The beginning of the beginning
Posted by: Sam Borden - Posted in Misc on Nov 14, 2010 
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The GM meetings, for all intents and purposes, begin tomorrow night in Orlando. (I think technically the actual meetings start on Tuesday but most people are getting into town tomorrow.) Chad will be on the scene for us and doing his best to unearth all the news, rumors and Hot Stove speculation.
So what can you expect?
• Some actual meetings: This year baseball has smushed the GM meetings and the owners’ meetings back-to-back, so there will be a lot of talk from everyone about the impending collective bargaining negotiation that is looming after the 2011 season. There is always some discussion about rules changes; you can bet instant replay will come up (again) for discussion.
• Plenty of hot air: Obviously there’s plenty of conversation amongst the various GMs outside of the formal sessions, and that’s where the Hot Stove gossip emerges. Informal meetings, sit-downs between agents and teams and even casual conversations between executives can start a firestorm of Tweets, blog posts and reports on potential deals. Much of it doesn’t amount to much but that doesn’t mean it isn’t fun to follow.
• Legitimate groundwork: There is, on occasion, a genuine transaction or two that’s completed at the GM meetings (a minor trade or a free agent signing with his former team, typically) but despite the high percentage of undeveloped activity that doesn’t mean real foundations aren’t laid. A most recent example came last year: The Yankees and Tigers got together at the GM meetings and had preliminary talks that led to the Curtis Granderson trade just a few weeks later at the Winter Meetings.
Along those lines, I wouldn’t expect a whole lot of action from the Yankees this week. At the very least, Cliff Lee’s agent, Darek Braunecker, will be at the meetings so you can bet Brian Cashman will be looking for a second sit-down with him.
Should I attend the meetings?
This offseason has been painfully slow so far…..
Should I attend the meetings?
Sure maybe Jeter will hire you as a personel lobbyist
Granderson was a nice surprise what will it be this year?
This is nothing I would bet a dollar on, but I I have some friends in the Dallas-FW Metroplex business community who tell me the buzz is very positive concerning the Rangers landing Cliff Lee.
The consensus is that he would choose Texas if the money was close to being the same and that the combination of the cable contract and the belief that Lee will mean substantial long-term ancillary income would motivate the Rangers to bid to win.
I hope this is not true.
TR10 November 14th, 2010 at 4:43 pm
AldotheApache November 14th, 2010 at 4:16 pm
Does anyone know a website where I can catch the Giants-Cowboys? I’m being held captive at a mall, being used as a manservant to tote trinkets around!
————
Aldo, try this, though you may have to download some plug-ins and expect a delay;
http://atdhe.net/
Go Giants!
WCYF
“The money being close” is the key concept here.
No way the Yankees are losing a bidding war. Not happening.
The Rangers just emerged from bakruptcy and even with the cable deal, they have a lot a milestone payments to make to their new partners in the next 3 years. For a team with not a lot of leeway financially, I’m just not sure they will push the envelope. If they do, Yankees will follow.
Do the Rangers really want to make a 6 year, $130-140 committment? Basically give 20-30% of their payroll to one player?
Not sure they have the onions for that one.
Hopefully a decision can be made to expand replays with bad calls on the bases. It’s been proven that it takes less time for umpires to review calls in the umpire’s room than it does to argue on the field with players and managers.
Selig is always so concerned about speeding up the games, well ……………………………… !
PittsburghYankeeFan November 14th, 2010 at 5:00 pm
WCYF
“The money being close” is the key concept here.
No way the Yankees are losing a bidding war. Not happening.
The Rangers just emerged from bakruptcy and even with the cable deal, they have a lot a milestone payments to make to their new partners in the next 3 years. For a team with not a lot of leeway financially, I’m just not sure they will push the envelope. If they do, Yankees will follow.
Do the Rangers really want to make a 6 year, $130-140 committment? Basically give 20-30% of their payroll to one player?
Not sure they have the onions for that one.
*****************************
Yours is the general consensus in baseball and I hope it’s the right one.
I lived there and as superfluous as it may sound, I wouldn’t estimate the heat as a factor in the Yankees favor. From June – August, temperatures average 90 degrees or above on 85 out of 92 days and temperatures exceed 100°F on an average of 16 days per year.
sic – underestimate
I won’t believe anything about the Lee deal until after it’s done. There are just too many rumors that can’t be substantiated. One rumor said that Lee didn’t like pitching in the Texas heat (which I believe). One said that he wants to pitch with CC (this could be true as well). Now, we hear he’ll choose Texas if the $$$ is close. Do we really think that the Yankees are going to let Texas outbid them? Unless Texas is offering more years than we are, I just don’t see it happening.
One thing is for sure – we will know more about Hal Steinbrenner’s perspective on running the club when Lee, Jeter and Mo iisues are settled.
On Lee:
If I’m the Yankees, my motto is “Failure is NOT an option.”
To my way of thinking CL is the perfect AP replacement going forward. He has a lot of the same qualities that made Andy such a winner.
I really hope we don’t come up empty on him.
And I feel confident that we won’t.
MTU
November 14th, 2010 at 11:45 am
VY-
I didn’t get the Diane Lane reference ? Maybe I’m a little slow on the uptake. She is certainly a looker though.
===============
Did you see ‘Must Love Dogs’ with Diane Lane ? Yes, quite the looker.
VY-
No. Perhaps I should.
Everyday this drags on leaves the Rangers one day further behind in Lee’s rearview mirror…..
MTU:
About dogs, John Cusack meeting Diane Lane, lighthearted movie, good for a laugh.
DocTodd
November 14th, 2010 at 5:35 pm
Everyday this drags on leaves the Rangers one day further behind in Lee’s rearview mirror…..
=========
I feel the same way. I have this picture in my mind of Chuck Greenberg sitting and counting his nickels in order to make an offer.
If Lee wants to stay in TX, then so be it. I don’t want the Yankees to have to bribe him to come here by blowing by every other team who’s bidding for his services. If what the Yankees offer isn’t good enough, then although I think we need him, I’ll take my chances………….I don’t want anyone on this team who doesn’t want to be here or who only wants to be here for the $$. Let him stay in TX
Cashman is sleeping on the job. Who does he think he is. Two blockbuster trades already and he hasn’t done anything. I’m disgusted. Imagine…hasn’t even released Chamberlain or sent him to the minors yet.
I don’t want the Yankees to offer Lee 1 $$ more than they think he’s worth; at some point, just walk away.
GB-
How are you today ?
Just so you know. I still haven’t received the info. we spoke about. please keep trying.
Hey, MTU. I haven’t done much in emails this week. Just got home last night and have been sleeping off and on. My apologies about the delay. I’ll fire one off tomorrow if that’s alright with you. had a few things on my mind and things tend to get a little delayed with me.
vineyard Yankee…maybe Greenberg is scouring the empty lots of Texas, picking up aluminum cans to redeem for 5 cents a piece..
Thankfully, the Steinbrenners and Cashman will offer these players exactly what they feel they are worth to the team and what makes sense…no matter what the fans and media believe.
GB-
It was just FYI. There’s no hurry at all.
With all the hemoglobin they’ve taken out of your body in recent days it’s no wonder you’re tired.
Just take it easy and rest up.
If Lee passes on the Yanks offer,destined to be the highest,and also passes up the chance to play for baseball’s most famous team,in a jam packed stadium almost everyday,so be it…
Doc:
You have that picture too ? Hamilton, Wilson, Vlad or a new DH, lots of added payroll coming for the Rangers. Chuck is frantically rolling those nickels and tallying them up. Do I have enough he says and what about my ticket to Arkansas ? Oh, I’ll just drive to save a couple more nickels. LOL !
GB7 -
We both know the Yankees can’t afford Lee, what with the new budget and all. Best we can hope for is Lee to wants to play in NY so bad, he takes Andy’s contract, plus a few incentives.
Giants are sleepwalking today.
They are getting their hat handed to them.
What a shame.
MTU -
How long was that hike, and why no picture of you on the peak?
MTU -
The Giants would have to be alive to sleep walk. They thought all they had to do was show up to win. Best get with it before it’s too late.
Al-
11 miles. If I would have known it meant so much to you I would have at least tried.
I was the leader. I had certain responsibilities to my companions.
One lady was pretty tired so I could not push it.
It’s funny because one of the others wanted to do just that.
That will have to wait for another day.
MTU -
Do you have any communication available out on those hikes, or you on your own?
“Thankfully, the Steinbrenners and Cashman will offer these players exactly what they feel they are worth to the team and what makes sense…no matter what the fans and media believe.”
——————————————–
Which means what?
Al-
You’re right about the Giants. They have to have a pulse first.
Where is Vince Lombardi when you need him ?
A good size 12 in the right place may wake them up.
MTU -
Now even the stadium has no power – funny.
Al-
40 square miles of wilderness. Phones don’t work out there. Someone back home always knows our itinerary, and we carry basic first aid equipment.
It’s kind of like filing a flight plan.
The group stays together. Those are the rules.
MTU -
That could be costly in a real emergency, hope you never find yourself in that type of situation. Need a military satellite phone.
Dinner bell, catch you later.
Al-
That would be the ultimate.
In the literally hundreds and hundreds of hikes I’ve done no one has ever been seriously injured on one of my hikes. Cuts and scrapes for sure but no one has ever taken a serious fall or broken a thing.
All hikes are clearly specified as to their difficulty and nature beforehand. Our hikers
know this and they act in accordance with their abilities. They are seasoned veterans.
I would never allow someone on one of my hikes who did not have the ability.
We watch out for each other. It creates a kind of esprit de corps.
If I were hiking alone I would have a PLB.
I don’t take those kinds of chances now. Too
many things can happen that way.
MTU -
“Must Love Dogs” is a must see. It hits on all levels – Diane Lane, John Cusack, dogs AND, for me, Christopher Plummer.
LGY November 14th, 2010 at 6:12 pm
“Thankfully, the Steinbrenners and Cashman will offer these players exactly what they feel they are worth to the team and what makes sense…no matter what the fans and media believe.”
——————————————–
Which means what?
———————————————————————————————————————-
It means exactly what it says. They’ll pay these guys what the organization feels makes sense to them and exactly what they feel they can afford, regardless of the whining from media and fans about overpaying.
Teams have never ever overpayed anyone to ensure they land a player, despite the future consequences.
rolleyes.
MTU, did you ever hear the story of Aron Ralston, in Blue John Canyon(sp)?
It’s set to be released as a movie in early 2011, directed by Danny Boyle (Slumdog Millionaire) and stars James Franco (Spider Man).
It’s one of the most amazing stories of survival I’ve ever heard, and it’s made even more amazing by Ralston’s actual accomplishments before AND after the accident.
And I don’t want them to overpay Lee………..OBVIOUSLY (or it should be to anyone else), if the Yankees pay Lee what he wants, it’s because they don’t think it’s overpaying. If they thought it was overpaying, they wouldn’t do it. Get it? I don’t even need the roll eyes thingy
If I were hiking alone I would have a PLB.
—————————–
All though it sounds good, I don’t see how Pickles, Lettuce, and Bacon sandwiches help in emergencies.
The point is not that they don’t overpay. Isn’t the point that if the Yankees overpay they think it’s worth it for one reason or another? And none of the whining by us fans or the media will make a difference? They’re not gonna not overpay just because of what “outsiders” think.
We’re watching the Giants on DVR delay and just saw the interception turned into a TD by Dallas. Oy.
I meant to ask, what IS a PLB?
Aldo-
I’ve been to the Blue John Canyon area. I was hiking at Canyonlands during the filming of 127 hours and have of course read his book. It will be an instant hit out here.
Aaron is an amazing guy but he definitely has a Death wish IMO. He should have died many times over. What he did violated the Cardinal
rule of hiking in the Wilderness, and he admitted as much.
Never change your itinerary in mid stream.
File a hiking plan and stick to it. For a bright guy he made a real rookie mistake. Amazing
will to live. Glad he survived to tell the tale.
Aldo-
PLB=Personal Locator Beacon. It’s the civilian version of what a downed pilot would have in order to be located.
Anyone who hikes in the Wilderness solo, which is a very bad idea to begin with IMO, should accept the added cost and have one.
If you become disabled or injured you can signal and they’ll have a chance to find you.
KPB-
Maybe that’s what it stands for in the Bayou.
Not out here.
MTU,
I’m not at all experienced, but as I was first watching the story being told (on Dateline), that’s exactly what I thought to myself, “Why would an experienced hiker do that?”
He MUST’VE had a death wish, though. After all, he was Phi Beta Kappa, an RA at Carnegie Mellon, worked as a mechanical engineer for Intel. So he KNEW what he was doing.
I read that members of the audience at the Toronto Film Festival passed out during the amputation scene.
PLB: Personal Liquor Bottle.
It’s very, very handy.
MorningPerson
I agree that they won’t feel like they overpaid. What ever someone is willing to pay for a product or service is what determines value of something. What I would pay for something, someone else might think it’s too much.
No surprise here.
“But Jose Guillen only put himself and his wife in a world of legal hurt when the Giants’ outfielder allegedly arranged for a shipment of nearly 50 pre-loaded syringes of human growth hormone to be sent to his San Francisco address in September, while his team was clawing its way to a playoff berth”.
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....inges.html
Tom
Aldo-
It was that knowledge and mindset that contributed to his survival. He looked at it as another engineering problem to solve. The guy had ice water running thru his veins.
His achievements speak for themselves. all those “Fourteeners”, etc. He really wasn’t an experienced desert rat though, and it showed.
His ability to do that and the fact that he was able to walk out of there on his own after all that he had been through are a testament to
his conditioning and his will to survive.
Damn! Scanning the headlines, I see that lupica agrees with me on Marvin Miller being long overdue for the HOF.
Something must be wrong with me.
Tom-
I believe that’s called a “flask”.
Owners are the ones that vote for executives and pioneers in baseball. They’ll never vote for Marvin Miller, who should have been in 20 years ago, along with Ron Santo, Al Oliver, Jim Kaat and Tommy John.
Giants got a wake up call today.
I just think that if a guy has a surgery named after him – and then goes on to have a second career basically after the surger, he really ought to be in the Hall of Fame.
Maybe there should be separate Hall for baseball that focuses on the business of baseball rather than the game itself. Miller, Steinbrenner, they didn’t so much change the way the game was played as how it was run.
It’s a different perspective.
Aldo-
One more neat thing about where Ralston went hiking.
The general area is called “Robber’s Roost”.
Why ?
Because people like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid used to hide out there. That also tells you a lot about it’s remoteness.
That’s what the vote on…executives, pioneers and innovators. That’s the area that steinbrenner/Miller fall in to.
I don’t mean to start any trouble here, but …
Daniel Craig is the best James Bond ever, by far (watching a James Bond marathon today, on and off).
Sean Connery was a legend. I said, WAS.
Roger Moore looked like he was modeling for KMart.
George Lazenby was forgettable. He couldn’t get picked out of a lineup.
Timothy Dalton was cartoonish.
Pierce Brosnan was ok, too contrived.
Daniel Craig makes me not wanna mess with him.
GB7 -
Oh, okay. After I re-read my post, it seemed kind of ditzy.
Brain cramp by me?
Aldo-
I always thought a guy like Jason Statham would have made a great Bond.
He’s the martial arts guy from the “Transporter”.
MTU,
“robbers roost” … Cool stuff.
Aldo-
I kind of thought so. Glad you did too.
MTU, I know Jason Statham well. Crank was enjoyable because of him, in spite of the silly ending.
Italian Job, Transporter … He seems to be stuck with to the likable bad guy roles.
Aldo-
Yeah. Kind of type cast but he would bring a real “authenticism” to the role.
“Owners are the ones that vote for executives and pioneers in baseball. They’ll never vote for Marvin Miller, who should have been in 20 years ago”
Not the case under the HOF’s new voting format. Miller’s candidacy will be considered and voted on by the following group (75% needed for election):
The 16-member electorate charged with the review of the Expansion Era ballot features: Hall of Fame members Johnny Bench, Whitey Herzog, Eddie Murray, Jim Palmer, Tony Perez, Frank Robinson, Ryne Sandberg and Ozzie Smith; major league executives Bill Giles (Phillies), David Glass (Royals), Andy MacPhail (Orioles) and Jerry Reinsdorf (White Sox); and veteran media members Bob Elliott (Toronto Sun), Tim Kurkjian (ESPN), Ross Newhan (retired, Los Angeles Times) and Tom Verducci (Sports Illustrated).
It means exactly what it says. They’ll pay these guys what the organization feels makes sense to them and exactly what they feel they can afford, regardless of the whining from media and fans about overpaying.
*************
That’s obvious.
It doesn’t mean it will be the right decision nor does it mean they won’t regret what they paid in the future.
I hope the Yanks pay all of them 2 times the going rate just to piss you and the others off.
I honestly don’t think Statham could pull it off. He emotes that rugged, rough, attractive to the ladies, protagonist.
The Bond characters have to look as natural in a tux as they do throwing a guy off a roof. Not easy.
Who knows? Maybe jason will get the chance. But he’ll definitely need to borrow Sean’s old rug.
Mell -
Thanks.
Sounds like it ought to be a more well-rounded body of voters. At the very least, players who were directly impacted my Miller have a vote, it looks like.
****
LGY -
I think the basic thing here is whether it’s a right or wrong decision, you really only know in hindsight.
And I don’t get the absolute obsession some people have with the amount of money the Yankees spend. They have the money. And you just never know, never can know, for sure how any deal is going to work going forward.
Frankly, the Yankees are never going to get a bargain, and they’re rarely going to get away with a market neutral price on a big name player. So, I don’t understand the fascination with it. “It is what it is,” – the cost of doing business as the NY Yankees.
I hope the Yanks pay all of them 2 times the going rate just to piss you and the others off.
***********
So you would like to see myself and others annoyed and the expense of the team you root for?
That’s strange.
Ugh – What happened to Eli today?
Craig does give Bond a depth that most of other actors who’ve played him lacked.
Mell, Kurkjian’s on the committee? How many times has he nominated Theo for enshrinement?
GB
Haven’t you gone on and on about how the Yankees should and can afford to resign Wood?
What if the Yankees don’t sign him because of money?
“Mell, Kurkjian’s on the committee? How many times has he nominated Theo for enshrinement?”
LOL. I don’t think these guys have nominating power. I like the mix. Should serve to keep the voting from being subject to any ridiculous grudges or agendas. Miller should have been in ages ago. Hopefully this time it comes together.
“Daniel Craig makes me not wanna mess with him.”
Me too, but in a female way if you know what I mean.
MTU, Tom,
If you haven’t already done so, I highly recommend another Daniel Craig movie, Defiance, based on a true story.
Craig plays one of two Jewish brothers (Liec Schreiber the other) who hide out in the forest with Russian resistance fighters. They eventually harbor about 1,000 Jewish civilians, the survivors of whom have about 15,000 descendants alive today.
Gripping story.
I’m sorry, I left out “Russian resistance fighters in Nazi-occupied Easter Europe.”
Laura, if I admit to knowing what you mean, then I’m admitting to a man crush, and as someone said recently, “therapy’s expensive.”
GB7:
“I hope the Yanks pay all of them 2 times the going rate just to piss you and the others off.”
You sound like you’re back to your old self to me
Aldo-
Thanks for the tip.
I sure would like to be a fly on the wall at these GM meetings.
My typing skills are atrocious …
Liec Schrieiber
Easter Europe
What the deuce!
MTU November 14th, 2010 at 8:28 pm
I sure would like to be a fly on the wall at these GM meetings.
—————————————————-
MTU, any particular reason?
From what I see so far, there’s Lee and then there’s everybody else (composed mostly of guys in their mid- to upper-thirties, looking to hold on somewhere).
The interesting thing will be how Theo, the Rays, Yankees, Texas, and other contenders shape out their roster (“which one of these older guys do we want for our team?”).
Harsh maybe, but I think true. Blockbuster trades are the only real surprises nowadays.
Sad story from the Mets:
“[T]he father of new Mets GM Sandy Alderson died on Saturday night due to injuries sustained upon being struck by a vehicle in St. Petersburg, Florida. Authorities are investigating the incident, but no charges have yet been filed against the 21-year-old driver.
John Alderson, a veteran of World War II, Korea and Vietnam, was 87 years old.”
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports......-accident/
murphydog November 14th, 2010 at 8:17 pm
GB7:
“I hope the Yanks pay all of them 2 times the going rate just to piss you and the others off.”
You sound like you’re back to your old self to me
———————————————————————————————————————-
Hey, Murph. Yeah, amazing what a little blood letting does for a guy.
I just don’t see an issue. The Steinbrenners have never not gotten a player they wanted because of just money…including Beltran. GMS wanted Johnson more and in his eyes, Bernie Williams and Sheffield had center and right covered. It’s been years since NYYs had a left fielder that played full time…Winfield/Henderson. They didn’t go after bay or Holliday because they didn’t want them.
Johnney Damon and matsui not full time left fielders? More made up stuff from GB7 who apparently knows what the yankees are saying? Oh goodness gracious
Thinking not saying.
The choice was Johnson OR beltran. Because of money.
“I just don’t see an issue. The Steinbrenners have never not gotten a player they wanted because of just money…including Beltran. GMS wanted Johnson more and in his eyes, Bernie Williams and Sheffield had center and right covered. It’s been years since NYYs had a left fielder that played full time…Winfield/Henderson. They didn’t go after bay or Holliday because they didn’t want them.”
———————————————
You are confusing the Yankees have never gotten outbid for a player they wanted with the Yankees have never not gotten a player they wanted over money.
There have certainly been players the Yankees have wanted, but didn’t even begin to bid on them, because everyone even them has their limitations.
Let’s say the Steinbrenners don’t sign A-Rod for $30 million a year. Are you saying they wouldn’t have targeted other players, because they didn’t want them?
You don’t think Matt Holliday has a much better chance of being a Yankee with more cash lying around?
Actually, Damon was signed as a CFer.
MTU November 14th, 2010 at 8:28 pm
I sure would like to be a fly on the wall at these GM meetings.
*************
So would I. There are some terrific free agent ballplayers other than Cliff Lee, and no certainty as to where they are going and for how much.
Crawford, Werth, Martinez, Dunn, Soriano, Konerko, Ordonez, Benoit, Beltre, Huff, LaRoche, Wood.
Actually, Damon was signed as a CFer.
–
Yea but he was moved to left field, and at the time he and matsui resigned they signed Matsui to play LF full time.
Maybe the Yankees never signed Beltran because of GB7s conflict of interest.
He knew what Beltran was thinking saying he was never really going to take a discount and he knew what GMS was thinking.
The Players Union must have gotten wind and nixed any potential deal. For shame.
Curious why assistant GM’s are not allowed at the meetings this year.
If the yankees budget is so unlimited, why aren’t they paying bench players 10 mil a year so we have a veteran, all-star laden bench??? Cashman must want that, the steinbrenners must want that, right?
The Yankees do not have an unlimited budget that’s pretty obvious as Cashman and Hal have said as much on more than one occasion.
According to Forbes they had an operating income of about $25 million dollars.
Cash was actually just faking when he tried to trade for Cameron.
The Melkman was partying it up with his shirt off in his hotel room too much and wanted to send a message.
He didn’t really want Cameron.
LGY, imo, corner outfielders like Holliday, Werth, and Crawford, are not as much in demand.
The Holliday contract was an aberration, and insanity, I think, on St. Louis’ part.
Werth and Crawford will get their eight figure salaries, likely from teams that were not contenders, like the Red Sox and Angels. But not at Holliday’s level, I think.
If I was a GM, this is what I would be looking at (the names can vary) …
Holliday 28-103-.312-.390-.532 – $16,300,000
Swisher 29-89-.288-.359-.511 – $6,850,000
Is it werth the difference (pun intended)? I don’t think so.
typo, “likely from teams that were not LATE contenders, like the Red Sox and Angels.”
Truth is nixing the Cameron deal was never about money.
Mary Carey had some comprimising photos of the Hankmonster and she blackmailed the Brothers Stein into keeping Leche in Center.
Anyone who’s interested, the walking dead on AMC is a pretty good show.
Aldo-
It’s just basic curiosity about what gets said; how it’s said ; and how deals get done.
“If the yankees budget is so unlimited, why aren’t they paying bench players 10 mil a year so we have a veteran, all-star laden bench??? ”
Because maybe Cashman doesn’t think a bench player is worth 10 million. Why is that so hard to comprehend.
If Cashman wants someone badly enough the Yankees will find the money. Exhibit A: Tex
The Yankees (The Steinbrenners) set the operating budget.
This year Hal has said that the budget would be in the same “range”
as last year.
I interpret that to mean that there is a budget goal in mind with a certain amount of flexibility, not unlimited flexibility but a little “room” is built in.
I also believe that to some extent Hal might be open to being convinced to “break” the budget for an exceptional situation.
That’s my take.
Aldo
I believe and I think I’m right about that belief that Holliday is the 2nd best OF in baseball. If the Yankees don’t sign Alex to an outrageous contract I fully believe he would be patrolling LF in YS.
I’m don’t understand the names can vary thing. Who compares to Holliday?
More important who compares to Swish? I can’t think of anyone. He was one of the biggest steals in recent memory.
I’m hoping that Cashman makes moves to solidify the bullpen quickly, and signs or trades for a lefty. If Detroit adds VMart and/or Crawford, maybe they could be persuaded to part with Coke. I’d rather him than the lefty FA options.
Joba could get another shot as the 8th inning guy, or he could be traded. Nova could be the #5 starter, or a bullpen piece. Cashman has stressed flexibility the last few years, so I’d look for moves with multiple implications. An innings eating veteran (Garland?). A long reliever/spot starter. A good-hitting, good-defense utility man (Wiggington/Betemit?)
I agree MTU.
Because maybe Cashman doesn’t think a bench player is worth 10 million
–
It doesn’t matter what they are worth if the Yankees can just spend as much money as they want. You don’t think the Yankees value having quality backups? They have a budget, its larger than everyone else and sometimes nebulous in its limitations, but it exists.
The Yankees (The Steinbrenners) set the operating budget.
This year Hal has said that the budget would be in the same “range”
as last year.
I interpret that to mean that there is a budget goal in mind with a certain amount of flexibility, not unlimited flexibility but a little “room” is built in.
I also believe that to some extent Hal might be open to being convinced to “break” the budget for an exceptional situation.
–
The thing is with this, is that the more you break the bank each year, the higher your operational budget becomes the higher you go to break the bank the next year.
So either the Yankees will spend 300 mil eventually, or soon they won’t get a player because they can’t afford them.
Tar-
What other logical way is there to do it ?
You don’t want a rigid #, and you don’t want a budget that is completely out of control.
So what do you do ?
You set a goal with a range of flexibility.
That makes a lot of sense and seems doable.
I’m sure the Steinbrenner’s are getting tired of paying Luxury tax to help their competitors, and the less of it they have to shell out the more they like it but sometimes that’s just the cost of doing buisness.
It’s a balancing act even though the Yankee organization is a freakin’
money machine.
After Cliff Lee, the two most coveted free agents by far are corner outfielders, Crawford and Werth.
Jerkface-
They can set the goal and range wherever they deem fit.
It doesn’t have to be higher it can trend lower too.
That’s up to them IMO.
Why is that so hard to comprehend
—-
Not trying to be rude just turning the question on you.
Why is it so hard to comprehend that every dollar spent on a player is one less you can spend on another?
LGY…..I remember last winter that I was with you in the Holliday camp to slot into leftfield….I also thought that if they passed on him it was due to the fact that they had their eye on Crawford this winter……With the possible coming of Montero and his thunder bat from the right side, they may think about another left handed stick for the lineup that has some sock, enter Carl Crawford who not only can steal 50-60 bases but can also smack 25-30 dingers…..The thought of Gardner ( 9th ), Carl leadoff and Granderson hitting 2nd is a nightmare for opposing pitchers, managers and the defense……And yes Alex’s contract is 50 million overweight over the course of the 10 years……
Well, the budget is arbitrary and they certainly have the money to spend if they decide they want a player. They are a $1.6 billion dollar franchise with an almost unlimited line of credit and a ballpark $25 million profit last year.
Pat – it wouldn’t make much sense IMO to have three left-handed hitters in a row, Gardner, Crawford and Granderson.
Pat M.-
I get the feeling that you do not have that much faith in GGBG going forward.
Am I right about that ?
I think the current regime is tending to prioritize elite talent and doing what it takes to get it while being relatively thrifty otherwise. Which is probably the way the Yankees should be ran…..develop what you can from within and run a budget similar to other teams except for the special players, then let your financial advantage show.
MTU November 14th, 2010 at 10:12 pm
The Yankees (The Steinbrenners) set the operating budget.
This year Hal has said that the budget would be in the same “range”
as last year.
————————————–
I have a theory about what he means by that.
Luxury tax threshhold went up, didn’t it?
Well, so will their budget, in direct or similar proportion to the increase in the luxury tax threshhold.
Their budget goes up and they’re still in the same “range,” so to speak.
At least that’s the way I’D do it, if they let me spend THEIR money.
Then again, what do I know?
Blake-
I like your take. It’s a nice way to run an airline. Or a baseball team.
Well they sure are betting a great deal on Gardner. They basically gave up on Holliday and now Crawford (probably) because of him. That jury is still out as far as I am concerned.
Aldo-
That makes sense. No one hear is privy so it’s all theory on our part
until the team is finally assembled.
If you really want to settle this I’ll call Hal and just ask him.
“Why is it so hard to comprehend that every dollar spent on a player is one less you can spend on another?”
That is not the issue, and you know it.
The issue is spending the dollars on particular players that we all know and need now, over some future unknown player that at this point we can’t even name.
The way I see this issue is that every team has a budget, every team chooses which players they want to spend their money on. Of course at some point spending money on player A means you can’t spend money on player B.
I think the real problem many of you have is you simply don’t agree on the players the Yankees choose to spend on or refrain from spending on. They can never have everyone. And not everyone is going to agree with how they use their money.
And if some day the Yankees budget balloons to $300 million, why should anyone here really really care? First of all, that is not likely to happen. But second of all, if they decide to set their budge at $300 million, it should mean that they can afford that and are willing to take on the consequences in luxury tax.
However, they seem to set a reasonable budget (for them) in the last few years. Their budget didn’t stop them from getting Mark Teixeira – an impact player, the type of player who doesn’t come along all the time. They’re not going to break their budget for bench guys and role players. You spend more for things that will stick around a long time, and less for the items that are likely to come and go.
Tom, how depressing. My condolences to Sandy Alderson and his family……….
MTU…..I was surprised in how Brett played before his injury….He needs to be tutored by someone ( Mickey Rivers maybe ) on stealing bases more effectively…..Do you roll the dice and assume he’ll continue to improve or do you move Swisher / Granderson and try to sign Crawford…….As for the 3 lefties in a row, I’m just blinded by the speed and the insanity it would cause the opposition…….Cliff Lee is the prime suspect right now ….
“The issue is spending the dollars on particular players that we all know and need now, over some future unknown player that at this point we can’t even name.”
———————————-
How is it just future players when their bad contracts have already affected who they pursue and who is on the roster?
Who they need and to what degree they need them relative to how much they cost is also a subjective belief.
I believe there should have been a limit at which they needed Alex and I believe there should be a limit at which they need Derek.
MTU,
The Lux Tax doesn’t help other teams. That money goes to MLB.
Tar -
“The issue is spending the dollars on particular players that we all know and need now, over some future unknown player that at this point we can’t even name.”
This too!
WC, I don’t believe that. At the time, Gardner was hardly proven – so no, I don’t believe that the Yankees chose him over Holliday. I remember those talks and I never once believed the Yankees were serious about Holliday – still don’t. However, if they were, I believe they didn’t bite due to the fact that it would have been yet another big, bulky contract – and we have enough of those. A part of me is glad we didn’t go there, but as I’m not a Gardner fan, a part of me wishes we had. Th
WC, I don’t believe that. At the time, Gardner was hardly proven – so no, I don’t believe that the Yankees chose him over Holliday. I remember those talks and I never once believed the Yankees were serious about Holliday – still don’t. However, if they were, I believe they didn’t bite due to the fact that it would have been yet another big, bulky contract – and we have enough of those. A part of me is glad we didn’t go there, but as I’m not a Gardner fan, a part of me wishes we had. Th
LGY
MorningPerson gets it. And does a hell of a lot better job at explaining it.
Morning Person-
The other thing people have to realize is that the budget is not a zero-sum game wherein revenues stay static over time. A fixed pie.
The revenue stream changes form year to year and hopefully continues to grow.
The budget is some portion of that dynamic which Hal has to project.
If the paycheck grows the outlays can grow as well. If the paycheck shrinks the outlays should shrink as well.
Fortunately for yankee fans some very smart people are running the show and revenues generally continue to grow even in this crappy
economy. That bodes well for the future.
I don’t think there’s any doubt there is a budget. If the Yankees want Lee, they’ll bid strongly for him, but I do not believe they will go beyond where they think he’s worth. Cash said fairly recently that he wants players who want to be here…….Basically he said that he doesn’t want to have to overpay just to bribe players to get here. So, I think the Yankees have valued Lee at a certain amound and will offer him that. If it’s not good enough, then they will move on.
“First of all, that is not likely to happen.”
——————————
That is exactly the point.
They are not likely to substantially raise their budget, which is why the length and amount of the contracts they hand out is integral to how much the team competes not just next year, but 5, 6, 7 years from now.
No way I’m moving Granderson or Swisher just to get Crawford; I’m not moving Granderson anyway.
They can’t pursue everyone LGY. They make a choice on who to pursue. Every team does. This is not something that affects only the Yankees.
Signing Alex did not stop them from signing CC, AJ and Teixeira in one off-season. And those three signings alone led to a World Series. Signing Derek Jeter will not stop them from signing Cliff Lee. It may stop them from signing Carl Crawford, or they may not sign Carl Crawford because they don’t see him as enough of an upgrade to warrant replacing the low salary of Gardner. Or you could look at it as keeping Gardner allows them to sign Lee. They prioritize their needs each year. So far, it looks like Lee is priority one and if there are any other priority players to the Yankees, it’s a secret. But you nor I nor anyone here is privy to what their plans B, C, D, or E are.
What is it that you really want them to do?
Corner outfielders, imo, are not a priority on a winning team, unless they can bat 3rd or cleanup.
These are the Yankees’ leftfielders on their last 5 title teams …
2009 – Johnny Damon
2000 – Ricky Ledee, Shane Spencer
1999 – Chad Curtis, Ricky Ledee
1998 – Chad Curtis
1996 – Gerald Williams, Tim Raines (in his twilight)
Betsy my point is that I think one of the reasons they passed on Holliday last year was because Crawford was who they really wanted and they were willing to wait on him, like they passed on Santana to wait for Sabathia.
Then Gardner playing well last season made them reconsider Crawford. Basically because he is so much cheaper.
Lgy-
I stand corrected then but I don’t think any owner enjoys the Luxury tax wherever it is going.
It’s a penalty any way you look at it. The less of it the better.
If it stands in the way of the yankees obtaining someone they really
covet then Hal has to deal with it or lose out.
It’s that simple. Personally, it seems that they are willing to tolerate
a certain amount of it to get what they want but there are definitely
limits in place.
It is not about signing every free agent or pursuing everyone.
It is about competing every single year. It is about the back end of these contracts as much as it is about the front end of these contracts.
I believe Rich said this the other day and he was spot on. They do not play like a $200 million team. They don’t because they are paying top dollar for players that are no longer the top at their position and that is only going to get worse as these guys get older.
The more they have and continue to overpay players in years and dollars the more and more it will hurt.
LGY,
You have no idea what could happen 5, 6, 7 plus years down the road.
For instance, Nunez could take the job from Jeter in 2 years and they Yankees could be set at shortstop for the next 10 years, most of which could be at low cost. Much lower than Jeter. Jeter will come off the payroll, Mariano is coming off the payroll, Jorge and Andy, too.
It is not inconceivable that they can be replaced from within. No one saw Mariano coming No one knew he was going to be the GOAT.
I used Jeter/Nunez as an example, but you could replace that analogy with any of the players.
What if Montero takes off, or what if Montero doesn’t hit it off as a catcher, but ends up being the full time DH with one of Romine or Sanchez or whoever at catcher. You’re writing all these players off as being non-competitve or rather not being good enough to enable the Yankees be competitive before even playing a single ML game?
There are no guarantees either way. But the Yankees do their planning and they’ll figure it out.
It’s totally unimportant where a certain position bats in a lineup. How many second baseman are power hitters that bat fifth and hit 29 home runs and knock in 109.
I think they passed on a Holliday because 1) the Cards really wanted him and drove the price really high 2) because they knew Crawford would be there this year if Gardner didn’t work out 3) they wanted to keep money available for Cliff Lee.
Holliday is better than Crawford or Werth and the fact that they passed on him tells me that they really really want Lee and that they must have a good deal of faith in Brett Gardner.
Basic baseball, develop your strength up the middle – C, P, SS, 2B, CF.
Yankees can use more P (then again, who can’t?)
Corner positions are role players, unless you’re lucky enough to have one who can hit 3rd or 4th.
Just my take. Opinions vary.
MorningPerson,
I said how *much* the team competes, not that they won’t be competitive. As in the decisions they have made and the decisions they continue to make will affect the degree at which they will compete in the future.
Saying that you don’t know what will happen down the road doesn’t mean anything. When you make a decision and sign a contract that extends that far down the road you have to assess the total package.
You can’t just blindly say whatever, who knows what will happen in 7 years, so who cares?
Unless you think allocating $30 million to a 40+ year old Alex Rodriguez won’t affect the degree at which they compete?
LGY
You are also leaving out the uniqueness of Alex and Derek.
How much is 3000 hits going to be worth to the Yankees next year? You fail to realize that Jeter may add as much or more to the coffers as he takes out. Why is that not a consideration in your figures?
Holliday can hit 3rd or 4th. He was the best OF in baseball when he was a FA until Hamilton took that crown last year.
FYI -The Yankees pay considerably more in revenue-sharing than they do in the luxury tax payments. But, MLB has not made public the luxury taxes that ball clubs pay since 2005.
LGY -
Players’ contracts end.
A team is always, always, always in flux.
And they have competed every single year for a long, long, long time now. They have gone to the post-season 15 out of the last 16 years, I believe it is.
What they haven’t done is win a WS every single year. I don’t have a problem with that.
“You are also leaving out the uniqueness of Alex and Derek.
How much is 3000 hits going to be worth to the Yankees next year? You fail to realize that Jeter may add as much or more to the coffers as he takes out. Why is that not a consideration in your figures?”
———————————————–
“Iconic, off-the-field value doesn’t translate in my world”
-Brian Cashman
Pat M.-
I guess your answer is that you’re not really confident in GGBG going forward or you probably wouldn’t feel a need to replace him.
The only advantage that cc has over GGBG at this point is power.
Do we really need more power especially when you consider what Jesus might be able to bring next season, and the cost differential ?
IMO, no. Grandy and Swish are going to provide all the power we need from the OF next season.
Let’s make sure we get Lee and try our best to get AP to return.
We do that and we’ll be very close to ready for 28.
What a pitching staff that would be.
“Players’ contracts end. ”
——————————-
??
“Iconic, off-the-field value doesn’t translate in my world”
That’s funny coming from the guy doing the negotiations. LOL
Here is another question how much was the winning the World Series worth to the Yankees last year? Do they win it without Alex?
LGY -
You misunderstand. I don’t think the Yankees don’t plan ahead. I am saying YOU don’t know what is going to happen that far in advance.
And I don’t understand the difference you are trying to make between how much they compete and how competitive they are.
To me a competitive team is in the mix for the playoffs every year. As I stated above, they’ve done fairly well in that regard over the last at least 16 years. And I include 2008, because for a down year, with a ton of injuries, especially to 2 key players and a #1 pitcher, they stayed competitive. Ultimately they fell short, but they did not lay down and die.
Blake…..You really think Holladay is the better ballplayer ???? I absolutley agree that Werth is more like Jason Bay and will be overpaid, but Carl Crawford ????
Its tough for a team like the Yankees to totally rid themselves of all dead payroll because they are constantly trying to win every year by signing the best players….most of which they have to tack on an extra year or two to acquire. There is a trade off…you could stop doing that and develop your own or perhaps lose out on a few players but then rebuilding isn’t something the Yankee fan is too keen on. I think the Yanks will try and become more efficient over the next few years but it doesn’t happen overnight.
“Here is another question how much was the winning the World Series worth to the Yankees last year? Do they win it without Alex?”
———————————
That’s a good question. I’m sure it was worth a ton of cash to them, which is why it is even crazier to start paying for off the field value at the compromise of on the field quality. If indeed it is so valuable to them as you and I assume paying through the nose for an eventual 40+ year old DH may cost them financially because it may cost them putting the best team on the field.
I don’t know if they win without Alex.
I would have loved to see what Cashman would have done with an extra $30 million as he wanted to do when Alex opted out.
You can buy a lot with $30 million and I think Cashman is a very good GM, so it would have been very interesting to see.
It may not translate in Cashman’s part of the world, but it does to the owners. Otherwise they would have let Alex walk.
Not to mention Cashman’s not about to broadcast the Yankees’ intentions or negotiating tactics.
Pat M,
I do….its just a preference really. They both are very good but I like what Holliday brings to the table offensivley a bit more and I tend to think he may age a bit better as his game isn’t as reliant on speed. You could make a strong counter argument for Carl….
MorningPerson,
No one knows what will happen that far in advance. But the point is to look at the roster and make reasonable predictions and have reasonable concerns based on what is there. It is not crazy talk to be worried about a team saddled with late 30s early and 40s players. It is reasonable.
The degree at which they are competitive means just that. The degree. How good will they be relative to their competition.
The past also has no impact on the future. The Yankees were competitive all those years because they developed a core of HOF baseball players. It is obvious why they were so great considering the players they developed plus the financial advantage they had.
The future as it stands right now looks much different than it did with a young core of Jeter, Bernie, Mo, Posada, and Pettitte.
Pat M,
I think Crawford is the 4th best LF in baseball.
1. Hamilton
2. Holliday
3. Braun
4. Crawford
MTU….I think the emergence of Gardner has made the Yanks stop and rethink about signing Crawford…….Rich in NJ was on the LoHud corner all last winter selling Brett Gardner, and it appears that he could be right as Brett has steadily improves from season to season…..I do think that if the Yanks misfire on Cliff Lee Carl Crawford comes into play as they’ll be moving Granderson or Swisher in a package for another starter though……And they have to pay a handsome price……As of now the rotation looks anemic, Sabathia & Hughes are strong and you have to think Burnett comes back but even then it’s soft at best…..
The title of this thread was “The beginning of the beginning”.
Well, for me, it’s the end of the beginning. I’m goin’ to bed.
See you all on the sunnyside.
Play nice.
“It may not translate in Cashman’s part of the world, but it does to the owners”
That is a separate issue. We are talking about fielding the best team possible and that is what Cashman’s job is.
“Otherwise they would have let Alex walk.”
Which is exactly what Cashman wanted to do, because he is concerned with maximizing the degree at which the Yankees compete and he had similar concerns that I do about the future.
Anyone I have to run. Good conversation tonight all. Catch you tomorrow.
LGY
The Yankees ownership was very greedy when it came to Alex Rodriguez. At the time, he was a slam dunk (or as close to it as anyone can be) to break the all-time HR record and he was going to bring that title back to the Yankees and he was going to do it clean. He was going to be their modern day Babe Ruth, I guess. The marketing possibilities of that must have seemed unbelievable to them. And it was worth it to them to give the extra years on the back end of the contract to ensure that he would indeed still be a Yankee when he hit that record-breaking homerun in pinstripes.
Well, we all know how that turned out. Plus the hip.
But in the meantime, Alex has still won a couple of MVP awards and finally brought a World Championship.
Not bad.
And there’s a chance that he could still break that record, and while it won’t have the same impact because even if the last 7 years of his career are PED-free, it’ll be worth something. Just not nearly as much.
At the time of ARod’s re-signing, I was torn. I made my peace with it, though. And then I made my peace with the PED thing. Life ain’t perfect.
“That’s a good question. I’m sure it was worth a ton of cash to them, which is why it is even crazier to start paying for off the field value at the compromise of on the field quality”
You are talking about cash in the bank over some unknown future quantity of “on the field quality”.
Honestly I wasn’t ecstatic over the length of contract given to Alex. But the Yankees will make that money back and more. And that’s not even considering on the field play. This is a unique situation. You are talking about 2 iconic money generating superstars.
BTW Holliday has a 7 year deal. You OK with that?
PatM.-
Thanks for your response. I understand your perspective but I don’t think it’s likely to happen because I’m confident we’ll get Lee.
Thus rendering cc superfluous.
If we whiff on Lee then I can see your point.
Have a good evening. It’s always a pleasure speaking with you.
Looking forward to hearing what your scouting buddies dredge up.
The length of A-Rod’s contract was beyond ridiculous. Seven more years? How much will that hurt the club going forward in financially limiting the signing of other players. His skills are definitely declining.
Consider these 2010 stats:
- Number of games played due to injury was the second lowest since he was 23 years old.
- His batting average was the lowest since he was 19 years old.
- His OBP was the lowest since he was 19 years old.
- His SLG was the lowest since he was 21 years old.
- His OPS was the lowest since he was 21 years old.
- His runs scored total was the lowest since he was 19 years old.
- His hits total was the second lowest since he was 21 years old.
- His home run total was tied for the lowest (with 2009) since he was 21 years old.
- His stolen base total was the lowest since he was 19 years old.
- His base on balls total was the lowest since he was 23 years old.
-
Well, there’s nothing we can do about it. They gave Alex that deal, they have to pay Jeter…………who else are we talking about? I like Tex, but IMO he’s not a great player and I wonder about that contract……not sure he’s worth it (only a few players are). Again who else are we talking about? They won the WS last year, so it’s hard to say they aren’t playing like a $200 million team.
Signing Teixera was a big deal and he is a very good player….the Sox are still chirping about how losing out on him foiled their plans and set them back.
LOL Well I’ll bet in 1996 we didn’t think we were going to have a mini-dynasty, so it’s unfair to make that period of time all rosy. How many teams are ever going to have a core group of guys like we did? None – that’s how many. The Yankees are in this position because we let our farm get barren. Now Cash is trying to rectify it, but it’s almost a losing proposition. We were desperate for
What kind of ball player will A-Rod be in 3-4 years much less 6 or 7.
“What kind of ball player will A-Rod be in 3-4 years much less 6 or 7.”
How much money will Alex have generated for the team in the in the first 5 years of his contract? Any guesses. My guess is his contract is paid for sooner rather than later.
Blake, he’s very good…………but I don’t think he’s great and I personally have issues now with that contract.
Back to my post: We were desperate to make the playoffs after 2008 and that made us land CC, Tex and AJ. Still and all, look at the situation we are in. We are depending on Lee to save this rotation – Lee and Andy. Not great – we have no idea if we are going to land one or both. Despite all the $$$ we spent on big FA in 2009, we still have to go out and get more. Cash did a nice job rebuilding the farm, but it’s very weak in terms of position prospects. He drafted a million catchers – who do we have in the farm other than Montero who can help us now? No one in the OF……..I know Cash wanted to concentrate on pitching first – but it would have been ok to draft a few position players.
A-Rod still hit 30 and drove in what 120?
He’ll bounce back.
“What kind of ball player will A-Rod be in 3-4 years much less 6 or 7″
There is no guarantee that the Yankees would spend the extra money if they weren’t giving it to Arod. Also as I’ve said before, though its too much money for too many years, things were a bit different when Alex signed that deal. He was coming off a historic season, there were no injuries, no steroid scandals, and he was going save all of baseball’s records from Barry Bonds…..and do so in a Yankee uniform. Its a crazy contract but when it was signed he had unbelievable leverage and the Yankees had a lot of reasons to do it….
That’s pretty hard to quantify – but it’s the on the field performance for the next seven years I am concerned about and what kind of obstacle his huge salary will be in preventing the signing of other necessary ballplayers down the road.
So, what’s our future?
Tex is good, but I really have issues with his streakiness and his tendency to disappear for months. Alex? I love Alex, but what’s going to be in a few years? At some point, Jeter will be gone…….but we have to hope for at least 3 years that he rebounds somewhat. Cano is beyond solid………
OF? I don’t love Gardner………I love Granderson and I like Swish. Our future? Our future is probably pretty good, but given the division, there are no guarantees.
Betsy,
what issues do you have? Would you rather the Red Sox given it to him….because they offered something close. They needed him and they did what they had to do to get him.
I agree with Betsy in that no one knew at the start of the dynasty that Jeter, Mo, Andy, Bernie and Posada were going to be who they were. All of them started with “potential.” They happened to fulfill theirs.
We don’t yet know whether the young players the Yankees seem to be holding onto will fulfill theirs as well.
Betsy November 14th, 2010 at 11:38 pm
I know Cash wanted to concentrate on pitching first – but it would have been ok to draft a few position players.
**************
He did. Cano, Austin Jackson and Gardner to name a few who worked out.
Betsy,
Tex is a great player. Has a chance to be a hofer.
He’s not gonna put up the steroid infused hof numbers we seen in the early 90′s late 2000′s.
Don’t let his bad postseasons change that.
He’s a game changer on O and D.
Blake, I’m not saying I regret it, but I think we overpayed for a guy that’s not really a superstar. This is the kind of thing I think LGY is talking about……we’ve got him for another 6 years. That’s a long time for a guy that I’m not super sure about……so, maybe I’m saying I think I may regret the deal in a few years. We’ve discussed his batting stance in here ad nauseum and how it makes him susceptible………….as we saw this season. This isn’t all about Tex, but these long term, burdensome contracts are a pain.
“That’s pretty hard to quantify – but it’s the on the field performance for the next seven years I am concerned about and what kind of obstacle his huge salary will be in preventing the signing of other necessary ballplayers down the road.”
I bet Boras can put a figure on it.
This is a business. It is naive to think that Alex and Derek are only worth what their play dictates. Will Alex’s play on the field be worth 30 million? I hope so, but I doubt it.
Now take in to account all the business aspects of the cash cow known as the Yankees. And I am quite confident that he generates more than he takes out.
Carl, I don’t agree……….and it has nothing to do with his bad post-season because nearly everyone on the team had a bad post-season.
# Betsy November 14th, 2010 at 11:46 pm
Carl, I don’t agree……….and it has nothing to do with his bad post-season because nearly everyone on the team had a bad post-season.
Then what is it?
The numbers he put up in his career so far are pretty stupid.
MP, the problem is that – what young players do we have? Montero? After that, the cupboard as far as position prospects is relatively empty. Possibly the pitchers will develop, but I’m taking a wait and see on them at this point; it’s just so hard to develop pitching and in NY? Even harder.
Tar – again, I am not arguing what he’s worth. I am saying that A-Rod’s on the field performance for the next seven years is what I am concerned about and what kind of obstacle his salary will be in preventing the signing of other ballplayers.
WCYF…..Most of what you communicated to us was based on Item # 1…..Good information
Carl, he’s a very good player. I don’t think he’s a superstar, I don’t think he’s a HOFer……..I just don’t. He disappears for months – I can’t ignore that. I understand that players are often streaky, but when we needed him last April, he was beyond awful – Alex was out and, if it weren’t for Swish, who knows if we would have hung in the race. He was awful for 2 months this year – 2 months, in a 6 month season – this was before he got hurt. I like Tex and I love his D – he’s beautiful out there – but it’s not belittling him to not call him a great player.
Betsy – what position players do we need? We are locked up in the infield for at least the next three years if that’s what Jeter signs for and we have youngsters in the outfield.
We can always pick up bench players and utiliyy guys.
Betsy,
Giving the extra year is a necessary evil sometimes if you want to stay competitive year in and year out. Tex is one of the best 1B in baseball, he has flaws but then most players do….he also does a lot of things very well and he was something the Yankees really needed at the time. He’ll be 36 or so at the end of his deal so even if he is starting to decline towards the end of it the Yanks still should have gotten several prime years out of the deal…..they’ll live with that.
Pretty hard to find a team that produced 3 future Hall Of Famers at the same time…..Rivers, Jeter, Posada……Having a Gold Glove switch hitting firstbaseman who most likely will hit 500 hr’s is not a bad think considering there’s only been 1 other guy to have done so at that position…Eddie Murray…..Not certain what’s not to like ????/
“Pretty hard to find a team that produced 3 future Hall Of Famers at the same time…..Rivers, Jeter, Posada…”
It is, and Andy could be another solid season away from consideration himself…….if he comes back.
WC, yes – and that’s what LGY was talking about. Alex- 7 more years. Jeter- probably 3. Tex – 6. While I disagreed with his implication that the future isn’t necessarily as bright as it was in 1996 because we don’t have that core here (as I explained in a post above), I think the point that we have so many long-term contracts tied up in aging players is a good one: not good.
You’re right- I guess we don’t need young players now, but I don’t really like where this is going.
Blake, I know some fans (both here and elsewhere) have concerns about Tex as he ages – even into his early 30′s – because of how he hits. I won’t bother worrying about that now and as I said, right now I don’t regret the contract. I know we needed him. I’m just thinking about this team and the future – and that’s why I’m glad we didn’t go after Holliday. These long term contracts with aging players are killers……….sure, they’re not aging when we sign them, but they’re aging in the middle/to the end of the deals.
# Betsy November 14th, 2010 at 11:49 pm
Carl, he’s a very good player. I don’t think he’s a superstar, I don’t think he’s a HOFer……..I just don’t. He disappears for months – I can’t ignore that. I understand that players are often streaky, but when we needed him last April, he was beyond awful – Alex was out and, if it weren’t for Swish, who knows if we would have hung in the race. He was awful for 2 months this year – 2 months, in a 6 month season – this was before he got hurt. I like Tex and I love his D – he’s beautiful out there – but it’s not belittling him to not call him a great player.
If Tex isn’t a superstar at first base, who besides Pujols is?
WCYF
I understand your argument and for most players I would agree with you and others.
But for these players I don’t.
Goodnight all.
Pat M,
If the Yankees win the Cliff Lee sweepstakes but Andy retires, what do you think they will do to fill his spot? De la Rosa, trade, Nova etc….?
Carl, I didn’t qualify my comments by limiting superstars at 1B, but since you asked…….besides Pujols? Probably no one. It’s not like I said Tex was garbage – I said he’s a very good player.
“I know some fans (both here and elsewhere) have concerns about Tex as he ages – even into his early 30’s – because of how he hits. ”
I was one of the ones who posted that and I do have concerns with his swing as he ages, but he’s only 30 and as I said the Yanks will be ok if he shows some age in the final couple years as long as he produces during the meat of the contract.
Blake, that’s fair……..but as I said, his tendency to disappear for months at a time is somewhat concerning to me. Every player slumps – I don’t care or get concerned about that – but his slumps last for eternities and he’s a middle of the order hitter. I’m not spending my off-season worrying about Tex, that’s for sure – but, the subject came up.
Anyway, I hope we don’t get into any more long-term deals with players……excepting Lee, and I hope that is the last one.
blake….I think they have an audition for the 5 & 6 spot ….Hopefully Nova continues to mature….There’s some real good arms that are maybe a year or two away so that’s why Pettite coming back bridges that gap….Hopefully Aceves can return to form……..This is where the Joba Chamberlain could have made all this a moot issue…..
Tex doesn’t disappear months at a time.
He just doesn’t hit in April.
This year was probably the first year he slumped into May.
http://www.baseball-reference......;t=b#month
career splits by month right there.
Luxury Tax, who paid what. Last 7 years.
http://www.stevetheump.com/luxury_tax.htm
Wait I take that back he hit .280 in May this year.
He struggled in June. Then after he broke his foot in Sept/Oct.
WCYF -
See above. Luxury Tax Info.
Carl, maybe it was the power #s then in May. He had a surge early in May, if I recall, then didn’t continue it.
I have to call it a night so I can get some sleep, but if I came across as being overly worried about Tex – I’m not. He’s a constant in the lineup and a rock at 1B.
There’s a new book coming out called The Business of Celebrity.
Alex is one of the people referenced in the book. Vince Gennaro, a sports economist, estimates Alex will add $50 to 100 Million dollars in revenue to the YES Network bottomline during this contract. That’s just YES Network; not the NY Yankees bottomline. Finances for the entities are kept seperate but the profits are realized by many of the same individuals.
Derek and Alex were #1 and 2 in merchandise sales which is +revenue
Derek had value added years in the 90′s before he started making “extra zeros money” and Alex cost the Yankees $15M not $25m for contract years 2004-2007 and despite what Cashman says now, the Yankees never put 4 million butts in the seats prior to Alex wearing pinstripes. Coincidence? Maybe. But the Yankees were doing a whole lot more winning from 1996- 2003 than they were from 2004-2008.
Overpaying Derek or Alex is offset by a return on investment. $40M extra paid to Alex is a better return than the $40M paid to Pavano during his Yankee tenure. An extra $5M paid to Derek in 2011 is better return than the $5M paid to Nick Johnson in 2010.
To the person above who asked, it was reported last year that the Yankees revenue from the first 2 rounds of postseason 2010 was estimated at $72M. I haven’t seen total postseason numbers reported anywhere.
Thanks Al – I couldn’t find those figures. It’s amazing how many in baseball and the media still don’t understand the difference. An example:
Gabe Lacques – USA Today:
“According to the Biz of Baseball, the Yankees have accounted for $175 million – or 92% – of all revenue-sharing payments since revenue sharing was instituted.”
Andrew Marchand – ESPN/NewYork:
“In the initial seven years of the luxury tax, the Yankees have paid teams nearly $175 million in revenue sharing, according to the BizofBaseball.com. That is 92 percent of the total revenue sharing that has been doled out.”
A-rod might generate enough money to cover his contract, though I find that doubtful, but the fact is the Yankees won’t have a 25 million dollar 39 year old A-rod and go ‘you know what? lets bench him!’ They’re not going to DFA him.
There’s really no defense of the A-Rod contract.
For all the times the Yankees are forced to overpay for their players, this was the one time they held all the cards.
He came crawling back on his hands and knees after opting out. There was no other business for him, yet he still got a raise.
That’s just bad business.
To think Alex would have been a free agent as well as Derek this winter right ???
Pat M. November 15th, 2010 at 1:16 am
To think Alex would have been a free agent as well as Derek this winter right ???
—————————————————————————————————-
Wow, you’re right. I wonder what kind of contract he’d have signed this winter?
BJK….I’m certain if Alex’s contract ran it’s original 10 year run without the opt out clause, he & Derek would be signed for less dough that what remains on his new exyended Hank contract,,,,That’s how bad Hank was in not thinking ahead…….His one and only act of authority…Well he did pull Young Master Hughes off the table in disgust during the Santana trade talks…So he’s 1 for 1 as head of the Boss Brothers…..Then Hal took the reigns before more chaos could occur……
Mondays are a good day to sleep in. Sure thing.
Good morning, morning people.
Sometimes it helps to go back in time to regain perspective on something. This on ARod, the opt-out, and the Yankees, circa July 2007:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....d.yankees/
There was also a RAB piece from March of this year that looked at lopsided trades in favor of the Yankees. The ARod deal was one of the most favorably lopsided deals Cashman made, accounting for something like 20 WAR during the original contract.
Good Morning.
I don’t know about you folks but personally I’m tired of discussing contracts. Actually bores me to death.
That sort of thing makes my eyes glaze over.
It’s for Lawyer’s and beancounters.
Those of you that enjoy it. Have at it. I’ll pass.
I’m sure The Yankees look ahead despite the fact that many people think they don’t. If they’re not worried about it why should I be ?
good morning early birds!
its a tough time of year MTU, b/c there is not much going on until some trades actually happen. How was the hike?
MTU -
Good morning.
Sorry for bringing last night’s discussion into the freshness of a new day. I just fell asleep thinking about something and wanted to check it out.
If we acquire Clif Lee and AP decides to hang ‘em up (I hope not) then we will need a middle of the rotation starter to fill the gap.
We’d have 2 lefties so another righty to go with CC and Lee would be
acceptable.
GB talked about trading for Billingsley. I’d like a guy like him for the
middle if AP doesn’t return.
For the time being I think of AJ as our #5 starter. I hope that changes next season and if it does that will make us even stronger.
CC,CL, and PH is a strong front end.
Kate-
Good morning.
It was a beautiful day. Got to see some nice red rock backcountry.
Here’s a few photos in case you didn’t see them yesterday.
http://picasaweb.google.com/cy.....dPwjuTzGA#
Enjoy.
You know, for as much grief as Scott Boras gets, with his clients, you always kind of know what they’re looking for. What is Cliff Lee looking for? What is “a lot” of money? What kind of years? Any extra perks? It’s probably in his best interests to not set an artificial limit, I guess.
I really hate that the entire off-season hangs on Lee – the more time he takes to decide what he wants to do, the more the possibility that plans B, C, D, etc. may not be available, you know?
Is it about getting the best contract he can get (Lee), or is about taking advantage of the royalty treatment in courting various teams? I’ll admit he has every right to take his time – and I’d do the same – but as a Yankees fan I am very impatient. I would love for the Yankees to sign Lee, but if it’s really not a possibility – if Lee is just going to string the Yankees along until he ultimately decides to sign elsewhere, I’d just as soon know that sooner than later. Before Crawford signs; before another top quality pitcher is traded to someone else.
MP-
No apology necessary. I was just expressing MY personal preference.
If the discussion turns back to that subject I can always chose simply to not participate.
Some folks are very passionate about it. Just not me.
MP-
Cashman can and does juggle several balls in the air at the same time.
Unlike me he can Hike and chew bubble gum at the same time.
“What is Cliff Lee looking for? What is “a lot” of money? What kind of years? Any extra perks? It’s probably in his best interests to not set an artificial limit, I guess.”
I’d be a little surprised if parameters of a deal weren’t some part of the convesrsation that Cashman and the Lee camp had last week. Just because Lee’s agent isn’t as obnoxious as Boras is, doesn’t mean A) that they don’t have some terms in mind and B) that they haven’t shared what they’re thinking with teams that are interested. If you recall, there wasn’t a lot of fat mouthin’ around what Sabathia was looking for either, yet it got done.
MTU -
Oddly enough, I’m not passionate about the contracts themselves, but I kind of get caught up in other people’s fascination with them. Especially when I’m bored and have nothing else to do or can’t sleep.
It’s only money – and not mine at that.
“Is it about getting the best contract he can get (Lee), or is about taking advantage of the royalty treatment in courting various teams?”
I’d say that is the former, and decidedly so.
When it comes to acquiring Lee I actually hope the Yankees take a similar approach to the one they did with CC.
Wine ‘em and dine ‘em. Overcome any objections they may have.
And then simply blow away the field using a “shock and awe” technique.
It worked last season and I see no reason it can’t work again.
thanks MTU…looks like you had a beautiful day
as impatient as I am to get this settled, I don’t blame Lee for taking his time. He knows that he will get a good contract, regardless.
Kate-
The sooner we get him the better. That will set the tone for our off season.
That said, we both know these things take some time.
Lee’s agent knows there is a competition for his services going on.
If he’s smart he will use that to his client’s advantage.
Boras is a Master at that. We’re lucky we’re not facing him on the other side of the table or this would drag on forever.
It should be done before Xmas. Maybe sooner.
JMHO.
Kate-
And there’s little doubt that Cash and Lee’s agent will have a 2nd sit down together at the upcoming meeting and more ideas should be exchanged.
Cash is gonna have a cauliflower ear and some serious bags under his eyes before this is over.
No matter though. He’s been to the dance many times before and knows the drill. He’s a chess player. He’s good at it.
Mell -
Oh, I’m sure Cashman knows all the parameters. I’m just wishing WE did!
I’m also sure Cashman was taking Lee’s temperature a bit, too, during the first meeting. Perhaps getting a feel for whether Lee is only interested in being the highest paid pitcher, or whether he truly would like to pitch for the Yankees (first choice). Perhaps it helps him decide to go the extra mile if some other teams comes up with a really competitive bid for Lee, if he got a good feel for Lee’s interest in pitching for the pinstripes.
You’re right about Sabathia – I remember it being more of an east coast versus west coast thing. But I also seem to remember that Cashman made an offer right away (though I could certainly be mistaken) and he hasn’t made an offer to Lee.
Or did Cashman make a visit to Sabathia prior to the Las Vegas meetings, and during the meetings make the offer? Or did he slip away from the LV meetings to meet with the Sabathias? A little foggy on the recall.
Mell -
That question of mine came out wrong. Of course he wants the best contract he can get. I think I’m making the leap that the Yankees are going to offer the best contract he can get, and doesn’t he know that?????
Hey, I’m just being an impatient fan, that’s all.
Yesterday I said I wish I could be a fly on the wall at these meetings.
It’s because I would love to know about the upcoming surprises even more than the things we expect to happen. I’m curious.
Granderson began at the Winter meetings last year.
No one was anticpating that.
Who kows what surprises might lie in store for us this year ?
Or for other teams ?
Sounds lkike fun to me.
“like”. sorry. the typo king has returned.
MP:
On Sabathia, Cashman all but got it done in, around, and during the GM Meetings. He was desperate then though. He isn’t so much so now. Also see Texas as far more formidable competition for Lee’s services than anyone was for Sabathia’s in 11/2008.
my guess for surprise move- John Buck
MTU November 15th, 2010 at 7:54 am
Some folks are very passionate about it. Just not me.
—————————————————
AND … not JUST you!
I like the back-and-forth of who’s available, who might help, what the other guys are doing, etc.
But when it comes to how much, how many years, how good someone MIGHT be in 5 years, etc., … I pass.
Aldo-
Sounds like you like playing armchair GM like so many of us do.
kate-
A surprise for me might be a realignment of our OF.
Personally, I like it just fine.
Kate – Buck on the Yanks?
espn (red sox nation) has him in the Red Sox cross hairs.
That WOULD be a surprise. A pleasant one.
MTU -
Realignment? A trade?
Aldo-
Yes. That sort of thing. It’s an area where we have some options.
I do not particularly favor it though.
I want to concentrate on Pitching, Pitching, and more Pitching.
Coin of the realm.
I wish I was as sure about Lee as many here seem to be.
The CC negotiations seemed so atypical … the Yankees just blowing everyone away from the outset.
I’m not so sure that they have that same ability on Lee, because of his age.
MTU -
Coin of the realm … catchy! I like it.
Aldo-
All I can say is that getting Lee is very, very important.
The Yankees know that too. They’re hot for him. Make no mistake about that.
I just hope they can get ‘er done. I know they’ll go all out.
Does that lead to success ?
No one knows that in advance. We’re gonna find out.
Pitching, pitching, pitching is exactly what it’s about.
Sorry to repeat from yesterday, but for me, it’s about strength up the middle.
C, P, SS, 2B, CF.
The Yankees can/need use SP.
Mell -
I’d agree with you that Cashman doesn’t appear to be as desperate for Lee as he was for Sabathia at the time. But it’s kind of odd that he isn’t, because the rotation really isn’t that much better off this year than in 2008. It should be – but because no one knows if AP is going to return or retire, and because AJ had such a bad year, and even though he probably wouldn’t have been back anyway Javy failed the Yankees – right now they have CC and Phil Hughes as guys they can count on being back and doing a good job for them.
“I’m not so sure that they have that same ability on Lee, because of his age”
They have the same ability. Question is do they have same motivation. When they went after Sabathia, he was a must have. Yankees were a 3rd place team with no obvious #1 to head their rotation. This time around, the Yankees are a 95 win team that fell two games short of a World Series appearance, and has an ace of the staff in place. Lee is clearly the apple of their eye, but this time the motivation to totally sell out to get him is not what it was when they pursued Sabathia.
Caffeine still kicking in …
“The Yankees can use/need SP.
MP-
That’s just posturing on Cash’s part. The Yankees want Lee. They know it and Lee knows it.
But that’s just a part of the dance. The negotiating process.
It’s strategy. That’s the way it has to be.
MP:
I’d agree that Pettitte’s retirement would take the Yankees’ motivation on Lee or someone like him to the next level. But they are much better off than they were in 2008.
It’s little like pretending you’re not crazy wild about a guy or a girl when you know you ARE.
If you show that at the wrong time it can work to your disadvantage.
That’s just human nature.
It’s a pity things sometimes can’t be more straightforward.
08:20 AM ET 11.15 | Cliff Lee’s agent, Darek Braunecker, may not even attend this week’s GM meetings in Orlando. “I am still uncertain of attending GM meetings,” Braunecker said in an e-mail to The Post yesterday. “[I] don’t know [if] it’s necessary in this case.” Lee is the prize of the free agent market. The 32-year-old left-hander figures to land a contract in the same zip code as CC Sabathia’s seven-year, $161 million deal from two years ago. … He is not expected to sign with anyone until the Winter Meetings on Dec. 6-9 at the earliest. “I would categorize it as infancy or at best, initial stages of process,” Braunecker said
That last entry comes compliments of the Post via SI.com.
Mell-
See my posts above.
Mell November 15th, 2010 at 8:44 am
“I’m not so sure that they have that same ability on Lee, because of his age”
They have the same ability. Question is do they have same motivation. When they went after Sabathia, he was a must have.
—————————————————–
I guess I should have been more specific. Tey signed CC at 28 or so. Seven years is not an unreasonable length.
Cliff is 32, right? The length becomes an issue. And as Boras demonstrated to us repeatedly, all you need is one owner. If someone else offers him an extra year, at some point the Yankees will say “take the offer” and walk away.
Tey = They
sheeeesh!!!
Don’t get me wrong here … I WANT to see Lee in pinstripes.
Hmmm, apparently Bill D-ckey’s name doesn’t get through the filter.
Aldo:
I hear you on the age/length thing. Mussina is probably a better comp than Sabathia. I believe Mussina got six years at age 32. He had 4 very good years and 2 (’04 -’05) when he was a below average pitcher. That’s probably a reasonable expectation in this case. I’m sure the Yankees would like to go only 4, but I see 5 as the mimimum and six as a pretty strong liklihood.
I’d imagine Lee’s agent doesn’t see the need to go the GM meetings, since he’s more than likely met with or set up appointments with those teams of interest.
Mell, in the stratosphere Lee is operating in, I see 5 as a reasonable max, jmo. It won’t surprise me if it gets to 6, but to me that’s an expensive roll of the dice.