The other one of a kind
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Nov 27, 2010 
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Last night, the good people over at MLBTradeRumors — and for those who read other Yankees blogs, you’ll recognize the byline — broke down the free agency of Mariano Rivera. They examined three things: The good (Rivera’s track record), the bad (his age) and where he’s likely to end up (back in New York).
Here are three other things to consider about Rivera: Three reasons he’s not getting nearly the publicity of Derek Jeter.
Rivera is also a sure Hall of Famer, with no obvious replacement, who’s stuck in free agency limbo. But front office types aren’t going on the record about him every other day. Salary predictions aren’t floated in every publication. There is no sense of trepidation, uncertainly or confrontation. It’s simply not as big of a story for three reasons.
What have you done for me lately?
One season. That might be the biggest difference between Jeter’s offseason and Rivera’s. Had Jeter hit the open market in 2009, after his near MVP season, there would be a lot less hesitation about his next contract. Rivera is about to turn 41 years old, and at some point he won’t be able to do what he does, but there’s still a lot of comfort in that 1.80 ERA. His velocity is diminishing, and he has some aches and pains, but Rivera was still able to get it done in 2010. He might be older, but it’s easier to feel confident about Rivera in 2011 than it is to feel confident about Jeter.
It’s the years, not the money
This season, $21 million was a lot to pay for a 36-year-old shortstop, but $15 million was a fortune for a 40-year-old closer. This winter, Rivera seems likely to get less money than Jeter, but both are going to be paid a lot. The money difference isn’t the issue. To me, it’s the fact Rivera is reportedly looking for a two-year deal. That’s what makes his contract so much easier to deal with. Even if the Yankees can’t go year-to-year with Rivera, a two-year commitment seems significantly smaller than three or four years for Jeter. That’s true even though Rivera is a full four and a half years older.
Let’s face it, there’s only one Derek Jeter
Rivera is the greatest relief pitcher of all time. He’s a singular player in the history of the sport, but he’s not Jeter. He’s just not. He’s not on TV every day. He’s not on every magazine cover. He hasn’t been the face of the franchise for more than a decade. As great as Rivera has been — and despite the fact statistics say he should be lumped with Jeter — he just doesn’t create the same fascination. Can you imagine if, at the GM Meetings, Randy Levine had said he wasn’t sure what was going on with Jeter? Impossible. But when Levine said it about Rivera, everyone moved on. He might not be a lesser player, but Rivera is a lesser celebrity.
It will be interesting to see how Randy blames Cashman on Rivera’s contract now.
Think of it this way.
Jeter is like a foundation stone.
Mo like a capstone.
Both essential. They just serve different purposes.
Looks like Jeter/Close are losing the public relations battle.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports.....8;FEEDNAME=
That is the most unfortunate thing about this whole Jeter thing.
That it was not kept behind closed doors.
Derek may be the face but Mariano is the soul.
Nothing lesser about that.
Mo doesn’t have to deal with the digging of the other baseball stars about taking a paycut at all the lavish Nike-sponsored affairs he doesn’t attend. As the face of baseball – and the baseball union – Jeter has to fight this fight for the other greedy players that come after him. He’s and ambassador for greed like all the other aging great players that have come before him and have made going to games on a regular basis financially impossible for the average fan. Mariano is above all of this and will take what is fair.
Instead of it being handled with the delicacy and finesse of a surgeon that it requires it has been handled like demolition derby.
Rivera > Jeter
It’s not even close.
Very interesting read on why Jeter isn’t even worth 3 years/45 million:
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/s.....king-jeter
Mariano is probably the best athlete on the team. If he had to play SS he probably could(I think he did at one time in the minors?). However, if Derek had to pitch, well, that would be a sad story I think! LOL!! Mo should just be given what he’s asked for, he is not unreasonable. Derek and the Yanks need to get together face to face and get this thing settled. At this point they are both hurting each other.
Rivera > Jeter
It’s not even close.
__
I think that’s true as you evaluate what they appear to have left, and that’s all that should matter in determining their contractual worth, but over their careers, if I was forced to choose, I would have taken Jeter or any other top position player, because they are more important in the regular season, and you need to be successful in the regular season before you can get to the playoffs.
Here is a different angle on the Jeter negotiations:pure speculation. Maybe he is trying to set a new market. Right now the guys who hit the bombs and get the strikeouts get the big bucks. How about the guys who do everything right, stay healthy, and play consistantly good baseball at premium positions. Not flashy. Just help lead a clubhouse and a team. Just help the team win without the bombs and huge RBI totals. The guys who get on base, get into scoring position and score runs when the big bombers are racking up RBIs headed for another big payday. I’m not advocating 23/24 mill but to start there is an eye opener and a statement. I just don’t like seeing Jeter labled as a greedy now mercenary type. Maybe he is but hopefully there is more too it.
From the article I enclosed above at 9:29
The website Baseball-Reference.com searches its enormous database to match players at similar stages of their career, and from age 29-31, Jeter compared most obviously to Alan Trammell. From age 32-36, Jeter compared to Roberto Alomar.
Both of those guys, Trammell and Alomar, hit the wall at age 36. And I’m not cherry-picking through that website to find two guys who slumped at age 36. Those are the two players — the first two players — provided by Baseball-Reference.com as comparisons to Jeter. See for yourself.
Alomar retired at age 36, when his numbers were almost identical to Jeter’s: a .263 batting average and a .713 OPS.
Trammell, who like Jeter had a fabulous season at age 35 — hit .329 with an .885 OPS — fell to a Jeter-like .267 and .722 at age 36. At age 38, Trammell had retired.
Fortunately for us we don’t have to choose. They are both Yankees.
Their respective careers share many common threads.
Both models of consistency.
Both winners.
Both future HOF’ers.
JD
15 million for should be enough for all the stuff you typed.
See that’s the point. It’s reasonable and fair to give Jeter $15m for one season, but the Yankee are taking a huge risk by offering Jeter $15m for more than one season given those historical comparisons. Yet if the reports of Jeter’s demands are accurate, he is unwilling or unable to understand that.
Carl- Thatls exactly it 15 should as things stand now. But what if Jeter looks around and says why are DH’s and pitchers who only play 32 games a year when they aren’t oft injured getting so much or much more than the guys who play every game at high levels and premium positions.
Rivera is a proud man. He’s likely to add another pitch to his cutter and two-seamer to ensure that he goes out at the top of his game.
Jeter being an every day position player, will see his skills erode quicker as he advances in age. It’s why a 3-year deal will serve him better for both himself and the team.
He would otherwise be forever viewed as just another player that hung around too long because of money.
“See that’s the point. It’s reasonable and fair to give Jeter $15m for one season, but the Yankee are taking a huge risk by offering Jeter $15m for more than one season given those historical comparisons. Yet if the reports of Jeter’s demands are accurate, he is unwilling or unable to understand that.”
Or that he’s still trying to negotiate more money which is what I would do if I was in his place. However, if he continues to do so come Christmas time then I would totally agree with your last sentence since he prolonged the negotiating process so long.
“George Weiss, Fred Haney, Ralph Houk and Lee McPhail”
gb7-
we already knew you were the exception to the rule (and that’s an understatement).
but seriously,with the exception of houk, who cares about those guys?
is anyone a yankee fan because of them?
players like jeter and rivera create lifetime fans.
I haven’t forgotten who spoke for the organization and said the right words when they closed the old stadium, when Steinbrenner passed away, who has never had a sniff of controversy in 15 + years with the NY media, who was one of the greatest players of the steroid era despite not using steroids, who told the president to throw from the rubber after 9/11 because they would boo him if h didn’t, and who is going to be a first ballot HOFer and the first Yankee to reach 3,000 hits.
Its gotten messy, Jeter is getting older, and the Yankees are right to hold their ground but Im not going to let anything that happens this winter make me forget how well he has done things in his career…..in the end he will be back to add to that list.
I don’t think Rivera will add a pitch. His success is a function of his impeccable command even with the decline in velo. If/when that goes (and it may never), he will retire.
Blake -
I agree 100% with your sentiment and feel the same way.
Blake-
I think you just contradicted yourself in that last post.
If jeter is all of those things how do you square that with the Yankees “holding their ground”.
Just sayin’
“Or that he’s still trying to negotiate more money which is what I would do if I was in his place. However, if he continues to do so come Christmas time then I would totally agree with your last sentence since he prolonged the negotiating process so long.”
TBH, if I had made the money Jeter has made, and really believed in my ability to return to playing at a high level, I would hope that I would have the stones to play for a one year contract to prove that I have more left than it now appears.
If, in my gut, I thought I might be in decline, then yes, I might do what Jeter is doing.
I agree with you Blake.
Jeter is a businessman and he’s trying to conclude a business deal with the Yankees. I see nothing wrong with that at this moment.
I think it is time for Jeter and Close, and Cashman and Hal Steinbrennner to sit down and discuss this as 4 adults; They should come a conclusion instead of all these leaks that are embarrassing to both Jeter and the Yankees. It should be down behind closed doors.
They can either come to a decision then or at least know whether they will be able to meet in the middle. They can also decide how important it is for Jeter to finish his career as a Yankee.
Until that time the Jeter camp is hurting the Yankees and vice versa. Nothing else should come out through the media.
Rich,
What you hope to do and what you would actually do might be something else.
MTU,
I just mean the Yankees are right to not.give him a blank check…..and I meant that none of this stuff that goes on this winter will change how I feel about him.
Actually, no. Weiss may have actually cost the Yankees up to 5 more WS because of his racist views of black players. He refused to sign Mays, Arron and Banks, dispite the recommendations of Tom Greenwade (signed Mantle, Ralph Terry. Murcer and many others).
I just wanted to be a smartass.
It seems that neither side wants to be the one that blinks. If these were women, this whole thing would have been resolved by now.
Crawdaddy
Maybe, maybe not.
randy l. November 27th, 2010 at 9:50 am
“George Weiss, Fred Haney, Ralph Houk and Lee McPhail”
gb7-
we already knew you were the exception to the rule (and that’s an understatement).
but seriously,with the exception of houk, who cares about those guys?
is anyone a yankee fan because of them?
players like jeter and rivera create lifetime fans.
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Actually, no. Weiss may have actually cost the Yankees up to 5 more WS because of his racist views of black players. He refused to sign Mays, Arron and Banks, dispite the recommendations of Tom Greenwade (signed Mantle, Ralph Terry. Murcer and many others).
I just wanted to be a smartass.
Blake-
Thanks for clarifying that. I don’t think he deserves a “blank” check either and I don’t think that’s what he’s looking for.
And I’m also glad to hear your opinion of Jeter won’t change based on this negotiation.
I was a little worried because I was thinking that something had gone wrong with the other half of my brain.
FWIW I would probably be doing exactly what Jeter is right now…..I would let my agent do his job and try to get me the best deal possible. At some point I would call him off and make a deal and I believe thats what Jeter will do when he’s ready.
randy l -
The only thing I would say is that they Yankees as an organization have survived all the messes in its history.
I think both sides are approaching this from a different vantage point – different chapters in the same book, but they can still come to the same page eventually.
Jeter has value to the Yankees beyond on-field performance. But it’s a lot more difficult to quantify that. It’s safer for the organization to quantify the on-field and then tack on a bonus of sorts. I do think they’ll budge on the money, but the years – not so much. They Yankees HAVE TO look at on-field performance, because they expect to put a WS contender on the field every year. It’s difficult to project Jeter’s performance at this point in his career.
I admit to being a bit “baffled” myself that the Yankees did not have a Jeter piggy bank over the years into which they’d throw a million or two extra in preparation for this day. It’s not like this could have taken them by surprise. And it can’t come as a surprise that Jeter and his agent would want to put a money number on his value to the team beyond performance.
But I can’t say the Yankees are being cheap here, or disrespectful. They’re trying to be practical and it’s more complicated than that.
# GreenBeret7 November 27th, 2010 at 9:59 am
Actually, no. Weiss may have actually cost the Yankees up to 5 more WS because of his racist views of black players. He refused to sign Mays, Arron and Banks, dispite the recommendations of Tom Greenwade (signed Mantle, Ralph Terry. Murcer and many others).
I just wanted to be a smartass.
Mays in Center. Mantle in left. Aaron in right.
Thank you racism!
Laura-
You’re right ! With a knock down drag out Cat fight.
“I just wanted to be a smartass.”
gb7-
no kidding, and you did a damn good job of it i might add.
… but you gotta go with what your gifted at
Laura – I Bleed Blue November 27th, 2010 at 10:00 am
It seems that neither side wants to be the one that blinks. If these were women, this whole thing would have been resolved by now.
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Nobody is going to pack a stadium to watch a bunch of women cackle, swap recipes and show pictures of their kids.
Sorry, Laura..it’s just one of those days and something came over me.
“Crawdaddy
Maybe, maybe not.”
Rich,
I agreed!
My point is that at this time in his career, Jeter or any player are businessmen first and foremost and they are trying to negotiate the best deal possible which is what good businessmen do in such cases.
andy l. November 27th, 2010 at 10:05 am
“I just wanted to be a smartass.”
gb7-
no kidding, and you did a damn good job of it i might add.
… but you gotta go with what your gifted at
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It’s a gift from the gods.
This whole Jeter Thing is like The Real Housewives of River Avenue: Endlessly fascinating if you like slowing down to look at accidents on the side of the road. I’ve certainly had my say enough times about this nonsense. But like I swore off counting A-Rod’s flaws a while back, (the number just got too high) I’m ignoring this too from now on. I’ve reached stage 5. (Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance).
WHEREFORE, I hereby consign all concern over the Jeter Thing to irrelevance with baseball cliche #476: “It is what it is…. “
morning person-
all the yankees have to do is give jeter a personal services contract in addition to the baseball contract and the issue is resolved .
the fact they don’t shows what present management thinks of players.
as randy levine said,” he’s only a player”.
Now here’s a memorable former member of the Yankees Brass:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._Michael_Burke
There just aren’t people like that anymore. Except maybe for GB7 and randy l.
GB-
The God of Snark ?
GB 7 you are absolutely right. If Weiss wasn’t such a bigot the Yanks could have had an outfield of Mantle, Mays and Aaron through most of the 50s and 60s.
I think a lot of people are making a mistake in thinking $ 15 M a year for Jeter the player is the offer and I don’t think it is. He’s getting about $ 10 M for the player and $ 5 M for the icon. Guaranteeing three years at this stage is also an homage to his status in the organization
Look at the history of every day shortstops in their mid/late 30s. It’s not a pretty sight. Great example above regarding Trammel. Cal Ripken Jr finally stopped playing SS at age 35.
I’m sure Jeter and his camp see the $ 15 M as an insulting pay cut. The bottom line is at his BEST Derek Jeter is not a $ 20 M plus player and he’ll never again be at his best.
Very funny, GB. What I said is true. Women are real big on talking things through. We abhor conflict so we usually try to end it as soon as possible…unless the Bravo network is paying us. :p
randy
“all the yankees have to do is give jeter a personal services contract in addition to the baseball contract and the issue is resolved”
Does Mo get one too? How about Bernie and Pettitte?
They have all been similarly great Yankees.
Randy-
Actually GB is “Snarkenstein”.
He’s been brought back from the dead several times and is put together with parts from old ballplayers.
randy l -
I don’t understand why they don’t do that either. It seems like a simple way to put an end to this. Have they ever done one before?
Maybe they’re holding that as the last resort?
I get that no player is bigger than the organization, but surely some transcend just a little bit? Seems the Yankees would get this, what with Monument Park, retired numbers, Old Timers Day, the Yankeeography series, etc.
(I wish Randy Levine would be banished. Every time he opens his mouth, he sounds like an idiot.)
Randy l -
Maybe they don’t want to do a personal services contract until he actually retires. Just a thought.
MP-
“Every time he opens his mouth, he sounds like an idiot.”
Aristotle said that a thing can only be what it is.
as randy levine said,? he?s only a player?.
Find me the quote where Levine said “only a player” and I’ll donate $20 to your favorite charity.
Perhaps Jeter doesn’t want a personal service agreement because he wants to own a team one day.
‘Does Mo get one too? How about Bernie and Pettitte?
They have all been similarly great Yankees. ‘
rich in nj-
now you’re thinking.
excellent idea.
Maybe he doesn’t want a personal service contract.
“Sounds like an idiot” was too strong – what he does, it seems, is make matters worse no matter what he says.
Perhaps Jeter would be insulted by a personal services contract now because he still thinks of himself as a player and not a monument.
OK, randy, as long as Jeter’s contributions are viewed in context, I’m down.
For every possible solution, more potential problems pop up, don’t they?
crawdaddy & JD – that crossed my mind as well – Jeter may not want a PS contract.
I’m all for offering Jeter a 3 year deal with a mutual option with a base salary of $16 mil-$16.5 mil with target incentive. The targets are enough to bring they salaries for each year up to the $19 mil level with additional bonuses for 2,000 runs, 3,000 hits and 300 homers. Based on much like Rodriguez’ target bonuses.
He’s 27th in runs scored, 36th in hits and needs 66 homers to reach 300. Additional incentives are Gold Gloves, silver bats and MVP awards for 1st, 2nd and 3 places.
$150,000 for each name passed in runs scored and hits. The target bonuses are not to set the next season’s salary. They start over.
The trophy awards are $75,000 for first place. 2nd in MVP is $50,000 and 3rd is $25,000.
Not sure that you can award bonuses for team finishes.
The most that Jeter can get in bonuses are probably about $3 or on an MVP season, $4 mil a season based on his career averages.
Just a better idea than haggling over what they’re doing now….nothing.
MP-
It wasn’t too srong at all. Just right actually.
My own PURE SPECULATION: Hal’s initial public statements (“it could get messy”) and Cash’s statements (“see what’s out there”) have been preemptive. What else would any owner or GM do if an agent demanded 4-5 times more salary than what a popular player is worth, and implied or stated that refusing and taking a hard line stance would play out as unpopular with the fans? Jeter’s reps certainly can’t use his 2010 performance and projected performance as leverage.
GB-
That’s the answer. Send it in. Please.
The Yankees owe Derek Jeter nothing. Not a personal services contract, not a salary offer.
Nothing.
Yet they have chosen to offer a past his prime player the most money of any middle-infielder and the highest salary by any ML SS by nearly 40%.
Derek Jeter needs to be reminded that he is FA. He owes the Yankees and their fans nothing too. What an opportunity, he can take his bat and glove and see what that gets him in the marketplace, see if it gets him above the 3/45 offer the Yankees graciously offered. Thats the priveledge of being a FA.
To this point, where are those offers? Casey Close let’s hear about the teams hot on the trail of wanting to pay a 36 year old SS, $45m over 3 years,, and that despite no risk of losing any draft picks because the Yankees did not offer him arbitration.
He’s a HOF player, career BA > .300, GG winner, 5 rings. Within 2 months of 3000 hits.. one of the most marketable names in BB… Come on where are the rest of the 31 ML teams with their offers for this HOF player??
If Jeter had a market like that we would hear about it non-stop. It is obvious he doesn’t and he is hoping the Yankees cave.
The Yankees will not cave and unless Jeter comes back to earth he will have played his last game as a Yankee.
Doubt that all happens but I don’t see the Yankees budging any if at all unless some team pops up and becomes Jeter’s friend in time of need.
Or maybe he sees contracts like ARods’, AJ’s and even CC’s that are too long and by the end they will be less effective, possibly hurt , or just not playing much and still getting paid big bucks. Either way not being worth the money they would still be getting paid. Why not him? His arm isn’t gonna fall off. He doesn’t have a bad hip. These negotiations show the folly of these recent and past ridiculous contracts being handed out. Not just by the Yankees either.
Laura – I Bleed Blue November 27th, 2010 at 10:13 am
Very funny, GB. What I said is true. Women are real big on talking things through. We abhor conflict so we usually try to end it as soon as possible…unless the Bravo network is paying us. :p
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Funny that you said that, Laura. I’m watching “Deadly Women” and just watched “Women Who Kill”. What were you saying about abhorring conflict, level headed women and their ability to negotiate? I will agree about the women being big on talking, though.
LMAO. just trying to add some levity to the morning board.
Better a “Smartass” than a dumbass. We all know GB ain’t dumb.
Good morning all.
MTU -
You back from the PO yet?
NOTE: I’m basing the “4-5 times more” on what I speculate that he would get offered by another team, NOT what the Yankees have offered.
Al-
They like to open when they want to out this way.
Time for some Pupdemonium and then I’ll give it a try.
Hate to wake them from their slumber.
Here is ESPN’s poll results on Jeter.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn.....lId=102392
Ok if the Yankees owe Jeter nothing then he owes them nothing and has every right to try for every last dime he can get…..this process works much better if each side takes into account what they mean to the other. When they realize that, the deal will get done.
I buy into what GB-7 says about target incentives for Jeter. It makes sense from the standpoint of both sides.
Lost in everything is how much he’s made in full shares of playoff and World Series money along with his commercial endorsements. He never would have made that money elsewhere and it hasn’t stopped unless he goes elsewhere which would be ridiculous.
blake, NYY has taken into account what Jeter means to him, hence the over-market deal he’s been offered. It is Jeter’s camp that has to this point, failed to take into account what NYY means to Jeter. That is what is holding up the deal.
Poor Mo.
Even in a thread specifically geared toward him, the convo is still Jeter.
yankee21,
That may be true but he and his agent have the right to try to get what they can and the fact that it’s been so public probably isn’t helping move things along. If your boss asked you to take a significant paycut because he felt your value had decreased, would you immediately accept….?
Rivera is a little more difficult to tie into target bonuses. He’s still a year and a couple of months from reaching 600 saves and not likely to pass Hoffmann unless Hoffmann retires at the end of 2011. He’s the best at what he does, but few fans count down targets for relievers like the do hittersm and even rotation starters.
blake -
Can’t use that argument. For most people, you take a pay cut or you get laid off/fired and it’s a devastating event. Jeter does not suffer anywhere near the same consequences.
Morning,
Of course not, but its a pride issue with a HOF athlete…..you don’t get to be that good by doubting your ability.
Re: the CBS article that was dropped here, the writer is a National Writer with absolutely no finger on the pulse of NY Sports. Him saying Lupica is a waterboy for Jeter is all you need to know about that guy’s credentials and his take, which is way off base. Lupica hates the Yankees and there is no love lost for any player in Pinstripes. If the Yankees thought Jeter was done they wouldn’t have offered him 3 yr’s, and it’s ridiculous to ask him to find a better offer, he’s a special case and he’s not going to get paid based on his baseball stats, never has, never will, and they know it, it was a weasel move. If his intrinsic value means nothing to the Franchise, why do they want him in the mix for 3 yr’s then? They can find a better sabermetric SS for a third of the price. I wonder how many Scturao and Uribe Jersey’s get sold.? And how many casual fans that show up in $500/$1200 seats that only care about brand names will still buy the ticket with out their Captain in the middle? Yankees going to the press and lowering Jeter’s value was pure idiocy on their part. The Steinbrenners want to pay Jeter like a ballplayer but they want to sell him like an icon. Perhaps Hal, Hank, Cashman, and Levine want to be the face of the Franchise, that’s a face only a mother could love IMO.
And there’s only one Rivera………..he’s one of a kind. He’s the coolest, calmest athlete I’ve ever come across.
The Yankees need to just give him the 2 years without even thinking about it. Mo knows himself and if he thinks he has 2 years in him at a high level, then he has 2 years. If he doesn’t and he starts to struggle, I believe he will walk away.
People just assume that Jeter should just say….ah im.getting old and had a bad year I deserve less money. That’s not how these guys minds work…im sure he fully expects to come back and perform to his career norms next year and the thought that others think he wont may be hard for him to.warm to.
the way baseball players are paid for what they do is kind of odd and random when you think about it.
in how many industries are the employees paid more than management ?
i don’t know anything about the attorney world except what i see on tv, but if i’m not mistaken the really good layers become partners in firms and don’t just get paid for their peak “all star” years. they help build a firm and they become partners.
i don’t see why baseball couldn’t do a similar thing. players like jeter, pettitte, rivera, and posada do become partners in the yankee “firm ” in that way.
the intangible thing that makes a yankee a yankee would get passed on much better in this way with former players having some say in future direction.
it’s of course not going to happen, but the present system of looking at players as just employees when really they are the star of the game is kind of “baffling” to use the word of the week.
blake -
That’s true, but find a different comparison. The average Joe doesn’t really negotiate his salary. And even people who have been very valuable to the success of the company they work for have been known to be put to pasture, so to speak, because they can be replaced more cheaply. They take a pay cut, or they take a demotion, to stay employed (for benefits, usually). And once you hit a certain age, it is more difficult to find employment. Not a problem if you have millions in the bank. But definitely a problem for most people. Most people can’t afford to let their pride get in the way.
Sports/entertainment is a different animal altogether.
The Yankees need to just give him the 2 years without even thinking about it. Mo knows himself and if he thinks he has 2 years in him at a high level, then he has 2 years. If he doesn’t and he starts to struggle, I believe he will walk away.
___
Definitely think 2 years shouldnt even be an issue and that Mo will not just hang on, he will leave if he can’t be Mo anymore.
Betsy, you can say the same thing about Jeter. He’s not the money grubber that most everyone is trying to paint him to be. If Jeter isn’t performing to his standards after next season, he too, could walk away. He has the same pride as Rivera and he is a one of a kind shortstop.
One thing about money is that never know how people will react to it….whether they’ll walk away or hang on until the last dog is hung. I can only remember one superstar walking out in the middle of a contract…Mike Schmidt.
Betsy, you can say the same thing about Jeter. He’s not the money grubber that most everyone is trying to paint him to be. If Jeter isn’t performing to his standards after next season, he too, could walk away. He has the same pride as Rivera and he is a one of a kind shortstop.
__
You CAN say it, but the difference is that Mo hasn’t shown a decline where Jeter struggled all year after April.
Why don’t some people understand that just because some of us side with the Yankees here that it doesn’t mean that we don’t love Jeter or that we don’t appreciate what he’s done for us?
If the $23/24 million per 4/5 years is true, then Jeter and Close are being unreasonable and unrealistic. No team will come close to matching what they’re asking…….and, in fact, I think, that their demands would turn whatever teams would be interested in him pretty much off. I mean, any team looking to sign Jeter is probably looking to take advantage of his anger at the Yankees, but at this price? They’ll go elsewhere. At this point, if I’m the Yankees, I hold my ground.
As to Lee, what is Cash supposed to do? He’s not taking offers. I’m sure the Yankees have discussed a potential offer, so I think once Lee gives the go ahead, they will have something out there in short order.
randy l -
I could be wrong, but I always thought that you’re not just “made” a partner – you have to invest in the partnership as well.
Is Jeter any different than any other Yankee hitter outside of Cano and Swisher. He’s not entitled to one off season in 15 years? Not entitled to prove it was a fluke season? Where would the Yankees have been if they had junked Pettitte after the 2008 season? They’d be short 1 WS title to start with and probably missed the post season in 2010.
Yankee Trader, that article is way too harsh. I agree with the general points, but the writer just comes off as obnoxious……….and I don’t think he’s done just yet.
I think that ESPN poll says it all, as to how fans are looking at the Jeter contract negotiations.
Blake, the Yankees have already taken that into account by their very fair and generous offer.
I mean, any team looking to sign ***Jeter is probably looking to take advantage of his anger at the Yankees,*** but at this price?
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Good God…you’re really reaching on this one, aren’t you?
Betsy,
Its a fair offer….I never said otherwise.
Are you really proposing to pay your HOF closer more than your HOF shortstop?
Color it any way you want but closers are not more important than front line shortstops in the regular season.
If the best SS in MLB is earning $12.5M, how can anyone believe an offer of $15M/3 years is an insult, or under-paying of Jeter for years going forward, and consideration of past years taken into consideration as well.
I’ve said it before, I love Jeter as a player, but, if he holds onto the belief he’s still worth $23-$24M a year, for over 3 years, he should start shopping the open market, and close the Yankee door behind him.
Only the idiots in the media are tossing out the $23-$24 mil a year BS.
GB, I do not put it past Jeter to walk away…………..I agree. However, I still wouldn’t give him 4 years because he might not. I don’t think this is about Jeter being a money grubber. I think this is about Jeter being a prideful and ultra-competitive athlete. I think it’s about Jeter being extremely confident in his abilities – he and Mo are a lot alike in that way.
Blake, once this gets resolved, I won’t even think about it. This won’t change my mind about Jeter at all.
Excuse me, GB?
Um, no…….I’m not. You think it’s reaching that teams that might be interested in him would be hoping he just is angry enough to leave the Yankees? If so, then I just don’t get it……………but I’m not going to try.
“it’s of course not going to happen, but the present system of looking at players as just employees when really they are the star of the game is kind of “baffling” to use the word of the week.”
So free agency isn’t good enough? Do you have God handy to tell the owners how much of their enterprise to give away?
I believe that after all is said and done, the Yankees will hold firm on the 3 years, but, most likely will up their offer to be closer to $18M/
LOL I want to know who is trying to toss Jeter aside? The Yankees offered him 3/45………..that’s junking? Pretty hilarious. Just as Jeter is entitled to have a chance to prove everyone wrong, the Yankees are entitled to not offer him the world. He’s aging and he’s coming off a bad year – it’s HARDLY unreasonable to think he’s in decline. Personally I don’t think he is and I don’t think he’s done, but I have how long that bounce in his bounceback would last.
Blake, you said that both parties have to show a willingness to admit how much they’ve done for each other. The Yankees have already done that with their offer; Close ? Not so much.
Betsy,
Other teams may be interested in Jeter but not at the price the Yankees are offering and certainly not at the price he’s asking. If Jeter leaves he’s going to take a lot less to do so.
“I think a lot of people are making a mistake in thinking $ 15 M a year for Jeter the player is the offer and I don’t think it is. He’s getting about $ 10 M for the player and $ 5 M for the icon. Guaranteeing three years at this stage is also an homage to his status in the organization
Look at the history of every day shortstops in their mid/late 30s. It’s not a pretty sight. Great example above regarding Trammel. Cal Ripken Jr finally stopped playing SS at age 35.
I’m sure Jeter and his camp see the $ 15 M as an insulting pay cut. The bottom line is at his BEST Derek Jeter is not a $ 20 M plus player and he’ll never again be at his best.”
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Perhaps the Yankees are afraid of history repeating itself, as it has a tendency to do. The only ones that don’t believe their talent is winding down, are the players. People tend to have more faith in their own abilities, than reality dictates.
Chip, that was my point…………
Betsy,
We really don’t know what’s been.said behind closed doors….all we know is what the media is reporting and there has been pretty wide variation there.
By the way if the Yankees were being disrespectful they would’ve offered Derek market value for a 36yr old or when Close came back with that ridiculous counter, they would’ve taken the offer off the table and moved on Crawford.
The Yankees want Derek back but Cash is not willing to make the same mistake he made with Jorge’s last contract.
So free agency isn’t good enough? Do you have God handy to tell the owners how much of their enterprise to give away?
what kind of free market concept is “free agency”?
you’re a slave for a while until you’re allowed to go be”free” ?
very cutting edge concept.
Chip -
I believe you’re right. The big mistake was the Yankees caving into Posada’s demand for a 4th year. There is no way he leaves the Yankees, and his team mates for 1 extra year. They should have held the line, and Jorge would be done now. If Posada does not hit well at DH, does Girardi have what it takes to sit him, and would the Yankees make a move to get a full time, power hitting, DH?
Trammell’s and Ripken’s seasons keep get thrown out there as down turns of shortstops at Jeter’s age, but, you ignore the seasons at and after that of shortstops Omar Vizquel and Ozzie Smith. Those two didn’t have the same offensive skills as Jeter, but, the point being that they were still in line with their career numbers.
randy-
You’re too smart not to realize that comment makes no sense in context. Derek Jeter is a free agent in the fullest sense of the word.
thank g-d jeter is being reasonable and lowering his offer to $21 mill a year for 5 years. WOW.
he is reasonable isn’t he??? after all marco scutaro is underpaid at $7 mill per year.
laugh all. jeter and his posse are delusional…AGAIN AT 3 YRS $ 15 MILL HE IS GETTING A GIFT……………..
jeter is turining into a clown.. does he know how to read a stat line??????????????
8th or 9th place hitters get paid a few million bucks a year………………….
I have no opinion on Derek Jeer.
“Is Jeter any different than any other Yankee hitter outside of Cano and Swisher. He’s not entitled to one off season in 15 years? Not entitled to prove it was a fluke season?”
Jeter wants to be paid as if 2010 were a fluke season without bothering to prove it. To prove that 2010 was a fluke, Jeter should sign a one-year contract. Assuming a bounceback 2011, he could get a big, multi-year deal.
randy l. -
What would be the difference if you were offered a job, signed a 5 year contract to work for a company, and after the contract expired, you were free to leave, or negotiate a new contract. If MLB didn’t have these rules, then teams like the Yankees would sign all the top talent, and lesser teams would field AAA quality talent at best. Sports contracts and limitations are needed to help balance the league. Think of what it was like before a player could become an FA, that was salvery.
“Those two didn’t have the same offensive skills as Jeter”
Or the same defensive skills either…
“The Yankees want Derek back but Cash is not willing to make the same mistake he made with Jorge’s last contract.”
posada’s contract was a bad one?
so who was going to be the yankee catcher the past three years?
of course cashman could have gotten jorge a lot cheaper had he not let jorge go on the open market.
in other words , he should have negotiated the contract a year before it ended.he could have.
if a team let’s a player like posada go on the open market, what do you expect is going to happen.
look at victor martinez. did the red sox really think they were going to get him cheap once he hit the open market. not going to happen.
the yankees need to start signing key guys sooner if they want to avoid paying top dollar for their players.
At the time, the Mets were relevant. I think Posada would have left.
Maybe I do.
Derek Jeter has badly misplayed these negotiations. Too bad, it is time for the Yankees to rescue their Captain by offering 3 yrs @18mm.
Later folks.
big al-
even wallmart employees have become millionaires through stock ownership of wallmart.
why should core yankee players just be paid in salary?
A personal services contract is not going to happen nor is it a good idea right now.
And the person to blame for not having that (if you are someone who wants Derek to get one) is Derek.
There is obviously a huge gap between how much longer the Yankees feel confident Jeter will be playing baseball and how long Jeter does.
Jetes right now is looking at 5 more years. The Yankees only feel comfortable going 3.
Now why would Derek Jeter agree to basically retire 3 years from now?
Why would the Yankees even want to do that? Who knows, maybe after 3 years they want to extend him a couple more.
A personal services contract would basically be a provision in which Derek Jeter hits a certain age and the Yankees are pushing him out to retirement.
Doesn’t make sense for either side.
I was a Yankee fan long before Jeter came on the scene, and I’ll be a Yankee fan long after he’s gone.
exactly how much money does one person need, anyway?
Not only that -
Posada was the best – THE BEST – catcher available at the time. I don’t even think there was another viable option on the market, and there certainly wasn’t anyone “in the system” at the time to replace him. Posada had no injury history – he was a very good gamble at the time. In fact, the storyline at the time was that Jorge came to catching late in his career and so you could reasonably assume he’d be able to do it well for a few years beyond what you’d normally consider. You need to look at the situation as it was at the time, not as it looks 20/20 hindsight.
Every contract is a gamble anyway. Anything can happen. Or nothing.
I think the Yankees did a good thing with Posada’s contract.
GB7 -
Be realistic. Its not like they are asking Jeter to play for $5M and prove himself. 3/45 is a generous offer and shows adequate faith that he will be better than Peralta next year. He was NEVER worth $23M and he surely never will be going forward.
hardwired7 November 27th, 2010 at 11:59 am
I was a Yankee fan long before Jeter came on the scene, and I’ll be a Yankee fan long after he’s gone.
exactly how much money does one person need, anyway?
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You could ask the owners or actors or politicians or Bud Selig the same question. Makes no difference to me because it doesn’t affect my paycheck one way or the other.
clownthrowindown November 27th, 2010 at 12:03 pm
GB7 -
Be realistic. Its not like they are asking Jeter to play for $5M and prove himself. 3/45 is a generous offer and shows adequate faith that he will be better than Peralta next year. He was NEVER worth $23M and he surely never will be going forward.
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Instead of jumping in at the end, perhaps you might read further up the line. I never said to pay him $23 mil or more a year. You’re now dismissed.
GB7-
I realize your memory may fade in and out and reasoning gets a little tricky sometimes for you. You feel Jeter is worth more than the NYY want to pay him. Correct? You with me so far? You recall implying they are penalizing him for last year? Good, good…stay with me now. My reply was my opinion that they aren’t being unreasonable and penalizing him. You see that now? Read it again slowly. Now one more thing…stay awake…you said the $23M reports are BS. That’s an “opinion”. Fine. All I said – and that part wasn’t directed to you specifically – was that he’s not worth that much.
Going forward I will use smaller words and boldface the parts directed at you. Will that help?
There is a reason that the Tiger Woods, Wayne Gretskys and Michael Jordans of the world were/are paid hundreds of millions of dollars by corporations for being the face of their brand. They don’t do any work for the company in the traditional sense. Yet their value is almost incalculable. Customers buy the companies products and the brand increases in value substantially because of their association with it.
For fifteen years, Derek Jeter has been the face of the Yankees brand. Not Posada, not Tino, not Torre, not Mo, not Mussina, not O’Neill. During that time the value of the Yankees brand increased from the hundreds of millions of dollars to almost $1.6 billion dollars. Is that all attributable to Jeter. No. Is a part of it? I say yes.
I think one can make the case that he should be compensated for that. Some may say he already has been compensated. I disagree. That was for his on-the-field performance. Some may say those icons that I mentioned above, Woods, Jordan and Gretsky, were paid by corporations for their endorsements, not their teams. True. And the value of their teams did not increase by a billion dollars during their tenure either.
Derek Jeter is unique and it is hard to monetize his value to the Yankee brand. In the sports world of today, how do you value an athlete and team captain who not only contributed to winning five world championships and numerous post-season appearances, but carries himself with a professionalism, and practices a work ethic, that is admired by almost everyone in the sports world and out. Who never gets in trouble or does anything that would reflect negatively on his team. Who called his manger sir. No one respects the game and the fans more than Derek Jeter. And how many young kids in those fifteen years became lifelong Yankee fans, future ticket holders, because of Derek Jeter. What parent wouldn’t want their child idolizing Derek Jeter.
If one wants to make the case that Derek Jeter should be paid let’s say $12 million a year for three years based on his on-the-field comparative skills at this point in time, ok. But, I say it is more than fair to give him a small percentage on top of that for all of the above reasons. Namely his role in helping to increase the Yankees valuation a billion dollars.
Is this a typical way to compensate an athlete on his last contract? No. But Derek Jeter is no typical athlete and just because something has not been done before does not mean new ground can’t be broken. An aside, it is no wonder that Randy Levine insists on looking on Jeter’s deal as a ‘baseball only’ arrangement.
Give Jeter a 3% premium on that billion, surely 3% is a very conservative estimate of what his contribution was. Give him that gold watch of $30 million dollars. Give him $66 million for three years, shake hands and move on.
He deserves it.
Pure drivel
How about a (relatively) long contract but it ends if Jeter ends a season with a 240-260 average (figure obviously to be agreed upon).