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Tex, walking without a limp, takes healthy cuts at defensive stats

Posted by: Sam Borden - Posted in Misc on Nov 12, 2010 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

ALCS Angels Yankees BaseballFrom the Yankees perspective, the most important thing to come out of Mark Teixeira’s appearance at the Lou Gehrig Sports Awards dinner last night was that the first baseman was reportedly walking without much of a limp. He says his hamstring is improving and that, if this were in-season, he’d be back on the field in just a few weeks.

The more interesting aspect of Teixeira’s comments, at least since we’re out of season, may have come when he was asked about Derek Jeter winning another Gold Glove award this week.

Teixeira defended Jeter winning the award and also criticized a defensive metric that indicates Jeter – as well as Robinson Cano and Teixeira himself – were below par in the field this past season.

“I hear about this UZR, Ultimate Zone Rating,” Teixeira said, “and I saw Robinson Cano has a negative Ultimate Zone Rating. That is absolutely crazy. Robinson Cano is by far … the best second baseman I’ve ever seen and he’s a negative defender by that Ultimate Zone Rating. So I don’t put any stock into those things.”

Just for the record, Teixeira was a minus-2.7, Cano was a minus-0.6 and Jeter was a minus-4.7 in UZR, according to Fangraphs.com. Teixeira, however, wasn’t much convinced.

“Derek had a great season at short,” Teixeira said. “He turns a double play as well as anybody. He deserved the Gold Glove. Look at his statistics. And you also have to realize the flashy plays aren’t really where it’s at. It’s great if you get to a ball and people say ‘look at his range.’ Derek may not have as much range, but what good is it if you get to a ball and then throw it away? Now the guy is on second base.”

* See? According to this AP shot, Teixeira really does like his fellow infielders a lot.

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568 Responses to “Tex, walking without a limp, takes healthy cuts at defensive stats”

  1. Erin November 12th, 2010 at 3:02 pm

    I love that picture. :)

    And very good news that Tex didn’t have a limp.

  2. blake November 12th, 2010 at 3:02 pm

    Well said Tex.

  3. Betsy November 12th, 2010 at 3:05 pm

    Good for Tex….

  4. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 3:06 pm

    What was Tex supposed to say? They all stink?

  5. AldotheApache November 12th, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    Tex didn’t have to say anything. But he did, with good reason.

  6. Pat M. November 12th, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    Video game stuff ……

  7. ericns1 November 12th, 2010 at 3:12 pm

    Way to go Tex!

  8. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 3:13 pm

    “Derek may not have as much range, but what good is it if you get to a ball and then throw it away? Now the guy is on second base.””

    I agree with with Tex. Actually, it’s best if you don’t get to any balls, it keeps all those runners off second base.

  9. blake November 12th, 2010 at 3:16 pm

    Wave,

    Serious question…when these guys record the data for these stats…are they taking in to account that a throw has to be made when deciding whether a ball could have been fielded?

  10. Yanksgal07 November 12th, 2010 at 3:18 pm

    I’m with Tex…. anything that would rate Cano or Tex for that matter as negative defenders is a joke. I go to plenty of games every season and just about every one of them has Tex, Cano and even DJ making some great fielding plays. Also Tex said …it’s great to make a fancy “range” play but what good is it if you throw the ball away after making it.

    As far as I’m concerned they can take UZR and put it where the sun don’t shine …:).

    Go Yankees 2011 !!!

  11. NYY626 - Andy in 2011 November 12th, 2010 at 3:18 pm

    i predict this thread will be filled with 200 posts of people claiming they know more about baseball than mark teixeira.

  12. BIG AL November 12th, 2010 at 3:20 pm

    NYY626 – Andy in 2011 November 12th, 2010 at 3:18 pm
    i predict this thread will be filled with 200 posts of people claiming they know more about baseball than mark teixeira.

    ————
    Only 200?

  13. Patrick November 12th, 2010 at 3:21 pm

    Tex is obviously going to defend his teammates and he should. And I do agree with him that UZR isn’t the best way to evaluate defense. I think the best method is to watch every play of every game which I (for the most part) did this season!

    Jeter clearly lost a step this year in the field, he was not very good. He wasn’t as bad as he was a few years back but he was significantly worse than last year.

    Teixeira remains one of the best fielding 1B in the league and deserved his GG.

    There is no way Cano has below average range at 2B. He absolutely deserved to win the gold glove. Robbie makes plays at second that I’ve never seen second basemen make before.

  14. BIG AL November 12th, 2010 at 3:21 pm

    Later -

  15. NYY626 - Andy in 2011 November 12th, 2010 at 3:22 pm

    Big Al – its a friday in the offseason, i figured some people might be out….lol

  16. Erin November 12th, 2010 at 3:25 pm

    NYY626- :lol:

  17. DaSaint007 November 12th, 2010 at 3:26 pm

    Jeter has lost a couple steps, and frankly never had tremendous range anyway. That said, if I’m starting a team and am asked who I want to be my starting 2B right now, I’ll take him. The good definitely outweigh the bad.

    Now ask me that in 3 or 4 years and I’d think I have a different answer.

  18. raymagnetic November 12th, 2010 at 3:26 pm

    Does UZR also have a guy determining how hard a ball is hit by watching film?

  19. pat November 12th, 2010 at 3:26 pm

    “i predict this thread will be filled with 200 posts of people claiming they know more about baseball than mark teixeira.”

    I’m predicting if Jeter had Ramirez’s fielding stats, people here would be screaming Jeter got robbed. :wink:

  20. upstate kate November 12th, 2010 at 3:27 pm

    good news on Tex! He has always had wonderful things to say about Robbie. I am amazed at some of the plays Tex and Robbie make, and I still love seeing Jeet do the jump throw.

  21. raymagnetic November 12th, 2010 at 3:27 pm

    You want Jeter as your 2B :shock:

  22. Erin November 12th, 2010 at 3:28 pm

    DaSaint007 November 12th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
    Jeter has lost a couple steps, and frankly never had tremendous range anyway. That said, if I?m starting a team and am asked who I want to be my starting 2B right now, I’ll take him

    ************************
    Jeter can stick to SS

    Cano’s got 2B covered. ;)

  23. disco stu November 12th, 2010 at 3:28 pm

    Obviously, there will come a time where Jeter will need to move off of short stop and have someone else (Eduardo Nunuez?) take over. But it is not off of his defensive perfomance these last 2 years.

    I actually think Jeter was better in the field this past season than he was in 2009.

    What is continually mind-bogglilng is how “experts” talk about Jeter’s declining range at short … the fact is Jeter has always been better going to his right than to his left … but year after year, he finds a way to make the plays.

    Also, it is pretty funny how none of these experts criticizing Jeter’s Gold Glove based on his negative UZR are not criticizing Cano and Tex for the same thing.

    Perception is reality I guess for certain people.

  24. tyanksfan36 November 12th, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    Tex said exactly what I said and I got criticized for it. I said what is the point of getting to the ball, making an errant throw and instead of just getting on base they end up at 2nd. Thanks for backing me up Tex. Much appreciated.

  25. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    blake-

    To be honest, I don’t know. I think they just record where they think the ball was hit, how hard it was hit, and whether the play was made or not, but it is hard to find the exact methodology on the internet. Perhaps because it’s proprietary? But it makes it hard to discuss these things intelligently.

    I do know UZR and Defensive Runs Saved are based on video data, while Total Zone and BP’s previous metrics were based on data from press box observers. BP is developing a more mathematical model which doesn’t rely on observations at all – tackling questions like we’ve been wondering about lately, like how did Alexei Ramirez or Cliff Pennington end up with 150 more chances than Derek Jeter?

    Colin Wyers at BP has been writing some very good articles about fielding metrics. They are behind a paywall, but (I credit Steve Goldman here), this article is available without a subscription and I recommend it:

    http://www.baseballprospectus......leid=12399

  26. DaSaint007 November 12th, 2010 at 3:32 pm

    Folks, this is what happens when you don’t eat lunch. Jeter as my starting 2B. Sheesh!

    Of course – Jeter as my starting SS.

  27. pat November 12th, 2010 at 3:33 pm

    GMs starting to get busy….

    jonmorosi #Athletics claim Edwin Encarnacion on waivers.

    jonmorosi #Phillies sign Eddie Bonine, source tells FOXSports.com.

  28. AldotheApache November 12th, 2010 at 3:33 pm

    Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 3:30 pm
    blake-

    To be honest, I don’t know. I think they just record where they think the ball was hit, how hard it was hit, and whether the play was made or not, but it is hard to find the exact methodology on the internet. Perhaps because it’s proprietary?

    ————————————————————-

    And subjective?

  29. DaSaint007 November 12th, 2010 at 3:34 pm

    low hanging – and cheap – fruit starting to come off the market.
    Bet all the high-priced talent are still available after Christmas.
    The best sales are always after Christmas.

  30. blake November 12th, 2010 at 3:36 pm

    “But it makes it hard to discuss these things intelligently.”

    I agree, if I knew more about the specifics of how these numbers were calculated then perhaps I could have more faith in them….but as it stands, its hard for me to trust them….seems there is a lot of mystery involved. For example, there is a pretty big difference in whether a ball could have been fielded and whether an out could have been recorded….and either determination is pretty subjective.

  31. mick November 12th, 2010 at 3:37 pm

    “I hear about this UZR, Ultimate Zone Rating,” Teixeira said, “and I saw Robinson Cano has a negative Ultimate Zone Rating. That is absolutely crazy. Robinson Cano is by far … the best second baseman I’ve ever seen and he’s a negative defender by that Ultimate Zone Rating. So I don’t put any stock into those things.”
    =======================
    So there you go. Why not use these stats to determine anything?
    Because they’re for nerds, that’s why.

  32. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 3:39 pm

    Compared to some of the other defensive stats, UZR was actually kind to Jeter.

  33. Joe from Long Island November 12th, 2010 at 3:39 pm

    Nice read about Tex.

    Re: UZR and stats – I like what Jeter’s take – “I don’t play video games.”

  34. disco stu November 12th, 2010 at 3:40 pm

    Another thing abou Jeter’s underrated or underappreciated skills at SS …

    You would be hard pressed to find many other shortstops today who are as “smart” at fielding their position as Jeter. How many times does Jeter fail to make a play – not just grounders, but cutoffs, relays, backing up, steal attempts, etc. because he was either out of position or botched the play? Very rarely, if ever.

    There are some things that you simply can’t just quantify and draw a statistical conclusion.

  35. mick November 12th, 2010 at 3:40 pm

    Re: UZR and stats – I like what Jeter’s take – “I don’t play video games.”
    ====================
    Jeter is not of this generation and we should be glad about that.

  36. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 3:41 pm

    “And subjective?”

    I don’t see how it wouldn’t be, to some degree. Supporters of fielding metrics would claim that watching and recording plays with a methodology for recording where the ball was hit, etc., is less subjective than other methods (say, just watching), but there is clearly subjectivity there.

  37. blake November 12th, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    “You would be hard pressed to find many other shortstops today who are as “smart” at fielding their position as Jeter. How many times does Jeter fail to make a play – not just grounders, but cutoffs, relays, backing up, steal attempts, etc. because he was either out of position or botched the play? Very rarely, if ever.”

    Very true

  38. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 3:43 pm

    blake-

    One commonly used example – how do you tell from typical video where the ball actually is? I don’t know.

  39. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 3:43 pm

    “Jeter is not of this generation and we should be glad about that.”

    ——————————

    Maybe not.

    Apparently for several years in the mid 2000s Jeter was oblivious to how poor his defense was.

  40. Rich in NJ November 12th, 2010 at 3:46 pm

    If Teix thinks that Jeter had a great season at SS, he should run for public office.

  41. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 3:46 pm

    blake-

    However, I am still troubled by the fact that Ramirez and Pennington had around 150 more chances (assists + errors) than Jeter. That’s an awful lot, and I’m not convinced it can all be explained away by pitchers, parks, batters, etc.

  42. Mell November 12th, 2010 at 3:46 pm

    “You would be hard pressed to find many other shortstops today who are as “smart” at fielding their position as Jeter”

    Speaking of subjective….

  43. mick November 12th, 2010 at 3:48 pm

    Apparently for several years in the mid 2000s Jeter was oblivious to how poor his defense was.
    ===============
    “Poor” by whose standards?
    His defense has nothing to do with the fact that he is of a different generation.
    His baseball IQ does and the way he conducts himself on and off the field does.

  44. AldotheApache November 12th, 2010 at 3:49 pm

    Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 3:41 pm
    “And subjective?”

    I don’t see how it wouldn’t be, to some degree. Supporters of fielding metrics would claim that watching and recording plays with a methodology for recording where the ball was hit, etc., is less subjective than other methods (say, just watching), but there is clearly subjectivity there.

    ————————————————

    So then when subjectivity is introduced, such as how hard a ball is hit, then human bias is introduced along with it.

    Such as an espn.com writer who’s been trashing Jeter’s skills since 2001, when he was 27 (Neyer)

  45. tyanksfan36 November 12th, 2010 at 3:50 pm

    Disco stu
    You would be hard pressed to find many other shortstops today who are as “smart” at fielding their position as Jeter. How many times does Jeter fail to make a play – not just grounders, but cutoffs, relays, backing up, steal attempts, etc. because he was either out of position or botched the play? Very rarely, if ever.

    There are some things that you simply can’t just quantify and draw a statistical conclusion.

    _________

    Absolutely agree with this. Unfortunately there aren’t enough of us that feel this way about him which is a shame.

  46. mick November 12th, 2010 at 3:50 pm

    However, I am still troubled by the fact that Ramirez and Pennington had around 150 more chances (assists + errors) than Jeter. That’s an awful lot, and I’m not convinced it can all be explained away by pitchers, parks, batters, etc.
    ================================
    WYH
    The Yanks didn’t have many groundball pitchers, maybe those other teams did, just sayin.

  47. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 3:52 pm

    ““Poor” by whose standards?
    His defense has nothing to do with the fact that he is of a different generation.
    His baseball IQ does and the way he conducts himself on and off the field does.”

    ———————————-

    The Yankees standards?

    Cashman had to approach him after 2007 about his defense and Jeter apparently had no idea until Cashman told him.

  48. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 3:53 pm

    “So then when subjectivity is introduced, such as how hard a ball is hit, then human bias is introduced along with it.”

    Aldo, subjectivity was introduced a long time before that. Find me an example of a judgment about fielding ability that isn’t subjective and full of “human bias”?

    You can’t attack fielding metrics merely because they are subjective. You have to argue why they are more subjective than the judgments you’d like to use.

    I’m not defending the new fielding metrics here, just saying how do you know your judgments (or Girardi’s, for that matter) are any better?

  49. mick November 12th, 2010 at 3:56 pm

    It has become chic to trash Jeter, why is that?
    One off year.
    Would like to know the age parameters of the trashers?
    Old school vs new school?
    The what-have -you-done-for-me-lately instant gratification crowd vs. the more patient, older group?
    Who cares, really?
    Jeter certainly doesn’t.

  50. blake November 12th, 2010 at 3:56 pm

    Wave,

    That is a lot but there are just so many variables at play, some of it has to be attributed to those players having more range…..but how much is hard to determine.

  51. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 3:57 pm

    mick-

    The Yankee pitchers’ GB% was around 30% of all batters faced. Oakland’s about 32% and Chicago’s about 31.5%, if that helps.

  52. blake November 12th, 2010 at 3:57 pm

    Jeter had one less TC in 2010 as he did in 2009 (the year everyone says he was great defensively)

  53. Mell November 12th, 2010 at 3:58 pm

    “The Yanks didn’t have many groundball pitchers, maybe those other teams did, just sayin.”

    Yankees (31%) were at about the league average (32%) in opposition plate appearances that resulted in ground balls. White Sox (Ramirez) were at 32% and Oakland (Pennington) was at 33%

  54. mick November 12th, 2010 at 3:59 pm

    The Yankees standards?

    Cashman had to approach him after 2007 about his defense and Jeter apparently had no idea until Cashman told him.
    ==================
    How do you know that? Because Jeter said he had no idea, if he did?
    Jeter knows when he is good or bad like any other ballplayer with 1/2 a brain.
    What does this have to do with baseball IQ?

  55. mick November 12th, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    The Yankee pitchers’ GB% was around 30% of all batters faced. Oakland’s about 32% and Chicago’s about 31.5%, if that helps.
    ==========================
    wyh

    thanks. it was a little lower but as you say might not account for the difference.
    i wonder in the general scheme of things how important this stat is.

  56. blake November 12th, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    “The Yankee pitchers’ GB% was around 30% of all batters faced. Oakland’s about 32% and Chicago’s about 31.5%, if that helps.”

    but what percentage of those ground balls were hit hard and what percentage were hit in areas that couldn’t be fielded….a Mo Rivera sawed off grounder to 2B is different than an AJ Burnet laser up the middle.

  57. 108 stitches November 12th, 2010 at 4:05 pm

    I can live with Teixeira’s early season slow starts because his glove and heads up play are a difference maker. His slumps stay in the dugout when he’s on the field.

  58. blake November 12th, 2010 at 4:05 pm

    what I mean is that one pitching staff could give up 30% ground balls and those ground balls could mostly be easy to field, while another staff could give up 30 % ground balls and a higher percentage of those could be hit hard or hit in areas that can’t be fielded……all ground balls aren’t created equally.

  59. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 4:08 pm

    “but what percentage of those ground balls were hit hard and what percentage were hit in areas that couldn’t be fielded”

    blake-

    I don’t know. But let’s just look at assists, and let’s say we can explain away half of the difference between Jeter and Pennington/Ramirez. That’s still 65 singles, equal to about 30 runs, about 3 wins.

    One thing I did notice is that the Oakland staff faced significantly more right handed batters, so that has to explain some of Pennington’s advantage at least.

  60. mick November 12th, 2010 at 4:09 pm

    Anybody disagree that Tex should be up at least 5th to start the season with Robbie 3rd?
    This could also serve as a jumpstart for Tex.
    I remember Robbie perpetually starting slow for years.
    Tex certainly needs help in this area and Girardi would be well served to try something.

  61. bruceb November 12th, 2010 at 4:09 pm

    The reason it has become “chic” to criticize Jeter is because he’s no longer a player of All Star caliber. Instead, he’s become a liability. He can’t hit – at least, not at the level he used to – and his fielding skills are diminished. He may be a Yankee legend but the Yankees are all about winning, and the question is: can they still win with Jeter at shortstop? Only in baseball could a player in decline expect to earn MORE rather than LESS money in his dotage. In most walks of life, you suck at your job and you either take a pay cut or get fired.

  62. mick November 12th, 2010 at 4:12 pm

    I don’t know. But let’s just look at assists, and let’s say we can explain away half of the difference between Jeter and Pennington/Ramirez. That’s still 65 singles, equal to about 30 runs, about 3 wins.
    ======================
    wyh

    while all ground balls might not be created equal, all teams certainly are not.
    if this were a significant statistic it would result in more than a 3 win difference.
    while we score more runs, we have more margin for error.

  63. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 4:12 pm

    “In most walks of life, you suck at your job and you either take a pay cut or get fired.”

    Or get kicked upstairs.

  64. AldotheApache November 12th, 2010 at 4:13 pm

    Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 3:53 pm

    You can’t attack fielding metrics merely because they are subjective. You have to argue why they are more subjective than the judgments you’d like to use.

    I’m not defending the new fielding metrics here, just saying how do you know your judgments (or Girardi’s, for that matter) are any better?

    ———————————————————–

    WYH, I can’t attack something because it’s subjective? (too strong a word … ‘dismiss’ is more like it)

    Of course, I can.

    For one thing, wherever there’s authorship, there’s bias. Second, I have YET to see one reasonable explanation of how Cano’s and Tex’s negative fielding numbers can be explained away. Third, those stats are the baseball equivalent of that age-old marital dilemma question, “Who’re you gonna believe, me or your lyin eyes?”

    I’ll say it hopefully for the one last time. Jeter is a true leader out on the field, right place at the right time with the right decisions. No one, imo, is more reliable than he is. There is no one I’d rather see a ball hit to than him.

    One final question. Is there anyone in the game that is in a better position to judge fielding ability than the managers and coaches.

    On the other hand, as I noted the other day, Keith Law and Rob Neyer were denied admission to the BBWAA a couple of years back for failing to meet their criteria for BASEBALL GAMES ACTUALLY ATTENDED!

  65. mick November 12th, 2010 at 4:13 pm

    The reason it has become “chic” to criticize Jeter is because he’s no longer a player of All Star caliber.
    ======================
    as they say..small sample size…let’s see how he does this year, then talk.

  66. blake November 12th, 2010 at 4:14 pm

    Wave,

    Pennington also made about 20 more errors as well… to me you can’t conclude that 65 more singles would equal 3 more wins any more than you can that 20 more errors would.

    My point was that better pitching staff are more likely to throw ground balls that their fielders can field….that’s why they are good.

  67. Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 4:17 pm

    Pennington also made about 20 more errors as well… to me you can’t conclude that 65 more singles would equal 3 more wins any more than you can that 20 more errors would.

    So even with 20 extra errors he still fielded 45 more balls than Jeter, and those 20 errors are 20 plays Jeter did not even make.

  68. Doreen November 12th, 2010 at 4:17 pm

    Sam -

    While I am really happy to hear that Tex is not limping around and is in generally good spirits, did you have to open this can of worms again?? I thought we’d finally left it behind and found another subject to beat to death.

    :?

  69. tyanksfan36 November 12th, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    mick says:

    November 12, 2010 at 3:56 pm

    It has become chic to trash Jeter, why is that?
    One off year.
    Would like to know the age parameters of the trashers?
    Old school vs new school?
    The what-have -you-done-for-me-lately instant gratification crowd vs. the more patient, older group?
    Who cares, really?
    Jeter certainly doesn’

    —–

    I’m 23 and I don’t want instant gratification with my team. I don’t want anyone else to play SS for us, Jeter has been there since I became a fan and he can do no wrong in my eyes. I want them to bring up the young guys instead of bringing in people. Other teams (mainly their fans) hate the Yankees and one of the reasons is because they go out and buy established talent. I won’t get into the granderson/jackson argument but one could certainly bring it up. I sometimes think its easier for fans of the pirates and nationals because they don’t have to deal with the expectation of winning every year. Its like a victory when the Yankees fail, I can’t count how many people commented to me when I wore my Yankees shirts after we lost “oh I guess money can’t buy championships” and many other things like that. If we start promoting from within at least we can say that these are our guys that we developed and we didn’t have to take what was already out there.

  70. raymagnetic November 12th, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    Despite Jeter’s bad year he was still above average for his position meaning he wasn’t a liability at all.

  71. mick November 12th, 2010 at 4:21 pm

    tyanks

    you are an exception to the rule.

  72. Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 4:22 pm

    Cano’s UZR is negative because their system has him ranging less than the average second baseman, while making significantly fewer errors and being above average at turning a double play. I can recall many instances of Cano diving, but being too tall to effectively snare the ball, or just plain not reaching balls so I can see where that might penalize him.

    However he is also one of the only 2B who could hit a speedy runner at first from behind second base bag, and is almost guaranteed to turn every double play with great speed and arm strength.

    Mark Ellis and Orlando Hudson were both given very good range scores, and from seeing Ellis play I can see why he should win a gold glove.

  73. blake November 12th, 2010 at 4:22 pm

    Jerkface,

    In a vacuum….baseball is played on a field.

  74. Rich in NJ November 12th, 2010 at 4:22 pm

    I don’t think that Jeter was a liability, except batting leadoff against RH pitching:

    .246 .316 .317 .633

    The issue with Jeter going forward is mostly about years and money.

  75. mick November 12th, 2010 at 4:22 pm

    What would you like to talk about Doreen? :)

  76. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    blake-

    Yes, I agree you have to give negative credit for the extra errors. I don’t know exactly how to do that, but certainly you have to subtract. On the other hand, I may have been generous in saying you could explain away half of the extra assists – maybe you can’t.

    My point is just to say we need to think about these things. If you haven’t read that article I linked to above you should.

    mick-

    How does Oakland’s coach know how good Jeter is compared to Pennington? He sees Jeter what, 8 times a year? Does he remember every play Jeter made, and every play Jeter didn’t? You don’t think his preconceptions about how good Jeter is defensively bias his judgment about, and his recollections of, the plays Jeter made or didn’t make?

    Look, as I’ve said 4 or 5 times, I’m not defending the new fielding metrics. I think there are serious questions about them. But I think there are serious questions about all of these judgments, new or not.

  77. bruceb November 12th, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    Here come the Jeter apologists as per usual. Let’s see whether you’re still preaching from the same hymn book this time next year?

  78. Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 4:24 pm

    In a vacuum….baseball is played on a field.

    In a vacuum what? In a vacuum or on the field Jeter made less plays than other short stops.
    The only way an increase in errors hurts those short stops is if they don’t make extra plays, but to a man all of them did.

  79. mick November 12th, 2010 at 4:24 pm

    With these stats out there , how could MLB allow coaches and mgrs to vote on GG’s?

    It’s like allowing the fans to vote for MVP’s.

  80. mick November 12th, 2010 at 4:27 pm

    WYH

    When baseball becomes a science then we can go to these definitive stats and rate player awards.
    We can do the same for MVP and Cy Young as well.

    But as long as it’s a game and games are fun, it will stay this way, and we are lucky if it does.

  81. Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 4:28 pm

    With these stats out there , how could MLB allow coaches and mgrs to vote on GG’s?

    Because they’ve always done it that way? I think its silly to have coaches and managers vote who either saw the player a few times or not at all (accounting for trades, DL stints, etc).

    Its where you end up with things like Joe Crede getting the silver slugger over A-rod and Raffy palmero winning a GG with 28 games played at the position.

  82. mick November 12th, 2010 at 4:28 pm

    Here come the Jeter apologists as per usual. Let’s see whether you’re still preaching from the same hymn book this time next year?
    ==========================
    Time will tell, can you read the future?

  83. blake November 12th, 2010 at 4:29 pm

    Wave,

    Ill read it. Im not anti-statistics as much as it may seem. Im just very skeptical of the current ones regarding defense.

  84. Erin November 12th, 2010 at 4:30 pm

    mick November 12th, 2010 at 4:24 pm

    It?s like allowing the fans to vote for MVP?s.

    *************************
    if fans voted for the MVP, with all of the votes from me alone, Robbie would be MVP for sure!!! ;)

  85. mick November 12th, 2010 at 4:31 pm

    Its where you end up with things like Joe Crede getting the silver slugger over A-rod and Raffy palmero winning a GG with 28 games played at the position.
    ========================
    I agree with that point but it is not an exact science like some want it to be.
    They get it right most of the time.

  86. mick November 12th, 2010 at 4:31 pm

    if fans voted for the MVP, with all of the votes from me alone, Robbie would be MVP for sure!!!
    =================
    Thanks Erin for proving my point :)

  87. Doreen November 12th, 2010 at 4:31 pm

    I love the word “apologists.” As if one has to apologize for wanting to reserve judgment on Jeter’s so-called demise. IF his numbers go down by the end of the 2011 season, then, for sure, one could make a reasonable statement about Jeter’s performance hitting or heading toward its nadir. But I don’t think that’s the necessary conclusion after one bad season, which followed a career best season, a season which saw him play more games than in the prior several seasons.

  88. Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 4:32 pm

    They get it right most of the time.

    But how can you know? Torii Hunter has 9 straight gold gloves before this year, and he was done being an elite centerfielder 4 seasons ago. Many deserving outfielders were passed up by the ‘name recognition’ of torii hunter.

    I’m sure there are similiar examples all over. Once a player gets a gold glove, its 70/30 that they will end up holding on to the GG spot at their position for a couple of years, deserved or not.

  89. Erin November 12th, 2010 at 4:33 pm

    mick-anytime. ;)

  90. Pat M. November 12th, 2010 at 4:33 pm

    Face, I wonder how many of those 20 extra base runners that were gifted 1st base due to Pennington’s miscues came around and scored ???? You are really reaching on this as a method to rag on Jeter……One of the reason the Yanks traded for Bucky Dent back in The Bronx Zoo days was they liked his steady play….Make the routine outs…..GaryTempleton had incredible range, but was prone to making errors on the routine plays…..

  91. blake November 12th, 2010 at 4:33 pm

    Jerkface,

    Its in a vacuum because you are assuming that those extra plays that Pennington made, Jeter wouldn’t have made. Of course there is no way of knowing that given that he was in Oakland and Jeter was in NY. You are drawing conclusions from two seperate sets of numbers that were obtained with a whole host of different variables in each setting….you may be comfortable taking that as gospel but Im not.

  92. mick November 12th, 2010 at 4:34 pm

    Doreen

    Most of the apologists are not Yankee fans.
    They are haters who think Jeter is arrogant.
    Jeter is the face of the Yankees.

  93. Rich in NJ November 12th, 2010 at 4:34 pm

    “I love the word “apologists.” As if one has to apologize for wanting to reserve judgment on Jeter’s so-called demise.”

    Doreen

    The word “apologis” shouldn’t apply to anyone except those that think that Jeter is beyond criticism, that he deserves not only respect but deference, and as a result, is bigger than the team.

  94. AldotheApache November 12th, 2010 at 4:35 pm

    Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 4:22 pm
    Cano’s UZR is negative because their system has him ranging less than the average second baseman, while making significantly fewer errors and being above average at turning a double play.

    ————————————-

    Jerkface, nothing personal but that’s just a crock. I see Robbie Cano REGULARLY track down ground balls both behind second base AND in the hole. That is range. and no one is better than he is at making a hard, accurate throw while going to his right.

    As for Tex … the Yankees set a franchise fielding record this past season, and if there one person most responsible for that, it’s him.

  95. Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 4:36 pm

    Face, I wonder how many of those 20 extra base runners that were gifted 1st base due to Pennington’s miscues came around and scored ???? You are really reaching on this as a method to rag on Jeter

    Ok and how many of the extra base runners Jeter allowed by not making a play came around to score or ALLOWED runs to score. All errors are not created equally after all. A bobble on the infield stops a guy from scoring from 2nd, a clean hit through the hole doesn’t

    I think there is enough evidence, in tradition stats, sabermetric stats, and by the eye test to say that Jeter did not deserve to get a Gold Glove.

    I still want him at SS for the next 2 season, regardless.

  96. mick November 12th, 2010 at 4:37 pm

    But how can you know?

    Jerk

    That’s what makes it baseball. You don’t know. It’s not science, it’s a game. I think you know this and love to antagonize. :)

  97. Melk Man November 12th, 2010 at 4:37 pm

    “The issue with Jeter going forward is mostly about years and money.”

    And where he bats in the lineup

  98. tyanksfan36 November 12th, 2010 at 4:37 pm

    mick says:

    November 12, 2010 at 4:21 pm

    tyanks

    you are an exception to the rule

    _____

    I think its because I have learned to be content with what I have. I never got the shiny new toy. I always wanted a power wheels car, I’d ask my parents every year for christmas and my birthday. My mom would tell me to go sit on my bike and ask my brother to push me around.

  99. jacksquat November 12th, 2010 at 4:38 pm

    Some extra ground balls through the left side of the infield is not all that important that it seriously hurts the team. The team is fine with Jeter at SS the next 2 or 3 years, even with him having below average range on ground balls. They have legit gold gloves on the right side of the infield and outstanding fielders in left and center. Yankee fans have certainly watched worse defense many years.

  100. Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 4:38 pm

    Jerkface, nothing personal but that’s just a crock. I see Robbie Cano REGULARLY track down ground balls both behind second base AND in the hole.

    We saw it, I saw it, but maybe he was positioned well on those plays? Maybe another 2B could make it to those balls from farther out, giving them a wider range of plays to make. I think Robbie deserved a GG, but I can see where UZR would ding him on range.

  101. Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 4:41 pm

    That’s what makes it baseball. You don’t know. It’s not science, it’s a game.

    And yet teams try to come up with methods to win this game every season. Until we get cameras that track the players (Field/PlayerFX coming soon) and combined with the batspeed data (HitFX, already in use but not public) then we’re not going to be able to get everything exact, but there is no harm in trying.

    It may be a game, but the Yankees are trying to mercilessly crush the other teams every year to win a World Series. They try to win, and the more information they have the better.

  102. Rich in NJ November 12th, 2010 at 4:42 pm

    “And where he bats in the lineup”

    Yes, I think I mentioned that this morning, so I agree.

  103. mick November 12th, 2010 at 4:42 pm

    I think its because I have learned to be content with what I have. I never got the shiny new toy. I always wanted a power wheels car, I’d ask my parents every year for christmas and my birthday. My mom would tell me to go sit on my bike and ask my brother to push me around.
    ===============

    Tyanks knows the secret to life.
    Be content with what you have.
    Do not discard a Jeter for one below average year.
    Give him another shot .
    Let his teammates help him on the bike and push him around to another championship.

  104. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 4:43 pm

    Pat M,

    How many times have you said on this board Tex saves so many errors?

  105. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 4:44 pm

    Baseball Prospectus’ new fielding metrics have Tex as the best defensive first baseman.

  106. Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 4:45 pm

    I don’t think anyone wants to Jettison Jeter after this year. All the consternation is on giving him a contract beyond his ability to fulfill.

    my dream deal is a 2 year 30 million contract. I’d accept a 2 year with an option year, and I am fully prepared for it to be 3 years guaranteed with a salary of around 17 mil.

    its when the AAV reaches 20, and the years go beyond 3 that it gets dicey and I envision the corpse of Jeter shuffling around the bases while all of his luster fades in the eyes of the fans because he is hitting .250

  107. Tom in N.J. November 12th, 2010 at 4:46 pm

    He doesn’t have the range. But he plays a competent short stop.

  108. mick November 12th, 2010 at 4:46 pm

    Jeters propensity to swing at the 1st pitch was more evident last year than ever before, of course I have no statistics to prove this, but I am going by the naked eye.

    Batting him 2nd next year will force him, as well as Gardner being more aggressive on the bases,
    to change his ways and set the tone, as in the past, to make the pitcher work harder, always a Yankee trademark.

    So it shall pass:
    Gardner
    Jeter
    Cano
    Alex
    Tex
    And it will be good.

  109. BTX November 12th, 2010 at 4:46 pm

    “With these stats out there , how could MLB allow coaches and mgrs to vote on GG’s?”

    Kay was talking about that earlier this week…. said a lot of managers don’t take the voting seriously. Said he personally knows managers who allow the clubhouse attendants (and other lower level staff) to fill out the ballots. (sounds like something Torre would do)

    He also mentioned something that should be obvious – at the end of a long season, are managers really going to bother looking up the stats, UZR ratings, etc. for every position to fill out some meaningless ballot? Jerry Manual knew he was gone at the end of the yr, how much time do you think he put into his selections? He probably let that gambling clubhouse guy fill out his ballot.

    They will award it the guy who is the best known. You think the Colorado manager knows who the hell Chad Pennington is? But he knows who Derek Jeter is.

    The assumption that the award is a reflection of what managers thought of Jeter’s fielding is a shaky one at best.

  110. Tom in N.J. November 12th, 2010 at 4:47 pm

    Zombie Jeter?

  111. CB November 12th, 2010 at 4:47 pm

    “To be honest, I don’t know. I think they just record where they think the ball was hit, how hard it was hit, and whether the play was made or not, but it is hard to find the exact methodology on the internet. Perhaps because it’s proprietary? But it makes it hard to discuss these things intelligently.”

    This is one of the central issues with defensive metrics and one I’ve tried to bring up several times in the past.

    The issues isn’t “subjectivity.” It’s the transparency and validity of the methodology.

    It’s extremely difficult to interpret data unless you have a full and comprehensive understanding of how that data was generated. How batting average or on base percentage is generated is very clear and transparent. The same doesn’t hold for defensive data.

    This is a generic problem that you encounter whenever you deal with proprietary metrics. It happens in all sorts of fields. In general, analysts and researchers find proprietary metrics to be of extremely limited value because their validity is often impossible to evaluate.

    For example, one of the basic differences between UZR and +/- is the size of the zones constructed. Unfortunately, I don’t believe it’s possible to know exactly how large those zones are and even more importantly why they are developed to be the size that they are. If you don’t even know this, it’s very difficult to make sense of the data. (Maybe this information is available somewhere but I’ve looked extensively and haven’t found it and when data is transparent it shouldn’t be this difficult to find things like that).

  112. AldotheApache November 12th, 2010 at 4:47 pm

    Wait a minute … I just noticed in that picture above, Robbie’s missing!

    Must be his lack of range. Slow to the celebration.

  113. Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 4:48 pm

    Even if the managers look at stats, they’ll likely look at the ones in the Box score. “Jeter had 6 errors? Must be good” but Yankee fans know Tex has been worth his weight in gold gloves at 1st base in scooping errant throws and making great stretches.

  114. bruceb November 12th, 2010 at 4:48 pm

    Most of the apologists are not Yankee fans.
    They are haters who think Jeter is arrogant.
    Jeter is the face of the Yankees.

    He may be the face of the Yankees but he sure ain’t the voice of the Yankees. When was the last time he said anything worth listening to? Come to think of it, when was the last time he did anything to win a game for his team? I don’t think he’s arrogant…I KNOW he is arrogant. Anyone who has earned $200m plus from an organization yet still believes he’s worth twice his market value is quite clearly a person who puts himself first and last.

  115. Yank 97 November 12th, 2010 at 4:51 pm

    “So it shall pass:
    Gardner
    Jeter
    Cano
    Alex
    Tex
    And it will be good.”

    But then you would lose the double leadoff spot, by putting Montero/Posada at the bottom.

    Other than that, I like your idea.

  116. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 4:52 pm

    “Zombie Jeter?”

    ———————————————-

    Heh. That reminded my of a show Wife Swap. One of the wives literally believed zombies would exist in 2012 and prepared her children to fight zombies. That was one of the most bizarre things I have ever watched on TV.

  117. mick November 12th, 2010 at 4:52 pm

    Kay was talking about that earlier this week…. said a lot of managers don’t take the voting seriously.
    ===============================
    Like the ones who voted for Palmiero when he played 28 games at 1st in 99.
    That was a farce.
    Posnanski thinks it is an award based on how they played the game, a recognition award, maybe a popularity contest, an educated guess.

  118. Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 4:53 pm

    But then you would lose the double leadoff spot, by putting Montero/Posada at the bottom.

    How? Once you go through the lineup its the same damn thing.

  119. AldotheApache November 12th, 2010 at 4:53 pm

    CB November 12th, 2010 at 4:47 pm

    The issues isn’t “subjectivity.” It’s the transparency and validity of the methodology.

    ———————————————

    Maybe it’s just me, but it seems like if a methodology is not transparent and can’t be validated, then it’s subjective.

    And as someone mentioned above, there are so many variables …

  120. mick November 12th, 2010 at 4:54 pm

    But then you would lose the double leadoff spot, by putting Montero/Posada at the bottom.
    ===============================================
    6- Montero
    7-Swisher
    8-Posada
    9-Granderson

  121. Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 4:55 pm

    Putting Gardner first gives him the most PA in the league, which combined with his high OBP and steals will give the yankees constant pressure. batting him 9th gives him the least PAs on the team.

    Its all the same as the game progresses.

    1
    2
    3
    4
    5
    6
    7
    8
    9
    1
    2
    3
    4
    5
    6
    7
    .
    .
    .

  122. West Coast Yankee Fan November 12th, 2010 at 4:55 pm

    Logic would dictate that their is room for both one’s eyes, traditional statistics and metrics in evaluating ballplayers. To exclude one in deference to another makes no sense. How many good recipes call for just one ingredient? (ok maybe bacon).

    What the metric aficionados relinquish is the art of the game. It’s beauty is often reflected in it’s imperfections. It’s not supposed to be totally fair. If you hit the ball hard right at someone – hey, that’s baseball.

  123. mick November 12th, 2010 at 4:56 pm

    When was the last time he said anything worth listening to?
    ======================================
    He’s not a talk show host and you are not a Yankee fan.

  124. Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 4:56 pm

    Next year I would bat the following

    Gardner
    Jeter vs LHP / Granderson vs RHP
    Cano
    A-rod
    Tex
    Swisher
    Posada
    Montero
    Granderson vs LHP / Jeter vs RHP

  125. Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 4:57 pm

    Montero would move up as he establishes himself

  126. AldotheApache November 12th, 2010 at 4:58 pm

    bruceb November 12th, 2010 at 4:48 pm
    Most of the apologists are not Yankee fans.
    They are haters who think Jeter is arrogant.
    Jeter is the face of the Yankees.

    He may be the face of the Yankees but he sure ain’t the voice of the Yankees. When was the last time he said anything worth listening to? Come to think of it, when was the last time he did anything to win a game for his team? I don’t think he’s arrogant…I KNOW he is arrogant. Anyone who has earned $200m plus from an organization yet still believes he’s worth twice his market value is quite clearly a person who puts himself first and last.

    ————————————————————

    When was the last time Jeter said anything worth listening to?

    When was the last time he did anything to win the game for his team?

    You KNOW he’s arrogant?

    You must be either a Mets fan, or are new to the game, or both.

  127. Tom in N.J. November 12th, 2010 at 4:58 pm

    I’d flip Swish and Granderson.

  128. Dylan November 12th, 2010 at 5:00 pm

    # Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 4:56 pm

    Next year I would bat the following

    Gardner
    Jeter vs LHP / Granderson vs RHP
    Cano
    A-rod
    Tex
    Swisher
    Posada
    Montero
    Granderson vs LHP / Jeter vs RHP
    _____________________________________________________________________

    I like that lineup, though I would be shocked if the Yankees batted Jeter 9th. Joe refused to drop Tex in the lineup, when he wasn’t hitting at all, and Cano was tearing the cover off the ball.

  129. mick November 12th, 2010 at 5:00 pm

    Swish, Montero and Posada are interchangeable, probably best to put Montero between the 2 switchers.
    Granderson is a natural for 9th in the Scottie Brosius hole.

  130. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 5:01 pm

    I’m sorry i have to jump in here… Patrick…. *shakes heads*

    “And I do agree with him that UZR isn’t the best way to evaluate defense. I think the best method is to watch every play of every game which I (for the most part) did this season!”

    You do realize this is… EXACTLY… how UZR is calculated. except trying to remember 1200 plays they write them down.

  131. Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 5:01 pm

    They really have to give Cano more PA’s though, you can’t hide his bat 5th. Those extra 20-40 PA’s during the year could come up big for Cano.

  132. bruceb November 12th, 2010 at 5:02 pm

    mick November 12th, 2010 at 4:56 pm
    When was the last time he said anything worth listening to?
    ======================================
    He’s not a talk show host and you are not a Yankee fan.

    I am a Yankee fan. I am not a fan of Derek Jeter. The two can actually coexist.

  133. Doreen November 12th, 2010 at 5:02 pm

    CB -

    Is that why teams develop their own way of rating fielding? At least in that way it’s transparent to them and they can evaluate players in a way that is meaningful to them.

  134. jacksquat November 12th, 2010 at 5:02 pm

    JerkfaceNovember 12th, 2010 at 4:56 pmNext year I would bat the following
    Gardner
    Jeter vs LHP / Granderson vs RHP
    Cano
    A-rod
    Tex
    Swisher
    Posada
    Montero
    Granderson vs LHP / Jeter vs RHP

    JerkfaceNovember 12th, 2010 at 4:57 pmMontero would move up as he establishes himself

    ———————-

    Exactly how I would do it.

  135. Pat M. November 12th, 2010 at 5:02 pm

    LGY…..Over the history of baseball a solid 1st baseman has saved many an error over the course of the season, and yes Texeria is as good a 1st sacker as I’ve ever seen…..In my opinion as a fan of nearly 50 years and a former player this infield is as good as any ever assembled……The one area that has not been mentioned that I noticed was how Derek seemed average on going back on shallow pop ups…..He is the best I’ve ever seen on going back and flagging pop ups……To my eyes as a former shortstop, he’s still above average….

  136. mick November 12th, 2010 at 5:04 pm

    I am a Yankee fan. I am not a fan of Derek Jeter. The two can actually coexist.
    ====================================
    One off year and you are no longer a fan?

  137. pat November 12th, 2010 at 5:05 pm

    There seems to be a disconnect on what constitutes trashing Jeter.

    Is it trashing to say Jeter is no longer the best SS in the AL?

    If it is, guilty as charged.

    Jeter is a great Yankee. He has done much for the franchise and is still the best alternative to play SS in 2011 but he is not now the best SS in the AL.

    I say that with love, respect and the absence of pinstriped glasses.

  138. West Coast Yankee Fan November 12th, 2010 at 5:06 pm

    Swisher was a better hitter and he hits from both sides. Granderson IMO needs to earn it. One decent month does not a season nor promotion mnake.

    Swisher:

    .288 BA
    .359 OBP
    .870 OPS
    29 Home Runs
    89 RBI’s

    Granderson:

    .247 BA
    .324 OBP
    .792 OBP
    24 Home Runs
    67 RBI’s

  139. Erin November 12th, 2010 at 5:06 pm

    I am a Yankee fan. I am not a fan of Derek Jeter

    *************************
    :?

    Isn’t that kind of like saying I’m a Beatles fan but I’m not a fan of John Lennon?

    All right-I’m off for the evening. Have a good night everyone!

  140. mick November 12th, 2010 at 5:06 pm

    but he is not now the best SS in the AL.
    ==========================
    but he could be again.

  141. mick November 12th, 2010 at 5:07 pm

    Isn’t that kind of like saying I’m a Beatles fan but I’m not a fan of John Lennon?

    All right-I’m off for the evening. Have a good night everyone!
    ==================
    Erin, leaving on a high note!

  142. Pat M. November 12th, 2010 at 5:07 pm

    Erin, but John was the Walrus …..

  143. Doreen November 12th, 2010 at 5:08 pm

    Well, I don’t know about anyone else, but my husband and I will watch a baseball game together, and there will be times that we see the same play unfold and have two different opinions on, for instance, whether or not a player should have gotten to a ball in play.

    Another thing that seems to have some relevancy as far as watching plays go is when you watch on television, you don’t always see the entire play unfold, or the exact trajectory of the ball, or where the fielder was set up, etc., etc., because you see what the producers decide is the best angle for television.

    When you are at a game, you can see a more complete picture (if you’re watching and you are able to follow the track of the ball from the bat, which, sad to say, I am not, which is why I’d never be a good ballplayer!!!)

    Long way to say that fielding metrics have to be the most difficult to standardize, and for that reason alone, I’d not put all my eggs in that basket.

  144. DaSaint007 November 12th, 2010 at 5:09 pm

    Jeter will get a 3 year deal, for 15 million/year or close to it. No way they offer him a 4 year deal, unless he’s pressing for 5, and frankly that would surprise me. 4th year option? Maybe, with a team-friendly 5 million buyout. Only the Yankees could/would offer a deal like that.

  145. pat November 12th, 2010 at 5:09 pm

    “but he could be again.”

    I hope so. And he would deserve to win awards when he is. Not this year when he isn’t.

  146. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 5:10 pm

    CB-

    Good comment.

    Problems I am concerned with in the new fielding metrics based on observed data:

    1. The lack of transparency – i.e, exactly how were the metrics constructed?

    2. The high correlation with team Defensive Efficiency Ratios (how many balls in play a team turns into outs) paired with a low residual correlation among the various metrics when DER is not considered (Colin Wyers has been writing on the subject) makes me wonder what exactly is being measured to begin with.

    3. Questions raised by “range bias” – i.e., how does the video observer really know where the ball was hit, except in relation to where the fielder is?

    4. The fact that the new metrics are rooted in only two sources of observed data.

    I still believe the new metrics have something to contribute, although it is frustrating because one can’t say exactly what it is.

    Until we have Fielding F/X, I am excited by the possibilities of mathematically calculating “estimated outs”, based on balls in play, ground ball/fly ball tendencies, pitcher handedness, batter handedness, park factors, base-out status and so forth.

    That sort of mathematical model would be based on actual events rather than observed ones. It still would be subject to the limitations of that sort of model, but it wouldn’t be subject to the subjectivity biases/transparency issues most new metrics are plagued with.

  147. Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    So I take it you were all fans of Pavano when he was a yankee?

    I am a yankee fan, but I don’t really like Jeter. I enjoyed having his bat at SS for 15 years, but I can’t say he is my favorite yankee on the field at any time. In the 90s I was more a Paul Oneil, Bernie, Tino guy. In the 2000s I preferred Posada, Pettitte, Matsui, Sheffield, and then A-rod.

    I don’t like the way Jeter conducts interviews, he gives as many non-answers as possible and then gets snotty with reporters often. I much prefer A-rod’s thoughtful approach, even if some say it is Robotic.

  148. AldotheApache November 12th, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    bruceb November 12th, 2010 at 5:02 pm

    I am a Yankee fan. I am not a fan of Derek Jeter. The two can actually coexist.

    —————————————————

    UZR gives a negative rating to not one Yankee, not two, but THREE … each of whom won the Gold Glove.

    Your credibility is about the same with me.

  149. DaSaint007 November 12th, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    Jeter doesn’t have to be the best SS in the AL. Tex doesn’t have to be the best 1B in the AL.
    Cano doesn’t have to be the best 2B in the AL. None of them HAVE to be the best at their respective positions.

    They just need to be the best team to be able to win any particular WS.

  150. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 5:13 pm

    “Jeter is a great Yankee. He has done much for the franchise and is still the best alternative to play SS in 2011 but he is not now the best SS in the AL.”

    Everyone seems convinced that he did not deserve this Gold Glove… can I ask what shortstop in the AL did?

    None of them had good seasons, Jeter’s was clearly the best of them…

  151. Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 5:14 pm

    UZR gives a negative rating to not one Yankee, not two, but THREE … each of whom won the Gold Glove.

    It also said Gardner was the best outfielder in the league, and that Granderson was very good and Swisher was ok. I’ll take it!

    You have to look at the components of UZR. They’re added together to get UZR and then UZR/150. Cano was rated very highly on DP and Errors. Which are two things he WAS very strong at.

    Also UZR isn’t the only metric out there.

  152. Pat M. November 12th, 2010 at 5:14 pm

    So Face, your criticism is fueled in part on a personal level ??? I sthat what you’re saying ???If so I respect your candidness…

  153. West Coast Yankee Fan November 12th, 2010 at 5:15 pm

    LMAO!

  154. mick November 12th, 2010 at 5:15 pm

    They just need to be the best team to be able to win any particular WS.
    ==================
    And that is the only vote that counts and the players make it.

  155. RadioKev November 12th, 2010 at 5:16 pm

    JerkfaceNovember 12th, 2010 at 4:56 pmNext year I would bat the following
    Gardner
    Jeter vs LHP / Granderson vs RHP
    Cano
    A-rod
    Tex
    Swisher
    Posada
    Montero
    Granderson vs LHP / Jeter vs RHP

    —————-

    Although last season suggested Jeter was dropping off, I don’t see this type of line up happening. He’ll get his chances to regularly start in the 2 hole, and they’ll drop him down if they need to. I think they’ll have to see him either perform, or not, before they jump to that.

    Also Granderson started to turn it on at the end of last season against Lefties..

    I’d have Montero batting 9th. As Cash has said, he needs to earn it, and he’ll need to earn it in the line up too before he bats before Granderson or Jeter. Still though, it looks like an awfully nice line up.

  156. Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 5:17 pm

    Well I suppose, Pat M? I argued for Jeter to win the MVP in 06, and I always enjoyed having his bat in the lineup because it gave the yankees such a killer advantage from a position of weakness.

    But my personal opinions of Jeter mean I am not going to sugar coat or try to look past his downfalls because he is ‘jeter’.

    I always thought that was silly, as the Yankees are bigger than any of their players, but some want to make Jeter bigger than the team.

  157. Betsy November 12th, 2010 at 5:17 pm

    Who’s saying Jeter is the best SS? He’s 36 – I wouldn’t expect him to be. There’s a rather large gap between saying he’s the best and trashing him. I honestly wish Jeter would have retired already as if this is what we have to look forward to with every HOFer/near HOFer or very good player, no thanks. I’d rather they all retire 5 years to soon if it means we can avoid all this. The folks who are positive about Jeter are not saying he’s the best anymore; we are just not ready to put him out to pasture. On the other hand, those who are negative about him would rather see him put to sleep as it were.

  158. West Coast Yankee Fan November 12th, 2010 at 5:18 pm

    Goo goo g’ joob!

  159. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 5:18 pm

    Pat,

    So don’t you think Tex saves Derek a bunch of errors?

  160. Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 5:19 pm

    Jeter are not saying he’s the best anymore; we are just not ready to put him out to pasture. On the other hand, those who are negative about him would rather see him put to sleep as it were.

    No one here is suggesting he be put to pasture. Where is this coming from??? Everyone ‘against’ Jeter wants his contract to be short to not affect the team. Not off the team entirely.

  161. Doreen November 12th, 2010 at 5:19 pm

    Look, it’s undeniable that the times per game you might here “pastadivingJeter” has increased – or at least I certainly notice it more.

    But his is a solid shortstop and the Yankees infield works well together and I’m satisfied.

    To me, what constitutes the trashing is overkill, not criticism in and of itself but the sheer volume of it. And of course, as I always get back to, the tone of it is really negative (though I know it’s difficult to criticize with a smile). I think in order to prove their point, people seem like they’re on either end of a spectrum, when more likely, we’re all scattered about the middle.

  162. pat November 12th, 2010 at 5:19 pm

    “can I ask what shortstop in the AL did?”

    I would have voted for Andrus.

  163. AldotheApache November 12th, 2010 at 5:19 pm

    Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 5:11 pm
    I much prefer A-rod’s thoughtful approach, even if some say it is Robotic.

    ————————————————————————

    I’m on ARod’s side, but if you think his quotes are ‘thoughtful,’ then you should listen closer.

    Alex has never been accused of being the sharpest knife in the drawer, he has a very limited vocabulary, and is one of the most contrived interviews on the team.

    His inability to properly express himself has gotten him into plenty of trouble in the past. But he’s gotten a lot better these past 2 years (by saying less).

  164. Betsy November 12th, 2010 at 5:20 pm

    Because Pavano and Jeter are the same……….ok.

    Mo is my favorite Yankee – not Jeter. At one point, Tino was my favorite Yankee. Was Jeter my favorite? Probably not, but I loved him just the same. It’s all subjective – I don’t give a hoot about his lack of answers in interviews. I never noticed any snarkiness – I just don’t care what he tells the media. I don’t know how someone is a Yankee fan and doesn’t like (even if he’s not their favorite) Jeter, but so be it………..it’s not my place to judge.

  165. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 5:20 pm

    Not a single one of you has suggested who SHOULD HAVE won the gold glove for SS? You can scream Jeter shouldn’t have won it until you are blue in the face, but if some other SS actually had a good season, maybe he would have won it.

  166. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 5:20 pm

    Betsy,

    Didn’t you say Posada (an arguable HOF) was near done yesterday?

  167. blake November 12th, 2010 at 5:21 pm

    CB,

    If you’re still around, curious to hear you’re take on the lineup next year. Do you think they should swap Cano and Teixera. Personally I do because I think Cano is their best hitter and better profiles to hit in the 3 hole…I think Tex would be great hitting 5th where he would have an opportunity to.drive in lots of runs.

  168. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 5:21 pm

    I think it is possible to be a Yankee fan and not have Jeter as your Personal Favorite Yankee.

    My Personal Favorite Yankee was Paul O’Neill until he retired, and it was Andy Pettitte after he came back.

  169. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 5:21 pm

    ID,

    You are a few days too late.

    Arguments have been made for Ramirez, Pennington, and Andrus.

  170. Betsy November 12th, 2010 at 5:21 pm

    Jerkface, you’ll forgive me if I disagree. The comments about Jeter have reached a borderline nastiness…………….IF they haven’t crossed over.

  171. Betsy November 12th, 2010 at 5:22 pm

    So what’s your point, LGY?

  172. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 5:22 pm

    pat – you would choose a guy for the gold glove award with more than double the errors that jeter had? interesting. not smart either.

  173. West Coast Yankee Fan November 12th, 2010 at 5:22 pm

    Do you think Jeter will choose lethal injection? Hanging? Or a firing squad?

  174. Betsy November 12th, 2010 at 5:23 pm

    Wave, of course…………..I just don’t get actually not liking Jeter period.

  175. blake November 12th, 2010 at 5:23 pm

    I think a 3 year deal for Jeter would be good for both sides and think that’s what it’ll be….

  176. mick November 12th, 2010 at 5:23 pm

    So now we are rating our players speech patterns .
    Enough already people.

    Maybe they should come out with the BSA’s.
    Best Speaker Awards.

  177. Doreen November 12th, 2010 at 5:23 pm

    Question:

    If you know you have a first baseman who can field everything, would it make you less concerned with having to be pinpoint accurate with your throw and allow you to put more “mustard” on it?

  178. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 5:24 pm

    “So what’s your point, LGY?”

    ————————————————

    You are criticizing people for taking similar stances in regard to Jeter that you have with Posada.

  179. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 5:24 pm

    LGY – seriously? poor debates maybe.

    Gonzalez – 19 errors
    Andrus – 16 errors
    Ramirez, – 20 errors
    Pennington – 25 ERRORS…

    How could any of those guys seriously be on the gold glove list?

    Jeter – 6 errors.

  180. Betsy November 12th, 2010 at 5:24 pm

    WC, neither – it will be a self-inflicted wound because he will determine when he goes out……..If he has a contract and he thinks he’s done, then I think he will leave. As long as he thinks he’s capable of playing up to his standards, he’ll hang around – and that’s his right and I agree. I think when he reaches the point where he doesn’t think he can do it anymore, he’ll walk.

  181. Warning Track Power November 12th, 2010 at 5:25 pm

    I injured my hamstring this summer. Took me 3 weeks to get back on the field. During the 2nd game of the day, I tweaked the hamstring again. I was out for another 3 weeks. Clearly I returned much to soon.
    The back of my leg bruised up/turned yellow and blue.
    Now I don’t have the advantages of a MLB training staff and the latest medical equipment for zero cost, so I’m sure the average person will take longer to heal.

  182. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 5:25 pm

    not to mention that gonzalez doesnt even qualify as an AL SS… :(

  183. ZMAN November 12th, 2010 at 5:25 pm

    “Swisher was a better hitter and he hits from both sides. Granderson IMO needs to earn it. One decent month does not a season nor promotion mnake.”

    Agree.

  184. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 5:25 pm

    ID,

    I am not sure if you are being serious???

  185. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 5:26 pm

    “interesting. not smart either”

    I’d hold back on the smart comments, because if you haven’t been around the last few days my guess is you are way behind on all the arguments as well.

  186. West Coast Yankee Fan November 12th, 2010 at 5:26 pm

    Just adding a little levity – seems to be approaching the boiling point here.

  187. Betsy November 12th, 2010 at 5:26 pm

    LGY, I’m sorry, but that is just wrong. I think Po is about done, but I have not gotten personal or nasty with him. I have repeatedly said today I want him catching Phil – and I also said I want him catching more, period. I defended him last year in terms of the stupid catching controversies that have cropped up. No, it’s not even remotely the same thing.

  188. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 5:26 pm

    No one even mentioned Alex Gonzalez…

  189. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 5:27 pm

    The only other choice for AL SS Gold Glove was Izturis, and no one would even mention his name in conversation. Kinda funny.

  190. mick November 12th, 2010 at 5:27 pm

    Gonzalez – 19 errors
    Andrus – 16 errors
    Ramirez, – 20 errors
    Pennington – 25 ERRORS…

    How could any of those guys seriously be on the gold glove list?
    =======================
    Dont you know? They have more range so they get to more balls to make errors on.
    Jeter just doesn;t try, he’s smarter.

  191. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 5:27 pm

    Betsy,

    Who has gotten personal or nasty with Jeter except for a few drive by trolls?

  192. ZMAN November 12th, 2010 at 5:27 pm

    Using errors to judge SS is like using RBIs to judge hitters.

  193. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 5:28 pm

    WYH – its not my responsibility to be here for 24 hours a day to keep up on the consensus bickering. i’m just trying to figure out why there is still a debate going on about jeters gold glove if there is no viable alternative.

  194. mick November 12th, 2010 at 5:28 pm

    Shouldn’t Visquel win the GG every year?
    Even if he doesn’t play?
    Didn’t Palmiero?

  195. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 5:29 pm

    zman – actually it would be like using strikeouts to judge hitters. which is… exactly what people do.

  196. Betsy November 12th, 2010 at 5:29 pm

    LGY, let’s just say I think many of the comments about Jeter are over the top and nasty.

  197. I Like Inge November 12th, 2010 at 5:29 pm

    Whats wrong with RBI as a stat? Bombs and RBIs are cool stats. Please don’t make the irrelevant :)

  198. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 5:30 pm

    mick – jeter is one crafty fella. and here i thought you didnt get errors for plays you shouldn’t get to (ie. the entire OOZ factor in UZR)… learn something new every day i guess… /sarcasm.

  199. Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 5:31 pm

    Alex has never been accused of being the sharpest knife in the drawer

    Regardless of what you think, his baseball acumen is ridiculous. I’ve heard Jeter is dumb as rocks outside of a baseball context as well. The point being, if you ask A-rod about a pitch or about a teammates at bat, he has amazing recall and will tell you the exact type of pitch he/cano/whomever hit.

    I like that.

  200. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 5:31 pm

    ID,

    Are you saying that the GG should be determined by errors?

  201. Red Lobster November 12th, 2010 at 5:31 pm

    Jeter would rather allow a single, then try for a ball to his left and turn it into a 2-base error.

  202. mick November 12th, 2010 at 5:32 pm

    I always thought the Home Run crown should be awarded to the one who hit the most HR’s.
    Discuss.

  203. RhapsodyInBlue November 12th, 2010 at 5:33 pm

    Interesting.

    Cashman: Posada Virtually Done as Catcher

    http://www.yankeesmtom.com/201.....ne-as.html

  204. mick November 12th, 2010 at 5:33 pm

    Jeter would rather allow a single, then try for a ball to his left and turn it into a 2-base error.
    ===================
    Exactly.
    That is why he is the sharpest tool in the knife drawer.

  205. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 5:33 pm

    ID

    No one said you had a responsibility to be here, but you pop into the end of a three day long discussion and make snide comments about stuff that has been discussed at length, which makes you look, well, not as good as I’m sure you deserve to look.

  206. Pat M. November 12th, 2010 at 5:33 pm

    LGY….Texeria saved the Yankee infield of at least 25 throwing miscues this season if not more….In regards to Jeter, the one thing that became evident to me was how short his crossover first step was when going to his right…..His reactions to me were normal, it was the shortness of the key step….I still maintain that he played 2/3rds of the season with an injury to that leg…Witness his at bats, it seemed to me that he couldn’t flex that front leg as he normally does resulting in so many times he was on top of the ball…….Just an opinion….I’ll be seeing a few of my baseball pals in the next few weeks as soon as they complete their scouting reports on the list that was given to them on certain ballplayers for the winter meetings…….

  207. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 5:33 pm

    LGY – or a combination of… all of those stats… rather than ignoring half of them.

    what i am saying is that 15+ errors and a sub .950 FP. should eliminate you from contention of being the best fielder at your position before range is even considered.

  208. AldotheApache November 12th, 2010 at 5:34 pm

    Jerkface November 12th, 2010 at 5:31 pm
    if you ask A-rod about a pitch or about a teammates at bat, he has amazing recall and will tell you the exact type of pitch he/cano/whomever hit.

    I like that.

    ——————————–

    That is true, I’ve seen that myself.

    Good point.

  209. DocTodd November 12th, 2010 at 5:35 pm

    LMAO…Francessa said Niners can give the ball to Al Gore..

  210. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 5:35 pm

    “what i am saying is that 15+ errors and a sub .950 FP. should eliminate you from contention of being the best fielder at your position before range is even considered.”

    ———————————–

    What? Why?

  211. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 5:35 pm

    pat m – a leg/knee/hip injury for jeter would certainly explain a lot that went on this season.

  212. DaSaint007 November 12th, 2010 at 5:36 pm

    Has anyone noticed how bad the 2012 Free Agent class will be? Particularly @ SS?
    Courtesy MLBTR.com:

    Jason Bartlett (32)
    Yuniesky Betancourt (30) – $6MM club option with a $2MM buyout
    Ronny Cedeno (29)
    Rafael Furcal (34) – $12MM club/vesting option
    Alex Gonzalez (34)
    J.J. Hardy (29)
    Omar Infante (30)
    John McDonald (37)
    Augie Ojeda (37)
    Jose Reyes (29)
    Jimmy Rollins (33)
    Ramon Santiago (32)
    Marco Scutaro (36) – $6MM club option/$3MM player option with a $1.5MM buyout
    Jack Wilson (34)

    Not a lot of ‘young’ talent. Jeter’s going to get locked up for 3 years.

  213. mick November 12th, 2010 at 5:37 pm

    LMAO…Francessa said Niners can give the ball to Al Gore..
    ===========================
    He does that all the time.
    August Romaine.

  214. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 5:37 pm

    Jeter had 15 errors in two of the seasons he has won the GG.

  215. Doreen November 12th, 2010 at 5:38 pm

    Cashman did not make that statement. That was the title of a blog entry.

    But I would imagine that telling Posada he will be the team’s main DH next season is a way to tell him that his catching days are dwindling.

  216. Yanks78 November 12th, 2010 at 5:38 pm

    I’d be fine with Reyes, Rollins, Hardy, Frucal, Barlett, or Gonzalez replacing Jeter, from that list.

    His OPS was a mere 15 points higher than Francisco Cervelli’s. (.695 to .710)

  217. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 5:39 pm

    ID-

    OK, Pennington and Ramirez had 15-20 more errors than Jeter. Now how do you explain the other 130 balls they got to that Jeter didn’t?

  218. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 5:40 pm

    WYH – yes i can, its called the BIZ column that you are ignoring that says they had 100 more balls hit AT them than jeter did.

  219. DaSaint007 November 12th, 2010 at 5:41 pm

    You can see the list as it stands today, again courtesy MLBTR.com

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....gents.html

  220. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 5:42 pm

    :WYH – yes i can, its called the BIZ column that you are ignoring that says they had 100 more balls hit AT them than jeter did.

    I don’t see that column – link?

  221. upstate kate November 12th, 2010 at 5:43 pm

    Mick
    for determining the HR champ:
    did he hit in a HR friendly park?
    what was the % of HR per PA?
    were they bombs, or did they barely make it over the wall?
    how many were wind aided?
    how many were off scrub pitchers?
    who was the protection behind him?
    I don’t think it is as simple as the guy who hit the most HR anymore

  222. pat November 12th, 2010 at 5:44 pm

    “pat ? you would choose a guy for the gold glove award with more than double the errors that jeter had? interesting. not smart either.”

    My dad will be upset that his 12 years of coaching my teams, the 1000s of hours spent pitching and hiting to me and the thousands of dollars he spent on schools to educate me were wasted. :wink:

  223. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 5:44 pm

    lgy – and during those seasons where he had 15 errors and won, jeter had the least errors among qualified shortstops… was there a point there or did you just not check it?

  224. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 5:45 pm

    WYH – fangraphs has it on the leaders and player pages, BIZ = balls in zone.

    by your logic (and what i left myself open to) they should have higher FP’s than jeter because they had more plays, but their massive amount of errors outweighs that.

  225. DaSaint007 November 12th, 2010 at 5:47 pm

    Yanks78 November 12th, 2010 at 5:38 pm
    I’d be fine with Reyes, Rollins, Hardy, Frucal, Barlett, or Gonzalez replacing Jeter, from that list.

    His OPS was a mere 15 points higher than Francisco Cervelli’s. (.695 to .710)
    ——————————
    You want Glass Man Reyes? The man with no hustle?
    Rollins isn’t leaving Philly.
    Furcal isn’t exactly cheap. Bartlett will be 33 next season. Gonzalez will be 35. Why bother?

    Only Hardy would be in his prime, and he’s a lifetime .263 hitter, and would be making over $6 million/year by next season.

    Again, the grass isn’t really greener on the other side when defense, offense, age and salary are taken into consideration. And I’ll leave out leadership and on-filed intelligence as they are intangibles.

  226. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 5:47 pm

    “lgy – and during those seasons where he had 15 errors and won, jeter had the least errors among qualified shortstops… was there a point there or did you just not check it?”

    ————————————–

    I checked it.

    By your “rule” they should have canceled the award that year because (GASP) every SS had 15+ errors.

  227. AldotheApache November 12th, 2010 at 5:48 pm

    Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 5:39 pm
    ID-

    OK, Pennington and Ramirez had 15-20 more errors than Jeter. Now how do you explain the other 130 balls they got to that Jeter didn’t?

    —————————————

    No explanation necessary.

    You might believe that those 15-20 estra errors are worth the 130 extra GB, and if so, that’s OK.

    I don’t.

    It’s SUBJECTIVE.

  228. Pat M. November 12th, 2010 at 5:48 pm

    Yanks78…..Nobody here is discounting the fact that Derek had a bad season offensively, yet he did account for 180 runs……Once again I say his dropoff on both sides of the ball were due to being injured…….If that trend continues in 2011 then we will seeing the end of the Jeter era……All I know is that I make it a point to have my son see as many Yankee games so he can tell his Grandchildren that he saw Derek Jeter play……Relish these final days because the greatest shortstop to ever play has only a few campaigns left……Yanks are still a better club with #2 @ the 6 position

  229. Red Lobster November 12th, 2010 at 5:48 pm

    The job description of a defensive player is to make the plays that can be made and not screw them up.

    The job description is not to make plays that are not supposed to be made (like the SS who get to more balls because of their range, that should not count as apart of their defensive prowess). That is like extra credit. However, when you judge the errors that those other SS made, that negates the “extra credit”. The 15-25 errors they made is more egregious than the 130 “extra” plays they made. Chances are, those errors were 2 base errors and scored more often than not.

    I look at Jeter in football terms as a cornerback who doesn’t allow receivers to catch balls. He may not have the high interceptions, defensive touchdowns, passes deflected, etc. that others have, but he also does not allow as many big plays as the others do. He does what he is supposed to do, doesn’t to the extra, but does what his job description says to do (not make errors) and does that better than others.

  230. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 5:48 pm

    ID,

    Lets get this straight.

    Are you making the argument that Derek Jeter was the BEST defensive SS in the AL this year?

  231. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 5:50 pm

    LGY – actually by my “rule” his FP would qualify him for the award. i dont understand why you are trying todig out this hole… but i’ve gotten the answer i was looking for.

    why did jeter win the gold glove this year (and probably most of the years he has won it)? because no one else deserved it.

  232. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 5:51 pm

    LGY – no, izturis was. i wanted someone to make THAT argument.

  233. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 5:53 pm

    “LGY – actually by my “rule” his FP would qualify him for the award. i dont understand why you are trying todig out this hole… but i’ve gotten the answer i was looking for.”

    —————————————–

    Andrus, Pennington, and Ramirez all had Fielding% above .950???

  234. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 5:53 pm

    actually izturis is an interesting case… his UZR is much much higher than jeters, but it didn’t enable him to make any more plays than jeter did… curious.

  235. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 5:54 pm

    lgy – right, and then they get crossed off the list because someone else (actually, 2 someone elses) had half the errors they did…

  236. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 5:54 pm

    “LGY – no, izturis was. i wanted someone to make THAT argument.”

    ———————————

    So, you are saying with certainty that Izturis was the best? Other than Izturis it is stupid?

    Then to be clear on Jeter, are you saying Jeter was the 2nd best behind Izturis?

  237. blake November 12th, 2010 at 5:55 pm

    Pat M,

    Great post.

  238. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 5:55 pm

    and a majority of their errors are fielding so they can’t be blamed on not playing with teixeira.

  239. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 5:56 pm

    “actually izturis is an interesting case… his UZR is much much higher than jeters, but it didn’t enable him to make any more plays than jeter did… curious.”

    ———————————–

    Izturis had 17 more assists than Jeter, yet played 53 less innings at SS.

  240. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 5:58 pm

    ID-

    If you want to use the fangraphs data, don’t be so disingenuous as to pick and choose.

    Pennington and Ramirez had a substantially higher RZR and OOZ. They made more plays – you don’t have any idea if the extra errors offset that – fangraphs doesn’t think so based on DRS and UZR calculations.

    Also, you are ignoring the whole question of range bias built into BIZ.

  241. DaSaint007 November 12th, 2010 at 5:58 pm

    This whole argument about Jeter is so subjective. Regardless of opinions, and unless that meteor that was discussed earlier hits, DJ will be the starting SS next season, and probably 2012 and 2013, or until the day after his next WS championship, whichever comes first.

    What isn’t known is how Cashman intends to build that bridge to Mo and how he intends to solidify the starting rotation.

  242. Pat M. November 12th, 2010 at 6:00 pm

    I watch Iztruris play at least 50-60 games a season, and he has become a top tier shortstop…However he died at the plate this season……By the way his play in the 2009 ALCS just killed the Angels…..I’ll stick will Jeter….

  243. Melk Man November 12th, 2010 at 6:01 pm

    DKnobler
    Marlins trade Andrew Miller to Red Sox for Dustin Richardson

  244. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 6:01 pm

    Pat M-

    We aren’t arguing who was the better all-around SS, are we?

  245. Pat M. November 12th, 2010 at 6:02 pm

    Time for my golf lesson, later……

  246. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 6:03 pm

    LGY – i’m not sure what assists actually show… izturis is better at having ground balls hit harder at him? or he’s better at having slower players hit balls at him? Assists is more akin to RBI’s, dependent on too many other things to actually measure the task at hand.

    i’m not going to (or… you won’t get me to) say with any certainty which of the 2 players should have won, they both deserved it.

    none of those other players mentioned do though, i don’t care if their uzr was 100, if they make 2-3 times as many errors as someone they were not the best fielder.

  247. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 6:03 pm

    Pat M-

    You need lessons? :)

  248. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    “Assists is more akin to RBI’s, dependent on too many other things to actually measure the task at hand.”

    Wrong analogy. Assists are actually things, something BIZ is not, although it seems to be.

  249. murphydog November 12th, 2010 at 6:07 pm

    I think that there are 9 players on the field at a time and that they live and die together over a season and over the years. Isolating one player and analyzing theoretical components of performance with flawed, non-comprehensive metrics that lack universal acceptance in the game is a dubious exercise. Jeter has never demanded to be known as the best technical shortstop in the game. All the effort trying to prove he’s not is thus kind of irrelevant, IMO. His salary is about what he’s worth to the Yankees, not what he’s worth to Baseball Metric Scientists.

    So instead of more excruciating reviews of Jeter’s performance as if he were the only one on the field for nine innings, let’s talk about the team’s record as a team during a given period.

    World Championships are won (and lost) by teams. Ultimately that’s the only performance metric the Yankees, especially Jeter, care about.

  250. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 6:07 pm

    btw

    In 2005, when Jeter won the GG with 15 errors, Orlando Cabrera only had 7 errors.

    In 2006, when Jeter won the GG and had 15 errors again, Alex Gonzalez had 7, Michael Young had 14, and Juan Uribe had 14.

  251. DaSaint007 November 12th, 2010 at 6:07 pm

    I think that Cashman could sign De La Rosa as insurance for the following reasons:

    1) in case Andy retires, De La Rosa’s agent can raise his asking price, particularly since Lee would be considered the only viable – though expensive alternative.

    2) As a fallback option if Lee either stays in Texas or goes elsewhere.

    3) Because you can never have too much pitching, particularly left-handed and in their prime.

    4) Because if you sign him to an affordable contract, and you determine that you don’t need him, you can always trade him to someone who does.

    5) It keeps the bidding low on Lee as the Yankees would appear out of the running, keeping his asking price low.

    Again, it could be the Swisher effect.

  252. Wave Your Hat November 12th, 2010 at 6:10 pm

    Have to leave. Bye all.

  253. OldYanksFan November 12th, 2010 at 6:10 pm

    On of the reasons many here bash URZ is because they don’t know what it is. Some assume it’s an overall evaluation of a players defense, which it is not. As a matter of fact, it is fairly limited, in as far as infielders are concerned, as it only measure how many GROUND BALLS in a fielder ‘zone’ are converted to outs.

    “The entire field is broken down into 78 zones.
    These are the same zones you can find in the hit location diagram in the documentation section of the retrosheet website (www.retrosheet.org).
    Of these, UZR uses 64 of them.
    For infielders, only ground balls, including bunts, are looked at.
    Pop files caught or landing on an infield zone are excluded, as are line drives caught by an infielder or hit through the infield.
    None of the foul zones are used in UZR except for 3F and 3L, which are near the first and third base bags (for fair ground balls fielded in foul territory behind the bags).”

    http://www.baseballthinkfactor.....3-03-14_0/

    So, URZ has traditional ranked Jeter poorly. And even Teix says “Derek may not have as much range…”, and any of us that watch a lot of games can see this.

    URZ does NOT know how good Jeter is at pop-ups in the OF.
    URZ does NOT know how good Jeter is as a cut-off man.
    URZ does NOT know how good Jeter is at turning the DP.
    URZ does NOT know if Jeter catches balls diving into the stands in foul territory.
    URZ does NOT know about ‘The Flip’.

    URZ does NOT know about anything really, other then GBs.
    URZ does not say that Jeter is a poor shortshop.
    URZ DOES say that Jeter has very limited range compared to other MLB shortstops.
    (although URZ says Jeter had a very good year in 2009… the year after Cashman spoke to Jeter, and Jeter changed his workout routine, and specifically worked on his ‘first step’ and ‘lateral movement’.)

  254. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 6:12 pm

    WYH – there is no range bias in BIZ, the zones are defined by the field not the player.

    RZR doesn’t qualify non-outs or errors differently, hell it doesn’t even actually use “zones”. Revised Zone Rating is only a measure of fielding range. There are other things to consider when judging fielders, such as the ability to turn the double play, handle bunts, throw out runners, back up plays, etc.

    OOZ plays are just that, balls that the player made outs on outside of the zone lines defined for his position… which is tied to the way they are drawn on the field and not the defensive players alignment or knowledge of the pitch selection. It measures, again, range on outs and nothing more.

    OOZ Throwing errors is a stat i would like to see.

  255. LGY November 12th, 2010 at 6:17 pm

    “none of those other players mentioned do though, i don’t care if their uzr was 100, if they make 2-3 times as many errors as someone they were not the best fielder.”

    ——————————

    Which is an opinion of yours (and one that you have not actually explained at all except for make up some silly rule, which is actually pretty funny because you are insulting other people) and doesn’t make someone else dumb or stupid for thinking otherwise.

    Anyway it is not worth discussing this with you anymore because instead of having a conversation on the merits you have decided to sling personal insults around.

  256. BIG AL November 12th, 2010 at 6:18 pm

    I have a hard time understanding how a Yankees fan could not be happy with any off their players receiving an award, such as a GG.

    I find it to be borderline crazy, for this blog to day in and day out use Jeter as a whipping boy, forgetting what he has, and still does mean to this team.

    Perhaps some folks here have a lack of thoughts concerning baseball during the off season, so they beat the same subject to death each and every day.

    I have no trouble voicing my displeasure with a player, if they are not doing well, lack effort or generally failing at their job, but that’s rare with members of this team.

    We can all agree Jeter is getting older, and may not be the same player he was 5 years ago, but, let’s also give him credit for still being one of the best in the game, and be proud a player such as Jeter is a New York Yankee.

    That’s all I have on this subject.

  257. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 6:19 pm

    LGY – alex gonzalez played 110 games that year so having less errors is not a surprise.
    uribe played 140. i wouldnt consider that significant time missed, but players that do miss time during the season hardly ever get the award.

    and for whatever we decide that assists is worth, jeter had 100 more than cabrera that year heh…

  258. Irreverent Discourse November 12th, 2010 at 6:23 pm

    LGY – no one is “slinging insults”.

    if that your way of running away from the conversation, so be it. you did nothing but look for pinholes in my statements, bring something to the table next time.

  259. OldYanksFan November 12th, 2010 at 6:39 pm

    Red Lobster…
    “However, when you judge the errors that those other SS made, that negates the “extra credit”. The 15-25 errors they made is more egregious than the 130 “extra” plays they made. Chances are, those errors were 2 base errors and scored more often than not.”

    This is just batsh*t insanity. Really. As wacky a statement as I have ever heard.

    In simply terms, the most important thing an offensive player can do is NOT make an out.
    This is why OBP is more telling of a players value then BA.
    The most important thing an defensive player can do convert a batted ball to an out.
    We like strikeout pitchers, because they can an out without depending on their fielders (who sometimes make errors) to convert the out for them.

    If a player makes 25 errors, in essense, it has the same value as allowing 25 hits… or non outs.
    If a rangy infielder gets to 130 balls that the average fielder doesn’t, and converts 100 of those plays to an out, in essense, it has the same value as taking away 100 hits… or converting 100 outs.

    So the fielder who makes ZERO errors and makes ZERO rangy plays, has a relative +/- outs converted of ZERO
    The rangy fielder who gets to 130 ‘extra’ grounders, makes 25 errors but converts 100 outs, has a ‘extra out converted of -25 plus 100 of 75. However, the the average fielder gets to none of those 130 balls, the 25 ‘errors’ would have been non-outs, so the +/- of outs converted in really 100.

    Again, this is why looking at range and outs converted is far more accurate at assessing a fielder’s value. Errors… or Fielding Percentage is extremely limited.

    Over the course of a year, Gritty Brett Gardner might get to 100 fly balls that Vlad can’t get to. Maybe of those 100, 60 are caught, 20 are off his glove as hits, and 20 are off his glove as errors. So even though Gardner might have made 20 more errors then Vlad, he turned 60 ‘Vlad-hits’ into outs. So obviously, errors and all, Gardner would be a far more valuable OFer.

  260. SmellHall November 12th, 2010 at 7:04 pm

    Tex complained about UZR around this time last year too…while surely the stat must have some flaws, he also surely hates a stat that makes him look less great than most people thinks he is…clearly he thinks he is awesome at first…I think a lot of these defensive stats fail the “eye test” – no matter how easily a sabre guy will refute it…

  261. Yeah November 12th, 2010 at 10:35 pm

    Bet Tex had no problem with UZR in ’03, ’04, and ’08, when his were +11.5, +10.4, and +15.3, respectively.

  262. lil m November 12th, 2010 at 11:00 pm

    “I’ve heard Jeter is dumb as rocks outside of a baseball context as well. ”

    Jerkface, you really do hate him.

  263. 4 NYY November 12th, 2010 at 11:22 pm

    This is worse than when so many knocked the Yanks as losers during the season.

    How can you call yourselves fans of Yankees and just run down player after player if they don’t come through every time ?

    Then you “fans” argue over how much $$$ they should get.

    This has become a kiddy playroom for some.

    Can’t wait till Yanks makes some moves and have the “experts” on here start crying.

    “Some” need to grow up !!!

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