Olney: Yankees getting “aggressive” in Martin talks
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 10, 2010 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
I had a lot of Yankees conversations with a lot of different people this week, and every time someone in the organization talked about Jesus Montero, I got the feeling that they were fully prepared to have him on the big league roster in April. Not a sure thing, of course, but very likely. It isn’t just bluster when Brian Cashman talks publicly about making the transition to his top hitting prospect. The Yankees are ready and willing to do it.
But Russell Martin is an interesting alternative, or at the very least an interesting combination. There are reasons to worry about him, but the Yankees have in-house options that they’re perfectly willing to use if Martin gets hurt or can’t hit.
Today, Buster Olney is reporting that the Yankees are “taking an aggressive approach in the Russell Martin conversations.” Martin’s agent has previously gone on the record to say the Yankees, Red Sox and Blue Jays are all in the mix.
Doesn’t mean the Yankees are giving up on Montero or aren’t willing to give him a big league job, just means there’s a talented player on the market, and he plays a position where the Yankees have some questions. If it works, I’m sure the Yankees would love to have him. If not, they have enough talent to fill the spot.
If the Yankees sign Martin, they are going to have to pay him a pretty decent sum of money.
Could be an indication they believe Lee isn’t coming.
Just a thought.
REPOST
# start_wearing_pink December 10th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
Listening to Internet Radio today….
Carl Crawford leaving the Rays was blamed on the Yankees.
“All the years the Yankees talked about being interested in Crawford gave Crawford an inflated sense of self-worth. We dont blame the Red Sox at all. We blame the Yankees for Crawford’s departure”
haha
Here is my day late, dollar short, drive-by for the day, likely totally out of context with the current conversation, but oh well. It’s still baseball talk.
Total guess. Lee chooses the Yankees because of the overall cachet associated with the organization and his desire to be part of the team that continues to slay the Sux.
Here’s hoping I’m right.
Stay warm everyone, especially those whose weather is like ours is in RI. Mighty damned cold!
See ya!
Yankees general manager Brian Cashman, reached at his office Friday afternoon, said nothing had changed since the Yankees presented Lee and Braunecker with their offer earlier in the week.
“The ball’s in their court,” Cashman said. “I have had no response to the offer we made other than, ‘We’ll get back to you.’ We’re in the same spot we were in yesterday.”
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-.....id=5902103
Tiring a bit about these we have enough talemt comments. It’s becoming a general excuse for not getting someone. Why bother in the first place
Lee is a Yankee, or Lee remains a Ranger.
There, I think I covered it all. Just like Jeter talk all over again.
Lost,
Maybe this Russell Martin stuff means Cashman has a deal lined up with Montero in it. Supposedly (according to Chad), Cashman said he has something he can do right now but he’s waiting on Lee.
My speculation is the thing Cash can do right now is trade a Montero package for Upton but if Lee signs in Texas, Cash can’t do that deal and would have to back out. Cash would then have to trade Montero for a pitcher.
My thinking is, why would teams push any deal for their starting pitchers to the point where the deal is something Cash can do right now, BEFORE Lee signs? It seems the trade value of starting pitchers is somewhat tied to Lee’s final decision. Their trade value is much higher to the Yankees if Lee stays in Texas…so I doubt Cash would be able to line up a trade for a starter before Lee makes a decision.
Upton is a different story…
jimbaumbach Cliff Lee’s father told Arkansas Democrat-Gazette in 2008, regarding his son, “He never wanted to be Derek Jeter. He’s pretty low-key.”
NY low-key and Arkansas low-key may be different things I guess.
I always found that in the large number of people I recruited in Industry that the longer it went on the much lower the probability of getting the person became. I just wonder if Lee doesn’t really want to come to the Yanks and is just waiting for the opportunity to develop so he can go elsewhere.
I find this Martin talk frieghtening.
To me, it implies the Yankees may be preparing to trade Montero (for pitching if Lee stays in Texas).
As I said in the last thread, I would rather the Yankees finish in 3rd place next season than trade Montero.
Start wearing pink
They can blame the yankees all they want for his contract and signing with boston but at the end of the day it is the red sox signing his checks and not the Yankees. That I am happy about, of course he would have improved our team, but we didn’t really need him. Its nice to see hatred of the red sox down here in tampa taking a little pressure off us Yankee fans. They say because he signed in boston NY is in dire need for Lee but we have wanted him since he beat us in the WS last year and we tried trading away our best prospect, there’s no secret he has been coveted for quite a while.
jacksquat December 10th, 2010 at 5:20 pm
@Buster_ESPN Heard this: The Yankees are now taking an aggressive approach in the Russell Martin conversations. It’s Boston vs. NYY, plus others.
—
Btw people, just because the Yankees said they view Martin as a “starting catcher”, that does not mean he would start the majority of games. They likely just want a possible upgrade over Cervelli, and backup in case Montero does not work out.
And trading Montero would be incredibly stupid for all but very few players.
“If the Yankees sign Martin, they are going to have to pay him a pretty decent sum of money.
Could be an indication they believe Lee isn’t coming.”
That’s possibility #1. Possibility #2 is that they are really worried about Montero’s defensive ability.
At the price it seems like the Yanks are willing to pay for Martin, I just don’t see another possibility. The Yanks aren’t going to pay startintg money for a backup catcher – when was the last time they paid starting money for any bench player? 2000?
RSM December 10th, 2010 at 5:24 pm
I find this Martin talk frieghtening.
To me, it implies the Yankees may be preparing to trade Montero (for pitching if Lee stays in Texas).
As I said in the last thread, I would rather the Yankees finish in 3rd place next season than trade Montero.
—
I’d rather sign Pavana than trade Montero for anything other than an “ace” quality pitcher.
Pat coming to NY on a hugh contract is going to be a pressure cooker. The wolves will be out in full force from day 1 if you don’t perform. The guy did pitch in Philly so I tend to think he can handle it and it shouldn’t be an issue, but he maybe wondering is the NY media a swamp I really want to get into?
And it’s not like they are getting the All-Star Martin from 2008… he is coming off 2 subpar year and still has to prove himself. So it is surprising if they are considering him as anything more than a backup.
If you’re gonna trade Montero and others, better get the “King” in return !
But, would the Yanks even deal with Seattle now ?
I haven’t really been worried about anything this offseason in regard to the Yankees, but this Martin stuff is starting to get suspicious.
RSM says:
December 10, 2010 at 5:24 pm
I find this Martin talk frieghtening.
To me, it implies the Yankees may be preparing to trade Montero (for pitching if Lee stays in Texas).
As I said in the last thread, I would rather the Yankees finish in 3rd place next season than trade Montero.
—-
I’m with you there. The Yankees can finish in 3rd place and be okay in my book if it means they kept Montero. I want the yankees to have more homegrown talent than trades or FA. It makes it easier to say we didn’t buy our way into the playoffs when I can list a set of names of good homegrown yankees.
Lee is a Ranger
Montero for King Felix I could swallow.
For Upton or Greinke, NO!
I want to be put on the G Love’s “list”
Excellent post.
It’s inline with what Evan Roberts stated on his radio show today. He explained no matter what may happen the key is not to ‘panic’. If you’re Cashman and Yankees front-office you don’t start making knee-jerk moves. Translation: You don’t trade Montero for Matt Garza and others. As G Love stated the lineup will need his youth. If need be the Yankees roll with what they have. Like Evan Roberts stated in MLB, players who weren’t previously on the market suddenly become available. Eg Granderson, Peavy, Roy Halliday. It happens frequently. If this warning is not heeded? The off-season can indeed become a dangerous one.
Martin would not be just a “bench player”, he would likely be the #2 catcher (assuming he is healthy enough to play). That’s different than a bench player that occassionally comes in for a rest day or injury. So I think the purported 4 mil does not mean anything more than that.
Martin can still throw out runners, but I don’t know if he can hit enough to be a starter.
At some point and I think the point is now you have to start denying the Sox any more players that can patch holes. On the heels of the Crawford/Gonzales signings I sure would not like to see them upgrade their catcher position also as they have some problems there today.
“#2 catcher (assuming he is healthy enough to play)”
The #2 catcher is a bench player if Montero can catch. No one is going to sit Montero 80 games just to “ease him in”.
Cash negotiating with himself?
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports......cliff-lee/
Chase
I think you might be right, at this point they are either doing a great job of hiding intent or it’s sending the message that he’s not coming.
*Players previously not on the market have a way of becoming available later in the season (All-Star break) or in the following off-season. Have to be patient*
Montero isn’t being traded.
LGY: Put me down as Lee choosing NYY. Ultimately, the $$$ will win out, TEX cannot compete with NYY on that front…
Who’s left as an outfielder that the Yanks also need off the bench ?
Melky wouldn’t have been a bad choice.
I think they have something “big” in mind, if Lee doesn’t come on board.!
Martin won’t get them to the WS…..SP will
Tom K your right that was the way it worked on Halliday and Lee. Unfortantly we got neither of them.
RSM,
I think I might even agree with you. I’m usually anti-prospect hugging as many know here, but we’re talking about a guy on the doorstep of the majors who has the potential to hit for serious power and average in a game where power isn’t as common as it was.
Trade the other guys in the minors. But this guy who is right there and supposedly ready to take a shot in the majors needs to be given the chance here.
If he fails, so be it. If he turns into Cabrera or Frank Thomas he’ll be at the center of at least one championship here if not more.
Getting Upton (as Lost had mentioned) and giving up Montero, Gardner, Joba and another prospect or two is a terrible idea.
I’d give up Montero for Felix Hernandez, Josh Johnson or Roy Hallyday. That’s about it.
I’m just not sure I would trade a bat with that kind of potential unless everyone in here has been hyping him up to the point of Lars Andersen and seeing him with purely Yankee colored glasses.
Wave Your Hat December 10th, 2010 at 5:32 pm
“#2 catcher (assuming he is healthy enough to play)”
The #2 catcher is a bench player if Montero can catch. No one is going to sit Montero 80 games just to “ease him in”.
—
I said #2, I didn’t say he would catch 50% of the games. However, the #2 catcher, if Montero works out as #1, would still play a significant number of games, full games. I doubt they go past 130 games with Montero at C in his first ML season. Plus Martin might come in some games as a defensive replacement. So the #2 catcher would play much more than a typical “bench player” that just fills in for days off, short term injuries, or to pinch hit once in a while. That’s why I think 4 mil would be justified for his role, and not necessarily an indication they intend to trade Montero.
4 NYY
I think they have something “big” in mind, if Lee doesn’t come on board.!
____________________________________________________________________
Hope so, it’s going to be panic for sure and a real free for all out there by several teams to get the remaining crumbs left on the table.
the Dodgers didn’t want him and they have
R. Barajas catching for them……let the Sox have him
“I doubt they go past 130 games with Montero at C in his first ML season. Plus Martin might come in some games as a defensive replacement.”
So, $4M+ for 30 games and some defensive replacements? You think on a full season basis he’s be worth $15-20M?
No way the Yanks pay $4M+ for that, IMO.
G. Love,
How can you say that it’s such a terrible idea to swap Montero for Upton?
Upton has already begun to realize his power potential on the major league level and he’s a plus defender as well.
Montero’s upside is 30-40 HR, same as Upton.
HOWEVER, Upton has already proven he can stick at a position in the bigs and hit for .900 OPS against major league pitching.
I don’t think NY would really deal with seattle again. They tried to trade their number one prospect for Lee in june and they didn’t take him. They would probably want something outrageous for Felix and I don’t think they really have anyone else worth trading for(besides ichiro but we have enough singles hitters)
Tyler Kepner
Still think Lee will go for highest offer, which is Yanks’ 7 yrs/$161M. But sense I get from people involved is he feels pull toward Texas.
I certainly agree that if you trade Montero and others for Upton, that would be NUTS !
Sp is what we need, badly
Prediction : Banuelos will be up next year sometime. I think I’d rather have him now instead of another rotten season from A J.
get over it Lee isn’t coming here…
It’s funny
I would really like to see the Yankees get Lee, but the idea of losing him to Texas doesn’t make me feel physically ill like the idea of trading Montero.
The last time I had a pit in my stomach over losing a young player was when it appeared Hughes was going to Minn.
Why is everyone so panicked? If Lee doesn’t come, throw more money at Pettitte to guarantee his return. CC, Andy, Hughes, AJ and Nova is a better rotation than the one that won the World Series in 2009.
Wave Your Hat December 10th, 2010 at 5:40 pm
“I doubt they go past 130 games with Montero at C in his first ML season. Plus Martin might come in some games as a defensive replacement.”
So, $4M+ for 30 games and some defensive replacements? You think on a full season basis he’s be worth $15-20M?
No way the Yanks pay $4M+ for that, IMO.
—
Uh, no. Stop putting words in my mouth. You don’t just divide/multiply by 5. That’s not how it works.
“You don’t just divide/multiply by 5. That’s not how it works.”
Why not?
Bret,
Trading Montero and Gardner in the same deal for Upton is dumb. You create 2 holes and only fill one. It makes no sense give the teams needs at the moment.
I’d like to see Montero stay but I’d be very concerned. My impression is that Cashman thinks by position. First base is locked up for Tex and DH is reserved for a good portion of Alex’s contract. If Cashman doesn’t believe in Montero as a C, he’s probably gone. Already tried to trade him twice.
Just a thought on the Jeter negotiation & deal, after reading ESPN.com’s run down of his option incentives, and understanding that he was a tad ticked off & said (basically) that nobody on the outside will hear about the negotiations of his next contract while they’re going on:
Lots of the incentives are award-based, meaning he could come in 2nd for silver slugger but not win that $1.5M incentive. Coming in 2nd or 3rd for the MVP would mean he’s no slouch, but it would cost him a $2M downgrade on that incentive. And post-season MVP awards go to a guy who gets hot for just a few games, even if he has a gold glove teammate who hit .385 for the season. Those are just a few examples, I know there’s more to the incentive list.
Unless Jeter wins most or all of those incentives and makes near the $17 million max for the option year (maybe even if he does) my gut says he’s probably already thinking to take the $3 million buyout. Let’s say he’s pegged to make “just” $13 million in NY for that option year, he could still actually be a pretty good player. He could quietly shop for a contract elsewhere for $15-17 million (or go straight for what he was making in his old 10/189 deal) and with the buyout make more than he will in his 3rd year of this contract.
If he’s still good enough to do that in 3 years time, I hope he has in his mind ask NY to match whatever offer he gets and come back for a few more years. Without knowing the guy personally, I really couldn’t say. Just a sense.
Based on reports, I am standing by my opinion that Lee stays in Texas. However, no one really knows at this point but Cliff (and even he may not have decided yet). In referencing the Lebron debacle, weren’t “insiders” saying 24 hours before he announced he was going to the Heat that the Knicks were a sure thing?
Gardner may turn out to be more valuable than either Upton brothers, remains to be seen.
Pitching is still the name of the game.
Don’t wanna see Montero go, fore sure, but if it brings in a young ace like KING or Johnson, OKAY !
We DO have more catchers on way !
G. Love,
2 holes?
I count zero.
Upton replaces Gardner – no hole there.
If Russell Martin is signed and the Yankees have faith in Romine and/or Gary Sanchez then you’re not creating a hole at catcher.
One of 4 things here:
1 – olney knows the red sox are the front runner for martin so he wants to make it sound the yankees are all in for Martin so he can go nuts about what a double bonus win this was for the sox
2 – the yanks are merely driving up martins price for boston
3 – the yanks genuinely want martin because they are worried about montero and want no part of posada as an everyday catcher
4 – the yanks want martin because they plan to deal montero……and no, they wont deal montero for a corner outfielder who has yet to even blossom
lounge lizard December 10th, 2010 at 5:45 pm
I’d like to see Montero stay but I’d be very concerned. My impression is that Cashman thinks by position. First base is locked up for Tex and DH is reserved for a good portion of Alex’s contract. If Cashman doesn’t believe in Montero as a C, he’s probably gone. Already tried to trade him twice.
********
Obvious to some.
NYY626 – Andy in 2011 December 10th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
Erica – not sure if you’re around but I just saw your mittens on facebook, very cute! lol
And for the record I am so over Cliff Lee.
**************
Thank you!!! I LOVE them
coney,
The Heat chatter really picked up 24 hours prior. Knicks were never really mentioned that seriously by people outside NY. Most thought it was Cavs/Bulls. But the day before the “decision”, everyone was saying Heat.
Montero in a package for a SP only
Yanks only trade Montero for a pitcher like Greinke or Felix Hernandez. Martin is questionable. He was really bad last two years and he’s coming off hip surgery. Now if A-Rod at 3b had some mobility issue, a catcher would have more problems. I say, stay clear of Martin, who turns 31 in February, an old 31.
Gary….You made a very compelling argument about Lee staying put….I don’t see the Russell Martin situation as nothing more than a one year gig…Martin is playing for a real contract in 2012 and the Yanks need an upgrade over Cervelli and Martin is certainly that and more……The longer this Lee saga plays along the more i wonder as negative self talks creeps in…..The rotation and another stick is essential for a deep run into October……What keeps playing in my mind was all the talk about how excited Cliff Lee was about coming to The Bronx back in July before Seattle changed direction on that deal……Like I said earlier, the suspense this time around reminds me of the uncertainty that took place 35 years ago about a small town guy from North Carolina coming to NYC……His name,,,,,Catfish Hunter
I was leaning towards Lee signing with the Yanks, but with this breaking news concerning Tommy Hunter’s recruitment – I can’t see him turning down the allure of playing Little League baseball with the Antler and Claw brigade
Just a guess, but maybe the Yanks go hard for Martin if they don’t get Lee. pick up martin and trade Montero for a #1 pitcher….hell if this were a possible scenario id pass on lee and go this route right now
http://sportsthunderdome.blogspot.com/
Source: Cashman trying to sell to Lee rappelling down buildings more fun than hunting
Ya’ know what ? We ALL just gotta wait & see !
“[W]orth noting that this isn’t just my speculation. Other major league sources have told me — based on their own views of the matter, not on any inside-intelligence — that they don’t think the Rangers will win it. What’s more, they think that’s possibly by design, with all of this being a big show so they can tell fans back home that they tried their hardest.”
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports......n-daniels/
aandro Anthony Andro
Rangers manager Ron Washington to be inducted into the Texas Black Sports Hall of Fame Saturday.
21 minutes ago
I’m sorry. But what a joke… The guy SMOKES CRACK a year ago and is the worst manager in baseball, and his antics/theatrics don’t exactly help.
J”ust a guess, but maybe the Yanks go hard for Martin if they don’t get Lee. pick up martin and trade Montero for a #1 pitcher….hell if this were a possible scenario id pass on lee and go this route right now
http://sportsthunderdome.blogspot.com ”
King Felix is the only player I would trade Jesus Montero for. I didnt like it when they offered Montero to Seattle for Lee last July. But the flaw in the link is that Seattle already passed on Montero in a trade for Lee. Why on earth would they trade for him in return for King Felix?.
Stay confident Pat M!!
Just think with these little seeds of doubts creeping in how much more fun the celebration will be when he pulls that Yankee jersey over his head at the presser.
^^He did a rail in a bar – that’s a fry cry from hitting the crack pipe
^^He did a rail in a bar – that’s a fry cry from hitting the crack pipe
–
He is a rich sporting figure, he has done more than a rail in a bar.
Oh, my mistake. I was under the impression he smoked a crack pipe once. Either way, it’s cocaine.
Lee resigns with Texas.
Montero, Joba, Nova, Nunez and one of the killer B’s gets traded to Seattle for King Felix.
I think it is a safe assumption at this point that the Rangers top offer is less than the Yankee top offer.
I also think the safe assumption is that the free agent will take the most money.
Cocaine is a helluva drug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....&NR=1
Dasaint, that trade proposal would he LAUGHED at by Seattle. You must have just done a line with “Wash.”
Ken_Rosenthal
Source: Downs in agreement with #Angels – 3 yrs, $15M. Another $1M in incentives based on GF. Taking physical now
be*
I have a question…..and an answer.
If all the media outlets reported that they felt Lee was coming to the Yankees…..would it sell papers/drive website traffic/make headlines?
My answer: no, the only way this story interests Joe Public is if there is a seed of doubt that Lee turns down an annual title shot and the most money.
Chase,
Its just as unlikely as the Gonzalez trade to boston.
Nice, Boston didn’t get Downs. Great news.
Dasaint…. I can’t even respond to that sentence.
FYI : Martin born 2-15-83
Any guesses on what Texas’ final, best offer was to Lee?
7 years? $140M?
If he passes on NY, how much $ is he leaving on the table?
Will I get this message posted before anyone says “screw lee cashman, downs is gone now, stop waiting and start signing everyone, we are screwed”……I doubt it.
One of these national media guys, I forgot who it was (maybe Stark?), tweeted last week that the Angels really only have enough money for one of the big fish they are after: Soriano, Beltre, and Crawford.
With this Downs signing he may be right with Craw off the board and now going with a cheaper Downs over Soriano.
Chase, in all seriousness, the point I’m making is that the only trade I’d be interested in making is for Felix. For that, I’d go all out.
Boston not getting Downs is good.
Yankees not getting him is worse, IMO.
Yanks are now faced with a potential bidding war for both Martin AND Feliciano.
3/15 seems high, but I think Downs will be worth it
Nice signing for Anaheim.
In the interim, I’d trade with Seattle for David Aardsma as my 8th inning guy.
I do find it interesting that players are signing before Lee.
If I were a free agent that might fit in NYY or Texas’ plans, I’d want to get some of the $$ from the loser of the Lee sweepstakes.
chase,
do you have a problem with Paul Moliter being in the Hall of Fame?
Amazing all the hatred slung Washington’s way for doing drugs in his past and rising above it to become successful. Isn’t that something Americans usually applaud? No? I wonder why.
What about Beltre as a DH and sub at 3rd. ? Or just divy up with A-Rod.
I doubt seattle would take less than Arod and Tex plus a few prospects with us paying their salaries for King Felix.
I wish Cashman had taken the Swisher Approach and taken a chance on De La Rosa early in the process, which would have decreased Lee’s leverage as well as added another lefty to the rotation.
If they signed DLR to a reasonable contract, and still signed Lee, they could have spun DLR off to another team.
Crack is Wack
Former crack heads shouldn’t be applauded for not smoking crack anymore.
I’d much rather have Downs, a legit 8th inning guy, for 3/15 than Feliciano, strictly a lefty specialist, for say – 2/7.5M.
But it ain’t my money either. Still, Downs is better than some closers out there. He’s also left handed and can be used as the EIG with little worry.
Saint007 December 10th, 2010 at 6:21 pm
In the interim, I’d trade with Seattle for David Aardsma as my 8th inning guy.
———————————————————————————————————————-
Always liked him, wanted the Yanks to get him a couple years back. Good thought.
West Coast Yankee Fan December 10th, 2010 at 6:22 pm
Amazing all the hatred slung Washington’s way for doing drugs in his past and rising above it to become successful. Isn’t that something Americans usually applaud? No? I wonder why.
————————————————————————————————
Only Pettitte and Arod can do drugs and get a second chance on LoHud.
That’s a lot of money for a 35 year old Downs.
And on top of that the Angels are surrendering their first round pick.
They are a very difficult bunch to figure out. There weren’t close to winning the division or wild card last season.
They have missed out on Crawford.
I don’t see how a set up guy – as good as he is – is going to substantially make a difference with what their team is able to accomplish.
I suppose they still could sign Beltre. That might be why they were ok with surrendering the pick as it’ll only wind up being a second rounder.
Oh look, two trolls have joined forces.
The Texas Rangers are more like a San Quentin Rehab Softball Squad than a baseball team.
The naysayers and those that want Montero dealt will disappear like rats on a ship once he breaks out with his “light tower power”.
Fans in left center field will feel the breeze going over their heads.
BD,
It’s funny… in 2008, CC was the first big FA off the board (2 years ago today, IIRC), then the Lowes, KRods, Burnett, Mannys, Texeiras, Dunns, were off the board. This year, there is pretty much no one left except the Boras clients (Beltre/Soriano) and Feliciano.
Pretty crazy how many of these nationals guys like Heyman had the Angels getting ALL 3 of Craw, Beltre, and Soriano.
Soriano would be a good sign if he would agree to pitch 8th inn. for a couple years.
Ya’ never know when Mo gets “old.”
So what does this do to Soriano?
Cardinals? Rangers? Jays?
Yes, I do.
Marijuana I don’t have a problem with people/players using, but cocaine is a man-made/altered substance that is extremely extremely harmful and dangerous to your body.
Not here to argue those points though, and I won’t here.
I was listing that as an example of his latest actions and not the sole source of criticism.
And I mean the “GREAT” MO !
Seattle’s starting rotation doesn’t exist, outside of Felix Hernandez. While Felix may not get traded right now, don’t think it won’t happen eventually for the same reason that most star pitchers get traded off losing teams.
See: CC, Lee, Halladay.
And no one broke the bank for them.
Angels are the boy who cried wolf. Every single year, they are supposedly “heavily involved” and the favorites to get all the top offensive guys.
A few years ago, they were supposed to trade for Soriano, Wells, Manny, Konerko, Thome, Helton, none of them happened.
Then when A-Rod opted out, they said he would go there
They were supposed to sign Tex or Manny in 2008
Then they were supposed to players for Bay/Holliday last year
They were supposed to be in on Crawford/Werth AND Beltre next year and in the Gonzo/Fielder sweepstakes.
All they have to show for their interest in the last 5 years is Tori Hunter.
This entire theme of the “billionaire ownership member” of the rangers cutting a personal check for Lee’s salary is such a farse.
1 – he didn’t become a billionaire by giving tens of millions of dollars away
2 – if this was the case, texas wouldn’t be presenting a bunch of perks and crafty contract terms…..they would just cut the check the yankees are cutting or add to it
What annoys me is that as soon as the yankees sign cliff, all the stories will be about 7 year contracts to pitchers, yankees throwing their money around, and lee filling a much needed hole but yanks are no better.
3/$15m for a 35 year old Downs? So would then then sign Soriano for $12-15M/year? Something’s not right. Has setup now become a $5M/year slot?
CB…..The Halos are a pitching / defense driven club, and with Downs they have an outstanding, young pen other than Downs….They’ll sign Beltre who will continue the defensive mentality and they hop a strong presence in the lineup from the right side…….Make no mistake losing out on Crawford stings ……
I think Lee and Sabathia are going to be contract twins.
Just having Kendry Morales back will help the Angels next season, won’t it? Do they have a DH? They’re not bringing back Matsui, I gather?
Does anybody when Josh Hamilton goes to the Front Office with his hand extended out,…Where’s Mine ????
What annoys me is that as soon as the yankees sign cliff, all the stories will be about 7 year contracts to pitchers, yankees throwing their money around, and lee filling a much needed hole but yanks are no better.
——————————————–
Agreed. And if the Rangers are able to retain Lee, the money will not be mentioned. Instead, it will be about team, family, and all such feel-good crap. Even if it’s for similar money.
Does anyone know how good Martin is defensively — calling games, catching the ball, framing pitches, throwing out runners? Thanks.
Carlo December 10th, 2010 at 6:38 pm
This entire theme of the “billionaire ownership member” of the rangers cutting a personal check for Lee’s salary is such a farse.
1 – he didn’t become a billionaire by giving tens of millions of dollars away
2 – if this was the case, texas wouldn’t be presenting a bunch of perks and crafty contract terms…..they would just cut the check the yankees are cutting or add to it
What annoys me is that as soon as the yankees sign cliff, all the stories will be about 7 year contracts to pitchers, yankees throwing their money around, and lee filling a much needed hole but yanks are no better.
***********************
Well, you sure can’t say that with any credibility if you are a Red Sox fan with what they are spending on AGon and Crawford. $180 million dollar payroll is hardly home grown.
“Does anybody when Josh Hamilton goes to the Front Office with his hand extended out,…Where’s Mine ????”
Soon. Rangers are going to have to pay a lot of guys in the near future…..or let them walk.
As much as I want Lee, I’m sick and tired of reading stories, or watching sports shows talk about how if the Yankees don’t sign Lee, their off-season will be a disaster, and they won’t have a chance to win the World Series, as if only with Lee can they win a World Series.
Um, did Lee win a World Series last season? No? Didn’t think so.
“Oh look, two trolls have joined forces.”
—————
Careful Face. Could be just one troll in disguise.
Backstreets – I understand martin throws the ball back to the pitcher and the pitcher doesn’t have to bend down to scoop it off his shins……thus, martin is better behind the plate than Posada.
Pat M. says:
December 10, 2010 at 6:42 pm
Does anybody when Josh Hamilton goes to the Front Office with his hand extended out,…Where’s Mine ???
____
That made no sense but I understand. I had a conversation with my dad about crawfords contract and he made a comment about Hamilton making a ton of money. I just laughed. Josh hamilton is extremely underpaid for how great he is. Eventually he will get paid what he is worth.
CB,
The Angels may sign Soriano and Beltre, surrendering just a 3rd rounder for Downs. They’ll likely sign at least one of those 2, I’d think?
Giving him a 3 year deal is tough, but I think it’s a safe bet the first 2 years will be productive.
Bullpen arms are always risky. At least mitigate the risk by getting a guy who has succeeded in the AL East with no recent injury history.
In fact, the Angels may end up getting Beltre and Soriano for about the money the Sox have given Crawford (but for far less years.)
If the Angels were to sign a speedy, defensive-minded OF for cheap, they’d be “trading” Crawford’s power in exchange for an elite closer and a pretty good 3b.
Boston Dave, the Angels sucked so much last year that their first round pick in next years draft is protected.
The Angles first round pick is protected. At least MLBTR said it was…
LGY -
More and more I have the feeling that these media people don’t have any more of a pulse on things than some people here. And I mean that as a compliment to the people here who really seem to research all this stuff. I mean, I can make scattershot predictions with a modicum of knowledge if I so choose. I don’t think I’d be any less accurate than most of the pundits have been this off-season.
it’s like there’s a script with pre-defined characters and stage directions and that’s what is “reported.”
Dassit,
yikes – I didn’t even think about that. It’s been a while since that was the case.
Doreen,
the media would love to be right all the time.
but since you can get away with being wrong without consequence, it’s far more important to be salacious and interesting than to be right.
Feliciano is going to get paid now…
What annoys me is that as soon as the yankees sign cliff, all the stories will be about 7 year contracts to pitchers, yankees throwing their money around, and lee filling a much needed hole but yanks are no better.
——————————————–
Agreed. And if the Rangers are able to retain Lee, the money will not be mentioned. Instead, it will be about team, family, and all such feel-good crap. Even if it’s for similar money.
*********************************************************************
So my question is, why does anyone read what the mediots write if it is so irritating. The only truth left in papers are the box scores.
Good, I hope the Angels sign Beltre and Soriano now, denying the Sox and Rays first round picks.
“I understand martin throws the ball back to the pitcher and the pitcher doesn’t have to bend down to scoop it off his shins……thus, martin is better behind the plate than Posada.”
I have little doubt about whether he’s better behind the plate than Posada. I think Chad might be. But beyond that, any knowledge about his defense? I’m just trying to see why it’s worth paying him good money, and the only thing I can imagine is that he’s got very good skills behind the plate. Because if he doesn’t, I can’t see why the Yankees should pay much for him.
“$180 million dollar payroll is hardly home grown.”
The Sox had $40M come off the books (Martinez, Beltre, Lowell, Okajima, etc.) and signed Crawford and acquired AGon. They have $10M to give in raises, plus arbitration and some holes to fill. So their payroll is in no way skyrocketing.
Next year, Ortiz, Drew and Cameron come off the books. AGon’s extension(?) will eat up a chunk of that but they should be able to easily replace those three with lower contracts.
Boston has put itself in great position with regard to financial flexibility. Its the Yankees who are once again looking to raise payroll. You know…the Yankees…the team with the awesome farm system. Ironic isn’t it that with all those young studs, they still can’t get a handle on payroll.
Getting your, and the organization you work for, name out there is more important than facts.
I hope Lee realizes if he signs with Texas he can say good bye to all of his all star teammates. They will never be able to afford Hamilton, Cruz or anyone else decent on that team. I wonder if fielding a competitive team and winning a world series matters to him or if it’s 100% a family decision. The Yanks have the best offer on the table probably by about $30m and have a chance to go to the world series every year. The income tax shouldn’t factor in because he can make that money back on endorsements.
Next year Ortiz, Drew, Cameron AND Papelbon AND Scutaro come off the books.
They’re gonna sign Prince Fielder and Jose Reyes.
Doreen,
That is the problem. These guys by and large know nothing, but they use their position to pass off their opinions as some sort of authority and some fans just eat it up.
Except for rare occasion, they only know things when someone wants them to know something.
Notice how suddenly, no one has any clue what Lee is going to do or what Texas offered him? Not a single person in the media has been able to track down even the slightest clue as to what Texas offered.
“The Angles first round pick is protected. At least MLBTR said it was…”
Thanks for that. Reflexively I’m just so used to them giving up 1st round draft picks when they sign free agents I didn’t map how bad they were to them having a protected pick.
They have a lot of holes to fill.
Crawford was a key guy for them to get.
Boras is now going to gouge them on Beltre.
Backstreets – truth is, I don’t know much about his defensive ability. I don’t believe he is great, but better than average.
I don’t understand all the interest in a damaged catcher.
At what price is my question?
Next year Ortiz, Drew, Cameron AND Papelbon AND Scutaro come off the books.
They’re gonna sign Prince Fielder and Jose Reyes.
—
The Red Sox aren’t going to have 4 20 mil a year contracts
Lee will go to the highest bidder – these guys always do – and his negotiations so far demonstrate that – it was with the idea of soliciting the most money – only question is whether Texas offered more.
I can’t see them keeping Cervelli if they get Martin.
Where will they fit Montero in this mix?
The point clown is that for eons Red Sox fans have been demeaning the Yankees for trying to buy championships, which has been proven not to be accurate. When you have a $180 million dollar payroll, the second highest in baseball, and you just spent $300 million on 2 players (once AGon’s deal is done) you don’t have a leg to stand on.
I’d rather Fuentes than Feliciano for 2 reasons: Fuentes is a lefty, and Feliciano’s arm is eventually going to drop off ala Scott Proctor.
Many closer types want multi-year contracts this off-season due to the list of quality closers they’d have to compete with next season: Bell, Broxton, Lidge, Nathan, Papelbum, K-Rod.
If they accept 1 year contracts, they get screwed next season.
KGY….The media folks love to slay the dragon, and The NY Yankees are the Dragon……
JCPD -
I actually don’t read the papers anymore!! Unless I already know the story and it has a happy ending.
I get enough of the tidbits here to drive me crazy!
The problem is the 24/7/365 news cycle. There is literally no time to make sure you’re right. Content for content’s sake is more important than accuracy of content.
Remember – last year Lee said he liked Philly before he was traded to Seattle – Lee is in the very definition – this generation’s David Cone – a hired gun who has made the rounds.
Maybe they are just trying to up the price on Martin, as they did with Crawford.
RS are desperate for a catcher.
It is quality of the contract not quality of life when it comes to these guys – these are professional baseball players – not college players swearing allegiance to their alma mater.
I hope Lee realizes if he signs with Texas he can say good bye to all of his all star teammates
**********************************
I know this is different ownership, but wouldn’t you think they would learn their lesson from Hicks and Alex’s contract.
Content for content’s sake is more important than accuracy of content.
==================
Has it ever been any different?
Clown – the sox have to fill the DH spot, a corner outfield spot, and shortstop……and maybe even closer or setup role….after 2011.
Their farm system is barren. Oh, wait, enrique iglesias, the leatherman who can’t hit…..may fill the SS spot.
How exactly are those spots filled cheaply……or do they just go get $5 mm players…..which would be comical since they will have no offense coming from SS and Catcher by then. But sure, RF and DH will be filled real cheap. And so will that rotation after dice k leaves…..or maybe craig hanson will emerge as a starter.
The media folks love to slay the dragon, and The NY Yankees are the Dragon……
=====================
So be it….
Power to the Dragon.
rs are dragon wannabes, dumb ones.
The Angels farm system has had a few highly hyped players who busted.
Guys like Dallas McPherson and Brandon Wood…
That Ryan and Daniels were not there spoke volumes – Greenberg upset with the approach on Wednesday of having the Lee camp tell them what it would take – no coincidence when Lee’s agent said that was rude and offensive tactic that Greenberg changes tactics – brings in big oil man Ray Davis (who has vouched for the Lee contract himself with his own money – a separate payroll for Lee), makes a THIRD trip to see Lee abruptly, does not bring Ryan and Daniels who had the Wednesday strategy delivered.
Remember – this is personal for Greenberg. This is, however, purely business for Lee. The question is whether Greenberg went crazy with 7 years 189, 7 years 200 – did he go crazy.
Lee is going to the Rangers. The Rangers have made a much more “informed” offer they said.
If it was all about the money, he’d have signed by now for his already outrageous offer instead of drawing this thing out.
I really doubt the Yanks are as interested in Martin as we are hearing. He had a serious injury last year and even before the injury he looked awful behind the plate. I don’t see the Yanks giving him more than $2-3m unless it was all incentives.
Lee is going to the Rangers.
=====================
Then why not announce it?
Stone – if they went crazy with the offer than lee signs it. Ur theory is far fetched in my opinion.
mick -
I think at one time it actually was.
There just isn’t enough time anymore.
How many times do you pick up a newspaper these days and find tons and tons of spelling and grammatical errors? No one checks anything anymore. In spite of the fact that computers were supposed to help out with those types of errors. They don’t. But people think computers are infallible. Accuracy just isn’t as important as getting a story out at all.
And bias. That’s the other thing. Now, I know it’s always been that a newspaper or media outlet reflects the bias of the ownership/management group. But these days it seems even worse. There’s not even a pretense at presenting a complete picture. It’s up to an individual (as it has always been) to put the puzzle pieces together to get the most complete picture they can. But who really ever does this? We’re all looking for a short cut for one reason or other. Whether it’s because we’re lazy or because we’re depending on other people to sum things up because we don’t have the time to do it, it’s what goes on.
In all reporting. It’s the exception when you get a fleshed out piece of journalism in any subject.
This is about the contract, the money, the terms, – as was the case with A.J. – Lee is a hired gun, a mercenary in the truest of forms. He goes to the highest bidder – the question is whether Greenberg got oil man Ray Davis to vouch for the contract himself – if so – they could go with 7 years 28 mill a year easily – Ray Davis prints money from just one of his oil fields – it is Ray Davis that is the key in all of this.
What’s a ‘much more informed offer’?
Did it have footnotes? MLA citations?
If the rs don’t pitch, they can spend all they want, it won’t help them.
This is worse than Lebron’s “The Decision” infomercial.
Carlo – it is not a theory – I have no idea what Greenberg did – but it became personal for him – he brought in Ray Davis to the meaning – it is very personal – it is 2010 ALCS 2.0 for the Rangers. For Cashman it is just business – not Sabathia 2.0.
Yep – billionaires usually just throw money around frivolously in non business deal type transactions. That’s how they got rich……being idiots.
raymagnetic December 10th, 2010 at 5:34 pm
Montero isn’t being traded.
I don’t have much faith in cash since he thought he sent him packing for a couple months of 32 yr old lee. hope ur right tho’.
Look – this is Greenberg’s first contract negotiation with an MLB player – MLB players are part of one of the most exclusive club of millionaires – that union is one of the best in North America – he floundered terribly on Wednesday with Lee b/c he treated this like a negotiation as he would with non-baseball player entities – wrong – MLB players and their agents are a rare breed as evidence by Lee’s agents’ comments early Thursday morning – Greenberg admitted he needed to change tactics – his tactic was bringing in the deep pockets – oil man Ray Davis.
I’m not sure how easily Ortiz, Drew, and Cameron (and, I think, Scutaro too) will be replaced with lower contracts next season when they don’t really have any position players who are major league ready (or will be a year from now), except maybe at SS.
Check out what’s happening this offseason. Guys are getting paid and a lot more than they are worth.
Replacing four members your starting lineup is anything but easy, especially when you don’t have young guys in the system to take over.
So it’s going to cost them.
doreen
let’s face it , objectivity does not sell.
people choose their media to reinforce what they want to hear, sort of like picking friends.
you can listen to cnn, msnbc or fox….it’s what you believe that will draw you to your choices.
after awhile, in a cynical society, people believe no one anyway, so you might as well hear what you want to hear.
Stone – ur a good poster and I respect the way you think…….but the rangers did not outbid us. If they did, there would be no dog and pony show and conference call last night and creative offer bllsht.
It occurs to me that the rest of the world outside of this blog may not think this decision is taking all that long because they’re “just not that into it” to paraphrase a common dating phrase.
being a good businessman and being a successful baseball owner are two different matters
The Yankees will not fail
JackCurry: # What is Yanks Plan B if they don’t get Lee? That can’t be answered now. Yanks have had no serious talks about Plan B. All in on Lee. 1 minute ago via Mobile Web
’m not sure how easily Ortiz, Drew, and Cameron (and, I think, Scutaro too) will be replaced with lower contracts next season when they don’t really have any position players who are major league ready (or will be a year from now), except maybe at SS
========================================
it’s going to cost them alright.
haven’t they learned their lessons from us, who once spent indiscriminately,only to no avail.
they went b*lls out for their pitching staff which could be their achilles heel.
A good businessman, which daniels is, views every monetary decision he makes as a business decision and prudently assesses the risk/reward of it……throwing his own money at Lee is not a decision that would be consistent with how he got rich.
After the years Hamilton and Cruz had, their arbitration winnings will be hefty.
Sign Fuentesto a 2 year deal, and sign Taylor Tankersley and J.P. Howell to minor league deals with an invite to ST.
The conference call that the Rangers held was just to tell their fans that they tried and basically saying if we don’t get him don’t blame us. If they were so confident then why hold the conference call? There is absolutely no way that the Rangers have a 7 year deal on the table. They were at 5 years before yesterday. So their owner saying they “improved” their offer and made a better one just means they are at 6 years now and I am sure the guaranteed money isn’t close to the Yanks offer.
mick -
You’re right!
Rangers don’t even have a die-hard fanbase. The only segment of population that this is irking are Yankees fans. Maybe Sox fans, but I think they expect him to sign here anywhere so they are not that invested in it.
Probably right Carlo – but I just do not know – I am from the DFW area – I now live in DC – but I was down there for the WS – I just do not know what really went on. Onley’s column made a lot sense today – if you have one of your owners become a surety and vouch for the contract of one player – that player essentially becomes that owner’s own personal responsibility and is separate from the team’s budget. That is why the Ray Davis inclusion in the meetings and the exclusion of the pure baseball minds – Daniels and Ryan – is puzzling and troubling.
It was Nolan and Daniels that made it possible for them to get Lee – without Daniels selling former management on going aggressive on Justin Smoak in the amateur draft – they do not acquire Lee. I have a feeling Daniels might leave if Greenberg did something in his eyes foolish with Lee – or Daniels might feel slighted by that third visit – I suspect Cashman would if Hank made a trip to Arkansas without him – Greenberg made the type of trip yesterday that the Boss used to make that drove Cashman crazy before 2007 and he received full organizational restructuring control.
The Rangers will be better off if they lose this bidding to the Yankees. They think they want him now but they are caught up in the moment….the Yankees can absorb the risk of the contract he will receive much much easier than they can.
“I thought it went well,” said Levine about the 90-minute session. “Each meeting is revealing in terms of as much as you feel good about where you stand, you learn new things if you listen. We listened a lot yesterday and listened a lot in Orlando and had prepared our offers with kind of an ear toward accommodating some of the things Darek said were important. We also had a better understanding of what the market was.
“We were much more informed in the offers we made so hopefully they were more well received than they would have been otherwise.”
Levine said the club isn’t sure what the top offer might be out in the market but hopes that the Rangers at least “got close enough to the other offers” for Lee to return.
http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas.....um=twitter
If the Rangers give him 7, we will give him 8.
We cannot be outbid. He will have to take less to stay there.
If that’s what he wants, so be it, he would not have been happy here.
He would have been another Randy Johnson or worse.
Could be he is using us to get as much as possible from them.
They give 7, we give 8, he goes back to them for 9.
yanks 27 – EXCELLENT POST – I know the DFW type area fan – their order of preference goes like this:
1 College football
1A Dallas Cowboys
2 High School football
3 Stars
4 soccer – HS and international play
5 Mavericks
The Rangers are such a distant sixth at best. . . .at least before the WS.
# Doreen December 10th, 2010 at 7:22 pm
mick -
You’re right!
==============
doreen
you seem surprised.
Here’s the problem with the notion that somehow the deep pockets of the Rangers investors is going to pony up for Lee.
That helps them get Lee but at a cost that is going to cripple their operations and will prevent them from bringing talent and retaining it.
And Lee is going to understand that and be aware of it.
They would have a team of Lee and no one else because none of the investors is going to continue to feed cash in the operations of the team if they don’t have the revenue streams to support it.
And the team has already sold it’s TV rights for two decades so their ability to generate new revenues is going to be limited.
I just don’t see how or why the Rangers would try to make an offer which would simply be much higher than the yankees. They already feel that they have the advantage on life style issues.
All they need to do is match.
But if it takes Ray Davis’s money or guarantees to match that is just setting up Lee to be Alex Rodriguez part two.
mick December 10th, 2010 at 7:19 pm
’m not sure how easily Ortiz, Drew, and Cameron (and, I think, Scutaro too) will be replaced with lower contracts next season when they don’t really have any position players who are major league ready (or will be a year from now), except maybe at SS
========================================
it’s going to cost them alright.
haven’t they learned their lessons from us, who once spent indiscriminately,only to no avail.
they went b*lls out for their pitching staff which could be their achilles heel.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In fact pitching IS their achilles heel. If anything happens to any of their 1 – 5 starters, they’re cooked.
No farm products ready to step up nor any to use as trading chips. As for the bullpen, Bard and Papelbon can’t be used every game.
blake -
I think someone else here said, though, that this is as much about beating the Yankees (if not more so) than acquiring Lee, per se.
I’m not sure I agree, but it’s a compelling opinion.
CB
Do you think Lee cares if he wins or loses if he gets the deal he wants?
Look at Werth.
While I’m aware that we’re all living much longer than say 20 years ago, I’d be really hesitant to think that someone is going to pay a 39 year old pitcher $23+M.
I had hoped that Cashman would offer a 5 year deal with an option for the 6th year.
A 7th year for a 32 year old makes little sense.
I think AJ has a bounceback year, and wins 16-18 games next season.
Hughes should also do well, between 16-19 games.
And I think Andy retires – then unretires after the All-Star break, a la Clemens.
The Yankees have missed the playoffs 1 time in nearly 2 decades….the Rangers won their first playoff series this season. If Lee wants to take less money to go to Texas and run the risk of pitching in obscurity in a couple years then that’s fine…..say byebye to the whole “big stage”, ultimate big game pitcher image he has created for himself.
Don’t see him taking less money and turning down the chance to be a legend on the biggest stage…..if he does then perhaps he isn’t what everyone thought he was anyway.
mick -
No – not surprised. I was laughing at myself really. Here I am all academic and whatever, and you hit the nail on the head. We all generally go to the source that reflects our own ideas. Even here – you know?
In fact pitching IS their achilles heel. If anything happens to any of their 1 – 5 starters, they’re cooked.
=============
As evidenced last season.
Even though they lost youk/pedroia they could have won with a better staff.
Forget their bullpen, which seems nonexistant at present.
Carlo – I think this decision is above Daniels. The new ownership group seems starstruck by the guy. I don’t even think they realize the ramifications of having 25% of the payroll in one guy. Short-term gratification.
I would hope Cashman explained that to Lee. We can absorb his contract and still surround him with elite talent year after year. Rangers will have a very difficult time doing so.
CB -
You make some interesting points – but the inclusion of Ray Davis, essentially a modern day J.R. Ewing and then some, and Buster Onley’s article about individual owner’s in a group taking on that contract – it makes sense. Davis, with the oil royalties he makes off of his fields, and believe me – the oil and gas industry is having a nice time down there b/c it is not affected by the economy – it just gives me pause. Ray may have told Lee that he will take Lee’s contract himself – and that will not affect the 100 million dollar budget the Rangers have – a kind of on the books contract that is paid off the books privately by on the owners. Read Onley’s article today if you have insider on ESPN – it was an interesting read.
But by all accounts – what has been consistent on Lee – man is a gun for hire – Phillies tried to give him Halladay’s contract last year – man did not want that – wanted the money. Look to the AJ Burnett contract negotiations with the Jays in ’05 and the Yanks in ’08 offseason to see how this agent steers his clients.
doreen
isn’t it easier that way?
we aren’t gonna solve the world’s problems, we might as well enjoy ourselves.
I keep going back and forth on this, but I guess if Texas made such a great offer, Lee would have already signed with them. I think the Yankees offer is the best, and he is trying to convince his wife to come to NY.
While I’m aware that we’re all living much longer than say 20 years ago, I’d be really hesitant to think that someone is going to pay a 39 year old pitcher $23+M.
============================================
I would hope Lee lives to age 39 but…if we can win 3-4 championships with him, I’d say it was worth it.
“Do you think Lee cares if he wins or loses if he gets the deal he wants?”
I was specifically referring to the structure of the deal not it’s total. That’s what was being discussed – the notion of a white night coming in with deep pockets to guarantee Lee gets paid.
I do think winning factors in on some level – particularly if the two deals are equal.
I don’t see many circumstances under which the Rangers are going to offer substantially more than the Yanks.
At best they are going to match.
And I do think Lee and Braunecker have discussed the notion of what staying in Texas means at that price and will it turn into Alex all over again.
I doubt Lee wants to be the fall guy for the Rangers being unable to win due to the stress his salary places on operations.
On the flip side that’s a bad division and the rangers have enough to win for a while.
I think he’ll pick the most money.
Doreen,
I really think it is at this point. I think Ryan is a very very competitive person and he has gotten caught up in this competition and has brought the rest of the organization along for the ride (just speculation on my part). The contract Lee is going to get could really hurt their organization in the long run….Dallas isn’t a baseball town, its Cowboys all the time. If the Yankees do end up with Lee then I think after some time has passed the Rangers ownership may breath a sigh of relief in a private moment.
I think he’ll pick the most money.
====================
CB
Even that is nebulous.
He’s prob with his accountant as we speak, discussing the tax situation, so less could be more.
His wife doesn’t wanna come here even though Cliff Lee loves the Yankees offer, said some recent reports.
His wife doesn’t wanna come here
=====================
So let her stay in Texas or Ark.
You get Lee for seasons 2011-2013 – maybe 2014. You get him to run that gauntlet – to setup a real nice 2 or 3 championship run – and you pay the tax on that run for the last three or four seasons – is it worth it – YES in Yankees terms – getting Lee also allows to use the surplus of prime prospects for additional pieces to couple with Lee and others. I trouble with Lee though is that if his CONTROL ever so slips – it is a nightmare scenario – I do not though see anything like that happening – at least not in the first three years of the contract. If anything – he already knows how to pitch – to be crafty – should help him later in his career.
Remember – more often than not – it is about the money – i.e. when Mike Hampton back in 2001 signed with the Rockies and said he loved the school systems for his family – he meant it was about the money b/c Colorado paid him and Denny Neagle more than anyone.
# Chase December 10th, 2010 at 7:38 pm
His wife doesn’t wanna come here even though Cliff Lee loves the Yankees offer, said some recent reports.
Stop reading Incarcerated Bob
Russell Martins stats in th NL no less. John Flaherty type numbers
Season StatsCatcher – Los Angeles Dodgers
Avg HR RBI Runs
.248 5 26 45
scott downs signed with the Angels- another one gets away
“You make some interesting points – but the inclusion of Ray Davis, essentially a modern day J.R. Ewing and then some, and Buster Onley’s article about individual owner’s in a group taking on that contract – it makes sense”
Just my sense on Davis being present. Greenberg felt that the negotiations were going in the wrong direction. And here he has a world class businessman in his ownership group – a guy who has a lot of experience doing enormous deals. Why not bring him in to grease the wheels?
I also think that bringing Davis in speaks to the weakness of Greenberg himself as the “owner.” Greenberg may technically be the owner but he’s not a strong one. Power seems to be diffuse in that organization. Ryan is the baseball guy. The partners are the ones with the money. Greenberg is owner and CEO.
It very well could be that Lee has voiced concerns about Greenberg’s backing and his ability to follow up on what he says as he’s not the one with the cash. Lee could have had concerns about the Rangers ownership structure and their commitment to the team and whether it maps to what Greenberg is saying. I know I would.
Davis may have been there as a representative of the partners to voice their committment to the team and support for Greenberg and his vision for the team.
Personally, I would not have a great deal of trust in what Greenberg or Ryan tells me if I’m Lee. They simply don’t have the money. And in turn they aren’t going to have bottom line power in the organization.
If Greenberg/ Ryan want to say expand the stadium and put in new seats and the partners say no it’s not going to happen. If Daniels comes to Greenberg and wants to add salary at the trade deadline but the teams resources are at budget they may not be able to add talent if the partners with the money say no. I’m just throwing scenarios out there but those kinds of things happen all the time. The people with money have the power.
If I were Lee I would want to hear directly from the power sources about how they see the team’s future and their commitment.
I wouldn’t assume Davis went there to commit his own personal wealth.
Thanks for reminding me where that lee’s wife sht came from, Carl.
feliciano…a workhorse
yanks must get 4 more lefties just for the rs. 2 are lee and andy + 2 relievers
The Yankees offer must be around $160-168 x 7 or thereabouts. My best guess is that the Texas offer is maybe $130 x 6, with an incentive option 7? At best its $140 x 6.
Is Cliff Lee going to leave that much on the table? If Texas goes to $140 x 6, do they really want to kill their franchise under the weight of the contract? Yankees TV money dwarfs the Texas TV money, even in the rosiest of scenarios. The Texas guys are going to want a $130-150 payroll?
The Lees need to do what’s best for them. But if this is the scenario, and he goes to Texas, the players union is going to crucify him and Braunecker.
Mick – a workhorse is a good thing to have, until they stop being workhorses…..and in relievers terms, when the workhorse label wears thin, they stink.
If Lee signs with the Rangers, the Yankees get screwed in more than one way.
Cashman is holding off making moves, until he knows want happens with Lee, so, the longer he waits to say no to us, the more players come off the board, and we’ll be left with the scapes.
Maybe this is part of Texas’ plan, to really put it to us.
Cashman needs to make his moves now, waiting any longer could destroy the season. We might just find out how ML ready those top prospects really are, whether we like it or not.
We first heard Lee would decide by the weekend, now it may be Tuesday, come Tuesday it’ll be next weekend, time to make the necessary moves.
When you are going to retire at 40 then usually its best to take the opportunity that provides you with the most financial benefit….both while playing and post career. Either way, Cliff Lee is going to have more more than he can ever spend but does he want to create a generational type fortune and set his great grandchildren up…..we’ll see.
Carlo,
Lee’s wife has spoken about how happy she is for Lee to be in Texas…
Now, rather suddenly and unexpectedly, Cliff is a mere one-hour flight or 4 1/2-hour drive away.
“It’s been a huge thing, totally, because we’ve never had it,” Kristen says. “We’ve never played close to home. It’s definitely nice.”
A month into Cliff’s Rangers tenure, Kristen and the kids returned to Benton. But this time, when his team played a Sunday afternoon home game, Cliff had the convenience and team’s blessing to fly to Arkansas and stay until Tuesday morning.
“He’d never been home [in Arkansas] one single time, ever, during the season,” Kristen says. “It’s saved me and the kids a lot of trips.”
But guess what? The move they didn’t expect has in many ways been their most rewarding.
It’s amazing how things work,” she said. “You’re expected to win in New York. And in Texas, I feel like he’s getting the glory that he deserves. He doesn’t look for it, but I feel like he deserves a little bit of glory.
“He works so hard and we’ve been through so much, on the field and off. It’s nice to see it come around full circle and know that everything happens for a reason.”
Read more: http://www.thirdage.com/news/c.....z17lCIMZ1o
ick – a workhorse is a good thing to have, until they stop being workhorses…..and in relievers terms, when the workhorse label wears thin, they stink.
=============
One year at a time, Carlo
Cashman is holding off making moves,
=======
AL
I’m sure Cash is working the phones.
I was in love with the idea of Lee becoming a Yankee, now, I wish we’d have gone in a different direction from the start.
Forced Lee prediction throwdown?
Yes, Cliff Lee will be a Yankee.
(even though a Rangers guy with a lot of money visited Lee in Arkansas!)
Why do people assume Lee isn’t coming here because of the time frame?
What is the rush? Who are all these players we are losing out on?
Feliciano or Choate can wait.
Let’s say TEX has an offer to Lee of 6/150, and Lee through his agent advises Cashman he needs 7/170 or he is signing with TEX.
If you are Hal do you sign off on it? Or let him go to TEX?
Mick – I don’t hate the feliciano deal, but if he is getting two year offers I don’t want him.
yankee21
That is a no brainer.
Clown – that article means nothing to me. Its a bunch of sentimental BS akin to what we read with CC on the west coast.
Let’s say TEX has an offer to Lee of 6/150, and Lee through his agent advises Cashman he needs 7/170 or he is signing with TEX.
========================
He then goes back to Ryan for a match.
And after they match it, he goes back to us for an 8th year.
“(even though a Rangers guy with a lot of money visited Lee in Arkansas!)”
That’s the thing. Why would a billionaire oilman bother going to Arkansas to meet a free agent unless he was dead serious about signing him and explaining his deep-pocketed commitment to the team?
Carlo,
But it means something to Lee.
“Let’s say TEX has an offer to Lee of 6/150, and Lee through his agent advises Cashman he needs 7/170 or he is signing with TEX.”
As long as he is willing to come here, absolutely.
At this point, you hope he convinces his wife enough to where they are even willing to come back to us for the last shot, and not just take the Texas offer and say Thanks to us.
how often has a player turned down more $$ because their wife prefers to live in a different city for the summer?
I’m not saying it can’t or won’t happen, but I doubt it’s happened very often (if ever).
“Clown – that article means nothing to me. Its a bunch of sentimental BS akin to what we read with CC on the west coast.”
Nobody from CC’s camp, including his agent, did any talking during their negotiation.
You didn’t hear CC’s wife express her affinity for the Bay Area. As others have said, I think the wifey is the problem here. I think Cliff wants to come here and win on the big stage.
The funny part is that in the same article where she condemned the horrible fans, she spoke glowingly about the Rangers and Texas. I don’t think she was planting anything, I think she was just honest.
BD, Maddox.
Maddux*
These are baseball players…..the wives know the deal…..her “desire” to be at home could fill her wallet more than it already is or it could be legit……but even if it is, she isn’t making the decision
Chase,
never heard that and can’t find a link to anything suggesting that. I’m not saying it’s not true, but even if so, it still seems rare.
BD –
I also doubt it happens often. But there may be other factors…his preference for the southwest, his child’s health, being the face of a franchise rather than the 4th or 5th biggest name, the chance to be a cornerstone of a rebuilt team…and still bank $20M+ either way. And as for competition, he pretty much can assume he will be in the playoffs every year on either team. Texas with Lee is much better than LA or Oakland (and NY is a lock to go whether they win or go as WC).
The yankees can get Cliff Lee a new, better wife
Jerkface December 10th, 2010 at 8:25 pm
The yankees can get Cliff Lee a new, better wife
——————————————————–
Line of the Night so far.
BD, Maddux didn’t wanna come to the Yankees at all.
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/12.....addux.html
“At this point it’s common knowledge that Greg Maddux turned down Yankee money to sign with the Braves. The Yankees had offered five years at $34 million in the winter of 1992-93, the year after Maddux had won the Cy Young award with the Cubs. Instead he signed a five-year, $28 million deal with Atlanta. That’s $6 million, or 18 percent, less than what the Yankees offered. This would be akin to CC Sabathia having signed with the Giants for seven years and $132 million.”
I also doubt it happens often. But there may be other factors…his preference for the southwest, his child’s health, being the face of a franchise rather than the 4th or 5th biggest name, the chance to be a cornerstone of a rebuilt team…and still bank $20M+ either way. And as for competition, he pretty much can assume he will be in the playoffs every year on either team. Texas with Lee is much better than LA or Oakland (and NY is a lock to go whether they win or go as WC).
–
Lee does not want to be the face of a franchise, he is low key. He could not be the cornerstone of the Rangers, he’d have to be the entire foundation and first floor. The Angels and Mariners maintain a payroll that is higher than Texas, so unless Texas is going to jump up to a 120 mil annual pay roll, that team is always going to be Lee and some prospects/cheap veterans. It will be just as easy for an Angels team without an injured Morales to take the division away from the Rangers. Don’t forget that the Angels already have some very good pitching.
Weaver, Haren, Santana is a nice top 3.
Texas will eventually let Hamilton walk or have to shell out 25 mil per year for him.
They will have to let cruz walk or shell out 20 mil for him.
CJ wilson is gone.
Colby Lewis will be gone.
If Lee’s wife really is the reason for the holdup right now, I think Mr. and Mrs. CC might be the Yankees’ best shot at changing her mind, but who knows anymore. I hate the waiting game, but if it means we get Lee, I’ll be happy to wait till the day before ST starts.
No team other than the Yankees has shown a willingness to build a club around multiple 20 mil AAV contracts.
The red sox don’t even do it because they tricked Pedroia and youkilis into signing sweet heart deals.
Smoltz also is believed to have turned down a $53 million contract from George Steinbrenner to sign for $30 million with the Braves
Smoltz had real loyalty with the Braves as he had played there for years…..not 3 months.
Levine said the decision is one that Lee’s entire family is involved in making, including Kristen, Lee’s wife.
“It’s definitely a family decision and it should be,” Levine said. “When we sit there and make a presentation, Kristen is right there. She’s been central to the discussion and an active participant.
Levine believes that Lee’s 4 1/2 months in Texas helps the club’s chances.
“He’s very straight-forward and every time we’ve met with him, he’s been straight on that point that he enjoyed his time with us,” Levine said. “I think he has a strong affinity for the team and there are a lot of players he considers very good friends despite only spending four-plus months with them. Every now and then you catch him talking about the team saying ‘we.’ I still think there’s that groundswell and he has that connection.”
Clownthrowindown
This is in response to the article you posted. In it, his wife said in texas there was no pressure but in NY they expect you to win. A lot of the expectation to win in NY is because they have such big contracts. If he signed a huge contract with texas they will expect him to win every game. There will still be the pressure, maybe not as great because the yankee fans are extremely passionate about winning, but they aren’t going to pay him a ton and not expect him to win.
Chase,
I wasn’t suggesting a player hadn’t passed on a Yankee contract for less.
As I clearly stated, and you blatantly neglected, “because their wife prefers to live in a different city for the summer? ”
I never said anything about the Yankees, either.
Carlo -
Are you married?
Yes Doreen and if my wife married me knowing I was a baseball player then she would be prepared for things like this and be understanding that this was the life she married into. Into, she married a finance guy, and when we discussed moving out of the city to NJ, all that we spoke about was how it would affect my job given the commute.
Can we please find more Jeters who truly desire to be a Yankee and don’t have sensitive wives swaying their decisions?
RS,
Good luck with that
It’s not just the Yankees. MLB players want to get paid.
I’m sure there are some players who would love to play for the Yankees. Problem is, they love money just a little bit more.
It would be hilarious if Cashman called Braunecker and told him the Yankees are folding their cards and are out on Lee. Instead they’ll force feed a few pitchers with expected better results.
Then Texas turns around and tells Lee they can’t go more than 3 years at $7.25M per year with a team option of a 4th year with a buyout of $1M due to payroll restraints.
Braunecker would be at Cashman’s door with a high powered bullhorn begging him to re-consider his original offer.
Carlo -
I was curious.
I have had to deal with my husband’s relocation to Chicago and other things. We discuss things together.
I think my husband and I know each other very well. I think I try to listen between the lines. I try to gauge what my husband wants, what I think is best for him and for us; and usually there is some sacrifice involved.
But the thing is, you have to be sure that both of you can handle the sacrifice.
I think if Kristen ran the show, the decision would be made.
I think they are probably both hashing this out. It’s not as simple as “she’s a baseball wife, she knows the deal.” Here they have a chance to have it all – the money, the baseball life AND a life as normal as a ballplayer’s life can be. Or he can go to a team where they do what all ballplayers dream of doing – playing on a team that not only is committed to winning but actually does it.
I will be very disappointed if they decide to stay in Texas, but I think they’re at least weighing all the pros and cons.
Doreen – to your point, I am not a clown male egomaniac who thinks the wife should just be dragged along. That’s never what I said. I look at these situations though and I believe its the ballplayers decision to the extent the family can cope with it. When u marry a ballplayer, u know this stuff going in, u adjust to it and u get used to it……yes, I agree, she should have her say, but in the end, I believe cliff will make the call knowing she will support it either way.
Also, we don’t know the relationship they have…..its very possible he calls all the shots and doesn’t care what she wants to do.
Let’s not forget one thing: We never really heard Kristen say anything about where she wants to live. On top of that, she can live wherever the heck she wants to from November through March. For all we know, she has always dreamed of living close to NYC. And even if that isn’t the case, she can spend her entire time in the suburbs and never even venture into the city. She can pretty much do whatever the heck she wants to do, really. I am not trying to make it out as if her life is unchanged, because obviously it does change. But they’ll be able to own a house in each of the 50 states if that is what she desires.
I wonder if the Yankees offered Lee a similar “opt out” that Sabathia got in his deal to help ease the burden a bit. “If you don’t like it here after 3 or 4 years, you can go right back on the market if you wish”.