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What do Rivera, Chamberlain and Prior have in common?

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Notes on Dec 16, 2010 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

ALCS Rangers Yankees Baseball

Mariano Rivera, Joba Chamberlain and Mark Prior are all right-handed pitchers, but more specifically, they’re all relievers. We’ll get into a little later, but let’s start at the end, with the Yankees closer.

After helping haul in some donations at today’s Holiday Food Drive, Rivera spoke briefly about his offseason discussions with the Red Sox.

“It was real,” he said. “Nothing that we sat and talked (face-to-face), but it was real. I also made sure that I thanked them because they took me into consideration. But again, this is business and the Yankees did the right thing, and I’m here.”

Of course, Rivera said he never actually planned to pitch for anyone but the Yankees. “I just had to make sure I had a job,” he said, which is either a sign of extreme paranoia, or a polite way of saying a negotiation goes both ways and leverage is a good thing.

Could this be his final contract?

“I don’t know,” he said. “I (have) always been saying that for, what, last eight, 10 years? But I’m still here.”

ALCS Yankees Rangers Baseball• Even with the Yankees looking for a starter, Brian Cashman said he does not consider Chamberlain an option in the rotation. “No,” Cashman said. “Joba’s in the pen.” So there’s that. Again.

• Prior will also go to camp as a reliever. Cashman said Prior is a “bullpen situation.” The Yankees tried to sign him the past two years, but Prior always landed elsewhere. He’s a longtime friend of assistant GM Billy Eppler.

• Rivera said none of the nagging injuries from last season are still bothering him. “Everything’s good,” he said. “It’s rested. Time heals everything. I’m fine, working out. The rest will have to wait until spring training, to throw and do everything else with the team.”

• Rivera said he might call Andy Pettitte soon, just to check on his plans for next season. If Pettitte says he’s retiring, might Rivera try to change his mind? “Yeah, I might,” Rivera said. “He will have the last word, but I might. Yes. Andy to me is one of the best lefties there is out there, so I would take him any time.”

• Of the Yankees who spoke today, Joe Girardi seems to have spoken to Pettitte most recently. “He’s still weighing his options,” Girardi said. “Obviously, we’re not going to pressure him one way or the other because whatever decision he makes, it has to be inside his heart what he wants to do. But I have talked to him, talked to him probably three or four days ago.”

• Girardi was pretty to-the-point about losing Cliff Lee: “We have to add another guy to our rotation, there’s no doubt about it,” he said.

• Cashman reiterated that he’s glad the summer’s trade for Lee fell through. He’s not sure playing in New York would have convinced him to sign away from Philadelphia. “I think it would have been a rental,” he said. “We didn’t swing the bats in the ALCS whatsoever. We wouldn’t have won whether we had Cliff Lee or not. We didn’t hit a lick.”

• Cashman said he was not surprised or upset to hear Lee say he always wanted to go back to Philadelphia. Cashman does not feel “used” by the free agent process. “The job for him is to pursue every opportunity, try to evaluate it and make the best decision possible,” Cashman said. “He chose a place where he was comfortable. He’s been there before and he had a huge offer. It’s all good. It’s not a big deal. I’m very comfortable with the effort we put forth.”

• Obligatory Cashman quote about his offseason plans: “I’m pursuing any aspect to improve our club, whether it’s upon what we already have or to fix what we don’t have. How long that takes and how successful we’ll be at it remains to be seen.”

Associated Press photos

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188 Responses to “What do Rivera, Chamberlain and Prior have in common?”

  1. Bret The Hitman December 16th, 2010 at 7:27 pm

    re: Pete Abraham

    Was Pete a Red Sox fan all along?

    Maybe a silly question but i’m confused.

  2. Captain Clutch December 16th, 2010 at 7:30 pm

    2010 the off season of patience…

  3. DaSaint007 December 16th, 2010 at 7:33 pm

    Girardi was pretty to-the-point about losing Cliff Lee: “We have to add another guy to our rotation, there’s no doubt about it,” he said.

    Well there you have it. That ‘another guy’ statement surely doesn’t mean another kid from the system, or Joba, whom Cashman firmly restated is a bullpen arm.

    So expect a trade for a veteran: someone probably over 30, who eats at least 200 innings a year, and has a short term (1 or 2 year) contract remaining: Justin Verlander, Mark Buehrle, and Freddie Garcia come to mind.

  4. UnKnown December 16th, 2010 at 7:33 pm

    Hey he is a big Patriot bobo as well. Pete Abe is a Chowder Head through and through.

  5. Bret The Hitman December 16th, 2010 at 7:34 pm

    Are you sure?

  6. Gary December 16th, 2010 at 7:38 pm

    PittsburghYankeeFan December 16th, 2010 at 6:52 pm
    Maybe Cashman is saying to the agents: “We’ll pay market value, nothing more, and perhaps a premium if we really want you.”

    ______________________________________________________________________

    Doubt that, I think it’s the other way around. Brian, there isn’t much out there and you need our guy since you didn’t get your guys, but your going to have to pay our price. Cash doesn’t have much of a barganing positon right now the way it worked out, he can pass they just go elsewhere.

    Hard for me to see Joba having anything in common with Mario. One loo0ks like a baseball player and works hard at his craft, one doesn’t.

  7. Carlo December 16th, 2010 at 7:38 pm

    Yes Bret – and over the last year it got to the point where his personal vedettas with girardi, arod, and several others made his comments unreadable.

    And saint – girardi may have been referring to pettitte as the other guy

  8. Betsy December 16th, 2010 at 7:38 pm

    I wouldn’t have put Joba in the rotation this year simply because there’s way too many ?, but it’s ridiculous that the Yankees gave up on Joba after 1 season starting.

    Who knows what would have happened with Lee? Either way, I’m glad we held onto Montero.

  9. YankFanCA December 16th, 2010 at 7:39 pm

    Yeah, Pete Abe loves the Patriots. I believe he once swallowed an offensive lineman whole.

  10. Gary December 16th, 2010 at 7:40 pm

    UnKnown December 16th, 2010 at 7:33 pm
    Hey he is a big Patriot bobo as well. Pete Abe is a Chowder Head through and through.

    _______________________________________________________________________

    If Pete were here he surely would be talking them Pats up. It doesn’t much better than Tom Brady unless it’s Bruce Springsteen. I remember the junior varisty comment before the Giants beat their as#’es if the SB. Man he had to eat them words. :-)

  11. Latroy Farnsworth December 16th, 2010 at 7:40 pm

    Cashman: “I’m pursuing any aspect to improve our club, whether it’s upon what we already have or to fix what we don’t have. How long that takes and how successful we’ll be at it remains to be seen.”

    Well Brian I guess “any aspect” would include looking at medical records for Freddy Garcia (what a joke) while letting Jenks sign with the Red Sox and Wood go to the Cubs for only 1.5 million. And what you don’t have is a setup man for Rivera. But don’t worry folks he’s not the least bit interested in bringing in Soriano to setup for Rivera because he doesn’t like the price. I don’t blame him, I mean the Yanks only draw 4 million fans a year so a penny saved is a penny earned. Looks like it’ll be the 2nd brutal offseason in a row for Cashman and in my opinion its time this guy gets his feet held to the fire. He has hard on to play “money ball” now that we missed out on Lee. Well ya know what Cashman if you wanna play that game take it to a small market team

  12. YankFanCA December 16th, 2010 at 7:41 pm

    Betsy — I disagree with you re: Joba. He’s not economical enough to be a good starter. I’m not sure he’ll ever be a good enough reliever either.

  13. tyanksfan36 December 16th, 2010 at 7:41 pm

    I read an article on mlb, it said to maybe use Montero to get Garza. Why would the Rays trade one of their better pitchers to us in their division and why would we trade a projected big bat to a division rival? I would hate for Montero to be a Ray.

  14. Doreen December 16th, 2010 at 7:42 pm

    I got my parents at the airport this morning and haven’t been here all day. My husband just got home from work and told me the Red Sox signed Jenks.

    What happened?

    :)

  15. YankFanCA December 16th, 2010 at 7:42 pm

    Well put, Latroy

  16. Nick in SF December 16th, 2010 at 7:45 pm

    “Waiting for Austin Kutcher to come on Sportscenter tonight and say that all Yankee Fans Have Been Punked.”

    And I’m waitng for Ashton Kearns to watch 2 called strikes and then helplessly flail at a pitch in the dirt.

  17. RadioKev December 16th, 2010 at 7:45 pm

    DaSaint007 December 16th, 2010 at 7:33 pm
    Girardi was pretty to-the-point about losing Cliff Lee: “We have to add another guy to our rotation, there’s no doubt about it,” he said.

    Well there you have it. That ‘another guy’ statement surely doesn’t mean another kid from the system, or Joba, whom Cashman firmly restated is a bullpen arm.

    So expect a trade for a veteran: someone probably over 30, who eats at least 200 innings a year, and has a short term (1 or 2 year) contract remaining: Justin Verlander, Mark Buehrle, and Freddie Garcia come to mind.

    —————–

    How is Verlander in that conversation? No less mentioned along Buehrle and Garcia? The Tigers are a team trying to compete.

  18. DaSaint007 December 16th, 2010 at 7:46 pm

    Carmona, Danks Randy Wolf and Edwin Jackson also pitched over 200 innings last year.
    Ian Kennedy pitched 194, slightly more than Ted Lilly’s or Derek Lowe’s 193. 2 or our own Phil Hughes’ 176.1. Guess Kennedy had no ‘rules’.

  19. Gary December 16th, 2010 at 7:47 pm

    Doreen

    It’s just more of the same. The Sox had a plan knowing that the Yanks were over a barrel with Lee. They have just been much better at execution than we are right now. Jenks had 27 saves last year, coming off injuries but still looks like a good move for them.

  20. RadioKev December 16th, 2010 at 7:47 pm

    tyanksfan36 December 16th, 2010 at 7:41 pm
    I read an article on mlb, it said to maybe use Montero to get Garza. Why would the Rays trade one of their better pitchers to us in their division and why would we trade a projected big bat to a division rival? I would hate for Montero to be a Ray.

    ————

    That would be the type of deal I’m talking about… a deal for a “pretty good” pitcher but not an elite pitcher. Getting Garza would be nothing to celebrate, but I guess I wouldn’t call it the worst baseball move ever made.

  21. Carlo December 16th, 2010 at 7:48 pm

    I think the handwriting is on the wall folks. Montero is gone baby, gone.

  22. DaSaint007 December 16th, 2010 at 7:48 pm

    How is Verlander in that conversation? No less mentioned along Buehrle and Garcia? The Tigers are a team trying to compete.
    —————————————————————-

    Were the Tigers not trying to compete when they traded Curtis Granderson?

  23. Gary December 16th, 2010 at 7:49 pm

    Some noted back benchers in the pitching names mentioned here. Best we can get?

  24. Betsy December 16th, 2010 at 7:50 pm

    Yankfan, maybe not, but they should have given him another chance…….Although he’s stubborn and I’m not sure how driven he is, still – it’s not like he had a terrible 2009, not enough for him to be consigned to the pen for eternity (well, for as long as he wears pinstripes anyway)

  25. Doreen December 16th, 2010 at 7:51 pm

    Gary -

    Why do the Red Sox need Jenks? Or were they just playing “keep away?”

    Were the Yankees in on him at all?

    (I have no idea whether they should have been or not, just asking.)

  26. Joe from Long Island December 16th, 2010 at 7:53 pm

    Hi, Doreen –

    Yeah, the Red Sox signed Bobby Jenks to a two-year contract. They have a lot to do to reconstruc their bullpen, and with this they now apparently have the highest payroll in MLB.

    Yanks are negotiating with Pedro Feliciano, as their prospective second lefty. He has said he wants to stay in NY, presumably this time with a major league team.

    And, if you missed it, Russell Martin and the Yanks is now official. You can refer to Chad’s prior post about it. I don’t think it makes Jesus Montero expendable, I think it allows him whatever time he needs to grow into the job. Kind of like Joe Girardi and a young Jorge Posada.

    Jack Curry, on the YES Hot Stove show this evening, said that pitchers like King Felix, and Justin Verlander are not going to be traded. Carlos Zambrano? Only is the money works out. If the Yanks take on most of his salary, the players going to Chi may not be top tier.

    Oh, and, yes, you did miss out on the usual angst.

  27. RadioKev December 16th, 2010 at 7:55 pm

    DaSaint007 December 16th, 2010 at 7:48 pm
    How is Verlander in that conversation? No less mentioned along Buehrle and Garcia? The Tigers are a team trying to compete.
    —————————————————————-

    Were the Tigers not trying to compete when they traded Curtis Granderson?

    ———–

    http://detroit.tigers.mlb.com/.....p?c_id=det

    Take a look. Now tell me, which of those pitchers is a starter that holds a candle to Verlander? He’s their ace and he’s not going anywhere. Granderson was expendable to the Tigers (huge contract, coming off a bit of a down year) for a top CF prospect to replace him and an arm for the bullpen.

    A very different situation than trading your top starter. Teams that trade their top starters don’t expect to compete.

  28. Gary December 16th, 2010 at 7:55 pm

    Betsy, if Joba showed up at spring training 25 lbs lighter with a real baseball hat and stories about his offseasoin work program as opposed to him offseason bar hopping I’d maybe start believing in him a bit again. :-)

  29. tyanksfan36 December 16th, 2010 at 7:55 pm

    RadioKev

    Maybe I’m biased but like I said, it would pain me if Montero was a Ray. He would be good for them as a DH, or first base option but he is projected to be great. Why would we trade Montero(who is who the writer suggested be included in the trade) and have to face him 18 games a season. And Garza is one of their better pitchers, I doubt they would trade him to us, maybe they’d trade shields but he gives up so many homers it would not be worth it.

  30. Doreen December 16th, 2010 at 7:58 pm

    Joe from Long Island-

    Thank you for that! That was a comprehensive summary of the day, to say the least!!!

    My husband did say he heard the Red Sox now have the highest payroll. Do they know that????? :lol:

    (I’m sure not sorry I missed the angst. ;) )

  31. Gary December 16th, 2010 at 7:58 pm

    If the Rays trade Garza it’s probably to LA, Texas, Seattle or Oakland. Why trade a horse like that to a team in your division when you play them so often every year.

  32. RadioKev December 16th, 2010 at 7:59 pm

    RadioKev

    Maybe I’m biased but like I said, it would pain me if Montero was a Ray. He would be good for them as a DH, or first base option but he is projected to be great. Why would we trade Montero(who is who the writer suggested be included in the trade) and have to face him 18 games a season. And Garza is one of their better pitchers, I doubt they would trade him to us, maybe they’d trade shields but he gives up so many homers it would not be worth it.

    ———

    I was referencing an earlier post I made that we should not trade for anything less than elite. I do not think we should trade for Garza.

  33. Pat M. December 16th, 2010 at 7:59 pm

    Gary…..You summed up The Joba Enigma to a tee……Although most of the baseball evaluators that I speak with here just think he’s a reliever with closer talent…..

  34. blake December 16th, 2010 at 7:59 pm

    Carlo,

    Im not sure of that but if it happens all we can hope is that they make the right decision and the right player comes back in return.

  35. Gary December 16th, 2010 at 8:00 pm

    Nothing wrong with the highest payroll, the Yanks had it and they won the WS 2 years ago. On the other hand KC has a low payroll and never competes for anything. I just don’t follow this money conversation, clubs do know what they are doing.

  36. Hopdevil December 16th, 2010 at 8:02 pm

    The only person on their staff worth Montero at this point would be David Price. Chances? In the negatives.

  37. Doreen December 16th, 2010 at 8:03 pm

    It would have been great if Joba had worked out as a starter. He didn’t. I’m sure there are reasons none of us are aware of why they are so adamant that he’s in the pen. Maybe it’s as simple as not wanting to go round and round with it again. Maybe it’s something else.

    I just want Joba to do well wherever he ends up. At this point, I think the Yankees are clearly saying the discussion is over.

    There is a lot to be said for the argument that if Joba really wanted to start, there are probably things he could do to improve his chances.

  38. Carlo December 16th, 2010 at 8:03 pm

    Blake – agree man. When it happens, everyone is just going to say “wow, that was obvious”. I’m just saying it now.

    And now. Montero foor Garza wouldn’t do it for me and fortunately, it won’t happen. Montero is a trade for a top shelf guy, Garza isn’t in that category.

  39. J. Alfred Prufrock December 16th, 2010 at 8:03 pm

    How is Verlander in that conversation? No less mentioned along Buehrle and Garcia? The Tigers are a team trying to compete.

    ///Getting Verlander would mean giving up a s***load,lol.that guy though is a marvel & has perfect mechanics.it’s no wonder he can throw 97 mph in the eighth inning.

  40. DaSaint007 December 16th, 2010 at 8:04 pm

    If I were adding to the rotation, I would rather add Edwin Jackson than Freddy Garcia.

  41. J. Alfred Prufrock December 16th, 2010 at 8:05 pm

    And now. Montero foor Garza wouldn’t do it for me and fortunately, it won’t happen. Montero is a trade for a top shelf guy, Garza isn’t in that category.

    ///yea,i like Garza,but that’s a nightmare exchange and one that we don’t need to worry about happening.Garza likes to give up HRs,too.

  42. J. Alfred Prufrock December 16th, 2010 at 8:06 pm

    God,really sick of Cashman’s intractable stance on Chamberlain.trade him already.I can hold out hope that the new guy,rothschild, may have a covert plan.

  43. Betsy December 16th, 2010 at 8:07 pm

    Gary, I don’t necessarily believe in Joba – I’m not even a big fan of his – but it bothers me that the Yankees gave up on him after 1 full year of starting. What does that say about how they’d handle other young pitchers?

  44. J. Alfred Prufrock December 16th, 2010 at 8:11 pm

    Betsy December 16th, 2010 at 7:50 pm
    Yankfan, maybe not, but they should have given him another chance…….Although he’s stubborn and I’m not sure how driven he is, still – it’s not like he had a terrible 2009, not enough for him to be consigned to the pen for eternity (well, for as long as he wears pinstripes anyway)

    ///something does not add up there.a guy with a 2008 like he had flat out dismissed to ever start again (for the yankees).it’s just weird.what’s weird is there’s no consistent ‘story’ about why.just speculation: the shoulder tendinitis,worry about pitching stamina,etc.there’s a funny smell in all this,and you can’t locate the source of it.weird.& frustrating.

  45. Carlo December 16th, 2010 at 8:13 pm

    Correct me if I am wrong, but aren’t there people on this very site clamoring that one of the “killer b’” (absurd moniker) can help the pen later this year?

    We gonna start this again? Throwing guys in the pen who are starters and then getting them half pregnant so we can go through that “process”?

  46. 108 stitches December 16th, 2010 at 8:14 pm

    The Joba Chamberlain that’s seen is as good as he’ll ever get. Why ?

    - He thought he was bulletproof after quickly rising through 3 levels in 2007.

    - Keeping in top physical condition has never been a priority and still isn’t.

    - Can’t grasp repeating his mechanics leading up to high pitch counts and many early exits.

    - Sits in the same bullpen as the master of repeated mechanics (Mariano) but prefers to sit on a bullpen chair spitting out David sunflower seeds rather than listen to advice.

    - Doesn’t realize that the Jobamania ship has sailed.

  47. J. Alfred Prufrock December 16th, 2010 at 8:15 pm

    Betsy December 16th, 2010 at 8:07 pm
    Gary, I don’t necessarily believe in Joba – I’m not even a big fan of his – but it bothers me that the Yankees gave up on him after 1 full year of starting. What does that say about how they’d handle other young pitchers?

    ///they may have messed him up mechanically,so they’d rather just not invite speculation and prefer to make th blanket statement.they know a lot of stupid media and fans have this wild idea he’s destined for BP greatness,so they get away with it.the fans that wonder what could have been dwindle by the day,I would say.

  48. Doreen December 16th, 2010 at 8:15 pm

    What the Yankees did with Joba only talks to how they dealt with Joba. It is not about any other pitcher in their system.

  49. J. Alfred Prufrock December 16th, 2010 at 8:16 pm

    108 stitches December 16th, 2010 at 8:14 pm
    The Joba Chamberlain that’s seen is as good as he’ll ever get. Why ?

    - He thought he was bulletproof after quickly rising through 3 levels in 2007.

    - Keeping in top physical condition has never been a priority and still isn’t.

    - Can’t grasp repeating his mechanics leading up to high pitch counts and many early exits.

    - Sits in the same bullpen as the master of repeated mechanics (Mariano) but prefers to sit on a bullpen chair spitting out David sunflower seeds rather than listen to advice.

    - Doesn’t realize that the Jobamania ship has sailed.

    ///I don’t think any of this brings much light to the mystery :(

  50. wernerman December 16th, 2010 at 8:16 pm

    You don’t get an elite pitcher with an unproven minor league player. Until Montero produces on the major league level, he is an unproven minor league player.

  51. Betsy December 16th, 2010 at 8:17 pm

    Doreen, maybe or maybe not………….I don’t love how the Yankees have developed young pitching, so to me this is just one more mark against them. Now, I don’t blame them for Joba’s performance or his attitude – just the fact that they gave up on him.

  52. Hopdevil December 16th, 2010 at 8:18 pm

    Carlo, I personally don’t have a position yet on whether or not the B’s should ever see time in the bullpen (if pressed I’d probably be against it at least this year)…but it’s worth noting that many top-of-rotation starters have spent time learning the ropes in the pen including guys like CC Sabathia and Johan Santana. I also believe Cliff Lee spent some time there – but not 100% sure on him.

  53. Betsy December 16th, 2010 at 8:18 pm

    J. Alfred, I don’t know what happened, but he’s only 25………

  54. G-C December 16th, 2010 at 8:19 pm

    Wernerman, how do teams trade prospects for elite pitchers then?

  55. RadioKev December 16th, 2010 at 8:19 pm

    wernerman December 16th, 2010 at 8:16 pm
    You don’t get an elite pitcher with an unproven minor league player. Until Montero produces on the major league level, he is an unproven minor league player.
    —————-

    Johan Santana, Cliff Lee, Josh Beckett, and so many more prove that statement false. Just off the top of my head.

  56. J. Alfred Prufrock December 16th, 2010 at 8:21 pm

    I just want Joba to do well wherever he ends up. At this point, I think the Yankees are clearly saying the discussion is over.

    ///but the question still hangs in the air,WHY is the discussion irrevocably OVER?I don’t think the curiosity is unjustified,considering his 2008,the stuff he has.his age,etc.evidently,the yankees have not answered that question to the satisfaction of the fan who understands what possibly has been dismissed what seems like WAAAY prematurely.

  57. mick December 16th, 2010 at 8:22 pm

    Joba does as Joba do, Joba Joba do…

    If anybody bites, Joba is gone in the right deal.

  58. blake December 16th, 2010 at 8:23 pm

    “You don’t get an elite pitcher with an unproven minor league player. Until Montero produces on the major league level, he is an unproven minor league player.”

    Its happened many many times….teams that trade elite pitchers do so because they can’t afford them and they usually want cheap players with no service time in return..

  59. pat December 16th, 2010 at 8:26 pm

    Did the Yankees give up on Joba or did Joba give up on himself?

    They’ve shown the willingness to give “2nd chances” to other players who have skills and are willing to put the work in so odd they would give on a possible cost controlled starting pitcher.

  60. J. Alfred Prufrock December 16th, 2010 at 8:27 pm

    Doreen December 16th, 2010 at 8:15 pm
    What the Yankees did with Joba only talks to how they dealt with Joba. It is not about any other pitcher in their system.

    ///hmmm..I think it’d be hard to remove their handling of him from their track record of developing pitching.the 3-4 inning starts were off the wall enough for Sabathia to go on record to say nobody could be expected to pitch well under those circumstances(admittedly a paraphras,but that was the gist of it).what I would say is,let’s hope they learn from it.

  61. TD213 December 16th, 2010 at 8:28 pm

    To be fair to Joba, the Yanks never pushed him. Never made a trip to the minors upon coming to the majors, put his needs above the team (stretching him out at the ML level in 08, etc.), didn’t take away his 8th inning job last year for months even when he sucked, guaranteed him a spot on the ML roster every year, etc.

    They showed tough love to everyone else – Robertson, Hughes, Kennedy, Melky, Melancon, etc. yet they never sent Joba to the minors when he wasn’t performing to send him a message. Remember, the prorated salary at the ML level is 10x that of the minor leagues. Sending him to the minors would have cost him a ton of cash and probably motivated him to improve. But the Yanks always guaranteed him an ML check, so what motivation did he have?

    Joba might be one of those guys that needed a little kick in the pants to get him jump started early in his career… wouldn’t be the first one, yet the Yanks never gave him that kick. They kept him on the ML roster and paid him full salary for underpeformance and poor conditioning.

  62. Carlo December 16th, 2010 at 8:29 pm

    Hdevil – not disputing that many pitchers have taken that path through the pen to the rotation. The Yankees haven’t shown an understanding of how to do it and I don’t want to see this bllsht where they didn’t add to the pen now, pulled a B up early to help the pen, he got limited innings, then the yankee “rules” were in effect through 2014.

  63. West Coast Yankee Fan December 16th, 2010 at 8:30 pm

    Doesn’t anyone think that the collective Yankee brain trust watched, coached and evaluated Joba before making the determination that they did? They didn’t want him to not be an effective starter. But that is their job to make these calls and not throw good money and time after bad. They already made a mistake not trading him when his value was much higher.

  64. J. Alfred Prufrock December 16th, 2010 at 8:31 pm

    If anybody bites, Joba is gone in the right deal.

    ///well that would be interesting and might shed some light.for instance,if he goes on to be a starter,and a successful one,or if he starts and falters or gets injured,or if he’s a BP guy.my guess is,anyone trading for joba will try to maximize and make him a starter again.we’ll certainly find out if he’s traded.

  65. blake December 16th, 2010 at 8:31 pm

    If the Yankees truly are done with Joba the starter then I think its time to give him a change of scenery…..its not that I don’t like him, I do but it may be time for the Yankees to move on and give him a chance at a fresh start elsewhere, especially if he can be moved in a package for something they need.

  66. 4time December 16th, 2010 at 8:33 pm

    Garza is a very good pitcher, not an ace, but very good. Swing and miss stuff, moxie, AL East tested. He’d be a perfect guy to line behind CC.

    Too bad TB will never trade him to us. But he’d be the kind of Plan B that would be great.

  67. 4time December 16th, 2010 at 8:34 pm

    Wasn’t Joba the sticking point in the Haren trade?

    Sigh…

  68. MTU December 16th, 2010 at 8:35 pm

    Blake-

    I’ve felt that way for quite some time.

  69. Betsy December 16th, 2010 at 8:36 pm

    TD, that’s true…….although at some point, Joba has to motivate himself as the Yankees shoudln’t have to keep practicing psychology on him. He either wants to succeed or he doesn’t.

  70. tyanksfan36 December 16th, 2010 at 8:37 pm

    If you guys get tired thinking about who the Yankees should trade for or acquire you should check out some pictures of Jorge Posada’s house. Its apparently for sale which bums me out because that lessens the chance I can get his autograph though it doesnt look like anyone lives there anyways.

    http://www.realtor.com/realest.....0544-51784

    Picture 19 is worth seeing. You can see in the display case behind the counter he has the miniature world series trophies. They have the same little trophy things at Steinbrenner field in the lobby.

  71. Carlo December 16th, 2010 at 8:38 pm

    Betsy – its not just the motivation, he simply doesn’t have the ability anymore. The arm/shoulder is not what it was.

  72. blake December 16th, 2010 at 8:38 pm

    MTU,

    I felt the same way last winter and said so many times on here….his value was higher last year as he was still starting at the time and the perception was that his struggles could be attributed to the “Joba Rules”

  73. blake December 16th, 2010 at 8:39 pm

    “Wasn’t Joba the sticking point in the Haren trade?”

    I think that was the rumor but I don’t know if it was ever confirmed….if it was true then yes….sigh.

  74. West Coast Yankee Fan December 16th, 2010 at 8:39 pm

    Sometimes players just need a change of scenery and less pressure. The Yankees don’t extend long grace periods to players and wait for them to perform at a high level. Maybe Joba would thrive in Oakland or Kansas City.

  75. joe b December 16th, 2010 at 8:40 pm

    WHAT DO THEY HAVE IN COMMON ??? None of them will be playing in the world series in 2011 !!!!!!!!!!!

  76. Benny Blanco December 16th, 2010 at 8:40 pm

    Blake,

    I posted this question earlier today. I’m hoping that someone here can explain this intelligently.

    Today on wfan, Ike davis talked about facing roy halladay and he said whats so tough about facing him is that every pitch looks the same coming out of his hand. Is that a product of arm slot? Mechanics??

  77. TallicaFan December 16th, 2010 at 8:40 pm

    If Cashman ultimately thought Joba was destined to stay in the bullpen then why not include him for Haren when the opportunity came up?

    All reports are that the sticking point was Cashman didn’t want to give up Joba in the deal. Cashman could have made a big move in solidifying the rotation then while only giving up a run of the mill middle reliever.

  78. J. Alfred Prufrock December 16th, 2010 at 8:41 pm

    the joba discussion fittingly has erupted out of a blog thread entitled “talent doesn’t go away.’ hmmm….that was my point :(

  79. yanks 27 December 16th, 2010 at 8:42 pm

    But with Joba, it’s not the role, it’s the cause. It was the same thing during the starter vs. reliever debate.

    Ever since the shoulder injury, he’s been inconsistent as a starter and inconsistent as a reliever. He just can’t repeat his mechanics. Watch him pitch – one FB is a perfectly located 96 MPH on the corner, the next is 91 with no movement down the middle, the next is 89 in the dirt, etc. No rhyme or reason to his pitching.

    I’d give Rothchild one last chance to try and fix his mechanics, if not, then cut bait. At this point, his value is low anyway, so might as well go into the season with him.

  80. BoJo December 16th, 2010 at 8:43 pm

    wernerman December 16th, 2010 at 8:16 pm

    You don’t get an elite pitcher with an unproven minor league player. Until Montero produces on the major league level, he is an unproven minor league player.
    ++++++++++++
    Tell that to Toronto and Milwaukee (Marcum)

  81. Giuseppe Franco December 16th, 2010 at 8:43 pm

    There is no evidence that illustrates Joba was the “sticking point” in any potential trade for Haren.

    That’s total BS.

  82. Betsy December 16th, 2010 at 8:43 pm

    Carlo, even if that were so, it doesn’t mean he can’t be a good starter…….. It’s just foolish to give up before making all attempts – that’s what I’m saying.

  83. G. Love December 16th, 2010 at 8:43 pm

    If you want Montero as a Yankee you have to hope he somehow makes it to spring training and hits a few monster shots out. The minute he does, he’ll be off the market. The NY Press will anoint him and that will be that.

    What will get him traded is if Cashman decided not to take the risk that Montero won’t hit in the majors and kill his trade value.

    Cashman’s sitting there with an asset that could go down if Montero struggles with the bat.

    I hope he keeps him. No teams develop the kind of power we’re talking about here with any kind of regularity.

  84. blake December 16th, 2010 at 8:44 pm

    Benny,

    Yes, its a product of him having a machine like ability to repeat his delivery and throw each pitch out of the exact same arm slot. His fastball, cutter, 2-seamer, change, etc all are thrown with similar arm speed, arm angle, and release point….that’s what gives him such great deception, that and the fact that he can make the ball move both ways and throw it wherever he wants to.

  85. MTU December 16th, 2010 at 8:44 pm

    Blake-

    If we were to move Montero it is certain it would be for someone considered elite.

    In your mind who are some of the elite left-handed pitchers who might be available in a trade ?

    Who really needs a catcher/1st base type ?

    Those would be some of the questions to answer.

    Undoubtedly, all other things equal, we would prefer a lefty.

    Lester is a not a possibility. Same with Price.

    Danks isn’t elite.

    Would you say Kershaw was elite ?

    Others ?

  86. SAS December 16th, 2010 at 8:46 pm

    Above someone said that Joba might need a swift kick. That may be an understatement. He started in NY on such a ‘high’, it is hard to replicate that without serious changes. If they Yankees don’t want to do, give him a chance elsewhere.

    ————————————————–

    Doreen,

    We leave in the AM. I have to go back to packing shortly. I don’t think think we missed much during the day. I’ll say hello from the road.

  87. Yank 97 December 16th, 2010 at 8:46 pm

    I don’t think the Yanks were desperate for Haren because they had their eyes on Lee this winter. If they could have stolen Haren, then they were probably interested, but not interested enough to give up too much (but ironically, if the reported packages were accurate, it would have been a steal even with Joba. Look at what he was traded for. The assistant GM was desperate and the Angels got him for nothing).

    And at the time, Vazquez and Burnett were pitching well. We were the best team in the league and cruising…. then it all came apart last year and we ended up losing out on Lee as well.

    Look at what Haren did in the 2nd half with LAA – all he needed was a change of scenery. He was right back to being a top pitcher.

  88. SAS December 16th, 2010 at 8:47 pm

    By the way, now I want Andy to make up his mind…got to pack now.

  89. MDD2 December 16th, 2010 at 8:48 pm

    You know you’re in a bit of trouble when Joba is one of the board’s main topics.

    No one else sees that Jeter’s negotiation set the offseason tone? Many fans here were okay with the tough talk and didn’t mind one of the game’s good guys getting slimed by his only team’s front office.

    But other players watched what happened. They saw how the Yankees treated their own future Hall of Famer. I’m not talking about the money — I’m talking about the public smearing, both on and off the record.

    Our most coveted free agents are going elsewhere for less; players and their families appear to be leery of our team.

    In the past month, how many times have I heard Cashman say, “there’s nothing I would do differently”…. Yankee offers have been generous and fair. It’s the way the team is putting everything out there that’s different from years past.

    Cashman’s best deals have been the stealth ones. Now it’s everyone else who’s ready to pounce. Strange times.

    Okay, back to Joba….

  90. blake December 16th, 2010 at 8:48 pm

    MTU,

    For fun I asked the question this morning of which pitchers would you trade Montero for…..Kershaw was on it and the Dodgers need catching but Kershaw is still so young and cheap that I doubt they would be very motivated to move him.

  91. West Coast Yankee Fan December 16th, 2010 at 8:49 pm

    When a pitcher repeats his motion over and over every time like Halladay does, the batter has a hard time knowing what pitch is coming. Whether he is going to throw a fastball, curve, slider or change up — the mechanics are identical, he gives nothing away. This is especially true when a pitcher throws his change up and fastball with the same arm motion and arm speed, but there is a 10-12 MPH difference.

  92. Benny Blanco December 16th, 2010 at 8:50 pm

    Thanks Blake!

    Last question, What would it take for phil hughes to master his delivery and have that same type of effectiveness for each of his pitches?

  93. Betsy December 16th, 2010 at 8:51 pm

    GLove, Montero won’t be traded – the only way I could see him going is for a young stud, but that’s not happening. I’m disappointed thus far in Cash’s off-season, but I don’t think he’s stupid. The Yankees have an older team with no position prospects to speak of in the farm system short of Montero, possibly Romine (whose stock has dropped) and Sanchez, who is years away. Trading Montero would be foolish…….I’m not even sure I’d trade him for a stud pitcher.

  94. blake December 16th, 2010 at 8:52 pm

    MLB Network showed a side by side a few weeks ago of Felix Herandez and Halladay from the batter’s POV….Halladay hides the ball pretty well but Felix does it unbelievably well…..you don’t see it until the last second with him, must be quite a task to hit either of those guys.

  95. BoJo December 16th, 2010 at 8:52 pm

    If I were to trade Montero, it would be for Oakland’s Brett Anderson…or their other LH SPs…

    Oakland can use the power, and those are some good young arms they have.

  96. MTU December 16th, 2010 at 8:52 pm

    Blake-

    JJ would be considered an elite righty as would Felix.

    Do you consider Greinke elite ?

  97. 108 stitches December 16th, 2010 at 8:53 pm

    In all fairness to the team, Joba has been given every chance to succeed since his arrival. Obviously being a newbie in late 2007, the league never had a chance to figure him out. Being just 22 at the time, the team elected to limit his innings in 2008 and bring them up to 200 innings spread out over 2 years similar to what was done with Phil Hughes. His constant shaking off catcher’s signs under 2 managers and 2 pitching coaches didn’t help his cause. Off field issues didn’t help either. He was handed the 8th inning role this year and blew it. He should be reaching the money Phil Hughes will be getting but won’t.
    If he isn’t part of a deal, his final chance will be in the hands of Larry Rothschild.

  98. J. Alfred Prufrock December 16th, 2010 at 8:53 pm

    I’d give Rothchild one last chance to try and fix his mechanics, if not, then cut bait. At this point, his value is low anyway, so might as well go into the season with him.
    ///the last chance is more of a second chance.the yanks fooled around with his glove-side leg,put a pause in his delivery,etc.they shuttled him from the BP to the rotation,came up with a crazy schedule for his starts,etc.they seemed like they were fairly clueless,had the feel of a guinea pig type experiment.joba may be immature,but the yanks proved to me with the 3-4 inning starts that they were just taking shots in the dark,and with each shot we seemed to move further & further away from that guy who was going 6 IP and outdueling Beckett,et al in 2008.

  99. Betsy December 16th, 2010 at 8:53 pm

    If Joba was the key, then the non-trade of Haren was beyond stupid -esp. since the Yankees view him merely as a reliever. If Cash put all his eggs in the Lee basket, then he’s really dumb for assuming he’d sign here. As I’ve seen mentioned elsewhere, they could have traded for Haren and then perhaps traded him……………or they could have kept Haren.

  100. J. Alfred Prufrock December 16th, 2010 at 8:55 pm

    Montero won’t be traded

    ///boy Betsy I sure wish I had your confidence.I pray you are right,but that trade that didn’t happen for lee makes me a skeptic :(

  101. MTU December 16th, 2010 at 8:55 pm

    I don’t think Anderson is considered “elite”.

    At least at this point.

    I have mentioned him before as a trade target.

  102. J. Alfred Prufrock December 16th, 2010 at 8:57 pm

    his final chance will be in the hands of Larry Rothschild.

    ///like I said,I’m holding out hope they will quietly revisit joba the starter.

  103. blake December 16th, 2010 at 8:59 pm

    Hughes actually repeats his delivery pretty well. He just needs to refine his secondary pitches and work on just what Davis was talking about, keeping everything the same on every pitch. You never know whats coming with Halladay and thats part of what makes him great….Hughes just needs to keep building on what he’s already done and continue to add to his arsenal, once he can consistently put other pitches in the hitter’s mind I think he’ll take off and all those foul balls will turn to swings and misses or weak outs…he has a great delivery and great ability to repeat it and throw fastballs where he wants to….the rest will come with time and experience.

  104. BoJo December 16th, 2010 at 8:59 pm

    MTU–

    I think Anderson is as good as one can get for Montero. And he is the best of the bunch. He or Gonzalez would do well in YS IMO.

  105. mick December 16th, 2010 at 9:02 pm

    For some reason Montero has a bad rep. Maybe he didn’t run out a ball last year, I don’t know why.
    Yes, we have always touted our prospects only to trade them away, but not a talent like this.
    As Lee is no longer available, and wouldn’t that have been a classic mistake, I don’t see him going anywhere, esp with getting Martin.
    Perfect opportunity to let him make it in ST, and if not, go back to AAA and get ready for a mid-summer callup.

  106. blake December 16th, 2010 at 9:02 pm

    MTU,

    I wouldn’t trade Montero for Greinke but I wouldn’t mind one bit if the Yankees were able to acquire him some other way. I think makeup questions around him are way overblown and somewhat misunderstood and I think there is just as good a chance that he would come to NY and be a 1A ace beside CC as there is that he would struggle. He is somewhat of a gamble though and is close to free agency…..so I would be hesitant to include Jesus for him. Josh Johnson yes though.

  107. ZMAN December 16th, 2010 at 9:02 pm

    It just shows that none of these writers (or GMs for that matter) have any clue about what a player wants.

    Read Kristen Lee’s quotes today… she said she didn’t want to live near Arkansas and wanted to experience a city-lifestyle and expose the kids to the culture of a big city. Yet everyone assumed the wife was the one who wanted Lee to sign with Texas because she didn’t want an urban environment.

    How many hours did the Heyman’s of the world spend writing about the “4.5 hour” drive to Arkansas and no-income tax? lol

  108. Betsy December 16th, 2010 at 9:03 pm

    Blake, I hope so……….but the fact that he’s not, at age 24 (going on 25) been able to show any consistent secondary pitches leads me to have a wait and see. I still recall him working all last off-season on his change and then never using it during the season (after he’d looked good with it at the end of ST)…….

  109. J. Alfred Prufrock December 16th, 2010 at 9:04 pm

    Many fans here were okay with the tough talk and didn’t mind one of the game’s good guys getting slimed by his only team’s front office.

    ///Many fans were thoroughly turned off by the yanks’ preemptive “things could get messy” strike and other undercutting barbs,like “shop around”,etc.don’t think this little blog is the yank universe.the stadium switchboard was jammed with objectors.I’m glad you were a voice in this place who refused to be run out by the snarky,soulless little creeps who have been playing the ARod vs. Jeter game in their fantasy baseball heads for yrs and highjacked the thread with their suffocating jeter hatred,tossing around the sample size of one down yr to declare him ready for the county morgue.but you,I,and some others didn’t let that pass,did we?nice goin’ :).hey I don’t mind bein a broken record on joba,don’t care if it causes discomfort or boredom in fans,I just would like a real answer on why we wasted an arm like this and why he’s through as a starter at 25,but has not enough of any sort of injury to prevent throwin 98,99 last yr.

  110. blake December 16th, 2010 at 9:06 pm

    Pitchers I would trade Montero for: (age and contact considered)

    Absolutes: Felix, Josh Johnson, Kershaw, Wainwright, Hallday, Ubaldo, Lester, Price.
    Maybes: Lincecum, Cain, Lee, Danks, Hanson.

  111. J. Alfred Prufrock December 16th, 2010 at 9:06 pm

    MDD2 December 16th, 2010 at 8:48 pm

    One more thing MDD2 – the ‘many’ were just multiple posts from the same crowd to a suffocating degree.they pushed their whole “saber value” system down the blog’s throat.they failed,because they couldn’t really make it stick cos they couldn’t get past bringing up one down yr.

    :D

  112. Yanks78 December 16th, 2010 at 9:07 pm

    Anderson would be a very shrewd move. Only 22 yrs old, had a 2.70 ERA this year. Great control, quality secondary pitches, throw hard.

    Don’t see anyway Beane gives him up though. I’d imagine Gonzalez is the guy they might move. They are an interesting team… if they get some offense, they can win that division.

  113. BoJo December 16th, 2010 at 9:07 pm

    2 words re: Joba–

    Brendon Morrow.

  114. BoJo December 16th, 2010 at 9:08 pm

    I’d take Gonzalez for Montero…in a minute.

  115. J. Alfred Prufrock December 16th, 2010 at 9:11 pm

    BoJo December 16th, 2010 at 9:07 pm
    2 words re: Joba–

    Brendon Morrow.

    ////yessir! and I’d go baumgarner too.

  116. Yanks78 December 16th, 2010 at 9:11 pm

    blake,

    Interesting list I agree for the most part. I’d add Verlander to it.

  117. blake December 16th, 2010 at 9:12 pm

    “Interesting list I agree for the most part. I’d add Verlander to it.”

    good call….me too.

  118. ET December 16th, 2010 at 9:12 pm

    Montero for Strasburg?

  119. MTU December 16th, 2010 at 9:12 pm

    Blake-

    Pretty good list. Thanks.

    Need to match Montero with any of those teams who need a Catcher/1b type.

  120. Keith--FL December 16th, 2010 at 9:12 pm

    Cashman ‘s fishing net seems to have lots of holes in it from the sharks in the water chewing on it as the Yankees keep sitting idly by (except for Martin) as the Sox keep adding and adding and willing to pay for relievers….in other news:
    a source said that last night Cashman, Levine, Trost, and both Steinbrenners were out at Malio’s Prime Steakhouse in Tampa and could be overheard in a private room celebrating the Yankees new payroll under $200 million at $185 million… :-):-):-)

  121. blake December 16th, 2010 at 9:18 pm

    MTU,

    the rub is that none of those teams are exactly motivated to move any of those guys as the Royals are with Greinke….I could see a situation where the Marlins might move Johnson in the near future because they don’t spend any money and his salary jumps to almost 14 million after next year but they don’t have to move him now and they are opening a new stadium soon…..if the Yankees called and offered Montero, Banuelos, Betances, etc….they might listen, I don’t know.

  122. vinny-b December 16th, 2010 at 9:18 pm

    Betsy December 16th, 2010 at 8:53 pm

    If Joba was the key, then the non-trade of Haren was beyond stupid -esp. since the Yankees view him merely as a reliever. If Cash put all his eggs in the Lee basket, then he’s really dumb for assuming he’d sign here. As I’ve seen mentioned elsewhere, they could have traded for Haren and then perhaps traded him……………or they could have kept Haren
    ————————————————

    I have to agree with this.

    side note: the weird thing is, after Pettitte’s prolong absence from the rotation, this wasn’t even looked back on much. A bad non-move for both 2010 and 2011.

  123. Betsy December 16th, 2010 at 9:20 pm

    Vinny, now that’s if Joba was the key. Same goes with Nova – Nova should not have held that trade up.

  124. 108 stitches December 16th, 2010 at 9:20 pm

    Quietly, the Oakland A’s have re-shaped the team well and without giving up much, a Billy Beane trademark.
    Not because Texas didn’t get Lee, but they’re not about to have the easy season in the AL West like they had in 2010. They got off the ground early and never looked back.
    The Angels are a mystery. Other than signing Scott Downs, they’ve been quiet.
    Seattle has done little if anything to improve themselves.

  125. MTU December 16th, 2010 at 9:23 pm

    Blake-

    The Martin get can be interpreted in a few different ways. It certainly may open up options w. Montero.

    I always remember that Cashman quote ” I will move any player in the right deal”.

    Most likely he’s not goin’ anywhere but you never know.

  126. blake December 16th, 2010 at 9:25 pm

    I don’t know what the Angels are doing……….I think Texas will still be the team to beat in that division by the time ST starts, the A’s have a good rotation but they still are going to be offensively challenged and I think the Rangers will add a starter whether its Greinke or Garza, they just have more balance right now.

  127. Tank December 16th, 2010 at 9:26 pm

    Absolutes: Felix, Josh Johnson, Kershaw, Wainwright, Hallday, Ubaldo, Lester, Price.
    Maybes: Lincecum, Cain, Lee, Danks, Hanson.

    ———

    Agree for the most part. Now, as far as the chances of acquiring them:

    Felix – I don’t think any chance in the short term. In a couple of years maybe.
    Johnson – Doubtful, but maybe as he starts to make more $$ in a year or two.
    Kershaw – No shot
    Wainwright – No shot.
    Ubaldo – Could see this, but not in the short term.
    Cain – Definitely possible, but not this year.
    Danks – Definitely possible from a value standpoint, but they have nowhere to play him.
    Hanson – Doubt it.

    Lester/Price/Halladay/Lee/Lincecum – no

  128. blake December 16th, 2010 at 9:27 pm

    MTU,

    Yea it could be for both….he’s insurance in case Montero isn’t ready and allows them to take their time with him and it also gives the opportunity to trade him if something came along that made sense. I like the Martin signing but I would still like to see Montero given a shot to win the job in ST.

  129. blake December 16th, 2010 at 9:30 pm

    Tank, yup. None seem very realistic right now but you never know….

  130. MTU December 16th, 2010 at 9:31 pm

    Blake-

    I agree.

    It’s gonna take someone great for us to move him.

    Wouldn’t you like to see the Yankees internal
    scouting report on him ?

  131. LGY December 16th, 2010 at 9:32 pm

    Heard this: Kristen Lee didn’t want NY cause kids scared of how lifelike statue
    Yanks put at SS #famdecision

  132. blake December 16th, 2010 at 9:36 pm

    “Wouldn’t you like to see the Yankees internal
    scouting report on him ?”

    Yes I would ;) They may know things we don’t….I am a bit surprised that they named Martin the starter now instead of having them compete for the job in ST, I’m sure part of the agreement that Martin would sign with them was that he would be the starter but they really didn’t have to announce that publicly at this point. Just think its strange that Montero was going to be given a shot when they thought they were getting Lee and now he’s apparently not anymore.

  133. blake December 16th, 2010 at 9:38 pm

    “Heard this: Kristen Lee didn’t want NY cause kids scared of how lifelike statue
    Yanks put at SS #famdecision”

    he signed, its over now ;)

  134. MTU December 16th, 2010 at 9:38 pm

    Blake-

    What young position player(s) would you trade Montero for ?

  135. Jeremy December 16th, 2010 at 9:39 pm

    I am really starting to doubt Cashman’s ability as a GM. I know that he helped re-establish the farm system but his trackrecord is not the best.

    If Cashman trades Montero for some middle of the road garbage or Matt Garza then he should be fired.

  136. Hopdevil December 16th, 2010 at 9:43 pm

    “Absolutes: Felix, Josh Johnson, Kershaw, Wainwright, Hallday, Ubaldo, Lester, Price.
    Maybes: Lincecum, Cain, Lee, Danks, Hanson.”

    Pretty much agree on this – except I’d remove Halladay and Lee (because of age – not because of talent) and probably bump Lester down to maybe (not that that one matters lol)

    Trading Montero for any pitcher not on this list would be huge mistake, in my view.

  137. Pat M. December 16th, 2010 at 9:43 pm

    Never knew that Tendonitis was concerned an injury ??? That’s what Joba suffered from …..There’s nothing wrong with Joba other than being over 25 pounds overweight and lacks self discipline and dedication……If he doesn’t turn things around he could be out of the game by the time he’s 30…….

  138. blake December 16th, 2010 at 9:43 pm

    MTU,

    I don’t know….really can’t think of many. Buster Posey, Jason Heyward,…..maybe Upton. All those are maybes though, counterproductive to trade a high upside bat for a high upside bat, especially if there is a chance he can catch.

  139. 108 stitches December 16th, 2010 at 9:44 pm

    I’ll bet not very many posters have seen Jesus Montero with a bat in his hands with the exception of some videos or a trip to Trenton or Scranton/Wilkes-Barre.
    GB-7 for one, has seen enough of Montero to give a good assessment of what he’s about including his improvement of work behind the plate at the levels he’s played at. He’s worked hard with AAA coach Butch Wynegar to improve his footwork.
    Personally, I’ve seen him for the last 2 spring trainings both in games and in batting practice.
    When he steps in the batting cage, it suddenly gets crowded in the back of the cage and the sound of the bat meeting the ball is Mickey Mantle-like. He connects with long high power to any part of the field. He’s not strictly a pull hitter.
    Cashman got lucky when Seattle changed their minds last July and took Justin Smoak in the Lee deal.

  140. BoJo December 16th, 2010 at 9:44 pm

    Saw rumor on Daily News Blogging the Bombers that Toronto is interested in Beltre for 3B…first I have seen of that. Would make them a very serious contender.

  141. Jeremy December 16th, 2010 at 9:45 pm

    Getting Carlos Zambrano or some other loser is not the answer to the problem. I hope Cashman doesn’t make a stupid mistake like the Javy trade.

  142. blake December 16th, 2010 at 9:45 pm

    I would come a lot closer to bumping Lee now because of his contract than Halladay. Halladay is a better pitcher and has a better contract….I’d still trade Montero for 3 years and an option of Doc. JMO.

  143. Hopdevil December 16th, 2010 at 9:46 pm

    “What young position player(s) would you trade Montero for ?”

    I’d start with Hanley Ramirez. Not many others I can think of at the moment. Definitely no outfielder. (and yes I know Jeter is SS for now, but this is fantasy anyway)

  144. blake December 16th, 2010 at 9:47 pm

    “If he doesn’t turn things around he could be out of the game by the time he’s 30…….”

    sad but true.

  145. TD213 December 16th, 2010 at 9:47 pm

    “Just think its strange that Montero was going to be given a shot when they thought they were getting Lee and now he’s apparently not anymore.”

    Yeah, that is odd. And it’s not like Martin is some proven commodity… he’s had 2 subpar years in a row and injuries. He is a very good defensive catcher from the reports, but far from a sure thing. It’s not like he’s Brian Mccaan.

    If they felt he wasn’t ready to catch and needed more time, why did Cash come out and say Jorge is the DH and Montero has an opportunity to win the job?

    And that quote from Cash won’t quiet down the trade chatter.

  146. vinny-b December 16th, 2010 at 9:48 pm

    # Betsy December 16th, 2010 at 9:20 pm

    Vinny, now that’s if Joba was the key. Same goes with Nova – Nova should not have held that trade up.
    —————————–

    true. Don’t know if this was ever definitive or not (ie Joba)

  147. Jeremy December 16th, 2010 at 9:48 pm

    Pat M.
    Do you think Joba understands this ? Because it seems like he doesn’t based on the past 2 years of failure and regression. Based on Joba’s body language it seems like he doesn’t care. I hope things change because if he doesn’t they should just get rid of him.

  148. Pat M. December 16th, 2010 at 9:48 pm

    Betsy…..Once again, Arizona wanted Robertson or Brackman to be included with Nova who both clubs agreed upon as the starter to be exchanged……….Angels offered Joe Saunders and Cashman wouldn’t part with either reliever……This information is by way of a Diamondback scout a few days after the deal was consummated…….

  149. blake December 16th, 2010 at 9:50 pm

    I’d rather have Tulo than Hanley….by a lot. Hanley turns 27 soon and I’m not sure how much longer he’ll be playing SS..

  150. BD (Boston Dave) December 16th, 2010 at 9:50 pm

    “Pitchers I would trade Montero for: (age and contact considered)

    Absolutes: Felix, Josh Johnson, Kershaw, Wainwright, Hallday, Ubaldo, Lester, Price.
    Maybes: Lincecum, Cain, Lee, Danks, Hanson.”

    ——————

    I assure you rival GM’s do not value Montero even 1/2 as much as some of the Yanks fans here.

    Face it, no team is going to trade a sure-fire ace for a prospect, regardless of how much potential you think he has, unless said ace is about to hit free agency and the team has no chance of affording to extend him.

    Not one of those on this list applies.

    Heck, Montero couldn’t even land a half season rental of Cliff Lee (thankfully)

  151. Against All Odds December 16th, 2010 at 9:52 pm

    ankFanCA December 16th, 2010 at 7:41 pm

    Betsy — I disagree with you re: Joba. He’s not economical enough to be a good starter. I’m not sure he’ll ever be a good enough reliever either.
    —————————————-

    Well then they have to trade him because he brings nothing to the team

  152. BoJo December 16th, 2010 at 9:52 pm

    It’s so unlike Cashman to announce a rookie as the starter for the next year, and then pick up a FA…just ask Bubba Crosby.

  153. blake December 16th, 2010 at 9:52 pm

    Pat M,

    So Arizona wanted Nova and Robertson or Brackman? Why didn’t they do that?….I understand the need wasn’t there as much at the time but still…..

  154. Pat M. December 16th, 2010 at 9:54 pm

    Jeremy….Let me just say this, when I see the Yanks on the road ( mostly Anaheim ) Joba seems more involved with the fans seated near the bullpen than the game itself……Maybe he needs to go the route that Bobby Jenks took after The Angels got fed up with his crap…….Jenks hit rock bottom before he got his act together…..Jenks was beast when he was young, 100 mph heater but loved the nightlife…..I always think of him when ever the Joba frustration talk comes about……..

  155. blake December 16th, 2010 at 9:54 pm

    BD,

    We established that none of the guys on that list would be traded….that wasn’t the point, it was more about the value of keeping Montero.

  156. BoJo December 16th, 2010 at 9:55 pm

    BD (Boston Dave) December 16th, 2010 at 9:50 pm

    Agreed. That is why a Brett Anderson or Gio Gonzalez is more likely…still young before their prime–but with upside. Would have to include some other prospects but worth doing.

    Yankees can always sign a DH with Montero’s bat…but a young LHP with upside #2 or #3 potential is what wins championships.

  157. TD213 December 16th, 2010 at 9:56 pm

    I’d do Heyward, Stanton, Posey, Hanley, Tulo, Longoria, Cabrera, Upton, for Montero

  158. Hopdevil December 16th, 2010 at 9:56 pm

    Boston Dave,

    I think most in baseball have a very high opinion of Montero – he’s asked for by clubs approaching the Yanks and most refer to him as a top 5 prospect in all of baseball.

    I do agree that he will not land one of the pitchers on that list for the reasons you outlined – but it’s still fun to talk about! ;-)

    Also I think it underscores that the Yanks should keep Montero because the only pitchers REALLY worth him are unobtainable (at this point).

  159. Against All Odds December 16th, 2010 at 9:56 pm

    # Betsy December 16th, 2010 at 8:07 pm

    Gary, I don’t necessarily believe in Joba – I’m not even a big fan of his – but it bothers me that the Yankees gave up on him after 1 full year of starting. What does that say about how they’d handle other young pitchers?
    ————————–

    It says they don’t know how to handle them. Joba was a brand new toy that once they got their hands on they got caught up in it. That doesn’t mean Joba doesn’t take some of the blame because he does but the Yankees didn’t exactly help the situation either.

  160. Pat M. December 16th, 2010 at 9:56 pm

    Blake, without Roberston , an arguement can be made that The Yanks don’t win in 09…..He secured the 7th inning role ……Brackman is well thought of around baseball circles

  161. yanks 27 December 16th, 2010 at 9:57 pm

    Robertson or Brackman? That was the deal-breaker?

    Wow.

  162. BoJo December 16th, 2010 at 9:57 pm

    And regarding any notion that Montero could someday be a catcher with a plus bat….

    IMO–That might be true a few years ago when steroids had clubs playing for homers, but the running game that is now becoming prevalent puts a premium on a defensive cathcer–which Montero probably will never be. Thus, DH or 1B (after Tex leaves) is more likely…and less valuable

  163. Bret The Hitman December 16th, 2010 at 9:58 pm

    re: Cliff Lee

    The Yankees obsession with him really damaged this team. First, they passed on 3 years of Danny Haren who was a proven AL performer available for marginal prospects at best. They turned around and tried to trade Jesus Montero for 3 extra months of Lee. They bashed Jeter in the public to squeeze a few more pennies in the budget to make room for Lee. They bluffed with Crawford and labeled him a Plan B which was blatantly disrespectful. They froze their entire offseason plan for Lee to the point where Cashman left the Winter Meetings early.

    Cash should’ve pulled the trigger on Haren and not waited on anybody.

    The Yankees should wait on nobody.

    That’s how it should be.

    Hopefully Cashman learned his lesson.

    It will cost him a year.

  164. Jeremy December 16th, 2010 at 9:58 pm

    Pat M.

    I see the Jenks -Joba comparison. And it does seem like he doesn’t focus that much. Maybe he needs a fresh start with another team.

  165. Against All Odds December 16th, 2010 at 9:58 pm

    # Doreen December 16th, 2010 at 8:15 pm

    What the Yankees did with Joba only talks to how they dealt with Joba. It is not about any other pitcher in their system.
    —————————–

    Yes it is because it speaks to how they develop and mature the talent. The Yankees were the ones that gave Hughes and Kennedy rotation spots in 08 right. They were the ones that felt they had nothing else to learn at AAA.

  166. blake December 16th, 2010 at 9:59 pm

    Pat M,

    I guess so (I like Roberston a lot)…though I think Cashman would make that deal now if given the chance. So Joba wasn’t really involved at all in that situation?

  167. REZ12 December 16th, 2010 at 10:01 pm

    “Blake, without Roberston , an arguement can be made that The Yanks don’t win in 09…..He secured the 7th inning role ……Brackman is well thought of around baseball circles”

    But look at what Haren was traded for – Carlos Gonzalez AND Brett Anderson.

    He is a very good pitcher. That is a reasonable package.

  168. P December 16th, 2010 at 10:01 pm

    there is not one good pitcher available via trade that wouldn’t cost us the farm, but not even that’s available. yanks have handcuffed themselves, hope they can make something happen because I’m not optimistic like a lot of u.. this blog has been known for people to place much higher value on pinstripe players.. 90% of the regulars thought melky was a future star..

    it’s one thing to be optimistic but another to be so delusional! get a grip this team ain’t as good as they show on paper.

  169. BD (Boston Dave) December 16th, 2010 at 10:02 pm

    “BD,

    We established that none of the guys on that list would be traded….that wasn’t the point, it was more about the value of keeping Montero.”

    —————-

    I agree the Yanks should keep Montero. I still think he’s being overvalued tremendously on here.

    I don’t agree that most see him as a top 5 prospect in all of baseball. I personally would like to think he is, but I don’t think most teams see him as a catcher long term.

    Perhaps that is simply because they have limited scouting on him and perhaps they will all be proven wrong. But the fact remains, unless he proves himself behind the plate at the major league level, he is a top 25 prospect and not a top-5 guy.

    If the Yanks could land an elite young pitcher for him, it’s a no-brainer. But they can’t, so yes, they should keep him and pray that he can play catcher.

  170. Pat M. December 16th, 2010 at 10:03 pm

    Odds……Phillip Hughes went from starter to a 1 inning reliever and back to a starter without too much difficulty……..Joba’s issues are between his ears and now between his belt line…….His conditioning is pitiful, and please spare me the David Wells comparisons……Wells’s mechanics were like that of a xerox machine from pitch 1 to pitch 100, which accounts for his pinpoint control…Besides he was baseball smart and didn’t hassle with his catchers…

  171. Hopdevil December 16th, 2010 at 10:04 pm

    “Yes it is because it speaks to how they develop and mature the talent. The Yankees were the ones that gave Hughes and Kennedy rotation spots in 08 right. They were the ones that felt they had nothing else to learn at AAA.”

    True but you hope they learned a lesson with that experience and won’t groom the future prospects in the same manner.

    Also, Hughes was too dominant at AAA to stay any longer. He wasn’t even being challenged. It was definitely time for him to come up – at some point he needed to come up to the bigs and struggle. Nearly every top pitcher has had to go through that at some point.

  172. Jeremy December 16th, 2010 at 10:05 pm

    The problem I have with Cashman is that it seems like he can only get big things done when it comes to spending large sums of money. Though I liked the CC move and the Tex move.

    I am getting worried that he will panic and make a stupid move just because Boston is making all of these moves. Trading Monetro for anything less that superstar talent would be a failure. And in my opinion I don’t want to see him go anywhere.

  173. blake December 16th, 2010 at 10:05 pm

    “I don’t agree that most see him as a top 5 prospect in all of baseball. I personally would like to think he is, but I don’t think most teams see him as a catcher long term. ”

    He’s top 5 on nearly every ranking for 2011 and is considered by many the best overall hitter currently in the minor leagues. Here’s Sickel’s grade:

    ) Jesus Montero, C, Grade A: No one will care much about the glove in five years.

  174. P December 16th, 2010 at 10:06 pm

    mark my words .. we finish 8+ games out of first

    unless we can get a strong bat and a #2,3 starter

  175. BD (Boston Dave) December 16th, 2010 at 10:06 pm

    frankly, I would love nothing more than for Montero to gun down Carl Crawford stealing in the 1st inning of the Red Sox home opener.

    In his first AB, he takes Lester deep over the green monster onto Landsdowne St.

    Cashman calls up Jack Z on his cell and just laughs for a couple minutes before hanging up.

  176. Captain Clutch December 16th, 2010 at 10:07 pm

    A kick in the pants to Joba would be if he performs really bad then send him to the minors instead of demoting him to mop up duty. Maybe then he will realize that he has to perform to stay on the team instead of getting a free ride because of how he pitched 4 years ago. They also have to get him on a weight loss/work out program. Too bad they didn’t sell high on him. I am sure in NL he could be really good.

  177. Pat M. December 16th, 2010 at 10:08 pm

    blake…Joba was offered, just as he was offered to Toronto and later to Philadelphia and each time those clubs were not impressed with him enough to the point where they wanted more ( Hughes ) or in the case with Arizona Brackman or Robertson……Shame is Joba could be so very good, but his poor conditioning and such is going to hurt him in some form or another…….

  178. Hopdevil December 16th, 2010 at 10:08 pm

    “Cashman calls up Jack Z on his cell and just laughs for a couple minutes before hanging up.”

    LOL now that would be fantastic on so many levels!

  179. BD (Boston Dave) December 16th, 2010 at 10:08 pm

    “He’s top 5 on nearly every ranking for 2011″

    ————

    links, please?

    not that “rankings” of publications that don’t do much actual scouting of players means much.

    but i still won’t believe he’s top 5 on nearly every ranking until i see them.

  180. Pat M. December 16th, 2010 at 10:10 pm

    >>>>>>> NEW PAGE

  181. Hopdevil December 16th, 2010 at 10:12 pm

    BD, here’s one reference to Montero by Joe Sheehan. I’ve seen it referenced other places too – will try to remember exactly where and post them…

    “If the Yankees are determined to trade Montero, who is one of the top five prospects in baseball, they should target less-obvious candidates who can contribute for more than 70 starts — even if it seems like these pitchers will, or should, be untouchable.”

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html

  182. BoJo December 16th, 2010 at 10:12 pm

    And Rueben Rivera was the next Mickey Mantle…

  183. P December 16th, 2010 at 10:14 pm

    Robertson is awesome.. joba was once unreal good but that was when he was under Clemens wing and when u see Jonas demeanor now compared to then he is somber and not all jacked up… really makes u wonder!!! I’m not assuming anything just stating facts.. u draw ur own conclusion.

  184. Against All Odds December 16th, 2010 at 10:15 pm

    # Pat M. December 16th, 2010 at 10:03 pm

    Odds……Phillip Hughes went from starter to a 1 inning reliever and back to a starter without too much difficulty……..Joba’s issues are between his ears and now between his belt line…….His conditioning is pitiful, and please spare me the David Wells comparisons……Wells’s mechanics were like that of a xerox machine from pitch 1 to pitch 100, which accounts for his pinpoint control…Besides he was baseball smart and didn’t hassle with his catchers…
    ——————————————–

    Oh yea don’t get me wrong Joba has things he has to work on it’s not completely the Yankees fault but they didn’t help the situation. The things they did in 2009 were a joke.

  185. Against All Odds December 16th, 2010 at 10:18 pm

    Hopdevil December 16th, 2010 at 10:04 pm

    True but you hope they learned a lesson with that experience and won’t groom the future prospects in the same manner.

    ————————————-

    Oh yea they learned their lesson because how they handled Hughes in 10 was different than how they handled Joba in 09.

    True he wasn’t being challenge in AAA but I still feel he was rushed up to the big show.

  186. theoldCrow December 17th, 2010 at 9:28 am

    Can one of the fellas that has access to Cashman please ask how Kerry Wood was able to sign for only $1.5M and not picked up by NY? It’s the most baffling deal of the off season so far

  187. theoldCrow December 17th, 2010 at 9:32 am

    Sending Joba to the pen cost him millions of dollars, I think he’s uninspired. I’m not sure why NY didn’t spend the winter babysitting him, help him get in shape, perhaps he slacks in the off season knowing he’s a 1 inning wonder right now.

  188. Against All Odds December 17th, 2010 at 10:51 am

    # theoldCrow December 17th, 2010 at 9:28 am

    Can one of the fellas that has access to Cashman please ask how Kerry Wood was able to sign for only $1.5M and not picked up by NY? It’s the most baffling deal of the off season so far
    ————————————————

    According to everyone Wood really wanted to go back to the Cubs.

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