What to do with Ivan Nova
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Sep 21, 2010 
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Writing about the potential postseason pitching staff two weeks ago, I wrote that it might make sense to leave Ivan Nova out of the mix. I suggested the Yankees could keep Nova working as an emergency starter rather than use him as a back-of-the-rotation playoff reliever, and that might still be an option, but I’m less convinced of it today than I was 12 days ago.
Nova’s shown quite bit these past two starts. He’s shown a lot about his potential, and a lot about his lack of experience.
“You’re going to go through some bumps to figure out exactly how you pitch in games that are tight,” Joe Girardi said. “How you pitch in games when you have a big lead. How you pitch in games where maybe you’re getting roughed up early and how you settle down. I think that’s a learning process that all young starters go through.”
Nova’s fifth inning last week and sixth inning last night prove he’s not a finished product, but against a good Rays team, Nova has twice rolled through the lineup without much problem before suddenly hitting a wall. His starts have been impressive before they’ve been bad, and that’s enough to wonder if he could help the Yankees in a big spot out of the pen. He seems to become more and more of an option as the Yankees continue to avoid Javier Vazquez, Sergio Mitre and Royce Ring.
If Nova could figure out what’s causing his starts to suddenly fall apart — he said he wasn’t sure what caused the problem last night — he could make the Yankees decision easy.
“If I’ve been pitching good, it’s got to be a minor thing,” Nova said. “It’s not going to be something big.”
He could start……………I don’t think that’s out of the realm of possibility
Pitching prospect Andrew Brackman will join the major league team soon, but will not be activated. Brackman will be among a group of minor leaguers the Yankees bring to The Bronx to work with the coaches, go through drills and get a taste of life in the big leagues, something the Yankees do every year.
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports.....z10B527aCO
The Yankees wont need a 4th pitcher in the 1st round of the playoffs. CC would have to go on 3 days rest for game 4, but Pettitte would pitch game 5 on normal rest. So the question is, will they even use 4 starters in the Division Series? I’m guessing no.
Betsy, I was just questioning your line that Joe wasn’t trying to win the game. Joba was correctly unavailable because of his workload and Logan didn’t do his job. He didn’t want to burn through both Robertson and Logan in the 6th because who would he use in the 7th? Like Wave says Gaudin doesn’t give up the home run, he went with his best option for that time for one out. You can’t unload all your bullets that early in the game, especially with the workload of the pen over the last few days/weeks.
Pitching out of the pen appears to be a combination of getting the correct mix of warm-up and mindset.
Not sure I would want to take the chance of that mix being found in the postseason unless he had the opportunity to try and find it before the postseason.
Here’s a thought Nova – you could stop nibbling and leaving balls over the middle of the plate…
Patrick-
Look at it this way. If some aliens fly by the Earth they’ll know that George once owned the Yanks.
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Haha very funny. One more note about the unveiling of George’s plaque – Hal’s wife is very impressive
Mike, that’s fine…….All I want today is a game without a lot of agita, lol
Hal’s wife is beautiful……………
I still can’t get over how much like his dad Sinatra, Jr sounds like; it’s spooky
I’m sure we can all agree on that one Betsy!
Nova only starts nibbling when he gets late in the game and a runner gets on. His tempo early in his starts is ideal and his approach is to put the ball over the plate and make the opposition beat him–and his stuff is good enough to get outs in the majors which makes it work.
I really wish he would just keep pitching like that once he gets into the 5th or 6th. He slows himself down considerably and belabors every pitch, and seems to get easily distracted once a runner is on base. With a 4 run lead such as last night’s, he could/should have brushed off Bartlett’s leadoff single and gotten back into attack mode. But then things snowballed.
He is not going to start in the playoffs, but I like him as a “break glass in case of emergency” kind of guy should Burnett or Hughes have a really short appearance. The idea that he’s taking Hughes place as a SP is comical but then again, the perspective that this team’s fans have on Hughes is completely out of whack with both reality, the team itself and the rest of the league.
The problems Nova is having seem fairly easy to conquer…He should end up being quite a good starter for some team (maybe the Yankees, maybe not)
Why not activate Brackman? Do they lose an option or something?
CC-
I think I agree with you. Three starters in the ALDS.
I would not put Nova on the post-season roster.
He’s not starting in the post-season and it’s not wise to put a guy in a post-season bullpen who has not consistently pitched in relief all year.
I think you call it a year for him at the end of the season.
They either have a guy who could be their fifth starter next year or perhaps a valuable trade chip.
Either way, it’s been a very successful season for Nova.
George’s monument is a travesty. It really is. Monuments are created to commemorate by telling a story.
The story of Monument Park before was very clear. There were those who had monuments and those that had plaques. Though the collection of stars commemorated are all special, the monuments were the heart of the tradition. Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Mantle. Those are the yankees.
The Steinbrenners have now elected to go the route of historical revisionism. They got around the “monument” problem by constructing what may technically be a plaque but rendering it in absolutely monumental fashion.
There George is – a man who didnt’ come onto the scene until the 1970′s – towering over Ruth and Gehrig and Mantle and Dimaggio and all of the rest.
Now monument park tells a very different story, a story the Steinbrenner family clearly wants to tell – George towers over the entire history and tradition of the Yankees. He is the soul of the franchise.
And the dishonesty of that story is quite difficult to stomach.
I think Nova deserves a lot of credit.
IMO he has exceeded expectations so far, at least mine.
Nova is one of the 12 best pitchers on the roster. He makes the postseason team IMO
Sabathia, Pettitte, Hughes, Burnett, Rivera, Wood, Robertson, Chamberlain, Logan, Vazquez, Nova, Gaudin/Mitre/Moseley
CB,
I take it, you don’t like George’s monument?
Nova would be more like a long man out of the pen, so he’d basically be like a starter. If he’s not going to start in the post-season, I would rather see him backing up AJ or Phil than Gaudin….not sure about Javy.
If the Yanks go with 3 starters in the ALDS no way they carry 12 pitchers. 12 pitchers with 4 starters is probably overkill. I think they carry 11 pitchers, and Gaudin gets the nod (over Nova, Mitre and Moseley).
Meaning, I might have Javy be the first guy coming in, but Nova comes in before anyone else. I expect the Yankees would need his services
Just for the sake of discussion.
If the Yankees were to trade Nova in the off season what kind of a player could he bring us back in return ? Should he be included in a package of some kind ?
Salary aside, who is trusted more, Nova or Burnett ?
Neither one may be needed as a starter in the ALDS but each will get 2 more starts before the postseason to make a case for themselves.
What’s a given is that Vazquez is not in the mix as a starter. What’s unknown is whether Dustin Mosely or Sergio Mitre will have a role at all.
CB – I like your take on the Steinbrenner monument, I feel the same way.
Regarding some comments above on the Gaudin move. Joba had only thrown 11 total pitches in the previous two games and would have been a far better choice than Gaudin. So would have Robinson or Wood. There is no defending that Girardi decision IMO.
Wave,
Either the Yanks take 12 pitchers or a guy like Nunez/Golston makes the team. Personally, I’d rather have the extra pitcher.
Nova sat through a long bottom of the 5th inning last night and its wasn’t a warm night. He’s a kid and probably didn’t know how to get back up out there and start throwing strikes after a cool-down like that. Joe obviously loves him or wouldn’t have let him stay in as long as he did. I’m not sure I like Vazquez any better than Nova out of the pen in a short series. At least Nova has been pitching regularly.
I would not go so far as to call the monument a travesty. He played a huge role in building the franchise into one that still resembles the glories of the times when Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio were playing, and did it in a much more competitive and balanced modern era. Plus he was the driving force behind the billion-dollar stadium they now play in, in which his is the first monument dedicated. I am not really that appalled by the fact that they went all out for him, but then again, I don’t get too worked up over monument sizes. Plus now this paves the way for there to be a 1,000 pound, 8-foot statue of Derek Jeter erected some day. People will probably complain that the statue is making too much money on his next contract, though, even 50 years in the future.
CB,
Couldn’t have said it better myself. I’m appalled at the size of the monument. It overwhelms Monument Park and makes the story of the Yankees “George M. Steinbrenner”.
Now granted for my entire life he has owned the team, but he’s hardly the story of the Yankees to me.
It’s a great disrespect to other owners that came before him as well as the players who made the Yankees the brand and legend that they are.
All I know is the Steinbrenner family better never sell the Yankees. If I were the new owner who bought it from them the first thing I would do is take that thing down and put a more reasonable plaque up there.
I wouldn’t be shocked if within our lifetimes someone buys the team and does just that.
That said, it’s exactly what George would have wanted.
But it’s too much. They had a chance to do something that showed a touch more humility last night. I expect the stadium name to be changed to Steinbrenner Field/Stadium shortly.
The 12 best pitchers on the team isn’t the criteria to make the post-season roster.
It’s about roles and he doesn’t have a bullpen role on this team.
In addition, especially in the ALDS, they could go to an 11 man pitching staff and add another bench player.
Either way, a kid who has started all year coming up on a career high in IP seems to be a risky addition to the post-season roster.
The monument? I know my first reaction to it was the size of it.
Then, I recalled how meticulously everyone around the Yankees have cultivated the “George is larger than life” mystique since he became ill and the size of it didn’t surprise me.
Disappointed me but, didn’t surprise me.
Wave Your Hat September 21st, 2010 at 11:21 am
Betsy, the bases were loaded. There were two out. All that was needed was an out.
Robertson has a WHIP of 1.491, vs Gaudin’s WHIP of 1.308. To get one out, wouldn’t you rather go with Gaudin?
Joba would have been an even better choice, but he doesn’t tend to get used that early.
—
Gaudin’s whip is 1.46, not 1.308. And if you look more at recent performance, overall Robertson is a better pitcher. Even if you’ve just been watching, that much is obvious. That’s why Robertson is a main reliever and Gaudin is not. They also could have used Joba, or if he was “unavailable”, then even Javy is a better option. You use your better relievers in a situation like that. Joe has done that at times in the past, sometimes not. It’s part of his inconsistency that we are criticizing.
I really don’t have time for this, but my name was brought up in the last thread.
I did not rant. I expressed my feelings.
I have never said or felt or believed that there is only one way to be a fan of a team or that anyone’s particular way is better than any one else’s. NEVER.
I simply expressed that it would be nice if at least after a win, there could be some sense of, I don’t know, gladness, that the game was won, whether or not mistakes were made in getting there, and that criticisms be civil and not over-the-top.
I never knew trying stay positive would be such a freakin’ downer.
And that’s the last I’ll have to say on this. By now everyone knows me and I don’t like to beat a dead horse.
But I have to say one last thing. There are people who post level-headed and well-thought out criticism of the manager and the players. They are proof that it is not impossible to do so.
YS will never be changed to Steinbrenner Stadium………
Nova definitely has a role on the team – he’d be a long man.
I have been impressed w/ Nova, but I am not sure what role he would have in the post season. He gets rattled when he has runners on base, so he couldn’t be brought in then. Could he be brought in as a reliever when the Yankees are behind? I am not sure at this point. That might rattle him as well.
Patrick-
If the Yanks go with 3 starters in the ALDS, no way they need 9 relievers. Even if they go with 4, given the leisurely scheduling of the post-season, 8 relievers seems like more than the Yanks can reasonably use. I don’t know if the 14th position player helps that much either though.
I guess I don’t feel strongly about it – I don’t see it making much of a difference either way.
Jack, I agree………….Robertson is a far, far better pitcher than Gaudin, so whip or not, he has to come in – esp. if he’s warming up.
Ivan Nova has pitched 175 innings so far this year total in both the majors and the minors). His previous high was 148 innings. I think its just about time to shut him down for the year.
Personally, I don’t think George would have approved a monument of himself of that size.
As much as George liked being “The Boss”, he HATED ceremonies about him.
In his later years, he was afraid to come on the field (something he always did for years) because he was fearful of being booed.
I think this is more about the kids having a bigger than life tribute for their bigger than life dad than it is “what George wanted”, per se.
No doubt George would have wanted, and deserved, a monument.
I just think he would have wanted one more in line to what’s already out there.
Why not activate Brackman? Do they lose an option or something?
If the Yanks do go with 3 starters in the ALDS, whoever the 4th starter is might not make the ALDS roster. He could stay in Tampa and pitch a simulated game or two to stay sharp for the ALCS.
I would not call last night a “meltdown” by Nova. Yes, he lost some control, but the tiny strike zone wasn’t helping. He gave up a single, a walk and a single. Then Cervelli drove in a run for TB. Then he got Longoria to ground into a double play. Then he was taken out and Gaudin gave up a hit to tack another run onto Nova’s record.
I would not call that a meltdown. In fact getting Longoria to ground into a dp with the bases loaded and no one out was pretty clutch.
IDCWYT September 21st, 2010 at 11:57 am
Why not activate Brackman? Do they lose an option or something?
—————
No; an option has already been used for this yr.
CB,
Agree 100 percent about the monument. Ridiculously large. And there is already a statue of George at the park and that mural about the bleachers is there, too, the one that replaced the list of Yankees championship years. And now the monument that dwarfs the plaques and monuments of other Yankee legends. Overkill, to me.
How many long men do you need in a 5 game series?
You have 4 starting pitchers. You have Vazquez and either Gaudin or Mitre on the roster.
That’s either 2 or 3 (if you only use 3 starters in the ALDS) guys who could be long men in the pen.
That’s more than enough.
how’s the granderson trade now all you grandy haters. king george’s monument matches his ego.
I was at the game last night and I just could not believe the sheer size of the monument.
I also watched Torre as he walked with his wife to monument park. He was looking up and down and checking the stadium out.
I wondered if he thought, “I helped build this place”.
Strange night.
Great win though.
I agree that Nova can’t be relied as a pen guy if he hasn’t thrown a pitch out of the pen leading up to the PS. Unless Joe plans on using him in that capacity these last 2 weeks if he’s on the roster he will be there to start. I guess he could be used in a laugher or a clean inning but that would be a surprise IMO.
I’d rather see Nova than Gaudin or Mitre
What to do with Nova? Don’t do anything. Just love him, man, just love him.
Good day, all –
1. Nobody does tradition and ceremony like the Yankees. Even friends of mine who are Mets fans (poor souls) were impressed. Nice that, at least publicly, they are burying the hatchett with Torre. Now, the cynic in me says that might be driven at least as much by marketing and branding the Yankees’ name and mystiques as much as anything, but it’s still a decent thing to do, especially at a moment like last night.
2. I was struck that the plaque was so large, as others were. But, I’m not as distressed about it. I guess the family owns the team, so they can do what they want. If nothing else, it suggests that the Steinbrenner family intends to hold onto the team for a while.
3. I don’t know what’s with Nova and the 5th-6th inning. Maybe he needs to figure out how to adjust after 2 times thru the lineup in the bigs. But, he has stuff to work with.
4. I know Joe is balancing a lot of different agendas, but, to this observer, the key guys in the pen need a significant rest. As I’ve said about their lineups, there is enough quality on their pitching staff to win a game or two without going to the studs there. It can start tonight, wtih Phil. Vaz, Mitre, Ring, Albie are all capable of pitching well enough to win. Just got to do it. Likewise, the bats have to hit well enough to give those guys enough so that they don’t feel the need to make perfect pitches each time.
5. Is that story about Maddon not knowing who was warming in his own bullpen true? If so, wow…..
I’m not putting Nova in the HOF, but he’s got good stuff and playoff teams will be mostly unfamiliar with him. Gaudin and Mitre are who they are…………….
I would not mind George’s plaque being that big if it were somewhere else in the park. It should not overshadow greats like Ruth, Gehrig, etc. The players make the game, not the ownership/management. In fact I think only players should be in Monument Park.
CountryClub September 21st, 2010 at 11:59 am
IDCWYT September 21st, 2010 at 11:57 am
Why not activate Brackman? Do they lose an option or something?
?????
No; an option has already been used for this yr.
***********
Thanks! I wonder if there’s a specific reason then for not activating him. Do they just want him shut down for the rest of the year?
George understood yankee tradition and respected it. I also don’t know if he’d have ever wanted something like that embarrassing, sentimental monstrosity towering over Ruth and Gehrig.
George understood that history well. That’s what he was buying when he purchased the club. He understood that better than most that he wasn’t only buying a team – he was buying a tradition. That’s partly why he bought the team when it was at a low point and when NY City wasn’t in the best of shape.
He had a huge ego. But I don’t know if he would have tolerated that kind of tawdry, buffoonish historical revisionism just to placate that ego.
You can make the monuments as large as you want. That’s never, every going to make George a more singular part of the franchise’s fabric than Ruth. To look at monument park now, it’s entirety seems very disingenuous. I don’t think George would have wanted to do that to Yankee tradition.
It would have been much more touching and classy for him to have a regular sized plaque. That way he would have taken his appropriate place within the tradition rather than fighting the ridiculous battle of trying to tower over it.
No owner is every going to tower over Gehrig saying that he was the luckiest man on the earth because he played baseball and did so for the Yankees while he was literally dying. No owner is ever going to make the mythos of Ruth and Mantle and Dimaggio recede.
It just makes George look silly because people will attribute the gaudiness of the plaque to his own personal desires.
Hasnt Nova’s last two meltdowns come in the half inning following long at bats by Yanks?
Maybe he isnt keeping warmed up or too easily distracted??
I mean, Brackman didn’t even spend a full year in AA. It’s a lot to ask to have him active and potentially coming into a game in an environment like Fenway, even if the game is for all intents and purposes meaningless. And they certainly wouldn’t use him in a meaningful game before that scenario (last weekend of the year, all matters decided).
Agree 100% w/ jacksquat, but I’m sure this massive memorial was “crafted” years ago by the ruling family.
Doreen…
I thought your earlier post was spot on. The only complainers are the guilty ones…
You are one of the best posters on here and I always read what you have to say …keep
up the good work. It’s nice reading a “sane” post every once in awhile ..
Go Yankees 2010 !!
“Gaudin’s whip is 1.46, not 1.308. And if you look more at recent performance, overall Robertson is a better pitcher…even Javy is a better option.”
You are right about Gaudin’s 2010 WHIP, I was using his Yankee WHIP. But I disagree about Javy, he is much too HR prone to be brought in then.
And, when only one out is needed, and you don’t need the strikeout, Gaudin is basically interchangeable with Robertson. There’s no reason to get upset with Girardi there.
WYH-
I loved your comment about Aliens and the GMS Monument/plaque. They definitely would see that one on a flyby.
Too bad it wasn’t available when Kubrick was making 2001. Could have used it there too.
Gaudin is not anywhere close to being the pitcher that Robertson is….
steve sax arm
September 21st, 2010 at 12:01 pm
how’s the granderson trade now all you grandy haters. king george’s monument matches his ego.
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IMO, the jury is still out as far as Granderson is concerned. He’s been very good lately, but we will see how the year ends up and how clutch he is in pressure situations in the post-season.
Granderson hit .225 in August and he started September hitting .245 – he is now hitting .249.
You will have to pardon me if I am not ecstatic about a starter who is hitting .249 with a .326 OBP and over 100 strike outs.
I think the monument is probably too big…however I think its possible that emotions played a part in the designing of it….the steinbrenner family just lost their dad, husband , etc….So while I don’t think it should be bigger than Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio , I am inclined to give them a small pass given the timing of it all…..I do agree that George would probably order the thing made smaller or maybe even taken down all together.
Murphy
Swindal had been at a few games this year with Jennifer so I figured at least a Detente had been reached but I was surprised too to see him take an on field role for the ceremony.
Good point, West Coast. Granderson has generated a few nice hot streaks this season, but he’s far from lighting it up in aggregate. We tend to discount the past and overweight recent performance.
Brackman had a good yr. I think they just want him to go into the off season on a high note. They probably feel that there’s no sense in risking him pitching in a meaningless game and getting hit hard. Let the kid feel good for a few months.
Oh, and Wave, I wonder if the Astronauts could spot it from the space shuttle with the naked eye.
I wonder if Javy will make the postseason roster? Joe just doesn’t seem to have any confidence in him, although he has done well in his limited appearances out of the pen.
Maybe George in his latter years would have preferred something a bit more tasteful, but the younger, more megalomaniacal George would have wanted his image to drape over the stadium in LeBronian fashion.
MTU-
Probably. The Great Wall of China and the GMS monument.
I think Javy will make the post-season roster; when is the last time he pitched?
I expect him to make an appearance tonight
Basically I have no issue with George’s monument! He saved the Yankees IMO. Perhaps most of you don’t remember the Yankee teams of the late 60′s & early 70′s. They were awful! The ownership really destroyed a magnificent organization and icon in the NY Yankees. Sure George had a learning curve and an ego to match, but he used those weaknesses to build the Yankees back and ultimately to be strengths of the organization. As much as Ruth & Gehrig, Dimaggio & Berra, Ford & Mantle, R Jackson & Munson, and the Core 4/5 were the symbol of Yankee Stardom so was George.
I think George earned every inch of the plaque! Every inch indeed. May the next generations continue to build on his foundation.
I think one of the big issues for Nova last night was the fact that Tim McClelland decided he was in a squeezing mood.
EVERYTHING had the potential to be called a ball. Right down the middle of the plate? That’s a ball, evidently.
Ordinarily McClelland is very good at balls and strikes (once he gets around to calling the pitch, that is.) Last night was not his best effort, and I think that can definitely affect a young pitcher like Nova.
How big is Jacob Ruppert’s monument?
I’m out. Later.
Joe from Long Island
Story was true.
From TampaBayOnline:
“Joe Maddon walked to the mound in the bottom of the sixth inning Monday with Yankees left-hander Curtis Granderson at the plate and called for left-handed reliever Randy Choate.
Maddon waited on the Yankee Stadium mound for Choate and, when the pitcher finally arrived, handed the ball to Choate.
Except it wasn’t Choate.
It was right-hander Grant Balfour.
Surprised?
Ya think?
“I went out there, and I was on the mound and all of a sudden I’m giving the ball to the pitcher, and it didn’t look like Randy Choate,” Maddon said.”
Kerry Wood should have been out after that 3-2 pitch to (I forget) – I’m not one to complain about balls and strikes calls, but that was blatantly awful.
pat:
Wasnt aware there were prior Swindal sightings at the Stadium. That’s pretty interesting. I mean, they could have their detente and not necessarily have it publicly at the Stadium. If anybody believes in corporate symbolism, it’s really interesting, IMO, that Swindal was allowed back in the House (that George Built). So it’s not an isolated thing. Was he kicked out because George sent him out? Hmmm. If he’s rehabilitated himself (no more drinking) maybe they could use an old hand who was once verrrry familiar with the family baseball business.
That is a plaque of GMS, not a monument. The monuments are the 5 tombstones standing, not fastened to the wall. Not much different than the image of GMS that’s adorning the wall in back of the seast in right center.
pat – that’s amazing. That’s managerial malpractice.
Can you just imagine if that occurred in NY?
Jacob Ruppert has a plaque that’s about twice the size of the normal plaques.
http://www.theyankeeu.com/2010.....runs-21489
It’s true that Hughes has been a better pitcher on the road than at home in 2010. At home this season he’s made 16 starts and thrown 94 innings, an average of 5.87 innings per start. In those starts, he has a 4.88 ERA and a 7.0 K/9. His strikeout to walk ratio is 2.43, and he’s surrendered an astounding 19 home runs in the New Yankee Stadium. On the road it’s a different story. Hughes has made 12 road starts and thrown 69 innings, averaging 5.75 innings per start. On the road his ERA is 3.52, his strikeout rate is 8.0 and his strikeout to walk ratio is an impressive 3.21 K/BB. Notably, Hughes has only given up 5 home runs on the road.
***************
These home/road splits are amazing. I understand the HR rate at YS being higher (though not that high – Phil has to find a way to cut down on the HRs), but the strikeouts to walk ratio? That’s kind of odd.
I have more problems with Jackson’s #44 being retired than I do with the Steinbrenner plaque.
I’m not one to usually complain a lot about ball/strike calls, I realize it is difficult. But McClelland made a lot of bad calls throughout the game. Mostly pitches on the 1B side and bottom of the strike zone that were strikes were too many times called balls. He seemed to have problems calling Nova’s curve especially.
“That is a plaque of GMS, not a monument.”
GB7-
Yes it’s technically a plaque but it’s monumental in nature as it must be 10 time the size of any other plaque.
Also, technically I think George’s plaque is actually free standing – I don’t think it was fastened to the wall – it at least had a very large supportive base to it which makes it entirely different than any other plaque. At best it’s a huge plaque with a pedestal at it’s bottom.
To me it looks like the family didn’t want to give George a regular sized plaque but didn’t feel like they could give him a true free standing monument because of the gravity of that decision.
So instead they thought up the worst possible solution.
George doesn’t deserve a free standing monument. He’s not on the same plane as Ruth or Gehrig. But even that would have been much better than what they wound up doing which is having Steinbrenner’s commemorative figure (whether plaque or monument) literally dwarf all of yankee history.
I know you love and respect Yankee history as much as anyone. There is simply no way that you can do anything in monument park that diminishes those 5 free standing monuments. But that’s what they did last night.
Monuments shouldn’t lie. They often do but that doesn’t mean it’s right.
There was one McClelland call in particular that was maybe one of the worst I have ever seen, I don’t know if anyone remembers it. Wood was pitching and he threw a good curve ball that replays showed split the plate belt high. His eyes must have been closed.
It was not McClelland’s best night behind the plate last night, that’s for sure.
No idea how he could have missed the 3-2 pitch Wood threw.
He’s normally one of the best ball-strike umpires in the league.
However, last night won’t be on his highlight DVD.
murphy
He might be of more use outside the organization right now.
He along with some high profile partners started a baseball academy in the Dominican Republic.
I think calling the new plaque/monument a travesty and an embarrassment is a bit strong. I agree that it shouldn’t have been any bigger than Ruth’s et al but he still literally saved the team, there’s no getting around that. For decades people have been calling him the greatest owner in team sports. He deserved something very special. Sure they might have gone a bit overboard but it was their rite as the owning family to do this. George did everything humanly possible to win for the fans so I find it hard to use such strong negativity considering the context.
Please don’t compare Steinbrenner with legends such as Ruth, Gehrig, and DiMaggio.
It’s hard to forget that call – what more did Wood have to do? It was a perfect pitch – I still can’t believe that wasn’t a strike. That could have come back to haunt us.
“5. Is that story about Maddon not knowing who was warming in his own bullpen true? If so, wow…..”
Kinda makes you appreciate that overbearing, stat-head Girardi, doesn’t it? …Just a little?
“CB September 21st, 2010 at 12:09 pm
George understood yankee tradition and respected it. I also don’t know if he’d have ever wanted something like that embarrassing, sentimental monstrosity towering over Ruth and Gehrig.
George understood that history well. That’s what he was buying when he purchased the club. He understood that better than most that he wasn’t only buying a team – he was buying a tradition. That’s partly why he bought the team when it was at a low point and when NY City wasn’t in the best of shape.
He had a huge ego. But I don’t know if he would have tolerated that kind of tawdry, buffoonish historical revisionism just to placate that ego.
You can make the monuments as large as you want. That’s never, every going to make George a more singular part of the franchise’s fabric than Ruth. To look at monument park now, it’s entirety seems very disingenuous. I don’t think George would have wanted to do that to Yankee tradition.
It would have been much more touching and classy for him to have a regular sized plaque. That way he would have taken his appropriate place within the tradition rather than fighting the ridiculous battle of trying to tower over it.
No owner is every going to tower over Gehrig saying that he was the luckiest man on the earth because he played baseball and did so for the Yankees while he was literally dying. No owner is ever going to make the mythos of Ruth and Mantle and Dimaggio recede.
It just makes George look silly because people will attribute the gaudiness of the plaque to his own personal desires.”
Very well said CB. I couldn’t quit put my finger on why the size was bothering me so much but i think you’ve summed it up perfectly.
Stressing monument size is really getting caught up in minutiae but better to think the monument a “travesty” than the team a travesty.
I can’t get worked up about the size of the “monument”. Ruth, Gehrig and DiMaggio are legends and nothing will ever change that.
Give McClelland a pass. He’s usually one of the better umps. It’s a game of human error all the way around.
CB,
I think its possible that the Steinbrenners may have lost perspective given that it was their father.
the only place that 3-2 pitch could have missed was up and the side view showed it crossed just above the belt….that call nearly cost them 3 runs. Logan, Rivera, Wood, and Roberson need the night off tonight.
I still trust Nova more than AJ, but that’s damning with faint praise.
As for the monument, what I find strange is the expression on George’s face.
pat:
“He along with some high profile partners started a baseball academy in the Dominican Republic.”
I saw that. Just thinking: Probably a conflict of interest if he simultaneously holds a position in an independent academy and with the Yankees. Would the Yankees buy the academy? Don’t they already support/own another? Again, Hmmm. Could he work with/oversee the foreign scouting?
Oh well, off to Brooklyn to argue a emergency writ. (And I just spent the last hour or so on the blog!) Thankfully I know this case pretty well. Later.
Granted the bullpen is overworked. I just can’t see Hughes going deeper than 6 innings. Should be an interesting final 3 if the game is close.
Oh, and let me add that Gaudin needs nights off too . . . beginning around October 5th.
I remember that pitch by Wood. Even Kay and Flaherty commented “where was that?”. Wood stared in for a moment, then turned his back and walked to the back of the mound to collect himself; he’s a pro. He got out of the inning.
No excuse there. If a belt-high, middle of the plate pitch isn’t a strike, then I don’t know what to say.
I have more problems with Jackson’s #44 being retired than I do with the Steinbrenner plaque.
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Funny but last night Mike Kay made a comment….something about how every Yankee dreams about having a monument and I was thinking “probably not” because it means you’re dead.
But anyway Yogi and Reggie were walking together back there last night and I was thinking Yogi’s definitely “monument worthy” but Reggie? He played about 650 games in pinstripes. 144 HR’s.
What a difference a night makes.
The new Monument sucks. I never liked Steinbrenner. I grew up in the Mattingly years — better known as the years with scant starting pitching (both Neikro brothers?) and the revolving-door managers. My guess is that George himself wanted that monstrosity. And to mention — loudly — how important is is to give anonymously utter disingenuousness.
And all this “size of the plaque” stuff will recede just like all the class warfare nonsense raised after the new Stadium opened. Please. Steinbrenner saved the Yankee franchise from becoming a has-been, a relic going the way of the two dollar bill. All those statues and plaques and monuments out there could have gone the way of the dodo. Its not like his plaque is taking space away from anybody who deserves it or is blocking Mickey Mantle or the Babe or Dimagg.
I’m not saying the size of the plaque is equivalent relatively to his contributions versus everyone else out there, I’m just saying I don’t get the moral outrage. Now I’m really leaving.
McClellands best days are behind him. He needs to either a) have his eyes checked or b) retire.
The GMS momument/plaque = guady.
You can surely make the argument that if Reggie’s plaque worthy than so is Matsui.
The 6th inning was more about Logan failing 3 times against left handed hitters than it was about Gaudin’s walk. You can blame the Logan failure on bloop hits if you want, but, he also walked a batter and all anyone wants to do is blame it on Gaudin. He’s the one that got them out of the 6th inning. The bullpen has not been good for a week.
You could also lay some blame on Girardi for not having a pitcher at least slowly warming up to start the inning. It has been Nova’s ML pattern to start coming unglued in the 5th and 6th innings so far. He’s got to get over that problem or he needs to be in the pen if he stays with the team. Personally, I think he gets included in a trade over the winter.
Someone used to shoot us links to the location of pitches in any given at bat …does anyone remember where we get that AND how to get a copy of the Wood curveball for a strike that was called a ball ?
Mc Clelland’s problem is that he’s too damn tall to keep squatting back there at his age.
He’s probably relieved when guys like Mauer are in front of him. Every inch counts when you’re pushing 60.
Cervelli’s probably 5’11″.
I’m just saying I don’t get the moral outrage.
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There is no outrage, and it has nothing to do with morals.
It’s just inappropriate. It makes it look like George is bigger than all of Yankee history. It’s like he is looking over the rest of Monument Park as a god. I’m not even sure George himself would have approved of it.
jnorris427 To make it all clear: Andrew Brackman and Dellin Betances are headed to NY to get a taste of life in the show, not to pitch at all.
The Yankees definitely went a little crazy with the retired numbers. The only one I see making it there in the near future is 2 and obviously 42 (which, yes, I know, is already retired by baseball).
GB – you’re right about Logan in specific, and the pen in general. I just think they’re a bit overworked. Phil needs to give innings tonight, and hopefully just one guy after him. Bats need to give a big enough lead to accomodate that.
Don Vito A. Bellamo September 21st, 2010 at 1:06 pm
Someone used to shoot us links to the location of pitches in any given at bat …does anyone remember where we get that AND how to get a copy of the Wood curveball for a strike that was called a ball ?
—
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/.....type=3.gif
Well in the strike zone.
Don Vito
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/.....evDate=920
I want some of whatever Francesa is on if he seriously thinks Torre will be the Yankee manager in 2011.
Pat,
I always knew too many Diet Coke’s can mess up someone’s brain.
Now we have conclusive proof!
Joe, I think that the Yankee hitters will be looking for those change-ups tonight. I’m not going to call the homers, but, I’m looking for at least 3. Hughes needs to be pitching outside on Pena and Johnson all night long and stay off of the back to back cutters. Let Posada call the gameand not shake him off.
Logan has been better than ever imagined, but, last night was not a good outing. NYYs need a blowout, so later in the game, they can bring Royce Ring in were he can’t do any damage. Hopefully, he proves me wrong and can get a guy like Pena/Crawford/Johnson out and maybe be part of the picture against left handed hitters.
2 of the B’s get to hang with the big boys
jnorris427 To make it all clear: Andrew Brackman and Dellin Betances are headed to NY to get a taste of life in the show, not to pitch at all.
I can see Torre working for the Yankees in a PR capacity but not as a manager. I’m not sure that other than the Mets, Torre will be managing anywhere next year, if ever again.
I certainly don’t want Torre to manage the Yankees in 2011, but that sure would be entertaining.
If Joe decides to manage the Mets, he will need to drinkg something a lot stronger than green tea to get through those games.
# Shame Spencer September 21st, 2010 at 1:12 pm
The Yankees definitely went a little crazy with the retired numbers. The only one I see making it there in the near future is 2 and obviously 42 (which, yes, I know, is already retired by baseball).
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You can make strong arguments for others. Take a guy like Bernie that really doesn’t get a lot of love and put his numbers up against the Yankee titans. He’s right there with them in many key categories.
6th in runs
6th in HR’s
6th in RBI’s
5th in hits
3rd in doubles
Pettitte’s another one. Posada as well. Joe Torre.
It’s hard to sit on a change up as most pitchers throw relatively few of them compared to their fastball. If you are looking for a fastball and you get a change up, you have a chance to react. Not so the other way around.
New poster boy for the Gritty Gutty Award.
J. Hairston has been playing on a broken tibia for the past 2 months and thought it was shin splints.
Agreed on Shields. They seemed a bit better last go round on Shield and what he throws.
I don’t think Torre will ever manage the Yankees again. Been there, done that, and Cash and he are on different pages in regards to statistical analysis; that’s one of the reasons Cash went with Girardi and not Mattingly, I think.
Likewise, if Torre didn’t want to continue with the Dodgers, and their ownership and organizational issues, I can’t for the life of me see him signing on with the clown college in Flushing. He doesn’t need the aggravation, and it wouldn’t help his legacy in the least.
I think that if Torre can make at least as much money doing something other than managing, he will. At his age, he doesn’t need the aggravations, nor the travel. All he needs/wants is the money. Not that there’s anything wrong with that….
I want to see Torre in the booth with Mike Kay.
I’d like to see Arod break in the new plaque by taking a James Shields changeup of the top of it tonight….you had better believe Alex will be sitting changeup at least a few times tonight….if he gets one up and is looking for it…..bye bye.
Torre can make more money working for the Yanks in some capacity and in speaking engagements around NY than he will managing. I can’t see him in atlanta because I think that Freddi Gonazales might have the inside track there. The Cubs don’t seem like his kind of team. The Cards would be more like his style, though, I don’t see the Cards going after a 72 year old manager. Doesn’t really leave much to chose from.
If they decide the monument/plaque is too big, Felix can trim it back.
NYYs just need to taken everything to the opposite field and up the middle tonight. If Gardner, Granderson and Jeter get on base, run ‘em ragged.
jacksquat and Pat, thank you !
It is a shame that Torre and Kay have their little diva-tastic relationship, because it would be interesting to see Torre come back as an analyst on YES. He is a great talker, and the limited games I’ve heard him call on TV have been pretty good.
Andrew — you don’t like the erudite Michael Kay? I don’t know who Kay knows, but it’s probably the same guy Gaudin knows. Would love to see someone tell him, “See Ya!”
I believe the new ESPN 30 for 30 film tonight is on Steinbrenner.
Totally off topic (but whatever)-
Some people here said yesterday that they were DVring the Event last night. Just curious of what the thoughts of anyone that watched it were
I’m looking at a pretty good picture of the Steinbrenner whatchamacallit, which also includes in the picture things which are obviously plaques and things which are obviously monuments.
The whatchamacallit is more like a monument than a plaque, IMO. In any event it is very large.
Erica,
I haven’t see it yet but I’ve talked to a few people that watched and they liked it…said it was Flashforwardish…(which I liked). Probably watch it tonight after the game.
blake September 21st, 2010 at 2:07 pm
Erica,
I haven?t see it yet but I?ve talked to a few people that watched and they liked it?said it was Flashforwardish?(which I liked). Probably watch it tonight after the game.
****************
I thought the FlashForward premiere was much better than the Event last night.
I am going to watch next week to see how much the stroy progresses, but I am not sure I am that into it
“Pettitte’s another one. Posada as well. Joe Torre.”
I think retiring Bernie’s number is a mistake. Same would go for Pettitte and Torre for me. Posada I could see making more of a case for if for no other reason that the ridiculous consistency the guy has had as a catcher. Almost unheard of.
Hilarious story about Maddon’s reaction last night when handing the ball to Balfour instead of what would have been the smart move in Choate. Oops.
Buster_ESPN FYI: Curtis Granderson’s strong finish probably makes it unlikely that the Yankees will be in the Carl Crawford/Jayson Werth market.
1 minute ago via web
I disagree Shame. Torre has to be a lock, four World Championships, six pennants, ten division titles in twelve years and a .605 winning percentage.
What about Torre going to the Mets?
Olney is nuts. I don’t know what Granderson has to do with Crawford. IMO, Gardner’s good year would be the reason not to go after Crawford. Second, Granderson is hitting .249 with a .330 OBP and over 100 K’s. A good three weeks in September does not a resumé make.
I just don’t understand all the fuss about the size of GMS III plaque.
For 37 years he managed to bring a championship team back to NY, and year after year devoted his time, energy and money in directing the team to be in a position to win.
Those of us that have followed the Yankees from the 40′s until now, perhaps can better appreciate the full impact Gearge had when be purchased the team in 1973.
The team had gone from years of greatness, to being a celler team, that quite frankly stunk, to the quality product we see year after year now.
No other major sports team owner has done as much as George to put their team at the level of the Yankees, not just in NY, but world wide.
If I were in the same postion as his family, I’d most likely had given my dad a great big plaque as well.
George was bigger than live while here, why not when he’s gone. The Yankees were George’s team, he built it and he deserves all the tributes he gets, IMO.
It seems obvious to me what Nova’s problem is: they are getting him the third time through the order. That’s pretty much where the opposing lineup is by the fifth/six inning.
So Nova has enough stuff to fool them twice but not three times, at least not yet.
I really believe Nova will someday be a number three or two starter.
I’m not completely sure is going to be with the Yankees.
I sure wish him the best.