Awards season begins this week
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Nov 07, 2010 
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Tuesday, Nov. 9
AL Gold Glove Awards
Wednesday, Nov. 10
NL Gold Glove Awards
Silver Slugger Awards
Monday, Nov. 15
AL and NL Rookie of the Year
Tuesday, Nov. 16
NL Cy Young
Wednesday, Nov. 17
AL and NL Manager of the Year
Thursday, Nov. 18
AL Cy Young
Monday, Nov. 22
NL Most Valuable Player
Tuesday, Nov. 23
AL Most Valuable Player
Other dates to remember
Nov. 16-17
General Managers Meetings
Orlando, Fla.
In the past, the GM Meetings have been light on news and heavy on weak speculation, but this year teams can actually sign free agents at this point, so some actual news might come out of Orlando.
Nov. 17-18
Owners Meetings
Orlando, Fla.
Nov. 23
Last day for teams to offer salary arbitration to free agents in order to get draft-pick compensation.
Probably has no impact on the Yankees.
Nov. 30
Last day for free agents to accept arbitration offers.
Dec. 2
Last day for teams to tender 2011 contracts to players under reserve.
I would guess that Sergio Mitre is the Yankees top non-tender candidate, largely because they can get the same swing-man role out of Dustin Moseley for less money. Then again, Moseley could be non-tendered as well.
Dec. 6-9
Winter Meetings
Lake Buena Vista, Fla.
No team made more noise at last year’s Winter Meetings than the Yankees: They traded away Brian Bruney, traded for Curtis Granderson, re-signed Andy Pettitte and got the rights to Jamie Hoffmann in the Rule 5.
Associated Press photos of Robinson Cano and Brian Cashman
“It is the same thing! Yankee Global Enterprises is the corporation that owns it all. YGE is owned and controlled by the Steinbrenner family, Hank and Hal. They own both the Yankees and the YES network.”
————————————–
It is not the same thing in any sense of the word.
They are two distinct corporations.
The contract (84 million) goes to the Yankees. They dividends and such goes directly to the Steinbrenners.
They would then have to take the steps and make the decision to use their personal profit they gleam from YES and reinvest that in the Yankees.
True…..but they.could if they wanted. I.agree though that their” yankee.budget” probably is made discluding that money….
LGY – It’s a privately held company so what the public would know is limited. Hal and Hank can take money from any entity they own as long as they account for it according to IRS rules, etc. any corporate bylaws, and as long as the withdrawals are subject to any partnership agreements that have been drawn up with any other partners or investors.
I think we are saying the same thing.
“The contract (84 million) goes to the Yankees. They dividends and such goes directly to the Steinbrenners”
LGY
If you could name one player, most responsible for generating those 84 million (that you say are going straight in to the Steinbrenners’s pocket) who would it be?
That’s why his contract is about so much more than his stats.
One other thing, no one knows what Hal and Hank take out of YGE as shareholder income or what they take as salary.
WCYF,
Upon further review I think we may be saying the same thing also
I messed this whole convo up when it took me 3 posts to say one thing.
The ultimate point is that the Steinbrenners make a lot of money despite the Yankees payroll.
Well Tar, Casey Close agrees with you! lol
“Clearly, baseball is a business, and Derek’s impact on the sport’s most valuable franchise cannot be overstated”.
“but I’d really like to know who actually thinks that Derek Jeter couldn’t play a better RF then Nick Swisher?”
Defense – Yes
Prodction – No
Overall contribution – No
Tar,
If I had to choose one player I would say Jeter.
However, I think Jeter’s contribution to that money is very, very closely tied to the Yankees winning ways.
I think winning far and away leads to the Yankee revenues and trumps whatever Jeter provides in marketing power.
Which is why for me winning will always come first regardless of the players on the field.
LGY November 7th, 2010 at 6:48 pm
WCYF, Upon further review I think we may be saying the same thing also
I messed this whole convo up when it took me 3 posts to say one thing. 
*************
No you didn’t mess anything up. You communicated very well, it’s a tough thing to put succinctly into words. Well articulated on your part.
Blake hit the nail on the head. Hal and Hank make a whole lot a money! And just think, some day they are probably going to sell that puppy and have the absolutely horrible problem on the hands of figuring out what to do with $2 billion dollars!
“Like Pettite why can’t he accept a short term contract and then go year to year as long as he is productive?”
Pettitte was crucified on this board and has since shut everyone up. Like Pettitte, I believe Jeter will shut up a lot of folks around here.
Tar,
Derek Sanderson Jeter
Swisher has much more outfield experience than Jeter, I think he’d play a better outfield than Jeter atleast for 1 season, and why move Jeter and deal with the adjustment period?
“If I had to choose one player I would say Jeter.
However, I think Jeter’s contribution to that money is very, very closely tied to the Yankees winning ways.
I think winning far and away leads to the Yankee revenues and trumps whatever Jeter provides in marketing power.
Which is why for me winning will always come first regardless of the players on the field.”
Well said.
Even with Jeter, if the team loses the revenues go down.
Even without Jeter, the team keeps winning the revenues go up.
That is why the length of his contract is very critical.
As great and beloved as Derek Jeter is, other great Yankees who seemed irreplaceable at the time came before him and others will come after him. Jeter is just “our” guy since most of us have seen his entire career in pinstripes up close and personal.
The Yankees survived quite well after Ruth, Gerhig, Dimaggio, Berra, Mantle, etc. It will do the same after Jeter and Mo.
WCYF,
I would gladly accept a problem like that.
“Pettitte was crucified on this board and has since shut everyone up. Like Pettitte, I believe Jeter will shut up a lot of folks around here.”
What does that mean….
If Jeter accepts annual contracts like Pettitte everyone including Steinbrenners will be very happy. As long as he is productive he will keep getting new contract for next year. He will make more money too if he is willing to take that risk.
“However, I think Jeter’s contribution to that money is very, very closely tied to the Yankees winning ways”
Agree 100%. Jeter is a winner. He is the epitomy of a winner.
“I think winning far and away leads to the Yankee revenues and trumps whatever Jeter provides in marketing power.”
I also agree with this. He is the best available SS. Pay him so they can keep winning. Also, see my above statement.
I still think Jeter can help them win….
“I also agree with this. He is the best available SS. Pay him so they can keep winning. Also, see my above statement.”
————————————————
The ultimate goal is to win not just next year, but every year.
I guess some people here just can not accept the fact that as Jeter gets older his performance will diminish. Unfortunately, it is natural that as players age, even the great ones like Jeter, thier performance will diminish.
BBFan
Defense – Yes
Prodction – No
Overall contribution – No
*************************************************************************
After just one poor season at the plate, you’re going to tell me that Swisher contributes more to the team then Jeter??
In my opinion Swisher in RF at times is an adventure, he gambles too often on balls he can’t to and another thing he does often that really irks me is miss the cut-off man. he does not have an accurate arm but that doesn’t stop him from launching some throws that he has no business attempting.
blake,
Come over to the dark side like I did. I can sense that you want to
“After just one poor season at the plate, you’re going to tell me that Swisher contributes more to the team then Jeter??”
Do not take things out of context.
We are talkinmg about at this time in their careers and thier ages and thier values in the next two or three years. Also, you are only refering to defense. Production is as important for the corner positions.
Noone is questioning Jeter’s lifetime contributions.
Poor defense can lose ballgames too.
I’ve seen the Yankees sign too many one dimensional ballplayers in recent times to believe otherwise.
One player?
Mariano Rivera…without him closing the tight games, the Yankees would not have won those championships–whcih generated such fan interest.
“I guess some people here just can not accept the fact that as Jeter gets older his performance will diminish.”
this can be said for every player who ever played the game.
It’s all about timing.
And since you mentioned Pettitte, what better example to bring up than Andy. I was here when it got real ugly regarding Andy Pettitte. This Jeter bashing is very reminiscent of the talk regarding AP. Every one was so sure Andy was “washed up”. Oops.
LGY,
I sense an unbalance in the force…..perhaps you should come on back before we have to change your handle to Darth LGY.
“And since you mentioned Pettitte, what better example to bring up than Andy. I was here when it got real ugly regarding Andy Pettitte. This Jeter bashing is very reminiscent of the talk regarding AP. Every one was so sure Andy was “washed up”. Oops.”
————————————-
I didn’t think Andy would bounce back to pitch this well the past couple years, but I didn’t think he was washed up.
However, Andy took a $5.5 million contract with innings pitch incentives and proved he was still Old Reliable.
Is Derek going to take a contract like that?
BBFan
“Do not take things out of context.
We are talkinmg about at this time in their careers and thier ages and thier values in the next two or three years.”
**************************************************************************
One freaking bad season at the plate and he’s done???
How do you know what Jeter will do next season? You don’t have a clue.
You’re rating Swisher who is coming off his best season as being able to contribute more to the team then Jeter after one poor season at the plate.
Swisher is defensively challenged, there is more of a likelyhood that Jeter has a great season next year then Swisher will just based on the past.
After Jeter, Mo and Lee – what about the pen? There’s some decent setup options out there. Wood and Benoit might go for a closer role, but you never know. Money, etc.
Benoit
Wood
Rauch
Gregg
Fuentes
Downs
Guerrier
“blake,
Come over to the dark side like I did. I can sense that you want to ”
Ha ha nice try. You forget he is a Tar Heel.
“Is Derek going to take a contract like that?”
He shouldn’t have to. And I don’t think the union would allow it ayway.
There are examples all through baseball history of great players having a bad season then bouncing back the next season.
I’m just not ready to jump ship after the career Jeter has had.
I just can’t believe all the doom and gloom Jeter is done garbage.
You guys are too much, I’m outta here.
I’m going on 48 hours with no sleep. I don’t think I can make it to spring training.
While it is a separate legal entity, the YES Network is functionally almost a kind of shell company.
For the most part YES has one asset of any substantial value – the 12 years or so remaining on the contract providing it with the exclusive rights to televise the Yankees. That’s it. And the Steinbrenners, don’t control the majority of YES, do control the majority of the asset that YES is completely dependent on.
YES is theoretically work $3B or whatever the exact figure is now. If tomorrow the Steinbrenners announced that the Yankees would not be renewing their contract with YES, then YES would functionally be worth a relatively trivial amount.
That means that it’s the Steinbrenner’s – despite the fact that they don’t have majority controlling interest of YES – who have all of the power within YES. I’d guess the internal workings of the organization and the way it’s board is structured reflects this.
These are all privately held companies who can largely act as they chose. If the Steinbrenners want to I’d guess they could funnel significant sums of money from YES to the yankees – sums exceeding the specific broadcasting rights valuations and the proportion of dividends earned by the Steinbrenner, etc.
YES makes its money largely as a function of Yankee TV ratings. If the Yankees needs money for investment in order to maintain or improve ratings there is going to be flexibility in how YES “invests” in the Yankees.
And practically speaking, if the other partner’s in YES don’t agree, then the Steinbrienners can just tell them to take a hike and refuse to renew the Yankee’s contract with YES which would destroy the equity of the other partners.
That would be a hassle for the Steinbrenners but they can then just start their own new TV network to broadcast all of the yankee games once the YES deal is over. And in that new network they could own 100% of it if they want. They already know the model is going to work based on the YES experience. They also know how to create the appropriate infrastructure needed to set up a station.
YES has no tangible, long term assets. They have TV rights for a finite period of time. Having the rights to an asset for a limited period of time can be very precarious. That’s why the yankees never signed a 100 year deal with YES despite the presence of the Steinbrenner family on both sides. That gives the Steinbrenner’s control of YES in a very pragmatic fashion despite proportions of equity.
Hal and Hank are calling the shots at YES regardless of the proportions of the ownership. And how YES acts financially is going to be defined by them in all likelihood. The equity stakes don’t reflect the workings of the company because one of the partners owns the asset that provides YES with nearly all of it’s revenues and overall value.
The formal amount that YES pays the Yankees for their broadcast rights is the foundation of the financial relationship but it’s also secondary in many ways. Whether and to what degree money is going from YES to the Yankees aside from the formal broadcast deal there’s really no good way to know because all of the books are private.
But while they are separate legal entities, YES is almost completely beholden to the Yankees and likely to how the Steinbrenners want things run.
A CB sighting…..thanks for the input!
“Ha ha nice try. You forget he is a Tar Heel.”
———————
Tar,
The plan is to bring as many people as possible over to the dark side to silence the opposition. I sense blake is close. His will is breaking.
If I was you I would make a move quick over to this side so you are not the lone ranger over there. We may start denying applications if it becomes to full.
“One freaking bad season at the plate and he’s done???
How do you know what Jeter will do next season? You don’t have a clue.
You’re rating Swisher who is coming off his best season as being able to contribute more to the team then Jeter after one poor season at the plate.
Swisher is defensively challenged, there is more of a likelyhood that Jeter has a great season next year then Swisher will just based on the past.”
I do not know how Jeter will do next year or for that matter any player will do next year. You do not know either.
However I do know that Jeter will be 37 years and as players age thier performance diminishes.
I apprecaite you faith in Jeter, but you can disagree with others views without throwing stupid statemnets out there.
CB,
Nice post.
The question is then, would the Steinbrenners ever do that though. Transfer YES profits to the Yankees. IMO they never would unless things go really bad on the field for a sustained period.
“If I was you I would make a move quick over to this side so you are not the lone ranger over there. We may start denying applications if it becomes to full”
And piss GB off, you’re crazy!
The dark side is a bunch of cupcakes compared to GB and his Blunderbuss.
BBFan
“However I do know that Jeter will be 37 years and as players age thier performance diminishes.
I apprecaite you faith in Jeter, but you can disagree with others views without throwing stupid statemnets out there.”
*************************************************************************
Stupid huh?
Seasons at age 38
1. Ted Williams .388 1957
2. Ty Cobb .378 1925
3. Eddie Collins .346 1925
4. Cy Williams .345 1926
5. Barry Bonds .341 2003
6. Cal Ripken .340 1999
7. Jake Daubert .336 1922
8. Nap Lajoie .335 1913
9. Kenny Lofton .335 2005
10. Pete Rose .331 1979
http://www.baseball-reference......_bat.shtml
LGY,
I’m not really close at all. Still think the the Captain has gas left in the tank and think all this talk is much ado about nothing really.
CB,
did you see Banuelos last night? First time for me and I really liked what I saw. He seems to generate velocity pretty easily for a guy his size and that change up has the potential to be a real plus big league pitch. I like.
“but I’d really like to know who actually thinks that Derek Jeter couldn’t play a better RF then Nick Swisher?”
You mean if Jeter started playing the OF 4 years ago, right?
You mean if they were the same age, right?
You’re not comparing a 40 year old Jeter with ZERO experience in the OF to Swisher, are you? Really?????
Have you every played the game?
Do you think it only takes a few fly balls before you learn how to track the best routes to balls hit 380? in the gap?
Playing OF may be easier then playing INF (although it’s a different skill set), but it still ain’t easy.
And by the way, check this out.
http://www.baseball-reference&.....ni01.shtml
Swisher, over his career, is a dead average OFer.
However, that is because he sucked in CF, somewhere he never should have been placed.
Careerwise, he is an above average RFer, and a well above average LFer.
And according to THIS YEARS Bill James Handbook: (h/t WasWatching.com)
LF: Brett Gardner +13 Runs Saved
RF: Nick Swisher +7 Runs Saved
2B: Robinson Cano +7 Runs Saved
CF: Curtis Granderson +4 Runs Saved
1B: Mark Teixeira -1 Run Saved
3B: Alex Rodriguez -5 Runs Saved
C: Jorge Posada -8 Runs Saved
SS: Derek Jeter -13 Runs Saved
Yes, Swisher was tied for our 2nd best fielder (although Teix should be in there, and maybe Curtis), and Jeter was by far the worst. That’s this year. Think 2012 and 2013.
Do you have ANY facts, stats, or other’s educated opionions to back up any of your opinions?
Tar,
We need to get Darth LGY some Jerkface anti-venom
Tar,
We need to get Darth LGY some Jerkface anti-venom
Tar,
May be you should check how those same guys did at age 39, 40 and 41 as well.
My guess is you want Jeter to get a long contract…..to the detriment of the team.
Giuseppe Franco
November 7th, 2010 at 6:32 pm
In a nut shell I hope the Yankees have learned from the ARod blunder of re-signing him when he opted out and don’t do anymore of these expensive sentimental contracts for any players into their mid 40’s.
IMO, these types of contracts hurt the team in the long haul with the large dollars, decreased production, increased injuries as well as holding the team back from infusing new younger talent.
Oh you said he would be age 37 I’m sorry.
Seasons at age 37
1. Tris Speaker .389 1925
2. Tony Gwynn .372 1997
3. Barry Bonds .370 2002
4. Nap Lajoie .368 1912
5. Jim Eisenreich .361 1996
6. Zack Wheat .359 1925
7. Eddie Collins .349 1924
8. Ted Williams .345 1956
9. Cap Anson .342 1889
10. Paul Molitor .341 1994
OldYanksFan
Sparky Anderson had it right when he said Bill James was a short fat man with a beard who knew nothing about nothing.
What does that say about you?
LGY-
If needed to I’d guess the Steinbrenners would move money from YES to the Yankees. In some ways it makes sense for them to do so. If nothing else it’s very much in YES interest for the Yankees to be as good as possible (at least to some ceiling).
There’s a lot of grey areas here because of the mutual interest of the Steinbrenner’s. The Yankees formal deal with YES is actually not very good. If the Steinbrenners had wanted to they could have gotten a much better deal from the MSG network.
And I’d bet the farm that the Steinbrenner’s aren’t losing any potential money in the deal between YES and the Yankees. The innner workings of YES I’m sure are very complicated with significant revenues going to the Steinbrenner’s that aren’t necessarily proportional to equity stakes.
Owner’s do use personal money to support their teams. Mike Illitch has invested a substantial amount of his own personal money into the Tigers outside of his own purchasing of the team, for example. The NETS new owner is going to do this in a big way (or to whatever degree it’s possible with the NBA cap). It’s done in soccer as well.
With the Yankees vs. YES the money to some degree is fungible on a practical level, especially since the TV deal itself represents the Steinbrenner’s negotiating with/”against” themselves.
Overall, the Yankees independent revenues are so high that it’s probably not necessary for YES to move significant money to the Yanks. But I don’t see why that would be a problem if needed.
First lets take out all the players who played before 1990.
Now lets look. We have Tony Gwynn, Barry Bonds, Jim Eisenreich, and Paul Molitor.
Barry Bonds? Is jeter suddenly on HGH as well as being the greatest hitter of our generation with the plate discipline, swing, and pitch recognition that is legendary? No? Ok.
Paul Molitor OPS’d .900 at age 36, and played in only 112 games as a 37 year old, mostly at DH. Had considerably better plate discipline and power than Jeter. Not really the same, huh?
Eisenreach, actually I don’t know much about him, but he seemed to be awfully lucky as a 37 year old, and then OPS’d .700 and .500 the next 2 seasons.
Finally, Tony Gwynn??? Are you kidding me? One of the better average hitters of our lifetime? He hit .390, .360, .350, and then .370 in succession!
These are all players that jeter is not. Jeters last 3 seasons combined including his great 09 is: .301 .369 .414 .783
RhapsodyInBlue and Tar
(from Baseball Reference)
Swisher:
2009: 3.7 WAR $5.4m – $1.5m/Win
2010: 4.0 WAR $6.9m – $1.7m/Win
2 yr average: 3.85
average cost/Win $1.6m
2008: 2.7 WAR $21.6m – $8.0m/Win
2009: 6.5 WAR $21.6m – $3.3m/Win
2010: 1.3 WAR $22.6m – $17.4m/Win
3 yr average: 3.50
average cost/Win $6.3m
Did you 2 know that there are actually websites that track player’s performances?
6+ hours since I last checked in and the debate is still going.
Has anyone had their minds changed because someone made an argument too compelling to ignore? I’m guessing the answer is no.
“In a nut shell I hope the Yankees have learned from the ARod blunder of re-signing him when he opted out and don’t do anymore of these expensive sentimental contracts for any players into their mid 40’s. ”
The contract to Alex can be called lots of things but “sentimental” is not one them. Alex’s contract was a business decision. Nothing sentimental about it.
Blake-
I was out last night and didn’t get a chance to watch the game. I was assuming it would be shown again on the mlb network but there seems to be no end to how often they can show world series highlights. Also haven’t seen it available on the web which is really unfortunate. Perhaps I’m just not finding the link.
From what I’ve read it sounds like he threw the ball great. I looked at gameday – his velocity was very impressive. I’ve seen clips of him throwing and I really like the way he throws the ball. It comes out of his hand well.
He’s not finished developing but he has both an enormous ceiling and a high floor. He’s only 19 and he’s coming very fast. He just needs some refinement on his off speed stuff and experience.
” Yes, Swisher was tied for our 2nd best fielder ”
OldYanksFan
First, the whole Jeter to the OF is a not worth debating.
Second, I am no sabre. But doesn’t it mean that -7 for Swish means he was 7 runs better than an average RF. Even if that was accurate, how does that equate to our 2nd best fielder.
IMO no way does Swish save more runs than Tex. My list would start with Tex, Cano, Gardner and everyone after that is debatable.
Jerkface
Of course no one expects Jeter to put up the same numbers as Gwynn at 37 that’s not the point.
The point is that age 37 is not necessarily the end of the line for Jeter.
I wouldn’t expect someone like to Jeter to decline for a few more years because of the condition he has maintained throughout his career. I think Ted Williams dropped off dramatically at age 40 and retired at age 41.
Age 37 for a hitter isn’t a death knell, especially for a player like Jeter for example who has rarely had any major injuries because of his maintained level of fitness.
CB,
Hopefully they will show it again. He only threw 2 innings but I was really surprised and impressed at how easily he generated that 95. Very free and easy….doesn’t seem to use a lot of energy. He had some bad luck but the highlight of the outing was the Ackley AB. He threw a nice sequence of pitches to him and struck him out on a painted fastball….it was lefty-lefty but Ackley is a very good hitter….not easy to make him look bad.
The point is that age 37 is not necessarily the end of the line for Jeter. Age 37 for a hitter isn’t a death knell, especially for a player like Jeter for example who has rarely had any major injuries because of his maintained level of fitness.
–
See, this is where we disagree. Age 37 is not a death knell for some hitters, but none of those players listed showed considerable down turns in their career before their Age 37 seasons. Find me players who dropped .200 points in OPS then bounced back ? Jeter has NOT been free from major injury. He has dealt with hand injuries constantly due to his HBP, but chooses to play through it instead of going on the DL. That is where month long stretches of Jeter hitting .200 with no power come from.
The fact is, Jeter showed zero power in 2008 but did not look much different at the plate. In 09, predictably, he bounced back. In 2010 he looked finished. He got crushed by right handed pitching , hit less balls the opposite way, swung and missed more, swung more often, hit more ground balls, less line drives, hit for less power than ever.
If Ted Williams OPS’d 1.000 at Age 36, I’d not predict him to suck at Age 37. Jeter has not been Jeter 2 out of the last 3 seasons.
What about that gives you confidence that he is going to perform like 4 completely out of the norm players in history?
Tar… I mentioned that Teix should be in there. Defensive stats are inconsistant, and it is well know that many systems don’t rate 1Bs and Catchers well. However, if gives you a relative idea where players stand… especially when you compile years of data.
Go to THIS Page:
http://www.baseball-reference......ni01.shtml
Look under:
Standard Fielding
Check out the Column:
rTot/yr (Runs above/below average)
See where for Swishers career, for RF he rates at: 6
See where for Swishers career, for LF he rates at: 12
Do you question this?
Or that even if the numbers are not exactly accurate, that Swish is at least somewhat above average?
Jeter, by the way, is -8. (That’s negative… below average)
Per Ronald Blum at AP
“NEW YORK, N.Y. ? The Yankees called Cliff Lee’s agent Sunday on the first day of the free-agent negotiating period to say they will be back in touch with an offer for the top pitcher on the market, a baseball official familiar with the conversation told The Associated Press.”
Robbie gets his gold glove Tuesday.
CB,
You haven’t be around much lately. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate what I believe is an attorney’s opinion. It answers many of the money issue questions that have been discussed.
———————————————————————————
Derek Jeter is not washed up yet. He is the face of the Yankees along with Mo and has been for a long time. I love Andy and appreciate Posada, but in my on mind, they are not on the same pedestal as Derek and Mo. From my own perspective, I appreciate them all. Over and over I have said and I believe Jeter will not play if he cannot be the kind of player he expects of himself. One bad year of hitting does not make a career. Teixera surely matched him when it came to batting average as did Rodriguez.
It is hard to read all these negatives about one year, and I find it incredible that fans such as you all are can dismiss all the wonderful years, and not believe that Derek was hurt or whatever. If this had happened when he was 30, it would have been just a bad year, but because he is 36, he is all washed up. Ridiculous!!!!
jerkface
I suppose because I believe that Jeter to be an exceptional player and talent.
I’ve followed the game for close to 60 years.
I think what he has accomplished in his career up to this point validates my opinion.
As far as injuries go, being injured by a pitch isn’t due to lack of conditioning.
This is a morose pessimistic group.
Jerkface,
We are not talking about Ted Williams or Mickey Mantle or Ty Cobb.
Jeter IS an exceptional talent, but he has only ever OPS’d .900+ twice. When you’re talking about a lower baseline of talent, its not that difficult to far into an unacceptable range.
Jeter’s biggest advantage has been sticking at short stop, despite poor defense, where his bat was better than most other short stops. Another advantage is that he has managed to stay there while other guys like Nomar, Tejada, and A-rod were moved/injured/old.
Now Jeter is old.
We’re talking about Jeter having to gain .100 points in his OPS, realistically, to be worth 20 million dollars.
He isn’t going to find it by walking. Which means he has to hit for a higher average and with more power. If he continues to hit 65% ground balls its not going to happen.
Jeter is the worst hitter in the line-up AND the worst fielder. He just finished an outrageous $189M contract during which he “led” his team to ONE championship. He’s going on 37 years old and will be 38 and 39 if he gets three years. How in the world is he worth the money some of you think he deserves? Memories are memories. You don’t clog up the line-up and tie up payroll just for sentimentality. Go hang his picture on your wall if you can’t live without him. Cut his salary, trim the years and free up the money so it can be spent on the future…not the past!
OldYanksFan
I am not going to get into a debate of Jeter over Swish. I was very impressed with the improvements Swish made in all aspects of his game. That’s not my argument.
BTW, Who do you propose play SS next year and at what pay?
Jeter’s defense isn’t poor. There is more than one aspect of playing that position.
I don’t think anyone is worried about 37 year old Jeter in 2011. I think we all expect him to be significantly better then in 2010.
I don’t think anyone is too worried about 38 year old Jeter in 2012. It’s hard to guess where his numbers will be.
I think everyone is a bit worried about a 39 year old Jeter in 2013, especially his defense. It could be down right terrible, and might lose half of what he makes on offense.
I think everyone is scared sh*tless about a 40 year old Jeter in 2014, where he might play on the field, and who will help him up and down the dugout steps.
Derek averaged a 3.5 WAR over the last 3 years. He could average 3.0 WAR over the next 3, although I don’t think it’s probable. If he did, it would put his annual value at $13.5m.
“He isn’t going to find it by walking”
He was second in the league at his position in walks. 1 behind the leader
Jeter might be 37 but I’ve been reading about his defensive shortcomings since he broke into the game.
Jeter was never Vizquel defensively, but he was much better than he is now.
“BTW, Who do you propose play SS next year and at what pay?”
I propose Derek Jeter at 3/$40m.
I will guess Derek Jeter at 3/$50m.
I give it a 37.291% chance that 2012 Nunez is better (O and D) then 2012 Jeter.
OldYanksFan November 7th, 2010 at 7:35 pm
And according to THIS YEARS Bill James Handbook: (h/t WasWatching.com)
LF: Brett Gardner +13 Runs Saved
RF: Nick Swisher +7 Runs Saved
2B: Robinson Cano +7 Runs Saved
CF: Curtis Granderson +4 Runs Saved
1B: Mark Teixeira -1 Run Saved
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Can someone explain to me how Bill James Handbook determined that Tex’s glove translated to a -1 Run Saved rating this year, and then maybe why we’re supposed to take it seriously?
Offensively, I expect Jeter to have a much better year.
What concerns me is his diminished range at SS.
“Jeter’s defense isn’t poor. There is more than one aspect of playing that position.”
Ummmm… like what? Leadership? Intangibles? Grittiness? Gutsiness?
“Jeter’s defense isn’t poor”
Do you have ANY stats or educated opinions or links to back that up?
ANY?
OldYanksFan
We are not that far apart.
But one thing I will say, is Derek is not going to stick around when he is done.
This notion of Jeters contract being an albatross around the Yankees neck is in a word, silly.
“It is hard to read all these negatives about one year, and I find it incredible that fans such as you all are can dismiss all the wonderful years, and not believe that Derek was hurt or whatever. If this had happened when he was 30, it would have been just a bad year, but because he is 36, he is all washed up. Ridiculous!!!!”
No one is dismissing anything. They are analyzing the data of the last three years and reaching a fact-based conclusion.
Others seem to want the Yankees to invest in a budget-constraining contract based on a hunch.
That is not only ridiculous, it’s reckless.
GAME ON BOYS AND GIRLS!
Yankees Contact Cliff Lee’s Agent
By Luke Adams
[November 7, 2010 at 7:12pm CST]
“As expected, the Yankees moved quickly to contract the representation for Cliff Lee, according to an AP report (via ESPN). A baseball official says that the Yankees told Lee’s agent, Darek Braunecker, that they will be back in touch later with a contract offer for the left-hander”.
“Do you have ANY stats or educated opinions or links to back that up?
ANY?”
A lot of us have “educated opions”. We watch the game and all think the same thing.
The Stats you quote say is Tex is -1. And is far from being accurate.
BJK – Defensive metrics are not good on 1Bmen and Catchers.
1Bman in general were rated lower then any other position.
Youk, who is generally considered outstanding, got a 4.
Pujols, also considered outstanding, got a 0 one year.
But you have seen Teix run. He is slow. He has great hands and catches everything he can reach. But he does not have above average range.
Jeter’s UZR was better last year than it was in 2005, 2006, and 2007.
OldYanksFan, if you want to believe he’s a poor defender then fine….I really don’t care.
“But you have seen Teix run.”
Yeah you are right I mean Pujols and Youk are real speedsters, huh.
How dare you question Bill James.
I think his group rated Tex 6th for MLB 1st basemen.
Youk was 7.
UZR for any given season has to be viewed with large error bars.
It will be interesting when some of you young guys get older because your perspective will change dramatically. 36 which is the age Jeter will be at the start of the season isn’t old. You are talking about a very small window in time when a player is in his prime. Everybody’s body ages differently. I don’t know all the mathematical stats you guys use, but I do know what I see. Other than Derek’s bat which definitely was not up to par, I didn’t see that much difference in his fielding than other SS’s including his back ups.
oldyanksfan has Bill James wallpaper in his livingroom.
Rich,
So why is 2010 singled out on here so often?
“The problems with defensive stats”
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
“It will be interesting when some of you young guys get older because your perspective will change dramatically. ”
I’m not young.
“36 which is the age Jeter will be at the start of the season isn’t old”
In terms of MLB history, it is for a SS.
SAS
Believe your lying eyes.
For those interested in Defensive fielding stats:
http://www.billjamesonline.net.....ummary.asp
Check out the “Plus/Minus” Link for actual data.
blake
Defensively? I’m not sure, maybe because his apparent improvement in 2009 didn’t appear to be enduring either statistically or via observation.
“Indefensible
What Do We Really Know About Defense?”
http://www.baseballprospectus......leid=11476
I watched nearly every game in 2010 as I did in 2009 and I didn’t see the dramatic dropoff in defensive ability from Jeter. The defensive metrics have him having a much worse year but we have already established the error involved in yearly samples of those.
Rich,
If we are to believe those numbers then Jeter has been a slightly below average defender for most of his.career….then channeled ozzie smith for one.year at 35….then went back to his norm in 2010. Its just not realistic nor do I think its the case.
Im not he is a great SS at this point in his career but I do think he is better than a lot give him credit for and that his deficiencies are overstated.
OldYanksFan November 7th, 2010 at 8:40 pm
BJK – Defensive metrics are not good on 1Bmen and Catchers.
1Bman in general were rated lower then any other position.
Youk, who is generally considered outstanding, got a 4.
Pujols, also considered outstanding, got a 0 one year.
But you have seen Teix run. He is slow. He has great hands and catches everything he can reach. But he does not have above average range.
—————————————————————————————————-
I can accept the argument that defensive metrics are not good on first basemen and catchers, but if that’s the case, they shouldn’t group them in with everyone else, or make an adjustment.
I’m not going to get into a debate about whether or not Tex has above average range. You can’t win or lose that argument. I will say that I’m pretty confident that Tex saves a lot more runs with his hands than he costs with his range.
A -1 rating should be pretty preposterous to anyone who sees him play.
Heaven forbid Bill James can’t be wrong.
I’ve been watching the game for 60 years but had to wait for you guys to come along before I understood what I was watching.
This is pretty interesting stuff.
http://www.billjamesonline.net...../jeter.asp
RhapsodyInBlue…
How many games have you seen with your eyes?
The guys that collect these defensive stats have video tape on EVERY SINGLE PLAY in a season. EVERY PLAY. They also have more then 1 person interpreting a play. They also can review the video many times. They also do not publish findings based on HE’S MY FAVORITE PLAYER. They also use computers to help crunch vast amounts of varied data. They take this stuff very seriously. They publish their findings knowing that everyone will scrutinize it.
Why don’t you read up on their methodology and tell me what you find flawed.
“they shouldn’t group them in with everyone else, or make an adjustment.”
They don’t. 1Bman are rated and compared to other 1Bman, 2Bman are rated and compared to other 2Bman, etc.
http://www.billjamesonline.net.....erview.asp
“Well, this is the weakest position for the Plus/Minus System. Most defensive measures have trouble with first basemen. Putouts simply tell you how many groundouts were hit against the team, more a function of the pitchers and other infielders. First baseman assists might have some meaning, but there is no real consensus about what, and they are not reliable as an indicator of range due to the discretionary nature of the play on which the great majority of first base assists occur, the 3-1 flip. Some first basemen just prefer to step on the bag themselves. There are no range factors at first base. While we are measuring very meaningful information on first basemen in the Plus/Minus System, we are missing one huge element: the ability to handle throws, especially of the errant variety, made by the other infielders.
Another defensive element that is not measured by plus/minus, but we are measuring in this book, is the handling of bunts.”
OldYanksFan November 7th, 2010 at 9:21 pm
RhapsodyInBlue…
How many games have you seen with your eyes?
The guys that collect these defensive stats have video tape on EVERY SINGLE PLAY in a season. EVERY PLAY. They also have more then 1 person interpreting a play. They also can review the video many times. They also do not publish findings based on HE’S MY FAVORITE PLAYER. They also use computers to help crunch vast amounts of varied data. They take this stuff very seriously. They publish their findings knowing that everyone will scrutinize it.
Why don’t you read up on their methodology and tell me what you find flawed.
———————————————————————————————————————-
They have a bunch of fat kids in front of monitors with pizza sauce and Clearasil on their fingers and faces. They fail to take into account the pitcher missing his spots, weather, field conditions, the opponents ability to pull of a hit and run, pulling the defense out of position. Those seem like pretty significant factors to me.
The significant factors you point out are the same for everyone so comparisons are valid. Its not like Jeter has all those things working against him while others are getting grounders hit right to them on beautiful, dry nights.