Building a Top 10 rotation
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 22, 2010 
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Over at ESPN.com, Buster Olney has posted his picks for the top 10 rotations in baseball. It’s Insider-only content, so I won’t post the entire list, but it predictably begins with Philadelphia and San Francisco in the top two spots, and it predictably does not include the Yankees.
My question is this: How close are the Yankees to making the list?
Technically, Olney listed 11 rotations, with the Dodgers and White Sox tied for 10th place.
Those two have young No. 1 starters in Clayton Kershaw and John Danks, but right now I’d take CC Sabathia over either of them. Phil Hughes matches up fairly well with Chad Billingsley and Gavin Floyd — you might have a preference, but they’re in the same league — and depending on which version of A.J. Burnett shows up next season, he could matchup with Ted Lilly and Mark Buehrle.* The big difference comes at the back of the rotation, where the Yankees are currently featuring Ivan Nova and that 19-year-old kid from Hank’s Yanks (kidding, but you get the point).
My question is, what could the Yankees do to put themselves in the top 10?
Is Andy Pettitte enough to at least matchup with those two rotations? I’d say no, largely because I still don’t know what Burnett is bringing to the table. Would they become significantly better by adding Pettitte and also plugging a veteran (Kevin Millwood for example) into the No. 5 spot? What if they got Pettitte to come back and also traded for a Fausto Carmona-type? Would that put them comfortably into the top 10?
The Yankees clearly don’t have a top 10 rotation right now, but is it possible to build one before Opening Day?
* Granted, comparing Burnett to Lilly and Buehrle is kind of absurd. Burnett’s value comes in his raw talent and ability to be a dominant pitcher on any given night. Lilly and Buehrle’s value comes in their reliability. In a lot of ways, they’re the anti-Burnett.
Associated Press photo of Hughes
Top 10???!!! Ha…More like mid 20′s at this moment! Other than CC and Hughes its just ugly at the moment.
Great post as usual, Chad.
Chad – the question has one major issue?
Are we talking about what would make a legit Top 10 rotation or an ESPN Top 10 rotation? If we’re talking about ESPN, but the guys we have in Boston uniforms and they’re clearly Top 5.
I think that if Andy comes back the Yankees have a solid rotation – with the exception right now of maybe Philly and Boston I’m not sure there’s any team that’s completely satisfied with its fifth starter spot so if the Yankees went with CC, Hughes, Andy, AJ and let Nova, Phelps, Noesi, etc…battle it out – that’s fine.
For what its worth – one of the best rotations I ever saw (on paper) was when the Mets in 89 had Gooden, Cone, Darling, Fernandez and Frank Viola – that was a dominant, young rotation – and the team only won something like 88 games…so just because Boston and the Phillies on paper have great rotations doesn’t mean they’re destined to win anything.
Of course I don’t expect the Phillies or Red Sox to do as many drugs as that 89 Met club probably did so that could be a problem.
I don’t know where they’d rank preseason but if Pettite comes back then it would be pretty good with the capability to be top 10 or better in actual performance.
It’s king of ridiculous to try and rate the Yankees pitching staff right now considering the fact that it is incomplete. The only way I see Nova and Mitre being the 4th and 5th starters is if the there are injuries and they need to fill the void.
LGY-
I completely agree with you, but I can’t resist posting this blast from Wave’s past:
# Wave Your Hat July 24th, 2010 at 10:40 am
I’d like to see the Yanks get Haren, especially if it could be done for prospects without Joba. Haren is an excellent pitcher, it would be a classic case of “buying low”.
I wouldn’t worry about next year, Haren will be moveable in the off season if the Yanks choose to do that.
There’s a dose of reality for you. If you don’t think the rotation is in shambles today you’re just plugging your fingers in your ears while screaming “la la la la I can’t hear you”.
Our rotation is 2 deep with a massive reclamation project in the 3 spot who no one would be shocked to see go either way next season.
From there the rotation is probably one of the worst back ends in baseball when you include Mitre as the 5.
There’s still time to fix this though and moves are needed to be made.
Standing pat is the worst plan on the table.
Chip,
Why do you still think Andy is a possibility to come back when all indications are he’s done?
Usually, by this time there’s an inkling that he wants back in. We don’t have anything like that.
G. Love-
Forget Mitre. Hopefully the Yanks sign Andy – I still believe he’s coming back – and then rotate through Nova/Phelps/Mitchell/Noesi. At least one of them will pitch as well as anyone you can now pick up in free agency.
The Yankees clearly don’t have a top 10 rotation right now, but is it possible to build one before Opening Day?
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I see one guy possibly available that might make a difference and he’s a very expensive gamble.
I won’t even say his name but it rhymes with Hambrano
Wave,
I hope you’re right about Andy. I really do.
I’m all for letting the 5th spot be a Battle Royale for the young guys.
Just not the 4th and 5th spot and potentially the 3rd spot should AJ not straighten out.
“I won’t even say his name but it rhymes with Hambrano”
But making such a deal would be Lamebraino.
blake December 22nd, 2010 at 2:54 pm
Chip,
You’re assuming that Garcia would want to come to ST and compete against a bunch of minor leaguers. Unless they have been injuired and trying to.work their way back then guys like Garcia and Millwood are going to want a spot in a rotation to sign. I would have no problem with signing him to a one year deal for peanuts just to compete…..if he wins then so be it.
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Blake -
I’m not giving Freddy Garcia more than 1 year and $5 million. And if Andy doesn’t come back then, at least for the start of the season, I probably would give him a spot in the rotation and let the kids fight it out for the final spot.
At least that’s the mindset I would have coming into spring. If something happened though where Garcia wasn’t impressive at all and multiple kids like Brackman and Phelps were just running wild through the Grapefruit League —- well playing time is earned, not given and Freddy would have to deal with a bullpen role.
Wave,
I was with you buddy. Pat M, blake, and Face were big proponents of getting Haren as well.
It is pretty funny. If you look back at the archives at the time, the less panicked lohud posters right now were the ones who were most in favor of getting Haren.
Some of the people that are killing Cashman for not getting it done, were actually against it at the time. Gotta love this place
G. Love December 22nd, 2010 at 3:06 pm
Chip,
Why do you still think Andy is a possibility to come back when all indications are he’s done?
Usually, by this time there’s an inkling that he wants back in. We don’t have anything like that.
————————
Because I’m an optimist.
Frankly, the only reason I am advocating signing Freddy Garcia or trading for a mediocre pitcher like Kyle Davies is because I don’t know if Andy’s coming back and the idea that two kids will be ready to step up and hold down the final two spots in the rotation is a little far-fetched to me.
If I knew (or even felt strongly) that Andy was returning I would say forget Garcia and let the kids battle for the final spot.
But making such a deal would be Lamebraino.
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Nor does it fall in line with Cashman’s new “Attaboy!” payroll philosophy.
But if Girardi and Rothschild were to say “Get him, we’ll make it work” …I’d be on board with that but then again I’m partial to chunky, loose cannon pitchers.
Since some were talking about it in the last thread…
Luxury Tax Revenue Sharing
Guess brackets get stripped out…
Luxury Tax *is not the same as* Revenue Sharing
Bronx Jeers-
I just said that to be clever. I don’t think the Yanks would do such a deal, but I do think there is a real chance that Zambrano will pitch well.
If I recall correctly, the D’Backs wanted:
Nova, McCallister, Joba and David Adams for Haren and the Yankees balked because they didn’t want to include Joba and pick up the money.
Given that I would right now trade Joba for just about any starting pitcher this is quite annoying to me.
I think the core problem to a Zambrano deal is that Zambrano has a no trade clause and has many times said he has no intention of waiving that clause.
G. Love-
Just to be clear, while I do think Andy will come back, I’d rather go with two kids than sign one of the remaining free agent pitchers.
I acknowledge that that road may be rocky, but at this point if Andy doesn’t come back I believe all roads have an approximately equal chance to be rocky, and in such circumstances I’d prefer to err on the side of the kids.
Lol @ “chunky, loose cannon pitchers.” I wisher Boomer wan’t retired…
Chip,
Im with you there. I actually thought you’re beltre comment earlier was.interesting……it’ll never happen but interesting…..
I just disagree with you there Wave.
I think having a veteran starter who could put up 4.50-5.00 ERA and give us 6 innings a game is a better choice than promising the 4&5 spots to kids and or Mitre.
Let the kids beat Garcia/Millwood types out of the rotation, but let’s have them going into the spring for security.
I think right now a viable target is Brett Myers.
The Astros are going to stink this year
They’re up for sale which means Drayton McClane will be looking to pare some money.
I don’t really like Myers as a person – but he’s a good pitcher who would fit nicely into the middle of the rotation.
What would I trade for him you ask? Good question:
Joba and Nunez should be enough to get it done. If they want more they can select from a pupu platter of non-impact minor leaguers along the lines of the infielder they got in the Berkman deal last year.
G. Love December 22nd, 2010 at 3:27 pm
Let the kids beat Garcia/Millwood types out of the rotation, but let’s have them going into the spring for security.
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Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Wave,
I have been a strong advocate and still am of bringing in rotation help. However, I agree if the only options are the Millwood types, I would prefer to go young and see what we have. At least they have a chance to exceed expectations.
Chip,
Lol gotta agree, don’t like Myers as a person. He’s pretty much a dirtbag. But I do think he’s a decent pitcher. IDK why I’m attached to Nunez – i’d prefer not to lose him. But I prob do that deal, yea
austinmac December 22nd, 2010 at 3:29 pm
Wave,
I have been a strong advocate and still am of bringing in rotation help. However, I agree if the only options are the Millwood types, I would prefer to go young and see what we have. At least they have a chance to exceed expectations
——————–
I have no problem with the kids winning rotation spots in spring training or early in the season – but I do have a problem with just handing them rotation spots in spring training.
Like G. Love said, let them beat out a Millwood or a Garcia or a Chris Young.
“Let the kids beat Garcia/Millwood types out of the rotation,”
Sadly, I believe that if a Garcia or a Millwood is signed, the kids won’t be given that opportunity. This is one of the reasons I don’t want the Yanks to sign one.
G. Love,
If you can get Garcia and Millwood to accept cheap deals to come to ST and compete for a job then that’s fine…..but I don’t know if they would. There are other teams out there that need pitching as well.
heyman_sux December 22nd, 2010 at 3:30 pm
Chip,
Lol gotta agree, don’t like Myers as a person. He’s pretty much a dirtbag. But I do think he’s a decent pitcher. IDK why I’m attached to Nunez – i’d prefer not to lose him. But I prob do that deal, yea
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You’re attached to Nunez for the same reason he would likely be included in the deal. He’s a promising young player at a premium position.
He may not be the star prospect the NYY hype-machine has made him out to be, but he should be solid. I would actually have a harder time parting with Nunez than I would Joba the Hutt at this point.
Having said that – if Houston would do Myers for Joba, Nunez and Minor Leaguer X – I will drive Nunez to Houston and program his GPS for him.
G. Love-
Also, again just to be clear, my first preference is for Cashman to pull a rabbit out of his hat. He has done it before.
Wave Your Hat December 22nd, 2010 at 3:31 pm
“Let the kids beat Garcia/Millwood types out of the rotation,”
Sadly, I believe that if a Garcia or a Millwood is signed, the kids won’t be given that opportunity. This is one of the reasons I don’t want the Yanks to sign one.
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It may not happen immediately – but it would happen.
If Garcia was signed, had an acceptable spring and a kid had a good spring, the kid would probably be left in the minors to see if his production was a sign that he’s ready or a sign that he was playing against other players who like him were destined for the minor leagues. But if by June/July you’re seeing that the kid is still pitching very well and Garcia is just getting by – the Yankees would make a change.
I can only imagine how many people on this blog emailed Olney and told him he was crazy and that the Yanks were definitely top 2/3.
For those of you going nuts about Bostons ranking……its more than fair. They are considerably better than us now, and they are still better than us even if Pettitte returns. Its sad, but true. Its deeper and has more top of the rotation type starters with more clearly defined track records of front end stuff.
John Danks would be a very nice pickup for us and its not as outrageous as people think…..would require us to give up some significant pieces, but its not crazy. from chicago paper today.
“3. Keep an eye on the Yankees. They expect to learn soon if Andy Pettitte is going to pitch in 2011. If he does retire, GM Brian Cashman is going to have to step up his efforts to land a starting pitcher. They are talking to Freddy Garcia (who hasn’t been completely ruled out by the White Sox), but will have to go in search of bigger game if they don’t convince Pettitte to return. There was speculation about the Cubs’ Carlos Zambrano last week, but the White Sox have pitchers who could interest the Yankees. Jackson, a free agent after 2011, is the guy the Sox should be most willing to trade, but Gavin Floyd and even John Danks or Mark Buehrle could be in play if the Yankees are motivated enough to offer the good stuff — outfielder/leadoff man Brett Gardner, catcher Jesus Montero or pitching prospects Manny Banuelos and Dellin Betances.
Danks is an interesting case. He’s headed to arbitration as a four-plus player and will be a very expensive proposition if he goes as a five-plus player a year from now. The Sox have tried and failed to sign him to a contract that takes him off the free-agent market after 2012 — although they’re believed to still be trying — and at some point could decide they have to deal him for a younger replacement rather than risk losing Jackson, Buehrle and him in a span of two years.”
“But if by June/July you’re seeing that the kid is still pitching very well and Garcia is just getting by – the Yankees would make a change.”
Maybe yes, maybe no. Experience inclines me to the “maybe no” answer.
The Yankees need to immediately trade for Felix Hernandez. Give them a four-player package of (1) Montero, (2) Joba, (3) Ivan Nova, and (4) a prospect from single A.
Myers was just signed to an extension by the Astros. They aren’t going to deal him.
Chip,
You I agree about Nunez. Also, trading him would prevent Girardi from contuing to refer to him as “Noony”.
I might like it better if somehow they could get Myers+Keppinger.
Wave Your Hat December 22nd, 2010 at 3:40 pm
“But if by June/July you’re seeing that the kid is still pitching very well and Garcia is just getting by – the Yankees would make a change.”
Maybe yes, maybe no. Experience inclines me to the “maybe no” answer.
————————
I can’t give you a starter for starter example but they did dump some veteran relievers to make room for Joba when he was shooting through the system a couple of years ago.
They pushed Womack out of the way to make room for Cano
If you want to go way back – they dumped Roberto Kelly to make room for Bernie Williams
CCBiggs – not nearly enough. Like not even remotely good enough
Jerkface December 22nd, 2010 at 3:41 pm
Myers was just signed to an extension by the Astros. They aren’t going to deal him.
———————–
Things have changed since then – most notably that the Astros have been put up for sale. Teams that are up for sale will generally try to cut their long term commitments to make the franchise more attractive to potential buyers.
heyman_sux December 22nd, 2010 at 3:43 pm
Chip,
You I agree about Nunez. Also, trading him would prevent Girardi from contuing to refer to him as “Noony”.
I might like it better if somehow they could get Myers+Keppinger.
———————
Well Keppinger is a complete throw in so I’m not sure he would impact the deal for me one way or another – but yes; if I could make the trade and still know that I’m not going to have Ramiro Pena on the bench that would be a nice addition.
Chip, suit yourself. But I wouldn’t bet on it.
Danks would be an unbelievable get for the Yanks but the price tag would be very high Id imagine. Don’t see that one right now.
The thinking on Keppinger being that he would essentially take over Nunez’ role. He’s nothing to write home about, but he’s got at least a little bit of pop. More than Pena, tho that means nothing
The thinking on Keppinger being that he would essentially take over Nunez’ role. He’s nothing to write home about, but he’s got at least a little bit of pop. More than Pena, tho that means nothing
blake December 22nd, 2010 at 3:50 pm
Danks would be an unbelievable get for the Yanks but the price tag would be very high Id imagine. Don’t see that one right now.
———————–
Cheap, young, good and on a team that’s hoping to get into the playoffs – nah, I don’t see him being on the market.
# blake December 22nd, 2010 at 3:50 pm
Danks would be an unbelievable get for the Yanks but the price tag would be very high Id imagine. Don’t see that one right now.
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Dont see it either…..but given the path towards free agency Danks seems inclined to take, would kenny Williams hang up on Cashman if he said here, pick 3 from this group:
Nunez
Gardner
Joba
One of the B’s
Adams
Nova
Laird
They should go after Floyd on the White Sox. he is the 2nd most likely to be dealt by the White Sox behind Edwin Jackson.
Myers is only signed for 28 mil over 3 years, incredibly cheap for a starting pitcher. I don’t think they are going to deal him because the owner of the Astros might potentially sell the franchise (at a great profit)
Contentment with mediocrity is not progress at least for the franchise that plays in the Bronx.
Right now, every pitcher beyond C.C. and Phil Hughes comes with a question mark. To pin hopes on Millwood and Garcia types is beyond risky. If the payroll takes precedent over improvement through trading, then it’s time to roll the dice with Noesi, Phelps, Mitchell, and Warren to see who shakes out as a contributor.
I would rather have Danks right now than Cliff Lee when you consider salaries. Danks is 25 years old.
Jerkface December 22nd, 2010 at 3:53 pm
They should go after Floyd on the White Sox. he is the 2nd most likely to be dealt by the White Sox behind Edwin Jackson.
——————————–
What do you think is the difference in players it would take to get:
1) Danks
2) Floyd
3) Jackson
Can the above package I listed for Danks work? Are you taking into account the fact that he will quickly get more expensive and is likely going to leave after 2012?
What are we getting in Gavin Floyd? Are we getting a guy who we can say on day 1 “yes, that guy is considerably better than Ivan Nova”?
I think so, but im not entirely convinced and would go the extra mile for Danks with respect to prospects.
Jerkface December 22nd, 2010 at 3:53 pm
They should go after Floyd on the White Sox. he is the 2nd most likely to be dealt by the White Sox behind Edwin Jackson.
Myers is only signed for 28 mil over 3 years, incredibly cheap for a starting pitcher. I don’t think they are going to deal him because the owner of the Astros might potentially sell the franchise (at a great profit)
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Think about something – if Gavin Floyd is good enough to pitch for the Yankees then why would the White Sox want to move him?
He’s not making much money – he’s young – and they’re a team that is trying to win. If he was good wouldn’t that be the kind of player you would want on your team when you’re trying to win the division?
The Sox don’t have a major hole to fill in their roster that dealing him would accomplish? So maybe it’s a case where the White Sox aren’t convinced he’s part of the solution which makes me wonder why he would be a good fit with the Yankees – you follow?
Id take Garcia before Milwood.
Getting Millwood is like doubling down on AJ.
Myers had himself a pretty good season but that almost never seems to translate over to the AL East. Plus he’s a schmuck.
# Chip December 22nd, 2010 at 3:20 pm
If I recall correctly, the D’Backs wanted:
Nova, McCallister, Joba and David Adams for Haren and the Yankees balked because they didn’t want to include Joba and pick up the money.
Given that I would right now trade Joba for just about any starting pitcher this is quite annoying to me.
—————————————————
Very annoying since all Joba is at the moment is a middle reliever. If he doesn’t become a lights out reliever than why on Earth are they keeping him on the team. He’s not Rivera circa 96.
blake December 22nd, 2010 at 3:55 pm
I would rather have Danks right now than Cliff Lee when you consider salaries. Danks is 25 years old.
—————–
Well yeah, but the White Sox have less motivation to move Danks than Seattle does to move Felix or the Phish have to move Johnson…so why would they do it?
# Bronx Jeers December 22nd, 2010 at 3:58 pm
Id take Garcia before Milwood.
Getting Millwood is like doubling down on AJ.
Myers had himself a pretty good season but that almost never seems to translate over to the AL East. Plus he’s a schmuck.
————————————
Brad Penny is twice the schmuck Myers is.
Carlo,
Joba/One of the B’s/Nova? I’d want Danks…I actually like that he’s only signed thru 2012. If he performs and the Yanks wanna keep him, they have the resources. But yea idk if that’s enough in a trade
# Chip December 22nd, 2010 at 3:59 pm
blake December 22nd, 2010 at 3:55 pm
I would rather have Danks right now than Cliff Lee when you consider salaries. Danks is 25 years old.
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Well yeah, but the White Sox have less motivation to move Danks than Seattle does to move Felix or the Phish have to move Johnson…so why would they do it?
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Chip, thats not entirely correct…..without Danks, the White Sox can still compete…..and if he keeps going to arb and the salaries keep escalating and then they lose him to free agency after 2012, its not completely outrageous for them to consider it.
Carlo December 22nd, 2010 at 4:00 pm
# Bronx Jeers December 22nd, 2010 at 3:58 pm
Id take Garcia before Milwood.
Getting Millwood is like doubling down on AJ.
Myers had himself a pretty good season but that almost never seems to translate over to the AL East. Plus he’s a schmuck.
————————————
Brad Penny is twice the schmuck Myers is.
——————-
One thing Brady Penny has going for him – he dated Alyssa Milano.
Carlo December 22nd, 2010 at 4:01 pm
# Chip December 22nd, 2010 at 3:59 pm
blake December 22nd, 2010 at 3:55 pm
I would rather have Danks right now than Cliff Lee when you consider salaries. Danks is 25 years old.
—————–
Well yeah, but the White Sox have less motivation to move Danks than Seattle does to move Felix or the Phish have to move Johnson…so why would they do it?
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Chip, thats not entirely correct…..without Danks, the White Sox can still compete…..and if he keeps going to arb and the salaries keep escalating and then they lose him to free agency after 2012, its not completely outrageous for them to consider it.
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My guess is that Chicago will probably start talking to Danks’s agent this year about a long term deal; before they would consider moving him.
The guy I think it would make the most sense for Chicago to move is still Jake Peavy.
Against All Odds December 22nd, 2010 at 3:59 pm
# Chip December 22nd, 2010 at 3:20 pm
If I recall correctly, the D’Backs wanted:
Nova, McCallister, Joba and David Adams for Haren and the Yankees balked because they didn’t want to include Joba and pick up the money.
Given that I would right now trade Joba for just about any starting pitcher this is quite annoying to me.
—————————————————
Very annoying since all Joba is at the moment is a middle reliever. If he doesn’t become a lights out reliever than why on Earth are they keeping him on the team. He’s not Rivera circa 96
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My guess is that within two years Joba gets non-tendered.
Very annoying since all Joba is at the moment is a middle reliever. If he doesn’t become a lights out reliever than why on Earth are they keeping him on the team. He’s not Rivera circa 96
———————-
My guess is that within two years Joba gets non-tendered.
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If he’s not traded first.
Chip December 22nd, 2010 at 4:01 pm
One thing Brady Penny has going for him – he dated Alyssa Milano.
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Which is one of the best things he has going for him.
# Chip December 22nd, 2010 at 4:01 pm
Carlo December 22nd, 2010 at 4:00 pm
# Bronx Jeers December 22nd, 2010 at 3:58 pm
Id take Garcia before Milwood.
Getting Millwood is like doubling down on AJ.
Myers had himself a pretty good season but that almost never seems to translate over to the AL East. Plus he’s a schmuck.
————————————
Brad Penny is twice the schmuck Myers is.
——————-
One thing Brady Penny has going for him – he dated Alyssa Milano.
—————
So did Carl pavano…..so who has what going for who now?
Also – on Chicago….they have tried to talk extension with him and he hasnt been receptive.
from chicago paper:
“Danks is an interesting case. He’s headed to arbitration as a four-plus player and will be a very expensive proposition if he goes as a five-plus player a year from now. The Sox have tried and failed to sign him to a contract that takes him off the free-agent market after 2012 — although they’re believed to still be trying — and at some point could decide they have to deal him for a younger replacement rather than risk losing Jackson, Buehrle and him in a span of two years.””
Brad Penny?
The Sox would have a field day teeing off on him. They owe him one for being such a scrub.
Remember 2009 when the lineup were knocking guys off rosters every other week? Good times!
So has Zito, Pavano, and Russell Martin.
all this thinking about adding another starter is interesting , but i still don’t see why joba chamberlain is not getting a chance to compete for the 5th starter job.
as bad as handing some young guy a job is telling some young guy he has no shot at a job. i don’t see the point in this approach by cashman. if joba thought right now that he had a chance to start you’d think that would affect how he prepared for spring training and that he’d train harder.
cashman seems to have thrown in the towel on joba which again makes no sense to me.
i know billy eppler has said joba is a reliever, but seriously, what does eppler know about developing a pitcher? he’s never done it . he’s a scout by training.
i think the yankees are making a huge mistake in not creating a competition for the 5th spot and letting joba compete for that spot.
Chip,
I think the chances of them moving him are remote but id explore it if Kenny Williams will listen.
Carlo
“Danks is an interesting case. He’s headed to arbitration as a four-plus player and will be a very expensive proposition if he goes as a five-plus player a year from now. The Sox have tried and failed to sign him to a contract that takes him off the free-agent market after 2012 — although they’re believed to still be trying — and at some point could decide they have to deal him for a younger replacement rather than risk losing Jackson, Buehrle and him in a span of two years.””
I didn’t know about this – I guess it makes it more possible they could move him. I still have a hard time believing it will be this year though.
The White Sox dumped a lot of money into the team this year, and might try get some flexibility. Edwin Jackson has the best combination of price vs expected performance to equal a trade. He is kind of expensive and not a sure bet to be good. Jake Peavy is both too injured, not very good last year, and incredibly expensive. I don’t think they can deal him.
Floyd has put up a couple of 4 ERAs the last 2 years and makes not a lot of money, but not a pittance either. he has been linked in trade rumors this offseason. (thats where my idea to go after him comes from)
I don’t think Danks gets dealt, he will be their new rotation focus.
blake December 22nd, 2010 at 4:08 pm
Chip,
I think the chances of them moving him are remote but id explore it if Kenny Williams will listen.
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Based on the clip Carlo provided I wouldn’t call it impossible. But in a year when they’re spending big money on Adam Dunn, Jesse Crain, Paul Konerko etc…I have a hard time believing that Williams would look to deal arguably his best pitcher.
# Chip December 22nd, 2010 at 4:04 pm
Against All Odds December 22nd, 2010 at 3:59 pm
# Chip December 22nd, 2010 at 3:20 pm
If I recall correctly, the D’Backs wanted:
Nova, McCallister, Joba and David Adams for Haren and the Yankees balked because they didn’t want to include Joba and pick up the money.
Given that I would right now trade Joba for just about any starting pitcher this is quite annoying to me.
—————————————————
Very annoying since all Joba is at the moment is a middle reliever. If he doesn’t become a lights out reliever than why on Earth are they keeping him on the team. He’s not Rivera circa 96
———————-
My guess is that within two years Joba gets non-tendered.
———————————————————–
Wouldn’t be surprised if he is
Jerkface December 22nd, 2010 at 4:10 pm
The White Sox dumped a lot of money into the team this year, and might try get some flexibility. Edwin Jackson has the best combination of price vs expected performance to equal a trade. He is kind of expensive and not a sure bet to be good. Jake Peavy is both too injured, not very good last year, and incredibly expensive. I don’t think they can deal him.
Floyd has put up a couple of 4 ERAs the last 2 years and makes not a lot of money, but not a pittance either. he has been linked in trade rumors this offseason. (thats where my idea to go after him comes from)
I don’t think Danks gets dealt, he will be their new rotation focus.
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I’m not saying your Gavin Floyd comment is without basis – I know that the White Sox have been looking to move him – my question is more about why the Yankees would be interested for all the reasons I said above.
I would stay as far away from Edwin Jackson as Joba Chamberlain does from a salad…if you subtract the first half of his season with Detroit he has never been anything short of awful. I still can’t believe Arizona gave up Max Scherzer to get him and Ian Kennedy.
I don’t think Millwood is as much of a waste as some of you do.
Last year he threw 190 innings and started 31 games. He averaged more than 6 innings per start. He even threw a complete game last year.
The year prior to that in Texas he had a 3.67 ERA, threw 3 complete games and 198 innings in 31 starts.
He goes deep into games. He also wouldn’t be pitching in Baltimore and he have a better pen backing him up.
He’s not an Ace. But as a 4-5 in this rotation he fits and helps the team not burn out the pen before the season really begins.
He also doesn’t walk the ball park. He just gives up more than a hit per inning.
He’s not trash. He could work here if Andy isn’t returning and we need a vet that doesn’t cost a prospect.
Remember 2009 when the lineup were knocking guys off rosters every other week? Good times
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ANd yet with all of cashman’s low risk high reward signings this offseason that is exactly what will happen with the yankee rotation in 2011
Randy
Telling a kid he has a shot at the rotation 2 years in a row when he doesn’t really could be even worse.
They told Joba he is a reliever and he should prepare as such. If they told him now he can compete for the 5th spot and then they predictably tell him he lost again because they don’t want him starting is messing with him more IMO
G. Love,
The issue I have with Millwood is that the 3.67 he posted two years ago in Texas looks out of place given that in 3 of the last 4 years his ERA has been 5 or above.
True, he doesn’t walk the park but he does give up a lot of hits (over 10 hits per 9 innings 3 of the last four years)
So maybe it’s a case where the White Sox aren’t convinced he’s part of the solution which makes me wonder why he would be a good fit with the Yankees – you follow?
–
Maybe they look at his 4 ERA and think they can get someone comparable for cheaper? Or they can get some prospects? Maybe they’d be fine going with Nova + some younger guys for Floyd, thinking they’ll get close to Floyd’s production from Nova with a potential better pitcher coming up?
Floyd put up two 4 ERAs the last two years but his peripherals are very good. He is a kind of ground ball pitcher, strikes out more than the average, doesn’t walk alot. The White Sox have already done trades where I think its clear they aren’t all about stats or expected performance. Maybe they see Floyd as a guy that gives up too many hits and is going down hill but a smarter organization would jump on him? Ala Swisher.
All I know is, Floyd will pitch a better season than anyone the Yankees throw out in the 4 or 5 spot next year. If they could convince the White Sox to deal him, they should be all over it.
Kenny Williams is tough to pin down though.
Floyd would be a very nice get. There was a stretch from early June through late August where he had like a 1.7 ERA or something. Still young, doesn’t make a lot of $$$.
I would gamble on Peavy too if he came cheaply.
Montero and Brackman for Danks?
2010 stats:
Floyd : 151 SO/58 BB
Hughes: 146 SO/58 BB
Floyd: 14 HR
Hughes 25 HR
Floyd: 187IP/199H
Hughes: 176IP/162H
Floyd: 1.372 WHIP
Hughes: 1.248 WHIP
Except for the W-L line, not a great disparity between Floyd and our current number 2 All Star. Given the other options, I like this one at reasonable trade cost.
Chip,
If you look at Millwoods baseball reference page and take out his starts against the Yankees last season he looks like a pretty decent pitcher. The Yankees in 3 starts in June bludgeoned him and sent his ERA into the 5′s. The rest of the season he lowered it.
He wasn’t horrid against Boston and TB either. Kept the team in the game against both of them.
LGY December 22nd, 2010 at 4:20 pm
Randy
Telling a kid he has a shot at the rotation 2 years in a row when he doesn’t really could be even worse.
They told Joba he is a reliever and he should prepare as such. If they told him now he can compete for the 5th spot and then they predictably tell him he lost again because they don’t want him starting is messing with him more IMO
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The competition between Joba and Hughes wasn’t a real competition IMO. When Joba showed up heavy and looking as if he hadn’t really worked at all during the winter and Hughes came in looking like he had, I think that pretty much clinched it for Phil given that the two are (or were) talent-wise, considered on even footing.
On the other hand, if Joba showed up this spring, in shape, motivated, and showed he had spent the winter working on the things that the Yankees cited for why he lost to Phil last year, then I think there’s way he doesn’t beat out guys like Nova or Noesi for the fifth spot.
Joba had the talent to be a top of the rotation starter – Nova and Noesi are nice back end guys – but nowhere near that dominant. If the Yankees came to spring training and saw the Joba Chamberlain who dominated his way through the minors in 2007 he would leave Tampa as the fifth starter.
Whether it’s a result of the shoulder injury that shut him down in 08 or just lack of work ethic, I don’t think we’re ever going to see that guy again though.
oops – messed up the quotes – second quote shouldn’t be there…
I’d take any of the 5 White Sox starters…. Buerhle, Danks, Floyd, Peavy, E-Jax.
Rosy-
Love having you here but could you do us favor and lose the GIANT quotation marks please.
Thanks.
I don’t think Danks gets traded either, but if I am calling Kenny Williams he is the guy I am calling about. Floyd/Jackson don’t excite me and if we’re going to be asked to overpay regardless of who we inquire on, then aim high.
“I go to sleep every night hoping that Andy Pettitte makes his decision to come back and pitch another year,” Yankees team president Randy Levine said Wednesday on 1050 ESPN New York. “That is his decision. He has not made a decision to retire. He has not made a decision to come back.
“He is with his family. Hopefully, over the holidays he will come to peace with whatever his decision is and knowing Andy, he will give it a lot of thought. He has a big heart. There is no bigger Yankee than him. Let’s just hope he wakes up one day in the next couple of weeks and says, ‘I want to pitch for the New York Yankees.’ ”
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-.....id=5947640
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play......id=2831637
watch this Joba video.
At the end you will see the blind lady from hope week
One final thing on Millwood I found interesting looking at his last year.
In only 1 start did he go less than 5 innings last season. 1 start he spit the bit early on and he was pitching for the O’s people.
AJ Burnett failed to go 5 innings in 10 starts last year. Hughes failed to go 5 innings in 3 games last year. Vasquez 9 times failed to go 5 innings. CC just once.
Rosy
What is your purpose being on this blog? You are a Mariners “fan” and yet all you seem to do on here is antagonize Yankees fans and portray the Mariners to be a good organization. If Felix Hernandez had any brains, he would demand a trade from that awful organization to the Red Sox and go to a real city with real fans. Jose Iglesias, along with a couple other scrubs, should be enough to get Felix
I would love the Yankees to acquire a White Sox pitcher, it just does not seem like any are available at the moment. Even Peavy would do bc of his potential.
There is a reason why the Mariners have never won anything and will never win anything. They dont have an owner that wants to win like Henry, the Steinbrenners. The Mariners are content with failure…because they do not have any fans worth caring about.
FWIW to you all, I am a Red Sox fan with enormous respect for the Yankees. If Felix demanded a trade to the Yankees, it would also show great intelligence on his part. Yankees are a great organization, the best, with great fans.
If the payroll was $292 million, do you think they would be able to crack the top ten?
I really doubt Cash would be willing to give up what it would take to get one of the W.Sox pitchers. Kenny Williams is going to want a ton for his guys.
Also, the Mariners will not “FLYYYYYY AWAY” this year, hahaha
Rosy,
What I want to know is how you make those gorgeous quote signs. Don’t listen to these guys; having a little fun here is what it is all about. You aren’t the least bit antagonistic. If you did it all day and night, I might object.
Enjoy having you aboard. After all you too should have to read the same stuff over and over all day like some of us have to do.
MTU ~
Sorry about the giant quotes. When used properly (which I didn’t do in my last post) seems like they are a good way to distinguish a quote within a post. But, I believe in being a good guest, so I’ll try some other means
btw ~ earlier today I posed a question to you – forgive me if I missed the answer…
What?s not smart about Jack Z trying to swap a closer coming up for an arbitration raise (he posted 31 saves for a team that only won 61 games) for a sorely needed bat? Especially considering the depth of young arms on the farm?
Rosy’s only purpose here is to tell us that the Yankees should not be able to get this player or that player for whatever it is that they want. To tell us that the Mariners are a great organization with a bright future. To tell how us great Felix is and how he should not be traded to the Yankees for anything. Why does Rosy not come to one of our sites like SOSH and tell us Red Sox fans that? Maybe Rosy has some bitterness towards an organization that has 27 more World Championships than her team, a team that will never win one.
Rosy,
I see you are quoting yourself now.
Count me as one glad you are here despite your team of preference. Wouldn’t the world be boring if we all were for the same team?
it is not about Rosy cheering a different team. I am a Red Sox fan, but I would not come on here and taunt you fans. Sports are fun, and taunting the opposing fans is worthless. If that is what you enjoy – to be taunted by a Mariners “fan” – then who am i to object.
SAS ~
Thanks for your kind words.
I have my favorite Mariners board (which has a weath of info along with some very knowledgeable and passionate fans) but there are a few choice “rival” sites I enjoy visiting to get a different perspective on the rival as well as on my own team (I’m a regular on an Angels board as well).
oh, and the quote signs …
type the word blockquote with tags (greater than/less than symbols) then on the next line paste the quote, then on the next line type the word blockquote again, but be sure to close the tag with a forward slash.
The Yankees don’t even have a top 20 rotation, nevermind top 10. They’ve got one great pitcher……
Betsy
The Yankees rotation – with Pettitte is still a top 10 rotation. AJ Burnett could turn things around and be a valuable number 4 starter. CC and Phil are an excellent one-two and Pettitte is a very good three.
Randy, Joba had better be training hard because he’s being paid a lot of $$$ to do his job. If he can’t get his behind in gear because he’s currently a reliever, I’d like him off the team ASAP.
One hundred, I don’t think so off-hand, but then again, I really only think CC is completely reliable at this point. If Andy comes back, remember he’s 39 and we don’t know if he can duplicate his 2010 or if he’ll even stay healthy.
How do the Yankees get a top-10 rotation???
A nice start would be replacing our sorry lazy-@$$ sack-of-$#!T GM with somebody who cares enough to actually DO something…
Maybe find somebody more concerned about doing their job than roping down buildings.
LGY, there’s that, too – I agree.
GLove, agreed about Milwood. Imagine the beating this pen is going to take with two kids in the rotation………
“Whether it’s a result of the shoulder injury that shut him down in 08 or just lack of work ethic, I don’t think we’re ever going to see that guy again though.”
i think cashman and eppler have simply given up on him much the way cashman gave up on wang behind the scenes.
giving up on a prospect who hasn’t pitched year 25 yet and already has 43 mlb starts really should get cashman fired.
i don’t know what his problem is with joba , but it’s becoming obvious he has no intention of even trying to get joba back on course as a starter.
to me that’s inexcusable. if anyone wants to know the problem with yankee pitching, look no further than cashman because he’s continuing to make bad decisions with joba as with others.
the kid had what, 90 inning in the minors.
give me a break.
that’s simple incompetency for a gm.
cashman’s youth program- throw them in the deep end.
if they swim great, if they don’t they drown.
Rosy-
Thanks for considering my request.
Please don’t take it as a sign that I do not enjoy you posting here cause I do.
You are polite and knowledgeable.
As to your question about Jack Z.
What I meant was in response to Chip talking about Aardsma for an impact bat.
IMO Aardsma is not good enough to bring back an “impact bat” in trade so I took a swipe at Jack Z.
I must also be honest with you and tell you that I am not a very big fan of Mr. Z to begin with so that is my bias.
But he actually may have done us a favor by not trading Lee to us for the Montero package.
Hope that helps.
Levine and the Yankees are sooooo desperate, lol
Speaking of rivals…
If you scroll down near the bottom of the post linked below, you’ll see an interesting photo I took at the Niehaus memorial a couple weeks ago. A Yankee fan and a Red Sox fan seated together in front of me for the entire ceremony…
http://tinyurl.com/33mfro9
Seems there are some things that transcend specific fandom.
Betsy,
“Beating” would be putting it kindly. Joba, Robertsen and Logan would be asked to go 2 innings so much they would not be able to be effective after the ASB.
MTU ~
gotcha.
Considering recent events and your fandom, your position is quite reasonable.
Based upon my fandom, I reserve the right to disagree
Rosy-
That’s quite a website you have.
Great work.
I remember your heartfelt tribute to the loss of someone like the Mariner’s announcer ? It too was beautifully done.
I think you are right, Betsy. The rotation is filled with question marks and uncertainty. When all is said and done, however, I think the Yankees may have one of the best rotations in baseball. Things are not always as they appear.
The Mariners are, though, as they appear. A putrid franchise with no hope and no future.
__
The reason Cashman is not trading for someone is because the Yankees are desperate for starting pitching and everyone knows it. Cashman prefers to deal from a position of strength rather than one of weakness. If Cashman makes a trade out of desperation, he and the Yankees will be getting the short end of the stick.
The rotation is a top 10 rotation if/when AJ Burnett is firmly entrenched as the #5 starter. If AJ is counted on to be anything north of that, then we simply can’t be a top 10 rotation.
Rosy,
Those quotation signs are much too complicated for an old lady like me…thanks anyway.
It will be quite enjoyable to not have to hear “FLY AWAY” any longer. That puts a smile on this face
Rosy-
That’s fine with me. I never mind a polite and respectful disagreement.
I guess the proof will be wether or not Aardsma actually brings back the kind of “impact” bat your team seeks.
Best of luck with that.
SAS ~
Oh, come on, you’re never too old to learn new tricks
(btw, I’m no spring chicken myself… will be celebrating my 50th at Safeco Field next month)
The Yankees clearly don’t have a top 10 rotation right now? Really? Besides Pettitte, who was hurt for most of last year, this is the same rotation that took us to the ALCS. Where did San Francisco’s rotation rank at this point last year? Everybody needs to stop panicking.
“The rotation is a top 10 rotation if/when AJ Burnett is firmly entrenched as the #5 starter. If AJ is counted on to be anything north of that, then we simply can’t be a top 10 rotation.”
Which is what would have happened if they had signed Lee.
Remember when we were talking about how Burnett will be the best/most expensive #5 starter in baseball next year? Good times…
Now Cash said he needs him to get back to a front-end guy. Good luck with that…
CC and Hughes–then sing the blues.
GLove, the Scranton Shuttle had better be at the ready because we will be seeing many different arms this year………………
Rosy – happy 50th. That should be nice to celebrate at safeco. Some of the best moments in that park tend to happen between november and march.
If Andy does not return, I think I would be pretty satisfied with Gavin Floyd, if he doesn’t cost too much in prospects. Danks would be nice but even if he might be moved, I think he would cost too much.
Having two spots up for grabs for Nova + others and not knowing what you are going to get from Burnett is possibly a recipe for 3rd of 4th place. I like watching young rookies as much as anyone, but 1 in the rotation is enough.
“If Cashman makes a trade out of desperation, he and the Yankees will be getting the short end of the stick.”
so put joba in the rotation and then the yankees don’t look so desperate.
one reason that joba’s trade value has plummeted is that cashman bad mouths him by saying he’s just a reliever.
why say that? it makes no sense.
If Cash keeps hugging all of his prospects his team will be in 3rd place next year. But he is too busy being excited with how low his payroll is. It’s so low because the team only has 3 staters and 1 has major issues. Last year he signed 4 NL players, wasted money and all of them didn’t have any business being on team. This year he is just sitting on his wallet. Great job 2 years in a row.
Middletownkevin – the rotation last year was good for about 3 months…..post the ASB, we were 13th in the AL in ERA as a staff. Pettitte was a huge part of that rotation. I don’t see how “we made it to the alcs” translates into “we have a top 10 staff”. We didn’t last year, and its not improved.
“Atta boy” – I can’t get past that.
MTU ~
Thanks for the compliment on the site – it’s truly a labor of love (someone’s gotta love the poor little M’s, right?). Just wish I could find the time to be a bit more prolific with my writing … someday.
As for “the DA” and what he’ll be able to bring …
‘t will be interesting to see. Jack was able to get a pretty good haul for Putz, et al (including our current starting CF and a MOR guy and some other propects that have since been flipped – one just recently for our possible starting SS)
“The Yankees clearly don’t have a top 10 rotation right now? Really? Besides Pettitte, who was hurt for most of last year, this is the same rotation that took us to the ALCS. ”
They were a .500 team from August on. They went 9-17 in September. With that rotation minus Pettitte. They were fine in the short term without him, but as time went on, his absence hurt badly. Especially CC – who had to pitch well and go deep every time because no one else could be counted upon, and he was predictably burned out in the playoffs.
randy l
I agree. Cashman saying that about Joba makes no sense at all. When Cashman disputes what Girardi says re: injuries and such, it makes the Yankees look like fools, and I think Cashman is at fault for that also. Problem is, everyone around the league already views Joba as a failed starter and an average reliever, and with everything that Cashman has said about Joba, there is no turning back the clock or putting on the facade that Joba is in the rotation.
Betsy
It was “atta baby” and I cannot get past that either. I wonder if Cashman will be as excited at the Yankees lowering of payroll if the Yankees fail to make the postseason next year. He could have blown Lee out of the water with a cant-turn-down deal, but he was busy pinching the owners’ pennies.
Onehundred, I’m not blaming Cashman for Lee at all……….it was just a ridiculous comment
the simplest cheapest way to get a starter is to put joba in the rotation.
no this isn’t ideal. but rushing youngsters or trading off strengths in other places like gardner or swisher isn’t ideal either.
if the yankees have even one starter go down in the spring they are deep doo doo because you can’t trade for anyone then.
if joba prepares as a starter and they don’t need him or he doesn’t do well enough it’s no big deal to then go to the bullpen.
i see no downside to preparing joba as a starter.
Betsy
I did not think you were blaming Cashman for Lee. I was putting forth my own view. I do agree with you that the “atta baby” comment was absurd.
Problem is, everyone around the league already views Joba as a failed starter and an average reliever, and with everything that Cashman has said about Joba, there is no turning back the clock or putting on the facade that Joba is in the rotation.
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I doubt the majority of other teams are stupid enough to see Joba as a failed starter and/or an average reliever. But they are smart enough to realize his value IS low right now. But I can guarantee that if we’re in the rumors for any big time trade over the season Joba’s name will pop up.
randy l
I agree with your view on Joba. Cashman ought to say to Joba “sink or swim.” You’re in the rotation.
It doesn’t matter who’s in the Top 10 now, what matters is where teams stack up at mid-season. I think the Yankees will be highly ranked by then because of the emergence of Hughes and at least one of their pitching prospects.
I think Cash was merely trying to find solace in the fact that they lost out on Lee and all their other targets. They didn’t improve the team, but at least their payroll is now significantly lower and it gives him an opportunity to prove he doesn’t need to have the highest payroll to win.
” with everything that Cashman has said about Joba, there is no turning back the clock or putting on the facade that Joba is in the rotation.”
onehundredareneuf -
i wouldn’t be shocked to see joba go into the rotation and pitch to a 4.5 era for the first few months.
that would build his reputation back up enough for teams to look at him as a potential valuable trade possibility. he’s only 25.
joba can pitch in the low nineties and win if he uses all his pitches. he needs some firm guiding to do this , but it could be done.
the first thing rothschild should do after visiting burnett is visiting joba and spend a week with him too. they need to rethink joba.
the yankees are in no position to throw in the towel on a potential good starter.
Dont kid yourself. Cashman wasnt trying to find solace that the Yankees have more flexibility with a lower payroll and anything of the kind.
The 2011 free agent class is less than the free agent class of this year.
Speaking from personal knowledge, Cashman genuinely would like to win with a lower payroll.
As if the amount our payroll is at matters when we win.
“It doesn’t matter who’s in the Top 10 now, what matters is where teams stack up at mid-season. I think the Yankees will be highly ranked by then because of the emergence of Hughes and at least one of their pitching prospects.”
I agree as I’m sick and tired of hearing about Joba in the rotation argument.
randy l.
I agree again re: Joba. Joba should be in the rotation, for better or worse. Let him receive guidance from Larry and see what happens. Joba has been mismanaged by the organization the entire time, and leaving him in the bullpen would be another form of mismanagement.
Mike Axia’s view on David Phelps.
http://riveraveblues.com/2010/.....lps-40308/
If someone had told you at the end of the 2007 season that this is where Joba would be in December 2010 would anyone have believed it?
The whole Joba thing has been really disappointing.
“I agree as I’m sick and tired of hearing about Joba in the rotation argument.”
what’s the downside of letting joba compete for the fifth starter job?
conversely, what’s the upside of saying he’s just a reliever?
Tin Cup….Last night I brought up how 2 years ago after the signing of CC & AJ, the 2011 rotation was to be CC, Wang, Hughes Joba and AJ goinginto this season……The of course was the Wang debacle and then Joba is a lost commodity in the bullpen and so we have this mess…..The theme was how the Yanks mis-manage the pitchers at times……
Various reports are heard in this offseason such as the minor rehabs of C.C. and Gardner, the always rigorous training regimen A-Rod does every year and no hip problems, Swisher’s knee back to normal, and Mariano ready to start his light throwing program like in every year.
No mention of how hard Chamberlain is working to show up in top physical for early workouts in Tampa or asking if he can be considered as a starter once again or a strong quest to be the EIG.
Gb,
Pretty good summary on Phelps. If he gets a chance I think he could surprise some people.
# 108 stitches December 22nd, 2010 at 6:31 pm
Various reports are heard in this offseason such as the minor rehabs of C.C. and Gardner, the always rigorous training regimen A-Rod does every year and no hip problems, Swisher’s knee back to normal, and Mariano ready to start his light throwing program like in every year.
No mention of how hard Chamberlain is working to show up in top physical for early workouts in Tampa or asking if he can be considered as a starter once again or a strong quest to be the EIG.
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maybe he’s trying to get traded
Pat M.
I forgot about Wang. I thought he was going to be a big part of the future. In some respects he’s even more disappointing than Joba because we all saw him perform at a very high level for sustained period of time.
AJ, Joba, Wang…the Yanks got to this place in lots of ways.