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The unknown lefty on the Yankees roster

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 21, 2010 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

ph_477237Quick, who’s that guy in the picture on the right?

Turns out, that’s Steve Garrison, and whether you’ve heard of him or not, he actually is a member of the New York Yankees. Has a spot on the 40-man and everything.

Garrison has never thrown a pitch for the Yankees organization, but he was claimed off waivers from the Padres in September. The Yankees hadn’t seen very much of him when they made the claim, but he came highly recommended by Kevin Towers, the former Padres general manager who was passing the time in the Yankees scouting department.

“If Kevin Towers likes a pitcher, especially a bullpen guy, you have to listen,” Mark Newman said.

Garrison is 24 years old and he’s left-handed, which makes him standout in a Yankees system light on lefty relievers. Garrison has worked almost exclusively as a starter, and the Yankees haven’t decided whether to use him in the bullpen or the rotation in the minor leagues next season. His future, they believe, is as reliever, but he needs innings. Garrison features the standard set of four pitches — fastball, changeup, curveball, slider — and the Yankees are still figuring out which of those might be most effective for him in relief.

For a guy on the 40-man, Garrison remains something of an unknown commodity, but he comes from a trusted source, and the Yankees will get their first long look at him in spring training.

“There’s something there to like,” Newman said.

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349 Responses to “The unknown lefty on the Yankees roster”

  1. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 12:46 pm

    “I think the Yankees have good very good talent at certain positions and I anticipate them being in the top ten, perhaps somewhere in the 6-10 range. But that’s not based on anything factual.”

    ——————–

    WCYF,

    You said definitively the Yankees are not top 5. So I am assuming then you know 5 teams with better farm systems.

    I am not sure if the Yankees will be top 5, so if someone else on knows 5 better for sure I am curious to read about it.

  2. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 12:56 pm

    Thanks Chad–For a minute there, I was worried about the bullpen.

  3. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 12:57 pm

    The Rays and Royals will be in the Top 5. I assume a team like the Rangers will be there. The A’s and Braves get rated highly.

    Most of the top system lists come out in January. I expect the Yankees to be within the Top 10 as almost everyone kicked ass up and down the system.

  4. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 12:58 pm

    The kid has a better chance of sticking with the club than that guy Fish they picked up in the Rule 5 I reckon.

  5. randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 12:59 pm

    “Well I think Joba’s decrease in velocity is due to the injury he sustained in 2008. ”

    20
    23
    35
    40
    28
    62
    78
    88
    100
    114

    do you think this might have had something to do with it?
    notice the jump from 28 to 62.

    this was all in 4-5 weeks.

    it was dumb at the time and still is.

    i said at the time it could cause injury.

    it was too fast an increase in innings.

    but it was typical of rushing hughes, kennedy , and joba.

    this new batch of pitchers is really cashman’s last shot to develop starting pitching.

    no one will think he has a clue if he starts looking to a third batch after the second one mostly flops.

    my advice is to slow them down and err on too slow rather than too fast.

  6. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    I can’t tell you who will have the best system but I’ll bet a dollar right now on Mike Trout being the number one prospect in all of baseball.

  7. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 1:01 pm

    I wonder what it would take to get Paul Maholm? Would a package of Nova and a prospect get it done if the Yankees also offered to take back Ryan Doumit’s salary?

  8. blake December 21st, 2010 at 1:01 pm

    One team that wont be in the top 5 if there is any legitimacy to anyone’s rankings is those free spending big market red socks.

  9. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 1:01 pm

    “Most of the top system lists come out in January. I expect the Yankees to be within the Top 10 as almost everyone kicked ass up and down the system”

    Yeah, I would too. Only rankings there seems to be a consensus on at this point are #1 (Royals) and #30 (Brewers).

  10. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    Blake -

    How can Boston be in the top 5 – they just gave up the best prospect who ever lived…Casey Kelly

  11. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 1:04 pm

    LGY – it’s not an exact science as you are I am sure aware and there are many rankings which will differ. I don’t think they are in the top five based on where they were last year and what I have read and heard about the impact players coming up through other teams farm systems.

    Kansas City is a good example, having read a lot about them lately when Greinke was a hot topic. They have some great arms like John Lamb and Mike Montgomery, as well as position bats like Eric Hosmer, Will Myers and Mike Moustakas. Atlanta’s got Julio Teheran, Freddie Freeman, Randall Delgado, Mike Minor, etc. Tampa Jeremy Hellickson, Matt Moore, Desmond Jennings, Jake McGee, Josh Sale. Even Cleveland has some studs with Chisenhall, Kipnis and White. Then you have the Rangers as well.

    We have some excellent talent, so do other clubs.

  12. blake December 21st, 2010 at 1:04 pm

    Chip,

    His.legacy alone could land them in the top 10.

  13. RayVT December 21st, 2010 at 1:07 pm

    Chip December 21st, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    Maybe Lars Anderson converts from a can’t miss 1B slugger to a dominant 8 pitch SP prospect even better than Casey Kelly!

  14. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 1:08 pm

    I wonder if Theo threw a hissy fit about dealing Kelly like he did over Han Ram in the Beckett trade.

  15. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 1:08 pm

    do you think this might have had something to do with it?
    notice the jump from 28 to 62.

    this was all in 4-5 weeks.

    That was kind of a silly list. For those that didn’t know, that was the amount of pitches Joba threw in 2008. Joba threw 40 pitches, got 4 days of rest, threw 28 pitches, then got 5 days of rest and prepared as a starter and threw 62 pitches.

    PITCHES. Not innings. If a pitcher can’t handle throwing an extra 20 pitches well then I don’t know what the heck.

    look at right after that

    62, 78, 88, 100, 114. Perfectly fine progression. And a starter has to start somewhere. Guys come into spring training and drop 50-60 pitches their first time out. Its a normal amount.

  16. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 1:09 pm

    It will be interesting to see how many Top 100 the Yankees get.

    I think Montero, ManBan, Betances, Brackmonster, and Sanchez are all definitely going to be Top 100.

    Will be interesting to see if Romine gets bumped this year or a guy like Noesi can slip in.

  17. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 1:10 pm

    If anything Randy, the yankees were very conservative with Joba. He threw 2 innings in relief with about 30 pitches (very good) and then got 3 days of rest. Then threw 40 and got 4 days of rest. He only pitched back to back once. Before being converted to a starter.

  18. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 1:11 pm

    Perhaps in an effort to increase the Red Sox prospects ranking, ESPN prospect lists will include Adrian Gonzales and Carl Crawford–since they have not played yet for the Red Sox. That should put them in top 5.

  19. joe b December 21st, 2010 at 1:12 pm

    Yanks should contact SF about Barry Zito. He was a dominant pitcher in the AL (CY YOUNG WINNER) It has to be worth a chance, especially wit some of the players they have signed. They need a lefty to counter Boston’s power.

  20. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 1:12 pm

    Was this already reported and I missed it? Interesting at least.

    FOXSports.com has it that the Yankees tried to get Greinke back in July and were practically there but the hurler just didn?t want to be moved at that point. The site notes that Greinke could have moved to the Toronto Blue Jays as well but Greinke wasn?t interested in moving to Toronto.

  21. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 1:12 pm

    Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 1:08 pm
    do you think this might have had something to do with it?
    notice the jump from 28 to 62.

    this was all in 4-5 weeks.

    That was kind of a silly list. For those that didn’t know, that was the amount of pitches Joba threw in 2008. Joba threw 40 pitches, got 4 days of rest, threw 28 pitches, then got 5 days of rest and prepared as a starter and threw 62 pitches.

    PITCHES. Not innings. If a pitcher can’t handle throwing an extra 20 pitches well then I don’t know what the heck.

    look at right after that

    62, 78, 88, 100, 114. Perfectly fine progression. And a starter has to start somewhere. Guys come into spring training and drop 50-60 pitches their first time out. Its a normal amount.

    —————-

    The only number increase that has hurt Joba Chamberlain’s development is the one that measures his waistline.

  22. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 1:13 pm

    Barry Zito???? Please tell me that is a joke.

  23. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 1:14 pm

    Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 1:10 pm
    If anything Randy, the yankees were very conservative with Joba. He threw 2 innings in relief with about 30 pitches (very good) and then got 3 days of rest. Then threw 40 and got 4 days of rest. He only pitched back to back once. Before being converted to a starter.

    —————————

    It’s the way they converted him to a starter that I have a problem with. He never should have been pitching those “stretch out games” with the Yankees. They should have sent him to Scranton where the games don’t matter; not sacrificing real games for the sake of his development.

  24. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 1:15 pm

    Phranchise -

    Its not a bad idea ,, Alot better than whats left .

  25. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 1:15 pm

    joe b December 21st, 2010 at 1:12 pm
    Yanks should contact SF about Barry Zito. He was a dominant pitcher in the AL (CY YOUNG WINNER) It has to be worth a chance, especially wit some of the players they have signed. They need a lefty to counter Boston’s power.

    —————————

    If San Fran was willing to take back nothing of consequence and absorb 90% of the money left on Zito’s contract I would consider it.

  26. joe b December 21st, 2010 at 1:16 pm

    He was a dominating pitcher in the AL. Most pitchers who come to the NL from the AL have problems. He was a dominant pitcher for the As.

  27. heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 1:16 pm

    LOL yea Zito, cause we should take the money not spent on Cliff Lee, and waste it SOMEWHERE

  28. blake December 21st, 2010 at 1:16 pm

    Barry Zito would be an absolute disaster in the AL East and that contract makes it even worse. Id take on that contract if they’d throw Bumgardner in as well.

  29. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 1:16 pm

    Depending on how he holds up in the first half I might target Aaron Harang (now of the Padres) as someone to look at come June/July

  30. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 1:16 pm

    How bad is Zitos contract . . .whats left on that bad boy

  31. joe b December 21st, 2010 at 1:17 pm

    Hey, Beggars can’t be choosey

  32. The Genius Maker December 21st, 2010 at 1:18 pm

    I haven’t posted in awhile, but I have a quick question. Everyone keeps saying that Lee took less money to go to Philly (even chad), but when I saw the contract it had guaranteed money if it is only a 5 year deal. the numbers I saw would amount to 6 year 147.5 deal (24.58/yr) or 5 year deal at 132 (26.5/yr) when the extra money is put in! Is this correct?

  33. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 1:19 pm

    Mike – including a 7 mil buyout – $64.5 mil between now and 2014

  34. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 1:19 pm

    wow . .Thanks Chip .

  35. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 1:19 pm

    I threw Santana out there if he proves healthy. He is a perfect salary dump which would require limited prospects. Now whether the Mets would trade him in town is the question, but they have no market out there willing to take on the salary and the injury risk he has shown the last two years. He would be a deadline deal for the Yankees if he could prove he can pitch.,

    Zito has nothing on his fastball which was limited to begin with, but makes his offspeed far less offspeed. He’s owed 18.5, 19, 20 over the next three years which is crazy. And he just wasn’t cutting it against NL lineups, how would he fair against the AL ones. I would ask the Giants to throw in one of their blue chips just to eat some of that salary.

  36. blake December 21st, 2010 at 1:20 pm

    Zito has 3 years and almost 60 million left before the Giants can decline his option.

  37. Vineyard Yankee December 21st, 2010 at 1:20 pm

    Build the pen. NOW CASHMAN !

  38. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 1:21 pm

    ’s the way they converted him to a starter that I have a problem with. He never should have been pitching those “stretch out games” with the Yankees. They should have sent him to Scranton where the games don’t matter; not sacrificing real games for the sake of his development.

    I disagree, he pitched a cumulative 25 IP in those 5 ‘stretch out games’ and had a 1.80 ERA.

    He was really good for the final 3 actually. And had they not stretched him out in the majors the 2 games prior those outings would have been lost.

    18.1 IP .98 ERA in the final 3 ‘stretch games’

  39. heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 1:22 pm

    Genius -

    the Lee contract is 5 yrs guaranteed with a 6th year option that vests if he hits a number of IP. The Yankees offered him 6 yrs guaranteed with a player option (essentially 7 yrs guaranteed). The Phillies gave him a higher AAV. If they decline the option its 120M, if they pick it up its ~137M

    Meanwhile the Yankees guaranteed ~153M

  40. randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 1:22 pm

    the only reason i can see that the yankees would not try joba as a starter is if they know something is physically wrong with him that would preclude starting.

    i’m actually not that concerned about the starting pitching if pettitte comes back , but the more i think about joba the more i wonder if cashman isn’t really an imbecile with developing pitching .

    no one else seems to think so , but i have no doubt he ruined wang and if he ruined joba with rushing him, how many guys does he have to ruin before the yankees get someone who knows what they are doing with developing starting pitching.

    the problem with assigning blame is that injuries can be so random that it’s hard to find a pattern and say any one injury was caused by doing something incorrectly.

    it’s all going to get down to opinion about cashman’s development of pitching.
    my opinion is that that out of the three B’s, cashman had better get some serious success or else it’s time for a new job.

    no more kicking the can down the road. develop or else.

  41. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 1:22 pm

    Wandy Rogriguez would be a nice pick up .

  42. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 1:22 pm

    My problem with Joba is that they put him in the pen to begin with.

  43. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 1:22 pm

    Rodriguez

  44. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 1:22 pm

    Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 1:19 pm
    I threw Santana out there if he proves healthy. He is a perfect salary dump which would require limited prospects. Now whether the Mets would trade him in town is the question, but they have no market out there willing to take on the salary and the injury risk he has shown the last two years. He would be a deadline deal for the Yankees if he could prove he can pitch.,

    Zito has nothing on his fastball which was limited to begin with, but makes his offspeed far less offspeed. He’s owed 18.5, 19, 20 over the next three years which is crazy. And he just wasn’t cutting it against NL lineups, how would he fair against the AL ones. I would ask the Giants to throw in one of their blue chips just to eat some of that salary.

    —————————

    Phranchise -

    Even if the Mets did entertain dealing Johan – they’re not dealing him to the Yankees.

    It would be a PR nightmare for them.

  45. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 1:23 pm

    Genius Maker:

    Lee’s deal:

    5 years for $120M
    or
    6 years for $135M

  46. joe b December 21st, 2010 at 1:23 pm

    Zito AL record 102-63, NL record 40-57. He is an AL pitcher and the Yankees play in the AL. Most AL pitchers suck when they come to the NL.

  47. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 1:23 pm

    Wandy would be, but we can rest assured the Astros would still ask for Monetro and if not him Banuelos and Romine. I would end the conversations there.

  48. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 1:24 pm

    Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 1:21 pm
    ’s the way they converted him to a starter that I have a problem with. He never should have been pitching those “stretch out games” with the Yankees. They should have sent him to Scranton where the games don’t matter; not sacrificing real games for the sake of his development.

    I disagree, he pitched a cumulative 25 IP in those 5 ’stretch out games’ and had a 1.80 ERA.

    He was really good for the final 3 actually. And had they not stretched him out in the majors the 2 games prior those outings would have been lost.

    18.1 IP .98 ERA in the final 3 ’stretch games’

    ——————–

    It’s not about how Joba pitched – it’s about what it did to the rest of the team. Because Joba was only making short starts the Yankees had to blow out their pen to finish games, meaning they wouldn’t have relievers available the next day for a pitcher who needed them and so on…

  49. heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 1:25 pm

    joe b – how much of those W-L stats come from the AL/NL difference, and how much is him just not being any good since he signed that contract? The NL record wasn’t because he’s seeing stronger lineups or anything….he just flat stinks now. IDK what happened

  50. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 1:26 pm

    Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 1:22 pm

    My problem with Joba is that they put him in the pen to begin with.

    ***************

    That is because Joba proved that he didn’t have the temperament, demeanor and ability to be a successful starting pitcher according to the Yankees evaluation.

  51. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 1:26 pm

    Phranchise —

    you think they’d ask for Montero ? for Wandy ,,,, would you fork up Romine for him

  52. Lost December 21st, 2010 at 1:26 pm

    Been awhile since I checked in:

    Pett:

    Unless someone/something can convince him to come back.. he’s pretty much done. I’d say chanced are 85/15. For those that are giving him a hard time, about not making a decision.. wake up. He’s been upfront about his status with Cash since the EOS (end of season). Just because you don’t hear it in the media, doesn’t mean a damn thing.

    Greinke:

    Yanks would’ve been “more” willing to take the risk for Greinke had they not have had to include Montero. They just didn’t seem to get creative and some in the FO feel that was another blunder. Plus Greinke would’ve accepted a trade to NYY. If Greinke couldn’t make it in NY he’d still have high trade value for other clubs. There were disagreements on just how much of a risk it was (i.e. worst case scenario if it didn’t work out. what would his trade value be).

    State Of The Pinstripes:

    The backup plan if we didn’t sign Lee was to shift to focusing on offense. Yes, that was Crawford, but put bluntly, Redsox out maneuvered the Yanks in both price and stealth.

    Next up:

    There’s really not much out there for us right now. We really counted on Lee.. Essentially we were willing to overpay in both dollars/years due to market talent/demands and the fact that our “plan B” was signed.

    Not much more coming our way, mediocre talent and a very small possibility that we get sprinkled with some magic ferry dust.

  53. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 1:27 pm

    Any interest in trying to trade for Scott Kazmir?

    Not the most reliable fellow either in terms of health or productivity; but has pitched in the AL East (well at times) and only has one year left on his deal.

    Frankly I’m torn given that to me he often appears to be the American version of Oliver Perez, but in the back of the rotation he might be alright – of course I don’t know what the Angels would want for him. But the question is more, is he worth exploring?

  54. blake December 21st, 2010 at 1:27 pm

    From what I read the Yankees guarantees 7/148 with the final year being a player option. Lee really didn’t leave a significant amount of money on the table…….all three deals were comparable.

  55. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 1:28 pm

    It’s not about how Joba pitched – it’s about what it did to the rest of the team. Because Joba was only making short starts the Yankees had to blow out their pen to finish games, meaning they wouldn’t have relievers available the next day for a pitcher who needed them and so on…

    Whoever was going to cover those games to begin with would be used. They have a long-man.

    Joba 4.1 IP
    Dan Giese 2.2 IP
    Jose Veras 1 IP
    Rivera 1 IP

    Joba 2.1 IP
    Giese 3.2 IP
    Veras/Edwar/Britton

    They didn’t have to over use any of their A relievers. So I get it if you disagree with the philosophy, but the actual execution did not hurt the yankees.

  56. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 1:28 pm

    Chip, just think beggers can’t be choosers. They would have to swallow some pride to make the deal. But if they don’t, they had no money to spend this year which means they won’t next year unless they make amove. Reyes is a free agent. So if they let him walk, that’s a PR nightmare, but by riding themselves of Johan’s backended deal over the next three years it is huge. Bay there is no market. Wright there is, but can’t do that. They have no prospects. And the Yankees are the only big market team that I think would take the money and the risk, the Sox wouldn’t, Angels won’t even pay the money for healthy guys, there is no one left really as a trade partner. It makes sense for both teams. Except for the PR thing, but the downside is play season’s for years where the team is bad and Johan doesn’t sell tickets day in and day out. Wright and Reyes do. Just as Arod, Tex and Jeter due as CC pitches ever 5 days.

  57. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 1:28 pm

    Wandy Rodriguez is a free agent after this year. Not sure he’d be available now, but when the Astros crap out early, he probably will be come July. Should not cost the high end prospects.

  58. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 1:29 pm

    Whatever the reason for Joba’s failure the end result is that he’s right now a failure.

    No better than other guys who came up with hype and flamed out:

    Micah Owings
    Zach Duke
    Tom Gorzolony
    Homer Bailey
    Ryan “Space Needle” Anderson

  59. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 1:29 pm

    That is because Joba proved that he didn’t have the temperament, demeanor and ability to be a successful starting pitcher according to the Yankees evaluation.

    No, I mean in 2007. Torre whined about the bullpen and forced Cashman to bring up Joba to placate him. He was a college pitcher who absolutely thrashed the minors and was untouchable as a starter. As he was coming up to his inning limit, they put him in the pen to give Torre a lock down reliever and test Joba at the major league level.

    The problem with that is that most Yankee fans got their first taste of Joba as a reliever. He should have just made his starts in scranton, got shut down, and came into 2008 ready to build innings at AAA / make some emergency starts in the majors.

  60. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 1:30 pm

    thanks Mell

  61. blake December 21st, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    Chip,
    Not really.

  62. heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    blake – depends on whats “significant.” He prob gave up at least 15M, and gambled another 15M that he’ll stay healthy into year 6 of this contract. The Yankees certainly offered more guarantees.

    But if its true he wanted Philly all along, and he really believed with money “enough is enough” – they definitely gave him a good enough offer to turn down the Yankees

  63. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 1:32 pm

    Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 1:28 pm
    Chip, just think beggers can’t be choosers. They would have to swallow some pride to make the deal. But if they don’t, they had no money to spend this year which means they won’t next year unless they make amove. Reyes is a free agent. So if they let him walk, that’s a PR nightmare, but by riding themselves of Johan’s backended deal over the next three years it is huge. Bay there is no market. Wright there is, but can’t do that. They have no prospects. And the Yankees are the only big market team that I think would take the money and the risk, the Sox wouldn’t, Angels won’t even pay the money for healthy guys, there is no one left really as a trade partner. It makes sense for both teams. Except for the PR thing, but the downside is play season’s for years where the team is bad and Johan doesn’t sell tickets day in and day out. Wright and Reyes do. Just as Arod, Tex and Jeter due as CC pitches ever 5 days.

    ——————————

    At the end of this year the Mets have the contracts of Oliver Perez, Luis Castillo, Frankie Rodriguez and Carlos Beltran coming off the books.

    They’ll probably re-sign Reyes but that leave them with plenty of money to be players in the FA market if they desire.

    My suggestion to them would be to make a hard push for either Prince or Pujols and then trade Ike Davis for a starting pitcher to go with Johan, Pelfrey and Niese.

  64. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 1:32 pm

    I think the Astros would ask for Montero. Would I part with Romine? Probably if it didn’trequire more pieces. I just think Cashman is waiting the market out in hopes demands from other teams come down and buys time for guys like Romine to solidify their standings as top level prospects so packages not invloving Montero and some other guys they want to keep become more attractive.

    Wandy doesn’t make much money. If the Astros can’t get him to sign an extension I think they may move him. I think the discussions are a little like the rumors that were floated a few years back of moving Matsui to the Giants for Sanchez before he blew up. Just think Rodriguez would make a very nice 4th or 5th starter.

  65. jacksquat December 21st, 2010 at 1:33 pm

    Garrison > Zito

    And I haven’t seen him pitch either…

  66. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 1:33 pm

    Another issue is that Joba so terribly stunk in the second half in 2009 that he basically killed his chances as a starter going forward. His complete inability to deal with a pitch limit ruined him.

  67. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 1:34 pm

    blake December 21st, 2010 at 1:31 pm
    Chip,
    Not really.

    ——————

    Blake -

    It wouldn’t shock me at all if a couple of years from now when he’s up for arbitration we start hearing about Joba being a non-tender candidate.

    Some of the blame can go to the shoulder/pec injury but I don’t think we’ve seen anything out of Joba that says he’s looking to improve himself. It’s almost as if he believes that “Joba Rules” is something that’s going to stick with him forever.

  68. heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 1:34 pm

    Chip, what do you think would get it done to pick up Kazmir? The Angels have pitching depth…I’m not sure how successful he’d be but he’s young enough where I gotta think he could have a chance to turn it around. IDK what his contract details are either…

  69. blake December 21st, 2010 at 1:34 pm

    Lost,

    Just seems the Yanks aren’t really pressing the issue this winter….maybe they are behind the scenes. If they spoke with KC at the winter meetings then reports were that they didn’t after…..why?

  70. blake December 21st, 2010 at 1:35 pm

    Chip,

    I was talking about kazmir

  71. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 1:36 pm

    blake December 21st, 2010 at 1:35 pm
    Chip,

    I was talking about kazmir

    ————

    My bad

  72. disco stu December 21st, 2010 at 1:37 pm

    “Any interest in trying to trade for Scott Kazmir?”

    Chip – I posed this on a previous thread yesterday. It could make some sense considering the season he just had and the fact that he is a FA after next season (no long term commitment, just like the Javy Vasques re-acquisition last year).

    The fact that he is left handed and only 28 is attractive also – maybe a change of scenery might do him good. If the Yankees agreed to pay his entire 2011 salary, they probably would give up less in prospects in exchange for him.

  73. 4 NYY December 21st, 2010 at 1:37 pm

    Pitchers today are so babied, it’s not even funny !!!

    Go back 30-40 yrs. and see what they did. With 3 days rest !

    They were not on the DL even close { or “in the ballpark” close } to what today’s pitchers are.

    Guys won’t throw today with a hangnail.

  74. Bronx Jeers December 21st, 2010 at 1:37 pm

    Developing pitching?

    IT”S A PROCESS ! :lol:

  75. joe b December 21st, 2010 at 1:37 pm

    29-30 the last 2 months of the season. They baked in to the playoffs. Yew they swept Minny but that’s a given every year. Now wit one legit starter they need to take chances. Nobody, I repeat Nobody is going to outright help the Yankees. Zito may be their only option. Even Texas may consider Zito.

  76. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 1:37 pm

    “Just think Rodriguez would make a very nice 4th or 5th starter.”

    Probably would be. He’ll make close to $8M this year as an Arb 3. He’ll be 32 on Opening Day. Not sure whether the Stros plan to commit long term, but if not then they should be making him available as a rental at mid season. They can’t realistically expect Montero or any of the B’s IMO. Think they like their young catcher, Castro, so I don’t know if they’d have interest in Romine. Probably want some pitching.

  77. MTU December 21st, 2010 at 1:38 pm

    Lost-

    Are you saying that the Yankees are accepting the idea of going into the season with Nova and another rookie at the back end of their rotation ?

    Also, Have you heard anything on upgrades to the BP from outside the organization ?

    If nothing much else is coming our way the outlook for the coming season is dismal.

    Thanks for any info. you may be able to provide.

  78. 4 NYY December 21st, 2010 at 1:38 pm

    We need some young studs, not has beens for even a year.

  79. blake December 21st, 2010 at 1:38 pm

    Heyman,

    He’s gambleing on himself a bit more in the Philly deal but he still is getting comparable money to what the other teams offered and the highest AAV of any pitcher in history. I just wonder if the Yanks had guaranteed 7/168 or something like that if it would have mattered……I don’t know that it would have and more than that I don’t know if a contract like that would have been such a great idea anyway.

  80. heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 1:39 pm

    If Texas wants Zito, they can have him

  81. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 1:40 pm

    Phranchise– Thanks for the response

  82. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 1:40 pm

    heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 1:34 pm
    Chip, what do you think would get it done to pick up Kazmir? The Angels have pitching depth…I’m not sure how successful he’d be but he’s young enough where I gotta think he could have a chance to turn it around. IDK what his contract details are either…

    ——————–

    No clue. The Yankees and Angels don’t really match up well as trading partners.

    The Angels need OF and 3b help and with the exception of Gardner the Yankees don’t have either to offer.

    I wouldn’t trade Gardner straight up for Kazmir but if I could get Kazmir and a prospect for him I would probably do that. Maybe Gardner and a mid level guy for Kazmir, Andrew Romine and Juan Rivera to provide some RH power off the bench?

    Then sign Johnny Damon to play LF?

  83. MTU December 21st, 2010 at 1:40 pm

    Zito.

    Isn’t that some type of pasta ?

    Can’t be a pitcher can it ?

  84. heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 1:41 pm

    Blake,

    Yea I completely agree. When I saw the numbers I honestly didn’t see much of a difference in the contracts. Some offers were obviously more creative. I still doubt the money made a difference. Even if it would have, 7/168 or something like that scares the hell out of me, even tho I understand he’s been a great post season pitcher

  85. blake December 21st, 2010 at 1:41 pm

    Nobody is considering Zito…..the Giants wish they didn’t have to most likely.

  86. randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 1:41 pm

    “Another issue is that Joba so terribly stunk in the second half in 2009 that he basically killed his chances as a starter going forward”

    if lee and hallway both had to go back to the minors why couldn’t joba to relearn how to start?

    obviously starters are hard to find. why not try it as a calculated gamble? if it works you have a starter. if it doesn’t you have a reliever which is where they are now so i don’t see the downside.

  87. randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 1:41 pm

    “Another issue is that Joba so terribly stunk in the second half in 2009 that he basically killed his chances as a starter going forward”

    if lee and hallway both had to go back to the minors why couldn’t joba to relearn how to start?

    obviously starters are hard to find. why not try it as a calculated gamble? if it works you have a starter. if it doesn’t you have a reliever which is where they are now so i don’t see the downside.

  88. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 1:42 pm

    Chip, that is true, but you do need to replace those guys somehow as they are all starters.

    Plus Santana’s deal was backloaded, his salary goes up each year. He goes from 21-22.5-24-25.5.

    I imagine Bay’s is the same. His salary I think goes from 6.5 million to 16 next year and beyond.

    Pelfrey is arbitration eligible so they will have to pay him.

    So between resigning Reyes and these other issues, it’s not quite so straight forward unless they increase payroll.

    I doubt revenues go up unless they have a miracle season this upcoming year to actually draw attendence.

  89. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 1:43 pm

    if lee and hallway both had to go back to the minors why couldn’t joba to relearn how to start?

    obviously starters are hard to find. why not try it as a calculated gamble? if it works you have a starter. if it doesn’t you have a reliever which is where they are now so i don’t see the downside.

    I would be up for this. However, I think the Yankees are more likely to just use him as a reliever, considering all the young pitching they have coming up.

  90. 4 NYY December 21st, 2010 at 1:43 pm

    Back end, front end, or the middle, they’re all starters. And after a certain point, they’re pitching every 5th day.

    Many times your “ace” doesn’t perform as well as another starter.

    You just put em’ in a certain order and hope for the best and a surprise or two.

  91. charlestonchew December 21st, 2010 at 1:44 pm

    Honestly, Joba isn’t doing too well in the bullpen right now. Slotting him back into the rotation might be worth a try, since we’re not really relying on him like we used to anymore.

    He’s still got some pretty nasty pitches and if he can mix them up, he can be a good ML starter. I’d like to see them try it.

  92. heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 1:44 pm

    Chip,

    You must rly want Johny back huh? lol

  93. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 1:46 pm

    If you look at Joba, he’s no different than a lot of pitchers who came before him and will come after. The reasons for him underperforming are not singular and where he is right now is a result of all of them. You can say he was brought up to soon, mishandled, poor coaching, was stubborn, out-of-shape, wouldn’t/couldn’t take direction, etc……

    …the bottom line is he is where he is right now, the past is past and his future is in his hands. It is up to him to show he has the ability (and to me that is defined as being able to repeat his delivery, be composed, have command of his pitches and stay in shape) to pitch at this level.

    He can go out there and just be a shut them down relief pitcher. That’s what the team need him to do. No more excuses or analyzing the past and wondering why.

  94. KPB December 21st, 2010 at 1:46 pm

    MTU

    Did you send me an email yesterday?

  95. MTU December 21st, 2010 at 1:47 pm

    Randy-

    My concern with Joba starting is that he shown no inclination to get himself into tip top shape.

    Even when he knew he going to have to compete for a starting job.

    I agree with CB’s take that in Joba’s case the extra weight he is carrying affects him adversely in terms of being able to repeat his
    delivery.

    The possible cure. return to the stud muffin he was in 2007.

    Would he do that ? Not likely.

    He’s busy writing his own ticket to oblivion. I’m sorry that he is.

    I used to be one of his biggest supporters but he simply has not taken responsibility for himself yet.

    Maybe he loves spending too much time with his son.

    He is, after all, a single parent.

  96. 4 NYY December 21st, 2010 at 1:48 pm

    No more Damon, forget Zito, Kazmir, and others who have gone down hill so far.

    We’ve got some good young guns, let’s see em’ !!!

  97. Lost December 21st, 2010 at 1:48 pm

    I should not have sounded so drab and dreary. Just because you are not hearing about much in the media doesn’t mean that there isn’t any activity. What you are reading about in the media is Cash acting as if there is no urgency. Cash hasn’t given up by any means, he’s still looking to make somethings happen, but not with the prices set so high for mediocre quality.

  98. MTU December 21st, 2010 at 1:49 pm

    KPB-

    I think I sent you pics.

    Going out again soon to brave the Great Western Flood.

    Catch you later Poncho (no, not the rain gear type).

    :)

  99. 4 NYY December 21st, 2010 at 1:49 pm

    Joba wears too many “Moma genes.”

  100. joeman December 21st, 2010 at 1:50 pm

    serious..best place for joba is to move him, just as long as he goes thru a inning clean he’s OK….men on base he’s done.(RP or SP)

  101. Betsy December 21st, 2010 at 1:51 pm

    Randy, if Joba’s attitude is “well, I’m just a reliever, so I’m not going to work hard”, then I’m sorry – I want him off the team. What kind of an attitude is that? It’s not the Yankees fault if he’s an immature pitcher who feels entitled to a certain role.

    That said, although I don’t love Joba, I agree that the Yankees have done a poor job developing SP. It’s yet to be determined if Phil is going to live up to his hype as a potential #1 starter, but at least he’s in the rotation. Giving up ona 25 year old is pretty stupid and I admit that it makes me question the committment to developing kids. Why is it that Joba has one “bad” year, which wasn’t THAT bad and he gets relegated to the pen? Cashman has no more patience, it seems, than George did.

    I saw your comments about velocity……. I remember Phil on this board saying that Hughes would pick up velocity with the warmer weather – and he never did. In fact, his velocity decreased……….So, hopefuly Rothschild can help with that or perhaps he was fatigued. Still, he’s about to be 25 – I can’t see him adding velocity at this point. AJ is probably who he is- he’s not going to add any more MPH at age 33.

  102. 4 NYY December 21st, 2010 at 1:52 pm

    Isn’t today’s popular phrase ” Going forward ” ( NOT looking back ? )

  103. jacksquat December 21st, 2010 at 1:54 pm

    Kazmir is owed 12 mil in 2011, and there is a 2.5 mil buyout for 2012 (or 13.5 mil salary). He had a 5.94 ERA in 28 starts.

    I’ll pass. I’d rather take my chances with Freddy Garcia.

  104. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 1:54 pm

    Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 1:42 pm
    Chip, that is true, but you do need to replace those guys somehow as they are all starters.

    Plus Santana’s deal was backloaded, his salary goes up each year. He goes from 21-22.5-24-25.5.

    I imagine Bay’s is the same. His salary I think goes from 6.5 million to 16 next year and beyond.

    Pelfrey is arbitration eligible so they will have to pay him.

    So between resigning Reyes and these other issues, it’s not quite so straight forward unless they increase payroll.

    I doubt revenues go up unless they have a miracle season this upcoming year to actually draw attendence.

    ————————-

    Well I think they replace Beltran by moving Pagan to CF and calling up Fernando Martinez to play RF

    Castillo they replace with Ruben Tejada/Danny Murphy

    Perez they don’t need to replace since he’s really just dead money.

    K-Rod they can replace with Mejia

    In any case – we’re a long way from the Mets having to make those decisions which means we’re a long way from the Mets concluding that they have to put Johan Santana on the block. Even if they do – I’m not so sure I want to trade for a very expensive pitcher with declining velocity and questionable health.

  105. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 1:55 pm

    Does it count if the Yankees pitchers are pitching for other teams? One of the issues with the Yankees is the ability to develop excellent pitching. They have certainly developed a string of 4 and 5 starters, but whom were not good enough for the Yankees.

    And their draft position has to have something to do with that.

  106. Wave Your Hat December 21st, 2010 at 1:56 pm

    “I’d rather take my chances with Freddy Garcia.”

    I’d rather take my chances with David Phelps.

  107. KPB December 21st, 2010 at 1:56 pm

    MTU

    Resend if you would. Your name showed up twice in the sender column. It looked strange, so I deleted it without opening it.

  108. 4 NYY December 21st, 2010 at 1:57 pm

    So many of these guys are juiced and breaking down. HGH for all ! No test for it allowed by union.

  109. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 1:57 pm

    heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 1:44 pm
    Chip,

    You must rly want Johny back huh? lol

    —————–

    I wouldn’t say that – I just use him as an example of a way that Gardner (if traded in the right package) could be replaced.

    Put Damon back in the 2 spot in Yankee Stadium and you’ll see very different production than you did last year from him in Comerica.

  110. Chuck December 21st, 2010 at 1:58 pm

    Thank god Cliff Lee is a true team player and only accepted 25 million a year. Phew!

    For a second, I thought the guy just wanted money.

  111. jacksquat December 21st, 2010 at 1:59 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 21st, 2010 at 1:56 pm
    “I’d rather take my chances with Freddy Garcia.”

    I’d rather take my chances with David Phelps.

    That works too.

  112. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 2:00 pm

    Put Damon back in the 2 spot in Yankee Stadium and you’ll see very different production than you did last year from him in Comerica.

    But what if you don’t? He actually hit awfully bad on the road last year. Worse than at comerica. What if he is simply old and starting to be done? He never had a very good swing, one handing the bat more often than not. He was in a division where he had the luxury of facing the Royals and Indians pitching in an unbalanced schedule and he had one of his worst years. 37 year old Johnny Damon ? I dunno. He only hit .154 at the stadium.

  113. Bronx Jeers December 21st, 2010 at 2:00 pm

    So it seems the Yanks just might be coming home from the prom with the class cow.

    Fans might be disappointed but I wonder what the Yankees “clients” will think?

  114. heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 2:00 pm

    Chip,

    Just a joke, I thought it was funny b/c your posts have a tendency to include Gardner on the way out, and JD making a return. But after seeing that Kazmir is owed 11M for the season, I think that pretty much eliminates him. No really worth it. Already overpaid for Vazquez last season

  115. G. Love December 21st, 2010 at 2:01 pm

    From what Lost posted it’s safe to assume that the front office, including ownership, is not happy with the plan put in place by Cashman. The interesting thing Lost wrote was about lack of creativity in trade discussions with KC for Greinke.

    That was long one of my criticisms of Cashman. He appeared only to be able to target obvious targets and never seemed to really pull the rabbit out of his hat.

    The failure of the front office this off season goes back to last off season.

    I’ve said it a hundred times, but there was plenty of notice in the 2010 season that this rotation was crumbling and needed new pieces.

    Cashman was myopic with Cliff Lee and let some possible additions fall by the wayside while lusting after the obvious target.

    I don’t think it makes me a negative fan to look at the rotation today and say quite confidently that it won’t cut it. We’ve seen what happens here with a flimsy rotation before. The bullpen gets burnt to a crisp before June. The hitters/offense fail and start to press when the starting pitching falls behind early in the game giving way to the tired bullpen.

    This is the pattern that this current rotation will set for the season unless we get 2 capable starting pitchers into the rotation.

    Personally, I don’t love that Nova pitched in winter league. All that tells me is he’s been throwing all year and has the potential to be tired and not last for 180 innings or more which is what we’re counting on from him today.

    As incredible of a job Cashman did in 2009 to get the players the team needed to make a title run, I truly believe he’s done a terrible job since then to address the rotation outside of shooting for the moon with Lee and Hallyday over the past two years.

    I have no problem with shooting for the moon. I want my GM to do that.

    But when he can’t close the deals this is what happens to your team.

    We’re basically crossing our fingers that a 39 year old man who suffered a groin injury and missed half the season last year and who really wants to retire will come back to put the rotation into some kind of order.

    Having to depend on that is poor planning and Cashman gets an F from for his plan to build the team for this year.

    The off season isn’t over yet and I expect the Yankees to do something, but as it stands right now it’s been an abysmal off season for this team.

    They are clearly weaker in the rotation and the bullpen.

    And any of you thinking the AA prospects are going to jump to the majors next year and be lights out don’t watch baseball year in year out.

    Developing pitching takes time and patience and the guys in the system some of you think are can’t miss are years away from being rotation pieces on a championship caliber team.

    What’s going to happen here is this — the rotation will struggle if it stays as is. The bullpen will be toast from overuse and then Cashman will be forced to trade all the prospects you adore for middling starting pitching when the team starts to tank in the standings.

    The only thing, at this point, you can hope for is miracles where Betances, Brackman and Banuelos somehow come up to the majors from AA and defy all odds and pitch to their ceilings.

    I tend to think once the team struggles and falls far enough behind the competition early on Cashman will blow up the minors and trade for average starting pitchers who can provide innings.

  116. jacksquat December 21st, 2010 at 2:01 pm

    Chip, the problem with Damon isn’t so much his bat, it’s his defense. Gardner is just a more valuable player, plus he can play center (very well) if something happened to Granderson.

    I thought we were down to just one female wanting Damon back?

  117. randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 2:01 pm

    “That was kind of a silly list. For those that didn’t know, that was the amount of pitches Joba threw in 2008. Joba threw 40 pitches, got 4 days of rest, threw 28 pitches, then got 5 days of rest and prepared as a starter and threw 62 pitches.

    PITCHES. Not innings. If a pitcher can’t handle throwing an extra 20 pitches well then I don’t know what the heck.

    look at right after that

    62, 78, 88, 100, 114. Perfectly fine progression. And a starter has to start somewhere. Guys come into spring training and drop 50-60 pitches their first time out. Its a normal amount. ”

    i must be a flipping genius from making predictions based on silly lists because i was screaming at the time that joba would be injured and he was.

    as someone who has worked with pitchers on rehab and in preparing them for the season, my instinct said it was way to much for joba and it turned out that way.

    there is a specificity of a situation and joba had been a short reliever for a while. starters who come into spring training are starters. i don’t see how starters are prepared in spring training has anything to do with stretching out a young short reliever to being a full starter in 4 weeks.

    it was a brain dead too much too soon gamble and cashman and the yankees lost. joba’s never been the same since.

    i used to run a lot 10- 15 mile runs for a few years in my 30′s and a woman who held the london half marathon record who trained where i ran told me that you shouldn’t increase your milage more than 10 % a week or you’d eventually get injured. when you’re running 20 miles a week, you can only add 2 miles the next week . that’s an annoyingly slow increase when you’re trying to get your milage up there.

    i think it’s the same thing with young pitchers. the increase has to be annoyingly slow.
    it wasn’t with joba.
    it was annoyingly fast.

  118. Chuck December 21st, 2010 at 2:02 pm

    Damon? What position or place on the bench will he play?

  119. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 2:02 pm

    I wouldn’t trade Gardner just to open a spot for Damon, especially given the free agent market for outfielders in 2012 and the lack of outfield talent on the yankees minor league system.

    Damon to a bench spot? I already said I don’t think he’d do it, but if he came at a very cheap price I guess it couldn’t hurt.

  120. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 2:02 pm

    Chip, I hear you, just think it’s possible to give up lower level prospects without the core guys, pay $15 ish a year for the remainder of Santana’s salary and take that risk. For a guy that is a big game pitcher, lefty and if he is anywhere close to even the pitcher he has been the last few season is a #3 here. Anyway, just looking for options. The Mets obviously structred these deals knowing what was on the books so I don’t think they can do much with the money coming off the books anyway unless they let Reyes walk. Given Tulo’s deal a month ago, Reyes is going to want 18 or more per year, that’s at least 7 more per year. Castillo’s money goes right to Pelfrey. Also just checked Wright’s deal. He goes from 10 last year to 14 then 15 and then 16. Sp either the Mets let Reyes walk or they need to free up cash by dealing Santana. Omar definitely built a team to win now with the players they have. They are in really poor shape if they are truly strapped for cash.

  121. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 2:02 pm

    Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 2:00 pm
    Put Damon back in the 2 spot in Yankee Stadium and you’ll see very different production than you did last year from him in Comerica.

    But what if you don’t? He actually hit awfully bad on the road last year. Worse than at comerica. What if he is simply old and starting to be done? He never had a very good swing, one handing the bat more often than not. He was in a division where he had the luxury of facing the Royals and Indians pitching in an unbalanced schedule and he had one of his worst years. 37 year old Johnny Damon ? I dunno. He only hit .154 at the stadium.

    ————–

    Damon wasn’t awful last year – .271, .355 OBP – his big drop was in slugging which would go up when he sees 318 in RF.

  122. charlestonchew December 21st, 2010 at 2:03 pm

    Phil Hughes could learn something from Clay Buchholz. Despite allowing a similar number of baserunners, Hughes allowed far more runs. Hughes struck out more hitters and allowed only 1 unearned run to Buchholz 10 unearned.

    The difference seems to be that Buchholz was able to pitch with runners on base with more poise, perhaps using groundball pitches with greater success. Hughes also allowed FAR more homeruns, 25 as compared to 9. If Hughes can pitch better out of the stretch and stop allowing HRs at home, he can really turn into a big pitcher.

    How many times last year did Hughes pitch a brilliant five or six innings, only to give up a 3R HR near the end of his start? It felt like just about every game. But the kid is developing really well. He’s a few years behind Buchholz and I expect that he can put up similar numbers (maybe not AS good) this year.

  123. heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 2:04 pm

    I think in most places Damon would be viewed as a bench player at this point. I think the Yankees could get him for the bench, but even then I’m not sure he fills a need

  124. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 2:04 pm

    Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 2:02 pm
    I wouldn’t trade Gardner just to open a spot for Damon, especially given the free agent market for outfielders in 2012 and the lack of outfield talent on the yankees minor league system.

    Damon to a bench spot? I already said I don’t think he’d do it, but if he came at a very cheap price I guess it couldn’t hurt.

    —————–

    I wouldn’t trade Gardner to open up a spot for Damon either.

    I would trade Gardner if it got me a pitcher though. And then I would look to Damon to fill that spot.

  125. Erica in NY December 21st, 2010 at 2:05 pm

    jacksquat December 21st, 2010 at 2:01 pm
    Chip, the problem with Damon isn’t so much his bat, it’s his defense. Gardner is just a more valuable player, plus he can play center (very well) if something happened to Granderson.

    I thought we were down to just one female wanting Damon back?

    ****************

    That’s me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Hehehe :-)

    Sign Johnny Damon!!!!!!!

  126. heyman_sux December 21st, 2010 at 2:05 pm

    **I didn’t mean JD was a bench player as much as NOT a full-time player

  127. RayVT December 21st, 2010 at 2:06 pm

    Betsy December 21st, 2010 at 1:51 pm

    Picking up speed on a fastball can be as simple as a tweek in delivery. It is not unusual for a young pitcher to hit a wall near the end of a season like Hughes did IMO and lose a few mph on the fastball. Phil had never pitched that many innings before.

    Joba’s inconsistent delivery has caused him to pick up some bad habits of overthrowing and depending too much on his slider. AJ was pitching great and then he has a black eye & the pitching coach takes a sabatical. I think AJ needs tuning whether from a pitching coach or another pitcher (like Halladay did).

    I think the new pitching coach will help significantly. I hope Joba gets a chance as a SP again with the Yanks!

  128. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 2:07 pm

    I would love Johnny back if Posada wasn’t the DH

  129. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 2:07 pm

    jacksquat December 21st, 2010 at 2:01 pm
    Chip, the problem with Damon isn’t so much his bat, it’s his defense. Gardner is just a more valuable player, plus he can play center (very well) if something happened to Granderson.

    I thought we were down to just one female wanting Damon back?

    ——————-

    Again, I’m not advocating moving Gardner simply to bring in Damon. What I’m saying is that if the Yankees could get a pitcher for Gardner I would do it and then I would try to sign Damon to a 1 year deal to come in and play LF.

    I hear what you’re saying about his glove and I agree – Cashman would need a guy on the bench – a Greg Golson type – who can come in late in games as a defensive replacement.

  130. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 2:08 pm

    there is a specificity of a situation and joba had been a short reliever for a while. starters who come into spring training are starters. i don’t see how starters are prepared in spring training has anything to do with stretching out a young short reliever to being a full starter in 4 weeks.

    i used to run a lot 10- 15 mile runs for a few years in my 30’s and a woman who held the london half marathon record who trained where i ran told me that you shouldn’t increase your milage more than 10 % a week or you’d eventually get injured. when you’re running 20 miles a week, you can only add 2 miles the next week . that’s an annoyingly slow increase when you’re trying to get your milage up there.

    i think it’s the same thing with young pitchers. the increase has to be annoyingly slow.
    it wasn’t with joba.
    it was annoyingly fast.

    You’re talking about a system of increasing pitches that every pitcher does every season. Joba was not a reliever for a long time. He relieved for 2 months after coming into spring training as a starter. You seem to forget that. He prepared as a starter and was put into the bullpen. Cashman specifically stated it is easier for a starter to relieve than a reliever to start. If a pitcher cannot handle throwing 20 more pitches than the previous week, then they are not built to be a starting pitcher. Johan Santana and Billingsley seemed to transition fine.

    Once again, you pull out a really stupid analogy that doesn’t have any merit in the argument. Pitchers can only increase by 10%? So it will take an entire year just to get them up to 100 pitches then right?

  131. Betsy December 21st, 2010 at 2:10 pm

    Ray, I agree about why Phil lost velocity – that’s common sense – but he didn’t pick up velocity as Phil (forget which Phil it was) insisted he would. I think he’s just a guy that throws 92-93 for the most part; Buchholz has always thrown harder. I’m not that concerned about the velocity, to be honest- just his secondary pitches.

    I think AJ will probably be better, but that’s not saying much. I admit, however, that I am looking forward to seeing the impact Rothschild will have on this staff.

    I think Joba is never going to start for this team again – not as long as Cash is in charge.

  132. MTU December 21st, 2010 at 2:10 pm

    KPB-

    I sent it again.

    Gotta run. Catch you later.

  133. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 2:12 pm

    Why are we arguing about why Joba has been a bust? The fact is that for any number of reasons:

    Injury
    Poor work ethic
    Poor development planning by the Yankees
    ever tightening pants

    Joba is what he is – an average middle reliever with the trade value of an average middle reliever and not what he was supposed to be – a dominant starter. And from what I’ve seen, he has no desire to turn that around.

  134. 4 NYY December 21st, 2010 at 2:13 pm

    Joba can’t start for Yanks. Needs to get in shape and give what he’s got in relief !

  135. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 2:14 pm

    And from what I’ve seen, he has no desire to turn that around.
    ——–

    And for that I say “screw him” and move on…Maybe Romulo Sanchez will have the desire that Joba lacks.

  136. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 2:14 pm

    Joba isn’t going to start !! that ship sailed a long time ago

  137. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 2:15 pm

    Its impossible to increase your pitch count by 10% and be an effective major league starter. Unless you start at an arbitrarily high point.

    50
    55
    60.5
    67
    73.5
    81
    90
    99

    You’ve just wasted 25% of a major league season, and thats starting at 50!

  138. RayVT December 21st, 2010 at 2:15 pm

    Betsy December 21st, 2010 at 2:10 pm

    I agre Betsy & I am afraid you are right about Joba & why as well. To me it is a win-win thing to have Joba compete as a starter again. Even if he has to go back to releiving he will have built up arm strength again.

    Also, I hear folks talk about Joba being out of shape. One doesn’t have to be in shape to pitch, but one does have to have their legs in shape! Joba needs to run more.

  139. blake December 21st, 2010 at 2:15 pm

    If real upgrades can’t be aquired for the rotation then Id rather then go with youngsters than to barrel scrape just to get a couple of veterans. 1) that rarely works out well and usually you wind up going in another direction anyway 2) it would be more fun to watch the kids and actually be building toward something. Real upgrades or kids……no Garcias or Millwoods or Brandon Webbs.

  140. 108 stitches December 21st, 2010 at 2:16 pm

    I’ll bet that as it stands right now, none of the 29 other GM’s would figure that Chamberlain is the centerpiece or “must have” in any deal with the Yankees or the deal is cancelled.
    Simply put, his stock has taken a downward spiral.
    Let’s see if Larry Rothschild can perform miracles with him assuming he’s part of the Yankees when pitchers and catchers report on February 15.

  141. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 2:19 pm

    Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 2:14 pm
    Joba isn’t going to start !! that ship sailed a long time ago

    ———————-

    And what infuriates me is that there is still an opportunity for him to start.

    When reports surfaced that Andy was leaning towards retirement I would have been on the phone with Girardi and Rothschild in a heartbeat, “Skip, what do I have to do to get in the mix for the starting job? You said last year Phil got the last spot because his secondary stuff was better than mine; Larry, can you and I set up some time down in Tampa for me to work on some things.”

    I would have been busting my butt all winter long to get into shape and build the stamina that a starter needs.

    Joba did nothing.

    What a waste.

  142. Wave Your Hat December 21st, 2010 at 2:19 pm

    Whether or not Joba could start for the Yanks, he isn’t going to.

    The Yankees have plenty of good starters who pitched at the AAA level last year. After Andy these should be the first options the Yanks look to in filling any empty rotation slots.

    If one doesn’t work out, move on to the next. One or more of them WILL work out.

    It’s the next best option after missing out on Lee. Better than spending big bucks and long commitments on the free agent starters who were available other than Lee.

  143. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 2:20 pm

    blake December 21st, 2010 at 2:15 pm
    If real upgrades can’t be aquired for the rotation then Id rather then go with youngsters than to barrel scrape just to get a couple of veterans. 1) that rarely works out well and usually you wind up going in another direction anyway 2) it would be more fun to watch the kids and actually be building toward something. Real upgrades or kids……no Garcias or Millwoods or Brandon Webbs.

    —————-

    Blake – I wouldn’t hand the job to youngsters but if a guy like Phelps or Brackman comes into Tampa throwing lights out I would certainly give him the opportunity to beat out a Freddy Garcia for a starting job and then put Garcia in the pen.

  144. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 2:21 pm

    If I were the Yankees. Get Willy Aybar signed for the bench. Put Nunez back in the minors to get at bats. Let Curtis be your fourth OF for the time being. The guys out there aren’t worth it. Damon won’t want to be a bench guy and you can’t put him out there defensively. Go after Gregg, Soriano or Fuentes with deals in hand you would be happy with warning them that whomever takes the deal first gets what was offered, then rip up the other two offers. Then try to get one more arm, Rauch, Heilman, Cruz someone just to get some veteran depth for a one year deal. Andy is really the key to the starting pitching. If he is back and Nova slots in at 5 so be it, otherwise garcia on a one year deal. See how all this plays out and then figure out the trade market in season.

  145. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 2:21 pm

    I agree Chip !

  146. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 2:24 pm

    Hughes is right where he needs to be. Velocity is up slightly and down slightly, but he is a location guy. When everything is working he could be throwing 91 and still be breaking bats. He has good movement on the fastball and deception. When he had bad starts it was not being able to spot pitches and getting balls up in the zone. he progressed as well as anyone could have hoped last year after everyone jumping on the Joba train and calling Phil a bust.

  147. SoS December 21st, 2010 at 2:25 pm

    ever tightening pants

    ***********

    And thus leading to the offseason changes. Joba on the Seefood diet. Its worked for the Babe, Boomer and C.C.. Concluding with the new line of baggy uni’s to make sure he has breathing room in all the wrong places and guaranteeing his success.

    He will be entering the stadium to the song

    Pants on the ground
    Pants on the ground
    Hat turned side ways

  148. Wave Your Hat December 21st, 2010 at 2:26 pm

    Interesting that the Yanks passed on Bill Hall. For the price I’m surprised.

  149. blake December 21st, 2010 at 2:28 pm

    Chip,

    You don’t have to hand anyone a job….let them all fight it out in ST and the best man or men win.

  150. Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 2:29 pm

    Phranchise-

    What worries me about figuring out the trade market in-season is … Teams will hold us hostage.. Lets say we’re in a tight race ,,, with the Sox . .or for the Wild Card . . and the difference between us and the playoffs is a starter !

    Teams will TAX us big time . Look at last year. We had Danny Haren . .that fell through . .We had Cliff Lee . .that fell through. . its not easy.

    Thats why .. The “trade” ( if one happens ) needs to happen soon

  151. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 2:30 pm

    I also found very funny that Sherman was calling Hughes lazy during his rookie year. The kid has been reporting early to spring training and working out heavily during the last few offseason. He has put the work in. What they need is the younger guys to create a workout group like the one Arod started with Cano. Also Long always seems committed to the offseason and going to visit guys. There were no such stories with Eiland. Long flew down to work with Cano. They need these guys all to be driven the same way.

  152. The Genius Maker December 21st, 2010 at 2:30 pm

    Thanks for the responses on the contract, but it sounds like you guys aren’t sure either. the 5 year 120 had a guarantee of 12.5 if the club didn’t bring him back for the 6th year so it is really a 5 year 137.5 deal.

    As for Cashman; you have to remember just because we have money does not mean you should spend it and lock down guys for years. What you do is wait for the 27 year old guys like Tex and CC and lock them up for their prime years. I was in favor of pursuing lee, but going after a 32 year old guy and giving him money for his no prime years is less comfortable. Especially for a guy who was in the minors a few years ago.

    People who want to trade Gardner and bring up Damon don’t understand the game. Gardner is way better than Damon and it is not even close. In fact, before Gardner hurt his wrist, he was as almost as good as Crawford…yes this is true. Gardner had an OPS of .821 and had more SB’s, but then dropped after the injury. Now, can Gardner keep that up for a full season? Maybe not, but I can tell you that he is a very good all around player, when you take his defense and the runs he saves you there as well as a decent arm and all his extra bases he gets at the plate. If he can give us an OPS of .780, he will steal 50 bases which adds about 80 points to your OPS and with his defense that is a heck of a player.

  153. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 2:32 pm

    “Interesting that the Yanks passed on Bill Hall. For the price I’m surprised.”

    Scuttlebut was that Hall was looking to land where the most playing time was available. Looks like the Stros are giving him a regular gig.

  154. JobaTipsHisCap December 21st, 2010 at 2:32 pm

    I think Yanks will fight for WC in 2011.

  155. YankeesNmore December 21st, 2010 at 2:33 pm

    So now we’re supposed to get excited about some sack-of-crap salvaged off the waiver wire?

    Great offseason, Mr. Cashman.

    I look forward with great anticipation to our NEXT general manager.

  156. blake December 21st, 2010 at 2:34 pm

    I don’t think anybody wants to trade Gardner just for the sake of trading him.

  157. randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 2:34 pm

    speaking of buchholtz i don’t remember him throwing 95 in his early days, the way he seemed to at times last year.

    farrel was a big time locate the fastball guy.

    if farrel was joba’s pitching coach i don’t think you’d have seen as many sliders form joba.i think he would have had him throw more fastballs and work on location.

  158. Wave Your Hat December 21st, 2010 at 2:35 pm

    “Scuttlebut was that Hall was looking to land where the most playing time was available. Looks like the Stros are giving him a regular gig.”

    Scuttlebut usually says that though. Hall would have played a lot in NY. For another $500K? I suspect the Yanks didn’t try for him for whatever reason, but he would have made a good back-up infielder/4th outfielder.

  159. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 2:35 pm

    “Thanks for the responses on the contract, but it sounds like you guys aren’t sure either. the 5 year 120 had a guarantee of 12.5 if the club didn’t bring him back for the 6th year so it is really a 5 year 137.5 deal.”

    The $120M guaranteed thru five year, includes the 6th year buyout at $12.5M. If they don’t buy him out, he’s on the books for $27.5M in the 6th year, running the maximum amount of the deal to $135M.

  160. jacksquat December 21st, 2010 at 2:35 pm

    I agree with Chip that now would be a very opportune time for Joba to work and talk his way into becoming a starter again next season.

    But even as a mediocre/good reliever he will make several million in the majors, and maybe he is content with that.

  161. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 2:35 pm

    Joba is 25 and has 3 more years of team control left.

    The Yankees have no reason and should have no incentive to give up on him.

    Giving up on young players at their lowest point is a recipe for disaster, especially in Joba’s case where his raw statistics were inflated (to what degree is we do not know) by a ridiculously high batting average on balls in play.

    I remember last year how once the Yankees acquired Granderson, people wanted to trade Gardner for basically anything.

    The Yankees shipped off Melky who proceeded to be maybe the worst qualified OF in baseball this year, stuck with Gardner, and it worked out great.

    Joba has 3 years to get his act together and for his performance to show up on the field. Selling low should not be an option, unless a trade that really makes sense comes along.

  162. SoS December 21st, 2010 at 2:36 pm

    I keep hearing only trade for Josh Johnson or Felix. Surprised Kershaws name wasnt put on that list. How about more realistic pitchers such as
    Billingsly, any of the white sox pitchers, Maybe Cane?. We dont need an Ace. We need a solid 3/4. It was only 2 years ago that we won the World Series with 3 pitchers with one Ace.

  163. blake December 21st, 2010 at 2:36 pm

    Everyone assumes that the Red Sox are going to stay healthy and that Beckett, Lackey, and Papelbon are going to be better…..why is this such a safe assumption?

  164. Wave Your Hat December 21st, 2010 at 2:37 pm

    “So now we’re supposed to get excited about some sack-of-crap salvaged off the waiver wire?”

    Other than Lee there was no one that particularly excited me, so if excitement was the goal Cashman was in a tough spot.

  165. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 2:37 pm

    Mike Ri,

    I agree, but don’t think it is any different than now. Say the Yankees get Andy back, even with what they have today, they are probably the second best team in the AL. I think that is pretty safe to say, even if you want to argue Texas without Lee, they should be in the driver’s seat for the Wild Card. So the only thing that happens is team’s that drop out will be looking to move guys. Cashman will have half a season to go back and forth with teams over trade proposals. And at the end of the day the extra Tax for us will be limited. There will be no one in the Yankees class this year as far as cash and prospects available to make a trade happen. Now who will be available is the question. But if Felix ever was put out there he would be no more pricey that he could be right now. I am sure if Cashman could get a deal done for Felix, Verlander, Josh Johnson or someone he would, but they aren’t available and not for the price tags.

    Basically if you read between the lines, we failed in the offseason to address our needs. It may end up costing us this year, although we feel we will still have options to fix this through the year. If the options don’t arise so be it, but we won’t mortgage our future for marginal short term players.

    So I am becoming more ok with the fact that this season may go south for the Yankees on the belief they won’t mortgage their future unless we get a future stud in return.

  166. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 2:37 pm

    Thankfully, I was able to scour Lohuds archives and find that Joba went into the bullpen after pitching 28 pitches and threw until he reached 50.

    Thus making the progression

    40
    50
    68
    88
    90
    100

    And torpedoing Randy’s point :(

  167. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 2:37 pm

    Wave:

    Hall is the Stros 2nd baseman. Barring injury, he gets 500 AB’s easy. He’d struggle to get half that with the Yankees.

  168. randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 2:39 pm

    “You’ve just wasted 25% of a major league season, and thats starting at 50!”

    how is it a waste if the young pitcher is healthy in the end?

  169. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 2:39 pm

    SoS, I think those names are the ones that come up because really those are the only ones that justify the Yankees moving their top level prospects. Even if we went for veterans, teams will still ask for the same names we would need to include for better pieces. They will still want Montero, Banuelos, Romine etc. So why give those guys up unless it is a #1 type of young pitcher?

  170. YankeesNmore December 21st, 2010 at 2:40 pm

    As unlikely as it seems, Brian Cashman HAS to be sleeping through the entire winter… I say amazing because I’ve never known anybody who stayed in bed after sh*##ing it so many times.

    I look forward to our NEXT general manager. #timeFORaCHANGE

  171. YankeesNmore December 21st, 2010 at 2:40 pm

    As unlikely as it seems, Brian Cashman HAS to be sleeping through the entire winter… I say amazing because I’ve never known anybody who stayed in bed after sh*##ing it so many times.

    I look forward to our NEXT general manager. #timeFORaCHANGE

  172. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 2:40 pm

    “Everyone assumes that the Red Sox are going to stay healthy and that Beckett, Lackey, and Papelbon are going to be better…..why is this such a safe assumption?”

    Most of those guys are at the age where reversion to career norms are probably the safest assumption of ‘em all, but it’s still far from a lock.

  173. blake December 21st, 2010 at 2:41 pm

    Id move Montero right now for Kerchaw but he’s really cheap and under team control for awhile yet…….

  174. Wave Your Hat December 21st, 2010 at 2:42 pm

    “He’d struggle to get half that with the Yankees.”

    With ARod at third, Jorge DH’ing, Jeter at short and only three OFs, Hall would have been a lock to get 300+ PAs. Plus playing for a contender, maybe on a WS team. The Stros signed him for $3.5M, you’d have thought $4M would have tempted him to come here.

  175. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 2:42 pm

    Fans and people around baseball are almost bipolar when it comes to young pitching.

    This time last year, Clay Buccholz stunk, had not even come in the stratosphere of reaching his potential, and people in Boston wanted Farrel’s head for it.

    The Red Sox had so little confidence in Buccholz that two years ago they signed Brad Penny and John Smoltz instead of handing a rotation spot to him.

    Now a year later, the player performs and suddenly he and the Red Sox are the model for success.

    At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what the GM does or if they have some type of organizational pitching philosophy or whatever, if the player performs the team looks like geniuses and if the player does not perform the team looks like dunces.

    Things change quickly in baseball. Buccholz can take a step back in performance like many expect. Hughes can take a step forward next year and become Ace 1A in the rotation like Buccholz did. Burnett can bounce back. Nova or Phelps or Noesi or whoever can come out of nowhere and beat the Baseball America projections of them.

    A year from now the Yankees may look like geniuses. I thought they were last offseason when I thought their rotation was absolutely stacked and it turned out to be a disaster. Now they are dunces.

    Let it play out. Jeez I get blasted on here for using statistics too often with smug comments like the game is played on the field, not on paper.

    Seems like most on here have forgot that advice.

  176. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 2:43 pm

    how is it a waste if the young pitcher is healthy in the end?

    You’ve just damaged the bullpen over the course of 2 months. And your theory doesn’t make sense, because most relievers fluctuate wildly between 10-30 pitches. Which is more than 10%.

    And Joba trained as a starter in the off-season and spring training. If every starter needed to build up at 10% intervals after not pitching at maximum for a month, you’d never get anyone off the DL.

  177. blake December 21st, 2010 at 2:44 pm

    Mell,

    I agree with Youkalis and Pedroia but their rotation and pen Im not so sure about.

  178. Cashman needs to go December 21st, 2010 at 2:46 pm

    G. Love December 21st, 2010 at 2:01 pm
    From what Lost posted it’s safe to assume that the front office, including ownership, is not happy with the plan put in place by Cashman. The interesting thing Lost wrote was about lack of creativity in trade discussions with KC for Greinke.

    That was long one of my criticisms of Cashman. He appeared only to be able to target obvious targets and never seemed to really pull the rabbit out of his hat.

    The failure of the front office this off season goes back to last off season.

    I’ve said it a hundred times, but there was plenty of notice in the 2010 season that this rotation was crumbling and needed new pieces.

    Cashman was myopic with Cliff Lee and let some possible additions fall by the wayside while lusting after the obvious target.

    I don’t think it makes me a negative fan to look at the rotation today and say quite confidently that it won’t cut it. We’ve seen what happens here with a flimsy rotation before. The bullpen gets burnt to a crisp before June. The hitters/offense fail and start to press when the starting pitching falls behind early in the game giving way to the tired bullpen.

    This is the pattern that this current rotation will set for the season unless we get 2 capable starting pitchers into the rotation.

    Personally, I don’t love that Nova pitched in winter league. All that tells me is he’s been throwing all year and has the potential to be tired and not last for 180 innings or more which is what we’re counting on from him today.

    As incredible of a job Cashman did in 2009 to get the players the team needed to make a title run, I truly believe he’s done a terrible job since then to address the rotation outside of shooting for the moon with Lee and Hallyday over the past two years.

    I have no problem with shooting for the moon. I want my GM to do that.

    But when he can’t close the deals this is what happens to your team.

    We’re basically crossing our fingers that a 39 year old man who suffered a groin injury and missed half the season last year and who really wants to retire will come back to put the rotation into some kind of order.

    Having to depend on that is poor planning and Cashman gets an F from for his plan to build the team for this year.

    The off season isn’t over yet and I expect the Yankees to do something, but as it stands right now it’s been an abysmal off season for this team.

    They are clearly weaker in the rotation and the bullpen.

    And any of you thinking the AA prospects are going to jump to the majors next year and be lights out don’t watch baseball year in year out.

    Developing pitching takes time and patience and the guys in the system some of you think are can’t miss are years away from being rotation pieces on a championship caliber team.

    What’s going to happen here is this — the rotation will struggle if it stays as is. The bullpen will be toast from overuse and then Cashman will be forced to trade all the prospects you adore for middling starting pitching when the team starts to tank in the standings.

    The only thing, at this point, you can hope for is miracles where Betances, Brackman and Banuelos somehow come up to the majors from AA and defy all odds and pitch to their ceilings.

    I tend to think once the team struggles and falls far enough behind the competition early on Cashman will blow up the minors and trade for average starting pitchers who can provide innings.

    *********************

    Lets also not forget that for the last 2 years he has no backup plan on whether one of his regular starting 8 get injured….as much as everyone on here says posada will be healthy all year at DH i tend to think he’ll be visiting the DL for a few stretches in 2011..and whats the backup? Probably Martin at DH (If HE is even healthy or any good) and wait for it…cervelli starting about 30 to 40 games too many at catcher…..oh yeah I forgot they have montero – and the guarantee that he will flourish right away is at about 0 percent…

    AROD on the DL? We’ll be seeing Pena or Nunez and both didn’t inspire me whatsoever last year…..Tex on the DL? We’ll have swisher move to first and no stick Greg Golson as our regular OF’er? and without good starting pitching (which cashman didn’t bother doing ANY research on other than Cliff Lee) having cervelli or golson or nunez starting huge chunks of games is a recipe for disaster..

    so cashman hasn’t upgraded the starting pitching or the bullpen, hasn’t beefed up one of the most anemic benches and hasn’t made any provisions in case one of the crucial regulars misses big amounts of time…so what the bleep has he actually done this offseason – he’s signed wash ups and never has beens to round out the 40 man roster – things that perpetual bottom feeder teams like the royals and pirates do year in and year out ….

  179. DaSaint007 December 21st, 2010 at 2:46 pm

    Hall wants to play at 1 position so that he can be, in his words ‘great’. Yankees weren’t offering that. But look for Kepinger to be dealt due to the Hall signing, and Yankees already have expressed interest.

    There is at least 1 bullpen move (FA signing/trade) still to be made prior to ST, and then it’s competition time for all the invitees and regulars.

  180. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    he progressed as well as anyone could have hoped last year after everyone jumping on the Joba train and calling Phil a bust.
    __________________________

    First half stats versus second half stats don’t show a “progress”. They show a definitive regress.

  181. randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    “Thankfully, I was able to scour Lohuds archives and find that Joba went into the bullpen after pitching 28 pitches and threw until he reached 50.”

    throwing in the bullpen isn’t the same thing.

    if you scoured the loud archives you would have seen me arguing with people at the time.

    no matter how many times you say it was the right thing to do, he ended up hurt after this dramatic increase in pitches.

    neither of us can prove our position. we can just say what happened. that’s the reason why there are some real idiots who are pitching coaches because no one can know you screwed up.

    just as an aside , when you go through the work to look at the archives, throw up a link as a shortcut for the rest of us to take a look too. it’s good for the blog to look back as it gives some perspective.

  182. Against All Odds December 21st, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    # randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 1:22 pm

    the only reason i can see that the yankees would not try joba as a starter is if they know something is physically wrong with him that would preclude starting.

    i’m actually not that concerned about the starting pitching if pettitte comes back , but the more i think about joba the more i wonder if cashman isn’t really an imbecile with developing pitching .

    no one else seems to think so , but i have no doubt he ruined wang and if he ruined joba with rushing him, how many guys does he have to ruin before the yankees get someone who knows what they are doing with developing starting pitching.

    the problem with assigning blame is that injuries can be so random that it’s hard to find a pattern and say any one injury was caused by doing something incorrectly.

    it’s all going to get down to opinion about cashman’s development of pitching.
    my opinion is that that out of the three B’s, cashman had better get some serious success or else it’s time for a new job.

    no more kicking the can down the road. develop or else.

    ———————————————————————–

    Excellent points it seems like Cashman doesn’t have a good grasp on pitching as a whole whether it’s from the farm or free agents. He has swung and missed on so many guys that it’s a scary to think how he can be in his job for this long and be completely wrong about it. Everyone in any profession has something they aren’t good at but boy Cashman does a poor job when it comes to pitching.

  183. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    Would everyone here really be happy if we handed 140 mil to Crawford?

  184. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 2:50 pm

    Much of Carl Crawford’s value is tied to his defense.

    That is a big chunk of what he brings to the teams and that is a huge reason why people view him as the type of player they do. He is not even close to an elite offensive player.

    Offensively the extra value he would bring over Gardner is not dramatic enough for me to buy Plan B was to “upgrade the offense.”

    Signing a guy like Thome would probably realize a greater gain on offensive upgrade.

  185. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 2:50 pm

    throwing in the bullpen isn’t the same thing.

    if you scoured the loud archives you would have seen me arguing with people at the time.

    Its still throwing. The minor leagues isn’t the same as the majors, so why stretch him out down there? Pitchers go into the pen all the time to hit their maximums. Simulated games. Etc. You also said you wanted to see Joba at 90 pitches after he threw only 68, so there goes your 10% theory!

  186. Carl December 21st, 2010 at 2:51 pm

    # Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    Would everyone here really be happy if we handed 140 mil to Crawford?

    Didn’t want him.

  187. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 2:53 pm

    LGY December 21st, 2010 at 2:35 pm
    Joba is 25 and has 3 more years of team control left.

    The Yankees have no reason and should have no incentive to give up on him.

    Giving up on young players at their lowest point is a recipe for disaster, especially in Joba’s case where his raw statistics were inflated (to what degree is we do not know) by a ridiculously high batting average on balls in play.

    I remember last year how once the Yankees acquired Granderson, people wanted to trade Gardner for basically anything.

    The Yankees shipped off Melky who proceeded to be maybe the worst qualified OF in baseball this year, stuck with Gardner, and it worked out great.

    Joba has 3 years to get his act together and for his performance to show up on the field. Selling low should not be an option, unless a trade that really makes sense comes along.

    ——————-

    Actually he has fewer than 3 years to get his act together as they can, at any time, opt to non-tender him.

  188. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 2:53 pm

    I’m sure 20 bullpen pitches contributed to an injury that occurred two months later and was only tendonitis and not a torn anything.

    Most pitchers manage to make it through the stretch out phase unharmed. I’d say its more likely Joba’s body-type contributed to the injury more than a gradual 10-15 pitch progression.

  189. clownthrowindown December 21st, 2010 at 2:54 pm

    Everyone assumes that the Red Sox are going to stay healthy and that Beckett, Lackey, and Papelbon are going to be better…..why is this such a safe assumption?
    ———————————————————————————————–

    Its the same as assuming Jeter, Tex, Arod, Posada, Granderson and AJ are going to be better and that the Yankees will stay healthy.

    If you’re a GM your game plan can’t be “let’s hope the other team has injuries.” You can’t predict injuries, break out years or guys falling off a cliff so you can’t plan (or hope) for those things.

  190. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 2:54 pm

    LGY, I would agree with you, if Crawford was a centerpiece in what they needed offensively. Crawford was the 3 hitter in Tampa, who’s job it was to drive in runs. In Boston, he’s going to see a lot more pitches to hit, and be afforded the chance to take walks. I think, and I hope I’m wrong, we see a different type of Crawford this upcoming year. His numbers are being generated from a different offensive machine. They signed him to get on base, then steal them, and they’re going to put Gonzalez, Youkilis, and Ortiz behind him.
    Plus, Crawford’s statistics have trended upwards nearly every year for the last five while playing in Tampa, and last year (his best) he put those numbers up on a team which he was the main hitter with Pena basically a shadow.
    I feel much worse about Crawford there than most do.

  191. randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 2:55 pm

    to use that world class runners approach, once a pitcher gets to a level hey can drop up and down quite a bit once they are trained .

    it took me two years to get up to 20 mile runs but i could run 3 miles one day and twenty the next with no problem.

    the point is building up tendons, bones, muscle, and whatever else is in there slowly. once it’s built up an athlete can vary the workloads.

    i think there is a real problem in knowing how to develop a young pitcher. i don’t think any of them are hurt by going too slow so that’s where you want to err on.

    i used to get so sick of hearing hughes had nothing more to learn in the minors because he was doing so well.

    of course, he never learned how to get those numbers with a really good change up. he could have learned plenty after getting AAA hitters out with two pitches. he could have learned how to get them out with four pitches.

    the yankees are going to be faced with real temptation to rush the 3 B’s. they really need to have a meeting with themselves and make a real commitment not to do it.

  192. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 2:55 pm

    “Would everyone here really be happy if we handed 140 mil to Crawford?”

    Not really, but in the end it’s probably not any dumber than handing $147M to Cliff Lee.

  193. Bronx Jeers December 21st, 2010 at 2:55 pm

    HOF voting today?

    Pete Abe tweet:

    My first Hall vote: Alomar, Blyleven, Larkin, Raines and Trammell

  194. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 2:55 pm

    “The interesting thing Lost wrote was about lack of creativity in trade discussions with KC for Greinke.

    That was long one of my criticisms of Cashman. He appeared only to be able to target obvious targets and never seemed to really pull the rabbit out of his hat.”

    ————————

    Cashman’s M.O. as a GM when it comes to trades has been to get guys most people did not expect.

    When was the last time he traded for someone obvious?

    Nick Swisher no one expected. Actually being able to get Granderson was thought to be ludicrous by many Yankee fans. Most said no way they would actually trade him to the Yankees, so Cashman got super creative and involved 3 teams to get it done. Javier Vazquez was out of nowhere. Lance Berkman was unexpected. Kerry Wood was unexpected and thought to be a waste of time and not worth it by many on this board.

  195. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 2:56 pm

    Cashman swooped in out of nowhere, stole A-Rod, AND made the Rangers pay a huge chunk of his salary.

  196. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 2:57 pm

    Plus, Crawford’s statistics have trended upwards nearly every year for the last five while playing in Tampa, and last year (his best) he put those numbers up on a team which he was the main hitter with Pena basically a shadow.

    His numbers did not trend anywhere. He had his previous career high in 2006. Hit worse the next 3 years. Then had another alright year. I’d be surprised if he managed to surpass last years production.

  197. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 2:57 pm

    Anyone else getting the feeling that this team has virtually no desire to spend much if anything more this offseason? $1-2 mm here and there and that’s virtually it. Granted, there isnt a lot of big ticket stuff out there but there are certainly some bench roles that can be filled with some low cost one year deals similar to the one Hall got.

    It is now impossible to deny that Cashman has botched this offseason and was completely fabricating the “numerous options” he cited while at the winter meetings.

    Its not his fault lee signed elsewhere, but he is to blame for having absolutely no idea where to turn in the even this happened. Hate to say it, but he is banking on a farm system reviving a dynasty and unfortunately for him, he wont be around long enough to see that to fruition.

  198. Pat M. December 21st, 2010 at 2:58 pm

    I was just wondering if Cashman received those medical reports on Freddy Garcia ??? Zack Greinke, the one that got away…..

  199. lounge lizard December 21st, 2010 at 2:58 pm

    I would have been thrilled. Because Boston wouldn’t have him and there are so few other options. (Wouldn’t have been so bad if he went to Angels.)

    Teams are locking up their good players. if you don’t “overpay” on the scant that’s available, you wind up with nothing.

    Surgery may or may not remedy the second half Gardner. I wouldnt’ bet a 200m team on it.

  200. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 2:59 pm

    @ 140M? Yes, I would have. For the reasons stated: if you put Crawford in front of Tex and ARod and Cano, you can wholeheartedly expect him to be amazing. That’s exactly what Boston is doing with Ellsbury hitting ninth (just as Gardner would)

    I feel that there is a ton of sour grapes here, and writing off the Crawford thing as no big deal. If Casmoney had signed Crawford, we’d be waxing poetic about how many runs he was going to score and how much better he’ll be in our lineup versus Tampa’s lineup. I feel like I’m the only guy being honest about him in Boston.

  201. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 2:59 pm

    the point is building up tendons, bones, muscle, and whatever else is in there slowly. once it’s built up an athlete can vary the workloads.

    Ok but in the Joba scenario, Joba had already touched 100 pitches many times in the minors, and came into spring training as a starter. His tendons were already prepared. We all forget Hughes had a working change up he used in the minors in 2007, but he lost the feel for it. You can’t send a guy down every time he loses feel for a pitch.

  202. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 2:59 pm

    LGY December 21st, 2010 at 2:56 pm
    Cashman swooped in out of nowhere, stole A-Rod, AND made the Rangers pay a huge chunk of his salary.

    ————————

    And I’m sure that had this blog been up back then there would have been plenty of posters fuming about the Yankees overpaying by giving up Soriano and Arias

  203. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 2:59 pm

    “Plus, Crawford’s statistics have trended upwards nearly every year for the last five while playing in Tampa”

    ———————

    OPS

    05: .800
    06: .830
    07: .821
    08: .719
    09: .816
    10: .851

    How has he trended upward?

  204. Cashman needs to go December 21st, 2010 at 3:00 pm

    Hate to say it, but he is banking on a farm system reviving a dynasty and unfortunately for him, he wont be around long enough to see that to fruition.

    ******************

    Thats what I’m hoping will be under my christmas tree next year – once the yankees end up in 3rd or 4th place this year..i guess i’ll have to change my sign on name at that point…

  205. randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 3:00 pm

    “Most pitchers manage to make it through the stretch out phase unharmed.”

    how many young short relievers are stretched out during the season?

    we have to be talking about a small sample.

    i’m telling you, if it’s not a really boring increase because it’s so slow, it’s too fast.

  206. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    feel that there is a ton of sour grapes here, and writing off the Crawford thing as no big deal. If Casmoney had signed Crawford, we’d be waxing poetic about how many runs he was going to score and how much better he’ll be in our lineup versus Tampa’s lineup

    I would have been puking at giving him 20 mil a year and replacing Gardner. Count me out of that little group who’d be on Crawford’s jock. I watch crawford every day here in Florida and he was a good player who will be good for the Red Sox. Not 20 mil good. And he certainly has the capability to be bad.

    He just isn’t the difference maker everyone suggests. And while he might be a difference maker on the Red Sox (we’ll see, playing that tiny LF), he would not have been on the Yankees.

  207. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    # cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 2:59 pm

    @ 140M? Yes, I would have. For the reasons stated: if you put Crawford in front of Tex and ARod and Cano, you can wholeheartedly expect him to be amazing. That’s exactly what Boston is doing with Ellsbury hitting ninth (just as Gardner would)

    I feel that there is a ton of sour grapes here, and writing off the Crawford thing as no big deal. If Casmoney had signed Crawford, we’d be waxing poetic about how many runs he was going to score and how much better he’ll be in our lineup versus Tampa’s lineup. I feel like I’m the only guy being honest about him in Boston.

    ——————————————————–

    Nope, you are not alone. Lotta kool-aide drinking going on here with respect to the quality of the yankee team and the silly notion that Boston hasnt improved from last years team.

    My personal favorite was the post that compared the rotations and have every slot 1-5 as a wash….including Nova and whoever our 5th starter is washing with Lackey and Dice K.

  208. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 3:02 pm

    *”had”

  209. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 3:02 pm

    With the Nats picking up Ankiel to go along with Nyjer Morgan, Roger Bernadina, and Jayson Werth in their OF mix – I wouldn’t mind trying to get Mike Morse from them.

  210. sunny615 December 21st, 2010 at 3:02 pm

    Not me. I never wanted Crawford. I wanted a good starting pitcher and in the FA market – that was Lee. He didn’t want to be here. Not much Cash can do about it. That’s on Cliff Lee. The issue is – and no one here (for the most part) can admit it – is that there was no one else to get. Pavano (gack) was the next best FA pitcher to be had. No thank you. Freddy Garcia? Milwood? Really??? Pfeh. Then what – Trade Montero, Betances, Nunez, and maybe Banuelos to get Greinke? Really?? Did you see what the Brewers gave up? Essentially no one of any of the caliber of the Yankee prospects. If they asked for Laird, Neosi, Romine, and Venditte, the sure… love to give Greinke a shot, but everyone wants the Yankees to give up twice as much for the same player than any other team. I give up Montero, et al for King Feliz or Josh Johnson but not Greinke. Basically, the Yanks are up a creek with just a paddle handle.

  211. DaSaint007 December 21st, 2010 at 3:02 pm

    I’m amazed at the number of people who think Cashman alone makes the decisions on who should be a starter vs reliever.

    Last I checked, he has a well respected staff of ‘experts’: Newman, Oppenheimer, Eppler, etc.

  212. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 3:04 pm

    Thinking Cashman won’t be here is fairly amusing. We are a year removed from a World Series right and made the second round last year. As far as I can tell the Yankees aren’t losing money and until people stop buying seats and the team starts missing the playoffs there really isn’t much from a managment standpoint to justify firing him is there? How long did it take for the Mets to fire Omar and that’s after mulitple messes and a bunch of bad contracts which have hampered their ability to make moves. There were plenty of calls to fire Cashman when he didn’t land Santana as well. How’s that looking right now?

  213. randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 3:04 pm

    “His tendons were already prepared.”

    if they were prepared, i would think he wouldn’t have developed tendonitis like he did.

    let’s switch to the three B’s.

    should they be developed quickly with a chance of burning them or slowly with the chance that they miss some time they could be helping the big league team?

  214. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 3:04 pm

    When are people going to come to the conclusion that whether or not we wanted Crawford on the yankees, he makes the red sox better….thats the reality, that is all that matters…he improves their team.

  215. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 3:05 pm

    Why wouldn’t Cashman and the Yankees bank on the farm system?

    Supplanting this team with young talent is how you are successful in this league.

    Overpaying in free agency, trading for washed up pitchers, and ignoring the farm system resulted in no titles from 2001-2008.

    And the main reason they were still very competitive in those years was because of the talent they had developed and maintained.

  216. Wave Your Hat December 21st, 2010 at 3:05 pm

    I would have traded Montero, Nunez and a negotiated good AA or AAA pitcher for Greinke in a heartbeat. The Yanks didn’t engage the Royals – we don’t know what deal they could have made.

  217. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 3:06 pm

    Also with all the fire Cashman moves, I assume everyone has a perfect replacement for him. Who would that be exactly? Because Theo the genius has missed the playoffs a couple times the last few years and has had as many misses as hits in his moves. So I guess that is a fair question. Who does everyone want that is currently not employeed, actually why bother, is or is not employeed GMing this team?

  218. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 3:06 pm

    “When are people going to come to the conclusion that whether or not we wanted Crawford on the yankees, he makes the red sox better….thats the reality, that is all that matters…he improves their team.”

    ———————

    Many fans are not concerned with just a short term outlook.

    I want to see a team that will always be competitive and takes both a short term and long range outlook.

    Crawford is a bad contract for the Red Sox and it will hopefully pay off for the Yankees in the long term over the course of that contract.

  219. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 3:07 pm

    His numbers did not trend anywhere. He had his previous career high in 2006. Hit worse the next 3 years. Then had another alright year. I?d be surprised if he managed to surpass last years production.

    ________________________________

    You’re right. He has however been the model of repeatability, sans his hurt year. I won’t be surprised at all. I think, like any player, you put him on a team where he’s protected to a serious extent, and he’s going to take advantage of that. Unless of course you think Adrian Gonzalez provides less protection than, I dunno, anyone in baseball.

  220. sunny615 December 21st, 2010 at 3:08 pm

    According to Sherman, it was Montero, Nunes one of Betances or Banuelos and one other pitching prospect. According to the former KC GM who worked Greinke through his issues back in 06, he recommended that the team he works for now to NOT pursue Greinke.

  221. Wave Your Hat December 21st, 2010 at 3:08 pm

    There is no need to rush the three B’s particularly. There are a number of good pitchers at the AAA level who could help and who should be tried first.

  222. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 3:08 pm

    According to the report the Royals wanted Montero, Nunez, Banuelos or Betcances and then Adam Warren.

    This is also after the Foxsports report that the Yankees tried to get Grienke last July and he shot the deal down not wanting to come here.

    Does this sound like a guy you want to mortgage your future on, on top of the anxiety issues? Not me.

  223. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:08 pm

    how many young short relievers are stretched out during the season?

    we have to be talking about a small sample.

    i’m telling you, if it’s not a really boring increase because it’s so slow, it’s too fast.

    Johan Santana, Chad Billingsley, Jason Marquis, Roy Halladay, Chan Ho Park, Justin Masterson, Scott Shields, Ramiro Mendoza, Brian Dunesing

  224. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 3:09 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 21st, 2010 at 3:05 pm
    I would have traded Montero, Nunez and a negotiated good AA or AAA pitcher for Greinke in a heartbeat. The Yanks didn’t engage the Royals – we don’t know what deal they could have made.

    —–

    As Jack Curry said last night on YES; when you make a major trade and give up a chip like Montero you want to walk out of your office giving high fives and saying “yeah we got this guy” The Yankees felt more like they would walk out of their offices with their fingers crossed that it worked out. That right there is all it took for them to back away from the deal.

  225. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 3:09 pm

    “Hate to say it, but he is banking on a farm system reviving a dynasty and unfortunately for him, he wont be around long enough to see that to fruition”

    Dynasty years were largely built around “banking on the system”. Whether homegrown players or players obtained via trade, the “system” worked.

  226. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 3:09 pm

    “Hate to say it, but he is banking on a farm system reviving a dynasty and unfortunately for him, he wont be around long enough to see that to fruition”

    Dynasty years were largely built around “banking on the system”. Whether homegrown players or players obtained via trade, the “system” worked.

  227. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 3:10 pm

    Oops. Sorry about the double up.

  228. Wave Your Hat December 21st, 2010 at 3:10 pm

    That’s one way to look at it Chip, but I don’t view it that way.

  229. sunny615 December 21st, 2010 at 3:10 pm

    LGY December 21st, 2010 at 3:06 pm

    Many fans are not concerned with just a short term outlook.

    I want to see a team that will always be competitive and takes both a short term and long range outlook.

    Crawford is a bad contract for the Red Sox and it will hopefully pay off for the Yankees in the long term over the course of that contract.

    ——————-

    “Bad contract…”
    You mean like Arod’s contract or Tex’s contract or CC’s contract or AJ’s contract or Jeter’s contract… Lotta DH’s coming soon…

  230. randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 3:10 pm

    “Johan Santana, Chad Billingsley, Jason Marquis, Roy Halladay, Chan Ho Park, Justin Masterson, Scott Shields, Ramiro Mendoza, Brian Dunesing”

    nine guys is not a small sample?

  231. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    if they were prepared, i would think he wouldn’t have developed tendonitis like he did.

    let’s switch to the three B’s.

    should they be developed quickly with a chance of burning them or slowly with the chance that they miss some time they could be helping the big league team?

    I feel sorry for every pitcher who gets tendonitis, if only they had thrown 10 less pitches!
    As for the B’s, I’d move them up as they show progress.

    All of them need innings. I’d probably keep them all in the minors in 2011 except Brackman, who will be out of options soon thanks to his major league deal.

  232. Wave Your Hat December 21st, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    “According to the report the Royals wanted Montero, Nunez, Banuelos or Betcances and then Adam Warren.”

    What the Royals wanted, and what they would take if the Yanks negotiated with them, could easily be two different things.

  233. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    LGY December 21st, 2010 at 3:05 pm
    Why wouldn’t Cashman and the Yankees bank on the farm system?

    Supplanting this team with young talent is how you are successful in this league.

    Overpaying in free agency, trading for washed up pitchers, and ignoring the farm system resulted in no titles from 2001-2008.

    And the main reason they were still very competitive in those years was because of the talent they had developed and maintained.

    ——————–

    I have no problem with trusting the farm system to produce quality players – but when you’re the Yankees and you have the kind of financial resources that they have I would also see nothing wrong with bringing in a guy like Freddy Garcia or Kevin Millwood as insurance and be willing to cut bait with them or move them into a relief role should some of these kids force themselves into a starting role.

    It’s what the Yankees didn’t do in 2008 when Hughes and IPK fell on their faces.

  234. Carl December 21st, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    I didn’t want Crawford when a lot of you idiots were talking about trading Granderson to get him.

    Signing Crawford doesn’t solve the problems with our pitching staff.

    I wanted Lee. It didn’t happen. Oh well.

  235. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 3:12 pm

    # LGY December 21st, 2010 at 3:05 pm

    Why wouldn’t Cashman and the Yankees bank on the farm system?

    Supplanting this team with young talent is how you are successful in this league.

    Overpaying in free agency, trading for washed up pitchers, and ignoring the farm system resulted in no titles from 2001-2008.
    ————————————————–

    Other than Andy Pettitte, the starting staff on the 1996-2000 teams consisted of all free agents. Key, Cone, Clemens, Wells, Hernandez.

    The 2009 playoff rotation, again other than Pettitte was all free agents: CC, Burnett.

    Making bad free agent signings is what resulted in no titles during that stretch……….because frankly, the 2009 team was just as free agent/trade heavy as all the others during the 2001-2008 stretch.

    They didnt win because they signed the wrong guys and had no pitching, not because they ignored the farm system.

  236. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 3:12 pm

    And he certainly has the capability to be bad

    When? Even on terrible Tampa teams he was good. When has been be bad? Against Boston and NY on a big stage? Nope. When exactly has he shown you that he can be “bad”?

    Acting as if it’s no big deal that Boston got a lifetime .300 hitter, who can drive the ball, stays out of double plays and, steals bases at will is just sill, Jerkface. Every post you make about how little it means, or how it’s going to inhibit Boston to make moves, or yadayadayada is just moving the goalposts. He’s a damn good player, who got exactly the same amount he would have gotten from NY: the nationals made sure of that.

  237. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:12 pm

    nine guys is not a small sample?

    Its technically 142, but I can only see 15 of the names on the list because I don’t feel like paying the 15 dollars for baseball-reference PI

    I searched for players in their 1st-4th season, pitching 40% of games in relief or more, 30 games minimum.

  238. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 3:12 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 21st, 2010 at 3:10 pm
    That’s one way to look at it Chip, but I don’t view it that way.

    ——————-

    Fair enough – but it appears that your view and Cashman’s view are different and since he’s the GM his view wins.

  239. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 3:13 pm

    Well what is your proposal that would have topped the Brewers deal and also moved Grienke out of the league which also might factor into the decision as it did with Santana when he was moved?

  240. Wave Your Hat December 21st, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    “Fair enough – but it appears that your view and Cashman’s view are different and since he’s the GM his view wins.”

    Oh gee I never thought of that. You’re an idiot.

  241. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    Well, whatever. We’ll all get a close up of what that Crawford deal looks like soon enough.

  242. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 3:12 pm
    # LGY December 21st, 2010 at 3:05 pm

    Why wouldn’t Cashman and the Yankees bank on the farm system?

    Supplanting this team with young talent is how you are successful in this league.

    Overpaying in free agency, trading for washed up pitchers, and ignoring the farm system resulted in no titles from 2001-2008.
    ————————————————–

    Other than Andy Pettitte, the starting staff on the 1996-2000 teams consisted of all free agents. Key, Cone, Clemens, Wells, Hernandez.

    The 2009 playoff rotation, again other than Pettitte was all free agents: CC, Burnett.

    Making bad free agent signings is what resulted in no titles during that stretch……….because frankly, the 2009 team was just as free agent/trade heavy as all the others during the 2001-2008 stretch.

    They didnt win because they signed the wrong guys and had no pitching, not because they ignored the farm system.

    —————————

    Clemens and Cone weren’t free agents – they were trade pickups.

    Most important Yankee on those championship teams – arguably Rivera – from the farm system (though not at all highly touted)

  243. randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    how fast to stretch out relievers is a perfect blog subject because there’s no right answer.

    i think there’s no general rule. as someone who has caught a pitch when a pitcher’s tendon snapped , i tend to like to go really slow in increasing pitch count or in general development of a young pitcher because i have never heard of a guy having an injury created by going to slow. the tendency is to rush guys if they are good.

  244. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    When? Even on terrible Tampa teams he was good. When has been be bad? Against Boston and NY on a big stage? Nope. When exactly has he shown you that he can be “bad”?

    Maybe not bad. But below average? Not worth 20 million? How about that? 2008: .273 .319 .400 .718 ? With injuries to boot. Or maybe his ALDS .143 .143 .286 .429? He is being paid 20 million dollars and he is merely an .800 OPS player. For 20 mil you should be getting more.

    He will make Boston good now. How good is up for debate. Certainly not as good as everyone is suggesting.

  245. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 3:16 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 21st, 2010 at 3:14 pm
    “Fair enough – but it appears that your view and Cashman’s view are different and since he’s the GM his view wins.”

    Oh gee I never thought of that. You’re an idiot.

    ——————–

    a stunning retort.

    My point is; you can argue that the Yankees should have tried to whittle the Royals down, but the bottom line is that for the Yankees to trade Montero the deal would have to be a slam dunk – Greinke is immensely talented but in their minds clearly not a slam dunk.

  246. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:17 pm

    because i have never heard of a guy having an injury created by going to slow.

    But no one really knows how injuries are created. The act of pitching itself is injury creating. Plenty of guys getting walked slowly through development get injured. I think there is a certain speed at which injuries are more likely, but I don’t think the Yankees have ever reached it.

  247. Wave Your Hat December 21st, 2010 at 3:17 pm

    randy-

    You can’t use spring training to jump start the stretching out process?

  248. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 3:17 pm

    Carlo, just to play devil’s advocate, some of those guys you are mentioning were acquired using our talent and not simply free agency. Also Andy was a starter, but at the time Mariano came up as a starter, ramiro mendoza played big roles on those teams, we had position players like Jorge and Jeter. The focus to the Yankees minor league system has been pitching where the depth is. When arguing building out of free agency it seems as though you run a much smaller risk signing position players to longer deals then you do pitchers, so much easier entering the free agency market looking for that rather than pitching which was available back then. The way teams lock up pitchers, none are available until they are 30 or older.

  249. Cashman needs to go December 21st, 2010 at 3:18 pm

    Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 3:06 pm
    Also with all the fire Cashman moves, I assume everyone has a perfect replacement for him. Who would that be exactly? Because Theo the genius has missed the playoffs a couple times the last few years and has had as many misses as hits in his moves. So I guess that is a fair question. Who does everyone want that is currently not employeed, actually why bother, is or is not employeed GMing this team?

    **************

    He’s also won 1 more WS than cashy in the last 6 years and spent about what 200 million dollars less….

  250. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 3:18 pm

    financial resources that they have I would also see nothing wrong with bringing in a guy like Freddy Garcia or Kevin Millwood as insurance and be willing to cut bait with them or move them into a relief role should some of these kids force themselves into a starting role.
    ________________

    Why let a bunch of mistakes lead to more mistakes? Millwood is just horrible, so labeling him a “veteran” and thus advocating him taking any time on the bump away from anyone is as non-productive as those arguing for Joba to be back in the rotataion.
    I understand the money thing, but there is nobody out there right now that can be had for just money who will help on the same level they are being paid to do so.
    Cashman is in a tough spot, but I’ll hold off on judging his ability until ST.

  251. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 3:18 pm

    # Chip December 21st, 2010 at 3:14 pm
    —————————

    Clemens and Cone weren’t free agents – they were trade pickups.

    Most important Yankee on those championship teams – arguably Rivera – from the farm system (though not at all highly touted)

    ——————-

    The point was they were not homegrown guys. And for all the talk about the Yankees trading away the farm and leaving the cupboard dry in the 2001-2008 period……..who did they trade away that would have helped? Frankly, we didn’t trade anything of value away over that span, so its not as though we made personnel mistakes, we just had a booty system that didn’t yield anything of value until Cano and Wang came along.

  252. randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 3:19 pm

    “Its technically 142, but I can only see 15 of the names on the list because I don’t feel like paying the 15 dollars for baseball-reference PI”

    the obvious reason to pay attention to this stuff as a yankee fan is that the three B”s are coming and the yankees rotation is obviously thin.

    without knowing much about these pitchers i would say when they are ready, then give them another year in the minors and that would be about right.

  253. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:19 pm

    Having watched Crawford his entire career, I can safely say I was never worried when he came up to bat. He is neutralized by lefties. He doesn’t have tremendous power. He doesn’t get on base at an elite level.

    I was more worried about Rocco Baldelli when he first came up.

  254. DaSaint007 December 21st, 2010 at 3:19 pm

    Overall, I think Cashman is a good GM. Not the most creative, but a good GM nonetheless.
    Do I think he misplayed this offseason? Yes.

    First the rotation:
    I believe a prudent move would have been to FIRST sign De La Rosa, a lefty, to a reasonable 3 year contract, to act as insurance for both Pettitte and Lee. With DLR in place, it would have not only provided leverage in the Lee negotiations, but served as a safety net in case Pettitte takes the route he apparently is now – retirement.
    Then I would have pursued Lee and Pettitte.

    Second, the bullpen:
    I can understand not overpaying for relievers, and so I have no problem with adding Feliciano. I probably would have done so sooner, but no matter. But I would also have added a Jon Rauch or Brian Fuentes since Kerry Wood preferred the cubbies.

    Third, the bench:
    No rush here, but I would have preferred Wiggington, who probably wanted playing time as a starter, but would have considered trading for Betimit, who is versitile and most likely woudn’t cost anything from KC other than a low level prospect. It may also have been my entree into discussions on Greinke. But I’m not going to kill Cash here because there is lots of time to fill out the bench, or let the kids (Nunez, Pena, Laird) play.

  255. Wave Your Hat December 21st, 2010 at 3:19 pm

    Chip-

    More stunning than your initial “if Cashman didn’t do it it shouldn’t be done or discussed” response, which was moronic.

    Deals are never slam dunks – if you wait for one you’ll never get it, and if you do you are almost certain to be wrong.

  256. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:20 pm

    the obvious reason to pay attention to this stuff as a yankee fan is that the three B”s are coming and the yankees rotation is obviously thin.

    without knowing much about these pitchers i would say when they are ready, then give them another year in the minors and that would be about right.

    I think the AAA rotation is full of enough guys to cover 2011. Brackman might come up to the bullpen, but I think Banuelos and betances are safe because they need innings so badly.

  257. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 3:20 pm

    2008 he played in exactly 109 games. In those games, he came out of 13 of them. So, in under 100 games played, you cherry picked the one moment in his career that you could.

    Good job.

  258. 108 stitches December 21st, 2010 at 3:21 pm

    Crawford is a bad contract for the Red Sox and it will hopefully pay off for the Yankees in the long term over the course of that contract.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Boston fans were frantic, the TV ratings drastically down, and general disgust with the team.
    They were forced to make a splash or two. They overpaid with Crawford and and hope that Adrian Gonzalez signs an extension after 2011 or he enters the FA market when he sees what Albert Pujols will get.
    The Socks are not strong up the middle with fingers crossed that Pedroia and Ellbury come back 100% from injury. The 1-5 starters will need close to 100% good health with no trading chips to use at the 7/31 deadline.

  259. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 3:22 pm

    Other than Andy Pettitte, the starting staff on the 1996-2000 teams consisted of all free agents. Key, Cone, Clemens, Wells, Hernandez.

    The 2009 playoff rotation, again other than Pettitte was all free agents: CC, Burnett.

    Making bad free agent signings is what resulted in no titles during that stretch……….because frankly, the 2009 team was just as free agent/trade heavy as all the others during the 2001-2008 stretch.

    They didnt win because they signed the wrong guys and had no pitching, not because they ignored the farm system.

    ——————-

    El Duque was an IFA. Cone and Clemens were trades.

    Why do you think they had to sign the wrong guys and had no pitching?

    Because they didn’t have anyone from the farm system to bring up to the team.

    The game has also changed to a large degree in being able to obtain guys like Cone and Clemens. It is much more rare and it is much more expensive talent wise.

  260. Pat M. December 21st, 2010 at 3:22 pm

    Time to go meet a few buddies at the golf course ( 5 days of rain now ) have a few Irish Coffees and rap baseball before Christmas smacks me in the head one more time…..Royals weren’t asking for all that from what I heard earlier….Tin Cup ( The Original Randy I ) I side with you on the Joba issue, too fast was he stretched out….Tendonitis explains much….Shame the Good Doctor from Long Island isn’t here to give his Medical opinion…..Later

  261. G. Love December 21st, 2010 at 3:22 pm

    The Dynasty years were not built by “banking on the system”. They were built by trades, free agency and the system.

    In most cases they had backup plans in place in case prospects didn’t pan out. There were backups for Jeter, Posada, Pettite.

    The only one they didn’t have a backup for was Mo, but Mo stole the job from Wettleland who was the closer for our 96 championship team. Girardi was the catcher. Not homegrown Posada.

    Our pitchers were guys like Key, Cone, Clemens, El Duque (who is basically a free agent), Wells. Andy Pettitte was one part of the rotation in the dynasty year. He didn’t pitch all 5 days. We had top veteran starters up and down our rotation.

    We had former all stars like Straw, Chilli Davis, Ruben Sierra, Tim Raines on our bench waiting to pounce.

    We never went into a season with 2 reliable starting pitchers and pray for rain as the strategy.

    We never went into a season in the dynasty years with a bench this poor.

    Don’t romanticize those years as being all won by prospects. They weren’t. Guys like Tino, O’Neil, Knobby, Brosius, Boggs, etc. didn’t come up through the Yankee system despite what some of you want to tell yourselves.

    What Cashman and the front office has done this off season is egregious. There is a complete lack of planning and a stubborness that they won’t spend money on small parts for this team.

    Sadly, they have forgotten that small parts win championships. Not placating Jeter’s ego and chasing Cliff Lee with no backup plan.

    Build a killer bullpen and bench if you’re going to roll the dice on the rotation.

    At least that would show some strategy.

  262. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:23 pm

    .301 .344 .461 .806 , thats Crawfords career line not counting his first two seasons because I am being generous. He strikes out 15% of the time, doesn’t walk a lot, and actually does ground into double plays because he puts the ball on the ground.

    He isn’t a 20 mil player. He isn’t a big threat. He hits .270 .315 .382 .697 vs lefties.

    I’m not scared. Also you’re the worst transformer

  263. DaSaint007 December 21st, 2010 at 3:23 pm

    Let me say one more thing. I’ve long advocated for Carl Crawford, as I always felt that an OF of Crawford, Granderson, Swisher, with Gardner as the 4th OF would be hard to beat. But due to Gardner’s progression, I can understand not needing to sign another major contract like what he eventually got.

    Bottom line is that Cashman can still plug the holes effectively with smart low/mid level trades for a starter (Buehrle/Jackson type), and relievers (Rauch/Veras type), plus fill out the bench (Keppinger/Laird/Nunez/Pena).

    The greatest lineup in the majors is still capable of scoring the most amount of runs, so certainly our WS chances are better than most.

    Keep the faith.

  264. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 3:24 pm

    “They overpaid with Crawford and and hope that Adrian Gonzalez signs an extension after 2011″

    He’ll have an extension signed before tax day.

  265. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:24 pm

    We had former all stars like Straw, Chilli Davis, Ruben Sierra, Tim Raines on our bench waiting to pounce.

    This is why we need former all-star Jim Thome on the bench ready to pounce (or shamble).
    I think the market price for former-allstars has increased exponentially since the 90s. Salaries have sky rocketed.

  266. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 3:24 pm

    # Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 3:17 pm

    Carlo, just to play devil’s advocate, some of those guys you are mentioning were acquired using our talent and not simply free agency. Also Andy was a starter, but at the time Mariano came up as a starter, ramiro mendoza played big roles on those teams, we had position players like Jorge and Jeter. The focus to the Yankees minor league system has been pitching where the depth is. When arguing building out of free agency it seems as though you run a much smaller risk signing position players to longer deals then you do pitchers, so much easier entering the free agency market looking for that rather than pitching which was available back then. The way teams lock up pitchers, none are available until they are 30 or older.

    ——————————————-

    The guys we gave away to get those guys never amounted to anything……which should be a lesson to some.

    Cone – traded jarvis, janzen, and gordon
    wells – free agent
    clemens – traded wells, bush, and lloyd to get him
    key – signed as free agent

    we did not win from 1996-2000 because we mortgaged the future to stockpile great starters….we won because we targeted the right players and we got them and we supplemented a once in a lifetime core of farm position player talent with big time free agent signings.

  267. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 3:25 pm

    The offseason plan didn’t work. So that’s where we are. It’s how you move going forward that matters. Theo’s offseason’s moves didn’t work the year he decided Penny, Smoltz and Baldelli filled their needs. Nor did it work getting out manuevered for Tex and then getting Lackey, Cameron, Scutaro, etc. You don’t win every time. Cashman did, however, get CC, AJ and Tex in one year. He also picked up Swisher when everyone was down on him for nothing. He landed Granderson out of no where solidifying the OF in advance of a few seasons of free agency. We would have had to chase Werth or spend even more money than was spent to try and get Crawford. Instead we have Grandy for this year and next making $14 a year which looked expensive at the time. He didn’t pull the trigger on Johan, wasting money on the deal while give up Hughes and more. So this was not a good offseason, but not all of them can be especially when they needed one specific pitcher who didn’t come here.

  268. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 3:25 pm

    “The point was they were not homegrown guys. And for all the talk about the Yankees trading away the farm and leaving the cupboard dry in the 2001-2008 period……..who did they trade away that would have helped? Frankly, we didn’t trade anything of value away over that span, so its not as though we made personnel mistakes, we just had a booty system that didn’t yield anything of value until Cano and Wang came along.”

    ——————

    They didn’t trade anything of value away because their farm system sucked.

    George gave away draft picks left and right and was not interested in investing in the draft.

    You can’t trade away value when there is basically nothing to trade away.

    And btw, the Yankees did almost trade away Wang and Cano. The Diamondbacks fortunately bailed them out by selecting the wrong prospects for Randy Johnson.

    Can you imagine how Yankees fan would feel if Robinson Cano was tearing it up in Arizona, because George wanted Randy Johnson so bad?

  269. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 3:26 pm

    I don’t think Crawford’s is a bad contract for the Red Sox. That kind of long-term speculation is IMO useless as no one knows what the future holds. Crawford might stay healthy and effective long past the contract expiration date, he’s only 29. Or he may not. One thing is for sure, short a freak injury it makes the Red Sox a much better team for the forseeable future.

    Sabthia may blow out his arm tomorrow or pitch another 5-6 years. No one knows.

  270. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 3:26 pm

    You can downplay it all you want, but the proof will be in the season one way or the other.

    If you expect him to regress, that’s your opinion. I don’t. I think he’s going to be a part in the best lineup he’s ever been in, and he’s going to take advantage. Acting as if it’s no big deal, or that the 20M is going to in some way hamper the Red Sox (who are absurdly lucrative) is just putting a water hose to a forest fire. It doesn’t make sense. He’s going to make them better for probably the next four years if healthy, which is a bad thing. Spin it however you want, but I would have loved to see him instead of Brett Gardner, who is nearly the same age as Crawford, with much, much less to bank on.

  271. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 3:27 pm

    Sabthia may blow out his arm tomorrow or pitch another 5-6 years. No one knows.

    Exactly.

  272. justinxdance27 December 21st, 2010 at 3:28 pm

    Last I checked, El Duque was trying to make his way back to pitch last year. Had pretty good numbers at Double A and below. LOL. He would totally fix our SP issues. :)

  273. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:28 pm

    Unless the price of all outfielders in baseball eclipses 20 million, it will be a bad contract. They are paying Crawford slightly less than they paid Manny Ramirez.

  274. Mell December 21st, 2010 at 3:29 pm

    “They weren’t. Guys like Tino, O’Neil, Knobby, Brosius, Boggs, etc. didn’t come up through the Yankee system despite what some of you want to tell yourselves”

    The guys Tino, O’Neill, Knoblauch, Justice, were traded for? Where’d they come from again?

  275. Cashman needs to go December 21st, 2010 at 3:29 pm

    Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 3:08 pm
    According to the report the Royals wanted Montero, Nunez, Banuelos or Betcances and then Adam Warren

    ****************************

    OK so a resourceful GM would then call back saying – how about we take montero out and replace him with romine (or sanchez) 1 or 2 more AA(A) pitchers who’s last name doesn’t start with a B the maximun allowed amount of money we can send your way and we’ll also take on one of your major league players with a bad contract that you are trying to get rid of…

    you see there is a way around not having to send a player you want to keep – you just have to be creative and not a prospect hugging dummy who has no idea what he is doing…

    the redsox did it with lowell when they wanted beckett (AND gave up their best prospect and another good pitcher) and the tigers did it with dontrelle willis when they wanted miguel cabrera (and gave up 2 of their best prospects)….

    the problem with cashman is he hangs up the phone and holds his breathe like a little baby when he doesn’t get his way rightaway….no creativity whatsoever except when he frosts his wig hair when rappeling down a building…

  276. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 3:29 pm

    LGY December 21st, 2010 at 3:25 pm

    “The point was they were not homegrown guys. And for all the talk about the Yankees trading away the farm and leaving the cupboard dry in the 2001-2008 period……..who did they trade away that would have helped? Frankly, we didn’t trade anything of value away over that span, so its not as though we made personnel mistakes, we just had a booty system that didn’t yield anything of value until Cano and Wang came along.”

    ——————

    They didn’t trade anything of value away because their farm system sucked.

    George gave away draft picks left and right and was not interested in investing in the draft.

    You can’t trade away value when there is basically nothing to trade away.

    —————

    For all we know, the farm system may stink right now…..thats the entire point. We had enough in the farm to get David Cone……and looking back, everyone we gave away to get him…..sucked.

  277. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    Carlo, I agree, but keep in mind the market is not the same as it was. There are free few guys who are good available in salary dump situations and there are many more teams out there like the Brewers were, willing to grab those players. A lot of the top pitchers in baseball are younger, under more reasonable contracts that teams don’t need to move them or are already on good teams. Phillies have a few right there. We have a few. Sox have a few. Giants. Grienke was just moved. So how many stud pitchers are still on bad teams right now like say Clemens was?

  278. Against All Odds December 21st, 2010 at 3:31 pm

    # Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 1:43 pm

    if lee and hallway both had to go back to the minors why couldn’t joba to relearn how to start?

    obviously starters are hard to find. why not try it as a calculated gamble? if it works you have a starter. if it doesn’t you have a reliever which is where they are now so i don’t see the downside.

    I would be up for this. However, I think the Yankees are more likely to just use him as a reliever, considering all the young pitching they have coming up.
    ———————————————–

    The do have pitching coming up but the pitching isn’t ready to step in at the moment. Even if Joba was a stop gap to the Killer B’s it wouldn’t be a bad thing. This whole chamberlain not starting thing is weird.

  279. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:31 pm

    Spin it however you want, but I would have loved to see him instead of Brett Gardner, who is nearly the same age as Crawford, with much, much less to bank on.

    He is only 1/40th the price. Giving the Yankees more payroll flexibility. You can talk about the money not being an issue all you want, but until teams actually prove they are willing to go beyond the luxury tax for multiple seasons its all talk. If money was not an issue the Yankees lineup and rotation would look a lot different, and bullpen.

    Money is an issue. Can’t hand wave it away.

    How about this, lets make a prediction as to what you think Crawford will do next season and I will make a prediction of what I think he will do next season?

    Just for fun.

  280. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:31 pm

    Oh and also predict what Brett Gardner will do as well.

  281. Bronx Jeers December 21st, 2010 at 3:31 pm

    Thome will only shamble if injured. Otherwise he’ll most likely lumber.

  282. ac1 December 21st, 2010 at 3:31 pm

    If you expect him to regress, that’s your opinion. I don’t. I think he’s going to be a part in the best lineup he’s ever been in, and he’s going to take advantage. Acting as if it’s no big deal, or that the 20M is going to in some way hamper the Red Sox (who are absurdly lucrative) is just putting a water hose to a forest fire. It doesn’t make sense. He’s going to make them better for probably the next four years if healthy, which is a bad thing. Spin it however you want, but I would have loved to see him instead of Brett Gardner, who is nearly the same age as Crawford, with much, much less to bank on.

    ___
    in theory, but they replaced beltre and martinez with gonzo and crawford. Id argue one is a slight upgrade (Gonzo-Beltre) and they other isn’t much different at all (Crawford-Martinez).

    Boston will steal more bases that is true, especially if ellsbury is healthy.

  283. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 3:32 pm

    # Mell December 21st, 2010 at 3:29 pm

    “They weren’t. Guys like Tino, O’Neil, Knobby, Brosius, Boggs, etc. didn’t come up through the Yankee system despite what some of you want to tell yourselves”

    The guys Tino, O’Neill, Knoblauch, Justice, were traded for? Where’d they come from again?

    ——————————————–

    Mell – tell me how many of the guys that were traded for the above players went on to have legitimate ML careers….pls only list the ones who had no major league experience prior to being dealt.

    You cant have it both ways….yes, they traded from the farm system……but if the guys they dealt were considered to be decent and all ended up amounting to nothing…..then why exactly do we covet the current crop so much?

  284. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:32 pm

    What is Crawford going to do with all the young, left handed pitching that is up in the AL east with his .680 OPS against lefties? He went to the team with the least amount of lefties in the pipe.

  285. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 3:33 pm

    Wait, so you’re going to leave out his second year, but include 2008? How generous of you!

  286. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 3:34 pm

    Guys – I firmly believe and agree with you that the market is no longer the same…..which is why I am not advocating dealing guys like Betances and Banuelos…….but we have to be reasonable about our expectations for these guys…….we are not a top 5 farm system….yet everyone acts like this system is virtually untouchable in nearly every level.

  287. ac1 December 21st, 2010 at 3:34 pm

    Crawford .292/15/77 probably 55 doubles
    Gardner .280/3/50 125 runs scored if he is leading off

    Crawford’s OF advantage is wasted at fenway because there is no left field there.

  288. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 3:35 pm

    Cashman needs to go

    Ok, the point here is, taking out Montero does not beat the Brewers offer first of all. Second, what bad contracts do the Royals have to take back? They don’t spend money. Montero couldn’t come out of that package if the Brewers offer was there.

    I agree with the Beckett/Lowell assumption. Which is why I say just stay in the Mariners ear. They stink, not going anywhere anytime soon. Offer to take back Figgins 3 years at $9 per year or Ichiro $17 per for the next two years on top of it. Figgins deal is really bad becuase he gives them nothing at all. Figgins would fit perfectly though as a utility guy and backup OF with speed for us. We would just be overpaying him by a lot. So I wouldn’t say empty the farm, but that’s where a deal like was mentioned for Grienke makes sense to me as well as giving them cap relief. I would feel a lot happier with Felix rather than Grienke.

  289. hardwired7 December 21st, 2010 at 3:35 pm

    It’s looking like Cashman has decided to run two draws up the middle for minimal gain and for some reason he’s punting on 3rd down.

  290. ac1 December 21st, 2010 at 3:36 pm

    What is Crawford going to do with all the young, left handed pitching that is up in the AL east with his .680 OPS against lefties? He went to the team with the least amount of lefties in the pipe.

    __

    Boston is so lefty dominant, perhaps the Yankees should even consider a 3rd lefty in the pen, at least one that can get lefties and righties out.

    At this point, i dont believe the Yankees will bring in any other significant Starting Pitching so i feel the have to make the bullpen more solid with Soriano. JUst give him the 8-10 mil/year he would get as a closer and tell him, here is an extra mil to be the EIG.

  291. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 3:36 pm

    Each team has exactly one good left right now. Tampa has Price, NY has CC, and Boston has Lester. Let’s not get carried away with the “amazing left handed talent” argument until it actually gets here.
    FYI, against CC:

    .296 .309 .389 .698

    Not as horrible as you’d like to spin.

  292. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:36 pm

    I also left out his first year. I gave you his two adjustment years where he OPS’d under .700, because I am so kind. If you include those his career OPS is under .800.

    Crawford has 1 elite tool, speed. He doesnt hit a spectacular amount of line drives, he isn’t a contact hitter, he doesn’t have power, he doesn’t have patience. He doesn’t see a lot of pitches.

    He just isn’t worth 20 mil and I am glad the yankees did not sign him. Now would I have preferred he gone to the Angels? Yes. Still, I won’t be quaking in my shoes when the Red Sox come to town. They’ve always had good lineups.

    I was much more scared when they had Manny, Ortiz, and Youkilis all in the same lineup.

  293. DaSaint007 December 21st, 2010 at 3:37 pm

    For a while I’ve had this crazy theory about Free Agent contracts, and it’s this.

    I think there’s a FA Bubble coming.

    Don’t ask me why, but I can’t see many teams signing players to $100-$150M contracts to 2 or 3 players. Sure the Yankees have CC, Tex, and ARod making those salaries, but I don’t think the Yankees have any intention – of signing many players with outrageous contracts in the near future.

    CC is set until 2015, when he’s making $23M
    Tex is set until 2016, when he’s making $22.5M
    Arod peaked last year at $33M, and decreases to $20M in 2017

    Cano will get a raise soon, but I don’t believe the Yankee ownership wants $100M players at every position, which is why moves like keeping Gardner, trading for Granderson and Swisher were made. They INTENTIONALLY passed on Crawford and Werth.

    Posada’s salary will be replaced by a kids – Montero, who won’t make squat for years.
    Gardner will be cost controlled for years also.
    Granderson, even with a raise, will be affordable, as will Swisher.

    After AJ leaves in 3 years – or actually starting this year – it’s the kids who are cost controlled for years, who will fill the rotation. Lee was an exception. He and CC could have anchored that staff for 5 more years, complemented by an affordable Hughes, plus 2 even cheaper options rounding out the rotation.

    The bullpen? It’s Mo and out. No more large contracts – again, that’s where the system fills out the needs.

    I think the Yankees see the bubble coming and are planning accordingly.
    Now I may be crazy – but that’s how I see it. No one ever sees it coming until it happens.

  294. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 3:37 pm

    Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:28 pm

    Unless the price of all outfielders in baseball eclipses 20 million, it will be a bad contract. They are paying Crawford slightly less than they paid Manny Ramirez.

    *************

    So what. A-Rod’s was a bad contract, Burnett’s was a bad contract. And we won a World Series in 2009 and almost made it there last year and have a shot to do it again.

    Crawford makes the Red Sox better now and for the near future that is what is important. The Red Sox have tons of money, they make tons of money. They won’t suffer because of that contract at all.

  295. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 3:38 pm

    The biggest problem with the current lack of plan set forth by the yankees is that their unwillingness to make moves to put the proper pieces around their aging core is going to result in one of the following:

    1 – you have a farm system that emerges and delivers, but you have no foundation left and you have a bunch of old/tapioca players at the end of contracts (jeter/arod most prominently)

    2 – you do nothing, and the farm system talent you thought you had turns out to be a bust and you have a foundation of old/tapioca players at the end of contracts (jeter/arod again)

    The team unfortunately is not constructed to win 3 years from now….it is constructed to win now…..and having virtually no starting staff and horses all over the field is exactly what didnt work from 2004-2008. The window doesnt stay open forever.

  296. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 3:38 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 21st, 2010 at 3:19 pm
    Chip-

    More stunning than your initial “if Cashman didn’t do it it shouldn’t be done or discussed” response, which was moronic.

    Deals are never slam dunks – if you wait for one you’ll never get it, and if you do you are almost certain to be wrong.

    ————————–

    Bobby Abreu and Corey Lidle for nothing — slam dunk
    Roger Clemens for Boomer Wells and chum — slam dunk
    Jake Westbrook, Ted Lilly + for Hideki Irabu — slam dunk
    Curtis Granderson for Austin Jackson, Phil Coke and IPK — slam dunk
    Alex Rodriguez for Alfonso Soriano and Arias — slam dunk
    Aaron Boone for Brandon Claussen — slam dunk
    Lance Berkman for Mark Melancon and chum — slam dunk

    The Yankees passed on Santana because it wasn’t a slam dunk for them – that worked out fine for the Yankees too.

    Cashman rarely if ever deals his top prospects, he certainly wasn’t including two or three of them in a deal for a pitcher he thought might go all Ed Whitson on him. He had enough of that with Javy and Randy Johnson.

  297. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 3:39 pm

    It also is a lot easier to gradually build thru a core rather than try to bring in a core of players.

    Four key positions that are hard to develop : C, SS, SP and Closer.

    Yankees filled all three spots with all star caliber players internally

    Just ask the Red Sox how hard it is. They have developed SP by not giving away draft picks : Lester and Bucholz – they traded for Beckett, signed Dice K. Papelbon and Bard are internal. And they still haven’t found a replacement for Veritek and have signed or traded for how many SS over the last 7-8 years?

  298. 108 stitches December 21st, 2010 at 3:39 pm

    Thinking back, Cashman may have sensed that Cliff Lee was jerking teams around and it wasn’t a given that he’d sign with the Yankees.
    Meanwhile as he waited for Darek Braunecker and his client to get off the pot, he figured he might as well beat Epstein at his own game with buying a dinner for Crawford thus driving up the price for Crawford’s services when he had no interest in doing anything about the OF of the Yankees as it was.
    With some help from Jayson Werth, Crawford piggybacked what he did with Washington and took Boston’s offer.

  299. ac1 December 21st, 2010 at 3:39 pm

    Important this April that Tex does NOT start the year batting .150 until mid may.

  300. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 3:39 pm

    Boston’s lineup is not going to be lefty dominant, as far as relievers against them go. I figure it’s probably going to look like this:

    Crawford – L
    Pedroia – R
    Gonzalez – L
    Youkilis – R
    Ortiz – L
    Scutaro – R
    Drew – L
    Salt – R
    Ellsbury – L

    Or Lowrie who is Switch.

  301. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 3:41 pm

    Oh and WCYF if you want some more “slam dunk” trades I can give them to you; as for your brainless assertion that those trades “are almost certain to be wrong” the only ones that come to mind are the ones involving Randy Johnson, Kevin Brown and Javy Vazquez which only serves to prove why Cashman was right to walk away from the Greinke deal.

  302. DaSaint007 December 21st, 2010 at 3:41 pm

    One more thing – and this is a different way at looking at it – should the Yankees drop below the luxury tax, a lot of teams will have a lot less to spend in FA.

  303. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    Each team has exactly one good left right now. Tampa has Price, NY has CC, and Boston has Lester. Let’s not get carried away with the “amazing left handed talent” argument until it actually gets here.
    FYI, against CC:

    .296 .309 .389 .698

    Not as horrible as you’d like to spin.

    Wow a .309 on base and no power. Great, so he gets a single every now and then.

    The Rays have Price on the team with Matt Moore and Jake McGee and Alex Torres coming up.
    Baltimore has Matusz and Zach Britton
    The Yankees have CC of course, their lefty relievers, and Banuelos on the way
    The blue jays have Romero, Cecil, and Ralphabet

  304. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    I was much more scared when they had Manny, Ortiz, and Youkilis all in the same lineup.

    Now they have Gonzalez (who’s better/as good as Manny ever was…and will be better in Fenway), Ortiz, and Youkilis. And Crawford.

    But as stated, we’ll see I guess. It’s going to go one way or the other.

  305. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 3:43 pm

    And also let us realize that any player AA level or below has limited trade value even with a high ceiling. The Yankees prospects like the Bs or Romine or even the lower level guys need another year to develop to make them real prize chips as they aren’t close to helping other teams yet. If they were, we wouldn’t be looking to trade them for pieces we need. We would simply slot them in where needed. They aren’t ready and therefore we need to send along a few of them to get something back where maybe mid season they are more highly thought of when they play in AAA then they are right now.

  306. ac1 December 21st, 2010 at 3:43 pm

    Crawford makes the Red Sox better now and for the near future that is what is important. The Red Sox have tons of money, they make tons of money. They won’t suffer because of that contract at all.

    __

    Agree that they won’t be hampered by the high salaries, but they also lost mvp candidate beltre and v-mart who was big for them too.

  307. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 3:43 pm

    Carlo,

    Like I said to WCYF this morning, I don’t know if the Yankees have a top 5 system, but they are definitely in the conversation.

    At worst they are in the 5-10 range, but I would not be surprised at all if the Yankees fall somewhere between 4-6.

  308. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 3:44 pm

    You’re right, man…

    You clearly know more than MLB front offices. What a horrible contract they gave him. What a terrible player. Can you believe they did that?

  309. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:44 pm

    Crawford – L
    Pedroia – R
    Gonzalez – L
    Youkilis – R
    Ortiz – L
    Scutaro – R
    Drew – L
    Salt – R
    Ellsbury – L

    The major hitters outside of Youkilis are all left handed. The only two righties who are good hitters are Pedroia and Youkilis.

  310. ac1 December 21st, 2010 at 3:45 pm

    i dont know how to tell who has the best system but what i do see is the Yankees A, AA and AAA teams either winning the championships or at least getting there every year. Has to mean something.

  311. G. Love December 21st, 2010 at 3:46 pm

    Losing Eric Milton and Cristian Guzman for Knobby didn’t exactly kill the Yankee farm system.

    Most of the prospects traded in the dynasty years amounted to nothing. None of them turned into stars unless you miss Sterling H., Drew Henson, Willy Mo Pena, Marty Janzen, etc.

    In almost all those cases the Yankees didn’t make those trades because they had the best prospects in baseball. They made those trades because they didn’t bat an eyelash at what the players wanted monetarily. The teams were dumping salaries on the Yankees. When we got Tino and Jeff Nelson, that was a salary dump. Knobby was a salary dump.

    Our prospects had less to do with those deal than George’s willingness to pay those players what they wanted.

    At no point in our dynasty years did the Yankee go into the season with the likes of Nova and Mitre as the back of the rotation with the hopes that AA pitchers would progress to the majors to save the season.

  312. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 3:46 pm

    Great, so he gets a single every now and then.

    So getting hits no longer counts? I didn’t even realize that hits didn’t matter anymore.

    Again, lets hold off until at least ONE of the young left handers actually pitch. Then again, you’ve seen him play more than me, so I’m sure you’re right with re: to his untimely demise now that he’s in the AL East. Oh, wait..

  313. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:47 pm

    You clearly know more than MLB front offices. What a horrible contract they gave him. What a terrible player. Can you believe they did that?

    What is this like an appeal to authority? Baseball front offices make stupid moves all the time. The rays had to shed salary this year. The Red Sox won’t go over the luxury tax line. The tigers got mired with a 110 million dollar loser because they couldn’t spend their way out of it.
    The mariners are a 100 mil loser.

    Look at all these teams. Baseball is a billion dollar industry and these teams won’t spend 200 mil to fix their teams?

    And you think the Red Sox are going to be fine when they have never proven to spend like the Yankees have?

    And A-gon is not better than Manny in his prime, and Ortiz is not better than Ortiz in his prime, and youkilis is leaving his prime.

  314. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 3:47 pm

    Chip December 21st, 2010 at 3:41 pm

    Oh and WCYF if you want some more “slam dunk” trades I can give them to you; as for your brainless assertion that those trades “are almost certain to be wrong” the only ones that come to mind are the ones involving Randy Johnson, Kevin Brown and Javy Vazquez which only serves to prove why Cashman was right to walk away from the Greinke deal.

    ************

    Huh??? Wrong person Chip.

  315. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 3:47 pm

    # Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 3:43 pm

    And also let us realize that any player AA level or below has limited trade value even with a high ceiling. The Yankees prospects like the Bs or Romine or even the lower level guys need another year to develop to make them real prize chips as they aren’t close to helping other teams yet. If they were, we wouldn’t be looking to trade them for pieces we need. We would simply slot them in where needed. They aren’t ready and therefore we need to send along a few of them to get something back where maybe mid season they are more highly thought of when they play in AAA then they are right now.

    —————————-

    Wait, the B’s arent automatic? I already assumed we would win 98 games in 2014 like this:

    Pen wins 25
    B’s win 40 combined
    cc wins 15
    hughes wins 18

    you mean i shouldnt count on this?

  316. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 3:47 pm

    The Yankees are most likely going to have 5 top 100 prospects and up to 3 of them in the top 25.

    They could have up to 7 guys in the top 100.

    The Yankees have a very, very strong system right now that can stack up with just about anyone.

  317. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 3:48 pm

    Also, our “prospects” weren’t quite the talent we have at the moment. We didn’t exactly hold onto our draft choices for many a year by signing guys so it’s not like guys that were traded were top 100 prospects in all of baseball. We do have some now.

  318. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 3:48 pm

    # ac1 December 21st, 2010 at 3:45 pm

    i dont know how to tell who has the best system but what i do see is the Yankees A, AA and AAA teams either winning the championships or at least getting there every year. Has to mean something.

    —————————-

    nope, means absolutely nothing.

  319. ac1 December 21st, 2010 at 3:48 pm

    Ok this has to be said again. I dont know who will be #4 and #5 but i would bet a lot of money neither is Sergio Mitre.

  320. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 3:49 pm

    Well lets hope everyone is right about Crawford and left handed stuff. I happen to think it’s overblown a bit, but we’ll see.
    It’s not like they all fall off the map against Lefties. Well, Ortiz does, but really, between the rest of them, they’re still above average on the surface.

  321. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:49 pm

    Then again, you’ve seen him play more than me, so I’m sure you’re right with re: to his untimely demise now that he’s in the AL East. Oh, wait..

    I never said he was doomed or anything, you just need to temper your fear of the almighty crawford. He has a deficiency vs left handed pitching. He isn’t a contact hitter. He only makes contact 80% of the time and he will swing out of the zone. lefties can get him out and neutralize him. And he just moved to the team with the least amount of lefties in a park that will reduce his overall power numbers.

    You haven’t given me your prediction for Gardner and Crawford yet.

  322. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 3:49 pm

    cliffjumper – Francona should be fired if a healthy Ellsbury isn’t leading off IMO.

  323. ac1 December 21st, 2010 at 3:50 pm

    Carlo, if you are so convinced of the Yankees doom, why even bother to watch? Might as well go take the year off and cheer for the Red Sox, since they ahve made the moves you have been looking for.

  324. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:50 pm

    .300 .350 .453 <– bill james super optimistic projection for Crawford.

  325. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 3:50 pm

    West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 3:47 pm
    Chip December 21st, 2010 at 3:41 pm

    Oh and WCYF if you want some more “slam dunk” trades I can give them to you; as for your brainless assertion that those trades “are almost certain to be wrong” the only ones that come to mind are the ones involving Randy Johnson, Kevin Brown and Javy Vazquez which only serves to prove why Cashman was right to walk away from the Greinke deal.

    ************

    Huh??? Wrong person Chip.

    —-

    Sorry – I meant Wave

    I apologize for suggesting that you are a tool WCYF

  326. Against All Odds December 21st, 2010 at 3:50 pm

    # Chip December 21st, 2010 at 2:19 pm

    Mike Ri December 21st, 2010 at 2:14 pm
    Joba isn’t going to start !! that ship sailed a long time ago

    ———————-

    And what infuriates me is that there is still an opportunity for him to start.

    When reports surfaced that Andy was leaning towards retirement I would have been on the phone with Girardi and Rothschild in a heartbeat, “Skip, what do I have to do to get in the mix for the starting job? You said last year Phil got the last spot because his secondary stuff was better than mine; Larry, can you and I set up some time down in Tampa for me to work on some things.”

    I would have been busting my butt all winter long to get into shape and build the stamina that a starter needs.

    Joba did nothing.

    What a waste.
    ————————————————

    Two things one it’s a little hard for someone to campaign for a starting job when it was determined last season he was never going to start again under any circumstance. I can refer to quotes from Cashman, Eppler, and Eiland if you want.

    Two how do you know Joba didn’t do what you said but was told no. Think about it a couple of days ago Cashman felt the need to come out and reiterate that Joba is not an option to be in the rotation. To my knowledge no radio host or sports columnist is banging the drum for Joba to start. The only ppl that have openly brought up the idea are callers and fans on the internet. For Cashman to once again poo poo the idea you can assmue that either Joba or someone in the organization brought about Chamberlain’s name as a potential starter.

  327. Cashman needs to go December 21st, 2010 at 3:51 pm

    Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 3:35 pm
    Cashman needs to go

    Ok, the point here is, taking out Montero does not beat the Brewers offer first of all. Second, what bad contracts do the Royals have to take back? They don’t spend money. Montero couldn’t come out of that package if the Brewers offer was there.

    ********************************

    Gil Meche – 12.5 million dollars per year (0-5, 5.69era, 1.67 whip in 2010)give them sergio mitre to replace him

    Jason Kendall – 2.3 million per yr (256 ba, 0 hr, 37rbi in 434 ab’s in 2010 – could have traded them cervelli who replaces kendall’s numbers easily and is paid 400k)

    Jeff Franceour 5 million dollars (I know they just picked him up – but you take on that horrible contract and trade them one of the AAA of’ers or even gardner if THAT’S what it takes to keep montero – you then have montero play the OF in the minors this year and you’ll have your rightfielder of the future)

    you see its not that hard being creative…

  328. Carl December 21st, 2010 at 3:51 pm

    A-Gon as good or better than Manny?

    What?

  329. Wave Your Hat December 21st, 2010 at 3:51 pm

    “The Yankees are most likely going to have 5 top 100 prospects and up to 3 of them in the top 25. ”

    LGY-

    You think 3 in the top 25? Besides Montero, who? Sanchez and Betances? I think that’s an aggressive forecast. I see Sanchez somewhere between 40-60, Betances 50-70, but of course I could easily be wrong.

  330. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 3:52 pm

    # ac1 December 21st, 2010 at 3:50 pm

    Carlo, if you are so convinced of the Yankees doom, why even bother to watch? Might as well go take the year off and cheer for the Red Sox, since they ahve made the moves you have been looking for.
    ————————————————-

    What part of prospect rankings and order of finish in the MILB standings relates at all to my view of the 2011 Yankee major league team?

    Where did I say i wish we got Crawford or i wish we got Gonzo? I recall saying Crawford makes Boston better then they were….but thats about it.

  331. LGY December 21st, 2010 at 3:52 pm

    G. Love,

    MLB is not comparable now to it was back then.

    It is a thriving industry with much more teams having money to burn.

    Those type of salary dumps just don’t happen anymore with close to the frequency they did back then.

    Frontline pitchers in their prime just don’t hit the FA market much anymore, because teams have money to lock them up.

    CC was a free agent pitcher in his prime during the 2008 offseason. It looks it could be another 2 years before another Ace hits the market in his prime.

    That is a FOUR YEAR gap.

    4 years.

    MLB is just not what it used to be. You have to adjust and the Yankees are doing that loading their system with young pitching prospects.

  332. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 3:52 pm

    Never said to count on anything, just saying that I would trade guys smartly. I think quite a few guys are expendable. But those are not the guys that are centerpieces of any trades. Betcances missed most of the year with an injury, is only at AA. Could he headline a trade? Sure. Just not now. I would try to hold onto Banuelos because of his age, he’s a lefty, has the tools and experience in the Mexican league. And Montero from a hitting prespective is a beast and may end up batting 3-6 in this lineup. Trade him for a young stud pitcher, but otherwise he’s not available. But the point is Betcances, Romine, Brackman and say Warren packaged up is not bringing a Roger Clemens in his prime pitcher back in return.

  333. Chip December 21st, 2010 at 3:53 pm

    ac1 December 21st, 2010 at 3:48 pm
    Ok this has to be said again. I dont know who will be #4 and #5 but i would bet a lot of money neither is Sergio Mitre.

    ————————–

    I would agree with you – but for this odd fascination that Girardi and Cashman seem to have with Mitre. I mean I would have bet good money that he wouldn’t be on the team last year or this coming year at all – they seem to love the guy though.

    I think it needs to be pointed out that while some pitchers do have more life on the fastball after TJ surgery a generally crummy pitcher pre-TJ is probably going to be a generally crummy pitcher post-TJ too.

  334. blake December 21st, 2010 at 3:54 pm

    Crawford would have been a good buy at 5/85 or so. Actually that’s about what everyone was predicting he would sign for last winter when “we should pass on Holliday because next years draft is so much better and Crawford will be cheaper if Gardner doesn’t pan out”……good thing Gardner did pan out. Crawfords deal is a bigtime over pay by the Sox……

  335. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 3:54 pm

    Chip December 21st, 2010 at 3:53 pm

    ac1 December 21st, 2010 at 3:48 pm
    Ok this has to be said again. I dont know who will be #4 and #5 but i would bet a lot of money neither is Sergio Mitre.

    ————————–

    I would agree with you – but for this odd fascination that Girardi and Cashman seem to have with Mitre. I mean I would have bet good money that he wouldn’t be on the team last year or this coming year at all – they seem to love the guy though.

    ——————

    If Mitre is even in consideration for the 5 spot come March then this team has problems. Or wait, is Mitre/Dice K a wash?

  336. blake December 21st, 2010 at 3:55 pm

    Next years FA class….not draft.

  337. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 3:55 pm

    # blake December 21st, 2010 at 3:54 pm

    Crawford would have been a good buy at 5/85 or so. Actually that’s about what everyone was predicting he would sign for last winter when “we should pass on Holliday because next years draft is so much better and Crawford will be cheaper if Gardner doesn’t pan out”……good thing Gardner did pan out. Crawfords deal is a bigtime over pay by the Sox……

    ———————————–

    If the dominoes with lee fell sooner, Crawford would have been an even biggertime overpay by Cashman.

  338. ac1 December 21st, 2010 at 3:55 pm

    you see its not that hard being creative…

    ___

    yeah because im sure just because you get creative, essentially the deal is done.

  339. Cashman needs to go December 21st, 2010 at 3:56 pm

    Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 3:43 pm
    And also let us realize that any player AA level or below has limited trade value even with a high ceiling

    ****************

    I’m sorry phrancise I’m really not picking on you but….

    Ask Jed Hoyer about the 3 AA players (and someone named eric patterson) and nothing else he took for Adrian Gonzalez…

  340. ac1 December 21st, 2010 at 3:56 pm

    If Mitre is even in consideration for the 5 spot come March then this team has problems. Or wait, is Mitre/Dice K a wash?

    __

    this i will agree with.

  341. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 3:56 pm

    New Post —->

  342. randy l. December 21st, 2010 at 3:58 pm

    “The game has also changed to a large degree in being able to obtain guys like Cone and Clemens. It is much more rare and it is much more expensive talent wise.”

    so how did the phillies pull off their rotation in these times ?

  343. cliffjumper December 21st, 2010 at 3:59 pm

    Age MR oWAR AG oWAR MR WAR AG WAR
    24 4.7 2.1 3.9 2.9
    25 4.6 3.0 3.8 3.8
    26 4.5 2.9 4.7 2.9
    27 7.8 5.7 8.0 7.0
    28 6.4 5.7 4.4 6.3

    So no, they’re not equal, but combined with moving from the worst park in baseball to a friendly one, I’d say that Gonzalez’ prime years are going to match right up. Plus, he plays such a superior defense that it kind of equals out. Unless of course that doesn’t matter to you. But, I suppose you think that’s no big deal in Boston either. He’ll be horrible against lefties, I suppose.
    You’re right, though. Ortiz is not the threat he was or anywhere near it, but Youkilis has improved every year sans his hurt year, where he was on pace to another career year, which is why he’ll be behind or in front of Gonzalez and not Ortiz.

  344. joeman December 21st, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    Mitre & Nova should be no more than long RP….not the # 4 & 5 SP on this team…..

    CC..ace
    Hughes.. should be better in 11
    AJ….who knows
    Nova….one time around the order & he’s done
    Mitre….is a waste

  345. Phranchise December 21st, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    Yeah and Hoyer worked for the Sox and people gushed over casey kelly. The only funny or not funny part to that was, the Yankees were projected to get him and instead we drafted Gerrit Cole.

  346. Cashman needs to go December 21st, 2010 at 4:03 pm

    yeah because im sure just because you get creative, essentially the deal is done

    ****************

    but if you don’t even try then are you really doing your job as GM? If you really really want the toaster i’m selling in my garage sale and i ask $200 dollars for it but you don’t want to pay that much won’t you offer me something less for it just to see how motivated i am to sell it? Don’t you think the tigers initailly asked for something more than austin jackson, coke and kennedy for granderson? Cashman – I’m sure – had to get creative and called the d’backs to work something out where everyone felt they came away as winners…

  347. Cashman needs to go December 21st, 2010 at 4:06 pm

    gerritt cole – yet another top notch decision by cashman – even i read that signing him was going to be next to impossible…and i don’t even waste my time reading about drafts since about 3% of them even sniff the majors..

  348. RayVT December 21st, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    Thanks Carlo! Dice-K & Lackey are both horrible! That is why I said they are a wash!

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