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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Just not much out there

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 20, 2010 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

One more thing to consider about the Yankees quiet this offseason: It could be that the players who seem to make sense are not legitimately attainable.

This morning, Brian Cashman told Wally Matthews that the trade market includes a few starters, but none that he believes will make the team significantly better. “Could I go out and get a starter? Yes, I could,” Cashman told ESPNNewYork. “But there’s just not much out there.”

It’s easy to dream up trade scenarios — I myself have written about the idea of trading for Fausto Carmona or Wandy Rodriguez and any number of unattainable pipe dreams — but cost matters, availability matters, and guys like Felix Hernandez and Josh Johnson do not seem realistic. Make up all the trade packages you want, it seems next to impossible that a young, non-Greinke ace will be traded. In Cashman’s words: “That ain’t happening.”

When Cashman speaks on the record, it’s always hard to know how much is reality and how much posturing. He’s indicated a willingness to stick with internal options, especially if Andy Pettitte comes back, but would he really stay internal with Sergio Mitre as his fifth starter and Ivan Nova his fourth? I find that hard to believe, but then again, even the thin free agent market could provide upgrades for the back of the rotation.

At the top though, it may be that Cashman is telling the truth and front-line starters are not likely to be moved at a reasonable cost. We’ve already learned that the Yankees cost for Zack Greinke would have included Jesus Montero, Eduardo Nunez and one of their top pitching prospects. That’s not surprising. It’s a higher price than the Brewers paid, but as I wrote yesterday, the Yankees don’t have the pieces to perfectly match what the Brewers offered. If they couldn’t match it, the Yankees would have to top it.

It might be frustrating, but building a team isn’t only about finding pieces, it’s about finding pieces that actually fit.

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297 Responses to “Just not much out there”

  1. RadioKev December 20th, 2010 at 3:56 pm

    As others have pointed out, the biggest key is Pettitte signing. That will probably be the biggest difference maker for the remainder of the off season.

  2. Irreverent Discourse December 20th, 2010 at 3:56 pm

    Well said Chad. A little perspective goes a long way.

  3. Mell December 20th, 2010 at 3:57 pm

    “When Cashman speaks on the record, it’s always hard to know how much is reality and how much posturing.”

    ‘Cept the time he said he was OK with Bubba Crosby as his centerfielder? Pretty sure that was posturing from the get go.

  4. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 3:58 pm

    Chad -

    I believe Fausto Carmona is the most attainable guy out there – but the question is: What is Fausto Carmona worth?

    Just because a guy is available doesn’t mean you should go out and get him and just because CC Sabathia and Cliff Lee worked out for the teams that got them doesn’t mean every Cleveland pitcher is going to follow suit.

    Carmona has had his ups and downs and Cleveland’s GM isn’t an idiot – he knows as well as everyone else what the market looks like – so he’s going to want far more than what Carmona is actually worth.

    Would I do Gardner and Joba for Carmona – probably.

    Would that be enough to get Carmona – in this market – probably not.

    Many fans here want to believe that the guys who wear pinstripes (or might someday wear pinstripes) are the best in the game; far better than young players and prospects on other teams – the problem is, other teams don’t always see it the same way we fans do. To the Red Sox fan giving up Casey Kelly might have been a huge overpay for Gonzalez, the Brewer fan might think he got robbed having to give up Escobar and Lorenzo Cain. Much like the Yankee fan might think the very notion of parting with Brett Gardner is heracy.

  5. yankee21 December 20th, 2010 at 3:58 pm

    Chad, one point of disagreement,, Montero alone in that trade package beat the 4 stooges that MIL coughed up for the Zach-meister…

    The Yankees wisely passed on Grienke although it does make the situation a little dicey.

  6. heyman_sux December 20th, 2010 at 3:59 pm

    The Crosby thing was posturing for a free agent tho. A little tougher when you have to negotiate with prospects i think

  7. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 3:59 pm

    Mell December 20th, 2010 at 3:57 pm
    “When Cashman speaks on the record, it’s always hard to know how much is reality and how much posturing.”

    ‘Cept the time he said he was OK with Bubba Crosby as his centerfielder? Pretty sure that was posturing from the get go.

    ———————-

    And when he said that there was no way that he could forsee getting CC and any other premium FA’s much less two of them.

  8. Hopdevil December 20th, 2010 at 4:00 pm

    Good post, Chad. I believe that is the issue right now – there are plenty of guys I’d love to have on the Yanks – and none of those are realistic scenarios.

    At this point, it seems that the Yanks best bet will be to see what opens up in June/July and pull the trigger then if necessary…as opposed to trading for the sake of trading.

  9. Irreverent Discourse December 20th, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    yankee21 – Cain and Escobar are pretty highly touted prospects. Montero is not significantly more valuable than them.

  10. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    yankee21 December 20th, 2010 at 3:58 pm
    Chad, one point of disagreement,, Montero alone in that trade package beat the 4 stooges that MIL coughed up for the Zach-meister…

    The Yankees wisely passed on Grienke although it does make the situation a little dicey.

    ——————-

    Really? A kid who has never played in the majors and might not be able to remain at Catcher at all is better than (among others) a SS who has shown he can play in the majors, give you premium defense and will likely grow into a leadoff hitter and a CF who also provides top of the line defense and some power also at the major league level?

  11. Mike in Harrisburg December 20th, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    That last clause says it all.

  12. G-C December 20th, 2010 at 4:03 pm

    “Really? A kid who has never played in the majors and might not be able to remain at Catcher at all is better than (among others) a SS who has shown he can play in the majors, give you premium defense and will likely grow into a leadoff hitter and a CF who also provides top of the line defense and some power also at the major league level?”

    Montero alone trumps that package.

    Escobar is horrible. He wasn’t 20 last year, he was 24. Not old for a rookie breaking into the big leagues. There’s almost no statistical precedent for someone being that horrendous as an offensive player at 24 and developing into an actually competent hitter.

    Not to mention that from a scouting perspective, his swing is short and choppy and won’t ever generate much power to the gaps, let alone home run power.

    Just a horrible trade for Kansas City.

  13. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:03 pm

    Would I do Gardner and Joba for Carmona – probably.

    Hilarious overpay.

  14. heyman_sux December 20th, 2010 at 4:05 pm

    It was prob mentioned here before that KC has a catching prospect in their system that they are grooming. As Chad points out, this deal simply fit better for them. It’s pretty pointless to compare trade proposals after the fact. Greinke is a Brewer, that’s pretty much all you can say

  15. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:06 pm

    Really? A kid who has never played in the majors and might not be able to remain at Catcher at all is better than (among others) a SS who has shown he can play in the majors, give you premium defense and will likely grow into a leadoff hitter and a CF who also provides top of the line defense and some power also at the major league level?

    You’ve not described Escobar or Cain at all. Good job. Escobar’s best and only tool is his glove, which should be good but was dicey at the major league level. He was one of the worst hitters to play 140+ games in the league last year. He has no discipline or power, so projecting him to improve is not really there.

    Cain COULD be an elite defender but he isn’t yet. He lacks the speed of Brett Gardner. He also has no power. He might hit for a higher average than Brett, but end up with a lower on base and a near equal slugging percentage while not stealing as many bases or playing as good D.

  16. G-C December 20th, 2010 at 4:06 pm

    I recommend that everyone read Keith Law’s take on the Greinke trade.

    I don’t often agree with him, but he was spot on here.

    Just like they did with Beltran, the Royals for some reason chose quantity over quality. And when you are perpetually rebuilding, such a strategy almost never works. The only thing that can push a rebuilding team to the next level is legitimate high-impact talent. I hope they enjoy rebuilding around a shortstop who at his best will hit .300/.340/.400 (and he’s a hell of a long way from that considering he didn’t even OPS .600 last year) and a poor man’s Brett Gardner in Cain.

    Just mind-bogglingly dumb. Its no wonder that franchise is so perpetually awful.

  17. Vineyard Yankee December 20th, 2010 at 4:08 pm

    I am sick and tired of listening to the Pettitte crap as well as Cashman’s supposed ‘PLAN B’. There is no ‘PLAB B’, Pettitte should become a trail boss for a Texas Cattle Company and any more thoughts of getting Freddy Garcia is ridiculous.

    Freddy Garcia is Nick Johnsons’ roommate at the rehab facility. Signing Garcia would be the ultimate joke. Like Johnson, Vazquez, Brown, Weaver, Whitson etc.

  18. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:08 pm

    Montero is 4 years younger than both those players and has consistently destroyed the minor leagues. Neither Cain nor Escobar ever destroyed anything in their life except maybe little league.

    Montero’s upside is perennial HR and batting title threat. Cain and Escobar’s upside are non-superstar/all-star players at premium position. Cain isn’t going to OPS .800, Escobar isn’t going to OPS .750+

    They should be able to provide defense and a little hitting, if they reach their ceiling.

  19. joeman December 20th, 2010 at 4:08 pm

    there’s no doubt in my mind that they could get a good SP with a in season trade, problem is if Andy stays home they won’t be able to wait that long in the best division in baseball..

    BTW…a 39 year old AP

  20. DaSaint007 December 20th, 2010 at 4:08 pm

    Would I do Gardner and Joba for Carmona – probably.

    –—————————————-

    A young, cost controled CF/LF who has shown an ability to hit near .300, steal 50 bases, and is an elite defender

    PLUS

    A young, cost controlled setup man who was dominant just a couple years ago, and whom some feel (Yankees excluded) could be a mid-rotation starter

    for Fausto Carmona??

    Chip, even for you that’s outlandish.

  21. G-C December 20th, 2010 at 4:09 pm

    “It was prob mentioned here before that KC has a catching prospect in their system that they are grooming. As Chad points out, this deal simply fit better for them. It’s pretty pointless to compare trade proposals after the fact. Greinke is a Brewer, that’s pretty much all you can say”

    _____________________________________________

    There’s a cliche that gets thrown around often regarding the NBA draft. Teams that are drafting in the high lottery are, more than 90 percent of the time, so bad that you don’t ever draft based on “need.” Because odds are, unless you have a big time exception (which the Royals simply don’t), if you’re that bad you need just about everything.

    You don’t trade one of the best 10 pitchers in baseball for prospects based on “need.” In fact, you never acquire prospects based on “need.” If you do that, you end up acquiring lesser talents, and its THOSE lesser talents that give prospects the reputation of being fungible and unpredictable.

  22. Irreverent Discourse December 20th, 2010 at 4:09 pm

    G_C – Montero has 0 at bats in the majors. He trumps nothing but speculation. Cain already batted .300 in the majors and Escobar was ranked as high as 12 on BA’s list, not often are they that wrong?

  23. Vineyard Yankee December 20th, 2010 at 4:09 pm

    typo: s/b……. PLAN B. Not PLAB.

  24. Irreverent Discourse December 20th, 2010 at 4:10 pm

    G-C – You don’t trade one of the best 10 pitchers in baseball

    Well, they didn’t.

  25. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:10 pm

    yankee21 – Cain and Escobar are pretty highly touted prospects. Montero is not significantly more valuable than them.

    Cain was only highly touted in that he was the best prospect left on the brewers that was close to the majors. Escobar was highly touted as a defensive shortstop but with significant questions of his motivation, work ethic, and ability to hit.

    And he played 140 atrocious games last year.

  26. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:11 pm

    “There’s almost no statistical precedent for someone [Escobar] being that horrendous as an offensive player at 24 and developing into an actually competent hitter.”

    A quick look at baseball reference turns up Jay Bell and Roy Smalley at the SS position without putting the thinking cap on. Ozzie Smith too, although where you rate him as a hitter could pose definitional problems.

  27. GreenBeret7 December 20th, 2010 at 4:11 pm

    Cain has no power. He’s averaged 5 homers a season in the minors or 6.5 if you give him more than 550 at bats. Let me know if Escobar ever hits over .250 or when Jeffress gets through a season without failing a piss test.

  28. heyman_sux December 20th, 2010 at 4:11 pm

    G-C – fair enough. Doesn’ t change the fact that the Royals felt different and they valued the prospects @ their positions. If that’s their philosophy for trades, can’t do much about it

  29. DaSaint007 December 20th, 2010 at 4:12 pm

    I’m trading 2 low to mid-level minor league arms (translation: none of the names ever mentioned on this blog), for Carmona.

    In no way would anyone on my ML roster be included.

    Ok, maybe Cervelli or Pena.
    Or Curtis or Golson.

  30. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:12 pm

    Montero has 0 at bats in the majors. He trumps nothing but speculation. Cain already batted .300 in the majors and Escobar was ranked as high as 12 on BA’s list, not often are they that wrong?

    -

    Ok so Cain’s production in the majors counts for something, but for Escobar we fall back on his prospect ranking. Which was predicated on his defense. His best tool is listed as: defense.

    Montero has been ranked in the top 5 on the same list.

  31. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 4:13 pm

    Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:03 pm
    Would I do Gardner and Joba for Carmona – probably.

    Hilarious overpay.

    —————–

    Thus bringing me back to the point that some Yankee fans not only see our young players and prospects as not only the best thing since sliced bread, but that sliced bread has a ways to go before catching up to our prospects and young players.

    I’m sure if you proposed that same deal to a fan of the Indians he would laugh in your face that his team’s not getting nearly enough in the deal.

  32. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:14 pm

    I’m sure if you proposed that same deal to a fan of the Indians he would laugh in your face that his team’s not getting nearly enough in the deal.

    Fausto Carmona has a career 4.5 era, and the last 2 seasons before 2010 had ERA’s over 5 and couldn’t throw 200 innings. He is a free agent in 2 years.

    He is a guy that will be traded for prospects, not established good major leaguers.

  33. blake December 20th, 2010 at 4:14 pm

    Escobar is closer Ramiero Pena than he is a future elite SS.

  34. G-C December 20th, 2010 at 4:14 pm

    “G_C – Montero has 0 at bats in the majors. He trumps nothing but speculation. Cain already batted .300 in the majors and Escobar was ranked as high as 12 on BA’s list, not often are they that wrong?”

    _________________________________________

    You’re better than this man.

    Lorenzo Cain hit .308/.348/.415 in 147 major league at bats. Whoop-dee-doo. Montero has destroyed every level of minor league pitching he’s ever been at while simultaneously being about FOUR years young for every single level he has been at. You can’t discount Montero for never having played in the big leagues and then point to Lorenzo Cain’s 147 at bats and act as if they represent some kind of comparable talent. Especially when Cain is 24 years old and Montero is 20. Alcides Escobar was also the worst player in the major leagues last year by most metrics.

    Montero is the best Yankee hitting prospect to come through these ranks since Mickey Mantle. His statistical and scouting profile is just that special.

    On BA, I’ve stopped relying on them for prospect-related information. I still like Jim Callis, but for the most part I’ve seen them whiff on far too many guys I’ve followed closely to really put a whole lot of stock in what they say anymore. Baseball Prospectus, IMO is a better source, but that’s just an opinion.

  35. Dee December 20th, 2010 at 4:16 pm

    I just don’t believe it. There HAS to be someone available my goodness. It’s on the point of being ridiculous now.

  36. heyman_sux December 20th, 2010 at 4:16 pm

    This just in…

    The trade is done. Why bother comparing prospects…especially when you know we’re biased towards Yankee prospects

  37. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:16 pm

    The Royals have Myers and Hosmer, why exactly are they dying for Montero? They have a great farm system but no SS or CF prospects. They did a deal where they got a couple.

    The Yanks, on the other hand, are so excited about Montero as C that they signed Martin for $4M and will probably send Montero to AAA.

  38. DaSaint007 December 20th, 2010 at 4:17 pm

    Chip,

    Carmona is not bringing back 2 major league roster players.

    Not happening.

  39. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 4:17 pm

    Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:14 pm
    I’m sure if you proposed that same deal to a fan of the Indians he would laugh in your face that his team’s not getting nearly enough in the deal.

    Fausto Carmona has a career 4.5 era, and the last 2 seasons before 2010 had ERA’s over 5 and couldn’t throw 200 innings. He is a free agent in 2 years.

    He is a guy that will be traded for prospects, not established good major leaguers.
    ————–

    Joba Chamberlain is not an established good major leaguer.

    His is a middle reliever who has been at best serviceable for the last two years. Ever since he hurt his shoulder.

  40. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:17 pm

    The Royals have Myers and Hosmer, why exactly are they dying for Montero? They have a great farm system but no SS or CF prospects. They did a deal where they got a couple.

    Trading specifically for need is stupid and got the Royals in hot-water before. Its no surprise Dayton Moore did the same thing and got a bunch of not-sure-things.

  41. G-C December 20th, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    A quick look at baseball reference turns up Jay Bell and Roy Smalley at the SS position without putting the thinking cap on. Ozzie Smith too, although where you rate him as a hitter could pose definitional problems.”

    Jay Bell had a 94 OPS + in the big leagues at the age of 24. Doesn’t even compare to Escobar’s lovely 67.

    Roy Smalley was a .230 career hitter. If that’s Escobar’s upside…

  42. Irreverent Discourse December 20th, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    Jerkface I’m sure you saw this alraedy

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....-and-cain/

    It does explain why Escobar won’t be as bad as he was.

  43. raymagnetic December 20th, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    I’ve always felt Sliced Bread was a real loafer.

  44. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:16 pm
    The Royals have Myers and Hosmer, why exactly are they dying for Montero? They have a great farm system but no SS or CF prospects. They did a deal where they got a couple.

    The Yanks, on the other hand, are so excited about Montero as C that they signed Martin for $4M and will probably send Montero to AAA.

    ——————–

    A couple of years ago the Yankees were so excited about Robinson Cano as a 2b that they signed Tony Womack

  45. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    “Trading specifically for need is stupid”

    No it’s not, so there.

    The Royals already have a great hitting-defensively challenged catching prospect, why exactly are they in crying need for another?

  46. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    raymagnetic December 20th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
    I’ve always felt Sliced Bread was a real loafer.

    ————

    Well said.

  47. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    Joba Chamberlain is not an established good major leaguer.

    he has 2 very good relief seasons, a good starting season for a player who is under 24, and an up and down relief season with great periphs. He has failed less than Fausto Carmona.

    If Carmona is traded it will be for the likes of Ivan Nova. Not Brett Gardner and Joba Chamberlain.

  48. Irreverent Discourse December 20th, 2010 at 4:20 pm

    G-C – Small. Sample. Size. Come on. Jay Bell had 500 ML at bats before he was 24. Thats not even a fair comaprison.

  49. Vineyard Yankee December 20th, 2010 at 4:21 pm

    Thank goodness the Greinke deal got done. Now maybe the conversations and ‘what ifs’ will die off and go away here. Greinke was never coming here with his mental makeup.

  50. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:21 pm

    No it’s not, so there.

    The Royals already have a great hitting-defensively challenged catching prospect, why exactly are they in crying need for another?

    Myers isn’t even in AA yet? Montero could start for the royals NEXT year? And yea trading for need is stupid when you specifically limit your options and take a lesser package for the kind of talent and contract that Greinke had.

  51. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 4:21 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:19 pm
    “Trading specifically for need is stupid”

    No it’s not, so there.

    The Royals already have a great hitting-defensively challenged catching prospect, why exactly are they in crying need for another?

    ——————–

    The Yankees had Jesus Montero, Austin Romine, JR Murphy, Kyle Higashoka in the system – why did they need to sign Gary Sanchez?

    A good prospect is a good prospect – you can either make room for them in your organization or use them in a trade to bolster you other places.

  52. Irreverent Discourse December 20th, 2010 at 4:22 pm

    Jerkface – Part of the “Yankee overpay” in deals is that… teams don’t want to help the Yankees to get better.

    Letting the Brewers get better does not impede the Royals in any way.

  53. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    It does explain why Escobar won’t be as bad as he was.

    Yes, he had a low BABIP and in the article they normalized it and he hit .255. he is still a horrendous offensive player.

  54. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    “A couple of years ago the Yankees were so excited about Robinson Cano as a 2b that they signed Tony Womack”

    That is of course meaningless, but if it were meaningful I don’t know which way it would cut.

  55. joeman December 20th, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    The Yanks, on the other hand, are so excited about Montero as C that they signed Martin for $4M and will probably send Montero to AAA.
    ————————————————————————————————
    True if they thought he was ready( defense) they wouldn’t have signed Martin, but I would have a tough time trading him right now ….if he stays in this system this will be a big year for him, they have to see if he can be a catcher in the ML

  56. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:19 pm
    Joba Chamberlain is not an established good major leaguer.

    he has 2 very good relief seasons, a good starting season for a player who is under 24, and an up and down relief season with great periphs. He has failed less than Fausto Carmona.

    If Carmona is traded it will be for the likes of Ivan Nova. Not Brett Gardner and Joba Chamberlain.
    —————-

    Except Fausto Carmona is actually a starting pitcher whereas Joba Chamberlain is what? Last I saw him it was as a mop up reliever…unless Isiah Thomas becomes a MLB GM you’re going to find it tough to find a GM who values a 6th inning relief pitcher and a “gritty” number 9 hitter over a league average starting pitcher in his mid 20s.

  57. heyman_sux December 20th, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    Doesn’t hurt the Brewers are an NL team. Teams don’t like seeing their best players come back and beat them in pinstripes…

  58. G-C December 20th, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    I’m not sure what your point is IR.

    You were the one who was relying on Cain’s 147 at bats (small sample size) as representing some kind of major league ability, while simultaneously discounting Montero for not having played in the big leagues.

    That was exactly the point I was trying to make.

  59. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:24 pm

    “Montero could start for the royals NEXT year?”

    But not for the Yanks over Cervelli? Oh those Royals, they’ll play anybody.

  60. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:24 pm

    Everyone panning the trade says the same thing: The royals traded with a team that matched their needs regardless of the expected quality of the return. This resulted in getting a sub-par package of players for their premiere trade talent.

    They could have traded for Montero, started him next year, and used Myers to trade for a Cf/SS. They could have done any number of things. Instead they got 2 lottery tickets whose upside isn’t an impact player.

  61. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:26 pm

    But not for the Yanks over Cervelli? Oh those Royals, they’ll play anybody.

    Yea, last I checked the Royals start a lot of players who wouldn’t start on the Yankees.

  62. Irreverent Discourse December 20th, 2010 at 4:26 pm

    Jerkface – That is unfair and you know it. It is a normalized bad rookie season. It is largely meaningless. He’s been a .300 hitter his entire minor league career and will steal 40+ bases every year.

  63. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 4:27 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
    “A couple of years ago the Yankees were so excited about Robinson Cano as a 2b that they signed Tony Womack”

    That is of course meaningless, but if it were meaningful I don’t know which way it would cut.

    ————————

    Just because you have no response to it does not make it meaningless.

    The Martin signing, much like the Womack one, has nothing to do with how the Yankees feel about Montero. It has to do with an organizational approach.

    The Yankees don’t want a rookie – any rookie – in a position where he’s going to have to call and catch 100 plus games for a veteran rotation. They didn’t want Jorge doing it, they don’t want Montero doing it.

    They also do not want Francisco Cervelli catching 100 games because he stinks.

    Further they don’t want Jorge catching 100 games because he’s old and his body won’t hold up to it.

    As such they went out and got a 27 year old catcher who, yes is coming off injury, but also has a pretty strong track record as a defensive catcher. If all works out well then they have a modern day Joe Girardi to compliment their modern day Jorge Posada.

  64. Vineyard Yankee December 20th, 2010 at 4:27 pm

    Joba Chamberlain is not an established good major leaguer.

    His is a middle reliever who has been at best serviceable for the last two years. Ever since he hurt his shoulder.

    ===============

    Chip, exactly. Whatever trade value that Joba ‘HAD’ is long gone now. He won’t be a SP for the NYY’s and has been inconsistent in the pen. Joba should be more dedicated to his career, especiallly his conditioning. Being a fat, drunken savage won’t help him increase his value as a pitcher.

  65. MG December 20th, 2010 at 4:27 pm

    I’ll return (briefly) from my winter away from baseball and wonder why everyone is so upset over the lack of moves in the offseason. This is a direct contradiction of the overwhelming interest in the blog on all of the Yankees prospects.

    If Andy retires, he retires. He has had a great career and only he knows the right time to hang it up, just like Mussina did.

    If he does retire, the Yankees have some big shoes to fill and there is no one available by trade or free agency to do so. So they might as well give the kids in the minors a chance to fill the other two rotation spots. If it means missing the playoffs in 2011, they will miss the playoffs, big deal. The advantage in doing so, of course, is that the rotation in 2012+, assuming at least one of the kids sticks, is that it is much stronger for the long term.

    I’m an old-time fan and OK with that, why wouldn’t those of you who are younger and who have a lifetime in front of you be OK with it as well. After all, that’s how dynasties are developed. Plus, it’s no guarantee they won’t make the playoffs with a ‘weaker’ rotation anyway, you just never know in baseball.

  66. joeman December 20th, 2010 at 4:27 pm

    I think joba’s problem is between his ears, the kid never seems relaxed on the mound, he’s has the stuff to be a good pitcher

  67. Captain Clutch December 20th, 2010 at 4:28 pm

    Ken Davidoff must read this web site:

    KenDavidoff #Yankees don’t view, Garza, #WhiteSox Ps (Floyd, Jackson) as realistic trade options at this point.

  68. Carlo December 20th, 2010 at 4:28 pm

    Chip December 20th, 2010 at 3:58 pm

    Would I do Gardner and Joba for Carmona – probably.

    ———————————————

    I really struggle with this. It opens two holes and may fill one. If there were ways to easily replace gardner with a leadoff hitter with his speed and patience at the plate, then fine…..but i dont see that guy.

  69. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:28 pm

    Its not unfair at all, he is a career .293 .333 .377 .709 hitter in the minor leagues, who hit under .300 more often that he hit over it and struck out 16% of the time while not walking. He is going to have real trouble hitting in the majors.

  70. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:28 pm

    “Yea, last I checked the Royals start a lot of players who wouldn’t start on the Yankees.”

    If Montero could start for the Royals at C he could start for the Yanks at C.

  71. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 4:31 pm

    Vineyard Yankee December 20th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
    Joba Chamberlain is not an established good major leaguer.

    His is a middle reliever who has been at best serviceable for the last two years. Ever since he hurt his shoulder.

    ===============

    Chip, exactly. Whatever trade value that Joba ‘HAD’ is long gone now. He won’t be a SP for the NYY’s and has been inconsistent in the pen. Joba should be more dedicated to his career, especiallly his conditioning. Being a fat, drunken savage won’t help him increase his value as a pitcher.

    ———————-

    That’s right. There are still those who view Joba as the pumped up flame thrower who had all the hype in 2008.

    The reality is that the Joba of 2010/2011 is nothing more than Aaron Heilman.

    He’s not a starter, not a closer…just a reliever.

  72. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:31 pm

    If Montero could start for the Royals at C he could start for the Yanks at C.

    Maybe he could start at C for the yankees. That doesn’t mean the Yankees have to start him, or should start him. Maybe he hits better and grows better eased into the role?

    Montero would share time with JAson Kendall on the Royals. Just like he will probably share time with Martin this year on the Yankees.

    You’ve taken a really weird stance on Montero just because of the Martin signing when it makes complete sense that the Yankees were going to bring in another catcher once it was decided Posada wasn’t the starting catcher.

  73. heyman_sux December 20th, 2010 at 4:32 pm

    MG – THANK YOU

    The Yankees as constructed are still a playoff team. Some young pitchers are about to get some experience, and the team is even more flush with cash to burn than usual. The way I see it, the Yanks are at their most dangerous right now.

    The offseason only seems disappointing b.c we’ve seen the sox/phillies improve. And it’s magnified b/c theyre teams in our backyard (does anyone care that the Brewers rotation is looking pretty decent right now?) But those teams HAD to improve.

  74. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:32 pm

    “Just because you have no response to it does not make it meaningless.”

    Oh, I have a response, I just didn’t want to be so unkind as to point out how stupid it is to take a particular example – one that does not reflect well on the Yanks because they signed Womak due to a complete misjudgment on how close Cano was – to attempt to prove a general rule.

    Very bad example, and very bad logic. Typical, unfortunately.

  75. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 4:34 pm

    Carlo December 20th, 2010 at 4:28 pm
    Chip December 20th, 2010 at 3:58 pm

    Would I do Gardner and Joba for Carmona – probably.

    ———————————————

    I really struggle with this. It opens two holes and may fill one. If there were ways to easily replace gardner with a leadoff hitter with his speed and patience at the plate, then fine…..but i dont see that guy.
    ———————-

    Actually to me it only opens up one hole – LF.

    Gardner’s not a leadoff guy – not for the Yankees – Jeter is. Gardner’s the number 9 hitter. I would replace him by signing Johnny Damon and giving the team a deeper lineup.

    As for the pen – I think Joba could be easily replaced by Romulo Sanchez or some other callup without missing a beat. He doesn’t hold a premium role in the pen and is therefore replaceable.

  76. Irreverent Discourse December 20th, 2010 at 4:35 pm

    G-C – Not entirely correct… I never said anything about Cain, only that he is not a total scrub prospect. Escobar’s numbers last season was a total outlier from his established minor league career. Carl Crawford just got paid $20mil/year to be what Escobar projects to be.

    Baseball Prospectus, IMO is a better source, but that’s just an opinion.
    Since you have to pay for it to have any knowledge of what they say about prospects we’re talking about, how about you go get me their scouting reports on Cain and Escobar and Montero? :)

    If its their opinion we’ll be trusting, I’d like to know what it is.

  77. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 4:36 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:32 pm
    “Just because you have no response to it does not make it meaningless.”

    Oh, I have a response, I just didn’t want to be so unkind as to point out how stupid it is to take a particular example – one that does not reflect well on the Yanks because they signed Womak due to a complete misjudgment on how close Cano was – to attempt to prove a general rule.

    Very bad example, and very bad logic. Typical, unfortunately.

    ———————————–

    And the Yankees aren’t permitted to make more than one mistake? Perhaps they are as wrong about Montero as they were on Cano. Or perhaps it is like I said, that the Yankees as an organization don’t fancy the idea of starting a rookie catcher for 100 games, want to ease him in and view Martin as an upgrade to Cervelli and Posada having to pick up the slack.

  78. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:36 pm

    jerkface-

    I have no stance on Montero, which is where you are making your mistake.

    My view is that if the Yanks really thought he was going to cut it at C, they either wouldn’t have offered him for 3 months of Lee, or they would have tried to bridge the gap until Montero is ready at C with Posada, Cervelli, or someone who’ll probably be cheap like Zaun.

    But I don’t know that. Nor does anyone, evidently. It just irritates me when everyone goes around dumping on the Royals deal just because they wouldn’t take our guy.

  79. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:37 pm

    “And the Yankees aren’t permitted to make more than one mistake?”

    That wasn’t your original point. Give it up.

  80. 108 stitches December 20th, 2010 at 4:37 pm

    Girardi has done a good job managing the bullpen since ’08 and better than Torre did but the starting pitching staff as it stands now will make it a tough task to do when going beyond C.C. and Hughes and if Andy doesn’t return.
    If the plan is to go with a pat hand, then Cashman is skating on thin ice by waiting for the 7/31 deadline to improve the rotation. No allowance for injuries is a risk. The offense will have to be major contributors toward wins and lengthy losing streaks will come to bite in August – September.

  81. jacksquat December 20th, 2010 at 4:37 pm

    Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
    It does explain why Escobar won’t be as bad as he was.

    Yes, he had a low BABIP and in the article they normalized it and he hit .255. he is still a horrendous offensive player.

    When you chop at the ball like he does, you might have a lower babip. Weakly hit balls are easier to field. So there might not even be any “bad luck”.

  82. DaSaint007 December 20th, 2010 at 4:38 pm

    Well said MG. And welcome back!

    The Yankee system is much improved and actually sought after by other teams. I’m not trading key pieces on the major league roster for a #4 pitcher. Same for key prospects.

    While some here don’t even view Nunez as having any worth on this team, he’s been requested several times as key compenent in many trades that have fallen through.

    His only hinderance is the guy blocking him at SS. And rightfully so – for now anyway.

  83. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:38 pm

    Find me a reliever that will strike out 9+ k/9, walk less than 3 bb/9 and give up no HRs. Thats Joba.

  84. blake December 20th, 2010 at 4:38 pm

    When Montero was offered for Lee he was struggling at the plate and had been disciplined for his attitude earlier in the year….he hadn’t had his monster 2nd half yet.

  85. Carlo December 20th, 2010 at 4:39 pm

    # Chip December 20th, 2010 at 4:34 pm

    Carlo December 20th, 2010 at 4:28 pm
    Chip December 20th, 2010 at 3:58 pm

    Would I do Gardner and Joba for Carmona – probably.

    ———————————————

    I really struggle with this. It opens two holes and may fill one. If there were ways to easily replace gardner with a leadoff hitter with his speed and patience at the plate, then fine…..but i dont see that guy.
    ———————-

    Actually to me it only opens up one hole – LF.

    Gardner’s not a leadoff guy – not for the Yankees – Jeter is. Gardner’s the number 9 hitter. I would replace him by signing Johnny Damon and giving the team a deeper lineup.

    —————-

    This is where we wont agree and it doesnt seem like we will no matter how hard either one of us pushes.

    Simply put, I do not think Jeter belongs in the leadoff spot anymore and i certainly dont think he can be penned in their for the duration of his contract. I also view Damon as a one year stopgap, which will ultimately lead us to having to replace the left field void left by Gardner.

    I think Gardner is a legitimate player who has gotten better as he has gotten seasoned at each level of his development. I can make a very compelling argument that gardner was a better offensive player than Jeter as recently as last year and that his patience at the plate and speed make him a far more suitable leadoff hitter.

  86. Chad Jennings December 20th, 2010 at 4:40 pm

    One small point (and even I’m not sure I agree with this, but here it is):

    To some extent, I often wonder if quantity is just as important as “quality” when it comes to prospects. Maybe not just as important, but perhaps more important than we believe. Think about all of the can’t-miss prospects who missed. All you have to do is look back 10 months to a time when Escobar was considered one of the top prospects in all of baseball, only slightly less valuable than Montero. Now he’s a guy not worth acquiring for a team that has a remarkably deep farm system that had a hole at shortstop?

    Prospects become suspects quickly, and yesterday the Royals got four guys who aren’t expected to become superstars, but all of whom are expected to become big league regulars and could develop into significant players.

    I’m not sure that’s better than having an elite prospect like Montero, but it might be. All of this depends on players living up to expectations, and that doesn’t always happen. Some exceed expectations, and some fall terribly short.

  87. Irreverent Discourse December 20th, 2010 at 4:41 pm

    Carl Crawford batted .300 in the minors, stole less, struck out at the same % and didn’t walk. He was also never ranked higher than 59 on BA. Escobar is 4 years older, sure… but its like the same exact player… and Escobar was as high as 12 on BA.

  88. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 4:41 pm

    It’s seldom that I agree with Jerkface but I have to in this case. Wave is the only one who seems to want to believe that the Martin signing was an indictment on how the Yankees feel about Montero when it has absolutely nothing to do with Montero other than that the Yankees don’t want to force a rookie catcher into a situation where he’s catching 100 games.

    It’s more logical to assume the Martin signing as an indictment on Cervelli than anything else given that the Yankees’s options were either forcing Montero into catching 100 games or signing Martin so that Montero could catch less. Meaning that the Yankees didn’t trust Cervelli to catch the lion’s share of the games.

  89. jacksquat December 20th, 2010 at 4:41 pm

    Chip December 20th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
    Carlo December 20th, 2010 at 4:28 pm
    Chip December 20th, 2010 at 3:58 pm

    Would I do Gardner and Joba for Carmona – probably.

    ———————————————

    I really struggle with this. It opens two holes and may fill one. If there were ways to easily replace gardner with a leadoff hitter with his speed and patience at the plate, then fine…..but i dont see that guy.
    ———————-

    Actually to me it only opens up one hole – LF.

    Gardner’s not a leadoff guy – not for the Yankees – Jeter is. Gardner’s the number 9 hitter. I would replace him by signing Johnny Damon and giving the team a deeper lineup.

    As for the pen – I think Joba could be easily replaced by Romulo Sanchez or some other callup without missing a beat. He doesn’t hold a premium role in the pen and is therefore replaceable.

    Man, you should go check the numbers for Gardner and Damon.

    If you don’t believe in numbers at all, then I guess we won’t have a debate.

    And Gardner is a better leadoff hitter with rhp than Jeter, until Jeter shows the entirety of last season wasn’t just a really bad year.

  90. Carlo December 20th, 2010 at 4:41 pm

    Yes Chad, your 4:40 post hit it right on the head. Quantity trumps quality because of the law of averages and the miss rate on superstar prospects.

  91. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:42 pm

    My view is that if the Yanks really thought he was going to cut it at C, they either wouldn’t have offered him for 3 months of Lee, or they would have tried to bridge the gap until Montero is ready at C with Posada, Cervelli, or someone who’ll probably be cheap like Zaun.

    They are bridging the gap. They signed a catcher who is only under team control for 2 years and is cheap. He only costs 4 million. They aren’t signing a DH so they move Posada there and they weren’t going to start Cervelli full time.

    I really think you’re off base. You’ve been peddling this ‘Yankees hate montero’ or whatever thing since the Martin signing. They were going to sign someone to play there. They were not going to start Cervelli at catcher after last years horrendous 75% of the season.

    And this whole argument spawned from you saying that the Royals weren’t going to start Montero at catcher or that if the royals would the yankees should. I would not trade Montero for Greinke. As much as you probably dislike people dumping on the trade, I dislike people propping it up as if it was any good.

  92. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:43 pm

    blake-

    Coming into 2010 Montero had had 1071 PAs and 257 games at C in the Yankeee system. If the Yanks changed their view of him in 2 months it doesn’t reflect too well on the Yanks.

  93. Irreverent Discourse December 20th, 2010 at 4:44 pm

    Chad – Big Market = Quality, Small Market = Quanitity

    The Larger market teams can afford to pay to fill holes, so they only need to deal with star-studded prospects. The small market teams need to fill multiple holes from within every season, so a larger collection of above average, but not all star prospects is the way to go.

  94. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 4:44 pm

    Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:38 pm
    Find me a reliever that will strike out 9+ k/9, walk less than 3 bb/9 and give up no HRs. Thats Joba.

    —————————

    Aaron Heilman walked .3 more batters per 9 than Joba and gave up .3 more HR than Joba per 9.

    Didn’t strike out as many guys – but still recorded outs.

    Octavio Dotel gave up slightly more HRs but also struck out more guys.

    No, I’m not saying either of these two pitchers are good – just saying Joba ain’t better than them.

  95. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:46 pm

    “You’ve been peddling this ‘Yankees hate montero’

    No I haven’t. I have never said that. I have said that they evidently don’t think he is ready to catch yet, but that’s a far cry from saying that the Yanks hate Montero.

    And I don’t think I started any argument. I think I entered an argument that was already going on.

  96. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:46 pm

    Carl Crawford batted .300 in the minors, stole less, struck out at the same % and didn’t walk. He was also never ranked higher than 59 on BA.

    As you pointed out, Crawford was 4 years younger!! Are you kidding me? 4 years is an eternity in baseball. Especially for prospects. And the scouting reports on Crawford never poo-pooed his offense like they do Escobar.

  97. jacksquat December 20th, 2010 at 4:46 pm

    Cashman offered Montero for Lee, true, but then after the deal fell through he said he felt better that the didn’t lose him. Was quoted on this site, I believe.

  98. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 4:46 pm

    Carlo -

    I didn’t say that Jeter’s a better leadoff hitter than Gardner.

    I just said that Jeter is the leadoff hitter and Gardner’s not.

    I don’t see that changing next year. Girardi’s not going to embarass Jeter by hitting him lower in the lineup than 2nd and the reasons he was moved out of the 2 spot (the double plays) haven’t changed.

  99. G-C December 20th, 2010 at 4:46 pm

    “Didn’t strike out as many guys – but still recorded outs.”

    ________________________________________

    Therein lies the most important component to being a good relief pitcher. In high leverage situations, the ability to miss bats is priority # 1.

    Joba’s ERA is in for a big correction as long as he comes to camp in reasonable shape and ready to go.

  100. blake December 20th, 2010 at 4:47 pm

    Wave,

    He was always a good prospect but the 2nd half he put up in AAA against guys years older than him and the reported improvements he’s made defensively had to increase his stock….just saying

  101. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:47 pm

    “They are bridging the gap. They signed a catcher who is only under team control for 2 years and is cheap.”

    If you have someone who can hit like Montero, 3 months is a gap in my book, not two years. And it certainly remains to be seen whether Martin is cheap or not.

  102. yanks 27 December 20th, 2010 at 4:48 pm

    “So they might as well give the kids in the minors a chance to fill the other two rotation spots. If it means missing the playoffs in 2011, they will miss the playoffs, big deal.”

    Look at how the Yankees reacted to 2008. Yankees are a business. They have a new stadium with expensive seats to fill. YES ratings declined in 2008 as well. The Yankees will not take kindly to missing the playoffs. Also, wasting the latter prime of A-Rod, Rivera, Jorge, Andy, etc. is foolish. Rebuild when they are gone.

    So they might as well give the kids in the minors a chance to fill the other two rotation spots. If it means missing the playoffs in 2011, they will miss the playoffs, big deal. The advantage in doing so, of course, is that the rotation in 2012+, assuming at least one of the kids sticks, is that it is much stronger for the long term.

    “The advantage in doing so, of course, is that the rotation in 2012+, assuming at least one of the kids sticks, is that it is much stronger for the long term. ”

    Same strategy was applied in 2008… and it failed. Not to mention, the real crown jewels of our farm, the killer Bs, are not ready. They will be in AA and on an innings limit. They are hardly the saviors for us. And the Novas, Phelps of the world are stop-gap/trade bait guys. Highly doubtful they will pitch well enough to warrant an extended stay in the rotation.

  103. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 4:49 pm

    Chad’s exactly right –

    For every Buster Posey who comes up and thrives there’s a Ruben Rivera who bombs. So if you’re going to trade a guy like Greinke it is almost better to get 2 guys that you KNOW can play in the show than one guy who might some day be better than both, but has never played in the majors.

  104. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:50 pm

    Aaron Heilman walked .3 more batters per 9 than Joba and gave up .3 more HR than Joba per 9.

    Didn’t strike out as many guys – but still recorded outs.

    Octavio Dotel gave up slightly more HRs but also struck out more guys.

    So he walked more and struck out less? He also gave up more HRs and more hits than Joba. I could predict Joba would improve going forward based on his ability to miss bats. I don’t think I’d do the same for Heilman.

    Octavio Dotel in his career has been a good reliever. LAst year he walked more than Joba, and struck out more, and gave up more HRs. I don’t know if i’d call that a slam dunk.

  105. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:50 pm

    “So if you’re going to trade a guy like Greinke it is almost better to get 2 guys that you KNOW can play in the show than one guy who might some day be better than both, but has never played in the majors.”

    So what are you arguing with me for? Take your allies as you find them. :)

  106. Irreverent Discourse December 20th, 2010 at 4:50 pm

    jerkface – yes but 4 years does not drop escobar from a $20mil/year comparable player to a career minor leaguer. The difference between 20 and 24 is very negligible. He still has 3 years to “get” major league pitching before he hits his prime.

  107. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 4:50 pm

    G-C December 20th, 2010 at 4:46 pm
    “Didn’t strike out as many guys – but still recorded outs.”

    ________________________________________

    Therein lies the most important component to being a good relief pitcher. In high leverage situations, the ability to miss bats is priority # 1.

    Joba’s ERA is in for a big correction as long as he comes to camp in reasonable shape and ready to go.
    ———————–

    Well and therein lies a problem – when was the last time Joba came into camp in reasonable shape and ready to go?

  108. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:51 pm

    If you have someone who can hit like Montero, 3 months is a gap in my book, not two years. And it certainly remains to be seen whether Martin is cheap or not.

    he is cheap! He is being paid 4 million. What the heck? How is he going to get more expensive? Why does Montero have to be the starting catcher? Why can’t he catch 60 games?

  109. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 4:52 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:50 pm
    “So if you’re going to trade a guy like Greinke it is almost better to get 2 guys that you KNOW can play in the show than one guy who might some day be better than both, but has never played in the majors.”

    So what are you arguing with me for? Take your allies as you find them.

    ————————

    My argument with you is based on the silly notion that signing Martin is some indictment of Montero.

  110. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:52 pm

    Greinke it is almost better to get 2 guys that you KNOW can play in the show than one guy who might some day be better than both, but has never played in the majors.

    You have no idea if Escobar can play in the show. His first big league season says no, he can’t.

  111. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:52 pm

    “he is cheap! He is being paid 4 million. What the heck? How is he going to get more expensive?”

    Cheap is defined by price in relation to value.

  112. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 4:53 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:47 pm
    “They are bridging the gap. They signed a catcher who is only under team control for 2 years and is cheap.”

    If you have someone who can hit like Montero, 3 months is a gap in my book, not two years. And it certainly remains to be seen whether Martin is cheap or not.

    ———————–

    Considering he makes $1.5 mil more than the Yankees spent on Jose Molina and is both younger and healthier than Molina – yes, he is quite reasonably priced for a veteran catcher.

  113. yanks 27 December 20th, 2010 at 4:53 pm

    “Why can’t he catch 60 games?”

    Cash/Newman indicated that they would not carry Montero as a backup on the ML roster. Chad had a post on this a couple days ago. So if Martin wins the job, Montero probably goes to AAA.

  114. G-C December 20th, 2010 at 4:54 pm

    The other aspect of this “let the kids pitch” argument being made, especially relative to 2008, is that Nova and Phelps aren’t shells of what Hughes and Kennedy were.

    Those two were arguably 2 of the best 5 under pitching prospects in the game at that point. And both of them, yes Ian included, have developed into good major league starters.

    The way the organization handled Chamberlain and Kennedy is the primary reason why we are in a tiny bit of a tight spot right now. Had they been willing to put the time in with them, they would both be in next year’s rotation and next year’s rotation would essentially be set.

    Ian Kennedy is a legitimate major league pitcher now. Tossed 195 innings of 3.80 ERA ball with 168 strikeouts. He was kind of a strange case in that his command wasn’t and still hasn’t become what it could be. He has near perfect mechanics, very Mussina-like. No doubt in my mind that if he continues to harness those mechanics he could be a legitimate NL front of the rotation starter and a good AL # 3.

    We could use Ian Kennedy right about now.

  115. GreenBeret7 December 20th, 2010 at 4:54 pm

    One more time about the young pitchers in AA and above. None of the pitchers except for Banuelos is on an innings limit below 195 iinnings.

  116. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:55 pm

    jerkface – yes but 4 years does not drop escobar from a $20mil/year comparable player to a career minor leaguer. The difference between 20 and 24 is very negligible. He still has 3 years to “get” major league pitching before he hits his prime.

    As I said, they are not comparable. Crawford never had the kind of low ceiling placed on his offense that Escobar had. And 4 years is huge when talking about a player making it into the majors.

    Crawford jumped a level per year, skipping A+ entirely and actually improved in AAA showing more power at age 20 than Escobar has ever shown.

    You cannot compare them. They are not comparable.

  117. Irreverent Discourse December 20th, 2010 at 4:55 pm

    Wave Your Hat – Cheap is defined by price in relation to value.

    OK… the Yankee’s take in roughly $1billion in revenue every year.

    They are paying Martin 0.5% of that. If he gets a 1 base hit I think they’ll be OK.

  118. G-C December 20th, 2010 at 4:56 pm

    “Well and therein lies a problem – when was the last time Joba came into camp in reasonable shape and ready to go?”

    _________________________________

    Agreed. He hasn’t done it in two years. He was in optimal, optimal shape in 2008. Beast like. Definitely explains the results that we saw that year when he was truly special.

    He can still be a difference maker. I’d love nothing more than to see him step up and really be that guy this year.

  119. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:57 pm

    “My argument with you is based on the silly notion that signing Martin is some indictment of Montero.”

    Signing Martin is a sign that the Yanks don’t intend to catch Montero much in 2011. Which is an indication of where Montero stands today. No indictment in that, only a fanboy would turn that into an indictment.

    My argument with you is that the logic in your Cano example is badly flawed. And that you don’t understand argument. Your real argument is that the Yanks should have done the Greinke deal. I’m ambivalent about it, but I was supporting your point.

  120. G-C December 20th, 2010 at 4:58 pm

    What would Houston want for Wandy Rodriguez?

    For a franchise that’s not really going anywhere, you’d have to think he’d be at least somewhat expendable.

    ~3.30 ERA last 2 seasons combined, misses plenty of bats, left-handed. A bit smallish, but seems like a good fit for Yankee Stadium.

    Sabathia
    Hughes
    Pettitte
    Burnett
    Rodriguez

  121. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:59 pm

    “OK… the Yankee’s take in roughly $1billion in revenue every year. They are paying Martin 0.5% of that. If he gets a 1 base hit I think they’ll be OK.”

    ID-

    Why don’t billionaires spend $1,000 for a loaf of bread?

  122. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 4:59 pm

    Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 4:52 pm
    Greinke it is almost better to get 2 guys that you KNOW can play in the show than one guy who might some day be better than both, but has never played in the majors.

    You have no idea if Escobar can play in the show. His first big league season says no, he can’t.

    ————————-

    Defensively he certainly can and there’s no risk that he’s going to have to move. Most scouts are convinced about Montero’s bat, but still question his ultimate position. If he does remain at catcher – which I believe he will – then yes, he’s a prime bat at a prime position, but if he moves to 1b or DH – then he’s just a prime bat.

  123. Irreverent Discourse December 20th, 2010 at 5:00 pm

    Jerkface – Where is this artificial low cieling on Escobar’s offense? I think you have no idea what Crawfords scouting reports said.

    You can’t get ranked 12 on BA for one skill, and they never expected crawford to be as good as he has become.

  124. 4time December 20th, 2010 at 5:02 pm

    GC,

    Exactly. Hughes and Kennedy were supposed to be big parts of our future. Hughes was the #1 prospect in baseball in 2008. Kennedy was extremely polished, zoomed through the minors in 3 months, and was seen as a guy who was ready for a big league rotation.

    None of these guys that Cash wants ‘competing’ for spots in ST have those pedigrees. Pitching in the small ballparks in the AL East against good lineups is a tall order. Really want to hand that responsibility to rookies who were not highly touted? The Yankees using 2 rotation spots on mid-level rookies is a recipe for disaster.

  125. Irreverent Discourse December 20th, 2010 at 5:03 pm

    WYH – …Because bread doesn’t cost $1000? I would imagine they don’t buy the cheap store brand though.

    No idea what you thought you were saying there.

  126. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 5:03 pm

    Jerkface – Where is this artificial low cieling on Escobar’s offense? I think you have no idea what Crawfords scouting reports said.

    Look at what Crawford did as a 20 year old in AAA, compared to anything Escobar ever did. at age 20 he was in A ball, Crawford was in the Majors.

  127. Chip December 20th, 2010 at 5:04 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 4:57 pm
    “My argument with you is based on the silly notion that signing Martin is some indictment of Montero.”

    Signing Martin is a sign that the Yanks don’t intend to catch Montero much in 2011. Which is an indication of where Montero stands today. No indictment in that, only a fanboy would turn that into an indictment.

    My argument with you is that the logic in your Cano example is badly flawed. And that you don’t understand argument. Your real argument is that the Yanks should have done the Greinke deal. I’m ambivalent about it, but I was supporting your point.

    ————————–

    No, I don’t think the Yankees should have done the Greinke deal.

    I think if Cashman had any doubts about Greinke’s ability to perform in New York then dealing Montero for him would be a bad idea.

    My logic in the Cano/Womack example is simply this: Teams sometimes make errors in judgement and if you are right – that the signing of Martin was related to how they felt about Montero, I was supposing they could be making a similar mistake in this case.

    I don’t feel that’s what they’re doing with Martin – I feel that the Martin signing is a clear indication that they want Jorge DHing 144 times a year and Cervelli in AAA by June.

  128. Captain Clutch December 20th, 2010 at 5:05 pm

    How exciting!!

    Ledger_Yankees Person with knowledge of Pettitte’s thinking puts his chances of a return at 30%. “There is a very real possibility that he will retire.”

  129. West Coast Yankee Fan December 20th, 2010 at 5:05 pm

    I’m sure a Keppinger signing will be announced soon and the off-season will be proclaimed a success by some.

  130. CB December 20th, 2010 at 5:05 pm

    Russell Martin was a 2.1 WAR player last season. And he accumulated that over 387 plate appearances.

    As long as Martin’s hip fracture is ok, then it’s reasonable to assume he’ll be at least a 0.7 WAR player this season and worth the 4M he’s getting paid on a value basis.

    In fact if he’s healthy he’ll likely far out produce 0.7 WAR. Even if he only catches 100 games (or even 80) he’ll likely be worth at least $4M.

  131. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 5:06 pm

    “No idea what you thought you were saying there.”

    My obvious point was that the cheapness of an object is not defined by the income of another object. Cheapness is a quality of the object itself.

  132. Vineyard Yankee December 20th, 2010 at 5:08 pm

    That’s right. There are still those who view Joba as the pumped up flame thrower who had all the hype in 2008.

    The reality is that the Joba of 2010/2011 is nothing more than Aaron Heilman.

    He’s not a starter, not a closer…just a reliever.

    =====================

    Just another reliever is right. He is lucky to be a NYY, its too bad he doesn’t view it that way. If another team wanted him and was gfoing to give some decent value in return I’d deal him right now. Too bad that nobody wants him.

  133. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 5:08 pm

    “As long as Martin’s hip fracture is ok, then it’s reasonable to assume he’ll be at least a 0.7 WAR player this season and worth the 4M he’s getting paid on a value basis. ”

    This is an argument I can buy. OK, chances are Martin could be cheap. Doesn’t affect my analysis of the Yanks’ view of Montero, however.

  134. CCBiggs December 20th, 2010 at 5:09 pm

    What do you think it would take to get Felix Hernandez? A package centered around Montero and Joba (plus a two lesser prospects), no?

  135. Yanks78 December 20th, 2010 at 5:10 pm

    Ledger_Yankees Person with knowledge of Pettitte’s thinking puts his chances of a return at 30%. “There is a very real possibility that he will retire.”

    ————–

    I would imagine that Lee not signing really discouraged him. Cashman did say that Andy wanted them to get Lee badly (before he signed with PHL)

  136. brucevodka December 20th, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    Why still all the Greinke talk? How many times do we have to re-hash this, the man has diagnosed mental problems. There is no upside to that playing in New York. I wish people could bottle Mickey Rivers persona and distribute it. Remember how he would limp to home as if he were hurt, get a walk and immediately steal second. Rizzuto and White used to go nuts over that.

  137. CB December 20th, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    “Doesn’t affect my analysis of the Yanks’ view of Montero, however.”

    I wasn’t referring to Montero nor was I trying to make any kind of point regarding your take on Montero. I was only referring to Martin’s value.

    Seems like a very good deal to me.

  138. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 5:12 pm

    “I think if Cashman had any doubts about Greinke’s ability to perform in New York then dealing Montero for him would be a bad idea.”

    I’m not sold on that as the reason. I think it was simple – the Royals didn’t need what the Yanks were offering, the Royals wanted a premium to do the deal with the Yanks because they really wanted a SS and a CF, and the Yanks didn’t want to pay the premium.

  139. Vineyard Yankee December 20th, 2010 at 5:12 pm

    The sooner Pettitte retires the sooner we can turn the page and move forward.

  140. West Coast Yankee Fan December 20th, 2010 at 5:12 pm

    I see, so if Cliff Lee came to the Yankees and our need for a starter was reduced, Pettitte would be more likely to pitch again.

    But now that Lee is not coming here, Pettitte is less likely to pitch for us.

    So, the inescapable conclusion, if true, would be the more his team and teammates need him the less likely he is to pitch.

    Got it.

  141. BTX December 20th, 2010 at 5:13 pm

    WC – That’s usually how it works.

    “Yanks sign Keppinger! He is a great bench player. Boston has no bench! Thus, Yanks > Boston! Add in Feliciano and we had a great offseason! Burnett will win 20 games!”

  142. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 5:14 pm

    Do you guys mean trade for Keppinger?

  143. Crawdaddy December 20th, 2010 at 5:15 pm

    “One more time about the young pitchers in AA and above. None of the pitchers except for Banuelos is on an innings limit below 195 iinnings.”
    I don’t see Betances going beyond 160 innings when his high in innings pitched has been 123.

  144. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 5:16 pm

    CB-

    It’s not a good deal, whether Martin is “cheap” or not, if it significantly delays the day on which Montero becomes a full time catcher for the Yanks, the way Girardi did Posada.

    And if it means that Montero isn’t a good bet to be a C, which it could mean but also may not mean, then whether it is a good deal or not takes a back seat to the enormous blow it would mean to my view of how good the Yanks can be down the road.

  145. West Coast Yankee Fan December 20th, 2010 at 5:16 pm

    Yes trade for Keppinger. I would guess the Astros signing of Hall makes that likely.

  146. Vineyard Yankee December 20th, 2010 at 5:17 pm

    From MLB Trade Rumors:

    Andy Pettitte is still leaning toward retirement, Yankees GM Brian Cashman told Jack Curry of the YES Network. If that doesn’t change, Curry tweets that the Yankees intend to fill the rotation from within and have low interest in Freddy Garcia/Kevin Millwood types.

    Garcia and or Millwood wouldn’t that be the ultimate joke. Low interest better mean almost non existent. LMAO ! !

  147. Irreverent Discourse December 20th, 2010 at 5:17 pm

    jerkface – I see that Escobar hit more doubles, 3 less triples and 3 less HR’s in AAA while stealing twice as many bases. They walk and strikeout at literally the same rates. Crawfords OBP was worse. Crawford has 100 less PA’s which is why his SLG is so much higher.

    In his first season Crawford batted 40 points under what has become his ML career average. If escobar batted .270 while stealing 40+ bases every year, I don’t think the Royals will be too upset about that.

    I know you are overly enamored with the fact that crawford was 20 and escobar was 24. Lots of players come into the majors at 24 or older… why does it sway the value with you so much? If anything it means that the Royals will be on the hook for less money if they keep Escobar his entire career.

    I think you missed my original point. Crawford was just an example of a player that took this skill-set and turned it into a $20mil/year contract. I’m not expecting Escobar to be Crawford, I’m expecting Escobar to perform at or close to his minor league rates, which are identical to Crawford. You think he’s going to bat .230 and be a total bust. He displays the exact same skill-set and ability that Crawford did in the minors. Crawford just got paid as one of the best players in the majors. How long it takes to come up is a product of too many different factors, including other players in your organization.

  148. Captain Clutch December 20th, 2010 at 5:19 pm

    “The two top starting prospects are lefty Manny Banuelos and righty Dellin Betances, but there are others. The problem is Banuelos threw 100 innings (including winter ball) last season, while Betances threw 95 innings, which would put them on even more severe innings limits than Phil Hughes or Joba Chamberlain in the past.”

    http://espn.go.com/blog/new-yo.....ng-on-mode

  149. BTX December 20th, 2010 at 5:19 pm

    “So, the inescapable conclusion, if true, would be the more his team and teammates need him the less likely he is to pitch.”

    As crazy as that sounds, I do think there is some validity to that.

    At his age and physical condition, I don’t think Andy wants to be a savior. I think he just wants to blend in and try to help his team win a championship.

    In other words, he knows he is not capable of being a #2 and pitching 200 innings and doesn’t want to be put in a position where his team NEEDS him and he has to pitch through pain and not go on the DL (a la 2nd half of 08) and stuff like that. I think he feels he has to nurse his way to Oct and doesn’t want to be a guy that the team is leaning on to be a constant in the rotation.

    I don’t think he is being selfish by thinkin that, he might be merely being realistic about his physical condition and doesn’t want the burden of being a #2 and looked at as a savior, which is what he is now.

  150. Vineyard Yankee December 20th, 2010 at 5:19 pm

    WCYF:

    Keppinger, another piece of garbage to waste prospects on. Leave him in Houston with Pettitte, they can both work the herd together.

  151. GreenBeret7 December 20th, 2010 at 5:20 pm

    I’m a person of knowledge with Pettitte’s thinking and I put Pettitte’s return at 57%.

    How in the hell does somebody come up with 30%? Did they ask Pettitte 10 times and he said he was retiring 7 times?

  152. Sweet Swinging Cano December 20th, 2010 at 5:21 pm

    I don’t believe much of what Cashman is saying. He makes good points but he never lets on 100 percent.

  153. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 5:22 pm

    jerkface – I see that Escobar hit more doubles, 3 less triples and 3 less HR’s in AAA while stealing twice as many bases. They walk and strikeout at literally the same rates. Crawfords OBP was worse. Crawford has 100 less PA’s which is why his SLG is so much higher.

    -

    This is ridiculous. Listen to your argument. First of all SLG does not work that way. Second of all in less PA’s he hit more triples and more HRs? That means more power. Its not like Crawford would take a mulligan for the next 100 PAs. And Crawford got better in each of his first 4 seasons. Escobar already got his feet wet a year ago and then did worse in his full playing time.

    And at the same age Crawford put up an .800 OPS and was on his way to being an elite defender.

    Their minor league numbers are not identical because Crawford put his up at a significantly younger age. How are you missing that? That is why jesus Montero is so good, he is 20 and in AAA.

  154. Sweet Swinging Cano December 20th, 2010 at 5:23 pm

    As far as Andy goes, if he retires I find it hard to believe the Yankees will stay with “internal options”….

  155. Hopdevil December 20th, 2010 at 5:23 pm

    “How in the hell does somebody come up with 30%? Did they ask Pettitte 10 times and he said he was retiring 7 times?”

    Instant classic GB!

  156. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 5:24 pm

    Crawford stole 55 bases his first full year, Escobar stole 10 and got caught 4 times. He had a horrific first major league season. And his offensive potential is already limited by his lack of tools.

  157. randy l. December 20th, 2010 at 5:25 pm

    “Seems like a very good deal to me.”

    cb-

    he passed my eyeball test. i like what i see.

    i watched some game video and of interviews and also looked at basic stats.

    one thing that struck me was that he probably played way too may games over the past 4 years.

    he appears to be the kind of guy who will play if he can walk and that may have worked against him. his hitting the past two years may have been a result of overuse and being banged up.

    if he dropped down to 120 games or so, i think he’d be in better physical shape to hit better.

    mauer never plays 135 games and i think that’s part of the reason he’s so successful. if mauer played 150 games i have a hunch you’d see a drop in offensive production.

    the yankees absolutely needed a catcher who could throw at a 35% throwing out runners rate to slow down CC and ellsbury not to mention other teams that can run.

    martin throws well so i’m looking forward to seeing him play

  158. GreenBeret7 December 20th, 2010 at 5:25 pm

    Captain Clutch December 20th, 2010 at 5:19 pm
    “The two top starting prospects are lefty Manny Banuelos and righty Dellin Betances, but there are others. The problem is Banuelos threw 100 innings (including winter ball) last season, while Betances threw 95 innings, which would put them on even more severe innings limits than Phil Hughes or Joba Chamberlain in the past.”

    http://espn.go.com/blog/new-yo…..ng-on-mode

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    So I made a mistake on Betances. They were far down the list of 2011 call-ups,

  159. RS December 20th, 2010 at 5:25 pm

    Wave,

    It never hurts to have a 27-year old former all-star catcher on your club. If he stinks, they release him. If he plays great and Montero flounders, he becomes a necessity. If Montero shines and the Yankees feel he’s 100% ready to be a big league starting catcher, then Martin becomes a great trade chip. Maybe the Yankees are hoping to get a solid reliever and bench player for him at the deadline. You don’t know that they’re absolutely committed to him for 2 years. Remember, at least some of their interest came from keeping him away from the Red Sox. Now they control where he goes, whether that’s keeping him on their 25-man roster or shipping him to the NL.

  160. Betsy December 20th, 2010 at 5:26 pm

    I forgot about Mitre as an option……it would have to be Mitre and Nova. I can not see the Yankees rushing kids from AA – rushing would be putting it mildly. Cash put himself in this miserable position; it will be interesting to see how he works himself out of it.

  161. CB December 20th, 2010 at 5:26 pm

    “It’s not a good deal, whether Martin is “cheap” or not, if it significantly delays the day on which Montero becomes a full time catcher for the Yanks, the way Girardi did Posada.”

    If this were the case I would agree with it. But I didn’t think that was the point being discussed regarding value. Regardless, if opportunity cost is your concern then Martin’s “value” becomes much more speculative.

    I personally don’t think Martin signing indicates much other than the Yankees wanting to be cautious and decrease their risk at a taxing position.

    I don’t see this as a repeat of the silly way Girardi kept playing when Posada should have been. But of course that’s speculative on my part.

    I just don’t think this deal carries serious negative ramifications for Montero because he is so young. It’s never easy to break in a catcher who is 21 and it rarely happens. Joe Mauer was 22 before he caught his first full season. And he was as good a catchign prospect as the game has seen in decades.

    Part of what made the Girardi/ Posada situation so troubling was Posada’s age.

    To be honest, even at the end of last season, my preference was to keep Montero in the minors for two months or so just to let him start hitting and find his stroke in a comfortable environment, particularly while it’s cold.

  162. Tank December 20th, 2010 at 5:26 pm

    Cashman has no reason to keep publicly saying that Andy is leaning towards retirement… how does that help him at all in his dealings?

  163. blake December 20th, 2010 at 5:27 pm

    How about Phelps? Put him in the mix? I kinda like him

  164. JT December 20th, 2010 at 5:28 pm

    Let the Freddy Garcia era begin!

  165. Crawdaddy December 20th, 2010 at 5:28 pm

    “So I made a mistake on Betances. They were far down the list of 2011 call-ups,”

    Neither is a viable option for 2011, however, in the long-term they are probably the most important pitching prospects at AA or above for the Yankees.

  166. Irreverent Discourse December 20th, 2010 at 5:29 pm

    It’s not a good deal, whether Martin is “cheap” or not, if it significantly delays the day on which Montero becomes a full time catcher for the Yanks, the way Girardi did Posada.

    You seem to be under the impression that Montero is ready to be a full-time major league catcher having no experience with the staff and poor defensive showings in the minor leagues.

    You are the only person that believes this. Pro scouts and major league baseball teams say he is not ready, I’ll believe them.

    There is no reason to have Montero in the majors this season, there is no room for him at DH, he wouldn’t catch more than 40games as the backup stunting his development. He stays in AAA this year and catcher over 100+ games again for only the second time with a single staff. This way his bat doesn’t go stale sitting on the bench playing cheerleader.

  167. Sweet Swinging Cano December 20th, 2010 at 5:29 pm

    Id sooner go with Nova then Garcia. No thanks.

  168. Sweet Swinging Cano December 20th, 2010 at 5:31 pm

    Yes Cash didn’t have a license for that gun he should have put to Lee’s head to sign with the Yankees.

  169. RS December 20th, 2010 at 5:31 pm

    Even if Martin stays the full 2 years, Montero would only be 23 when he’s finally given his shot to be the starting catcher. Do we even want him starting 125 games a year before that? The reason Posada’s been able to last so long is because he didn’t become a full-time catcher until well into his 20′s.

  170. Crawdaddy December 20th, 2010 at 5:31 pm

    “I forgot about Mitre as an option……it would have to be Mitre and Nova. I can not see the Yankees rushing kids from AA – rushing would be putting it mildly. Cash put himself in this miserable position; it will be interesting to see how he works himself out of it.”

    Betsy,

    I have faith in Cashman that he has learned his lesson with Hughes and Joba.

    Secondly, he can’t rush Banuelos and Betances even if didn’t learn his lesson because both young pitchers will be on an innings limit of 150-160 innings.

  171. Vineyard Yankee December 20th, 2010 at 5:32 pm

    Sweet Swinging Cano Chris Young and Webb are still out there. LMASO !
    December 20th, 2010 at 5:23 pm

    As far as Andy goes, if he retires I find it hard to believe the Yankees will stay with “internal options…..

    ========

    Being that all the decent FA’s are gone who will the give the store away to get ? Oh, thats right Garcia, Millwood, Chris Young and Webb are still out there. LMAO !

  172. Sweet Swinging Cano December 20th, 2010 at 5:33 pm

    Chris Young isn’t a bad idea if that is the last resort. I still think Cash has something up his sleeve.

  173. GreenBeret7 December 20th, 2010 at 5:34 pm

    All of what decent free agent starters? There was one.

  174. CB December 20th, 2010 at 5:34 pm

    “one thing that struck me was that he probably played way too may games over the past 4 years.”

    randy,

    I agree. The thing that always impressed me with Martin during his first few years was how athletic he was behind the dish. It clearly separated him from other catchers – both offensively and defensively.

    The biggest change I noticed in him the past two seasons was how much less dynamic he looked, particularly behind the plate. He just wasn’t as active. He almost looked like he was getting old very fast.

    I thought it might be injury and he was breaking down. That still could be the case and his hip is a concern. But I hadn’t realized how many games he was catching under Torre. I was surprised to see that.

    And I do have to say, it’s very strange for an old catcher in Torre to be playing Martin that much.

    Torre himself never caught more than 114 games in a season.

    Sometimes personal experience doesn’t translate into the best of decision making!

  175. Vineyard Yankee December 20th, 2010 at 5:35 pm

    Wow ! Mitre and Nova now there is an original thought. Are those guys new ?

  176. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 5:36 pm

    “You seem to be under the impression that Montero is ready to be a full-time major league catcher having no experience with the staff and poor defensive showings in the minor leagues.”

    I defy you to find one post where I said this. Google is at your command.

  177. Betsy December 20th, 2010 at 5:38 pm

    If Cash rushes Betances or Banuelos, I might have to change my name to Cashman must go part 2

  178. Jerkface December 20th, 2010 at 5:40 pm

    f Cash rushes Betances or Banuelos, I might have to change my name to Cashman must go part 2

    The Dodgers jumped Clayton Kershaw straight to the majors from AA after only 61 innings. He turned out alright.

    Though I think the yankees won’t have any reason to jump either of them past AAA as we have plenty of options in AAA that should be able to pitch well.

  179. Betsy December 20th, 2010 at 5:40 pm

    Craw, true about those kids not being able to be rushed. It’s a shame the Yankees chose to treat their 2 prized prospects like guinea pigs……….I’m down on Cash right now, I admit it.

  180. ZMAN December 20th, 2010 at 5:40 pm

    If I’m Tampa, I reconsider trading Garza and co. for some prospects and tearing it down completely. With the Yanks rotation in the current state it is in, I’d consider taking a shot at the playoffs again and use some of the pitching surplus to get some offensive pieces to try and contend next year.

    With the Yanks having a potential CC-Lee-Andy-Hughes-AJ rotation with Wood-MO in the pen… and Boston making its moves, TB would have had no shot and might as well have gone into rebuilding mode. Now? If I’m them, I consider extending my window. They certainly have the SP to do so, they should use some of their excess and farm to replace their departed offensive players.

    Toronto could have been a big player too if they got Greinke.

  181. Sweet Swinging Cano December 20th, 2010 at 5:40 pm

    They wont be rushed. I really doubt that.

  182. Crawdaddy December 20th, 2010 at 5:41 pm

    “If Cash rushes Betances or Banuelos, I might have to change my name to Cashman must go part 2″

    The way the Yankees use innings limit, I don’t see how Cashman can rush either pitcher in 2011. Betances has never exceeded 122 innings and Banuelos is lower than that number.

  183. Sweet Swinging Cano December 20th, 2010 at 5:42 pm

    I don’t think when things go wrong, it is always because someone is a fool or didn’t do their job.

  184. JT December 20th, 2010 at 5:43 pm

    Id sooner go with Nova then Garcia. No thanks.

    ———

    Make no mistake, they’re gonna need Nova, too. And Mitre. And two or three others to eat up starts at the back end of the rotation.

    Maybe El Duque could make a cameo?

  185. Irreverent Discourse December 20th, 2010 at 5:43 pm

    jerkface – i just don’t see the difference between 20 and 24 to be such a big deal, not to the royals Age is a number that means nothing. Especially to the royals who would be worse off with a better and younger player (having to pay them more money sooner, and little to no change of holding the player their entire career). If escobar was 20 he wouldn’t be any better for the Royals than if he was 24.

    As I said (and you ignored again), Crawford was just an example or a speed player with low contact skills, walk rates, and a high strikeout rate that was not a total bust. He came into the league batting 40 points below his career average over his first 162 games. it will take more than 1 season for Escobar to be a bust.

  186. Betsy December 20th, 2010 at 5:43 pm

    Jerkface, so Kershaw is an exception. Banuelos is 19 years old and missed half the year; it would be beyond ridiculous to push him. Betances has an injury history and could use another full year. Either way, whoever the Yankees go with in slots 4 and 5, it’s a pretty lousy rotation.

    As to Montero/Martin, I never wanted Montero catching practically full time – it’s asking a lot of a kid catcher to lead a staff and produce offensively. This is good for him………for all we know, he may have a horrible spring and be sent to AAA anyway. It was never a foregone conclusion that he was going to make the team.

  187. Crawdaddy December 20th, 2010 at 5:44 pm

    “Craw, true about those kids not being able to be rushed. It’s a shame the Yankees chose to treat their 2 prized prospects like guinea pigs……….I’m down on Cash right now, I admit it.”

    I’m not, this season could be Cashman’s greatest moment with the most opportunity to overcome a difficult situation in which so many are doubting the Yankees.

  188. Vineyard Yankee December 20th, 2010 at 5:45 pm

    Just bring up Banuelos and or Betances now. Bumgarner did fine as a 20 -21 year old. Forget these friggen retreads.

  189. Sweet Swinging Cano December 20th, 2010 at 5:46 pm

    The Yankees were put in a tough spot when they did not get Lee. And I think they knew that. But there is nothing they can do. Teams are in no hurry to help NY. Greinke was dealt to Milwaukee in a deal the Yankees could have matched or better. But teams will not take deals like that from us. They just have to try something else. What is Cashman to do? Some of it is just out of his hands.

  190. Vineyard Yankee December 20th, 2010 at 5:47 pm

    Then again you could just leave these prospects we have at AAA until they are 25 – 26. Then they are sure to be ‘well seasoned’.

  191. CB December 20th, 2010 at 5:48 pm

    “I don’t think when things go wrong, it is always because someone is a fool or didn’t do their job.”

    Very good point. Yankee fans want the club to take the kind of risks needed to try to win the world series every single year.

    When those risks work out – like gambling so much to sign CC – they love the “high risk – high reward” approach to building a team.

    However, when similar high risk endeavors don’t work out – like Lee – it’s not due to the fact that high risk endeavors are inherently uncertain (which is why they are risky to begin with) but because someone is incompetent and is to blame.

  192. yanks 27 December 20th, 2010 at 5:48 pm

    This would be even worse than 2008 because at least in 08, we had 3 highly touted arms who we were excited to follow. Hughes was the #1 prospect in baseball coming off a great September. Joba was an electrifying reliever and zoomed through the minors as a starter. Kennedy was just a solid all-round pitcher, very polished, USC pedigree, put up video game numbers in the minors.

    This year it is Nova, Phelps, Mitre, Warren, and maybe Freddy Garcua? Yikes.

  193. austinmac December 20th, 2010 at 5:48 pm

    Wow GB you must have asked him 100 times. I knew my 4th grade math would pay off. :)

    Have you seen Phelps or Mitchell, and, if so, what are your impressions?

  194. Betsy December 20th, 2010 at 5:51 pm

    Craw, I wouldn’t be surprised if Cash pulled a rabbit out of his hat, but his non-trade for Haren was ridiculous given that Joba and Robertson are not good enough to be set- up men and Nova is mid to back end type starter (Brackman? I have no problem trading him). He’ll probably sign some utter mediocrity like Freddy Garcia. Either way, he’s on his knees praying that Phil improves and AJ works a miracle.

  195. Sweet Swinging Cano December 20th, 2010 at 5:51 pm

    People are mentioning 2008. I don’t see it that way. This is a different team. Not to mention the big guy at the top of the rotation. The Yankees will find a way.

  196. BX33 December 20th, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    When talking about that “high risk” approach, it is interesting that they were so aggressive in pursuing Lee, to the point where they tried 3 times to acquire him using their #1 prospect as a chip… when Cash’s whole philosophy has been not to pay twice, yet he attempted to do just that on 3 different occasions. Yet they were content waiting it out for CC.

    And CC was the one who sent out signals that he wasn’t a big fan of NY and wanted to stay West, yet the vibe from Lee was that he wanted to be a Yankee.

    Just odd the way both cases turned out.

  197. Pat M. December 20th, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    CB….Torre had Martin playing 3rd as a rest day, much like he was handled when he was catching for the Braves…..The Martin signing will have the same reward as the Swisher trade which was hammered here by many……..I still say the Yanks need to determine the cost for Carlos Zambrano….He’s the one guy that could offer a major reward for a low cost in personnel……I’ve spent the past few days looking at video of him once he returned from being exiled, he can still be a very good pitcher…….Getting him out of a dismissal environment and lacing them up for a veteran winning team could make a world of difference….He and Lou Pinella were not made for each other, which was a very volatile situation……At this point it could be worth the roll of the dice……

  198. Sweet Swinging Cano December 20th, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    Betsy: I could see Phil improving. His first full year as a starter was pretty damn solid. He is a talent. I would not be shocked if he got better.

  199. jackamir December 20th, 2010 at 5:53 pm

    If it’s not this year coming it will be the following year. We are a franchise that is slowly eroding and slightly on the decline. Lets see what we got going forward…… Now is the time for our young Pitchers to show more than just promise and potential but professional fortitude. High end free agent pitchers and trades are hard to come by. I think position players can be bought with the big stage proclamation but Pitchers know that the length of their careers is considerably shorter due to injury. Less pressure seems like the way to go.

  200. Sweet Swinging Cano December 20th, 2010 at 5:54 pm

    The thing I worry about with Zambrano is him getting so amped, where he has a Burnett like game in Fenway Park. It might be worth the risk though. His old pitching coach could maybe harness that talent.

  201. Ruby Tuesday December 20th, 2010 at 5:54 pm

    Look at the silver lining — there is always 2012 for us Yankees .

  202. West Coast Yankee Fan December 20th, 2010 at 5:55 pm

    This idea of blaming anyone for Hughes is puzzling. Hughes has been as good as one could want, 18-8 for a number five starter at his age? Come on, he was brought along perfectly. He has a really bright future and no innings limits.

    And Joba too, he has had plenty of chances to prove himself. He will get another one this year.

  203. Ruby Tuesday December 20th, 2010 at 5:55 pm

    ( — although after winning it all in 2011, the World Champion R*d S*x will be favorites to do it again in 2012 . )

  204. Ruby Tuesday December 20th, 2010 at 5:55 pm

    :(

  205. Phranchise December 20th, 2010 at 5:56 pm

    It’s more and more obvious that Cashman will let the youngsters develop further potentially increasing their trade value. Beyond the Sox, their are few really decent teams at the moment that the Yankees offense can’t handle. As long as they can get some decent starts out of Nova and a Freddy Garcia they should be right up there and position themselves perfectly with cash and prospects to be ready for the trade market. Now if that trade market doesn’t really reveal much by then that’s a whole different story.

  206. austinmac December 20th, 2010 at 5:57 pm

    Pat M,

    Fangraphs had Zambrano’s fastball at 90.2 and Rothschild has commented on his diminished velocity. Was he pitching effectively with his fastball or principally with off-speed stuff? I love the idea if his skills are not declining.

  207. Sweet Swinging Cano December 20th, 2010 at 5:57 pm

    I don’t get anyone being hard on Hughes. People are just impatient. If he has a few bad games he becomes public enemy number 1.

  208. Betsy December 20th, 2010 at 5:59 pm

    Cano, I’m not going to get into Hughes, but what I’m saying is that with the current rotation as it is, he has to be better…………..If he’s going to be the #2 pitcher, he has to pitch like one. That’s just how it is because of the rotation………..I also said he’s on his hands and knees praying for an AJ miracle.

  209. Sweet Swinging Cano December 20th, 2010 at 5:59 pm

    Austinmac: That is troublesome. Couldn’t get away with that fastball in the al.

  210. Crawdaddy December 20th, 2010 at 5:59 pm

    “Craw, I wouldn’t be surprised if Cash pulled a rabbit out of his hat, but his non-trade for Haren was ridiculous given that Joba and Robertson are not good enough to be set- up men and Nova is mid to back end type starter (Brackman? I have no problem trading him). He’ll probably sign some utter mediocrity like Freddy Garcia. Either way, he’s on his knees praying that Phil improves and AJ works a miracle.”

    I can’t worry about trades that didn’t happen like Haren.

    Furthermore, I think certain Yankee fans have given up too early on Joba and Robertson. There is little doubt that 2011 will either be the season they make their mark as effective ML pitchers for the Yankees or not. As far as Nova and Brackman, they both deserve the chance to show us what they got and I hope they get that opportunity.

    If the Yankees are ever going to be known for developing ML pitchers then they need to start doing it now. We keep hearing about this great minor league system full of pitching prospects. If that’s true then Cashman and the Yankee organization needs to start cashing in some of those pitching chips in 2011.

  211. BTX December 20th, 2010 at 6:00 pm

    “Look at the silver lining — there is always 2012 for us Yankees .”

    Have you seen the 2011-2012 FA class?

    Unless a stud becomes available via trade (and judging by the Greinke trade, there is always going to be a higher price for us than others) or these B-level arms like Phelps, Nova, Warren, etc. surprise everyone and become highly productive members of the rotation… we will be in this same situation next year.

    Now we know why Cashman was on his knees for Cliff Lee… look at the alternatives…

  212. Phranchise December 20th, 2010 at 6:00 pm

    The Red Sox won’t be winning anything this year so don’t worry about it. Pitching wins championships and Dice K, Beckett and Lackey have a lot to prove this year. Lester is a stud. And Bucholz will have to prove he can do it again. And losing V Mart and Beltre’s offense seems to get lost in all of this. Yes I would take A Gone and Crawford over those two, but it’s not like these guys were added to this team. And if we cry about injuries, it’s a part of baseball. It can happen again. The year the Yankees won, Arod was out for a while, injuries are a part of life.

  213. Wave Your Hat December 20th, 2010 at 6:01 pm

    CB-

    I really wasn’t making a point about Martin’s value. I forgot the basic rule around here, which is stick to your main point because people will bog you down in any detail if they can.

    My main point has been that, for fans, the Yanks’ obtaining Martin should be seen as a disappointment because of the potential implications for Montero.

    This hasn’t gone down too well around here, despite the fact that a month ago you couldn’t post a comment here without reading about how great it was to have Montero come up and catch. Now everyone is fine that he’s not going to.

    Now I have for about a year now been dubious about how soon, or if ever, Montero was going to fill a major league catching role. That position has been unpopular as well, as I’m sure you can imagine.

    To me, Montero needs to play in the majors, and every day his bat is in the minors is a wasted day as far as I’m concerned. Now, if the Yanks want to keep in the minors to avoid a Super 2 status I can understand that, but if it’s longer than that then I don’t understand it. I also believe the Yanks have a tendency to develop their prospects much too slowly.

    The Yanks signing of Martin, while it might make some sense in a vacuum (although you are much higher on Martin than I am), to me indicates that my original doubts as to Montero’s catching ability have some validity, and that my belief as to the Yanks’ reluctance to develop their minor league talent efficiently also has some validity.

    As a fan of the Yanks that makes me very unhappy.

    The subtlety of that position has been somewhat difficult to express and for that I am responsible.

  214. Sweet Swinging Cano December 20th, 2010 at 6:02 pm

    That is right Phranchise. I will let the espn guys going nuts over Boston have their say. There is no gurantee that team wins it all.

  215. austinmac December 20th, 2010 at 6:03 pm

    Hughes threw harder earlier in the season, and I think that helped his early season strike out ability that declined with his fastball velocity.

    I am hopeful his first major league season as a starter will help him develop his stamina and improve that issue.

  216. yanks 27 December 20th, 2010 at 6:04 pm

    “Dice K, Beckett and Lackey have a lot to prove this year”

    How hard could it possibly be for them to outperform Burnett and some combination of Nova, Mitre, Garcia, etc.?

    And who in the AL has a better rotation than them? Tampa, LAA, and Chi Town might have more depth 1-4, but Boston has a much better overall team than those guys.

  217. Sweet Swinging Cano December 20th, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    How do you know the Yankees will even get Garcia?

  218. Phranchise December 20th, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    Isn’t that why there is an innings limit? So young pitchers develop and get stronger to compete thru a full season. Hughes season was simply amazing. People questioned him, called him injury prone, a bust, etc. And yet he comes out last year and gave them a lot. It’s ashame it ended against the Rangers the way it did, but he is going to be a stud here for a long time.

  219. Betsy December 20th, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    Craw, I like Robertson……….Joba? Not so much. We needed Haren and these guys are just relievers, so I would have done it.

    I’m not a fan of Brackman – not sure why, he just doesn’t do it for me. I would have traded him in a heartbeat. It’s fine to say that we need to give the kids a look, but we did that with Joba/Phil and Kennedy. Cash gave up on Kennedy (which I was fine with because I wanted Granderson, but he did give up on him) and they’ve ruined Joba as a starter (though I’m no fan of his, I still think it’s ridiculuous that they’ve relegated him to the pen after 1 year that really wasn’t that bad). They have a long way to go to rectify the mistakes they’ve made with Joba/Phil/Ian.

  220. Crawdaddy December 20th, 2010 at 6:06 pm

    “That is right Phranchise. I will let the espn guys going nuts over Boston have their say. There is no gurantee that team wins it all.”

    You still have to play the season. Not many so-called baseball experts correctly predicted the Rangers playing the Giants in the 2010 WS.

    For some Yankee fans it looks bleak in their 2011 forecast, but a lot can happen in the next 10-11 months and anything is possible especially with a team with the Yankees resources, both financially and minor league system-wise.

  221. CB December 20th, 2010 at 6:06 pm

    “Torre had Martin playing 3rd as a rest day, much like he was handled when he was catching for the Braves….”

    Pat M.-

    I know that was Torre’s plan but he didn’t stick to it very well.

    In 2007 Martin caught 145 games. In 2008, Torre’s first season in LA, he didn’t give him a break at all. Martin caught 149 games and played 3b 11 times. In 2009 he then caught 137 games and played only 1 game at 3b.

    In 2010 he appeared in 97 games. In 93 of those he caught. No games played at 3b.

    That is an enormous number of games caught. Torre himself never came close to catching that kind of workload.

  222. LGY December 20th, 2010 at 6:06 pm

    Yikes, a lot going on in this thread. Don’t even know where to jump in :)

    Chip,

    I think the reason you get blasted for a lot of your trades involving Gardner is that you severely underestimate how good and how valuable he was last season.

    He was not just some gritty player. He was legitimately very good. Not very good for some small gritty guy. Not very good for some just fast player. But simply a very good baseball player.

    He had a great OBP, was an elite base stealer, and played absolutely spectacular defense. What he brought to the team last year is not something to be taken lightly.

    Additionally, in terms of this team and in this stadium he is particularly valuable. His defense is even more important because of how big LF is in YS. There is a huge difference in value when you are throwing Brett Gardner in that LF and Johnny Damon. Also, the Yankees have a CF that may be a platoon player. With Granderson on the team you are probably always going to need a good backup CF. With Gardner around it gives you a lot of flexibility because he can just shift right over to CF. That flexibility is really beneficial. Not many teams have 2 legitimate CF on their team.

    I really think your perspective on Gardner is way off. I remember searching around some Braves blogs to see if I could find anything on Jair Jurrjens, because I thought he may be a trade target. The blog had a post on him and one poster suggested Gardner for Jurrjens. Almost all the posters on that blog were thrilled with that idea.

    Brett Gardner is a legitimately good baseball player. Not just some throw in in a trade you seem to view him as.

  223. Sweet Swinging Cano December 20th, 2010 at 6:07 pm

    As far as I am concerned there is no mistake involved with Hughes. Joba on the other hand? I think that injury in 2008 really messed him up. He was a very good sp that season. People forget that. I wouldn’t give up on him though.

  224. Joe from Long Island December 20th, 2010 at 6:09 pm

    Pat M. has brought up a good point – Carlos Zambrano might benefit from a change of scenery. Or not. This is where you rely on Rothschild. Not getting along with Lou Piniella is not a crime. Just ask Paul O’Neill. Come to think of it, he had a fiery personality, also.

    And it would primarily cost just money.

  225. Sweet Swinging Cano December 20th, 2010 at 6:09 pm

    Crawdaddy:

    That is why I never panic. I always try to put things in perspective. Baseball is a funny game.

  226. Irreverent Discourse December 20th, 2010 at 6:10 pm

    WYH – The disconnect is here.

    obtaining Martin should be seen as a disappointment because of the potential implications for Montero.</i
    and
    Montero needs to play in the majors, and every day his bat is in the minors is a wasted day as far as I’m concerned.

    Montero’s bat has nothing to do with why he is still on the Yankees. If he was just a bat they would have traded him a long time ago for a lot less than the best pitcher in the league.

    Montero’s only value to the Yankees is as a catcher.

    There is absolutely no indication that Montero is ready to catch in the majors. He still has a TON to work on judging by his AAA season last year. How is catching 30-40games in the majors and not DH’ing going to help his development?

    I would not view the Martin signing with disappointment, I think its great because Montero is clearly not ready yet. Disappointment would be rolilng out there wil Cervelli as the full-time catcher, or Montero coming up and clearly not being ready to catch int he majors (this would kill his value to the yankees as well as any trade value).

    In 2012 when Posada is gone, there will be plenty of DH time to get Montero’s bat in the lineup full-time and have him catch 40-50games.

  227. Crawdaddy December 20th, 2010 at 6:12 pm

    Craw, I like Robertson……….Joba? Not so much. We needed Haren and these guys are just relievers, so I would have done it.

    I’m not a fan of Brackman – not sure why, he just doesn’t do it for me. I would have traded him in a heartbeat.”

    Haren isn’t a Yankee, no reason to keep crying over spilt milk.

    Robertson and Joba are Yankees and this is their chance to step up to the challenge and realize their pitching talent.

    As far as Brackman, we haven’t seen him pitch so I’m going to give him a fair chance to show his pitching ware.

  228. Irreverent Discourse December 20th, 2010 at 6:14 pm

    uhg, second missed tag… i’m done for the day.

  229. West Coast Yankee Fan December 20th, 2010 at 6:15 pm

    There was no mistake made with Phil Hughes. That is just an indefensible position. He was handled perfectly, they watched his innings and he is developing about as well as one could expect from a pitcher his age in the AL East.

  230. GreenBeret7 December 20th, 2010 at 6:15 pm

    austinmac December 20th, 2010 at 5:48 pm
    Wow GB you must have asked him 100 times. I knew my 4th grade math would pay off.

    Have you seen Phelps or Mitchell, and, if so, what are your impressions?

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    Hey, Mac. hope all is well in Austin. Since you’re so close, just make a quick run down 290 and see andy. Tell him that the mass suicides are on his head if he doesn’t make up his mind by tomorrow.

    I prefer Phelps, but, Mitchell is about a #5 pitcher in NYY. In reality, he’s a long man or trade bait once NYYs straighten out the other kids. Phelps is a 3 or 4 with experience. He’s good, not great, butm he knows how to win.

  231. joeman December 20th, 2010 at 6:15 pm

    Brewers..50/1 to win NL Pennant
    Brewers..100/1 to win WS

    Nice starting rotation

    Grienke
    Gallardo
    Marcum
    Wolf

    Closer
    Axford

    OF
    Braun
    Hart
    Gomez

    IF..
    Fielder
    Weeks
    McGehee
    Bentancourt

  232. jacksquat December 20th, 2010 at 6:15 pm

    Pat M. December 20th, 2010 at 5:52 pm
    I still say the Yanks need to determine the cost for Carlos Zambrano….He’s the one guy that could offer a major reward for a low cost in personnel……I’ve spent the past few days looking at video of him once he returned from being exiled, he can still be a very good pitcher…….

    From what I read, Z’s results after his “return” far exceeded his peripherals, which weren’t good.

  233. jackamir December 20th, 2010 at 6:16 pm

    It’s King Felix or nothing. They will move him sometime before the trading deadline and that’s when Cashman will pounce. He is the only Pitcher worth going after. He is the only Pitcher in the sport that is built for New York…….

  234. Betsy December 20th, 2010 at 6:18 pm

    WC, you can think it’s indefensible, it doesn’t change my opinion that the Yankees rushed Phil and hardly handled him like a prized prospect. In any case, what’s done is done.

  235. Betsy December 20th, 2010 at 6:19 pm

    Craw, obviously there’s nothing to be done now, but you always trade relievers for starters. Cash’s decision is coming back to bite us……..Oh well.

  236. joeman December 20th, 2010 at 6:19 pm

    a staff of

    CC
    Big Z
    Hughes
    AJ
    Andy ???

    would be a good one,right there or better than Bos

  237. Irreverent Discourse December 20th, 2010 at 6:20 pm

    betsy – how was he rushed? he was pitching well… was in the middle of throwing a no hitter and got hurt…

  238. Captain Clutch December 20th, 2010 at 6:20 pm

    Cash said the other day that the price to trade for a starting pitcher is “high”. I wonder if “high” means teams are asking for Montero or since Cash overvalues every prospect is high Nunez, Nova and the lower tier guys? It seems that whatever a team asks for Cash always thinks it’s too much. You can guarantee if Theo, Dombrowski or the W.Sox gm were in this spot they would have a decent pitcher on their team by spring training.

  239. Betsy December 20th, 2010 at 6:22 pm

    ID, just because he was throwing a no-hitter doesn’t mean he wasn’t rushed. Cash said that we weren’t going to see Phil up in NY until at least September of 2007. Yes, I am well aware of the injuries to our rotation, but he was still rushed because he wasn’t supposed to be up here.

  240. CB December 20th, 2010 at 6:22 pm

    Wave-

    Thanks for clarifying. I was picking things up mid discussion and you know how that goes.

    I can see your point regarding not having Montero’s upside in an aging line up and instead substituting Martin in there.

    I guess for me I just think he’s so young still. I was hoping that he’d get a mid season call up but wasn’t expecting more than that.

    I was surprised to see the yankees talk about him as the starting catcher to begin 2011.

    So for me, he’s still more or less on track. I guess that’s where we diverge. I don’t think him being in the minors for even half a season in 2010 is necessarily a bad thing.

    I like Martin because playing Cervelli huge innings is a complete drain on the team’s ability to win.

    I think you may be expecting too much too soon in terms of playing time.

    Montero just turned 21. His birthday is in October, IIRC.

    Yoggi Berra didn’t catch his first full season in the majors until 23. Joe Mauer didn’t catch his first full season in the majors until 22. Bill D-i-c-k-e-y didn’t catch his first full season until age 22. Piazza – age 24. Carlton Fisk – 24.

    The only exception I can think of of a great catcher coming up and catching full time before the age of 22 is Johnny Bench. He caught full time at the age of 20.

    I think Montero is progressing ok. He’s going to wind up somewhere between Bench and Mauer in terms of playing time.

    I do think he’s going to get called up and play a lot this season at both catcher and DH.

  241. randy l. December 20th, 2010 at 6:22 pm

    cb-

    if mauer caught 149 games, what do you think that would do to his offensive production?

    it’s not like he’d have the same stats and then be worse the last 20 games.

    i think he’d probably start having lower offensive stats after the first month of catching almost every game. after three to four months he’d likely be scuffling big time. its just not a wise thing to do with an offensive catcher.

    to keep an offensive catcher hitting well, i think you need to rest him because a catcher is going to get banged up. it goes with the job.

  242. Betsy December 20th, 2010 at 6:22 pm

    Cash does seem to be overvaluing Nunez……..

  243. hardwired7 December 20th, 2010 at 6:23 pm

    No Gaudin, no HR Javy, no Kearns and sorry to all the PFOF’ers but no Cervelli either.

    Classic addition by subtraction right there.

  244. GreenBeret7 December 20th, 2010 at 6:24 pm

    Betsy, is there anybody on the Yankees that you do like? Major and Minor Leagues?

  245. joeman December 20th, 2010 at 6:24 pm

    I have been lobbying for Big Z for over a week now whats the hold up

  246. joeman December 20th, 2010 at 6:26 pm

    # hardwired7 December 20th, 2010 at 6:23 pm

    No Gaudin, no HR Javy, no Kearns and sorry to all the PFOF’ers but no Cervelli either.

    Classic addition by subtraction right there.
    —————————
    don’t forget that other stiff..Berkman

  247. Pat M. December 20th, 2010 at 6:28 pm

    CB……The mistake that Torre might have made with Martin was when he was given the day off, Joe called upon him later in the game……Martin started 143, 138, 133 in years 07,08,09….Then again he was needed if the Dodgers were to be playing in October which they did…..Betsy, remember Ivan Nova was the agreed upon Yankee starter in that aborted Arizona trade…….Had things not gone off track, the Yanks rotation in 2011 would have been, CC, Wang, Hughes, Joba & Burnett……..Brackman has an arm that may translate into something quite impressive when he hits the bigs…..

  248. Jerzz December 20th, 2010 at 6:28 pm

    Clutch,

    Sherman alluded to that in one of his columns… how he gets the sense from talking to Yankee officials that they have started to overvalue their own prospects. I mean, if the Haren trade was legit, that is proof right there.

    Not a good sign moving forward, considering the FA class is bare next year, and the only way for us to improve the rotation is via trade.

  249. Jerzz December 20th, 2010 at 6:30 pm

    joeman – That rotation is certainly better than the one we have right now. At this point, I take Big Z over any of these other options (Garcia, Milwood, or Nova/Phelps/Mitre)

  250. blake December 20th, 2010 at 6:30 pm

    I think the Martin signing is more about having a guy around that can catch the bulk of the innings if they need him to and throw runners out.

    Cervelli simply isn’t good enough to catch every day, Posada is too old to catch every day, and Montero has never caught an inning in the big leagues. That’s just too much maybes to start the season with.

  251. UpState December 20th, 2010 at 6:31 pm

    “…that aborted Arizona trade…”

    Forgot what that was…..anyone to fill-in details ???

  252. joeman December 20th, 2010 at 6:31 pm

    # Jerzz December 20th, 2010 at 6:30 pm

    joeman – That rotation is certainly better than the one we have right now. At this point, I take Big Z over any of these other options (Garcia, Milwood, or Nova/Phelps/Mitre)
    —————————————-
    Z would be the #2 SP on this team…all those other guys are long relief pitchers

  253. GreenBeret7 December 20th, 2010 at 6:32 pm

    Pat M., makes you wonder how Jim Sundberg was able to catch/start in 145 to 150 games a year in that Texas heat. He could have been so much better without that workload.

  254. West Coast Yankee Fan December 20th, 2010 at 6:34 pm

    Betsy, Hughes started in the minors in 2004 when he was 18 years old. In 2005 he pitched at Charleston and Tampa. In 2006 he pitched in Trenton and Tampa. In 2007 he pitched at Tampa, Trenton and Scranton Wilkes-Barre — and spent time at Scranton Wilkes-Barre in 2008 and 2009. He only appeared in 13 and 8 games in 2007 and 2008 with the Yankees.

    He was 31-8 in the minor leagues, and pitched 330 innings in 65 games.

    How the heck is that rushing him?

  255. CB December 20th, 2010 at 6:34 pm

    “if mauer caught 149 games, what do you think that would do to his offensive production?”

    randy-

    That’s a difficult thing to estimate as you know given how prone catching is to random injuries that can impact hitting. Foul tips to the hands/ wrists/ feet are just so common.

    It would clearly have an impact. And I think the most telling thing there is the way the Twins use him. They clearly have a games catching target in mind. They protect his playing time because they believe it will impact his hitting. You can tell by the way they use him.

    And the thing with Martin isn’t only his single games caught number. It’s his cumulative games caught between 2007-2010.

    You’d gave a better sense of this than I would – what impact would it have on a catcher to catch over 90% of all the games he’s ellgible to play in?

    I’m not sure what the Dodgers were doing there.

  256. Captain Clutch December 20th, 2010 at 6:36 pm

    So basically Torre treated Martin like a relief pitcher…He can join the group of Sturtzy, Vizcaino and Quantrill.

  257. Yank1 December 20th, 2010 at 6:36 pm

    Boy, the producers of YES Hot Stove must be thrilled… they have to waste valuable time/money to create a show to talk about Freddy Garcia and Pedro Feliciano. If I’m them, I save some money and scrap the show… it is clear there will be nothing significant to discuss this winter.

  258. Pat M. December 20th, 2010 at 6:37 pm

    GB…..Agree about Sundberg…..That was the golden age of catching….Bench, Munson, Fiske, Boone, Sundberg….I know I’m leaving out some other very good catchers…….In those days off days were rare…….

  259. joeman December 20th, 2010 at 6:38 pm

    if Z is available I think they should go get him.or at least see what they want for him

    116-74..30 year old SP

  260. CB December 20th, 2010 at 6:40 pm

    One other thing I really like about the Martin signing. He’s still under team control due to service time for another two seasons.

    If he has a good season this year, this will allow them to trade Martin next winter and get a good return.

  261. GreenBeret7 December 20th, 2010 at 6:40 pm

    Pat,

    Randy Hundley was another one that was burned early from that time. Earlier was Freehan

  262. blake December 20th, 2010 at 6:42 pm

    Hughes wasn’t really rushed….he signed out of high school and went through the progressions in the minors and destroyed them. He came up to the big leagues and got hurt and went through some struggles….thems the breaks. Hughes really had nothing left to learn in the minors

  263. blake December 20th, 2010 at 6:43 pm

    CB,

    great point. If Martin comes back strong this season and Montero is ready to take the reigns next year then they suddenly either have a great trade chip on their hands…

  264. DocTodd December 20th, 2010 at 6:43 pm

    We better pray that some of these minor league pitchers, and Montero pan out….the trade market stinks, and teams are looking to rake the Yankees over the coals big time…..it would be nice if one of the killer Bs and or Montero really turned out to be something special, like Cano…

  265. EA December 20th, 2010 at 6:44 pm

    Cashman is operating under the assumption that Andy Pettitte, back home in Deer, Park, Texas, following a an excellent season cut short by a groin injury, will not be returning for a 17th major league season.

    “If we get Pettitte back, so much the better,” Cashman said. “But I’m not waiting for him. He told me not to.”

    http://sports.espn.go.com/new-.....id=5938789

  266. DocTodd December 20th, 2010 at 6:45 pm

    I heard they are thinking of changing the name from Yankees Hot Stove to Yankees Cold Fridge..

  267. GreenBeret7 December 20th, 2010 at 6:46 pm

    Out of the top 10 pitchers in the system, only about 4 will make much of a mark. NYY just needs to pick the right 4.

  268. Carl December 20th, 2010 at 6:47 pm

    # DocTodd December 20th, 2010 at 6:45 pm

    I heard they are thinking of changing the name from Yankees Hot Stove to Yankees Cold Fridge..

    Just stop.

  269. Pat M. December 20th, 2010 at 6:47 pm

    CB……I see your point clearly about Martin being behind the plate too much….Torre was about winning and get the Dodgers back into the Postseason after over a 10 year drought……Scully would make note to that fact but always mention that Torre was determined to get the Dodgers back to winning, and then Vinny would go on a history lesson about Campy , Roseboro and all the old time great catchers……Yankee fans are going to love Russel Martin…He’s a throw back type catcher……He controls the game, the pitchers and the running game…..

  270. DocTodd December 20th, 2010 at 6:47 pm

    Agree, Cash is overvaluing Nunie…

  271. Carl December 20th, 2010 at 6:49 pm

    Is Betsy around?

  272. UpState December 20th, 2010 at 6:49 pm

    Who was NOVA supposed to be traded for from Arizona ???

  273. EA December 20th, 2010 at 6:53 pm

    “I heard they are thinking of changing the name from Yankees Hot Stove to Yankees Cold Fridge..”

    lol, that would be more apt description of our activity.

  274. GreenBeret7 December 20th, 2010 at 6:54 pm

    Martin, if he stays healthy could help be a good teacher for Montero. It will take a lot for a player to train his successor, though. Montero would be better off starting in NY. He’ll get his at bats (about 350 or so), and as of now would be familiar with two of the starters, having caught them in Scranton. That will most likely change, but, let him catch 45-60 games with those and/or hughes. Sabathia and Burnett won’t be the easiest to catch for a young catcher. Their pitches move too much. If he hits in ST, his bat will be needed.

  275. EA December 20th, 2010 at 6:54 pm

    “Who was NOVA supposed to be traded for from Arizona ???”

    Haren

  276. Pat M. December 20th, 2010 at 6:54 pm

    Upstate……Nova was the agreed upon starting pitcher the Yanks were going to send to Arizona along with Chabmerlain for Dan Haren……Arizona asked to substitute either Brackman or Robertson as the releiver….Cashman didn’t get back to them or declined the request….Then right before midnight they made the deal for Joe Saunders of The Angels…..

  277. blake December 20th, 2010 at 6:55 pm

    If Pettite does retire (which I still don’t think he will) and the Yankees do go with 2 youngsters in the rotation, would it be wise to then pursue Soriano and pay him what it’ll take to bring him to NY.

    They would have to overpay but they’d basically just be giving him Pettite’s money. A lockdown bullpen could certainly help a thin rotation out and the Yankees will have 20+ million coming off the books next year……if nothing is truly out there via trade then that might be the best way left to significantly improve the team.

  278. Captain Clutch December 20th, 2010 at 6:55 pm

    Cash does seem to be overvaluing Nunez……..
    —————

    The funny thing is Nunez doesn’t have a future on this team and never did. Eventually he will be a included in a deal but when he has a lot less value than he does now.

  279. UpState December 20th, 2010 at 6:57 pm

    EA & Pat M.

    Thank you !!!

  280. LGY December 20th, 2010 at 6:59 pm

    How is Cashman overvaluing Nunez?

  281. GreenBeret7 December 20th, 2010 at 6:59 pm

    Nunez could easily become the latest version of Ramdy Velarde. He will learn to play the outfield and he’s a Hell of a lot better hitter than some of you give him credit for.

  282. blake December 20th, 2010 at 7:00 pm

    Pat M,

    If that’s true then I’m still trying to figure out why the trigger wasn’t pulled on that. I like Robertson and Brackman but that price isn’t excessive IMO…pretty fair from both sides. Haren couldn’t have helped them last year and this and would have been insurance in case they didn’t get Cliff Lee….which they didn’t.

  283. GreenBeret7 December 20th, 2010 at 7:01 pm

    ***Randy*** Velarde

  284. Pat M. December 20th, 2010 at 7:02 pm

    LGY……I also like Nova….Blake, once the Yanks lost out on Lee that’s exactly what I thought Cashman would do, build a tight and lock down bullpen……Very puzzling strategy this winter

  285. UpState December 20th, 2010 at 7:02 pm

    ….and Joe Saunders wasn’t a big prize for Arizona either

  286. EA December 20th, 2010 at 7:04 pm

    “if nothing is truly out there via trade then that might be the best way left to significantly improve the team.”

    Absolutely. I wanted them to do that anyway, even if Andy came back.

    If their forced to go with 2 rookies in the rotation (or Garcia/Mitre types), then the pen is going to be needed A LOT. So the best strategy is to beef up the pen and try to shorten games.

    Man, we went from a potential super-rotation to this…

  287. blake December 20th, 2010 at 7:04 pm

    Pat M,

    If you can’t have what you want in the rotation then the next best thing is a great pen. They would have to pay Soriano well and maybe give him 1 more year than everyone else but he may be the best bet to a real improvement with the team. If Pettite retires and nothing else can be worked out then his money has to go somewhere….

  288. UpState December 20th, 2010 at 7:07 pm

    BULLPEN :

    What about trying to work out a trade for some bullpen help from San Diego ?
    Realize its the NL West.
    Realize Hoyer probably would only want to help the Red Sox.
    But….Sign Derrick Lee for the $8.0 mil & trade to SD….
    Any thoughts on chance of getting any of these guys ?
    Worth it ?
    Mike Adams (32)
    Tim Stauffer (29)
    Joe Thatcher (29)
    Luke Gregerson (27)
    Ed Mujica (27)
    …any other workable parts that SD may need/want to cast off that we could use ???

    Chip may be able to evaluate this idea.

    (repost from afternoon)

  289. Pat M. December 20th, 2010 at 7:09 pm

    Blake good question……..Brackman is going to be a beast when he hits the scene so I can understand him being held back, Robertson is either very good, occasionally bad and iffy at times……Haren pitched very well for the Halos after a week or so…..Yanks could have used him last August / September and then October…..The big payoff of course is penciling him into the rotation right now…….It’s almost as if Cashman was ordered by the Front Office to get Lee, and now that he’s in Philly Cashman is bent on doing things his way….By building from within which is great except for the Alex, Jeter, Rivera window is starting to close and time is not a luxury when you look at Toronto and Baltimore gaining ground……

  290. Yanks78 December 20th, 2010 at 7:10 pm

    “once the Yanks lost out on Lee that’s exactly what I thought Cashman would do, build a tight and lock down bullpen……Very puzzling strategy this winter”

    Same here, it seemed logical that they would try and use that $$ to create a lockdown pen to shorten games. Especially when there were several good relievers out there.

    Still trying to figure out Cash’s plan B…

  291. LGY December 20th, 2010 at 7:13 pm

    Post ASB Joba had a 2.88 ERA, struck out 37 in 34 innings, only walked 8, and held opponents to a .220 BA.

    Joba had a rough go at it the first half of the season, but turned it around in the 2nd half (granted in lower leverage situations than in the first half)

    He is extremely talented and if Joba doesn’t harness his ability and take hold of the 8th inning next season, I would be disappointed.

    I think he can get back on track to being that future closer type and I think he will in 2011.

  292. blake December 20th, 2010 at 7:14 pm

    Pat M,

    totally agree. I would have been hesitant about Brackman as well (but he is fairly old for a guy in AA, he’s actually older than Hughes is) and I like Robertson as well but if they could have traded Nova and Robertson for Haren and didn’t then I just don’t get that at all. The window is closing and it would have given them an alternative to Lee. Had they signed Lee and Pettite wanted to return then the Yanks could have traded Haren for a hefty return in this pitching thin market.

  293. randy l. December 20th, 2010 at 7:16 pm

    cb-

    it seems that there are a lot of rules about innings pitched for a pitcher, but not many for catchers.

    it wouldn’t be a bad idea to get some quantification on what happens to catcher’s hitting after catching so many games in a row.i would say 120 games is an ideal number to catch for offensive performance. anything above 140 is too much.

    it takes a certain mentality to like catching and a catcher has to have a high pain threshold. when i was playing semi pro ball on cape cod one summer an errant throw from the other team broke the thumb on my glove hand during warm ups.

    i told the manager i broke it and he said to play first thinking i was kidding and just wanted to play first like i did sometimes. so i played first for the next 6 weeks when he came to me one day and told me that i didn’t look like my normal self hitting even though i still was hitting over .300. he said that he wanted more home runs out of me.

    i explained that it was kind of hard to hit home runs when i could only grip with my right hand. he totally has no idea i really had a broken hand. but that’s a catching mentality. you just keep going until someone takes you out.

    it’s on an obviously much higher level, but i think russel martin likely had something physically wrong enough that he had to alter his swing to keep playing as many games as he played. that’s what catchers do. the manager really is the one who has to sit the catcher, because the catcher isn’t going to sit himself.

    if girardi uses him right ( and i think he knows as much about catching as anyone), i think martin will have a rebound in hitting closer to his good years.

  294. Drive 4-6 December 20th, 2010 at 7:16 pm

    I like the Martin signing a lot. Same for Feliciano. But this sin’t the same team that won 95 games last year. They are a year older, have a weaker bench and less pitching. It should make for an interesting year to say the least.

    The Padres Chris Young might be a decent arm to pick up on the cheap.

  295. Vineyard Yankee December 20th, 2010 at 8:39 pm

    WCYF:

    ‘And Joba too, he has had plenty of chances to prove himself. He will get another one this year’.

    ======================

    Your joking right ? ? Prove himself doing what ? ? ‘Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life’.

  296. Against All Odds December 20th, 2010 at 9:56 pm

    # LGY December 20th, 2010 at 7:13 pm

    Post ASB Joba had a 2.88 ERA, struck out 37 in 34 innings, only walked 8, and held opponents to a .220 BA.

    Joba had a rough go at it the first half of the season, but turned it around in the 2nd half (granted in lower leverage situations than in the first half)

    He is extremely talented and if Joba doesn’t harness his ability and take hold of the 8th inning next season, I would be disappointed.

    I think he can get back on track to being that future closer type and I think he will in 2011.
    ——————————————–

    I’d rather see him get traded. They couldn’t trust him last yr and now they are putting the same eggs in his basket again

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