Neftali Feliz, Buster Posey win Rookie of the Year awards
Posted by: Sam Borden - Posted in Misc on Nov 15, 2010 
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Rangers closer Neftali Feliz won the AL Rookie of the Year award, easily beating out former Yankees prospect (and current Tigers outfielder) Austin Jackson. Feliz, who set the rookie saves record with 40, was named first on 20 of the 28 ballots cast. He’s the third closer to win the award in the past six years.
Giants catcher Buster Posey took the NL award, also getting 20 first-place votes. Braves slugger Jason Heyward was second in the NL with nine first-place votes.
For complete ballots, check out the official web site of the Baseball Writers Association of America right here.
I hope a catcher wins next season as well.
Announce it on Christmas…Birth of a new Savior.
Brox Jeers –
Good post.
Thought Heyward should have got it.
How many votes did Edison Volquez get?
what a budget website for the bbwaa.
I’m taking the call option on Montero winning it in 2011.
Two NL voters had Gaby Sanchez as their #1 and one voter had Jamie Garcia as their #1 on their ballot.
One voter didn’t have Posey on their ballot at all.
The sox only hope of trading for A Gone would be a package of Bucholtz/Ellsbury + and that still might not get er done if Texas gets involved as they could trump that package a team up Hamilton/Cruz/AGone for the next few years and own the AL West….
imagine;
SS Andrus
3B Young
CF Hamilton
RF Cruz
1B AGone
DH Vlad
2B Kinsler
C ?
LF Bourbon
That would be a top 3 lineup in all of baseball….maybe THE best lineup actually
Heyward was left off a ballot as well.
Congrats to both!
Jackson showed that the Yankee system has some good pieces. Kudos to Cashman.
Rumor has it that Detroit may even consider adding Crawford to their OF to join Jackson. They may also be in play for VMart.
good news for the Red Sox!
they now lead the league in Buccholzs:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....ivers.html
LGY November 15th, 2010 at 2:23 pm
Two NL voters had Gaby Sanchez as their #1 and one voter had Jamie Garcia as their #1 on their ballot.
One voter didn’t have Posey on their ballot at all.
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And Joe Dimaggio, Whitey Ford, and Yogi Berra did not make it into the HOF on their first ballot.
Just some random, remotely related trivia.
“Thought Heyward should have got it”
Was sort of thinking the same, but Posey appeared to be a real difference maker for that team. Giants were 62-43 when he started and only 30-27 when he didn’t. He added some much needed offense to that club.
Mell,
Thats not really the purpose of ROY. Heyward had almost the exact same slash line as Posey except that he did it in 200 more PAs…
Posey played half a season compared to Heyward.
Congrats to Posey and Feliz
# Mell November 15th, 2010 at 2:29 pm
“Thought Heyward should have got it”
Was sort of thinking the same, but Posey appeared to be a real difference maker for that team. Giants were 62-43 when he started and only 30-27 when he didn’t. He added some much needed offense to that club.
Do you think Posey would have got it if the Padres didn’t choke?
Man, Buster is making himself one hot commodity. At first when I found out my friend knew him I thought it would be simple to get his autograph. Now he has gone to win the WS and ROY! I’m really hoping she can come through for me.
How about Jose Tabata getting 1 vote. I bet the writer is from Pittsburgh. He did have a sensational second half.
Heyward played a full season but Posey had the bigger impact.
I think the Rangers blockbuster trade this winter could be for Greinke after Lee signs with the Yankees.
Rookie of the Year isn’t about impact, its not ‘Most Valuable Player’, its the best Rookie. Heyward is younger than Posey by 3 years, played the whole season, and had nearly the same rate stats (higher on base, lower avg, similiar slugging which is more impressive because he means he had more power)
I’m not going to complain because the winners had great seasons…but it’s tough to find legitimate reasons to not give Heyward or Feliz the award—especially since the postseason is not factored in.
Tabata got a vote??
Since when are cougar mom/wives allowed to vote for baseball awards???
I can’t find anything wrong with those selections.
Bronx Jeers…Hey man how have you been ???? Heywood carried the load for the Braves especially when Chipper went down….A case of petty theft in my mind……
Jerkface,
He also plays right field….not catcher. The way Posey gelled with that pitching staff was impressive…how he swung the bat was a bonus. I think they gave it to the right guy…..and I love Jason Heyward.
Nick in SF…..I’ll be San Fran on November 26th thru the 30th…I’m staying ( as always ) at the Parc55, maybe we can catch a brew at Lefty’s ?? I have trouble e-maing you for some reason…..
“Tabata got a vote??”
Somewhere Brandon is shedding a single tear.
It’s just a subjective pick by sports writers.
Blake,
Posey played 40 less games than Heyward, and played 30 of his games at 1st base. You’re talking about ROY for a catcher who played 70 games vs a RFer who played 140 games in the field and was a strong defender.
Heyward will make up for the ROY loss in a couple years with an MVP.
Over analyzing stats is not going to qualitatively prove anything. It’s the majority opinion of the writers.
If Brandon kept his word and watched the complete Kate Hudson catalog after we won #27, he has no tears left to shed.
“Posey played half a season compared to Heyward”
Posey did start 105 games compared to Heyward’s 136, and Heyward did have a 180 more PA’s, however I think it came down to who really had the greatest impact. Posey had roughly the same homers and rbi as Heyward did in those 180 fewer PA’s. Further, in a “what have you done for me lately” world, Posey was hitting 8 homers and driving in 15 in September while Heyward went for 2 and 8 over the same period while both were in a race for a playoff spot.
Certainly don’t think Heyward is the wrong answer, but I can understand voters getting behind Posey as well.
“Rookie of the Year isn’t about impact, its not ‘Most Valuable Player’”
Been plenty of times when MVP wasn’t about impact.
Nick in SF November 15th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
If Brandon kept his word and watched the complete Kate Hudson catalog after we won #27, he has no tears left to shed.
*****************************
Jerkface,
Posey had similar cumulative number despite playing 40 less games….and struck out only 55 times in 108 games. I think either would have been a good choice…
Pitchers also pitched around Heyward, his on base with runners in scoring position and men on is crazy compared to Posey.
They both hit around .300 with RISP.
End of the day – Ben Grieve won a ROY – the award means nothing if they can’t perform the following year.
If Heyward is half the player he is reported to be then he’s more jealous about the ring Posey will get than this award.
Heyward walked 3 times as much as Posey, and he was 20!
I think they made a great decision on both. I think that is how we will feel about MVP. Josh Hamilton and Robinson Cano are both deserving of winning it but only one can.
Just looked up A-Rod’s age 20 season.
Dadadadamn.
For me there is only one individual award I care about a Yankee winning and that’s World Series MVP. That award usually goes to a player on the team that wins the World Series.
All this other stuff – MVP, ROY, Cy Young, Gold Gloves are nonsense awards – meaningless today except in contract negotiations and arguments by pompous baseball writers five years after a player retires to determine if he belongs in what should now be called “The Hall of Very Good Players Who Compiled Nice Stats”
Maybe that’s why I don’t care about the things stat heads find important, WAR or VORP or nonsense like that – I care about winning and losing and in most cases I root for the laundry not the player in it.
“Pitchers also pitched around Heyward, his on base with runners in scoring position and men on is crazy compared to Posey.”
That’s a good point. Heyward was walked 40 times over August and September and had a .400+ OBP.
Like I said, no real wrong answer in this case. If Garcia won, that would have been wrong. I see the arguments for both Posey and Heyward. Heyward is Montero’s age and already has a ridiculous command of the strike zone in the bigs. He’s got quite a career ahead of him.
WAR or VORP or nonsense like that
–
You mean those stats which give you an indicator of how important a player is to their team winning baseball games?
I have no real problem with Posey winning, i think they are a good 1/2 on the ballot, but I think the amount of games played has to be considered.
It’d be like Buchholz winning the Cy Young.
Chip….Real nice post earlier……Driving range is calling me….8 & 7 irons today….Getting ready for March as SJ & I square off vs. Randy I & GB7 on the links……
I gonna go out on a limb and say,
Montero will have a better offensive season than Posey did this year his rookie year.
12 of 1 and 6 and 1/2 dozen of the other.
Bronx Jeers…Hey man how have you been ????
——————————————————————–
Pat M, Can’t complain too much how about yourself?
I’ve stayed at the Parc55 a couple of times myself. I like it but that area reminds me too much of Times Square with all the tourists. Now I’m more of a Financial District/SOMA hotel guy.
“Montero will have a better offensive season than Posey did this year his rookie year”
You should be thrilled if he equals it.
I still can’t believe Gaby Sanchez got 2 first place votes.
Yes there is no wrong answer really. Heyward is going to be a monster…maybe starting next year but for a rookie to come in and gain comfort with a pitching staff and have an OPS of. 862, I think that’s pretty good as well.
Sad day for famous troll Austin Jackson, who not only finished with a batting average under .300 but did not win ROY.
Jerkface –
No. I don’t care at all about those stats because as the San Francisco Giants just proved a winning team is often more than the sum of its parts.
# Mell November 15th, 2010 at 3:06 pm
“Montero will have a better offensive season than Posey did this year his rookie year”
You should be thrilled if he equals it.
Of course I will.
I’m just going out on a limb here and saying he will top it.
Jeers….SMOA Hotel ????
The 2010 San Francisco Giants were comprised of players who drive stat heads nuts – Pat Burrell, Aubrey Huff, Juan Uribe, Cody Ross – and yet they are champions today.
Why?
Because there are no sure things in baseball – Statistics are a nice way of attempting to predict possible outcomes but they are far from a sure thing. If you fed the stats of all the players on all the teams into a computer 100 times, maybe once out of that 100 it would have the Giants winning the World Series – but they did it. Why? Because that’s baseball Suzyn…that’s baseball.
Is it just me, or is it incredibly lame that people on here email Sam and Chad about DeJesus, trades and other current things with the Yankees?
If it’s real news, they will report it. I say leave them alone otherwise.
Pat M,
SOMA = South of Market street.
Is it just me, or is it incredibly lame that people on here email Sam and Chad about DeJesus, trades and other current things with the Yankees?
It’s probably lame but not nearly as lame as complaining about what other people choose to email.
No. I don’t care at all about those stats because as the San Francisco Giants just proved a winning team is often more than the sum of its parts.
–
Because as we all know, the Giants were a bunch of nobodies and not one of the strongest bullpens and rotations ever assembled with an offense that was league average which is one of the formulas for success in the MLB.
Something just worth keeping in the back of our minds as we’re entering the silly season – both in terms of holidays and baseball.
A lot of players have recently been told they are out of jobs – I don’t mean guys like Derek Jeter who are free agents – I mean kids who were drafted out of high school or college in the late rounds of the draft – signed for little money and have been riding busses in podunk towns for the last few years.
Many of these players only had one marketable skill – either the ability to throw a ball or hit a ball better than many of the other kids they grew up with. They aren’t going to go on to become broadcasters or professional managers, they’re going home – many of them without a college degree – in their mid to late 20s with no idea of what they’re going to do now.
They’re going home, after having made $20,000 or there abouts per year over the course of the last few years – many with families of their own to worry about. Dream shattered and absolutely nothing to prepare them for a life without baseball.
They are going home in many cases to add to the growing class of rural poor. Kids who picked up a bat and a ball and hoped never to have to go back to the farm are going back.
So when we talk about players who are washed up, players who are busts, players who will never amount to what they promised to be. I just want us to keep in mind that for many players this isn’t about endorsements, this isn’t about flashy cars or the latest bling – this is about putting food on the table and they’re going home this Holiday season without knowing how they’re going to do that.
Chip November 15th, 2010 at 3:14 pm
Is it just me, or is it incredibly lame that people on here email Sam and Chad about DeJesus, trades and other current things with the Yankees?
It’s probably lame but not nearly as lame as complaining about what other people choose to email.
*********
Get off your high horse.
I certainly was not complaining. Simply making an observation based on my astonishment that people do that.
Jerkface November 15th, 2010 at 3:19 pm
No. I don’t care at all about those stats because as the San Francisco Giants just proved a winning team is often more than the sum of its parts.
–
Because as we all know, the Giants were a bunch of nobodies and not one of the strongest bullpens and rotations ever assembled with an offense that was league average which is one of the formulas for success in the MLB.
—————————
If you want to go by the stats – then San Francisco had no business being in the mix for the World Series, certainly offensively.
Keep believing that stats are the be-all and end-all – keep drinking the Kool-Aid, but the bottom line is that even stats can be wrong.
YankeeBlue222 November 15th, 2010 at 3:11 pm
Is it just me, or is it incredibly lame that people on here email Sam and Chad about DeJesus, trades and other current things with the Yankees?
If it’s real news, they will report it. I say leave them alone otherwise.
——————————————–
Dude It’s sad… I say go play Call of Duty Black Ops, hit the gym, go to a bar to pick up chicks. Anything but that. E-mailing about David Dejesus to a beat writer should be a sign of a lull in life. That’s just a waste time.
YankeeBlue222 November 15th, 2010 at 3:23 pm
Chip November 15th, 2010 at 3:14 pm
Is it just me, or is it incredibly lame that people on here email Sam and Chad about DeJesus, trades and other current things with the Yankees?
It’s probably lame but not nearly as lame as complaining about what other people choose to email.
*********
Get off your high horse.
I certainly was not complaining. Simply making an observation based on my astonishment that people do that.
**************
I’m not on a high horse. I was simply making an observation based on my astonishment that people do that as well.
Carl:
That was not meant to be a snipe at you. Apologies if it came off that way.
With regard to Montero, I think we have to be a little careful with expectations for 2011, especially if he does indeed end up doing a lot of catching. He’s going to hit at this level to be sure, but it wouldn’t shock me to see him go thru 45 or games of growing pains at the plate, like he did last year in SWB. Put on top of that the responsibility that comes with being one of the guys expected to regularly catch this rotation. It’s going to be tough. Heyward didn’t bear that responsibility as an outfielder, and Posey was further along in his development as a C than Montero will be, based on is age and experience. If he can scratch out a .280, 15-20 homer, 70-75 RBI, .335/.465/.800 slash, all while refining his game behind the plate, the year will be a monumental success, IMO.
All good Mell.
So what do you guys think about Rick Peterson as pitching coach?
He was just fired.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=channel
Rick Peterson talking AJ, Andy, and CC back in 2009.
If you want to go by the stats – then San Francisco had no business being in the mix for the World Series, certainly offensively.
–
Their pitching alone made them contenders. And the stats backed that up. Their offense had 5 players who were 20% better than league average. The Rangers only had 4 (but their best was better than the Giants best).
Chip:
So when we talk about players who are washed up, players who are busts, players who will never amount to what they promised to be. I just want us to keep in mind that for many players this isn’t about endorsements, this isn’t about flashy cars or the latest bling – this is about putting food on the table and they’re going home this Holiday season without knowing how they’re going to do that.
——————————————-
Very Perceptive Chip. Does put things into perspective when you think about it that way.
So what do you guys think about Rick Peterson as pitching coach?
——————————————————————————————————
Could be a nice complement to Girardi. Like a good cop/bad cop type of thing.
I definitely want my GM assembling teams by drawing names out of a hat, since the stats the players put up do not matter.
Chip – yes that’s the reality of sports.
Every year. Nothing new there. Rural kids. Urba kids. International kids. So few manage to realize the dream. That’s why an education is so important. It’s not a gurarantee for success, but its a pretty good safety net when/if sports opportunities end.
typo…urban kids.
“Is it just me, or is it incredibly lame that people on here email Sam and Chad about DeJesus, trades and other current things with the Yankees? ”
A simple visit to MLBTR will suffice.
Chip – you sound like Scott Boras. And I don’t mean that saracastically, or with any negative connotation.
Some of their stories are heartbreaking.
Jerkface November 15th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
I definitely want my GM assembling teams by drawing names out of a hat, since the stats the players put up do not matter.
————————-
Didn’t say they don’t matter – but they don’t tell the whole story.
Please, find me a stat that would have predicted that Edgar Renteria would have had the kind of series he did.
Find me the stat that would show that Cliff Lee was going to catch not one-but two losses in the World Series.
Find me the stats that tell a whole story without the help of the eyes.
Find me the stats that tell a whole story without the help of the eyes.
–
Find me the eyes who will predict those things, no one will. Thats just the result of watching the game. The point of a GM isn’t to go, “you know what, I think if we make it to game 6 of the world series, Melky Cabrera will hit a pivotal HR, better keep him on the team.” Its to assemble the best collection of talent. And stats are just putting a number on what your eyes see so you’re not relying on a shaky memory to make your decisions.
I could tell the story of Edgar Renteria’s HR with stats, using WPA.
Joe and DaSaint
I don’t know what the failure rate is for late round draft picks, non-drafted players and international free agents is, but when we consider how high the failure rate of “top prospects” the kids who sign for enormous bonuses who don’t amount to anything in the majors (Eric Duncan, Drew Henson) is, it must be staggering.
I will never argue with a kid opting not to sign as a draft pick and instead choosing to use his arm to help him get a college degree at a good school and then going back into the draft because the arm could blow out tomorrow – the education will hopefully serve him for a lifetime.
A kid like Gerrit Cole might be the exception since he was going to get enough money from the Yankees as a first round pick so that if his arm blew out tomorrow he could still afford college, but it’s a long term choice and I respect it.
But these kids – the ones who grew up in abject poverty, were given a taste of a great future and now are back where they started – no wiser, no richer, just older – it must be a crushing feeling like nothing I would ever want to experience in my life.
Chip
same thing happens all the time up my way…except it is hockey
Joe -
Speaking about Boras – I know we as fans give him a lot of flak for trying to get every dime he can – but one thing I’ll never fault him for – when he has a high school client he always encourages that kid to go to college.
Now – the reasons for that may be far from altruistic – he probably figures that there’s no point in a kid signing for 800k out of HS when with a little more experience he can get 10 mil out of college – but the fact is, regardless of his motives, he’s giving these kids the right advice.
I remember in the NBA – a kid named Korleone Young. He was one of the first high school players to declare for the draft. Duke, Kentucky, UNC, UCLA – they all wanted this kid to come play from them but he declared anyway because some agent got in his ear and told him he would be a star.
He sat in that green-room all night long, never heard his name called. Bounced around Europe for a few years until even the European teams wouldn’t pay him – no advanced education, nothing to fall back on…
Kate -
When I have a son, I don’t care how physically gifted he may be…he might be able to dunk, throw 100 mph with his left hand, run through tacklers and skate like the wind – he’s going to college and getting a degree.
Chip,
What exactly is it that you are trying to prove when you go on these anti-stat tangents?
And when you think about it – in baseball – these kids are getting sent home with nothing at the holidays.
It’s just really very sad.
No big surprises here.
LGY November 15th, 2010 at 4:08 pm
Chip,
What exactly is it that you are trying to prove when you go on these anti-stat tangents?
————————–
The only thing I said about stats was that I don’t care about them personally – I care about whether the team I root for wins or loses. That’s the only stat that truly matters to me in the end.
And I’ve seen enough baseball to know that not everything can be predicted based solely on statistical analysis.
I highly doubt that statistical analysis could have predicted the outcome of these playoffs. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with a GM and his team using stats to help them build a winning team, I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with the people who bow at the alter of the alphabet soup that are modern stats – I’m just saying that there is more to this game, more to any game in any sport, than cold numbers. And there’s no statistic that can quantify it.
In short LGY – I’m not trying to “prove” anything. I’m offering an opinion.
there is a reason why ‘old school’ managers/gms are a dying breed… numbers are the way the game is headed. gms/managers are now younger, analytical types and the game is better for it. the brightest front offices in the game… yanks, boston, tampa, etc. are numbers guys…. the new gms hired lately – alderson, towers, hoyer, amaro, jack z, anthopolous, are all numbers guys. plus the beanes, kenny williams, daniels, melvins of the world.
without numbers, cashman might be seduced by carl crawford looking at his HR total and reputation, rather than realizing he is only 1 win better (WAR) than Gardner at 15x the cost….
numbers have enhanced the game. it does not provide any guarantees, but it is much more effective than the ‘eye’ test… especially in the game today with $100 million dollar contracts…
And my original tangent wasn’t that I’m anti-stat – it’s that I don’t give a rat’s hind quarters about individual awards.
Chip-
I was going to yank your chain but I actually love you attitude about
education. I did not want to go to college but my Parents insisted. I’m grateful to this day for the doors it opened.
“your’ not “you”. Proof my education was a failure.
the story here is the uproar when jeter wins an award voted by managers and coaches, but no one cares when hometown writers leave the obvious choice off the list for their crappy hometown selection, like the ones who kept hayward and posey off the ballot. Yes i am calling you our writers in pittsburgh…. and toronto for your ridiculous votes in the HOF last year.
“I’m grateful to this day for the doors it opened.”
————————————————————–
The “doors of perception” ?
If there’s a stat that explains how Edgar Renteria is able to turn into a pillar of black smoke and scan people’s memories, I’d like to see it.
Jeers-
That was another type of education.
How have you been ?
yanks 27 November 15th, 2010 at 4:13 pm
there is a reason why ‘old school’ managers/gms are a dying breed… numbers are the way the game is headed. gms/managers are now younger, analytical types and the game is better for it. the brightest front offices in the game… yanks, boston, tampa, etc. are numbers guys…. the new gms hired lately – alderson, towers, hoyer, amaro, jack z, anthopolous, are all numbers guys. plus the beanes, kenny williams, daniels, melvins of the world.
without numbers, cashman might be seduced by carl crawford looking at his HR total and reputation, rather than realizing he is only 1 win better (WAR) than Gardner at 15x the cost….
numbers have enhanced the game. it does not provide any guarantees, but it is much more effective than the ‘eye’ test… especially in the game today with $100 million dollar contracts…
——————————————
Well a big part of the reason that old-school managers are a dying breed is because GMs want more control of what’s going on during the game. A guy like Billy Beane doesn’t want his manager to think – he wants him to execute.
Why didn’t Cashman want Torre here anymore – it wasn’t the contract, it wasn’t the credit – those were ownership issues. Cashman didn’t support Torre at the end because Brian wanted a manager he could tell “this is how I want you to use Joba and Hughes” and know that the manager was going to execute that order regardless of whether it cost the team on the field. Do you think Joe Torre or Lou Pinella or Bobby Cox would have ever put up with that nonsense about having Joba start a game and then leave after two or three innings?
As for Crawford only being 1 win better than Gardner – sure, last year that may have been true – but will it be true next year? Will it be true two years from now? I don’t know – Crawford’s been consistant over a long period of time, Gardner had a good season. If Gardner turns into Ben Grieve next year then it will look like a mistake not signing Crawford. If Crawford has the same issues with trying to live up to his contract that Vernon Wells had then signing him would be a mistake – but there’s no stat that’s going to predict that for you.
The people who picked Texas to beat SF were the ones using their eyes… Texas has higher profile names on their offense and they beat up the Yankees pitchers, they have the unbeatable Cliff Lee, and they have “mojo” because they have so much fun in the clubhouse with the antlers and deers.
If people listened to the experts, that was the analysis that was being applied. Obviously it wasn’t based on advanced stats.
MTU -
Same here.
In high school I got some offers to play serious college football at some not so serious colleges – my parents convinced me that it was better to go to a school with good academics than a great BCS ranking.
First practice of the spring of my freshman year – blew out the ACL in my right knee, first day back – blew out the MCL in my left knee…I still have my degree though and I’m thankful everyday that it’s worth more than the paper it’s printed on.
Having said that – I still wish I had given greater consideration to University of Tahiti
Chip-
I heard it’s a Bora Bora school. No real fun anyway. Climate sucks.
Too far south.
U of hawaii would work.
Catch you all later. got to run.
I’d really love to know if people really email Chad & Sam about Dejesus, Soria and Greinke or are they just using the posts people put up in here and calling them emails?
If they are counting posts it’s one thing. If people are emailing writers about fantasy trades it’s beyond ludicrous.
I just can’t imagine people emailing them about that. I’m hoping they are just counting posts because there are days on here where Bret posted 40 times about KC players he wanted.
MTU,
I can’t complain how are things in the GZ?
“I’m just saying that there is more to this game, more to any game in any sport, than cold numbers. And there’s no statistic that can quantify it.”
———————————————————
Chip,
There is no one on the other end arguing against that point.
Jeers-
Sunny and 60 degrees. I got to run. I’ll try to catch up with you later.
It’s good to see you around.
“A guy like Billy Beane doesn’t want his manager to think – he wants him to execute.”
This is the exact opposite of what guys like Cashman want their managers to do. Cashman said it would be very irresponsible for Girardi to go off of “gut feelings.” He wants Girardi to think and analyze every decision he makes.
“Why didn’t Cashman want Torre here anymore – it wasn’t the contract, it wasn’t the credit – those were ownership issues. Cashman didn’t support Torre at the end because Brian wanted a manager he could tell “this is how I want you to use Joba and Hughes” and know that the manager was going to execute that order regardless of whether it cost the team on the field.”
Or alternatively, Cashman didn’t want Torre here anymore because he was an awful manager that wasn’t applying the same desire to the job the last few years he was around.
“Do you think Joe Torre or Lou Pinella or Bobby Cox would have ever put up with that nonsense about having Joba start a game and then leave after two or three innings?”
Joe Torre did put up with it.
The original ‘Joba Rules’ were instituted with Torre at the helm.
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