The pitching market beyond Cliff Lee
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Nov 03, 2010 
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It took only a few minutes for the first Erik Bedard email arrive. Today, the Mariners declined an option on Bedard, making the left-handed starter a free agent. Could he work as a risk-reward signing for the Yankees?
Sure. But the Yankees already have a lot of high-upside starting pitchers fighting for rotation spots in Scranton/Wilkes-Barre and Trenton. Obviously Bedard is a different sort of pitcher, but he comes with more or less the same level of uncertainty as a prospect. Is he really a better option than Ivan Nova? Maybe. Maybe not.
Truth is, every non-Cliff Lee free agent starting pitcher comes with some level of uncertainty.
Bronx Baseball Daily came up with a list of Lee alternatives. It begins with Hiroki Kuroda and ends with Pedro Martinez, which says a lot about the market. The trade market — beginning with the idea of making a deal for Zack Greinke — comes with considerable unknowns.
MLBTradeRumors posted lists of left-handed and right-handed free agent starters. There are some upside options with plenty of talent, but Lee is the only reliable option who’s obviously available. The rest, like Bedard, bring as many questions as answers.
Erik Bedard to the bullpen ?
Ruby aka Vineyard aka BobbyCA…I thought you were going to stop that act?
cliff lee or bust.
ivan nova is a better option compared to bedard.
i would rather have nova on the hill because from what we saw this past season, he might be the goods.
Feel bad for Mariners’ fans – they have had some awful management/GMs this past decade:
Bedard trade cost them Adam Jones and company
Cliff Lee brought them back Casey Kotchman 2.0
relied to heavily on Ryan Anderson – who I believed just finished culinary school
Jeff Clement turned into a bust
They dump Carlos Silva for Milton Bradley – and then Silva does respectable in NL (what are they doing signing Silva to begin w/)
They release their one lone power hitter again now in Russell Branyan – who they are just going to trade for again midseason
They draft Brandon Morrow over Tim Lincencum – who pitched in Washington prior to be drafted – AND add insult injury – Jack Zombie trades Morrow last offseason for Brandon League and now Morrow is finally put it all together
They overpay for Chone Figgins – and then badly move him to a position – moving Lopez off his position – who is now probably not coming back to the club
That franchise has just done a job on their fan base – the last time they really hit it big was posting for Ichiro, signing Felix Hernandez as an IFA, and then maybe the Franklin Gutierrez trade was a minor victory. Other than that though – they have really done it to themselves and their poor fans.
Go with Nova and the kids…if you get Lee, there’s little reason to risk on the Bedard type of guys unless they come very cheap.
I do feel bad for Mariner fans.
Then I remember they have a retractable roof. Sympathy time over.
Stoneburner. Interesting take on Seattle, well done. It’s ironic that they have had/have arguably the best hitter and pitcher in baseball on their team and just couldn’t build from that. Now Ichiro is 37 years old.
Bedard? In NY? With his attitude and injury history? I don’t think so….
From Insider:
With Yu Darvish staying home for at least one more season, Hisashi Iwakuma is the top Japanese player likely to come to the United States this winter, and his bidding starts this week, tweets NPB Tracker’s Patrick Newman.
Iwakuma, 29, is a right-hander that has finished among the top ERA contenders in Japan four straight seasons. He’s not a big strikeout artist, but Newman reports Iwakuma’s Japanese club, the Rakuten Golden Eagles, are hoping for $16-17 million.
Considering the economic state of Major League Baseball, there is a chance that number is pushing it and ultimately proves to be far more than any clubs willing to spend simply for the rights to sign him to a contract.
It’s difficult to believe that the Golden Eagles would accept much less than $10 million or so, however, which means there is a chance Iwakuma stays in Japan another year.
Larry Stone of the Seattle Times wonders if the Mariners will make a play for Iwakuma because of the Japanese ties in team ownership.
While there has been persistent speculation in the Japanese media that the M’s will be a player for Iwakuma, who could fill Seattle’s need for a No. 2 pitcher behind Felix Hernandez, Stone says the Mariners don’t appear to have much money to spend this winter.
Bedard? Better than Nova? I say absolutely yes if reasonably priced. I like that pickup.
I feel bad for Mariner fans.
Then I picture Ken Griffey Jr rounding 3rd circa 1995. My sympathy then escapes me.
I know some folks were pushing for Branyan on here….the M’s have till tomorrow night to decide on him and Jose Lopez
Iwakuma is a joke and old news. His fastball barely hits 90 MPH and he has a history of injuries. Pitching with a MLB baseball would be a recipe for disaster. El Paso.
Bedard has HAD a ton of potential …
I’d say after ten or so yrs in the league he hasn’t come close to fulfilling the potential…….
Caesar says……..NO
I guess I should backtrack – my intention is not so much that I feel bad for the Mariners’ fan – my hope is that the Mariners’ fan somehow reads my post – and then rallies the rest of the fans – they storm the Mariners’ front office with pitchforks and demand GM Jack Zombie to answer for his baseball management crimes. Yes, I am still bitter about July and have a long memory.
More old news. The Mariners already cut ties with Branyan and Lopez.
Abe Peterham – What about if you could get him for a bargain basement price?
For once – I do not have a bone to pick with Baseball America – the advanced look at the top 10 for Yankees prospects look about right – though – as of right now – do you rank Heathcott higher than Warren? IDK – I guess I will open that up for debate. . . .
Abe Peterham November 3rd, 2010 at 7:32 pm
Bedard has HAD a ton of potential …I’d say after ten or so yrs in the league he hasn’t come close to fulfilling the potential…….
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FYI – 6 years plus 2 games
Cito Culver, Angelo Gumbs, M. Williams, Wilmer Ramos – sneaky good on acquiring up the middle, athletic prospects – this is circa what they did about the catching and RHP situation three years ago. . . .
West Coast Yankee Fan November 3rd, 2010 at 7:33 pm
More old news. The Mariners already cut ties with Branyan and Lopez.
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I’m sure to some it wasn’t.
T Will to Favors looking pretty good
**** Wilmer Romero ****
“While it is not our intent to negotiate the terms of Derek’s free-agent contract in a public forum,” Casey Close told FanHouse, “we do agree with Hal’s and Brian (Cashman, the GM)’s recent comments that this contract is about business and winning championships.
“Clearly, baseball is a business, and Derek’s impact on the sport’s most valuable franchise cannot be overstated. Moreover, no athlete embodies the spirit of a champion more than Derek Jeter.”
http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2010/1.....verstated/
Jeter contract…
1. No longer worthy to be leadoff anymore. Plus the 162 game grind does wear on him.
2. Gardner a better choice for leadoff at this point.
3. Jeter will work very hard this winter, and will I believe rebound from 2010.
4. Jeter is smart, and sensitive to the Yankees tradition and objectives. Thus, he won’t ask for or expect anything that is more than his value to the team. This includes what he believes he will be able to accomplish on the field and off.
5. Jeter of obvious value in any kind of figurehead and/or PR role, maybe even grooming for future manager.
So my guess of his performance the next 3 yrs:
2011- .305/.375/.420/.795 (slightly exceeding 2008)
2012- .300/.365/.410/.775 (starting to decline again)
2013- .285/.345/.390/.735 (negative talk & anxiety will start again)
After that, there are too many uncertainties- he might have another small surge, or he might not even have enough pop to be a worthy bench player. I expect his defense will show a similar pattern- some improvement next year, then slow decline.
Contract- 3 yrs at $15, with a “personal services option” for the 4th year.
Jeter will sign a 3/$15MM or 4/$20MM contract.
Clarification: That’s 3 yrs @ $15MM/per, or 4 yrs @ $20MM/per.
Earlier there was some discussion about Joba’s standing in the organization in regards to starting again.
GB is spot on in that Joba is the true determinant of that. If Joba spends his offseason in AZ at the athletes institute dedicated to improving his stamina flexibility and overall conditioning with Hughsie and improving his mechanics, command and repeatablity he most certainly can thrust himself right back into the discussion and grab a starters spot depending on who signs/resigns.
The most vocal objector to Joba the starter, Eiland, is no longer with the team. Cash continues to refer to Joba as a potential starter because I believe he still sees the potential and ceiling as being inside of him.
Joba will decide what he wants his career to be. At least his career story with the Yanks….
“…..Moreover, no athlete embodies the spirit of a champion more than Derek Jeter.”
Sure but can his spirit hit better than .270 and slug better than .370 ?
Baseball is a what have you done for me lately business but Derek Jeter would be one exception to the rule but …….up to a point. The Steinbrenners & directors are willing to reward him for past feats but at the same time they don’t want to hear or read about the fanbase up in arms over declining skills as he ages and the contract thrown in their faces.
It’s not the average contract discussion involved. Certain realities have to be understood by both parties and common ground reached. It can’t nor will it get ugly. Neither side wants such a thing to happen.
It’s gaining momentum and it’s better settled sooner rather than later.
Mariano’s contract will be easier. His may be similar to Andy Pettitte’s contract, year to year.
Eiland was not the main determiner of Joba’s role. It was Billy Eppler as well as others and was obviously signed off on by Cashman. IMO Joba does not have what it takes to be an effective starter.
From the “It is High” blog….
A little Carl Paladino/Taco Bell commercial mash-up.
http://i55.photobucket.com/alb.....-carl2.jpg
pat -
That sounds like this is going to be so much fun…..
The most vocal objector to Joba the starter, Eiland, is no longer with the team. Cash continues to refer to Joba as a potential starter because I believe he still sees the potential and ceiling as being inside of him
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Cash was on with Francesa a week or so ago and said Joba is a reliever.
Jeter is looking for a big payday because Rent is Too Damn High!
I applaud Casey Close for doing what a good agent does. Hal made public comments on Jeter and Close responded. Message to Hal. You aren’t going to control the narrative. Good job by Close.
Doreen
Just a hunch but I’m guessing Cash and Close go stealth from here on out because the public posturing isn’t making either side look good.
CC front row of Nets game.
“Just a hunch but I’m guessing Cash and Close go stealth from here on out because the public posturing isn’t making either side look good. ”
but if they go stealth mode then Heyman will just have to make more stuff up….
Would you expect anything different from a sports agent, and in this case an easy to support icon? Good job, LMAO
Blake. What did Heyman make up?
Timmy was humiliated earlier and now is pouting. : (
“Blake. What did Heyman make up?”
“industry sources suggest” that Jeter could ask for six years”…..translation: I talked to a dude that works for a team that thinks Jeter could ask for six years…..but I’m going to tweet it and everyone will talk about on TV.
I want no part of Bedard. He wants to play hockey, not pitch.
pat
I sure hope so.
I think Ed Price did a good job articulating what Close might be saying to Hal behind closed doors to quantify Jeter’s value outside the lines:
“Would the team have been able to charge $2,500 for front-row seats without the presence of Jeter? Or would the $1.2 billion stadium even have been built without Jeter’s contributions on the field, and his star power away from it? And what is the value of the rating the Yankees’ YES Network will get early next season as he chases 3,000 hits (he needs 74)”.
blake November 3rd, 2010 at 8:41 pm
“Blake. What did Heyman make up?”
“industry sources suggest” that Jeter could ask for six years”…..translation: I talked to a dude that works for a team that thinks Jeter could ask for six years…..but I’m going to tweet it and everyone will talk about on TV.
**********
Gotcha’. I thought there was something else I didn’t see.
3rd time my name has been mentioned on this blog. Did I ever call you by name? Humiliatedj, far from it.
“Would the team have been able to charge $2,500 for front-row seats without the presence of Jeter?”
Is he talking about the seats that sold for 2,500$ then got quickly reduced to 1,250$ after no one bought them?
I
Laura – I Bleed Blue November 3rd, 2010 at 8:42 pm
I want no part of Bedard. He wants to play hockey, not pitch.
……………………………………….
That ship has long since sailed. We’ll see Sidney Ponson fitted for a Yankee uniform before Erik Bedard ever sets foot in a Yankee clubhouse.
LGY November 3rd, 2010 at 8:26 pm
Cash was on with Francesa a week or so ago and said Joba is a reliever.
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The June 2009 version of Cashman would disagree with the November 2010 version. Anyone else remember this from Newsday, June 2009?:
CLEVELAND – Brian Cashman understands that the move-Joba-back-to-the-bullpen talk will always percolate when issues arise with the Yankees’ relief pitching. “It’s just a topic we have to deal with,” the general manager said Friday afternoon.
But the logic behind some of that talk is what bemuses Cashman somewhat. “If he’s throwing 95 in the first inning, let people throw that argument out there,” he said. “We haven’t seen that yet, so why would they think that’s going to suddenly happen by going to the bullpen?”
Some say Chamberlain paces himself as a starter. Some have argued that he brings an adrenaline rush out of the bullpen, an argument Cashman brought up, then dismissed. “That’s all crap,” he said. “Wake up and smell the coffee. If he’s on national television on ESPN and throws 91 on the 22nd pitch, why would you think if he comes in in the eighth inning protecting a 4-3 lead [he'd throw 96]? Stop, he’s a starter.”
Even including his poor outing in Texas in which he gave up three runs in four innings, Chamberlain is 2-1 with a respectable 3.97 ERA in nine starts this season. His “career” as a starter still comprises just 21 starts.
Cashman was as resolute as ever that Chamberlain is not going to the bullpen. “It’s not even an option,” he said.
======================
Moral of the story: Things change.
Bronx Jeers November 3rd, 2010 at 8:57 pm
“Would the team have been able to charge $2,500 for front-row seats without the presence of Jeter?”
Is he talking about the seats that sold for 2,500$ then got quickly reduced to 1,250$ after no one bought them?
LOL yes those seats. That’s not Jeter’s fault though, Close’s points are well taken regarding Jeter’s value to the franchise. I think so anyway.
Ok…the truth is out. Cashman is lying about his lies again.
TR10
November 3rd, 2010 at 7:11 pm
Ruby aka Vineyard aka BobbyCA…I thought you were going to stop that act?
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Tim:
Knock off your incessant, delusional BS. I am not Ruby Tuesday as you say, he was here long before me and you know it. Vineyard Yankee is my only handle. Why do you lie, you little cretin.
A most reasonable contract for Jeter from here on out is a $17 mil a year deal for 3 years and a 4th year option @ $16 or a $5 mil buyout.
Cashman is the baseball boss and certainly has every right to change his mind about Joba. Circumstances do change and adapting to them is part of the job.
What happens with Lee and Pettitte will dictate a lot. If Joba were to start, the pen will basically be Mariano and Robertson from the right side and there would be lots of work to do there.
West Coast Yankee Fan November 3rd, 2010 at 8:37 pm
Timmy was humiliated earlier and now is pouting. : (
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WCYF, care to explain this?
GB….I think the Yanks will do the same thing with Jeter as they did with Rivera & Posada, make him the highest paid player at his position….Out of respect and for all that he provided since 1996……Yes Mo was the best in the game at his position when he signed, but it was beyond market value…….I agree with you on the contract parameters you laid out……It’s going to be done very quickly as will the re-inking of Rivera….
Nothing to do with you egomaniac. Never saw South Park? Go bother someone else.
Vineyard Yankee November 3rd, 2010 at 9:08 pm
TR10
November 3rd, 2010 at 7:11 pm
Ruby aka Vineyard aka BobbyCA…I thought you were going to stop that act?
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Tim:
Knock off your incessant, delusional BS. I am not Ruby Tuesday as you say, he was here long before me and you know it. Vineyard Yankee is my only handle. Why do you lie, you little cretin.
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Ruby Tuesday November 1st, 2010 at 10:40 pm
TR10 = Tim the Troll = Rangers Fan in Drag ! ! Too late for the Rangers now sucka ! ! !
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Vineyard Yankee September 16th, 2010 at 3:40 pm
West Coast Yankee Fan
September 16th, 2010 at 3:28 pm
Why do they allow trolls here ? I thought this blog was moderated ?
====================
That is Aldo in DRAG ! He’s in the ‘bottle’ again early today.
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Notice any similarities?
Uh no. I see someone with little respect for others who are talking baseball here. Kindly take your personal agenda elsewhere. Thanks very much.
sp mistake there…but I don’t think it was directed at your WCYF?
A most reasonable contract for Jeter from here on out is a $17 mil a year deal for 3 years and a 4th year option @ $16 or a $5 mil buyout.
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Over 3 years it’s basically the same salary he’s earned over the last 10. Make it a 6 mil buyout and he gets a 100,000$ raise.
Tiny Tim why are you here ? You show up once a week to trash others with your copy and paste monologue. Very few if any comments on baseball or the subject topic. You are a pest, go feed your goldfish and call it a night.
Pat M. November 3rd, 2010 at 9:20 pm
GB….I think the Yanks will do the same thing with Jeter as they did with Rivera & Posada, make him the highest paid player at his position….Out of respect and for all that he provided since 1996……Yes Mo was the best in the game at his position when he signed, but it was beyond market value…….I agree with you on the contract parameters you laid out……It’s going to be done very quickly as will the re-inking of Rivera….
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Pat, I can’t see things getting ugly between NY and Jeter or Rivera.
Certainly Jeter is aware that the only place he was ever worth $20 mil a year as a shortstop was in NY. His value was that high because of a combination of things, but, certainly just in field production. It was production, on and off field leadership and fan/media appeal that made him a $20 mil shortstop. when one or more of those things decline, his salary needs to show it. Unless it was an attempt by Boston to tweak the nose of NY, that’s the only place that Jeter gets half of that contract.
Rivera’s an entirely different horse. He continues to put up numbers that closers 10 years younger would drool over. I’d say that over the last couple of years, the only reason his saves aren’t with the league leaders is that he doesn’t get the same oppotunities to save games, mostly due to team run production. Amazing, isn’t it that any pitcher and especially a relief pitcher could have a 11 year run where the ERA isn’t above 2.85 and in 10 of 16 seasons it was below 2.00? He’s another getting paid for other than on field production. He may be more valued for his leadership, not just to the pitchers, but to the entire team, than Jeter. Strangely, he appears to be getting better every year.
Bob, I was on this blog before you. I don’t post often because I work a lot of hours. Think before you post on all fronts, including Ruby which got you upset to begin with.
Jeter’s been making more than $20 mil a season for the last 5 years and in a 6th year was just $400,000 short of that. That would make it a reasonable pay cut over that period.
TR10
November 3rd, 2010 at 9:47 pm
So you work alot of hours, woopie ! You were on LoHud before me, woopie ! I don’t know Ruby, I am not Ruby and I am not upset. Whats to get upset about ? It’s actually funny so post to your hearts content with your nothing diatribe that no one here is interested in or cares about.
I will ask you to now please stop with your disruptive behavior here. Your acting like a child again.
Thanks Tim
Why should the Yankees give Jeter that substantial of a buyout at this stage of his career and on only a 3+1 contract?
Interestlng….I only went off your BobbyCA username to call you Bob. You call me Tim?
LGY November 3rd, 2010 at 10:05 pm
Why should the Yankees give Jeter that substantial of a buyout at this stage of his career and on only a 3+1 contract?
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Would it be any different than giving him a personal services contract?
I was talking about his AAV over the life of the contract. 18.9 mil.
I really don’t care what he makes. It’s not like they’re going to roll back ticket/beer prices if he makes less.
I think that what all the Jeter discussion here today has shown, is that there is a huge diversity of opinion as to what the right thing to do is regarding his contract.
Some are in the pay him for what he can do as a ballplayer now camp. Others are in the pay him as an icon for the past and future camp. Some are in between.
Judging from Hal Steinbrenner’s brief comments and Casey Close’s response, it’s “possible” that chasm might also exist in the closed door negotiations as well. Possible. I hope it doesn’t blow up and get ugly.
I’m feeling pretty militant towards Jeter right now. 9 million per. 3 years.
That’s more than Renteria got.
Renteria? That’s that power hitter who plays for the Giants right?
Tim, now you are being foolish. My only handle here is Vineyard Yankee. Stick to the topic here or go to bed that way you will be at work on time tomorrow to work all those many, many hours you whine about.
Earlier there was some discussion about Joba’s standing in the organization in regards to starting again.
GB is spot on in that Joba is the true determinant of that. If Joba spends his offseason in AZ at the athletes institute dedicated to improving his stamina flexibility and overall conditioning with Hughsie and improving his mechanics, command and repeatablity he most certainly can thrust himself right back into the discussion and grab a starters spot depending on who signs/resigns.
The most vocal objector to Joba the starter, Eiland, is no longer with the team. Cash continues to refer to Joba as a potential starter because I believe he still sees the potential and ceiling as being inside of him.
Joba will decide what he wants his career to be. At least his career story with the Yanks…
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Even if Joba goes into AZ and does the things you just stated he still isn’t going to start. Girardi refferred to him as a reliever. Even Cashman who was once his biggest supporter of him being a starter stated on Francesa’s show “we told him when he lost the 5th starter battle with Hughes that he’s a reliever and that’s it” His days starting with the Yankees are over. It would serve them well to trade Joba and let another organization see if they can resurrect his career.
# West Coast Yankee Fan November 3rd, 2010 at 8:25 pm
Eiland was not the main determiner of Joba’s role. It was Billy Eppler as well as others and was obviously signed off on by Cashman. IMO Joba does not have what it takes to be an effective starter.
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You might be right but at the same time he wasn’t handled well by the Yankees. That doesn’t mean Joba takes non of the blame because he does but the Yanks played a role in it too
It’s remarkable that it is still debatable what to do with Joba, isn’t it? Frankly I’m at a loss with the guy. Still, you don’t give up on an arm like that.
Bedard has a bad reputation, but that may be part of the loser mentality they played with in Baltimore. Look at his numbers and you see a guy with great talent He’ll be 31 in the spring and has less than 1,000 MLB innings on his arm. If he’s healthy — and admittedly that’s a big “IF” — he’s worth a shot at some low guaranteed $$$
And if the Yanks aren’t sold yet on Montero being ready John Buck would make a lot of sense for a short term deal. I’m afraid he’s going to get overpaid coming off a career year.
86w183 November 4th, 2010 at 11:02 am
It’s remarkable that it is still debatable what to do with Joba, isn’t it? Frankly I’m at a loss with the guy. Still, you don’t give up on an arm like that.
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Whats the point of keeping him if he doesn’t have a role on the team