Giants make a change for Game 4
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Oct 31, 2010 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
For a pivotal Game 4, the Giants shook up their lineup by sitting left fielder Pat Burrell. He was the Giants cleanup hitter in Games 1 and 2, but Burrell went 0-for-9 with eight strikeouts through the first three games of the Series.
If the Giants win tonight, they put themselves on the verge of a championship, with three games to get it done. If the Rangers win, they tie the series, with Cliff Lee going tomorrow night in Game 5.
• Before tonight’s game, Joey Votto and Jose Bautista were announced as the winners of the Hank Aaron Award as the best offensive players in each league. Fans voted for the award online, but for the first time in its 12-year history, the award was also voted on a Hall of Fame committee led by Aaron and including Tony Gwynn, Harmon Killebrew, Willie McCovey, Paul Molitor, Billy Williams and Robin Yount.
• Former Presidents George H. W. Bush and George W. Bush will throw out the ceremonial first pitch. George W. Bush was the managing general partner of the Rangers from 1989 to 1994.
• Lyle Lovett will sing the National Anthem. A group of combat veterans called 4Troops will sing God Bless America.
• First pitch is scheduled for 8:20 p.m. ET.
GIANTS
Andres Torres CF
Freddy Sanchez 2B
Aubrey Huff DH
Buster Posey C
Cody Ross LF
Juan Uribe 3B
Travis Ishikawa 1B
Edgar Renteria SS
Nate Schierholtz RF
RANGERS
Elvis Andrus SS
Michael Young 3B
Josh Hamilton CF
Vlad Guerrero DH
Nelson Cruz LF
Ian Kinsler 2B
Jeff Francoeur RF
Bengie Molina C
Mitch Moreland 1B
Associated Press photo
Compliments of MLB Rumors-R-Us.
“•Steve Melewski of MASNSports.com notes that it doesn’t appear as if the Orioles have made much of an attempt to keep Koji Uehara. Uehara finished 2010 as the team’s closer, but he is scheduled to be a free agent in the not-too-distant future.”
=================================================================
If this becomes fact, he’s a good choice for the Yankee bullpen, as long as he comes at a reasonable price. He made $5 mil in 2010, so the price will be high…maybe as close as Kerry Wood’s price.
How do you cook a moose burger ?
FOX and MLB do suck.
Game 3 last night started at 6:30pm, shouldn’t this game start at 6:30, instead of 8:20?
“How do you cook a moose burger ?”
Marinate it the night before, then cook at 550 for 2 hours.
Game 3 last night started at 6:30pm, shouldn’t this game start at 6:30, instead of 8:20?
——————-
FOX has NFL commitments till 7:30ish.
http://www.thedreamshake.com/2.....ano-rivera
lol
Nolan Ryan part of the pregame ceremony AGAIN?
Nolan Ryan on the field again – CATCHING the first pitch this time. Sheesh.
We forgot about the presidents, GB7.
I guess the Rangers franchise consists of only one former player.
Ryan again, LOL.
# Ruby Tuesday October 31st, 2010 at 8:07 pm
How do you cook a moose burger ?
# Yank 97 October 31st, 2010 at 8:10 pm
“How do you cook a moose burger ?”
Marinate it the night before, then cook at 550 for 2 hours.
————————————————————————————-
that is not true…I have had it many times, rear is the way to go
Thanks I will preheat the microwave.
GB7 – Re: Uehara – I don’t get it. He pitched well for them, why wouldn’t they try to retain him? I know it always comes down to money, but I don’t get it. Do they have some young stud, a la Daniel Bard, in the wings? I don’t think so, so I don’t get it. Anyone have an explanation?
Cashman to meet with the boss’s tommorow ! Cashmoney better have a Plan A B and C ready.
payroll will be between $220- $230 mil………..
maybe closer to 220
You have had it many times rear ? Or eat it from the rear ?
really . .that high .. 220 ??
Joe, not sure what the thinking is in Baltimore. He was one of the best closer options in baseball over the last 2 months. I guess the idea of tying up a ton of cash in a set-up man is distasteful since they have Gonzales. It makes no sense in as much as they paid him $5 mil last season. They really can’t depend on Gonzales staying healthy. Maybe they plan on going after Wood.
How are you and Mrs. Island doing? Have you got the dishes done, yet?
Maybe Jeff Burroughs can throw out the first pitch next game..
Seeing W throw out the first pitch tonight I can’t help but remember 9 years ago when he stood on the rubber at yankee stadium and threw a perfect strike in the wake of 9/11….whether you liked him or not that was impressive.
Go Giants…..still can’t believe Cliff Lee isn’t startig this game.
blake October 31st, 2010 at 8:31 pm
Seeing W throw out the first pitch tonight I can’t help but remember 9 years ago when he stood on the rubber at yankee stadium and threw a perfect strike in the wake of 9/11….whether you liked him or not that was impressive.
Go Giants…..still can’t believe Cliff Lee isn’t startig this game.
———————————————————————————————————————-
That’s pretty tough to do while wearing a bullet-proof flak jacket.
Oh, just finished them, GB, and now enjoying a cognac and WS. Why couldn’t Molina throw like that against the Yanks? Awful throw. And Posey leaves the runner on 3rd. Just can’t hit with RISP. Giants should release him.
Yep. Release Posy and let the Yanks sign him to back up Romine next year in Scranton. Solid move. Eeither that or convert him into a relief pitcher.
Where is the strike zone….
Can’t give Texas extra outs. Should have turned that one fairly easily, regardless of the slide.
Too bad the Giants didn’t have robbie turning that one
Sanchez made up for it….that was a dandy.
for SF tonight SP 21 years old & Catcher 23years old
Looks like Hunter,Joba and Blanton could all go on Biggest Loser…
I see that Kung Fooey Panda is riding the bench. His superstardom didn’t last long.
joba got bigger as the year went on
joeman…I’m all for giving young guys a shot, I’m hoping Montero is on the opening day roster..
I think Kung Foo Panda goes to Panda Express a bit too much..
I believe that KF Panda might have a Taco Bell outlet in his bedroom.
# DocTodd October 31st, 2010 at 8:43 pm
joeman…I’m all for giving young guys a shot, I’m hoping Montero is on the opening day roster..
————————————————————–
don’t think it will happen but I would like to see it also
if Montero was a good defensive catcher he may have been here already
Losing that DP was on Moreland. It wouldn’t have been that close if he had stretched out his glove arm to catch the ball instead of waiting for it.
Hunter over 40 pitches already. I’m sure Washington is loving that.
joeman October 31st, 2010 at 8:52 pm
if Montero was a good defensive catcher he may have been here already
———————————————————————————————————————-
How do you know that he’s not a good defensive catcher? Because a couple of idiots like Neyer and Law say so?
If it keeps up like this then the giants are goin to be it the ranger pen rather early.
# GreenBeret7 October 31st, 2010 at 8:54 pm
joeman October 31st, 2010 at 8:52 pm
if Montero was a good defensive catcher he may have been here already
———————————————————————————————————————-
How do you know that he’s not a good defensive catcher? Because a couple of idiots like Neyer and Law say so?
——————————————————-
are you saying he is a ML catcher ?
Big league AB right there…..
9 o’clock and they’re still in the second inning. Where’s Joe West when you need him?
haven’t read one baseball scout that says he’s major league catcher right now….although you know more than them
Great play….
What part of the antler is the moose on ?
joeman October 31st, 2010 at 8:55 pm
# GreenBeret7 October 31st, 2010 at 8:54 pm
joeman October 31st, 2010 at 8:52 pm
if Montero was a good defensive catcher he may have been here already
———————————————————————————————————————-
How do you know that he’s not a good defensive catcher? Because a couple of idiots like Neyer and Law say so?
——————————————————-
are you saying he is a ML catcher ?
———————————————————————————————————————-
He’s 20 years old. How about letting him mature a little before whining about him. The last time there was a 20 ML catcher was 20 years ago.
Watching Tommy Hunter pitch is excruciating
Huff was the one player that I was hoping that NYYs would have signed last winter. He was made for YS.
Hunter should become a good ML pitcher. Only his strikeouts are lower than normal. Very much like Hughes this year in that he has a lot of foul balls hit off of him and gives up a few homers.
Hunter at 72 pitches.
Huff could have been the next Oscar Gamble. I assume he wasn’t on Cashman’s radar because his 3 million dollar asking price was too low. He just latched on to that .400 obp of Nick Johnson and threw the rest of the variables in the garbage.
Hunter is already at 72 pitches through 3. He’ll be lucky to get through 5.
GB – Cash was taken with On Base Jesus. But, you’re right about Huff.
Is it just me, or have the strike zones been very tight this October….anyone else think the same?
“Very much like Hughes this year in that he has a lot of foul balls hit off of him and gives up a few homers.”
Yep, was thinking that as well
Eric the strike zone has been tight all season, hence the low batting averages
Joe, Huff had a down season in 2009, but the guy can hit. Although his defense isn’t great he’s one that can play the 4 corners if needed. His bat would have looked a lot better at third than Pena and his outfield defense isn’t any worse than that of Thames. Just always loved that bat.
Bumgardner making WNC proud so far.
Joe, Huff would have cost the Yanks $2.5 mil less than Johnson did. That hurts. The perfect guy to take most of the DH at bats. I’d still consider making a run for him this year.
rangers should feel embarrassed if they lose tonight
If things work out well, Brandon Laird might be the next Aubrey Huff. Until then, getting him now, allowing Laird time to continue growing at Scranton, might be a good move. It all depends on how much they believe in Jesus Montero and his bat, and how well they think Posada can hit if he doesn’t have to catch.
Giants are pretty annoying.
Sanchez has a lot of heart but we are seeing what an incredible asset Robinson Cano’s rocket of an arm is by comparison.
Outstanding play on Hamilton’s ball. If Sanchez could have held the ball on Young’s hit, he has him. Been a long time since Sanchez has played defense like this.
Hamilton ends up with a pocket full of Posey.
What a throw and tag….
What a beautiful throw by Posy and fast tag by sanchez.
This game is starting to look an awful lot like 3-1. Just waiting for the Giants to break it open, probably this inning.
This is the first time I’m seeing Madison Bumgarner. The way he whips his arm across his body reminds me a lot of Don Gullett. I hope Bumgarner enjoys better longevity. He has a great deal of poise for a 21 year old.
Blake, the one thing about Montero’s defense that’s not in question is the strength of his arm. Pena should be able to fix the little to be done on his footwork, which should fix the passed balls. Even at that, he’s better defensively than Romine and Cervelli right now. Can’t answer for his game calling, because I’m not sure who’s calling the pitches. He seems to catch and call well enough to work with the fine young pitchers coming up to trenton and scranton the past two years. They certainly haven’t suffered much.
Notice how Washington got his time bomb out of the game in the fifth after a serviceable 4 innings? Take note of this Joe Girardi.
if Girardi was the Rangers manager, Huntie would still be pitching…
GB,
Yea from what I’ve seen it does look like he has the arm strength and that’s the part you can’t teach. He can refine the rest and I really hope and feel like he will get his shot to prove what he can do next year.
Aldo, Gullett’s a good match….as is John Smoltz from the right side or Roger Pavlik from the early 90s Rangers. Lot of stress on the arm, throwing across the body like that. All three of them had significant arm issues.
Montero’s going to be a must see in Tampa next spring. His arm is strong ang pretty accurate. The throws do tend to drift into the runner, but, as you say….footwork and that can be fixed. Posada says he’s a catcher…really likes him behind the plate.
OUCH!!! That’s going to kill the Texas bullpen for the rest of the series.
Montero will have a ton of catching knowledge to pull from in that yankee camp next spring…posada, girardi, Pena, yogi…..im really excited to start seeing him on a regular basis and in the games I saw of him this year I saw nothing to suggest that he couldn’t become a passable catcher in the big leagues.
GB7, exactly what I meant. I hope it’s not the case with Bumgarner. He looks like he has a great future.
How long ’till pitchers and catchers report
? What, three and half months?
“DocTodd says:
October 31, 2010 at 10:00 pm
if Girardi was the Rangers manager, Huntie would still be pitching…”
Ha yeah he would have waited till it was 5-0 but Yankee middle relief was pretty bad but the Rangers have had an inconsistant BP also
LOL, Girardi , another 3 years.
Montero can do no worse than what NYY had this year, though, injuries really took it’s toll on Posada. The Dodgers and San Diego made the PS with Piazza and the Mets got to the Series with Piazza catching. Of couse, the Yanks won a WS or 2 with Posada.
By Mike Axisa
Of course, Montero’s bat was never the question, defense in. Olney discussed some of the things the Yankees are trying to help Montero become a passable catcher, including a unique set of throwing mechanics. Instead of popping up on both feet and firing to second, bench coach Tony Pena and the Yanks have him keeping his right foot in place while taking a short stride with his left foot. It sounds awkward, and I tried it a handful of times in my living room while writing this post, and it’s definitely not a natural feeling. (Disclaimer: I’m most likely less athletic than Montero). Basically, the only way someone could pull this off consistently is if they have a strong arm, which Montero does.
I’m not sure how long he’s been throwing like this, however he did thrown out 32% of attempted basestealers during his Double-A Trenton stint last season. Of course, he caught a grand total of 33 games for the Thunder, so this is statistically insignificant. Montero’s thrown out just 23% of all attempted basestealers during his career, but that number isn’t trustworthy at all because the Yanks don’t emphasize their pitchers holding baserunners at the A-ball level and below. Frankly, we just don’t know how well this has/will work.
The consensus is that Montero will not be a catcher moving forward. However, the Yankees are coming up with creative ways to make it work back there, even if it’s just for the time being. It’s not often catchers jump right into the big league lineup full-time as rookies, so all the Yanks will need Montero to do for the next few years is be able to fake it back there two or three times a week. The bat is so special, none of us will mind the defense.
Only 99 days, Joe.
If gary sanchez turns out to be what everyone thinks he could be then Montero may only have to.catch for.3 years or so…..
A Montero/Sanchez catching duo could be the reason that the AL disbands. That would be rather unfair. Only wish that at least one of them was left handed or a swirch hitter. That’s the biggest issue on the farm. The best of the young hitters are right handed. Probably the best young left handed hitter coming up is Daniel Brewer, with Rob Lyerly right behind him.
These are some impressive numbers for a 17 year old kid that should still be in high school. Only his defense needs cleaning up.
http://www.baseball-reference......nche001gar
Cliff Lee is only going to be extending this thing to a Game 6 where his team will once again be Losers in the W.S.
Gb,
He’s still a long way off but everything I read about him talks about how special he could be. Putting up those numbers at his age is impressive in any league.
Torres having a series.
ball bounces off top of wall – you win the WS, ball hits off top of wall on fly you probably lose. Game of inches…
That’s impressive numbers for high school. I believe that he led the Gulf Coast Rookie League in homers and RBI this year in what amounts to half of a Gulf Coast Rookie League season.
GB7,
Where will Sanchez start 2011…..you think he gets to Charleston sometime next season?
how did Rangers beat Yanks anyway?
or, Yanks could have been swept already by Giants. LOL
Boy that’s an impressive sequence after sitting over there for awhile….black on.outside…..black on inside.corner….slider down.
Bumgarner looking very impressive… shutting down their RH lineup in Arlington
Sanchez finished 2nd in homers and RBI in 70+ at bats fewer than the leaders. It’s the low strikeout total that’s impressive as much as anything else.
http://www.baseball-reference......8;id=15028
Bumgarner is pitching a nice game.
Blake, Sanchez should start in Charleston and follow along with what Montero did at the same age. He might get to Tampa of the FSL by mid-year, but, that’s really rushing him.
Joe from LI, yep, he is pitching a whale of a game…
Big full count pitch…
Man, did he make Vladdy look bad. The change up to finish him was a heck of a pitch.
Hoping the error doesn’t cost them
Gb, so you’re thinking probably a full season in charleston.
Nice pitching to get out of the jam.
That error will cost him about 5-10 pitches. He’s in a jam that he didn’t create. But, pitched out of it like a veteran. Very impressive outing. Gotta let him take the mound in the 8th inning.
Bumgardner has come a long way in a short amount of time….have to credit the Giants system.
Yeah, Blake..that’s my assumption. The Yanks have Higashioka and JR Murphy catching in Tampa next year. All depends on everyone’s progress or injuries. NYYs have a ton of quality young catchers coming up.
I may have to make a trip or two to charleston next year
NYYs has a gold mine stashed away in the minors. Quality young pitchers and quality young catchers. Among the top of any system at both positions.
That ball had some backspin..
Blake, they’ll be in NC a few times, too. You should be able to make a few of those in Greensboro and Kannapolis.
Buck is just horrendous – that ball cleared the wall by 20 feet and he made the call like it was a shallow pop fly. Worst play by play man EVER.
the Rangers better tell that little good luck charm Justin Bieber to get his arse back to Texas immediately!
Gb,
Good call. I’ve been to war memorial in greensboro a time or two.
Not that I like how Buck calls a game, but maybe he was taking his cue from Hamilton. Hamilton treated it, initially, like it was a routine fly, then he starting running faster, and boom…
If Lee gets rocked tomorrow and is out by the 3rd inning are the Yankees still going to offer him the world?
# Jim October 31st, 2010 at 11:00 pm
Buck is just horrendous – that ball cleared the wall by 20 feet and he made the call like it was a shallow pop fly. Worst play by play man EVER.
That ball carried man.
world series is over, freaking boring.
A good announcer would study bp to see how the ball was carrying that day instead of schmoozing with celebrities which was probably what phone it in Buck was doing. I’m still very pissed at Buck for sleeping through the David Tyree superbowl catch…
Not sure how long it is to Ashville or Maryland from you, Blake, but, they’ll play there, too. Isn’t there a ferry that runs out of Newport News or williamburg across the Chesapeake bay to Maryland?
Buck’s call is not that bad at all, compare with EJ’s Tex HR call in ALDS.
If the Giants hold on, they’ll win it in 6 at home w Cain on the mound. Don’t see Lee losing 2 straight starts
if I have to pick, Buck crew is the best among ESPN, FOX and TBS.
LOL
Gb…Asheville isn’t far.. I will.be there when they are in town most likely. Im.not.sure about maryland.
If I had to pick Herpes is the best among the clap, syphillis and genital warts.
The wind changes directions in Texas constantly. You can’t tell when or from what direction it’s going to blow. Watching batting practice 3-4 hours before the game doesn’t help.
On the other hand, if all you have to do in your life is complain about what everyone knows is bad, just put a cork in it, turn down the volumn or switch channels.
What a performance.
I can see leaving Bumgarner start the 9th, if anyone gets on, then Wilson. Bumgarner’s been that dominating.
It’s a pity that Bumgarner won’t get the WS MVP with just one start, but, he certainly has earned it with this game. This is the swing game in the series.
Bumgarner = stud. Ice in his vains
If the Giants hang on and win tonight then winning 3 straight while having to face both Lincecum and Cain and having to go back to SF is a tall order…
At 106 pitches, it’s not likely Bumgarner goes back out….especially at his age, but, it would be great theatre.
This sucks I wanted to see Fear the Beard tonight on Halloween. I hope someone can get on for the Rangers and then have Wilson shut the door on these punks.
blake, yeah. Not impossible (remember the Marlins beating Wood and Prior in 2003), but a tall order.
I’ve heard from several people that pretty much the whole town of Hudson had to talk Madison into going when he got drafted….said he just wanted to stay home……bet he’s glad he listened now.
blake, this should pretty much be the nail in Texas’ coffin. SF will be a madhouse and winning two in a row there is going to be almost impossible when you throw in doing it against Lincecum and Cain. Have stranger things happened in sports? Sure but mostly against overconfident opponents. SF seems pretty damned humble and determined.
If this goes to a game 7, this is the guy that I start over Jonathon Sanchez.
Alright Bochy is going to the Beard. Good Deal.
Giants’ Bumgarner struggling in Triple-A
April, 16, 2010
Apr 16
1:37
PM ET
By Rob Neyer
Aaron Gleeman on Madison Bumgarner, until very recently one of our top pitching prospects:
Certainly plenty of 19-year-old pitchers tire late during a season, so Baseball America ranked him as the game’s 14th-best prospect this season and Bumgarner’s declining velocity wasn’t a huge story until he showed up at spring training to compete for the fifth spot in the Giants’ rotation. His fastball rarely topped the mid-80s and he predictably got rocked for a 6.43 ERA while handing out seven walks with zero strikeouts.
Bumgarner lost the fifth-starter competition to veteran Todd Wellemeyer and reported to Triple-A, where things have gotten even worse. He gave up 11 hits over three innings in his debut last week and was pasted for seven runs on 10 hits in four innings yesterday. Through two starts Bumgarner has a 14.14 ERA and .538 opponents’ batting average after coming into the season with a 27-5 record and 1.65 ERA in the minors.
In the span of just a couple months he’s gone from elite prospect competing for a rotation spot at age 20 to likely midseason call-up to … well, now it’s tough to figure exactly what the Giants plan to do with Bumgarner. His fastball is missing 5-10 miles per hour and Triple-A hitters are teeing off on him. Something clearly isn’t right with him physically at this point and the Giants need to figure it out before things get totally out of hand.
Before things get totally out of hand?
Aaron’s on the right track, but I’m afraid he’s still a half-hearted participant in what looks to me like a mass delusion. Here’s an example, from Baseball America’s “Prospect Handbook” (italics all mine):
At this best, Bumgarner shows a mid-90s fastball … He’s an ornery competitor in the mold of Kevin Brown, and when the Giants needed him to make his major league debut on an hour’s notice, he showed zero fear … Bumgarner pitched at 88-90 mph for most of the second half of last season. A perfectionist, he may have lost velocity because he threw too much on the side … Bumgarner has No. 1 starter potential, and his stuff would play against big leaguers now. He’s just 20, so they’d prefer to let him work in Triple-A to start 2010.
Drink any good Kool-Aid lately?
According to John Sickels — who still rated Bumgarner as “one of the best pitching prospects in the game” — Bumgarner opened last season throwing 90-94 with Class A San Jose, dropped to 87-90 in the summer with Double-A Connecticut, and finished at 85-88 with the Giants in September. In spring training, the Giants let him throw seven innings, in which he recorded seven walks and zero strikeouts. And now he’s throwing cookies in the Pacific Coast League.
I know, I know … “He’s only 20!”
For a pitcher, being 20 should be a good thing. At least a pitcher like Madison Bumgarner. When he was 18 in the Sally League, he struck out 164 in 142 innings, 15-3 record and a 1.46 ERA. A kid like that, you move him quickly and hope he wins some games for the big club before he hurts his arm.
It could have happened last fall. Bumgarner got one start and pitched well, but got stuck with a no-decision when the bullpen gave up a couple of runs. He also pitched a couple of shutout innings in another close game. No wins, though. Or losses. Bumgarner’s record stands at 0-0.
I’m afraid it’s going to be 0-0 for quite some time. I’m afraid this goes beyond “something clearly isn’t right with him physically at this point …” I’m afraid he’s hurt. I’m sure the Giants would tell you that they’ve run all sorts of tests and they can’t find anything and it’s just a mechanical thing, and blah blah blah I’ve heard it all before. This kid’s probably been lighting up radar guns since he was in the ninth grade, and now all of a sudden he’s throwing 87 and all he needs to do is keep his elbow a little higher during his delivery?
Maybe. But probably not.
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweets.....-bumgarner
Wilson’s coming in. Great performance from Bumgarner.
I guess Bumgardner found himself again; last year he’d lost velocity – wonder what happened? Either way, It appears the Rangers are not winning the WS – good.
It would be tough but the Rangers do have Lee going tomorrow so they certainly can win that game and if they could get it to a game 7 then they’d have Lewis (who has been great) vs either Sanchez or a short rest Bumgardner……the game that would be a problem would be game 6 with Cain but Wilson is capable of pitching well….it would be a tough task but not impossible.
I don’t think Bumgardner’s situation is applicable to every young starter – especially since he was either hurt or very tired or whatever. Something happened to him physically and he’s rebounded. Clearly when he was “healthy”, he was destined to be a #1 – all that’s happened is that he’s rebounded remarkably to be a tremendous young pitcher at the ripe young age of 21.
Typical rob neyer cluelessness…
Rangers got stuffed, pure and simple.
And on that note, g’night, all.
Love those expert opinions from those that most likely have never seen them, CB. That’s why I never pay a lot of attention to them. I expected reports like that about Yankee prospects, but, not other teams.
That’s just an unbelievable outing from a 21 year old kid.
At this time only one year ago Bumgarner looked like garbage as a pitcher and many people thought he was done as being a legitimate prospect.
People were going as far as comparing him to Jesse Foppert.
People are forever trying to make pronouncements about young pitchers and ultimately you just have to wait and see.
They do not follow straight line paths in their development. And that makes trying to predict what they’ll do very difficult.
Blake, with Lee going tomorrow night, that’s why I thought this was the swing game and not the 3rd game.
Blake, what’s wrong with what he wrote? Back then, there were concerns about Bumgardner………..and now there aren’t.
Is everybody now impressed with the Giants now ????
GO Giants!!!! Love it!!!
blake – yeah, agree. The pitching matchups make is possible. Hard to see this Giants team losing 3 in a row, 2 at home, though. I do think this is going back to SF anyway.
That was a very similar performance to Andy Pettitte in ’96 WS. Both Game 5, Pettitte went 8.1 and gave up 4 hits. Bumgartner 8 and 3 hits. Both shutouts.
Yankees Win !
It now appears that Bumgarner was throwing too much between his starts in the minor leagues and that was causing too much fatigue in his arm.
Hard to believe the Giants minor league coaching staff allowed that to happen but it appears that they did.
And this past winter Sabean said that the problem was that Bumgarner was getting distracted and wasn’t working hard and that was the problem.
It wasn’t that the Giants minor league development system was allowing Bumgarner to overthrow to the point of fatigue – the problem was that Bumgarner wasn’t working hard enough.
Player development in baseball is head scratching.
At age 19-21, I never really worry what a young pitcher does, especially when they pitch in leagues that are above what his age/experience should dictate. Banuelos and Ramirez come immediately to mind. You’re talking about high school age. When they do well, your eyes snap wide open. Hitters of that age group do the same thing…your jaw drops.
If Bumgarner had had those issues at age 22-23, then you have reasons for some concern, but, certainly not enough to drop them off of a cliff.
All props to Pat M, who called it about San Francisco from the get-go . . . As a Yankees fan, I’m truly sorry they didn’t do their part, but given that big disappointment, this is the next best thing!!! Go get ‘em tomorrow night Timmy!!!!
“They do not follow straight line paths in their development. And that makes trying to predict what they’ll do very difficult.”
For sure. In fact, it is probably rarer for young pitchers to have a straight upwards trajectory than it is an uneven one.
Even young pitchers who have success in the big leagues after a season or two often take a step back, then take a huge step forward the following year. Just no way to know.
Pat M. October 31st, 2010 at 11:34 pm
Is everybody now impressed with the Giants now ????
———————————————————————————————————————-
More shocked than impressed, Pat.
Betsy,
Because he was attempting to analyze a 19-20 year old kid….
I should have said that I’m too shocked to be impressed.
Assuming the Yankees got in instead of the Rangers. Could they beat the Giants?
One only hopes that Bumgarner doesn’t have a Steve Blass/Rick Ankiel follow-up next year.
Don’t see how people could just now be impressed with the Giants.
They always had the pitching.
The team just need to get in the postseason. The Giants are built perfectly for the postseason with the pitching/BP.
Blake, when your a top prospect, you get analyzed…………..that’s just how it is. In this case, I can’t say that I blame the pundits for wondering about Bumgardner.
Everyone loved David Price this season. At this time only last year after Price had an up and down first year in the rotation people were off the Price band wagon because he was basically a one pitch pitcher – he had that fastball and that was mostly it.
His slider was loose and “slurvy” (which it was and still can be) and his change up and curve were almost non-existent.
Could Price be an ace? Supposedly it was no longer clear a year ago.
This season the players vote him the best pitcher in the AL and he has a shot to win the Cy Young.
Making definitive statements about what a young, talented pitchers ultimate ability is going to be is often folly.
Things like Price and Bumgarner’s development trajectories happen all of the time.
But it takes patience and a detached view of their performance over a season or two or three in order to make a balanced evaluation.
I never doubted the giants could pitch…but I am a little surprised they have been able to produce as much offense as they have.
Its never about what one has accomplished, its always about what he has not done.
Patience? In young payers? In NY? Where did this idea come from?
Note to Nolan Ryan – don’t enlist a war criminal to throw your fist pitch – bad mojo.
“Blake, when your a top prospect, you get analyzed…………..that’s just how it is.”
And that often leads to people making silly and even stupid conclusions which are often based on limited samples during which the young pitcher is still developing and not following a straight path from A to Z.
But everything now is about instantaneous judgments and snap opinions. The patience and level-headedness needed to fully evaluate and allow a pitcher to develop is very rare.
“The team just need to get in the postseason. The Giants are built perfectly for the postseason with the pitching/BP.”
Exactly. Every year for the past 2-3 years, people have said “Nobody wants to see the Giants in the playoffs with that pitching”. Except prior to this year, they never got into the playoffs.
It’s amazing how that offense was put together though… a rookie clean-up hitter and casts off that were picked up mid-season (or ST invites) that nobody wanted… Huff, Burrell, Ross, Renteria, Uribe, etc.
Actually, not one single player in their everyday NL lineup was on the team prior to last year.
Shocking that the two best pitchers on these two teams have pitched the worst game of the 4.
# GreenBeret7 October 31st, 2010 at 11:49 pm
Patience? In young payers? In NY? Where did this idea come from?
Phil Hughes! Brett Gardner! D-Rob! Joba!
You can even add Montero to the list.
“Yankees can’t trust a rookie with a 100 million dollar pitching staff!!”
CB, maybe so, but how long do you wait on a young player? Eventually, they become not so young anymore.
CB, maybe so, but how long do you wait on a young player? Eventually, they become not so young anymore.
It’s funny too because Bumgarner doesn’t even throw the ball well mechanically. Or at least he throws it very oddly.
He has a relatively long arm action as he catapults the ball to the plate and winds up throwing a lot across his body. The throwing across his body is particularly troublesome.
That’s often a recipe for inconsistent command and arm injuries.
But Bumgarner looks to be the exception to the generalization.
CB, Bumgarner’s motion was discussed a little bit earlier. The names of pitchers that threw like thae were John Smoltz, Roger Pavlik and Don Gullett. There are others, but, those are just two across the body throwers that had long histories of elbow injuries.
Betsy, you are making some excellent points again. People just don’t understand your keen eye for recognizing young pitching talent. Hatas gonna hate!
Delivery is the one thing that I’d be concerned about with Lincecum, too. There has to be a tremendous amount of strain on his arm.
I remember Bumgardner’s arm slot being higher when I saw him a few years ago….not straight over the top but a little higher than it currently is. His offspeed stuff and command have come a mile since then.
Blake, did you see him in high school?
“but how long do you wait on a young player? Eventually, they become not so young anymore.”
There’s no rule. As long as it takes. You just have to watch them and see how they grow. And that often is only tangentially related to the results they produce. But people don’t want to sit through that process.
And now it’s not like young pitchers are given any slack in most big markets. It’s not like fans and the media are waiting until they are 27 or 28 or even 26. People have definitive opinions by the time the kid is 24 or 25.
This year was particularly funny in this regard. I’ve already mentioned Price. But there were a number of other similar cases. A year ago Red Sox fans were fed up with Clay Buchholz. Nibbles. Scared to throw the ball to the plate. Poor pace. Gets far too distracted once a man gets on base, etc., etc., etc.
Now he’s the darling of baseball, the future ace of that staff and Cy Young contender.
A year ago even the guys who loved Bucchholz the most like Callis had jumped off that train.
Learning how to pitch in the big leagues is one of the hardest things any athlete in a team sport is up against.
Fans and the media and even teams expect there to be a coherent path with their development that goes from A to B to C to …. Z = he’s an ace!
But it just doesn’t work that way. Often times you start out at M and then wind up back at C and then you jump to K and then to S, etc.
Delivery and just his size would concern me long term regarding Lincecum….he may prove me dead wrong but I just don’t see that holding up over the years.
The Yanks can start talking to Lee and Huff by as early as next Saturday.
Gb7, yea a couple times. His high school was in mines conference…
But it just doesn’t work that way. Often times you start out at M and then wind up back at C and then you jump to K and then to S, etc.
———————————————————————————————————————-
Roy Halladay?
GB7, I saw him on his travel team, his arm slot back then was at 67.314 degrees, then when he went to high school it went to 68.3141 degrees, then in the minors it went to 69.31415 degrees then in the majors it has been a steady 70.3141592 degrees. Comparatively, Sid Finch was at 70.31415926 so there is not much difference between the two. I think over time you’ll see it change slightly.
“but, those are just two across the body throwers that had long histories of elbow injuries.”
We still don’t have a great understanding about what causes pitchers to get hurt. It may just mostly be genetics.
But one of the things that I do think seems to be on the mark is throwing across your body. It helps because it gives the ball more movement. But it really does seem to cause significant injuries to the arm.
And Bumgarner does really throw across his body.
But there’s no perfect pitcher.
And for tonight he was just phenomenal. The future is completely secondary tonight.
Night all…tomorrow’s game should be interesting.with Lee pitching to.keep the Rangers alive
yeah let’s hope the Giants finish off the Texas Ginger Ales. The Cowboys, then the Rangers, gotta love it.
CB, thanks. Well, the odds on a young pitcher making it are probably not great, so if one or two of our youngsters make it, we’re in good shape. Now if we can develop a top of the rotation starter, that would be fantastic. Of course with CC there, if we don’t, it won’t matter…………and hopefully we’ll have Lee.
CB…Your assessment of Clay sounds much like the criticism of Joba the past 2 seasons….Do you give him one more look as a starter providing he gets himself prepared for that role ??? Great arm, great talent, maybe if he displays the desire and commitment ……Make that my criticism…
Seems that most pitchers that throw across their bodies also happen to be wrappers…where their throwing arm wraps around behind their back and then whip the ball. There is nothing but bad that can come from that type of motion.
I always look at pitchers like Ryan and Koufax. Everything was over the top and as Koufax called it, a series of pullies and levers.
Betsy, Agreed!
I hope Dellin takes Andy’s spot in the rotation assuming Andy stays another year.
David Phelps is further advanced as a pitcher than Betances is.
# GreenBeret7 November 1st, 2010 at 12:20 am
David Phelps is further advanced as a pitcher than Betances is.
I haven’t heard much about Phelps.
Do you know of a comparable major league pitcher?
“Seeing W throw out the first pitch tonight I can’t help but remember 9 years ago when he stood on the rubber at yankee stadium and threw a perfect strike in the wake of 9/11….whether you liked him or not that was impressive.”
That and ducking that shoe are two true high points of his career.
“.Do you give him one more look as a starter providing he gets himself prepared for that role ??? Great arm, great talent, maybe if he displays the desire and commitment”
Pat M.,
Joba really is in this in between stage now where it’s hard to know what’s going to happen. He has a lot of talent and you can’t just dismiss him.
For me the most important thing with Joba is that he gets back to being able to repeat his mechanics better.
He simply does not throw the ball the same way not only from appearance to appearance but even pitch to pitch.
If Joba can get back to doing that I’d definitely reconsider him for the rotation. If he can’t demonstrate that he’s likely going to be inconsistent and a problem in the rotation.
Now it could be that without a lot of repetitions he can’t become more consistent with the way he throws. But that’s a tough issue for a team that’s trying to win a world series to take a chance on.
For the near term future it really depends on whether Andy comes back and if they can sign Lee. If they can then the rotation is set.
I’m more concerned about Joba throwing the ball in a more consistent fashion mechanically than I am in his role.
Mussina, other than pitching from the stretch. A power pitcher with a finesse pitcher’s mind. 5 pitches. 2 and 4 seam fastball, slider, change and hard curve. Hits around 95 MPH but stay pretty much around 82-93.
Too bad the Giants are going to win; after a clip I just heard from Chris Russo on with Don Imus, I’m hoping the Rangers come back and put a dagger in his heart.
The way the Giants are handling the Rangers really makes this Yankee team look like a bunch of grumpy old men. Maybe they need to make a bucket list.
I am rooting for SF because I used to live in the Bay Area, and because I think we’ve got a better chance at obtaining Lee if TEX lose.
******************
The Yankees this year never really played like a championship team. Yes, I know they had the best record in baseball for the majority of the season, but they just never seemed to have a spark this year.. any body else? I mean sheesh man, this season was such a sleeper to watch. CC, Andy and Hughes.. sensational all year. Cano and Swish carried the team offensively.. I Know Arod and Tex didn’t finish with bad stats overall, but generally this team was very boring to watch this year.
******************
Overall, most of the team under-performed offensively this year, way too hot and cold all season, and If this is a sign of our core team getting older and in decline — which we all know would eventually happen — then we need to get a bat just as bad as we do Lee. Granted, Lee in P-Stripes in 2011.. WOW! However, what defines this team is the history of offense.. I don’t want this team to be just a top heavy bunch of aces.. I miss the Bernie clutch, the Giambi monster shots, the Sheffield Line drives and the fear he brought to the plate, the AROD we know and the Jeter we know.. I want some offense for 2011 just as bad as I want Lee. Let’s face it, times are changing and Al Leiter said it best when he retired, “my head kept telling me that I can still compete like I was 25, but my body wasn’t listening”.
I’ll close with this.. Joe Girardi is a scared little baby. He is not man enough to be a coach of the NYY. As much as we second guessed him this year, he was second guessing himself. He didn’t make a lot of friends with the media this year, and next year it won’t be tolerated. I still can’t believe he wouldn’t move Jeter or Tex around in the lineup. That is just not okay.. just because somebody was in the 1 or 2 spot for most their career doesn’t mean that when they get older they’re guaranteed to stay there. Last year Jeter said, “I don’t care where I hit, as long as it’s 1,2 or 3rd. Hah.. no thanks Derek, you’re going to have to prove that in 2011 ! You’ll always be my favorite Yankee too, and I might eve shed a tear when you retire, but please do not get greedy and tax the Yankees because of your name and fantasies and stop us from obtaining Lee and Crawford..
Okay, I am done for now ! If you read all that thank you !
Chris Russo is still alive?
***92-93 MPH*** for David Phelps.
If we get Lee and Andy retires, no way I put Joba in the rotation (or another kid). I do think the Yankees gave up on him as a starter too soon, but unless they send him down for a year of reworking at the ML level, I just don’t see where there’s room for him – not in 2011 at any rate. Problem is, by the time 2012 rolls around, he’ll really be on innings limits
Russo is alive and kicking, Rich – I was just googling stuff and I saw someone had posted a video of this guy on with Imus. Ugh – he truly is too vulgar to deserve a WS team.
More boring crap and too long to read after the first paragraph.
# GreenBeret7 November 1st, 2010 at 12:32 am
Mussina, other than pitching from the stretch. A power pitcher with a finesse pitcher’s mind. 5 pitches. 2 and 4 seam fastball, slider, change and hard curve. Hits around 95 MPH but stay pretty much around 82-93.
Thanks.
With pitchers you have to wait til about 600 innings or so,sometimes a little sooner,sometimes earlier.
Some pitchers start off grat,then struggle for a few years,then settle down.
Hughes has pitched 369 innings in the majors so by 2011 or 2012 we should have a pretty good idea of what he is.
There are no shortcuts a pitcher or a fan can take to speed the process up,you just have to be patient.
He’s dead to me, Betsy.
He piss you off, Rich?
Anyway, it’s not like I’ve thought about him in ages, but it’s one reason why I don’t like the Giants. He wasn’t necessarily wrong in what he said, but it’s how he said it. The idea of him celebrating a WS makes me not so happy.
Betsy
Nah, he’s just a smug moron who smashed the Peter Principle to smitherines.
Kevin Long, which was to be expected, signed a new deal with the Yankees.
good morning early birds! Hope you all had a Happy Halloween. We went thru 13 bags of candy bars despite the cold and windy weather.
Kate-
” We went thru 13 bags of candy bars despite the cold and windy weather.”
And how many did the kids get to eat ?
Good morning, all.
upstate kate -
wow – you sure had a lot of trick or treaters! We had three waves – late afternoon, early evening and then a small wave later in the evening. Not as many teens late as we thought there’d be.
The little ones are so adorable!! The older ones crack me up – a Yankee shirt passes for a costume – but they still want the candy!
it was fun.
I knew the Giants pitching was good, but I wasn’t sure how it would hold up against the hot offense of the Rangers. Wow. Sure cooled them off.
Maybe it’s not all NL pitchers you need to avoid bringing into the AL; you just have to be careful which ones.
haha, the kids got the first 13, the 14th bag went to the snickers eater in the house
After Bumgarner’s performance at barely 21, I think we have to stop thinking about Phil as a young pitcher
Posey too for that matter.
Kate-
Not surprisingly, we live in a seniors community.
The trick or treat here is that you get to live to see another day or not.
Candy is secondary. Sure miss seeing the little ones around. They are
incredibly cute.
MTU November 1st, 2010 at 7:43 am
Kate-
Not surprisingly, we live in a seniors community.
The trick or treat here is that you get to live to see another day or not.
Candy is secondary. Sure miss seeing the little ones around. They are
incredibly cute.
———————————————————————————————————————-
Did you hand out Viagra?
GB-
LOL. It would most of them instantly.
“kill most”. Duh. It’s way too early. sorry.
It was funnier without the “kill most”.
I was having fun trying to figure out what you was saying.
you guys are awake way too early for no good reason
GB-
On a more serious note. I was looking back at last night’s discussions on young pitchers. Some very interesting stuff.
Patience with our young arms is not a Yankees strong suit yet it is part of the development process.
Pressure to win makes for short time horizons.
Looking forward to a really, really good new pitching coach.
What do you think of Rick Peterson ?
Kate, I had to get up just to mess with MTU. Of course, he has to get up pretty early to get to me. I suggest that he try staying up all night.
MTU
Aw come on now…you know you were dressed up going around collecting candy last night.
Kate,
Hopefully we will have our own 21 year old kid making an impact next October….
MTU, I’d prefer someone who knows something about the kids in the system and moreover knows something about the team. That leaves Peterson out. Much prefer Aldred. Gil Patterson is the Oakland pitching coordinator, and may become their pitching coach.
GB-
I appreciate your thoughfulness.
If you keep this up I may have to put in a call to a certain female Nurse to tell her just how much you miss her company.
Blake-
“Aw come on now…you know you were dressed up going around collecting candy last night.”
I’m not going to help you make enough to build your second Mansion.
Don’t you think one is enough ?
MTU,
Lol…halloween does help keep us busy.
Rich, I forget what the Peter Principal is. Either way, he is a jerk…………..a vulgar, clownish-sounding, bitter, anti-Yankee jerk.
I know the Giants have a good pitching staff, but it is amazing to me how they have shut down the Rangers. I heard an interview w/ Bumgarner where he said he thought about the pressure he faced in an important HS game, and that helped him to deal w/ the pressure of the WS.
Kate, I think once they hit about 25 or 26, they’re really not considered THAT young
Blake-
I bet it does.
When I think of the combo of braces and chewy candy it’s downright scary.
I guess you’re used to such horrifying scenes though. Worse than an emergency room.
It’s a very stciky situation for a Dentist to be in. I wish you luck.
“sticky”. I got Gb’ed again. sorry.
Halloween???? Yesterday was halloween??? Darn, never would have known. All I got to enjoy was a 12 hour workday. Oh well, at least I got to live another day as MTU would say.
JCPD-
You’ll be on to greener pastures before you know it.
Yesterday you just got the “trick”.
Next you’re gonna get the “treat”.
Belated Happy Halloween,
It is a non holiday where we are in AZ. New York is different, but we weren’t there.
The world series is not going the way I expected, but frankly I don’t care. Kind of sad.
Hope you all had a good weekend. Our trip to NY was successful.
MTU, I’m certainly hoping.
MTU,
You think this thing is going back to SF? I expect Lee to be much better tonight but I also expect Timmy to be good as well….I think if those two guys cancel each other out then the Giants close it out tonight as the Rangers shaky pen is now down one of their better arms.
Clifford will probably have to put this one on his shoulders to get them back to Cali.
Attention everyone: Brian Bruney month is finally over. Welcome to Mark Teixeira month.
SAS-
Glad you had a safe trip.
I hear some of the desert plants like to dress up as Cacti for Halloween and hide in the bushes.
For the trick, they always hope you’ll fall on them.
For the treat, you get to avoid them.
That’s the West for ya. Strange place indeed.
I noticed in Cliff Lee’ s presser last night that he had shaved…..foreshadowing?
Blake-
Lee is going to have to be “Clifford the Great”. That’s for sure.
Another great pitching matchup.
There have been many.
Lee likes money so I think he’ll show everyone the goods one more time.
Lincecum isn’t isn’t exactly warmed over mashed potatoes either.
I think he has killer instinct too.
Good pitching stops good hitting. Proof positive this post season.
It’s a tossup.
JCPD-
Me too. I like when good things happen.
Hi SAS
We live right in town, so we get of out of town kids by the car load. Our dog loves Halloween, she thinks all the kids are coming to see her…she actually wandered off a few times following them.
Just got back from a long weekend visiting my Mom in hot and sunny FLA…not much Halloween activity there either. I had to make her watch some of the series, since her team isn’t playing, she doesn’t care, altho she hates the Giants from her Brooklyn Dodger days
What’s happening to Texas is the same thing that happened to the Yankees. SF caught their entire team cold. Texas has a better rotation and bullpen than they’ve shown and certainly has a better offense than SF. It happens to every team and no matter how good they are, nobody knows when or why it happens.
A pitching coach should be announced this week along with the rest of the coaching staff.
Budget decisions made within the next 2 days.
Cashman to meet with his pro scouts and minor league top people to make decisions on the 40-man roster.
If the ‘Frisco Giants wrap up the WS tonight, talks with free agents can begin before the end of the week.
GB-
The crapshoot of the post season ?
More R and D dollars need to go into researching why teams suddenly go cold without warning.
Or maybe they should just buy more crystal balls, quija boards, and rabbit’s feet.
Betsy, the Peter Principle was something that Laurence J. Peter and Raymond Hull came up with back in the late ’60s that states “in a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to their level of incompetence”, and wrote a book by that title..
GB-
Or maybe the Yankees could make a deal with the Government of Ireland ?
We promise to send them a lifetime supply of 4-leaf clovers in return for them shipping us the “Blarney stone” to put out in Monument Park.
It might work.
MTU, all they need to do is listen to the trolls, “Because you (Yankees) suck”. Saves a bunch of money and gets the BS out of the way.
They playoffs are a crap shoot to some extent and with the wild card its just extremely difficult to get and stay hot enough to win 3 straight series against good teams….
That’s why the Yankees run of going to the WS 6 of 8 years and winning 4 of them is so amazing….
Everyone knows that slumps are caused by the manager, pitching coach, hitting coach, Rodriguez and Teixeira….regardless of the team. They’re always the cause.
Glad to hear K. Long is back in the fold, looks like for three years:
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports.....Turrb7krGI
Texas played out of their minds against the Yankees. They were never that good; the Yanks were never that bad. Now the tables are turned. Couldn’t be happier.
GB-
Yeah. I guess so. Far simpler.
I really don’t think Ireland is gonna go for my “deal” on the Blarney stone.
There’s too much riding on keeping it. I guess that just how it rolls sometimes.
Yep. A rolling blarney stone gathers no crap.
GB-
As Yogi once said, “Slumps are caused by a lack of hitting. ”
GB-
Yogi also said, “Losing is caused by a lack of winning.”
The Man sure knew how to cut to the chase.
Disclaimer:
The above 2 quotes attributed by me to Yogi may or may not be real.
However, they may reflect waht Yogi might have thought on those subjects.
Yogi also said, “Baseball is 90 percent mental. The other half is physical.”
And if you think about it, he’s absolutely right.
New Post: Young and old