Waiting for Cliff Lee
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 01, 2010 
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The Yankees and Derek Jeter are speaking again. That might not mean they’re close to a deal, but they’re talking, and that’s a pretty important part of any negotiation.
As for Cliff Lee, that seems to be anyone’s guess.
It could be that the Yankees have made an offer and the Rangers are preparing to counter. Or it could be that no one has submitted an offer to Lee, and his camp is waiting until next week to push toward a resolution during the Winter Meetings.
There’s no doubt Lee is drawing interest this winter, and the Yankees are in the running, but Lee is such a high commodity that he can dictate the terms of his negotiations. He doesn’t have to worry about a team settling for someone else.
There’s no one else like him on the market.
While the top candidates seem to be the Yankees and Rangers, the Rangers are something of an unknown. With a new ownership group, a new television deal and the bravado of a team that just won the pennant, Texas could make a significant splash and challenge the Yankees — though perhaps not match them — in terms of years and dollars.
It’s interesting that the New York Post uses five years as the contract benchmark. The idea of a CC Sabathia-like seven-year deal always seemed like a Lee pipe dream, but it would be in the best interest of the Yankees (or Rangers) to also avoid a six-year commitment.
Chip December 1st, 2010 at 12:06 pm
GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2010 at 11:57 am
It’ll be a cold day in Hell…err…Chicago if Reinsdorf and Williams don’t fire back on this threat.
Alexei Ramirez Opts Out Of $1.1MM Salary
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [December 1 at 10:51am CST]
Alexei Ramirez opted out of his $1.1MM salary for 2011 and will go to arbitration with the White Sox unless the team exercises a $2.5MM option within a week, according to Dave van Dyck of the Chicago Tribune. The shortstop had until today to decline a set $1.1MM salary for next year. The White Sox now have a week to choose between their $2.5MM option and taking the 2010 Silver Slugger winner to arbitration.
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Wouldn’t shock me to see them shop him heavily. Maybe to the San Francisco Giants or Tampa Bay Rays for some pitching help.
blake December 1st, 2010 at 11:10 am
Chip,
If they sign Lee then I would be shocked to see them go after Crawford…if they want to it would be fine with me but I just don’t see them.stretching the payroll that far.
————————
The way I look at it, there are no potential free agents next year that are on par with Crawford – plus the Yankees are going to have a lot of money coming off of next year’s books (Posada, Andy, Marte) who are likely to be replaced by low cost, internal candidates.
Cash could sell it the same way he sold upping the payroll for Tex and then spin Gardner off to replace some of the draft picks he will have lost by signing Type A guys.
Crawford is developing into a complete player – he has blazing speed, great defense and is now starting to add power to his game. I know that WAR (or whatever the heck it is) suggests he was only marginally better than Gardner last year – but anyone with eyes can tell you that Crawford is at the cusp of being an elite player (and he’s only 3 years older than Brett)
SI_JonHeyman the #yankees dont believe greinke wants to come to new york, nor should they. #nodealthere
Chip,
Yea I agree and have said the same things regarding next years payroll….but I just don’t know if they would stretch if far enough this year, we’ll see.
————
Tulo on mlbradio now….dudes a gamer.
ha… espn just made a comment that they think jeter is upset that the ‘man to jeters right’ also hit 270 last year and will make a lot more.
Stop trying to start trouble loser on espn, AND arod also had 125 rbis and 30 homers.
IMHO – George is gone it’s Hank and Hal running things now. No way are they going to replace a $450,000 outfielder in Gardner with an older $100 million dollar outfielder in Crawford. It’s not a necessity to them, no matter what the difference in skill levels may be.
if ARod was up for a contract, he would get same as they are offering D.J. , IMO
“Cash could sell it the same way he sold upping the payroll for Tex”
No he can’t. Teixiera was sold as an absolute necessity. There was a hole in the middle of the Yankees order that needed filling and they’d seen enough of average to below average defense at 1B. Teixeira was a need. He was a guy who was going to add wins to the Yankees. Crawford would be a luxury item rather than a need, and there’s little evidence to suggest that replacing Gardner with Crawford adds wins.
Chip
I’d like to give Gardner another year !.. He Improved big time . . He works the pitcher . gets on base at a decent clip , plays pretty good defense,, has an above average arm , but highly accurate……… he plays hard.
I’d like to see him hit a little better . .be more consistent ,, he was doing fine until that wrist injury happened. I’d also love to seem him be WAY MORE AGGRESSIVE on the base-paths.. Sometimes he overthinks the situation when he’s on first . Get on and Go. .Believe in your speed . . .He should have had more than 45 steals this season.. He’s easily a 60 SB guy.
Theres room for improvement ! . Im not ready to give up on him even for Carl Crawford.
It has nothing to do with Hank and Hal running the team.
George wouldn’t have spent 100+ million on Carl Crawford either.
Jeter can be upset about Alex’s contract until the cows come home. It can’t be undone.
hopefully this doesn’t play out like Waiting for Godot
*Spoiler Alert*
he never shows up.
We can get by without Crawford. I see him ending up with LAA.
That’s your opinion SJ44. Thanks.
Crawford is goog, perhaps very good. But he is not that good,IMO
Per Mlbtraderumors -
The Yankees haven?t made Lee an offer, a source tells Wallace Matthews of ESPNNewYork.com. In fact, agent Darek Braunecker isn?t looking for proposals just yet.
?He really doesn’t want any offers until next week,? Matthews? source said. ?He wants to be the ringmaster at the winter meetings. I don’t expect anything to get done until after that
Reports are Crawford wants 8 years and Werth 6. I just don’t see the Yanks being a player in that game unless Lee goes elsewhere.
if the yankees do not get cliff lee, are they going to go after crawford?
More than just opinion, look at George’s history with free agents.
With two exceptions, George spent big on pitching and power in free agency.
The two exceptions…Dave Collins and Derek Jeter. One could argue that he didn’t necessarily spent “big” on Collins. Although, George didn’t see it that way at the time! lol
Spending big on Jeter was obviously smart.
Collins? After he wasted that money, he vowed never to spend that kind of moneyfor that kind of player again in free agency. It didn’t fit what he believed free agency acquisitions were all about.
For a contract the size Crawford is seeking, George would have passed.
What the Yankees are offering Derek has nothing to do with previous bad contracts.
It only has to do with Derek.
It sounds like Lee is getting a bit full of himself. The ringmaster???
Laura -
To be fair.. i think its Lee’s agent that wants to be the ringmaster.
I might add technically, Jeter wasn’t a FA when he was signed to his 10 year deal.
So, one could argue, Dave Collins is the only non-power hitter, non-pitcher George ever spent large FA dollars on during his time running the team.
YankeesWFAN Brian Cashman’s rapelling down bldg in Stamford dressed as Santa’s elf has dry run on Fri, broadcast live on FNC Fox & Friends.
YankeesWFAN Fox & Friends co-host is Gretchen Carlson, wife of Casey Close (Jeter’s agent). Cashman should double-check his harness is secure.
The success of the offseason depends on signing Lee. Get it done.
“With two exceptions, George spent big on pitching and power in free agency.”
I think Rickey Henderson fits the Crawford mold.
“YankeesWFAN Fox & Friends co-host is Gretchen Carlson, wife of Casey Close (Jeter’s agent). Cashman should double-check his harness is secure.”
That woman is a clown.
Buster Olney describes how the Tulowitzki contract extension took shape:
“The conversation that Troy Tulowitzki had with Rockies general manager Dan O’Dowd, in the GM’s office in the first days of October, was about baseball, but it really wasn’t.
It was about Tulowitzki’s ambition. It was about what Tulowitzki wanted to do with his life, how he wanted to raise children, where he wanted to live, what he wanted to accomplish.
O’Dowd walked away from those conversations thinking that Rockies owner Charlie Monfort needed to hear what Tulowitzki felt and what he was thinking. And so he asked Tulowitzki to come back to his office to meet with Monfort, with whom the shortstop has a good relationship.
No money was discussed. No contract was discussed. This was about Tulowitzki’s ambitions. He spoke about how he wanted what Tony Gwynn and Cal Ripken had been able to do — play careers that could be measured in decades for one team in one city. He wanted what Derek Jeter — Tulowitzki’s inspiration for wearing No. 2 — appears to have. “He cited those guys and said, ‘This is what I want my career to represent,’” recalled O’Dowd.
Monfort and O’Dowd came out of that meeting believing they wanted to invest in Tulowitzki and his dream. “I saw a maturity in him that I’ve been noticing the last couple of years,” O’Dowd said over the phone Tuesday evening.
Tulowitzki’s status as the best shortstop in the big leagues is the major reason the Rockies have committed $157.75 million over the next 10 years to him. O’Dowd knows that there will be industry criticism of Colorado’s decision to do this now, but he and Monfort are convinced that everything is right about this deal — the player, the timing, the motives on both sides. “When you do things for the right reasons,” said O’Dowd, “it usually works out OK.”
O’Dowd and Tulowitzki talked through all that could happen during the tenure of the shortstop’s contract. The Rockies, with their mid-level payroll, might struggle. There might be a day when Tulowitzki might have to change positions. There could be a lot of ups and downs.
And at the end of those conversations and about six weeks of negotiations, O’Dowd and Tulowitzki and agent Paul Cohen had worked out a mutual future.”
What Pat said.
If it was about “bad contracts”, the Yankees would have offered less money because one could argue this current offer constitutes a “bad contract” for the Yankees.
This only has to do with this deal and is not “payback” for past bad deals.
Perhap, Mike. That comment just sounded bad.
LOL I agree Laura — Very Scott Boras like
Rickey Henderson hit for more power than Crawford and was a much better all around player.
Also, the Yankees traded for Henderson. He was not acquired in free agency.
I have never seen a player impact a game more on a regular basis than Rickey.
SJ44-
Rickey Henderson was the greater player, of course, but much more like Crawford than a power hitter. At the time, everyone would have said Henderson was a speed type player.
And, the Yanks gave Henderson a big (for the time) 5 year contract when they acquired him.
More like a free agent deal than a trade. And more like Crawford than not.
That said, the Yanks aren’t going after him unless they don’t get Lee.
I’m liking my prediction for Jeter’s contract at this point:
# hardwired7 November 3rd, 2010 at 4:22 pm
3 yrs/$51M
On Crawford:
I think the issue will be for Brian whether or not Carl Crawford represents a unique talent that the Yankees can build around – similar to what he did in adding Curtis Granderson.
In that case Cashman looked at Granderson and looked at Jackson and determined that if all went well in Austin Jackson’s career he might someday become nearly as good as Curtis Granderson and so he made the swap.
In this case I think he can look at Crawford and look at Gardner and say that even if everything goes right for Brett, he’ll likely never be in the same class with Crawford. And it’s highly unlikely that a player like Crawford will be available as a free agent again for a long time. So if you don’t pounce now, when would you be able to get it again?
Now of course, all of this will boil down to dollars and sense (not cents) as in whether the dollars make sense for the club.
Again – with Jorge and Andy representing a lot of money coming off next year’s payroll and no marquee free agents to go after – if you’re Hal and Cash you may look at it as though you’ll take the hit this year but next year the payroll will be back where you want it to be and while Brett’s probably not going to land you a Blue Chipper; trading him will help add depth to the farm. Or you can always keep him as a fourth outfielder.
I like your prediction more than the contract.
SJ and Wave -
The best comperable to Carl Crawford that the Yankees have signed in recent years is Johnny Damon. Now he was older, his arm wasn’t as good, but at the plate the two were/are quite similar.
As I see it, and this is just my opinion and could be completely wrong, while Damon’s skills were eroding, Crawfords are still blooming. He still has elite speed, and is adding power (which will only increase when you factor in the short porch)
At the time of his acquisition, Rickey Henderson was considered one of the five best players in the game. Also, Rickey put fans in the seats. Something the Yankees really needed when he was acquired. Crawford has never been at that level, on or off the field.
Yet, he’s going to get paid in the neighborhood of 16-18 million a year.
That’s not really the kind of guy George looked to get in free agency. Not enough impact on the field, on the back page or at the gate.
In this case I think he can look at Crawford and look at Gardner and say that even if everything goes right for Brett, he’ll likely never be in the same class with Crawford. And it’s highly unlikely that a player like Crawford will be available as a free agent again for a long time. So if you don’t pounce now, when would you be able to get it again?
__
difference is Granderson is paid a reasonable salary and only for two more years.
Crawford wants a lot of money and a lot of years.
Cliff Lee wants CC money OK, but no way 7 years, 6 is still nuts. 5 years at 23mil should get it done.
Love to see the Yankees sign Andy first. Signing Andy will take the pressure off and maybe keep them from having to go that 6th year.
Give Jeter 3 years at 18.9 so you can say he didn’t take a pay cut. Maybe go to a 4th year option with a 5-6mil buyout. 60+mil is a lot more than the 45 so he should take that.
Fun to talk about this stuff when it’s not your $$…
“I think the issue will be for Brian whether or not Carl Crawford represents a unique talent that the Yankees can build around – similar to what he did in adding Curtis Granderson”
It’s not similar. 1st of all, it had become abundantly clear that Cabrera was not a full time player at this level and a hole in the outfield needed filling. Granderson was Cashman’s answer to that. Secondly, and perhaps as important, is that the financial commitment was nowhere close to the one Crawford would require in both dollars and years. The terms under which the Yankees hold Granderson allow for some flexibility that another $18M-$20M longterm contract, that Crawford will play all but 4 months of in his 30′s, will not.
Wave -
I also think that it isn’t entirely based on what Cliff Lee does. If the Yankees sign Lee and Andy retires they could allocate that money to a Crawford contract too…
If George pursued Crawford, he would have forced him to bat leadoff.
The idea that significant money is coming off the books the next couple years is a myth.
i dont think 5 will get it done for Lee….his agent will use Texas’s 5 year offer to push them to a 6th
Yankees are going to lose out on Lee..staying with Tex which will force them to trade for a SP, if turn they will use the Lee $$$$ to sign a OFer….Gardner will go in a package for a SP
ac1 December 1st, 2010 at 12:59 pm
In this case I think he can look at Crawford and look at Gardner and say that even if everything goes right for Brett, he’ll likely never be in the same class with Crawford. And it’s highly unlikely that a player like Crawford will be available as a free agent again for a long time. So if you don’t pounce now, when would you be able to get it again?
__
difference is Granderson is paid a reasonable salary and only for two more years.
Crawford wants a lot of money and a lot of years.
——————-
Forget what Crawford wants for a second – simply because all players want the moon and the stars – let’s assume that what the market dictates is that Crawford gets somewhere around what Matt Holliday got last year from St. Louis 7 years $17 mil per.
The Yankees can do that – they can easily swing that. As I said, this year if Andy’s back they take a hit, but after this year he slots right into what Jorge was making and you’re not going to go out on the FA market to replace Posada anyway.
Mell -
The question wasn’t Granderson or Melky it was Granderson or Austin Jackson.
Jackson was ready to come up and I think Brian had already determined that at best, Melky was going to compete with Gardner for the LF spot. So it was a question of whether or not they would roll with Austin Jackson in CF or bring in the established player in Granderson – they went with Granderson (correctly so) because the best case scenario for Jackson would that he could become Curtis Granderson.
LGY December 1st, 2010 at 1:01 pm
The idea that significant money is coming off the books the next couple years is a myth.
——————-
Jorge Posada’s contract runs out after this year, that’s $15 mil. If Andy returns for 1 more year at his $12 mil and then retires, that’s another $12 – that’s $27 mil off the books. I would rather spend that money on Carl Crawford then on giving Nick Swisher a long term deal…wouldn’t you?
Again,
I’m not saying this is a likely scenario – but it is a plausible one based on the fact that I think when Brian sees a unique talent like Crawford available for only dollars and not prospects he is more apt to pursue it.
They have an option on Swisher for 2012.
“I have never seen a player impact a game more on a regular basis than Rickey”
He really was. Such a unique combination of skills.
I don’t think Crawford wants to sign with a big market team like the Yankees. Just a feeling I have.
SI_JonHeyman hank steinbrenner’s the 1 talking publicly, but i hear hal’s driving the bus. hal raised jeter offer (hank was opposed). #yankees
“The question wasn’t Granderson or Melky it was Granderson or Austin Jackson.”
How ever you choose to dress it up, the fact was that Cashman was not comfortable with the outfield he had and Granderson was a way of addressing that need without selling out on payroll flexibility. Crawford fills no need and hurts the payroll flexibility.
i dont think 5 will get it done for Lee?.his agent will use Texas?s 5 year offer to push them to a 6th
-
I agree Blake.. I don’t think 5 will get it done either !. it’ll be for 6
# Laura – I Bleed Blue December 1st, 2010 at 1:17 pm
I don’t think Crawford wants to sign with a big market team like the Yankees. Just a feeling I have.
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big market small market he goes where the money is
SJ44 December 1st, 2010 at 12:59 pm
At the time of his acquisition, Rickey Henderson was considered one of the five best players in the game. Also, Rickey put fans in the seats. Something the Yankees really needed when he was acquired. Crawford has never been at that level, on or off the field.
Yet, he’s going to get paid in the neighborhood of 16-18 million a year.
That’s not really the kind of guy George looked to get in free agency. Not enough impact on the field, on the back page or at the gate.
—————————-
I think we’re off the rails a bit. The question isn’t what George would have done, it’s what will Brian do?
Again, if at the Winter Meetings (or soon after them) Cashman has a firm sense of what his team is going to look like; Jeter, Mo and Lee all in the fold or out of it – and Crawford is still sitting there listening to offers, I think that Brian will at least have the conversation with Hal that this is an opportunity to get a player who doesn’t come along very often in his prime. I think if Cashman really wants to have the budget room to add him and makes a compelling argument for him then I think Crawford will end up in pinstripes.
Raised it to what?
You never know, joeman. He could surprise us all and stay in Tampa for less money.
Laura-from earlier today:
SI_JonHeyman it appears the #yankees told jeter they will enhance opening $45 mil bid but only a few million to close to $50 mil. ball in his court now
An interesting utility option. Just give him some corner iutfield time in ST or winter ball.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Mariners To Non-Tender Jose Lopez
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [December 1 at 11:31am CST]
The Mariners will non-tender Jose Lopez tomorrow, according to Mike Salk of 710 ESPN Seattle. The M’s declined their option for Lopez earlier in the offseason and were not expected to offer the infielder a contract through the arbitration process.
The 27-year-old batted .239/.270/.339 in 622 plate appearances last year and saw his homer total drop from 25 to 10. Lopez has typically displayed more pop than he showed in 2010, but he has always had trouble reaching base, as his career .297 OBP shows. Lopez, who is eligible for free agency after 2011, played third last year, but has spent most of his career at second base. The Rockies have some interest in signing him.
Crawford will be a Yankee because Lee is signing with Tex
Crawford will be a Yankee because Lee is signing with Tex-
Say it aint so Joe !!
“I think if Cashman really wants to have the budget room to add him and makes a compelling argument for him then I think Crawford will end up in pinstripes”
There’s the rub. There is no compelling argument.
Mell,
Crawford does fill a need in that he adds to the Yankees’ “new core” With Jeter, Alex and Jorge getting on in years having a guy like Crawford, who may still be getting better, to join Tex, Granderson and Cano could form a new offensive core for this club going forward.
Is he vital to the success of the team? Probably not. But if you’re Brian, the only player who might be available who is worth looking at in next year’s FA class is really Albert Pujols and you have no fit for him on the club – so why not spend the money now on Crawford rather than spend it later on lesser guys?
Additionally – while Gardner had a very strong 2010 campaign, he is never going to be the player Carl Crawford is and the uptick in age (Gardner 27, Crawford 29) is not terribly significant.
Thanks Erin!
Gardner goes in a package for a SP….
The only way Lee signs with Texas will be if they give Him more years because I don’t see them topping us in dollars.
Laura – I Bleed Blue December 1st, 2010 at 1:27 pm
Thanks Erin!
*********************
You’re welcome
Mell December 1st, 2010 at 1:25 pm
“I think if Cashman really wants to have the budget room to add him and makes a compelling argument for him then I think Crawford will end up in pinstripes”
There’s the rub. There is no compelling argument.
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Oh absolutely there is:
Carl Crawford -
In his prime
Blazing speed
Tremendous defense
increasing power
Only player of his kind that we’re likely to find that doesn’t cost prospects
a lengthy track record of success
no nagging or major injuries to speak of
There are no free agents worth looking at in next year’s class – so give me the money you were going to give me next year, this year.
GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2010 at 1:23 pm
An interesting utility option. Just give him some corner iutfield time in ST or winter ball.
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More likely he’s going to want a starting job (or the chance to compete for one) somewhere and I think the Yankees are likely to give the utility IF job to Nunez.
If Crawford is going to be a Yankee, he’s going to have to start wearing a cup. Heehee!
eww jose lopez… a sub .300 OBP is just god awful.
What if the Yankees were to withdraw from the list of Lee suitors? Wouldn’t that reduce his price tag significantly?
“so why not spend the money now on Crawford rather than spend it later on lesser guys?”
Why spend it at all if you don’t need to?
Carl Crawford -
In his prime
Blazing speed
Tremendous defense
increasing power
Gardner gives you three of these and superior OBP at 1/40th the cost.
Mell -
Take a look at the 2011 FA Class
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.c.....-2012.html
Pujols and Adrian are the cream of the crop but with Tex the Yankees don’t have a fit for either of them.
After that you’re looking at a broken down Carlos Beltran, Grady Sizemore (if his option is declined) who just had microfracture surgery, an aged Bobby Abreu, and chum.
In terms of pitchers – Buehrle isn’t going anywhere other than Chicago and if they lose Lee, odds are Texas locks up CJ Wilson before he ever gets to free agency.
So if Cashman is going to get money to play with when Jorge’s contract expires next year – maybe he can get a 1 year advance on that this year to sign a VASTLY better player than any who would be available next season.
mell,
i totally agree. they’re better off spending that money on lee.
or the international draft market.
Mell -
Carl Crawford has been putting up All-Star numbers for years now.
Brett Gardner had a nice season in 2010 just as Melky had a nice season in 2009
Comparing Gardner to Crawford is as short-sighted as comparing Melky to Granderson.
Chip
You can’t look at it that simply. That is only part of the equation.
You also have to factor in raises and arbitration. And of course use the right salary in Jorges case.
There is also the possibility they are already going over budget for Lee.
So head back over to Cots and redo your calculations and then get back to us
chip – i think mell’s point is (or should be) that crawford’s career started somewhere too… right where gardner’s is starting.
I didn’t say to go outbid everyone for Lopez. all I said was that it was an interesting option as a utility player. I also don’t care that a utility player only draws a few walks, as long as he can hit some, has a little extra base power and isn’t Wilson Betemit/Eric hinske bad in the field. He has played all four infield spots. whether he gets a full time spot somewhere is another story.
“SI_JonHeyman hank steinbrenner’s the 1 talking publicly, but i hear hal’s driving the bus. hal raised jeter offer (hank was opposed). #yankees”
That’s funny about Hank being opposed.
it appears the #yankees told jeter they will enhance opening $45 mil bid but only a few million to close to $50 mil. ball in his court now
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50,325,000$$ will give him 16.775 per year.
Tulo’s AAV with the buyout is 15.775.
Wow, West Coast – I’m sorry I asked for a link to your article – such an unreasonable request.
Lee can handle this any way he wants, but since he’s going to play this for all it’s worth, if I’m the Yankees I don’t jump in until others have made their bids. Why get involved in a circus?
I don’t think the Yankees should budge from their 3/45, but if they do by a few million, I won’t be upset. If that’s not good enough for Jeter, then good luck elsewhere.
ID –
If Gardner were 23 or 24 I would agree with you, but he’s going to be 27 this season – he is what he is…and this isn’t a knock on Gardner mind you – he’s a very nice player in the Scott Podsednik, Juan Pierre, Jacoby Ellsbury mold.
But ain’t none of those guys Carl Crawford.
Crawford will play this year at 29, the earlier part of his prime years, and has shown steady progression in terms of power while maintaining the speed that got him to the bigs in the first place.
He is an elite defensive player and a prolific base stealer. I’m not going to say he’s Rickey Henderson, but he’s as close as anyone we’ve seen in years.
And if you take that left handed bat, with its increasing power performance and put it in Yankee Stadium, you could be looking at a guy who can from the 2 spot hit 30 HR and steal 60 bases.
By the way, WC, I DID post the link to the article – in the thread I originally posted it in. I just inadvertently forgot to copy that link when I posted it in the thread previous to this one.
LGY -
Yes, I was off by a whole 1.9 mil on Jorge’s contract – you’ll have to forgive me but in my opinion 2 mil to the Yankees is comparable to 50 cents to you and me.
Why is everyone trying to fill a non-need? The Yanks don’t need a corner outfielder, certainly not a $15-$18 mil a year one. Even if there was a need, I’d hate to see the Yankees getting him and then tinkering with his swing to convert him to a power hitter. The Angels are talking about putting him into the #3 spot and getting him to hit homers. Huge mistake.
Carl Crawford -
In his prime
Blazing speed
Tremendous defense
increasing power
Gardner gives you three of these and superior OBP at 1/40th the cost.
– 100 percent correct Mel
I don’t doubt that about Hal, but Hank getting involved publicly and opening his big mouth is not a good sign for the Yankees.
Baseball Reference has Carl Crawford nickname as “The Perfect Storm.” WTF? Has anyone ever heard Crawford called The Perfect Storm?
http://www.baseball-reference......ca02.shtml
I’m surprised at Hal being the one who increased the offer……..I really wish they’d stay firm. The Yankees continue to bid against themselves, so so much for their smarter decision making.
I have no desire for Carl Crawford at any price. Once his legs go, that’s it…….and he doesn’t make up for losing Lee (if we do).
29 is leaving prime years.
Especially for a player who has played so long as Crawford has.
Chip:
We’re obviously not going to agree on this, so we should probably let it go. I just don’t see him as the type of guy you bust your budget for and have enumerated the reasons.
And please spare me the “look at the 2011 free agent class” argument. Who says the Yankees are somehow obligated to make a big free agent splash every year? They made no such splash last year. Didn’t following the 2007 season either. They make the splashes when and where necessary. Damon in 2005. Teixeira, Sabathia and Burnett in 2008. Quite likely Lee this year.
About Crawford. Wave I fixed your last statement,
“That said, the Yanks aren’t going after him.”
Carl is good, but not at ‘any price’. 4 years 13 million like Matsui and Damon? Yes. 8 years and 20 million or whatever craziness he might get on the market? No.
The Yankees are going to have 100 mil tied up between like 4 players for the 5 years. No sense blowing a wad on Crawford when Gardner fills that unique role already. Crawford’s not too good vs lefties and doesn’t really on base as much as he should to warrant the money spent on him.
Hank opening his mouth-hole and saying things like:
“We want to keep him. He’s very important”
“I certainly hope he remains with us and he certainly should”
“I feel confident that Derek will remain with the Yankees, and my brother does, as well”
Is an ominous sign indeed.
Baseball Reference has Carl Crawford nickname as ?The Perfect Storm.? WTF? Has anyone ever heard Crawford called The Perfect Storm?
– Thats new to me Tom !! never heard that . . besides . .its pretty Lame if you ask me .
Crawford = John Damon
Carl Crawford is going to be chased by the Red Sox, Angels, Tigers and more. Reports say he wants 8 years.
He is going to cost a bundle. A big bundle. Unless Lee signs elsewhere, which seems unlikely, or Derek Jeter goes elsewhere, which he won’t, the Yanks aren’t going to get him.
George or Hal, I think they would analyze the situation the same.
Crawford played on turf. That’s not good for his legs.
Tom, please, your missing the point. I don’t want Hank saying ANYTHING to the media…..he’s a blowhard.
either it’s his wrestling name, or he served on the Andrea Gail.
“Is an ominous sign indeed.”
lol so true
Did Hank run over some of these guys’ dogs?
# GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2010 at 1:48 pm
Why is everyone trying to fill a non-need? The Yanks don’t need a corner outfielder, certainly not a $15-$18 mil a year one. Even if there was a need, I’d hate to see the Yankees getting him and then tinkering with his swing to convert him to a power hitter. The Angels are talking about putting him into the #3 spot and getting him to hit homers. Huge mistake.
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if they lose out on Lee the $ is going somewhere…..
Carl Crawford is really damn good but the Yanks don’t need him. He’s better than Gardner but not $80 million better.
Crawford will get more than he’s worth because of a bidding war involving several clubs. The Angels will bid, at least the 5/18 given to Torii Hunter, and will probably go higher because of their decline in 2010. I doubt the Yankees value Crawford that highly unless they have another team lusting after one of their existing outfielders and offering something very pleasing in return.
No problem with Hank
The fact that he is opposed to increasing the offer is even better. Seemed like he learned his lesson about bidding against himself. If only Hal would follow…
He is going to cost a bundle. A big bundle. The Yanks aren’t going to get him.
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Fixed again for you Wave.
The Astros need to sign Crawford. He’d be the perfect player for that park. Everyone with ticlets in the outfild bleachers could be sitting in the Crawford Seats.
With Jeter, the sticking point has been the years and not the dollars. Any compromise made by the Yankees will be something slightly north of $50M.
Texas is inquisitive about the Yankees offer to Lee but will not be able to match it. They’ll be shelling out big dollars for Hamilton and Cruz to settle arbitration cases.
Betsy, like it or not, Hank is a co-owner of the Yankees. And as such, he has every right to state is opinion on the state of the team. After all it’s his money they are spending.
Hank opening his mouth-hole and saying things like:
“We want to keep him. He’s very important”
“I certainly hope he remains with us and he certainly should”
“I feel confident that Derek will remain with the Yankees, and my brother does, as well”
Is an ominous sign indeed.
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They probably gave him index cards to read from.
***tickets***
Gardner has increasing power? He had no home runs in the second half of the season.
He is a nice player with a lot of speed resulting in good defense. I believe what you have seen is what you will get. He is not now nor will he ever be Crawford. That being said, I hope they sign Lee, and then I don’t see Crawford being in play.
Hank is a beast.
A rich one at that.
I too have no problem with what Hank said.
Yanks78, I agree about that. IF that report is true, I’m surprised – I would much prefer that the Yankees just remain absolutely firm.
IMO, one thing to consider in the Crawford-Gardner discussion. FA players like Crawford are not available every day and I hope that after 2011 the Yankees don’t look back on this with regret after Gardner has a poor year which is entirely possible. You don’t want another Joba situation and hold onto someone too long until his trade value drops precipitously.
By Hank’s standards, it was about as innocuous as it gets.
I could see the Yanks going after Crawford if they don’t sign Lee.
The theory would be that there are no Lee replacements except via trade. The Yanks would sign Crawford, then include one of their existing outfielders, probably Swisher or Granderson rather than Gardner, in a package deal for a top line starting pitcher.
If the Yankees do decide to change their oufield then ideally it would be by adding a right handed power bat……would the “hurt” in prospects to acquire Justin Upton be less than the “hurt” financially to commit long term to Crawford?….I don’t know, if they sign Lee then they probably do neither but if they opt to change the outfield then I would prefer they go that route than pursue Crawford….otherwise just leave the already good outfield alone.
Hank Steinbrenner gives a totally Derek Jeter/Brian Cashman type response to a question and suddenly he’s “hated ” for saying nothing.
The Yankees will not sign Carl Crawford, period.
# Wave Your Hat December 1st, 2010 at 2:05 pm
I could see the Yanks going after Crawford if they don’t sign Lee.
The theory would be that there are no Lee replacements except via trade. The Yanks would sign Crawford, then include one of their existing outfielders, probably Swisher or Granderson rather than Gardner, in a package deal for a top line starting pitcher.
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what I have been saying ….
I hope that after 2011 the Yankees don’t look back on this with regret after Crawford has a poor year.
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Changed this around. If gardner has a poor year they aren’t locked into a 7 year 140 million dollar deal.
GB- I just read about your loss. My sincere condolences and best thoughts to you and your family my friend.
Chip – i’m not sure you are representing crawfords career trends properly.
saying his power is trending up is disingenuous. sure, 2010 was his highest career SLG% and HR total, but to say its trending up to a point where he will significantly outperform his career trends is simply not true.
his career tells this story. he is a .450 slugger, he will hit “teen-ish” home runs and triples every season. he will steal somewhere around 40 bags every seasons.
In fact, the only thing I see significantly “trending” in one direction is his contract. he has been largely the same player since he entered the league.
Chip — I am not a True Believer in Gardner like some are here but his 2010 was better than any year Melky ever had as a Yankee. It was also close enough to what cc brings to the table that the opportunity cost of Gardner is likely going to benefit the Yankees more than the money and years you’d be tying up in cc. Particularly when you consider his game is based on his legs, and he’s been playing on turf his whole career.
Save your … chips… and play a different hand IMHO.
If they don’t get Lee Gardner is going in a package for a SP
Jerkface. Crawford has a history of sustained excellence. Gardner does not.
Why do the Yankees need a right handed power bat? The have a perfectly formed regular line-up. 3 right, 3 left and 3 switch hitters. The fam system is predominantly right handed and so is the present bench. The park is set for left handed hitters and most pitchers are right handed.
Jerkface. Crawford has a history of sustained excellence. Gardner does not.
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Really? REALLY?
Thanks for the sentiments and kind thoughts, Bronx. Much appreciated.
joeman, I don’t think Gardner gets a deal done.
Patrick-
You seem particularly obstinate. Why?
WCYF
If the Yankees were worried about LF long term they would have signed the better player in Holliday last year when Gardy was way more of a question mark.
austinmac – “He is not now nor will he ever be Crawford”
Is it really that outrageous to suggest that Gardner might hit 10-15 HR’s at some point in his career?
WCYF – i agree with your “holding on too long” sentiment (even though i don’t agree on writing off joba at this point), but nothing in gardner’s performance last season suggests an expected regression going forward.
GB7,
I just think they do….Montero is coming and that will help but as Arod and Jeter continue to age I think they may need more from that side to neutralize LH pitching (Lester, Price, Liriano, etc..). Just an opinion…
Crawford reminds me of Kenny Lofton.
What exactly is the problem with what Hank said? I don’t get it.
WYH,
1. Because Crawford is not a superstar and he’s going to get paid like one.
2. Because the Yankees already have Crawford 2.0 in Brett Gardner (albiet with less power).
3. If the Yankees can’t sign Lee how is Crawford going to help? Even if you trade Swisher, Gardner or Granderson you aren’t getting a really good pitcher back.
4. Crawford has the type of skills that decline pretty quick with age. He’s at the end of his prime and will decline over the course of his new deal.
Need I go on?
Hank’s most recent comments are probably the most dignified comments either side has made during this whole thing – confidence about a deal being reached, rather than more passive-aggressive negotiating tactics and insults.
Hank gets killed for expressing optimism about a deal, Cash gets praised for telling him to test the market and see if he can find an offer he likes. Yikes.
Erin, I never said I had a problem with what Hank said……….well, not today anyway. His comments a few days ago were ridiculous. I’ve made myself pretty clear – it’s not his comments today that I have a problem with, I just think he’s a blowhard and I prefer not to hear from him. Nuff said on that.
Crawford will age better than Werth
Patrick-
I think you are leaping to conclusions with your point (2), I don’t believe there is evidence one way or the other for your point (3), and I disagree with your point (4).
Other than that how was the play, Ms. Lincoln?
Crawford will age better than Werth
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I don’t want Werth either but this is probably untrue. Werth has skills that age well, Crawford does not.
the only thing crawford has “sustained” over his career is a slow increase of value year over year.
he started at a lower baseline than gardner has.
at age 26, gardner actually had a better year than crawford.
Lets just play it out, Lee signs with Tex, Yankees have that FA money sitting there, there’s no other worthy FA SP to chase after, so there is a the to fill that SP position. ( and if Andy decides to retire there is a deeper need) they sign a OFer in turn free up the only position player they can trade Gardner who goes in a package for a SP……….
Besides Jeter and Ichiro what other non-power hitter has signed a deal that pays north of 15 million per year?
Crawford would hit 20-22 HRs in YS. He would basically be Damon, except without as much OBP, but more speed (even as he ages) and MUCH better defensively.
WYH,
How am I jumping to conclusions with point 2? Gardner is a fantastic fielder in LF, Crawford is a fantastic fielder in LF. Gardner is one of the best base stealers in the game, Crawford is one of the best base stealers in the game. As I mentioned, Crawford has slightly more power but he still averages only 10-15 HR a year. The only other difference is that Gardner has significantly better OBP skills than Crawford while Crawford has a better average. Are those differences worth $80 million + ? NO
We can disagree on points 3 and 4 but why do you disagree? Hitting for power and taking walks are known as old man skills for a reason. They age well. Stealing bases and fielding do NOT age well, it’s a known fact. Crawford’s game is based on stealing bases and being an incredible fielder – it’s where a vast amount of his value comes from. And about our OF’s trade value… whatever. Agree if you like, we can’t really prove it one way or another.
Crawford is vastly overrated and simply not worth the money.
tom – mauer is the only person i can think of off the top of my head, maybe torii hunter? hunter hit a decent amount of HR but still SLGs low .400′s
having more speed than damon’s busted hammy’s is not exactly an accomplishment. you want crawford limping around the outfield like damon in the final years of that monster contract?
rreverent Discourse December 1st, 2010 at 2:28 pm
the only thing crawford has “sustained” over his career is a slow increase of value year over year. he started at a lower baseline than gardner has. at age 26, gardner actually had a better year than crawford.
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Irreverent Discourse. Question. Do you think there is a general manager in baseball that would take Gardner over Crawford if their salary was equal?
Irreverent, I forgot about Mauer and Hunter. Thanks.
Irreverent Discourse. Question. Do you think there is a general manager in baseball that would take Gardner over Crawford if their salary was equal?
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Give it some time and maybe the answer is yes. But right now? No. The point is that Crawford will be making anywhere from 15-20 million a year while Gardner will be making the minimum. Considering they are actually pretty close in value, why would the Yankees ever choose Crawford over Gardner?
Patrick-
You are jumping to conclusions with point 2 because first, Gardner has not shown the power that Crawford has, and second, projecting Gardner after one only one season along a Crawford career path is silly.
Point 3 I say there is no evidence for stating a top starting pitcher is not available in a trade. Yes, if you want to define top starting pitcher as Lee/Lincecum quality it would be difficult, but I don’t think the Yanks necessarily have to have that quality.
Point 4- Speed can age well when married to Crawford’s body type. I don’t think there is any necessary projection there.
That said, this is all hypothetical because I fully expect the Yanks to sign both Lee and Jeter.
The money is the issue. As it stands right now, Crawford is the better ball player. But is he worth a $14,500,000.00+ more that Gardner next year?
lets see what 2 strike Gardner can do for a few years before he’s compared to CC…..
IMO – The Yankees would not choose to sign Crawford given Gardner’s cost (unless there were extenuating circumstances). I was commenting regarding the questioning of Crawford’s abilities in comparison to Bretts’s.
I already said Gardner doesn’t have Crawford’s power. But he does have Crawford’s speed and fielding. Plus a significantly higher OBP.
WYH – you keep saying that… “Gardner has not shown the power that Crawford has”
Why do you care so much about the insignificant amount of power that crawford has? 15 HR’s a year is not power.
None of crawfords value is tied to his power, so why does gardner have to duplicate it. For an extra $15 million a year Crawford had BETTER hit more homeruns, even if they are all by accident.
And when the heck are people going to give Gardner credit? He had a good stretch in 2009 until he got hurt, a lot of people said it was a fluke. Then he tore it up in 2010 and all year many people said he would slow down… well he never did. Now we have more than a season of Gardner playing at a high level and there are still detractors. So tell me, when is an appropriate time to admit that Brett Gardner is a damn good player?
Point 4- Speed can age well when married to Crawford’s body type. I don’t think there is any necessary projection there.
This is nonsense. No one that plays on turf their whole career runs well after 30. You should be coming up with FACTS that refute it, your opinion on the matter is worthless.
Carl Crawford: Brett Gardner with more power and less OBP?
Carl Crawford: Brett Gardner with more power and less OBP?
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Pretty much..
It’s pretty straight forward is you don’t get your facts all twisted.
Gardner already has the speed.
Gardner already has the defense.
Power develops, and is unnecessary for their game type. The difference between 5 and 15 HR’s is a bowl of wheaties.
Gardner already gets on base and walks at a higher clip than Crawford has his entire career.
Gardner does not cost $100million.
What is Crawford actually bringing to the table? An extra 10 home runs? Who cares.
And when the heck are people going to give Gardner credit? He had a good stretch in 2009 until he got hurt, a lot of people said it was a fluke. Then he tore it up in 2010 and all year many people said he would slow down… well he never did. Now we have more than a season of Gardner playing at a high level and there are still detractors. So tell me, when is an appropriate time to admit that Brett Gardner is a damn good player?
___
to a point yes. until the postseason when he was basically useless. He couldn’t get the ball out of the infield and was responsible for leaving half an army on the bases in the texas series. He needs to learn to bunt, and hit with runners on.
Oh, I forgot another one… Gardner will play center field to spell Granderson. Crawford has refused to do that his entire career.
that being said, gardner over crawford for the cost and years locked in.
to a point yes. until the postseason when he was basically useless. He couldn’t get the ball out of the infield and was responsible for leaving half an army on the bases in the texas series. He needs to learn to bunt, and hit with runners on.
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Ok… well half the team was terrible in the postseason. Looking at a few weeks means nothing. If it did, the Yankees would have signed Matsui to a huge contract after last year.
ac1 – “He needs to learn to bunt, and hit with runners on.”
These are largely random events, and have little bearing on how good or valuable a player is. A-Rod couldn’t hit in the playoffs, remember? Then he could. Then he couldn’t. Then he could.
You simply can’t take 46 PA’s of Gardner’s 1000 PA career and put it on a platform for comparison.
For the record… Crawford bats .253/.287/.422 in 87 PA’s in the playoffs. Not exactly a show stopper.
“Looking at a few weeks means nothing. If it did, the Yankees would have signed Matsui to a huge contract after last year…..”
….and exiled Nick Swisher.
Forget Lee and Crawford.
When all that money comes off the books, invest it in gold. Everybody wants it and it’s never been worth zero.
Gold!
Crawfords Lefty/righty splits are less than ideal also….especially if Granderson has pre K-Long magic relapses.
I’m looking in my book of baseball phrases and under “tore it up in 2010″ there was no picture of Brett Garner there. I did notice his picture under”tried to work too many walks with an 0-2 count”.
No hitter with minimal extra base power shoud be striking out 101 times in 477 at bats.
but can gold pitch?
No Kate, gold can’t pitch, but good pitching is gold.
GB7,
Gardner was the best LF in the league, had a .383 OBP, and 47 SB. That is an incredibly good season and exceeded my expectations by a lot.
oh nice one GB
Nobody knows anything about Gold:
http://www.baseball-reference......001—
“Why do you care so much about the insignificant amount of power that crawford has? 15 HR’s a year is not power.”
This is so boring. Crawford has consistently tracked between 70 and 100 points higher in SLG than Gardner. He has more power.
And when I say Gardner has not shown enough to project a Crawford-type career path, it doesn’t help your position to point out that Gardner has a higher OBP. They are similar in speed and fielding ability; they are not similar hitters.
Gardner is definitely worth more to this team than Crawford, in skill and salary. LIke i said, Gardner needs to work on a few more things, but for the money, he isn’t that far behind Crawford, and hopefully in 2011, Gardner is leading off.
why does everyone thing we need to pay every position on our team 15M+ a year. Gardner is good, and will get better. No need for Crawford. And Crawford is not worth anywhere close to 8 years at 15+ each.
WYH,
And when is it acceptable to say that Gardner has a higher OBP than Crawford? Are we still waiting for Brett to fall off the cliff?
and even better Tom!
Patrick December 1st, 2010 at 3:06 pm
GB7,
Gardner was the best LF in the league, had a .383 OBP, and 47 SB. That is an incredibly good season and exceeded my expectations by a lot
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He takes too many “stupid” pitches. He tries to draw walks in 0-2 counts. Walks for his talents are fine, but, not like that. Same with steals. He should have had at least 60, if not led the league. He stands there and waits and waits while the hitter wants him to run early and they end up in a hole. Patience is not always a virtue, especially with Gardner.
Who is this dork on OTL on ESPN dissing Jeter right now?
Do golden thongs count?
GB7,
I do agree that in some aspects Gardner needs to change his approach. But looking at his season as a whole, he really outperformed my expectations.
“Do golden thongs count?”
Is it used?
Why is Darren Woodson on ESPN talking about Jeter?
Don’t they have 75 baseball experts?
Patrick-
I am not arguing Crawford over Gardner. I’m not even advocating the Yanks get Crawford. I would rather they sign Lee, which is what I think will happen.
If the Yanks were to sign Crawford, I think it would be because they didn’t sign Lee. I think they would keep Gardner and trade Granderson or Swisher for a pitcher. And that would be OK by me.
I was simply responding to your original point 2, which was that Gardner is Crawford 2.0. I don’t think he is. Maybe he turns out to be a better hitter than Crawford (unlikely, IMO), but he will be a different type hitter.
ID tried to make more out of it, as he often does.
WYH,
He’s a different hitter but just like Crawford, Gardner generates a ton of value with speed and defense.
If the Yankees lose out on Lee I’d rather have the Yankees get Werth. HE’s a better player.
Just because Woodson played his whole career with the Cowboys. Who cares.
Or instead of buying an outfielder – save the money for next year.
Speaking of thongs, if I were Derek I would get this photo on a T-shirt and wear it to my next meeting with the Steins.
http://blog.silive.com/yankees....._jason.jpg
“Don’t they have 75 baseball experts?”
Yes, so long as you are using quotation fingers when you say “experts”,
LOL at Bronx Jeers comment.
“If the Yankees lose out on Lee I’d rather have the Yankees get Werth. HE’s a better player.”
That’s fine with me too.
“Or instead of buying an outfielder – save the money for next year.”
That’s not fine with me. If the Yanks don’t get Lee they will need to address the rotation. I don’t think filling it out from within will be a winner. I keep thinking back to the Yanks’ pitching in August and September.
looks like sunday night baseball will be a little better now without miller and morgan
much rather hear bobby v.
WYH,
Ok then trade for a pitcher. I think the team has prospects that would be better trade bait than Granderson/Gardner/Swisher.
Tom in N.J. December 1st, 2010 at 3:15 pm
“Do golden thongs count?”
Is it used?
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Not sure that’s a question that I’d ask with a bunch of smart asses around, Tom.
The WSJ has an article comparing Jeter’s contract to CEO contracts. http://online.wsj.com/article/.....DDLESecond
Since it’s behind a pay wall, i’ll quote the last 2 paragraphs
Absent from the Jeter controversy has been envy or raillery about the horrors of income inequality. Absent has been the lethargic assumption that national income is a fixed sum, so more for Mr. Jeter means less for schoolteachers. Absent has been the psychological malady that, in a world not short of injustices, causes sociology professors to lie awake obsessing over the difference between their incomes and those of other people.
Said one fan on a New York paper’s website: “As far as the money is concerned, I really don’t care what they pay him. It’s not my money.” If it were catching, this healthy-minded attitude toward the paychecks of our fellow man would make the world a better, happier place.
I’m not so sure of that, Patrick.
I like the banner ‘Waiting for Cliff Lee’, it reminds me of Waiting For Guffman….
WCYF – “Gardner has not shown enough to project a Crawford-type career path”
Why? You can’t possibly know this. The data available doesn’t even support it.
crawfords first full season in the majors (2003) he hit .281/.309/.362 with 5 HR’s and 55 SB’s.
to me, that looks EXACTLY like the season gardner just had in his first full year of service… with a much MUCH worse OBP (plate discipline is a decent indicator of future performance,
power is not).
Why do they even have to be similar hitters to be discussed? You keep harping on that point… does it matter? Gardner already displays 4 of the 5 tools Crawford does, only missing this mystical “power”.
Are you telling me that 75 points in SLG are worth the $18million difference in contracts?
I’m not so sure of that, Patrick.
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I AM sure of it because I just had a conference call with all 30 GM’s. I swear
Gardner had the same amount of bunt hits as Ichiro. And if you are telling me Ichiro doesn’t know how to handle the bat…
sorry i aimed that at the wrong person, was responding to WYH
Last year, the backup pitchers didn’t have a year’s worth of AAA experience, either. (they won’t be leaning on Mitre/Gaudin/Moseley to pull a heavy load in the rotation).
NYYs and Cashman will pull out all stops to bring one of Lee/Pettitte into NY…..probably both.
ID, if I had the interest or the energy I’d send you the Cliff Notes version of my discussion with Patrick. Maybe you could follow it then. But I don’t.
Gardner’s swing doesn’t suggest that he’ll ever hit for much power….that doesn’t matter as long as he gets on base 38% of the time and continues to be able to run like the wind. That changes if/when he can no longer do those things.
WYH – keep talking like you are above me.
You don’t have the energy because your point is baseless.
“WYH – keep talking like you are above me.”
I’m biting my tongue…
KenDavidoff Expect talks between #Yankees and Mariano Rivera to ramp up shortly. Shouldn’t be difficult to find common ground.
If Gardner doesn’t show improvement next year their patience will begin to run out.
If Gardner doesn’t show improvement next year their patience will begin to run out.
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What
There is a new thread, but instead of this way
it’s the other way.
It’s backwards day!
I know it’s his show but why is Mike on with Gov Patterson, all day, no less?
In answer to an earlier question, no I do not believe Gardner will ever hit 10-15 home runs. His swing is too slappy, and he has no leg drive. He is Posednick-like.
Mo…2 years for 36
Jeter..3 years for 54
Andy..1 year for 14
BTW….could it rain and wind blow any harder
WYH – i’m trying to understand why you think a certain way, and asking very fair questions.
you come back with “you are below me, go away”.
Please excuse yourself, but you are way off base.
Prior to today, I have been disgusted with Derek Jeter, or at least, his agent’s behavior.
Jeter wanted to be paid as one of the best shortstops in the game a decade ago. Now he wants to be paid as an icon. Ludicrous. He never once took less money to help the Yankees.
Jeter will resign with the Yankees at what the Yankees deem appropriate. Otherwise, Jeter will have valued himself above the Yankees. And no player is bigger than the New York Yankees.
However, even worse than Jeter is his personal trainer Jason Riley. I am good friends with Jason Riley, but I am disgusted with his comments that Jeter could play until he’s 43. By saying that, Riley is just trying to grow his own brand, “the Jason Riley brand.”
What Riley should say is: “I love Derek Jeter. Jeter is a great friend of mine and is a Hall of Famer. But at age 38, a player coming off his worst career season is likely in decline, unless he’s roided up like Barry Bonds. If I were the New York Yankees, I would give Jeter $10 million a year because that’s what he is worth at the most. Sorry Derek, you know I love ya, but that’s the truth.”
“you come back with “you are below me, go away”.
ID-
You said that, not me. I said you didn’t follow my conversation with Patrick, which you didn’t. I also said I wasn’t interested in repeating it, which I’m not.
“If Gardner doesn’t show improvement next year their patience will begin to run out”
Probably needs to strike out a little less, but otherwise he was a .380+ OBP guy who scored just under 100 runs from the 9 hole, while playing outstanding outfield defense. Your patience running short with that?
Garner did not hit for average, struck out too much for a slap hitter. If he wasn’t on the cheap, and doesn’t steal more bases, he would be replaced by an establihed OF. He is not established, he is still an unknown quantity, could get better or worse. Time will tell. Keeping someone because they are cost effective is stop gap at best.
WYH – Then since you don’t answer the questions (I read your whole conversation, I’ve been here all day) I will continue to assume that you equate 75 points of SLG with +$18mil/year. Fair?
# Mell December 1st, 2010 at 3:43 pm
“If Gardner doesn’t show improvement next year their patience will begin to run out”
Probably needs to strike out a little less, but otherwise he was a .380+ OBP guy who scored just under 100 runs from the 9 hole, while playing outstanding outfield defense. Your patience running short with that?
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he also did that with the best offense in baseball……really wonder what kind of player he would be on another team
“Then since you don’t answer the questions (I read your whole conversation, I’ve been here all day) I will continue to assume that you equate 75 points of SLG with +$18mil/year. Fair?
No. Where did I say I’d trade Gardner to make room for Crawford? Please include the time of that post since you read them all.
joeman – if anything I’d say that Gardner’s performance was fairly team independent… walk heavy, speed heavy… not exactly relying on protection from the rest of his lineup.
mick,
Gardner was really good in 2010 whether you believe it or not. His OBP was great, he was the best fielding LF in the league, he stole a pile of bases. Yeah he needs to cut down on the strikeouts and maybe get his average up a bit but overall he was very good last year. An above average outfielder for sure, not just a stopgap.
Gardner tried to walk so much with 2 strikes that he accidentally led all LFers in walks
And saw the most pitches per PA in baseball 
While hitting for the 24th highest average for an outfielder in the majors, and out on basing almost everyone ahead of him
And out stealing them
(((
and out defending them
Gardner’s one misstep in his game is power, and he doesn’t need it. He steals at the same attempt percentage as Crawford. Are we going to yell at Crawford if he signed here for 20 million to steal more? Crawford is like a statue out there! He only steals 25% of the time!
“he also did that with the best offense in baseball……really wonder what kind of player he would be on another team”
You think all that protection Jeter gave him inflated his numbers?
What I am saying is that if Gardner does not progress they will not be satisfied with him as the years advance. He really isn’t a good hitter yet. Most of his AB’s are K’s or BB’s, which account for the high OBP. They would have loved to platoon him with Kearns, if he could hit, or Thames, if he could field.
2011 will be a telling year for Gardner. We’ll see what he does. It’s all conjecture at this point as to whether he will excel in the future.
So Lee sent Kinsler a picture message of a dead deer? http://sports.espn.go.com/dall.....id=5871255 Is this supposed to mean his rejecting of the “Antlers” perhaps…
I think maybe some of you don’t understand what on base percentage means, but its the percentage of plate appearances where you reach base (H + BB + HBP). It means that regardless of how you feel Gardner’s at bats go, or he needs to hit for a higher average, or whatever, when he is up to the plate only one yankee last year had a higher percentage of not making an out than Gardner. Cano.
That means that more than any other Yankee except Cano, Gardner succeeded in reaching base without making an out, and some yankees significantly more! His approach works. If pitchers were going to figure him out they’d have done it already after 2008 and 2009. He rarely swung and missed in the zone, he rarely chased, and had more than 150 balls called strikes against him. Even with a heinous strike zone he walked more than any left fielder and led the yankees in BB%.
What I am saying is that if Gardner does not progress they will not be satisfied with him as the years advance. He really isn’t a good hitter yet. Most of his AB’s are K’s or BB’s
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He hit .277, he didn’t hit .200. So we can say that most of Jeter’s at bats ended in either a K or a GIDP? He did hit worse than Gardner.
He sounds like the ideal leadoff hitter. Why wasn’t he?
YankeesWFAN: Yanks announce Alfredo Aceves fractured left clavicle in bicycle accident, had surgery yesterday. Six weeks rest, 3 months full rehab
He sounds like the ideal leadoff hitter. Why wasn’t he?
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Because the Yankees were too cowardly to move Jeter down in the lineup.
He sounds like the ideal leadoff hitter. Why wasn’t he?
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Joe Girardi is not the sharpest tool in the shed
New Post: Surgery for Aceves and Gardner
If he walked more and got 150 hits and was more aggressive on the bases, that would be the improvement he needs. BTW, he just had surgery for wrist tendinitis, maybe that will help.
“He rarely swung and missed in the zone”
IIRC, he hadn’t actually swung and missed a pitch in the strikezone until July.
WYH – I never said you wanted to trade Gardner and sign Crawford, no need to get silly here. All I was looking for was clarification on why you believe Crawford’s lack of power was $15million better than Gardner’s lack of power. I understand they are slightly different hitters, but its not that drastic.
I wasn’t arguing with you, I was trying to get some questions answered. I was not “making a big deal” of it, as you said.