Back in New York with a few links
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 09, 2010 
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Managed to get home from Orlando without anyone offering me an insane contract. It’s pretty disappointing.
Carl Crawford has been the story of the past 24 hours or so. Cliff Lee will be the story for the next 24 hours or more.
In the background, there’s Russell Martin.
The Yankees have been vaguely linked to a handful of players. Some left-handed relievers. Some role players. Some bits and pieces that have been caught in this “wide net” Brian Cashman keeps talking about. Martin’s name, though, seems to have weight.
George King reports that the Yankees are not only interested, they’ve made an offer. Martin’s agent went on the record saying the Yankees have said they view Martin as a starting catcher. There are at least three teams in the bidding, and there could be a fourth offering a multi-year contract. The Yankees have plenty of internal options, but with none of them guaranteed to be a productive everyday catcher, the Yankees seem to be interested in adding one more piece. Martin is no sure thing himself, but the combination of youth and talent has him firmly on the radar.
• The Rangers apparently feel pretty good after today’s meeting with Cliff Lee. What does that mean in the big picture? I have no idea.
• Good stuff from Ken Davidoff who has the complete breakdown of Derek Jeter’s contract.
• Over at MLBTradeRumors, the consensus seems to be that the Yankees are still the favorites for Lee.
• Baseball Prospectus breaks down the Rule 5 draft. I get the sense that the Yankees think Robert Fish is considerably more likely to make the team than Daniel Turpen, but obviously they’re both wild cards.
• Included in that Baseball Prospectus piece is the rumor that the Yankees took Turpen only because he was thought to be on the list of players to be named later in the Adrian Gonzalez trade. Frankly, that might hurt the Padres more than the Red Sox.
Sign him.
Chad – you will get more money than George Costanza!
Included in that Baseball Prospectus piece is the rumor that the Yankees took Turpen only because he was thought to be on the list of players to be named later in the Adrian Gonzalez trade. Frankly, that might hurt the Padres more than the Red Sox.
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Haha they did the same thing to the Mets when they traded Billy Wagner to the Red Sox. They put a claim on Chris Carter who was the PTBNL in that deal. That delayed him being traded to the Mets. That’s what you get for helping the Sox!
• The Rangers apparently feel pretty good after today’s meeting with Cliff Lee. What does that mean in the big picture? I have no idea.
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Could be for PR so they can get the fans hating Lee quicker if he’s gone.
# incarceratedbob
*BREAKING NEWS* Cliff Lee ‘s Wife will play a major role in the “DECISION” the next 12-24 Hr’s – Wife does not want to move to NY 10 minutes ago via web
* Reply
# incarcerated bob incarceratedbob
*BREAKING NEWS* Source indicates Cliff Lee loves the Yankees offer (Obviously) but his Wife wants to stay in Texas – Stay tuned 11 minutes ago via web
* Reply
# incarcerated bob incarceratedbob
*BREAKING NEWS* Source indicates Cliff Lee is torn between taking the Rangers new offer (With alot of perks for his fam) or Yankees 7Year
Braunecker has handled this all perfectly. Textbook.
Rangers CEO Chuck Greenberg, assistant GM Thad Levine and owner Ray Davis met with Cliff Lee, his wife and agent for approximately 90 minutes Thursday in Arkansas and laid out their plans for trying to persuade the left-hander to sign with the Rangers.
Greenberg said the Rangers have Lee a menu of multiple offers and now must wait and see what Lee wants to do. Greenberg declined to get into specifics of years or dollars.
“We felt very good about the discussion,” Greenberg said. “It’s a very important decision they’re going to be making as a family. We wanted to put our best foot forward. I think we did that to the best of our abilities. I believe we made an impression on them.”
Greenberg said the Rangers decided to make a third visit to Lee after outfielder Carl Crawford agreed to terms with the Boston Red Sox late Wednesday night.
And much to the chagrin of Rangers fans, there was no timetable put on Lee to make a decision.
“We didn’t press them,” Greenberg said. “We gave them a considerable amount of new information to reflect upon. Take whatever time they feel in necessary to come up with an informed decision.”
Read more: http://sportsblogs.star-telegr.....z17fkTRAg8
I’ve heard incarcerated bob’s track record is piss poor.
so I think those tweets are a good thing for the Yanks chances.
There is so much riding on this Lee situation:
The 2011 rotation
The 2011 quest for number 28
Cashman’s legacy
joeman’s reputation
This whole negotiation is a friggin circus..
Chad-
Isn’t it unusual for the Yankees to leak what the final offer is to Lee in terms of dollars. Was that the agent leaking the info to get the Rangers close to the same offer perhaps because Lee wants to remain a Ranger?
Lee said he would think about the contract offer and then emailed Greenberg a picture of a dead deer.
Greenberg gives Cliff Lee menu of multiple options for him and his family, unfortunately wife picked 1 of each from menu and ate them all.
aandro # Greenberg: We made a substantial commitment in years and dollars. less than a minute ago via TweetDeck
Incarcerated bob had LeBron going to the Knicks and Girardi going to the Cubs.
I’m sure he has his finger on the pulse of the Lee negotiations.
PTBNL in the Gonzalez deal is probably Sean Coyle.
Braunecker is not leaking the info, the Yankees are. Think about who is tweeting on it–almost all Yankee or NY beat writers.
The only Texas leak was Evan Grant of the Rangers beat, which e quickly pulled.
What does that tell you?
This is reminiscent of the AJ Burnett talks with Braunecker 3 years ago. AJ took the cash and years over Atlanta, as we recall.
Another thought related to AJ and this saga…
Does the “unknown event” that happened to AJ (and maybe his wife) have anything to do with the apparent reluctance (if there is any) of his wife to move to NY?
If Russell is everybody’s favorite Martin…
Why did the Dodgers release him?
SJ44,
I thought you said that Texas wouldn’t have the coin to offer Lee a contract
“Troy Renck of the Denver Post reports that the Rays have some interest in Jason Giambi.”
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who has the higher OPS in ’11? giambi or crawford?
“If Russell is everybody’s favorite Martin…
Why did the Dodgers release him?”
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I believe they would have had to pick up an option? and pay him more than they were willing…
Lee is going back to Texas, let’s face facts
correction:
they’d have had to offer him arb and risk paying him close to $6M
What’s the “new information”?
It’s about Roswell, isn’t it?
“We wanted to put our best foot forward. I think we did that to the best of our abilities. I believe we made an impression on them.””
This isn’t a cotillion. It’s a business deal. No one is giving you points for your “best foot” and the “impression” you convey at the end stage of the process.
And a “menu” of choices from Texas isn’t likely to be better than the multiple offers the yankees presented earlier, including one for 7 years.
That’s really what this gets down to. It’s not soft “impressions” or how “good” the discussion went. Either the Rangers pony up the cash or not.
Yanks are all in on Lee – even the Knicks had a backup plan of Amar’e if Lebron did not come – worried for Yanks – this could be a set back hard to overcome unless there is another ace that is available not named Greinke that Cashman can acquire.
They could have shipped him to NYY for Cervilli… Stead they got nada…
# coney1 December 9th, 2010 at 9:42 pm
Lee is going back to Texas, let’s face facts
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yep
Wonder if Braunecker is on the phone with Cashman right now.
If Yanks come back with Martin…
They must have a major trade in the works!
Yeah, I have to say at this point it’s not looking good. I really thought he would come to NY, especially after CC said something to the effect of “I don’t think we’ll have to do much recruiting.”
And I can’t help but wonder how big a role those idiot “fans” who supposedly spit on Lee’s wife played. Thanks guys.
CC has got to talk to Lee. If i remember CC and his wife didnt want to live in Ny not to long ago.
This isn’t free agency, it’s an auction for Lee as Yanks and Rangers go back and forth.
If the Yanks view Martin as a starting catcher, either they don’t think Montero is going to cut it at catcher or they are going to trade Montero if they don’t sign Lee.
I don’t see a third alternative.
I think 168 x 7 does it.
Texas probably can’t go beyond 140 AAV (if that–I bet 125-130 is their real limit, and they are really pushing it now). If I’m their partners (the silent ones who really put up the capital on this purchase), I’d be pissed if they went further–then it would be even longer to see any return on my investment.
So as Texas I go down there and say “We’ll give you 20 x 7 but a better life than mean old NY. And you can go duck huntin’ with Nolan! Some things are worth more than money, boy!”
Cliff Lee moved himself 3 times in 18 months, pitched his butt off in the PS. Would he leave $30 million on the table? Would you?
‘I believe they would have had to pick up an option? and pay him more than they were willing’
====================
You mean the Dodgers didn’t want to pay him while he recovers from a fractured hip which is a serious injury for a catcher.
I don’t understand the panic going on here. If the Yankees deal is substantially better, he will come– the players union will pressure him to do so–if the offers are relatively equal, he’ll probably stay in an area close to where he grew up. It really is that simple. Blaming this on fans etc is ludicrous. A don’t think for a second that Cash has no backup plan. These are the Yankees for God’s sake.
“I don’t see a third alternative.”
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Martin’s agent is lying?
I think this whole Lee situation is totally overblown. He’s got talent but I don’t think he is unbeatable. Who is? Making a seven year commitment to a player that appears on the field at best once every five days barring some sort of injury. We need him but we will contend without him.
Zambrano can’t be long for Cubs?
If the Rangers were so confident they wouldn’t of held a conference call tonight. The call was just to tell their fans they tried. They should of just had their one beat writer write on twitter that they made an offer and then if Lee signs with the Yanks have a conference call then to say they tried, but not before.
Garza from Rays available…
Porcello from Le Tigres?
Straw:
Excellent take. Of course there is a backup plan.
wake me up when plan C starts
Managed to get home from Orlando without anyone offering me an insane contract. It’s pretty disappointing.
***********
Chad, you need a new agent!
Did anyone else mention taht the KC Royals have signed Melky Cabrera?
Who was it on here that kept harping on the fact that Brett Gardner was horrible and Melky was a future star?
“Martin’s agent is lying?”
Hasn’t been denied, has it? I don’t see why he’d lie as to a direct conversation between the two parties because it wouldn’t have much persuasive power, would it?
“He’s got talent but I don’t think he is unbeatable. Who is?”
—————-
and a hitter who only gets out 70% of the time is apparently worth $20M/yr this offseason.
# BD (Boston Dave) December 9th, 2010 at 9:55 pm
Did anyone else mention taht the KC Royals have signed Melky Cabrera?
Who was it on here that kept harping on the fact that Brett Gardner was horrible and Melky was a future star?
—————————————————————
I said they both stunk …so I’m half right
“If the Yanks view Martin as a starting catcher, either they don’t think Montero is going to cut it at catcher or they are going to trade Montero if they don’t sign Lee. ”
Wave-
I don’t know how much we can put on what Martin’s agent has said. To my knowledge the Yankees themselves have not said Martin would be the starter.
If the Yankees were looking for a definite starter they would have been looking more systematically and not just put all of their eggs in the basket of a catcher coming off a hip fracture +/- some kind of labral tear.
Also, if they saw him as a definite starter they would have just traded for him with the dodgers rather than being put off from the deal.
If you really are looking for a definite starter I don’t see how you let so much ride on a guy with the kind of questions Martin has and not even try to look at a guy like Olivo.
“Hasn’t been denied, has it? I don’t see why he’d lie as to a direct conversation between the two parties because it wouldn’t have much persuasive power, would it?”
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I think the Yankees are busy with this Lee stuff.
It gives him leverage against other teams making offers for Martin. The thing the Red Sox have going for them with Martin is more playing time. If his agent says the Yankees view him as a starter also it could motivate the Sox to raise their game.
““If the Yanks view Martin as a starting catcher, either they don’t think Montero is going to cut it at catcher or they are going to trade Montero if they don’t sign Lee. ””
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why is it so hard to believe that the Yanks might… just maybe… ease Montero into the big leagues behind the dish?
I’d almost prefer he catch maybe 45-60 games this season so he isn’t “rushed” (unless he goes all Buster Posey on us.)
Martin had a hip injury and missed the last 8 weeks of the season and didn’t play well before it….let Bos have him…
incarceratedbob
*BREAKING NEWS* Another source text me “Cliff Lee is struggling with decision & will make decision within 36 HR’S” Yanks vs Rangers Part 3
incarceratedbob
*BREAKING NEWS* Source: CC Sabathia made contact with Cliff Lee 2night & is trying to persuade Lee’s wife to come to NY – Yankees have hope
CB-
It just seems odd that Martin’s agent would make a positive statement about the Yankee’s plans if it wasn’t so. The Yankees know what they said so I don’t see how it would help. If Martin’s agent had said an unspecified team viewed Martin as a starting catcher that would be different, but he didn’t.
Also, IMO the Yanks did not think the bidding on Martin would become this spirited. The were worried they’d have to pay $5M+ in arbitration – now it appears that’s where the bidding is at anyway. I think that surprised the Yanks but if the are still in it there must be a reason. I can only think of two.
what are your two reasons Wave your hat
they want Martin to play 80+ games at catcher for them
they want to drive up the price of Martin for the Sawx
LOL enough with the incarcerated bob BS! I doubt that guy has one legitimate source. He “breaks” stories all the time and 99% of them turn out to be false. Basically, he finds a rumor and tries to break news on it. I’m honestly shocked that so many people buy into anything he says. How in the world would he possibly have enough connections in every sport and on every team? Use your heads people…
last two seasons Martin has had 12 total HR’s,79 RBI’s and a .249 BA….. could he have come off his meds after 08
Wave
What would the Yankees havd to gain by denying it?
Mike Ri-
Check my 9:50pm post.
One other thing about the Rangers negotiations today and this press conference.
Since taking over Nolan Ryan has had no qualms about being seen as the face of that franchise (especially on TV).
He has eclipsed Jon Daniels and is seen as the architect of that team. Greenberg is a complete afterthought.
It’s very likely that it was Ryan’s pull with MLB that helped allow the Greenberg group to buy the Rangers. He was likely a major reason why the Rangers got the money to trade for Lee while they were in bankruptcy.
But all of a sudden, on the most crucial day of negotiations, when the Rangers are finally making their final formal offer for Lee Ryan is nowhere to be seen? Greenberg leads the rangers group going to Arkansas. Greenberg fronts the press conference.
That seems very precarious. All we’ve heard from Nolan today was that quote of his from the morning where he didn’t sound particularly positive on the rangers chances.
This has become personal for Texas, Ryan, and Greenberg – resigning Lee is about their ego, their machismo, their manhood – this is about the inferiority complex they have always had about the Yankees – and beating them in the ALCS has only emboldened them. The Rangers appear to have no limit when it comes to Lee. And it is not about signing Lee, it is about outbidding the Yankees. It is personal for Texas. For the Yankees, it is business.
As for the Martin deal, I have a feeling he signs with the Red Sox, where he is pretty much guaranteed a starting job. If he signs with the Yankees, he likely ends up behind Montero.
“What would the Yankees havd to gain by denying it?”
It would look like they were colluding with Martin’s agent against the Sox. That sounds clever but I don’t think it is something the Yanks would want.
Maybe the Yankees are hoping to give Montero a couple more months in AAA and use Martin as the starting catcher just to begin the season. That way Montero’s clock starts later (they gain an extra year of arbitration) and Martin can be used as a trade chip at the deadline.
Also how many times has Cash stressed competition?
At worst this keeps some doubt in Monteros head so he knows he has to earn it.
CB-
Greenberg has more skin in the game. If he makes a trip it is going to impress Lee as to the seriousness of the Rangers.
Not to say I think Lee is going to Texas.
I realize I’m late to the party here, and this might just be my NY cynicism talking here…..
But, who calls a press conference to say they tried hard? Sounds like the Texas crew is at their limit, knows they’re short, and are playing emotional cards to Lee, and saying to their fans that they tried real hard, but the big, bad New Yorkers came in and waved all their Wall Street/ill-gotten monies.
Which, is what I thought would happen all along. Texas would come up short, but close enough to satisfy their fans in Dallas that they tried real hard; please buy more tickets.
In the Godfather, there is one scene after a mob hit where the guy says leave the gun take the canoli. We can use this in the Lee bidding and say leave the wife take the Yankee money. Come on Cliff. NY wants you.
RS – when was the last time the Yankees cared about an arbitration clock?
Yankees will beat whatever Texas puts out there financially. Too bad. Offering Justin Smoak when the Yankees had a deal with Seattle settled was pretty scummy too.
CB
I said the same thing in the last thread. Greenberg= Hank and Hank doesn’t get to preside over important press conferences.
# joeman December 9th, 2010 at 10:07 pm
last two seasons Martin has had 12 total HR’s,79 RBI’s and a .249 BA….. could he have come off his meds after 08
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I’m presuming you mean PEDS ! If so, you are correct !
Trading Smoak for Lee was an all-in move for Texas.
Losing out on resigning Lee, after just missing a World series title with him, would be a pretty substantial loss.
Texas will be a very good team with or without Lee, IMO. But if Smoak develops into an all-star and they don’t retain Lee, it will only compound this offseason into the memories of Rangers fans.
BREAKING NEWS!!!!! This just in… Mrs Lee final statement to his man… It’s the Yankees or ME
Kansas City is finally interesting and much improved!
http://kansascity.royals.mlb.c.....38;c_id=kc
# 4 NYY December 9th, 2010 at 10:14 pm
# joeman December 9th, 2010 at 10:07 pm
last two seasons Martin has had 12 total HR’s,79 RBI’s and a .249 BA….. could he have come off his meds after 08
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I’m presuming you mean PEDS ! If so, you are correct !
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sure do & thank you
Plan B!
TestaDuda @AndrewMarchand #Yankees announced if they fail to sign Cliff Lee they’ll buy the Florida Marlins – for about $10M less than offered to Lee.
Wave-
I just don’t get the picture that Martin is being pursued as a definite 120 game + starter. At least that’s what I think of as a “starting catcher.”
His game was in steep decline the past few years. And then he has an awful injury. And this is the guy the Yanks have locked on as a starter even though they decline to pass on him?
I don’t know. It sounded initially that the Sox wanted Martin to play multiple positions so I do think his agent had a vested interest in inflating Martin’s role.
If the yanks said they were looking for someone to start 80 games and split with Montero I could see his agent saying that Martin was offered the “starting role.”
I think there’s some ambiguity in what “starting catcher” may mean for the yankees this season because there are a number of contingencies.
But I may be off on that.
Also – if they don’t sign Lee then there’s a real chance they could trade Montero regardless of the Martin situation. That I agree with.
The Yankees are going to take a hit out on Lees wife?
Sounds like a job for Eduardo.
The Yankees might not like the idea of having an untested rookie being the starting catcher, and having Cervelli as a starter isn’t what they want either.
Posada will be there as well, but supposedly mainly as DH, which seems about right given his issues the past few seasons. This give Montero a chance to break in bit by bit, rather than being thrown to the sharks from the beginning.
“RS – when was the last time the Yankees cared about an arbitration clock?”
obviously they wouldn’t if they felt Montero was 100% ready, but they might think he needs a little more seasoning. And the fact remains that Martin could be a very good trade chip if he even puts up average production for a catcher.
“Greenberg= Hank”
You could not be more wrong. Do some google research on the Texas ownership and you’ll get a clearer understanding of the ownership structure.
Mrs Lee need to talk to sj to learn where all the good pizzarias are so she can fatten herself. Why be thin?
Have you seen Lee’s wife? Yikes. She should be making zero demands… ever.
CB-
I don’t know either. The quote from Martin’s agent floored me.
Haha I would love to know what incarcerated bob’s “sources” are that hear the personal conversations between Cliff Lee and his wife. Maybe its the family dog! Bark one time for yes, and two times for no!
Any news in the last 3 hrs. while I was out???
What was Bob incarcerated for?
take her over to Paula Pizza
My understanding of Texas is that Greenberg and Ryan put in very little of their own cash, and that there are some fairly deep but silent partners who are looking for a return on investment fairly soon with milestone payments as early as 2012.
Wave, what is your understanding?
Joe from LI, that is my thoughts on this.
It just seems like amateur hour with the Rangers and this whole Lee deal.
Asking his agent, Braunecker, what it would take to sign Lee, holding a PC to say they (I’m guessing) finally made their offer(s) to Lee and that they really, really, really want him.
Yanks don’t send Hank to the final meeting. Greenberg obviously not Hank. And did any of the Rangers organization not meet with Lee? “Costanza, Costanza, hey did you meet Mr. Lee? “
# Melk Man December 9th, 2010 at 10:20 pm
What was Bob incarcerated for?
______________________________________________________-
For telling lies.
Ok I’ll say it…Martin came off roids after the 08 season….thus his downfall in stats and his injury
What was Bob incarcerated for?
________
Tweeting while intoxicated.
“Greenberg has more skin in the game. If he makes a trip it is going to impress Lee as to the seriousness of the Rangers.”
That’s technically true but most of his hide takes the form of debt. Greenberg is not a guy whose deep pockets are going to hold sway. This is not Ted Lerner.
Nolan Ryan has cast himself as the Rangers. How many times did Greenberg speak or get interviewed or appear on TV during the series?
It was no accident that Ryan was sitting field level with the ex-president rather than in the owners box. That was for TV.
And the Rangers are trying hard to sell Lee on the whole “Texas” angle to compensate for the money.
I don’t see the guy from Pittsburgh being the ideal candidate to talk to Lee about being close to Arkansas and hunting deer, etc.
Ryan is Texas. If you’re selling a pitcher on intangibles and “perks” of Dallas there would be no one more suited than Ryan.
Wave
Loose cannon with his mouth who got the organization into hot water because of it is Greenberg = Hank.
Not the public face of ownership is Greenberg= Hank.
If the Yankees are smart Hank and Levine are hog tied in a basement somewhere until Lee makes a decision.
What was Bob incarcerated for?
________
Beating the life out of a Patriots fan.
CB
Got it. Ryan is distancing himself for PR purposes. I think they know they lost this one.
They have a good team with a good future. They shouldn’t mess it up just yet with a long term commitment that can screw them. Yankees can deal with the risk of the last few years of a long contract (think Randy Johnson age 41). Not so sure with Texas.
“If the Yankees are smart Hank and Levine are hog tied in a basement somewhere until Lee makes a decision.”
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If I had to bet, Levine came up with the idea to give Lee 3 different offers to choose from.
Ryan was prob ready to put someone in a head lock over these negotiations so they left him home. Ryan=Hank
The Rangers ownership structure is both very strange and complicated.
But I agree with Pat – Ryan is clearly their public face and primary representative. Ryan is not the money man or the man who controls equity but he has been their public face and primary speaker on anything related to baseball.
Greenberg could not have purchased that franchise given the limited equity he had to work with without the influence of an insider like Ryan. Especially when taking on someone who has real cash like Cuban.
Nolan Ryan = Felix the Gardner?
It didn’t sound like Braunecker was too happy with Ryan this morning.
Maybe the Rangers were afraid he was going to Larry Lucchino these negotiations.
How much do you think it’s burning Nolan Ryan’s tush that Cliff Lee is being offered all this money and is holding his Rangers up for more.
I think they’re keeping Nolan away because he might explode and tell him 5-6 years is enough and if you don’t like it get off my team.
I feel for Jon Daniels. Sounded like he was interested in the Mets job but his team got into the WS and killed the chance for him. He’s going to hate that job. Already too many cooks in the kitchen.
LGY – have a link for that?
Grant: # Rangers dramatic change: Wed. night, they wanted figure from Lee to sign. By Thursday a.m., they rushed to make their own offer. 33 minutes ago via web
Did they honestly think Braunecker was going to to give them a figure?
Seems like the Rangers are really scrambling here.
Here is my question:
If Lee told the rangers to give an offer and that he wouldn’t respond to “what will it take”……assuming the media got that right…..does that not signal he isn’t giving a hometown discount?
Pittsburgh – That is my understanding of the Texas ownership deal, also. That Ryan and Greenberg have little of their own money tied up in the team, and used a lot of loans from private investors, and some banks, to make up the bulk of the purchase price. They used the new TV deal as collateral for some of the loans. Also, that at least some of the private investors have contractual guarantees of at least partial repayment in the short term.
How the Texas group views these debts, and their timetable for paying them off, in the context of signing Lee and competing and thus generating revenue, is something only they know.
“LGY – have a link for that?”
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A link for what?
Lee’ wife….yikes!
Braunecker new name, “The Big Squeeze”. The guy is a masterful agent who is about as adept at squeezing every last dollar out of ballclubs as I have ever seen.
Your Levine take.
CB -
Are you saying because they don’t believe Lee will choose them, they sent someone other than Ryan so that Ryan won’t be tainted with the failure of the negotiation (if it fails)?
But if it succeeds, if Lee does choose them, you would expect Ryan to make that announcement?
Ryan and the Rangers would crap themselves if they actually won out on this whole Lee thing. I still don’t think they can afford the money that they are purposing. Deep down they are hoping that New York bails them out and takes Lee.
“Your Levine take.”
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http://yankees.lhblogs.com/201.....nt-1655330
Did they just completely shut off Daniels from this process or something? You would think he would guide these new owners through this process and know how/when to make an offer and how to negotiate.
Lee and Pettitte are a package deal. No Lee = No Pettitte…..then what?
That’s better sourced than a typical Heyman tweet.
The story from someone who was on the conference call.
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-.....id=5904569
LGY – my bad, thought you heard that somewhere.
“If Lee told the rangers to give an offer and that he wouldn’t respond to “what will it take”……assuming the media got that right…..does that not signal he isn’t giving a hometown discount?”
Carlo-
Those were my thoughts as well. Without some target number it’s hard to see how a “discount” could be formally discussed.
That’s the kind of thing you’d have to talk about explicitly and haggle over to the dollar.
If Lee agrees to a “discount” then the next question is how big is that discount going to be. That still has to be negotiated.
That’s part of why that whole we met for 90 minutes seemed so odd to me.
If the Rangers didn’t flat out match the yankees offer the Rangers and Lee would have a ton of things to talk about that could not be resolved in 90min.
Nor would you be calling a press conference later that night to state you’ve made your offer as that offer is really a process. And from what it sounds like, the Rangers really didn’t make much of a formal offer until today and instead were trying to get a number from Lee.
The Rangers trying to get a number from Lee was their indirect way of asking for a discount. It’s essentially the “minimum” floor that Lee would require to make concessions to be in Texas.
And Lee and Braunecker shot down Texas on that approach.
It was Randy Levine who came up with the point system that resulted in adding the 4th year of Jeter’s deal.
He’s not a popular guy. However, he has made the franchise a LOT of money.
That’s why he has the powerbase he has within the organization.
Cash and Girardi both publicly admitted that Andy wants them to get Lee… you figure the two are intertwined.
At this point though, what does Lee have left to think about? He knows we will make the best offer and likely already have. Unless he is legitimately considering taking less to stay with the Rangers, why is this decision so agonizing for him? Unless he thinks the longer he waits, the more $$ he can squeeze out of us, especially if his agent starts leaking things about how he might take a discount to stay in Texas and such…
Amber Sabathia and Kristen Lee, good friends since the days their husbands were teammates in Cleveland, constantly keep in touch. And though Amber tries to give the couple its space — knowing full well what the free-agency process is like after going through it two years ago — she does drop in her own sales pitches from time to time.
“I tell her I have her house right down the street,” Amber said with a smile, even though she wasn’t kidding.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....8;c_id=mlb
When Nolan asked Bruanecker how much it would take, he should have merely referenced the Yankees most recent offer as a starting point.
Fortunately, This whole rodeo should be over shortly.
Here’s a link discussing the Texas ownership structure:
http://www.bizofbaseball.com/i.....;Itemid=39
Greenberg outranks Ryan, although Ryan is more involved day-to-day. As Managing Partner and CEO it makes perfect sense that Greenberg visited Lee.
Anyone care to wager that when Lee announces he is joining the Yankees, Gammons or Olney report that the next highest offer was 5 years and $80 mm. Will be completely fabricated, but a necessary move to make themselves feel better.
That’s a good story pat.
Many fans don’t realize how difficult a decision this can be for a player and his family.
Fans get emotional and want immediate resolutions to complex issues.
However, it’s sometimes more effective to let the player breathe and give he and his family the space and time to make a decision.
Doreen-
I don’t know anymore about this than you do. It’s just my impression.
If you’re trying to rope in a huge free agent why would you not send the guy who has made it very clear that he is the one running the entire franchise from a baseball standpoint?
John Daniels also did not go to the meeting today.
So neither the president nor the GM goes to the final negotiation? That’s just strange. To me that doesn’t seem like a negotiation that can be very practical in terms of getting a deal done.
This is especially true if your trying to sell Lee on factors external to dollars. The Rangers two primary baseball people did not attend this critical negotiation. No baseball people other than an assistant GM who very well might be the contracts guy.
Perhaps they now view it as a business deal so let’s send in the professional business people? But I don’t see Nolan Ryan agreeing to step aside when the team he is part owner of is big game hunting for the first time in the free agent market.
But this is what Greenberg said tonight:
“”He had a great experience here and we have thoroughly enjoyed having him here, and I think he feels very comfortable with the guys and very much appreciated by the entire organization,” Greenberg said. “I think he’d be very comfortable calling it home. It’s a difficult decision. Our goal was to make the case and try to make it easier for him.”"
I just don’t get “make the case.” It’s a business negotiation. It’s about value and money.
It’s not about the lawyer from Pittsburgh trying to make a persuasive case or argument about living in Texas.
Just strikes me as very peculiar that Ryan has gone away and Daniels isn’t present. Not the best way to make an argument outside of money.
“That’s better sourced than a typical Heyman tweet.”
——————
I pride myself on my thoroughness. Was confirmed by both the pizza delivery guy and my crazy neighbor.
Lee and his agent have known since the 1st day of free agency what the deal would be…stay in Texas for less money or go to the Yanks for the most money. Of course there was a chance another team would get involved and make an offer. It really shouldn’t take this long to make a decision unless he really wants to stay there and is considering how much money he would leave on the table. He said that he loved playing on the Phillies but he wouldn’t give them a discount to stay there so I doubt he would leave about $30m on the table to return to Texas.
Yank 1
Lee has a lot to think about. It’s his future ,his families future and more directly the next 7 years of their lives. Kinda a big deal. Also Texas didn’t go to Arkansas for a third meet just to go through the motions. The Yankees obviously bid higher else Lee would have picked already. He or his family prob wanted Texas to a degree because they wouldn’t have to relocate which can be scary. But the quwstion is now can they leave that money and the chance to win every year just to be comfortable.
Yank1, what motive would Lee have to rush things along? The Yankee offer wasn’t set with a deadline. The Yankees supposedly upped their offer, including more years and money without the Rangers even putting in a formal bid.
If that was going on and YOU were on the receiving end, would you say OK, enough already, I don’t want any more money?
In this case Braunecker knows the Yankees wants and desires. He also has the Rangers probably helping him get an even bigger paycheck for Lee by their “staying in it”.
The more they wait the more nervous the parties get, it could be enough to have a current offer upped even more. If not, the only thing that happened was some time passed.
“So neither the president nor the GM goes to the final negotiation? That’s just strange. To me that doesn’t seem like a negotiation that can be very practical in terms of getting a deal done.”
CB-
Greenberg is Ryan’s boss.
“Anyone care to wager that when Lee announces he is joining the Yankees, Gammons or Olney report that the next highest offer was 5 years and $80 mm.”
—————-
or they will say the Yankees are trying to buy a championship. and that although the Sox still have the best team, they should sign Scott Downs, Balfour, and Feliciano, trade for Jose Reyes and sign him to a longterm deal, and trade for Zack Greinke.
Hey, I know that the Lee affair is anxiety producing for us fans. I feel it myself, believe me. However, look at it from Lee’s perspective.
This is the first, and likely the last, time he will experience the FA thing. This, after being traded three times in the past two years, despite his winning the Cy Young award and being proclaimed one of the best pitchers in baseball. He’s traded, his life uprooted, with no consideration of him. Yeah, that’s the life of a professional baseball player without a no-trade clause. But, if nothing else, it showed Lee and his wife that it’s a business, and the players mere “assets”.
Now, for the first time, he’s in the driver’s seat. It’s his time to cash in, set his family up for not just his lifetime, but his kids’ and their kids. Also, he gets to pick where he and his wife will live.
Can anybody really blame him for taking his time, to make sure he gets all the offers, all the money he wants, and the quality of life in whatever part of the country he wants?
I’m never going to be in a similar situation, but, I imagine I’d go about it a bit slowly and deliberately, also.
JD, with Lee having been traded around so much lately, I doubt that relocating is all that big a deal for him and his family. This is about maximizing leverage. That point, I think has been reached, the Yanks gave a bigger offer – at least according to reports. Its possible that a little more could be had, but I think this has been played to the hilt.
Well if there is no decision tonight or tomorrow, probably going to roll over into next week.
CB -
I’m not sure I agree with you. The money is going to be big, no matter who gives it to him, and even it he takes less from Texas.
I think all you’ve got left is lifestyle, comfort levels, etc.
Unless Lee is truly “all about the money,” in which case it’d be a waste of time, I guess.
Plus, isn’t that part of what Cashman did when he visited Lee the first time, before making an offer? Selling the Yankees, so to speak? And when he visited the Sabathias? And anytime a team has a couple come in and shows them the town (I’m thinking of the Mets and what they did to court Tom Glavine).
CB, does it seem to you that now that Ryan has served his purpose and Greenberg has somewhat gotten control of the team that was purchased based on the Ryan name that he’s trying to push Ryan out?
Joe-
Normally I would totally agree with what you said about allowing Lee to set the pace.
In a case like this there are numerous other significantly important items which are “contingent” upon what Lee decides.
Because of those potential contingencies Lee will need to decide very soon IMO.
I wish him the best of luck on his choice, and
I hope it will be the Yankees.
I expect the answer will come very soon.
Sherman says the Twins have actually received inquiries on ace Francisco Liriano from the Yankees and others, but a team official can’t imagine moving the lefty.
This is just one of the things that happened that some people might not know about.
Read this at mlbtraderumors.com
With the kind of money that this will give Lee, I don’t think it would be that hard for him to live anywhere in the world he wants to during the off season. During the season they are on the road so much that having the family live near the stadium isn’t that big a deal.
Being 1 hour or 3-4 hours flight from home isn’t that big a deal. Its not like he would be commuting every day. Its a straw man argument about liking life in Texas. He could still live in Texas if he liked it so much, and have a nice penthouse apartment in NYC.
Doreen-
I agree with you. You can tell who is all about the money, and who enjoys the money, but wants to play for a team that wants to win
Werth and Crawford jumped at the best offer as soon as it came in
“Greenberg is Ryan’s boss.”
Wave-
I complete understand that.
But I also know organizational charts are often more functional on paper than in real life.
I would absolutely expect Greenberg to be at the negotiations. But I would also fully expect Ryan to be there.
You know what was also interesting about the meeting?
Three people went on behalf of the rangers? Greenberg and the assistant GM.
Who was the third? Ray Davis who is co-chair of the board and one of the major private investors.
I’m sorry but if the “owner” has to bring in an investor with him to a meeting to get a deal done well then that’s not a real strong owner from a financial point of view.
As you I’m sure you well know, board chairs who are not also executives don’t generally have operational responsibility.
The Rangers are trying to sell Lee on trading money for a Texas life style. It strikes me as strange that both Ryan and Greenberg would not be there, especially as who is technically the “boss” has often looked very differently in the public eye than it does on the org chart.
Doreen,
Look at it this way…if Cashman already sweet-talked you and did his thing, then wouldn’t it be more impressive if Steinbrenner himself showed up the next time carrying the offer? That’s how Texas played it. Ryan did his selling and the big boss went in for the kill.
I am sure the Twins would look for a similar package from the Yankees as was discussed in the Johan saga. One stud young pitcher (Hughes at the time) an OF (Melky at the time) and another stud young prospect. Too much if the Yankees get Lee.
If not as discussed before, all of the minor leaguers and some on the current big league roster better have there bags packed.
The beauty about a deal for Liriano is that its unlikely the Twins request Montero given their catching situation.
“Plus, isn?t that part of what Cashman did when he visited Lee the first time, before making an offer? Selling the Yankees, so to speak? And when he visited the Sabathias? And anytime a team has a couple come in and shows them the town (I?m thinking of the Mets and what they did to court Tom Glavine).”
Except Lee already played for the Rangers and the organization keeps telling the world how much the Lee family loves Texas so what more do they need to tell them other than a dollar amount?
Doreen – (I know you addressed this to CB, hope you don’t mind my two cents) – I think most pro athletes, and I think Lee has indicated this in the past, go for the dollars. Yes, we can think of exceptions, like Greg Maddux going to Atlanta for a lesser deal than what the Yanks offered him. But, most of them go for the most money.
Look at Carl Crawford. He loved Tampa, and would have been a real good fit in LA/Anaheim. Boston? They apparenty ponied up 34M more than the Angels, so hello Fenway.
I think Lee will be the same. I could be wrong, of course.
Yogi-
I disagree. I think it’s more about location and his family right now. I believe he knows the parameters of what each club is willing to offer now and he has to make a pick. Maybe not but that seems to the case. NY has the biggest offer and Texas has made their final plee.
GB7-
I don’t get that sense. Especially after the world series. It was absolutely no accident that Ryan was seated with the ex-President and former owner game after game.
The ex-President is the most important visitor in the stadium. Every owner would want to host him. And it’s not Greenberg who does it. It’s Ryan.
And it’s not surprising that during the national telecast it was said over and over that Ryans was the “owner” of the Rangers as if he was the primary guy who own the club or at least it’s main partner.
For a team that is carrying so much debt and has a diffuse ownership structure having a guy like Ryan who has influence with MLB is really useful and important.
Cliff is coming here……and let this be a lesson to everyone…..when nobody is willing to play in the Yankee monetary league…..the agents best strategy is patience and heartstrings…..making the Yankees play against themselves while making them sweat and wait.
Everyone knew coming in that the Yanks would offer the biggest deal…..braukeners only play is to make sure the client gets the Yankees biggest offer and not the yankees first or second offer…..which is likely still better than the next teams best.
Thanks, CB. just seems like strange treatment towards the “STAR” of the ownership yeam.
***team***
Good night everyone.
Question:
Hypothetical scenario:
Yanks sign lee, trade for pujols to Dh, sign downs, wood, and soriano for the pen, pettitte returns, and they trade ramiro pen for josh johnson.
Rotation is cc, lee, johnson, andy, burnett……pen is hughes, downs, wood, soriano, robertson, joba, mariano.
Does espn claim the yanks won the winter? Are the sox still the team to beat? Are the yankees described as even being better on paper? Have we leveled the playing field in the AL East?
CB or anyone else,
why would the Red Sox luxury tax be impacted if Gonzalez signed an extension before Opening Day?
If he is signed for $6M this season, why does it matter if he is going to make $x in future years?
I’m guessing they somehow take an AAV but I hadn’t heard the specifics.
If so, doesn’t that mean that the AAV of AG’s contract will in turn be higher in future years, because his “cheap” 2011 year isn’t included? So it’s more about delaying the impact?
Dallas beat writer questions whether ownership should have inserted themselves in the Lee negotiations……..
http://www.dallasnews.com/shar.....7eab9.html
I don’t want to go to bed till Lee is signed, lol.
Every winter the Sox are the team to beat. You just stop listening after a while. They didnt change their pitching, and that was their problem last year.
ARLINGTON, Texas (AP) – Texas Rangers owner Chuck Greenberg traveled to Arkansas on Thursday and presented Cliff Lee with an offer in an attempt to persuade the prized pitcher to remain with the team he helped reach the World Series.
Greenberg, Rangers assistant general manager Thad Levine and co-chairman Ray Davis, a pipeline billionaire, met with Lee, the pitcher’s wife and agent Darek Braunecker at the agent’s office.
“We made an offer with substantial additional commitments in years and dollars,” Greenberg said. “It was a very constructive conversation.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This is the part that scares me:
“Substantial additional commitments in years and dollars”.
That would mean 7 years since they already went 6.
from the article pat linked. What’s wrong with this picture?
“In trying to do something honorable – retain Chris Lee – the new ownership group made what could be a very dangerous spur-of-the-moment decision. It got directly involved in negotiations and displayed a willingness to change tactics at a moment’s notice. If you win, that’s called being agile. If you lose, it’s called being wishy-washy.”
at this point, i have lost interest.
Cliff/Chris/Clint they’re all the same
Boston Dave – say Boston has an agreement in place with Agon for 7 and 140 (using that just to make the numbers easy). So the full contract is 8 years and 146 including this year. If they announce it now, for luxury tax purposes, its 146/8, if they wait until after opening day, its the AAV of the current deal….which is one year at 6 mm.
Rangers are desperate – Yanks are desperate – just might be that the Rangers are crazy, senile, off the medication desperate. Rangers have taken this negotiation very personal, changing tactics, flying their whole ownership group to Arkansas – second time in Arkansas this week – very, very, very desperate – which means they went all in – would not surprise me if it was 7 years 26 or 27 million at this point.
BD,
The luxury tax is calculated based on AAV.
It would be funny if the Rangers owner showed up at Chris Lee’s house and offered him a contract.
West Coast – I wouldn’t be scared since something is clearly wrong. How can he say additional years when according to brauneker, they never made an offer before and were playing this u tell us what u want game?
Chris Lee is the Man with the Golden Gun – he is worth the contract.
JWeav
December 9th, 2010 at 10:38 pm
Lee and Pettitte are a package deal. No Lee = No Pettitte…..then what?
============
Plan E, F or G………………………….we are screwed.
Carlo,
Short answer. NO.
I don’t know why Cliff Lee and his agent is dragging this signing out so long. He either wants to come play for a team that makes it to the postseason every year or not. If he doesn’t then that’s his own deal. He just needs to make up his mind so we can all move on.
tyanksfan36
December 9th, 2010 at 11:30 pm
Because he can and his agent will extract every last nickel from the winning bidder.
GB7-
It’s just my impression. I obviously have no working knowledge of their situation. Just seems to be that Ryan bowed out of the situation.
In general, to get a deal done, you want to have the people the client perceives to have power in the organization in the room and the people who are going to have influence over the client.
I just don’t see how Ryan doesn’t have power and influence, especially if they are trying to play up the non-monetary aspects of playing for the Rangers. If that’s your strategy who better than Ryan (unless they really don’t trust his mouth in sensitive situations which is absolutely possible or they just decided to set the jock aside when it came time for business).
Greenberg has to be there. But Greenberg doesn’t own the Rangers like Ted Lerner owns the Nats. He doesn’t hold enormous equity that is backed with his own massive personal wealth in cash.
And I would have to think Braunecker has explained the ownership structure of the Rangers and it’s potential implication in great detail to Lee because it could have huge impacts on Lee’s experience on the Rangers.
As an example, I believe it was the Atlanta Hawks in the NBA who were owned by multiple parties with no one having majority control of equity. And this caused a near complete meltdown in the organization because different investors wanted to do different things with the coach, personnel, etc.
It became a fight for power and turned into a mess.
If the people who have invested in the Rangers don’t see the returns they expected they could do things like potentially force the Rangers to stop spending on new players, trade expensive players, etc. It could get ugly.
It’s just hard to know. But it strikes me as a strange way of trying to sign Lee.
Tyanksfan – what would u do if being patient could put millions of dollars in ur pocket? We are the ones who want this over…..he may, he may not, but either way, his patience gets him paid.
Do you think Braunecker goes back to the Yankees now or does Lee make a decision based on what he has in hand?
CB, Ryan sat in that same seat the entire year. During games against the Yankees mid-season he was sitting there.
It wasn’t like he moved there just to be next to Bush and in the spotlight. He had been there, Bush just took the seat next to him.
Carl Crawford special errr I mean Rickey Henderson special on MLB Network right now. Those comparisons by some earlier today still crack me up. LoL
Red Sox played the meetings beautifully I am sad to say – signing Crawford spurred the Yankees into action with seven years – which then caused the Rangers to go into full panic mode today and visit with Lee in Arkansas. Ball is now in Cashman’s court – Yanks can either rest on their laurels and hope is enough – or up the ante without knowing what the ante really is and go 7 years 25, 7 years 26, or gulp, 7 years 27. Crazy – all because Cashman had dinner with Crawford on Tuesday night and Theo countered by signing Crawford – thus causing a back fire on Cashman’s strategy.
AJ is from Arkansas, maybe he’s recruiting Lee too.
Cashman’s strategy being – drive up the price of Crawford for the Sox – which by doing this ironically drove up the price and years on Lee for his own team and may have cost the Yankees a shot at Lee . . . again.
I want to punch his face.
bringing an investor to he meeting is likely to try to assuage lee’ concerns about competitiveness moving forward. he has to be aware of the ‘arod texas syndrome’
Chase-
I think they could have found a seat in that same row for Greenberg as well.
If you have the ex-President at a world series game I would think it would be somewhat disrespectful for the person who is seen as the owner of the team to not be sitting with him to host him.
If you just go by formal roles in the organization, Ryan sitting next to Bush would be like Larry Lucchino hosting Bush with John Henry nowhere in sight.
CB
I lived in the DFW area when Ryan pitched for the Rangers – plus Bush was the owner of the team at that time – Ryan is a living legend down there for a franchise with little history to offer. Bush is not sitting next to Greenberg – he is sitting next to an ex-ball player who used to play for him when he was an owner.
Everyone’s locking up their youngsters these days:
From MLBTRADERUMORS.COM:
“The Reds have agreed to extend Jay Bruce on a six-year $51MM deal, according to ESPN.com’s Jerry Crasnick (on Twitter). The deal, which will keep Bruce in Cincinnati through at least 2016, includes a $12MM option for a seventh year.”
Ryan and Bush are friends though. Not to disrespect Bush’s stature, but it was much less formal than say Obama showing up at a game. The elder Bush sits behind the plate at Astros games and doesn’t have the owner sit with him all the time. You are making something of nothing.
So much at stake – the futures of two franchises hang in the balance – the drama – the drama – the loser will be in free fall – the winner will be set up for some nice postseason runs for the next few seasons. Yankees would be set up for a majestic run given their strong farm system plus superior pitching with a Sabathia/Lee combo leading the way. So much at stake – cannot wait to hear the decision – unless it is Lee going to the Rangers.
CB,
I rarely comment on here, but I love your insight.
Do you think this “private” meeting with Greenberg and co. with Lee and his agent significantly changed the odds of him signing with the Yankees?
Well I think if its up to money there is no one that can come close to what the Yankees offer. I don’t think the Rangers have offered what we have so he either wants to pitch here or not. He needs to make up his mind. Its driving me crazy waiting. I am having to wait for my grades, for the season finale of dexter and for my buster posey ball from georgia. I don’t like waiting.
I fear the Dallas Morning News may be correct in their assessment that Greenberg might commit a sin of Rangers’ owners past – i.e. Tom Hicks – and just go crazy/crazy in his pursuit of Cliff Lee.
Color me confused about the contingent going to Arkansas for Texas as well. I understand Greenberg being there, but with the assistant GM? No Daniels or Ryan? Just odd.
Honestly, if I’m Lee and Texas comes to me to make their last pitch without Ryan and without Daniels, I’m wondering what the heck’s going on.
Stoneburner-
That makes sense as well. It could be much more informal than I’m imagining it would be.
Bush has made very few public appearances since leaving office. That was clearly a conscious decision to have him seated in full view of the camera. That’s partly why it struck me as strange.
Remember – Greenberg had those comments about Yankees’ fans – this is personal – not business for him – this is not only Cliff Lee – this is beating the Yankees for Cliff Lee as well – he would get a double win for his fan base – bringing back Cliff Lee and beating the Yankees again – this time in the market after beating them on the field in the ALCS.
Joe-
Thanks. My sense is that Lee is going to sign where he gets the most money unless there are very strong extenuating circumstances.
I don’t think the meeting or the sales pitch about Texas is going to have much influence. It’s going to come down to money most likely.
And it doesn’t seem that Texas has made the highest bid.
CB -
Another thing, while in office, Bush would make baseball comments such as the worst decision he ever made was trading Sammy Sosa. At a baseball game, especially in Texas, you sit next to the former player/fan icon – not the owner of the team. It is like going to the local high school Friday Night Lights football game and sitting with the football players or former players – rather than say the mayor or principal of the school. It really comes down to being a southern Texas country thing – as strange as it sounds.
Ryan and Daniels had stayed behind in Orlando for a family function. That is why they weren’t at the Lee meeting.
http://rangersblog.dallasnews......ers-p.html
One thing I do believe – Cliff Lee is a gun for hire – a mercenary – he will go to the highest bidder – the burning question – who made the highest bid – OR if the highest bid has even been made yet – will there be another round of bids submitted.
If the Rangers acquire Lee at a crazy number beyond what Jon Daniels originally wanted and envisioned and Greenberg went Tom Hicks on him – I can see Daniels walking after this upcoming season and getting out of dodge like Doug Melvin before him. Greenberg may turn out to be like Tom Hicks with inmate running the asylum – Hicks devastated the Rangers and the Stars to an extent. The sins of Rangers owners past may be revisiting that franchise.
How do Daniels and Ryan stay behind for a family function when they are not family?
CB,
Thanks, I completely agree with you.
I have to tip my cap to his agent, I didn’t necessarily think that this strategy of “not taking any offers” till the last day of the Winter Meetings would work out this great for him. He has to be thrilled with the Rangers going at least a 6th year. I just hope Cashman can get this thing done by this weekend, and I think it will happen.
And I read your comments about the Crawford signing last year and I definitely agree with you. I came back to my apartment at my college and told a friend who is a Red Sox fan about the Crawford signing when I saw him walk through the room. He was ecstatic, to the point where I figured they had signed someone to the caliber of Pujols. I don’t get the infatuation with the guy. He’s a very good player, but there’s no way that he is a better fit than Holliday. I told him that and showed him some stats on how good Holliday really is, and he kinda dismissed it because he thought Crawford was just better. Confusing, to say the least.
It baffles my mind that they could have signed him for 7yrs/120. What a bargain.
Thanks again, CB. I’m not much on the business side on baseball and the only “ownership/leadership protocol” that I know is much more identifiable…the military. The guy with the stars is the guy in charge.
CB…..Your point on the disappearig act by Nolan Ryan cannot be dismissed…..For some reason this whole Cliff Lee episaode reminds me of a similar suspense novel that took place 35 years ago………The Main character’s name was Catfish Hunter…..
Yankees will survive getting or losing Cliff Lee, and field a competitive team year in and year out. They will likely continue to make the playoffs year in and year out, maybe missing a year here or there.
They will be likely contenders for the World Series likely every year that the Steinbrenners own them. In today’s baseball, with the need to win three long series (likely all of them best of 7 before long), the day’s of a team winning 2 or 3 or 4 WS in a row are likely gone–the late 90s Yankees are the last we will see of this.
The best you can hope for is to get there year after year, with rested pitching that hopefully is performing well.
Cliff Lee as a player is made for Yankee Stadium and the Yankees. I think he knows it–talking to CC and AJ. As a family, they are not exactly NY. This is the dilemma.
End of the day, he goes for the money, the tradition of winning, and the big stage. Cash probably built an opt-out into his contract offer like CC.
Just like CC, who is going to leave tens of millions on the table to be closer to home?
Ryan didn’t disappear.
Downs is off the board for us … he’s Boston bound. Martin soon to follow.
While Cashman sits somewhere paralyzed waiting for Lee to make up his mind, the Red Sox are spending like a drunken sailor.
The Yankees are being out-Yankeed this winter and I’m getting sick of it. At this point I’m consdering not renewing my tickets.
with crawford and gonzalez both going to the sox, NO TEAM will outbid the Yankees for Cliff Lee. you can be sure of that. it’s just whether he bizarrely feels like he can’t handle the pressure of New York and picks Texas for some lame closer to home, less pressure, reason. but he will be leaving a LOT of money on the table probably for that, and i can’t see him doing that in his one big chance at a free agent jackpot.
Is he hiding under the bed ?
It’s very smart what the Rangers are doing. Nolan Ryan went to the first two meetings with Cliff Lee and his agent. This time the Greenberg brought two important people who hadn’t met the Lee’s and his agent, assistant general manager Thad Levine and co-chairman of the board Ray Davis who is an oil pipeline millionaire and one of the biggest investors in RBE the Rangers ownership group. I’m sure they talked to the Lee’s about different things than Ryan did.
You all are discussing the dynamic of the Rangers ownership but I don’t think one point has been stressed enough – Ray Davis was at the meeting. He is a billionaire who made his money in oil pipelines and his contribution is the main reason Greenberg was able to win the bidding for the Rangers. He is the one with the money. He is holding the wallet and the Rangers need his okay if they are going to spend big bucks on Cliff Lee.
Also, Jon Daniels wasn’t at the meeting because he had a family commitment. Why Nolan Ryan wasn’t there, I don’t know. It’s kind of messed up but Daniels gets no credit for what he’s done with that organization. He’s the reason the Rangers were in the world series this past year, not Nolan Ryan. Daniels is a great GM.
“Ray Davis who is an oil pipeline millionaire”
Billionaire actually
When CB said, “The Rangers ownership structure is both very strange and complicated.” he couldn’t have been more right.
Man, I sure hope I am wrong and I have no proof of this, just a feeling. But it seems that the Lee’s just are more Texas/Arkansas people than New York people; and that they are trying to allow Texas to get close enough financially so that they can live with staying with Texas.
Greenberg practically said the Rangers went to seven years. They had already offered six and today he said they offered, “a substantial additional commitment for both years and dollars in an attempt to land his services”.
I sure hope I am wrong.
Why are they strange and complicated? Just an ownership group with different investors including one of the greatest pitchers in baseball history. No more strange than Hank, Trost, Levine and Hal.
West Coast,
I think the Rangers have only gone to 6 years and I still think that Lee will be a Yankee.
The only thing that worries me is that in addition to no state income tax, the cost of living in Texas is significantly lower than in the NYC area. I am hopeful that the contract the Yankees offered Lee would offset any financial benefit Lee would have by living in Texas.
Trost and Levine work for the Steinbrenners. The Steinbrenner family owns the team. It’s not the same
Maybe getting caught up in who made the trip to Texas is glossing over the fact that they felt someone needed to go there at all.
If they were secure in the fact that Lee and his family love the state of Texas so much and love his teammates so much what additional selling job needed to be done on that front by Greenberg, Davis or even Ryan or Daniels?
Fax over the updated offer, follow up with a conference call if need be.
If there is a need to keep selling lifestyle over money, makes me think the money isn’t there and they have doubts the lifestyle is really the factor they would like the public to believe it is.
Patrick, weren’t the Rangers at six years before today? I think so. If Greenberg’s statement is correct, and I think it would have to be as it’s public, wouldn’t a “a substantial additional commitment for both years and dollars” have to mean seven years?
As to the cost of living issue, with what he will be making it’s insignificant. Lee would still be living in Benton, Arkansas and I agree with you that the Yankees are smart enough to take the state income tax issue into account.
Patrick December 10th, 2010 at 12:59 am
Trost and Levine work for the Steinbrenners. The Steinbrenner family owns the team. It’s not the same.
**************
I’m talking about the entire management part of the organization. I don’t think the Rangers are any stranger than the Yankees. They have very wealthy and credible business people involved. And, an icon in Ryan as their face.
West Coast,
I agree that cost of living is probably negated by the amount of money Lee will be making… but maybe not. He will probably buy a house in Texas. A house you get for 2 million down there costs maybe 5 or 6 in the NYC area. I doubt that would make a whole lot of difference to him but you never know.
About the number of years, we are all speculating at this point but everything I read and heard prior to today was that the Yankees were at 6 years and the Rangers at 5. When the Crawford deal came out the Yankees immediately bumped their offer up to 7 years and the rumor is that the Rangers went up to 6. Again, all speculation and rumor.
I’m talking about the entire management part of the organization. I don’t think the Rangers are any stranger than the Yankees. They have very wealthy and credible business people involved. And, an icon in Ryan as their face.
—
From what I understand, the money funding the Rangers comes from a number of different people. Nolan Ryan, Greenberg, Davis, etc. Because they are offering so much money to Lee they all have to get on the same page. With the Yankees, the Steinbrenner family gives Cashman a budget and he works from there. When he needs more money he goes to the Steinbrenners. If the Rangers need more money they need to get a number of different parties involved.
On that note, its way past my bed time, I have to go to sleep. Hopefully Lee signs with the Yankees soon and we can move on to more interesting topics!
You’re absolutely right, CB. I wasn’t arguing that point. Just stating that the particular seat he was located in was the same he’s had all year round. That’s all.
I think if we get Lee than Andy will retire. He will probably be satisfied knowing the Yankees will be fine without him. If we don’t get Lee he will probably come back because I don’t think he will be able to leave the team with that uncertainty in the rotation. He also knows he will get paid a premium. Personally I think it would be cool if Andy pitched half a season. He supposedly said he can’t do a whole season but that shouldn’t stop him from coming around in july to finish up the season, that way he can spend a long time with the family and then rejoin the team in time for the postseason.
Wherever Lee ends up, one thing is guaranteed.
The Yankees have a legitimate new rivalry.
Thanks Patrick. Some good observations. Good night.
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....oston.html
I love CC.
This is completely out of control. This guy who throws a baseball is going to make 150 million dollars or whatever and he can’t make a decision on it. The guy who lost his job a year ago and is losing his house is the guy who has to make hard decisions. I am sick of professional athletes and their agents. We pay for them and all they do is whine over their millions. Had enough of this.
At this point i don’t care if we get lee or not.
Woke up to no additonal news on Lee other than the Rangers felt they had a very good meeting. I don’t know what # day it is but the soap opera continues. Hopefully it ends today.
Good Morning.
We all know what plan A is. It has been discussed to death and we await an answer on it. No one but Cliff Lee and his wife knows what is going to happen.
So, just for a changeup, how about plan B ?
There definitely is one.
Here’s mine.
We will need to trade many of our farm pieces. We will be lucky to retain Jesus and Man-Ban. We may not be able to.
I say we upgrade our OF with a right-handed power bat.
And beg AP to return for 1 more year.
Then we go out and trade for the next best left-hander we can get.
For example, John Danks, Clayton Kershaw, or Andersen of the A’s.
In addition to all that we go get out and make an offer to Benji Molina to slow down Boston’s running game.
Finally, we go out and get the absolute best lockdown lefty reliever we can obtain. Feliciano might work as an example.
We want someone who is absolute death on lefties.
That’s it. And maybe a bench piece. That’s MY plan B.
And just for the record. I would NOT be satisfied with this rotation:
CC
AP
PH
AJ
Nova/Phelps
IMO, it is NOT strong enough for the AL East, and there is way too much uncertainty contained within it.
Again, IF we don’t get Lee we will be forced to trade for at least one front line pitcher.
MTU .. Riveraveblues.com had the Yankees inquiring about Liriano as well. I just hope Lee signs and we can move on.
And if the worst should happen, i.e. no Lee or AP, we are in deep voo doo.
I don’t think that would happen though because I can’t imagine AP leaving the Yanks in that kind of hole.
Reminds me of when Iran had our hostages…..America Held Hostage, Day 35…..this thing needs to end..
Mike-
I am not a big Liriano fan. Who the heck knows if the Twins would even trade with us. They are direct competitors. It’s hard to imagine them helping us. Who knows.
The “Texas has no income tax” angle is the biggest joke in all of this….
NY state income tax is 6.85%, NJ is around the same & CT is 4.85%…. regardless of where he lives in the NY metro area on 23M the local income tax due is <1.6M a year. So the difference in AAV required to negate the tax difference is not that big of a deal.
As for Texas offering 6 or 7 years….. at what AAV? Due to the above, Texas has to come to the table at 22-23M per to match the Yankees offer.
If we can’t get a youngish power lefty in trade then maybe we have to for a right hander like a JJ.
This is just my take. I do not believe Texas is going to match the Yankee dollars.
I think they will be anywherer from 10-30 million light.
That’s why Texas is always playing up the close to home angle, and the perks.
It is also why they have to put on the full court personal press.
FWIS, it all gets down to what Lee and his wife really want for their future.
Do they go for the max. dollars, or do they do the unexpected, and turn down the extra bucks to stay closer to home.
We are gonna find out REAL SOON.
I might be wrong about this but I would hope CC and AJ both have contacted Lee and his wife.
Particularly, the Sabbathia’s. They have been thru this sort of a decision already and they are good friends with the Lee’s.
I am sure they could help to ease any concerns they may have about playing in NY area.
If I’m Cashman I use all of my weapons.
Good morning, morning people.
I think I’m talked out…
Doreen-
It’s just a waiting game now.
MTU -
pat posted a link last night to an article that talked about how CC and his wife have been in touch with Lee. Scroll back to about 10 pm-ish or thereabouts. They’re not in high-pressure mode, and it’s because they know how stressful this. I don’t want to paraphrase. Go back and find it.
MTU -
pat’s 10:44 post.
good morning all
I was hoping to wake up and find that Lee had signed…no such luck!
MTU,
I feel your anxiety. This saga is frustrating. One half-expects Lee to go on ESPN with “The Decision, Part II” and announce he is neither joining the Yanks nor Rangers, but the Miami Heat so he can play with Wade, Lebron, and Bosh.
I don’t think the Yanks are getting Lee. Call it a hunch, but I don’t think it is happening.
In that case, I think the team should yes, try to sign AP. But in terms of trading pieces like Banuelos, Brackman, Montero or Betances? NO.
If Lee doesn’t sign, the team must move on and come to terms with the fact that yes, they might actually miss the playoffs in 2011 much the same way they were expected to miss them in 2008. But some of these guys might be ready in 2012.
I think if they are handled properly, these players might really turn out to be something. Trading them away for a Plan B would be shortsighted I think, simply because Plan B is really so far below Plan A in terms of quality.
Doreen-
Thanks. that’s good to know and wholly appropriate.
It’s an excellent tool for securing Lee’s services. Aside from the bucks that is.
MTU
Good morning.
Slow down on the panic.
No need to over react and trade away some of the top chips.
Patience my man, patience.
I think the WS hats and T’s will be in stores hear by next week.
Listing to sports radio there’s no need to play this season because the RS already got it sewed up.
I think one thing to be considered is that the Yankees may have not made their final offer yet…..the Rangers likely did yesterday, throwing all the dollars and perks they could at him in.an attempt to match what the Yankees.have offered……Braunecker could take all that to Cashman this morning or last night and he could just up the stakes again. If the Yankees are truly all in on this then its futile for the Rangers to play this game……Lee is going to have to choose to take less money to return to the Rangers……and he would be likely returning to a franchise that will be hamstrung in the long term by his contract.
The leak that the Yankees made an offer to Lee of 5 years 25M, 6 years 24M, 23M 7 years didn’t make sense. You have a 32 year old pitcher, of course he’s going to go with 7 years.
It makes me wonder if the purpose was to give Lee’s agent the parameters on what they were willing to do to match the years of any offer sheet by another team. (Cash…. they know what we’re willing to do). Which means it’s to Lee’s agents benefit to get any team to up the years as long much as possible to secure the best deal out of the Yankees.
I hear they will be “here” by next week.
Mike in Chi-town-
If I may, let me correct something you said. It may seem that I am anxious over Lee but I am not.
I very much want the Yankess to get him. Very much.
But I also know that it may not happen and am prepared for that.
That is why i think about things like plan B, etc.
I also respect where you are coming from on the farm guys. I hate to
trade some of them. But if that’s what it is going to take to make the trades we need then my take is that we have to at least consider it.
I do not see the Yankees trying to “make do”. IMO it is just not their way. Nor should it be.
Thanks for your viewpoint. I am sure many feel the way you do.
Looks like everyone has Lee fatigue. It seems like the morning crowd here is a better time to post, kudo’s to you guys your pretty civil. I made one fairly civil post last night and was promptly attacked by this Guiseppe Franco guy. I went and watched the Colts game.
Make my bile run to read all this cr#p now about Boston being the best team in baseball. Hopefully we get Lee and they stop talking about that and talk about how we have strengthened our ballclub.
Hard to believe the Lee’s havent decided. I think they pretty much know where they are going and it’s just playing the game to see how much they can get. They weren’t interested in the tell me how much you want game. That was a pretty niave negotiating tatic on the part of the Rangers and they were having no part of it.
All I know is all of this Cliff Lee stuff is making me long for the days of talking about Derek Jeter’s contract
Maine-
Panic. Me ? You must be kidding. Alfred E. Neumann has nothing on me.
Except that I don’t have any freckles, and I don’t use the “greasy kids stuff” on my hair (yes. I have a full head of it.)
Fran-
Or the great Joba debates.
Mike in Chicago . .
You can’t sell Yankee fans that the the 2012 season will be wash , We pay one of the most expensive tickets in baseball. Plus the 2012 free agent crop doesn’t look much better.
By many accounts the Yankee farm system is overflowing with some talent. (Most are being blocked.)……
On riveraveblues yesterday . .Giradi and Cashman had 5 pitcheers they were looking at if the Lee deal fell through..
Blake
I think the Yanks are all in right now based on the way things have unfolded in Boston. I can’t see Cash not upping the offer if Braunecker comes back to him. I’ve felt all along if it’s just about money the Yanks will carry the day.
MTU -
Good morning, starting trouble early I see, lol.
Good morning to all the morning people.
I was thinking the same thing Fran! Altho I am really glad the Jeter discussion is over with…well at least its mostly over!
This whole family issue strikes me as silly. It is not like the Lee’s would be living in the Bronx, they will be living in some exclusive suburb in some beautiful location. And since he pitched for the Phillies, they have already dealt w/ Philly fans…you don’t hear about Yankee fans vomiting on people.
we do try to be civil Gary
Gary
It’s times like this that it’s better to avoid as much of the media as possible.
To much drama and not enough fact.
The Lee’s are just using the leverage they waited so long to get.
It is harder on the fans to wait than the Lee’s.
Blake-
These negotiations have reached their terminal velocity IMO.
There is no where for the sides to go now.
It’s all up to Lee and his wife.
Back in a bit
Al-
Good morning.
Maine, especially after the deals Boston made, Christmas came early in the Lee household.
I do not think this is about money at this point.
IMO the yankees have a significantly higher offer on the table the table than the Rangers do.
Let’s see if they want to walk away from the extra dollars.
It’s their call.
Al
They have laws against hit and run.
you don’t hear about Yankee fans vomiting on people.
***************************
Kate,
Excellent point. I hope Cashman noted that in his presentation to the Lee family
MTU,
Or the Joba debates. Forgot about those.
Fran-
Those were absolutely epic. Kind of like Homer’s “Odyssey”. I am still not sure they are actually over.
Starting to wonder if all this Texas vs. NY lifestyles and calling a place home is all blown out of proportion. The guy lives in Arkansas. Yeah it’s closer to Texas but big deal. How many players live where they play anyway? With the money Lee will get in NY both from the Yankees and endorsements he can live wherever he wants and have any kind of lifestyle he wants.
Gary
It’s civil here in the am till GB7 shows up.
He gets cranky when the nurse wakes him up early.
Maine-
I’m glad you’re back. I was beginning to think GB had a social disease, and that was keeping you away.
Gary -
I don’t listen or read when it’s like this. Because they go over they top. It’s one thing to write/say that the Red Sox have improved their team. But they go overboard. And they always, ALWAYS, give the Sox the benefit of the doubt – i.e., their pitchers will naturally bounce back to have monster years and it’s not even debatable. Of course, the Yankees get older and AJ can NEVER bounce back and on and on. As if there is some portrait of a collective Dorian Gray where the Red Sox stay ever-young.
The Red Sox are a good team and a more than worthy opponent/rival. No one challenges that.
But it’s sickening at times like these to witness the worshipping that goes on.
But the Red Sox supposedly “won” last off-season, too. And where’d it get them? They gotta play the games.
totally agree JD…I think it is the only way TX can compete, so it has taken on a life of its own
speaking of epic, don’t forget the sabermetric wars!!!
I am still not sure they are actually over.
*******************
MTU,
I’m sure they’re not. We’re just all pre-occupied with other matters right now
Kate-
Yes. And the who’s fault is that Wang hurt his arm debate ?
So many controversies so little time.
MTU
I’ve been working alot lately and also have no tolerance for all the debate that has no end.
Maine-
Take it easy on those Cows !
Say hi to Mrs. Maine for me. Tell her I think she needs to drag you back to cadillac Mtn. Leave the stone tablets behind this time.
Gary,
Yea but all in means all in…..when you consider that losing Lee may also cost you Andy Pettite then you do what’s necessary to get him. Lee may truly want to go back to Texas but if that were the case I think he would have already signed with them and probably would have done so last night.
Maine-
I knew GB was old but I did not know he goes back as far as the “Civil War”.
Maine -
Yeh, I broke that law this morning.
Got up to no heat, and had to talk to the heat repair service.
Good to see you’ve been working, someone on this board has to pay taxes, so the rest of us have the time to sit in front of our computers.
Blake-
The Yankees are done making offers.
It’s decision time.
MTU -
GB7 was the scout for General Lee.
Al-
Or Custer.
MTU -
That explains whay happened at Little Big Horn, too much pizza & beer, didn’t see the Indians coming.
Doreen
I had local sports radio on yesterday and had to shut it off.
They were giddy like they had been partying all night.
Since 04 they are alot more bold and more obnoxious.
I know it’s hard to imagine them being more obnoxious but they are.
Like you said they are overlooking any chance that their pitching will have any problems.
Only two RP from last year and the C being a real ? but other than that they are by “far” the best team in baseball.
Doreen-
I think you see all this pro Boston stuff because of the market it creates or builds upon. The Yankees are the team to beat. The Red Sox are their biggest rival. Not always on the field but in the marketplace. It’s David vs. goliath, good vs. evil, or any other cliche you want to through out. Point is the market for Boston vs the Yankees can be huge and they need to boost Boston to further perpetuate that. I know people will say the rivalry sells itself but I think they just try to exploit it more by talking up the Red Sox at every turn. It keeps Boston relevant when at times (last year) they aren’t. Rooting for the underdog and adding to wood that rivalry’s fire by going over the top on Boston makes the big bucks. It’s not about favorites.
The reality of the Red Sox is that they replaced their 2 best players from their 2010 team with 2 good free agents. The additions are better than the subtractions but Im not sure how much better their lineup actually is. Their issues last year were with health, bullpen, and the middle and back of their rotation…..if those things don’t improve then these moves wont matter much.
Al-
That, and the fact that “Killer’ was off fillandering, as usual.
NO early warning = bad results.
Al
Just throw another log on the fire.
MTU
No cows just obnoxious taxi passengers.
The cows were nicer to be around than some of them.
Maine -
You can’t be describing the Nation, those calm, tolerant, well mannered fans could you, my, I shocked.
MTU,
I don’t know…..we’ll see.
Blake-
Now that the Sux are a 200 Mill $ team are they still “underdogs”, and the “little engine that could” ?
Just a wait now to see who schedules the news conference.
Hope that Martain doesn’t go to the Sox. They think if they don’t get Martain that Varitek and company are good enough, that’s another defensive train wreck and teams will again be off to the races on them.
Geez Mike is asking Herm Edwards about the miracle at the Meadowlands, Thanks
Blake-
It is a done deal on bidding. There will be no more offers.
The Yankees are already 10-30 million higher than the Rangers.
If that isn’t enough to convince the Lee’s then no addtional dollars will help.
Sheet or get off the barstool.
I’m trying to figure something out here. If the only concern here is Lee and his wife don’t want to move to NY, why don’t they remain in Arkansas year round. Burnett still lives there and Pettitte lives in TX year round. Just because Sabathia uprooted his family doesn’t mean Lee does. He could still remain in Arkansas year round and just rent in NY during the season. Not seeing the issue here, but maybe I’m blind.
You got to love the National media after the little engine that could flex their financial muscle
Didn’t you know……
Lackey has a sound elbow and will rebound from his bad year
Beckett has a sound back and shoulder and will rebound from his 6 era
Matsuzaka will be healthy all year and get 18 wins
No one will get hurt in the Sox rotation all year exposing the complete lack of pitching depth
CC is overweight and has pitched too many innings and will finally breakdown
Hughes will not get better at 25 and will break down after throwing a career high innings
Burnett is a basket case and can never rebound
Pettitte will retire and even if he doesn’t he’s old as dirt and cant pitch anymore
blake -
This is what I’ve been saying for days. It’s as if folks forgot about the production of those that left, as if they’re still there.
A slight improvement, not great, coupled with the fact no one knows how well those that were injured come back, their SP has to not only improve, but, stay healthy, and their BP is rather weak.
Count me on the side of those not overly impressed by the difference between 2010 & 2011 RS.
JD -
In some cases it is about favorites. Many of the people on the radio and television have Red Sox connections. Kevin Kennedy on XM; Kevin Millar, Peter Gammons on TV, for example.
Al Leiter is the only guy I can think of any ANY of these (ESPN, MLB-tv, MLB-radio-XM) that has a Yankees connection.
My preference would be to have people who have no particular “preference.”
Blake-
I’d go even further. If you want Texas THAT bad fine. You have 24 more hours to decide.
Blake-
The Yankee bus is leaving town in five minutes Cliff, best be ready !
the guys on espn’s PTI were not impressed w/ the Crawford signing. They also said the sox can no longer call the Yankees the evil empire.
my feeling is outside of the NE, the sox are not universally loved…they are seen as Yankee light, w/o Yankee class and tradition.
Coney
I think that the contacts the other Yankee players have made (Or I hope they have made) to the Lee’s will eliminate most concerns about living in NY. Relocating anywhere even for a short term is always a emotional experience. Knowing that you have a friend base and a network that will show you the ropes on all those factors that a family nets into a big decision like this goes a long way in making the final decision. Hopefully they are comfortable with NY, if not they aren’t coming.
Upstate, they love them here in Ft Myers. I drove by the spring training shrine they are building for them the other day. Lots of money Lee County didn’t have.
Upstate, they love them here in Ft Myers. I drove by the spring training shrine they are building for them the other day. Lots of money Lee County didn’t have.
Kate-
“Yankee light”. sounds like a beer.
I’ll have one and a shot of Jose Cuervo, thanks.
MTU -
I expect this drama will come to an end by the weekend. I also believe if we get Lee, andy will come back for one final year, his good-bye tour so to speak. I also believe, no Lee, no Andy.
But, we all have our thoughts and opinions, and none of which will change how anything plays out.
Today’s the day when The Empire Strikes Back
Al-
I agree 1000%. It’s gonna be over very soon.
Mercifully.
raymagnetic -
Is that the original, or the full Series?
love it raymagnetic…2 of my favorite things, Yankees and Star Wars
Today?s the day when The Empire Strikes Back
– i hope your right Ray !! “-)
I think you’re right, Ray. Today we probably know something. I think it was two years ago today that Sabathia responded to the Yankees in the affirmative. Let’s hope it’s a happy anniversary.
The Red Sox always “win” the off-season according to many in the media.
Remember last years “5 aces” and “run prevention”?
Or the year before, when John Smoltz was going to be the “best pitcher in baseball” once he joined the Red Sox rotation.
Yesterday, CB, myself and others got shouted down by the panicked and I’ll informed when we had the “nerve” to say a guy with a career .781 OPS (Crawford) is neither a difference maker nor elite player.
He certainly isn’t so good that it should elicit the childish and idiotic panic it did from some Yankee fans yesterday.
As far as Lee is concerned, there is nothing left to say.
You just have to wait out the decision at this point.
I think the subject has been talked and beaten to death.
MTU,
So you’re saying that if Braunecker calls this.morning and says that Texas has matched their offer in value to his client and as things stand he’s meaning towards Texas….Cashman wont bump the offer. I think he will…..the alternatives are still more costly. As you said though, we will find out soon enough.
Al-
I am at peace either way. I know the Yankees gave it their very best shot. If the Lee’s don’t want to take the offer there is no way to force them. No shame when you tried your best. For either side, I may add.
They’re on the clock now. It’s their call.
Al,
That’s just a link to an image.
With all this talk about Lee, and yes, I realize he’s a big part of the puzzle, we still have needs that need to be addressed, and if Cashman takes his eye off the big picture, we shall lose opportunities to get players, as they are coming off the board rather quickly now.
ray -
I realize that, but, some mornings, before the coffee kicks in, my mind, what’s left of it, wonders.
Blake-
That’s what I’m saying. The max offer is in. The GAME has to stop at some point, and I think we’re there.
It’s take it or leave it time. Financially, we are the top offer. Of that I have no doubt.
Is that enough ?
That’s up to Cliff and co.
I always have a plan B even if it is not ideal.
The reason I hope Lee signs is to protect the Yankees minor league system….
Going forward the Sox can’t compete with the Yankees in trades. Their system is a disaster above A ball.
I wonder if the snowman, JCPD is lurking out there, or still digging his way out.
“No cows just obnoxious taxi passengers.
The cows were nicer to be around than some of them.”
maybe you should take the yankee bumper stickers and yankee flag off your taxi; i mean , you are in red sox territory after all.
…and lose the yankee hat for bigger tips
just trying to help
I don’t think the Yankees are at the “final offer” stage.
MTU -
Your plan B may look more like Dancing with the Stars when you get done moving all the pieces around.
Al-
If we don’t hear from him soon we may have to mount a rescue mission.
Sj44,
You think they will go to 8 years?
“Yesterday, CB, myself and others got shouted down by the panicked and I’ll informed when we had the “nerve” to say a guy with a career .781 OPS (Crawford) is neither a difference maker nor elite player”
Don’t necessarily disagree, but both Cashman and Girardi referred to him as a “game changer” within the last week. Don’t know if that’s the same as “difference maker”, but it does kind of sound like it.
SJ-
You know better than me but that’s what I believe.
SJ,
Lee means too much….the “plan Bs” out there will cost even more and probably result in a lesser product. Cash knows this, Lee will just have to outright choose Texas for less money (probably a lot less) if he goes back to the Rangers.
SJ44 -
You most likely are correct. I can’t see Cashman not saying to Lee’s team, Give us a last shot, before making a decision if we feel short.
Al-
Let’s hope we don’t need one !
I also don’t think you play the “take it or leave it” game at this point.
The Red Sox did that with Mark Teixeira.
It not only failed, they have spent over 300 million dollars trying to make up for that mistake.
I know waiting is tough and can get on people’s nerves.
However, if you are involved in negotiations like this, the last thing you do is say or do anything to tick off your target at this point.
That pretty much insures a negative result.
Blake-
I already said as much.
Doreen-
True about the favorites being there but I think they are they are there for the same reason. It’s what sells right now. I just can’t except that the media outlets as a majority, to the core are Red Sox fans. Blasphemy I tell ya.
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/200.....-hoffmann/
last year’s morning post
SJ-
No one is talking about ticking anyone off.
All things come to an end sooner or later.
I just think the Yankees have the best offer on the table by a considerable margin.
There should be no need to bid it up any higher.
The choice, though difficult, is in clear relief at this point IMO.
Even the Yankees have to have limits on the demands that can be placed upon their capital and their time.
That’s my 2 cents.
SJ44 -
I have a belief that Lee and Andy are tied together at this point. By that I mean, I think Andy is waiting to see if Lee signs, before making his decision as to whether or not to play next season. Lee he comes back, no Lee he retires.
Your thoughts.
“I just think the Yankees have the best offer on the table by a considerable margin.”
MTU,
You don’t know that for sure! We don’t have any idea what Texas presented to Lee yesterday.
I don’t see the Yankees going 8 years because I don’t believe Texas has gone to 7 years.
As far as public comments about Crawford, I take them as seriously as their dinner with him the other night.
It’s all a big game to mess with your competition.
They never made an offer to Crawford.
He’s a very good player.
Good enough to be paid this kind of coin? No way.
Crawford is a good player, until his power numbers increases, I don’t think he’s an impact bat like Cano.
It amazes me how many of the mediots think the Red Sox outbidded the Yankees in regard to Crawford.
Craw-
You’re right. I don’t know. It’s just my belief.
I do not think Texas can match our $. Never thought they could.
If they can and they want to. that’s fine. At some point they’ll have Lee.
Cash and Hal must have a limit and my feeling is it has been reached.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion on it.
JD -
Nah – I don’t think the outlets themselves are fans of anything but ratings and ad dollars.
But there do seem to be an awful lot of personalties that are hired by these media that will sing the praises of the Red Sox. And I just don’t get it. I really, really don’t. They are NOT the little engine that could – far from it. Seems to me, they’ve often been the locomotive that couldn’t for many years.
I get that people need to have a nemesis and the Yankees, with their overall success, fills that need perfectly. I get rooting for the underdog. I don’t get the absolute ridiculousness of the fawning over the Red Sox, though.
BIG AL,
I agree with you.
No Lee=No Andy IMO.
I think that’s the message Andy had for Cash in their phone conversation this week.
The Yankees have a LOT riding on this decision.
It’s why I think you don’t put yourself in a position to tick anybody off and continue to stay flexible in your negotiating position.
Can one imagine the look on Albert Pujols’ face when he read about the contracts Werth and Crawford signed.
The Cardinals must be thinking about robbing Fort Knox to be able to pay Pujols next year.
Tex made up his mind before the Boston gave him an offer. To say otherwise is totaly false. He just used the Red Sox to get more money. To tell you the truth it worked out perfectly for the Red Sox that he said no. The Red Sox got an even better player in Gonzalez. He will be a monster in Fenway.
SJ…do you think that the longer this takes favors the rangers or the yankees?
In regards to the Sawx, what they did was great, but to say they are the favorites is a joke, unless Pap/bullpen, Beckett and Lackey put it all together, they will have the same problem as last year…good offense, suspect pitching and rollercoaster bullpen.
If I were the Yankees FO, I would really look at Downs before the Sawx do, or some other really good Lefty out of the pen.
Could the offer to Martin mean the Yankees are willing to trade Montero?
Not true Christina but, you are welcome to believe your John Henry-fed spin.
No decision yet???? Sigh. lol
I agree on going after Downs, he’s the best left RP out ther. It appears the Yankees don’t want to spend that much money on a RP, and are reluctant to give up a draft pick as well.
Craw,
They did outbid the Yankees for Crawford.
142 million-0 since the Yankees never made a bid! lol
Vader,
I don’t think time favors one side or the other.
In the end, the guy just has to make a choice and I have a feeling he will make it in the next 24-48 hours.
Erin
was your Christmas shopping successful?
SJ-
NO ONE should be ticked off when they have been offered 160 or so Million $ and offered a chance to play for the NY Yankees , and then are politely asked to make a decsion about it in a reasonably timely manner.
If they are there is something radically wrong.
Lee is very important, and the dollars and effort speak to that.
But he is NOT the center of the Yankee Universe nor should he be IMO.
This will draw to a close real soon. One way or another.
upstate kate December 10th, 2010 at 8:30 am
Erin
was your Christmas shopping successful?
***************************
kate, it was-I finally got done!!! And it’s all wrapped and everything.
“The Cardinals must be thinking about robbing Fort Knox to be able to pay Pujols next year”
Don’t suppose it’s a 100% lock, but isn’t there a pretty strong liklihood that neither the Yankees nor Boston will actually be in on Pujols bidding? He’s going to hit the lotto no matter what, but I would think that the lack of involvement of those teams could have a negative impact on that final number.
BTW,
This is not only the Holliday season, this is the time of year idiot Red Sox fans come to the blog to tell us how great their team will be in the upcoming season.
It’s a Holliday tradition here like no other.
If I am Andy, and i am serious about hanging it up, wouldnt I be kicking myself that I never had that Paul ONeill chant moment at Yankee Stadium before I did so? Why not retire after a year in which you have let it be known it will absolutely be your last? Let the fans get their final goodbye.
If 2010 was the year of the glove for the Sox then 2011 will have to be the year of the Benjamin.
christina12 -
Read the entire story and you’ll understand, Boston did make it’s offer to Tex, but it fell short.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01......html?_r=1
The Cards want Colby Rasmus to be more like….Brett Gardner?
““[Colby] weighed in yesterday at 180 lbs and is running 5 miles a day trying to get quicker and lose a little more. Wants to be at 175 by spring training. He is working the abs but nothing else in the weight room. Gonna try to be a Brett Gardner slap it and run.”
Wow Erin good for you!
I was thinking about the E&E twins last night. My booster club co-treasurer stopped by last night wearing Bert mittens…she says she has a matching hat.
Tom-
That’s a big waste of power.
Mell -
Texas gets another shot at an FA next year. With the money they save not signing Lee, they could go all in on Albert.
I’m having a hard time finding wrapping paper that I like.
I used to order it from my daughter’s school, but she doesn’t go there anymore.
TheYankeeU Lupica on WEEI. ‘I believe Yankees really wanted Carl Crawford. But they fell asleep at the wheel. ‘ Hes making it up, they are eating it up
Tex said it himself on his introduction that he always wanted to be a Yankee. His wife wanted him to be a Yankee. Are you saying that Tex was lying?
I think the Lee’s decide before Christmas. I can’t see this dragging out even for another week at this point. All the offers are basically on the table. Do you guys think the last offer from the Rangers was their last?
Shame-
I do.
Unless the Rangers are going to blow up thier payroll to the 150-160 range over the next few years, I can not see them allocating such a large portion of thier payroll to one guy.
IIRC, thier MVP CF will be coming up on a new salary soon and after what CC and JW received this year, he should get way more than either ofthe two and then they will have two guys taking up a seriously large portion of payroll.
You would think Lee knows this…I mean who wants to be theonly guy on the team say the last 3-4 years of your contract or get traded again because your team can’t compete.
Didn’t Texas learn anything about the Arod contract?
# Carlo December 10th, 2010 at 8:35 am
If I am Andy, and i am serious about hanging it up, wouldnt I be kicking myself that I never had that Paul ONeill chant moment at Yankee Stadium before I did so? Why not retire after a year in which you have let it be known it will absolutely be your last? Let the fans get their final goodbye.
——————————–
I couldn’t agree more Carlo. It always bothered me a lot that Tino never got the chant.
upstate kate December 10th, 2010 at 8:38 am
Wow Erin good for you!
I was thinking about the E&E twins last night. My booster club co-treasurer stopped by last night wearing Bert mittens?she says she has a matching hat.
*****************************
How cool!! I want Bert mittens and a hat.
They didn’t fall asleep. The market got out of hand. What a clown. If the Yankees gave Crawford that much it would have been riots in the streets.
Doreen-I found Snoopy wrapping paper at Hallmark. It’s so cute I bought an extra roll so I can use it next year too. lol
christina12 December 10th, 2010 at 8:41 am
Tex said it himself on his introduction that he always wanted to be a Yankee. His wife wanted him to be a Yankee. Are you saying that Tex was lying?
************************************************
Just like Lee, if he comes to NY, he’ll say that he always wanted to be a Yankee, and play side-by-side with his good friends CC & AJ. If he returns to Texas, he’ll say Texas was always his first choice, loved his time there, and always wanted to remain a Ranger.
They wanted him so much, they had a three hour dinner with he and his agent and never made an offer.
It did however make the Red Sox raise their offer by almost 40 million dollars.
Would the Yankees have paid Carl Crawford 20 million dollars a year?
To quote Hank Steinbrenner, “No $&@$ way”!
Erin -
That’s great. And Smart. If I do find paper I like, I am definitely going to buy enough for a couple of years at least.
Every year is a bit different, though. IPods don’t take a lot of paper, but a winter coat does, you know?
@ Shame:
Yep, me as well with respect to Tino. Andy will be back…..yes, he may want to see Cliff here and that may make his decision easier, but Andy is a warrior, he isnt going to not come because he thinks it may be more challenging to win a title without Lee.
“If the Yankees gave Crawford that much it would have been riots in the streets”
The Red Sox gave Crawford that much and there are riots in the streets…………..of Liverpool.
Not really riots, but now some Liverpool fans are complaining about their new ownership pouring money into the baseball team, while their rich-with-tradition football club has pretty much been the Mets for the last 10 years.
the weird thing is that almost all the red sox fans who have stopped me on my cape cod street giddy and quivering like jelly with excitement from the crawford signing have no idea what a low career OPS crawford has and what a lousy fenway player he has been.
… but they do now
Vader -
And Texas is still paying A-Rod as he plays for NY. Got to love the stupidity of it all. MLB allows a team in bankruptcy to sign Lee, and keep him away from the Yankees, pushes aside a potential buyer of the team, that would have paid more, just to get the buyers they wanted in place. It’s good to have a “fair” business practice in MLB.
Randy-
Any idea how they found out ?
Doreen
Did you try Target? I’ve usually been able to find a good assortment there.
I bought it after last season so I haven’t looked this year
“And Texas is still paying A-Rod as he plays for NY. ”
I thought Texas was off the hook after the Yanks resigned Alex for absolutely no reason..(well played Mr. Boras, well played…)
Pat-
You always seem to bring the “goods”.
What’s the latest scoop on Lee ?
BL,
I know they made an offer but if they upped the offer the Yankees would go higher. The Yankees wanted Tex and there was no way the Red Sox would get him. Concerning Crawford I believe the Yankees wanted him for sure. There is no way they would go out to dinner if they didnt have serious interest on him. Once the Red Sox heard that they made their offer and got him. We all heard Swisher was on the trade block. I believe that either Swisher or Gardner would be have been traded for starting pitching once Lee signed. Their plan was to sign Lee, sign Crawford, trade Swisher or Gardner for starting pitching along with some minor league players.
There’s no way Lee is coming to NY and we only have Kristen Lee to thank for it. If he comes to NY, he will be putting her in ackward position that she probably won’t even show up at the game because she went public about that incident. Since Lee is supposedly a ll about the family, I really can see him taking less money and stay with the Rangers unless the Yankees overbid by at least $25-$40M, I really can’t see him coming to NY.
Just think for one minute, if Mark Cuban had bought the Rangers, Lee would never be a Yankee. Cuban has the money, and is willing to spend it on players.
pat -
I wasn’t thrilled with the Target choices this season. Should have stocked up last season.
I may have to settle for something I’m so-so on. Kind of like what might happen with the Yankees.
SJ44-
Yeah that Crawford deal was too much. But are these prices going to become the norm or is this just a blip? I guess demand will always dictate contracts. I see trouble down the road in Beantown with this deal though. The elf, Youk & Co. will want the cha ching too.
Erin December 10th, 2010 at 8:43 am
upstate kate December 10th, 2010 at 8:38 am
Wow Erin good for you!
I was thinking about the E&E twins last night. My booster club co-treasurer stopped by last night wearing Bert mittens?she says she has a matching hat.
*****************************
How cool!! I want Bert mittens and a hat.
*************
ME too!!!!! Where did she get it from?
Squeakz December 10th, 2010 at 8:58 am
———————————————————–
That’s bull. Lee addressed that story, saying it was an isolated thing, and would have no bearing on his decision as to where he would sign.
I like shiny paper, and haven’t seen it anywhere in colors that work with my room. (How insane is that??)
new thread
Waiting Game continues for the Yankees
New Post: Waiting game continues for the Yankees
Randy l,
I try to explain that to them as well… but they are so high on the ESPN kool-aid right now, it’s pointless.
I can’t find one Sox fan who thinks Matt Holliday is 1/2 the player Crawford is. Seriously…
I’ve been told he’ll score between 140-150 runs.
some times this is to easy,
christina, by your logic you use as evidence tex’s word as fact, ok, but then you ignore that same logic when coming to crawford. Cashman said they had no interest in him, that is his word.
You are very selective when you use people’s word to sustain your argument.
“Any idea how they found out ?”
mtu-
well, there were those pre printed stat sheets from baseball reference that i had ready to hand out highlighted with crawford’s .781 lifetime OPS and his fenway lifetime .708 OPS.
Randy-
Don’t bother. They would just say you made it up.
Mell-
Good let them riot. Maybe more Yankee fans in the making. Yankee Universe>Red Sox Nation.
BL,
Lets just say that I had a hunch Tex wasnt interested in coming to Boston. I never for a minute I believe that he wanted to be a Red Sox. Its just one of those things that you cant explain.
here’s a site for your Snoopy Christmas paper
http://collectpeanuts.com/wp/h.....er/#high_1
christina12 December 10th, 2010 at 9:06 am
BL,
Lets just say that I had a hunch Tex wasnt interested in coming to Boston. I never for a minute I believe that he wanted to be a Red Sox. Its just one of those things that you cant explain.
———————————————————————————————————————-
Most people call that “hunch” gas.
Howe,
Did you really expect Cashman to say that he wanted Crawford? Why in the world he would go out to eat if he didnt have interest on him? If he wanted to drive the price up for the Red Sox all he had to do was to use somebody from the media that he made an offer then deny it. You dont go out to eat with a player if you dont have interest on him.
Green,
I’m always right on my instincts.
Al, I’m lurking over here. No snow in Corning, but I will be headed back to the five feet of the white stuff in a few hours. Such impatience around here for Cliff to sign. If I remember correctly, didn’t CC sign on the 18th of Dec back in 08. Anyway, it is what it is. If they have to trade prospects for a starter, so be it. All of them aren’t going to make it to the big club anyway, so at some point they will be traded off. I mean let’s face it….. if Lee signs and Andy comes back, none of the young guns make it to the show unless someone gets hurt and after this year, if you have Lee, CC, Phil and AJ until 2013 only one can make it to the show. They will be moved at some point, it’s just when and for whom.
BIG AL December 10th, 2010 at 8:24 am
Can one imagine the look on Albert Pujols’ face when he read about the contracts Werth and Crawford signed.
The Cardinals must be thinking about robbing Fort Knox to be able to pay Pujols next year.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Imagine the look on the face of Adrian Gonzalez when he saw what Werth and Crawford got and what Pujols WILL get ?
He’s operating under the San Diego contract in 2011 and has not signed a contract for 2012 and beyond. If his agent is worth his salt he’ll think over the amount Boston thinks he’ll sign for. Boston will have to up the amount or consider Gonzales a rental for next season. That when overpaying for Crawford will really show up.