Astros ready to move on without Berkman
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Nov 07, 2010 
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In his two-plus months in pinstripes, Lance Berkman very quickly became a media favorite in the Yankees clubhouse. He was candid and funny and approachable. A very nice guy dropped into a very odd, unexpected situation.
It was clear that he wanted to do everything in his power to help the Yankees win, but he was a role player for the first time in his career, and it was clear most of his personal ties remained in Texas.
Today, the FOX television station in Houston reported that the Astros are not likely to bring Berkman back next season (tip of the hat to MLBTradeRumors). The Astros have little choice but to rebuild, and signing a soon to be 35-year-old first baseman — whatever his ties to the organization and the city — doesn’t make enough sense.
There are plenty of connections to be made between the Berkman and Derek Jeter situations: Both are local icons within their respective franchises. Both are aging superstars, showing diminished results in 2010. Both never expected to play for any other organization.
For Berkman, the situation officially changed in July, but realistically it changed long before that when Houston began going in the tank and set the stage for a drastic and inevitable rebuilding process.
For Jeter and the Yankees, there is no rebuilding, and there is no obvious alternative for either side. There are obvious similarities between Jeter and Berkman, but it remains difficult to imagine a similar outcome.
Important Winter Dates:
* November 7th – Free agents can negotiate with any team.
* November 16th-17th – GM Meetings, Orlando, Florida.
* November 23rd – Deadline for teams to offer arbitration to their own free agents.
* November 30th – Deadline\ to accept/decline arbitration offers from former teams.
* December 2nd – Deadline for teams to tender contracts to arbitration eligible players.
* December 6th-9th – Winter Meetings, Lake Buena Vista, Florida.
* January 18th – Teams and players exchange salary arbitration figures.
– ht/MLB Trade Rumors
Nobody wants to see Jeter leave.
I do think the majority of sane fans simply want the Yanks to only pay Derek what he’s worth, plus maybe an extra $10m for being Derek Jeter.
That leaves a fair offer at $3/$40m.
After thinking this through I don’t think the Yankees can get away with less than four years without suffering in the PR department. I believe as I have said before that the club has most of the leverage, but it has to stand the stink test for the fans and media to be behind them. I think 4 years at a reasonable annual amount in the $20 million range give or take a few mil accomplishes that.
Some alternative compensation options to look for IMO are deferred money, bonuses and a back-end personal services contract as a Yankee ambassador, instructor or something similar.
OYF: regarding Jeter, Yankees decision-makers need to ultimately strike the right balance between bruising Jeter’s ego and his stature as a Yankee icon, and maintaining a reasonable and flexible payroll structure going forth. Not an easy choice but my line in the sand so to speak would be 3/50.
ustinmac November 7th, 2010 at 10:13 am
Good morning GB. If the Yankees were to sign Lee the, perhaps, Downs or the like coud be considered for a second round pick.
I have been out of the country for two weeks, but I was still able to get abreast of rumors and our blog friends trade suggestions. Now, I have to focus on helping Cashman with his decision making. He listens, doesn’t he?
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Hey, Mac. Out of the country, huh? Hiding from the Feds or just checking on your vast amount of off shore bank accounts?
Cashman listens to us, or at least those of us with common sense. That’s about 25% of this board…less on game day.
It woould be nice that after he signs NYYs own free agents and Lee, he brings Kerry Wood back along with a left handed power bat like Berkman. Not sure either will happen, though. Berkman isn’t likely to accept an even more diminished role than this past season. I would expect that he goes for Texas or maybe Tampa. Berkman and Thome are about the only two left handed power bats that really make sense for the bench.
Arod was a MVP with 57 hr and carried the Yankees to post season on his back when he got his contract
Posada hit 330+ and the Mets were ready to go 4 years for 50M+ when he got his contract
Jeter is coming off a disaster season. My inflated offer is 3 years 40-45M!!!! You want more money? Go find a better offer and come back to me.
Teams should give long-term contracts for two reasons:
– they want to lock up the player for that long a time
– they have to meet a competitive offer from another team
In Jeter’s case, the Yanks should want 1 year. They don’t want to lock him up. If his 2011 is like 2010 (or worse!), even 1 year will be too long. And, by 2012, chances are he’ll be two slow to play SS. If he can’t play SS, his value to the Yanks goes to near zero, because there’s no other position for him.
Will some other team give Jeter a 3 year contract? I don’t think so. I think he might get 2 years from a team that hopes his persona will help them sell tickets,. So, the longest the Yanks should go is 2 years.
The Yanks will get bad publicity if they force Jeter out before he’s ready to go. Too bad. If they sign Jeter for 3 of 4 years and he still wants to play, they’ll get bad publicity then. It’s better for the team to bite the bullet now, take their PR lumps, and plan move on with a younger, quicker SS in 2012.
Berkman and Thome are about the only two left handed power bats that really make sense for the bench.
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Branyan makes even more sense since he will be cheaper than both of them.
Russell Branyan may be cheap but he strikes out a lot. Best remembered for a mammoth HR he hit at the Stadium this past season.
Thome had a reasonable contract last year with the Twins and is shooting for his 600th HR. His liability is no longer able to play in the field.
Berkman would be taking a huge salary cut no matter where he goes.
The only FA signings I’d like to the Yanks to make are – (afte the obvious ones like Jeter, Mariano, and Andy) are Lee, and Kerry Wood (I realize the $$$ have to work for both sides on Wood).
After that, Thames if he fits in with the roster they’re aiming to put together. Thames seems like a good guy, and he does his job well. It just comes down to how they want to put together the roster.
GB, I think I have now hidden all my Swiss and Cayman Island bank accounts. The banks weren’t all that impressed by my $100 deposits. Go figure.
I would love to see Wood return, and I do think that is a possibility. He will not make anything approaching his declined option. If the Rays lose Soriano and Benoit, Wood could be an option for them. I would bet that winning is more important to Wood than closing for a bad team so that is the basis of my hope for his return. Of course, he and I are close since he too is from Texas.:)
I have heard others suggest Crawford if Lee doesn’t sign and then use the OF depth to acquire a pitcher. That is not a bad plan, in my view.
Much depends on Pettitte. If he doesn’t return, a veteran starter is absolutely needed. If he does, maybe they will try to go with Nova, Noesi or another young guy for the fifth spot. That has risk, but so does going with de la Rosa and the like.
Hank really put a monkey wrench into the Yankees credibility when he was throwing money around during that brief period he was in control of baseball operations.
My personal opinion is that contracts shouldn’t go more than 1-2 years past age 34 and if the player is already 34, contracts are limited to 1-2 years.
Jeter should be limited to a 2 year contract
Call me ridiculous but I will keep singing the same tune.
Jeter is Jeter and any attempt at making this a regular older free agent deal doesn’t make any sense.
The last player the Yankees should “get tough with” is Derek Jeter.
He is a franchise player – the face of the franchise – and MLB for that matter. All these years with his production and intangibles AND no PR nightmares. Can you say added value?
And for better or for worse, they did make a ridiculous deal with ARod and this is the ONLY time it will come back to haunt them. Because Jeter is the guy the Yankees should be holding up as the Yankee standard, and have, actually, done so. So you reward him for that.
My last word on this.
You can all keep throwing out your contract suggestions and lines in the sand.
Doreen
How much added value? How much should they reward him?
How much of his last contract already paid him for all those things?
Doreen there has to be a limit doesn’t there? You giving Jeter a ten year deal if he wants one?
Mac, what kind of narrow minded banks wouldn’t accept a $100 deposit? That’s strange since they have no problems taking $2.50 from me when I use my credit cards for cash. I really liked what Wood did over his 2 months. He could get away with a few walks because he hardly ever gave up hits and almost none were extra base hits. Most of the bench is right handed and that’s why NYYs need the left handed power bat. They have 3 left handed, the right handed and 3 switch hitters, but, most likely, as it is now, the bench is right handed.
Hasn’t the whole Jeter mantra and Yankee standard thing been winning above all else?
What if Jeter insists on a contract far above his value in money and years and it affects the product on the field?
Can Jeter still claim to hold that standard at its highest regard?
If NYYs were smart, they’d sign Jeter to a 3-4 year contract with a lifetime contract as an advisor/coach and resident icon to walk out on the field during special occas sions and wave his little cap when those days. Cut the deal anyway that benefits both Jeter and the team.
The point is I don’t know and nobody knows what the precise numbers will be, but the baseline is not the same as for just anyone else. It’s not.
Who even knows what the demands are?
I will be upset if the Yankees don’t do whatever it takes to keep Jeter. There, I said it.
I don’t want to have to look forward to a future where nobody knows if Jeter is going to show up for an Old Timer’s Game because they wondering if enough time has passed to heal the wounds. Where he doesn’t get his “day” with the plaque, et cetera, until he’s an old man.
I don’t think Jeter would want all that to happen either. I don’t think the Steinbrenners want that to happen.
Yes, if Jeter doesn’t come back the franchise goes on. But there will be a hole in the fabric.
Why does most everybody have this sudden need to “put Jeter in his place” and cut his annual pay by 25-35%? Is it insulting to you? Get over it. You’re not paying the freight. The Yankees and cable companies aren’t going to roll back the prices.
Players have said it time and again if you listen. The money is ridiculous – it’s monopoly money at this point. It’s about respect and about being wanted. I agree with GB7 – you don’t put a player like Jeter in his place – you don’t nickel and dime this particular player. You don’t disrespect the guy who is your go-to player for public speaking on grand occasions – Steinbrenner’s death; the closing of the old stadium for two examples.
And they won’t face this situation again. Ever.
I don’t think one person on this board has said the Yankees should put Jeter in his place?
That just completely and unfairly mischaracterizings the discussion.
It sets no precedent because they can always say, There is only one Derek Jeter.
If Jeter leaves and the situation is bad, you’ll end up with a Berra, Ralph Houk and Stottlemyre situation again. That’s too ugly to contemplate. You already have a situation with Bernie Williams and Joe Torre. Like him or not, Torre is a huge part of the history of this team.
If offering Jeter something like 3/45 is nickel and diming him or putting him in his place the Yankees are better off walking away.
We are talking at 15 million a year. He would be the highest paid SS in baseball by something like 30%
That’s exactly what you and others are saying. Jeter, here’s the deal…2 years at $13 mil per, take or leave it.
I will be so hapy when Jeter is re-signed. I believe the Yankees and Jeter will come to a fair resolution. Jeter is the face of the franchise, and should be rewarded accordingly, not so it hurts the Yankees financially, but more than your standard SS would get. I would be surprised if he even wants to play more than 3 or 4 more years.
GreenBeret7 November 7th, 2010 at 12:08 pm
Why does most everybody have this sudden need to “put Jeter in his place” and cut his annual pay by 25-35%? Is it insulting to you? Get over it. You’re not paying the freight. The Yankees and cable companies aren’t going to roll back the prices.
——–
Hahaha, well put.
Jeter is still one of the better SSs in baseball no less. I’m not sure why so many Yankee fans are obsessed over this contract negotiation. He’s going to try and get the most value out of this contract possible, and so are the Yankees. He’s not holding someone hostage here, this isn’t a ransom. I hope anyone Yankee fan here would do the same if they were in a contract negotiation of their own.
The Yankees make a lot of money, and Jeter has made a lot of money for them. What’s the big deal?
I love hardline pretend GMs.
LGY -
Well, they have in not so many words. “Jeter should this” and “Jeter should realize that” and “Jeter needs to do this” and “Jeter needs to do that” – all with the bottom line of how Jeter should be happy with a pay cut because no other team would pay him more on the open market; and he should be happy with four years max because he is in steep decline and he’s lucky to get anything.
These are all things I’ve read here, more or less, and all in such a tone as to certainly suggest that Jeter somehow doesn’t deserve to be treated differently than any other player. And I disagree with that.
I’d be curious to know how much the Yankees are paying Reggie Jackson in his advisory capacity.
He certainly can’t be out-of-pocket- paying for flying around the country and seen around the batting cages and in good seats of venues in the AL.
I see this as something Derek Jeter will be doing once his career is finished and he gets tired of playing golf.
I dont think 15/yr is nickel and diming. HOWEVER, if they are going to pay Mo 15 mil, can you really blame jeter’s agent for wanting more ( if he does)? Yes I know Mo is the greatest closer of all time. But Jeter plays more innings in 2 weeks than Mo does all year. Just something ive thought about…
What people here think means nothing.
What the Brothers Stein and Cash think does and they aren’t going to drive a large wedge between Derek and the organization.
Casey Close and Cashman will do their negotiation dance and it will get worked out.
Some will complain it’s too much, others will say he deserves it but ultimately a player is worth what someone is willing to pay him even if everyone wouldn’t pay it.
That’s exactly what you and others are saying. Jeter, here’s the deal…2 years at $13 mil per, take or leave it.
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Offering Jeter a very fair contract is putting him in his place?
Something like 2/12 or 2/14 or just a one year contract is doing that because that is what his production warrants.
Paying Jeter a substantial premium on his production in both years and money is not putting him in his place. It is balancing his production with what he means to the team.
“There are plenty of connections to be made between the Berkman and Derek Jeter situations: Both are local icons within their respective franchises. Both are aging superstars, showing diminished results in 2010.”
Excellent point and it’s why:
“If offering Jeter something like 3/45 is nickel and diming him or putting him in his place the Yankees are better off walking away.”
Is so spot on that it’s amazing that anyone disagrees, even Jeter.
pat -
As usual, well put.
And I hope you are right that the dance has a positive finish.
Well it’s been fun.
“Jeter plays more innings in 2 weeks than Mo does all year. ”
It’s about contribution to the franchise not hourly return on investment.
pat November 7th, 2010 at 12:25 pm
“Jeter plays more innings in 2 weeks than Mo does all year. ”
It’s about contribution to the franchise not hourly return on investment.
_________________________________________________
Completely understood. Its just something Ive been wondering about given that everyone is complaining about paying Jeter but no one seems to mind paying Mo whatever he asks. I probably shouldnt have opened this can of worms, was just thinking out load….
“What the Brothers Stein and Cash think does and they aren’t going to drive a large wedge between Derek and the organization.
Casey Close and Cashman will do their negotiation dance and it will get worked out.”
This is not necessarily true. Cashman’s opinions were ignored with the Posada and A-Rod negotiations. They could be ignored again.
“Some will complain it’s too much, others will say he deserves it but ultimately a player is worth what someone is willing to pay him even if everyone wouldn’t pay it.”
Those of us who complained about the results of the A-Rod and Posada negotiations are proving to be right.
If Jeter gets ridiculously overpaid, we’ll probably be right again.
what about bringing matsui back for the bench/dh?
Also going back to people willing to let Jeter walk, who would you replace him with? You’d prefer Nunez on value proposition versus paying Jeter? The Yankees over pay for great players because they can, there’s no point in suggesting we change the philosophy now.
There aren’t many SSs better than Jeter in 2009. That was one year ago. I just don’t believe that one of the most consistant short stops in baseball history fell off the cliff in one year and will never come back. That’s not age, age for hitters tends to be a gradual decline. I’ll take the average Derek Jeter season over 90-95% of other short stops in the MLB.
and for jeter, i say 3/50, but if he still wants to play 6 more years like he says, agree to a lower AAV. 6/75 or something.
“Also going back to people willing to let Jeter walk, who would you replace him with? You’d prefer Nunez on value proposition versus paying Jeter?”
As I have said, if Yankees don’t think that Nunez would be able to carry the load, they have tons of much sought after mL assets to trade.
“The Yankees over pay for great players because they can, there’s no point in suggesting we change the philosophy now.”"
That’s the point. Jeter is no longer a great player. The risk that he may no longer even be a good one for very long should be reflected in is his contract, assuming reality and facts matter.
It is a privilege to watch Derek Jeeter play baseball. Just like it was a privilege for me to watch Mickey Mantle play. I don’t understand why this is so hard to understand. No one plays the game the way Derek does. He has class and skill and humility. It is not up to me what to pay him or up to any other fan. It is up to the Yankees.
As for me, I love the way he plays the game.
Jeter was a great player in 2009. That was just one season ago.
I don’t expect him to hit .330+ next season but something much closer to his career averages coming into 2010 is not out of the question.
I wouldn’t bet against him having a typical Jeter season in 2011.
Berkman and Jeter are not the same. Houston icon is not NY icon. They all but pushed a bigger icon in Craig Biggio out the door by cutting his salary from $9.75 to $3 mil from ’03-’04 and except for the last year it stayed there, while putting up the same numbers over those years. They kept him around for 3,000 hits and told him they weren’t picking up his contract after 2007. NYY/Astros are not the same thing. This year they moved Oswalt for less than the going rate.
Jeter wasn’t a great player in 2008 or 2010. That’s two out of three seasons.
Greeting GB.
The real asinine arguement is that Tulowitzski and Ramirez are better than Jeter and get paid less. Guess who’s fault that is? That’s right…they went for the early long term contract other than going year to year.
I wouldn’t bet against him having a typical Jeter season in 2011.
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So the Yankees should pay him based on the hope we all have that he bounces back?
If his production in 2010 shouldn’t factor heavily into the negotiations why shouldn’t have the Yankees extended him after 2009?
afternoon, Bronx. How are things in the publishing business? Have you been going to author shows and selling autographs?
Hope all is going well with you and your book.
My new LoHud posting style— post and run.
Ditto everything Doreen, GB, Pat, Bronx and GF post on Jeter. (that’s in the last 5 minutes alone)
Have a great day everybody!
It’s not a matter of putting Jeter in his place and no one is suggesting he would not be treated as the icon that he is. No team is going to pay Jeter close to what the Yankees will. A 37 year old shortstop who just has a poor year would/should/will never be paid what Jeter will get.
But, there is a walk away point, there always is. This all depends on what Jeter’s demands are. He already has been paid for what he did in the past. And very well at that.
All contracts, rightly or wrongly, serve as benchmarks that agents and GMs (or owners) use in negotiations as comparable reference points of valuation. Tulowitzski and Ramirez’s contracts are/will be no different.
Jeter wasn’t exactly dog meat in 2008, either. It’s said that when a player doesn’t put up a career season every year, it’s automatically a bad year.
To be honest I’m amazed most on here are not insulted that the Yankees let Jeter go into this season without an extension.
He was treated like everyone else. How could the Yankees do that to Derek Jeter?
“So the Yankees should pay him based on the hope we all have that he bounces back?”
Plus, even if he does bounce back next season (which I would expect, at least to league average), the likelihood that he will remain at a significantly higher level of production beyond next season, given his age, are quite small.
“That’s the point. Jeter is no longer a great player. The risk that he may no longer even be a good one for very long should be reflected in is his contract, assuming reality and facts matter.”
I just find that to be an absurd point. In baseball, players have bumps in the road. During the season and during their careers. You’re betting against the amazing consistency of Jeter’s career here. He’s 36, not 46. Jeter has had his first real bump in the road, and all of a sudden, he’s not great anymore.
Do you base most players’ careers on one year? Because as of now, Jose Bautista is a Hall of Famer.
Tulowitzski and Ramirez took the safe way out and signed away more money for security. Jeter had the confidence to gamble and he won. He went year to year. Then he hit the jackpot. The others can only blame themselves for being “underpaid”.
No, he wasn’t dog meat, which is why people are suggesting $15m a year, not $5m or less.
GB 7 is spot on: the NY/HOU icon analogy is invalid.
Although Berkman is one of the killer B’s, and Jeter one of the Core Four, Berkman is no Jeter in the grand scheme of baseball. Moreover, the Astros are not the NYY.
What the Houston did/does/ or will do has no bearing on, nor can be used as a measure of what NYY did/does/ or will do.
What don’t people understand about a major league ballplayer’s prime being when he is 27-29 years old? Yes there are a few outliers, but this has been statistically substantiated many times.
Jeter is going to be a 37 year old shortstop, it is “normal” that his range would diminish as well as his bat speed and power.
The Yankees are going to be generous given the above. Jeter and Close should understand the reality and not be greedy. I don’t care who he is, millions are unemployed and losing their homes and the fan appetite for an athlete’s demands are much less than they used to be.
Jeter needs to be reasonable.
“I just find that to be an absurd point. In baseball, players have bumps in the road. During the season and during their careers. You’re betting against the amazing consistency of Jeter’s career here. He’s 36, not 46. Jeter has had his first real bump in the road, and all of a sudden, he’s not great anymore.
Do you base most players’ careers on one year? Because as of now, Jose Bautista is a Hall of Famer.”
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You have to search long and hard to find SS who remained great beyond their 37th birthday.
Even if he does bounce back, are you saying that he will bounce back to being better than a $15 million a year player?
At age 37, 38, 39, 40, etc. Jeter will be a $20 million player? He is that special and consistent that you feel comfortable saying that?
You feel comfortable signing Jeter for more than 3 years because of how consistent in his career he has been?
“I just find that to be an absurd point. In baseball, players have bumps in the road. ”
Even assuming, arguendo that his 2010 season was a bump in the road, seasons that immediately precede a walk year have historically had a large impact on subsequent contractual negotiations.
So if a player has a great season in his walk year, he almost always gets a lot more than he otherwise would have if he had a typical year, and less if it’s a subpar year. In this case, we are talking about a player who has had subpar (in terms of his career) production in two of the last three years.
“Do you base most players’ careers on one year? Because as of now, Jose Bautista is a Hall of Famer”
Given that we are talking about two out of three years, your point is not only non-factual, it’s just silly.
The yankees haven’t extended a contract for any player or manager in the middle of an existing contract, ever. Not Guidry, not Torre, not williams or Rivera. and not Cashman. The Steinbrenners make zero exceptions and the players know it and accept it.
“Both are local icons within their respective franchises”
Some people are leaving out a very important sentence in Chad’s observation in order to distort its meaning.
“The yankees haven’t extended a contract for any player or manager in the middle of an existing contract, ever. Not Guidry, not Torre, not williams or Rivera. and not Cashman. The Steinbrenners make zero exceptions and the players know it and accept it.”
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But I thought Jeter was the one exception to the rule of contract negotiations? I thought he was the one player you treat differently?
He is the face of the Yankees. How can you treat Jeter like everyone else?
# Rich in NJ November 7th, 2010 at 12:42 pm
Jeter wasn’t a great player in 2008 or 2010. That’s two out of three seasons.
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It’s very easy to be the pretend GM or owner when you have absolutely nothing riding on these negotiations with a Yankee icon.
But Hal and Cashman do have a lot riding on it, which is why the negotiations and eventual outcome will shake out nothing like the hardliners want.
This Jeter contract stuff is the most overblown non-story of the entire offseason.
Icons in Houston don’t mean anymore to that team than icons in Boston do.
I’m thankful for the sanity of Upstate Kate and Doreen.
How anyone could think you go the normal contract negotiation route for Jeter is just ridiculous. If you don’t have a special appreciation for him, there is no hope for you.
The Steinbrenner family cares about history, money, and George’s legacy. All three would be thrown out the window if they screwed this up.
The Jerkfaces and Rich’s and trolls (yes, that’s you, WCYF) say the same thing every day. If the Yankees let this get out of hand (which they won’t) and listen to you, a majority of the fan base would be rocked. I’m a life-long diehard. I don’t miss games and I consume every written word about them… If I saw Derek Jeter in another uniform, I’d take up knitting and wait for football season.
Regarding a long term contract for Jeter.
It wouldn’t matter to me if in 2011, Jeter bounces back to hit .290/.360.
Why? Because an Indian Summer never means Winter isn’t coming. Accordingly, that wouldn’t validate or justify a 5-6 year deal IMO.
It amazes me how many attorneys field this blog. What, no case work on a Sunday afternoon?
“It’s very easy to be the pretend GM or owner when you have absolutely nothing riding on these negotiations with a Yankee icon.
But Hal and Cashman do have a lot riding on it, which is why the negotiations and eventual outcome will shake out nothing like the hardliners want.
This Jeter contract stuff is the most overblown non-story of the entire offseason.”
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The Yankees have had a lot riding on a lot of negotiations in recent years. Are you saying they haven’t made a decision that has affected the teams chances of winning in the long run?
The Yankee front office is not infallible and they are very capable of giving Jeter a contract that significantly hurts this team’s chances of winning.
MDD2 November 7th, 2010 at 1:04 pm
I’m thankful for the sanity of Upstate Kate and Doreen. How anyone could think you go the normal contract negotiation route for Jeter is just ridiculous. If you don’t have a special appreciation for him, there is no hope for you. The Steinbrenner family cares about history, money, and George’s legacy. All three would be thrown out the window if they screwed this up.
The Jerkfaces and Rich’s and trolls (yes, that’s you, WCYF) say the same thing every day. If the Yankees let this get out of hand (which they won’t) and listen to you, a majority of the fan base would be rocked. I’m a life-long diehard. I don’t miss games and I consume every written word about them… If I saw Derek Jeter in another uniform, I’d take up knitting and wait for football season.
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A troll? And what exactly is unreasonable about this post of mine?
“After thinking this through I don’t think the Yankees can get away with less than four years without suffering in the PR department. I believe as I have said before that the club has most of the leverage, but it has to stand the stink test for the fans and media to be behind them. I think 4 years at a reasonable annual amount in the $20 million range give or take a few mil accomplishes that.
Some alternative compensation options to look for IMO are deferred money, bonuses and a back-end personal services contract as a Yankee ambassador, instructor or something similar”.
The Yankees will inevitably overpay for Derek Jeter, this is a given. I just don’t see the point in complaining or frustration or dislike of Jeter and the Yankees organization.
As a fan I’m more concerned with his production while he’s with the team, and I believe he’s got at least 3 more very good years left (which is what most people suggest). Beyond that is the extras because Jeter has been the most famous, marketable US sports brand of this generation. That’s being slightly revisionary in respect to Tiger Woods.
After 3 years he’s more likely to be a veteran role player than a star SS, but who knows, maybe he’ll prove to be consistant into his 40s. It’s not unheard of, it’s just not typical, and Jeter is not a typical player.
Also, obviously,my Jose Bautista point was a silly point to highlight the idea of putting a few years under the microscope rather than considering past average performance.
# LGY November 7th, 2010 at 1:07 pm
The Yankees have had a lot riding on a lot of negotiations in recent years. Are you saying they haven’t made a decision that has affected the teams chances of winning in the long run?
The Yankee front office is not infallible and they are very capable of giving Jeter a contract that significantly hurts this team’s chances of winning.
————-
How does signing Jeter to a 3-4 yr deal hurt this team’s chances of winning in the long run?
“It’s very easy to be the pretend GM or owner when you have absolutely nothing riding on these negotiations with a Yankee icon.”
That’s how we all roll here.
“But Hal and Cashman do have a lot riding on it, which is why the negotiations and
eventual outcome will shake out nothing like the hardliners want.”
Hardliners? I would call it the sensible segment.
Two points:
1) As I said to pat above, Hal (and Hank) ignored Cash’s advice in both the A-Rod and Posada negotiations. In purely baseball terms, that has had negative effects.
2) As long as the budget remains at or around $200m, as seems likely, every marginal dollar overspent could restrict their ability to secure quality depth. The cruel irony is that overpaying Jeter and A-Rod could prevent them from acquiring a quality veteran 3B/SS who can reduce their load and thereby mitigate the effects of any decline.
“This Jeter contract stuff is the most overblown non-story of the entire offseason.”
Yes, for one reason, he isn’t the Derek Jeter of even five years ago.
If he was, then he would be the most important free agent signing out there, and the money would be a side issue.
I’ve never heard anyone, not one person, suggest that Jeter should get a 5-6 year contract … that is, aside from West Coast nancy.
MDD2 nails it with this –
“How anyone could think you go the normal contract negotiation route for Jeter is just ridiculous. If you don’t have a special appreciation for him, there is no hope for you.”
“The Yankees will inevitably overpay for Derek Jeter, this is a given. I just don’t see the point in complaining or frustration or dislike of Jeter and the Yankees organization.”
Who said they dislike Jeter and the Yankee organization?
When the team you root for spends its money in suboptimal ways it’s reasonable for a fan (short for fanatic) to complain.
When the press conference to announce the signing of Jeter (and hopefully Rivera at the same time), contract number won’t be discussed as they never are.
Hal Steinbrenner and Brian Cashman will likely say the contracts involve legacy, and their remaining years of playing.
How does signing Jeter to a 3-4 yr deal hurt this team’s chances of winning in the long run?
**********
How much money are you paying for those years?
Is he playing SS when he is 39 let alone 40.
Aside from the money which is secondary. If the Yankees have Jeter under contract when he can’t play SS they are in major trouble that season.
The bottom line is that in every negotiation there is a range within which a deal can be made. There is always a line outside of which a deal cannot be made.
This will hold true for the Yankees negotiations with Jeter and/or anyone else no matter what their stature.
Fans can and should give their opinion, that’s what blogging is all about. But, anyone who claims to “know” what either parties position is before it becomes public, is wrong ….and maybe should take up knitting.
From Marketing Guru Seth Godwin:
Two problems with whining
The first is that it doesn’t work. You can whine about the government or your friends or your job or your family, but nothing will happen except that you’ll waste time.
Worse… far worse… is that whining is a reverse placebo. When you get good at whining, you start noticing evidence that makes your whining more true. So you amplify that and immerse yourself in it, thus creating more evidence, more stuff worth complaining about.
If you spent the same time prattling on about how optimistic you are, you’d have to work hard to make that true…
http://sethgodin.typepad.com/s.....7s+Blog%29
Rich in NJ November 7th, 2010 at 1:12 pm
That’s how we all roll here.
———-
That’s not how I roll here. I try to be as realistic as possible and put myself in their (Hal and Cashman’s) shoes.
Some points would be much more valid if we weren’t talking about the Yankees.
They are a different breed than everyone else, which is why all the hard line stances and negotiation tactics with an iconic player aren’t going to turn out like it probably would with another organization.
# LGY November 7th, 2010 at 1:17 pm
How much money are you paying for those years?
Is he playing SS when he is 39 let alone 40.
Aside from the money which is secondary. If the Yankees have Jeter under contract when he can’t play SS they are in major trouble that season.
————
I’m not paying him anything. The Steinbrenners are signing those checks and they are privy to much more information, and their bottom line, than you or me.
Secondly, Jeter won’t be 39 and 40 for another 2-3 yrs. Perhaps we should wait and see how things pan out over the next couple of years before we worry about the 2013 and 2014 seasons?
Jeter is a team guy. He’ll know when it’s time to move from SS.
Just give Jeter whatever he wants…
2013 future disaster……
31 Cano 18-20M
33 Sabathia 23M
34 Teix 23M
35 Lee 20-23M
36 Burnett 17M
39 Jeter 20M
38 Arod 30M
You know what this roster looks like? The inflexible, overpaid & old roster of 2004-2006
“The Yankees will inevitably overpay for Derek Jeter, this is a given. I just don’t see the point in complaining or frustration or dislike of Jeter and the Yankees organization.”
Who said they dislike Jeter and the Yankee organization?
When the team you root for spends its money in suboptimal ways it’s reasonable for a fan (short for fanatic) to complain.
——-
That’s a fair point, but if you take that logic a step forward you would be furious with the Yankees in general, considering the budget for teams in the past decade that have won the World Series. The Yankees spend considerably more than the “optimal” amount for a winning team. Perhaps years, to a point, are worth being concerned over because that could limit the teams flexibility in years to come.
I would expect the Yankees to want a 3 year contract, and Jeter to want more, and they come somewhere in the middle. That’s a fair proposition because the Yankees aren’t hurting for money, and Jeter creates a ton of value for the team.
In either case it’s a bad message for the Yankees to send this team by working their superstar over for the most even money contract and letting him walk if need be. Or maybe it’s a good message if you believe the Yankees shouldn’t pay more money for their players and act more like other organizations, I just believe that’s unnecessary.
Well, this isn’t the Kennedy assassination is it? What Jeter and the Yankees do will be known shortly. Some bloggers predictions and perspectives will be proven to have been right – and some will be proven to have been wrong. That’s ok, everyone has the right to have an opinion.
West Coast Yankee Fan November 7th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
Well, this isn’t the Kennedy assassination is it? What Jeter and the Yankees do will be known shortly. Some bloggers predictions and perspectives will be proven to have been right – and some will be proven to have been wrong. That’s ok, everyone has the right to have an opinion.
——-
Hooray for the free market place of ideas.
“I’m not paying him anything. The Steinbrenners are signing those checks and they are privy to much more information, and their bottom line, than you or me.
Secondly, Jeter won’t be 39 and 40 for another 2-3 yrs. Perhaps we should wait and see how things pan out over the next couple of years before we worry about the 2013 and 2014 seasons?
Jeter is a team guy. He’ll know when it’s time to move from SS.”
——————————————–
The Steinbrenners are always privy to more information when they make any FA signing. Are you saying they have never made a mistake in that department with that information?
Why should we wait and see? We are talking about paying him for the 2013 and 2014 seasons. Right now is THE time to look forward to that. If Jeter just wants a 1 or 2 year contract then I am more than happy to wait and see.
Where do you move Jeter to? There is nowhere for his bat to go without hurting this team.
RadioKev November 7th, 2010 at 1:29 pm
Hooray for the free market place of ideas.
************
Hip Hip Jorge!
BronxBorn,
It is not whining until the contract is signed
Right now it is just a discussion about what Jeter should get like every other FA we talk about on here.
Nobody knows what the thinking is of Hal Steinbrenner and Brian Cashman or Casey Close and Fernando Cuza is for their clients.
I still don’t believe that Derek wants to play any more than another 3 years and Mariano is year to year.
In the meantime the Yankees need to be thinking who the heir apparents are to either player whether it comes from inside the organization or elsewhere.
Looks like Jamie Moyer’s career is over with an elbow injury in Winter Ball.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....8;c_id=mlb
How many will be yammering about him being voted into the HOF in 5 years?
“They are a different breed than everyone else, which is why all the hard line stances and negotiation tactics with an iconic player aren’t going to turn out like it probably would with another organization.”
That’s really what this discussion turns on. I don’t see offering a player in Jeter’s position $45m over 3 years as being hard line. I see it has being extremely generous.
Bronx, this is just Whine Spring Training.
“That’s not how I roll here. I try to be as realistic as possible and put myself in their (Hal and Cashman’s) shoes.”
As I pointed out above, they have worn different shoes in the past.
So who’s really being realistic?
I think everyone knows.where I stand on Jeter by now…..the real question is when do they place their first bid on Clifford?
I think that depends on whether Francesaa is right that they will treat the Lee negotiations the same way they did with CC (i.e., blow away the competition from Day 1), or if some of the MSM is right and they show less urgency by letting the market set itself.
Rich,
I agree….im.guessing on them.doing the former and making an early statement.
# Rich in NJ November 7th, 2010 at 1:44 pm
“That’s not how I roll here. I try to be as realistic as possible and put myself in their (Hal and Cashman’s) shoes.”
As I pointed out above, they have worn different shoes in the past.
So who’s really being realistic?
———-
Again, these are the Yankees. Period. They roll differently than everyone else – the Red Sox, Rangers, Angels, Cubs, Mets, etc. etc.
I don’t know what Jeter is going to get. He’ll get what the franchise thinks he’s worth for his entire package, not what the fans think he’s worth at age 36.
I’ve only made one simple point regarding these Jeter negotiations. It won’t turn out anything like the hardliners want because the guys in charge know what he means to the organization, on the field and off of it.
It doesn’t get much simpler than that.
Giuseppe Franco
Were they realistic with A-Rod? Not according to Cashman, based on everything that has been written on the issue, which included his own quotes.
So based on the A-Rod precedent, the guys in charge don’t necessarily know what they are doing.
Another case in point: Randy Levine, who conducted the trade negotiations for Randy Johnson (and has a great deal of influence in the decision making process), was wiling to include Cano (and the then very valuable Wang) in the deal.
If the Yankees rolled more llke other teams, the $50m more per year that they spend on payroll compared to the next highest team would yield a much, much bigger competitive advantage.
Rich in NJ
November 7th, 2010 at 1:48 pm
I think that depends on whether Francesa is right that they will treat the Lee negotiations the same way they did with CC (i.e., blow away the competition from Day 1), or if some of the MSM is right and they show less urgency by letting the market set itself.
================
I’m with ya. So what is the delay ? ? It is now almost 12 hours after the opening bell.
“I think 4 years at a reasonable annual amount in the $20 million range give or take a few mil accomplishes that.”
I don’t wish to be mean or anything…… but REASONABLE?????
Are you kidding me???
That is BATSH*T INSANITY!!!
Read around… papers and blogs. The consensus about Jeter’s worth on the FA market is around 2/$20m. I don’t think ANY team would offer 3 years.
3 years for $40m-$45m is already paying a 50% ‘HE’S DEREK JETER’ tax.
And and that, there will be gobs of players out-producing him at less then half the cost.
I was around when Mantle retired.
I was around when Munson was killed.
I was around when Mattingly retired.
Believe me, everyone here will survive ‘Yankees without Jeter’.
All players get old and retire.
Jeter has made over $200m, has a cologne, and many other endorsements.
He has had more hi-end p*ssy then Fritz the Cat.
And this is more because he is a NEW YORK Yankee.
Do you think ANY of this happens if he played his career in Seattle?
How much talk do you hear about Hanley Ramirez????
And what you are all not taking into account is this.
Regardless of what he is paid, if he has more years like last year (or God forbid worse),
FANS WILL TURN ON HIM.
Everyone here that is trying to be reasonable were probably in the
GIVE HIM ANYTHING HE WANTS camp after 2009.
Now, more fans then not want him batting 9th.
He was our WORST offensive started last year.
Think about his defense.
Now imagine he’s 2 years older in 2012.
Now imagine he’s 3 years older in 2013.
Anyone remember Bernie Williams… a better player then Jeter, who made ONE million his last year, and was a liabiltiy every time he took the field.
Do you Jeter fans really want him to be remembered as getting one of the worst contracts in Yankee history?
There is nobody…. nobody on Earth that would think 3/$45m is an ‘insulting’ offer, given his age and last years production.
Cano was a middle of the road minor league utility infielder, mostly 3rd and 2nd base. Wang was a sore armed minor league starter. Nobody had any idea they’d turn into who they did, including Arizona.
I don’t understand why fans are getting upset at what the Yankees might pay Jeter, It’s their money, not ours they are spending.
Folks seem to get angry at athletes being paid $20-25 million a year, to perform at levels few are capable, but, have no problem buying CD’s & DVD’s that make hundreds of millions of dollars a year for singers, and movie stars. Oprah makes $223 million from her TV show alone, heck, that’s obscene, but no one seems to care about that. Her sponsors pay her salary, and you pay a lot more for their products. Movie stars getting $20 million for 1 movie +, and they work maybe 2 months to make it.
Again, it’s just the pro athletes that get screamed at.
Cano’s 2004 AA season:
.301 .356 .497 .853
Wang was beginning to break out with a 2.01 ERA in albeit a small sample size at AAA.
It would have been stupidly short-sighted to trade them given that they had all the leverage because they were the only team willing to give an aging RJ a three year deal, and no suit should ever conduct trade negotiations.
Cash was against that trade.
“Movie stars getting $20 million for 1 movie +, and they work maybe 2 months to make it.”
This is just such a ridiculous analogy.
It’s about having payroll room to acquire other quality players. The more you overpay a player, the less money there is (given their desire to stay at or around $200m) to sign other players. That affects their ability to win.
Rich in NJ -
Tell me when was the last time the Yankees team management didn’t care about winning it all. They will put a great team on the field, regardless of what they Jeter, or any other player they’ve over paid in the past to sign.
Will you be upset if they over pay Lee in order to insure him signing here? Where you upset they over paid CC to get him? Where you upset they over paid Tex to get him? The Yankees seem to always over pay to get the players they want, and I have no problem if they over pay Jeter on his last Yankees contract.
If a player is a true superstar in their prime, by all means, pay them according to what they produce.
Rich in NJ November 7th, 2010 at 2:29 pm
Cano’s 2004 AA season:
.301 .356 .497 .853
Wang was beginning to break out with a 2.01 ERA in albeit a small sample size at AAA.
It would have been stupidly short-sighted to trade them given that they had all the leverage because they were the only team willing to give an aging RJ a three year deal, and no suit should ever conduct trade negotiations.
Cash was against that trade.
———————————————————————————————————————-
Is it your idea that the rest of his AAA season shouldn’t count? He hit .281 for the season. If he was so highly thought of, he’d have been in NY instead of Cairo and he would have been in NY at the start of 2005 instead of a month later. He was only brought up because Womack stunk.
The problem is not many have a passion for Oprah the same way they have one for the Yankees. Buying a CD or DVD for $ 20 bucks is nothing, how many would buy one and be thinking where does my $ 20 go ? Very few. Not a valid comparison, imo.
Bottom line is that Pro Sports stands by itself and it is very difficult to compare to other forms of entertainment.
Remember what Hal said the other day, “I am running a business’ and have partners / shareholders to answer to. In the end (soon) Hal will do what is in the best interests of the Yankees keeping in mind Jeter’s legacy and his salary demands.
BIG AL
Who said they didn’t care about winning? That is a strawman argument.
But they do have a budget.
In 2004, George was willing to make one big expenditure. He chose RJ over Cash’s choice of Beltran. He also chose Sheffield over Cash’s choice of Vlad. If money didn’t matter, why not sign all of them?
Of course, they will pay big bucks to Lee, but that proves my point, not yours. They will pay him because he is still in his prime, unlike Jeter.
Similarly, they likely won’t sign Werth or Crawford because they have have a budget.
If money didn’t matter, they could also offer Soriano $15m-$20m a year to setup for Mo.
Of course, they won’t because, again, they have budget.
Every marginal dollar overspent on players that aren’t worth those dollars takes away dollars that could have been spent elsewhere because they have a budget.
I don’t understand why that is controversial.
Rich -
The point I was attempting to make is, fans in general seem to resent pro athletes making huge sums of money, but, don’t seem to be bothered by people in the entertainment field making much greater sums. Pro athletes are entertainment, with very special skills. Today, there are soccer players making A-Rods contract look cheap.
I for one have no fear that Jeter getting over paid will affect the quality of team the Yankees put on the field.
That’s all I have on the subject, I think its already been beat to death.
What ever they work out with jeter he should work for a dollar and defer the rest in order to have additional funds to spend on other players. Give him whatever he wants and defer his compensation.
Later folks
“Is it your idea that the rest of his AAA season shouldn’t count”
I wouldn’t say discounted, but given the development curve of most players, it wasn’t unexpected that Cano might struggle when he was first promoted.
IIRC, Cano was terrific in winter ball following the 2004 season, and they wanted him to start the season at AAA to finish off his development.
I don’t see what’s so unusual about that, and I don’t understand why that should have made him expendable for a 40 something starter with no cartilage in his knee and a balky back who, despite his great 2004 season, was a physical risk going forward, as proved to be the case.
Big Al
I don’t resent anyone athlete, Wall Street mogul, movie star, that gets paid for what they produce going forward, as opposed to what they did in the past.
But MLB is different because of the collateral effects of bad contracts.
If you insist on throwing out seasonal numbers, at least be honest about it and put out the real facts instead of your “facts”. You’re pretty consist about it though. You never give full facts…only those that you believe will make whatever arguement you have going that week. Next week, you’ll start on another crusade.
I was honest about it. I mentioned his AA numbers and anyone who wanted to look at a larger sample size could merely type Robinson Cano into the search box.
So my facts were accurate, and my conclusions were spot on.
Your facts were accurate only as far as you wanted them to be. Spot on? Don’t make me laugh.
Point out a fact that is inaccurate?