All quiet on a rainy Sunday
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 12, 2010 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
Just checked in with the Yankees front office. As you might suspect, they still haven’t heard anything from Cliff Lee. Looks like this thing is, in fact, going to linger through the entire weekend.
Gordon Edes in Boston reports that there’s also no news on Russell Martin.
Two items of marginal Yankees interest.
1. The Marlins are reportedly working toward signing Randy Choate. Only interesting because Choate seems to fit the Yankees needs as well.
2. The Rockies have signed Eric Duncan to a minor league deal. The former Yankees first-round pick was widely regarded as one of the hardest workers in the system, but he topped out at Triple-A before becoming a utility type in the Braves system last year. Can’t say this strongly enough: He’s a terrific guy, does everything the right way, and I’d love to see the upper-level numbers finally take the next step. Best of luck to him.
the yankees do realize they need a second lefty in the pen right?
I read an article yesterday that said the Yankees are allowed to pay Lee’s tax on the contract so he wouldn’t have to pay the money. So basically he would get the full $160m or whatever they offered. That’s crazy. The Yankees shouldn’t up the offer or do anything like that. Either he wants to be a Yankee or not. If not let him go back to that one year wonder team but they shouldn’t have to beg the guy.
Randy Choate is not the answer…dear god please no…remember how terrible he was for us in 2001? he didnt look much better this year in tampa. id rather go with 1 lefty than sign him.
http://sportsthunderdome.blogspot.com/
My plan B would be Zack Greinke + Matt Kemp + Andy Pettitte/Rafael Soriano + Russell Martin + Lastings Milledge.
dont want choate but i want to get a lefty before they are all gone.
Captain Clutch, it wasn’t that the Yankees would pay his total taxes, it was the NYC taxes. Not really sure how that would work, but it isn’t the full fare.
Ace1
While the Yankees search for a setup guy and a second lefty who fits their budget, Aroldis Chapman will be earning about the same amount of money as Joaquin Benoit. Not to mention, Aroldis Chapman would’ve been a nice player to groom as a closer as Mo completes his final 2 years with the Yanks.
That makes me sick to my stomach.
Bret, it would cost a ton to trade for both Kemp and Grienke. It just seems like too much to give up in quality prospects to me.
Kemp wasn’t all that hot last season either, if I am remembering correctly and not mis-remembering.
Teams are making moves left and right — that is , except our Yankees .
Looks like Brian Cashman is content to turn 2011 into a rebuilding year .
Bret- I really don’t understand why the Yankees, or a number of other clubs, weren’t in on Chapman when they had the chance either. That boy can THROW! It would have been nice having that arm in the pen.
Happy New Year
Any news on Mark Prior?
If you’re the Yankees and you ante up 160 million dollars “tax-free” wouldn’t you have enough leverage to buy a grace period with Lee and his agent so that you can plan for Plan B if you need to and avoid tying up your entire off season plan in one player?
Couldn’t you say, our final offer is 160 million, take your time but if you decide to sign with Texas, we would like 2 days advance notice or an entire weekend so that we can execute a contingency plan?
Could you do that?
Is it possible the Yankees have their answer and are advancing their plan behind the scenes for life with or without Cliff Lee?
For me it’s hard to believe that the Yankees would ever put themselves in a position where their backs are entirely up against the wall.
CB,
What do you think, the story breaks tonight or they wait until tomorrow morning?
I’m thinking we hear late tonight.
Choate’s #s are skewed because they factor in his wretched stats vs. right-handed hitters.
As a strict LOOGY, I think he’d highly successful.
Amare is a beast.
Yogi Mantle December 12th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
Bret, it would cost a ton to trade for both Kemp and Grienke. It just seems like too much to give up in quality prospects to me.
**********
I agree. All I can say is…Plan B is Plan B for a reason.
Would it be too far out of the realm of possibility for the Rangers to bring Cliff Lee out before the Cowboys play in Arlington tonight and have him make his I’m Back announcement?????
Let Eric Duncan be a prime example why prospects should be traded for established players…many prospects never pan out…
At this rate, Lee will be retired before he makes his decision…
Agreed DocTodd I remenmber way back when …Fans didnot want Duncan included in a big Unit trade
Based on gut, not reporting, I think Lee camp has used time expertly to discomfort #Yankees, get edgy to 1 last time up offer, seal deal
about 2 hours ago via ÜberTwitter
http://twitter.com/joelsherman1
I wouldn’t be shocked if Lee goes away and Cashman does relatively little. Can you imagine how other teams will try to gauge us. No one is going to feel sorry for the Yankees.
My plan if Lee Does not sign while not making crazy trades and burning the farm…
Try to get Pettitte to come back as much as you can.. Sign a few starters trying to come back from injury Webb, Frances, Young, and Wang come to mind…see if 1 can stick.
Also kick tires on jarrod washburn…
build the best bullpen possible Sign soriano to setup with idea he takes over for mo in a couple years… try to get fuentes or feliciano for lhp….do your best to make every gm a 6 inning gm…
Save farm for 7/31 deadline to add what you need.
This DocTodd guy makes an excellent and genius post – I remember when fans were irate with Stick and new management Bob Watson for trading generational Russ Davis to Seattle for Tino Martinez and Jeff Nelson – absolutely irate. It was the same group that wanted Tate Seefried to man 1b after Mattingly retired and to have Russ Davis man third.
Randy Choate a fit for the Yanks? Oh please. He sux big time. Living in FLA I’ve seen enough of him in Tampa. Seriously, Choate is no good!
I’m tired of all this Lee nonsense, but I must admit I’d like Cashman to make a stealth visit to Arkansas tonight to up the offer and finally close the deal…just want to see Nolan Ryan seethe, like he did during the World Series…
I refer to him as Randy Choke..
“I’m thinking we hear late tonight.”
wouldn’t surprise me….that way the media would have time to get their stories written for Monday morning. I think it’ll either be tonight or tomorrow night….
In anticipation of the worst, I have blocked my Boston friends phone numbers, twitter feeds and emails.
Chad! Tweet C C and ask him to give Lee a call!
who picked the Giants and Rangers to be in world series last December… I still go back to the 03’04 offseason when we got Javy, Brown, Sheff, Arod, Lofton and Tom Gordon…
I thought the Yanks had at least 2 or 3 championships…
My point that I try to remind myself is nobody really knows and have some patience.
Can patience get out lefties?
LGY-
I think we might hear a leak late tonight to make the news in the morning. Just a guess.
In 124 ABs last season, lefties managed 1 HR vs. Choate (w/this slash line: .202/.263/.266).
Agreed WCYF but the point I am trying to make is everyone is going to kill the Yanks when talking about our team on paper…We will make moves some that look good and some that don’t.
But no one knows how the season will play out. It would be kind of fun to not be the favorites and have some guys come along and have good years and surprise everyone.
Every lefty reliever that comes off the market gives me more hope that we won’t go into next year with two lefties.
hardwired7 December 12th, 2010 at 3:02 pm
In 124 ABs last season, lefties managed 1 HR vs. Choate (w/this slash line: .202/.263/.266
+++++
You are talking about the Randy Choate from the Tampa Rays? How many games/leads did he blow? He’s pretty wild also. Couldn’t handle NY before and can’t handle NY now. Forget Choke!
The Yankees HAVE a second lefty specialist in the pen.
His name is Mariano Rivera, the bat company’s best friend.
Now if you want to talk MIDDLE RELIEF lefty, that’s different.
I was kidding Elijah. But that is a nice thought, the Yankees being the underdog and winning it all with young, hungry, cost-controlled talent.
Sorry, I must have lapsed into unconsciousness for a second there!
You can’t bring Mo in to get lefties out in the 7th and 8th innings which is what a loogy needs to do. Mo at this age will most likely be limited to one inning in a save situation.
I just saw this article in the NY Post that says Cashman will not up the offer to Lee.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports.....zlVaKCZSoI
CB,
I know its premature and I still feel pretty good about Lee signing with the Yanks….but in the event that he stays in Texas, what are your thoughts on Greinke? Do you think he can be acquired without giving up Montero and in that situation would you pursue it?
Asked if during those post-Winter Meeting talks if the Yankees increased their offer to Lee in years or dollars, Cashman said, “No.’’
With Lee deciding between the Rangers and Yankees, Cashman was asked if at some point the Yankees would up their offer.
“No,’’ said Cashman, who spent his time waiting for Lee’s decision Christmas shopping in Connecticut.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports.....z17vkXSwT1
I may be interpreting this wrong or reading too much into it, but if Cashman is publicly acknowledging he is not raising the offer I think it is in response to send a message to Lee’s camp.
If so, it really is all about the money and Braunecker is just trying to milk every last cent here.
Is Marte out for the entire season? I thought he’ll be ready mid-season? Instead of squandering resources on a second lefty, the Yankees should concentrate on getting a bona-fide elite late inning reliever regardless of handedness. They won’t need the luxury and leverage of having the second lefty along with Boone until the playoffs anyways. It really seems like a problem they can address in season when they have a better idea of Marte’s health.
Right now the setup guy is Joba.
How many people think that is going to last?
I personally don’t think it will.
George King of the NYPost updated an article at 2:22PM today saying the Yanks will not up the offer to Lee.
Can’t figure the delay with getting another bullpen LH. If Cashman doesn’t move soon, Feliciano will sign with Toronto after their loss of Scott Downs to L.A.
Why does everything hinge on Lee’s decision ? Cashman can’t be sitting at home in Conn. waiting for something to come down his chimney.
Eh, they said they wouldn’t go 7 also. We’ll see……I don’t think they’ll bump it a lot, like going to 8 years or anything but if a few tack on dollars makes a difference then I doubt they are saying no at this point.
BTW….by saying its in the 160 million dollar “range”, that gives them leeway right there.
Yes – Marte will not pitch for the Yankees…..likely ever again since this is fortunately year 3 of his putrid deal. basically, he got $12 mm to get ryan howard out a few times in 2009.
i think i’m now officially rooting for lee to go to texas.
i realize for cashman that lee was his get out of jail free card, but i think a lot could be done with 25 million a year to get players who would jump at the chance to be a yankee.
lee’s lack of enthusiasm for being a yankee is the last straw for me.
let him stay in texas where we can beat him and the depleted rangers for the next 7 years.
Carlo,
Ok. Didn’t know Marte’s 100% done. Still don’t want Feliciano. The Yankees are better off concentrating on an elite late inning reliever and adding a situational lefty in-season before the playoffs.
If Lee signs, does anyone think the Yankees will not make an offer to Pettitte but instead invest that money in Rafael Soriano???
I know Soriano is a closer but he could be paid like one to set up for 2 years, close on occasion then take over the closer role.
Money is money.
agree. at this point, i would be content pulling the low risk high reward card with webb, wang, harden, prior, etc and seeing which could can actually join the rotation.
randy l. December 12th, 2010 at 3:36 pm
i think i’m now officially rooting for lee to go to texas.
i realize for cashman that lee was his get out of jail free card, but i think a lot could be done with 25 million a year to get players who would jump at the chance to be a yankee.
lee’s lack of enthusiasm for being a yankee is the last straw for me.
let him stay in texas where we can beat him and the depleted rangers for the next 7 years.
——-
That’s quite a pretentious point of view. The man regularly dominates the Yankees, yes!, he should jump at the chance to be on the team! Take a discount even! Why didn’t his agent pitch us on him?! We’re clearly doing him a favor by even entertaining the thought of signing him.
It took CC a bit of time to decide on the Yankees too. Was he any less “enthusiastic” for it?
“i think i’m now officially rooting for lee to go to texas.”
lol, patience grasshopper. If he does choose Texas then that means his heart wasn’t in NY anyway and he will have actually chosen to take less money to play with the Rangers. He’ll be risking his legacy and an annual chance at winning the WS as well.
If Texas does retain Lee I’ll be very curious what they tell CJ Wilson next winter when his turn at big money comes around…..
Can’t pay Soriano closer money to use him as a setup guy. Just doesn’t make sense to me. Would go with Wood again to fill that role since he will be cheaper.
People have to remember, if we get Lee then we have two guys in CC and Lee who don’t tax the pen…..hughes kid gloves are off so he can save the pen a bit there…..and burnett can’t be much worse, can he?
Blake – how about this message to CJ Wilson:
Wilson camp: “well fellas, u paid cliff big time, time to cough it up for CJ”
Rangers: “dog, check urself, ur not very good, u’ll get very little and ur free to walk”.
How much has Wang’s injury screwed up the Yankees long term plans? You develop a starting pitcher who gives you 19 wins and a mid-3.00 ERA at a cheap price, and then poof! he’s gone. Would be nice to have him along with CC and Hughes at the top of the rotation, especially since all three would be in their prime.
All this impatience. Wasn’t the point of free agency that players at last could decide where they wanted to play, and for how much? So, he’s exercising the right that was won for him by Curt Flood, Andy Messersmith, and the Players Association.
Personally, I think the Yanks will figure out a way to win regardless of what Lee decides.
Carlo,
OK. I’m fine with Wood. Marmol will be a free agent in 2 years anyways.
Do you think if Lee signs the Yankees don’t make an offer to Pettitte but instead invest it in Kerry Wood?
Carlo,
that or, yea…..we’re kinda out of money. Wilson is a free agent after 2011, Hamilton after 2012, and Cruz after 2013. Are they going to hand out a big contract 4 years in a row? They are looking at around 75 million bucks in those 4 players if they are planning on keeping them all long term.
It could just be that the Lee family would like to enjoy this weekend without handling endless phone calls from the organization he goes with. And the mediots.
Which he would be getting if he agreed the past few days. Why Monday morning makes sense.
“Personally, I think the Yanks will figure out a way to win regardless of what Lee decides.”
agreed. The Yankees have already added a 21 year old year catcher with a plus bat to their roster
Randy Choate had a proclivity to bean batters in the shins when he was here.
I guess/hope his control has improved.
randy l. December 12th, 2010 at 3:36 pm
i think i’m now officially rooting for lee to go to texas.
i realize for cashman that lee was his get out of jail free card, but i think a lot could be done with 25 million a year to get players who would jump at the chance to be a yankee.
lee’s lack of enthusiasm for being a yankee is the last straw for me.
let him stay in texas where we can beat him and the depleted rangers for the next 7 years.
———————————————————————————————————————-
Randy, I’d pull the cork tomorrow at 11:00 AM EST tomorrow and sign two rid-range starters and beef up the bullpen.
I know Soriano is a closer but he could be paid like one to set up for 2 years, close on occasion then take over the closer role.
=====================
Brett-
Are you paying him Mariano type closer money since he will be taking his job in 3 years?
I doubt they do that but if they can get him for say 30/3 , not a bad idea.
Bottom line is we can get him if we want him, it might depend on Lee.
GB7,
why and who would you sign?
@brett – no, there is money for andy and they will prioritize him over the pen financially speaking
@blake – exactly, this is why I truly believe texas wants lee back or is showing they do to please their fans……his return will hurt them longer term and the window to win may close after 2011 given the circumstances u mention
Also, they are confident they can trade for greinke…..then why not just do that and leave money in the tank for other free agents and to extend ur own guys?
make that 2 years, if Mo doesn’t re-sign.
This has nothing to do with Lee not wanting to come to the Yankees. This has to do with Sabathia getting an extra 23M out of nowhere just by being patient.
I think the 7 year offer by the Yankees is for a lower AAV than 23M or it’s not guaranteed, but there is no reason for the Yankees to increase it.
The Agent is trying to use all the meetings with Texas, the 3rd team in the mix leaks, leaks about the wife, taxes treatment leaks, ease of travel home from texas leaks and time delays to get the Yankees to panic.
I get the feeling NYY have Feliciano wrapped up.
“Also, they are confident they can trade for greinke…..then why not just do that and leave money in the tank for other free agents and to extend ur own guys?”
depending on what Greinke would cost them…..they would be much better off doing just that.
That team isn’t as young as it seems and everyone makes them out to be.
It seems like they are because they have so many arbitration guys but really those players just got late starts at being good. Hamilton, Cruz, Wilson, Kinsler, Lewis etc are all either already 30 or getting close to it. They really aren’t any younger than the Yankees are.
‘Randy, I’d pull the cork tomorrow at 11:00 AM EST tomorrow and sign two rid-range starters and beef up the bullpen.”
i haven’t even looked.
any ideas for mid level starters?
IF the Rangers lose out with Lee they could take Neftali Feliz out of the bullpen as their closer, make him a starter, and sign Rafael Soriano to close. Possibly sign Beltre and put Michael Young at 1st base. The Angels seem to be dragging their feet on Soriano and Beltre.
Blake, because it’s gotten beyond the point that he’d no longer be cost effective. Assuning that Pettitte doesn’t return, Garcia, Francis or that type or gamble on a minor league contract with Webb. Bullpen with Feliciano, Rauch or Wood and Brackman and Chamberlain is up to him. That would cost less than Lee and probably provide more wins. If they bomb out, start hand feeding the kids.
Lee won’t sign with Yankees.
Cashman’s pitching building in last few years continues to suffer, except CC.
I’ve long advocated for adding a lefty to the pen and maybe a Soriano , Fuentes or Wood to help strengthen the pen. Glad to see folks finally coming around to the concept.
Guys – mid level starters are not cheap and we have had very little sucess winning in October with mid level guys: leiber, aging clemens, aging el duque, ….heck in 2009 we couldn’t even risk using a 4th starter.
obaTipsHisCap December 12th, 2010 at 4:04 pm
Lee won’t sign with Yankees.
Cashman’s pitching building in last few years continues to suffer, except CC.
AGREE generally but Phil Hughes says hello there…
8th inning guy? Cashman likes Joba?
LOL
Mid-level starters are $25 mil a piece, either.
Carlo,
With a staff headed by CC, Lee, Hughes and AJ, do you really think Pettitte will get an offer instead of using the money to sure up the bench, bullpen and maybe upgrade LF? Maybe the Yankees want to see Brackman, Nova and Noesi compete for that 5th spot in the rotation. Maybe Pettitte will retire if he sees that the Yankees aren’t desperate to bring him back. I dunno.
GB, I agree that a combination of arms: a Webb, or Garcia, or Francis, Feliciano, with a Rauch, or Wood or Fuentes, plus Brackman and Chamberlain would be the way to go. Lower cost, more options, no long term commitment.
Micheal Young: 34
Josh Hamilton: 30 (turns in May)
Nelson Cruz: 30
Ian Kinsler: 28
Vlad Guerrero: 36 (in February)
CJ Wilson: 30
Colby Lewis: 31
Not as young as they seem…
Mid-level starters ***aren’t*** $25 mil
What if the scenario was as follows for those of you who are concerned about costs:
Sign lee for $23 mm per year.
Don’t sign andy for $11/12 mm
Sign low cost high ceiling guy for $5 mm or so guaranteed.
I would rather a true ace and a lesser guy than no ace and andy at that price with a few questionmarks.
Putting a time limit on the offer doesn’t make any sense from a Yankee perspective.
What do you gain from putting a time limit on? Are the Yankees losing out on other options?
If the Yankees want Lee enough that they are willing to pay him 7/160 or thereabouts, they are not going to say nevermind we just want you as long as you make a decision right now.
I’m starting to think the Yankees bid is safely more than the Rangers and that it’s as high as it is because it allows the Yankees to execute so many other important moves short and long term.
I think Cliff Lee will be a Yankee.
So to answer LGY’s question of a day or 2 ago, I say “yes”, Lee will be fitted for pinstripes.
GB,
cost effective is a relative term for the Yankees….he is going to cost a lot and it is a big investment, but its usually better to invest more in a known commodity than to throw money at maybes. (Nick Johnson, Randy Winn, Vasquez etc).
Good to hear Hitman.
“All this impatience. Wasn’t the point of free agency that players at last could decide where they wanted to play, and for how much? So, he’s exercising the right that was won for him by Curt Flood, Andy Messersmith, and the Players Association.”
joe on long island-
the problem is that i haven’t heard one thing for lee, his family, his friends, or anyone that he wants to play in new york.
he’s simply not showing enough interest for me to be interested in him being a yankee.
i do not have a good feeling about lee long term.
Ok – so the consensus now is that we are better off without cliff lee. I love it.
I can only imagine how many of you will be doing an about face come June.
randy,
Lee doesn’t have anything to gain from a negotiating standpoint that he wants to play in NY.
His best play is to make it seem like he doesn’t want to come here or prefers Texas to get the most $.
We should not read into “agent speak.”
LGY – I hope u have me recorded as an unwavering yes lee signs with yankees. And when he does, I will celebrate…..despite most people worrying themselves sick about our team in 2016/2017.
I haven’t heard Lee say anything of substance ever really….which makes him perfect for the NY media.
Reports were that he was furious when Jack Z backed out on the Yankee deal at the deadline. Who knows if that’s true but there has been so much rumor and speculation floating around this whole thing that I’m not forming any opinions on what Lee does or doesn’t want to do until the truth comes out for sure and he signs his contract.
Who knew how much CC would love being a Yankee when he was a FA?
No one did. Everyone thought he didn’t want to come here.
Now 2 years later CC is a great Yankee, loves it here to the point where he is saying he won’t opt out, has moved his family here year round, is courtside at the Knicks all the time, and is a WS champion.
We have no idea how Lee really feels about being in NY or a Yankee.
Signing guys like Garcia or Francis to pitch in the Yankee rotation who very likely can’t even get a major league contract at this point could end up costing the Yankees more than Lee does in an effort to make up for their likely predictable poor performance, the trading of prospects, the overpay of a lesser pitcher as a FA like CJ Wilson, and lost playoff revenue.
Did CC or did CC not say “I don’t think we’ll have to do much recruiting” when asked about Lee one day being a Yankee?
That’s a close friend who seems to know very well Lee wanted to be here.
All that has changed now is that its negotiating season.
blake December 12th, 2010 at 4:12 pm
GB,
cost effective is a relative term for the Yankees….he is going to cost a lot and it is a big investment, but its usually better to invest more in a known commodity than to throw money at maybes. (Nick Johnson, Randy Winn, Vasquez etc).
———————————————————————————————————————-
Pitchers like Francis and Garcia won’t be getting any $8 mil contracts unril the prove they can win again. My guess is that both can be had for less than $8-9 mil total. Garcia earned $1 mil last year and Francis less than $6 mil.
“How much has Wang’s injury screwed up the Yankees long term plans? You develop a starting pitcher who gives you 19 wins and a mid-3.00 ERA at a cheap price, and then poof! he’s gone.”
hey , any gm could forget that he told his star pitcher to do nothing all winter after a major injury and then throw him out there for a full spring training without checking to see if any of his muscles had weakened from the non activity.
“Pitchers like Francis and Garcia won’t be getting any $8 mil contracts unril the prove they can win again. My guess is that both can be had for less than $8-9 mil total. Garcia earned $1 mil last year and Francis less than $6 mil.”
Yea….but those guys aren’t much good. They could be place holders I guess but barring a huge leap forward by Hughes and a big rebound by AJ, the Yanks really need more than that if they are truly going to compete for a championship in this upcoming season…..IMO.
I do understand the frustrations though GB and I think we may have an answer by 11:00 tomorrow anyway
I can’t tell, is this freddy garcia conversation serious? Ivan Nova is better than Freddy Garcia right now. The guy is abysmal. And jeff francis? Seriously? We’re talking about one guy who was good, but not great, 5+ years ago, and another guy who had a decent season or two IN THE NL WEST.
randy,
Why do you think Cashman is making medical/physical rehab decisions?
LGY,
Good thing my “yes” vote on Lee was recorded 24 hours ago on my pro-Yankees rumor mill Twitter account.
@PeteAbe Cliff Lee + wife set to make decision tomorrow! Someone connected to the Lee’s says YANKEES YANKEES YANKEES!!! #Yankees #CliffLee
about 24 hours ago via web in reply to PeteAbe
Bret-
Hope you’re right about Lee. Right now we have 8 pitchers. I would be very happy with these 12
Sabathia
Lee
Hughes
Burnett
Pettitte or Chris Young[had a strong September comeback from injury]
Rivera
Wood
Robertson
Chamberlain
Logan
Fuentes[gives a different look while feliciano is purely a lefty specialist]
Rauch or Nova or Brackman
LGY – good question re cashman medical plans. I found that to be a very bizarre place to lay blame….then again, since u are jean alterman, u can’t be trusted.
Name NYYrumors
Bio The Red Sox have ESPN to hype their team and bash the rest. The New York Yankees have NYYrumors on Twitter.
YankeeTrader,
After Sheets signed for 10 million, do you think it’s possible for the Yankees to get someone like Chris Young for 5 million? It would be nice…
I’m fine with Nova + Brackman + Noesi fighting for starts in the 5th starter role. Nova alone has better stuff than Vazquez.
“Why do you think Cashman is making medical/physical rehab decisions?”
lgy-
it’s not worth me debating about the obvious mistreatment of wang on his winter rehab of doing no physical activity and then taking part in a full spring training with a hip at half strength.
the yankees never even checked for the weak muscles.
the reason i know they didn’t is it couldn’t have be missed if it was checked.
his hip was at half strength.that’s a fact.
arod’s therapist inadvertently picked it up.not the yankees.
move on to something else.
there is no doubt the yankees blew wangs winter and spring rehab.
Cashman’s a Dr. now?
randy,
How Wang’s rehab was handled is not the matter of discussion here.
It is why you assigning blame for it on Cashman.
Cashman is not a doctor or physical therapist or anything that signals he is qualified or making decisions regarding injuries.
Didn’t Wang have shoulder problems in the Minors, and Majors?
Maybe it was just a matter of time.
Question! Anybody help me with this? What is the name of the football quarterback who played 3B for the Yanks?
Drew Henson?
Was it Drew Hensen?
Something to ponder:
If the Yankees do not acquire Clifford Lee I think the smart move and to the anguish of many impatient Yankee fans is to at best strengthen the bull pen, bring in a plus plus defensive catcher whom probably at best will hit .240 and maybe sign a middle of the rotation guy for one year. Also bring in some risky gambles like Mark Prior.
Than, concede the Red Sox are now possibly the team to beat with that offense and speed and their pitching will improve as well. They have a healthy Youkilis, Pedroia, Beckett and have added a dangerous 1B and top LF and improved there overall defense dramatically. Now if they get a catcher they are set. We are now the under dogs which is fine. Their speed on bases is better, their power in the middle is equal, their defense is better, and their pitching gets the nod.
This does not mean we cannot compete for the division and win the wild card. It does mean we should not trade away the farm for guys like Grienke who may or may not mentally break down. He is also a righty and we do need another lefty.
So what I would do is give Montero a shot. Sign Martin for one year but if he doesn’t sign give the starting spot to Montero to lose to Cervelli. Bring in a top defensive catcher and let all three compete. When the Yanks play the sox or any team with speed platoon Montero with Posada as DH and play the defensive catcher. Build up the pen with guys like Wood if we can sign him and give the two opening starting jobs to whomever wins it from this list:
Joba
Nova
Banuelos
Brackman
Betances
Pettitte will not return without Lee signing cause he knows the chances of winning without Lee are slim with the Red Sox rebuilt team. Think wild card while allowing an infusion of youth. It may be more exciting for fans and if it doesn’t work out it’s a year of rebuilding and allowing the new kids to get ready.
If team stays healthy;
Pitching:
CC-19 wins
Hughes-17 wins
AJ-14 wins
Joba-10 to 12 wins
Banuelos-10 wins
Bullpen:
Rivera, Robertson, Wood, Logan, Noesi, ?????? (pick from kids in minors)
Catcher:
Montero, Defensive Catcher
DH/Bench Coach:
Posada
Infield:
Tex, Cano, Jeter, A-rod, Nunez, Laird
Outfield:
Gardner, Swisher, Granderson, Laird, Mesa
With two spots to fill in.
No reports that Chamberlain has plans to attend the Athlete’s Performance Institute in Phoenix to finally get into pitching condition.
Billy – one problem with ur plan…..do arod, jeter, posada, and mariano get younger while we toil around waiting?
Chamberlain really needs to not be a fat toad with his physical condition.
lgy’s version of cashman watching wang pitch on a half strength hip in spring training :
” gee, wangie is looking good throwing hard. the doctors must have told him to go ahead and throw at full speed. they do make the final decision after all. it’s out of my control. “
SI_JonHeyman
strong signs there’s a 3rd team still involved with cliff lee. but the conventional wisdom remains #yankees or #rangers
LOL, what?
realscottboras
Maddux, Glavine, & Moyer all pitched into their 40s. Lee should ask for 9 or 10 years. At least.
3 minutes ago via web
So Cashman’s job is to be able to watch pitchers in ST and be able to evaluate their physical condition, despite no coaches noticing anything and Wang not saying a word about anything being wrong?
Cashman has quite the full plate with all that is part of his job description.
randy,
If you have a reasonable explanation as to why Cashman should be considered at fault for Wang’s rehab then I have no problem considering he should bear part of the blame.
If not then you are just reaching for ways to blame him for things that have gone wrong with the Yankees.
I also doubt the truth of the statement that Wang’s hip was so deteriorated that it was at half strength.
Quite the timing from Heyman. Cashman says the Yankees are NOT increasing their offer so Braunecker has to throw the 3rd team (mystery team) out there again. It’s clear he is trying to get the Rangers to increase their offer.
“Pettitte will not return without Lee signing cause he knows the chances of winning without Lee are slim with the Red Sox rebuilt team.”
i’d be surprised if pettitte has had even one thought about his decision to come back that depends on what cliff lee does.
Agreed LGY, somehow trying to pin Wang’s demise on Cashman is awful foolish. It was a sad development, but them’s the breaks.
lgy-
sometimes you are a real dumb ass.
talk to someone else.
mystery teams don’t offer 160 million dollar or Texas sized fun……unless (light bulb), its the Astros.
randy
Just because I completely destroyed your Cashman bashing narrative in regard to Wang doesn’t mean you have to be so sensitive
The fact that there is mention of a third team tells me Cliff Lee is going for the money.
The Yankees already have bid the most, and signaled today through Olney and Heyman that $160ish x 7 is enough.
The signal back from Lee through Heyman is “Are you sure? There may be another team at $170ish x 7.”
Yankees will not be outbid. He’s a Yankee, hopefully sooner as opposed to later.
Lee’s camp is still trying to extract more money. That’s what this hold up is about.
They are leaking new rumors now yesterday and today of a “3rd team” – the mystery team reappears yet again. Just like there was a mystery 7 year offer earlier in the week that turned out to be a sham offer from the Sox.
They are just trying to get the Yankees or Rangers to up their offer. They want to make sure that they’ve gotten every dollar possible.
what part about talk to someone else don’t you understand.
i’m not interested in your silliness about wang.
Carlo December 12th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
I can’t tell, is this freddy garcia conversation serious? Ivan Nova is better than Freddy Garcia right now. The guy is abysmal. And jeff francis? Seriously? We’re talking about one guy who was good, but not great, 5+ years ago, and another guy who had a decent season or two IN THE NL WEST.
———————————————————————————————————————-
all they have to do is win 10 games a piece, regardless of their ERA. It’s wins that get you to the post season. NYYs need about 65-67 wins from the rotation and another 25+ from the bullpen. That’s the general number that you can expect from the bullpens.
Crap. This mystery team nonsense is making me skeptical now that we are hearing anything tonight.
Are the Red Sox the third team? Do they have the onions?
The yankees also know that this is what Lee is trying to do. That’s why Cashman went public with the yanees offer being their last.
CB,
How much longer do you think he can drag this out?
CB
My gut is that he takes $168 x 7 from NY. Yours?
CB,
lets hope…if so he’ll be in pinstripes soon.
blake-
Regarding Greinke. It’s a strange situation. I don’t see how the Yankees get him without montero. At the same time the Royals really have a lot of 1B/DH types in their system who can bash (not like Montero but can hit for power). How the Yanks and Royals match up isn’t great.
That said I do think the Royals would insist on Montero.
I just think Greinke will be cost prohibitive in terms of talent.
@GB7 – I can’t get on board with that theory of middle of the rotation guys…..simply put, they may be enough to get to october but they aren’t the guys who win in october.
@PittsburghYF – ur spot on in ur analysis….3rd team nonsense means Lee wants more money. He’ll be a Yankee when Brauneker stops being such a deplorable pig.
LGY-
I have no idea. I was thinking we’d know tomorrow. Still think there’s a good chance of that.
Pittsburgh-
Somehere between 160-170. 168 sounds reasonable.
blake-
I still think that’s the most likely outcome. I do think this is about money.
There may very well be a third team, or not, no one has a clue what is really going on.
Drew Henson it is! Thank you everyone!
CB,
Thanks
Carlo
Braunecker is not a pig. This isn’t personal, it’s business. If you were Cliff Lee, wouldn’t you want your agent to extract every penny? This is about cold, hard cash.
Thankfully I think this will save Texas from themselves. They are new to the ownership biz, so they should be forgiven for this mistake.
These shenanigans are going to make for a very interesting bargaining session when the CBA runs out at the end of 2011. Owners pissed at the Yankees and Texas (if he chooses NY), and the players pissed at Lee if he chooses Texas…
No. No one really does have a clue. Not even the people who are reporting the leaks.
That’s the point of leaking rumors. It creates uncertainty and you hope to leverage uncertainty into money.
cb-
what are your thoughts on the yankees taking one last chance on joba as a starter ?
my feeling is he could be a 4.50 to 5.00 era kind of guy without much problem. this would solve the one spot at the bottom of the rotation.
and then the upside is he could surprise and maybe be a 4.00 era guy.
if it doesn’t work by the all star break it’s easy to put him back in the bullpen for a role there.
Jets look good. Real solid. Sanchez is smooth as the other side of the pillow.
Somebody needs to get their head out of Heyman’s backside. He can’t tell whether it’s day or night without pulling it out. he can tell you everything heyman’s eaten for the last week, though.
Isn’t it time for Cash to “leak” the Yankees are preparing plan B?
I wonder how much money Heyman gets paid per tweet from Braneucker? Braneucker has drawn this out long enough. He got the Yanks to offer “CC money” and a 7th year. If Lee goes back to the Rangers for 1 less year and leaves $30m on the table his agent will look really stupid after all of this.
Remember “you hear what they want you to hear?”
This is media negotiation at its finest. Let’s see who tweet leaks next…
PYF – its to the point now where Brauneker is just being a pig. Trying to get as much money for himself while holding out for a contract that will make his client a target, rather than just absurdly rich.
CB,
I was originally in the camp that said Lee was going back to the Rangers but in thinking about the comments from all parties involved over the past few days I “analyzed” it a bit more. There has been virtually no commentary from the Yankees side other than Hank’s comments (as an owner) to Lee to “come join the party”, skepticism from former Yankees beat writers who are now national figures with national reach (like Olney), and today’s comments from Cashman that he is not raising the offer.
The Rangers called a press conference to confirm their “menu of offers” in what could be seen as an attempt to publicly inform the Ranger fan base that they are doing everything they can. Problem is, no hard numbers were released. Also, the Rangers have been making noise the past few days that they are certain he is coming back (Ron Washington).
The Lee camp has said nothing.
So what I have come up with is this: The Rangers know their bid is lower and they will either retain Lee due to emotional and logistical ties or, if they lose Lee to the Yankees, they certainly will make them pay the max…hence the confidence comments to make the Yankees sweat. Meanwhile, Lee’s camp also plants the same info about Lee’s preference to play for the Rangers to the beat writers for the same purpose. Cashman responds today by saying this is their final offer. Now Lee’s camp sends another message about a 3rd team to again worry the Yankees into thinking now their may be a team with a higher bid. The Rangers are probably at $6 years, $125-130M and the Yankees are probably at 7 years, $160-165M. If Braunecker and Lee are convinced that this is it, and there are no more “raises” then Lee will take the Yankees 7 year offer. Your thoughts?
So Cliff Lee is kind of like the anti-Carmelo Anthony?
There could be as much as a 20$ mil difference between the offers and he’s trying to get more.
I think if Lee really was married to the idea of staying in Texas then perhaps he would have granted the Rangers request to give them a number that it would take to retain him….or at least they wouldn’t have publically shot down the notion so quickly. Lee never really has given any indication with his actions or quotes that he was giving a discount to anyone. Maybe that’s not how he really feels but we just don’t know until he decides.
randy-
I’m partial to that idea as something to consider. I guess the question is whether you try Joba there or try Nova or Noesi.
I get a sinking feeling that the Yankees know something about Joba or have some impression on him which is making them so adamant about him not being in the rotation.
That said, I’d much rather see that than them overpaying in the trade market.
One of the things that really hurts the yankees this season is Aceves’ health just deteriorating so badly last season.
Ace would have been a great piece to have. You could slide him into the rotation if needed and feel pretty good about it.
An agent’s job is to get as much money for their client as possible. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be doing their job.
coney-
I agree with what you’ve outlined as the general pattern and have felt that way the whole time. I’ve written this a bunch of times.
This most likely is simply about money. And the Yankees have the most money.
I don’t think leaking a 3rd team is going to have much impact on Texas and the “pitch” they’ve made him based on geography unless MLB expands to little rock next season.
The 3rd team is aimed at the Yankees.
coney1
You hit it on the nose. This is his one chance to cash in, and he’s playing it to the max.
The Yankees, however, likely know the Rangers bid to the penny.
If they can save a couple million, they can buy more relief and/or a higher quality bench bat.
PS–about the ARod contract. Someone mentioned a few days ago that ownership at times has a budget separate for certain players. My bet is that since Hank did the ARod negotiation, ARod’s salary is likely considered as part of a separate budget to the Yankees brass…
IMO, Joba had his chance and he failed. There are reasons the Yankees have made such an ironclad determination that he is a bullpen guy now. Cashman has been crystal clear about that.
Maybe, they will change their mind if it’s deemed an emergency situation if Lee and Pettitte are not here.
I know The decision is Lee’s, but the agent, who gets a fixed percentage, will lose quite a chunk of money if Lee goes back to Texas,assuming the Yankee offer is maybe $20 million more…also,If Lee loves the Rangers and they have made him a nice offer, I think he would have already accepted….I think he picks NY but is trying to squeeze out every last penny….just my guess,we will find out…
SI_JonHeyman Jon Heyman
when this is over, darek braunecker will be household name. has 7 yrs/big $ from nyy, tex bidding 1/4 its payroll and #mysteryteam
6 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
He is getting paid by the word now…the 140 charcter cap is killing him.
Re: Wang
Cashman was following advice to proceed conservatively over the winter because it was such an odd injury for a pitcher (usually – Brian Bruney also suffered a similar injury that year, I believe), and he did so.
What was disconcerting, I think, was that once spring training started they didn’t follow through with the conservative approach.
But where I disagree with Randy is his thinking that this was Cashman’s decision alone.
Joba as a starter? We’re back to that? The guy stinks as a reliever.
“when this is over, darek braunecker will be household name.”
This has been a major point to the entire negotiations. Braunecker wanted to use this as a platform to turn himself into a star agent.
And he’s done that well. He’s going to get additional clients, pitchers especially.
If thy sign Lee and Andy retires then I don’t are the harm in putting Joba in a competition with Nova et al for the 5th starter spot in ST.
Braneucker knows that the Rangers only have a certain amount of money to offer. You would have to think that all of these leaks are aimed at the Yanks to up their offer. It would be pointless if it was directed at the Rangers since they are definitely maxed out. If Lee signs with the Rangers in a year the front office is going to say what in the world did we do. Especially when they have to say good bye to Wilson, Hamilton and Cruz to keep him. I hope Lee factors that into his decision.
Braunecker and Lee have stretched both teams to their limits. Regardless of what team he plays for, Lee will need earplugs when he pitches a stinker game (and he will) with fans ranting about a 32-year old pitcher making his kind of money.
CB – bingo….hence why i called the guy a pig earlier. he is just milking beyond belief at this point and using guys like heyman as schills.
Also – Braunecker wanting to turn himself into a household name is part of why there were so many leaks to Heyman.
Braunecker was taking a page right out of the Boras book there. He wanted to leak to the guy who was going to be most sympathetic to what he wanted to get out to the public and about himself. He wanted to leak to the guy who would paint the most flattering picture in exchange for “access” and he found him.
Blake – joba had a shot to compete as a starter last year and he showed up to camp 25 lbs heavier….that said all that had to be said about his commitment to being an elite pitcher in this league. he is content to collect a paycheck and do the minimum.
cb-
i’m thinking that with tampa bay being a much weaker team this year, do the yankees really need to go all out with lee?
why couldn’t they do the oakland thing of using the first third of the season to see where they are, the second to make changes, and the third to turn it on for the playoffs?
maybe there will be a wild card threat out the the central division, but it just seems the yankees may be overreacting to the red sox adding CC and AG. they may still be stronger than anyone else.
Braunecker has played this to perfection…of course he’s had help (no other star pitchers on the market and Crawford, and Werth) but he’s done well and id imagine if he had his choice he’d have his client take the most money.
# coney1 December 12th, 2010 at 4:53 pm
SI_JonHeyman
strong signs there’s a 3rd team still involved with cliff lee. but the conventional wisdom remains #yankees or #rangers
LOL, what?
————————————————–
read somewhere but can’t remember that it might be the Red Sox
“SI_JonHeyman Jon Heyman
when this is over, darek braunecker will be household name. has 7 yrs/big $ from nyy, tex bidding 1/4 its payroll and #mysteryteam
6 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply ”
————
he has played this well. he’ll end up getting the max amount of money for his client.
problem is, how often will there be a true elite pitcher on the free agent market like this?
if Albert Pujols gets $30M a season next offseason, was it the agent? or was it the fact that AP is one of the best hitters of all time?
Carlo,
I didn’t say he would win but I don’t see the harm in putting him in the mix….unless they are afraid to mess with him.anymore.
“i’m thinking that with tampa bay being a much weaker team this year, do the yankees really need to go all out with lee?”
randy-
Overall, I’d lean that way as well. I wouldn’t start overpaying in talent in a trade.
Not every off season is going to work out perfectly. Some seasons you just have to absorb some risk.
That said, I’m not sure how much risk the Yankees fan base is willing to accept.
Remember – back in 2008 it would have been reasonable to go into the season with the same mindset.
In fact, the team did just that. They kept Hughes rather than Santana which turned out to be one of the most important decisions in recent franchise history.
But there was very little good pitching available. None of the trades made sense after Santana.
So they took a risk with the kids and it bombed.
So if you want to go into the season thinking tampa takes a step back and the wild card remains a good shot you have to do so by acknowledging that you are going to be absorbing significant risk of missing the playoffs.
Enough of thisWang nonsense that Cash has something to do with his demise.
Give it a rest already……
I know the 3rd team doesn’t exist and that joeman is a sox fan, but the way the sox would actually be involved would be if their plan was to use gonalez as a one year rental and thus lee and crawford are their long term additions…….but given how smart they claim their medical staff is and how disciplined allocators of capital they claim they are, no way they play in this length at these prices.
Carlo
To me Joba is a non person. I just wish he would go away. I wish we would have traded him when we could have gotten something for him.
Ouch, the Jets look bad so far and NE is destroying Chicago.
Ouch, the Jets look bad so far and NE is destroying Chicago.
Blake – Joba doesnt deserve that shot…..he had it, he threw it away….and frankly, his talent no longer deserves repeat chances to make something of his career. Sorry I feel this way because I do like the guy, but I no longer view him as capable or deserving of this opportunity.
As suggestd earlier, Yanks should seriously consider signing Soriano and give Joba a chance to fight for the 5th SP with Nova.
They should convince Andy to ocme back.
All this of course, if Lee does not come.
is Tampa a much weaker team this year?
they will add a DH who should easily replace what they got from Carlos Pena last season.
David Price is only going to get better and they’ll be adding Hellickson plus another year of experience for Davis. Maybe Jake McGee plays a role too.
Garza is a candidate to improve from a weak 2010.
Losing Crawford hurts. It’s up to Desmond Jennings to make it not hurt too bad.
Losing Soriano is probably the biggest loss on the team. If they don’t sign a replacement, it’s a big issue.
Otherwise, I wouldn’t count Tampa out by a longshot. That starting rotation could still lead them to the playoffs if the Yankees or Sox don’t get the job done.
The Rays are weaker, but maybe not “much” weaker when all is said and done.
I see plenty of people assuming they have zero chance. I don’t agree.
It’s not just Soriano. They lost Benoit who was the best setup man in baseball probably.
“So if you want to go into the season thinking tampa takes a step back and the wild card remains a good shot you have to do so by acknowledging that you are going to be absorbing significant risk of missing the playoffs.”
cb-
the yankees took more of a risk in 2008 by going with hughes and kennedy at the same time.i said that was crazy at the time and had said that the yankees should have added livan hernandez that winter as the 4-5 guy to go with just one of the rookies.
unless there is something wrong with joba physically that makes starting a bad idea that the yankees may know and we don’t., i don’t see why sending him back out there is a big risk. he’s not a rookie. he’s started a lot of games.
i guess then it would get down too if pettitte wants to pitch this year. if he does the yankees would have a rotation good enough to start the year.
even though there is a lot of cash in the game, there will be teams trying to get rid of salary as mid season approaches. if the yankees don’t spend 25 million on lee they’d have a ton of cash to use.
it is not a given that the red sox will jell. they have done nothing with their pitching staff. what if they go backwards. no matter what their offense does , if they are in the last third of the league in pitching they may have to scuffle for a wild card spot themselves. farrel was a very good pitching coach. he worked with lester really closely. lester may miss him.
anyway, i’m just saying the yankees have options to lee, and i think they should seriously look at them because i do not have a good feeling about lee for the next 7 years.
“is Tampa a much weaker team this year?”
bd-
i think in addition to losing CC, their bullpen has lost multiple guys.
i’m not saying that they’ll be a bad team, but i would be surprised if they won more than 90 games.