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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Yankees luxury tax drops more than $7 million

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 21, 2010 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

I’ll leave this one to The Associated Press.

NEW YORK (AP) — The New York Yankees lowered spending on players by $12 million this year, cutting payroll by $5 million and slashing their major league-leading luxury tax by more than $7 million.

New York was hit with an $18 million luxury tax Tuesday by Major League Baseball. The tax was New York’s lowest since 2003 and down from $25.7 million last year, when the Yankees won the World Series.

“Atta baby. And right now we’re in the $170s,” Yankees general manager Brian Cashman said, looking ahead to his 2011 payroll.

Season-ending payroll information and the tax was sent to teams Tuesday and obtained by The Associated Press.

Boston is the only other team that will have to pay. The Red Sox, who missed the playoffs this year, exceeded the payroll threshold for the first time since 2007 and owe $1.49 million.

New York’s payroll was $215.1 million for the purpose of the luxury tax, down from $226.2 million, and the Yankees pay at a 40 percent rate for the amount over the threshold, which rose from $162 million to $170 million. Boston’s luxury-tax payroll was $176.6 million, and the Red Sox pay at a 22.5 percent rate.

“We’re doing a better job of managing our payroll and managing our decision-making as we enter the free-agent market,” Cashman said. “Our payroll doesn’t necessarily have to live at that level, but it’s nice to know that our owners are committed to allow us to get there if we need to.”

To compute the payroll, Major League Baseball uses the average annual values of contracts for players on 40-man rosters and adds benefits. The Yankees failed to land free-agent pitcher Cliff Lee despite being given permission from ownership to make a $150 million, seven-year offer. Lee agreed to a $120 million, five-year deal with Philadelphia.

“We weren’t going to exceed where we were this past year, but the bottom line is that now that the Lee thing has declared itself, it would be hard-pressed for us to get up to that level,” Cashman said.

Some notes and links:

ALCS Rangers Yankees Baseball• A.J. Burnett is getting himself ready to work with Larry Rothschild next week in Maryland. Ken Davidoff reports that Rothschild is expected to visit Burnett for a week to 10 days.

• In the notes of the Davidoff story is this quote from Cashman about why Joba Chamberlain is no longer considered a rotation option: “His stuff plays so much significantly (better) out of the ‘pen. We had given him an opportunity to pitch in the rotation, and the velocity dropped. It’s just not the same stuff.”

Governor David Patterson has been charged $62,125 for his tickets to the 2009 World Series. The charge includes the face value of the seats, plus fines.

• The Yankees aren’t the only ones finding the price of pitching a little extreme. The Mets are also waiting for the prices to drop.

Austin Kearns on his return to Cleveland: “I enjoyed playing here. There are a lot of good guys on this team. Guys I’ve maintained relationships with. They have a lot of talented young guys on this team.”

• The Plain Dealer listed three right-handed outfield alternatives to Kearns. Two of them are familiar names: Shelley Duncan and Chad Huffman.

Associated Press photo

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314 Responses to “Yankees luxury tax drops more than $7 million”

  1. P December 21st, 2010 at 9:52 pm

    REPOST:

    what about the yanks not attempting to grab Aroldis Chapman? Another blown chance perhaps? what does this team need now cheap risks or expensive proven talent and nothing in between??

    I’m annoyed at the current state of this off season!!

  2. JK December 21st, 2010 at 9:52 pm

    The Yankees AAV payroll is 157M right now

  3. JK December 21st, 2010 at 9:54 pm

    Jerkface & Blake,

    I wasnt talking about inning totals they could possibly throw, I was talking about development innings @ AAA they were away from the majors if they pitch well.

  4. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 10:00 pm

    what about the yanks not attempting to grab Aroldis Chapman?

    As I said, they did attempt. He was offered 30 million for 6 years and still has very erratic stuff. The Yankees would have had to clear a 40 man spot and then either rushed him to the majors, or had 2 dead spots on the 40 man while they develop chappy.

  5. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 10:00 pm

    In the notes of the Davidoff story is this quote from Cashman about why Joba Chamberlain is no longer considered a rotation option: “His stuff plays so much significantly (better) out of the ‘pen. We had given him an opportunity to pitch in the rotation, and the velocity dropped. It’s just not the same stuff.”
    ++++++++++++++
    I’m very disappointed in his reasoning. Halladay, Lee, Brendon Morrow, Liriano, and many others took a while ot find themselves, and Joba isn’t given a second chaacne with a new pitching coach?! WTF (can one say “the” on this blog?)!?!?

    Joba was throwing only 84 or so in the bullpen at the beginning of the season, and didn’t reach 97 until late. Perhaps his velocity has something ot do with his shoulder and the recovery time took a year plus?

    This just seems dumb.

  6. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 10:02 pm

    I hope some reporters like Chad ask Cashman about what I posted above. What if his velocity improvement was simply him building arm strength?

    Add Curt Shilling to the above list of players that took a while.

  7. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 10:02 pm

    I hope some reporters like Chad ask Cashman about what I posted above. What if his velocity improvement was simply him building arm strength?

    Add Curt Shilling to the above list of players that took a while.

  8. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 10:03 pm

    Why did that repeat?

  9. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 10:04 pm

    Typo–s/b 94 not 84

  10. P December 21st, 2010 at 10:04 pm

    jerkface, that’s scouting as well as Cashman failure if u ask me!

    they should of seen that as a very worthwhile risk.. now we r stuck in limbo needing SP and RP!

  11. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 10:09 pm

    jerkface, that’s scouting as well as Cashman failure if u ask me!

    If all Chapman ever becomes is an erratic reliever, then it would not be a failure. He certainly wouldn’t be starting for us this year. And we couldnt have him relieve because he needs innings and to refine his secondary stuff. He’d be in the minors for 3 years on the yankees.

  12. Pat M. December 21st, 2010 at 10:09 pm

    Bojo….Go look at video of Chamberlain from 07-08-09-10, you’ll be stunned to see the changes in his delivery….He has poor balance above the rubber and his leg kicks are never consistent as his his follow thru…..His back arc changes which tells me his legs and core are not supporting consistent mechanics….

  13. J. Alfred Prufrock December 21st, 2010 at 10:10 pm

    Hey Chad,why not ask if Billy Eppeler was a prime mover in putting the brakes on Joba the Starter?This guy seems to have shaped the FO position they now defend.Congrats on getting a quote from Cashman that says ANYTHING on the Joba front that isn’t: “He’s a reliever. That’s it.” But I translate “his stuff plays better in the pen” as “We certainly have no idea how to help him regain what he had in 2008.”

  14. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 10:12 pm

    Pat–I totally agree which is why I mentioned ballet. Half joke, yes…but I think he could actually benefit from the balance training aspect. Better body and balance control might lead to better delivery mechanics.

  15. J. Alfred Prufrock December 21st, 2010 at 10:14 pm

    I’m very disappointed in his reasoning. Halladay, Lee, Brendon Morrow, Liriano, and many others took a while ot find themselves, and Joba isn’t given a second chaacne with a new pitching coach?! WTF (can one say “the” on this blog?)!?!?

    Joba was throwing only 84 or so in the bullpen at the beginning of the season, and didn’t reach 97 until late. Perhaps his velocity has something ot do with his shoulder and the recovery time took a year plus?

    This just seems dumb.

    ///Bumgarner is another example of a guy nearly given up on. He suddenly experienced an upsurge in velo.happens all the time,esp with younger arms.the idea that this isn’t a fluid situation AT ALL and the door gets slammed just underscores how inept the yanks have been here.if rothschild doesn’t have bigger plans for Chamberlain than middle relief I’d be very unimpressed.

  16. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 10:15 pm

    In my mind, I think better balance and body control would improve his delivery consistency and reduce strain on his shoulder..also helping him recover the loss of movement on his slider…

    I think it was the loss of movement on his slider more than anything that hurt Joba once his velocity returned. He didn’t have the killer out pitch he had in 2008 out of the pen. When Joba could throw 97-98 on the corner at the knees, and follow it with that slider starting in the same location, hitters never had a chance.

  17. Bronx Jeers December 21st, 2010 at 10:18 pm

    “Atta baby. And right now we’re in the $170s,”

    ——————————————————————————

    With a rotation of 3. And one of those was the worst pitcher the Yankees ever gave 30+ starts to.

    Am I missing something here? Wasn’t it like a week ago they were offering Lee $22M a season? Now it’s “atta baby” when they don’t have to pay him.

    They went from “Cliff Lee or bust” to “Cool! we’re busted!”

  18. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 10:18 pm

    “Atta baby” – fellas, cashman has a mandate to lower payroll now that Lee is gone. That’s that. This team won’t be opening the books for more than a few $1-2 mm a year guys here and there. Guarantee this bench stinks yet again.

  19. J. Alfred Prufrock December 21st, 2010 at 10:20 pm

    BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 10:15 pm
    In my mind, I think better balance and body control would improve his delivery consistency and reduce strain on his shoulder..also helping him recover the loss of movement on his slider…

    ///I think this was the objective when they tried to retool his delivery,worried he was too armsy.it might have just been something they should not have messed with.what makes no sense to a pair of outside eyes can make kinesthetic sense.that fast arm he had was gone and his fb was flat after that.

  20. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 10:20 pm

    Carlo–I don’t accept that as fact.

    I hold out hope for more moves, and will judge your statement at the end of ST and after July 31.

  21. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 10:21 pm

    Does Cashman think fans who are paying 25% more for season tickets this year appreciate them fielding a worse team and spending 15-20% less to do so while waiting for AA pitchers to maybe one day be decent? He thinks he should be celebrating this epic failure of an offseason? Is his new strategy whiffing on moves and then cozying up to hank and hal by not spending their money?

  22. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 10:22 pm

    JAP–retooling his delivery without working on the basic balance and body control aspects is like painting without the primer. No base to work from.

    I think you work on the basic muscle control and awareness, and then add the retooling so that his body can repeat the change more easily.

  23. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 10:23 pm

    Bojo – fair enough. That’s my gut right now. He knows this team isn’t good enough to win so at the very least at year end he can say, “hey fellas, look, we made a lot more net income this year by saving $35 mm on players”.

  24. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 10:23 pm

    Carlo–I do agree that so far he speaks with forked tongue.

  25. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 10:24 pm

    Who are these bench guys the Yankees should be signing?

  26. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 10:25 pm

    Johnny Bench?

  27. ac1 December 21st, 2010 at 10:26 pm

    i dont generally agree with Carlo, but on one point i do. They are shedding payroll and putting a seemingly weaker team out there, but continuing to raise prices on everything.

    if the yankees dont win, people will not pay these outrageous prices to fill the stadium and then lets see how Hal’s business works.

  28. Doreen December 21st, 2010 at 10:27 pm

    Are they playing tomorrow?

  29. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 10:27 pm

    I can throw a rock from my window and hit guys that are better than ramiro pena and greg golson right now.

  30. BTX December 21st, 2010 at 10:28 pm

    Cash seems like he is happy that the payroll is as low as it is now, as if the team will prove something if it stays in that region.

  31. GreenBeret7 December 21st, 2010 at 10:28 pm

    I seem to remember that that “stinking bench” helped to win qiuite a few games in 2010.

  32. Pat M. December 21st, 2010 at 10:29 pm

    Carlo….It’s possible that Cahman has his marching orders from The suits ( Hal, Lonnie & that hump Randy Levine )……..I remember when it was announced that The Yanks were going to make Joba a starter several of the guys I know in the game said then it was going to be a mistake…..It was believed that Joba could be one of the great closers in the game’s history…..Now we have him throwing in the 6th inning and we hold our breathe when he takes the hill……

  33. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 10:29 pm

    I can throw a rock from my window and hit guys that are better than ramiro pena and greg golson right now.

    Name them and how would you sign them.

  34. J. Alfred Prufrock December 21st, 2010 at 10:31 pm

    BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 10:22 pm
    JAP–retooling his delivery without working on the basic balance and body control aspects is like painting without the primer. No base to work from.

    I think you work on the basic muscle control and awareness, and then add the retooling so that his body can repeat the change more easily.

    ///Bojo – I think they were trying to get his legs under him more actually,because his arm was ahead.Problem is,it resulted in him being slower to the plate from his kick to ejection of the ball which could account for decrease in velo.they also didn’t like his stiff front leg IIRC.they also put in that hesitation when he set to slow everything down.I am still not sure why this is all so terminal.

  35. Yanks78 December 21st, 2010 at 10:31 pm

    At least the Mets cut prices when they decided they were going to have a bridge year. We have to pay top prices to see some combination of Mitre, Nova, Phelps, Garcia, Burnett, etc. pitching 3 out of 5 days with the Pillsbury Doughboy Joba in the 8th inning…

  36. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 10:32 pm

    I remember when it was announced that The Yanks were going to make Joba a starter several of the guys I know in the game said then it was going to be a mistake

    Did those guys realize Joba started and dominated in the minors?

  37. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 10:32 pm

    The Yanks? No Doreen, season starts in April so yes, there is time to make some trades and dump some salaries ;).

    U guys get all bent out of shape when I speak negatively. I’m a realist. That’s it. They were willing to spend on Lee, now they just want to save money. They seemingly have no interest in doing anything at all. Will they add two starters before April, sure…….but neither will be clearly better or more expensive than mitre. Its window dressing time now fellas and I couldn’t be more discouraged by it. I’ll be cheering for them all year, win or lose, but sometime in July you will all acknowledge what I see right now…..this team isn’t good enough and it isn’t improving much from here.

  38. Eroc December 21st, 2010 at 10:34 pm

    That Cashman quote is hilarious… almost like he is bragging about going into the year with such a low payroll, showing the world that he doesn’t need $200 mil to win…

  39. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 10:36 pm

    I refuse to even waste my time responding to people who try to claim that a bench of ramiro pena, francisco cervelli, and greg golson is even remotely respectable. Its so absoultely assinine that it doesn’t merit me trying to explain how easily it can be improved upon. Anyone who claims the 2010 bench throught the regular season was anything other than a mockery is in fantasyland and deserves to stay there.

  40. Pat M. December 21st, 2010 at 10:39 pm

    Yeah Jerkface they earn their living scouting and evaluating baseball players….This is what they do, and several have been doing in for over 30 years………Then again you entrust your baseball knowledge to the hacks who write at River Ave Blues or Bill James or where ever…..

  41. G. Love December 21st, 2010 at 10:39 pm

    That Cashman quote brings me back to 2008 when Cashman went on tour with Theo to discuss how they were going to lower payroll and beat the rest of baseball with their incredible farm systems. Cashman then named Hughes and Kennedy starters before spring training and we all remember how that turned out.

    The next off season Cashman signs everyone he can and wins a title.

    This off season after missing the post season Theo signs and gets everyone….

    Cashman has had a chip on his shoulder for years that he can’t win by being smart, only by being rich. If this is Cashman reverting to his frugal ways and being proud of it again we’re in for a lost season.

    The good news is we’ll win a title 2012 when he signs and trades for everyone after frugality yields no post season.

  42. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 10:40 pm

    Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 10:27 pm

    I can throw a rock from my window and hit guys that are better than ramiro pena and greg golson right now.
    +++++++++++++++++
    Can you repeat your delivery with consistency?

  43. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 10:40 pm

    I said months ago, “welcome to the Hal era”. Now you know why Cashman is so beloved here, he’s the consummate company guy.

    What a stupid public comment to make.

  44. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 10:40 pm

    I am still laughing at being asked to name free agent bench players who are upgrades from golson and pena. And how would they be signed? With a phone call.

    People do recognize that getting to a point where you can be a free agent is more than pena / golson will ever do in their careers right?

    There are homers and rose colored glass wearing fools, but folks who claim pena and golson are quality MLB bench players are in a category all by themselves.

  45. Doreen December 21st, 2010 at 10:40 pm

    Carlo -

    It’s cumulative.

    It’s not just you.

    I don’t disagree that they’re trying to get a grip on a payroll which, by the way, ends up footing the bill for their competitors, who are then able to keep players that normally would be available on the Free Agent market or for fair trade or for salary dump.

    The Yankees have money to spend, but nowhere to spend it because other teams now also have money and players have more choices.

    Let’s see what they can do. The team they had last year managed to sustain itself through injuries and bad years to come within 2 wins of getting to the World Series. it doesn’t need an overall. They need one pitcher, maybe two. And one of them can come from their own system in either case.

  46. J. Alfred Prufrock December 21st, 2010 at 10:41 pm

    Carlo – 2/3rds of it though are lights out defensively, esp Golson :D

  47. pat December 21st, 2010 at 10:41 pm

    “They were willing to spend on Lee, now they just want to save money. ”

    They were willing to spend on Lee because the return was worth the investment. Throwing good money after bad is stupid baseball and stupid business.

  48. GreenBeret7 December 21st, 2010 at 10:42 pm

    Oh, no!!! Whatever shall I do if you don’t respond? I think I shall just die without the benefit of your vast knowledge.

  49. RMS December 21st, 2010 at 10:42 pm

    “Atta baby. And right now we’re in the $170s,”

    I thought the Yankees were about going to and winning the World Series. Atta baby?
    Cashman better get starting pitching.
    He has-
    CC-an Ace
    Hughes-I think he will improve a lot.
    AJ-a .500 pitcher. A big ?. Hopefully the new pitching coach can help him.
    Andy-will he come back?
    Nova-how good can he be as a regular starter?
    Mitre-A Girardi favorite. He seems on the same level as Gaudin/Mosely.

  50. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 10:42 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock December 21st, 2010 at 10:31 pm

    I am still not sure why this is all so terminal.
    ++++++++++++++++++
    Exactly!

  51. Pat M. December 21st, 2010 at 10:42 pm

    Doreen, Yanks will be fine and will be playing come October…….

  52. pat December 21st, 2010 at 10:43 pm

    Luxury tax doesn’t get distributed to other teams. Revenue sharing does.

  53. Eroc December 21st, 2010 at 10:43 pm

    Carlo,

    If this is the same team that goes to ST, all the pessimism would be warranted. We can play the “what-if” game all we want, but going into the year with this bullpen/rotation is going to inspire very little confidence.

    I’m still holding out hope that Cash has a big trade in him (or at least doing something to beef up the pen like Soriano), but if this is the team going south in Febuary… yikes. Rothschild might have to transform into Dave Duncan to make this work.

  54. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 10:44 pm

    Let’s not get carried away with $18 mm in luxury tax getting split all over the league. Its not like we are dumping tens of millions in every teams lap and saying “here, now u can ink a $150 mm 7 year contract too”.

  55. blake December 21st, 2010 at 10:45 pm

    Putting Hughes and Kennedy in the rotation was only a bad idea if they weren’t going to have the patience to endure the bumps in the road….

  56. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 10:45 pm

    Carlos-

    I’d actually be interested to see what Kevin Long copuld do with a full season of Greg Golson. He was a first round pick with great tools…he has power, made good contact consistently when recalled last September, and is a plus defender with a great arm. He also is as fast as Gardner, although he needs training in base stealing.

    I wouldn’t mind him being on the bench at all.

  57. Rich in NJ December 21st, 2010 at 10:46 pm

    Pat M

    Scouting and stats are complimentary. One without the other tells an incomplete story.

  58. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 10:47 pm

    Eroc – I do not believe this is the team that goes to tampa…..but what’s scary to me is that most people here are either in denial or completely clueless because there are many who think this current group can win. That’s the frustrating part. The current team is a $170 mm joke. To spend that much and be in this position is absolutely unthinkable.

  59. CB December 21st, 2010 at 10:47 pm

    Cashman talking about Joba’s stuff playing up better out of the pen compared to the rotation is confusing the symptom for the problem.

    Joba’s role is not the primary issue. It never has been.

    His stuff was absolutely dynamite as a starter both in the minors in 2007 and as a starter in 2008. His stuff as a starter was amongst the best in baseball.

    Joba’s issue now is how he throws the ball not his role. He doesn’t repeat his mechanics with enough regularity for his stuff to be high quality consistently.

    Like AJ, Joba’s mechanics now change on a pitch to pitch basis.

    That’s his issue. What role he assumes is secondary.

    It’s true that with his inconsistent mechanics his stuff will likely be better out of the pen over short periods of time. But placing him in the pen is just hiding the problem rather than trying to fix it.

  60. J. Alfred Prufrock December 21st, 2010 at 10:47 pm

    Bojo – read this i’ll leave it before I sign off.it seems Eppler was a FO louder voice in the Joba Debate and his side unfortunately won out.the biggest idiocy was letting that kid’s service time get eaten up.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/spo....._joba.html

  61. Bronx Jeers December 21st, 2010 at 10:48 pm

    Cashman sounds like a guy that got left at the altar and then brags about how much he saved by not going on a honeymoon.

    And yeah, they shouldn’t just throw money at bad players. But Cashman/Yankee mgmt is way out of touch if they think their “clients” are going to be happy after hearing these statements.

    They might just get themselves sued! :wink:

  62. Doreen December 21st, 2010 at 10:49 pm

    pat -

    Right.

    But they’re still footing the bill with their revenue sharing, PLUS paying the luxury tax on payroll that means every player they sign – every player who demands more from them in the first place – costs that much more.

    Anyway, I’ll be shocked if this is where payroll is going to stay, at least until some of those pitching prospects make the grade.

    ****

  63. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 10:49 pm

    Yeah Jerkface they earn their living scouting and evaluating baseball players….This is what they do, and several have been doing in for over 30 years………Then again you entrust your baseball knowledge to the hacks who write at River Ave Blues or Bill James or where ever…..

    So these scouts, upon hearing that the Yankees are going to return Joba to his rightful role as amazing super starter, then go on to say its a mistake to convert joba to a starter (when its not really that, its reverting him to his original role) and these are paid scouts? Did they scout joba in the minors? What were their reports? Did they notice his dominance? His velocity holding deep into games? His incredible strike out rate? His 4 above average pitches?

    Sorry I just find it funny the way you worded it,

    ‘remember when it was announced that The Yanks were going to make Joba a starter several of the guys I know in the game said then it was going to be a mistake’

    ‘make joba a starter’ implies he was not one. He was a reliever for the end of 2007 up against an innings limit. He was never a reliever. He went into 2008 preparing as a starter, did they scout that? Did they scout Cashman and Girardis press conferences where they said he will open in the bullpen but his future is as a starter?

    Save the RAB and Bill James stuff, unless you can find anything I have ever written where I use either as an authority.

  64. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 10:49 pm

    CB December 21st, 2010 at 10:47 pm

    It’s true that with his inconsistent mechanics his stuff will likely be better out of the pen over short periods of time. But placing him in the pen is just hiding the problem rather than trying to fix it.
    ++++++++++++++
    Agreed! And by not addressing the issue, he is wasting a potentially great talent.

  65. Jerzz December 21st, 2010 at 10:50 pm

    They let Rasner and Ponson start 20+ games each in 2008 rather than try their luck with the kids. Kennedy was banished to the minors after a few bad starts in May, didn’t return until August, where he made one start, and then they sent him back down and never brought him back. Hell, they brought back Pavano and let him rehab on their watch rather than give innings to Kennedy.

    2008 was just an epic fail in so many ways.

  66. yclept December 21st, 2010 at 10:51 pm

    The Yankees charge what they do because that is what they think people will pay for the tickets. They research this down to the finest detail, you can bet on that. If people don’t pay, they’ll drop the prices.

    The Mets didn’t drop ticket prices as an admission of a “bridge” year – they dropped them because people weren’t buying the seats. If they filled Citi Field every day despite having a mediocre team, they wouldn’t cut prices – to be exact, they would probably raise prices.

    The Yankees would go over budget for Cliff Lee and nobody else this winter – it’s that simple.

    As for the bench, be patient – people worry a bit too much about this. Marcus Thames was a minor league invite last year.

    As I have always said, good bench guys don’t always want to sign here because they can see the writing on the wall with Tex/Cano/Jeter/A-Rod in the infield. They want playing time – or to be given a big premium in order to sacrifice playing time. It will work out in the end in my opinion.

  67. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 10:51 pm

    Pat – I am not encouraging throwing good money after garbage and frankly, there’s a lot of garbage out there. That said, when prices are on the rise at the stadium and ur getting circles run around u by other GM’s, let’s not sit there and f’ing gloat about payroll being down $35 mm because ur two options both vanished before your eyes and u had no other alternatives.

  68. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 10:52 pm

    JAP–I remember that. Too bad Cashman is too chicken to play devil’s advocate to his head scout. This is where I suspect he falls short compared to a more knowledgable baseball man…someone who has played the game and can judge for himself rather than just accept one scout’s opinion.

  69. Jerzz December 21st, 2010 at 10:52 pm

    I don’t know which comment was worse… Cashman’s analysis on Joba or the fact that he seemed happy that the payroll is low now and he doesn’t need to use all of it.

  70. Doreen December 21st, 2010 at 10:53 pm

    What if the Yankees don’t win next season?

    The world will go on and they’ll get to play the following season.

  71. CB December 21st, 2010 at 10:54 pm

    The Yankees probably just released this statement to point out to highlight the Red Sox spending.

    I really doubt internally they are all aglow about the situation they are in after losing Lee. These quotes are just for public consumption and to make a point that goes against general perception.

  72. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 10:54 pm

    I am still laughing at being asked to name free agent bench players who are upgrades from golson and pena. And how would they be signed? With a phone call.

    For laughing a bunch you haven’t come up with any options. Find me players who are better than Greg Golson and Ramiro Pena and who will accept a bench role for the yankees. Its very difficult for Cashman to assemble a deep bench because the only acceptable players want more playing time and no one is going to take time from A-rod and Jeter and Cano and Teixeira and our outfielders.

    Who would you sign? Or do you just expect Cashman to show up with players you hadn’t thought of?

    If they get Keppinger from the Astros that’d be an upgrade to Ramiro Pena. Pena has had 100 ABs the past 2 years, no free agent is going to sign for that. It is why Cashman builds the bench through veteran trades at the deadline and waiver acquisitions.

    Is it really worth it to pay someone 2 mil when you could have Pena for 400k ? What is the difference between your 2 mil bench player and Ramiro in 100 ABs? 4 singles? A HR?

    There is a reality you have to understand which is that the Yankees acquire all-star hall of famers at near every position. This is not the 90s yankees where they had a bunch of platoon types and workman guys, and thus could fill the bench with players that could get 300-400 ABs. Cano and Tex should play 162 games. What SS is gonna fill in for Jeter for 20 games? He will play 150+ because its impossible to make him sit.

    A-rod until recently has been a machine, who would we have backing him up?

    And the OF is now 3 young, good players who should play nearly every day. They could use a righty OFer but who is that?

  73. GreenBeret7 December 21st, 2010 at 10:55 pm

    The problem in 2008 with Hughes and Kennedy was pitching when they were injured.

  74. ZMAN December 21st, 2010 at 10:56 pm

    “And yeah, they shouldn’t just throw money at bad players. But Cashman/Yankee mgmt is way out of touch if they think their “clients” are going to be happy after hearing these statements. ”

    Yeah, I doubt the players will be happy reading that. Can’t imagine they are too happy at the offseason at all. Wouldn’t be surprised if we get an obligatory Posada off-season quote either articulating that.

  75. blake December 21st, 2010 at 10:56 pm

    The only player besides Cliff Lee that the Yankees may have been in on was Crawford and the Red Sox paid more than the Yankees likely would have anyway…there was no great strategy there….the Sox over paid to keep Crawfird away from the Yankees.

  76. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 10:56 pm

    And gee, Scouts, they are always right. Because no player or prospect ever busts.

    I have said it before, if I ran a baseball team I’d use stats and scouts in equal measures because its the best approach, but scouts should not be treated as gospel. They’re just another piece of information.

  77. GreenBeret7 December 21st, 2010 at 10:57 pm

    NJ.com from Carig

    http://www.nj.com/yankees/inde.....ng_fo.html

  78. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 10:57 pm

    Is the common consensus here that Eiland was basically out to lunch during his time here last year? I ask because Joba shts the bed in 2009, aj falls apart last year, javy is an abomination, etc.

    Do people thin Eiland was a bad pitching coach and Larry will change things? The one thing Larry has going for him is easy comps with last year and a staff that shouldn’t be expected to do much.

  79. Eroc December 21st, 2010 at 11:00 pm

    Cashman said that both the free agent and trade market don’t offer any apparent solutions, with several potential fits coming off the board as the Yankees held out for Lee.

    “Bottom line is there is a price to pay for waiting for Cliff Lee,” Cashman said. “Now, part of that price is definitely going to be loss of previous opportunities that (existed). At the same time, now it’s going to have to be some patience. Now, it’s going to be a steeper mountain to climb, which is fine, because we can climb it. Steeper meaning it’s going to take a longer way to get there. It’s a harder road to travel. That’s OK. You can still get there.”

    Meanwhile, Cashman said he may enter the spring in hopes that the Yankees’ pitching prospects prove that they’re ready to fill spots in the rotation, though it’s not his first choice.

    “The preference would always be to not to rely on that to happen,” he said. “But we might have to. We’ll see.”

    http://www.nj.com/yankees/inde.....ng_fo.html

  80. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 11:02 pm

    Bench players–

    I’ll assume there are only 4 spots as Jorge gets DH role and Yanks caryy 12 pitchers.

    1. I’m happy with Cervelli as back-up catcher until Monteo comes up in mid-season (or earlier). No need to upgrade here.

    2. I would like Keppinger as a trade acquisition as he can hit better so he might be used more to rest ARod, Cano, and Tex.

    3. I would like Nunez or Pena on bench because of SS defense and PR speed. Nunez may have a better bat too.

    4. I would want a RH bat with superior defense and speed. Needs to hit LHP at 320 OBP clip or better. Power would be nice but secondary. Needs to accept role. Would be great if he had some upside. Golson fits that role. Thames doesn’t (and they don’t need him for DH with Jorge, ARod, and Monero available during the season).

    I can’t think of another veteran that we’d have to trade for that would represent a big upside to Golson, and who would accept bench role.

  81. RMS December 21st, 2010 at 11:05 pm

    “.the Sox over paid to keep Crawfird away from the Yankees.”

    Maybe the RS overpaid Crawford because they needed a left fielder and they needed to replace the production lost when Martinez and Beltre left.
    Yankees didn’t need Crawford.

  82. pat December 21st, 2010 at 11:05 pm

    Carlo

    As always, I don’t care how little or how much they spend. Payrolls don’t win, players do.

    Don’t like how they are spending their money? Put your money where your mouth is and don’t buy tickets, don’t watch the games on YES or listen on CBS.

  83. West Coast Yankee Fan December 21st, 2010 at 11:06 pm

    Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 10:49 pm

    “Save the RAB and Bill James stuff, unless you can find anything I have ever written where I use either as an authority”.

    *********************

    Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 3:50 pm

    .300 .350 .453 <– bill james super optimistic projection for Crawford.

    OOOOOOOPS!!!

  84. CB December 21st, 2010 at 11:06 pm

    The Yankees are likely going to have a marginal bench when the break camp for the start of the season and will augment that bench significantly by the trade deadline just as they do nearly every season.

    Decent players do not want to sit on the Yankee’s bench starting in April. That has a very negative impact on their earning potential.

    This is the same pattern every year. But every year Yankee fans get upset about the bench.

  85. Rich in NJ December 21st, 2010 at 11:06 pm

    With regard to the Carig article GB linked, You have to wonder if the Yankees had more interest in Werth or Crawford that some of us may have thought.

  86. Against All Odds December 21st, 2010 at 11:07 pm

    Pat M. December 21st, 2010 at 10:29 pm

    It was believed that Joba could be one of the great closers in the game’s history

    —————————

    All of this based on 24 innings in 2007???? That is when the problems started. Ppl fell in love with what they saw and did not realize how he was used. He was never going to be used that why again so why would anyone think he would become one of the greatest closers of all time. Feliz had a season for the ages and I haven’t heard anyone say he could be one of the greatest relievers ever.

  87. GreenBeret7 December 21st, 2010 at 11:08 pm

    Getting a bat like Thome isn’t likely because he’ll be looking for about 300 plus at bats and that’s not likely in NY. Maybe in Baltimore, Minnesota or Anaheim, but not in NY.

  88. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 11:09 pm

    I think Nunez should be on the bench, unless they trade for Keppinger. He can outhit Jerry Hairston Jr. Don’t know who else is out there that could backup third and short.

    Between Martin, Cervelli, Montro, and Posada they should be able to get 162 games of above average offense at catcher.

    What right handed bat could they get for the bench? Andruw Jones? He had a good first 15 games and was just abysmal after that. He looks real cooked.

    They should grab an ace bat for the bench like Vlad or Thome. Thome is more likely to sign for cheap and not a lot of playing time. Though as Vlad goes unsigned maybe he would come on a sweet deal.

    Golson might have to be the guy.

  89. Pat M. December 21st, 2010 at 11:10 pm

    Well Jerkface, going into 2011 it seems to me those old timers were right….Had he not been reverted back to being a starter we wouldn’t be looking for a 8th inning reliever and a replacement for Mariano…..But you’ll dig up up anything you can to prove yourself right……Chamberlain’s effectiveness does not translate over 100 innings…….Rich in NJ……I’m not disputing stats, however when one looks at a ballplayer with a trained eye, he’s going by what he sees as far as talent and possibilities……..

  90. blake December 21st, 2010 at 11:10 pm

    Arod being “past any hip issues” may be the best news of the off-season so far.

  91. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 11:10 pm

    .300 .350 .453 <– bill james super optimistic projection for Crawford.

    OOOOOOOPS!!!

    ??? I quoted the projection from Fangraphs, did I say it was an authority? In the posts before that I asked for cliffjumpers prediction. He never gave one.

    Next.

  92. Rich in NJ December 21st, 2010 at 11:10 pm

    I really don’t want Jerry Hairston back.

  93. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 11:11 pm

    Simple list of free agents who are obvious upgrades from pena and golson who would not expect significant playing time to sign with the yankees:

    Bloomquist
    Aybar
    Lugo
    grudzelanik
    Cantu

    Outfielders:
    Hermida
    The list of guys here is so long and this discussion is so beneath me I won’t waste my time.

    Oh, and now when u try to pick fault with each of these guys based on their numbers, pls list their numbers versus those of pena/golson….so we compare apples to apples of course.

  94. Betsy December 21st, 2010 at 11:13 pm

    If I recall correctly, Joba went back to Nebraska for the ASB and pitched great for those 3 starts immediately following. Thereafter, it was rough going. I am not saying he was great by any means – he was beyond frustrating – but young by virtue of being young are going to be frustrating. Overall, I think it’s sad that we all had such visions as Pat said of Phil and Joba heading the rotation. Now we’ll see if Phil can be that type of guy, but we know Joba won’t be – not with the Yankees.

  95. GreenBeret7 December 21st, 2010 at 11:14 pm

    “The list of guys here is so long and this discussion is so beneath me I won’t waste my time.”

    LMAO. What a pompus ass you are.

  96. Carl December 21st, 2010 at 11:14 pm

    I like Jerry.

    Bring back Jerry!

  97. blake December 21st, 2010 at 11:15 pm

    The Yankees can add to the bench throughout the year as they always do. If Damon would accept a complimentary role for a couple million then maybe they could pick him up for old times sake….and to make Erica happy.

  98. Betsy December 21st, 2010 at 11:15 pm

    I admit that’s a dumb quote from Cashman – big deal, his velocity dropped. Phil’s velocity dropped from the pen to a starter; why didn’t Cash make a stink about that? Is that all Cash cares about, velocity? If so, then he should be worried about Phil, who doesn’t throw 95 MPH.

  99. Yank 97 December 21st, 2010 at 11:17 pm

    “With regard to the Carig article GB linked, You have to wonder if the Yankees had more interest in Werth or Crawford that some of us may have thought.”

    True. That wasn’t the first quote were Cashman alluded to the fact that everything was at a standstill until Lee made a decision and how he might have lost out on other pieces in the process.

    Perhaps Cash had some pitching contingency trades lined up with Gardner or Swish, but needed to sign an OF to execute those plans. Obviously, he can’t do that now.

  100. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 11:17 pm

    Bloomquist is awful. Aybar can’t play short. Lugo was worse than pena last year. Grudzelanik can’t play short and is 100 years old and not good anymore. He literally had 0 XBH last year. Cantu cannot play short.

    Outfielders

    I think Greg Golson can out hit .216 .268 .351 .619 Hermida.

    You’ve offered nothing of substance, thank you for your time.

  101. Betsy December 21st, 2010 at 11:18 pm

    LOL Cash. He’s doing a great job of managing the payroll – too bad the team has gotten worse. I never believed this of him, but I’m starting to believe his detractors who think that Cash wants to win with a lower payroll just to prove he can.

  102. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 11:18 pm

    GB7 – I thought I heard it all when people said pena/golson couldn’t be upgraded upon……but then I saw u call someone else pompous. This has been an incredible night. Hahahahahahahahaha.

  103. Against All Odds December 21st, 2010 at 11:19 pm

    # Jerzz December 21st, 2010 at 10:50 pm

    They let Rasner and Ponson start 20+ games each in 2008 rather than try their luck with the kids. Kennedy was banished to the minors after a few bad starts in May, didn’t return until August, where he made one start, and then they sent him back down and never brought him back. Hell, they brought back Pavano and let him rehab on their watch rather than give innings to Kennedy.

    2008 was just an epic fail in so many ways.
    ——————————————————

    And ppl just want the fans to blindly have faith in the FO when have messed up so many times. I’m tired of hearing same old cliche “They know what they’re doing” I’m a big supporter of Cashman but over the past several weeks that has decreased every time he opens his mouth.

  104. Betsy December 21st, 2010 at 11:20 pm

    Phil was hurt in 2008, so really the only one who should be called a disaster was IPK………Phil probably would have been decent had he been healthy, so that was bad luck for all involved.

  105. AZ88 December 21st, 2010 at 11:21 pm

    Hard to believe we went from having a super-rotation to this.

    Now it is a moral victory that the payroll is low?

  106. AZ88 December 21st, 2010 at 11:22 pm

    *potential super rotation

  107. Betsy December 21st, 2010 at 11:22 pm

    Carlo, I had no problem with Eiland.

  108. Carl December 21st, 2010 at 11:22 pm

    # Betsy December 21st, 2010 at 11:15 pm

    I admit that’s a dumb quote from Cashman – big deal, his velocity dropped. Phil’s velocity dropped from the pen to a starter; why didn’t Cash make a stink about that? Is that all Cash cares about, velocity? If so, then he should be worried about Phil, who doesn’t throw 95 MPH.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/pitch.....8;pitch=FA

    Joba’s velocity. Look at 2009. It was horrible.

  109. Doreen December 21st, 2010 at 11:22 pm

    You mistake having a realization that nothing I say or think has any effect on what the Yankees do or don’t do for having blind faith. You mistake having a realization that perhaps things are done for reasons I’m not privy to is having blind faith. You mistake acceptance for agreement.

  110. GreenBeret7 December 21st, 2010 at 11:23 pm

    you list a bunch of people and only one on there could be called a shortstop and nobody wants him, including Baltimore. In what world is Hermida an upgrade over anybody?

    I might be an ass, never denied that…but, not pompus.

  111. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 11:23 pm

    Golson and Pena…..the best bench $175 mm in annual payroll can buy. It is written. Comical. How does one take themselves seriously with this nonsense?

    Somebody paste the entire free agent list of infielders and outfielders for jerkface so that he can see that pena and golson would be amongst the worst players on a list of a lot of $1mm per year signings.

  112. Against All Odds December 21st, 2010 at 11:23 pm

    Pat M. December 21st, 2010 at 11:10 pm

    Well Jerkface, going into 2011 it seems to me those old timers were right….Had he not been reverted back to being a starter we wouldn’t be looking for a 8th inning reliever and a replacement for Mariano…..

    ————————————–

    Ppl are so hung up on finding Mo’s replacement. Does anyone think the Yankees won’t go after the best guy when the position becomes available.

  113. blake December 21st, 2010 at 11:23 pm

    If the Yankees do have a limits to their spending…and it seems 220 million or so is when they start to back off, there are advantages to keeping a cushion under that number to provide flexibility in case something does come along.

  114. CB December 21st, 2010 at 11:25 pm

    It’s really remarkable that so many yankee fans are in such a foul mood and it’s not even January.

    It sounds as if it’s August and the Yankees are 20 games out.

  115. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 11:26 pm

    Carlos–

    I have to agree with Jerkface’s assessment above for the infielders. Aside from trading for Keppinger, I don’t see anyone who can help greatly…maybe Hairston wouldn’t be so bad, but I’m not jumping for joy on the thought.

    For outfield, they don’t need a LH bat like Hermida. They need a RH bat.

    Manny, Vlad, and Damon can’t give them the defense they need in OF, nor will they get enough ABs if Posada is the full-time DH.

    I think you are over-stating the real requirements for the 2011 bench, and not providing any real options that are serious upgrades.

    I’ll give you one example of a RH bat OFer who might be attractive in a mid-season trade…Cody Ross. Let’s hear some more from you.

  116. blake December 21st, 2010 at 11:26 pm

    I think IPK could have settled in and been a nice back end guy for Yanks had they stuck with him……Fans of other teams are constantly going through these growing pains with young pitchers, that’s how they get to be older good pitchers.

  117. Jerzz December 21st, 2010 at 11:27 pm

    Carl,

    But that rotation problem started at the end of 2008. His velocity start from 08 in September, you can see it is down significantly from what it was prior to the DL stint. And that was as a reliever too, not a starter.

    As CB said, the velocity explanation isin’t that valid because it isin’t the role, it is the cause. The mechanics are more of an issue than the velocity. Look at him in the pen – his velocity might have been improved but the results were subpar.

  118. Doreen December 21st, 2010 at 11:28 pm

    CB -

    It really is.

  119. Jerzz December 21st, 2010 at 11:28 pm

    *velocity problem

  120. Rich in NJ December 21st, 2010 at 11:29 pm

    “Ppl are so hung up on finding Mo’s replacement. Does anyone think the Yankees won’t go after the best guy when the position becomes available.”

    As with any position of need, it doesn’t necessarily follow that optimal alternatives will be available if/when that day arises.

    That’s all the more reason to have a stocked farm system so that there is the ability to replace Mo from within. Afterall, that’s where he came from.

  121. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 11:29 pm

    Alfredo Amezaga LAD — awful
    Rick Ankiel ATL * — signed
    Rocco Baldelli TB — awful
    Pat Burrell SF — signed
    Frank Catalanotto FA — awful
    Carl Crawford TB — signed
    Johnny Damon DET — available, not a real option, won’t play the bench for 1 mil
    Jim Edmonds CIN — old and awful
    Jody Gerut SD — awful
    Jay Gibbons LAD — awful
    Vladimir Guerrero TEX * — not a real OF
    Jose Guillen SF — awful, not a real OF
    Bill Hall BOS — signed
    Willie Harris WAS — awful
    Brad Hawpe TB — awful, not a real OF anymore
    Eric Hinske ATL — signed
    Andruw Jones CWS — done
    Gabe Kapler TB — terrible
    Austin Kearns NYY
    Hideki Matsui LAA
    Kevin Mench WAS
    Xavier Nady CHC
    Corey Patterson BAL
    Jay Payton COL
    Scott Podsednik LAD
    Manny Ramirez CWS
    Matt Stairs SD
    Fernando Tatis NYM
    Marcus Thames NYY
    Jayson Werth PHI
    Randy Winn STL

    I could only get halfway down before my soul was crushed. This is a terrible list, none of these men are an upgrade on the bench.

  122. Betsy December 21st, 2010 at 11:30 pm

    Blake, maybe – but I never thought that highly of him. I don’t think they gave up on IPK as much as they really wanted Granderson.

  123. Rich in NJ December 21st, 2010 at 11:30 pm

    “Joba’s velocity. Look at 2009. It was horrible.”

    That was his first year back coming off the shoulder injury.

  124. Pat M. December 21st, 2010 at 11:31 pm

    CB….Maybe this is Cashman’s device to dispell any notion that he’s desperate or over anxious…..Remeember Ian Kennedy was himself injured in 2008 and eventually had a serious medical issue…….He’ll be a 14-15 game winner when you look back at his career…….

  125. GreenBeret7 December 21st, 2010 at 11:31 pm

    The only middle infielders that will play spare time with the Yankees are the dregs of baseball society and the Yankee farm kids unless it’s a mid-season trade. They want to play more than 20 games a year. They also don’t need an outfield bat with no glove.

  126. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 11:31 pm

    We don’t need a shortstop…..nunez is the backup shortstop. Pena is completely useless. A total waste of a roster space.

    As for the outfield, i would go with a legitimate power bat and let him share dh duties with posada and let him play some outfield. Frankly, I would sign vlad…..he will get his at bats.

  127. blake December 21st, 2010 at 11:32 pm

    Joba’s velocity is better out of the pen but its still wildly inconsistent because his delivery is. When he keeps his shoulder closed and is on time with everything he still has the pop and great slider…..that just doesn’t happen on every pitch, and some outings it isn’t there at all. If Rothschild could help Joba and AJ then that would be a huge boost for the Yanks in 2011.

  128. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 11:32 pm

    I will say one positive thing about Scott Podsednik–his wife is smoking hot!

  129. Against All Odds December 21st, 2010 at 11:34 pm

    # Doreen December 21st, 2010 at 11:22 pm

    You mistake having a realization that nothing I say or think has any effect on what the Yankees do or don’t do for having blind faith. You mistake having a realization that perhaps things are done for reasons I’m not privy to is having blind faith. You mistake acceptance for agreement.
    ————————————————–

    The fact of the matter is Cashman has done a poor job this off season and he has every right to be called on the carpet about it. Everyone wants to see what he could be w/o getting the big fish well right now he hasn’t done much.

  130. blake December 21st, 2010 at 11:34 pm

    “I don’t think they gave up on IPK as much as they really wanted Granderson.”

    yea I think so too….I always liked Kennedy though….

  131. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 11:34 pm

    Carlo–Did you even watch Vlad in the WS? He can’t play OF the way Jorge can’t catch…both are shadows of what they were defensively.

  132. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 11:35 pm

    Jerkface – every player u listed is better than Golson. Let’s get our hands around this one concept: Greg Golson is not a good baseball player and his career highlight was throwing out a guy who was making a huge baserunning blunder.

  133. Carl December 21st, 2010 at 11:35 pm

    2010 his velocity was inconsistent.

    Mechanics could be it. Weight could be it.

    Can’t wait to see what Rothschild does with him.

  134. CB December 21st, 2010 at 11:36 pm

    “Maybe this is Cashman’s device to dispell any notion that he’s desperate or over anxious…..”

    Pat M.,

    I think it’s pretty clear that they are in damage control mode after missing out on Lee. This entire winter so much of the discussion on the yankees was about how “desperate” the yankees were for Lee and the problems they would have if they missed out on him.

    They went with a high risk play because it gave them a shot to put a great team out on the field. That risk didn’t pan out and now Yankee fans are very sour about it. Just about everyone loved the big game hunting approach the yankees have taken over the past three winters until the time that risk didn’t pan out.

    Most of these quotes are just for public consumption to try to do what’s possible to decrease the impression that the team is desperate. How much impact that will have – who knows?

    But too much is being parsed out of every word coming out of the organization right now.

  135. GreenBeret7 December 21st, 2010 at 11:36 pm

    What would be Guerrero’s reason for signing with NYYs? To play part time as a DH? He can play full time in Texas, Anaheim, seattle, Baltimore, KC or Tampa.

  136. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 11:37 pm

    every player u listed is better than Golson

    Lmao, maybe the free agents who are already signed to deals. But every player I listed as awful truly was awful. You probably didnt look up their stats because you’re admittedly lazy, but half of them hit under .200

  137. Against All Odds December 21st, 2010 at 11:38 pm

    # Rich in NJ December 21st, 2010 at 11:29 pm

    “Ppl are so hung up on finding Mo’s replacement. Does anyone think the Yankees won’t go after the best guy when the position becomes available.”

    As with any position of need, it doesn’t necessarily follow that optimal alternatives will be available if/when that day arises.

    That’s all the more reason to have a stocked farm system so that there is the ability to replace Mo from within. Afterall, that’s where he came from.
    ——————————————-’
    That’s where he came from but that doesn’t mean his replacement has to come from there too. Bernie Williams was replaced with Damon, Tino replaced Donny, etc.

  138. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 11:38 pm

    Vlads bat can make up for his defensive shortcomings. His bat plays. He gives us a nice DH option and he can play the outfield. I watched the world series…..noticed that the WS champs had a gold glover by the name of pat the leather burrel in left field as well.

  139. Yank 97 December 21st, 2010 at 11:39 pm

    “It’s really remarkable that so many yankee fans are in such a foul mood and it’s not even January.”

    To be fair, there has hardly been much to be excited about thus far and Cash himself, in his quotes, has tempered enthusiasm and been honest about the landscape of the market and what the staff might look like. Reading Cash’s quotes, he’s not trying to fool anyone – he’s been candid about the state of the team – he doesn’t want to go with the “2 kids” in the rotation, but might have to, and he also might need to wait till July to fix it.

    I think some are just being realistic based on the team on paper. Doesn’t mean much because the games have to be played, but that’s all we can go on now. Just like we were all in euphoria the last two off-seasons.

  140. CB December 21st, 2010 at 11:39 pm

    “Joba’s velocity is better out of the pen but its still wildly inconsistent because his delivery is. When he keeps his shoulder closed and is on time with everything he still has the pop and great slider…..that just doesn’t happen on every pitch, and some outings it isn’t there at all. If Rothschild could help Joba and AJ then that would be a huge boost for the Yanks in 2011.”

    Great summary.

    And this problem is compounded when he’s a starter. If his mechanics are poor as a reliever you can just pull him from the game and put in another guy.

    That’s much more difficult to do when he’s a starter and it’s the second inning. Which is what was happening in 2009. It’s a huge problem pulling starters early.

    The immediate goal for Joba is to get him throwing the ball better.

  141. Pat M. December 21st, 2010 at 11:40 pm

    Years ago the bench was a vehicle to break in some of the clubs young players with a defined role….And there was always a veteran hitter who was called upon late in the game to drive in a key run or start a late rally…..I don’t think that really has altered that much since then actually…..Now I’ll be expecting some rebuttals……However every quality club has always had a vet stick sitting in the dugout with a bat in his hands…….Hector Lopez comes to mind as I wasn’t arounf for Old Reliable Tommy Henrich….GB was of course

  142. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 11:40 pm

    Burrell can still field. Vlad has the knees of a 90 year old grandmother. Maybe if no team expresses any interest in him as a starting DH, in which he would be in the top 5 at the position, then he might sign on the yankees for 1 mil.

    He isn’t taking a non-starting role for the Yankees.

  143. Doreen December 21st, 2010 at 11:40 pm

    I don’t see it that way.

    Perhaps it’s just the way I look at things.

    Vlad??????

    He’d be worse in the OF than Thames, and that’s saying something.

  144. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 11:41 pm

    Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 11:35 pm

    Jerkface – every player u listed is better than Golson. Let’s get our hands around this one concept: Greg Golson is not a good baseball player and his career highlight was throwing out a guy who was making a huge baserunning blunder.
    ++++++++++++
    Well, you’ve convinced me..that you don’t really know what you are talking about. No offense…but your suggestions miss a key point.

    You are missing a very key advantage the Yankees have assembled–an outstanding defensive team. Martin is a former GGer, Tex Cano, Jeter, Gardner, Granderson–all excellent defenders (Jeter still can play by better positioning himself and anticipating where the ball will be hit).

    Having Golson–a superior OFer–over any of the options you present, makes a ton of sense because he upgrades the defense late in games when subbing for Swisher…or he can play any of the spots and maintain the level of quality defense.

    You significantly understate the value of a strong defense when considering the bench.

  145. Rich in NJ December 21st, 2010 at 11:41 pm

    “That’s where he came from but that doesn’t mean his replacement has to come from there too. Bernie Williams was replaced with Damon, Tino replaced Donny, etc.”

    Damon became a Yankee for the 2006 season. Bernie was done as a CF by 2004.

    You can’t wait that long with a closer.

  146. David December 21st, 2010 at 11:41 pm

    I think Golson may be a better outfielder than Everyone on that list

  147. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 11:42 pm

    Guererros reason to sign – a few extra bucks than he would get elsewhere.

    And no, jerkface, I didn’t look up all their stats because I am on my bberry and its too difficult. It doesn’t take a book of stats though to know what golson is. By the way, since ur the walking bill james bible, how about laying out golsons numbers for us all so we can see the hurdles we need to climb to improve upon him.

    Or wait, is golson an intangibles guy?

  148. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 11:43 pm

    Where does this Bill James thing come from???? Have you all been sleeping over at Randy’s house and listening to his tall tales? Maybe he will tell you about the time Clete Boyer pantsed Bill James.

    Golson hit .261 .261 .348 .609 in 23 at bats.

  149. GreenBeret7 December 21st, 2010 at 11:44 pm

    Pat, Hector and Johnny Blanchard. The big difference in a Manny Mota or a Smokey Burgess or Jerry Lynch is that in the AL, there’s no weak hitting shortstops batting 8th or pitcher’s to pinch hit for.

  150. Against All Odds December 21st, 2010 at 11:44 pm

    *Donnie*

  151. CB December 21st, 2010 at 11:44 pm

    Vlad is not going to sign with the Yankees because it’s going to hurt his earning potential for the 2012 season.

    He’s just not going to get enough at bats guaranteed to him.

    At his age and with his knees, Vlad is going to be hard pressed to accept a part time job now with uncertain at bats. If the does there’s a very good chance that’s the role he’s going to be relegated to for the rest of his career.

    He had a good season with the bat last year. He doesn’t need to accept a bit role on a good team. He can do that later when he is forced to.

    Vlad also should be a lock for the Hall of Fame, but I’d also guess he’s interested in making sure he gets in by accumulating as many HR, hits and RBI’s as he can now before wrapping up his career.

  152. Against All Odds December 21st, 2010 at 11:46 pm

    # Rich in NJ December 21st, 2010 at 11:41 pm

    “That’s where he came from but that doesn’t mean his replacement has to come from there too. Bernie Williams was replaced with Damon, Tino replaced Donny, etc.”

    Damon became a Yankee for the 2006 season. Bernie was done as a CF by 2004.

    You can’t wait that long with a closer.
    ——————————————-

    Who says that have t wait long. They might bring in a stop gap a yr or two until they find the right guy. Besides Joba was never going to be Rivera anyway.

  153. blake December 21st, 2010 at 11:46 pm

    Vlad really can’t play the outfield anymore. I’d love him on the Yankees for a 1 year deal but I’m not sure how they would find enough AB’s for everyone. I heard the other day that he and Texas were getting closer anyway.

  154. GreenBeret7 December 21st, 2010 at 11:47 pm

    Pat M., I just saw that crack about me watching Tommy Henrich. That hurt. LMAO

  155. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 11:47 pm

    Bojo – u serious? Ur worried about the quality of our defense now? Pitching, the single most important part of defense, is an absolute mess and u are saying golson makes sense because he can sub in for swisher in the 8th inning of games? Seriously? That’s a roster spot now? A team with 2.5 legitimate starters and aging veterans at DH, SS, and 3B and a questionable offensive catcher is worries about using a roster spot on a late inning defensive replacement?

  156. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 11:48 pm

    Austin Kearns NYY — signed
    Hideki Matsui LAA — signed
    Kevin Mench WAS — awful
    Xavier Nady CHC — signed
    Corey Patterson BAL — awful
    Jay Payton COL — maybe an option, but 38 only played 20 games in last 2 years
    Scott Podsednik LAD — not an option, will start
    Manny Ramirez CWS — not an option
    Matt Stairs SD – not an option
    Fernando Tatis NYM – awful
    Marcus Thames NYY – not an OFer
    Jayson Werth PHI – signed
    Randy Winn STL – awful

    There is the second half, just for good measure.

    So far the best choice is 38 year old Jay payton

  157. Rich in NJ December 21st, 2010 at 11:48 pm

    “Who says that have t wait long. They might bring in a stop gap a yr or two until they find the right guy. Besides Joba was never going to be Rivera anyway.”

    No one is ever going to be Rivera, at least in most of our lifetimes.

    The pressure on the closer who “replaces” Rivera will be immense.

    A stopgap guy probably won’t be able to handle it.

    If a top closer can be had a by a trade, fine. It’s not a certainty though.

    Again, the best solution is to stockpile great young arms in the hope that one or two may emerge as potential solutions.

  158. Hopdevil December 21st, 2010 at 11:49 pm

    Rich in NJ December 21st, 2010 at 11:41 pm
    “That’s where he came from but that doesn’t mean his replacement has to come from there too. Bernie Williams was replaced with Damon, Tino replaced Donny, etc.”

    Damon became a Yankee for the 2006 season. Bernie was done as a CF by 2004.

    You can’t wait that long with a closer.

    ——————————————————

    Ugh. Don’t even want to start thinking about no more Mo. I guess in the back of my mind I hope he’s a modern Gordie Howe, playing into his 50s. :-)

  159. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 11:51 pm

    Maybe I should go back and watch those 23 at bats. Maybe I missed what the rest of the major league also misses with respect to golson……the fact that he is totally awesome in 2011 yankee fantasyland.

  160. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 11:51 pm

    Pitching, the single most important part of defense, is an absolute mess and u are saying golson makes sense because he can sub in for swisher in the 8th inning of games? Seriously? That’s a roster spot now

    Good defense helps bad pitching, bad defense hurts good pitching. And the 4th OFer is not getting any playing time to begin with. The Yankees OF is good and young. The Yankees aren’t going to sub in a guy who is worse in the field than everyone else and who isn’t a better hitter than Nick Swisher.

  161. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 11:52 pm

    Maybe I should go back and watch those 23 at bats. Maybe I missed what the rest of the major league also misses with respect to golson……the fact that he is totally awesome in 2011 yankee fantasyland.

    While you are there, watch all the ABs of the players you’ve advocated be on the yankees, because they are all garbage. tia

  162. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 11:53 pm

    Carlo–

    Yeah, I’m serious. Defense helps pitching by giving up no outs. That is where Seattle improved tremendously in 2009 as you may recall.

    And the only 2 or 3 players I would consider over Golson would be the Hairston boys or Cody Ross.

    Also, look at Golson’s minor league stats…He can steal between 20-30 bases if palying full time (he had 80/80 on scouitng report for speed)…has enough power to hit 10-15 homers…at 25 he still has upside (I would love to see Long coach him and eliminate his hitch)…

    So yeah, Golson is looking fine to me at this point. When July 31 comes around, we can always trade for a bat after seeing what shakes out…

    Oh–one other player I’d be interested in if he continues to recover…Rocco Baldelli.

  163. Yankee Trader December 21st, 2010 at 11:55 pm

    Can’t say I’m a fan of Lastings Milledge, but looking at his splits, he might help as a 4th OF’er. Believe he is now a FA released by the Pirates.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/indiv.....statType=1

  164. PittsburghYankeeFan December 21st, 2010 at 11:56 pm

    They’ll take a good hard look at Johnny Damon for under $4-5 million. Same with Vlad. Damon would be the part time OF/part time DH. Vlad would part-time DH. I bet Vlad won’t bite but Johnny will, with the RF porch in YS 81 games per year.

    Pitching minor depth can be/will be used to trade for minor league position depth (now that they have catchers and pitchers in abundance).

    Payroll AAV less than the Sox this year, with $40 million to spend in needed. They’re in good shape.

  165. Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 11:57 pm

    I advocated most of the major leagues ahead of golson. I surely don’t have that kind of time. I’ll just watch golson again and see what I was missing. Clearly there is no room for a 4th outfieler……granderson made that adjustment for 40 games so he is money versus lefties now, swisher doesn’t have any knee problem that bothered him off and on all 2nd half, and gardner didn’t have wrist surgery this offseason.

    So ur right, if the guy can’t outhit swisher, then there is only one good man for the job. Greg golson. And should any of our starters go down or should granderson prove inept again versus lefties, we’ve got the ultimate insurance package. Greg golson. Greg golson is the father of every kid in this town.

  166. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 11:57 pm

    Yankee Trader December 21st, 2010 at 11:55 pm

    Can’t say I’m a fan of Lastings Milledge, but looking at his splits, he might help as a 4th OF’er. Believe he is now a FA released by the Pirates.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/indiv…..statType=1
    +++++++++++
    another good one to consider…

  167. Jerkface December 21st, 2010 at 11:57 pm

    Can’t say I’m a fan of Lastings Milledge, but looking at his splits, he might help as a 4th OF’er. Believe he is now a FA released by the Pirates.

    Forgot all about young Lastings. He should be a priority. Though he might be able to line up a starting gig elsewhere. 4th OF on the yankees, right handed, mashes lefties. Would be a solid pickup.

  168. BoJo December 21st, 2010 at 11:59 pm

    Carlo December 21st, 2010 at 11:57 pm

    . Greg golson is the father of every kid in this town.
    ++++++++++++
    That town is going to have a heck of a track team!

  169. CB December 21st, 2010 at 11:59 pm

    The Yankees luxury tax bill being the lowest it’s been since 2003 is one of the lead stories on both Sport’s Illustrated home page and the ESPN baseball page.

    That’s all they wanted to get out of these statements. It’s just spin to get a particular message out in the media. It’s not some grand organizational goal. They know internally that they threw a ton of money at Lee and he didn’t take it.

  170. Yankee Trader December 22nd, 2010 at 12:00 am

    PittsburghYF-

    Would Lastings Milledge be a decent option as 4th OF’er. Hit lefties at a .320 clip with .414 OBP and all of his 4 homers in 125 AB’s against lefties?

  171. Carlo December 22nd, 2010 at 12:01 am

    Wait – now we found guys who could be more valuable than Golson?

    Bojo – I don’t care about his stolen bases. We aren’t even going to discuss his offense because he is putrid. If ur claim is we need him for late inning defense, stick to that. Don’t bring up anything he can do offensively because if he is “playing regularly” then this team is completely tapioca.

  172. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2010 at 12:02 am

    Yankee Trader December 21st, 2010 at 11:55 pm
    Can’t say I’m a fan of Lastings Milledge, but looking at his splits, he might help as a 4th OF’er. Believe he is now a FA released by the Pirates.

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    he certainly didn’t help himself in shaking the immature jerk tag last week in Winter ball when he started a on field riot by pretending to toss a grenade into the visiting dugout after hitting a double. No thanks.

  173. Pat M. December 22nd, 2010 at 12:04 am

    Rich n NJ….They had one, Joba Chamberlain….He was a close to being Rivera ( 1995 ) as they’ll ever get…..He could have been slipped right into that role with great ease…In fact Mariano will need a breather often this season to ward off the time factor that has come to be the past few seasons….He’s still the best in the game, however Wood was a safety net for the club……It’s been said for many decades that you pitch with your legs, hips and torso, the arm just simply directs the ball……..When Joba pitched out of the pen in 07 and 08 he was so free and easy, had great tempo and rhythm…..Once he had to start thinking out there on the mound is when things started to go south for him….Yes he was stil doing it when he went into the rotation in the latter part of 08 but when 09 rolled around he was a different guy out there, both physically and mentally……Spend an hour watching him on tape from those years and I think you’ll see what I’m referring to……He’s not by nature a finess pitcher, and coming out of the pen that was the furthest thing in his mind…..Now he can’t get that out of his head……

  174. Rich in NJ December 22nd, 2010 at 12:06 am

    Milledge would have to shape up or be ostracized with the likes of Jeter, A-Rod, Posada, etc. around. If his brain is working at all, he could be a risk worth taking.

    But I agree that he can probably find more PT elsewhere.

  175. Carlo December 22nd, 2010 at 12:06 am

    GB – you made me laugh with that post. The onfield riot spurred on by the grenade. What a clown….we can’t bring on thie joker regardless of how he handles lefties. Thames has more power, isn’t a complete meathammer like milledge, and is liked in the clubhouse already. Granted milledge plays better defense but he too has made some hideous mistakes in the outfield.

  176. Jerkface December 22nd, 2010 at 12:06 am

    When Joba pitched out of the pen in 07 and 08 he was so free and easy, had great tempo and rhythm…..Once he had to start thinking out there on the mound is when things started to go south for him….Yes he was stil doing it when he went into the rotation in the latter part of 08

    Exactly and he pitched more innings in the rotation in 08 than out of the pen in 07 and 08 combined. He did it just fine.

    Then he got hurt. Then his velocity has never been the same. So either the injury caused him some physical ailment that reduced his velocity, or the injury hurt his ability to repeat his mechanics.

    Its not some mystical ‘joba came out of the pen thing’

    Hughes was better than Joba in a larger sample out of the pen in 09 and no one is saying he should be Mo’s successor.

  177. Yankee Trader December 22nd, 2010 at 12:08 am

    he certainly didn’t help himself in shaking the immature jerk tag last week in Winter ball when he started a on field riot by pretending to toss a grenade into the visiting dugout after hitting a double. No thanks
    —————————————————————–
    Nyger Morgan and Millidge would make fine teammates. Oh wait, they were teammates!!!

  178. BoJo December 22nd, 2010 at 12:09 am

    Carlo December 22nd, 2010 at 12:01 am

    Wait – now we found guys who could be more valuable than Golson?

    Bojo – I don’t care about his stolen bases. We aren’t even going to discuss his offense because he is putrid. If ur claim is we need him for late inning defense, stick to that. Don’t bring up anything he can do offensively because if he is “playing regularly” then this team is completely tapioca.
    +++++++++++++++++
    Really? So extra information is too hard to process? Come on. If anyone is injured, the fact that Golson can field, steal bases, and hit enough for #9 spot in order is relevant.

    I continue to be open to hearing other names that are an upgrade.

    I listed:
    Jerry Hairston
    Scott Hariston
    Cody ROss
    Rocco Baldelli
    Lastings Milledge (thanks to YT)

    I’mnot thrilled by any of them. Milledge would be interesting but has shown himslef to be very immature, and an adventure in field…so I would take Golson over even him.

    You don’t need All-stars at every position on the bench to win it all.

  179. Rich in NJ December 22nd, 2010 at 12:10 am

    Pat M

    Until proven otherwise, I will think that Joba’s problems started with the shoulder injury. I don’t think it’s about his role.

    Joba’s 2008 game by game average FB velocity as a starter (prior to the injury) using Brooks Baseball’s Pitch Fx:

    6/3 95.24 2.1 IP
    6/8 96.22 4.1 IP
    6/13 94.57 6 IP
    6/19 95.12 5.2 IP
    6/25 95.34 6.2 IP
    7/1 94.81 4 IP
    7/6 94.94 6 IP
    7/11 94.79 6.2
    7/19 95.22 6 IP
    7/25 95.51 7 IP
    7/30 94.86 6 IP
    8/4 94.80 4.2 IP (shoulder injury)

    The guy was dealing.

    My point, however, is that the Joba experience shouldn’t dissuade from continuing to rely on young pitchers for big roles, in the pen or in the rotation.

  180. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2010 at 12:10 am

    Yankee Trader December 22nd, 2010 at 12:08 am
    he certainly didn’t help himself in shaking the immature jerk tag last week in Winter ball when he started a on field riot by pretending to toss a grenade into the visiting dugout after hitting a double. No thanks
    —————————————————————–
    Nyger Morgan and Millidge would make fine teammates. Oh wait, they were teammates!!!

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    add Manny Ramirez to that outfield and could you imagine what those three would do to a clubhouse?

  181. Against All Odds December 22nd, 2010 at 12:11 am

    Pat M. December 22nd, 2010 at 12:04 am

    Rich n NJ….They had one, Joba Chamberlain….He was a close to being Rivera ( 1995 ) as they’ll ever get….

    ——————————

    Again all of that based on a handful of innings Joba was never going to be Mo. We won’t see another Rivera in our lifetime.

  182. Yankee Trader December 22nd, 2010 at 12:11 am

    Cody Ross would be great, if he wasn’t already a Giant.

  183. Bret The Hitman December 22nd, 2010 at 12:12 am

    That’s actually funny how he incited a riot. Edge. This team needs at least one bad boy. How can anyone take baseball seriously on the Mets and Pirates…or winter ball for that matter?

  184. disco stu December 22nd, 2010 at 12:12 am

    Reading Cashman’s quotes from that article about using in-house options to round the rotation, I have to believe that is his way of playing coy so when the time comes for them to get serious about making a deal (either FA signings or trades) the Yankees wont have to overpay for mediocre talent.

    The Yankees have to bring at least one proven, veteran pitcher who is guaranteed a spot (especially if Andy retires). Cashman can say all he wants that the talent levels of Ivan Nova and Sergio Mitre can buy him time until some point in the season where players become available. But lets be honest, even lousy teams dont start selling off until June. So that would mean a ton of starts from two pitchers who under normal circumstances would only be in the rotation if there was an injury.

    Speaking of which, has Cashman not taken into consideration the possibility that CC, Phil, or A.J. might miss time because of injuries? Then what does he do? Ask David Phelps and Adam Warren to stem the tide or trade Delin Betances for a Zach Duke or Tom Gorzelanney because he is desparate for an experienced arm for 3 weeks?

    There is just too much fragility right now with the pitching … even if the talent is not superior, I would think that for a team that has its sights on making another run at #28 in 2011, they would need to add some depth to help insulate themselves.

  185. Jerkface December 22nd, 2010 at 12:13 am

    He didnt throw the grenade into the opposing dugout, he threw it into his own. And that was in the 4th. Then in the 7th they hit him, so he stole 2nd. THAT started the riot.

  186. Yankee Trader December 22nd, 2010 at 12:16 am

    If Pettitte returns I wouldn’t be surprised to see Nova/Noesi be the 5th starter, and Brackman added to the pen, with Montero, Nunez, Laird and Golson on the bench to start.

  187. 4time December 22nd, 2010 at 12:17 am

    Brett – Are you excited about Feliciano and Hairston yet?

  188. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2010 at 12:19 am

    Milledge is 25 years old and been on 4 teams in 5 years. There’s a good reason for that. He’s Elijah Dukes without the long rap sheet.

  189. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2010 at 12:22 am

    Whatever the exact details were about Milledge, he’s not worth the headaches that he causes. 4 teams will agree.

  190. Jerkface December 22nd, 2010 at 12:25 am

    Milledge is 25 years old and been on 4 teams in 5 years. There’s a good reason for that. He’s Elijah Dukes without the long rap sheet.

    Thats unfair. Dukes is an actual criminal. Milledge is just an expressive youth. He incited a riot because he was trying to pump up his teammates? He got lashed on the Mets for high-fiving the fans (which Manny got dapp for) and for not being the humble rookie.

    He could be worked with. He just wants to be on the team and doing well.

  191. Pat M. December 22nd, 2010 at 12:26 am

    Jerkface one last time so even you can understand this….Inflammation ( tendinitis ) is not an injury, it’s a symptom as a result of the over using muscles and tendons ….This is a little unusual for young athlete’s but mostly found in pitchers….Hughes was shut down when he was in the minors ( 2005 ? ) because of shoulder fatigue and tendinitis…….Structurally Joba Chamberlain was not injured and he he’s fine……..As I grew older I had bouts with this in my left knee and would get a cortisone shot and to this day I still get epidural shots in my back due to inflammation…….

  192. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2010 at 12:27 am

    Seattle wants an impact bat for closer David Aardsma. Good luck with that one.

  193. Rich in NJ December 22nd, 2010 at 12:32 am

    Pat M

    We only really know what the Yankees have publicly released about Joba. It’s possible that the reality is different.

  194. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2010 at 12:32 am

    Well maybe you should adopt Milledge then. You can teach him so much. For all of his talent. the best talent he’s been traded for is Ryan Church. I’m hardly being “unfair”. he’s trouble where ever he goes. At his age, he’s no longer “youthful”, just a jerk.

  195. JCPD December 22nd, 2010 at 12:33 am

    GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2010 at 12:27 am
    Seattle wants an impact bat for closer David Aardsma. Good luck with that one

    ————————————————————————————–

    Sure, let’s give them Montero, he’s got an impact bat……………. but they have to throw in Felix!! ;-)

  196. Jerkface December 22nd, 2010 at 12:33 am

    This is a little unusual for young athlete’s but mostly found in pitchers

    I don’t think its unusual for young athletes, lots of young pitchers get it, then get another surgery if it doesnt go away. And either way, something radically changed from pre-tendonitis to post-tendonitis. Maybe he is scared of real damage. He got an MRI and was sent to Andrews with the results for further review. It was in his shoulder, which is serious.

    And tendonitis is more than just inflammation, it can be caused by other more serious damage to the area especially in the shoulder. You’re supposed to stop doing any activity with that group for a week, then do light resistance and if the pain continues rest for 3+ weeks.

    Maybe Joba did not sufficiently re-strengthen his shoulder in 08?

  197. Pat M. December 22nd, 2010 at 12:34 am

    Rich in NJ…..Earlier someone linked a graphic showing Joba’s charted fastball velocity from last season……He still brings it, his problem is location and he goes to deep into the inning pitch wise……..

  198. LGY December 22nd, 2010 at 12:36 am

    Why are people taking Cashman’s quotes this winter so serious?

    Most politicians are more honest with their public statements than Brian Cashman.

  199. Jerkface December 22nd, 2010 at 12:37 am

    Well maybe you should adopt Milledge then. You can teach him so much. For all of his talent. the best talent he’s been traded for is Ryan Church. I’m hardly being “unfair”. he’s trouble where ever he goes. At his age, he’s no longer “youthful”, just a jerk.

    I wouldn’t want to adopt him, but I wish the Yankees would inquire about it. And comparing him to Elijah Dukes is quite unfair. Duke is a literal criminal. Having been arrested for assault, fathering numerous children with numerous ladies, threatening them with violence, and then finally being arrested for not paying child support.

    Milledge high-fived some fans and got called out by Billy Wagner. Way different cases.

  200. Jerkface December 22nd, 2010 at 12:38 am

    Rich in NJ…..Earlier someone linked a graphic showing Joba’s charted fastball velocity from last season……He still brings it, his problem is location and he goes to deep into the inning pitch wise……

    If you look at the black bars, he is no longer reaching the upper 90s regularly and his average velocity is less. Either it was a natural loss of velocity or something is different. Everyone talks about mechanics, but why has he forgotten Mechanics that worked in 07 and 08 (until injury)?

    Too fat?

  201. Pat M. December 22nd, 2010 at 12:38 am

    Rich in NJ , That’s a very valid point about not fully releasing Andrew’s findings….Did the Yanks shut him down for the remainder of the 08 season ????? And it is of interest that midway through the 09 campaign he was offered up with Montero to Toronto for Doc Hallady………

  202. Pat M. December 22nd, 2010 at 12:46 am

    Conditioning is certainly part of the equation, besides that I think he fell into some poor habits as he began to pace himself for the long haul of a start….Remember after the break in 09, he came back just humming heaters then after 3 starts he just completely unraveled…….I just think in his head he’s caught between to cycles mentally, one of a starter and now he’s trying to become a reliever again….What is encouraging is that he did close out 2010 on a upswing……I think the club screwed up by switching him mid season in 08…….It was after all a lost season in 08 so maybe the thought process was to get a head start for 09…..It backfired in that regard……..As I’ve stated several times. the image of Joba and Hughes throwing every 5 days had every Yankee fan and certainly the Front Office just drooling……

  203. BJK December 22nd, 2010 at 12:50 am

    Joba pitched less than 1 year in the minors.

    7 starts in Tampa.
    7 starts in Trenton.
    1 start in Scranton (+2 relief appearances).

    That’s 88.1 IP in his minor league career. 135 Ks in 88.1 IP. He was mowing down his competition in his first and only year in the minors, almost entirely as a starter.

    David Price had 109 IP when he was called up to play the same role for the Rays in ’08 as Joba played for the Yankees in ’09. Price was stellar too. The difference was the Rays had the balls and patience to send Price back to AAA to continue his preparation as a starter for the beginning of 2009 for another 8 starts/34 innings before being deemed ready to pitch in a major league rotation.

    Joba was tossed into the fire, and these are the results.

    It’s hard to forget watching him dominate at Fenway the way he did. It’s tragic that the Yankees refused to take their time with him, or even call an audible and send him back to AAA once he was struggling to see if he could figure it out.

    Hopefully they learned something and won’t make the same mistake with Betances and Banuelos. And hopefully, Joba figures it out and becomes Joba again someday.

  204. Jerkface December 22nd, 2010 at 12:52 am

    .Remember after the break in 09, he came back just humming heaters then after 3 starts he just completely unraveled…….I just think in his head he’s caught between to cycles mentally, one of a starter and now he’s trying to become a reliever again

    I don’t buy that. In the end he is still just throwing a ball. He didn’t need any mental preparation to beast it up in 08. Look at the velocity data.

    08 vs Boston, and Pit — AVG FASTBALL 95.1 , HIGH 99
    09 vs Det, TB, Oak post-ASB – AVG FASTBALL 92 HIGH 96

    Not even the same.

    Joba had an electric fastball as a starter in 08. It was absent in 09. He hasn’t had the same electric fastball in 2010 as a reliever.

  205. Jerkface December 22nd, 2010 at 12:54 am

    It’s hard to forget watching him dominate at Fenway the way he did. It’s tragic that the Yankees refused to take their time with him, or even call an audible and send him back to AAA once he was struggling to see if he could figure it out.

    They should have never made him a reliever at the end of 07 just to appease Torre. There was no way they could send Joba to the minors after that debut. Yankee Fans would have rioted.

    Yankee merchandising would have pooped as they boxed up the Joba Rules shirts.

  206. LGY December 22nd, 2010 at 12:54 am

    “Its important to remember what the Yankees are seeking to replace. Andy Pettitte and Javier Vazquez combined to pitch 286 innings for the Yankees with a combined ERA of 4.40.”

    http://www.theyankeeu.com/2010.....like-23885

  207. LGY December 22nd, 2010 at 12:55 am

    I’m still not convinced Andy is not coming back.

    Will be interesting to see how much this place changes if he announces he is returning.

  208. BJK December 22nd, 2010 at 1:04 am

    Jerkface December 22nd, 2010 at 12:54 am

    They should have never made him a reliever at the end of 07 just to appease Torre. There was no way they could send Joba to the minors after that debut. Yankee Fans would have rioted.

    Yankee merchandising would have pooped as they boxed up the Joba Rules shirts.

    ——————————————————————————————————-

    I wonder what kind of shirts Tampa had to box up for David Price? If they had to box up any Joba Rules shirts, it wouldn’t have been for long. And they might be selling more now.

    Even if they couldn’t send him down at the beginning of ’08 (fear of those riots), what about when he was struggling in ’09?

    What about at the beginning of ’10 to prep him to be the 6th starter after he “lost out” to Hughes?

  209. Jerkface December 22nd, 2010 at 1:05 am

    Looking at the velocity charts from 08, one thing is certain. He lived 95 and regularly touched 98-99 in every start. In 09 his average velocity was 91-93, and his high was often 95-96. He got to 97 in a handful of starts.

    His average velocity from 08 was his high velocity in most starts in 09.

  210. Pat M. December 22nd, 2010 at 1:06 am

    Face…The yanks were in a fight for a playoff spot in 07…….Cashman brought Torre and Guidry to Scranton to watch him pitch, they did come up with the Joba rules to prevent his over usage in 07…….Had they not made that incredible turn around to win the Wild Card I think Joba doesn’t even see the parent club in 07…..I think they rushed Hushes rehab a little also from his injury and then he turns an ankle and he’s delayed coming back……It was Joba, Hughes and Ian Kennedy who all made the wild Card possible with their September contributions……Hence they are counted upon as starters in 08……I agree with you, once Joba showed signs of struggling in 09 he should have been sent down, but they farted around with Wang and ruined him as well…..Randy was exploding back then about these turn od events and most thought he was crazy or just taking shots at Cashman….Tin Cup was right……

  211. Jerkface December 22nd, 2010 at 1:07 am

    Even if they couldn’t send him down at the beginning of ‘08 (fear of those riots), what about when he was struggling in ‘09?

    What about at the beginning of ‘10 to prep him to be the 6th starter after he “lost out” to Hughes?

    They should have.

  212. Pat M. December 22nd, 2010 at 1:11 am

    Where was his fastball in 2010…..He was a much different physically in 07 and 08 , weight wise is apparent…….

  213. Jerkface December 22nd, 2010 at 1:26 am

    Where was his fastball in 2010…..He was a much different physically in 07 and 08 , weight wise is apparent…….

    Cursory look at 20 outings from the beginning, middle, and end of season. He was around 92-94, highs of 96. At times sat 95. But with a high of 95…

    Saw one with an avg of 94 and a high of 98. Thats close to ‘starter’ Joba, but reliever Joba in 07 averaged 97 mph

  214. Pat M. December 22nd, 2010 at 1:28 am

    Listen Face, if I came across in a rude or abrupt earlier tonight I apologize……

  215. DaSaint007 December 22nd, 2010 at 1:29 am

    This must be comic night. Carlo is hilliarious.

    My 2 cents -
    Golson has upside as 4th OF for the following reasons:
    Patient: Willing to accept limited playing time
    Good defender: Covers lots of ground, good read of balls, plus and accurate arm
    Versitile: All OF positions, pinch runner, base stealer
    Affordable: $400K affordable
    Age: 25?

  216. DaSaint007 December 22nd, 2010 at 1:35 am

    Pat M,

    Three young guys that Cashman mishandled in my opinion are Tyler Clippard, Ian Kennedy, and Joba Chamberlain.

    Clippard was never given a chance. Not saying that he would be the second coming of anyone, but the kid had decent stuff. He just got blown out of a couple games.

    IPK reportedly had attitude problems and/or was arrogant about his talent. But he was talented. He’s the type of guy the Yankees pursue in a couple years when they’re looking for a mid-rotation starter.

    Joba is probably Joba’s worst enemy, but moving him back and forth didn’t help. IMO, he should have been sent back to AAA to fix his mechanics or get in shape. I don’t care if he’s a setup guy or starter, but he should have been sent back to Scranton.

  217. Pat M. December 22nd, 2010 at 1:53 am

    DaSaint007….I know Ian or at least I did until a few years ago and he’s a good kid…Not as quiet or reserved as Phillip but nothing like the impression that the media made him out to be…..I’ll never forgive Ian for knocking out my Little League All Star team out of the playoffs in 1997…..He played one year along with Phillip back in 2001 on a Summer Connie Mack team that I coached with…….Scouts galore, both College as well as Pros used to come out to these games as it was a select team of the best baseball talent in Orange County…..Ian is going to have himself a nice career that will earn him many million of dollars…….Shame that Arizona demanded him in the Granderson deal…..He’d be ready right now to be a plus in the Yanks 2011 rotation…..

  218. DaSaint007 December 22nd, 2010 at 2:00 am

    Pat M,

    Any thoughts on Clippard?

  219. BJK December 22nd, 2010 at 2:02 am

    IPK got a bad press for a couple of misguided quotes after a bad start that of course the NY press and fan base made a big deal out of.

    Of course, his biggest sin at the time was not being as flashy as Jobamania or Phil Franchise.

  220. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2010 at 2:07 am

    Maybe Cashman can offer Adams, Mitchell and Heyer to Arizona for Kennedy.

  221. Pat M. December 22nd, 2010 at 2:14 am

    DaSaint007….The events of 2007 season were so bizarre that many young guys were just thrust-ed into a no win situation…..Karstens was another guy who was thrown to the wolves……Who was the guy who had to pitch in Fenway on an ESPN Sunday night game who was ripped for 4 straight dingers ???? I remember he was pitching alright and then disaster struck in a flurry of long balls…..

  222. Jerkface December 22nd, 2010 at 2:19 am

    Who was the guy who had to pitch in Fenway on an ESPN Sunday night game who was ripped for 4 straight dingers ???? I remember he was pitching alright and then disaster struck in a flurry of long balls…..

    Chase Wright, had his moment of un-glory and was kicked back to the minors where some say he still dwells in the heart of milwaukee

  223. Pat M. December 22nd, 2010 at 2:35 am

    Face, wasn’t he called up from AA Ball where he was having a nice season and then boom ????

  224. jacksquat December 22nd, 2010 at 2:35 am

    Chad, Rob Neyer linked to your “the best of what’s left” post from his Wednesday Wangdoodles.

    http://espn.go.com/blog/sweets.....doodles-80

  225. Jerkface December 22nd, 2010 at 2:39 am

    Face, wasn’t he called up from AA Ball where he was having a nice season and then boom ????

    yes, he was in AA but the yankees needed someone to start in 07 in april. First 5 games were: Pavano, Moose, Pettitte, Igawa, Rasner…dark times. Moose and Pavano both hit the DL and Wright had been placed on the 40 the winter before due to the rule 5.

    His debut was solid against the indians (a good indians team at the time) , but that boston game…

  226. Pat M. December 22nd, 2010 at 2:44 am

    Then they had to call up Hughes a few weeks later ….They went through a ton of starters in 07, and yes The Indians were a good club as we found out that October….Although Yanks had them beat and then the midges….Torre screwed up by starting Wang on the road rather than at The Stadium ……The end of the Joe Torre Reign in The Bronx as a result…..

  227. BJK December 22nd, 2010 at 3:12 am

    Leaving his team on the field, especially a 22 year old pitcher with about 100 innings of professional ball experience, was an unforgivable offense.

    At that point, Torre was like the Grandfather who’s been at the helm of the family business too long. You love the guy, but it’s really best for everybody if he retires.

  228. Pat M. December 22nd, 2010 at 3:32 am

    BJK….Those errors in judgement, Wang starting game 2 in Cleveland rather than In Yankee Stadium where he was st is best and of course the midges game was insaine….

  229. Drive 4-6 December 22nd, 2010 at 5:39 am

    “Atta boy”? Should the fans be saying “Atta boy” when they buy their 2011 tickets and see they’ve gone up in price? I find a couple of Cashman’s public statements lately a little bizarre. The other one was th one at the Winter Meetings “Sometimes I feel like I’m more like the manager of the Yankeees checkbook”.

    Well Brian we wish you luck. Now go general manage the Yankees farm system and bring home a team that can beat the Rangers and Bostons of the AL.

  230. PittsburghYankeeFan December 22nd, 2010 at 6:20 am

    I saw quite a bit of Lastings Milledge in Pittsburgh. I was kind of surprised they let him go–he was cheap and decent in a middle of the road kind of way. His attitude was not an issue, as far as we fans in Pittsburgh could tell.

    He’d be a very cheap pickup. The issue with all of these pick-ups is that they give Girardi a chance to play with his new toys (ie Randy Winn, Austin Kearns, etc). I’d much rather have him play with the rookies who have potential than guys who perhaps have achieved their peak.

    Add one or two grizzled vets to the bench (I like Damon, with all of his flaws at this age) and call it a day. Go down to Texas and convince Andy to be the savior. Fix AJ. Anyone is better than Javy Vasquez. Remember that without Cliff Lee, in May-June-July of 2010 the Yankees had the best rotation in the majors with essentially those guys. If you want to splurge, go after Soriano–payroll with him and Andy would still be less than last year, and he’d be the closer of the future, having learned from the all time master for two years.

    This is still a 95-100 win team. Boston is basically the same team as last year. Rays are much much worse.

  231. Doreen December 22nd, 2010 at 6:38 am

    Sorry I closed up shop so early last night. Looks like I missed out on some really, really good posts by Pat M, Rich in NJ, BJK and Jerkface. Good stuff guys. Good to wake up to. :)

    Good morning, morning people. Early day today.

    Picking up the daughter. We’ve learned she’ll be home with us through New Year’s so we’re pleasantly surprised by that. The food prep for Xmas begins in earnest today. Not going to have much time for the Cashman Chronicles over the next few days. I think this is good. :)

  232. BIG AL December 22nd, 2010 at 6:48 am

    Good morning Doreen. The most important things to discuss in the coming days is family and Christmas, the rest is just fluff.

  233. BIG AL December 22nd, 2010 at 6:50 am

    MTU -

    You lurking, or still building that arc?

  234. BIG AL December 22nd, 2010 at 6:53 am

    I meant ark, it could be a big boat with an arc shape I guess.

  235. SAS December 22nd, 2010 at 6:58 am

    Good morning Doreen,

    I have been sleeping in long naps. I should be asleep now, but that’s how it goes. Hope that you are all set for the holidays so that you can spend time where you belong….on the blog…lol.

    I read most of the posts from last night….interesting posts. I assume there will be fewer people on here with the festivities begin.

  236. Doreen December 22nd, 2010 at 7:03 am

    This will be my last post until later this evening, I think. I have to wake up daughter #2, get her ready for school and then once the bus picks her up, we’re on the road. Then we get back and I held off baking the chocolate chip cookies so I could do that with daughter #1.

    SAS – As long as all the long naps refresh you and you get enough rest. I think I’m going to be missing from here except for hit-and-runs until after Christmas.

    Big Al – As much as I love being with my family at the holidays, I could write a book. Sigh. ;)

    Have a great day everyone!

  237. BIG AL December 22nd, 2010 at 7:06 am

    Doreen -

    We love it when they come, and smile inside when they leave, lol.

  238. BIG AL December 22nd, 2010 at 7:08 am

    Need to get some coffee.

  239. Doreen December 22nd, 2010 at 7:14 am

    Big Al -

    That about sums it up, I guess. LOL

  240. SAS December 22nd, 2010 at 7:16 am

    Big Al,

    Happy holidays to you and yours.

  241. BIG AL December 22nd, 2010 at 7:20 am

    SAS -

    Thank you so much. I want to wish you and your family a great Christmas together, and a happy and healthy New Year.

    Are you having the whole family home for the holidays?

  242. BIG AL December 22nd, 2010 at 7:22 am

    JCPD -

    Are you out there Jim, or still making snow angels.

  243. SAS December 22nd, 2010 at 7:28 am

    Al.

    We had the whole family for Thanksgiving. We are more scattered for Christmas and New Years. My husband’s family and they scatter more now. That s why we are in AZ now.

    As long as my older son is well, I am happy.

  244. MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 7:31 am

    Good morning folks.

    Yes Al. I am continuing work on the Ark.

    I think the river crested yesterday. There is going to be quite a mess left in the wake of these storms.

    We dodged a bullet when a local dam that was expected to fail didn’t.

    That would have doubled the amount of water in the riveralmost instantly.

  245. BIG AL December 22nd, 2010 at 7:33 am

    SAS -

    I know what you mean by family being scattered. That was such great news on your sons test results, what more could you ask for this holiday season than positive news. Her’s hoping all continues well.

    We moved to NC 2 1/2 years ago from NE PA, and all our kids where in NJ, about 2 hours away, but now we’re too far away for the normal visits we use to enjoy.

    We use Skype to keep in touch, at least seeing our sons, and grandsons on the computer each week lessons our missing them a bit.

  246. BIG AL December 22nd, 2010 at 7:35 am

    Mike -

    Good pics on the river. Good time to buy those wet suits and life vests. A rubber raft might also be in order.

  247. BIG AL December 22nd, 2010 at 7:37 am

    Mike -

    You keep getting up so late, I’m going to start calling you, “Afternoon Guy”.

  248. blake December 22nd, 2010 at 7:37 am

    MTU,

    swimming is a good cmpliment to hiking for a workout ;) glad the dam didn’t break.
    –—————-
    Millidge wouldn’t be a bad pickup. He does hit lefties well and may have some upside left. I also like Damon as Pittsburg mentioned last last if he will accept a complimentary role to come home to the Yanks.. (he probably would get more ABs than we think).

    I still think when it comes down to it then Pettite will come back.

  249. MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 7:39 am

    Al-

    Thanks. Hopefully, no one has been injured or killed. It was an awesome sight.

    We had the 100 year flood in 2005. Fortunately, they reinforced the river banks after that because it may be happening again.

    No sign of Jim whatsoever. He’s gone underground.

    Have a joyous Holiday with your Family.

  250. MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 7:41 am

    Al-

    Wasn’t there a Pitcher named “Early” Wynn, or something like that.

    Well, at any rate, I’m no longer him.

    Blake-

    I’ll keep that in mind.

    ;)

  251. SAS December 22nd, 2010 at 7:42 am

    Al,

    We use skype too to see our grandson who will be 3 on Jan.2. My younger son is moving the week after New Years….closer to us when we are NY, but more important they will hopefully have another grandchild in our future. Fingers crossed. I am a good mother-in-law and don’t ask questions.

  252. BIG AL December 22nd, 2010 at 7:45 am

    Got to get ready to get out of here. Busy day, the baby’s are going to the groomer for their holiday beauty treatment, and need to pick up some last minute things.

  253. BIG AL December 22nd, 2010 at 7:47 am

    SAS -

    Our oldest grandson will be 13, January 21, and the younger grandson will turn 6 on May 20.

    Sure glad only the kids are getting older, and we’re just staying the same.

  254. MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 7:47 am

    Blake-

    Were you surprised at all by Cashman’s statement regarding the Yankee budget ?

    The one where he seems to be bragging about keeping it down.

  255. BIG AL December 22nd, 2010 at 7:49 am

    Mike -

    Yes, you are correct about Early Wynn. Stating to enjoy staying between the sheets more, must be the beginning of your hibernation faze.

  256. SAS December 22nd, 2010 at 7:49 am

    MTU,

    Glad to see you have electricity and so forth. I have been thinking about you and the floods. So far no rain here, but that is supposed to change today. No bad floods or anything, I don’t think, but about an inch of rain.

    No precip. on our trek back. The wind was somethng special, but we are here now. I am hoping all will be well in your neck of the woods.

  257. upstate kate December 22nd, 2010 at 7:52 am

    good morning all :)
    well we passed our audit w/ flying colors and my son made it home from college in one piece (not until 2 am however) so I am happy today!
    I see there is still no surprise from Cashman.

  258. blake December 22nd, 2010 at 7:52 am

    MTU,

    a little…..I think Cashman needs to take a refresher course with Jeter on how to talk but say nothing to the media. Seems like he’s trying to put a positive spin on the winter so far…..I do think its good that they are getting it down though because it gives them more flexibility going forward and allows them to give less.money to their competition.

  259. BIG AL December 22nd, 2010 at 7:52 am

    The weather man says we’ll have snow on Christmas Day, if so, it’ll be only the 3rd time in recorded history down here.

    Last winter the coldest on record, followed by the hottest summer on record, now this December the coldest on record, what the heck is going on.

  260. SAS December 22nd, 2010 at 7:53 am

    Al, we now celebrate having birthdays…not the number associated with it. What I can;t believe is that our older son will be forty. I was a kid when when he was born.

  261. Carlo December 22nd, 2010 at 7:53 am

    # DaSaint007 December 22nd, 2010 at 1:29 am

    This must be comic night. Carlo is hilliarious.

    My 2 cents -
    Golson has upside as 4th OF for the following reasons:
    Patient: Willing to accept limited playing time
    Good defender: Covers lots of ground, good read of balls, plus and accurate arm
    Versitile: All OF positions, pinch runner, base stealer
    Affordable: $400K affordable
    Age: 25?

    ————————————————–

    Thank you Saint…..comedy comes naturally to me.

    Maybe I am too hard on Golson……i mean he does have a career OPS of .467 and we are his 3rd team in 3 years…….but heck, he must be a solid bench player and I just don’t see it yet.

    Happy holidays to everyone…..here’s to hoping Cashman realizes that if the rotation is sub par and the lineup is inflexible and not exactly filled with spring chickens and he doesnt want to spend much more, he can always find players to augment the bench that are better than greg golson. maybe he realizes that its ok to put a guy we swapped for mitch hilligoss in AAA for the year.

  262. MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 7:55 am

    Al-

    What could be better than stayin’ between the sheets ?

    ;)

    SAS-

    Thanks for thinking of us out here. We were never really in danger as we live on a mesa which is 600 ft. above the river.

    Several bridges were washed out and there has been widespread flooding in the lower lying areas.

    We got lucky on a dam that was supposed to fail.

    Big cleanup will be needed. Lots of people will be put to work cleaning up the mess. That’s the silver linning I guess.

    So far, I have not heard about any loss of life which is the main thing.

    Hope you have a great Holiday. Say hi to Ole’ Leadfoot for me.

    :)

  263. SAS December 22nd, 2010 at 7:55 am

    Kate,

    I am so happy that you all will be together this year. Enjoy every minute.

  264. BIG AL December 22nd, 2010 at 7:57 am

    Cashman doesn’t have any large presents to put under the tree, but, perhaps a little something in the stocking to keep us all happy.

    Whatever the future, I’m still of the belief this team will be in the division fight till the end. It’s a long season, sit back and enjoy the ride.

  265. upstate kate December 22nd, 2010 at 7:58 am

    thank you SAS…time goes by so fast, it seems like he was just entering high school and here he is in his 2nd year of college.

  266. MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 7:59 am

    Blake-

    No matter how you put lipstick on a pig it’s still a pig.

    Cashman should have kept his trap shut IMO.

    I could care less if a couple of billionaires save some money.

    Since they are, maybe they ought to lower ticket prices for the fans.

    Dismal off season buddy. Poor planning on Cashman’s part.

    I’m still hoping AP will bail us out.

    ;)

  267. SAS December 22nd, 2010 at 7:59 am

    MTU,

    I will send my best to him for you. He did a great job getting us here in 4 days. I don’t know why I am tired, but I am, I didn’t do anything, but he is exhausted. We’ll take it easy this weekend.

    The happiest of holidays to you and yours….don’t forget the mops.

  268. MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 8:02 am

    SAS-

    Much appreciated. Hope happiness and peace find their way to your doorstep.

    And, of course, good health.

    :)

  269. Carlo December 22nd, 2010 at 8:03 am

    MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 7:59 am

    Blake-

    No matter how you put lipstick on a pig it’s still a pig.

    Cashman should have kept his trap shut IMO.

    I could care less if a couple of billionaires save some money.

    Since they are, maybe they ought to lower ticket prices for the fans.

    ———————————

    Haha – im a season ticket holder. My 2011 season tickets are up 25% year over year from 2010.

  270. MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 8:04 am

    Carlo-

    Put in for a rebate.

    :)

  271. JCPD December 22nd, 2010 at 8:08 am

    AL…. lots of snow angels. It’s been the snowiest December in Syracuse on record and we haven’t even had any snow for the last week. Right now, we stand at 71 inches. Off to work, then have the next three days off so I’ll head down to Corning. Then back here for the final three and a half weeks. A reprieve from the hotel room will be nice.

  272. MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 8:10 am

    JCPD-

    Good to know you are still alive. I was beginning to wonder.

    Enjoy your time off.

  273. BIG AL December 22nd, 2010 at 8:10 am

    Mike -

    To me, the worst part of Cashman’s statement was admitting he lost out on players he wanted, due to waiting on Lee.

    The process should have started earlier with Lee, but he allowed Lee’s camp to set the pace and did not have his other irons hot in the fire.

    An honest exchange with the Lee camp would have avoided this mess. Trying to be too nice, just is not how a big business does things. This is our top offer, if it is acceptable, and Cliff wants to be a NYY, let us know by this date, if not, we need to go in another direction, before other players we’re interested in come off the board. Please do not think we are trying to pressure Cliff, but, we are trying to build a great team, and can’t afford a long delay in his decision. That’s how I would have handled it.

    Cashman was tip toeing around Lee, so as not to get on his bad side, and what did it get us, screwed by Lee. Cashman was just too nice when he learned about Lee’s picking the Phillies, he should have said I’m not only disappointed Cliff’s not coming to NY, but, also the lack of honesty about his interest in becoming a NYY.

  274. blake December 22nd, 2010 at 8:11 am

    MTU,

    Cash has made several interesting comments this winter. Some I haven’t cared for……I think he does need to be a bit more careful with his quotes. To me, the only failure thus far is not getting Lee and I don’t believe that was entirely in their control…..perhaps they could’ve pushed harder, sold NY harder, but in the end Lee just wanted to go to Philly. Im not sure what the backup plans would have been….there isn’t a lot out there that matches up with their needs via free agency and teams are apparently asking the moon in trades right now. My only real criticism (if this is true) is if they discussed Greinke at the winter meetings and then never called them after that…..the Brewers apparently called the Royals non-stop until they got a deal done.. I don’t know if they could’ve ever reached an agreement but it seems they could’ve pushed a little harder than the reports say they did. We just don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes.

  275. Carlo December 22nd, 2010 at 8:11 am

    # MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 8:04 am

    Carlo-

    Put in for a rebate.

    :)

    ———————–

    well last year I only got to see Golson for a handful of at bats at the Stadium……..so i assume the increase in prices is due to the fact that he will get a lot more playing time this year because he is a very good bench player according to this blog.

  276. SAS December 22nd, 2010 at 8:11 am

    JCPD,

    Good to hear from you. Have the happiest of holidays to you and your family.

  277. Carlo December 22nd, 2010 at 8:14 am

    blake December 22nd, 2010 at 8:11 am

    MTU,

    Cash has made several interesting comments this winter. Some I haven’t cared for……I think he does need to be a bit more careful with his quotes. To me, the only failure thus far is not getting Lee and I don’t believe that was entirely in their control

    ————————————————–

    I agree with this…..it was the goal, it wasn’t entirely in his control…….it didn’t work out for us. There is basically nothing we can blame Cashman for as it relates to Lee…….other than the fact that he almost gave up Montero for two+ months of him and had no idea he didnt care to play here longer term.

    The easy way to fault Cashman is his complete lack of strategy this offseason. He had no plan B whatsoever. When lee didnt work out, he was left in the cold and he got circles run around him by his peers. Say what you will, but Crawford was absolutely plan B thus freeing up the yankees to deal Gardner and help on the pitching front. When that fell apart, he was left swimming nude when the tide went out.

  278. Betsy December 22nd, 2010 at 8:15 am

    Big Al, Cash was never going to put pressure on Lee – and I agree with him. He didn’t pressure CC to make a decision either – and CC appreciated that. That said, he should not have been waiting on Lee to make other moves. This is something a novice GM does; Cashman should have known better. Plus, what’s he done with the Lee $$$? He’s sat on it, except for Martin and Feliciano while allowing the Sox to basically remake their pen.

  279. BIG AL December 22nd, 2010 at 8:16 am

    JCPD -

    Jim, good to hear from you. It’s good to be going home for a few days, be careful on the roads.

    How is Dakota making out?

    Mike is hoping you learn to use the new camera well, so he can pick your brain for ideas. Give him a “900″ number to call for tech support.

  280. MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 8:16 am

    Al-

    I absolutely agree and I said so here during the process. That offer should have been time sensitive after a while.

    In either case, Cashman should have had a viable BU plan which IMO he did not.

    He left all his eggs in one basket and when they turned out to be scrambled it was him who was left scrambling.

    He let Lee hold us hostage for too long.

    Looks like we’re about to find out exactly how good the Farm really is.

    That’s the good part.

  281. JCPD December 22nd, 2010 at 8:17 am

    MTU, SAS, AL………… I’ve stayed away A) because of being busy because of training and B) I find absolutely no enjoyment in reading the non stop, repetitive bickering that’s been going on here. Once I get home and can get on my computer, I’ll hopefully have some decent pictures of the winter wonderland here.

  282. Tar December 22nd, 2010 at 8:18 am

    I agree with Doreen, There were some very good posts last night.

    Carlo

    As for Golson: For me it’s not if Golson is a good bench player for the Yankees or not, It’s the fact that it’s December and there is no one player out there that the Yankees have to have.

    There is no benefit to filling out bench roles early (unless there is the perfect fit). Spring training competition is a good thing. Don’t worry about the Yankees bench, now ticket prices thats another story.

    Have a great day all.

  283. Mell December 22nd, 2010 at 8:18 am

    “An honest exchange with the Lee camp would have avoided this mess.”

    I’d guess Cashman was a lot more honest than the Lee camp was throughout this process. Braunecker’s job was to keep the Yankees involved in this thing. If that meant being a little disingenuous about their intentions vis a vis the Yankees, then so be it. Same thing worked for Boras/Teixeira when they were stringing Boston along til almost Christmas in 2008, only then it worked in the Yankees favor because that’s where Teixeira really wanted to be.

  284. Betsy December 22nd, 2010 at 8:19 am

    Blake, what more could Cashman have done with Lee? When you put out a great offer like the Yankees did and the player sits on it, well it’s obvious he didn’t want to play there. I’m sure Cash pushed as hard as he could, but there’s only so much you can do. I read yesterday, and I agree, that the Yankees felt that Lee used them – that the whole process was a waste of time when Lee really wanted Philly. He called Philly at the end, after NY and TX had spent all this time and effort in wooing him.

    In terms of quotes, the only things I’ve had issues with Cash were those posted above. He sounds like an idiot with the “atta baby” quote – in addition to sounding like a guy whose main objective this year was to try and win with a lower payroll to prove his detractors wrong.

  285. Betsy December 22nd, 2010 at 8:19 am

    I don’t blame Cash on Greinke at all. It was clear he had huge reservations about whether he could handle NY.

  286. SAS December 22nd, 2010 at 8:20 am

    You know it is just the few of us who hang on every word Cashman speaks. Most people are not even thinking baseball at this time of year. It is just us ‘bloggsters’ who parse every word and hand on to them for dear life.

    I continue to hope that the decisions made by Cash and the entire management will work our well for the management. There were some interesting comments last night on the subject.

  287. BIG AL December 22nd, 2010 at 8:21 am

    Betsy -

    I think with all big business decisions, there needs to be a time table to work within.

    I still think it would not have been pressure applied had Cashman simply stated a date in which he needed an answer.

    Lee played the Yankees, waiting for the Phillies offer, then stated that’s where he wanted to go all along.

    I don’t appreciate that, and as the Yankees GM, I would have done things differently, but, I’m not the GM, so it is what it is.

  288. BIG AL December 22nd, 2010 at 8:22 am

    Catch you all later – time to run.

  289. blake December 22nd, 2010 at 8:22 am

    Carlo,

    Here’s he thing though…..how could the Yankees have expected Boston to give Crawford 142 million dollars? I don’t know if they would have bid in that range even if they knew Lee was going to Philly because they don’t have the need to warrant that investment. The 2 outfield options were grossly overpaid…..Beltre is out there and could maybe be had at a fair price but the Yankees have nowhere to play him. The reality is that’s its tough to plan on spending 25 million on one guy and also budget backup plans.

  290. upstate kate December 22nd, 2010 at 8:23 am

    ok, I guess I need to go back and read last night’s comments! I usually just scroll down to the morning chatter.

  291. Betsy December 22nd, 2010 at 8:23 am

    http://www.nypost.com/p/sports.....cHUPl6cixK

    “We need A.J. to come back to previous form,” general manager Brian Cashman said of his former No. 2 starter who was 10-15 with a 5.26 ERA in 33 games last year and pushed to the bullpen for the ALDS against the Twins. “We signed A.J. not to be a back-of-the-rotation starter. He pitches in the front of the rotation, that’s what his abilities are and that’s what we expect. I got to believe we will see that again.”

    Cashman met with Burnett in Maryland before Thanksgiving and says the pitcher who is entering the third season of a five-year, $82.5 million contract.

    “He knows the responsibility he has to us and the fan base,” Cashman said.

    **Another silly quote. AJ was awful last year, but it’s not because he didn’t try. Cashman is expecting more from AJ than he’s capable of giving, probably because he knows how awful the situation is with the SP

  292. Mell December 22nd, 2010 at 8:25 am

    “We signed A.J. not to be a back-of-the-rotation starter. He pitches in the front of the rotation, that’s what his abilities are and that’s what we expect. I got to believe we will see that again.””

    Again???

  293. MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 8:25 am

    I think some of you are way too forgiving of Cashman.

    There is no excuse for not having a BU plan, or maybe 2.

    And when you fail you don’t make it worse by bragging about your failure by talking about how you saved money and missed out on other opportunities because of it.

    Nobody wants to hear that but the Steinbrenners.

    OK. I’ve said my piece on CashMonkey.

  294. blake December 22nd, 2010 at 8:28 am

    Betsy,

    I don’t know.that they could have done anything more with Lee. I don’t think they were as “all in ” as they were with CC but that’s not neccessarily a bad thing. Lee is older and the need wasn’t as great as it was after 2008. With Greinke, if they could have worked out a deal without Montero then it would have changed the complexion of the Yankee rotation…..he’s really good. He wasn’t worth the reported price but who knows if they could have negociated that down…..maybe maybe not.

  295. MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 8:31 am

    Betsy-

    If that is what Cashman is expecting from AJ he’s looney tunes.

  296. Carlo December 22nd, 2010 at 8:31 am

    # blake December 22nd, 2010 at 8:22 am

    Carlo,

    Here’s he thing though…..how could the Yankees have expected Boston to give Crawford 142 million dollars? I don’t know if they would have bid in that range even if they knew Lee was going to Philly because they don’t have the need to warrant that investment. The 2 outfield options were grossly overpaid…..Beltre is out there and could maybe be had at a fair price but the Yankees have nowhere to play him. The reality is that’s its tough to plan on spending 25 million on one guy and also budget backup plans.

    —————————————-

    I agree……Boston flat out overpaid for Crawford……without even seeing the offer we knew that. The simple fact that he signed it before seeing what happened with lee and knowing logically that his value would go up if we were in the bidding means even he knew it was an overpay.

    Fact is, i am down on cashman and this team right now……but I have no freaking understanding of how we could have made moves to change the course of this offseason.

    So basically, my frustration with the state of this rotation has manifested itself into an aggravation with Cashman when the bottom line is, I cant figure out a way for this offseason not to have been a mess post the Lee debacle.

    Now I just want him to improve the areas that can be improved without drastic expenditures for garbage or trades………work on the bench…..assemble a bench that leaves us saying “boy, arent we glad we have this guy” if we lose a starter for an extended period of time due to injury.

    Work on the bullpen….yes, we got feliciano, but the pen was not good last year until Wood came along and locked down the vital 8th inning role. I like robertson a lot….but i dont think he is a legitimate 8th inning guy, nor is Joba. the pen is a strength when those two guys are working the 7th inning or closing out 4 run games.

    I would like to see these two areas of need addressed before we head south for spring training. if they arent, then I truly believe he threw his hands up and stood pat with everything just to carry on the illusion that he thinks he did a fine job this offseason and this team is fine in his eyes.

  297. blake December 22nd, 2010 at 8:33 am

    MTU,

    They probably did have a backup plan. Sign Crawford and flip an outfielder for a pitcher…..they didn’t count on Boston throwing 142 million at Crawford and they didn’t count on Washington throwing 120+ million at Werth…..nobody did.

  298. Mell December 22nd, 2010 at 8:34 am

    “how could the Yankees have expected Boston to give Crawford 142 million dollars?”

    Good Morning Blake:

    One response I’d have to this is that once Werth was done, Cashman has to know where Crawford’s neighborhood is going to be. Or at least he should have known.

    I suspect Cashman viewed Crawford as a Plan B heading into the meetings and saw that plan shattered with the Werth deal. Seems a possibility, since he apparently did talk to the Royals about Greinke (part of Plan B or Plan C) during the meetings.

  299. Carlo December 22nd, 2010 at 8:34 am

    # Tar December 22nd, 2010 at 8:18 am

    Carlo

    As for Golson: For me it’s not if Golson is a good bench player for the Yankees or not, It’s the fact that it’s December and there is no one player out there that the Yankees have to have.

    —————————————————–

    Tar – if there were a few luxury areas we could tweak and it would be icing on the cake i would agree with you. If we had a solid staff 1-5 and a firm pen with defined roles then i would say ok….we can hold off on the bench. The problem is, we dont have those other things and they are going to be extremely difficult to fix. Thus, my belief is you have to improve all the other areas that can be upgraded as soon as possible. The pool of available players will do nothing but shrink as we get closer to the season…..make the moves necessary now to get strong in areas that have been ignored in recent years because they were nothing more than an afterthought given the strengths elsewhere.

  300. MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 8:35 am

    Carlo-

    I agree wtih you that there are still areas of need that can be addresed and hopefully they will be. Soon.

  301. Betsy December 22nd, 2010 at 8:40 am

    Blake, I didn’t really want Greinke because I wasn’t about to pay the price for a good (not great) pitcher who would possibly have issues in NY, but for a less package I may have chanced it. That said, either way, Banuelos or Betances would probably have to have been part of the package and think Cash would have walked away before trading them.

    MTU, but even if he expects that, why does he have to verabalize it? I still love AJ personally, but even I have to face that clearly he did not “find himself” like Schilling did. That’s what Cash was hoping for…………..and that’s not what he got. I don’t expect him to say in public that he only expects AJ to pitch “ok” because, after all, why tear down his player in public? But – he’s setting up AJ for failure if he thinks he’s going to pitch like a #1 or #2 – he’s never been that. If AJ pitches like a #3, I will be ecstatic.

  302. MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 8:40 am

    Blake-

    I still think we’re into the excuse phase here. Getting outmaneuvered
    isn’t acceptable in my eyes either. Remember, this guy has tremendous resources in both money and trade chips.

    Cashman made too many things contingent on Lee.

    I didn’t want cc at those prices anyway. the sux can have him at that price.

    Let’s hope Cashman continues his search for a viable starter and continues to strengthen the pen.

    These are things he still can, and should try to get done.

  303. Carlo December 22nd, 2010 at 8:42 am

    # MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 8:35 am

    Carlo-

    I agree wtih you that there are still areas of need that can be addresed and hopefully they will be. Soon.

    ————————————

    I hope so as well and frankly, every time I start to visualize this rotation with Nova and mitre/phelps/noesi in the starting 5 i feel good…………..because there is absolutely no way anyone can kid themselves that its acceptable to go to battle with that while still expecting folks to pay money and watch the team play. There is simply no way they dont make moves, regardless of the fact that no one on this board see’s any obvious ways to improve.

    “Well folks, join us this weekend on YES when the Yankees head to Fenway Park for a 3 game series against the Boston Red sox. Watch the Yankees do battle as Ivan Nova, Sergio Mitre, and Hector Noesi take on the red sox and Johh Lackey, Dice K Matsuzaka, and Jpsh Beckett. Pregame starts at 6:30 here on Yes with the postgame sometime after 3AM, or sooner if the mercy rule sets in.”

  304. blake December 22nd, 2010 at 8:45 am

    Mell,

    Good morning. Totally agree. Once Werth signed then Cashman had to know that Crawfsord was going to beat that number at least…..however he probably still thought he would wait until Lee signed to move. Its unlikely that ownership would have oked 20 million for Crawfkrd and 23 million for Lee both……so he had a decision to make, stay he course with Lee and hope Crawford was still available if he signed elsewhere or break off from Lee and pursue Crawford right then. Obviously they chose to let the Leestakes play out and they wound up win neither but im not sure that they made a mistake in the say the went about it.

  305. MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 8:45 am

    Betsy-

    With respect AJ being a #2 I have only one question for Cashman.

    How’s it feel to want ?

    :)

  306. Carlo December 22nd, 2010 at 8:46 am

    Betsy December 22nd, 2010 at 8:40 am

    Blake, I didn’t really want Greinke because I wasn’t about to pay the price for a good (not great) pitcher who would possibly have issues in NY, but for a less package I may have chanced it. That said, either way, Banuelos or Betances would probably have to have been part of the package and think Cash would have walked away before trading them.

    ———————–

    See Betsy, my issue is that even if Greinke came and failed here, we would still be able to deal him and turn him into something of value. There is no denying that he is a very good pitcher and if he couldn’t hack it in NY, his trade value wouldn’t be as compromised because folks would chalk it up to his inability to handle NY.

  307. upstate kate December 22nd, 2010 at 8:48 am

    I am still hopeful that Cash has something up his sleeve…I really don’t believe that he didn’t have a few back ups plans, especially as Lee kept dragging his feet.

  308. MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 8:49 am

    IMO the asking price for Greinke was just too high. Period.

  309. Against All Odds December 22nd, 2010 at 8:50 am

    # Rich in NJ December 21st, 2010 at 11:48 pm

    “Who says that have t wait long. They might bring in a stop gap a yr or two until they find the right guy. Besides Joba was never going to be Rivera anyway.”

    No one is ever going to be Rivera, at least in most of our lifetimes.

    The pressure on the closer who “replaces” Rivera will be immense.

    A stopgap guy probably won’t be able to handle it.

    If a top closer can be had a by a trade, fine. It’s not a certainty though.

    Again, the best solution is to stockpile great young arms in the hope that one or two may emerge as potential solutions.
    ———————————————————-

    A stop gap guy might not be able to do it but a kid from the farm who will be bombarded with the legacy of Mo day in and day out will?

  310. Against All Odds December 22nd, 2010 at 8:52 am

    # upstate kate December 22nd, 2010 at 8:48 am

    I am still hopeful that Cash has something up his sleeve…I really don’t believe that he didn’t have a few back ups plans, especially as Lee kept dragging his feet.
    ——————————————————-

    There was no clear cut back up plan. We heard that Crawford was plan B but they didn’t even offer him a contract. The plan was Lee and only Lee.

  311. MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 8:53 am

    Kate-

    Glad to hear all that good stuff about the audit beeing over and your son having returned to the nest.

    You sure are the ultimate optimist on Cashman. I’ll give you that.

    For me, believeing in what you said, has gotten long of tooth.

    I hope you are right though. It would be a very pleasant surprise.

    Right now I’d just be happy if AP bailed us out.

    :)

  312. yankee21 December 22nd, 2010 at 8:53 am

    Big Al

    Your 8.10 post is spot on. Cashman/Hal should have blown Lee away with a great offer and then set a date to accept or not accept. Lack of a decision is the same as a no decision, which would have given NYY 2-3 weeks of additional time to move onto other options..

    Hopefully Cashman and Co. learn their lesson.

  313. Against All Odds December 22nd, 2010 at 9:01 am

    Pat M. December 22nd, 2010 at 12:46 am

    Remember after the break in 09, he came back just humming heaters then after 3 starts he just completely unraveled

    —————————–

    That’s when the new rules kicked in. He never rebounded after that

  314. 108 stitches December 22nd, 2010 at 9:22 am

    Talking about Lee and Greinke is a dead subject. We’ll never really know to what extent they were pursued and now it’s of no significance.
    If the season started today, it would have to be hoped that Rothschild worked magic with Burnett and Chamberlain. Nova would be the No. 4 starter and Noesi or Phelps the No. 5 starter, and Mitre the long man in the bullpen.
    Can’t be sure what the status of Ramiro Pena would be but the better bat of Nunez would win out. The extra OF would be either Laird or Golson.
    Once Lee went to Philly, Cashman’s foot dragging started and now he’s thrilled about lowering the payroll and luxury tax.

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