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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Quiet days and long nights

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 21, 2010 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

One year ago, December 21 began as fairly routine offseason day. It had been a week since the Roy Halladay trade to the Phillies, and believe it or not, it was somewhat blogworthy news that Jason Marquis had signed with the Nationals. The Yankees were known to be looking for back-of-the-rotation help, and Marquis seemed to be an extremely remote possibility.

It was a day like any other, but by the end of it, there was chaos.

I’m sure you remember it well: It started with vague reports that the Yankees were working on a trade for a starter. Problem was, no one seemed to know the name of the pitcher or even the name of the other team. There was wild speculation until at last Javier Vazquez’s name emerged.

What I remember about that night is that I had moved to New York a little more than a month earlier, and I’d left a lot of friends behind. When all was quiet into the late afternoon, I decided to make a late trip to Scranton to see everyone.

The timing, as you can imagine, could not have been worse.

The lesson, as you can guess, was rather simple: Even on the quiet days, there’s always a chance the Yankees are ready to make some noise.

 
 

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240 Responses to “Quiet days and long nights”

  1. MTU December 21st, 2010 at 8:57 am

    Whatever you say Chad.

    It certainly would be a welcome surprise.

    :)

  2. MTU December 21st, 2010 at 9:06 am

    Hey Cash.

    Next time you decide to go Skydiving, instead of Rappelling, make sure you bring a reserve chute so when you pull that ripchord and your main fails you don’t just go splat.

    ;)

  3. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 9:10 am

    Good Luck Cashman !!

  4. blake December 21st, 2010 at 9:17 am

    Warning! Putting on my hair brained pretend GM cap because im bored:

    Trade Gardner straight up for Jair Juirjins.
    Call up good buddy Kevin Towers and make it happen for Justin Upton
    Sign Pettite
    Sign Rauch

    Best team in AL. See there’s still hope…….in fantasyland.

  5. Erin December 21st, 2010 at 9:17 am

    Cashman still has a few days left to put a present under the tree. ;)

  6. AldotheApache December 21st, 2010 at 9:17 am

    Hey, Pat!

    Your 8:54 post on the previous thread, “What Cashman seems to have grasped …”?

    Makes WAY too much sense!!!

  7. randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 9:19 am

    http://yankees.lhblogs.com/200.....omecoming/

    last year’s javier vazquez trade

  8. AldotheApache December 21st, 2010 at 9:20 am

    Interesting concepts!

    Not every MLB wants to play for the Yankees …

    Not every GM wants to trade their player(s) to the Yankees just cause they’re needed here …

  9. Doreen December 21st, 2010 at 9:21 am

    pat -

    Loved, loved, loved your post in the last thread.

    Unfortunately, you’re either preaching to the choir or yelling into the wind. :?

  10. AldotheApache December 21st, 2010 at 9:24 am

    MTU, mornin!

    “dumpster diving for a starter”

    I love it!!!

  11. MTU December 21st, 2010 at 9:25 am

    Aldo-

    Isn’t that what it’s starting to get down to ?

    AP. Please return.

    :)

  12. AldotheApache December 21st, 2010 at 9:26 am

    Typo, S/b “not ever MLB player …”

  13. MTU December 21st, 2010 at 9:29 am

    Hey.

    How about the “Duke of Hurl”, or Brad Penny ?

    Hear Penny has slimmed down and has a new trophy wife.

    Got to be better than Millwood or Garcia.

    At least there might be some upside if they are healthy.

  14. Erin December 21st, 2010 at 9:30 am

    pat, I just went back and read your post in the last thread-loved it. :)

  15. 108 stitches December 21st, 2010 at 9:30 am

    Again, what input Larry Rothschild provides would be a determining factor in getting Zambrano.
    How do we know that a change of environment and better team chemistry than the Cubs offered wouldn’t be a difference maker with Zambrano ? Many players have flourished by moving on to another team. The most recent case was Nick Swisher. He’s been a happy camper since coming to the Yankees opposed to a tough time with Ozzie Guillen in Chicago.
    I like Lou Piniella as a baseball man but perhaps he and Zambrano clashed. Some reports say Zambrano and Derrick Lee were contantly at odds. Once Lou retired and Lee was traded, things calmed down with Zambrano, hence his record in the final 6-8 weeks of last season.
    The subdued demeanor of Girardi and reunited with the only pitching coach he’s ever had in the big leagues, and supportive teammates might be all the tonic he needs.

  16. AldotheApache December 21st, 2010 at 9:30 am

    MTU,

    Yeah, it IS starting to look like that.

    Till I realize these guys generally play it close to the vest.

    Anyway, I’ll be wearing my “rose-colored” glasses all the way to the end of ST, so long as Cashman sticks to my one request … ABP.

    Anybody But Pavano.

  17. MTU December 21st, 2010 at 9:33 am

    Aldo-

    If Cashman ever brought back Pavano I would go out to where Aaron Ralston lost his arm and just wedge myself in for good.

    :)

  18. AldotheApache December 21st, 2010 at 9:34 am

    I’ve been seein a lot comments here about Zambrano. I wouldn’t mind seeing him in the Bronx. BUT …

    It seems to make sense that Z can get here through a contract swap by sending AJ in exchange, as it’s been suggested here.

    Only problem I have with that is … I’d prefer taking my chances with AJ.

  19. GreenBeret7 December 21st, 2010 at 9:35 am

    Not sure how much truth there is to the asking price for Greinke, it’s no wonder NYYs backed off. Any 2 of the asking prices would have topped what KC settled on.

    “At the meetings the Yanks learned the full extent of what Kansas City would need to complete a deal. The Royals wanted catcher Jesus Montero, shortstop Eduardo Nunez and either Dellin Betances or Manuel Banuelos. The sides did not get further than that in discussions, but the Royals also said tjeu would need a fourth piece, another pitcher. Kansas City liked the Triple A-level arms such as Hector Noesi, Ivan Nova, Adam Warren and David Phelps”

    http://www.nypost.com/p/sports.....wIl1Ue9qWM

  20. SAS December 21st, 2010 at 9:36 am

    Good morning to the morning crowd.

  21. blake December 21st, 2010 at 9:38 am

    If the Cubs trade Zambrano then its to shed his salary, not to take back an equally bad contract in AJ that’s actually a year longer.

  22. AldotheApache December 21st, 2010 at 9:39 am

    MTU, I just don’t see it happening under ANY current circumstance.

    What GM would be crazy enough to go their bosses with the idea of bringing BACK on board their biggest mistake in decades? Not to mention the noise Pavano made on his way out the door about the Yankees letting him go without making an offer.

    Not my favorite player.

  23. MTU December 21st, 2010 at 9:40 am

    GB-

    Yankee tax at it’s finest.

    Glad we didn’t bite on that one.

    ;)

  24. MTU December 21st, 2010 at 9:41 am

    Aldo-

    What I think of Little carl is not fit for print on this blog.

    ;)

  25. MTU December 21st, 2010 at 9:42 am

    SAS-

    Please get out here and help me build this Ark.

    Hurry. The water is rising fast.

    Glad you made it home safe and sound. Lucky you. Dry land.

    :)

  26. AldotheApache December 21st, 2010 at 9:43 am

    Blake, you’re probably right. I was alluding to suggestions made here.

    But then it becomes a MUCH bigger financial risk for the Yankees unless the Cubbies are willing toneat some of Z’s salary. I know VERY little about them, but why would they do that?

  27. blake December 21st, 2010 at 9:43 am

    Pavano isn’t happening…no worries there. It would be a media circus and he will have decent offers out there from other teams.

  28. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 9:43 am

    I was all in for Greinke .( even giving up Montero and Nunez ) ,,. but the final asking price was ridiculous

  29. 86w183 December 21st, 2010 at 9:43 am

    Meanwhile what about Kevin Gregg for the bullpen? He’s just 33 next June, durable and effective most of the time. A little HR prone, especially in Wrigley Field 2 years ago but would certainly be a positive addition.

    Yanks should have kept Austin Kearns for the $ 1.3 M he got from Cleveland. Where else is there a better, cheaper RH hitting 4th OF option?

  30. Yankee Trader December 21st, 2010 at 9:45 am

    I’m glad that Montero, Nunez and one of the 3 B’s were not traded to KC for Greinke.

    If Pettitte retires, I’d like another lefty in the starting rotation. In order to unload some salary, would the Cubs offer Zambrano, Sean Marshall, and $$ for a bevy of prospects, putting lefty Marshall as the 5th starter, and Nova/Noesi in the bullpen?

  31. MTU December 21st, 2010 at 9:45 am

    86-

    What would it take ?

    I’d be OK wih him in a setup role. Would he do that ?

  32. Yankee Trader December 21st, 2010 at 9:47 am

    86w183-

    Gregg, Balfour, or Rauch seem to be the best of the rest FA righthanded relievers left.

  33. Yankee Trader December 21st, 2010 at 9:49 am

    MTU-

    Keeping your head above water?

  34. blake December 21st, 2010 at 9:50 am

    Aldo,

    The cubbies need to shed some payroll if they can. If they would pick up a little a zambrano’s salary and accept non-impact players in return then I could see the Yanks having some interest there….otherwise Im passing.

  35. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 9:51 am

    Can’t touch Balfour. He somehow attained Type A status. Gregg and Rauch both type B’s.

  36. Yankee Trader December 21st, 2010 at 9:52 am

    Gregg had better numbers than Jenks last year and Jenks got 2yrs/12M to be a 7th or 8th inning reliever.

  37. 86w183 December 21st, 2010 at 9:52 am

    Any of the three would be a welcome addition. Yankee Trader.

    It’s just ca$h and $houldn’t be a great deal of it at that. One of them plus Feliciano and Pettite is still significantly less $$$ than Cliff Lee.

    Balfour probably has the best stuff of the three. I forgot he was still out there

    Don’t see any of the three having teams banging on the door for them to close in 2011.

  38. blake December 21st, 2010 at 9:54 am

    Mell,

    Nope, can’t give Tampa your 1st rounder for Balfour…..maybe for Soriano, but not balfour.

  39. AldotheApache December 21st, 2010 at 9:54 am

    blake says:
    December 21, 2010 at 9:43 am
    Pavano isn’t happening…no worries there. It would be a media circus and he will have decent offers out there from other teams.

    ———-

    Agree

  40. MTU December 21st, 2010 at 9:56 am

    YT-

    Thankfully we’re up 600 feet. Doubt the river is gonna go that high.

    This is an Epic weather event that is for sure.

    Cashman told me my backup plan was to grow a set of gills like Costner had in “waterworld”.

    How are you doing ? Stayin’ dry ?

    :)

  41. 108 stitches December 21st, 2010 at 9:56 am

    Gregg, Balfour, or Rauch seem to be the best of the rest FA righthanded relievers left.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    It won’t be long and they’ll be gone also. The bullpen is an entirely separate issue and something that requires no waiting for a decision from Pettitte.

  42. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 9:57 am

    Mr. & Mrs. Santa Claus & Mr. Cashman:

    Please just rebuild the pen. Mix any combination of Rauch, Fuentes, Soria, Soriano or Balfour in my Christmas sock would be nice. You have the money that was earmarked for Lee now please spread it around to give the NYY the toughest six thru nine guys (RP’s) in MLB. Shorten our games next year, starting today, the shortest day of the year. I will be happy to pitch in and wrap toys if you need help in your workshop.

    Thank you and Blessed Happy Holidays to all there at the Pole.

    Peace

  43. Crawdaddy December 21st, 2010 at 9:58 am

    The Yankees aren’t giving up their #1 draft choice for Greg Balfour.

  44. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 9:58 am

    The surprise news I would take is simply Andy saying he is coming back.

  45. Yankee Trader December 21st, 2010 at 9:58 am

    In reality, which teams need a closer at this point:
    White Sox- have Thornton/Crain
    Indians
    Angels-have Rodney
    Rays
    Blue Jays
    Diamondbacks
    Astros
    Pirates
    Nationals-is this where Soriano will land????

  46. Crawdaddy December 21st, 2010 at 9:59 am

    On top of giving him a 3/15M contract.

  47. 86w183 December 21st, 2010 at 9:59 am

    Yeah I would shy away from a Type-A as well.

    This is where baseball needs to do sign-and-trade deals where the Yanks can get Balfour and give up something of lesser value than a No. 1… or have a team that has its No. 1 pick protected sign a guy for you and then trade him to you.

    Draft pick compensation needs to go away in the next CBA. A draft salary scale should be in there as well as letting teams trade picks. That combination of changes could benefit any team be it large revenue or small.

  48. randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 9:59 am

    if pettitte comes back and i think he will, i’m not that concerned about the starting pitching to start the season. there’s time to add someone or to have a young pitcher emerge.

    since last year was the day of the vazquez trade, here’s a thought that will sound crazy at first but maybe it wouldn’t have been a bad idea.

    with the possibility of getting to this position where cashman is at right now with only three starters who are experienced, why didn’t he sign vazquez to another year. wouldn’t the yankees be better off having a gy who at his worst has a 5.00 era? wouldn’t there be a chance he’d be a 4. 5 era guy for 200 innings?

    how would that be a bad thing for 7 million ? i am also starting to wonder about whether eiland was more of a problem than we thought. vazquez, burnett, and joba all right handers who were bad last year( yes hughes emerged under the same pitching coach).

    if burnett bounces back under rothschild maybe vazquez would have too. even if he didn’t he would probably be better that the average#4 in the league.

    people say cashman has had no choices this off season. he actually had a chance wit vazquez and he passed. maybe he should have considering he did not know what pettitte was going to do.

    it’s water over the dam, but as the pitching conundrum continues it makes you wonder how casman let himself get in this position waiting to see if pettitte is going to play this year.

  49. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 9:59 am

    Here’s what I guess is a stupid question. What happens if a type A free agent doesn’t sign? When does that type A status go away or when is he available without giving up a pick?

  50. Crawdaddy December 21st, 2010 at 10:03 am

    Randy,

    Javy was ready to leave the Yankees. I don’t think he wanted any part of the Yankees in 2011 or ever again. He’s cooked here!

  51. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 10:05 am

    Nationals don’t need a closer. Storen is their closer of the future and came up at the end of last year.

  52. Bronx Jeers December 21st, 2010 at 10:06 am

    Will December 21st, 2010 be forever known as Zambrano Day ?

    I share a life with a hot-headed South American so I really wouldn’t be fazed. :smile:

    But in reality he just gives up too many walks.

  53. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 10:06 am

    it makes you wonder how casman let himself get in this position waiting to see if pettitte is going to play this year.

    - Quite simple . .Cashman had MOST of his eggs in one basket ( Cliff Lee ) .. His plan B was Greinke , but as we all know the asking price was way too high . Plan C . Waiting on 40 yearold injury proned Andy BRETT FARVE Pettite and a bunch of washed up pitchers.

  54. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 10:06 am

    86w183
    December 21st, 2010 at 9:43 am

    I think Cashman would prefer younger if at all possible than (Gregg) Kearns just didn’t cut the mustard in NY last year, remember all those K’s with ball up in his eyes ?

    Perhaps Laird or Jerry Hairston Jr. might return to fill that multi position role next year.

  55. Yankee Trader December 21st, 2010 at 10:07 am

    Vazquez had lost 3-4 mph off his fastball, for some unknown reason.

    At this point either prices are going to come down for some of these FA’s, or they’ll be lucky to get a minor league invitation to spring training.

    Move on as if Pettitte is retiring, although it would be nice of him to let the Yankees know before the end of the year.

  56. GreenBeret7 December 21st, 2010 at 10:09 am

    58 days until full camp opens.

    100 days until Opening Day.

  57. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 10:09 am

    Mike Ri:

    Kind of a stretch to refer to Pettitte as injury prone. Man’s made 31 or more starts in 14 of his 16 MLB seasons.

  58. SAS December 21st, 2010 at 10:09 am

    Dear Andy,

    I have been one of your biggest fans. I do understand that one of these years you will retire, but the Yankees need you this year. It’s kind of taking one for the team. In my stocking or sooner, I would be most grateful if you would give us one more year. We really need you this year. It can be your farewell year, and I will understand that.

    Please tell your family how much we need you. They will understand.

    Thank you in advance and please make all of us on LoHud have a happy holiday season. If you sign today…that would be soon enough for me.

    My sincerest thanks.

    Your fan,

    SAS

  59. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 10:09 am

    Gardner and Noesi to the Nationals for Jason Marquis, Ross Detwiler and Michael Morse?

  60. heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 10:10 am

    Really not sure about even entertaining the possibility of Zambrano. If the guy can’t get along with Derrek Lee, how would he do with Posada?

  61. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 10:11 am

    “Kearns just didn’t cut the mustard in NY last year, remember all those K’s with ball up in his eyes ?”

    Market for righthanded hitting 4th OF types is truly miserable. Kearns may have been near the top.

  62. austinmac December 21st, 2010 at 10:12 am

    I think Soriano is worth the loss of a first round pick, but I don’t think this option is under consideration with the unwillingness to pay an EIG closer money. I hope he doesn’t return to the Rays or go to the Jays. I do think the Jays could be very tough next year.

  63. MTU December 21st, 2010 at 10:12 am

    GB-

    Just curious.

    What would you do with respect to our Pitching ?

  64. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 10:12 am

    Mell –

    I meant at this stage of his career . . its alot to ask Andy to repeat his performance of last year

  65. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 10:13 am

    Mell December 21st, 2010 at 10:11 am
    “Kearns just didn’t cut the mustard in NY last year, remember all those K’s with ball up in his eyes ?”

    Market for righthanded hitting 4th OF types is truly miserable. Kearns may have been near the top.

    ————————

    I would rather have Reed Johnson right now. And there are guys like that available on the trade market too – Connor Jackson comes to mind.

  66. Yankee Trader December 21st, 2010 at 10:14 am

    Gardner and Noesi to the Nationals for Jason Marquis, Ross Detwiler and Michael Morse?

    ———————————————————-

    OMG-Why this obsession to trade our future lead off hitter?

  67. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 10:15 am

    Jack Curry (or Tyler Kepner) last night on YHS was saying that if the Yankees come to camp with an open fifth spot, Andrew Brackman may be the favorite to win it.

    Personally I think the Yankees would rather start Brackman in AAA, but the fact that he is on the 40 man roster does help his cause over a guy like Phelps, Warren or Noesi who would have to be added.

  68. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 10:15 am

    “I would rather have Reed Johnson right now. And there are guys like that available on the trade market too – Connor Jackson comes to mind”

    Yeah, either guy would be a decent 4th OF.

  69. MTU December 21st, 2010 at 10:16 am

    Chip-

    Slight correction.

    Noesi is on the 40 man.

  70. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 10:16 am

    Yankee Trader December 21st, 2010 at 10:14 am
    Gardner and Noesi to the Nationals for Jason Marquis, Ross Detwiler and Michael Morse?

    ———————————————————-

    OMG-Why this obsession to trade our future lead off hitter?

    ————————-

    OMG – Why this obsession to believe Brett Gardner is going to be anything more than Scott Podsednik or Juan Pierre?

  71. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 10:16 am

    MTU December 21st, 2010 at 10:16 am
    Chip-

    Slight correction.

    Noesi is on the 40 man.

    ———–

    My faux pas

  72. sunny615 December 21st, 2010 at 10:16 am

    The list of leftovers is pretty non inspiring. I don’t see anyone out there (other than the King Felix/Josh Johnson’s) that is really worth getting thrilled over. So far, the Yankee offseason has been less than inspiring (Prior, Viz, Martin, Feliciano, etc) and if anything, seriously crappy. If Pettitte does in fact retire, the Yanks are probably worse off than they were last year. I don’t see anyone of any value becoming available in the next 6 months that would seriously upgrade the rotation/team. The infield is pretty much set as is the outfield. The rotation was the piece that needed the significant upgrade and it was not addressed. Cash tried, but ultimately, with Pettitte still out and Cliff Lee gone, it’s a pretty substantial hole. And it has to be said that the Sox addressed their needs pretty well… Hard to be anything but seriously concerned about 2011.

  73. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 10:17 am

    If Cashman waits and waits for everything he needs to do based on what Pettitte does or doesn’t do he is cooked.

    He had approx. $ 160 million set aside for Lee use the money and rebuild the pen now. Start today. Pettitte knows how to pickup the phone if he wants to come back otherwise let him be.

    Rebuild the pen, give up a draft pick if need be, get it done before there is nothing left on the FA market. Come on now how hard is that ?

  74. 86w183 December 21st, 2010 at 10:18 am

    I’m fine with giving Laird a chance to be the 4th OF, RH bat off the bench. I just hope they make sure he gets enough at bats.

    No chance Vazquez stays… he wanted back in the NL in the worst way.

    Here’s a thought — will AL clubs’ attitude towards the DH begin to change with pitchers going out of their way to get into the NL (Grienke, Lee, Halladay, Vazquez among others)???

    If AL teams are going to find it harder to acquire starting pitchers might they move to eliminate this 37 year gimmick?

  75. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 10:19 am

    Gardner the guy who can’t bunt.

  76. randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 10:19 am

    “Vazquez had lost 3-4 mph off his fastball, for some unknown reason.”

    it seems like joba has too when he was starting. burnett even seems to have lost velocity.
    maybe there was a pattern there.

    we see lester and buchholz gain a lot of velocity over a couple of years and we don’t really see that happening on the yankees. was there something eiland and the organization was pushing that may have been a factor in the lack of velocity. yes hughes threw well, but maybe he was the exception.

    it would actually be good news if it was something eiland was doing, because he’s gone.

    i do know i’d rather have vazquez in the rotation right now that the way it is .

    i’m also puzzled what the yankees would have to lose by putting joba in the rotation to start the year. why not roll the dice on him. he could always go back to the bullpen at any time. i don’t see the downside of giving him a chance to start.

    it seems easier to pick up a reliever than a starter . also what does it tell joba about preparing for the season? your gm has already publicly given up on you ever being a starter . why should you get in great shape. you’re just a reliever anyway. what’s a few pounds if all you are going to do but throw an inning every other day?

    i really don’t get cashman’s handling of joba. he doesn’t seem to be doing anything to bring out the best in the guy. it’s almost like he’s given up on job ever being a star again.even if he has he should get him good enough to get a little successful run and then trade him .

  77. heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 10:19 am

    I’d rather have Scott Posednik than Jason Marquis

  78. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 10:20 am

    Yankee Trader December 21st, 2010 at 10:14 am
    Gardner and Noesi to the Nationals for Jason Marquis, Ross Detwiler and Michael Morse?

    ———————————————————-

    OMG-Why this obsession to trade our future lead off hitter?

    ——————-

    In all seriousness – I like Brett – but the Yankees don’t have all that many tradeable assets. They either have minor leaguers that they have no intention of trading or other guys who no one wants because they feel they’re being overhyped by the Yankee War Machine.

    Gardner happens to be one of the few non-elite prospects that other teams know can play at this level – he comes cheap and can be replaced because while someday he may be the Yankee leadoff hitter it ain’t gonna be any day soon.

  79. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 10:20 am

    The DH isn’t going away.

  80. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 10:21 am

    heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 10:19 am
    I’d rather have Scott Posednik than Jason Marquis

    —————-

    Quite frankly you can have both since Podsednik is a Free Agent.

    Do the trade then sign him to play LF – or sign Johnny Damon and give yourself a stronger lineup.

  81. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 10:21 am

    Doreen December 21st, 2010 at 8:01 am
    +++++++++++++
    Thank you. One of the best posts I have read all season.

  82. heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 10:22 am

    Basically, what I’m saying is I don’t want Jason Marquis

  83. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 10:23 am

    86w183 December 21st, 2010 at 10:18 am
    I’m fine with giving Laird a chance to be the 4th OF, RH bat off the bench. I just hope they make sure he gets enough at bats.

    No chance Vazquez stays… he wanted back in the NL in the worst way.

    Here’s a thought — will AL clubs’ attitude towards the DH begin to change with pitchers going out of their way to get into the NL (Grienke, Lee, Halladay, Vazquez among others)???

    If AL teams are going to find it harder to acquire starting pitchers might they move to eliminate this 37 year gimmick?

    ——————————-

    The “37 Year Gimmick” exists in every league from high school to college to international ball to the majors – there’s only one league in all of the world’s baseball that doesn’t use the DH…so at this point it’s probably more accurate to say that having the pitcher hit is a gimmick.

  84. YankeesNmore December 21st, 2010 at 10:23 am

    Ah yes! The SECOND Javier Vazquez trade… Brian Cashman showing us all how smart he is, and how right he was to trade for Crapzquez the first time.

    The Yankees need a new GM… One who is not shy about using their greatest advantage, the checkbook, to their greatest benefit.

    Cashman is too obsessed with making the subtle, clever move–the one that might make him look like a smart baseball man if it works out–than just doing the obvious thing that everybody knows will work.

    The only time Cashman just goes out and overwhelms people with the $$$ is when he knows his job is on the line (like after missing the playoffs in 2008)… Then he’ll do it.

    The rest of the time, he’d rather take the chance to show everybody how smart he is, even is losing is the result.

  85. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 10:24 am

    heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 10:22 am
    Basically, what I’m saying is I don’t want Jason Marquis

    ——————–

    I understood the point; I can’t really argue it as Marquis is an NL pitcher who at times has been “not good” to be sure…

    I’m just looking for a back end of the rotation guy capable of throwing a couple of hundred respectable innings.

  86. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 10:25 am

    Re: Zambrano–

    He certainly isn’t the pitcher he was a few years ago. His velocity is way down (88mph at the last report I saw), and I owuld be less than thrilled with a NL Central pitcher coming to the AL East with less than stellat stuff.

    Garcia is looking better and better…throw out a few bad outings, and his 2010 seasaon wasn’t so bad.

    Better yet, let the kids (Nova, Noesi, Phelps) have the spots and wait out a trade opportunity. If nothing materializes by July, perhaps other kids (Betancs, Baneulos) are ready to come up by then.

  87. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 10:25 am

    “I’m fine with giving Laird a chance to be the 4th OF, RH bat off the bench. I just hope they make sure he gets enough at bats.”

    Probably needs some more time in AAA. He crushed in Trenton, but in AAA and the AFL he was getting on base at well below .300. 5 K’s for every walk over his AAA and AFL time too. Not huge samples (110+ at bats in both leagues), but probably enough to suggest a little more AAA time might help him.

  88. heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 10:25 am

    Replace Marquis with Chris Young, and you don’t have to give up anybody in a trade. Still don’t like it, but I understand eating innings.

  89. Shame Spencer December 21st, 2010 at 10:27 am

    I think the problem with Joba was the organization either never approached him or never approached him effectively about how dispensable he was/is.

    If I’m dealing with someone like Joba and I start to see how the pieces are falling this winter, I get him on the horn asap and say something like “If you don’t plan to come to spring training in good shape, ready to compete for a spot, don’t bother showing up. I’m sure there’s some desperate team in the NL Central willing to take a chance on ya, kid. Best of luck to ya!”

    Probably still a season too late to have that conversation but what the heck, right?

  90. GreenBeret7 December 21st, 2010 at 10:27 am

    MTU December 21st, 2010 at 10:12 am
    GB-

    Just curious.

    What would you do with respect to our Pitching ?

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    MTU, going on the assumption that Pettitte is not returning, there was never much on the FA market except for Lee and De La Rosa. Lee wasn’t coming except for an even more obscene contract than he was already offered and De La Rosa was not worth 4 years at $11 mil per. Lilly was never an option because he signed 2 weeks before the Yanks could have talked to him.

    That leaves trades. The cost for Greinke was insane. Right now, the possibilities are Carmona, Zambrano, Nolasco and perhaps Jackson. Carmona and Zambrano being the most likely. Neither team is going anywhere. My guess would be zambrano.

    In the bullpen, I’d go for Rauch and overpay for Soriano. I’d finish off the bullpen with Fuentes.

    Nova will be one starter and if no trades can be arranged, either sign Garcia or let Brackman and Phelps cut cards for the 5th spot.

  91. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 10:30 am

    Joba is a middle reliever.

  92. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 10:31 am

    YankeesNmore December 21st, 2010 at 10:23 am
    Ah yes! The SECOND Javier Vazquez trade… Brian Cashman showing us all how smart he is, and how right he was to trade for Crapzquez the first time.

    The Yankees need a new GM… One who is not shy about using their greatest advantage, the checkbook, to their greatest benefit.

    Cashman is too obsessed with making the subtle, clever move–the one that might make him look like a smart baseball man if it works out–than just doing the obvious thing that everybody knows will work.

    The only time Cashman just goes out and overwhelms people with the $$$ is when he knows his job is on the line (like after missing the playoffs in 2008)… Then he’ll do it.

    The rest of the time, he’d rather take the chance to show everybody how smart he is, even is losing is the result.

    ———————————————-

    Right – because throwing around big bucks always works out, like with Jason Giambi, or Kyle Farnsworth, or Steve Karsay, or Jose Conteras, or or or….

    And he’s truly been gunshy when it comes to signing or trading for guys with big contracts, like Alex Rodriguez, Derek Jeter, Andy, Clemens, Cone, Posada, Rivera, Granderson, Matsui, Damon.

    And let’s not forget – he did offer Cliff Lee 156 million – he just didn’t opt to sign here.

  93. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 10:31 am

    Did the Marlins just close on Nolasco? Thought I saw 3 years for $27M somewhere over the last day or so.

  94. heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 10:32 am

    LOL I do enjoy the nickname “Crapzquez” tho…

  95. Don December 21st, 2010 at 10:32 am

    Looking back two years, the best night was on December 23 when I was in a bakery and heard on the radio that Mark Teixeira was signed by the Yanks. I don’t think we will get such a nice surprise this year.

  96. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 10:32 am

    Mell December 21st, 2010 at 10:25 am
    “I’m fine with giving Laird a chance to be the 4th OF, RH bat off the bench. I just hope they make sure he gets enough at bats.”

    Probably needs some more time in AAA. He crushed in Trenton, but in AAA and the AFL he was getting on base at well below .300. 5 K’s for every walk over his AAA and AFL time too. Not huge samples (110+ at bats in both leagues), but probably enough to suggest a little more AAA time might help him.

    ———————

    Agreed – plus you have no idea if he can perform in spot duty.

  97. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 10:32 am

    ‘In the bullpen, I’d go for Rauch and overpay for Soriano. I’d finish off the bullpen with Fuentes’

    =============

    It is nice to see someone else with my same train of thought. GET IT DONE PLEASE !

  98. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 10:33 am

    Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 10:30 am
    Joba is a middle reliever.

    —————–

    He and Aaron Heilman should start a support group: One time phenoms who are now in pitching limbo.

  99. Bronx Jeers December 21st, 2010 at 10:33 am

    I hope A-Rod isn’t a 37 year old gimmick in 2 years.

  100. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 10:34 am

    Mell
    December 21st, 2010 at 10:31 am

    Did the Marlins just close on Nolasco? Thought I saw 3 years for $27M somewhere over the last day or so.

    ========

    Yes, done deal.

  101. GreenBeret7 December 21st, 2010 at 10:35 am

    Laird, like Montero will never draw a lot of walks. They’ll top out around 50 a year unless they draw a large amount of intentional walks.

  102. Giuseppe Franco December 21st, 2010 at 10:35 am

    Actions speak louder than words and Cashman has already spoken on the issue of left field.

    The Yanks passed on signing Carl Crawford because of Gardner. It’s as simple as that.

    That tells me it’s downright foolish to keep including him in fantasy trade proposals since the Yanks obviously have no intention of dealing their starting left fielder.

  103. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 10:35 am

    He and Aaron Heilman should start a support group: One time phenoms who are now in pitching limbo.

    =============

    Does Heilman like the ‘sauce’ too ?

  104. GreenBeret7 December 21st, 2010 at 10:37 am

    At a reasonable price in salary, Nolasco just became more valuable to the Marlins as a trade piece.

  105. JWeav December 21st, 2010 at 10:37 am

    Dear SAS,

    Thanks for the kind letter and for being my biggest fan. I’m sorry to say I have decided that life is too short to play one more year for a bad Yankees team. If Cliff was there I was going to use some special cream for my ailments and lace em’ up and get back out there. I’m getting older and I’m running out of time to spend my $125,332,416. Tell everyone at Lohud sorry. Maybe I’ll throw the first pitch out sometime for a belated farewell.

    Thanks, Andy Pettitte

  106. Cashman needs to go December 21st, 2010 at 10:40 am

    Whats makes you all think that Dorky Cashman will make a mid season trade for a quality starter? If he wasn’t willing to give up his beloved crappy prospects now to have a quality starter all year – you think he’ll want to give them up in July for a starter that will be here for 2 months?

    And do you think teams are more willing to take back crap in July for their star pitcher – which is what Cashman is only willing to trade. Teams have smartened up. They know the yankees don’t have much in the minors and if they aren’t willing to give the good ones up then they’ll go to another team to make the trades – even if it means they take less in return.

    Remember 2 seasons ago when NO ONE was willing to give up Joba and Montero for Halladay…well imagine if Halladay was on the team now….we wouldn’t be having the freddie garcia and kevin millwood discussions…..

  107. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 10:40 am

    Is Pettitte already on the invite list for the 2011 Old Timers Day Parade & Game ?

  108. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 10:41 am

    My bullpen:

    RHP: Mariano, Robertson, Romulo Sanchez, Rauch, Gregg
    LHP: Feliciano, Logan

  109. RayVT December 21st, 2010 at 10:42 am

    I’m not sure I’m ready to trade Gardner now as Crawford & Werth are not options to replace him like they were earlier.

    I think Laird will fill in well at 3B/1B/RF/LF and get enough at bats to keep him fresh and consistent. I think Nunez is the right guy for a backup SS and 2B and PR. Pena & Cervelli are trade bait IMO. Montero needs to catch 50 games and DH 30 games. Posada can be a part-time catcher 30 games/emergency catcher & DH. Martin should catch about 80 games and maybe some defensive replacements.

    I think the Yanks would do fine by getting Zambrano as long as the prospects required are not too much. Zambrano would give depth & innings as a #4/5.

  110. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 10:42 am

    If Cashman waits for bargains at mid season the Red Sux may be so far out in front it may not matter. IMO, they are vastly improved and loaded for bear now.

  111. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 10:42 am

    “Laird, like Montero will never draw a lot of walks. They’ll top out around 50 a year unless they draw a large amount of intentional walks”

    For a guy with considerable pop, Laird doesn’t strikeout a great deal either, but difference in K/BB ratio was fairly pronounced as he saw a little better pitching. He was barely over 2/1 with Trenton, which was pretty consistent with his full seasons Charleston and Tampa.

  112. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 10:42 am

    Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 10:35 am
    He and Aaron Heilman should start a support group: One time phenoms who are now in pitching limbo.

    =============

    Does Heilman like the ’sauce’ too ?

    ————–

    after all those years with the Mets it’s hard to imagine he doesn’t

  113. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 10:43 am

    Mell December 21st, 2010 at 10:42 am
    “Laird, like Montero will never draw a lot of walks. They’ll top out around 50 a year unless they draw a large amount of intentional walks”

    For a guy with considerable pop, Laird doesn’t strikeout a great deal either, but difference in K/BB ratio was fairly pronounced as he saw a little better pitching. He was barely over 2/1 with Trenton, which was pretty consistent with his full seasons Charleston and Tampa.

    —————-

    Again – let’s see what happens with Laird (and the young pitchers) when the level of competition jumps.

    That’s what separates prospects from AAAA players.

  114. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 10:45 am

    Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 10:42 am
    If Cashman waits for bargains at mid season the Red Sux may be so far out in front it may not matter. IMO, they are vastly improved and loaded for bear now.

    ————-

    For the division maybe – but there’s always the Wild Card.

    Plus you never know what’s going to happen – Bucholtz may blow out his elbow and Youk could tear his knee in spring training…

  115. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 10:48 am

    Chip
    December 21st, 2010 at 10:42 am

    Two peas in a pod. Just think they can ‘literally hold’ each other up at the support meetings.

  116. YankeesNmore December 21st, 2010 at 10:51 am

    The Yankees COULD have blown everybody, including the Phillies, out of the water on Cliff Lee, just as they did with Sabathia… Their TV Network is worth BILLIONS, for God’s sake! They can get anybody they want.

    Cashman chose not to. But, like I said, when Sabathia hit the market, Cashman was under SIGNIFICANT pressure after missing the playoffs entirely… Now he’s comfortable again.

  117. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 10:53 am

    YankeesNmore -

    Don’t worry .. Ivan Nova and Sirgo Meat Tray will save our season . . You watch !

  118. heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 10:54 am

    YankeesNmore…what would have been your offer to Lee? And how do you think that affects Sabathia and any future signings

  119. RayVT December 21st, 2010 at 10:56 am

    Maybe we should be afraid of the RSox, but I don’t feel that way. Sure they are improved, but the question is how much.

    Catching is still very weak.
    SS is weak.
    CF is still a question mark.
    Starting Pitching is a question mark outside of Lester and perhaps Bucholtz. The same could be said of the Yanks as well outside of CC & Hughes.

    Injuries played a huge role in Boston & NY last year. Boston got more press on theirs, but the Yanks were hit hard as well. Both teams have questions there.

    The division & WC are open for play IMO. TB, Texas, Angels & Twins are all weaker. RS & CWS are probably the only teams in playoff contention that are stonger .

    To everyone concerned about the Yanks SP! I have this question, if the Yanks had the 2010 stats for RSox SP for #3 thru #5, would you be satisfied or complaining?

  120. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 10:56 am

    For the division maybe – but there’s always the Wild Card.

    Plus you never know what’s going to happen – Bucholtz may blow out his elbow and Youk could tear his knee in spring training…make that pen the strongest Yankee asset

    ===============

    Very true. I just don’t like mailing it in and coming in second (Wild Card) I want Cashman to be proactive NOW and make that pen the strongest Yankee asset so we have a fighting chance to win the East again. Shortening the game with an awesome pen seems to be a very attainable thing right now while there is still time and bodies to be had in the FA market.

    IMO this will help with AJ, Hughes and CC as well by not having to depend on them for length all the time and running their innings through the roof.

    I honestly don’t know what Cashman is waiting for, he has a truck load of dough he didn’t use for Lee, Wood is gone and there are holes he can easily fill with that money. Ha ! Ha !

  121. YankeesNmore December 21st, 2010 at 10:57 am

    And by the way, am I the ONLY one who recognizes that the Yankees were a .500 team from the end of July on??? .500!

    Cashman certainly seems to be in denial about it. Perhaps the fanbase, overall, is too.

    Of course, Cashman described his trade for Crapzquez last season as “something big,” so how can anybody take his word for anything—the moron doesn’t even learn from his mistakes.

    I look forward to our next GM… If Cashman is obsessed with being considered a clever GM, there are plenty of places he can go play the role of the Little Engine That Could.

  122. randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 10:58 am

    “Joba is a middle reliever.”

    if that’s all he is after the blue chip promise he had, why should yankee fans have any confidence the new crop of pitching prospects won’t just be middle relievers too.

    kennedy and joba both underachieved. hughes as achieved what was expected.

    1 out of 3 isn’t so good.

    seriously, if cashman is throwing joba under the bus already , what commitment does he really have to young pitching ?

    i would think cashman should be on joba nonstop to get the best out of him. it appears the yankees are just taking what they get out of him. there doesn’t seem to be any major effort to bring out the best in him. they really do seem like they’ve thrown in the towel on him.

  123. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 10:59 am

    Ray TV

    Catching is still very weak. –
    Is ours any stronger ???
    SS is weak. —
    our SS is ok . .at best …
    CF is still a question mark. -
    Elsbury is good .. can hit . .can steal 70 bases.. I know he had some attitude problems . .but his speed kills !

    Starting Pitching is a question mark outside of Lester and perhaps Bucholtz. The same could be said of the Yanks as well outside of CC & Hughes. —-

    have you looked at our starting rotation ?????

  124. PittsburghYankeeFan December 21st, 2010 at 11:00 am

    This offseason has been addition by subtraction. The only one left is Mitre–why they keep him is beyond me. Maybe they will DFA Mitre at spring training (like they did with Chad Gaudin), and the offseason will be complete.

  125. Shame Spencer December 21st, 2010 at 11:01 am

    randy – I think you need to reassess your vision of success in baseball. These guys hit 30% of the time and thats a great year. 1 in 3 pitchers becoming what they were expected to be is still a pretty good ratio. I’d take it in a heartbeat given the amount of arms we have stocked down there.

  126. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 11:02 am

    Good posts by Vineyard. Send me some of that Napa gold will ya’.

  127. YankeesNmore December 21st, 2010 at 11:05 am

    “YankeesNmore…what would have been your offer to Lee? And how do you think that affects Sabathia and any future signings”

    I would have handled it in a very similar way that Cashman (back when he was desperate) handled the Sabathia situation… I would have made a very public HUGE initial offer that scared off everybody… Were that offer not quickly accepted, at the Winter Meetings I would have given Lee the 7-year deal he wanted and 48 hours to sign.

    What I would NOT have done is what Cashman did: sit there passively, allowing myself to be used and abused, being led along like a barking dog on a leash.

  128. RayVT December 21st, 2010 at 11:06 am

    Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 10:59 am

    Yes I have:

    Even w/o Andy back the RSox rotation isn’t a lot better & if Andy is back the Yanks may be better.

    SP1 52 CC Sabathia
    SP2 65 Phil Hughes
    SP3 46 Andy Pettitte
    SP4 34 A.J. Burnett
    SP5 47 Ivan Nova
    SP6 45 Sergio Mitre

    SP1 Lester, Jon
    SP2 Buchholz, Clay
    SP3 Beckett, Josh
    SP4 Lackey, John
    SP5 Matsuzaka, Daisuke
    SP6 Wakefield, Tim

    CC vs Lester = Wash
    PH vs CB = Wash
    AP vs JB = Wash
    AJ vs JL = Wash
    IN vs Dm = Wash
    SM vs TW = Wash

    w/o Andy
    CC vs Lester = Wash
    PH vs CB = Wash
    AJ vs JB = Wash slight advantage JB
    IN vs JL = Wash
    SM vs Dm = Wash
    Noesi vs TW = Wash

  129. Cashman needs to go December 21st, 2010 at 11:06 am

    PittsburghYankeeFan December 21st, 2010 at 11:00 am
    This offseason has been addition by subtraction. The only one left is Mitre–why they keep him is beyond me. Maybe they will DFA Mitre at spring training (like they did with Chad Gaudin), and the offseason will be complete.

    ***************

    You do realize that as of right now Sergio Mitre is their #4 starter…right? And there doesn’t seem to be anything better available that Cashman won’t want to give up his precious prospects for…I wouldn’t be surprised that they don’t come back and offer Sergy a 3 year 12 million dollar contract…

  130. RayVT December 21st, 2010 at 11:07 am

    Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 10:59 am

    I believe the Yankees Catching with Martin/Montero/Posada/Cervelli is better than Salty & V-Tek by far.

  131. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 11:08 am

    Vineyard Yankee –

    To get serious for a minute about Joba – I put part of the blame on the Yankees for the way they “developed” him; but a lot of the blame also has to go to him. He bought into the hype way too much and as such hasn’t worked to improve himself – just the opposite, he’s gotten fat and apparently lazy.

    If I was coming off a season like he did – where I lost my role as the set-up man and heir to Rivera – I would be busting my butt this winter to so that I would be in a position to try and win it back; or to show that I should be a starter in the mix this spring. He’s done neither.

  132. austinmac December 21st, 2010 at 11:09 am

    I wouldn’t have expected last fall that things would have gone so badly that most on the board are now hoping for a wild card shot or significant injuries to our opposition.

    What could Cashman have done differently? He could have foreseen Lee might not accept and Andy would retire. Those were both possibilities that Cashman shold not have simply hoped wouldn’t occur. It is his job, after all, to make sure this billion dollar business takes care of player procurement. He was held hostage to hope.

  133. heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 11:09 am

    YankeesNmore – Lee turned down $30M to go to Philly. Not to mention his option year is 27M+ and not guaranteed. There is no reason to believe even a 200M offer would have done it, and a 48 hr deadline frankly is moronic.

  134. Keith--FL December 21st, 2010 at 11:10 am

    Cashman wants to prove he can be a real GM and not just the director of Yankee spending….so it looks like what we see with this team is what we will get which means all ticket prices should be lowered as this team is not even close to being as good as the Red Sox who I thought played better than us even with all of their injuries the 2nd half of last season….teams ask for way too much at deadline deals especially from the Yankees so it’s time to act now Cashman and set aside your ego…..sign Soriano, Damon, Hairston JR, and make Pettite an offer he can’t refuse….or we will be happy to have a new GM who does not have a separate agenda and you can direct the Pirates spending….in NY the Yankees don’t rebuild, we reload on the fly!!!!

  135. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 11:11 am

    Joba had a shot last winter as well Chip. He came to camp having a chance to win the number five starter job and just didn’t get it done.

  136. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 11:13 am

    Don’t get me wrong – I’m not hoping for a Wild Card, nor am I giving up on this season.

    My response was based on VY’s comment that if Cashman waits until midseason it may be too late to catch the Red Sox…I was only pointing out that even if that is the case – the playoffs are still not out of reach.

  137. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 11:13 am

    RayVT –

    We’ll see if Martin injury isn’t a factor and if Montero can make it . Posada for the most part is a DH and Cervelli will be in Scranton. either way .. The both teams can get by with there current catching situations

    w/o Andy
    CC vs Lester = Wash – agree
    PH vs CB = Wash – agree
    AJ vs JB = Wash slight advantage JB – agree
    IN vs JL = Wash – sorry no way
    SM vs Dm = Wash – sorry no way
    Noesi vs TW = Wash – this matchup will never happen

    even with Andy . . Who knows . . I just can’t see him repeating last seasons numbers

  138. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 11:14 am

    West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 11:11 am
    Joba had a shot last winter as well Chip. He came to camp having a chance to win the number five starter job and just didn’t get it done.

    ————————-

    That’s right – and he has another shot this winter.

    If he was a true competator he would have addressed the issues that cost him the job last spring so that he could come and try again this spring.

    His actions on the other hand strike me as a guy who is content to be a middle reliever and nothing more.

  139. RayVT December 21st, 2010 at 11:15 am

    At the beginning of this off-season I thought RSox would sign Werth, Beltre & V-Mart. Instead they got Crawford, AGone & zip on the offensive side of things. The RH power hitting Werth with the RSox would have been far more damaging than Crawford IMO. Now they still have no catcher & less power than they had last year. They also lost Hall & his power. Youk on 3B is not as good as Beltre at 3B defensively & AGone isn’t an upgrade defensively over Youk at 1B.

    I thought if the Yanks missed out on Lee, that the Rangers would get him. Lee is in the NL, so I don’t need to worry about him now till possibly a WS matchup.

  140. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 11:16 am

    CC vs Lester = Wash
    PH vs CB = Wash
    AP vs JB = Wash
    AJ vs JL = Wash
    IN vs Dm = Wash
    SM vs TW = Wash

    w/o Andy
    CC vs Lester = Wash
    PH vs CB = Wash
    AJ vs JB = Wash slight advantage JB
    IN vs JL = Wash
    SM vs Dm = Wash
    Noesi vs TW = Wash

    In what baseball world is Sergio Meat Tray and DM a wash? Nova is as good as John Lackey now? Are you serious here? This is just a stupid, and ill-thought out post. I guess if you assume Lackey and Dicek fall off a cliff, and neither continues to pitch the way they always have, you’re right. However if you consider how much better JL was in the second half v. the first, and you assume Meat Tray and Nova have huge breakout years, then yes, it’s a wash.

  141. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 11:17 am

    Fans should not complain about teams asking for a lot when trying to make a deal with the Yankees. It’s the price we pay for having the highest payroll and resources other teams do not have due to the size of the market we play in as well as other factors like YES. The universe works that way, there is always a cost.

    Cashman has to work in that environment and it can’t be used as an excuse. Sometimes we get away writing checks, like we did with Sabathia, Teixeira and Burnett. Now Cashman needs to be creative and prove his chops as an elite General Manager.

    And just an aside. IMO, setting our collective sights on the wild card on December 21st is not acceptable.

  142. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 11:18 am

    Too many people on here with rose colored glasses !!

  143. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 11:18 am

    “Joba had a shot last winter as well Chip. He came to camp having a chance to win the number five starter job and just didn’t get it done.”

    You didn’t get the sense that was Hughes’ job to lose? Not saying Chamberlain didn’t get a fair shot, but I do think the Yankees went into that “competition” with some preconceived notions.

  144. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 11:19 am

    randy l.
    December 21st, 2010 at 10:58 am

    “Joba is a middle reliever.”

    ================

    Cashman has said many, many times that Joba is a reliever now, in the pen, not a SP. I would like to think that Cashman and Co. have learned alot from the Hughes / Joba rules and yanking them back and forth between SP & RP. Alot of time and energy has been put into the young talent down on the farm, I would be very surprised to see the Yankee brain trust make those same errors again.

    IMO, Joba now is an out of shape, non motivated POS. Cashman, Girardi and Rothschild should be riding him, get him down to Tampa and impose a strict workout program. Then again he has little or no trade value now since his fall from being a ‘top prospect’.

  145. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 11:20 am

    West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 11:17 am
    Fans should not complain about teams asking for a lot when trying to make a deal with the Yankees. It’s the price we pay for having the highest payroll and resources other teams do not have due to the size of the market we play in as well as other factors like YES. The universe works that way, there is always a cost.

    ————————————

    It’s also a matter of perspective. As Yankee fans we’re biased to believe that our babies are the prettiest babies – other teams may not see a Brandon Laird or Eduardo Nunez as future MLB regulars let alone stars. Other teams may not view Brett Gardner as the next Brett Butler but instead as a nice complimentary player. Other teams may not consider what Joba was – they look instead at what he is.

  146. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 11:21 am

    ‘Send me some of that Napa gold will ya’.

    =============

    The flood has washed it all away, far, far away…………………….to never, neverland.

  147. RayVT December 21st, 2010 at 11:21 am

    Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 11:13 am

    Well without Andy it is close to being a wash for the top 3. With Andy I give the Yanks an edge for the Top 4 as 2 of the guys are Lefties with an RSox LH lineup.

    Beckett, Lackey & Dice-K have been on a downward spiral for some time now. They aren’t that good. Injuries & inconsistency have killed them. They beat up a BP quickly.

    With Nova/Mitre & even IMO Noesi you’d get improvement. I wouldn’t depend on them in playoffs or WS but I don’t think you’d have too or perhaps one might rise & shine.

    The RSox will be near their financial limits for 2010 just after the start of the season (thank-you AGone). The Yanks will not be there. This is an edge for Yanks as well.

  148. MTU December 21st, 2010 at 11:22 am

    Gb-

    Thanks. I was outside trying to film some of the Great Flood.

  149. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 11:25 am

    Mell December 21st, 2010 at 11:18 am

    “Joba had a shot last winter as well Chip. He came to camp having a chance to win the number five starter job and just didn’t get it done.”

    You didn’t get the sense that was Hughes’ job to lose? Not saying Chamberlain didn’t get a fair shot, but I do think the Yankees went into that “competition” with some preconceived notions.

    *********************************

    I have heard that but no I don’t think that was the case. It was speculative and a rumor that was unsubstantiated. I think Hughes just won the job. He was better.

  150. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 11:25 am

    A guy who has failed to EVER get out of the sixth inning is as good as John Lackey? Come on man..
    He had exactly one game that he even reached the sixth inning? Every team he faced pounded him the second time around the lineup.
    I like Nova, but lets not get crazy on the “wash” stuff in comparisons.

    As a Yankee fan, I’d much rather have seen Beltre and VMart in Boston than Crawford and AGon. In case you haven’t read up, AGon in a top five MLB player, and Crawford, while overpaid, is going to be exactly what Boston needs him to be. It’s not going to be Crawford hitting third or cleanup in Tampa…he’s a accessory there, not the centerpiece.
    At least be serious in your assessments. Both NY and Boston are going to be MUCH better offensively, but the pitching isn’t close.

  151. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 11:26 am

    Chip
    December 21st, 2010 at 11:08 am

    Agree, blame goes both ways.

    My post of 11:19am

    IMO, Joba now is an out of shape, non motivated POS. Cashman, Girardi and Rothschild should be riding him, get him down to Tampa and impose a strict workout program. Then again he has little or no trade value now since his fall from being a ‘top prospect’.

  152. Erin December 21st, 2010 at 11:28 am

    Joba_62 Rise and shop everyone! Christmas shopping here i come!! Have a great day y’all!!

    Joba_62 I LOVE THIS PLACE!! http://yfrog.com/gzf5xxj

    :lol:

  153. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 11:28 am

    Whatever you have to tell yourself, Ray. That’s just crazy.

    You feel pretty good about your chances in Fenway with Nove, Mitre and Burnett? I don’t feel good about that rotation in Baltimore, much less Boston.

  154. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 11:28 am

    Mell December 21st, 2010 at 11:18 am
    “Joba had a shot last winter as well Chip. He came to camp having a chance to win the number five starter job and just didn’t get it done.”

    You didn’t get the sense that was Hughes’ job to lose? Not saying Chamberlain didn’t get a fair shot, but I do think the Yankees went into that “competition” with some preconceived notions.

    ———————

    Given that Joba was moved into the pen after what – 1 start? – yeah I would say the competition was a little one sided.

    Bottom line remains, if I was Joba then I would be working my considerable behind off, improving my secondary pitches, putting in a call to Larry Rothschild to ask for help…whatever it took to get myself back into the mix for the open starter spot.

  155. MTU December 21st, 2010 at 11:29 am

    Gotta run.

    Catch up you all later (maybe. If I don’t drown).

    :)

  156. Gary December 21st, 2010 at 11:29 am

    And all through the house, not a creature was stirring not even a mouse! Well so far this off season the only thing that has been stirring are louses.

    I guess at this point the first priority is to get a decision from Andy, getting that position either buckled down or not will dictate the sense of urgency goping forward. Maybe that is the hope for a Christmas Present.

  157. RayVT December 21st, 2010 at 11:29 am

    cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 11:16 am

    Beckett was WL=6 & 6, ERA=5.78, WHIP=1.54
    Lackey was WL=14 & 11, ERA=4.40, WHIP=1.42
    Dice-K was WL=9 & 6, ERA=4.69, WHIP=1.37

    These aren’t inspiring #’s

  158. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 11:30 am

    West Coast Yankee Fan
    December 21st, 2010 at 11:17 am

    Agree you are correct. Although Cashman has to live and work in the ‘Yankeephere’ do you think that a revamped pen is attainable now (FA & $’s) and could it be a strength for this club in 2011 ?

  159. YankeesNmore December 21st, 2010 at 11:31 am

    Cashman got used TWICE on Cliff Lee in a span of 5 months… Once in the trade, once in free agency.

    If he doesn’t get abused when the trade went down, no telling where the Yankees go last year… Certainly the team that beat them in the ALCS would not have been there. Certainly the Yankees would have been much better.

    Moreover, maybe the Philly thing is never even an issue… Whether Philly remained a factor or not, whether the trade fell through or not, had Cashman approached the Lee situation the way he approached Sabathia, everybody else would have been blown out of the water. Period. The end.

    And Lee did NOT “leave $30 million” on the table… At MOST, he left about $15 million… And the Yankees’ offer wasn’t any stronger than the Rangers’.

  160. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 11:32 am

    # Chip December 21st, 2010 at 11:20 am

    West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 11:17 am
    Fans should not complain about teams asking for a lot when trying to make a deal with the Yankees. It’s the price we pay for having the highest payroll and resources other teams do not have due to the size of the market we play in as well as other factors like YES. The universe works that way, there is always a cost.

    ————————————

    It’s also a matter of perspective. As Yankee fans we’re biased to believe that our babies are the prettiest babies – other teams may not see a Brandon Laird or Eduardo Nunez as future MLB regulars let alone stars. Other teams may not view Brett Gardner as the next Brett Butler but instead as a nice complimentary player. Other teams may not consider what Joba was – they look instead at what he is.

    **************************

    I completely agree with that, good take. Those were all good examples. Also, I would say the same about the players in our farm system. If you read what’s written here by some, you would think Betances, Banuelos et al were the next coming of Gibson and Koufax and that Montero is a sure thing. Let me be clear, they are highly rated in our system, Montero even higher, with great potential. But if one looks at other teams farm systems, we are not in the top five. Kansas City is projected to have the top farm system in baseball in 2011.

  161. Erin December 21st, 2010 at 11:32 am

    Gossip break for anyone tired of complaing about the Yankees:

    http://justjared.buzznet.com/2.....uezs-kids/

  162. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 11:33 am

    MTU:

    More rain is on the way, been pouring here in CA for 4 days straight.

  163. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 11:33 am

    Again, whatever you have to tell yourself, guy.

    Both Beckett and DiceK were hurt ALL YEAR. If you feel they’ll both pitch to the same numbers, then I guess there is no arguing with you.
    I guess you probably feel like Jeter is markedly better, as is Tex and ARod bounce back, but no way we should expect the same from Boston?
    Are you even capapble of breaking down those numbers? Or, you’re just the all-knowing baseball guru, capable of knowing exactly what will happen with everyone, and have the ability to call it a “wash” between guys?

    You’re exactly what’s wrong with reasonable thinking.

  164. Yankee Trader December 21st, 2010 at 11:34 am

    Just what are the Yankee 2011 financial limits? Currently payroll was 144M before signings, raises, arbitration. Add 30M for Jeter and Rivera. Add around 10M for raises and arbitration. Add 8M for Martin and Feliciano. That’s currently $192 million. Needs-Two starters, a reliever [preferably EIG] and a bench.

    If Pettitte resigns for 14-15M, or we get Zambrano for the same[Cubs eating some $$$] the Yankees are at 206-207M before another reliever or bench.

  165. Prete Funk Era December 21st, 2010 at 11:36 am

    i wonder if Cashman is calling Sandy Alderson and inquiring about Johan Santana….. hmmmmm. Mets have a brutal division and it might just be crazy enough to work.

  166. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 11:37 am

    Vineyard, I agree about the pen, especially in light of this off-season and some obvious holes in the rotation.

    I would go all out after Soriano; if Cashman could convince Soriano to pitch here. The great thing about Soriano – is that we don’t have to trade away players we value. And, he would get to close on days Mariano rested. Or was injured.

    It would take a real sell job by Cashman, not just handing him a check and that is an area I don’t think he is strong in.

  167. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 11:38 am

    Forget Cliff Lee he is gone. Forget Pettitte, right now he is not on the roster. If he picks up the phone at a later date great if not, Andy Yogi and Whitey will have a blast at OTD.

    The future is now, rebuild the pen ! It only takes money and maybe a draft pick or two. No, I don’t wear rose colored glasses. (I believe some three legged idiot in FL made that one up)

  168. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 11:39 am

    In fact, from June 6 on, Lackey posted a 4.14 ERA with 7.1 K/9. He was truly terrible over his first 11 starts (4.95 ERA), decent in his next seven (4.53 ERA), then very good in his final 15. Even those final 15 can be broken into a very good nine starts (4.29 ERA) followed by an outstanding final six starts (3.46 ERA). There’s some cherry picking going on there, obviously, but it sure seems like Lackey was getting more and more comfortable as the season went along.
    But, maybe you’re right. I definitely see the “downward spiral”.

    I’m not lobbying for Lackey in any way, but to call it a wash is just short sighted and stupid. Dice K and Beckett are both going to win 12-16 games if healthy. A was this is not. Both Buchholz and Hughes could regress as well.

  169. heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 11:41 am

    YankeesNmore
    Phillies Offer – 5 yr plus vesting option
    2011: $11 million
    2012: $21.5 million
    2013: $25 million
    2014: $25 million
    2015: $25 million
    $27.5 million ($12.5 million buyout)

    Yankees Offer – 6 yr plus player option
    6 years $136 million (22.6 million AAV)
    $16 million player option for seventh year

    He left money on the table. You’re delusional

  170. Yankee Trader December 21st, 2010 at 11:41 am

    I certainly agree with rebuilding the pen with solid, quality arms, because other than CC and maybe Hughes, I don’t see any of the others giving more than 5 innings, which will be a huge burden on the bullpen.

  171. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 11:45 am

    don?t see any of the others giving more than 5 innings, which will be a huge burden on the bullpen.

    I agree completely. Even if they can pull off long relief moves, to shore up those games that Nova doesn’t get out of the second inning. This bullpen will be busy if Cashman goes to ST with the current rotation, so accounting for that makes all the sense in the world.

  172. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 11:46 am

    WCYF:

    I like Soria because he is younger but that is a reach. Soriano is great too if they can sign him. Mix in Fuentes, Balfour or Rauch and there you have it.

    Soriano, Rauch and Fuentes would be a nice fit with the Lee money. I would be very happy with that trio.

  173. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 11:50 am

    Vineyard – I don’t think we need all three, that won’t happen. We do have Mariano, Logan, Feliciano, Robertson, Joba and Mitre (long man). I’d be thrilled with Soriano and Rauch.

    Kansas City has said Soria is not available.

  174. J. Alfred Prufrock December 21st, 2010 at 11:53 am

    Chip December 21st, 2010 at 10:33 am
    Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 10:30 am
    Joba is a middle reliever.

    —————–

    He and Aaron Heilman should start a support group: One time phenoms who are now in pitching limbo.

    ////Except Chamberlain is 25 & Heilman’s in his thirties.as for the above “joba is a MR” comment,all I can say is, boy fella, ur just brimming with imagination,aren’t you?

  175. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 11:55 am

    Joba is a middle reliever until he proves himself capable of holding down another slot.

  176. Shame Spencer December 21st, 2010 at 11:55 am

    Just a thought: I love when people are like “we can’t start that pitcher! he can’t go more than 5 innings!” meanwhile right now we only have 3 starters, with numbers 4 and 5 (as of right now) giving us a total of 0 innings a piece.

  177. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 11:57 am

    J. Alfred Prufrock December 21st, 2010 at 11:53 am
    Chip December 21st, 2010 at 10:33 am
    Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 10:30 am
    Joba is a middle reliever.

    —————–

    He and Aaron Heilman should start a support group: One time phenoms who are now in pitching limbo.

    ////Except Chamberlain is 25 & Heilman’s in his thirties.as for the above “joba is a MR” comment,all I can say is, boy fella, ur just brimming with imagination,aren’t you?

    ————————-

    Heilman wasn’t always in his thirties genius.

    He was a promising young starter when he first came up with the Mets; they moved him to the pen and slowly moved him further and further from critical roles.

    Joba has actually seen his career regress much faster than Heilman did.

  178. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 11:58 am

    West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 11:55 am
    Joba is a middle reliever until he proves himself capable of holding down another slot.

    ———————-

    Which he doesn’t seem to care about. He seems quite content to pitch in the 6th and 7th innings and let other people do the heavy lifting. After all…Joba Rules right?

  179. jpb173 December 21st, 2010 at 12:05 pm

    I have this funny feeling that the Yankees wouldn’t mind being “forced” to use Joba Chamberlain as a starter. It just seems to me they are being “oatient” with the intention that they will plug in Joba as Pettitte’s replacement. If anyone asks them they will say they were “forced into that move by (1) Lee not signing and (2) Pettitte choosing to retire.

  180. jpb173 December 21st, 2010 at 12:06 pm

    “oatient”…should be “patient”

  181. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 12:06 pm

    Chip – regarding Joba, IMO, it’s a matter of him having the determination and “unwilling to fail attitude” necessary to become a significant player for the Yankees. He’s a grownup now. He has been the recipient of all sorts of coaching on his mechanics, strength and conditioning programs, nutrition advice, talks with Mo and countless other players council, I am sure.

    It’s time to just do it.

  182. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 12:07 pm

    sp – counsel

  183. Wave Your Hat December 21st, 2010 at 12:09 pm

    Although my high hopes for the team deflated considerably once Lee went south and Montero appeared Scranton-bound, there is considerable opportunity this year.

    Nova, Phelps, Mitchell and Noesi should all be given an opportunity to win a starting job out of spring training, two if Andy decides to retire. Close behind them, Betances, Brackman, Warren and Bleich. Maybe some of the other guys.

    If even two of those guys emerged as solid major league starters by the end of the year, 2011 will be a huge success no matter how far the team gets.

    Not Mitre. Not Zambrano.

    Kids.

  184. Shame Spencer December 21st, 2010 at 12:10 pm

    jpb makes a pretty good point actually. If they did think he could start, the worst thing to do would be to tell him they think that!

  185. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    Harden signed for $1.5 mill plus incentives. Really that was another arm they should have just gambled on for the pen. He has outstanding stuff and is young, it’s the injuries. As a reliever though I think he ends up going the Kerry Wood route for the rest of his career. Really between him or Prior, he is a much better bet to help out this year. Oh well.

  186. J. Alfred Prufrock December 21st, 2010 at 12:13 pm

    if that’s all he is after the blue chip promise he had, why should yankee fans have any confidence the new crop of pitching prospects won’t just be middle relievers too.

    kennedy and joba both underachieved. hughes as achieved what was expected.

    1 out of 3 isn’t so good.

    seriously, if cashman is throwing joba under the bus already , what commitment does he really have to young pitching ?

    i would think cashman should be on joba nonstop to get the best out of him. it appears the yankees are just taking what they get out of him. there doesn’t seem to be any major effort to bring out the best in him. they really do seem like they’ve thrown in the towel on him.

    ///his committment doesn’t extend past the comfort point.the yankees found out it actually takes some work to develope young arms and once it got difficult in the sense that it required some effort on their part they cried “uncle,” even though the guy is 25 and has 2008 in the books to tantalize even the worst skeptic I would say.part of the problem is everyone gives them a pass and seems to expend energy in piling on the player.

    For instance,who other than a handful here express a returning angst over this?ppl want that question to go away more than they want it answered with a real explanation,& that’s strange considering how much his development as a starter would have alleviated the current situation.so don’t the yanks get any heat for failing to rein the kid in?the “incorrigible” storyline gets accepted hook line and sinker & has been chattered back out into the blogosphere like the dutiful little fanboys many seem to be?

    how do the yanks get portrayed as the Wronged Martyrs of Sincere & Earnest Pitching Development,abused by the thriftless inebriated fat boy prospect that spits in the face of their best intentions?

    & you can’t say Kennedy’s a bust,he’s doig alright out in Arizona,he just didn’t have enough stuff to survive learning on the fly in the ALEAST when his control & command were off.ppl got mad at the guy because of some reflex response to an interview question for god sake and wanted him dealt on that basis alone,that’s the kind of kneejerk attitude that has no place in the intensive effort long road organizations are required to walk to develop their own guys to avoid chasing the cliff lees of the world.

    the saving grace on the two young ones in Trenton is they both have the stuff to get big leaguers out right now and are both polished.Betances even with his size has self-correcting smarts when he becomes unglued.if the yanks mess these two up they may as well cut bait altogether on development plans.

  187. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 12:17 pm

    Too much has been made of Joba and I think he has a good year to be honest. He blew up the scene when he first came up. He struggled as a starter, but I think most people fail to comprehend that very few power pitchers come up that quickly (not even a full year in the minors) and don’t struggle. They need to learn how to mix up pitches, etc. Look at stats for a lot of the best pitchers in the game their first few years. Halladay was sent back down. Cliff Lee was sent back to the minors only a few years ago. It happens, they need time to develop. The issue for the Yankees is, the bullpen was a problem. One because Joba wouldn’t go more than 5 innings in every start and the lack of bullpen arms at the time was the other issue. Now they have to face not having a true setup guy and looking at an aging Mo and have decided that he is much more important there and hope he goes back to what he was his first year. I still believe he has a good shot at being a starter, just not for this team the way it is constructed.

  188. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 12:17 pm

    Brandon Webb is expected to choose a team tonight . . Maybe its us .. . yeah .. i doubt it

  189. Bad Scooter December 21st, 2010 at 12:18 pm

    The Brett Gardner comparisons to Juan Pierre and Scott Posednik are not valid. I wouldn’t want Pierre leading off. The guy doesnt walk enough and hence his OBP is lower than it should be. Posednik OBP is even lower than Pierre’s. Gardner takes pitches, works the count, gets his share of walks and will get better as a hitter. The wrist injury affected him last year. I have no problem with him playing everyday, starting in LF and batting leadoff. Very solid in the OF and people that knocked his arm early on no longer do so. Don’t be surprised when his OBP is around .400 in 2011. If healthy and batting leadoff he’ll score close to 120 runs and steal about 70 bases. I’ll take it. Now if he could only learn how to bunt.

  190. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 12:19 pm

    Chip:

    Joba is content to follow the lead of others. After falling off of the mantle you would like to think that he would be assertive and take the bull by the horns. In actuality if he did step up he likely would be rewarded with a more prominent role on the team and more dollars come contract time. A win, win if he did that.

  191. blake December 21st, 2010 at 12:19 pm

    Wave,

    If viable rotation options don’t develop then I would rather them give the kids a chance as well….at least that way you’re building toward something and you’re keeping money aside if something opens up during the season ir at the deadline. If Pettite is there then that seems much more likely than if he’s not though. I can see them holding a competition amongst the kids for 1 spot…..im still not sure they would for 2. AJ Burnett has gotten a lot more important this winter…..they really need him to be better next year.

  192. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 12:19 pm

    Joba will be the EIG and a great one at that next season.

  193. J. Alfred Prufrock December 21st, 2010 at 12:21 pm

    jpb173 December 21st, 2010 at 12:05 pm
    I have this funny feeling that the Yankees wouldn’t mind being “forced” to use Joba Chamberlain as a starter. It just seems to me they are being “oatient” with the intention that they will plug in Joba as Pettitte’s replacement. If anyone asks them they will say they were “forced into that move by (1) Lee not signing and (2) Pettitte choosing to retire.

    ///I have written this myself a few times and really am hoping this is the under-the-radar plan.it makes sense that a new PC with a fondness for SOs might be the cure for some of Chamberlain’s woes.the guy should be a breath of fresh air with no joba karma on his resume and hopefully no fixed ideas of what he can’t accomplish.good read,I agree and it would really restore some faith in the intelligence of the FO for me.

  194. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 12:22 pm

    Brett Gardner will not be traded for a 6 ERA pitcher, 5 era reliever and journey man part-time outfielder. And not with Noesi in there.

    Marquis makes 7.5 million, sucks and is awful. He could be had for the likes of any crappy prospect because the Nats would be glad to be rid of him.

    If other teams don’t value Brett Gardner highly (which is a load, the white sox, padres, and royals value him as they have tried to trade for him the past 2 seasons), then he should be traded.

    You give up Gardner in a deal for a guy like Floyd or Danks, not to get a pile of slop from the Nats. Seriously, just awful trades, over and over again for no reason.

  195. blake December 21st, 2010 at 12:22 pm

    LGY,

    he has the talent to do so…..but that statement is a leap. However if that’s what the sabermetrics say then who am I to argue :)

  196. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 12:23 pm

    Now, this one may or may not have been mentioned, but who can’t see this happening.

    Mets strapped for cash. Yankees need a starter

    Johan not slated to start until mid season if healthy. Is he a trade deadline acquistion?

    If he proves healthy, would the Yankees be willing to eat a portion of Johan’s salary, say $15 per for the next few years and gamble on his health while not having to give up much in the way of prospects. Maybe a few lower level guys given Santana’s shoulder and contract?

    Even a depleted Santana is a good mid rotation guy, he’s still 31 years old and a lefty to face the heavily left handed lineup.

    Santana I think has a fill no trade clause. I doubt he would put up a fight to stay in CitiFields for a losing club and he would stay in NY so no move.

    Thoughts?

  197. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 12:24 pm

    blake,

    :lol:

    It’s a leap, but gotta make some bold predictions sometimes to keep things interesting ;)

  198. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 12:25 pm

    “But if one looks at other teams farm systems, we are not in the top five.”

    ———————–

    What 5 teams have a better farm system?

    The Yankees may not be top 5 at the end of the day but they certainly are in the mix.

  199. joe b December 21st, 2010 at 12:25 pm

    Yanks should contact SF about Barry Zito. He was a dominant pitcher in the AL (CY YOUNG WINNER) It has to be worth a chance, especially wit some of the players they have signed. They need a lefty to counter Boston’s power.

  200. Wave Your Hat December 21st, 2010 at 12:25 pm

    “If viable rotation options don’t develop”

    Barring Andy or a miracle trade by Cashman that lands a top-notch starter, I don’t want “viable rotation options” to develop outside of the kids.

    I don’t want the Yanks to fool around with Joba or Mitre, or lock themselves into an inflexible two year arrangement with Zambrano or someone else with a big contract.

    It would be fun to watch the kids. Give them all a chance, keep the ones that work and send the rest back to develop.

  201. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 12:26 pm

    Brett Gardner is a better defender than Juan Pierre, gets on base more, and has more power. Brett Gardner is a better defender than Scott Podsednik, gets on base more, and has less power and more speed.

  202. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 12:26 pm

    No way the Mets trade Santana to the Yanks .. Can you imagine the PR nightmare if Johan turns out to be a stud for the Yankees !

    I’d love to have him though

  203. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 12:26 pm

    West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 12:06 pm
    Chip – regarding Joba, IMO, it’s a matter of him having the determination and “unwilling to fail attitude” necessary to become a significant player for the Yankees. He’s a grownup now. He has been the recipient of all sorts of coaching on his mechanics, strength and conditioning programs, nutrition advice, talks with Mo and countless other players council, I am sure.

    It’s time to just do it.

    —————–

    I think Joba believes that if he just shows up, eventually he will be the closer of the Yankees.

  204. blake December 21st, 2010 at 12:27 pm

    Jerkface,

    Would you trade Gardner for Jurrjens if the Braves would do that deal……hypothetically.

  205. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 12:28 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock
    December 21st, 2010 at 12:13 pm

    Joba has had a couple of shots to become a SP, it didn’t work out. He had a chance to close and be the setup guy at different times and it didn’t work out either. The prospects are being groomed as starters until they get their shot to prove themselves otherwise. I doubt they will be dumped into middle relief until at such a time they fail.

    The Lee proposal as well as Greinke has shown the high value placed on SP which is why I believe the Yanks are drafting and developing there own stock now. As they say its pitching, pitching, pitching. You can never have too much.

  206. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 12:28 pm

    Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 12:26 pm
    Brett Gardner is a better defender than Juan Pierre, gets on base more, and has more power. Brett Gardner is a better defender than Scott Podsednik, gets on base more, and has less power and more speed.

    —————————–

    And my point remains – that Brett Gardner is unique in that he’s the only Yankee player/asset that has:

    a) Proven ability to play at the ML level
    b) not under a big contract
    c) not due a huge raise anytime soon

    And while I do like Gardner – I would be willing to move him and muddle through for a year with the likes of Damon or a platoon of Pods and Johnson.

  207. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 12:28 pm

    Gardner has more value to the Yankees next year than any other team which means he has limited trade value overall.

  208. Bad Scooter December 21st, 2010 at 12:29 pm

    Rank these guys in order of prospect status and their arrival time. Add anybody I forgot. (Age)

    Manny Banuelos (19) LH
    Andrew Brackman (25) RH
    Dellin Bettances (22) RH
    Ivan Nova (23) RH
    David Phelps (24) RH
    Hector Noesi (23) RH
    DJ Mitchell (23) RH
    Jeremy Bleich (23) LH
    Adam Warren (23) RH

  209. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 12:30 pm

    The Braves would never trade Jurrjens for him so that’s the first problem, they also went and got McClouth and were burned by him so don’t see them making another move. Especially after how good Melky did for them last year.

  210. clownthrowindown December 21st, 2010 at 12:31 pm

    The good thing about Joba as EIG is that it will cut down on Mo’s workload. Mo won’t have too many leads left to protect.

  211. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 12:31 pm

    And my point remains – that Brett Gardner is unique in that he’s the only Yankee player/asset that has:

    a) Proven ability to play at the ML level
    b) not under a big contract
    c) not due a huge raise anytime soon

    Which makes him incredibly valuable and you just suggested a trade which included Noesi and did not return anyone who would even be helpful at the major league level. You simply do not value him properly.

    You threw him a trade for Jason Marquis. We could probably get Jason Marquis for FREE. Just pay his salary.

    Scott Podsednik was traded for a 28 year old Carlos Lee!

  212. J. Alfred Prufrock December 21st, 2010 at 12:31 pm

    LGY December 21st, 2010 at 12:19 pm
    Joba will be the EIG and a great one at that next season.

    /Mike Francesa’d/Jean Afterman lackeyed/Brian Cashman coffee boy’d

    :D

  213. blake December 21st, 2010 at 12:33 pm

    Phranchise,

    The Braves need a CFer badly, Jurrgens is into his arb years, and they have a lot of pitching on the way on the farm. I don’t think it would happen and I said it was hypothetical but its not ridiculous IMO. Gardner would be a great fit with the Braves and would really help them.

  214. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 12:34 pm

    It’s is reality Prufrock. No matter how much you whine about Joba in the rotation he is going to be in the bullpen.

    So I may as well make my predictions based on the reality of the situation.

  215. Against All Odds December 21st, 2010 at 12:34 pm

    # randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 10:19 am

    “Vazquez had lost 3-4 mph off his fastball, for some unknown reason.”

    it seems like joba has too when he was starting. burnett even seems to have lost velocity.
    maybe there was a pattern there.

    we see lester and buchholz gain a lot of velocity over a couple of years and we don’t really see that happening on the yankees. was there something eiland and the organization was pushing that may have been a factor in the lack of velocity. yes hughes threw well, but maybe he was the exception.

    it would actually be good news if it was something eiland was doing, because he’s gone.

    i do know i’d rather have vazquez in the rotation right now that the way it is .

    i’m also puzzled what the yankees would have to lose by putting joba in the rotation to start the year. why not roll the dice on him. he could always go back to the bullpen at any time. i don’t see the downside of giving him a chance to start.

    it seems easier to pick up a reliever than a starter . also what does it tell joba about preparing for the season? your gm has already publicly given up on you ever being a starter . why should you get in great shape. you’re just a reliever anyway. what’s a few pounds if all you are going to do but throw an inning every other day?

    i really don’t get cashman’s handling of joba. he doesn’t seem to be doing anything to bring out the best in the guy. it’s almost like he’s given up on job ever being a star again.even if he has he should get him good enough to get a little successful run and then trade him .
    ————————————————————————————-

    Well I think Joba’s decrease in velocity is due to the injury he sustained in 2008. When he first joined the rotation that season his velocity was still very good and he would still throw hard in the 6th and 7th inning of games.

    I agree it is weird that Joba is not even an option to start games. Some fans suggested that the Yankees have determined he can’t hold up as a starter. My question is if that’s true why did they pass up on the opportunity to acquire Haren if all Joba is is a middle reliever?

  216. jpb173 December 21st, 2010 at 12:35 pm

    Phranchise, I simply don’t see the Mets dealing with the Yankees for a big name player under any condition. There simply is too much risk that the guy could straighten himself out and become a viable starter for the Yanks. If he did Mets fans would go ballistic.

  217. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 12:36 pm

    WCYF is crunching the numbers of his farm system report. Should be an interesting top 5 folks.

  218. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 12:36 pm

    Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 12:31 pm
    And my point remains – that Brett Gardner is unique in that he’s the only Yankee player/asset that has:

    a) Proven ability to play at the ML level
    b) not under a big contract
    c) not due a huge raise anytime soon

    Which makes him incredibly valuable and you just suggested a trade which included Noesi and did not return anyone who would even be helpful at the major league level. You simply do not value him properly.

    You threw him a trade for Jason Marquis. We could probably get Jason Marquis for FREE. Just pay his salary.

    Scott Podsednik was traded for a 28 year old Carlos Lee!

    ————————-

    Well I think that the Gardner part of the deal was more to get Detwiler who is a promising young LHP that could be part of the rotation right now.

    Taking back Marquis was more of an added incentive for the Nats to part with Detwiler.

  219. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 12:37 pm

    I remember being bothered by all the post-game YES locker room interviews with Joba when he got his clock cleaned. Invariably, his response was that he thought he pitched well. He didn’t get it.

    I hope he does now. He has a shot to go to camp in 2011 and work his butt off and be a dominant reliever out of the pen, consistently, all year. If he does so, Yankee fans will embrace him. If not, thee are no more excuses or people or policies to blame.

  220. J. Alfred Prufrock December 21st, 2010 at 12:37 pm

    The Yankees may not be top 5 at the end of the day but they certainly are in the mix.

    ///the system is producing eye-opening talent at all levels.if montero,betances & banuelos are in the bronx by 2013,barring injury of course,then one can say the yanks successfully hung onto and brought along those high level talents to lay down roots for another era of being consistently highly competitive.

  221. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 12:37 pm

    LGY December 21st, 2010 at 12:34 pm
    It’s is reality Prufrock. No matter how much you whine about Joba in the rotation he is going to be in the bullpen.

    So I may as well make my predictions based on the reality of the situation.

    ————————–

    Frankly I would rather see Joba traded at this point – but it’s impossible to do. He has just about bottomed out in terms of his trade value.

    In a couple of years he’ll be a non-tender candidate like Micah Owings and Zach Duke.

  222. J. Alfred Prufrock December 21st, 2010 at 12:39 pm

    LGY December 21st, 2010 at 12:34 pm
    It’s is reality Prufrock. No matter how much you whine about Joba in the rotation he is going to be in the bullpen.

    So I may as well make my predictions based on the reality of the situation.

    ///why are you wasting time here? Cashman wants his coffee! Go fetch it!

  223. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 12:40 pm

    I think Mets fans will go ballistic regardless. They have limited options and if they don’t fix it Reyes will be gone after this year. They have no farm system of note. So they only way is to free up cash somehow. Just think it works regardless of whether they want to move him here or not. Freeing up $15 million in cash flows the next few years certainly allows them to keep Reyes or put money into a few players if they lose him. Just a thought.

  224. J. Alfred Prufrock December 21st, 2010 at 12:40 pm

    ————————–

    Frankly I would rather see Joba traded at this point – but it’s impossible to do. He has just about bottomed out in terms of his trade value.

    ////yes, oddly enough with the yanks only too willing to shout out what a failure he was as a starter and decimating any shred of value he might have to a more imaginative team willing to get its hands dirty.it’s like 2008 never happened.

  225. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 12:41 pm

    LGY December 21st, 2010 at 12:36 pm

    WCYF is crunching the numbers of his farm system report. Should be an interesting top 5 folks.

    ****************

    I’m not crunching any numbers, I haven’t seen any 2011 rankings. I have heard a couple of analysts say that Kansas City’s farm system is at or near the top.

    I think the Yankees have good very good talent at certain positions and I anticipate them being in the top ten, perhaps somewhere in the 6-10 range. But that’s not based on anything factual.

  226. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 12:42 pm

    Considering as the coffee boy I get to make baseball decisions like Joba to the bullpen it is a pretty awesome gig.

    Free coffee AND decision making power!!

  227. Shame Spencer December 21st, 2010 at 12:43 pm

    WCYF – This isnt a dig at you my man but don’t you think nearly every comment on this blog should end with the phrase: “But that’s not based on anything factual.”? :D

  228. J. Alfred Prufrock December 21st, 2010 at 12:44 pm

    No matter how much you whine about Joba in the rotation he is going to be in the bullpen.

    ///btw we’ll see if the yanks are as dumb as you think they are and don’t in fact wipe the slate clean with the new PC and at least revisit the idea that he might be able to resurrect his career as a starter.

    And hell yea I can “while” all day long,the PR flacks have had control of these boards long enough,teling everyone how to think and rushing in to keep legit crticism off the FO.Some of us don’t have these little agendas and want to see the team put itself in position to win for years.that’s cos we’re yank fans,not miniature randy levines.

  229. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 12:44 pm

    NEW THREAD

  230. J. Alfred Prufrock December 21st, 2010 at 12:45 pm

    LGY December 21st, 2010 at 12:42 pm
    Considering as the coffee boy I get to make baseball decisions like Joba to the bullpen it is a pretty awesome gig.

    Free coffee AND decision making power!!

    ///nah,ur just a good little parrot,repeating what ur told.

  231. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 12:46 pm

    Shame Spencer December 21st, 2010 at 12:43 pm

    WCYF – This isnt a dig at you my man but don’t you think nearly every comment on this blog should end with the phrase: “But that’s not based on anything factual.”?

    **********

    Yes!

  232. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    Prufrock,

    I already told you I’m Jean Afterman last week. You gotta keep your Cashman lackeys straight ;)

  233. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 12:48 pm

    Well I think that the Gardner part of the deal was more to get Detwiler who is a promising young LHP that could be part of the rotation right now.

    I don’t know if Detwiler would succeed in the Yankees rotation. And I don’t think the Yankees would trade for him to find out. He has had control and strike out issues in the majors. He also gives up a lot of hits.

    If I traded Gardner, I think I’d want it to be for a more established pitcher.

  234. Shame Spencer December 21st, 2010 at 12:49 pm

    WCYF – So glad we agree!!

    But that’s not based on anything factual.

  235. J. Alfred Prufrock December 21st, 2010 at 12:50 pm

    LGY December 21st, 2010 at 12:47 pm
    Prufrock,

    I already told you I’m Jean Afterman last week. You gotta keep your Cashman lackeys straight

    ///nah you’ll never be that high on the totem pole.ur an also ran, working for ppl like her but never supplanting ppl like her. but you must make a mean cuppa,that’s why they keep you hangin’ around her skirts!

    Good afternoon now brother! :D

  236. randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 12:56 pm

    “Well I think Joba’s decrease in velocity is due to the injury he sustained in 2008. ”

    20
    23
    35
    40
    28
    62
    78
    88
    100
    114

    do you think this might have had something to do with it?
    notice the jump from 28 to 62.

    this was all in 4-5 weeks.

    it was dumb at the time and still is.

    i said at the time it could cause injury.

    it was too fast an increase in innings.

    but it was typical of rushing hughes, kennedy , and joba.

    this new batch of pitchers is really cashman’s last shot to develop starting pitching.

    no one will think he has a clue if he starts looking to a third batch after the second one mostly flops.

    my advice is to slow them down and err on too slow rather than too fast.

  237. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 12:59 pm

    I assume someone saw this already, so apologies if this is a re-post, but just saw it myself

    FOXSports.com has it that the Yankees tried to get Greinke back in July and were practically there but the hurler just didn’t want to be moved at that point. The site notes that Greinke could have moved to the Toronto Blue Jays as well but Greinke wasn’t interested in moving to Toronto.

  238. Against All Odds December 21st, 2010 at 1:11 pm

    # Shame Spencer December 21st, 2010 at 10:27 am

    I think the problem with Joba was the organization either never approached him or never approached him effectively about how dispensable he was/is.

    If I’m dealing with someone like Joba and I start to see how the pieces are falling this winter, I get him on the horn asap and say something like “If you don’t plan to come to spring training in good shape, ready to compete for a spot, don’t bother showing up. I’m sure there’s some desperate team in the NL Central willing to take a chance on ya, kid. Best of luck to ya!”

    Probably still a season too late to have that conversation but what the heck, right?

    ——————————————————————–

    I get it a little tough love to give him incentive. The problem is the last time they made him come in and compete was ST 2010. Did Joba in the back of his mind know that the battle was false and there was no one he could win? Therefire, he came into camp as is.

  239. Against All Odds December 21st, 2010 at 2:02 pm

    # randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 10:58 am

    “Joba is a middle reliever.”

    if that’s all he is after the blue chip promise he had, why should yankee fans have any confidence the new crop of pitching prospects won’t just be middle relievers too.

    kennedy and joba both underachieved. hughes as achieved what was expected.

    1 out of 3 isn’t so good.

    seriously, if cashman is throwing joba under the bus already , what commitment does he really have to young pitching ?

    i would think cashman should be on joba nonstop to get the best out of him. it appears the yankees are just taking what they get out of him. there doesn’t seem to be any major effort to bring out the best in him. they really do seem like they’ve thrown in the towel on him.
    ——————————————-

    A number of prospects a team has don’t live up to expectations. The problem is it seems like the Yankees had little patience with them once they stubbed their toe. Kennedy was pushed aside and traded, Hughes was pushed aside, Joba was given up on as a starter. Some of their lack of patience stems from the fan base expecting winners yr after yr. The pressure to win is so intense that prospects have to hit the ground running or the plug gets pulled kinda quick. Unfortunately that’s not the proper atmosphere for a prospect to develop. Can anyone honestly say that Joba or Kennedy do better or about the same as Mitre? Would they be looking under every rock for a starting pitcher if Joba was a starter and Kennedy was still on the team.

    Yes it doesn’t bold well for the next crop of prospects. Don’t let anyone fool you if Montero struggles at some point next yr all you’ll hear is “the yankees are down on Montero”

  240. Against All Odds December 21st, 2010 at 2:12 pm

    # Chip December 21st, 2010 at 11:14 am

    West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 11:11 am
    Joba had a shot last winter as well Chip. He came to camp having a chance to win the number five starter job and just didn’t get it done.

    ————————-

    That’s right – and he has another shot this winter.

    If he was a true competator he would have addressed the issues that cost him the job last spring so that he could come and try again this spring.

    His actions on the other hand strike me as a guy who is content to be a middle reliever and nothing more.
    —————————–

    What chance does he have when he was told by Cashman and Co during ST that he’s a reliever going forward and that’s it. Think about it this way before free agency started they all stated that Joba is a bullpen guy and nothing more. They left themselves no wiggle room if Lee went somewhere else and Andy retired. I’m not doubting that he takes part of the blame because he does but the Yankees take some of the blame as well.


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