Crasnick: Yankees have shown interest in Jeff Francis
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 22, 2010 
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According to Jerry Crasnick, the Yankees are among the teams that have checked on left-handed starter Jeff Francis.
In a free agent market that’s thin on rotation options, a risk-reward candidate like Francis might make some sense. It would be hard to count on him as a sure-thing, back-of-the-rotation starter, but he had some good years with the Rockies before shoulder problems started to kick in. If he’s healthy, he could help.
Of course, as with every Yankees rumor this winter, it’s hard to know whether the Yankees have real interest in Francis, or whether he’s simply part of Brian Cashman’s wide net.
Chip December 22nd, 2010 at 10:48 am
Bret The Hitman December 22nd, 2010 at 10:43 am
Chip,
The point is, you can’t do (virtually) nothing of immediate consequence 3 years straight and expect to survive in a cut throat business where your company is valued at over 1 billion dollars. There is merit in long term planning, sure. I’m all for it. But 3 years is an eternity in NY.
——————–
Bret,
Spending good money on bad players doesn’t make you a better team – it just makes you the Mets
Dear Brian Cashman,
Why no interest show throughout this entire process on Brandon Webb. He only wants a 1 year contract and can be had for cheap. He also is just a few years removed from his Cy Young year. Seems to make sense…
Love,
Loyal and Diehard Yankee fan – andynatNYY
andynatNYY December 22nd, 2010 at 10:50 am
Dear Brian Cashman,
Why no interest show throughout this entire process on Brandon Webb. He only wants a 1 year contract and can be had for cheap. He also is just a few years removed from his Cy Young year. Seems to make sense…
—————–
Because he’s been hurt for two years straight and is only throwing the ball at 82mph which will result in him being creamed in the AL.
Cashman’s net?:
http://home.bluemarble.net/~niceguy/minnows.htm
andynatNYY – webb hasn’t touched 85mph since his surgury. I can throw that hard.
YankeesWFAN Pettitte leans toward retirement but has spoken of not wanting to regret walking away. Still a competitive desire in him.
YankeesWFAN Pettitte may not pitch as well as last yr again. But there has to be a part of him that wants to try, only 5 months removed from ASG.
I believe the Yanks are trying to align themselves for life after Posada & an everyday SS/3B duo of Jeter & ARod.
In order to do this I think they will try to get Nunez & Laird playing time at SS & 3b. I expect both to start 25 games at SS/3B and get additional time at 1B/2B. I think Laird will even get time at both corner OF spots probably starting 15 games in LF & another 15 in RF. Nunez & Golson are great options for a SB/PR. The Yanks need these guys especially Nunez & Laird to be successful and they have the tools to do it.
Chip —
Whats your take on Derek Lowe ? is it worth exploring ?
Chip,
Cashman failed to pull the trigger on plenty of good players over the past 3 seasons: Matt Holliday, Aroldis Chapman, Carl Crawford, Danny Haren, Zack Greinke.
Those guys aren’t all big free agents.
The fact that he couldn’t buy his way out and get Cliff Lee to bail him out has exposed him.
edit: past 2 seasons
I don’t understand how a different GM would have done a better job this off season for the NYY? Big moves were made by other teams that had holes they needed to fill. Making moves for the sake of making them is what bad GM’s do just to appease the fan base. An example of this is Crawford, I think the sox made a bad move there. Spending that kind of $ on a non power, selfish/me me guy that hits 50 points lower in his new home park is a mistake, they did it because NESN ratings were the lowest they’ve been in years. They even slipped to 3rd or 4th in Boston behind the other teams, they were desperate.
Coming off a WS winning team in 09, the last thing I would want to do is fire Cashman, look at the farm he’s been over seeing and how well the kids have been playing when called upon.
People just like to have a scapegoat when things don’t go as well as they like or as they planned.
Get over Lee and Greinke, neither wanted to come here, I don’t care if Jesus himself was the GM. Be happy that you have a top 5 team to enjoy in ’11, they’re not going anywhere and the kids will contribute, book it. If there is a need he will make a move in July ala Abreu/Lidle in 06.
Interestingly, mlb network recently gave out their year end awards. One category was best GM. There were 10 candidates, including Cashman, and NOT including Theo.
Mike Ri December 22nd, 2010 at 10:53 am
Chip —
Whats your take on Derek Lowe ? is it worth exploring ?
——————-
Sure. I wouldn’t give up much for him given his contract, but possibly something similar to what they gave up for Javy last year.
good job tyanksfan!!!
I would rather give the youngens a shot (Noesi/Phelps/Nova/Warren/B’s, depending on whose ready) than Francis. C’mon now.
thanks Chip
Why do so many people assume 2 things.
1. That Rafael Soriano will be as effective or even effective at all 3-4 years from now? He will be 34-35 three to four years from now. Relievers do not have long shelf lives.
2. This is Mo’s last contract.
YankeesWFAN Then again at this stage the body tells you what your mind and heart don’t want to hear. The groin injury might just be beginning of the end
YankeesWFAN And no, I don’t think a mid-season Clemens-like return is something Pettitte or the Yanks want to revisit. In or out, that’s it.
Bret The Hitman December 22nd, 2010 at 10:53 am
Chip,
Cashman failed to pull the trigger on plenty of good players over the past 3 seasons: Matt Holliday, Aroldis Chapman, Carl Crawford, Danny Haren, Zack Greinke.
Those guys aren’t all big free agents.
The fact that he couldn’t buy his way out and get Cliff Lee to bail him out has exposed him.
———————–
Holliday – Cashman used the money that he would’ve spent on Holliday a year earlier getting Tex, CC and AJ – which resulted in a championship
Crawford – he had no interest in Crawford because he’s got a solid OF. Why would he spend $120 mil on improving a place he’s already strong
Haren – The D’backs wanted more than Cashman was willing to pay
Greinke – same as Haren but with the added note that Cashman’s not sure Greinke would perform well in New York. I don’t know about you but I’m in no rush to trade two of the system’s best prospects for a guy who could well be Ed Whitson Jr.
Aroldis Chapman – has spent a grand total of 2 months in the majors. Let’s hold off on calling him “the one who got away” just yet. As of right now he’s a reliever who walks 5 guys per 9 innings.
Just thought I’d look at the rotations in the AL East if today were opening day…
boston: Lester 19-9, Buchholz 17-7, Lackey 14-11, Beckett 6-6, Dice-K 9-6, Wakefield 4-10
Tampa Bay: Price 19-6, Garza 15-10, Shields 13-15, Davis 12-10, Niemann 12-8
Toronto: Romero 14-9, Cecil 15-7, Villanueva 2-0, Rzepczynski 4-4, Drabek 0-3
Baltimore: Guthrie 11-14, Matusz 10-12, Bergesen 8-12, Tillman 2-5, Arrieta 6-6
Yankees: CC 21-7, Hughes 18-8, Burnett 10-15, Mitre 0-3, Nova 1-2
Yeah, I’d say there’s a major drop off after CC and Hughes, but Burnett could reverse his numbers or do even better (he did win 18 games in 2008).
To be fair, Nova’s starts were limited, so he may be capable of double digit wins, and Mitre hasn’t pitched an entire season as a starter (nor do I want him to) for quite some time.
Cashman needs to add that veteran #4 starter.
Chip,
You can make excuses all day long but the fact is there is risk involved in every player. If you take zero risks, you don’t improve.
Next offseason will mark year #3 without a significant acquisition aside from the Granderson trade.
He won’t survive this.
If Pettitte returns…he has a fighting chance though.
Greinke – same as Haren but with the added note that Cashman’s not sure Greinke would perform well in New York. I don’t know about you but I’m in no rush to trade two of the system’s best prospects for a guy who could well be Ed Whitson Jr.
—————————————————————————————–
“At the meetings the Yanks learned the full extent of what Kansas City would need to complete a deal [for Zack Greinke]. The Royals wanted catcher Jesus Montero, shortstop Eduardo Nunez and either Dellin Betances or Manuel Banuelos. The sides did not get further than that in discussions, but the Royals also said tjeu would need a fourth piece, another pitcher. Kansas City liked the Triple A-level arms such as Hector Noesi, Ivan Nova, Adam Warren and David Phelps.”
Wow! Jesus, Nunez, Betances/ManBam and Noesi/Nova.
I want Greinke, but that’s too much to pay.
h/t: http://www.theyankeeu.com/
Mike -
The problem with a Derek Lowe trade is that the Yankees right now don’t have a Melky Cabrera to include.
By that I mean a young player who isn’t really a starter but could be. Gardner’s too good, Golson’s not good enough.
Maybe you do something like Ivan Nova and a couple of minor leaguers for Lowe and take back the contract of Nate McLouth too?
Thanks Kate. I really try to get the best grades, this was actually the first semester since being at USF that I got a B and I ended up with 3 of them. I’ve got to try harder next semester to get more A’s so I can graduate with a gpa over 3.5 which would mean a lot.
Bret The Hitman December 22nd, 2010 at 11:04 am
Chip,
You can make excuses all day long but the fact is there is risk involved in every player. If you take zero risks, you don’t improve.
Next offseason will mark year #3 without a significant acquisition aside from the Granderson trade.
He won’t survive this.
If Pettitte returns…he has a fighting chance though.
—————————
1. You don’t know that he won’t make an addition via trade or FA next year.
2. You don’t know that one of the players he didn’t trade: Montero, Brackman, Betances, etc…won’t be a significant addition themselves.
If the Yankees traded Montero, Nunez, Betances and Warren for Greinke, and Zack came here and self destructed while Montero was hitting bomb after bomb in KC, and then next year Dellin Betances was wiping people out on the mound – you would be leading the charge to run Cashman out of town.
Just like passing on Johan – sometimes the best moves are the ones you don’t make.
Chip – - yeah I was just thinking of who the Braves would want . . I’m a little hesitant giving up Nova. . because i don’t want to subtract from our starting rotation. . even more so if Pettite retires.
Hopefully two or three prospects and taking on his Salary would do the job.
I like Lowe..
Where we may have missed out on Crawford by waiting for Lee, I doubt they would sign him to a better contract than Boston gave him. We already know how it is to be stuck with a guy on a huge contract past his prime and I doubt they would be willing to do that again especially when out outfield isn’t even a problem.
Bret,
What are you talking about?
2008: Marte (trade)
2009: CC, Burnett, Tex (FAs), and Swisher (trade)
2010: Granderson & Logan (trades)
Seems pretty significant to me.
REPOST
AldotheApache says:
December 22, 2010 at 11:09 am
Ok, I think I get how this works now.
It’s the holidays. Some of us want the shiniest new toys available out there, and if we don’t get it (Lee, Greinke, Crawford), then it doesn’t much matter the slew of “shiny toys” we ALREADY have, we’re gonna pout and pitch a fit (”Cashman should/will be fired”).
Me? I think I’ll wait to see how the season plays out. I think I’ll choose to not forget we were celebrating a World Championship only 12 months ago WITH CASHMAN AS GM. And I think I’m going to be quite excited at the prospects of (not in order of importance) -
AJ’s season of redemption
Gardner’s healed wrist
Montero’s rookie season
Jeter on a mission
Granderson hitting all season the way he did after the KLong sessions late last season
Posada’s full season of power and production from not having to don catching gear, except in the case of injury or emergency
Seeing which young arm(s) stand(s) out this spring
One more season of watching the best infield in baseball
I could go on, but I won’t. Me and my rose-colored glasses, when will I learn?
Bret – he IS taking on risk to improve. Gambling on the farm system. Still hard to argue with the free agent non-signings. A lot of them just wouldnt have made sense.
Oh Christ – another low risk high reward player!!! When the bleep did this team turn into the motherbleeping pirates…..
Holliday – That money was used to buy CC/Tex/AJ and win a world series.
Greinke – DID NOT WANT TO BE A YANKEE. Cash had a deal on the table last summer that the Royals accepted and Greinke shot it down.
Crawford – Are you serious? Boston overpaid him by at LEAST $30mil, and I find it hard to believe that you of all people wouldn’t be complaining about the gross overpay if it was the Cashman that made that deal.
Haren – Another player that would have to be acquired by overpaying.
Chapman – You can’t fail on making an impact signing for a player that has yet to make an impact in the league.
Bret – So you would have preferred those 5 bad deals, rather than where they are now. Interesting. You talk about risk/reward, but have no idea how to follow through on the concept.
Aldo – You left out Teixeira’s not broken wrist and not broken foot.
For Derek Lowe I’d trade Brandon Laird and Romulo Sanchez.
Chip,
1)Which FA next year? There are no pitchers available.
1a)Which staring pitcher via trade? There’s nobody better than Greinke available. Top shelf pitchers who could slot in #2 behind CC are locked up. Who do you think is even close to getting moved within 1 year’s time and why?
2)We’ve discussed this point. Why do you do that? I’m not going to repeat myself.
Chapman has had one solid season in the pen…..
So has Joel Zumaya. With the uncertainty surrounding him last off season, I really don’t care that they didn’t give him the huge money that the Reds did
I don’t see the braves trading away Lowe, they stand to be very competitive in the NL for a few years to come.
Mike Ri December 22nd, 2010 at 11:10 am
Chip – – yeah I was just thinking of who the Braves would want . . I’m a little hesitant giving up Nova. . because i don’t want to subtract from our starting rotation. . even more so if Pettite retires.
Hopefully two or three prospects and taking on his Salary would do the job.
I like Lowe..
——————
I would probably part with Joba to do it, but I’m a bad person to suggest any Joba trades given how down I am on him in general at this point.
Dasaint:
I’m not going back to 2008.
2009: Granderson
2010: Goose egg
2011: Horrible free agent class and no pitchers better than Greinke on trade market
LGY,
It would be a great day if Mo were to sign a contract after the 2013 season. He’s a freak of nature, so anything is possible. However, he’s battled nagging injuries for the last few seasons, and two more yrs of mileage will take its toll (especially if he has ineffective set up men).
As far as Soriano goes, I don’t see how anyone can look at these #s and come away believing he’s somehow going to fall off a cliff just because he reaches some arbitrary age:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....yerId=4600
Soriano has thrown less than 400 major league innings. I think it’s safe to assume he has some good yrs left in that arm.
Heyman,
I think the Braves would trade Lowe to gain some financial flexibility
That elusive needed Yankee starter doesn’t come from the likes of Francis, Garcia, Prior, et al. All low risk – low reward. Teams not considered contenders gamble on those types wishing and praying they catch lightning in a bottle.
# DaSaint007 December 22nd, 2010 at 11:14 am
For Derek Lowe I’d trade Brandon Laird and Romulo Sanchez.
———————————–
I get the feeling that if Atlanta is willing to deal Lowe, it wont take even that much. If they are willing to move him, then it means they are comfortable with the rotation ex Lowe and we would be doing them a favor by taking on Lowe’s salary.
That said, I would lose sleep over losing Laird or Sanchez.
Bret – the free agent market it not the answer every year, this year and next year are extremely weak classes and it makes good BUSINESS SENSE (of which you have none) to not overpay in small/poor markets. you seem to be convinced that spending money is the only way to improve a baseball team. lol
Ty on Tex, ID
I love the way some big thinkers kill Cashman for spending money and then when he doesn’t spend it, the other armchair GMs kill him for not spending money.
Cash had a great off season. He signed two of the biggest free agents on the board, Jeter and Mo. No big deal? They’re not winning much in 2011 without Jeter and Mo, even if they had signed Lee. As for the canard that Jeter and Mo were always going to sign with the Yankees, wasn’t Cliff Lee supposed to sign with the Yanks? How’d that go? And Cash improved at catcher, at least defensively, and that’s a big deal.
Lee was their choice. The one player they really wanted. They really didn’t want anybody else at the price being asked. Forget the media straw men contrived by the big name writers looking to create controversy and sell papers. Cash wasn’t going to bend over backward for anybody else. Lee wanted Philly, Greinke didn’t want NY, NY didn’t want Crawford and otherwise it’s a thin Free Agent year.
Cash is going to wait as long as he can for prices to drop. If Pettitte returns, I don’t see a problem with the Yankees competing for the Division, ALCS and WS in 2011 without any significant additions to last year’s starting lineup.
Everybody needs to reeeeee-lax.
Bret The Hitman December 22nd, 2010 at 11:16 am
Dasaint:
I’m not going back to 2008.
2009: Granderson
2010: Goose egg
2011: Horrible free agent class and no pitchers better than Greinke on trade market
———————————————–
I’m glad you said it. It’s a horrible Free Agent Class, so what do you expect?
Remember, with all our warts, this team was 5th in the AL in AVG, 1st in Runs, 3rd in HR nad 6th in ERA. Is there room for improvement? Sure. Are there concerns? Sure. But we’re in a better position than most, with holes that will be filled – eventually.
Bret The Hitman December 22nd, 2010 at 11:15 am
Chip,
1)Which FA next year? There are no pitchers available. Wandy Rodriguez or CJ Wilson are two I would suggest
1a)Which staring pitcher via trade? There’s nobody better than Greinke available. Top shelf pitchers who could slot in #2 behind CC are locked up. Who do you think is even close to getting moved within 1 year’s time and why? Greinke is talented, but if he can’t pitch in NY what good is he to the Yankees? I don’t know who will be available because I can’t tell you which teams are going to fall out of playoff races and look to deal players. Maybe Zambrano, Brett Myers, Matt Cain, Mat Latos, Brenden Morrow, CJ Wilson, Dan Haren, Brett Anderson. Again, I can’t predict any of that but then again I also couldn’t predict that the Mariners were going to deal Cliff Lee midway through the season.
DaSaintz007 – I find it hard to believe that the Braves would go out of their way to outbid the Yankees for a pitcher, and then 1 season removed trade him to the team they outbid.
The worst non-trades were Haren and Greinke.
You overpay for those guys, especially with this rotation and especially when you look ahead at the 2011 free agent class of starting pitchers.
Bret – your outlining of free agency and the unavailability of top-flight starting pitching should tell you that the farm system is a huge asset worth building. If free agents are not available, they have to come from within. Also, there’s no telling what can develop in the trade market. We didn’t even know a few months ago Greinke would become available. Who’s to say another team doesn’t crap out and decide to have a fire sale?
At this point might it make a lot of sense for Pettite to come back mid year? I think what might be holding him back is the fact he said the groin injury might keep him from coming back. If he waits until mid season he should be fully healed, spends time with his family, gets to take one last farewell tour, and should have a ton of gas for the end of the season/post season. His contract will obviously be less for the yanks, and the last few years weve been needing decent pitching down the stretch with injuries and a lack of good pitching in our rotation.
Haren is not worth overpaying. They didn’t think Greinke fit. Period.
Hey murph. Morning to ya.
Chip,
Wandy Rodriguez is not a #2 starter in the AL East.
CJ Wilson? Texas had 24 million per earmarked for Lee…now they can’t afford to lock up Wilson?
The notion that the Yanks built their 1996 dynasty on fiscal restraint and farm production is at the same time factually flawed and misleading as a guide for the future.
The early dynasty was not shy about acquiring through free agency or trade players who were highly paid by the standards of the time. Jimmy Key, David Cone, Steve Howe, Roger Clemens, Wade Boggs, Tony Fernandez , even Joe Girardi and Mike Stanton, and others. Between 1995 and 2001 they were either first or second in the American League in team payroll. They didn’t blow other teams away in total payroll the way they began to in 2002, but the Yanks were far from shy in handing out or trading for large (again, for the time) contracts.
At the same time, the sheer amount of minor league talent at crucial positions that coalesced at approximately the same time is not something that can be replicated. Jeter at SS, Williams in CF, Posada at C, Mo as closer and Andy at SP. Even trades turned to gold, most notably Paul O’Neill but also Roger and others.
The team that came together 1995-2001 was a perfect storm. Great young players at the most important positions on the field, good trades, sustained success in the biggest market in the country, economic boom times in the country and the world, all of this came together to produce booming revenues and a team that could continue to buy success once the 1996-2001 team began to drop away.
That model is not sustainable. The talent that drove the initial success is aging and disappearing, other teams have adjusted to the Yankee model by signing their young talent to long contracts, drying up the free agent stream that fueled and continued to fuel the Yank success, the revenue of some of the competition is beginning to catch up, and no minor league system can consistently or predictably produce the kind of talent the Yankee minor league system produced to build the original dynasty.
This off-season is a glimpse of the future. The Yanks will be good and win more than their share, but the colossus we’ve come to know and believe in is inevitably going to fade.
That’s just the way life is.
The smartest person here is murphydog
If Cashman offers Andy 13mm, he’ll sign.
Nova is dominating winter ball, and is a legit starting pitcher.
With Andy as the 3, Aj as the 4, and Nova as 5. That is a good staff.
Signing a proven reliver wouldn’t be bad, but not for closer money.
Please need to get a GRIP.
The season is not won or lost because we didn’t sign terrible Free Agents like Brandon Webb or Brad Penny.
Chip December 22nd, 2010 at 11:20 am
Bret The Hitman December 22nd, 2010 at 11:15 am
Chip,
1)Which FA next year? There are no pitchers available. Wandy Rodriguez or CJ Wilson are two I would suggest
1a)Which staring pitcher via trade? There’s nobody better than Greinke available. Top shelf pitchers who could slot in #2 behind CC are locked up. Who do you think is even close to getting moved within 1 year’s time and why? Greinke is talented, but if he can’t pitch in NY what good is he to the Yankees?
——————————————–
Chip – the only fault I find in your analysis is something i seemingly see everyone saying and thats this statement: “Greinke is talented, but if he can’t pitch in NY what good is he to the Yankees?”………and here is why:
1 – maybe he can pitch in New York, we’ll never know, if he was willing to come here then that tells me that he at least thinks he can
More importantly
2 – if he fails because he cant pitch in NY, which is what it would be chalked up to since he obviously can pitch well…….THEN HE STILL HAS VALUE TO US BECAUSE HE WOULD BE VALUABLE IN A TRADE ELSEWHERE
Thats the key to me……its not like he suddenly loses all value. He is 27 years old and has a cy young under his belt…..not performing in NY wouldnt suddenly make him a #4/5 starter in Milwaukee or in any other city that wanted him.
Bret – GREINKE was not a non-trade
You keep saying that, like repeating it over and over and over will make it true.
He turned down the deal in place last year. This year the Royals wanted too much from the Yankees.
You kill Cashman for not making moves, and then want him to make BAD TRADES.
Are you bi-polar?
Teams not considered contenders gamble on those types wishing and praying they catch lightning in a bottle.
*******************************
Your New York Yankees of the future….play the minor league guys hoping they work out and fill in the rest of the roster with has beens and never will be’s…but hey the payroll will be about 120 million in a few years…
You don’t overpay ever. There is no scenario where overpaying is a good idea. Thats how you run a business into the ground.
Bret,
Do I wish that we didn’t have holes in the rotation right now? Sure. Frankly, I wish the rotation looked like this:
CC
Burnett
Pettitte
Hughes
Kennedy
But it doesn’t and I’m over it. Granderson was a good trade even if it meant trading someone who probably will develop into a decent (12-15 win/season) pitcher.
Do I think that there are arms in the system that can replace Kennedy? Sure.
That’s what Cashman believes, and frankly, with the FA market as it is, I think we’ll be seeing more young talent in the rotation and pen starting this year.
It’s transition time.
“As far as Soriano goes, I don’t see how anyone can look at these #s and come away believing he’s somehow going to fall off a cliff just because he reaches some arbitrary age”
———————-
Hardwired,
I did this last year but can’t find the post. Look at the ages of closers in MLB. See how many are older than 30 let alone in their mid 30s.
Soriano also has an extensive injury history. 2009 and 2010 are the only years in his career where he didn’t suffer some sort of arm injury.
CNTG – you and bret should get a room.
“Greinke is talented, but if he can’t pitch in NY what good is he to the Yankees? ”
There is absolutely no evidence Greinke can’t pitch in NY. None.
Forget 13 for Andy. Just go all the way with the 16 he used to make. Leave no room for doubt.
Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2010 at 11:27 am
You don’t overpay ever. There is no scenario where overpaying is a good idea. Thats how you run a business into the ground
*********************
Derek Jeter’s recently signed contract says hello….
I’m not sure I understand why people think overpaying for FAs is some new phenomenon. It’s happened in the past over and over again. Sometimes when a product is in demand, you have to overpay for it because there are more parties willing to pay the market price, and then “overpaying” just becomes “paying.”
# ac1 December 22nd, 2010 at 11:28 am
Forget 13 for Andy. Just go all the way with the 16 he used to make. Leave no room for doubt.
——————————–
While it always eventually is about money, it doesnt seem to be the case right now. Andy pettitte has made $125.3 mm in his baseball career to date……thats in salary only. I really dont see $4-5 mm in annual pay for 2011 being the difference maker. He either wants to come back or he doesnt.
Did Bret really criticize Cashman for buying his way out of things in 2009 when that is exactly what he is constantly advocating to do?
Carlo,
Then it can’t hurt to make the offer then.
Carlo,
Then it can’t hurt to make the offer then.
How’d that go? And Cash improved at catcher, at least defensively, and that’s a big deal.
///except my concern is that the presence of Martin will delay Montero too much for him to have a proper adjustment period with his bat.Great as he surely will be,and I speak from seeing him A LOT as a MiL player,he is still likely to have a lull even if he comes out smoking.
I believe it is important to get that period of adjustment out of the way earlier,because he will be much more apt to be in the full swing of things down the stretch when a RH power hitter to go along with ARod will make a significant contribution to the yanks’ division and pennant hopes.I don’t view Montero as someone who isn’t capable of helping this season,on the contrary,I think we NEED Montero’s bat.The lineup with him thumping receives a whole new dimension,esp with Po as DH.
The yanks when they sign someone they’re paying reasonably well will go with that player even if he is being pushed.They did this to a fault with relievers (Latroy Hawkins over and over and over again) and other FAs. I worry not about them being a little more cautious with Montero,which I’m all for, but that they will BLOCK him because this other guy is here,even if the kid is ready to roll.That would be a mistake in my judgement.
CNTG – Paying a little extra to retain the icon of your franchise is just slightly different than going outside of the organization to sign players that you have no idea what to expect from.
ConcernedCitizen December 22nd, 2010 at 11:31 am
I’m not sure I understand why people think overpaying for FAs is some new phenomenon. It’s happened in the past over and over again. Sometimes when a product is in demand, you have to overpay for it because there are more parties willing to pay the market price, and then “overpaying” just becomes “paying.”
************
Precisely.
But the idiot savants who excel in advanced math fail in basic logic.
“Derek Jeter’s recently signed contract says hello….”
Derek Jeter is worth more than the value on the field.
He has grown the brand of the Yankees over the last 16 years.
So whatever you pay him, he’s worth it.
# ac1 December 22nd, 2010 at 11:32 am
Carlo,
Then it can’t hurt to make the offer then.
————————————–
even though you say we never agree, i agree…it cant hurt…..but im just not so sure it matters that much. i honestly dont believe andy is sitting there using this retirement as leverage to grind another $1-2 mm after tax dollars out of the yankees.
The Yankees already have $110 million tied to 5 players in 2013 and $70 million tied to 3 players in both 2014 and 2015.
This idea that the Yankees are trying to lower payroll some ridiculous levels like $120 million is one of the most ridiculous things said on here in a long time.
With how much money they have tied up to so few players they couldn’t even do it if they tried.
That model is not sustainable. The talent that drove the initial success is aging and disappearing, other teams have adjusted to the Yankee model by signing their young talent to long contracts, drying up the free agent stream that fueled and continued to fuel the Yank success, the revenue of some of the competition is beginning to catch up, and no minor league system can consistently or predictably produce the kind of talent the Yankee minor league system produced to build the original dynasty.
This off-season is a glimpse of the future. The Yanks will be good and win more than their share, but the colossus we’ve come to know and believe in is inevitably going to fade
——————————————
Wave,
I wrote something similar recently, and I think folks thought I was crazy. The FA market and salaries is becoming unsustainable beyond 2 top-flight players per team.
The business model therefore must change.
I would be perfectly content with a rotation of CC-Hughes-Pettitte/Wandy/Lowe-AJ-Nova. We just need a reliable veteran inserted and suddenly things are looking up. Then, the youth can fill out the end.
2009 New York Yankee Championship Team and the amount of players with overpaid contracts they had on the team:
Mark Teixeira
Derek Jeter
Alex Rodriguez
Jorge Posada
CC Sabathia
Aj Burnett
Hideki Matsui (because of the injuries)
Damaso Marte
thats 1/3 of the roster
LGY,
You love putting words in people’s mouths because you want to make man love with Cashman.
I mentioned non-trades of Haren and Greinke as my main points of contention with Cashman. Also, Aroldis Chapman wasn’t a big spending item.
# brianlopez22 December 22nd, 2010 at 11:33 am
“Derek Jeter’s recently signed contract says hello….”
Derek Jeter is worth more than the value on the field.
He has grown the brand of the Yankees over the last 16 years.
So whatever you pay him, he’s worth it.
———————————
I keep forgetting he played for nothing over that period. While somewhat tongue in cheek…..the point is, market values are adhered to whether its an overpay or not until a Yankee fan can find an outlying reason (jeter) when it makes sense.
The entire concept of market value in baseball is ridiculous because sometimes certain players are far more important to certain teams then they are to others. Look at a closer for example, if the yankees, mets, red sox, angels, rangers, cubs, white sox, dodgers all have big name money closers, and the best closer from the previous season leaves his club via free agency……does anyone think he will get a true market value payday?
Bret,
You have been saying for MONTHS how the Yankees NEED to overpay for BOTH Lee and Crawford.
You are already advocating that they overpay for Jose Reyes.
Your main points of contention change everyday.
Carlo, the reason i think it does matter is because of his past reactions to money. He left NY for Houston when they offerend more quicker, then the same when he left Houston for NY. The last few years, money has come up also. Didnt like Yankees offer and ended up with 5.5 after 2 years of 16. Said if he came back, he would give a discount this year.
JUst saying, doesnt hurt to be proactive. Cash should go to him if he already hasnt and say, 16 M, take it or leave it.
@Carlo Emphasis on the word “market.” The “market” determines the “value.” If a product is not in demand, the value drops because the market isn’t demanding it. Jeter isn’t really a fair example because part of his “value” isn’t quantifiable, i.e., the team dynamic and the brand image. He was much more “valuable” in that sense to the Yankees than he would have been to another ball club.
I’d definitely overpay for Jose Reyes as a free agent. Move Jeter to 3b. DH Arod.
As for Lee, I was never gung-ho about him.
Crawford, yes, I’d overpay for him.
But I’m not letting you change the subject.
Passing on Haren and Greinke via trade will prove to be catastrophic for Brian Cashman.
I still say the Yankees make a push next year for Cole Hamels. Phillies have to be running out of money.
Brets payroll would be north of $230m
No, Bret’s payroll would be 200 million. I would have denied Arod after he opted out.
Carlo, what you are not understanding is that the Derek Jeter brand and the Yankee brand are married. There would be a HUGE economic brand hit, if the two were to get divorced. So you want the Market (other teams) to determine his value. But the value is now intrinsic, which you are not factoring in. He was paid for the past 16 years, but the damage of a brand separation costs more that Derek jeter’s contract.
# ConcernedCitizen December 22nd, 2010 at 11:41 am
@Carlo Emphasis on the word “market.” The “market” determines the “value.” If a product is not in demand, the value drops because the market isn’t demanding it. Jeter isn’t really a fair example because part of his “value” isn’t quantifiable, i.e., the team dynamic and the brand image. He was much more “valuable” in that sense to the Yankees than he would have been to another ball club.
———————————
Right – so my point is that there is no factual way to prove certain guys are “overpays”. Sometimes the market may value a player at X, but if a certain team needs that player considerably more than they will pay well above the market…..that doesnt mean its an overpay. It means it is an above market deal because the acquiring team saw the player as being more valuable to them then other teams did.
Is CC Sabathia an overpay? Market wasnt even close to where we were.
OK fine… Brets team would be awful. Better?
Jeter at 3rd? Is that a joke? He doesnt have the arm strength.
No, Bret’s payroll would be 200 million. I would have denied Arod after he opted out.
__
And we wouldnt have won the 2009 world series.
Who’s to say they can’t sign both Lee and Crawford? Gardner is terrible. This is the Yankees, Lee AND Crawford. Gardner is terrible. They have to. They need to. Gardner is terrible. Lee and Crawford. Lee and Crawford. Lee and Crawford.
-Crawford signs
What is Cashman doing? Is he some type of wimp? Gotta make moves. Gotta make moves. Lee AND Greinke. Lee and Greinke. Lee and Greinke.
-Lee signs
OMG. OMG. OMG. Cashman. What a woose. Unbelievable. So scared. No risks. Greinke. Trade for Greinke. Gotta trade for Greinke. Greinke, Greinke, Greinke!!!!!!!!!
-Greinke traded
How did he not trade for Greinke??? WAIT, how did he not trade for HAREN!!!!! Haren! Haren! How did this happen. I can’t believe no Haren!!!
Chapman. What about Chapman?! How did he pass on Chapman. Greinke, Haren, AND Chapman. I told you all along!! All along I have been saying I can’t believe Cashman did not sign Chapman. Did not trade for Haren. Did not trade for Greinke! Greeeeeiiiinnkkeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!
/BrettheHitman’d
Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2010 at 11:33 am
CNTG – Paying a little extra to retain the icon of your franchise is just slightly different than going outside of the organization to sign players that you have no idea what to expect from.
brianlopez22 December 22nd, 2010 at 11:33 am
Derek Jeter is worth more than the value on the field.
He has grown the brand of the Yankees over the last 16 years.
So whatever you pay him, he’s worth it.
******************
Are you talking about t-shirt sales again?!? Well if thats the case then Hideki Matsui sold the most t-shirts in the world – with Asians making up about half the worlds population….so don’t give me that bs…..
if you are talking about not overpaying because it runs a business down then the business we are talking about is winning championships..and giving jeter 17 million is bad business……derek jeters off the field value will not impact the yankee money making machine one iota…
if the yankees were a 4th place team the last 16 years – derek jeters pretty face and off the field sainthood would not have mattered one bit – its all about winning – always was and always will be……the rewards that come with winning is what people like derek jeter get ultimately- its not the other way around – the yankees – all 25 of them on the dynasty teams made derek jeter what he is today – derek jeter did not make the yankees what they are today…..
and giving a player 17 million dollars for 3 or 4 yers when he obviously isn’t worth it – which handcuffs the already cheap owner who is hellbent on lowering payroll drastically is the beginning of the end of the dynasty – or what left of it….
overpaying is bad business no matter who the person is…especially when that person is NOT the reason for all the profits….
Bret – He didn’t opt out, I thought you said above that you weren’t going back to 2008?
You change your tune every 5 minutes, strangely coinciding with your opinions being busted as ludicrous.
truth be told i am find with francis or lowe because i have to assume they cannot be worse than mitre in the starting 5.
# brianlopez22 December 22nd, 2010 at 11:45 am
Carlo, what you are not understanding is that the Derek Jeter brand and the Yankee brand are married. There would be a HUGE economic brand hit, if the two were to get divorced. So you want the Market (other teams) to determine his value. But the value is now intrinsic, which you are not factoring in. He was paid for the past 16 years, but the damage of a brand separation costs more that Derek jeter’s contract.
————————-
Brian – i work in finance, I have a clear understanding of markets and intrinsic values…….but since you mentioned it, do you know the dollar value of the jeter brand to the yankees? was the yankee brand a big deal before jeter? does the yankee brand die if derek jeter is not a yankee?
Quantify for me what you think that brand hit is in real dollar terms.
Is it me, or is “The Wide Net” the “Lock Box” of the 2011 off season?
LGY – It must be frustrating to spend the amount of time he does coming up with these crazy ideas only to have every single one of them proven wrong over time.
*Sigh 2010. Coffee’s still kicking in.
“if the yankees were a 4th place team the last 16 years – derek jeters pretty face and off the field sainthood would not have mattered one bit”
Just like Don Mattingly’s, right?
Bret The Hitman December 22nd, 2010 at 11:24 am
Chip,
Wandy Rodriguez is not a #2 starter in the AL East.
CJ Wilson? Texas had 24 million per earmarked for Lee…now they can’t afford to lock up Wilson?
——————-
You don’t need a #2. You have one in Phil Hughes. Yankees need a #3 or #4 pitcher
# ac1 December 22nd, 2010 at 11:47 am
truth be told i am find with francis or lowe because i have to assume they cannot be worse than mitre in the starting 5.
————————————-
we would be expecting a heck of a lot more (and paying for it) from Lowe then we would from Francis. I like Lowe because he is big game tested and proven and he is durable. What worries me about Lowe is that he is a boozebag and sometimes those guys struggle in the big apple.
CNTG – which handcuffs the already cheap owner who is hellbent on lowering payroll drastically
When you stop making stuff up, I’ll respond to you again.
Cashman will definitely be fired if Pettitte retires.
I give it 1 year.
They should go for it with Soriano. Right now there is no reliable bridge to Month.
If they make it worth his while financially, my guess is he’ll be fine as Mo’s 8th inning guy.
Not to mention that as Mo gets older and a little more fragile, Soriano would be good insurance in case of disaster.
Wave Your Hat December 22nd, 2010 at 11:28 am
“Greinke is talented, but if he can’t pitch in NY what good is he to the Yankees? ”
There is absolutely no evidence Greinke can’t pitch in NY. None.
————————
Evidence, no. Huge questions, yes.
And now we’ll never know. Cashman obviously didn’t feel that the price was worth the gamble when in truth he didn’t need another ACE type pitcher anyway.
carlo:
stop being defensive.
can you honestly tell me that the Yankee brand would not be hurt if Derek Jeter played for another team?
Sports fans are emotional, just look at this blog.
If Derek jeter played for another team, there is most certainly a back-lash.
While I don’t have the Yankee operating capital in front of me.
The emotional backlash of Derek jeter signing elsewhere would be catastrophic in the short term.
Please tell me you disagree.
# Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2010 at 11:48 am
LGY – It must be frustrating to spend the amount of time he does coming up with these crazy ideas only to have every single one of them proven wrong over time.
—————————–
I actually love his reyes idea. I do believe reyes is a transformational player for the Yankees. A good defensive shortstop who occupies the leadoff spot for years to come. Whether the yankees do it, given the respect of jeter, is doubtful at best…..but frankly, I would love the move.
google is not kind to bret.
Boras needs the Yankees involved in the Tex bidding, but he also wants to know how far he can push us in our spending on the Manny sweepstakes which is just around the corner.
Perhaps the Yankees floated a 160 mil 8 year proposal for Tex in order to outline their budgetary limits in coming negotiations over Manny. Maybe they’re just telling Boras that they’re only willing to add an additional 20 million in payroll.
In essense, this phantom offer (yes, it’s not a real offer) to Tex is just our way of saying that we’re not going to spend much more than 20 mil per annually on any player, not even Boras’ most valuable commodity in Tex.
If Pettite returns then there is a very good chance that the 2011 Yankee rotation will be better than the 2010 rotation was.
Bret The Hitman December 22nd, 2010 at 11:51 am
Cashman will definitely be fired if Pettitte retires.
I give it 1 year.
—————————-
So you’re saying the Yankees are going to have an awful season…miss the playoffs by a wide margin and play infront of 20,000 in August and September? Because that’s possibly the only way Cashman gets fired.
Bret – Lets make a freindly wager?
If Pettitte retires and Cashman is not fired by the start of the 2012 season, you stop making up trade proposals and crying about Cashman.
If he is fired I will box to you publicly.
err bow
Chip,
If Pettitte retires, that’s exactly what will happen.
Some notes from Jonathan Mayo on the farm system. Make your own decisions.
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....8;c_id=nyy
How bout this, either you stop whining about people who don’t want to make man love with Brian Cashman, or you drop dead?
# brianlopez22 December 22nd, 2010 at 11:52 am
carlo:
stop being defensive.
can you honestly tell me that the Yankee brand would not be hurt if Derek Jeter played for another team?
Sports fans are emotional, just look at this blog.
If Derek jeter played for another team, there is most certainly a back-lash.
While I don’t have the Yankee operating capital in front of me.
The emotional backlash of Derek jeter signing elsewhere would be catastrophic in the short term.
Please tell me you disagree.
—————————————–
I am not being defensive at all, sorry you read it that way. Would the yankees losing Jeter hurt the Yankees financially given his marketability……yes, that is true…..but the yankee brand is so much bigger than derek jeter that its really not meaningful. I can argue that Jeter was overpaid by $40-45 mm in this recent deal……does jeter alone bring in $40-45 mm in incremental revenues to the yankees? remember, all mlb merchandise is split amongst every team. The answer is no.
Funny how bret will not stand by any of his opinions, just keep making up new ones and throwing them at the wall.
ConcernedCitizen December 22nd, 2010 at 11:49 am
“if the yankees were a 4th place team the last 16 years – derek jeters pretty face and off the field sainthood would not have mattered one bit”
Just like Don Mattingly’s, right?
*********************
We’re talking about making profits – not nostalgia….don mattingly isn’t even in the top 10 of yankee players that are crucial to profits…oh and by the way if its about winning championships he wouldn’t even break the top 1000 – yes i know it wasn’t his fault but the fact remains that don mattingly never won a championship for the team with the most championships in sports history…so i’m sorry don mattingly is non existent in this conversation…
Bret – It’s not my track record of constantly being wrong about everything that happens, it’s yours.
Which opinion did I not stand by? Can you f-in read?
Just because what I wanted to happen didn’t, doesn’t make it the right move.
Your boyfriend gets things wrong.
Carlo December 22nd, 2010 at 11:47 am
# brianlopez22 December 22nd, 2010 at 11:45 am
Carlo, what you are not understanding is that the Derek Jeter brand and the Yankee brand are married. There would be a HUGE economic brand hit, if the two were to get divorced. So you want the Market (other teams) to determine his value. But the value is now intrinsic, which you are not factoring in. He was paid for the past 16 years, but the damage of a brand separation costs more that Derek jeter’s contract.
————————-
Brian – i work in finance, I have a clear understanding of markets and intrinsic values…….but since you mentioned it, do you know the dollar value of the jeter brand to the yankees? was the yankee brand a big deal before jeter? does the yankee brand die if derek jeter is not a yankee?
Quantify for me what you think that brand hit is in real dollar terms
————————————-
Carlo,
So if I say I work in Real Estate Development, does that make me Donald Trump?
Let me turn around and ask you:
Do was the yankee brand a big deal before jeter? Quantify and prove it.
Do you know the dollar value of the jeter brand to the yankees? Quantify and prove it.
Does the yankee brand die if derek jeter is not a yankee?
Well did the Yankee brand die after Ruth, Mantle, DiMaggio, Guidry and Jackson?
Look how crazy you are that you’ve drawn this imaginary line between your self and anyone that supports the highly successful franchise that Cashman has contructed.
Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2010 at 11:49 am
CNTG – which handcuffs the already cheap owner who is hellbent on lowering payroll drastically
When you stop making stuff up, I’ll respond to you again.
********************
No worries friend…i’d rather converse with people like Bret and Carlo who seem to live in a more realistic world than you anyway…Merry Christmas…
lol ….. take it down a notch fellas . . its just a blog
“And now we’ll never know. Cashman obviously didn’t feel that the price was worth the gamble when in truth he didn’t need another ACE type pitcher anyway.”
No, Cashman didn’t think he needed another ace. You can tell he didn’t think he need an ace because of his tiny little offer to Cliff Lee, lol. Imagine what he would have offered if he thought he needed another ace.
CNTG: “We’re talking about making profits – not nostalgia”
So what or who sold YS tickets in the 80s and early 90s, hm? You’re saying it WASN’T Don Mattingly?
Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2010 at 11:58 am
Look how crazy you are that you’ve drawn this imaginary line between your self and anyone that supports
“the highly successful franchise that Cashman has contructed.”
**********
No. Your BFF constructed this pitching rotation with Mitre in it.
He’s not the architect of this franchise.
Only a crazy person would think that.
Crazy…in LOVE.
Your trolling skills have increased (42).
Carlo:
”
does jeter alone bring in $40-45 mm in incremental revenues to the yankees? remember, all mlb merchandise is split amongst every team. The answer is no.
”
I agree that Derek Jeter does not bring this in.
But does his separation from the Yankees now cause a negative sentiment to cause the loss of this income.
I would argue, yes, it would. Over the short term.
Derek Jeter’s onfield market value as you established was most likely worth approximately 27 million (10,9,8), how do you figure he was overpaid 45 million? You think his onfield value is only 6 million over 3 years?
Assuming my number, Jeter was only overpaid 24 million. And I think the negative value caused by a Derek Jeter divorce would cost the Yankees more than 24 million.
Wave Your Hat December 22nd, 2010 at 11:59 am
“And now we’ll never know. Cashman obviously didn’t feel that the price was worth the gamble when in truth he didn’t need another ACE type pitcher anyway.”
No, Cashman didn’t think he needed another ace. You can tell he didn’t think he need an ace because of his tiny little offer to Cliff Lee, lol. Imagine what he would have offered if he thought he needed another ace.
————————
In Yankee land there is a vast difference between offering huge sums of money and offering prospects.
Lee not only wouldn’t have cost any prospects but Cashman has seen firsthand that Lee has the ability to pitch in high impact, high pressure situations and pitch well. He handled the fishbowl of Philly and the pressure of the post season.
All Greinke has ever done is pitch in relatively meaningless games for a team that is covered by one newspaper.
Cashman had an offer on the table for Greinke. Greinke turned down the chance to be a Yankee.
Now you want him to overpay to attain that same player?
and I’m crazy?
— Lowe is owed — > 2010: $15 million, 2011: $15 million, 2012: $15 million
Montero’s swing reminds me of A-Rod’s when he had the more pronounced leg kick for a timing mechanism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12_MRmnJKpg
He has the same solid base, and absolutely crushes the ball. It’s the type of swing I hope to teach to my son someday…
The Christmas Spirit is alive and well here at LOHUD.
Be nice to see a move made for Blanton. Doubt the Phillies are interested in making the Yankee’s better though.
Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2010 at 12:11 pm
Be nice to see a move made for Blanton. Doubt the Phillies are interested in making the Yankee’s better though.
—————-
Doubt the Yankees would have any interest in helping the Phillies get some financial flexibilitye either.
ConcernedCitizen December 22nd, 2010 at 12:00 pm
CNTG: “We’re talking about making profits – not nostalgia”
So what or who sold YS tickets in the 80s and early 90s, hm? You’re saying it WASN’T Don Mattingly?
***************************************
I’m not that old where i was paying attention to crowd numbers in the 80′s and early 90′s (nor did i care) but from what I have read from people on here that did pay attention – there wasn’t anyone in the stands in the 80′s and early 90′s…so once again it wasn’t don mattingly’s awesome presence that brought them in – it was the fact that the yankees sucked that kept people away…
i could almost guarantee that the number of people in the stands in 2011 will be the same wheter derek jeter or felipe lopez is playing SS as long as the yankees are in first place and crushing the competition…actually i’ll go on to say that the number of people in the stands would be more if the yankees are 50 -20 and in 1st place by 10 games in june with felipe lopez playing SS than if the yankees were 35 -35 and in 4th place 10 games out of 1st with derek jeter playing SS..
bottom line with or without derek jeter its all about winning…..if derek jeter is batting .230 in june and strikesout with the bases loaded to lose a game he will be booed if the yankees are in 3rd place and at .500 and it will just another game if the yankees are in first place and 30 games over .500 – thats the nature of being a yankee fan…its all about winning…this ain’t the pirates (yet)
Tom in N.J. December 22nd, 2010 at 12:09 pm
The Christmas Spirit is alive and well here at LOHUD.
—————-
Certainly enough scroogeballs.
Montero’s swing reminds me of Nelson Cruz.
Oh, I left out another potential high impact pitcher who will likely be available next winter: Yu Darvish.
Chip – Oswalt likely goes after this year. I don’t think they would make all of these moves, including the ridiculous Howard extension if they were concerned about flexibility.
oooofa, i’ve had enough of these high profile overpaid japanese players.
Saint – how about I pose it this way. Would anyone on this board not watch the yankees, go to games, buy yankee stuff, if derek jeter weren’t a yankee next year? Did the yankee brand die in asia when matsui left?
As long as the yankees are winners, the brand lives on and is strong as ever.
Derek Jeter will make more than $51 mm over 4 years – I believe his fair market value is $15 mm over 2 years, maybe $20 if we want to get aggressive. He will make $60 over 4 with the Yankees. That’s not an insignifcant premium paid for nostalgia and brand image and derek jeter is not worth $40 mm in brand/mktg revenue to the yankees.
And fyi – donald trump has made way too many bad real estate deals to fancy urself as the donald trump of real estate. Just letting u know so your next tangent can have a bit more impact.
Tom in N.J. December 22nd, 2010 at 12:09 pm
The Christmas Spirit is alive and well here at LOHUD.
***************************
More like Ebenezer Scrooge’s idea of Christmas Spirit.
Pettitte is not going to retire. $13 million and being the competitor he is, no way. Not with Mo, Po, and Jeter still there. One more year with Po, and they go out together. Hopefully after a game 6 champagne soaked clubhouse after they beat the Phillies again in the World Series.
Hughes has not hit his ceiling, and AJ has hit his bottom. CC will be the same, if not better now that his knee is fixed. That’s 4 guys who I’d go to war with, including Pettitte.
Cliff Lee would have been nice, and icing on the cake, but it was not meant to be.
Grienke was too much of a risk given the social issues and his cost, Crawford was not needed at the price tag, Haren/Webb/CMW all injury risks of unclear ceiling, and who is going to pay middle relief guys lots of $$$$ (been there, done that, Kyle F says hello). Zambrano is a head case, and not worth $18 million. What else was Cashman supposed to do?
Pettitte is the biggest question mark, and let’s see if Cashman can bag him.
A lot of discourse on this blog of late..
Optimistic Point Of View:
Although Arod, Tex, Jeter, Posada and Granderson all had lower than their typical offensive production career numbers. Optimism says, that the majority of them will bounce back this year and we’ll be much better offensively. Martin/Montero is an improvement over the horrible Cisco and we can pick up some offense there as well.
AJ won’t have as terrible of a season and perhaps Pettitte will return which solidifies are rotation for the most part and given Nova the 5th spot can turn out well.. he’s showed some good stuff.
Pessimistic Point Of View:
We haven’t really made many moves to improve our team from last year and aside from those with the opinion that Agon/Crawford are not all that much better than Beltre/V-Mart, IMHO are mistaken. It’s a different dynamic of a team and Boston’s done a great job improving.
If the 5 players mentioned above have the same type of season, then this team offensively will not be able to pick-up the rotation. If we start the season without Pett, we are that much further from competing.
Last year, our SP during the first half was nothing short of spectacular. They carried our offense more often than not, and you just can’t expect that to be the case this year.
Cashman and the attaboy:
Sure, saving multi-millions and remaining under the luxury tax threshold is something to be excited about until your team under-produces and ratings suffer similarly to Boston’s last year. The ratings did drop and spike quite a bit last season compared to the consistency of the years before.
Pitching wins, HR’s sell tickets..
Recap:
The good news is there is still time and we’ve got out work cutout for us. It remains to be seen what we accomplish.
Maybe Cashman should rappel down Pettite’s chimney with a bag full of money.
Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2010 at 12:15 pm
Chip – Oswalt likely goes after this year. I don’t think they would make all of these moves, including the ridiculous Howard extension if they were concerned about flexibility.
*************************
Even more reason to have offered lee 30 million for 5 years…in 3 years they’ll have posadas 14 million, rivera’s 15 million, jeters absurd 17 million, arod down to about 22 million (from the crazy 33 million he’s paid now) – tahts 50 million off the books – with only cano and maybe hughes (if he improves to a #3 or #2) to worry about giving big contracts to… but when the plan is to STAY at 120 – 140 million payroll in 3 years then you can’t blow lee out of the water…
carlo:
You are still valuing Jeter as an independent brand.
I disagree with his on-field value because in this market, Lance Berkman just got $10 mm for 1 year.
But aside from that. The Negative value of Derek Jeter being allowed to leave the Yankees is greater than the leftover value of his contract.
Remember, you will have fans that boycott. Players will see a team icon gone for financial puposes which will negatively impact free agent signings. And the negative worldwide press surrounding the “divorce”.
You can not have Jeter in a bubble when analyzing this. You have to account for the prior 16 seasons, as much as you don’t want to.
Man, what a board today.
Some people need to chill. Being nasty, even on a blog, is not the way to go.
“In Yankee land there is a vast difference between offering huge sums of money and offering prospects.”
See news reports from early July, 2010. Montero and Lee figured prominently.
“All Greinke has ever done is pitch in relatively meaningless games for a team that is covered by one newspaper.”
Way to change the subject. You said Greinke couldn’t pitch in NY without any evidence, then you said Cashman didn’t need an ace when in fact he obviously wanted one very badly, now you fall back on a hackneyed piece of trite tripe.
“Joe from Long Island December 22nd, 2010 at 12:25 pm
Man, what a board today.
Some people need to chill. Being nasty, even on a blog, is not the way to go.”
I agree. The personal attacks get old quickly. There’s a lot of unrest with regards to where the teams at currently, but blaming and attacking each other is not the solution.
It’s almost as bad as the stalemate in congress and both the dems and reps pointing the finger at each other while nothing is being accomplished.
“Joe from Long Island December 22nd, 2010 at 12:25 pm
Man, what a board today.
Some people need to chill. Being nasty, even on a blog, is not the way to go.”
I agree. The personal attacks get old quickly. There’s a lot of unrest with regards to where the teams at currently, but blaming and attacking each other is not the solution.
It’s almost as bad as the stalemate in congress and both the dems and reps pointing the finger at each other while nothing is being accomplished.
CNTG – Now you want to pay a mid-late 30′s pitcher $30mil a year? because the already highest offer ont he table wasn’t enough? Someone with a history of back problems?
The last high profile pitcher with back problems they signed was RJ, how did that work out?
The fact of the matter is that Lee never wanted the Yankees, he only wanted them onvolved. He sat around waiting for the Rangers to up their offer, and he would have taken that. The phillies came in and offered him less years and money and he took that. He didn’t sit and make them up their offer a year.
At no point were the Yankee’s the top of his list, they were 3rd at best.
CNTG – but when the plan is to STAY at 120 – 140 million payroll in 3 years then you can’t blow lee out of the water…
Please just… stop…
“There’s a lot of unrest with regards to where the teams at currently, but blaming and attacking each other is not the solution.”
It’s not a solution but it is amusing. There’s no solution anyway.
Francis?? An absolute waste of money and a roster spot…. like his ex-Rocky buddies, Atkins and Hawpe, much too soft with their better years far behind them at early ages.
C.C.
Hughes
A.J.
Small
Chacon
7th Sturtze
8th Proctor
Time to change your number again Girardi. Anyone wearing 29?
Wave Your Hat December 22nd, 2010 at 12:25 pm
“In Yankee land there is a vast difference between offering huge sums of money and offering prospects.”
See news reports from early July, 2010. Montero and Lee figured prominently.
“All Greinke has ever done is pitch in relatively meaningless games for a team that is covered by one newspaper.”
Way to change the subject. You said Greinke couldn’t pitch in NY without any evidence, then you said Cashman didn’t need an ace when in fact he obviously wanted one very badly, now you fall back on a hackneyed piece of trite tripe.
———————-
You’re quite the moron you know that?
I was illustrating the differences between Lee and Greinke.
As you point out – Cashman was willing to part with a lot more for half a season of Lee than he was for 2 years of Greinke – Why?
Two reasons: 1 being he obviously thought he could keep Lee around and the other is that he was convinced that Lee could handle NY and not convinced that Greinke could.
As for need vs. want you said it yourself “you said Cashman didn’t need an ace when in fact he obviously wanted one very badly”
Did he want another ace on the staff – absolutely. Did he need one – no. If it were a matter of need over desire he would have gone for the Greinke deal that was on the table, he would have made it impossible for Lee to say no by offering even more years or money. He didn’t because, you little twit of a man, there is a difference between need and want and the Yankees ain’t in need.
And regarding the evidence that Greinke couldn’t pitch well in New York, I fully admit that there’s no way to prove it one way or another without actually getting Greinke to New York, but since it wasn’t a need and was instead a want Cashman obviously didn’t think the gamble was worth it.
On the other hand, Cliff Lee has proven he can pitch in pressure situtions – something Greinke has never done. Not tripe, just the facts you immense moron.
Just for a touch of irony tinged with humor. Julian Assange is ranting in the press about the unfairness of leaks about his legal battles in Sweden. Some things just can’t be made up.
I want a new Lamborghini, but I’m not buying one because it’s way too expensive and I don’t need one – Greinke’s a Lamborghini – everyone would want one, but if you don’t need one why pay that kind of sticker price for it?
GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2010 at 12:47 pm
Just for a touch of irony tinged with humor. Julian Assange is ranting in the press about the unfairness of leaks about his legal battles in Sweden. Some things just can’t be made up.
———————-
I believe someone just handed him a copy of Websters turned to the page on which irony is defined.
Man, there are some bat sh*t crazy suggestions, views and accusations in here.
We made it into the ALCS last year. The team has not changed much outside of potentially Pettitte retiring (who knows with that?), Wood signing a closer deal (which was not unexpected at all), and bench guys clearing out (also not unexpected). Why is the team in desperate need right now?
Pettitte could be a bit of a make or break call at this point, so you bet Cashman should be working on some answers, but other than that, the sky is not falling here. The team underperformed last year, and especially in the ALCS, but there aren’t major changes needed here. Don’t mistake wanting Cliff Lee to make us almost unstoppable with needing Cliff Lee or else we will fail again.
AJ Burnett could be a great #2 in our rotation, and that’s not just a load of hooey. However that will take some luck and a lot of work. Hughes could become a great #2 this year as well. We’re looking at a need for at least a 5th starter and at most a 2nd starter, but with any luck a #2 is right under our nose.
if Jeter does not improve or continues to decline I can hear the ruckus now, “man what was the Yankees FO thinking???”
Even Jeter at the media event of him re-signing he looked tired.. he may claim that “I have a lot of years of baseball left..” but his age and body might have something else to say about that.
ID -
first – they didn’t offer the most $ …and it came with alot of stipulations from what I’ve read…stipulations that turned lee off somewhat to playing here…
secondly – so giving lee 5 million dollars more is not better than signing jeff francis and mark prior – saying lee is old and has a bad back after he jilts the yankees is akin to a girl bad mouthing her boyfriend of 3 years after he dumps her – right after the girl was saying for 3 years just how awesome and amazing her boyfriend was…
3rd – i hope i’m wrong but all the signs are pointing to letting the big money players sign elsewhere (or not trading for them because they have a pimple on their ass) even with all of the holes on the team BECAUSE they are hell bent on lowering payroll…
4th – i thought you weren’t going to respond to me anymore since i make stuff up (just kidding – and i was serious when wishing you happy holidays – we may not agree on things but this is still just a dumb game and there is no reason for not being civil to each other even if we don’t agree)
have a good holiday season……
Cashman is an IDIOT. All he has done is sit on his hands all winter. Wake-up! Suck up your pride. Call Scott Boras. And sign Soriano. With a questionable rotation, PLEASE STRENGTHEN THE BULLPEN!
GB, Chip – I thought that was the definition of hypocrisy.
And that will be my last political comment of the day. (I know, you’re all disappointed….)
Joe, I’ll go with hypocrisy. Either way, it’s funny as Hell.
There’s nothing wrong with thinking that Cashman has done a poor job putting the team together for this season. It’s a fact. The rotation is in shambles and he needs to make moves or hope for miracles to have a rotation that won’t kill the pen by June.
That said, the people who think the team is fine is still the same team that was 2 games away from the world series have a right to think that as misguided as they are, lol.
Seriously, this is supposed to be fun. I know Bret gets on a bender with a player and can drive you nuts in here, but just let him spew. You’re not going to change his mind about what he thinks no matter what you write. That much is obvious.
The fact of the matter is some of us have seen this team long enough to know what the lack of moves and foresight will probably mean baseball wise.
Right now we’re depending on AJ becoming the pitcher he was in Toronto that last year, we’re expecting Nova not to have any major struggles even though last season he appeared to only be effective the first time through the order and we’re considering Mitre a serious rotation option.
Those three things are major questions marks and I, for one, don’t think it should have come to this. Cashman can’t make people take his money, but he can make deals to fill out a rotation when he can see it’s a problem that needs addressing.
Just go out and find one solid starter and things will calm down. The mere idea that Mitre is our 5 is so disturbing it’s not funny.
As for Cashman’s payroll comments yesterday those were not cool. Especially to people who pay for tickets. Hearing that the team is celebrating the fact that they aren’t spending was a bit of a slap when they raise ticket prices and charge what they do to enjoy the team. I realize you have a choice in buying the tickets, etc. But the Yankees goal should not be a 150 million payroll in the future. We pay what we pay because they spend what they spend and go for it year in year out. If the new mantra is “frugality trumps winning” there will be blood in the Bronx.
This off season feels like a wet blanket so far.
Hopefully, that changes.
It’s really unfortunate how this board continues to become nastier and nastier.
Really uncalled for posts today.
People are in such a sour mood over the hot stove – and it’s only December. It’s as if it’s the middle of the season and the team is 20 games out.
donald trump has made way too many bad real estate deals to fancy urself as the donald trump of real estate. Just letting u know so your next tangent can have a bit more impact
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Carlo,
LOL. Point being, just saying you’re in finance doesn’t give you sole rights to being ‘right’ about understanding values and markets. Point well taken on Trump. Difference is he walks into a bank and he’ll get financing, regardless of his past losses.
CNTG – My point, in regards to your response, was that at no point did Lee go back to the Yankees and say “your offer needs to be this, and I will accept it”. He did that with Texas. He obviously had that number in his head about philly. That “magic number” did not seem to exist for the Yankees. At no point did he go to them and say “if you give me this, i will be yours”. This is why I do not believe this sitaution was fumbled by Cashman.
I just wouldn’t come to the conclusion that they are hellbent on lowering payroll based on one offseason, but hellbent on not taking on bad contracts as was the norm for the last 8 years.
A sour mood should not be a reason to be nasty to others. It’s supposed to fun, and lighthearted, after all. It is a game.
Amazing that the same people whining about the Yankees not being willing to get screwed on the Greinke trade are the same ones that constantly bring up the bad trades and FA signings over the years and continually bring up Jay Buhner for Ken Phelps or the Dave Collins and Steve Kemp signings. That deal had all of the makings of a bad trade and Lee was not about to come to the Yankees for less than $25-$28 mil a year for 7 years.
G.Love, your posting of late had been spot on. keep it up, you seem to be one of the very few posters these days with a firm grip on the situation!
Joe-
I agree. There’s really no excuse for the language and the endless arguments between posters here.
People are so bent out of shape from a lack of hot stove activity that they are taking it out on other people here with nasty personal insults.
It’s really unfortunate. People should keep their sour moods to themselves.
GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2010 at 1:04 pm
Amazing that the same people whining about the Yankees not being willing to get screwed on the Greinke trade are the same ones that constantly bring up the bad trades and FA signings over the years and continually bring up Jay Buhner for Ken Phelps or the Dave Collins and Steve Kemp signings. That deal had all of the makings of a bad trade and Lee was not about to come to the Yankees for less than $25-$28 mil a year for 7 years
——————-
You and I hardly ever agree but we do agree on this one. We may well look back on the Greinke non-trade the same way we look back on the Johan Santana non-trade as a blessing.
Of course with Johan it’s easy to see that it was smart to walk away from him given his injuries and diminished fastball – I fully expect Greinke to pitch very well in the comfort of Milwaukee and the NL Central. Does that mean he would have pitched well in New York – absolutely not.
GB-
A case of live by the leak die by the leak.
Too funny.
“blake says:
December 22, 2010 at 12:23 pm
Maybe Cashman should rappel down Pettite’s chimney with a bag full of money.”
—–
That would be pretty funny.
This year’s FA and trade market is as thin as it has been in years. The only excess is in the relief pitching market and the cost is insane because most of them are closers. Next year doesn’t appear to be much better. Making a trade for the wrong player or just because Boston did is worse than no deals at all. That was the 1980s version of Yankee Hot Stove. There were two players, maybe three that would have helped…but not at all costs.
I’ve never seen people act *this* bad on this blog. really is amazing to me that people feel the need to belittle and attack.. I’ve pretty much made a list of those I know not to talk with.
I’m a freshman in HS, and most people I know don’t act this way.
MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 1:09 pm
GB-
A case of live by the leak die by the leak.
Too funny.
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More leaks than Scott Boras’s office.
GB-
I didn’t know if you knew, or cared but Nolasco went bye bye.
He re-signed with the Fish.
GB-
By the way, thanks for the mILB update you posted earlier.
We do have an excellent farm system.
I liked the Martin trade. Lot’s of upside.
And before I forget have a great Xmas (be sure to drink too much).
Jose Reyes? The guy who admits to not concentrating on every pitch cause there’s too many in a game for him to stay focused? The guy who leads the league in brain farts? The guy who took longer to come back from a hamstring than Boone took to return to the field from open heart surgery?
I rather think not. Reyes is the antithesis of Derek Jeter. It’d be like replacing Mariano with the guy who leads the league in blown saves
MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 1:14 pm
GB-
I didn’t know if you knew, or cared but Nolasco went bye bye.
He re-signed with the Fish.
———————————————————————————————————————-
I’m not so sure, MTU. Florida just made Nolasco more attractive in trades…locked up for 4 years, young, good and pretty reasonable. A trade between now and July wouldn’t shock me.
People shouldn’t just hand that division to the Phillies. Florida has a habit of hanging around, and being in the chase. They now have Johnson and Nolasco, and that’s not bad. And, putting together a dream rotation on paper doesn’t guarantee the Phillies anything. We can all recall instances where paper advantages don’t play out. All it takes is a tweak, pull, or false-step, and suddenly a surplus vanishes.
The games are played on dirt and grass.
I don’t see anything wrong with signing free agents out there for depth at this point. All it costs are money and the Yankees haven’t spent much this off season other than on Jeter and Mo.
I don’t know where Soiano’s head is at, but I don’t think overpaying for him to set up for Mo and close on the days Mo can’t go back to back is a good strategy when the rotation is this big of question mark.
Turning the games into a 6 inning game with a pen of Mo, Soriano, Robertsen, Joba, Feliciano and Logan would mean wins for this team.
It would also tell the offense that if you get behind early the game is still in reach if they keep grinding and battling.
At this point Cashman has to make the best use of what’s available. Soriano is the best weapon he could bring in.
Would it be an overpay? Absolutely. The same way Werth, Crawford, Benoit, Jenks were all overpays. That’s the reality of the season.
That said, you put a 2nd closer in our pen and people will calm down and be willing to let the Yankees experiment with the rotation.
Right now I would be thrilled with Soriano and Millwood as additions who could only cost money (although Soriano costs a draft pick).
That said, signing Soriano, if possible, turns the games into 6 inning affairs and gives Cashman time to wait for starting pitchers to become available in season. It also allows him to keep all the prospects.
It’s the best move this team could make that is on the table right now.
I hope they are seriously considering it.
I would’ve loved to see Greinke a Yankee and my dad said that the yanks didn’t even try to put together a montero-less package.. dunno if that’s cuz they just didn’t want the risk or KC said montero or nothing.. but I think we could’ve beat the brewers deal without montero in a pkg.
Joe,
Same goes for the Bosox
.
You guys don’t really think it’s a coincidence that Reyes is a “key” player on the team that’s most famous for meltdowns and malingerers, do you?
They will be unraveling that mess over there for years. The Yankees don’t need to import any of their problems.
MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 1:17 pm
GB-
By the way, thanks for the mILB update you posted earlier.
We do have an excellent farm system.
I liked the Martin trade. Lot’s of upside.
And before I forget have a great Xmas (be sure to drink too much).
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My pleasure. It’s pretty amazing that a 27th round pick like Laird has risen up the rankings so fast and so far. If he contributes, somebody deserves a pay raise.
It’s a damned pity that I have to hide my beer and pizza from “Killer”. He needs to get a job.
They might want Soriano but does he want us, is the question.
My question is: if we can outbid everyone’s closer money , would he settle for being a set up guy?
Also would we give him 4 years ?
Use this Lee money next year to win the rights to and signing of Yu Darvish. Kid doesn’t have any trick pitches like Dice-K that you have to worry about – he’s just your old fashioned fastball, change, splitter guy who is going to be juuuuust fine in the majors.
G. Love I know for a fact they are
# DaSaint007 December 22nd, 2010 at 1:00 pm
donald trump has made way too many bad real estate deals to fancy urself as the donald trump of real estate. Just letting u know so your next tangent can have a bit more impact
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Carlo,
LOL. Point being, just saying you’re in finance doesn’t give you sole rights to being ‘right’ about understanding values and markets. Point well taken on Trump. Difference is he walks into a bank and he’ll get financing, regardless of his past losses.
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After being told I didn’t understand markets, I responded with what should be interpreted as a decent barometer of understanding markets. I didn’t say I was warren buffet, merely that I understand how markets work. Why you decided to go where you went with this tells me its more of a personal thing then anything else, the reasons for which i dont know.
Jose Reyes?
Who wants to spend major bucks on an injury plagued diva??
G.Love – I think if something could be worked out with Soriano, that would be fine. But, it does take two to tango. Apart from the money (which we’ll all agree is very important), does he have an ego that would demand to be The Man? That could complicate getting him to sign on. Would there be a special Yankee price because of that?
If Andy doesn’t come back, I think Millwood would be a good idea. While he does have some mileage on that arm, he’s been around the block, and knows how to pitch. At least, it always seems that way when he’s faced the Yanks. If you’re not expecting him to be the anchor of the rotation, but a number 4-5, instead, he’d work out to be at least league average, I think. And, he could hold the fort until better options, from outside or inside, are available.
Kind of like randy’s buddy, Livan.
Dustin Moseley, Sergio Mitre, and Ivan Nova made 19 starts and pitched 101 innings as starters for the Yankees last season. They averaged about 5 1/3 innings per start and had a collective 5.26 ERA.
Andy Pettitte and Javier Vazquez (the two pitchers the Yankees are trying to replace if Andy retires) made 47 starts and pitched 273 innings as starters last season. They averaged a little less than 6 innings per start and had a collective 4.48 ERA.
AJ Burnett made 33 starts and pitched 186 2/3 innings. He average 5 2/3 innings per start and had a 5.26 ERA.
In total the Yankees got 99 starts and 560 2/3 innings out of their 3-5 spots in the rotation.
From the 3-5 spot they got 5 2/3 innings per start and a 4.88 ERA.
mick,
I would outbid everyone on Soriano and tell him that Mo can’t go back to back and multiple innings and he’s going to get a lot of saves. He’s also going to eventually replace Mo down the line should Mo hang it up.
All he costs is money and he’s the best pitcher still available as a free agent.
If you just think about a pen of Mo, Soriano, Robertsen, Joba, Feliciano and Logan, it looks like one of the best in the league.
If we can’t make the rotation an immediate strength, then make the pen the strength and let other teams know they aren’t coming back on us after 6 next season.
That’s what I would do. If it costs 40-50 million to secure Soriano, it’s worth it. That’s pocket change to the Yankees.
GB-
Yeah. There’s a lot to like and be excited about down on the farm.
No doubt that. That’s something we all can be positive about.
You got your wish now that both Laird and Nunez are shaggin’ em’.
I will be curious to see the Mission Impossible Man pitch.
I have never seen him but I know you like him.
I’m sure he won’t self-destruct in 5 seconds.
“Kind of like randy’s buddy, Livan.”
Oh, Joe…please. We just got Randy settled down at “The Home” and now you’re getting him all riled up again.
My big free agent question is – where is Adrian Beltre going?
He’s been non-responsive to reasonable offers made by the Angels and A’s. The Red Sox don’t need him and he’s priced himself out of just about every other market there is.
Would the Brewers – who are going all in this year before losing Prince – make a play for him? Would the Cardinals do it?
Would the Yankees essentially be willing to cut bait with Jorge by bringing in Beltre, moving Alex to DH and either giving Posada his walking papers or relagating him to the bench? (IMNSHO the answer to this last one is absolutely not, though it’s something I might consider to improve the overall defense of the club)
So where does Beltre go?
# brianlopez22 December 22nd, 2010 at 12:24 pm
carlo:
You are still valuing Jeter as an independent brand.
I disagree with his on-field value because in this market, Lance Berkman just got $10 mm for 1 year.
But aside from that. The Negative value of Derek Jeter being allowed to leave the Yankees is greater than the leftover value of his contract.
Remember, you will have fans that boycott. Players will see a team icon gone for financial puposes which will negatively impact free agent signings. And the negative worldwide press surrounding the “divorce”.
You can not have Jeter in a bubble when analyzing this. You have to account for the prior 16 seasons, as much as you don’t want to.
——————————————-
Brian – I fully understand your point of view, where I struggle however is the concept that paying Jeter considerably more than what the market values Jeter to be worth makes financial sense for the Yankees given the other revenues associated with who he is and what he has done.
I completely agree that jeter deserves to be overpaid by the Yankees……where I believe we differ is with regards to just how overpaid he is and my view that his intangible revenue producing worth is less than the market premium we are giving him.
I am a firm believer that the quality of the team drives the financial engine. I personally couldnt care less about individual accolades, cy young awards, mvps, gold gloves, etc. I am a season ticket holder and all i care about is titles. I will buy my tickets every year, win or lose, because I trust the Yankees will always do their best to field a competitive team. I dont buy tickets because Jeter is a yankee, nor would I stop buying them if he were not. I believe most people root for the Yankees and support the team with their own money because they are Yankee fans, not Derek Jeter fans.
Thats it, maybe ours are just two divergent opinions that will never jive……but this is my perspective.
While I’m not going to contest that Soriano is talented, he’s not going to pitch in 80 games. What’s needed is more depth AND an EIG.
That’s where a Jon Rauch and a Soriano would be useful. There needs to be 2 guys in the pen who can alternate each day on a consistent basis. Mitre and Rauch could do that. Someone to give length, to add to Joba and Robertson, to complement a Logan and Feliciano, and then get to Soriano before Mariano.
Especially if the rotation remains weak.
Joe from LI,
The only thing about Soriano is that he was a set up guy before. If he gets his money and gets to close games since Mo can’t close every day it may appeal to him to be part of the best pen in baseball.
Adding him to the pen makes it so balanced and deep it’s not funny.
It also allows Cashman to take some risks with the kids and let them try their hand at starting knowing the pen is there to still secure wins.
As for Millwood the thing I like about him is he gives up his runs but he doesn’t get rattled. He knows how to navigate through a game.
The younger guys tend to fall to pieces when the wheels come off, but Millwood can get himself out of inning he’s already been touched up in.
As a back of the rotation starter who doesn’t cost any prospect he’s worth a shot since if he doesn’t work out or someone emerges we just trade him/DFA him and move on.
If we walked away with Soriano and Millwood I would feel much better about our chances in the spring.
At the least the story would be that the Yankees bullpen is the best in the league and should be feared. That puts pressure on the opposing offense and takes pressure off our starters knowing the pen has their backs.
g love
cannot argue with you on that. seems like a no brainer to me. just doesn’t look like it’s happening is all. for whatever reason, maybe we don’t see the urgency to sign a caddy for Mo at closer money. seems to be the new philosophy.
MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 1:28 pm
GB-
Yeah. There’s a lot to like and be excited about down on the farm.
No doubt that. That’s something we all can be positive about.
You got your wish now that both Laird and Nunez are shaggin’ em’.
I will be curious to see the Mission Impossible Man pitch.
I have never seen him but I know you like him.
I’m sure he won’t self-destruct in 5 seconds.
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If NYYs get Pettitte back, I think that Nova, Phelps, Mitchell and maybe Brackman can combine for 12-13 wins between them. That would include the #5 spot and whatever games they start for Pettitte. That would about equal what they got last year, assumming Pettitte wins 11-12 games.
# Chip December 22nd, 2010 at 1:29 pm
My big free agent question is – where is Adrian Beltre going?
He’s been non-responsive to reasonable offers made by the Angels and A’s. The Red Sox don’t need him and he’s priced himself out of just about every other market there is.
Would the Brewers – who are going all in this year before losing Prince – make a play for him? Would the Cardinals do it?
Would the Yankees essentially be willing to cut bait with Jorge by bringing in Beltre, moving Alex to DH and either giving Posada his walking papers or relagating him to the bench? (IMNSHO the answer to this last one is absolutely not, though it’s something I might consider to improve the overall defense of the club)
So where does Beltre go?
————————————–
Almost no chance this happens. Though i like it. It would have been realistic had they not signed Martin and essentially said Jorge would split catching duty with Montero and or Cervelli. Allowing Alex to DH would go a long way towards keeping him healthy all year.
Chip,
Got to love your craziness. Posada and his $13M are not going anywhere this season.
As far as the bullpen is concerned, with the rotation in flux as it is, I’d like to see Cashman create the pen as follows:
Mariano, Soriano, Rauch, Robertson, Joba, Logan, Feliciano.
If not Soriano, then I’d add Fuentes or Gregg. Cheaper but less dominant.
Didn’t it come out already that KC said Montero or nothing?
P. Does your father work for the Yankees brass in some fashion?
Chip – cut the rope with Jorge, and bring in Beltre? That’s the sort of thing I’d expect from the Red Sox.
From a straight lineup point of view, it would be very shrewd. However, from a clubhouse point of view, it might be bad. The Captain would not take kindly to it, nor some others, I think.
The arguemnt seems to be this: If we want a p[layer, they want YANKEE dollars. We are looking to cut payroll and they are living in the past and go elsewhere where they get closer to what they want and have a bigger role on the team. This could be the case with MIllwood.
GB-
True.
Real question is, “Is Andy comin’ back ? “.
I would love to believe that he is.
mick,
With the starting pitching market for the next 2 years looking thin, I think the organization needs to change the philosophy and sign the 2nd closer to bolster the pen.
On the flip side, we sign Soriano we keep him away from our competition in Texas and the Angels or whatever other AL team is considering him.
I’m not convinced Texas doesn’t sign him and shift Feliz to the rotation.
I just got out of my car.Randy Levine should not be allowed to be interviewed.let him schmooze and say a few trite words at ribbon cutting ceremonies for neighborhood parks etc.as a spokesperson re baseball matters,he’s just awful.forget that he’s a worm, that’s not even the point.he stumbles over words, went into some silly stuff on ESPN-Radio just now how “um…agents and clubs are calling us..um,um, we have a strong farm system..um, um…”it was painful and I was wincing the whole ride home.put Newman on the radio if they want to talk about the farm.Muzzle this suit.I’d rather listen to Hank even.though stupid,at least he has some vitality. this guy sounds like they just exumed him.
# Joe from Long Island December 22nd, 2010 at 1:36 pm
Chip – cut the rope with Jorge, and bring in Beltre? That’s the sort of thing I’d expect from the Red Sox.
From a straight lineup point of view, it would be very shrewd. However, from a clubhouse point of view, it might be bad. The Captain would not take kindly to it, nor some others, I think.
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There is something to be said however for making decisions to make the baseball team better and frankly, it is hard to deny that doing exactly what Chip says is not making the baseball team better.
Better defense at 3rd base. Better bat in DH slot. Good bat at 3rd.
“Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2010 at 1:35 pm
Didn’t it come out already that KC said Montero or nothing?
P. Does your father work for the Yankees brass in some fashion?”
He doesn’t work for the Yankees but he’s already said that here. I’m not allowed to say what he does or he would probably make me sleep in the FL swamps.
*exhumed him.
mtu, I’m not really counting on Pettitte’s return, but, I’m hopeful. NYYs have won with more than one young pitcher before and these kids have talent…a lot of talent.
I can say that he knew George Steinbrenner really well, don’t think he’d feed me to the gators for saying that.
Sure they’re showing interest – until $$ gets thrown around. Then Cash will look elsewhere….
Point being, Cash will likely say it’s too rich for his blood.
Murphy, Mo and Jeter WERE always going to sign with the Yankees; the analogy to Lee just doesn’t work – it’s a completely different situation. The Yankees weren’t going to let them walk away and they weren’t going to walk away. They’ve done the bare minimum, to be honest……not what I call great.
Rehab FA to Yankees. Give me 3 years and $15M.
Same FA to other team: Give me 1 year and $4M with incentives.
# DaSaint007 December 22nd, 2010 at 1:45 pm
Rehab FA to Yankees. Give me 3 years and $15M.
Same FA to other team: Give me 1 year and $4M with incentives.
lol pretty much
GLove, that “atta boy” comment was so ludicrous.. I can’t even believe Cashman said that.
In 3 years Rafael Soriano will be 34 years old.
These are the closers who were 34 and older last year than recorded 10 or more saves.
Francisco Cordero: 40 saves, 3.84 ERA
Billy Wagner: 37 saves, 1.43 ERA
Mo: 33 saves, 1.80 ERA
Ryan Franklin: 27 saves, 3.46 ERA
Brian Fuentes: 24 saves, 2.81 ERA
Octavio Dotel: 22 saves, 4.08 ERA
Koji Uehera: 13 saves, 2.86 ERA
Trevor Hoffman: 10 saves, 5.89 ERA
Quite a wind fall for NY charities, compliments of the NYYs.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....um=twitter
GB-
Wether I like it or not, or think it’s enough or not, that may turn out to be the only game in town.
It should be fun to watch Martin, Montero,Laird, Nunez and the Kid pitchers regardless.
And maybe the Octopus out of the BP.
GLove, I really don’t want to give a draft pick to Tampa, but that’s not a bad idea. That said, I don’t see it happening. Soriano is going to want to close full time and he’s too expensive for the Yankees.
Millwood would be ok…..I’d rather see him out there than 2 kids or Mitre.
The fact remains that no one can put final judgmnt on the offseason till it’s over. You can’t project what the rest of the winter will bring until its over.And even then, you can’t predict if “minor” moves wre good ones till the season starts. Sure we could make Soriano an offer he can’t refuse but the mere fact that he wants to close could defuse that. He might be looking for Mo money, we will not pay 15m for 4 years, we just won’t do it, it would have been done already.
MTU, the fans that go to Trenton games in 2011 will get to see Pat Venditte. I have no idea what or if he’ll ever do much, he if fun to watch. As far as Laird, I’m not sure if he breaks camp with the yankees, but, he will so up before the ASB.
GB-
Yup. We’re gonna see Laird sooner or later. Hopefully sooner.
I like Warren too. He should be in AAA sometime next season I would think. Kind of a Phelps clone.
It will be interesting to see how DePaula does. He has big arm.
The Yankee line of thought seems to be: Why sign Soriano now for him to be the closer in 2 years? We do not know how he will be 2 years from now. We have someone now for the next 2 years. We can explore the market and him in 2-3 years, dep. on the contract he gets. Someone better might come along from within or outside the organization in the futre. Mo may return.
Lots of things to think about.T hey just don’t want to commit to long term deals for relief pitchers.
Millwood’s time has most likely come and gone. He’ll be 36 in 2 days and he’s had 1 good year in the last 5. he couldn’t keep the ball in the park in Baltimore, so there’s no reason to think he’ll be better in YS in 2011.
GB-
I’m not a big Garcia fan but I think he’s better than Millstone.
I’m in total agreement with Sarge. Skip Milwood.
MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 1:58 pm
GB-
Yup. We’re gonna see Laird sooner or later. Hopefully sooner.
I like Warren too. He should be in AAA sometime next season I would think. Kind of a Phelps clone.
It will be interesting to see how DePaula does. He has big arm.
———————————————————————————————————————-
Yeah, Warren and Phelps are quite similar. Same pitches, control. Not sure that I’d pitch them back to back in the same series, though. NYYs have a few that are pretty much the same. A couple of these kids will be dealt. NYYs just need to make sure they keep the right ones. I assume that I won’t see DePaula until 2012. Extended ST and short season team in either Tampa or Staten Island. I’ve only seen short clips, so I don’t know much at all about him.
People who want moves made just for the sake of making moves are bordering on desperation. The rs have made moves, but they had to. They replaced 2 of their best hitters with worthy replacements and bolstered a bullpen that was decimated. They were dealing from desperation, we are not. These apeople are “right” fighters, they cannot wait to say I told you so, nothing is good enough for them and they who they are.
Not interested in Millwood at all… Garcia minimally but can he even throw 85 now?
Still like the idea of checking in on Carmona. High ceiling and, hopefully a reasonable price tag that would not include Montero.
But I wouldn’t do it until getting an answer from Pettite. I think the Yanks can be quite good in the rotation with Nova replacing Vazquez and AJ replacing AJ
MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 2:06 pm
GB-
I’m not a big Garcia fan but I think he’s better than Millstone.
———————————————————————————————————————-
I’m guessing that it could be Garcia and Francis (left handed) with Francis on a minor league deal with a ST invite and an opt out after June if he isn’t in NY.
GB-
I got a feeling DePaula has the potential to really open some eyes.
I’ve seen video of him.
Wowza.
We’ll see.
You think Noesi is better than Nova, right ?
That’s a another twin pair like Phelps/Warren.
We need excellent self-scouting for sure.
Soriano’s injury history:
2002: Shoulder strain
2004: Strained oblique, elbow strain, ulnar collateral ligament tear in the elbow resulting in TJ surgery.
-Missed basically all of 2004 and 2005 season
2006: Shoulder fatigue
2008: Elbow tendinitis, elbow inflammation, elbow surgery
GB-
I used to see Francis all the time on the Rox feed I got out here.
Before he hurt his arm I thought he was not great but good.
Now. With reduced velo who knows.
If Cashman wants to cast that wide net, then he should do the folowing:
Sign Rauch and Fuentes/Gregg for the pen.
Sign Justin Duchscherer, Jeff Francis and Freddy Garcia to minor league deals with ST invites. Let them shake out as needed. Whomever doesn’t stick can sign elsewhere at the end of ST.
I’d be interested in a Carmona trade being that he’s signed at a reasonable cost and we know what his upside is like.
I wish Soriano’s price would come down a little. I wonder if getting taken to the cleaners on Marte’s contract is having any influence on that decision…
Some people want a guarantee at every position. Players don’t come with guarantees.Sure, we are the New York Yankees but even we don’t win each and every season, altho many think it our birthright. We have the most money, spend it. Yes, but shouldn’t be spent wisely? Obviously we cannot but championships, esp when players refuse our offers, which are now on the low side.
Not your father’s Yankees anymore.
Signing Volorado pitchers are always a risk, mainly if they are breaking ball types. They always seem to get hurt because of having to over crank those curves and sliders in order to get them to break in the thin atmosphere.
“Millwood would be ok”
Milwood had a 5.10 ERA last year. Garcia wasn’t much better (4.65) and did in in a far weaker division.
If Cashman is going to go dumpster shopping, those are the only types of guys that will be available. The reclamation guys will probably be too rich for his blood. Only reason Prior probably signed was because he has pitched in 1 minor league game in the last 5 years with 4 different teams. His shoulder is fried at this point.
The kids need to step up in a big way and pitch above their capabilities to make this work. Same with Burnett, as Cashman said this morning, has to pitch like a front-end guy.
-buy championships-
Signing ***Colorado*** pitchers
LGY December 22nd, 2010 at 2:11 pm
Soriano’s injury history:
2002: Shoulder strain
2004: Strained oblique, elbow strain, ulnar collateral ligament tear in the elbow resulting in TJ surgery.
-Missed basically all of 2004 and 2005 season
2006: Shoulder fatigue
2008: Elbow tendinitis, elbow inflammation, elbow surgery
————————————–
LGY, this is an odd number year, so he should be ok. LOL.
I’d try Brad Penny. At least he throws hard, unlike these guys like Francis, Young, Garcia, etc. who are throwing mid 80s slop.
I am so mad at Brian Cashman right now!
j/k
How can we decide which pitcher to target w/out knowing if Andy comes back?
Are we looking for a #5 or a 2-3?
It would seem like we should know any day now on Andy…
GB-
Now Ubaldo is definitely from Volorado.
He certainly pitches like he is from another planet at times.
i almost don’t care what pitcher they sign, just please – Mitre to da pen
Mitre will prob. replace Aceves. Nova has the better shot for now.
RAB is suggesting that NYYs go after Florida lefty Anibal Sanchez. Interesting idea but not likely.
http://riveraveblues.com/2010/.....ble-40295/
I agree Nova is in all likelihood in the rotation. But currently, Mitre is the #5. And I gagged while typing that
GB-
I believe sanchez is a righty. Maybe he’s a switch pitcher.
MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 2:19 pm
GB-
Now Ubaldo is definitely from Volorado.
He certainly pitches like he is from another planet at times.
———————————————————————————————————————-
One little typo and you spot it. Get a job selling dictionaries.
I am not advocating signing Freddy Garcia, but he really was not terrible last year.
18 of his 28 starts were quality starts. 18 quality starts was 53rd best in MLB. Cliff Lee actually had the same amount of quality starts
In 4 starts he just got absolutely bombed:
3 innings, 7 runs vs TOR
2.1 innings 7 runs vs FLA
1.1 innings 5 runs vs OAK
2.1 innings 6 runs vs MIN
You remove those 4 starts and he pitched 148 innings, a little more than 6 innings per start, and a 3.41 ERA.
The same amount of Quality Starts as Cliff Lee! Get on the Freddy Garcia Bandwagon folks!!!!
mick December 22nd, 2010 at 2:21 pm
Mitre will prob. replace Aceves. Nova has the better shot for now.
—
As of now, that still leaves them needing another starter.
CC
Hughes
Burnett
Nova
?
That’s what they have.
NickSwisher It’s official guys! I’m a Team Coach in the #mbtweetrace. Enter 2 compete 4 a 2012 Mercedes-Benz C-Class Coupe! http://on.fb.me/hfLihy
:”On the other hand, Cliff Lee has proven he can pitch in pressure situtions – something Greinke has never done. Not tripe, just the facts you immense moron.”
No, this notion that successful major league pitchers can’t pitch under pressure is tripe. No, tripe makes the notion sound good. The notion is a big steaming pile of [this portion of the sentence has been removed in deference to those like Joe in Long Island, CB and others who believe in peace, love and universal harmony].
Mitre is Girardi’s boy-toy. Girardi will find a way to give him a rotation spot if he pitches OK in ST.
GB-
It’s better than selling brushes.
Encyclopaedia Brittanica used to be very popular before the Internet
caused all their sales people to jump from the tops of buildings.
MTU December 22nd, 2010 at 2:25 pm
GB-
I believe sanchez is a righty. Maybe he’s a switch pitcher.
———————————————————————————————————————-
Left handed, right handed. Makes no difference. It’s one of those.
Seriously, I can’t ever remember seeing him pitch and thought he was left handed. I was going on “Killer’s” word for it. He’s not much of a scout.
CC had 26 quality starts (76%)
Hughes had 15 (52%)
Andy had 14 (67%)
Burnett had 14 (42%)
Vazquez had 10 (38%)
GB-
I understand. Can’t trust Killer, especially when he’s been drinking.
I don’t mind Mitre in a limited role. He has some value and performed well last year in that role….definitely not as a starter though
LGY,
We have to be on the Freddy Garcia bandwagon, or the Webb, Millwood Francis bandwagon at this point. We have no choice.
The Yankees need starters. Mitre should be a long man. He should not even be our 6th starter.
HardballTalk Driver who killed Nick Adenhart sentenced to 51 years-to-life in prison http://dlvr.it/BwpTL #mlb #hbt
Just say no to Freddy.
“We have to be on the Freddy Garcia bandwagon, or the Webb, Millwood Francis bandwagon at this point. We have no choice. ”
I simply don’t understand this. I don’t see why Garcia, Webb. Millwood or any other pitcher of this sort is likely to be significantly better than a combination of Nova, Phelps, Mitchell and/or Noesi.
The veteran names sound more comforting, is all.
The Rotation will be: Sabathia, Hughes, Pettite, AJ, Nova. That’s not too bad and could easily be better than last year if AJ bounces back. Id expect Nova to give them as much or more than Vasquez did.
I wouldn’t mind working out a deal with the Nats for Matt Chico – I’m not giving him a rotation spot, but I would give the lefty a chance to fight for one in spring training.
My guess – if Andy retires:
CC, Hughes, AJ, Garcia, Nova/Phelps
I have no problem with the “attaboy” comment.
The Yankees are tired of financing their competition. Who can blame them?
The Rays won the AL East last year building a team on money donated by the Yankees.
If they’re going to have to do that, spend the cash on elite players like Sabathia, Tex and Lee. If none of those players are available, save it for when they are.
Barrel scraping for pitching rarely pays off and it gives a spot to someone who has no chance of ever getting better….
Wave,
You are expecting way too much out of AAA guys. Nova came up in a short stint last year and pitched OK. Not lights out. He struggled his 2nd time through the order like clockwork. If he has usually growing pains, he is going to tax the bullpen.
What makes you think AAA and AA guys who haven’t sniffed the majors yet will do better than that?
They need people to provide innings for this team. Young guys get flustered on the mound when they get challenged and fall apart and the pen is taxed.
If they can find a 4.50-5.00 ERA average starter who averages 6 innings it’s a must at this point.
Wave Your Hat December 22nd, 2010 at 2:39 pm
“We have to be on the Freddy Garcia bandwagon, or the Webb, Millwood Francis bandwagon at this point. We have no choice. ”
I simply don’t understand this. I don’t see why Garcia, Webb. Millwood or any other pitcher of this sort is likely to be significantly better than a combination of Nova, Phelps, Mitchell and/or Noesi.
The veteran names sound more comforting, is all.
———————————–
Because the last time the Yankees handed two spots in the rotation to two kids was 2008 when Ian Kennedy and Phil Hughes both spit the bit. Having a veteran pitcher as insurance is never a bad thing. If someone from the group of Noesi, Phelps, Warren, Brackman or whomever is banging down the door come June then I don’t think whatever contract the Yankees sign Garcia to would be big enough that it would be an obstacle.
Besides, you can never have enough starters available to you.
Wave -
No one is comfortable depending on Phelps/Mitchell/Noesi b.c they haven’t even sniffed the big leagues yet. At least going into ’08, Hughes and Kennedy had SOME major league innings. I’d like to see them pitch, but counting on them for rotation spots scares the crap out of me.
Not that I like the idea of Freddy Garcia
Blake-
Then get on the phone to Andy now so we don’t have to go there.
Tell him you’ll upgrade his familie’s dental care for free.
This whole “the Yankees are financing their competition” nonsense needs to stop unless you can show me where Boston, Philly, Texas, Anaheim, Minnesota, St. Louis, San Francisco you know, actual contenders, are cashing checks from the Yankees. They are the Yankees competition.
MTU,
he’s coming back….my crystal ball.says so and its right at least half the time.
“What makes you think AAA and AA guys who haven’t sniffed the majors yet will do better than that?”
G Love,
What makes you think the guys you seem to be touting will do any better? They have their own issues. And each one the Yanks sign will deprive one or two if the AAA guys a chance to emerge. That’s an enormous opportunity cost.
Look, the Yanks would have been better had they gotten Lee. We all know that. But they didn’t so the question becomes what approach is ultimately the best?
Given the choices now available, there’s no question in my mind that the AAA/AA guys are the way to go.
Phelps or Noesi cost nothing and they actually have a chance to improve. Garcia’s ceiling is mediocrity and his floor is just plain bad…..
Blake-
Just like my broken watch which is right once a day.
# Mike_Boston December 22nd, 2010 at 10:54 am
I don’t understand how a different GM would have done a better job this off season for the NYY? Big moves were made by other teams that had holes they needed to fill. Making moves for the sake of making them is what bad GM’s do just to appease the fan base. An example of this is Crawford, I think the sox made a bad move there. Spending that kind of $ on a non power, selfish/me me guy that hits 50 points lower in his new home park is a mistake, they did it because NESN ratings were the lowest they’ve been in years. They even slipped to 3rd or 4th in Boston behind the other teams, they were desperate.
Coming off a WS winning team in 09, the last thing I would want to do is fire Cashman, look at the farm he’s been over seeing and how well the kids have been playing when called upon.
People just like to have a scapegoat when things don’t go as well as they like or as they planned.
Get over Lee and Greinke, neither wanted to come here, I don’t care if Jesus himself was the GM. Be happy that you have a top 5 team to enjoy in ‘11, they’re not going anywhere and the kids will contribute, book it. If there is a need he will make a move in July ala Abreu/Lidle in 06.
—————————————-
The problem with Cashman this off season is that he put the Yankees in a situation where it was Lee or bust. He didn’t trade for Haren because he thought Lee was going to be a Yankee. He watched as other pieces came off the board because he was waiting for Lee to make up his mind only to see Lee go to the Phillies. It’s not his fault that Lee is not here it’s his fault that the Yankees were in a desperate situation where they need Lee at all costs.
Wave Your Hat December 22nd, 2010 at 2:45 pm
Given the choices now available, there’s no question in my mind that the AAA/AA guys are the way to go.
—————————————-
“Because I said so” is not really a compelling argument.
MTU,
right…..no.seriously I think he’ll be back. The tank isn’t empty….
Wave,
Then the Yankees will be a 4th place team under your plan.
Young starters fresh to the majors rarely come up and throw their best. They get scared to throw strikes until they learn that they have to throw strikes. They throw too many pitches. It takes time to develop them and I’m sorry, but with the roster they have assembled they cannot use the rotation as a rebuilding project.
Promising rotation spots to guys who never pitched in the major leagues is a death sentence for the team’s chances next year.
You let the young kids push out the underperforming vets. You don’t hand spots to the kids with no competition other than other kids.
That never works.
G. Love December 22nd, 2010 at 2:43 pm
This whole “the Yankees are financing their competition” nonsense needs to stop unless you can show me where Boston, Philly, Texas, Anaheim, Minnesota, St. Louis, San Francisco you know, actual contenders, are cashing checks from the Yankees. They are the Yankees competition.
—————————————————————————————————
G. Love-
I enjoy reading your posts and agree with most of them. But there’s nothing “nonsense” about the Rays benefitting from Yankee $ to build their team. It’s a fact, and they are the Yankees DIRECT competition, as seen this past year and more prominently in 2008 when they wrestled away the Yankees playoff spot.
blake-
I hope you are right.
He needs to let us know like yesterday.
Who can resist a call from Mo. Andy is religious. That’s like speaking directly to God.
The Yankees had no depth in 2008.
The Yankees have a ton of depth this year. If one kid is not working out, you just move down the line to the next kid.
blake December 22nd, 2010 at 2:46 pm
Phelps or Noesi cost nothing and they actually have a chance to improve. Garcia’s ceiling is mediocrity and his floor is just plain bad…..
—————————
Blake -
No doubt that the kids have a higher ceiling than Garcia does. But I would much rather ease them in than throw them right into the deep end of the pool.
Do I like Freddy Garcia? Not all that much, no.
But I do know that he can get out major league hitters – I don’t know that about Noesi or Warren.
I’m not saying hand Garcia a job – I’m saying bring him in and let him compete for one. It’s not like he’ll have a 29 year 200 million dollar contract – probably nothing more significant than 1 year a couple of million – if the kids are ready you can let him pitch out of the bullpen for that kind of money.
G. Love – thank you thank you thank you. I couldn’t agree more
The only reason Nova was even brought up last year was the Pettitte injury. How do you just promise these AAA guys (with no experience) a spot in the rotation?
“The problem with Cashman this off season is that he put the Yankees in a situation where it was Lee or bust. He didn’t trade for Haren because he thought Lee was going to be a Yankee.”
Haren was not this off-season. Please don’t confuse time periods in these arguments or complete confusion will result.
“He watched as other pieces came off the board because he was waiting for Lee to make up his mind only to see Lee go to the Phillies.”
The other available free agent pitchers simply weren’t of sufficient quality to give up on Lee. The free agent hitters would not have improved the Yanks enough to give up on Lee either.
I do not understand how you can criticize Cashman for chasing Lee. He gambled and lost, but it was a gamble that made perfect sense.
LGY December 22nd, 2010 at 2:51 pm
The Yankees had no depth in 2008.
The Yankees have a ton of depth this year. If one kid is not working out, you just move down the line to the next kid.
———————–
LGY – Theoretically you’re correct. The Yankees have lots of kids in the minors that they can call up. And if we were talking about one open spot in the rotation I would be all for letting the kids duke it out for that spot…two is a little more dicey.
I’m just saying, a veteran for the back end of the rotation, one who isn’t going to cost you much of anything, isn’t a bad idea. If by July you have multiple kids who are showing that they’re ready and Garcia is giving you nothing – then he goes the way of Randy Winn or gets shifted to the pen.
Against All Odds December 22nd, 2010 at 2:47 pm
# Mike_Boston December 22nd, 2010 at 10:54 am
I don’t understand how a different GM would have done a better job this off season for the NYY? Big moves were made by other teams that had holes they needed to fill. Making moves for the sake of making them is what bad GM’s do just to appease the fan base. An example of this is Crawford, I think the sox made a bad move there. Spending that kind of $ on a non power, selfish/me me guy that hits 50 points lower in his new home park is a mistake, they did it because NESN ratings were the lowest they’ve been in years. They even slipped to 3rd or 4th in Boston behind the other teams, they were desperate.
Coming off a WS winning team in 09, the last thing I would want to do is fire Cashman, look at the farm he’s been over seeing and how well the kids have been playing when called upon.
People just like to have a scapegoat when things don’t go as well as they like or as they planned.
Get over Lee and Greinke, neither wanted to come here, I don’t care if Jesus himself was the GM. Be happy that you have a top 5 team to enjoy in ‘11, they’re not going anywhere and the kids will contribute, book it. If there is a need he will make a move in July ala Abreu/Lidle in 06.
—————————————-
The problem with Cashman this off season is that he put the Yankees in a situation where it was Lee or bust. He didn’t trade for Haren because he thought Lee was going to be a Yankee. He watched as other pieces came off the board because he was waiting for Lee to make up his mind only to see Lee go to the Phillies. It’s not his fault that Lee is not here it’s his fault that the Yankees were in a desperate situation where they need Lee at all costs.
Chip,
You’re assuming that Garcia would want to come to ST and compete against a bunch of minor leaguers. Unless they have been injuired and trying to.work their way back then guys like Garcia and Millwood are going to want a spot in a rotation to sign. I would have no problem with signing him to a one year deal for peanuts just to compete…..if he wins then so be it.
“Then the Yankees will be a 4th place team under your plan.”
Perhaps they will. My point is that your plan doesn’t have a significantly greater chance of delivering anything better, without the promise of the upside the AAA/AA plan does.
“I do not understand how you can criticize Cashman for chasing Lee. He gambled and lost, but it was a gamble that made perfect sense.”
—————–
And it was a gamble that the vast majority on here were fine and happy with. Until it didn’t work out of course.
It is amazing how many people are coming out of the woodwork now saying the Yankees should have traded for Haren.
When the Haren trade rumors were swirling there was a small contingent of this board wanting the move to happen.
Hindsight is nice.
He didn’t trade for Haren because he thought Lee was going to be a Yankee.
————————
Overrated. As far as what’s out there , not much.
Crawford was never an option.
We are not the rs, dealing from desperation.
He might know Andy’s coming back and wants to give Nova his hot.
Any deal for a starter depends on Andy. More money if he doesn’t…
-shot-
Against All Odds December 22nd, 2010 at 2:47 pm
The problem with Cashman this off season is that he put the Yankees in a situation where it was Lee or bust. He didn’t trade for Haren because he thought Lee was going to be a Yankee. He watched as other pieces came off the board because he was waiting for Lee to make up his mind only to see Lee go to the Phillies. It’s not his fault that Lee is not here it’s his fault that the Yankees were in a desperate situation where they need Lee at all costs.
———————————————————————————————————————-
What other “pieces” were on the board that would have been to the Yankees benefit?
MLB no longer releases the revenue sharing info but as of a few years ago, these were the payors and the payees. Highest Payors listed first and descending and the payees receiving the biggest share listed first and descending.
Payors
Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Mariners, Mets, Dodgers, Cardinals, White Sox, Giants, Astros, Angels, Braves
Payees
Rays, Blue Jays, Marlins, Royals, Tigers, Pirates, Brewers, Twins, Athletics, Reds, Rockies, D-Backs, Indians, Phillies, Padres, Rangers, Nationals, Orioles
murphydog December 22nd, 2010 at 11:19 am
Cash had a great off season.
———————
I hope you’re being sarcastic
Danks is not as crazy a target as most people seem to think. From Chicago paper:
“3. Keep an eye on the Yankees. They expect to learn soon if Andy Pettitte is going to pitch in 2011. If he does retire, GM Brian Cashman is going to have to step up his efforts to land a starting pitcher. They are talking to Freddy Garcia (who hasn’t been completely ruled out by the White Sox), but will have to go in search of bigger game if they don’t convince Pettitte to return. There was speculation about the Cubs’ Carlos Zambrano last week, but the White Sox have pitchers who could interest the Yankees. Jackson, a free agent after 2011, is the guy the Sox should be most willing to trade, but Gavin Floyd and even John Danks or Mark Buehrle could be in play if the Yankees are motivated enough to offer the good stuff — outfielder/leadoff man Brett Gardner, catcher Jesus Montero or pitching prospects Manny Banuelos and Dellin Betances.
Danks is an interesting case. He’s headed to arbitration as a four-plus player and will be a very expensive proposition if he goes as a five-plus player a year from now. The Sox have tried and failed to sign him to a contract that takes him off the free-agent market after 2012 — although they’re believed to still be trying — and at some point could decide they have to deal him for a younger replacement rather than risk losing Jackson, Buehrle and him in a span of two years.”
# GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2010 at 2:57 pm
Against All Odds December 22nd, 2010 at 2:47 pm
The problem with Cashman this off season is that he put the Yankees in a situation where it was Lee or bust. He didn’t trade for Haren because he thought Lee was going to be a Yankee. He watched as other pieces came off the board because he was waiting for Lee to make up his mind only to see Lee go to the Phillies. It’s not his fault that Lee is not here it’s his fault that the Yankees were in a desperate situation where they need Lee at all costs.
———————————————————————————————————————-
What other “pieces” were on the board that would have been to the Yankees benefit?
———————————————————————————-
Going after Crawford who could have boosted the offense. Sitting down and meeting Crawford was just for show and nothing else. I’m not saying that the season is over or anything to that affect but let’s be honest not getting Lee was a blow to their system.