. And I don’t see how you can give a guy who was brought in as a foundational piece for the franchise, a guy you’re paying $23M to a free pass. But in many ways Tex has gotten just that – a free pass.
Tex for 2 1/2 months was one of the single worst position players in baseball. He cost the team a lot of games. Games that they can’t fully make up for later on.
It’s unfortunate that he has the toe injury now – but that just heightens the problem of how unevenly his production is distributed over the season. Because he produces so little at the start of the season, his overall value was always going to be highly at risk for injury later on. If he happens to get hurt the second half then his aggregate production isn’t going to be what you’d hope.
This team is massively struggling at the plate. Mark Teixeira should be the player who takes it upon himself to win them games with his bat.
And not only did that not happen for the first part of the season it’s now not happening to end the season.
What stands out from Yankees Rays Matchup over the season and the last 3 days……
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-yo.....ys-matchup
OK. Today looks like a good day to vent.
So let’s play throw the player under the bus.
I’ll start.
Austin Kearns your under the rear tires.
CB has Tex.
Who wants to go next ?
I don’t really think games in September matter any more than April or any other month. They would if the managers changed the way they manage but for the most part it seems like Girardi is pretty steady. He does the same things now as he did back in April. A win is a win, a loss is a loss. Maybe I’m missing a key point here but I don’t see the difference.
“Could one suggest that Hughes lacks focus or is overcome by nerves during clutch/shutdown situations?”
He’s 3-8 with a 5.32 ERA when the Yankees score 5 or fewer runs (0-3 when 2 or fewer, 3-5 when they score 3-5).
He’s 13-0 with a 3.52 ERA when the Yankees score 6 or more.
Tells me one thing and suggests another:
1) Tells me he rarely gets blasted off the mound. Few, if any, Burnettish 3 IP, 7 ER type starts.
2) Suggests that maybe he does get a little tight when the Yankees don’t score a lot of runs for him.
Pretty small sample sizes and you do have to account for growing pains with one at Hughes’ age. As he gets more experience, he’ll likely fare better in low scoring games.
Who wants to go next ?
—
Derek Jeter of course
I thought for sure that Girardi would pull Phil after Matt Joyce singled with 2 outs in the 7th inning and not set him up to get beat again with the possibility of another Dan Johnson HR. Joba was warmed up and ready and maybe Johnson wouldn’t have got around on a 95+ MPH fastball and Phil being the pitcher of record with his 17th win.
It’s in the books now.
The Yankees are better than the Rays…they have better players. If they play like they are capable then they will be going to the WS to face the Braves…(ok probably the Phillies again).
Blake-
Sorry about the Braves and Bobby.
I knew you were pulling for them.
I think the consensus would be that 2 out of 3 this weekend is a good place to start in getting the ball rolling in New York’s favor again. Especially again on the road and against what is a very very hot Birds team. With that said lets not all freak out if AJ loses on Friday. We come back with two stellar lefty’s to follow to get the two wins.
The Yankees ALWAYS have a better team than the Rays and everybody else. $213M buys a great roster…on paper.
I think ARod said it right, they lost quite a few of their past 10 games by 2 or fewer runs. If they could have come up with a timely hit any of the times the bases were loaded, they could have won those games. Yes, it is not acceptable for Hughes to make 2 mistakes to a crappy hitter who belongs in the minors still. The guy strikes out looking more often than Gardner. I still think Phil did a lot better than he has been doing and making 2-2 out mistakes sucks but its better than he has been.
MTU,
They stink right now…still might sneak in there via the WC but they really have to start hitting.
It’s not just throwing players under the bus. It’s trying to understand why the team is in the position it’s in now.
I guess you could just continue piling on the 24 year old pitcher because he made two mistakes in a game last night.
For example, it’s been repeated over and over how this team performs differently at home vs. on the road. So why is that? The only way that the teams’ offensive performance can vary so greatly between home vs. road is if the performance of the players varies greatly.
Teixeira has a .980 OPS at home this season. He has a .734 OPS on the road. That’s a .250 point difference. That is massive. It is the largest on the club I believe.
Posada has a large home road split as well. Jeter does as well. Alex does also, so it’s far from Tex alone.
But he’s the one superstar player who is in his prime. He’s their #3 hitter. As Posada, Jeter and Alex age Tex becomes an enormously important player for them. And during a time when the team has been playing awful baseball he’s hitting .200 with no home runs. It is very difficult to win when your #3 hitter isn’t producing. And this just bookends the start to his season where he literally was playing below replacement level and cost the teams games.
Bill D,
Thanks for somewhat proving my point.
It does appear he’s a little more tight and too fine when the game is close. Those are pretty bad stats in “close games.”
I’ll be interested to see how he performs (if they make it) in the playoffs.
Blake-
Since we’re friends I hope they do it then.
By the way, after last night’s game I could use a stiff drink.
How’s the hills project going ? Is anything available for immediate consumption ?
This seems like a great time to break out the “good stuff”.
Its not just Tex though.
Derek Jeter hasn’t hit for most of the season, and for three months, he was among the worst offensive players in baseball.
That problem is magnified by the fact he has been hitting at the top of the order all year and hasn’t been hitting.
When you think about it, aside from Gardner, Swisher and Cano, the entire offense has been down for most of the season.
Its why the belief the offense will “find it”is misplaced, IMO.
They haven’t really “found it” all year.
Its an inconsistent, sporadic offense that has had long periods of complete futility with RISP.
They are in one of those long funks again and they aren’t showing any signs of breaking out of it soon.
Its why, fair or not, the Yankees fate the rest of the way is going to be decided by pitching, particularly starting pitching, and not offense.
Unfair? Perhaps but, that’s the way its shaking out this year with so many regulars having down years.
CB-
It was just a joke. Sorry if I pushed the wrong button. I really wasn’t trying to imply anything.
Just trying to lighten things up a bit. that’s all.
All I hear from Girardi are rationalizations and excuses. The same excuses he has made all year while he was giving away games in June, July and August with absurd lineups, resting pro athletes in their prime and getting out managed by other managers.
I could give a hundred examples – here is a recent one. Granderson the other night in the ninth up 2-0 against a right-hander that the stats say has never thrown anything but a fastball on a 2-0 count. Never. So what happens? Girardi has him bunt, gives the out away and we lose.
If a team tanks in a pennant race when it’s all on the line, not just one player, doesn’t the boss get held accountable? If this comes down to a one game playoff, I would fully expect Girardi to pull Sabathia from a tie game in the 7th due to pitch count. I absolutely believe that.
CB says:
September 16, 2010 at 12:02 pm
“Games in April aren’t as important as games in September. ”
This is true in some ways and not true in other important ways.
And I think this is a particular crucial point for this yankee team due to the extreme distribution of performance by Mark Teixeira.
If you go with the argument that September games matter more than April, even though they all count equally in deciding the record of who wins, then Mark Teixeira gets an enormous free pass. And I don’t see how you can give a guy who was brought in as a foundational piece for the franchise, a guy you’re paying $23M to a free pass. But in many ways Tex has gotten just that – a free pass.
Tex for 2 1/2 months was one of the single worst position players in baseball. He cost the team a lot of games. Games that they can’t fully make up for later on.
It’s unfortunate that he has the toe injury now – but that just heightens the problem of how unevenly his production is distributed over the season. Because he produces so little at the start of the season, his overall value was always going to be highly at risk for injury later on. If he happens to get hurt the second half then his aggregate production isn’t going to be what you’d hope.
This team is massively struggling at the plate. Mark Teixeira should be the player who takes it upon himself to win them games with his bat.
And not only did that not happen for the first part of the season it’s now not happening to end the season
—–
I agree that Tex shouldn’t get away with having a horrible April and this year it extended to july, but I think where he earns his money is his defensive skills. He saves so many runs because of how excellent he is at first base. Luckily for him, other people stepped it up early in the season to make up for his lack of hitting. Now is his time to step it up.
What I don’t agree with is that he is the worst position player. At least for the contending teams I’d say the worst position player is Carlos Pena, he has a BA under .210 or really close. He plays pretty much every day. I think his only hit the other night was that home run.
CB,
Very true and that’s another reason why Montero may be so vital to this team in the future given that Arod is aging and the swing concerns and inconsistency that Teixera can show. Teixera is a great player but is also one that carries risk of an early decline IMO because of his swing.
None of that matters this year though…he’s still in his prime and they need him to hit.
“And during a time when the team has been playing awful baseball he’s hitting .200 with no home runs”
Little hard to believe this stretch can be attributed solely to a busted pinky toe, isn’t it? Probably doesn’t help much. I view that as a ding rather than an injury, and I don’t see how it would zap him of his power (no homers, 2 doubles in his 65 PA’s in September).
This team does remind me of the 2000 team in the sense that they are playing horribly in September (like that team did) with a lot of guys having down years at the plate.
The difference is, that team found a way to cobble wins together in the post-season with solid pitching, clutch hitting, and a little luck.
Its looking like that’s going to have to be the formula with this group if they are to make a deep October run.
“Its not just Tex though.”
I completely agree and I’m not trying to pin the mess of the offense on him. At the beginning of the season when he struggled I was confident that he would come out of it and never wanted him moved from the #3 spot, benched, etc.
Jeter has been awful. No question. His drop off in production has been massive. And that has been as widely discusses as it’s possible to discuss a subject on this blog.
Posada has been hurt. Alex has had a down year and has been hurt.
But those players are no longer equivalent. Only one is in the prime of his career.
Part of why this offense is so sporadic is because the player who should be leading the offense is himself relatively sporadic.
It’s a material issue in the way this offense functions.
MTU,
I agree….blackberry, rasberry, or straight?
The dumping on Phil is a bit much. Yes, he has things to work on. But he went into ST fighting to be the 5th starter. Now he gets crucified when he pitches an average game against a tough team for first place on the road. Hughes is good and will get even better. He’s not CC…but on the other hand, he’s certainly carried his weight.
Strange that he seems to tighten up in close games after he did so well in high leverage spots coming out of the bullpen last year.
Bill-
It could be worse than that.
He may also have a hangnail.
Blake-
Straight. Full strength. No half measures.
“What I don’t agree with is that he is the worst position player.”
For clarification I was only referring to Tex’s status for the first 2 months of this season. For those two months he really was one of the worst everyday players in baseball.
As expected that didn’t last and his overall production is now much more in line with what you’d hope. He’s been much, much better than Carlos Pena.
In aggregate Tex has had a solid season but it’s also going to be one of the poorer seasons he’s had as a professional since he was a rookie.
MTU,
A beat down of the O’s tomorrow would be even better medicine.
Games in April count just as much as games in September. That’s simple math. There is no question that Teixeira’s abysmal first third of the season cost us numerous games and there is no way his defensive prowess was an equalizer. There was no more annoying comment to me this season than “look at the back of my baseball card”.
To be fair, throw in Cashman’s handy work as well. Park, Winn, Granderson, Vazquez and Nick the Sick. How many games did those “stellar” acquisitions cost us earlier?
Blake-
I couldn’t agree more. Hope the Yankees turn into a buzzsaw and anyone who gets in their way turns into sawdust.
Lost amidst everything else from last night….Joba looked good.
“Little hard to believe this stretch can be attributed solely to a busted pinky toe, isn’t it?”
I tend to agree, assuming that Tex has an “average” kind of fracture in his toe. It’s definitely not helping but overall I just think he’s fallen into another one of his streaky funks where the timing of his swing is off.
He’s still drawing walks and getting on base but he’s not producing runs by getting hits or hitting for power.
I also don’t like the way his swing looks now with respect to post season play.
He is going to see one change up and slow curve after another after another on the outside edge in the post season.
I really hope he snaps out of this and goes on one of those streaks where he’s out of his mind because the team desperately needs his production. And they’ll need it in the playoffs because it’s unclear what you’re going to get from Jeter, Posada and even Swisher and Gardner due to injury.
Blake-
He seems to be thriving in a less stressful role.
Wood, D-Rob, and Joba are a nasty combo.
And Logan is death to lefties.
What I cannot understand is why with that shift they employ on Teixiera, he doesn’t drop a couple down the third base line. I know that isn’t what he is paid to do, but after a few times that strategy will disappear and right field will open up again. Maybe I am missing something, if so please help.
Blake,
Absolutely. Joba looked great in terms of velocity, offspeed pitches and repeating his delivery smoothly.
I’ve been impressed with him lately.
“Games in April aren’t as important as games in September.
Not every game over a 162 game season is important.”
that might be the dumbest thing i have read on this blog to date.
“What I cannot understand is why with that shift they employ on Teixiera, he doesn’t drop a couple down the third base line. ”
Because shifts largely only impact ground balls and softer line drives.
Tex’s entire swing is designed to hit the ball in the air with loft. If he gets the ball in the air the shift is irrelevant.
The bigger issue with the shift, etc. is how he handles pitches on the outside half. He tries to pull those pitches and over power them with sheer force. It’s the pitching on the outside edge which makes the shift effective.
The Rays set things up to try to get Tex to pull outside pitches. The defense is a function of the way they pitch him and his tendencies as a hitter.
Yet, the Yanks still lead in runs scored per game by a significant margin.
Yes, much of that is due to the favorable hitting environment in Yankee Stadium. However, the Yanks are scoring more runs per game ON THE ROAD than the Rays are scoring per game AT HOME.
The Yank offense remains very potent. But two of the best offensive players all year are not in the lineup right now. Repeat after me, IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.
What is really important is run differential and, if you want to be more sophisticated about it, the simple rating system including park factors over at Baseball Reference. The Yanks lead the majors, or are tied with Tampa depending on which you look at, and significantly ahead of everyone else.
You are never as bad as you look when you are losing. Especially, when you are losing without two of your top hitters and your second best pitcher.
The bottom line is we wouldn’t be analyzing the pitching if the offense did the whole part of its job…not just getting on base but actually scoring some of those runners. Hughes can be criticized for making the same mistake to the same hitter twice. But the fact remains that we had ample opportunities to be far enough ahead for those mistakes not to matter. We left 10 runners on base compared to the Rays’ one. Shields is not that good a pitcher. If the Yanks had been firing on all cylinders, he would have been out of the game by the third or fourth inning. But, unfortunately, it seemed like the awful Austin Kearns was up at the plate in every big situation. I thought we might have turned the corner after Tuesday night’s win. Instead, we fell back into the same mistakes as our previous nine games. I know it’s an old chestnut but Matsui and Damon were clutch hitters and the guys that are in their spots now are not in the same class. Kearns, Curtis (substitute Nunez, Golson, Pena or whoever you like) and Jeter give the pitcher a chance to take a deep breath and regroup. The Yankee batting lineup is no longer circular so if ARod, Tex and Cano aren’t hitting, we’re in trouble. There’s no way to sugarcoat it. This team is in a massive slump and if they don’t snap out of it in Baltimore, those last three game at Fenway could actually take on much great significance than we could ever have imagined.
Joba did look very good yesterday as he did in his appearance prior.
His fastball has been very overpowering. Nice downwards plane on it again. If he consistently throws his fastball like that, establishes that fastball and then pitches off of it he’ll be very successful.
But with him it’s about what his fastball is going to look like on a given night and how much he’s willing to establish it.
The talent is still in there somewhere.
its nearly impossible for Teixera to hit the ball the opposite way on ground with his swing….especially from the left side….
Thanks CB.
Phil did fine last night and has been vary good all year. He is supposed to be the #4 or #5 starter on a team with great Vets. Andy’s been hurt, AJ & JV have bee sub par and the Yanks need 2 of them to step farward.
The O has been wildly inconsitant even though the numbers are there. Jeter will score 100 and drive in 70 in his worste year, Arod will have 120rbis, Tex is leading the league in runs after stinking for the first 2 months. They can score runs for sure.
The Yanks do have the best team on paper and for most of the year in the standings. They need to get all cylinders firing if the are going to make a run at the WS. Joe needs to flip the switch now!
“The Yank offense remains very potent. But two of the best offensive players all year are not in the lineup right now. Repeat after me, IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.”
Agreed. And the reason why this has been a particularly significant problem is because during this stretch the club hasn’t hit many home runs but has gotten men on base.
Tex is only hitting around .210 for September but he’s getting on base at a .370 clip.
But because they aren’t hitting home runs or hitting for a lot of power in terms of extra base hits, they aren’t clearing the runner that get on base early in the line up.
That means that men get on base but the line up cycles through without clearing. In turn that means that the Kearns, Curtis, and Cervelli keep coming up with men on base and in scoring position.
And that’s been a big part of the limited offensive production over the past 10 games. It’s a huge reason why they have lost so many close/ 1 run games.
wave,
I agree and I don’t think its outrageous to suggest that had the Yankees had Gardner and Swisher in Tampa then they may have one one of those games they lost…..maybe both.
I think at this time of year, the team is what it is.
It was built on starting pitching this season. They were dominant when the starters were solid. That even covered up for the poor year half the regulars were having at the plate.
When Andy got hurt, the starters fell apart.
Burnett and Vazquez became useless. Hughes struggled. The #5 guy in the rotation became a crapshoot.
Starters innings, aside from CC, began to dwindle, and the team became more of an at or near .500 team than the team they were prior to Andy’s injury.
They don’t hit on the road. That’s not changing this weekend or the rest of the way. They are just going to have to make due.
If 4-6 guys in the everyday lineup continue to slump, they won’t hit much at home either.
Its why I believe their fortunes rise and fall with the pitching staff.
CC and Andy have to be great. Not good, great. Unfair to Andy certainly after missing so much time but, that’s how its shaking out.
Whomever the other 3 guys in the rotation are, they all have to be on short leashes. Two guys in the first, get the pen up. If they score, pull them. They don’t have the offense this year to be put in early 3-5 run holes by the starters and come back.
That’s why no starter aside from Sabathia and Pettitte should be on a long leash the rest of the way.
Its not about their feelings. Its about winning. That trumps their feelings.
If you need to bring up more pitchers to cover their short, ineffective starts, do it.
For all the money the Yankees spend, its ridiculous to not have 16-18 pitchers in the bullpen ready to go in September.
There is a formula to survive this and win. The 2000 team is the blueprint.
Will they follow it? That remains to be seen.
I don’t believe Hughes “made the same mistake twice”. The first pitch Johnson hit was a pretty good pitch. I have looked at gameday and watched the video several time. It was a fastball, down and in, AND WHERE POSADA CALLED FOR IT.
The pitch that gave up the second home run does look like a mistake. Posada set up low and away, and the pitch was up and found the middle of the plate.
It was a shame, but Hughes is catching too much grief here for what was generall a well pitched game and one he certainly gave the Yanks a chance to win.
CB
After reading your post again, I did see that you referred only to the first 2 months of the season. In that regard, he probably was the worst. He definitely did not help them out any. The only reason I think he got a free pass is because everyone else was picking up the team. Now its time for him to step it up.
“Posada has a large home road split as well. Jeter does as well. Alex does also, so it?s far from Tex alone.”
I just looked at all their numbers.
Something that jumped out at me- in real numbers (# of hits, HR, RBI, BB, Ks, etc) Alex’s home and road splits are almost identical and slightly better on the road but he has 60 less ABs at home.
Timing of the DL stint contributed to that but it’s odd for a starter to have such a big difference between home and road ABs.
Both those pitches to Johnson wound up in the same spot. But in no way did Hughes make the same pitching mistake twice. The second pitch – as Hughes said – was supposed to be on the outside corner and low. Unfortunately he yanked it.
The first pitch was also likely a mistake in location though not as large as the second.
The first pitch was supposed to be inside. But catchers never want pitches to be low and in on LH hitters and pitchers don’t want to throw there as that’s the sweet spot for so many LH hitters.
I’d have to think that the first home run pitch was supposed to bust him in but higher so that it got in on his hands.
It’s a great pitch – a pitch many young pitchers shy away from however because as a RH pitcher if you miss in location inside to a LH hitter with power it’s going to get hit a long way.
But Hughes was trying to be aggressive and establish himself inside. He just made mistakes in location.
“It was a shame, but Hughes is catching too much grief here for what was generall a well pitched game and one he certainly gave the Yanks a chance to win.”
He did give the Yankees the chance to win, but sooner or later HE’s going to have to win one for the Yankees when the offense doesn’t has it. He’s won one game in which the Yankees scored less than 5 runs.
CB-
I don’t think both pitches were in the same spot. Gameday doesn’t show it that way, and the videos don’t either, at least IMO.
On the first pitch, the ball is definitely in. It probably caught a little more of the plate than it should have, but it was in and very close to hitting Posada’s target.
The second pitch is down the middle of the plate. About the same height as the first, but relatively up because Posada was setting up low and away.
The problem isn’t a lack of hitting on the road.
Its a lack of clutch hitting.
Logistically, its impossible to strand so many batters on base without getting hits. They just can’t seem to find the big hit.
And I have no explanation for that whatsoever
As with all stats, they are misleading.
When you hit is as important, perhaps moreso, than your overall numbers.
Their second half numbers, particularly on the road, are in steep decline. Especially with RISP.
In September? They are pathetic.
Despite Gardner and Swisher being out, this is a lineup that still has Jeter, Granderson, Tex, Arod, Cano, and Posada in it.
You mean to tell me those six guys can’t hit unless Nick Swisher and Brett Gardner play?
If that’s the case, those 6 guys are grossly overpaid and the Yankees aren’t paying Gardner and Swisher nearly enough money.
Championship teams find ways to overcome injuries and win close games.
As far as Gardner and Swisher are concerned…….
One guy has a thumb that will need surgery in the off-season and a bad wrist.
Another has a bad knee. Both needed cortizone shots just to try and play.
Perhaps they will come back, get hot, and life will be just dandy.
They could also be completely ineffective due to their injuries, making it incumbant on the other 7 guys in the lineup to produce.
Its why I believe they better pitch well because this team is showing no signs of hitting with any level of consistency in clutch situations.
In other words, they picked a bad month to go into another collective hitting slump.
“He did give the Yankees the chance to win, but sooner or later HE’s going to have to win one for the Yankees when the offense doesn’t has it.”
I guess I don’t agree. All I want from Hughes in the post-season is to give the Yanks a chance to win.
“Posada has a large home road split as well. Jeter does as well. Alex does also, so it?s far from Tex alone”
Yankees as a whole have pretty ridiculous splits. They type many of us have poked fun at the Red Sox for havng over the years. It’s that stark. They’ve scored in 100 more runs at home in only 2 more games. Their team OPS is nearly 100 points higher at home than on the road. It’s one of the big differences between this year’s team and the 2009 Yankees, who were virtually identical at home and on the road, and why HFA is a little bigger deal this time around.
“Despite Gardner and Swisher being out, this is a lineup that still has Jeter, Granderson, Tex, Arod, Cano, and Posada in it.
You mean to tell me those six guys can’t hit unless Nick Swisher and Brett Gardner play?”
I mean to tell you those guys aren’t as effective without Swish and Gardner.
Plus, Cano and Tex are slumping. I agree it would be a good thing if they started hitting.
Jeter I don’t count one way or the other, he hasn’t hit very well most of the year.
Hughes said after the game he was trying to get the fastball up and in to Johnson on the first HR and yanked it.
On the second HR, Hughes said the plan was to go low and away and got too much of the plate.
Location was the mistake on both pitches. Pitch selection was not.
I’m also tired of the moral victories.
Hughes may have pitched well last night, but when given the lead he, yet again, coughed it right up. The only starter on this team that can seem to pitch with any kind of a lead is CC.
The offense is pretty horrendous.
If Tex keeps this up he better hope the media really plays up his broken toe as this is a horrible close to a season. His book ends for this season are just awful offensively.
I’m starting to wonder if he’s not a guy who can carry a club, but only a guy who can hit when the other boppers in the lineup hit.
I don’t think he’s going to be our #3 hitter long term here, in fact I think after this season he may be a 4 or 5 since his offensive game is so streaky.
I still find it hard to accept that a lineup with Jeter, Cano, Granderson, Arod, Tex, Berkman and Posada couldn’t score more runs last night because Swisher and Gardner weren’t there.
What that is saying is that the core of this team cannot hit without a lineup 1-9 of all stars.
They should have won last night.
Girardi started this malaise with his “rest” nonsense.
Now because he played the earlier games limp, our starters may have to pitch us into the post season in the final week/weekend.
If they don’t wake up in Baltimore, and there is no guarantee they will, all the other games become much more important and then he has to put the pedal to metal to make up for the lousy managing and deployment of talent he’s been foisting upon this team for the past couple of weeks.
He should be tight and on the edge. His decision to coast last week was horrible and helped create the monster that this current stretch is.
They’ll make the post season, but this offense most likely won’t wake up and start hitting productive outs and hitting doubles and singles with men on base creating long innings.
We’re a Jason Giambi offense now. Walks and HR’s and nothing else to score runs.
Maybe Gardner helps remedy that…but if his wrist is no good and he can’t hit his way on base I don’t see how that helps.
Lot of question marks with 16 left to play.
If they pull into Baltimore with the same tired routine we’ve been seeing, they are going to get their clocks cleaned.
“Timing of the DL stint contributed to that but it’s odd for a starter to have such a big difference between home and road ABs.”
Part of the reason why that happened was because of the significant uneven distribution of home and road games the yankees played this season.
They played a disproportionate number of road games prior to the all star break. Alex was healthy for that period of time.
He got hurt however during the period of time when the yankees were “making up” the imbalance in their home/ road split from the first half.
This meant that he likely missed a disproportionate number of home games.
This is also part of why Tex’s home vs. road splits are so large. The Yankees hapenned to play a disproportionate number of road games when he happened to be in his terrible funk the first two months. They played a lot of road games then.
He’s gotten hot in the second half when they were playing more games at home.
I guess you can argue that the home games may have caused him to heat up but I think it’s more likely related to his frequent troubles to start a season.
Also – with Alex – the yankees have been so good at home this season that Alex probably lost a number of at bats because the yankees didn’t hit in the bottom of the ninth. Teixeira has 12 fewer plate appearances at home than on the road. So I’d guess at least 10-12 of those 60 fewer home plate appearances for Alex are due to not hitting in the bottom of the 9nth.
Is there a contest on “Who can make the longest post” I wasn’t made privvy to?
Look at this sick story of a Red Sox fan. What a sick guy.
http://www.thesunchronicle.com.....479133.txt
“Their second half numbers, particularly on the road, are in steep decline. Especially with RISP.”
Someone said Yankees went 21 innings- from Alex’s 8th inning hit in Texas on Saturday until Alex’s 3rd inning AB in Tampa on Tuesday- to get a hit w/RISP.
The problem is with Gardner and Swisher out, the lineup is different and even if those guys get on, the chances of Swisher and Gardner’s replacements being able to get them in is smaller.
But Tex has had enough opportunities and failed. It’s not enough to get on. I mean, even Kearns has had a hit or two with no one on. But then it’s Nunez, Pena, Cervelli who get the chance to knock him in. It’s the entire construction of the lineup without those two that affects the way the lineup can work.
Erica is right. They’re obviously able to hit. Just not get the ONE hit that scores the guys on base. Pressure? Guessing wrong?
It’s been a weird season, but up until this week they were on a pace for over 95 wins, possibly 100, right?
Just a lot of bad things converging at once. Been building up over time (since Andy went down, IMO), but coming together at once. As pieces are added back, it should help.
Frankly, since the day Javy Vazquez took the mound for the first time, nothing has gone exactly to plan.
Wave:
I guess we do disagree a little. Thing is, Hughes isn’t the #5 starter anymore. Granted, it’s by default, but he’s now the #3 guy. As such, he’s got a little more responsibility, a point that perhaps Girardi was trying to drive home by having try to pitch his way through the 7th inning last night. Might not be fair to him at this stage of his career, but that’s the way it is. He’s not a rookie anymore. He’s been around for most of 4 years and will be in his 3rd postseason. They may need him to win a game rather than giving the Yankees a chance to win it for him.
Pat
Jeter hit a 2 out double on sunday to score nunez from second. That I believe was their last clutch hit before tuesday.
“Yankees as a whole have pretty ridiculous splits. They type many of us have poked fun at the Red Sox for havng over the years. It’s that stark. ”
I’m concerned about it as well. It could be a chance occurrence but it could also indicate an offense that is slowing down and becoming less multi-dimensional.
They have become more dependent on hitting home runs to score. It’s easier for this left hand dominant line up to hit home runs at home.
Now that does not mean that they should be playing more “small ball.” What that means is that they needs more balanced hitters.
It’s a legitimate concern. They still have scored runs in aggregate in droves. But those aggregate runs produced don’t speak to some of the fault lines. I do think the offense has less fault tolerance in it now.
It’s not fair to the kid – but the Yankees really need Jesus Montero to be great. They need him to be able to take over the mantle of the offense from Alex over the next 2 years.
That Colin Cowhered guy on ESPN radio was just on talking about why teams can’t hit on the road.
Apparently, according to him, they can’t hit on the road because they are all out getting drunk and chasing skirts every night on the road and that’s the reason why road numbers go down. He was specifically talking about the Yankees and Rays.
He then said the Yankees were all so old, they were giving up at bats just to get the road trip over so they can get home quicker.
His next point of proof was how the Yankees and the Mets have good home records. He said the reason they both play better at home is that players coming into NYC and go wild for the their roadtrips there and unfit to play most nights.
So it’s not that the Yankees play better at home. It’s that opposing teams compromise themselves with alcohol, shopping and women and then can’t beat the Yankees.
He said in the post season that all goes out the window as the players no longer party like that on the road in the playoffs and are more focused.
This was his reasoning why Home Field Advantage is a myth since the post season is taken more seriously and players apparently keep it in their pants then.
G. Love September 16th, 2010 at 1:19 pm
That Colin Cowhered guy on ESPN radio was just on talking about why teams can?t hit on the road.
Apparently, according to him, they can?t hit on the road because they are all out getting drunk and chasing skirts every night on the road and that?s the reason why road numbers go down. He was specifically talking about the Yankees and Rays.
******************
I have no idea if this is true or not.
But just in case it is, I motion that we get chaparones for the Yankees.
Or wives must attend all road trips
“Jeter hit a 2 out double on sunday to score nunez from second. That I believe was their last clutch hit before tuesday.”
You’re right. That will teach me to check before I repeat what I read.
Erica in NY September 16th, 2010 at 1:10 pm
Is there a contest on “Who can make the longest post” I wasn’t made privvy to?
I think there are some very good posts on here on this national day of mourning for the Yankees. Right now, I’m feeling lower than a snake’s belly and I’m taking solace from hearing I’m not the only one.
hmmm you would think Miggy Cabrera would be a cautionary tale
enjoying reading the posts this afternoon…so much more informative than rants about umpires and Jeter’s integrity
Pat
It happens to me all the time. I keep up with the blog on my phone, normally in class, while walking or sitting at a red light. I only half read half of the comments that I read most of the time.
“Apparently, according to him, they can?t hit on the road because they are all out getting drunk and chasing skirts every night on the road and that?s the reason why road numbers go down. He was specifically talking about the Yankees and Rays.”
More likely they are out of their regular routines on the road rather than the drinks are stronger and there are more “skirts” to chase.
SJ your 12:50 post is way off.
pat,
I didn’t say I agreed with him. But he did claim he used to work for a AAA team in Vegas and when teams would come in on road trips they couldn’t hit or pitch to their capabilities because they were too busy enjoying Vegas. His AAA team had a tremendous advantage at home because of this.
I’d hate to think that was the way. That Yankee players were old and tired and giving up at bats just to get the road trip over with.
Or worse that they are out living it up late at night and not ready to play on the road.
Cowherd’s a blowhard and I only was listening because I was in the car, but boy did he think he knows the reason why teams struggle on the road and it wasn’t because they missed their dogs and their beds.
CB -
But every year we hear the same thing about the Yankees – too dependent on the HR, too dependent on the HR. This year I guess is no different. But that’s how they’re built. It seems like they’re trying to get more multi-dimensional, but when key parts of the offense are missing all through the season at one point or another (how many times did they have consecutive days with the planned lineup??) things just don’t mesh as well.
Personally, I think it was a tribute to this team that once they got first place, they held it for so long. They’ve been having difficulties all year and working through them. As I said before, all the “stuff” is converging at once and it happens to be at a late point in the season with virtually no recovery time available to them. They have to hit bottom and bounce back NOW.
Also, I’m not making excuses, and I don’t know enough about other teams’ schedules, and no matter what your schedule is, you have to play, but this year’s schedule was very, very flooky. Moreso than usual, I think. Lots of 2 or 4 game series, which almost always will end up in a split; no long homestands, but extended road trips. Short homestands surrounded by longer road trips. It seemed like until this one homestand this month (where they were winning and playing very well till Baltimore hit town), they weren’t able to get into a real groove. It just always felt like a grind from that standpoint all season.
Let me expound on my earlier statement of from the day Javy took the mound in April, things haven’t gone as planned. So, Javy has a rough beginning. Grandy starts out great – GW hit in Boston – then HE goes down and takes all summer to finally get it going (to his credit by asking for help). Johnson goes down (and while most of us expect him to be on the DL at least once this season, I’d venture to guess not too many people thought he’d play for less than 2 months and be totally lost); Posada up and down a couple of times; ARod up and down a couple of times; Tex down for a while; Gardner down a couple of times; Swish down a couple of times. It’s been a nightmare, and yet through it all (and I’m not even bringing AJ into this discussion), they managed to do what they had to do. I don’t see that stopping. I believe they will get through this bad patch. I do think they have just enough pitching to get through the first round of playoffs. And then we’ll see.
The hugest hit was Pettitte going down. And AJ not stepping up, not being able to. I’m sure he tried everything. He just couldn’t do it. Javy did put something together for a while, but then, just as quickly, it unraveled for him. Too much mileage on that arm. One year too late for the Yankees (or too soon?).
So that’s my take.
Sam old post game spin–call it what it is -another loss. He should be learning from his mistakes and he is not. Manager and coaches are too busy checking he stats books and not paying close attention to the pitcher. Offense needs a kick in the ass–Shields had two previous starts with a ton of runs allowed and is sporting close to a 5 ERA–and please anyone but Kearns in the line-up Friday. 7 strikeouts over the last two games and most with runners on base.
As I said last night, Phil is not ready to be what people want him to be. I don’t care how much talent he has – the kid is raw and he has a lot to work on in the offseason. I don’t even know if making bad pitches at bad times is something you can even work on.
That said, SJ, you are always telling me that my expectations are too high for him……..and now you are using the word “unacceptable” to describe what a 24 year old did? Are you now expecting him to pitch like the frontline starter you think he has the potential to be? If so, that’s not fair because he doesn’t have necessary equipment/experience to do that.
On the post game last night they were talking about how bad the hitting has been with risp and they said on the road trip the Yanks are 20 for 100 with risp. That’s unreal. They have to find a way to calm these guys down and hopefully the off day will help. Getting Swisher back asap will help also. I know one player doesn’t change the lineup but he and Cano are really the only 2 guys having very good guys.
“But every year we hear the same thing about the Yankees – too dependent on the HR, too dependent on the HR. This year I guess is no different.”
But usually that related to this stale notion that the yankees don’t play enough “small ball.” That’s not what I’m referring to.
The yankees offense has and should always be based on power hitting. But it also needs to be balanced.
Last year the yankees as a team hit .284 – second in baseball. This season they are hitting around .269 as a team – 7nth or so in baseball.
That’s why it’s not some age old debate about “small ball.” Compared to last year, this seasons team has fewer ways of beating the opposition. There are many reasons why that might be the case (Jeter collapsing in terms of batting average first and foremost) but it’s an issue.
They generally aren’t getting base hits at the same rate they did last season. They are still first in OBP however so they are drawing a ton of walks.
Without the hits though they aren’t as efficient turning those base runners into runs unless they hit home runs.
To me – that’s the issue of them becoming less multi-dimensional. It’s different than the generic complaint because the way the team is playing is different.
Again – it’s not like they are producing base hits at a poor rate – 7nth in baseball is far from bad. It’s just a drop off which has changed how they play.
All of this is heightened this season because the Rays are so good and run differential becomes even more important.
very good guys=very good years lol
Blake, the problem I have is that it’s just a continuation of what he’s done all year. If it was the pitch selection, then he and Jorge are not very smart. If it was the execution, then he hasn’t improved at all as the season has progressed. To me, the big positive from this season is that he’s stayed healthy. I can’t take much more out of the season than that because he’s pitched to close (if not over) a 5 and a half ERA in the last 20 or so starts.
G. Love.
Funny you mentioned them not having bad road trips cause they miss their dogs and beds. I follow David Price on Twitter and when the Rays were in Boston a week or so ago, Price posted a picture of his dog in the hotel. Thought it was pretty funny that he brought his dog with him on a road trip to Boston.
For Posada and Jeter, this was a road trip that wasn’t really a road trip because they both live in Tampa. Maybe they want these games to be over so they can go home and sleep in their own beds.
SJ, then why is it unacceptable that Phil made the mistake he did? If he’s still learning? You can’t have it both ways.
I agree that AJ and Javy’s failures have unfortunately placed a lot of pressure on Phil to be very good………..
“If it was the execution, then he hasn’t improved at all as the season has progressed. ”
At all. Ok.
I just don’t get how people are so prone to look at baseball in this black and white lens.
Two mistakes mean his execution over an entire year hasn’t improved “at all?”
That’s ridiculous.
He’s not where he’ll be a year from now. He’s still developing. That’s obvious. But the work remaining doesn’t mean that he hasn’t improved at all. Maybe he’s improved 10%? 20%?
I dont’ know how you can watch him pitch and think he hasn’t improve “at all.” The expectations of Yankee fans are crazy.
literally 2 bad pitches. the longoria single was off the end of the bat and the joyce hit was no big deal. 2 middle in pitches to lefties…
berkman DP, kearns total ineptness, killed the yanks, last night.
The only place Success comes before Work is in the dictionary…… Vince Lombardi.
The Yankees offense is going to have to start working together as a team, and valuing each at bat to help this team win.
Nobody is asking Hughes to be a front of the rotation starter.
However, it’s unacceptable to get beat by Dan Jonhson twice in the same game, in the same situation.
I don’t care where he is pitching, how old he is, or anything else, it’s unacceptable.
If he was pitching in A Ball instead of the Trop last night, I would be saying the same thing.
“If it was the execution, then he hasn’t improved at all as the season has progressed.”
——————————-
Betsy,
Throughout a game pitchers, even great pitchers, make many mistakes in execution. No pitcher can perfectly execute every pitch and even when they do execute sometimes the hitter comes through.
Last night it wasn’t so much that Hughes let down or made major mistakes. It just so happened that both times he made a mistake the same hitter was up at bat and it ended in the same result.
Contrast Hughes with Shields last night. Hughes threw much, much more well executed and high quality pitches than Shields last night. Yet, Shields only gave up 1 run because the Yankee hitters did not take advantage.
Johnson took advantage last night. When a pitcher is throwing great like Hughes was last night that is what you have to hope for. He slips up once or twice and you take advantage. Johnson did that and he really came through for the Rays.
How well a pitcher pitched does not always line up with the results. There are 2 parties involved here (3 if you count the defense).
Pull pitchers in the first inning after giving up 2 runs? Wow……….
Just look at how Hughes pitched to Longoria in that same inning as Johnson.
If you watch how he pitched to Longoria you can’t tell me he has not improved this season.
The only reason everyone is paying so much attention to how Hughes is pitching is because AJ and Vazquez have been so dreadful. If AJ was pitching well then Hughes pitching 7 innings and giving up 4 runs would be a good start. It’s the same thing with Gardner. If Jeter was having a good year than no one would pay attention to what Gardner is doing. Too much is being expected of these young kids because veterans aren’t doing their jobs.
Bill D, that’s hardly fair. 4 years? I don’t think so. He missed almost all of 2007 and 2008 and he was in the pen for most of 2009. Just how much development as a starter did you expect him to make?
Now he’s being called basically a choker……nice.
A long time ago, I remember Tom Seaver saying that fans think a pitcher can hit a spot the size of a dime over and over. He said that isn’t true. Seaver said good command is being able to put a ball within 6 inches of the target.
The essential criticism of Hughes’ peformance last night was that he was not perfect.
That’s true. He made two mistakes to the same hitter but otherwise dominated the Rays.
It’s true he wasn’t perfect.
But if the level of requirements to win a game is perfection from a starting pitcher you are simply not going to win many games as a team, especially when you are playing a team you’re tied for first with, a team that is on pace to win 100 games.
Hughes was not perfect. The offense is responsible for 90% of the reasons why they lost last nights game.
Perfections for a pitcher becomes a real issue when your offense is doing it’s best imitation of the 2010 Mariners.
CB, take a look at some of the posts here castigating Phil for choking the game away…….My comments are mild compared with what I’m seeing here. SJ said two completely different things in the span of a few minutes: that Phil’s “mistake” was unacceptable and that he’s still learning. Which is it?
CB, I think people (yes, including me, but not just me) are starting to wonder just how much potential he really has. You see people questioning his performance in close games and you see people questioning his smarts on the mound. I think that is part of what’s behind the comments here.
CB -
I see your point. But it’s not so much that the Yankees don’t have the right kind of players; to me it’s more of the players they have — too many of them not even coming close to their usual production. And Tex is just streaky. And who knew there’d be a shift on him too??????
And, they don’t seem to have the same HR production either this season. ARod’s down and Posada. Grandy hasn’t had what they hoped. Jeter, too. Though, Cano’s is up, right?
I don’t know.
It’s been a strange season, and if they can make it to the playoffs they should feel good about that. If they get there in first place, they should feel even better.
And then we see.
LGY, but Shields made the pitches when it counted; why is it only about how bad the Yankees were?
I don’t get why I have been killed for questioning Phil’s performance next year when the same people are killing him today.
“take a look at some of the posts here castigating Phil for choking the game away…….My comments are mild compared with what I’m seeing here. ”
Your comments were inaccurate. That’s all. The comments others are making don’t change the inaccuracy of your comments.
And I in particular followed up on your comment because it’s a particularly important point. To say a young pitcher in his first year in the rotation hasn’t improve “at all” is as damning a thing as one can say. In many ways it’s worse than calling him a “choker” which by the way I haven’t seen anyone say in this thread.
Finally, you yourself have been by far the vocal, most persistent and most negative of all of Hughes’ critiques this year. No one has been even close to as unfair with interpreting his season as you have given the hundreds of posts you’ve made on this subject. And this is an issue where context matters.
“Too much is being expected of these young kids because veterans aren?t doing their jobs.”
Winning teams get contributions from the “kids”.
Some of the “kids” are approaching or are in their prime and and some of the veterans are leaving theirs.
The “kids” need to be able to carry some of the load.
Also, then Phil shouldn’t start in the playoffs if he’s too prone to unacceptable mistakes………….
BTW, he is improving.
However, more than variety of his pitches, what has hurt him all year is allowing two out runs. Particularly home runs.
He has to clean up that part of his game.
When he does, he will be a top of the rotation starting pitcher.
CB, ok, I understand why you responded to my comments and that’s fair. No one, by the way, has used the word choker, but they’ve said he gets tight in close games. They’ve also said he blew the lead……….It’s just another way of saying choker.
Is it a damning statement that I said if he didn’t execute than he hasn’t improved? Maybe, but I’m not quite sure how he has improved since the beginning of the season. All I know is that I see a lot of posts questioning him, so clearly I am not in the minority anymore.
SJ, I agree with that…………..I don’t know if that’s a kid thing or not. I really think he needs a 2-seamer because boy, when he makes a mistake, the ball goes a long way. He gives up a ton of HRs…………that’s not an opinion, it’s the truth.
yo where’s that pat m dude, i thought he was like hughes old man or something. maybe he’s hiding from that betsy stalker chick like phil and sj should. dude hides after hughes pitches bad it seems, hell he hides when he pitches good too it seems.
“I think people (yes, including me, but not just me) are starting to wonder just how much potential he really has. ”
Yes. You’ve clearly stated on multiple occasions that you don’t see Hughes as having the potential to be an “ace.”
Your position on this subject is very well established.
Let’s see. Statements like the one you’ve made above strike me as wildly off base and typical of how people look at young pitcher incorrectly and impatiently and have little idea of what they’re looking at.
There’s no guarantees at this level of competition. But I’m much more confident that Hughes is going to be a dominant pitcher in this league now than I was in April. Will he be an ace? That’s difficult to project for any young pitcher. But given the tools I’ve seen and the way he pitches I think the probability of him being a front line guy is much higher now than it was to start the season.
But you’ve clearly disagree with that assessment as youv’e been particularly strident on this point.
Just read on si.com that the Rays lead the majors in scoring 34 percent of the runners who get on base. Did not mention what the Yanks’ percentage is. A good deal lower, obviously.
As to the offense, even fully healthy it’s been inconsistent – mostly because most of the lineup are having below average years. I think Tex is sort of getting a free-pass and I think it’s because of his D. There’s no question he’s brilliant defensively, but he has to hit. I don’t think he’s a great player, but he’s very good and he’s a huge cog in the lineup. The Yankees need him to step up and now.
“LGY, but Shields made the pitches when it counted; why is it only about how bad the Yankees were?”
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Shields didn’t make the pitches when it counted.
You are focused purely on the result instead of evaluating the complete sequence of events from the time the ball left Shields hand to the time the out was made.
The Yankees have several very, very poor at bats against Shields when it counted.
Take a look at how Joe Torre used Kenny Rogers in the playoffs in 1996.
In essence, he turned his starts into bullpen games.
IIRC, he had 3 or 4 post-season starts and didn’t last past the third inning in any of them. The Yankees won all of the post-season games he started.
Why? Torre made sure he didn’t get put in a position to pitch you out of the game.
That’s what Girardi is going to have to do with the starters not named Pettitte or Sabathia.
In the post-season, you do what you have to do to win the game.
It’s not about feelings or stats or what looks good.
CB, I expected you to be fairer than that. I said I question his real potential until I see how much progress he makes with his other pitches. This conversation was going well before I joined in……………so obviously Phil is a hot button topic with people other than myself.
I think it’s kind of a waste to analyze the team as it stands right now considering two of our best hitters on the year have been out (Swisher, Gardner) and one of our 3 best starters has been out (Pettitte). After this weekend they will all be back and the Yanks will roll over the competition. I still think the Yanks are going to end up winning the division and have home field advantage through the ALDS and ALCS. They are still the AL favorites to reach the world series IMO.
Home/away splits don’t really bother me, the Yanks will hit, they have the best offense in the league. The pitching for this team is really really good. I love the bullpen, especially now with Wood. The starters are going to get a huge boost with Andy coming back. I think a rotation of CC, Phil, Andy, A.J. is really solid. Burnett has looked pretty good over his last handful of starts. As inconsistent as he is, he’s a true competitor. I really think he’s going to step it up as we get closer to the playoffs and when we get into the playoffs.
Betsy:
I never Hughes a choker and agreed with most everyone’s assessment that he generally pitchd pretty well last night. But it’s a results oriented game, and the result last night wasn’t good enough.
In college basketball, you’ll often hear commentators and other experts say of freshmen players that “by March, he’s not a freshman anymore”. That’s to say that when the games become more important, the freshman has been thru the rigors of most of a full season, gotten into an established routine, and become subject of greater expectations. I’m sayin’ Hughes isn’t a freshman anymore. He’s knows what it is to be a big league pitcher. He’s been in the postseason twice. He’s going for a third time. It’s time to step it up.
SJ, that’s fine – and I agree it’s all about winning the game. How many long men are you going to have on this roster?
Betsy,
You seem to go from point A to point Z, skipping all the letters in between.
Making the mistake (at least the second one) to Johnson can be unacceptable and he can still be learning. They’re not mutually exclusive points. He’d already given up a HR to this guy. And it seems the second HR was given up because his approach was too similar to the first.
You know sometimes you learn more from your mistakes than from your successes. And sometimes a person needs to make the mistake multiple times to even realize it was a mistake. Or sometimes makes mistakes in trying to fix the mistakes. It’s a process. Just the fact that Hughes was successfully mixing in more of his pitches last night shows he’s beginning to incorporate all the little “lessons” he’s been getting from all his previous starts.
Starting like a house on fire, well, that was great. But his biggest growth has come after the struggles. And it can’t be about the “numbers.” Not yet. It’s about how he’s going about his business.
I remember Nolan Ryan coming up with the Mets. He was this phenom who could throw harder and faster than anyone. But he was a mess. No one could hit him. Because he was too busy walking everyone he didn’t strike out. Overtime, he harnassed his talent and the rest was history. Not saying Phil Hughes is anything close to Nolan Ryan – they’re different pitchers – but just that even if you have the raw talent, it takes time to take it to it’s finest.
In a way, last nights outing was the best of the season for Hughes with regards to predicting what he may do in tHe future. He showed things that he had yet to show this year. The end result wasnt good and he does still have issues finishing hitters and innings but their were positives from last night if you want to see them.
“Is it a damning statement that I said if he didn’t execute than he hasn’t improved? Maybe, but I’m not quite sure how he has improved since the beginning of the season.”
There’s no maybe about it. It is extremely damning. If he hasn’t improve his entire year was a waste and we should have no expectations for him to be any better next year.
If thats’ the case then the franchise would need to rethink much of it’s future.
And just because you might not understand how he’s improved (or other posters) in no way means he has not improved.
I’ve watched his starts. I think he’s improves significantly. He reminds me in so many ways of other young pitchers who are developing and wing up as all star caliber pitchers.
But like I’ve said – I wish yankee fans had watched and paid attention to how Ubaldo Jimenez and David Price looked last year before making pronouncements from up high over what Hughes is and isn’t and whether or not he’s improved.
Phil Hughes is a young pitcher who was supposed to be a number five this year. He has won 16 games and pitched well all things considered. He has great composure, is not an emotional basket case like Burnett and is humble and takes personal responsibility when he doesn’t pitch well.
He has good command, a plus fastball, a great curve, an effective cutter when he doesn’t use it too much and a developing change. Hughes has great upside potential.
Betsy,
If this is the Tex we’re going to have to expect year in year out, the Yankees overpaid for his services.
They did it rightly so since they were snatching him from Boston and he was a need here last year that contributed to a championship, but the streaky player he’s been offensively since he put on the pinstripes is not a cornerstone player for your team. We’re paying him 23 million dollars and he’s morphed into bad Giambi offensively.
His defense can’t be questioned and he gets a lot of credit for that.
As for Phil’s future, it’s pointless to talk endlessly about what he’s going to project to be as no one knows if he’s going to take the lessons he learned this season and apply them to next season and be a better pitcher.
That said, I have to believe that he’s going to learn how to turn 2 strike counts into outs better in the future.
I see SJ and CB telling us all the time that he is improving and I’m taking their word for it even though the results are hard to see sometimes.
What we’re all pinning our hopes on him is that the struggles he’s had this season in certain types of situations he will learn how to handle differently after having this year to reflect on.
He’s a good pitcher. He pitched well enough to win last night, but he did cough up the lead. That’s a fact.
That said, the offense screwed him. He should be able to give up 4 runs in 7 and win with this offense.
SJ44 -
So, the playoff rotation is going to be quite interesting. You would think Girardi would want to break up the lefties Sabathia & Pettitte. A big question will be how many innings will Pettitte be able to give? If you consider that no matter what was said about auditioning, AJ is going to start in the playoffs, and he’s the guy you’re most worried about in terms of blowing up, and the fact that no one but CC has been able to go more than 6, the load on the bullpen is going to be crazy.
I understand that Hughes failed to execute against Johnson, but doesn’t some of the blame have to fall on the manager’s shoulders? The manager’s job is to give his team the best chance to win. Hughes was up to 100 pitches and had already given up a homer to Johnson in his first at bat. Girardi should have had Logan and/or Ring up and ready at the beginning of the 7th. Sure, Maddon would have gone to Aybar who had homered the night before in response, but so what. I would rather go down using the bullets in my gun.
Girardi can’t throw or hit, be he can decide who throws and hits and when they do so. Leaving Hughes in the game to face Johnson was a mistake that cost them the game.
If people are expecting Hughes to “carry some of the load” by pitching shutouts or one run ball games they are likely to be disappointed.
He isn’t there yet, I don’t know if he will ever be, but he’s not there yet.
What the Yanks need from Phil is basically what they got last night. He got them through 6 innings giving up 2 runs. That is very good. He ran into trouble in the seventh, gave up the second HR. Unfortunately with a man on base.
But you simply can’t reasonably expect more than that. Giving up 4 runs is not “unacceptable”. The Rays are the second highest scoring team in the majors. They are going to score runs.
The offense needs to score.
If Gardner and Swisher come back, it will.
If Gardner and Swisher don’t come back, and Jeter doesn’t hit, and Tex and Cano stay in their slumps, the Yanks are going to lose in the post-season. It’s that simple.
The pitching won’t, and can’t be expected to, win enough games if the lineup features Golson or Colin Curtis or Cervelli or Granderson against lefties, and Tex and Cano don’t hit.
Sandy Koufax and 2 days of rain aren’t walking through the door.
“I said I question his real potential until I see how much progress he makes with his other pitches. This conversation was going well before I joined in……………so obviously Phil is a hot button topic with people other than myself.”
In the past – including the very recent past however you’ve done far more than “question.” You’ve been adamant about how good he is and you’ve definitively said that in your “opinion” hughes is not an ace.
You said this dozens and dozens of times in one form or another. One post today doesn’t change that context.
And the conversation was going well before…
You’ve been bar none, by far the most negative, vocal critique of Hughes on this board. It’s not even close. You’ve raised expectations more than anyone and have refused to look at how he’s pitched with the kind of nuance required to understand what direction a young pitcher has been headed for. Instead it’s black and white.
No one has been as strident and persistent on this point as you have.
That’s your choice. As you’ve clearly said it’s your “opinion” and it stands. You’ve been very clear on this point and repeated it hundreds of times.
Girardi has said breaking up the left-handers is not an issue for him. Of course it isn’t, he has no choice. The obvious playoff rotation IMO is Sabathia, Pettitte, Burnett and Hughes.
As you’ve clearly said it’s your “opinion” and it stands. You’ve been very clear on this point and repeated it hundreds of times.
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This isn’t even exaggerating…
“last nights outing was the best of the season for Hughes with regards to predicting what he may do in tHe future. He showed things that he had yet to show this year. The end result wasnt good and he does still have issues finishing hitters and innings but their were positives from last night if you want to see them.”
This is a very fair, balanced and accurate evaluation of what we saw and the related positives and disappointments.
Almost all young pitchers pass through these intermediate states.
That does not mean that Hughes is guaranteed to be an ace. But I can tell you Felix Hernandez, Ubaldo Jimenez and Josh Johnson had games just like the one Hughes threw last night, the major difference being that they generally didn’t have to do in in the heat of a pennant race.
the only one who has choked is Cashman. He screwed up this team by letting damon AND matsui go, signing nick johnson, and trading for kearns and berkman. Don’t worry, we can put all the pressure on granderson, tex, and A-Rod to drive in runs. well that wasn’t the strategy last year when the Yankees won it all. Phil Hughes pitched a great game, is young, and still learning. Heck, guidry didn’t come up until he was older than Phil.
If winning the WS depends on Gardner and Swisher hitting, that says alot about the sorry state of the marquee players. How many teams would trade their line-up for one that has Jeter, Arod, Tex, Berkman, Cano, Granderson, Posada and any two other players?
Its inexcusable for those guys not to be able to win because Gardner and Swisher are down. I’m not saying it isn’t true, but its a joke.
Texas swept NY without Hamilton. And that line-up is still better than TB’s. Its certainly better than Baltimore’s.
Girardi has said breaking up the left-handers is not an issue for him. Of course it isn’t, he has no choice. The obvious playoff rotation IMO is Sabathia, Pettitte, Burnett and Hughes.
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Why is Hughes last.
If the Yankees even go with 4 starters, A.J. has to go last. He has the highest probability of having a short outing so he needs to be backed up by CC who has the highest probability of pitching 7+ innings. That way if A.J. starts to struggle in the 3rd inning, Girardi can blow out the bullpen and feel safe because CC is next in line.
If the Yankees do wind up with home field, they should pitch CC and Andy at home. Throwing a left hander at the stadium is a significant advantage, especially if the opposition starts a RH in one of those games. Hughes is clearly the game 3 starter at worst.
If they start on the road CC has to pitch game 1. I’d throw Hughes game two and give Andy a home start to make sure they have at least one lefty throwing at home.
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