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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Teixeira appearance ppd. to Tuesday/pitching woes

Posted by: Brian Heyman - Posted in Misc on Dec 27, 2010 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Greetings, Brian Heyman here pinch hitting this week for the vacationing Chad.

Mark Teixeira was supposed to appear today at the Times Square Visitor Center as part of an event to promote Thursday’s inaugural Pinstripe Bowl between Syracuse and Kansas State at Yankee Stadium. The event was originally cancelled because of the snowstorm aftermath, but it has now been rescheduled for Tuesday at 3 p.m. It will feature an unveiling of the George M. Steinbrenner championship trophy that goes to the winning team.

So what should the Yankees do about this rotation problem if Andy Pettitte indeed retires? There’s a lack of depth since the top prospects like Dellin Betances and Manuel Banuelos almost assuredly need more minor-league time. Can the offense compensate? And why would Larry Rothschild be able to make A.J. Burnett consistent when Dave Eiland couldn’t? Questions, questions.

Even if Pettitte does come back, they still need depth in case of potential injuries. But CC Sabathia, Phil Hughes, Pettitte, Burnett and Ivan Nova could be wild-card worthy, not that there aren’t questions about most of the group.    

If Pettitte doesn’t come back and Sergio Mitre is next in line, they have to make a move. The thing is, the alternatives, possibly Joe Blanton, Freddy Garcia or Jeff Francis, aren’t particularly appealing, either, at least to me. How about to you? The Phillies could move Blanton after investing so much in Cliff Lee. Both Garcia and Francis have had shoulder problems in the past. Anyway, it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

If any news comes up this week, we’ll be posting it here. Stay warm.

 
 

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656 Responses to “Teixeira appearance ppd. to Tuesday/pitching woes”

  1. LGY December 27th, 2010 at 11:35 am

    Blake,

    Sorry for the confusion, I was talking about the Rauch type guys.

    Soriano I wouldn’t go near for other reasons. He is 31, has an extensive injury history to both his elbow and shoulder, and would require minimum 3 years.

  2. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 11:35 am

    ugh…..the painted picture ain’t pretty. I actually like the fact that we are virtually being written off as a wild card at best team though…….just hoping the portrayal isnt accurate.

  3. Betsy December 27th, 2010 at 11:36 am

    LGY, that’s a good point.

    Assuming Andy doesn’t return, I have no idea what the Yankees will do. None of their top prospects are close to being ready……….Even had we had Lee, I would not have wanted Nova in the rotation. Now we could have 2 kids (or 1 kid and a Mitre)? Not good to say the least.

    I don’t have much confidence in AJ, but not because of Rothschild. I have a feeling Rothschild could be very good for the staff…….he has a great reputation around the game.

  4. blake December 27th, 2010 at 11:39 am

    LGY,

    fair enough. I do think that if they can’t do much with the rotation then they shoukd beef up the bulllen to help the overall staff. Soriano on a 3 year deal wouldnt scare me much…

  5. LGY December 27th, 2010 at 11:40 am

    It is amazing how down some people are on this team.

    The Yankees can easily put together a 90 win team at minimum.

    The Red Sox are likely looking at a 95 win team.

    The difference in probability between a 95 win projected team winning the division and a 90 win projected team is only like 5%

  6. LGY December 27th, 2010 at 11:43 am

    Blake

    I’m also very confident in Joba next season which makes me less inclined to be major player for relief help.

    I fully acknowledge that puts me in the small minority though :(

  7. Betsy December 27th, 2010 at 11:43 am

    It’s amazing to me how some people are amazed that people would be down on the team……..the pitching staff stinks. If they win 90 games, it will have to be on the strength of a renewed offense, in a division known for it’s pitching

  8. blake December 27th, 2010 at 11:47 am

    LGY,

    Im cautiously optimistic about Joba. If Rothschild can help he and AJ then then that could be a huge factor…..however, I dont think you can really plan for that. You make moves and those things happen then that’s all the better…..you don’t make moves and those things don’t happen then that’s not good.

  9. pat December 27th, 2010 at 11:51 am

    “It is amazing how down some people are on this team.”

    “It?s amazing to me how some people are amazed that people would be down on the team”

    It’s amazing to me how often the same people can say the same things over and over again as if no one had already read it the first 15 times they wrote it.

  10. mick December 27th, 2010 at 11:52 am

    Those who are down on this team because they are 1 or 2 pitchers short are amazing!
    If Andy comes back, still down? Maybe they can bring back Javy, that buoyed a lot of people last year.

  11. mick December 27th, 2010 at 11:54 am

    It’s amazing to me how often the same people can say the same things over and over again as if no one had already read it the first 15 times they wrote it.
    ===================================================
    pat

    it’s amazing how little attention some people have gotten in their lives that they come here for it and make a nuisance of themself…

  12. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 11:55 am

    It’s amazing to me how some people are amazed that people would be down on the team……

    Lets review

    Orioles – Worse than the Yankees
    Blue Jays – Worse than the Yankees
    Rays – Worse than the Yankees
    Tigers – Worse than the Yankees
    Royals – Worse than the Yankees
    Indians – Worse than the Yankees
    Twins – Worse than the Yankees
    Mariners – Worse than the Yankees
    Angels – Worse than the Yankees
    Rangers – Worse than the Yankees
    Oakland – Worse than the Yankees

    White Sox – I’d say on par.
    Red Sox – Marginally better? Although Daisuke+lackey/beckett/wakefield back 2 might be worse than any rookies

    Who is the primary competition for the a yankees wild card spot? Who is the primary competition for a yankees AL east division spot?

    The Yankees are returning a league leading offense and a good bullpen. They are, realistically, going to acquire 1 more starter. It sucks they didn’t get Cliff Lee, but Cliff Lee was entirely a ‘elite pitcher available for only money lets get him’ player. It was not ‘omg wang is dead and mussina is old, we need an ace’ CC type get.

  13. Betsy December 27th, 2010 at 11:55 am

    I see, Pat – you don’t mind things being repeated as long as they are things you want to hear. Too bad if you don’t like my posts – ignore me. We’re all repeating the same things over and over – the alternative would be to shut this blog down until ST

  14. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 11:56 am

    I’m amazed by the number of people that are amazed.

  15. Betsy December 27th, 2010 at 11:57 am

    Some of those teams are very questionable, Jerkface………

  16. mick December 27th, 2010 at 11:59 am

    maybe i’m amazed at the negativity some display day after day,
    maybe i’m amazed….

  17. Tar December 27th, 2010 at 12:00 pm

    GB
    I’m amazed, that you are amazed by the number of people that are amazed.

  18. pat December 27th, 2010 at 12:00 pm

    mick

    We just need something new to happen so the subject can change.

    I’ve gotten to the point that I want to see them sign a lousy bench player so people could trash him for a day or 2 just to have new conversation. :wink:

  19. Asd December 27th, 2010 at 12:01 pm

    Whoa. Nice to see Brian putting his own stamp on things.

  20. mick December 27th, 2010 at 12:01 pm

    pat

    it’s the instant gratification society we live in…

  21. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 12:02 pm

    Tar December 27th, 2010 at 12:00 pm
    GB
    I’m amazed, that you are amazed by the number of people that are amazed.

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    Simply amazing post, Tar.

  22. 4 NYY December 27th, 2010 at 12:03 pm

    Beef up the bullpen, get Soria !!! THAT would be AMAZING !!!

    And I would not be against one of the young guns ( if they have a very good ST ) making it at as a starter. SEVERAL have a fair shot.

  23. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 12:03 pm

    Some of those teams are very questionable, Jerkface

    Then question them and lets have a discussion about it. It seems too many people are reading into the best case scenario media pandering for the Red Sox.

  24. mick December 27th, 2010 at 12:05 pm

    the best way to combat negativity is with logic

  25. blake December 27th, 2010 at 12:06 pm

    Discussing how the Yanks can potentially get better doesn’t mean they aren’t good. If Pettite returns or if they can make a deal for a quality replacement then they are probably the 2nd best team in the AL on paper with a lot of flexibility to make moves as need be throughout the year and with a potential x-factor type bat at Scranton.

  26. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 12:06 pm

    The Yanks still have 3 open slots on the 40 man roster. Who fills them and other than Corona, who gets dropped?

    http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....p?c_id=nyy

  27. pat December 27th, 2010 at 12:07 pm

    “… you don?t mind things being repeated as long as they are things you want to hear. ”

    No. That’s no better. Something opposed to what I think that is a new take and would make me question my take is a good thing. Repeating the same stuff over and over again is mindless writing and mindless reading.

    If I only read the posts of everyone who agreed with me all the time, I’d only be reading my posts and what fun would that be. :wink:

  28. G-C December 27th, 2010 at 12:09 pm

    Here’s my take on things.

    The Red Sox lost two guys who produced outstandingly at PREMIUM defensive positions last year. Beltre was a legitimate MVP candidate at third and Martinez offered well-above average punch from one of the most important defensive positions on the field.

    Both of those guys are gone. They added two players who are good, but play the two most worthless defensive positions on the field. Part of the advantage the Red Sox could have had is strength at premium defensive positions. What they have at catcher right now is instead a joke.

    Carl Crawford and Adrian Gonzalez are better players than Victor Martinez and Adrian Beltre, but I would be genuinely surprised if they outproduced what those two guys offered last year. Check the numbers. It’s not just me being a homer.

    I just don’t see how the Red Sox have really improved much this offseason. Beckett and Lackey better be ready to bring it because the chances of Buchholz performing like he did last year are about 10 % if he maintains his current peripherals. His ERA will be a lot closer to 5.00 than it will be to 2.00.

  29. Betsy December 27th, 2010 at 12:10 pm

    Jerkface, I would, but given the reaction to my posts, let’s just let it lie; we both made our points.

  30. 4 NYY December 27th, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    # mick December 27th, 2010 at 12:05 pm

    the best way to combat negativity is with logic
    ———————————————————————————————-

    Not amazing, but TRUE !

  31. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    “You can blame the Yankees all you want for Joba’s failure but you have nothing to back it up except that it is what you think.”

    maine yankee-

    i agree that every pitcher is different . david price and joba are emotionally two different pitchers. price is much more mature. but that’s all the more reason that joba should have been given more time and been brought along more slowly.

    it’s not just physically but also mentally that joba needed more patience. he really got too much too soon. all that fame so fast seemed to tell joba that he didn’t need to work hard.

    i’m not totally in the dark as far as how pitchers are developed. i really did catch a triple a guy one whole winter before he started the mlb all star game that next summer. the time that pitcher spent with the winter team i was with did impact him. it was just a random thing the kid ended up there.

    he was exposed to an amazing array of veteran mlb pitchers and coaches , many of whom took time and worked with the kid . when you are close to the game, you see that it isn’t rocket science developing these kids.

    they are on their own much more than you think. that was a long time ago , but i don’t think huge advances have been made in developing pitchers. rick peterson , tony cloninger, and bruce kison were some of the pitchers and coaches who were around that kid.

    i do think he got some advice from them that stuck for about 6 months. he was never as good after that as that first half summer.

    coaching matters and it’s elusive. most organizations have a few guys actually coaching so things are more limited than you’d think.

    as much as statistical analysis has progressed, the actual coaching hasn’t changed as much as you’d expect with the technology available.

    i just think the yankees are way behind the times compared to where they could be considering their resources.

  32. pat December 27th, 2010 at 12:12 pm

    GB

    Other than Prior, who else have they given minor league/ST invite deals to? That might fill a 40 man slot or 2.

  33. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 12:13 pm

    The last time the Yankees had 5 competent starters to open the season was 2010, and we know how that turned out. 2009 saw the team with two pitchers returning from injury being propped up by 3 pitchers, an old guy, an ace, and an up and down injury prone starter. All back throughout the years the Yankee rotations have been dreadful, even on opening day.

    Man what were you people thinking when we had Pavano and Wright still in the rotation?

    If Pettitte returns the Yankees will be 100% fine in my estimation, but even if he doesn’t they will still succeed. And I’d rather have a line of players breaking into the majors than what Jaret Wright and Darrel Rasner.

  34. blake December 27th, 2010 at 12:15 pm

    Those that are just giving the Red Sox the AL pennant are assuming away a lot….there are a lot of things on that team that could go badly wrong just as they did last year. If they don’t get more from the middle and back end of their rotation and bullpen then Adrian Gonzalez (AKA the greatest baseball player who ever lived) and Crawford really aren’t going to matter all that much.

  35. 108 stitches December 27th, 2010 at 12:16 pm

    I can’t figure the team’s fixation with Mitre other than he’s 2 years removed from surgery.
    There were times last season during August – September when he wasn’t used yet Gaudin was getting the call more than he should have been especially when Aceves was out for the year.
    Like Chamberlain, Mitre would have to build up arm strength to be considered for use as a starter.

  36. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 12:17 pm

    As much as I want Soriano to be scooped up by the Yankees, the practical realist in me says it will never, ever happen. Not as long as Soriano wants a 3-year deal for over $40 million.

  37. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 12:23 pm

    pat December 27th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
    GB

    Other than Prior, who else have they given minor league/ST invite deals to? That might fill a 40 man slot or 2.

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    pat, they may hold a spot for Prior until ST…not sure. I assume that a spot for a starter like Pettitte and a bullpenner will fill two slots and the other one will go to Montero. I’m guessing that maybe Fish and Corona get knocked off of the list and with Turpen. Either Russo or Curtis might get knocked out if Phelps and or Mitchell get called.

    on the edge of being dropped:

    Fish, Turpen, Corona, Russo and Curtis

    on the edge of being added:

    Mitchell, Phelps, and Montero, along with onw starter and one reliever

  38. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 12:23 pm

    Free agent relief pitcher tracker – an excellent recap of who is out there with details.

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/freeagents/_/position/rp

  39. Pauldanand December 27th, 2010 at 12:24 pm

    I am neither amazed nor cautiously optimistic.

  40. G-C December 27th, 2010 at 12:25 pm

    The rotations that the Yankees threw out there from 1998-2003 were special. I still consider 2002 and 2003 Dynasty years simply by virtue of those pitching staffs.

    In 1998 it was Cone, Wells, Pettitte, Hernandez, Irabu
    In 2003 it was Mussina, Clemens, Pettitte, Wells, Weaver

    Two morals to the story.

    1) It’s really difficult to build a rotation with 4 guys who you can bank on to win 15 + games, have an ERA ~4.00 or below, and pitch 200 innings.

    2) The fifth starter slot really doesn’t matter at all when you can front that guy with reliable starters.

    The Yankees still haven’t quite rebuilt their rotation since Clemens and Pettitte left after 2003. Its really amazing, and shows you how fickle starting pitching can really be. Eight years after losing those two, the organization still hasn’t been able to build a rotation quite that good. We’ve still managed to win a championship in absence of that, and I believe we’re building back towards that model.

    It takes time, however. I think we’ve all seen that in most cases, big money FA signings, unless you are getting an elite proven talent, aren’t necessarily the way to do that. Its some shrewd moves and a lot of luck.

    We’ve got the makings of a great rotation for the next five years with Sabathia and Hughes in front. it’s a shame that Joba and IPK aren’t a part of that mix, but we’ve got three (4 if you include Phelps) high ceiling arms who are capable of forcing their way into NY in the next couple seasons.

  41. mick December 27th, 2010 at 12:26 pm

    Mitre is holding Aceves place until he might return.
    He’s a 6th starter/long man.
    Probably why they got rid of Moseley (cheaper).

  42. Pauldanand December 27th, 2010 at 12:27 pm

    I am shocked.
    1) about the tiny blades they put on trash trucks and call them snow plows
    2) the hysteria 12 inches of snow causes
    3) How the Yankees have gone to pot since The Boss died
    4) How smug Pete Abe is now.

  43. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 12:30 pm

    pat, I didn’t answer your question very well. here’s the invitees to ST, so far.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/team/roster_nri.jsp?c_id=nyy

  44. mick December 27th, 2010 at 12:31 pm

    Prior was invited a s a RP to ST, not a starter, correct?

  45. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 12:32 pm

    on the edge of being dropped:

    Fish, Turpen, Corona, Russo and Curtis

    on the edge of being added:

    Mitchell, Phelps, and Montero, along with onw starter and one reliever

    Cash loves to clear the 40 man with 2-1,3-1 trades as well. That is always a possibility. Yankees will have a lot of roster flexibility upcoming, especially if they can get Brackman to be effective in the majors. He is just eating up a spot right now.

  46. clownthrowindown December 27th, 2010 at 12:35 pm

    Jerkface,

    You miss the point about how the weak Yankee staff will torpedo their playoff chances. It doesn’t matter if they are a better team than Chicago, Minnesota or Detroit (whoever ends up in 2nd).

    Its not who is better but who has a better record. NY has to battle the East with a weak staff and hope it ends up with a better record than a team that spends most of its time facing the Central.

    So though NY may be better head to head against one of those teams, it really is irrelevant when it comes to them trying to be the wild card again.

  47. stuart a December 27th, 2010 at 12:38 pm

    pass on blanton. stinks and makes a lot of money. francis would cost a lot less.

    blanton also has 2 years on his deal, why would they get that pievce of garbage and an expensive piece BTW.

  48. Warning Track Power December 27th, 2010 at 12:38 pm

    Brian-
    The alternatives are very weak. I would rather begin the season with Nova or Mitre in the rotation, versus having to stomach a hurler like Blanton or Freddy Garcia.

  49. mick December 27th, 2010 at 12:40 pm

    Chicago, Minn and Det will knock each other off in a possibly tougher division than the AL East with TB on the decline. Only one of those 3 teams should win 90 games.
    Nyy and rs are similar in that they both have questionable pitching. They should both win 90 games.

  50. blake December 27th, 2010 at 12:40 pm

    The AL central will have 3 competitve teams in it this year that will beat up on one another as will the AL west. Really the only bad teams in the AL this year might be the Mariners, Indians, and Royals.

  51. CCBiggs December 27th, 2010 at 12:41 pm

    If the Yankee minor league system is even half as deep as they say it is, the Yanks should be able to put together a very attractive trade package to get a solid major league starter. Couldn’t the Yanks put together a deal featuring Montero, Nova (and maybe Joba) in exchange for a very good major league starter? Why not?

  52. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 12:42 pm

    You miss the point about how the weak Yankee staff will torpedo their playoff chances. It doesn’t matter if they are a better team than Chicago, Minnesota or Detroit (whoever ends up in 2nd).

    Its not who is better but who has a better record. NY has to battle the East with a weak staff and hope it ends up with a better record than a team that spends most of its time facing the Central.

    You are a troll, and also missing the point. The Yankees offense and current rotation is already better than those teams listed. No team sweeps a division series, with the exception of Boston v Orioles. Regardless of how many times the royals and whitesox and indians and whomever play, they will make records near .500 or slightly better/worse. The Orioles and Jays are going to be worse than the Twins and the White Sox, and the Rays may end up there too (because their offense is going to be atrocious and their pitching isn’t as great as everyone would like to think).

    The Yankees will once again beat those teams, or play .500, or slightly under, but they will make their bread facing all the other teams like they usually do.

    The divisions have been the same story for the past 5 years, and the only thing that stopped the Yankees from making the playoffs was an injury riddled offense. And that offense did not have the luxury of stepping in a premiere hitting talent or having a depth of starting pitching to trade from.

    Now fly away troll.

  53. Warning Track Power December 27th, 2010 at 12:43 pm

    ccbiggs-
    define a “solid major league starter”. after doing so, please list the names available that fall into the category.
    after accomplishing that, ask yourself if you would trade Montero, Nova and perhaps Joba in exchange for this “solid starter.

  54. austinmac December 27th, 2010 at 12:44 pm

    Mick,

    Aceves has been released. He could be picked up again, but he is on the market as I understand it.

  55. G-C December 27th, 2010 at 12:46 pm

    Still a huge go-get Wandy Rodriguez fan.

    Lefty who misses a lot of bats and doesn’t walk many. Smallish, but home runs have never been a problem, even when he wasn’t good. He’s given up 37 homers over 400 innings the last two seasons. He makes a very reasonable salary and has a ~3.40 ERA over the past three seasons.

    I think Wandy is going to end up being that surprise, dark horse acquisition. If the Yankees can couple a trade for him with Pettitte’s return, the rotation instantly goes from being a bit unsteady to a major strength.

  56. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 12:46 pm

    If the Yankee minor league system is even half as deep as they say it is, the Yanks should be able to put together a very attractive trade package to get a solid major league starter. Couldn’t the Yanks put together a deal featuring Montero, Nova (and maybe Joba) in exchange for a very good major league starter? Why not?

    The pitchers Montero is worth are not available, and the Yankees could very well be looking at deals which would not require Montero but the price is prohibitive. At some point the return you’re looking to get on the pitcher doesn’t justify the cost. They might trade for Fausto Carmona, who has not been very consistent, and they may lose 3 minor league players (including Nova). Now Nova might be able to give you 90% of Carmona’s output at the major league level.

    In that case, its not a very good trade.

    There just isn’t a lot out there.

  57. Irreverent Discourse December 27th, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    WOOOOO stranded in Florida til Friday.

  58. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    I think Wandy Rodriguez is a good trade target. Perhaps they can dump Romine+ for him and Keppinger.

    They really should go after Keppinger though. Contact / patient hitter. Doesn’t have power but will get on base. And can back up the diamond.

  59. blake December 27th, 2010 at 12:49 pm

    I like Wandy and Keppinger if they could make that happen by dealing excess.

  60. stuart a December 27th, 2010 at 12:49 pm

    the problem are there are no solid major league starters avaialble.

    toronto may be pretty good. tampa will be down. baltimore will be better but they have a long way to go.

    boston will be good but not exactly the 98 yanks… lackey and beckett stunk last year and no longer can dominate. there catcher is whomever, jenks was bad last year and so was papelbum. they are a talented team but not unbeatable.. without pettitte the yanks need serious help with him they will be fine…..need one of the B’s to breakout big time hopefully Brackman.

  61. pat December 27th, 2010 at 12:49 pm

    Thanks GB.

    I’m making Sisco my dark horse candidate.

    I remember him being a Farnsworth type- big as a mountain, lots of velocity but not quite sure where it’s going all the time.

  62. mick December 27th, 2010 at 12:50 pm

    Not much of a market for an injury prone middle reliever. I can see him coming back to us at a pay cut, of course. Back problems could prevent him .

  63. stuart a December 27th, 2010 at 12:51 pm

    fAUSTO carmona at the right price is a risk worth taking. fairly young not real expensive with upside….

    montero would not go with him and the indians stud young catcher hurt his knee last year so maybe some excess catching prospects would help….

  64. G-C December 27th, 2010 at 12:52 pm

    “I think Wandy Rodriguez is a good trade target. Perhaps they can dump Romine+ for him and Keppinger.

    They really should go after Keppinger though. Contact / patient hitter. Doesn’t have power but will get on base. And can back up the diamond.”

    ________________________________________________

    Jerk, such a package would instantly upgrade this team on two levels.

    Getting Keppinger eliminates the need to have Pena throwing out a .200/.220/.300 line over 200 + plate appearances. He’s a legitimate automatic out. Its time that Cashman stopped nickling and diming the bench because with Arod and Jeter aging, that primary utility guy is going to get his reps. And it would be awfully beneficial if he could hit better than a pitcher would out of that slot.

    J.R. Towles has been a disaster in Houston. A Romine-fronted package could work.

    I would have no problem doing Romine + Nova for Rodriguez and Keppinger.

  65. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    pat December 27th, 2010 at 12:49 pm
    Thanks GB.

    I’m making Sisco my dark horse candidate.

    I remember him being a Farnsworth type- big as a mountain, lots of velocity but not quite sure where it’s going all the time.

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    Sisco’s advantage is being left handed. He’s also doing pretty well in the Mexican Winter League this year. He should get one more start before the season ends on Thursday. And he is. as you say, huge. The Yanks have quite a few pitchers that are 6?8? and over.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/milb/stats/…..pid=434878

  66. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 1:01 pm

    Non-related but love this quote!

    “The Mets have a better chance of Oliver Perez throwing a three-hit shutout to win the World Series than they do of getting the NHL to award the Winter Classic to Citi Field,” writes Larry Brooks in the New York Post.

  67. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 1:04 pm

    “The last time the Yankees had 5 competent starters to open the season was 2010, and we know how that turned out”

    jerkface-

    does a team really need to have 5 good starters to get to the playoffs?

    and even if it does , how does it do it year after year when pitchers like beckett gets signed to long contracts that work for a few years and then are liabilities?

    almost all regular season rotations are snapshots in time. it’s almost impossible to hold onto them.

    where i think a team needs three really good pitchers is the playoffs.

    the whole rotation challenge is really two different seasons- the regular season and then the playoff season.

    i have no problem every year bringing up a young guy who’s paid his dues at triple A for the fourth or fifth spot each year.

    i agree that signing a guy that looks good on paper like vazquez can be deceptive and often is. and the problem when a guy like that underperforms he’s making too much to release. the triple a guys who are battle tested down there at least can be sent back with no big financial hit.

    the problem the yankees are in right now is the unknown of pettitte and the triple a guys really aren’t ready. we don’t have a hellickson ready to throw in that 4th or fifth spot.

  68. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 1:05 pm

    G-C December 27th, 2010 at 12:52 pm
    “I think Wandy Rodriguez is a good trade target. Perhaps they can dump Romine+ for him and Keppinger.

    They really should go after Keppinger though. Contact / patient hitter. Doesn’t have power but will get on base. And can back up the diamond.”

    ________________________________________________

    Jerk, such a package would instantly upgrade this team on two levels.

    Getting Keppinger eliminates the need to have Pena throwing out a .200/.220/.300 line over 200 + plate appearances. He’s a legitimate automatic out. Its time that Cashman stopped nickling and diming the bench because with Arod and Jeter aging, that primary utility guy is going to get his reps. And it would be awfully beneficial if he could hit better than a pitcher would out of that slot.

    J.R. Towles has been a disaster in Houston. A Romine-fronted package could work.

    I would have no problem doing Romine + Nova for Rodriguez and Keppinger.

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    Why would you trade Romine AND Nova? Nova would be the #5 starter for the time being and wasting one highly valued position player (catcher) for a utility player and a one year rental would be a waste and then you want to add a good, young pitcher? Not happening.

  69. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 1:06 pm

    wow. just went outside. the wind and snow is firing back up here on cape cod- 40-50 mph!!!

  70. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 1:10 pm

    randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 1:06 pm
    wow. just went outside. the wind and snow is firing back up here on cape cod- 40-50 mph!!!

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    The Home lets you go outside when you want, without a keeper?

  71. 86w183 December 27th, 2010 at 1:10 pm

    I’m a big fan of acquiring Carmona depending on price. He’s very talented and was very good last year. He’s only 27 and might love the idea of being reunited with CC Sabathia. He also has a team friendly contract.

    He would probably cost a very nice package of players… Nova, Romine and either Niunez or Laird perhaps?

    I also like the idea of pursuing Wandy Rodriguez if Pettite retires and became available.

  72. Warning Track Power December 27th, 2010 at 1:10 pm

    Cashman can not trade for a starting pitcher if the pitcher’s available are not worth much.

    That being said, the Yankees can begin ST with the starter’s they have today and a trade can always be made around June, July or August.

    I’m ok with that.

  73. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 1:13 pm

    Can’t see NYYs unloading either Laird or Nunez in any deal. They are the only near ready to go insurance policies for short and third base with any long term injuries happen.

  74. J. Alfred Prufrock December 27th, 2010 at 1:15 pm

    blake December 27th, 2010 at 12:06 pm
    Discussing how the Yanks can potentially get better doesn’t mean they aren’t good. If Pettite returns or if they can make a deal for a quality replacement then they are probably the 2nd best team in the AL on paper with a lot of flexibility to make moves as need be throughout the year and with a potential x-factor type bat at Scranton.

    ////I’m not sure why you’re conceding “best” team to Boston.how is it that they are better than us?it’s laughable to me that some are just assume Buccholz is legit as that team’s No. 2,when Hughes is being considered a question mark. Hughes has better K & BB rates than Buccholz.i’m not conceding anything in the SP department to them,nor lineups.

    I think some of you are rightfully realizing that AGon and Crawford are not to be dismissed lightly,but seem to have completely forgotten who WE have:Cano, anyone? Alex Rodriguez?? Teixeira?Posada carefree from daily grind of catching,probably much healthier &swingin from both sides of the plate?Jesus Montero added to that group??Jeter surely having a season closer to 2009 than 2010,his worst ever??let’s not forget Swisher,who was great in the season last year.Granderson probably pops 30 in 2011 and Gardner to run against teams?Exactly why should we take a backseat to Boston?In ANY category?our BP is going to be better than theirs too,look for ABrack to bring a highend arm and depth later in the season.Boston better?don’t see it.

  75. Warning Track Power December 27th, 2010 at 1:15 pm

    GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 1:13 pm
    Can’t see NYYs unloading either Laird or Nunez in any deal. They are the only near ready to go insurance policies for short and third base with any long term injuries happen.

    I can not agree more.
    Unless a miracle occurs, I believe Cashman is going to remain patient and look to upgrade the team sometime this summer.
    By that time teams that are pretenders will be exposed and ready to deal “top flight” players.

  76. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 1:23 pm

    The Home lets you go outside when you want, without a keeper?”

    gb7-

    the problem is getting back in when they barricade the door from the inside.

    don’t worry though. i won’t freeze out here because all that hot air coming from your comments on my iphone are keeping me warm.

  77. blake December 27th, 2010 at 1:24 pm

    Prufrock,

    Im not conceding anything to Boston and said as much in another post…..they have a very good team potential but there are a lot of things that could go wrong quickly on that team just s it did last year.

  78. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 1:24 pm

    WTP, when the players and teams start exchanging arbitration numbers, a lot of names are going to pop up for cheap trades.

  79. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 1:27 pm

    randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 1:23 pm
    The Home lets you go outside when you want, without a keeper?”

    gb7-

    the problem is getting back in when they barricade the door from the inside.

    don’t worry though. i won’t freeze out here because all that hot air coming from your comments on my iphone are keeping me warm.

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    Then I have proven you wrong when you said I was a good for nothing dirty $@&*%#.

  80. tyanksfan36 December 27th, 2010 at 1:27 pm

    J Alfred Prufrock

    Where did Blake say that Boston was the best team in the AL. He could have been referring to Minnesota od some other team. I don’t think that Boston is the best. The Rays had crawford for all those years and were only good competition in 2010 and 2008. I don’t think he makes Boston that much better.

  81. clownthrowindown December 27th, 2010 at 1:27 pm

    Jerkface,

    of all the folks in denial, none are funnier than you with your foolish agggressiveness and stubborn attitude. Is there anything that ever jars you into a realistic perspective? The Yankees have a horrible rotation, no EIG, an over the hill core, overrated prospects and a GM who does nothing. You are like the emperor with his new clothes lmao.

  82. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 1:30 pm

    Please don’t troll.

  83. J. Alfred Prufrock December 27th, 2010 at 1:30 pm

    blake December 27th, 2010 at 1:24 pm
    Prufrock,

    Im not conceding anything to Boston and said as much in another post…..they have a very good team potential but there are a lot of things that could go wrong quickly on that team just s it did last year.

    ///I saw the second post after responding to the first.i’m more in tune with the second one.

  84. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    Looks like there are few teams willing to risk $30-$33 mil over 3 years on Pavano. He may get the $10-$11 mil but not for more than one year. He and Manny Ramirez are two that you don’t give long term deals to. Not sure there will be more than a 2 year deal for Beltre, either.

  85. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    http://itsaboutthemoney.net/ar.....-to-worry/

  86. 86w183 December 27th, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    It seems a lot of people would like to see the Yankees acquire a starting pitcher…. as long as it doesn’t cost Montero, Romine, Nova, Noesi, Banuelos, Betances, Brackman, Nunez, Sanchez, Laird, Phelps or Warren.

    Gee I wonder what kind of starter the Yanks could acquire by dangling Kevin Russo, Francisco Cervelli, Colin Curtis and Zack Segovia?

  87. G-C December 27th, 2010 at 1:32 pm

    GB, I’m being realistic in that proposal.

    Wandy Rodriguez is a damn good left handed starter who is only 31 years old. Nova has thrown a grand total of 42 major league innings and was probably a three star prospect going into last year.

    I’m not sure you can get Wandy Rodriguez for chump change. Being one of the more realistic people on this board, I think you can understand that perspective. Don’t think a package with just Romine (who took a step back last year) would necessarily get it done.

  88. blake December 27th, 2010 at 1:32 pm

    The season doesn’t start today. The offseason isn’t over yet. When it is we can debate who looks the best going into the season…..regardless the Yanks ave a very talented team and a farm system that’s in better health than it has been in years.

  89. J. Alfred Prufrock December 27th, 2010 at 1:32 pm

    tyanksfan36 December 27th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
    J Alfred Prufrock

    Where did Blake say that Boston was the best team in the AL. He could have been referring to Minnesota od some other team.

    ///I doubt he was referring to Minnesota,but i certainly won’t presume to speak for another commenter here.

  90. G-C December 27th, 2010 at 1:34 pm

    Plus, I don’t think the Yankees would lose anything by going with Phelps or Noesi over Nova in the fifth spot, presuming a rotation of Sabathia/Hughes/Pettitte/Wandy/#5.

    I like both of those guys better than I do Nova.

  91. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 1:34 pm

    the problem the yankees are in right now is the unknown of pettitte and the triple a guys really aren’t ready. we don’t have a hellickson ready to throw in that 4th or fifth spot.

    I agree with you that the regular season and post season are different, but lets not worry about the postseason right now because we have all season to attack that. Nova is our hellickson. 300 innings between AA and AAA with major league time.

    Mitchell, Noesi, and Phelps are guys that if they were ‘hellicksoned’ would get looks starting in July and should be counted out for spring. But once they get 100 or so innings in the minors, they will be just like Hellickson in terms of experience.

    So until then we need 1 of: a FA, trade, pettitte, or mitre.

  92. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 1:37 pm

    “Then I have proven you wrong when you said I was a good for nothing dirty $@&*%#.”

    gb7-

    hey don’t get mad at me. next time you apply to get in the home, don’t make the mistake of using me for a reference.

  93. blake December 27th, 2010 at 1:38 pm

    86,

    I get what you’re saying but realistically are all those pitchers going to find a spot in the Yankee rotation? There just wont be room for them all….if Pettite comes back then I think they are ok going into the season as is with the rotation, if he doesn’t then I think they need another solid major league arm to log innings and save the bullpen. They have some excess to deal from…..he key is dealing the right guys.

  94. DaSaint007 December 27th, 2010 at 1:40 pm

    Pavano and Beltre have become case studies in the value of short-term contracts.
    The risk-reward equation doesn’t work well for either on long-term deals.

  95. DaSaint007 December 27th, 2010 at 1:41 pm

    Ok, let me throw myself to the wolves:

    Who would do Pavano for 1 year and $10M?

  96. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 1:42 pm

    Who would do Pavano for 1 year and $10M?

    In a heartbeat. The problem with pavano is that he is seeking and will likely get a 3 year deal.

  97. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 1:43 pm

    It has nothing to do with not wanting to trade the minor leaguers. it has to do with putting multiple top quality minor leagers in a trade for at best a utility infielder and an average 32 year old pitcher for one year’s worth of work.

  98. stuart a December 27th, 2010 at 1:44 pm

    why trade nova for carmona or rodriguez?? makes no sense.. rodriguez being 31 means he is a 1 year solution…

    the idea is to keep nova and add to it and trade 2nd tier talent(Phelps etc.) for a pitching help.

    trading nova for carmona means they still are short for the big club in starting pitching………

    wandy in the al east would be a big change to his #’s……..

  99. stuart a December 27th, 2010 at 1:45 pm

    pavano will never pitch for the yanks.

    zero chance…..ZERO

  100. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 1:45 pm

    randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 1:37 pm
    “Then I have proven you wrong when you said I was a good for nothing dirty $@&*%#.”

    gb7-

    hey don’t get mad at me. next time you apply to get in the home, don’t make the mistake of using me for a reference.

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    I’m not sure that I’d want to be in a home that would allow you in….or me for that matter.

  101. blake December 27th, 2010 at 1:45 pm

    If the market collapsed for Beltre would he make the Yankees better on a 2 or 3 year deal. That would be messy and is highly unlikely but in a vacuum I think it would.

  102. Yankee Trader December 27th, 2010 at 1:45 pm

    It would certainly be nice to find another lefty starter if Pettitte retires. Another possibility could be FA lefty Chris Capuano, who has recovered from TJ surgery [twice] and pitched pretty well for the Brewers upon his return, especially toward the end of the year.

    Leo Nunez is arb eligible and could be Marlin trade bait after making 2M last year. Might be worth trading for, rather than getting Fuentes, Rauch, or Gregg if they’re getting 3 year offers.

  103. DaSaint007 December 27th, 2010 at 1:48 pm

    stuart a December 27th, 2010 at 1:45 pm
    pavano will never pitch for the yanks.

    zero chance…..ZERO
    —————————————-

    Did you say that before or after Javy was traded for?

  104. Your Worst Nightmare December 27th, 2010 at 1:50 pm

    The total lack of addressing the pitching staff is a poor choice by management.

  105. Yankee Trader December 27th, 2010 at 1:51 pm

    I’d rather have Zambrano and hand out tasers to his teammates for protection than have “Idle” back in the Yankee locker room as a disruptive force .

  106. DaSaint007 December 27th, 2010 at 1:52 pm

    Stuart,

    I’m no fan of the American Idle (Pavano), but let’s be realistic:
    1. Andy is probably retiring.
    2. Mitre is penciled in as our #4 starter.
    3. Our minor league system is stocked with talent, but not quite ready for this season.
    4. We’re rightfully reluctant to trade the farm for a stopgap pitcher.
    5. He’s proven that he’s recovered from his shadow or whatever.
    6. He’s been successful the past 2 seasons.
    7. He only costs money.

    Now granted, as Face said, he wants a multi-year deal, but that notwithstanding, if it were possible, I’d do it. I don’t want to cut off my nose to spite my face. Winnng matters.

  107. DaSaint007 December 27th, 2010 at 1:53 pm

    Frankly, I’d rather trade for Edwin Jackson or Mark Buehrle than sign Pavano.

  108. blake December 27th, 2010 at 1:54 pm

    I don’t think Pavano would come back to Ny….especially for a 1 year deal when he has 2 years offers elsewhere.

  109. 108 stitches December 27th, 2010 at 1:57 pm

    Wandy Rodriquez would be a 1-year solution and add another LH to the rotation. He’s up for his final year of arbitration before becoming a FA after 2011.
    It bides time for Banuelos to get in another year and possibly as high as AAA by the end of the 2011 season.
    At the same time, add Jeff Keppinger in the deal and flexability in the infield gets better.
    Cashman may be waiting for Rodriquez’s arbitration to get settled by Houston before working a deal.

  110. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 1:58 pm

    “I don’t think the Yankees would lose anything by going with Phelps or Noesi over Nova in the fifth spot, presuming a rotation of Sabathia/Hughes/Pettitte/Wandy/#5.”

    G-C

    i don’t see that because nova had 23 starts last year at scranton.
    noesi had 3. phelps had 11 starts which is better, but still not a lot.

    the problem with nova last year when he came up was the short outings which taxed the bullpen.

    if the yankees are going to go with nova and possibly another young guy if injuries happen they are going to really need to beef up the bullpen.

    maybe the best thing cashman is doing is getting a lot of young arms who can be effective in the bullpen for short periods even though they don’t have enough to them to start.

    i heard madden of the rays saying that the key to his team in 2011 is getting a really good bullpen.
    maybe that is a really good strategy to do each year for any team with starters contracts going trough the roof.

    how can you go with a few young cheap starters if you don’t also beef up the bullpen?
    the two have to go hand in hand.

  111. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 2:01 pm

    i heard madden of the rays saying that the key to his team in 2011 is getting a really good bullpen.
    maybe that is a really good strategy to do each year for any team with starters contracts going trough the roof.

    how can you go with a few young cheap starters if you don’t also beef up the bullpen?
    the two have to go hand in hand.

    The Yankees can have a good bullpen, but if they do it the rays way you won’t be seeing Soriano et al in the BP. They traded Bartlett for a bunch of relievers and signed low money guys.

  112. 86w183 December 27th, 2010 at 2:05 pm

    I was being sarcastic about all the “prospect huggers” who are convinced each and every decent guy is too valuable to move.

    My preference is Carmona, not Rodriguez and I’d be willing to pay a pretty high price. It would be interesting to find out what that price might be.

    there’s no doubt in my mind that Cashman has something close to being in place should Pettite step away and that he’s leaning towards letting the young guys battle for the no. 5 spot if Andy returns.

  113. Yankee Trader December 27th, 2010 at 2:10 pm

    http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/p.....010/533047

    Situational stats for Wandy Rodriguez. Poor first 3 months, clobbered by the Yankees, and has pitched to a >5.0 ERA in interleague games. However the lefties on the FA market all have significant holes-Francis, Doug Davis, Chris Capuano.

    Still hoping that Pettitte goes for 1 more year and some combo of Nova/Noesi/Phelps as 5th starter, with another reliable quality bullpen arm.

  114. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 2:13 pm

    Randy I…..Cashman must address the bullpen…….I have no problem with Nova in the 5 slot, in fact I’m looking forward to seeing him mature and hopefully give the club 28 starts…….It’s who throws before AJ and after Hughes that is the great concern……..Watch for Brackman to make a big impact in the pen come late July early August……

  115. Yankee Trader December 27th, 2010 at 2:16 pm

    Carmona-Does he have another quality pitch besides the sinker? If you are patient with the sinker and can lay off those diving into the dirt, until the pitcher starts bringing it up in the zone, you can be successful. Strategy used by the Indians in the playoffs against Wang and he lost both his starts.

    Just not sold on him.

  116. Yankee Trader December 27th, 2010 at 2:18 pm

    Pat M.-

    Does arb eligible Leo Nunez do anything for you? Might Brackman make the pen out of spring training?

  117. Your Worst Nightmare December 27th, 2010 at 2:21 pm

    Saint, I hope that Pavano does not come back to NY. His teammates disliked him and he quit on the team more than once. He would be at a disadvantage right from the start if he came back.

  118. Your Worst Nightmare December 27th, 2010 at 2:23 pm

    Trader, Carmona would be a nice addition with upside if the price was right. More than likely Cleveland would hold Cashman up though knowing the urgent need for pitching.

  119. mick December 27th, 2010 at 2:26 pm

    If we wait for an Andy retirement notice, the price goes even higher..

  120. blake December 27th, 2010 at 2:33 pm

    86,

    my bad….went right over my head.

  121. Your Worst Nightmare December 27th, 2010 at 2:43 pm

    Mick, seriously don’t you think that Pettitte is gone ? I do.

  122. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 2:51 pm

    “.I have no problem with Nova in the 5 slot, in fact I’m looking forward to seeing him mature and hopefully give the club 28 starts”.

    pat m-

    i think he’s had enough experience at triple a( plus his end of the season mlb experience) to have a decent chance to do well as a fifth starter in 2011. i enjoyed watching him in his starts last year.

    with starting pitching contracts going crazy this really is a strange time right now. with all teams having cash from revenue sharing and there being lots of revenue to share, the yankees can’t just buy a mussina or a sabathia every year or even every other year.

    even a team like philly could be screwed if their long term contract to lee goes bad because of injury or aging. the red sox are locked into a lot of dead weight relative to the player contracts with beckett, matsuzaka, and lackey .

    i think in this cash flush time if a team can get three good starters. that that is all you can hope for. the last two probably have to come from the minor league system or getting good luck with a journeyman.

  123. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 2:51 pm

    Trader……Brackman could make the club when it breaks camp, however the one old scout that just loves Brackman thinks he could but he thinks it’ll be after the deadline……He’s the old boy who told me last year that Brackman would open many eyes in 2010……He was right…..

  124. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 2:53 pm

    Tin Cup….I understand it’s not a very popular option here, but I’d look into Zambrano’s cost……..

  125. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 2:53 pm

    Check out these outstanding stats from Keppinger in 2010!

    * He hit .304 with an .810 OPS against left-handers.

    ” With RISP he hit .307 with a .411 OBP and an .806 OPS.

    * With the bases loaded he hit .385 with a .400 OBP and a 1.015 OPS.

  126. Vineyard Yankee December 27th, 2010 at 2:56 pm

    WCYF:

    Keppinger or Hairston Jr. ? Do you have the stats on Jr. ? I’m lazy today if you wouldn’t mind please kind sir.

  127. MaineYankee December 27th, 2010 at 2:58 pm

    Pat M

    I’m with you. I think Nova is worth a shot at 5.

  128. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 2:59 pm

    Lazy! You guys in Sonoma County kill me! Cashman needs to sign Keppinger. We know what Hairston can do.

  129. blake December 27th, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    Im fine with Nova as the 5. I just think if Pettite retires then they need to replace him.

  130. yankee21 December 27th, 2010 at 3:04 pm

    As good as Keppinger is, Keppinger did not play any 3B in 2010, and has played 23 games at SS the last two years.

    NYY primarily needs a guy who can spell Arod and Jeter. Why can’t Laird and Nunez do this?

    Cano, unless he gets banged up, is good for 155+ games a year, so no b/up 2B needed.

    Unless NY evaluates Keppinger as capable of handling SS/3B in a b/up role, I do not see the fit, despite his good bat.

  131. blake December 27th, 2010 at 3:04 pm

    Pat M,
    If Zambrano’s cost makes sense then he’s worth a look if Andy retires……if Andy is back then I think Id just stand pat and save that money to use elsewhere.

  132. Vineyard Yankee December 27th, 2010 at 3:07 pm

    Wow……….I just thought maybe you could be nice since it was the holidays and do a small stat comparison on the two. Grinch.

  133. Dill Pickler December 27th, 2010 at 3:07 pm

    Anyone looks appealing next to Sergio Mitre in the rotation.

    Of course, Mitre will probably still end up there anyway, after Burnett is carted off to Bellevue on a gurney.

  134. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 3:08 pm

    “.I understand it’s not a very popular option here, but I’d look into Zambrano’s cost……”

    pat m-

    i would too if andy retires because it’d be a short term commitment.

    i don’t worry about zambrano being a headcase because the yankees have enough veteran presence to bring out the best in him as far as behavior.

    it would also be fun watching red sox nation hate on him.

    if he was good, he’d turn into villain #1 for them.

  135. Joe from Long Island December 27th, 2010 at 3:08 pm

    GB – Hi, there. Hope you’re well.

    I’m preparing a presentation for tomorrow, and I want to throw in a baseball reference. How many days till ST?

  136. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 3:09 pm

    As good as Keppinger is, Keppinger did not play any 3B in 2010, and has played 23 games at SS the last two years.

    NYY primarily needs a guy who can spell Arod and Jeter. Why can’t Laird and Nunez do this?

    But in 2008 he was the starting SS on the Reds. He came to houston and Tejada was at SS. He isn’t gonna forget how to play SS just because he ain’t played many games there last year or the year before.

    He can backup SS and 2B and if he can back up those you could count on him to backup 3b. Or keep Nunez AND keppinger on the roster and let Nunez backup third. Or bring Laird up.

    Keppinger is a huge get and should not be expensive as a trade target as he has become redundant.

  137. Vineyard Yankee December 27th, 2010 at 3:12 pm

    Zambrano is slated to earn approx. $ 18 million plus for the next 3 years. 2013 is a vested option year.

  138. clownthrowindown December 27th, 2010 at 3:16 pm

    Here Jerkface…

    From an unbiased writer. Everyone except you and some others in Yankeeland fail to recognize the Yankees have no pitching. But then again, everyone in the media is anti-Yankee (unless they are Yankee blog writers)?????

    “Here’s how they’d rate if the 2011 season were to start today (With 2010 records and late regular-season rankings):

    1. Boston Red Sox (89-73; Previous: 11) – Carl Crawford(notes) says his heart is in Boston. In case that’s not enough, he brought along a crate of Angels’ hearts, too.”

    http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/ne.....ings122310

  139. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 3:17 pm

    “Pat M

    I’m with you. I think Nova is worth a shot at 5.”

    pat m-

    the problem with maine yankee is from where he’s from that he might mean nova should be shot or it could also mean he’ll need a shot of his favorite liquor if nova starts.

    as long as he keeps his gun cabinet far away from his liquor cabinet it should be ok though.

  140. blake December 27th, 2010 at 3:20 pm

    Zambrano’s option only vests if he’s in the top 2 in the 2011 Cy young voting or if he’s in the top 4 in 2012…..unlikely and if he were to be pitching well enough to do those things then it wouldn’t be the worst thing if it did vest.

  141. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 3:24 pm

    blake-

    i can see zambrano being a possibility.

    one thing i absolutely know is that cashman is going to bring his A game from now through the trading deadline as far as starting pitching goes.

  142. blake December 27th, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    Randy,

    I think you just have to look at what the needs are and the cost of each guy to aquire. If Pettite comes back then I don’t think they neccessarily have to make a move for a starter. If he doesn’t though then they could consider Zambrano along with whoever else might be available and then weigh cost vs how good the pitcher is. Zambrano is a bit more risk but may cost less in players to acquire.

  143. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 3:32 pm

    Ah yes, the immortal Tim Brown, who also ranks the Yankees as the 2nd best AL team in the league. And the yankees are supposed to be scared of teams that can’t even rank ahead of them on the power rankings of some writer? lmao

  144. Dee December 27th, 2010 at 3:33 pm

    I am perfectly fine with Nova in the 5 spot as long as the Yankees are able to acquire/sign a reliable 3/4 starter like Wandy/Carmona. Honestly, I would trade Gardner for a top flight pitcher (Carpenter for instance), but the problem is, the Yankees would have to have a plan to acquire another OF’er…which would require giving even more up. The whole situation is just a mess if you ask me.

    Also, what about Justin Duchsherer? Here’s a guy with loads of potential despite his extensive injury history. Think he might be worth it though?

  145. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 3:37 pm

    yankee21 December 27th, 2010 at 3:04 pm

    As good as Keppinger is, Keppinger did not play any 3B in 2010, and has played 23 games at SS the last two years. NYY primarily needs a guy who can spell Arod and Jeter. Why can’t Laird and Nunez do this?

    ******************

    He played 67 games at 3rd in 2009. Did you see his peripherals? That kind of RISP and bases loaded performance is what you want in New York.

    And Laird has done nothing in the major leagues.

  146. MaineYankee December 27th, 2010 at 3:38 pm

    randy

    one thing i absolutely know is that cashman is going to bring his A game from now through the trading deadline as far as starting pitching goes.

    ———————————————————————————————————–

    I think you must have hit the liquor cabinet. That doesn’t sound like you, giving Cashman some praise.

    Or as I have suspected that you have been taken over by a RS fan. :lol:

  147. Bronx Jeers December 27th, 2010 at 3:43 pm

    Zambrano has a full no-trade clause.

    Would he waive it? Probably not without compensation.

  148. mick December 27th, 2010 at 3:48 pm

    Can we put this Pettitte thing to rest?
    How many think he is gone?
    A simple yes or no will suffice.

    NO.

  149. 108 stitches December 27th, 2010 at 3:55 pm

    Two things hanging in the balance :

    - The decision of Pettitte’s return / or not.

    - The outcomes of arbitration.

    If Andy retires, there’s a minimum of $12M plus the Lee money. The 3-4-5 spots are all questionable unless Rothschild fixes Burnett and Nova can get past the 5th inning of games. Mitre ? Didn’t pitch enough innings to have arm strength as a starter.
    Will need Phelps, Noesi, and Mitchell in the event of injury during the season.

  150. RhapsodyInBlue December 27th, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    The immortal Tim Brown.

    Beckett, Dice-K and Wakefield all with bad backs.

    Bad backs are unlike a fine wine.

    But with Doubrant and Bowden in reserve there should be no problem?

    Wheeler Wheeler home run dealer will help solidify the Sox pen.

  151. Vineyard Yankee December 27th, 2010 at 4:03 pm

    GONE……Yes. I am sick of talking about him and his decision / no decision. Good riddance, see you at OTD.

  152. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 4:07 pm

    “That doesn’t sound like you, giving Cashman some praise.”

    maine yankee-

    the praise will come if he pulls a rabbit out of his hat.

    he’s got a way to go before that happens.

  153. Your Worst Nightmare December 27th, 2010 at 4:13 pm

    What is the point of worrying about Pettitte. He is not on the team and probably won’t be. Maybe Prior will be a pleasant surprise in ST.

  154. disco stu December 27th, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    If Pettitte retires, the Yankees will have to bring in a pitcher before ST … unless Cashman believes that some sort of trade could be worked out during ST (and how often does that happen?)

    Forget about the obvious reason of having at least one more veteran pitcher to help round out the staff at the start of the season. You need to have depth in the rotation. I’m sorry, Nova may be talented (and could very well turn into a dependable major league starter) and Mitre is a “warm body” who is capable of giving you innings, but in a perfect world these two should be fall back options in case of an injury – not your 4th and 5th starters to start a season for a team that is supposedly going to make another run at #28.

    What if CC needs to be out 2-3 weeks in May because of an abnonimal strain, or Hughes misses a month because of a hamstring injury … then what?

    Unless the Yankees are going to come out and tell their fans that 2011 is a rebuilding year and expectations need to be lowered as the farm system talent makes it way to the majors for 2012 and 2013, then they will need to add another capable arm.

  155. CCBiggs December 27th, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    Why are the Yanks so uninterested in Damon? Just last year they offered him a two-year deal for around $14M. They need someone who can be a fourth outfielder and can get some DH at bats. (Posada isn’t good enough anymore to deserve 500+ at bats.) Damon has value. Yanks should sign him.

  156. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 4:26 pm

    Why are the Yanks so uninterested in Damon?

    Damon isn’t interested in being a 4th OFer and 2nd DH option.

  157. RabidYankee December 27th, 2010 at 4:41 pm

    Normally I don’t agree with Joel Sherman of the NY Post, but he nailed it on this one.

    Sadly, though this part is pretty disappointing:

    But it is not just Mariners officials who feel they can’t trade Hernandez and break further faith with their fans. When I have run concepts like this by Yankees officials, they have thought it is too much to give up. And I think this is a sign the Yankees have gone too far in overvaluing prospects. Hernandez is the best pitcher in the world — and he still is just nine months older than Nova. I would open up the minor league system essentially and tell the Mariners to take what they want.

    http://www.nypost.com/p/sports.....R2NSliRO/2

    I’m getting sick of Cashman and his prospect hugging. Two years ago we could’ve had Halladay but Cashman would not give up Jesus Montero. Last year, I thought he could’ve increased the offer from AA second baseman David Adams to Eduardo Nunez to get Lee from Seattle.

    Now the Yankees are afraid of giving up too much for King Felix?? WTF??

    I just don’t get it. The kid is only 24, yet the Yankees want to hope that someday that Montero and Betances will maybe turn into the star that King Felix is now! Even if that does happen, what’s to say the Yankees have the core of the team in place to be a serious contender?

    In an offseason where Boston is definitely improved, we got shunned by Lee and stand pat doing nothing? We haven’t even helped the bullpen. Why not try to push for Soriano to be the setup guy, I don’t know why they let Wood go!

    They really should go for King Felix though. The current Cy Young winner would be a better pickup than Lee.

    Time for Cashman and the Steinbrenner brothers to wake up and offer the farm for King Felix. Enough prospect hugging!!

  158. Mike Ri December 27th, 2010 at 4:47 pm

    Rabid Yankeefan ..

    === your going to get lit up for attacking the prospect huggers.. Just a warning

  159. brianlopez22 December 27th, 2010 at 4:48 pm

    Why is everyone obsessed with acquiring Zambrano? When he tanks, we will all be killing Cashman for acquiring another questionable player.

    People are such hypocrites. You desperately want Cashman to get a below average pitcher with a big name for a big price, and when they self-destruct…

    Everyone will be, again, calling for Cashman’s head.

    Go HARD after Pettitte. Pay him what he asks and give the #5 to Nova. He has shown quality major league talent.

  160. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 4:52 pm

    Rabidwhomever missed the first sentence, where it is stated Mariners officials won’t trade him.

  161. blake December 27th, 2010 at 4:53 pm

    There is no “going hard after Pettite” either he’ll pitch or he wont and if he decides to then the Yankees will pay him fairly. He’s not debating which team to play for….he’s debating whether to play at all.

  162. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 4:53 pm

    What I’ve been told by a few guys in the business is that Pettite has told Cashman that he doesn’t want to return but they don’t want to announce this as it’ll hang the club up in trying to make a trade…….Then again it’s believed that he would if the club has no other options and really need him…..The Clemens trial weights heavy in all of this…….

  163. upstate kate December 27th, 2010 at 4:55 pm

    the M’s have flat out said, even in the article posted, that they will NOT trade Felix…you can’t make a trade happen just b/c you want it.
    Lee wanted to go back to the Phillies, Wood wanted to go back to the Cubs.

  164. Mike Ri December 27th, 2010 at 4:57 pm

    Pat what about the dodger talk ???

  165. blake December 27th, 2010 at 4:58 pm

    Pat M,

    Say it ain’t so…..

  166. brianlopez22 December 27th, 2010 at 5:02 pm

    blake –

    The Yankees are still low-balling Pettitte, trying to tell him he’s not NEEDED, just WANTED.
    So, stop the games. give him 13 mm guaranteed and lets get playing.

    Rabid YankeeFan –

    I agree that hugging every prospect for the idea of Felix is foolish, but you can’t FORCE Seattle to trade him. He is their star and their core. Tey would be stupid to trade him and tell their fans ..

    “Hey, we traded our stud for a bunch of minor leaguers!!!! Come, buy season tickets”

    If I were Seattle’s GM, I would only consider it for 2 major leaguers (1 pitcher and 1 position player) and a boatload of minor leaguers. That’s how valuable he is.

  167. blake December 27th, 2010 at 5:04 pm

    And you know they are lowballing him how?

  168. brianlopez22 December 27th, 2010 at 5:05 pm

    it has been reported on ESPN, mlb trade rumors, etc. for months now.
    Those reports said that Pettitte wants to come back, but will not be disgraced with the same offer as two years ago.

  169. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 5:06 pm

    Mike Ri…..No names were mentioned to me at all, but the clubs are apparently continuing talks that started back when Russel Martin was a topic…..Billingsley can be had, Kershaw is not an option from what I was told…….

  170. blake December 27th, 2010 at 5:07 pm

    They haven’t reported any offers at all.

  171. blake December 27th, 2010 at 5:08 pm

    If Billingsley can be had then they should look into that.

  172. Mike Ri December 27th, 2010 at 5:13 pm

    cool thanks Pat M.

  173. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 5:14 pm

    blake, I agree on Billingsley, however in a perfect world Cashman would like to obtain another lefty for the rotation…..Are there any lefty’s in the system not named Manny ????

  174. brianlopez22 December 27th, 2010 at 5:17 pm

    blake –

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....felix.html

  175. blake December 27th, 2010 at 5:18 pm

    Pat m,

    If they traded for Billingsly then Andy might change his mind ;)

  176. brianlopez22 December 27th, 2010 at 5:19 pm

    blanke & Mike Ri –

    Since you’re both on the Billingsley bandwagon –
    What’s the price of acquiring him?

    Again, these guys are not cheap.

  177. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 5:22 pm

    Questions, questions and more questions.

    Here’s some facts:
    1) The Yankees played .500 baseball from the end of July on last season.

    2) The Yankees currently have ONE starting pitcher they know they can count on. Everybody else is a question mark.

    3) Brian Cashman has a significantly larger wallet than any other MLB team and is accountable for all of these problems.

    Time for a change.

  178. Gary December 27th, 2010 at 5:22 pm

    Well 24 hours after the drubing which I have dubed, “The hangover in GB after the Miracle of the Meadowlands Two” I’m still wondering why people who get payed so much don’t come out and play the game they get payed to play”

    Well at least after the Giants fold the tents next week there will be weeks on end of fancinating and entertaining conversation about Yankee prospects, trade talk and stratgtey here at Lo Hud. :-)

  179. mick December 27th, 2010 at 5:23 pm

    Those reports said that Pettitte wants to come back, but will not be disgraced with the same offer as two years ago.
    =====================
    This is prob. closer to the truth….Why can’t the vaunted Andy be negotiations?….Does it really matter what he “says”?….He has said he’d retire before…..I’m still of the belief that if the NYY play hardball with him, he will not only not come back but could go to Texas. Not like he hasn’t done that before.

  180. blake December 27th, 2010 at 5:24 pm

    That Heyman tweet says nothing about any offer. All that says that if he does come.back then it wont be for.some.incentive deal.like they offered 2 years ago…..they didn’t do that last year so why would they this year when they clearly need him. There is no indication that Pettite has told the Yankees he’s coming back let alone talked money with them.

  181. mick December 27th, 2010 at 5:25 pm

    Cashman, for all his “autonomy”, can’t spend Hal’s money without his consent. Why can’t people get that?
    “Forcing” deals does not work either so forget that.

  182. mick December 27th, 2010 at 5:26 pm

    -be in negotiations-

  183. blake December 27th, 2010 at 5:27 pm

    No idea what the cost on Billingsley would be…..that’s the question and deciding factor on whether to do it.

  184. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 5:27 pm

    1) The Yankees played .500 baseball from the end of July on last season.

    2) The Yankees currently have ONE starting pitcher they know they can count on. Everybody else is a question mark.

    3) Brian Cashman has a significantly larger wallet than any other MLB team and is accountable for all of these problems.

    This is humorous. They played amazing ball before Aug 1, but we’re just going to discount that. Suddenly we can’t count on Hughes? AJ burnett doesn’t have past years track records to count on? So I suppose the Red Sox have 1 pitcher they can count on? And finally, Cashman has to be accountable for all of these problems! Which is more like problem, because playing .500 ball as an injury weary team in the 2nd half is not a problem.

  185. Gary December 27th, 2010 at 5:27 pm

    brianlopez22 December 27th, 2010 at 5:02 pm
    blake –

    The Yankees are still low-balling Pettitte, trying to tell him he’s not NEEDED

    ______________________________________________________________________

    Brian, haven’t you figured it out yet, that is the new negotiation style. Playing hardball with potential prospects and existing players that we don’t need you.

    Beyond the joke I’m not sure what they are doing with Andy. Hopefully the Yanks are being a bit more positive with Andy about his role in 2011 with the team.

  186. Gary December 27th, 2010 at 5:30 pm

    This is humorous. They played amazing ball before Aug 1, but we’re just going to discount that. Suddenly we can’t count on Hughes? AJ burnett doesn’t have past years track records to count on? So I suppose the Red Sox have 1 pitcher they can count on? And finally, Cashman has to be accountable for all of these problems! Which is more like problem, because playing .500 ball as an injury weary team in the 2nd half is not a problem.

    ________________________________________________________________________

    Jerkface I think he made some good points, I think we all wished the season ended on August 1st vrs the October 1st. I do believe the age factor was a significant issue with several of the injuries. You’d expect them to develop the issues later in the year.

  187. Gary December 27th, 2010 at 5:30 pm

    This is humorous. They played amazing ball before Aug 1, but we’re just going to discount that. Suddenly we can’t count on Hughes? AJ burnett doesn’t have past years track records to count on? So I suppose the Red Sox have 1 pitcher they can count on? And finally, Cashman has to be accountable for all of these problems! Which is more like problem, because playing .500 ball as an injury weary team in the 2nd half is not a problem.

    ________________________________________________________________________

    Jerkface I think he made some good points, I think we all wished the season ended on August 1st vrs the October 1st. I do believe the age factor was a significant issue with several of the injuries. You’d expect them to develop the issues later in the year.

  188. mick December 27th, 2010 at 5:31 pm

    Andy has played the retirement card before. Why would he retire when he has leverage for his last contract esp the way he pitched last year? The Yanks need him more than ever and he knows it.

  189. Yank 97 December 27th, 2010 at 5:32 pm

    # Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 4:53 pm

    What I’ve been told by a few guys in the business is that Pettite has told Cashman that he doesn’t want to return but they don’t want to announce this as it’ll hang the club up in trying to make a trade…….Then again it’s believed that he would if the club has no other options and really need him…..The Clemens trial weights heavy in all of this…….

    —————–

    Makes sense. Thanks for the insight.

  190. mick December 27th, 2010 at 5:32 pm

    To insult him like they did Jeter, even though it was a fair contract, is what caused Andy to bolt the 1st time. How could they make the same mistake twice?

  191. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 5:33 pm

    Good points? If anyones argument is that: “Cashman has the most money so there” then they better have a list of things they’d do in his place. This entire free agency was Cliff lee or nothing. There was never going to be crawford or werth and after those 3 the market was garbage.

    Whats the other good point? We played .500 ball? Yankee teams have played .500 ball to begin seasons or worse, it doesn’t matter how you play a season it only matters how you finish the playoffs.

    Its a stupid point.

  192. mick December 27th, 2010 at 5:34 pm

    Then again it’s believed that he would if the club has no other options and really need him…..
    =======================================================
    This sounds so naive. Of course they need him. Stop playing games and sign him Cash, or yes, your head is on the block.

  193. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 5:37 pm

    Brian Cashman gets to spend significantly more than any other GM in the baseball.

    At the end of the day, whether you like it or not, he WILL be held accountable for this team’s failings, and there are plenty.

  194. Mike Ri December 27th, 2010 at 5:39 pm

    brianlopez22

    Brian i’m not on the Billingsley bandwagon , I was just wondering if the Yanks were still talking to the Dodgers , thats all

  195. Doreen December 27th, 2010 at 5:40 pm

    Tex and Gardner were two of the players with the most nagging, bothersome and intrusive injuries. They’re not old. The injuries were not age-related.

    Add Swisher to that twosome. That’s three key players, all young, who were injured to the point where their contributions were compromised.

    Pettitte’s injury was not age-related, though the slower than expected come back could be attributed to age.

  196. mick December 27th, 2010 at 5:41 pm

    If they don’t sign Andy, the cost rises on ANY other move they make.
    Wrap the deal up and go about business as usual.

  197. Doreen December 27th, 2010 at 5:41 pm

    this team hasn’t failed – they haven’t even played a game – they don’t even have their opening day roster finalized yet. How can they have failed?

  198. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 5:41 pm

    At the end of the day, whether you like it or not, he WILL be held accountable for this team’s failings, and there are plenty.

    Name them and lets discuss it. Most of his ‘failings’ are the incredibly unrealistic standards to which he is held by some of the less sane fans.

  199. austinmac December 27th, 2010 at 5:42 pm

    Pat M.,

    No, but you made me think you could probably field a pretty good team named Manny.

    Ramirez, Trillo, Mota, Sanguillen hmmm.

  200. mick December 27th, 2010 at 5:44 pm

    Andy might be looking for 2 years, the 2nd a buyout at 3m and 12-13 for the 1st.
    They just won’t give him what he wants, they did the same thing to Jeter, got to lead to harsh feelings.

  201. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 5:47 pm

    As far as the “what would you do?” argument goes…

    Let’s start with this. I would NOT have wasted $56 million worth of charity on a washed-up Derek Jeter.

    He has NO range, NO power and a mediocre arm, at best. He should not be playing SS and he should not be batting at the top of the order, and he CERTAINLY should not be making $17 million a year.

    “If I were Cashman,” I would have told Hal Steinbrenner I didn’t want Jeter back, certainly not at those $$$. He hurts this team more than he helps it, and the Yankees should have been doing BACKFLIPS when that his previous deal expired when it did.

    I would have told Hal he could sign Jeter for whatever chooses to, but don’t count it against my “budget.” If I’m gonna spend game-changer dollars, I want another game-changer in pinstripes.

    I also would have given Lee whatever it took, just as Cashman did two years ago with Sabathia. Of course, two years ago Cashman was coming off a non-playoff season and was desperate. Now he’s comfortable (not to mention lazy) again.

  202. ZMAN December 27th, 2010 at 5:48 pm

    They played so well in the first half of 2010 because, for most of that time, they had 4 pitchers pitching very well.

    In April, CC/Hughes/Andy/Burnett all had exceptional numbers. In May, Vazquez joined the party. Early on, all of them were pitching deep into games and that continued with the exception of Hughes who wasn’t as economical later on. Vazquez was pitching so well in the summer, people were talking about him netting us Jason Werth (if we got Cliff Lee).

    We had 3 starters who went to the ASG because of their great first half. Vazquez was one of the best starters in the AL from Mid-May through late July. Not only were they good, but they were eating innings, which limited exposure of the pen (which sucked in the first half, BTW, but we could hide it because we got innings for the most part from the starters).

    No coincidence once Andy went down, the rotation collapsed. We survived fine in the short term, but once August hit, and AJ/Vazquez sucked everytime out and CC was starting to show signs of fatigue, the rotation collapsed. Nova/Mosely were going 5 innings combined with Burnett/Vazquez short outings killed the pen. We had no margin of error once Andy went down.

    If we go into the rotation with CC, Hughes, Burnett and some kids/washed up veterans/Mitre-types in the 4-5 spot, we run the risk of having the very same thing happen to us that happened in the later half of 2010. We would have no margin for error. We would NEED Burnett to become a frontline guy (and Cashman said as much). We would NEED Hughes to take a step forward. We would need the kids to avoid growing pains and pitch well. Not to mention, the bullpen hardly inspires confidence anyway minus Wood.

  203. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 5:48 pm

    This winter is about Cashman and the front office practicing the ” Art of negotiating 101 ” by Randy Levine…….After All they’re just ballplayers , yeah Randy they’re just ballplayers that have transformed the NY Yankees into a conglomerate and that’s why you have a job you hump….

  204. mick December 27th, 2010 at 5:48 pm

    Brian Cashman gets to spend significantly more than any other GM in the baseball.
    =================
    And FA’s know this, asking for the moon.Doesn’t mean because Cash shows an interest that the player dictates his worth. It’s a business decision.

  205. Mike Ri December 27th, 2010 at 5:49 pm

    ZMAN

    Great post,

    If we go into the rotation with CC, Hughes, Burnett and some kids/washed up veterans/Mitre-types in the 4-5 spot, we run the risk of having the very same thing happen to us that happened in the later half of 2010. We would have no margin for error. We would NEED Burnett to become a frontline guy (and Cashman said as much). We would NEED Hughes to take a step forward. We would need the kids to avoid growing pains and pitch well. Not to mention, the bullpen hardly inspires confidence anyway minus Wood.

    100 percent correct

  206. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 5:49 pm

    QUOTE: “Name them and lets discuss it. Most of his ‘failings’ are the incredibly unrealistic standards to which he is held by some of the less sane fans.”

    This team has the highest payroll in baseball and only one reliable starting pitcher. This was a .500 team the last two and a half months of last year.

  207. austinmac December 27th, 2010 at 5:50 pm

    Mick,

    I don’t think 2 years is Pettitte’s goal, but if I am wrong, would you do it?

    I say yes.

  208. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 5:51 pm

    The Yankees have an incredibly balanced offense in terms of age and production.

    The entire outfield is age 30 or under. Our best hitter is 28. We have a 27 year old leadoff who plays the best defense in the league in left and center and can steal 50 bases.

    We have the best hitting prospect in the majors ready to break in at Catcher. We just signed a 27 year old catcher who posts .350 on bases even in down years. The oldest players on the offense are certifiable hall of famers. One of which posts 30/120 even with a bad hip and who is fully recovered says the doctors.

    The bullpen is full of versatile, home grown or traded for pitchers, with the best closer of all time. There is plenty of room for new blood to enter from the system or through savvy trades.

    The rotation has a 220 inning ace, an under 25 righty with great command who was league average in his first full season but has shown flashes of dominace. AJ Burnett has vast prior experience to fall back on. We have Nova, a guy who pitched to a 2 ERA in AAA and got his feet wet in the majors last year. The farm system has pitchers 10 deep who can come up and make an impact at the major league level in the next 3 years.

  209. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    QUOTE: “And FA’s know this, asking for the moon.Doesn’t mean because Cash shows an interest that the player dictates his worth. It’s a business decision.”
    ———————————————————————————–
    I know… I said it was a decision. Cashman’s decision, to be specific… And he will and should be held accountable.

  210. EA December 27th, 2010 at 5:53 pm

    “Then again it’s believed that he would if the club has no other options and really need him…..”

    Pat,

    Haven’t the Yankees made that abundently clear already though? Even Randy Levine, the “tough guy”, said that he goes to sleep every night “wishing” and “dreaming” of Andy Pettitte returning. Cashman seems to mention Andy every time he makes a public quote.

    Cash also isin’t doing himself any favors by continuing to say publicly that he believes Andy is leaning towards retirement and Andy told him “not to wait” so they have to operate as if he isin’t coming back.

  211. mick December 27th, 2010 at 5:54 pm

    Really do think the Yanks are going hard after Andy, just not making the mistake of going public. Perhaps this accounts for the time lag as Andy has his own ideas of what he’s worth. It is a must sign as without him, any replacement will cost more, as they will be in a desperate state. Seems like they are playing with fire with him, if anything he buys them more time to find a top flight starter. Again, maybe they are ironing out the final details.

  212. mick December 27th, 2010 at 5:54 pm

    Cashman doesn’t have the final say on money, the guys with the money do.

  213. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 5:55 pm

    This team has the highest payroll in baseball and only one reliable starting pitcher. This was a .500 team the last two and a half months of last year.

    That isn’t a failing. Being a .500 ball club through an arbitrary point of the season is not a failing. It doesn’t make any sense. As I said, prior yankee teams have been .500 for the same length of time and been just fine. Beginning or end of the season it doesn’t matter as long as the team has 3 starters going into the playoffs.

  214. mick December 27th, 2010 at 5:57 pm

    Austin

    Sure would. Andy prob wants 16m. If it comes as 14 now and 2 next year as a buyout, he can retire in peace.

  215. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 5:58 pm

    If we go into the rotation with CC, Hughes, Burnett and some kids/washed up veterans/Mitre-types in the 4-5 spot, we run the risk of having the very same thing happen to us that happened in the later half of 2010. We would have no margin for error. We would NEED Burnett to become a frontline guy (and Cashman said as much). We would NEED Hughes to take a step forward. We would need the kids to avoid growing pains and pitch well. Not to mention, the bullpen hardly inspires confidence anyway minus Wood.

    There is always going to be risk going into a rotation. Burnett in 09 was an injury prone starter who had his up and downs, and we won the world series. You are going to run a risk even if you bring back Pettitte, due to injury.

    There is no risk free rotation. If you go CC-Hughes-AJ-Kids/whomever, you run the risk of it failing but you also run the reward of it succeeding and having great flexibility. Additionally, if any plan undertaken to stave the risk of the kids fails, the kids still end up in the rotation.

    At some point you have to let them pitch. The Yankees need at most 1 starter. Nova had a 2 ERA in AAA. And a 4.5 in the majors. Gotta let him see if that is legit.

  216. EA December 27th, 2010 at 5:58 pm

    ZMAN,

    Agree 100%.

    People can’t just paint 2010 in a broad stroke. It was literally a tale of two halves. The rotation in the first half was far far superior to what was being trotted out there from August on. And the rotation we have now resembles the August one more than the first half one in which we had 4 above average starters. If Andy comes back, things will look a lot better. Without him? Yikes.

  217. Mike Ri December 27th, 2010 at 5:59 pm

    Jerkface –

    Is the glass half full or half empty

    The rotation has a 220 inning ace, an under 25 righty with great command who was league average in his first full season but has shown flashes of dominace. AJ Burnett has vast prior experience to fall back on. We have Nova, a guy who pitched to a 2 ERA in AAA and got his feet wet in the majors last year. The farm system has pitchers 10 deep who can come up and make an impact at the major league level in the next 3 years.

    ————————————————————
    We do have one Ace – Granted
    I’ll also give you Hughes –
    Aj– he is what he is .. and what he’s been his whole life . An inconsistent pitcher with great stuff.
    Nova- Yes he got his feet wet. but he also couldn’t get past the fifth inning . He looked scared when a runner reached first base. But hes young and has decent stuff… He has nice number 4 or 5 stuff.
    The Farm System — We’ll see. but the best two we have don’t have enough innings under there belt . .and the rest are pretty much equivilant to each other in terms of stuff.

    To me personally .. Its not enough to win a Championship .. i’m not even sure its enough to win a wild card

  218. Ruby Tuesday December 27th, 2010 at 5:59 pm

    ” Teixeira appearance ppd. to Tuesday/pitching woes ”

    I don’t see any *dr**n G*nz*l*z appearances getting postponed .

    Why is the weather so unkind only to us Yankees ?

    And also the R*d S*x have no pitching woes .

    Why is life so unkind only to us Yankees ?

  219. Ruby Tuesday December 27th, 2010 at 6:00 pm

    :(

  220. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 6:00 pm

    Burnett’s decline started May 5. Vazquez was not useful until June 1.

  221. mick December 27th, 2010 at 6:01 pm

    Contrary to popular opinion, I think the Andy deal is wrapped up, maybe waiting for the New Year to announce. After all what’s the hurry. If he wanted to retire then why not announce it ASAP?

  222. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 6:02 pm

    To me personally .. Its not enough to win a Championship .. i’m not even sure its enough to win a wild card

    The yankees won the wild card with 2 pitchers throwing up 5.5+ combined ERA. I don’t see how anyone who pitches in their stead could be worse.

  223. clownthrowindown December 27th, 2010 at 6:03 pm

    Jerkface,

    ” The farm system has pitchers 10 deep who can come up and make an impact at the major league level in the next 3 years”

    Be serious. And as for Montero, he apparently hasn’t even beaten Cervelli out for a spot.

  224. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 6:06 pm

    QUOTE: “Cashman doesn’t have the final say on money, the guys with the money do.”
    —————————————————————————————————
    And those “guys with the money” all Cashman to spend significantly more than any other GM, and here we sit with one reliable starting pitcher.

    Cashman’s fault. No excuses. He will be held accountable.

  225. jackamir December 27th, 2010 at 6:07 pm

    There has to be more to the Petitte situation than the Yankees are letting out. Maybe there is a trade in the making and they don’t want to be held up looking desperate. Wandy looks like the ticket. Cashman is in an uncomfortable position and I think he is playing his usual “close to the vest”. He has his best poker face happening.

  226. Mike Ri December 27th, 2010 at 6:07 pm

    Jerkface –

    The yankees won the wild card with 2 pitchers throwing up 5.5+ combined ERA. I don’t see how anyone who pitches in their stead could be worse.
    ——-

    Thats assuming CC or Hughes doesn’t go down for a long extended period of time .. We are one injury away from this being a long long season Your counting too heavily on the farm system

  227. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 6:08 pm

    Cashman’s fault. No excuses. He will be held accountable.

    How would you have not ended up here? Even if they signed Lee they only have 2 reliable starters, and how can anyone win with only 2 starters?!?!

    They went into 2010 with 4 reliable starters+1 rookie with great MLB experience. Nothing is guaranteed.

  228. mick December 27th, 2010 at 6:09 pm

    While AJ is being paid #2 starter money, he is really our #4.
    Without selling the farm we are not getting a #2 to replace Andy and keep AJ at #4.
    Going into the season with AJ at #2 will not work.
    Therefore, fill in the blanks, _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ .

  229. mick December 27th, 2010 at 6:10 pm

    _ _ / _ _ _ _ / _ _ _ _ / _ _ _ _ .

  230. clownthrowindown December 27th, 2010 at 6:11 pm

    Jerkface,

    How can you possibly spew the nonsense about how strong NY is when you have been reduced to looking at Wandy Rodriguez as a saviour?
    You are the frog in boiling water…its so bad that you have gotten used to it and altered all judgement.

    If anyone else’s rotation and bullpen looked like NY’s, you would be the first person mocking and dumping on them.

  231. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 6:11 pm

    Thats assuming CC or Hughes doesn’t go down for a long extended period of time .. We are one injury away from this being a long long season Your counting too heavily on the farm system

    This is always the risk. That is the risk of pitching in the majors. What if Jon Lester goes down? What are the Sox going to do? They have 100% less minor league depth behind their rotation which features 3 incredibly injury prone suck bags in Beckett, Matsuzaka, and Lackey. Wakefield is equally injury prone and suck.

    Pitching always carries the risk of injury, and the only way to combat that is to fill your rotation with 5 league average type guys and hope they have outlier years. The Yankees don’t roll like that. They aren’t going to dole out 3 year contracts to back end guys.
    The rotation would look like 2005-2008 where we had guys like Pavano and Wright sitting around either sucking or injured.

  232. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 6:11 pm

    QUOTE: “We are one injury away from this being a long long season.”
    ————————————————————————————————-

    That’s optimistic… I don’t think we’re “one injury away” at all… I think we’re Brian Cashman sitting on his lazy @$$ for two more months away from a very mediocre 2011.

  233. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 6:14 pm

    Jerkface…..I share your rationale and optimism to an extent….I do have reservations when it comes to the bullpen though……..Besides the 8th inning being iffy, what happens when Mariano has to miss a few weeks or so….Now keep in mind that Giradi paced Mo in 2010 and you can expect more of that and maybe even more skipped outings……..Wood is gone and that is a concern…….

  234. Mike Ri December 27th, 2010 at 6:16 pm

    Jerkface -

    I wish i shared your optimism !

    -
    3 incredibly injury prone suck bags in Beckett, Matsuzaka, an Lackey

    —-
    \Boy if you think they suck.. You can possibly think our 3 4 5 are much better.

  235. mick December 27th, 2010 at 6:16 pm

    pat m

    don’t you think they are going after Rauch, Fuentes or Gregg?

  236. mick December 27th, 2010 at 6:18 pm

    It will be easier to replace Wood than Andy.

  237. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 6:19 pm

    Besides the 8th inning being iffy, what happens when Mariano has to miss a few weeks or so….Now keep in mind that Giradi paced Mo in 2010 and you can expect more of that and maybe even more skipped outings……..Wood is gone and that is a concern…….

    How do any of these 8th inning guys ever appear in the majors? Out of thin air on other teams? David Robertson was busy going houdini in the playoffs in 09 while Wood was watching on his couch. He pitched 24 innings for the yankees. I think they will survive finding those 24 innings from someone else.

    Logan had a 2 ERA down the stretch. Feliciano will be tough on lefties all year. Joba is what he is. Robertson is only 26 and still has his dynamite stuff and is tough as nails. Relief is so volatile. Kerry Wood was very lucky his 6 BB/9 didn’t bite him on the yankees.

  238. ZMAN December 27th, 2010 at 6:19 pm

    “There is always going to be risk going into a rotation. Burnett in 09 was an injury prone starter who had his up and downs, and we won the world series. You are going to run a risk even if you bring back Pettitte, due to injury.”

    That’s true. Good point about Andy too, which is why it is dangerous for fans/management to consider him some kind of savior. At his age, you have to take injuries into account. Not to mention, expecting him to be an All-Star type pitcher again is asking a lot. He would be great to have, but hardly a lock for anything.

    In 09, the risks were all injury-related, not performance. We knew CC was a stud. Wang was a 19-game winner and none of us knew how his rehab was botched at the time we expected him to be healthy considering it was a foot injury, not pitching one. Burnett was, at worst, a 4 ERA guy with potential to be more (and most thought he would be Schilling 2.0, but that’s for another conversation). Chamberlain was beastly in 2008 and we expected him to do that for us over a full season. Andy was hurt/ineffective in the 2nd half, but great as a #5. We also had our top prospects Hughes and Kennedy just sitting in the minors as depth. Most people didn’t even want Andy back and wanted Hughes in the 5th spot.

    Yes, the 09 rotation had risk, but the expectations for those guys was to pitch the way they always have. We could also absorb an injury because we had Hughes waiting there.

    The 2011 (projected) rotation will require 2 starters to improve from last year (and in the case of Burnett, improve significantly) and two mid-level prospects like Nova/Phelps/Warren to outperform their projections and limit their growing pains, or asking some scrub/rehab guy (Francis, Garcia, Mitre, etc.) to become a league-average pitcher in the AL East. Now, as you say, the questions could certainly be answered positively, but it is carrying an enormous risk. The good news is that we should still be in playoff contention through the deadline.

  239. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 6:20 pm

    \Boy if you think they suck.. You can possibly think our 3 4 5 are much better.

    Either everyone sucks and we’re on the same footing or you have to take into account a return to normalcy or growth in skills on both back ends. At the very least, the Yankee backend has future upside. Theres little upside in Beckett/Lackey/Matsuzaka.

  240. Mike Ri December 27th, 2010 at 6:23 pm

    Jerkface

    I guess we can agree to disagree!! . . In any-case . .I do enjoy reading your posts !

  241. 108 stitches December 27th, 2010 at 6:23 pm

    mick December 27th, 2010 at 6:16 pm
    pat m

    don’t you think they are going after Rauch, Fuentes or Gregg
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Fuentes is a LH. Logan and Feliciano got it covered. Rauch or Gregg would be OK.

  242. mick December 27th, 2010 at 6:26 pm

    Fuentes is a LH. Logan and Feliciano got it covered. Rauch or Gregg would be OK.
    ===========================
    Were talking about an EIG/closer. Wouldn’t mind another lefty.

  243. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 6:26 pm

    The 2011 (projected) rotation will require 2 starters to improve from last year

    Which is certainly not hard to do , because Hughes is entering his prime. Unless we’d like to regress Buchholz back to his 6.75 ERA he had.

    I am more than fine penciling Hughes in for 200 innings of league average or better pitching. They just need 1 more pitcher to put all this starter worry to rest.

  244. 4time December 27th, 2010 at 6:27 pm

    Besides the 8th inning being iffy, what happens when Mariano has to miss a few weeks or so….Now keep in mind that Giradi paced Mo in 2010 and you can expect more of that and maybe even more skipped outings……..Wood is gone and that is a concern…….

    ————–

    Agree. The bullpen before Wood arrived was scary. Remember Joba blowing those 3-4 run leads to Boston and Cleveland, the Minnesota game, etc. I like Robertson, but he is up-and-down. Wood was rock solid for those 2 months…

  245. mick December 27th, 2010 at 6:28 pm

    They just need 1 more pitcher to put all this starter worry to rest.
    ===============If not Pettitte, it will cost more than just money.

  246. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 6:32 pm

    “The yankees won the wild card with 2 pitchers throwing up 5.5+ combined ERA. I don’t see how anyone who pitches in their stead could be worse.”

    how about hughes and kennedy back in 2008?

    a similar situation with two young guys is what the yankees need to avoid this next april and may . i think the mlb newbies should be limited to one in the rotation.

    i also still think joba should be given chance to compete for a spot if pettitte shuts it down.. i don’t count him as a young guy anymore.

  247. BoJo December 27th, 2010 at 6:34 pm

    I totally understand the suggestion we get serious with Pettitte and get him to come back…also the idea of getting serious with Mariners and getting Felix for some prospects.

    Cashman should start with Andy, and have his kids kidnapped and held until he signs up for 2011.

    Then, he should find out of the Ms owners own any racing horses, or have kids. I’m sure they will deal once they know Cashman is “serious.”

    Heck, if this works, Cashman can get serious with a lot of players and agents and GMs. In fact,GM Cahman could come to be understood to mean “Godfather & Master.”

    Yep, why didn’t anyone suggest this sooner?! “Why did we hesitate?”

  248. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 6:35 pm

    how about hughes and kennedy back in 2008?

    2008 only had 1 pitcher throw anything close to a good season. Mussina. 200 innings exactly with a great ERA. Wang only had 95 innings and a 4 ERA, Pettitte was below league average. The rotation was full of waiver wire slop and non-prospects. Hughes trying to pitch through a rib fracture and Kennedys whatever it was definitely hurt them.

    Can’t do much with that.

  249. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 6:39 pm

    “They just need 1 more pitcher to put all this starter worry to rest.”

    jerkface-

    i don’t think so.

    who are your 8 deep starting pitchers who could start the season for the yankees.

    i think eight is a good number because three can disappear at any given time and often do.
    i’d say the yankees are two short right now if cashman remains in his pout over joba which looks like he’s going to do.

  250. 4time December 27th, 2010 at 6:40 pm

    “The yankees won the wild card with 2 pitchers throwing up 5.5+ combined ERA. I don’t see how anyone who pitches in their stead could be worse.”

    But as others have said. Vazquez/Burnett didn’t both suck at the same time until August.

    Vazquez was one of the best starters in baseball for a 2.5 month stretch from that Tigers game in early May until that Rays start in August. Burnett had a 3.28 ERA through the first 2 months. Also had a good July.

    It’s not like they were 5 ERA pitchers for the whole year. Until August, one of those guys was pitching well at a time. But when they both sucked together, that’s when things fell apart. Also, neither one of Nova/Mitre/Mosely could adequately replace Andy.

  251. 108 stitches December 27th, 2010 at 6:41 pm

    I’d consider Wandy Rodriquez and Jeff Keppinger for players off the AAA roster such as Zack Segovia, Lance Pendleton, and Eric Wordekemper …. all cost controlled.
    Rodriquez and Keppinger would cost about $7-8M for both and salary relief for Houston.

  252. MG December 27th, 2010 at 6:41 pm

    there are about 95 days left until Opening Day, I’m guessing the Over/Under on the number of Cashman complaints until then is at least 15,000.

    Don’t you complainers have anything else to do except repeat the same old junk? You could at least pick on someone else, I hear Gene Monahan needs some a lefty out of the locker room and is too lazy to post an ad on Craigslist.

  253. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 6:42 pm

    who are your 8 deep starting pitchers who could start the season for the yankees.

    CC
    Hughes
    AJ
    The 1 Free Agent Guy
    Nova
    Mitre
    Noesi
    Phelps

    Aceves~ if they retain him and rehab him

    Either you count on guys in AAA or you don’t. Not including Joba because the organization seems like they don’t want to include him.

  254. Yank 97 December 27th, 2010 at 6:43 pm

    “They just need 1 more pitcher to put all this starter worry to rest.”

    Agree, but that starter has to be a good/solid pitcher. Either Andy coming back or acquiring a Galvin Floyd/Billingsly type pitcher.

    Both those things are easier said than done though. It’s not like Kevin Milwood is going to come in and save the day. We need a quality pitcher, and acquiring that guy is not going to be easy at all if Andy calls it quits.

  255. MG December 27th, 2010 at 6:44 pm

    since when is a starting rotation 8 deep? Who are the Sox #6,7, and 8 starters-Jim Lonborg, Bill Monbouquette, and Spaceman Bill Lee?

  256. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 6:45 pm

    But as others have said. Vazquez/Burnett didn’t both suck at the same time until August.

    Vazquez was one of the best starters in baseball for a 2.5 month stretch from that Tigers game in early May until that Rays start in August. Burnett had a 3.28 ERA through the first 2 months. Also had a good July.

    It’s not like they were 5 ERA pitchers for the whole year. Until August, one of those guys was pitching well at a time. But when they both sucked together, that’s when things fell apart. Also, neither one of Nova/Mitre/Mosely could adequately replace Andy.

    SO wait, they didn’t kill us when they sucked at different times? And they pitched well for extended periods of time? So why are we expecting them to suck 24/7 next season? Lets count on AJ burnett to pitch well for 3 months! That certainly takes a load off. And we’ll put Nova in for like 4 good months, since he had a way better ERA than Vazquez.

    You can’t go down to parsing individual starts / months for a starting pitcher in trying to somehow justify the Yankees being in a worse position next season. You have no idea if Burnett will get off to a hot start like he did in 2010, or maybe he sucks but then works on something and figures it out.

    When projecting you go off what you think the final pitching line is going to look like because that will decide the amount of runs given up, which you compare to the average blah blah blah.

  257. Mike Ri December 27th, 2010 at 6:45 pm

    MG –

    We are not complaining ?? we are just concerned thats all

  258. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 6:46 pm

    How can anyone reasonably project that Noesi and Phelps can pitch effectively in the major leagues much less in the AL East?

    Noesi has pitched 3 games on the AAA level and Phelps 12.

  259. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 6:48 pm

    sabathia
    burnett
    hughes
    nova
    mitre

    who am i forgetting?

  260. Mike Ri December 27th, 2010 at 6:49 pm

    West Coast Yankee Fan

    How can anyone reasonably project that Noesi and Phelps can pitch effectively in the major leagues much less in the AL East?

    Noesi has pitched 3 games on the AAA level and Phelps 12.

    ————–

    The Prospect Huggers will be flipping out in 3 2 1 ……..

  261. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 6:50 pm

    Whatever you guys do, don’t look at rotations of the other teams in the AL east. You might die.

    Toronto

    Romero 3.73 ERA
    Cecil 4.22 ERA
    Morrow 4.56 ERA
    Razcjkzklcjkla 5 ERA
    Combined ERAs of emergency starters 6 ERA

    Orioles, only starter under 4.3 = Jeremy Guthrie (who had a 5 ERA in 2009)

  262. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 6:52 pm

    How can anyone reasonably project that Noesi and Phelps can pitch effectively in the major leagues much less in the AL East?

    Noesi has pitched 3 games on the AAA level and Phelps 12.

    AA is often the toughest level. Additionally, since none of those pitchers are starting the year in the rotation (barring an immaculate spring), they will continue to acquire playing time in AAA. Its not like they stay at 3 / 12 games for all of 2011.

  263. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 6:52 pm

    Jerkface…..The bullpen lacks depth and reliability as it sits right now, especially when I consider your 8 deep rotation….Put away the Brandy and eggnog and get real……One Lee split from the Yankee radar Cashman should have or should be signing at least 1 solid guy to go with Joba and Robertson…….And if Tin Cup gets his message across about Joba then the pen gets that more iffy……

  264. MG December 27th, 2010 at 6:52 pm

    Mike Ri December 27th, 2010 at 6:45 pm
    MG –

    We are not complaining ?? we are just concerned thats all
    ——————————————–
    Concerned in December=Panicked in April=Jumping off Bridges in July

    It’s way too early for any concern whatsoever. Go back a year and tell me who the Rangers had projected in the starting rotation, I’ll bet there wasn’t anyone who made a start in the playoffs.

  265. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 6:54 pm

    Shoot we might still have Jason Hirsch.

  266. clownthrowindown December 27th, 2010 at 6:54 pm

    Jerkface,

    AJ, The 1 Free Agent Guy, Nova, Mitre, Noesi, Phelps????

    If that was TB’s or Boston’s 3 through 8, you would be killing them (and rightfully so). How can you seriously think that is a group that even stands a chance in the AL East?

    You just keep lowering the standard. What you need to lower instead are your expectations.

  267. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 6:55 pm

    The bullpen lacks depth and reliability as it sits right now

    It always does, and by playoff time it will be set. Like in 08, 09, and 2010. Cashman and Girardi build good bullpens on the fly, without the need for expensive free agent relievers.

  268. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 6:56 pm

    “since when is a starting rotation 8 deep?”

    it takes about 8 in an organization to get through a season.

    if a starting rotation gets lucky and it’s original starting five doesn’t miss any starts that’s probably going to be a playoff team.

  269. 28 RINGS December 27th, 2010 at 6:56 pm

    “How can anyone reasonably project that Noesi and Phelps can pitch effectively in the major leagues much less in the AL East?

    Projecting any rookie that isin’t highly regarded (i.e. top prospect) to be a quality pitcher is a dangerous proposition. And the Yanks would need them to become quality pitchers from Day 1 next year, not even eventually working their way into a solid pitcher. Look at David Price’s first year. Look at Lesters, Buchholz, Matuz, etc. and those guys were highly ranked too.

    Asking a top prospect to perform league-averagely in his first year is a tall order. Asking 2nd/3rd tier arms to do so is asking the moon. In the NL maybe, not the AL East.

    I’d bet more rookies put up 5 ERA campaigns rather than quality seasons in their first year.

  270. MG December 27th, 2010 at 6:56 pm

    1. Scott Feldman
    2. Rich Hardin
    3. CJ Wilson
    4. Colby Lewis
    5 .Matt Harrison

    Your Texas Rangers starting rotation last April. They were the team that won the AL, isn’t that right?

  271. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 6:57 pm

    that so many are basing their hopes (prayers?) on baby magic beans from the system, most of whom have nothing more than a decent-mediocre half-season above A ball, tells you all you need to know about how $#!tty a job Brian Cashman has done.

    Time for a change.

  272. Mike Ri December 27th, 2010 at 6:57 pm

    MG –

    Can’t worry about the Rangers . .they had a Cinderella year.. (the Lee trade helped big time ) . but lets face it they took advantage of a weak divison. AND a Yankee team that couldn’t hit or pitch a lick… it happens ..

    But .. our pitching staff does concern me.

  273. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 6:58 pm

    Hey MG, the Rangers play in the weakest division in the league (maybe in all of baseball). The Yankees play in the unquestioned toughest.

    Small difference.

  274. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 6:58 pm

    it takes about 8 in an organization to get through a season.

    if a starting rotation gets lucky and it’s original starting five doesn’t miss any starts that’s probably going to be a playoff team.

    No team has 8 sure things sitting around. The closest is the Dodgers, cause they signed 4 back end guys to fill up the rotation.

  275. 28 RINGS December 27th, 2010 at 6:59 pm

    “Your Texas Rangers starting rotation last April. They were the team that won the AL, isn’t that right?”

    Even if that had been their rotation for the whole year, with the way the Angels collapsed, they would have probably still made the playoffs.

    And gamechangers Cliff Lee’s don’t become available every year either. If Cashman’s plan is to find some bad team to give him their star ace at the deadline, well, that is a plan set up for failure.

  276. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 7:02 pm

    And gamechangers Cliff Lee’s don’t become available every year either. If Cashman’s plan is to find some bad team to give him their star ace at the deadline, well, that is a plan set up for failure.

    The Yankees already have an Ace, and Hughes. They don’t need another ace. Waiting for a nice consistent guy to come available would do it though. Gavin Floyd type.

  277. MG December 27th, 2010 at 7:02 pm

    It’s easy to complain, I’ve seen enough baseball to know that games are won or lost on the field, not on blogs. CC, Hughes, and Burnett will win at least 50 games among them and whoever pitches in the other spots at least 10 each-add 20-25 games out of the bullpen and you have 90-95 wins, more than enough to make the playoffs since the Rays aren’t going to be a factor and no other team in the league has improved themselves enough to get there. The playoffs, as everyone knows, is a crapshoot, whoever is hot and stays hot will win.

    Back to my winter baseball hibernation…

  278. Stoneburner December 27th, 2010 at 7:02 pm

    Noesi is a relief option at this stage – until the pitches develop further – throws strikes – too many implosions in AAA

  279. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 7:03 pm

    What on gods green earth does the Texas Rangers rotation last spring have to do with the Yankees in 2011? Nothing? Ok.

  280. Melk Man December 27th, 2010 at 7:03 pm

    I would take Tampa’s depth over pretty much any team

    Price, Garza, Shields, Davis, Niemenn, McGee, Sonnenstein, Hellickson, McGee, Moore, etc.

  281. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 7:04 pm

    “If Cashman’s plan is to find some bad team to give him their star ace at the deadline, well, that is a plan set up for failure.”
    —————————————————————————————————–
    What else would you expect from that worthless sack of dog$#!t, Brian Cashman?

    This is the same guy who thought he was doing “something big” when he re-traded for Javier Crapzquez last season. Everybody (besides Cashman) who thought that was a good idea, raise your hand.

    Didn’t think so.

    Cashman = failed. Time for a change.

  282. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 7:05 pm

    jerkface-

    Noesi,Phelps, and Aceves all are unavailable or should be unavailable for the first few months of the year.

    noesi has virtually no triple a experience at all. phelps has a little.
    aceves? who knows if he’ll even pitch this year?

    you’re making no sense right now.

    “Shoot we might still have Jason Hirsch.”

    yeah , what’s up with him and what about romulo sanchez?
    they both had a lot of triple a innings last year.
    any potential with those guys as #7 or # 8 guys in the pecking order ?

  283. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 7:05 pm

    I would take Tampa’s depth over pretty much any team

    Price, Garza, Shields, Davis, Niemenn, McGee, Sonnenstein, Hellickson, McGee, Moore, etc.

    Shields 5 ERA last year – oh no! /burnett’d
    McGee – Hasn’t started above AA , reliever
    Sonnanstine – Garbage
    McGee – he is on here twice, but that doesn’t give him any extra starts above AA
    Moore – Was in A ball last year? How is this depth? If thats depth I call upon the Bs!

  284. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 7:07 pm

    Face, I do understand that a bullpen is an ever evolving situation….That being said, going into the season with a rotation with what you have proposed is going to evaporate the bullpen by Memorial Day…..Under the current configuration, the pitching staff looks very thin to me on all fronts……Still quite some work to be done, and I don’t buy the notion of not spending some dough to fix the bullpen when there’s some proven guys on the younger side…….Can’t have it both ways right now…..

  285. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 7:09 pm

    Noesi,Phelps, and Aceves all are unavailable or should be unavailable for the first few months of the year.

    noesi has virtually no triple a experience at all. phelps has a little.
    aceves? who knows if he’ll even pitch this year?

    Luckily Aceves was my 9, so I don’t have to include him in the cut but he’d be a nice 2nd half option. Whew! Phelps has 70 innings in AAA , which is more than David Price, Clayton Kershaw, Chad Billingsley, Jake McGee, etc.

    If we still have Hirsch I will put him ahead of Phelps and Noesi, but they will both be on the list for next year. No team has 8 guys they can call up from the start of the year, and if they do they are likely not very good or else they’d already be in the rotation. You need 8 to get through a year right? So I am accounting for added AAA time for Phelps and Noesi. Mitchell too! By the time Phelps gets a call he may have 150 innings in AAA. Thats your magic number right? Or close to it?

    We also have the Venerable Kei Igawa. One final hurrah for Shades?

  286. Tank December 27th, 2010 at 7:12 pm

    “”Noesi is a relief option at this stage – until the pitches develop further – throws strikes – too many implosions in AAA”

    Agree. And Phelps has no outpitch, as RAB noted.

    Our “depth” is greatly exaggerated. Any team can list their AA/AAA pitchers and call it “depth”. The question is, quality depth.

    Warren, Noesi, Phelps, Stoneburner, etc. are no more proven than the minor leaguers on other teams. Yet somehow because they are Yankees, they will turn into quality pitchers immediately out of ST. huh?

  287. 108 stitches December 27th, 2010 at 7:13 pm

    I’d be curious to know if Andy has started his normal, offseason training regimen prior to reporting to spring training.
    If not, it’s likely a sure sign that he’s retiring.

  288. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 7:14 pm

    Still quite some work to be done

    Who do you acquire for the bullpen? Theres only room for 1 more…

    Mo
    Robertson
    Joba
    Logan
    Feliciano
    Whomever
    Long Man

  289. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 7:14 pm

    At this point in time we effectively have a three-man rotation and one of those three is a huge question mark. (He is heavily tatooed).

    It’s not reasonable to project Nova and Mitre as being able to compete in the AL East. By what means of measurement does one do so? Nova could not get out of the fifth inning.

    It’s just absurd that we are in this untenable position December 27th. To question Cashman on this, is not gratuitous bashing. It’s as legitimate a question as one could ask.

  290. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 7:15 pm

    Noesi is a relief option at this stage – until the pitches develop further – throws strikes – too many implosions in AAA

    he has 3 starts in AAA, how can he have ‘too many implosions’? Further more, how can a guy who walked 1.9 / 9 need to throw strikes?

  291. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 7:16 pm

    In his minor league career, Noesi walks less than 2 per 9. This guy needs to throw strikes? He needs to throw some balls.

  292. yanks 27 December 27th, 2010 at 7:17 pm

    The question isin’t about if we have options in the minors, it’s whether or not they can become immediate contributors. Because that is what they need. If they start out like Hughes/Kennedy in 2008, getting knocked out of games early, not throwing strikes, etc. We can’t even give them the oppurtunity to experience growing pains, if guys suck, they will probably be shuttled out and 2 other guys will be brought up to see if they work, if not, they will be sent down and maybe they give a 2nd shot to one of the initial guys.

    The only way the “youth movement” is even remotely successful is if they have immediate success and sustain it. Really think Cash/Girardi are going to sit back while B level arms like Phelps or Noesi pitch to 5 ERAs through the first month?

  293. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 7:17 pm

    It’s not reasonable to project Nova and Mitre as being able to compete in the AL East. By what means of measurement does one do so? Nova could not get out of the fifth inning.

    How does anyone project anyone to do anything?

  294. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 7:17 pm

    QUOTE: “It’s just absurd that we are in this untenable position December 27th. To question Cashman on this, is not gratuitous bashing. It’s as legitimate a question as one could ask.”
    —————————————————————————————–
    A –

    FREAKING –

    MEN!

  295. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 7:18 pm

    QUOTE: “How does anyone project anyone to do anything?”
    ————————————————————————

    Are you looking for an answer more clever than past performance???

  296. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 7:20 pm

    Face ….So that I can understand your position today, are you telling us that you’re comfortable with The NY Yankee pitching staff as it sits today ?????

  297. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 7:22 pm

    Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 7:17 pm

    It’s not reasonable to project Nova and Mitre as being able to compete in the AL East. By what means of measurement does one do so? Nova could not get out of the fifth inning.

    How does anyone project anyone to do anything?

    *************

    By repeated performance and consistency at a level commensurate with what one will face in the future.

  298. EA December 27th, 2010 at 7:23 pm

    WC – You are being kind by saying we have a 3-man rotation lol. Putting any eggs in Burnett’s basket is a dangerous proposition. I do think he will be better, but the expectations for him, even from Cashman’s own mouth, is for him to be a “frontline” guy. Scary.

  299. G-C December 27th, 2010 at 7:24 pm

    I’m actually with Jerkface on this.

    I’d go to battle with the guys we have now, need be.

    Does anyone realize that of the “solid starting fives” the Yankees have the Yankees have thrown out there since 2004, almost none of them turned out that way?

    I think everyone here is underestimating a Sabathia/Hughes/Burnett front three. The Yankees won a World Series pretty easily with a front three of Sabathia/Burnett/Pettitte. I don’t think much has changed since then. Sure, Burnett is a bit more of a risk in terms of his projectability, but as people have so aptly pointed out, he was a very good pitcher over stretches last year. The ability is still there.

  300. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 7:24 pm

    Are you looking for an answer more clever than past performance???

    The idea that Nova cannot be expected to improve, or approach his abilities as shown in AAA is funny. If this were the case, no pitchers would make it out of the minors. We had difficulty, yes, in going deep in games, but he DID at times. 5.1, 5.2, 6.0 innings.

    Additionally, Nova was not ALLOWED to finish games. He never left with a high pitch count. He never approached 100 pitches in any game. Even his 6 inning outing he left with 91 pitches.

    In his early games he got pulled. And in both of his games against the Rays, his runners on base were all allowed to score. For the most part, he was removed for match ups. At the time it was September and Girardi had Royce Ring and Boone Logan available.

  301. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 7:25 pm

    By repeated performance and consistency at a level commensurate with what one will face in the future.

    How do they have repeated performance and consistency if they are not allowed to pitch at the level? You won’t let him pitch despite him holding his own as a 23 year old.

  302. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 7:26 pm

    Face ….So that I can understand your position today, are you telling us that you’re comfortable with The NY Yankee pitching staff as it sits today ?????

    I’m closer to comfortable than all of you are to panic-attack, I reckon.

  303. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 7:26 pm

    ” Phelps has 70 innings in AAA , which is more than David Price”

    jerkface-

    price was a little more talented wouldn’t you say ?

    but i’ll give you phelps as one of the eight.

    no way to noesi with 18 innings at triple a for april and may.

    maybe after the all-star break.

    i’m thinking we’re back to 2008 when the yankees needed a journeyman like livan for some serious inning eating.

  304. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 7:28 pm

    i’m thinking we’re back to 2008 when the yankees needed a journeyman like livan for some serious inning eating.

    We have Hirsch, I’m calling it now, he is still in our system. I can’t find any news to the contrary. So CC, AJ, Hughes, Mystery, Nova, Hirsch, Phelps, Mitre, Thats 8.

    Guys like Noesi and Mitchell will gather innings in the first half at AAA to show their stuff, and guys like Betances/Banuelos/Brackman might jump a level.

  305. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 7:30 pm

    “How do they have repeated performance and consistency if they are not allowed to pitch at the level? You won’t let him pitch despite him holding his own as a 23 year old”.

    ******************

    You have them pitch more than 3 and 12 games in AAA which is what Noesi and Phelps did. And you allow them to pitch on the major league level in September and in blowouts. Not as starters at the beginning of a season when you are going up against the premium level of talent in the AL East.

  306. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 7:30 pm

    price was a little more talented wouldn’t you say ?

    Well now if we’re letting it slide for Talent I don’t see how you’d be so down on Hughes/Joba/Kennedy, all of them were just as talented as Price. Price only had 2 pitches coming to the majors and they were barely functionable.

  307. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 7:30 pm

    What’s funny, Jerkface, is that ANY Yankees fan is actually OK with this team, for all their payroll, having nothing but question marks behind CC Sabathia.

    That Brian Cashman has overseen this team’s pitching falling to such a level is nothing short of ridiculous.

    Time for a change.

  308. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 7:32 pm

    I don’t think we have to concern ourselves with the baseball thoughts of Jerkface anymore.

    That ANYBODY would say something as silly as Ian Kennedy is or ever was “just as talented as David Price” is so far past the point of ridiculous, I can hardly stand it.

    What a joke.

  309. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 7:32 pm

    You have them pitch more than 3 and 12 games in AAA which is what Noesi and Phelps did. And you allow them to pitch on the major league level in September and in blowouts. Not as starters at the beginning of a season when you are going up against the premium level of talent in the AL East.

    Don’t change the subject. We’re talking about Ivan Nova here. You said you can’t project Ivan Nova to pitch in the AL east. He has 42 major league innings with a 4.50 ERA (which at 6 innings is a quality start). He pitched 145 innings in AAA with a 2.85 ERA. He throws 93-98 and has a good curve and decent change. He is a sinkerballer.

    Why can you not project him to pitch for the New York Yankees?

  310. G-C December 27th, 2010 at 7:33 pm

    How many pitchers in the league aren’t question marks? 10? 15? If you scrutinized every player at the same level that you hysterical “fans” do the only reliable pitchers in the league that would be “without question marks” would be the top ten or fifteen pitchers in the league.

    Phil Hughes won 18 games and was an all star in his first full season starting last year. Explain to me how he’s a “question mark.” Does anyone legitimately expect him to regress from that level? Really?

    Also, if Clay Buchholz pitches like he did last year his ERA will be closer to 5.00 than it will be to 2.00. He’s not nearly the pitcher that anyone here makes him out to be.

  311. Mike Ri December 27th, 2010 at 7:35 pm

    Theres still some time for Cashman to make a move.. But first things first . .Andy Brett Farve Pettite

  312. G-C December 27th, 2010 at 7:35 pm

    “That ANYBODY would say something as silly as Ian Kennedy is or ever was “just as talented as David Price” is so far past the point of ridiculous, I can hardly stand it.”

    ____________________________________________________________

    In Kennedy’s first full season starting, he had far superior numbers to Price in his first full season starting.

    Price undoubtedly has more potential, but upon getting to the majors, that potential doesn’t equate to talent. He was a one pitch pitcher at that point.

    Don’t underestimate Kennedy. He has the stuff and command to be one of the best ten or fifteen pitchers in baseball one day.

  313. Tar December 27th, 2010 at 7:37 pm

    Jerkface is playing handball with you guys. Every Time you hit one at him, he smacks it right back at you. Since I agree with him, it’s kind of fun to watch. :D

    The market has changed. There is a lot more teams, with a lot more money (and problems) competing for the same players. NY is not for everybody ( I like it that way).

    More and more teams are going to be relying on their farm systems, not to fill up a roster, but to supplement it, or fill holes.

    On paper the Yankees have less problems and more filler than a vast majority of other teams.

    The notion of having to get somebody, anybody because the team has some holes (in December) is ridiculous.

    If a move that makes sense comes up you do it. If not, I for one will get great pleasure at watching our prospects compete.

    My dark horse candidate– Warren

  314. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 7:38 pm

    Ian Kennedy is a rag-armed right-hander who has to have outstanding command of multiple pitches to succeed.

    David Price is a lefty who sit mid-90′s with a fastball that has OBSCENE movement and he can reach back for high 90′s when he heeds it.

    That ANYBODY would say (or even suggest) that Ian Kennedy is “just as talented” as David Price, or in any way comparable, for that matter, is so far past the point of ridiculous I can hardly stand it.

  315. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 7:39 pm

    ” So CC, AJ, Hughes, Mystery, Nova, Hirsch, Phelps, Mitre, Thats 8.”

    “mystery” probably needs to be pretty good.

  316. G-C December 27th, 2010 at 7:40 pm

    Potential doesn’t equate to talent.

    In his first full season starting, Kennedy threw four pitches and had command of all of them. Price threw 2 and had command of zero.

    No one is denying that Price is better, and more talented now than Kennedy is, but that wasn’t necessarily the case when he first got to the big leagues.

    He always had more potential. That doesn’t mean he had more talent. Talent = ability.

  317. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 7:40 pm

    Face….I’m on record as being excited about Nova in the rotation for the upcoming season, it’s the other rotation slot that is of great concern…..Then there’s the the gap in the bullpen……You may discount Kerry Wood’s contributions after his arrival, but he was a stopper out there in his 8th inning role and even worked the closer role as he offered Giradi a safety net so he could rest Rivera……And also, don’t dismiss Tampa Bay in 2011 they’ll be a 90 game win club…..

  318. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 7:40 pm

    From MLB-Rumors-R-Us..

    An interesting plan for Cuban ball players. Should lead to a lot of defections.

    “The Baseball Federation of Cuba is discussing the possibility of allowing baseball players to leave the country and play abroad as long as a portion of their salary returns to the Cuban government, according Yahoo’s Jeff Passan. Defections to MLB would likely continue, since Cuba would send its players to Japan, South Korea, Mexico and Europe, not the U.S.”

  319. blake December 27th, 2010 at 7:41 pm

    The Yankees can certainly win with what they have now and it very well could work out where they have a good staff…however there is a lot of risk and uncertainty currently.

    There is nothing wrong with wanting to reduce that risk if possible. If Pettite retires and Burnett doesn’t pitch better then the bullpen could become very taxed very quickly. The Yankee front office is currently weighing these risks vs the price tags of what’s out there I imagine….If they can add strength to either the rotation or bullpen or both then they should. If prices remain prohibitive then they can gamble early and re-evaluate during the season.

  320. Mike Ri December 27th, 2010 at 7:41 pm

    Tar-

    You need to take off your rosey colored glasses and realize …….. as is . .our Pitching SUCKS ..

    and you can throw in ALL the HYPE on the farm .. and all the dark horses you want …..it still morph our rotation into a contender . sorry

  321. AldotheApache December 27th, 2010 at 7:42 pm

    Tar December 27th, 2010 at 7:37 pm

    ————————————-

    Tar, agree with every single word of this post, save for the last sentence (don’t know anything about Warren).

  322. Mike Ri December 27th, 2010 at 7:43 pm

    Won’t

  323. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 7:43 pm

    ” Since I agree with him, it’s kind of fun to watch.”

    tar-

    you don’t see the problem of “mystery” being one of jerkfaces pitchers ?

    that’s a little flaw in the rotation wouldn’t you say?

  324. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 7:44 pm

    Face I am in no way changing the subject. We were all talking about the Yankees rotation and your depth chart which included Noesi and Phelps.

    As to Nova, suffice it to say you rely far too much on stats and metrics which are often deceiving and have no ability to project the future. I think you know this. Or shall I remind you that Bob Gibson was 6-11 with a 5.61 ERA when he was 24. It works both ways too. There are many pitchers who had great first years who bombed after that.

    But I’ll play along. Instead of cherry picking Nova’s stats like you just did, with the 4.50 ERA. What about his giving up more hits than innings pitched? Or his 1.452 WHIP? Or his 10 hits allowed per nine innings pitched?

  325. MG December 27th, 2010 at 7:44 pm

    Most of you wouldn’t be happy unless the Yankees rotation was CC, Lee, Halladay, Hughes and Andy and even then you would be worrying about injuries.

    Here is a history lesson: the Yankee of the late 50′s and early 60′s didn’t have premium pitchers in the rotation after Whitey Ford, they mixed and matched season after season. They got lucky with Bob Turley for a few years, had Rollie Sheldon win over 10 games making the jump from D ball to the majors another year, had Bill Stafford join the rotation at age 21, etc, etc etc.

    All I read is names on here. Names mean nothing. Just because Webb won a Cy Young a few years ago doesn’t make his loss something of concern. Same thing with all the other retreads that are available. There wasn’t a pitcher seemingly available before Lee signed with the Phillies who was worth an investment for the long term, they are much better either making a trade or signing a couple of guys to minor league contracts before spring training and letting someone win a job.

    I fully agree with Randy as well, Chamberlain should get a chance to start, if he wants to work for it, that’s great, if not, you might as well ship him out for someone who appreciates being a major leaguer enough to work at getting better.

    You can’t change what exists-it’s possible that 2011 is a transitional year before some of the young pitchers are ready. It’s also possible that Andy comes back and solidifies the rotation, do any of you really believe the Yankees aren’t doing everything possible to bring him back for a final year? At this point they can throw as much money as they want ($15-20M), it won’t change the long term finances and it might just get Andy motivated to go out on top with his buddy Jorge.

  326. blake December 27th, 2010 at 7:44 pm

    “.I’m on record as being excited about Nova in the rotation for the upcoming season, it’s the other rotation slot that is of great concern….”

    I agree. I’m fine with Nova as the 5, its Andy’s spot that I think they need to address if he retires. While they could add someone during the season if available, they could also burn the pen out and cause lasting damage for the season in that area….

  327. Tar December 27th, 2010 at 7:46 pm

    “as is . .our Pitching SUCKS ”

    If that is the case, so does the a majority of MLB teams.

    Aldo

    He’s a Heel. :D

  328. Doreen December 27th, 2010 at 7:47 pm

    Tar

    I am with you. I have been reading throughout the day and I am loving Jerkface’s posts and the volleying that is going on. I, too, agree with Jerkface.

  329. MG December 27th, 2010 at 7:47 pm

    Anyone who knows baseball and saw Nova pitch last year understands he has the ability to pitch at the major league level, he just needs experience and needs to learn how to be a winner. Whether the Yankees or Yankees fans are patient enough to live with the ups and downs is another story-Rays fans were giving up on David Price in 2009 when he was averaging 5+ innings per start and 100 pitches.

  330. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 7:48 pm

    And also, don’t dismiss Tampa Bay in 2011 they’ll be a 90 game win club…..

    Them and what army? They were already supremely lucky to be in the position they were in 2010. Their offense has taken some huge knocks. Their best returning hitters are John Jaso and Evan Longoria. We all know Longoria is really good, but he isn’t A-rod-Prime. They had 2 hitters OPS over .800 last year and 1 of them plays for Boston now.

    I don’t see them winning 90, or 90+. They did worse with a better team in 09.

  331. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 7:48 pm

    Ian Kennedy is going to be a very effective Big League pitcher who will win 15 games every season and will earn himself 75 million dollars over the term of his tenure in the league…….Remember Arizona demanded him in order to make the Granderson deal to work……Tin Cup, I was at the range today hitting balls with my new 7 wood…..Much easier to hit than my 3 iron…..

  332. BoJo December 27th, 2010 at 7:48 pm

    MG–Good points. Also, if Joba Chamberlain was given shot at SP, I think he could provide enough good outings with the bad ones to at least be better than Javy was.

  333. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 7:51 pm

    No one is downplaying Nova’s potential long term. It’s a question of an average performance last year and whether or not one can have reasonable expectations that he will be an effective number four starter, going up against Boston and Toronto’s bats.

  334. TheStraw December 27th, 2010 at 7:52 pm

    95 wins people…with AJ and Javy and an injured Andy, an inconsistent Phil and filler like Moseley. I don’t see how the rotation can’t improve from last year.

  335. Joe from Long Island December 27th, 2010 at 7:53 pm

    Hi all –

    1. I don’t think anyone is all that comfortable with our pitching staff right now. However, outside of the TV, no one gets awarded a championship in the offseason. Just like we’re not all that happy with the Yanks’ pitching staff, I can’t imagine the Yankees are happy about it either. It’s not horrible, but it may not be championship caliber. But, today is December 27, aren’t any games that count for a while.

    You don’t say out loud that you’re desperate, not unless you want to be taken to the cleaners. Similarly, we have no idea (outside of Pat M., maybe) what Cashman is working on. Billingsley, Zambrano, whomever. Cash has said that there is starting pitching available, it just depends on what you’re willing to pay.

    If you want to pay top price, just announce that you’re hungry. There are plenty of people who would be willing to advantage of you.

    2. Does anyone have a count on how many days till ST?

  336. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 7:53 pm

    QUOTE: “No one is denying that Price is better, and more talented now than Kennedy is.”
    ————————————————————————————————–
    You obviously didn’t read Jerkface’s post.

  337. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 7:54 pm

    Doreen….So it’s you who is serving Face all the Brandy & Eggnogs today ……

  338. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 7:55 pm

    NYYs only need to total 35 wins out of the 3-5 spots as they did last year. That shouldn’t be that difficult to accomplish. The chances are that they will exceed that. Sabathia and Hughes should be close to what they had last year. The bullpens generally win between 25-30 wins a year. As always, the Yanks will get their wins. It may not always be pretty, but, they’ll get them. NYY may have to run in 5-7 starters into those last 3 slots, but, wins are wins.

  339. tyanksfan36 December 27th, 2010 at 7:56 pm

    MG

    I think that’s a bit reaching to say that people would only be happy with that rotation. I mean, it would be nice and the Yankees did try to get Halladay and Lee and neither worked out. I think there is a big majority of people on here that are fine with Nova or another minor league guy coming up and being the 5th starter, they’re just worried what will happen if Andy doesn’t come back. As for Joba starting, he should come to ST fit and trim and not 15 lbs heavier and ask to prove himself. Given that Cashman says he is in the pen, your throwing his name out there to start is like me saying I wish we had gone after Webb. Its not happening.

  340. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 7:56 pm

    The big-picture question here was the entire Yankees rotation. It’s clearly not in the top ten in baseball, I don’t think we need a panel of scouts and general managers to tell us the obvious, but they did.

    We have a three man rotation that has ample big league experience to compete and one of them, Burnett, is potentially a disaster.

  341. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 7:57 pm

    As to Nova, suffice it to say you rely far too much on stats and metrics which are often deceiving and have no ability to project the future. I think you know this. Or shall I remind you that Bob Gibson was 6-11 with a 5.61 ERA when he was 24. It works both ways too. There are many pitchers who had great first years who bombed after that.

    But I’ll play along. Instead of cherry picking Nova’s stats like you just did, with the 4.50 ERA. What about his giving up more hits than innings pitched? Or his 1.452 WHIP? Or his 10 hits allowed per nine innings pitched?

    You want to talk scouting? Nova has an easy delivery which allows him to get the fastball into the upper 90s, but relies on a mid 90s sinking fastball to do most of his dirty work. He offsets this with two offspeed pitches, a curve which is major league ready and a change up that flashes average. in addition to this, he can change the eye level with an upstairs fastball at 98.

    You are the one relying on stats/metrics, since innings pitches is a stat. I am saying his AAA time + Major time shows a pitcher that can succeed in the majors and should be given a shot. If anything, I am likely throwing stats into the wind.

    Also hilarious, ‘instead of cherry picking his stats here I will cherry pick’. He is a pitch to contact guy, he will almost always be giving up hits. Due to his sinker, they should be ground balls, and like Wang, it will allow him to escape jams.

    He is not a future ace, but if you allow him to pitch in the majors he will likely be above average. You are projecting him not to be, because of 40 innings he pitched in the majors, while ignoring his 140 innings in the minors and his scouting reports.

    Step off.

  342. Doreen December 27th, 2010 at 7:57 pm

    Just to say that I understand some of the questions but I totally do not understand the total pessimism regarding the starting rotation.

    But last year the starting rotation looked pretty dern good going into the season. I really do not recall who the three insurance guys were. Maybe Aceves and Mitre, but who was number three? Some guy from the AAA club , whoever was performing best.

    So, now, maybe it is two guys from AAA, and how is that different from most other teams or the Yankees themselves, most years?

  343. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 7:59 pm

    Joe from Long Island……Hope your Christmas met all your expectations and wishes….My good Doctor, all I;m doing is passing on some baseball chatter that come up over a few beers with guys I know who are in the industry…..For the most part they are scouts at different capacities….I do have a friend who actually works in the Angel Front Office but mostly much is hearsay 2nd hand information……

  344. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 8:00 pm

    QUOTE: “NYYs only need to total 35 wins out of the 3-5 spots as they did last year.”
    ————————————————————————————————–
    So they only need those three rotation spots to average 12 wins??? Well hell, that’s easy. Doesn’t EVERYBODY win 12 games a year?

  345. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:00 pm

    So, now, maybe it is two guys from AAA, and how is that different from most other teams or the Yankees themselves, most years?

    Its not, everyone is in an uproar about nothing. The Red Sox don’t have 3 guys in AAA waiting to ride to the rescue. The rays don’t have 3 guys. The Jays and Orioles don’t have 3 guys. They’ll all be throwing re-treads / insurance guys and terrible waiver pickups.

    No team in the major leagues has 8 quality guys to throw into the grinder. This is why the average ERA of the 4 and 5 starter in the Majors is over 6

  346. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 8:01 pm

    QUOTING Jerkface: “You want to talk scouting? Nova has an easy delivery which allows him to get the fastball into the upper 90s…”
    ———————————————————————————————-
    You’re the same guy who thinks Ian Kennedy is “just as talented” as David Price… Right???

  347. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 8:01 pm

    Face you presented one stat, ERA, that is cherry picking. I provided a more complete picture. The bottom line is that depending upon an unknown commodity like Nova is not the way to compete to win a world championship IMO.

  348. MG December 27th, 2010 at 8:02 pm

    Nova’s stats in the majors last season mean nothing. He showed the talent and stuff to be a successful starter in the majors, he just needs to work at refining his craft and have the Yankees live with the ups and downs. If it’s me running the team (it’s not) I put him in the rotation until he shows me he isn’t interested in improvement.

    That’s the thing that makes Phil Hughes special in my eye, he obviously wants to be a star in the league and continues to work at it. And that’s exactly the trait that Chamberlain is missing, unfortunately.

  349. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 8:04 pm

    YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 8:00 pm
    QUOTE: “NYYs only need to total 35 wins out of the 3-5 spots as they did last year.”
    ————————————————————————————————–
    So they only need those three rotation spots to average 12 wins??? Well hell, that’s easy. Doesn’t EVERYBODY win 12 games a year?

  350. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:04 pm

    You’re the same guy who thinks Ian Kennedy is “just as talented” as David Price… Right???

    Are you Bret the Hitman? you have OCD where you just post the same thing over and over again. Please review Ian Patrick Kennedy’s minor league resume before arriving to the major league level. His talent is built on great offspeed + command, but the talent level was the same as Price entering the majors. The point, which had nothing to do with you, related to Randy’s supposition that the Yankees rushed Hughes/Joba/Kennedy, but gave the Rays a pass on Price because ‘he’s good’ (despite them starting him in the bullpen, and him throwing a 4.5 era season his first year).

    Please do not troll.

  351. Doreen December 27th, 2010 at 8:05 pm

    Pat M

    Indubitably. Lol

    I think this off season is feeling longer than most. I think the last two off seasons have been particularly successful for the Yankees and that makes this season look especially bleak. The Yankees have largely been successful when they go big game hunting and they were not successful in bagging Lee,they’re one true target. That also colors the landscape.

    People also have too much time on their hands and seem to be obsessed with the Yankees fielding a perfect team, in spite of the hundreds of posts over the four years I have bee on the Lohud blog that scream that the Yankees should not have an all star at every position.

    I am still optimist. About the Yankees, even if theta do not look finished right now.

  352. MG December 27th, 2010 at 8:06 pm

    Pat M, do you really think Andy is going to call it a career knowing he can still pitch at a very high level? The only thing I can see doing that is, like you mentioned, the Roger trial and his likely involvement-based on my one morning on the golf course with them in ’03 it was clear those guys were as close as brothers back then.

  353. DocTodd December 27th, 2010 at 8:07 pm

    When does Cashman implement plan B,C or D??

  354. Tar December 27th, 2010 at 8:07 pm

    Randy

    I agree the rotation has flaws, Jerk’s ideas come with risk. But what is the alternative?

    Sign someone for the sake of signing someone, or make a trade even though there maybe an in house candidate that makes more sense ( all things considered).

    Cash has always been a veteran over rookie guy anyway, so my guess is something is brewing. I just hope he doesn’t cave in.

    Right now, just a lot of typical Yankee fan impatience going on. My bet is soon the anger is going to be directed at Andy ( hope not).

  355. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 8:07 pm

    WCYF…….I see Ivan Nova being a nice 5th arm in the rotation who will have a fesh arm in 2011……..I do wish Brackman was ready to make the bullpen coming out of camp this season……..Break these guys into ythe bigs with a stint in the pen and then gradually promote the one’s who pass the audition into the rotation without rushing them up……..

  356. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 8:07 pm

    QUOTE: “His talent is built on great offspeed + command, but the talent level was the same as Price entering the majors.”
    ———————————————————————————————————-
    That must be why Price was the unquestioned #1 overall pick in the draft and Kennedy was drafted with a compensation pick at the back end of the first round.

    Go find ANY major league baseball talent evaluator and tell him Kennedy’s “talent level was the same as Price entering the majors” and see how long it takes him to stop laughing.

    I do appreciate your honesty on this matter. It’s very revealing and let’s me know how much weight should be placed in your baseball opinions.

  357. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:08 pm

    Face you presented one stat, ERA, that is cherry picking. I provided a more complete picture. The bottom line is that depending upon an unknown commodity like Nova is not the way to compete to win a world championship IMO.

    The bottom line is that pitchers who dominate a season in AAA and pitch ok in the majors can be projected to pitch in the majors. Which is the assertion I was arguing against. You claimed that we could not project Nova to pitch in the AL east due to some consistency mumbo jumbo.

  358. Joe from Long Island December 27th, 2010 at 8:08 pm

    MG – I agree completely about 1) Ivan Nova (I’m still looking forward to my Ivan Nova autographed Scranton cap to become a collector’s item), 2) a Yankees’ history lesson, and 3) the intrinsic value of names.

    Pat M. – I agree, Ian Kennedy will have himself a very nice ML career.

  359. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 8:09 pm

    YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 8:00 pm
    QUOTE: “NYYs only need to total 35 wins out of the 3-5 spots as they did last year.”
    ————————————————————————————————–
    So they only need those three rotation spots to average 12 wins??? Well hell, that’s easy. Doesn’t EVERYBODY win 12 games a year?

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    You’re still an idiot, Larry. Not only are you an idiot, but, you’ve never done anything but troll and trash every board you’ve been on with your complaints/whining. Shouldn’t you be more worried about your Ranger pitching staff? The Yankees will get their 12+ wins from Burnett and they’ve been patching together the bottom of the rotation for years with castoffs and rookies and getting 20+ wins from there.

  360. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:10 pm

    That must be why Price was the unquestioned #1 overall pick in the draft and Kennedy was drafted with a compensation pick at the back end of the first round.

    Wow, making distinctions between numbers of the first round are we? Here are some numbers

    In the minor leagues, kennedy pitched more innings, gave up less runs, less hits, walked less, less home runs, and struck out more than david price. What is baseball if not your performance on the field?

    Who is more talented Greg Maddux or Randy Johnson? I did not ask who is more physically gifted.

  361. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 8:11 pm

    QUOTE: “Pat M. – I agree, Ian Kennedy will have himself a very nice ML career.”
    ————————————————————————————————–
    And given health, David Price will have a dominant, Hall of Fame career. The is no comparing the two.

  362. Mike Ri December 27th, 2010 at 8:11 pm

    When does Cashman implement plan B,C or D??–

    – Don’t hold your breath

  363. MG December 27th, 2010 at 8:11 pm

    GB, have you checked out Larry’s Yankees website (I clicked on his name and there it was). He’s not a troll, just a Yankees fan with limited knowledge who believes it’s the Yankees given right to win the WS every year. He just blames Cashman for not achieving that…

  364. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:13 pm

    MG,

    I’ve checked the site

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_r3yj.....0-h/Me.jpg

    This is a troll in appearance if not spirit.

  365. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 8:14 pm

    Apparently Jerkface does not know the definition of the word “talent.”

    Randy Johnson was FAR more TALENTED than Greg Maddux was.

  366. SAS December 27th, 2010 at 8:15 pm

    MG.

    You said something that everyone should read. Even in the Great Days of the Yankees the pitching wasn’t so strong most of the time. Yes, I remember the years of Rashi, Reynolds, Lopat and Whitey, but those years didn’t last forever. They have always had to piece pitching together. The earlier guys pitched even when they had nothing. There were no big bullpens.

    Now we need 5 CC’s or maybe that isn’t even good enough. I truly believe the Yankees will come up with a 4th pitcher, Andy, or someone else with experience. As GB said if they can win 12 games that should be enough.

    Also, teams on paper are never as good or as bad as they seem.

  367. Bx is Burning December 27th, 2010 at 8:15 pm

    Ruby is:
    a) bald
    b) impotent
    c) morbidly obese
    d) all of the above?

  368. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 8:16 pm

    Pat M., I can see Brackman going north out of the pen if NYYs don’t pick up one more bullpen pitcher. He can come in and just gas everyone. It’s an upper 90s pitch that moves, but, he’s also got that big curve to go with a change-up. When he was put in the pen midway through the ’09 season is when the control came around and it didn’t desert him in ’10 when he went back into the rotation.

  369. Bx is Burning December 27th, 2010 at 8:16 pm

    d) :(

  370. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 8:17 pm

    “No team in the major leagues has 8 quality guys to throw into the grinder. This is why the average ERA of the 4 and 5 starter in the Majors is over 6″- jerkface

    pat m-

    i think i’m having deja vu all over again.

    it’s like the winter of 2008 when the yankees had three decent to good veteran starters in wang, mussina, and pettitte.

    when one got hurt ( wang) all hell broke loose.

    right now the yankees have three decent to good veteran starters . the good news is one is an ace.

    but some people are going to be embarrassed here just like they were in fall 2008 if they keep running the names of kids out here this winter as an answer to the yankees starting pitching problems.

    the yankees need some serious inning eating veteran presence. it doesn’t matter if it’s at a 5.00 era rate either because that will work with the yankee offense.

    the thing that sucked about vazquez was he was paid a lot of money to give innings at 5.20 rate. but those innings were valuable. people can say some young kid could do that, but in reality it doesn’t happen that way.

    they tend to implode like hughes and kennedy did and throw 3-4 innings in the process each start while pitching to an 8 era.

    i say one young guy and that’s probably nova.

    for innings eating the yankees need a veteran.

  371. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:17 pm

    1.
    a special natural ability or aptitude: a talent for drawing.
    2.
    a capacity for achievement or success; ability: young men of talent.

    Apparently throwing a baseball with precision and movement is not a natural ability or a capacity for success and achievement in baseball.

    Someone tell Mo he has no talent.

  372. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 8:19 pm

    I do not dislike Ivan Nova, I think he has a good arm and a good future. What I object to is slotting him in as our number four starter; it’s not desirable, it’s no one’s first choice and there is no excuse imaginable for the Yankees being in this position.

    The winter is not over, I like the vision of Cashman and his staff hunkered down planning an impactful three way deal that will result in a more competitive rotation. I hope I am right.

  373. Mell December 27th, 2010 at 8:20 pm

    “In Kennedy’s first full season starting, he had far superior numbers to Price in his first full season starting”

    This sort of ignores the fact that in what was supposed to be Kennedy’s first full season starting, he was so bad that he only made it 1/3 of the way thru the season before being sent down.

  374. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:21 pm

    I do not dislike Ivan Nova, I think he has a good arm and a good future. What I object to is slotting him in as our number four starter; it’s not desirable, it’s no one’s first choice and there is no excuse imaginable for the Yankees being in this position.

    Rotational slots in practice don’t exist. You objected to including him in the rotation at all. Suggesting he cannot be projected to pitch in the AL east. Please, back track more and try and change your argument.

    Perhaps you’d like to find a mediots article on Ivan Nova to share with your opinion with?

  375. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 8:21 pm

    MG December 27th, 2010 at 8:11 pm
    GB, have you checked out Larry’s Yankees website (I clicked on his name and there it was). He’s not a troll, just a Yankees fan with limited knowledge who believes it’s the Yankees given right to win the WS every year. He just blames Cashman for not achieving that…

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    MG, I saw it a long time ago, and nothing’s changed. Nobody ever answers or discusses any of the articles….not one of them. He trolled every ESPN board and spewed the same trash as he’s started here. He’s also a Texas Rangers fan. In my opinion and others, his remarks have always labeled him “troll”.

  376. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 8:22 pm

    One more thing Face. You know that after some time goes by, the order of a rotation becomes subject to a number of variables and the pitching days fall where they fall.

    Can you really say that you would be happy going into Boston or Toronto for a three-game with Burnett, Nova and Mitre as your starting pitchers?

  377. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 8:24 pm

    I am so glad to see a respected, knowledgeable, intelligent member of this board come forward and basically say “all u idiots claiming this staff is fine are blind”. Noesi, nova, mitre, phelps, etc…….these guys have one thing in common, none of them are starters for a contending team…….no less two of them.

    This is a putrid rotation, stop kidding yourselves by pretending it is. I’m as big a fan as anyone, but have the ability to seperate my loyalty to the yankees from reality. The reality is, this rotation is not good and isn’t enough to get this team in the playoffs as it currently stands.

  378. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:24 pm

    One more thing Face. You know that after some time goes by, the order of a rotation becomes subject to a number of variables and the pitching days fall where they fall.

    Can you really say that you would be happy going into Boston or Toronto for a three-game with Burnett, Nova and Mitre as your starting pitchers?

    The yankees have thrown worse in bigger series. And the same can be said for the red sox. And any team, throwing their back end into the Yankees. I like going into toronto though, those guys have no plate discipline.

  379. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 8:27 pm

    “You objected to including him in the rotation at all. Suggesting he cannot be projected to pitch in the AL east. Please, back track more and try and change your argument. Perhaps you’d like to find a mediots article on Ivan Nova to share with your opinion with?”

    ******************

    That’s ok Face. When you are soundly thrashed on the playing field of ideas, no matter how politely people do so, you inevitably resort back to personalizing the disagreements and you call the media names.

  380. Mell December 27th, 2010 at 8:28 pm

    “This is a putrid rotation, stop kidding yourselves by pretending it is”

    Putrid is what the Royals throw. What the Yankees have is a rotation that has some flaws, many of which could be minimized with a 200 IP veteran hurler.

  381. MG December 27th, 2010 at 8:29 pm

    SAS, thanks for your comments, it just makes no sense, IMO, to spend the entire offseason worrying about the starting rotation when there is so much that can happen before the start of the season and how much could change during the course of it as well. I think the Yankees made a big improvement in hiring Larry Rothschild as the pitching coach, that alone could significantly improve the performance of several of the starters (or potential starters) in 2011.

  382. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 8:31 pm

    Nova’s only real issues in NY late last season was undurance. He passed his innings high by 40 innings, not counting winter ball and spring traininginnings. He should have no problems getting to and through the 6th inning in the up coming season. He has the fastball and the other pitches to be a very good #4-#5 pitcher. All he needs to be in a low to mid 4 ERA. He’ll get his wins. The lack of endurance in the 5th inning was his only problem. The early innings were never an issue.

  383. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:31 pm

    When you are soundly thrashed on the playing field of ideas

    You haven’t a chance of thrashing anybody on any field of ideas until you get some of your own. Any heyman-isms you wanna throw at us? You cannot even argue a coherent point, you change it up so much because you can’t back up any of your empty-radio nonsense.

  384. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 8:32 pm

    Randy I…..You are right about this having the scent of 2008…….Both Hughes and Kennedy were hurt and didn’t say a word about this to Giradi……..Nova is ready to be worked into the rotation but Cashman must find a vet starter to fill the void over the next 2 seasons……Kennedy dropped in the draft because he wasn’t 100 % during his Junior year at USC……The year before he was outstanding……Be certain of this, the Bombers would love to have him as their # 4 pitcher right about now…….If AJ didn’t nosedive once the calendar turned to June last season everyone here would be feeling much better right now……Burnett will win the AL Comeback of the year award in 2011….

  385. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 8:32 pm

    Mell – the rotation is putrid. Until the greinke trade, it matched up with the royals rotation actually.

  386. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2010 at 8:35 pm

    “……Burnett will win the AL Comeback of the year award in 2011….”

    I’d rather it be Jeter and eat a heaping helping of crow. Actually, I wouldn’t have to eat much because I think he will be better in 2011 (if he isn’t, he’s basically a BUI), but not enough to be the CotY.

  387. MG December 27th, 2010 at 8:35 pm

    How can a rotation headed by two guys (CC and Hughes) who won 38 games between them in 2010? That’s just ridiculous.

  388. MG December 27th, 2010 at 8:35 pm

    How can a rotation be putrid, that is…

  389. brads77 December 27th, 2010 at 8:36 pm

    BoJo December 27th, 2010 at 7:48 pm

    MG–Good points. Also, if Joba Chamberlain was given shot at SP, I think he could provide enough good outings with the bad ones to at least be better than Javy was.
    ———————–
    Joba also could turn out to be a top of the rotation guy given the right support and the opportunity.

  390. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 8:36 pm

    Face, my ideas are entirely my own and you don’t back up opinions with meaningless stats as you so often do. You back it up with rational thought. Unlike yours which are usually pulled from some sabermetrics bible. You can knock Jon Heyman all you want to. He has forgotten more about baseball than you will ever know.

    Dismissed.

  391. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2010 at 8:36 pm

    CC CYA
    Hughes rising star
    AJ talented but inconsistent
    Nova can probably be counted on to be league average

    If that’s putrid, they have changed the definition of the word in the dictionary while I was having dinner.

  392. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:37 pm

    There is no way 2010 comes close to 2008. 2008 was just such a disaster starting pitching and offense wise. Theres too much quality in the minors to repeat 2008. Look at this:

    Rasner 113 IP 5.40 ERA
    Ponson 80 IP 5.8 ERA
    Kennedy 40 IP 8 ERA
    Hughes 34 IP 6.6 ERA
    Pavano 37 IP 5.7 ERA

    Thats 300 of some of the worst innings you’ll ever see. Wang and Pettitte combined for 300 innings of 4.3 ERA ball.

    The best pitcher was Mussina.

    2008 was just awful.

  393. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:38 pm

    You back it up with rational thought.

    Thank you, I try.

  394. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2010 at 8:38 pm

    “You can knock Jon Heyman all you want to. He has forgotten more about baseball than you will ever know.”

    Too funny. You’re confusing the ability to report (which Heyman is quite good at), with the ability to analyze (which Heyman actually sucks at).

  395. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:38 pm

    God bless you, Freud.

  396. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 8:39 pm

    Joba will be a top of the rotation guy when he pitches for the The Hokkaido Nippon-Ham Fighters.

  397. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 8:39 pm

    So because the guys who will start 68 of the 162 games won 18 games each last year……the rotation is good?

    How we going to manage the other 94 games? And remind me what phil hughes era was last year?

  398. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2010 at 8:43 pm

    ” And remind me what phil hughes era was last year?”

    Pre AS: 3.65
    Post AS: 4.90

    Stamina issues are a likely key factor in the disparity.

  399. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:43 pm

    The Royals didnt have 1 guy pitch under a 4.17 ERA. The Yankees were an average pitching staff last year. I don’t see them pitching below that next year.

  400. MG December 27th, 2010 at 8:43 pm

    Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 8:39 pm
    So because the guys who will start 68 of the 162 games won 18 games each last year……the rotation is good?

    How we going to manage the other 94 games? And remind me what phil hughes era was last year?
    ———————————
    so not putrid=good in your dictionary?

    As Pat M says, they need another veteran in the rotation. If Andy comes back then they are fine. If he doesn’t, they’ll pick up someone either by trade or free agency to fill in that role.

  401. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:44 pm

    Post AS: 4.90

    Stamina issues are a likely key factor in the disparity.

    Hughes Post AS break ERA if you remove the blue jays was 3.7, so unless he is only going to pitch against the blue jays he can be counted on to keep the team in games. This of course doesn’t count his inevitable improvements.

  402. Tar December 27th, 2010 at 8:46 pm

    ” And remind me what phil hughes era was last year?”

    I would say it was 1.5 runs better than Beckett.

  403. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 8:47 pm

    “Too much talent in the minors” – then a list that includes the failed 08 rotation with hughes and kennedy……sorry, but phelps, noesi, and nova aren’t “generation trey redux” are they? So why is there too much talent?

    Definition of putrid:

    Yankees staff was 13th in the AL in ERA post the ASB last year:

    Since then, kerry wood left and andy pettitte hasn’t commited to returning.

    I would call 13th worst in the AL putrid on its own. Then factor in that andy was there in the first half to lighten the load and when he went down and missed most of the 2nd half, the staff fell apart. Why if he doesn’t come back for 2011 will that change?

    Why is ivan nova as a #4 starter a good thing now?

    Why are we optimistic AJ Burnett can’t get worse? AJ Burnett can pitch himself out of baseball in 2011 for all anyone knows.

    Stop pretending folks. Its not good.

  404. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2010 at 8:47 pm

    “Hughes Post AS break ERA if you remove the blue jays was 3.7, so unless he is only going to pitch against the blue jays he can be counted on to keep the team in games. This of course doesn’t count his inevitable improvements.”

    “Unlike yours which are usually pulled from some sabermetrics bible.”

    Jerkface proved you wrong again, WCYF.

  405. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 8:48 pm

    Tar – who is talking about beckett? Is beckett the #2 starter in boston? Does he have to be? Ur expectation for hughes far exceed a boston fans expectations for beckett. They could conceivably get nothing from him and still win the division.

  406. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 8:49 pm

    Rich in NJ……I’m not certain if it was CB or Randy who pointed out that AJ became so rotational in his windup late last season ??? But if you go back and look at video of him it’s so apparent now……His willingness and desire to get “fixed” should be looked upon as a very positive step as it’s just a mechanical flaw that can be adjusted……If only Mr. Chamberlain was as eager then we wouldn’t have these rotation concerns….I’m still at odds about where he belongs but every baseball guy I talk to say he’s a bullpen guy who could be and should be lights out reliever……And they been saying this all the long…..

  407. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:49 pm

    The Yankees retain the leagues leading offense, which includes a young core group of hitters bolstered by 3 older veteran hall of famers. It will potentially include the best hitter in the minor leagues. I mentioned this in the morning, but the yankees are going to be just fine.

  408. brads77 December 27th, 2010 at 8:49 pm

    Joba has the ability, velocity and pitch aresenal to be a top end guy in the rotation. He had a shoulder injury that limited his effectiveness. I think he will blossom this spring and prove his doubters wrong.

  409. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 8:49 pm

    “Hughes Post AS break ERA if you remove the blue jays was 3.7, so unless he is only going to pitch against the blue jays he can be counted on to keep the team in games. This of course doesn’t count his inevitable improvements”.

    ************************

    Breaking News! The Toronto Blue Jays are no longer in the AL East and we will no longer face them 18 time per year.

  410. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:50 pm

    They could conceivably get nothing from him and still win the division.

    Explain this? Are you a fan of boston? They are going to get nothing from beckett? where all the wins coming from? Daisuke? Wakefield? Lackey?

    They have Lester, who is great, and Buchholz who had a great ERA but did not pitch great.

  411. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:51 pm

    Breaking News! The Toronto Blue Jays are no longer in the AL East and we will no longer face them 18 time per year.

    Breaking news: After much consternation, Joe Girardi decides to not go with the 1 man Hughes rotation.

  412. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2010 at 8:51 pm

    “Breaking News! The Toronto Blue Jays are no longer in the AL East and we will no longer face them 18 time per year.”

    It’s still likely a skewed, unrepresentative, and therefore, likely an ungeneralizable sample.

  413. Tar December 27th, 2010 at 8:51 pm

    Carlo

    Since you asked about “last years ERA” Hughes wasn’t the #2 last year. So comparing him to the Sox #3 was valid, IMO.

  414. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 8:51 pm

    MG – now u are talking about hypotheticals, if andy comes back, if they get another starter……I am talking to and about all these folks claiming the rotation as is gets the job done. Foolish in my view.

  415. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 8:53 pm

    putrid is the new word for the week on Carlo’s new Christmas present….Word Of The Week Calendar.

    Unfortunately, they left out the meaning of the word. That’s what happens when they shop at K-Mart’s.

  416. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 8:53 pm

    “There is no way 2010 comes close to 2008.”

    jerkface-

    the question i have is what was your position on 2008 back then?

    your position that the yankee should go young filling holes for 2011 sounds very much like the position of the sabermetric group that was embarrassed in 2008 and disappeared with their tale between their legs by the time fall came.

    my position is as it was then . the yankees a need veteran inning eating presence in either the 4th or fifth spot. and not two young guys. nova is already one young guy. so the other needs to be a veteran.

    i guess that could be your mystery guy, but i think they also need another veteran capable of innings in the 6th though 8 spot.

  417. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 8:54 pm

    Joe Girardi: Sit down son.

    Phil Hughes: What’s up.

    Joe Girardi: You won’t be pitching any games against the Toronto Blue Jays this season.

    Phil Hughes: Really? Why?

    Joe Girardi: Jerkface

    Phil Hughes: Ahhh. Got it.

  418. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:55 pm

    The maximum amount of times a pitcher can face 1 unbalanced schedule team is 6 times.

  419. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 8:56 pm

    Jerkface – are u serious? Ur banking on wins from burnett and nova and asking me who the sox are going to get wins from if not beckett? Seriously. And the best part is u go on to mention lackey, dice k, and wakefield…….all of which are far more proven and reliable than anyone in our rotation not names sabathia and hughes. I mean seriously? How are they going to get their wins…….while u bank on nova and mitre and aj burnett winning games for us?

  420. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:56 pm

    West Coast proves he cannot read. And then, just in case he thinks we didn’t realize it, keeps on proving it over and over again.

  421. brads77 December 27th, 2010 at 8:57 pm

    Where did Bojo go?

  422. J. Alfred Prufrock December 27th, 2010 at 8:57 pm

    Kerry Wood was very lucky his 6 BB/9 didn’t bite him on the yankees.

    ///not overly relevant.how many of those BBs scored?guy doesn’t give up hits and erases walks with Ks.in fact, you’re arguing for D-Rob and when he’s been successful, he’s gotten it done similarly: walks guys and then Ks guys.

  423. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:57 pm

    And the best part is u go on to mention lackey, dice k, and wakefield all of which are far more proven and reliable than anyone in our rotation not names sabathia and hughes.

    lmao, please go look at their stats from last year. How are they any more proven or reliable? They are as reliable as AJ Burnett next season.

  424. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 8:58 pm

    Hahahaha – GB7, u make me laugh. U really do. Such a petty insignificant man. Pulling out the kmart jokes. Bet u are a rich powerful socialite. U write like that type. Go watch some of your video library and find mechanical flaws in Mitre. Clown.

  425. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:59 pm

    not overly relevant.how many of those BBs scored?guy doesn’t give up hits and erases walks with Ks.in fact, you’re arguing for D-Rob and when he’s been successful, he’s gotten it done similarly: walks guys and then Ks guys.

    Robertson walks 4.5 guys per 9. Not 6. And I like robertson and think he can be successful. He could be the kerry wood and romulo sanchez can be the new robertson.

  426. austinmac December 27th, 2010 at 9:00 pm

    Carlo,

    Great new rotation slogan: We’re better than the Royals.

  427. yankeefeminista December 27th, 2010 at 9:00 pm

    Kerry Wood’s walks were high vs. lefties. Vs. righties he only averaged 2.13BB/9, I believe. Also as per Prufrock, I doubt many of those walks scored.

  428. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 9:00 pm

    I remember 2008 as I was looking forward to Young Master Hughes and Ian Kennedy in the rotation together….Kennedy was so very good when he was called up in September of 2007 and many were upset that he was closed down for the season and wasn’t included to the postseason roster……..Randy was dead set against this and was really the only guy here who said it was not going to go down well and of course he was right as both Hughes and Kennedy pitched with injuries after camp broke….In fact Hughes was hurt before spring training was over and just kept quiet about the rib pain……..Mitre is not the answer and once again Tin Cup is telling us the same thing he did back 3 years ago…….

  429. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 9:00 pm

    Good one Jerkface. Powerful stuff.

  430. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 9:01 pm

    the question i have is what was your position on 2008 back then?

    your position that the yankee should go young filling holes for 2011 sounds very much like the position of the sabermetric group that was embarrassed in 2008 and disappeared with their tale between their legs by the time fall came.

    -

    I was all for Hughes + IPK in the rotation. It killed me that they were pitching injured. I knew something wasn’t right because Hughes didn’t look like the Hughes of 07 or the minors.

  431. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 9:02 pm

    randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 8:53 pm
    “There is no way 2010 comes close to 2008.”

    jerkface-

    the question i have is what was your position on 2008 back then?

    your position that the yankee should go young filling holes for 2011 sounds very much like the position of the sabermetric group that was embarrassed in 2008 and disappeared with their tale between their legs by the time fall came.

    my position is as it was then . the yankees a need veteran inning eating presence in either the 4th or fifth spot. and not two young guys. nova is already one young guy. so the other needs to be a veteran.

    i guess that could be your mystery guy, but i think they also need another veteran capable of innings in the 6th though 8 spot.

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    After Lee and possiblt De La Rosa, there hasn’t been many “innings eaters” available this off season. Most are reclaimations and those like Garcia, Penny, Francis and Capuano that have injury questions surrounding them. Given that, I’d sign two of them at one year with a low base and high incentives to buy some time for the kids. I’d also add one multiple innings guy in the pen, like Rauch.

  432. blake December 27th, 2010 at 9:02 pm

    AJ has always been pretty rotational with his delivery, it’s one of the primary factors for his inconsistency. Anytime you release the ball on a horizontal plane you’re introducing more difficulty in throwing the ball where you want to…everything has to be insync and the timing has to be near perfect. Its part of the reason why his stuff is so nasty but also contributes to his.command issues….he was out of sync for a big chunk of 2010. Hopefully it’ll be better in 2011.

  433. Mike Ri December 27th, 2010 at 9:02 pm

    Carlo .. I agree with your Posts . . Some on here think our Farm will carry us to the promise land. . Two of the best minor leaguer pitchers we have need to stay there to build innings. . And the rest including Phelps . Warren and Noesi are all the same type of pitcher..

    Our pitching sucks !

  434. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 9:02 pm

    Jerkface – u realize burnett was the worst pitcher in baseball last year, right? But sure, in ur world burnett + nova + mitre is significantly stronger than Lackey + Dice K + Wakefield. I’m sure there is a ton of support for that argument in intelligent baseball communities.

  435. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 9:02 pm

    Also as per Prufrock, I doubt many of those walks scored.

    The after the fact hindsight view of the walks doesn’t mean anything. They may not have scored, but what about the future? What about when Kerry Wood’s babip normalizes a bit and he gives up 6.8 h/9 instead of 4.8 h/9? For the price he asked from the yankees, he wasn’t worth it.

  436. austinmac December 27th, 2010 at 9:03 pm

    West Coast,

    That was funny.

  437. Dee December 27th, 2010 at 9:04 pm

    Just read this Tweet:

    Brewers Break Off Talks With Capuano http://bit.ly/ghy60P #mlb

    Is he a possible option? Don’t know much about him. Better or worse than Francis (in terms of our need for a Lefty if Pettitte retires)?

  438. G-C December 27th, 2010 at 9:05 pm

    GB, tough to even call De La Rosa an innings eater when he’s made over 30 starts and pitched over 130 innings once in his career.

  439. West Coast Yankee Fan December 27th, 2010 at 9:05 pm

    austinmac – there is humor in all this. No? lol

  440. MG December 27th, 2010 at 9:06 pm

    Meanwhile, in games that are actually being played on a real playing field as opposed to a sport that doesn’t start for more than 90 days, it’s Rangers 6 Islanders 2 with 10:29 left in the game…

  441. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 9:06 pm

    G-C December 27th, 2010 at 9:05 pm
    GB, tough to even call De La Rosa an innings eater when he’s made over 30 starts and pitched over 130 innings once in his career.

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    That’s why I said “possibly”.

  442. J. Alfred Prufrock December 27th, 2010 at 9:08 pm

    Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:59 pm
    not overly relevant.how many of those BBs scored?guy doesn’t give up hits and erases walks with Ks.in fact, you’re arguing for D-Rob and when he’s been successful, he’s gotten it done similarly: walks guys and then Ks guys.

    Robertson walks 4.5 guys per 9. Not 6. And I like robertson and think he can be successful. He could be the kerry wood and romulo sanchez can be the new robertson.

    ///Dude, I made the comparison, so you don’t need to tell me that D-Rob can be Kerry Wood.the reason I don’t buy your stat in this case is because both guys are anomalies. Wood especially can get away with walking guys all day,so no,I fundamentally disagree that Wood flirts with potential disaster, because it’s clear his stuff is too good for those walks to catch up with him.That’s the point: all walks are not created equal. Your problem is you don’t seem able to evaluate beyond the numbers.i never worried when Wood put guys on,cos I knew they were’nt goin anywhere.

  443. Tar December 27th, 2010 at 9:11 pm

    Jerkface – u realize burnett was the worst pitcher in baseball last year, right?

    Actually Becktt was worse. And for thier careers Burnett = Beckett.

  444. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 9:11 pm

    blake….AJ really became a spin top over the rubber last season….Carlo, did Santa by pass your house the other night ??? Is that the reason for your disposition tonight ???

  445. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 9:12 pm

    In jerkfaces world, the following takes place:

    Burnett becomes good
    Robertson becomes kerry wood
    Yanks rotation loses andy pettitte, replaces him with sergio mitre, and improves year over year
    Kennedy and hughes experiment fails in 2008, but the nova plus other assorted mediocrity works real well in 2011

  446. MG December 27th, 2010 at 9:12 pm

    de la Rosa isn’t an answer for the Yankees, he walks too many guys to survive against the patient hitters in the AL. And Jeff Francis, unless he is much healthier than he was last year, won’t help either-he was out for a month from mid August to mid September and didn’t pitch more than 4 innings in a game after that (and didn’t pitch well at all). Maybe that’s why the Yankees have done nothing, there is just nothing to do until Andy decides on whether he’s coming back and a better alternative comes along.

  447. J. Alfred Prufrock December 27th, 2010 at 9:12 pm

    The after the fact hindsight view of the walks doesn’t mean anything. They may not have scored, but what about the future? What about when Kerry Wood’s babip normalizes a bit and he gives up 6.8 h/9 instead of 4.8 h/9? For the price he asked from the yankees, he wasn’t worth it.

    ///JF this I believe is the failure of your posts.you have nowhere to go when a player bucks the trend.this is a ridiculous premise,advanced here by you only to try and sell that the yanks losing Wood isn’t a big deal.your problem is, ur transparent and anyone who knows Wood knows those walks are benign.even einstein said math wasn’t real, lol.

  448. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 9:13 pm

    MG December 27th, 2010 at 9:06 pm
    Meanwhile, in games that are actually being played on a real playing field as opposed to a sport that doesn’t start for more than 90 days, it’s Rangers 6 Islanders 2 with 10:29 left in the game…

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    Hopefully, Trottier and Potvin have assisted Bossy on both Islander goals. The Isles will come back on hat tricks by Bossy and Trottier

  449. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 9:14 pm

    Tar – beckett was hurt most of the year……burnett performed considerably below replacement level. I can argue beckett not pitching was more positive then burnett pitching.

  450. MG December 27th, 2010 at 9:15 pm

    GB, it’s 7-2 now and the only Trottier playing for the Isles is Morris Trottier, he runs a deli in Baldwin as his day job…

  451. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 9:16 pm

    Pat – classify my disposition? Then I’ll respond re santa.

    If ur merely going to point out the lack of respect I showed GB, then don’t bother. Guys a self proclaimed message board all star…..sorry dude in my book.

  452. G-C December 27th, 2010 at 9:16 pm

    Prufrock,

    If Wood walks guys at the same rate he did with the Yankees last year, it will come back to bite him. That’s not an “if.” That kind of BABIP is absolutely unsustainable.

    I also happen to disagree with you, but that’s more of a subjective matter any way. Part of the reason I didn’t feel the Yankees needed to retain Wood is because I always felt like he was playing with fire out there. D-Rob already significantly pushes the limits of how many guys you can walk while being an effective pitcher. You can’t cross that line and expect to be effective on a consistent basis.

  453. J. Alfred Prufrock December 27th, 2010 at 9:16 pm

    yankeefeminista December 27th, 2010 at 9:00 pm
    Kerry Wood’s walks were high vs. lefties. Vs. righties he only averaged 2.13BB/9, I believe. Also as per Prufrock, I doubt many of those walks scored.

    ///that’s interesting.didn’t realize that.

  454. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2010 at 9:16 pm

    Bucking a trend is known as an outlier. Outlier performances cannot be expected to continue. They may, but it’s more likely than not that they won’t.

  455. Tar December 27th, 2010 at 9:16 pm

    “I can argue beckett not pitching was more positive then burnett pitching”

    LOL, you got me there.

  456. MG December 27th, 2010 at 9:17 pm

    the snow in NY must be unbelievable-it took Sam Rosen 5 hours to get from Philly to MSG and he missed most of the first two periods. I think he had to fly to Philly from his NFL game because the airports are closed as well…

  457. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 9:17 pm

    Here’s the problem all the rosy glasses wearers can’t see…

    Everything they base their positive thoughts on is based on “IF”… and not just one or two…

    IF Phil Hughes can continue to develop… And IF AJ Burnett bounces back… And IF Andy Pettitte doesn’t retire… And IF Ivan Nova can be an average major league starting pitcher… And IF the Yankees can get another guy (Mitre or the like) to be a solid MLB starter… etc, etc, etc…

    By the time the list is done, we’re staring at five, six, seven or more “ifs,” which ain’t good.

    Because IF the large majority of those “ifs” don’t work out they way we’re all forced to hope they do, the Yankees aren’t going to be very good, just like they weren’t very good the last two and a half months of last year.

  458. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 9:19 pm

    MG December 27th, 2010 at 9:15 pm
    GB, it’s 7-2 now and the only Trottier playing for the Isles is Morris Trottier, he runs a deli in Baldwin as his day job…

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    Those late 70s-early ’80s Isles teams were some of the best I’ve ever seen, including Edmonton and Montreal teams. Didn’t get to see a lot of them unless they were playing Detroit and Chicago, but, they were sensational.

  459. yankeefeminista December 27th, 2010 at 9:19 pm

    Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 9:02 pm
    Also as per Prufrock, I doubt many of those walks scored.

    The after the fact hindsight view of the walks doesn’t mean anything. They may not have scored, but what about the future? What about when Kerry Wood’s babip normalizes a bit and he gives up 6.8 h/9 instead of 4.8 h/9? For the price he asked from the yankees, he wasn’t worth it.
    _____________
    Well, his BB/9 would then also normalize, dontcha think? Furthermore, as I pointed out his righty splits for BB’s are excellent.

  460. clownthrowindown December 27th, 2010 at 9:19 pm

    Jerkface,

    Earlier in the thread you insisted that you have to look at a pitcher’s whole season stats…not just specific time periods. Not suprisingly that rule must only be for those who disagree with your nonsense since you feel its appropriate when you do it!

    “Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 8:44 pm
    Post AS: 4.90

    Stamina issues are a likely key factor in the disparity.

    Hughes Post AS break ERA if you remove the blue jays was 3.7, so unless he is only going to pitch against the blue jays he can be counted on to keep the team in games.”

    You are so funny!

  461. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2010 at 9:20 pm

    YankeesNmore

    IF you think that every team is MLB isn’t leading with IFs, you’re either willfully blind or just messing with people.

  462. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2010 at 9:20 pm

    “You are so funny!”

    And you’re are so unable to rebut anything.

  463. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 9:21 pm

    Yankeesnmore – well said. Lotta hoping and praying. Which is fine by me, but when folks get indignant about it and repeatedly say dumb things and attempt to apply logic to them, it gets frustrating.

    If pettitte doesn’t return and they can’t improve on nova/mitre in the 4/5 spots, none of the other ifs matter……unless its “if nova can be good and if mitre wins the cy young”.

  464. J. Alfred Prufrock December 27th, 2010 at 9:25 pm

    D-Rob already significantly pushes the limits of how many guys you can walk while being an effective pitcher. You can’t cross that line and expect to be effective on a consistent basis.

    ///First of all, D-Rob isn’t Wood & can’t get away with as much. Wood has better stuff.You don’t want Wood as your EIG because the walks scare you? I’ll take Wood all day in that role.those guys he puts on are phantoms.

  465. Stoneburner December 27th, 2010 at 9:25 pm

    Nova already has the change – most difficult pitch – next to having a natural fastball – he will be just fine as breaking in as a no. 5 option – actually think he might do better than Hughes in 2010 overall (not wins totals – but overall in quality – b/c of the change) – it is the other option in the rotation – who fills that? To be continued I guess. . . .

  466. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 9:25 pm

    Rich – yeah, a lot of other teams have ifs……but most of them don’t have fans pretending like the ifs will turn into a world series team. Nor do they have fans with those types of expectations.

  467. Mike Ri December 27th, 2010 at 9:26 pm

    YankeesNmore. .Great post ! .

    Rich in NJ. .. We are talking about the Yankees . ., Not Every team in baseball has a 200 million dollar payroll either. What that amount of money . there should be ALOT less IF’s . . NO ???

  468. Mike Ri December 27th, 2010 at 9:26 pm

    With -

  469. yankeefeminista December 27th, 2010 at 9:27 pm

    Carlo,

    Why does Robertson have to become Kerry Wood? ’09 Robertson was pretty darn good. He just needs to be healthy.

  470. Stoneburner December 27th, 2010 at 9:28 pm

    Cannot blame Pettitte if he is hesitant about coming back due to the Clemens’ trial – only he knows – but I hope he told the entire truth when he said he took the hgh on only those few occasions – he made that statement under oath in his deposition – only Andy knows how much he is stressing when it comes to being cross-examined by Clemens’ defense lawyers about his statements in the depo. . . .

  471. yankeefeminista December 27th, 2010 at 9:29 pm

    If we have Pettitte back and Nova pitching backend we will be fine. If we don’t have Pettitte back, we will likely make a move. What is the problem? This debate has been going on for days as if we are the Kevin Brown Yankees and the trading deadline has passed. I just don’t get it.

  472. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 9:29 pm

    He doesn’t need to become Kerry Wood. I never said he does. Frankly though, 2011 robertson shouldn’t be expected to fill the void left by 2010 Wood. And moving robertson to woods EIG role is fine, but the pen shortens unless they get another late inning arm.

  473. JobaTipsHisCap December 27th, 2010 at 9:32 pm

    $200m cannot put up a decent starting rotation, let alone the reliable bp.
    Thanks a lot, Cash!

  474. yankeefeminista December 27th, 2010 at 9:33 pm

    I would guess bullpen roles would remain fluid in the short term unless we get an actual EIG. I wouldn’t pencil anyone in anywhere yet.

  475. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 9:33 pm

    Yankeefem – you say “we’ll just make a move” like its so easy and there is so much help out there. If u believe cashman when he says “andy isn’t holding us up”, then why haven’t they made moves if its as simple to improve as you say by just doing so?

    There aren’t a lot of moves there for us right now.

  476. Stoneburner December 27th, 2010 at 9:35 pm

    There are always moves to be made – prices just remain high – and we know all it takes with Cashman is for the team to ask for that extra Nunez and he will just pull the chord or walk away from the deal. . . .

  477. JCPD December 27th, 2010 at 9:35 pm

    Rich in NJ December 27th, 2010 at 9:20 pm
    YankeesNmore

    IF you think that every team is MLB isn’t leading with IFs, you’re either willfully blind or just messing with people.

    ——————————————————

    There is no such thing as IF Pedroia and Youk come back healthy, if AGon can deal with the scrutiny that is Boston, if Beckett regains his form, if Ellsbury is healthy, if Bucholz, like our own Phil Hughes can repeat their good years…… IF doesn’t exist in the Boston dictionary. Like you said, EVERY team has IFs.

  478. Tar December 27th, 2010 at 9:36 pm

    Everybody here knows the Yankees would be better next year with Lee and Woods.

    “If” that is your debate, I have nothing for you.

    “If” the debate is where do you go from here, Jerk has proposed what could work.

    If you disagree cool, lets hear some names, what would you do?

  479. Stoneburner December 27th, 2010 at 9:37 pm

    Still have a sneaking suspicion that some point b/w now and July 31 – John Danks hits the open market – very telling that he has not signed a deal with the ChiSox to buy out his last two arb years and first two years of FA like some of these other guys like Verlander, Johnson, Hernandez, Wainwright, his teammate Floyd, etc.

  480. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 9:37 pm

    JCPD…..The difference is lower case ifs and upper case Ifs…..

  481. Stoneburner December 27th, 2010 at 9:38 pm

    Conor Mullee looks to be a sleeper prospect next year – converted fielder to pitcher -

  482. yankeefeminista December 27th, 2010 at 9:40 pm

    Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 9:33 pm
    Yankeefem – you say “we’ll just make a move” like its so easy and there is so much help out there. If u believe cashman when he says “andy isn’t holding us up”, then why haven’t they made moves if its as simple to improve as you say by just doing so?

    There aren’t a lot of moves there for us right now.
    ______________
    We have trading chips that we know will produce something decent if we need them to. However, why the hurry? Why make a move if we may not have to? We can wait on Andy and subsequently see how the beginning of the season plays out w/AJ, Nova, etc. Just because we went after Lee and didn’t get him, why the assumption that we have to strike now? Or that that is even a wise strategy?

  483. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 9:43 pm

    This rotation is no different than the one that the 2004 Yankees went into January of the 2004 season with. Two known starters and three hopes. They traded for Brown in mid December of 2003 and Vazquez in January of 2004. The 5th spot was split betweem Hernandez and Contreras and the last prayer was Lieber who hadn’t pitched in a year and a half. They won 101 games that year.

  484. JCPD December 27th, 2010 at 9:46 pm

    Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 9:37 pm
    JCPD…..The difference is lower case ifs and upper case Ifs…..

    —————————————————————
    Pat, that’s fair……. I just don’t believe in calling the season a lost cause because they haven’t made any earth shattering moves….. as Sterling says, you can’t predict baseball.

  485. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 9:46 pm

    Prufrock : everything about kerry wood’s yankee tenure was a complete outlier from his prior performance and not an accurate expectation for next year. He hasn’t had an era under 3 as a reliever in a full season. Yankees didn’t need to pay 12 over 2 years to find out if he turned a corner. I wouldn’t be angry if they had retained wood but not having him isn’t a death blow. Pontificate all you want about his unhittableness but he wasn’t that unhittable ever in the past.

  486. yankeefeminista December 27th, 2010 at 9:47 pm

    Stoneburner December 27th, 2010 at 9:38 pm
    Conor Mullee looks to be a sleeper prospect next year – converted fielder to pitcher -
    _______
    He’s got a whale of an arm.

  487. Bx is Burning December 27th, 2010 at 9:48 pm

    Grumpy up in here tonight.
    Too many achy, snow-shoveling backs in play, perhaps…

  488. YankeesNmore December 27th, 2010 at 9:49 pm

    QUOTING Mike Ri: “YankeesNmore. Great post !”

    Thanks, man.

  489. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 9:49 pm

    I’m not suggesting striking now. I’m also not under the false pretense that once the season starts the rotation will be a strong point for this team or that suddenly a great starter will be presented to us by July 31.

    If Andy retires, there really is no easy fix where Cashman can “just go get a guy”. He will either have to overpay to get the rotation back to 2010 form or he will have to deal with a weaker rotation.

  490. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 9:55 pm

    Stoneburner – when is it acceptable for people to slot mullee into the 2015 rotation behind betances and banuelos? Is next week to early for that train to start?

  491. Stoneburner December 27th, 2010 at 9:55 pm

    Kind of think the 2011 Yanks will be like the 2007 Yanks (ironically the last time Posada was in a contract year – but I digress) – this is pitching wise:

    C.C. is ’07 Andy – but with better stuff
    Hughes is ’07 Wang
    Burnett is ’07 Mussina
    Nova is ’07 Hughes – though without the bad hammy
    Mo is Mo

    The only thing we are missing is the mystery guess who will plays Clemens in ’07 – do I dare say Susan Waldman goes crazy in May and starts screaming in her WWF voice that “Andy Pettitte is in George’s box!!!”

    And I will take Betances coming up in August as the ’07 version of Joba

  492. randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 9:56 pm

    “This rotation is no different than the one that the 2004 Yankees went into January of the 2004 season with”

    gb7-

    after vazquez who was 28, the next 10 guys in innings pitched that year were all over 30.

    …and they won 101 games.

    i still think as of now cashman is leaning towards too many young guys . some veteran acquisitions would make me feel better.

  493. yankeefeminista December 27th, 2010 at 9:56 pm

    Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 9:46 pm
    Prufrock : everything about kerry wood’s yankee tenure was a complete outlier from his prior performance and not an accurate expectation for next year. He hasn’t had an era under 3 as a reliever in a full season. Yankees didn’t need to pay 12 over 2 years to find out if he turned a corner. I wouldn’t be angry if they had retained wood but not having him isn’t a death blow. Pontificate all you want about his unhittableness but he wasn’t that unhittable ever in the past.
    _______
    I would say that Wood’s injury history is the issue here. However, if you are going to quote his reliever ERA which is suspect, than you have to quote his K/9, BB/9, which = k/9 10.5, BB/9 2.55…

    I agree cost was high, and he was a risk, but he still pitched pretty damn well. Might have been a risk worth taking in that he at least truly has an uber arm, not like some of these other relievers with arms with no life in them. That being said, high injury risk, etc… But perhaps one of the few I would have taken, given the stuff I saw last year.

  494. Stoneburner December 27th, 2010 at 9:57 pm

    Oh Carlo – it is never too early – especially if Mullee takes off and is included in a trade for John Danks – who HAS NOT signed a team friendly extension yet – interesting

    but Carlo – while it is never good to overvalue prospects – it is always important – no it is a duty – to know what is coming down on the farm

  495. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 9:58 pm

    randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 9:56 pm
    “This rotation is no different than the one that the 2004 Yankees went into January of the 2004 season with”

    gb7-

    after vazquez who was 28, the next 10 guys in innings pitched that year were all over 30.

    …and they won 101 games.

    i still think as of now cashman is leaning towards too many young guys . some veteran acquisitions would make me feel better.

  496. Stoneburner December 27th, 2010 at 9:58 pm

    June 25, 2011 – over or under when Kerry Wood goes on the DL

  497. Stoneburner December 27th, 2010 at 9:59 pm

    Plus Carlo – Mullee is considered as of now more of a relief project at this point who could – ironically – help out the team much sooner than 2015 – interesting, interesting, interesting

  498. EA December 27th, 2010 at 10:01 pm

    Take out Buchholz’ 2 awful starts against Oakland and his ERA is 1.50 or something crazy. Take away Hughes’ starts agaisnt Baltimore and his ERA is over 5. Heck, if you take out the Yankees, I bet Beckett’s AL career numbers look much more favorable. Just last year, the Yanks were responsible for over a run on his ERA.

    Can’t cherry pick stats like that. The numbers are what they are. Besides, Hughes isin’t a question mark. Everyone except him and CC are, however.

  499. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 10:02 pm

    SB – yes, I know he’s there…..but folks here read a prospects name and within a week the prospect has a nickname, is untouchable, and all we have to do is be patient and these guys will win title after title.

    Danks is the one guy I think is attainable for us who really makes a difference. If andy comes back and danks is dangled in July, cashman needs to be aggressive and get him. Cash has to use the deadline to plan for 2012 as well given the limited free agent crop at seasons end.

  500. Tank December 27th, 2010 at 10:05 pm

    “i still think as of now cashman is leaning towards too many young guys . some veteran acquisitions would make me feel better.”

    Can’t disagree. His strategy has been strange so far, to say the least. Does he really expect to receive favorable results going to ST with this team and hoping/praying that at least 2 kids, plus some BP arms step up and become consistent? That’s why it is always better to break in one kid at a time.

  501. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 10:05 pm

    randy l. December 27th, 2010 at 9:56 pm
    “This rotation is no different than the one that the 2004 Yankees went into January of the 2004 season with”

    gb7-

    after vazquez who was 28, the next 10 guys in innings pitched that year were all over 30.

    …and they won 101 games.

    i still think as of now cashman is leaning towards too many young guys . some veteran acquisitions would make me feel better.

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    That entire pitching staff had age and injury issues. Only 3 of the starters even had enough innings to qualify for the ERA leadership board (162 innings) and Mussina made it by 2 innings. 36 wins from the bullpen and spot starters. NYY will patch the back end within the next 2 weeks and do the same thing. It was an ugly rotation and it wasn’t all on the offense. They had Clark at first and Cairo at 2nd and no bench unless you count Giambi’s termite riddkled body for half a season.

    I’ll still take this team over that one.

  502. yankeefeminista December 27th, 2010 at 10:06 pm

    Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 9:49 pm
    I’m not suggesting striking now. I’m also not under the false pretense that once the season starts the rotation will be a strong point for this team or that suddenly a great starter will be presented to us by July 31.

    If Andy retires, there really is no easy fix where Cashman can “just go get a guy”. He will either have to overpay to get the rotation back to 2010 form or he will have to deal with a weaker rotation.
    ____________
    First of all, that rotation you are dissing if it includes Andy, won a WS for us. I am not a fortune-teller, nor are you. We have no idea what AJ will or won’t bring, but it isn’t my imagination that he won a WS game for us in 2009, so… I don’t know about false pretenses. We will see what happens when the season begins to play out…

    As for “going and getting a guy,” why not? We have prospects galore. I want to keep our “A” prospects, but I am sure that Cash will be as patient as I, and not make a move if he thinks we need to.

    As for Mullee, he was just converted from SS only recently. So, probably have to give him at least a few months before we “prospect nerds” start pencilling him in. ;)

  503. Stoneburner December 27th, 2010 at 10:06 pm

    Agree Carlo – I think prospects become too overvalued – and I do agree with Joel Sherman’s assessment that the Yankees may have become too attached to the farm – it is delicate balance b/w holding on to the right prospects and knowing which ones to deal away.

    I have been following the Danks talks from afar with much interest – for me – it is very telling that Danks has not signed that contract that buys up his 2 years of arb and 2 years of FA like Floyd did – and others – he may be one that wants to go the FA route – in any event – he is only a year older than Hughes – he is lefty – can actually pitch against Boston (at least he did last year) -

  504. yankeefeminista December 27th, 2010 at 10:09 pm

    Cash *won’t* be

  505. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 10:10 pm

    Yankeefem – the rotation I am dissing does not include Andy. If Andy comes back, the entire face of the rotation changes. Then AJ Burnett doesn’t have to be meaningfully better than he was and Ivan Nova doesn’t have to be better than an ordinary first time #5 starter. The one I diss has burnett, mitre, and nova making up 60% of it.

  506. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 10:11 pm

    cARLO….Aren’t prices lower now than come July’s deadline ???? I agree with your premise that whatever happens to bloster the rotation should have a longer eye towards the future…..Bottom line the club cannot go into the season with Sergio Mitre as an option for the rotation…..Long relief is the most I’d count on him for……..

  507. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 10:13 pm

    Yankeefem – just as u recall AJ winning a WS game in 2009, I recall Hughes laying two eggs in Texas in 2010, but he is being counted on to be a solid #2 starter. Point is, we can cherry pick things good and bad at any time.

  508. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 10:15 pm

    Fem: yes wood strikes dudes out but his good walk rate is only vs righties and if wood is here he isn’t a platoon pitcher. Its 4 overall.

  509. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 10:17 pm

    Pat – yes, I believe prices will be higher at the deadline. That’s kind of my issue. This patient approach seems to come with the assumption that come July, everything comes to fruition nice and easy for us.

    I simply don’t see that. Ideally, Andy returns AND Cashman makes a move for a free agent, be it a Garcia or Francis and allows Nova to compete for the 5th spot….as opposed to just granting it to him. Loser is that long man role you reference for Mitre.

  510. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 10:17 pm

    GB…Termite riddled body…..That’s a good one, things did get bad for him at that time…..Medical reports looked less than favorable…..Oh had Tony Clark’s shot down the line not bounced into the seats….Now we’re talking Ifs !!!!

  511. G-C December 27th, 2010 at 10:17 pm

    ‘he one I diss has burnett, mitre, and nova making up 60% of it.”

    ______________________________________________

    The point is, I think people are delusional if they think Cashman will actually let that happen.

    Everyone here needs to pop a xanax or valium and realize that its just December 27th. There’s plenty of time to make moves, particularly trades. If its January 20th and things still stand as is, then that’s an indication that Cashman is willing to stand pat and THEN I can see people taking issue with it.

    I personally don’t think that rotation would be the most wholly horrifying thing in the world. Nor do I think, however, that Cashman will go into the season that way.

  512. yankeefeminista December 27th, 2010 at 10:18 pm

    On the contrary, I don’t think Cash is particularly attached to the farm. That ship sailed when he rushed up IPK, Joba, Hughes and they “failed” him. Cash then went in the other direction. He is willing to trade prospects as proven by his trading Vizcaino and his willingness to trade Montero. To Cashman, they are “assets.” If you don’t know that you haven’t been paying attention.

    As for overvaluing the prospects, easily said by those who DO NOT DIFFERENTIATE AT ALL BETWEEN prospects. With all due respect, the rhetoric reaks of ignorance. There is no polite way to say it.

  513. yankeefeminista December 27th, 2010 at 10:22 pm

    G-C, Agree. No way we go with those 3-5 SP’s. Has to be emotion talking; no one can honestly believe the NY Yankees would ever go that route.

  514. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 10:22 pm

    Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 10:17 pm
    GB…Termite riddled body…..That’s a good one, things did get bad for him at that time…..Medical reports looked less than favorable…..Oh had Tony Clark’s shot down the line not bounced into the seats….Now we’re talking Ifs !!!!

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    Yeah, Clark’s high bouncer really hurt. It was really the last chance that NYY had to win that series. The entire offense pretty much disappeared after that. The offense and pitchers that couldn’t hold runners killed them.

  515. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 10:23 pm

    Yankeefem – your last statement re the smell of the rhetoric is something that makes me cringe and laugh everytime come on this board.

    The morphing of generation trey into the B’s alone nauseates me. It sure would be great if we got one major league starter and one major league reliever from those 3…..but most here see two all stars. I used to mock red sox fans mercilessly for their hyping of manny delcarmen and craig hansen…..now I see this board doing the same things.

  516. pat December 27th, 2010 at 10:24 pm

    Peter Gammons ( and Winston Churchill) speaking to Yankee fans via Twitter?

    “An optimist sees an opportunity in every calamity; a pessimist sees a calamity in every opportunity.Winston Churchill”
    about 4 hours ago via Su.pr
    Retweeted by pgammo

  517. BoJo December 27th, 2010 at 10:26 pm

    Brads77–

    I’m here…what did you want?

  518. yankeefeminista December 27th, 2010 at 10:26 pm

    Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 10:13 pm
    Yankeefem – just as u recall AJ winning a WS game in 2009, I recall Hughes laying two eggs in Texas in 2010, but he is being counted on to be a solid #2 starter. Point is, we can cherry pick things good and bad at any time.
    _______
    First of all, Hughes was fatigued since sometime like July. Second, AJ may be back in the #2 slot by then or if Andy is back, he can pitch out of the 2, depending on field and matchups.

    & FTR, David Price wasn’t particularly good vs. Texas. Think maybe we can get him off the Rays and risk him in the #2 slot? ;)

  519. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 10:27 pm

    G-C/Fem – I don’t see a lot of people saying they believe that will be the rotation……but I do see people saying the rotation is good as it stands right now. I can’t believe that and I don’t think those who say it do either.

  520. clownthrowindown December 27th, 2010 at 10:27 pm

    GB7,

    I agree. You never know how all the chips will fall. In 2004 things fell right.

    But its always best to position your team so that there’s more surety. All the “glass half full” people are really “glass full and overflowing” blind fans. Its silly to assume that everything will fall into place for NY and everything go wrong for Boston. Hughes will get better but Buccholtz will regress… Arod will be healthy but Pedroia is a question mark…AJ will bounce back but Beckett will get worse. The reality is that it will be a mixture.

    The problem with Cashman is that he has built a roster (so far, at least)that will depend on the chips falling heavily in NY’s favor if they are going to be contenders.

  521. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 10:31 pm

    Fem – no, I don’t think we will get price because tampa will screw us like we get screwed in every trade.

    They will trade him to cincy for votto, bailey, and leake while demanding noesi, warren, and melky mesa from us……and we will have to rightly backdown because every team is out to get us. ;)

  522. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 10:32 pm

    GB…One of the factors that gets lost in that dreadful October of 2004 was when The Yanks lost John Olerod……Tony Clark did hit that bell ringer down the line but so many things went wrong after Game 3……I still remember that bomb A-Rod hit off of the Volvo sign in left center……That ball would have ended up in Kenmore Square had it missed that sign……

  523. Mr. Baseballs December 27th, 2010 at 10:33 pm

    Newbie here. Great discussions!!! I really have enjoyed reading a real Yankees Blog.

    Now, how about the Yanks sign a rag of an arm and at least improve the depth of the rotation. Lee was the only arm worth paying for this year. He’s gone so let’s improve the depth of the rotation and the bullpen and not try to get to tricky. The worst thing Cashman could do is make a Jerod Wright, type signing just for the sake of doing something. If he must do something how about continue to develop the youth and sign some depth.

  524. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 10:35 pm

    Pat M – don’t have the numbers in front of me, but other than that hideous bad luck ground rule double onto the right field corner, Clark was abysmal in that series. I want to say 1 for 15 or worse bad…..with a dozen k’s or so. I may be “misremembering”, but I recall him being soriano 2003 bad.

  525. yankeefeminista December 27th, 2010 at 10:36 pm

    That prospective hit excepted, Tony Clark was woefully unprepared by Torre for the playoffs, having been given no AB’s for a ridiculous stretch to end the regular season. He had something like 10 K’s in 24 AB’s in the playoffs. Watching him come to the plate was excrutiating. Alas, don’t even get me started about Torre’s managing in that ALCS. Game 7 was the only playoff game I have ever left early.

  526. yankeefeminista December 27th, 2010 at 10:36 pm

    *excruciating*

  527. yankeefeminista December 27th, 2010 at 10:39 pm

    Ugh. No Olerud. (Sigh)…

  528. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 10:39 pm

    I did not leave that game early. I was too nauseated to ride the subway with other people. I literally waited until 90% of the crowd was gone before even walking to the train.

  529. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 10:41 pm

    Carlo….Tony was terrible, in fact he stunk …..Losing Olerod just was the first big nail n the coffin….Then the dead tired bullpen was exposed due to the crappy rotation they had that season…….All coming to a ugly conclusion when Kevin Brown when asked by Torre if he was good to go for Game 7….That hack lied and Torre was forced to bring in a very cold Javy Vasquez……Possibly the most flawed ballclub that ever won over 100 games in my mind…..

  530. yankeefeminista December 27th, 2010 at 10:44 pm

    Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 10:39 pm
    I did not leave that game early. I was too nauseated to ride the subway with other people. I literally waited until 90% of the crowd was gone before even walking to the train.
    ____
    I left when Enter Sandman started playing. I couldn’t bear to see Mo in such a compromised situation nor see “them” celebrate on our field.

  531. yankeefeminista December 27th, 2010 at 10:46 pm

    Bringing in Javy in that situation was completely ridiculous. He wasn’t a reliever and Damon had great numbers against him. I knew the game was lost when it was announced Kevin Brown would pitch. However, I take solace in knowing that our SP will never be that ill-prepared again.

    And don’t even get me going about Torre not running on Wakefield…

  532. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 10:47 pm

    Pat M – agreed about how flawed that team was to think they were within inches of a world series multiple times is kind of amazing. It really was unbelievable given what happened in Games 1 and 2 with moose and lieber beating pedro and schilling……then the massacre in Game 3…….their rotation in complete disarray……man what a shame. Tommy g wasn’t great in that series but again, the pen being tapped out by then was understood given the quangormo formula that torre road to death for the majority of the year.

  533. G-C December 27th, 2010 at 10:50 pm

    “Game 7 was the only playoff game I have ever left early.”

    _______________________________________________

    My dad and I were gone by the fourth inning.

    I knew it was over after Jeter gestured to Arod “Let’s Go” down 6-1 and Arod subsequently tapped out weakly to Lowe.

    He’s come a long way since then!

  534. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 10:51 pm

    Lmao comparing delcarmen and hansen to the b’s. Two relief prospects to bonafide starters. Carlo try a different angle.

  535. Carlo December 27th, 2010 at 10:55 pm

    Jerkface – how about we leave it at you’ll call me when the B’s materialize and do something at the big league level. Until then, I’ll error in the side of being conservative in my expectations with respect to prospects……seems like the fact that most never pan out is lost on you.

    By the way, I am taking my dad to the april 15th game, is Humberto Sanchez starting that game?

  536. G-C December 27th, 2010 at 10:57 pm

    Torre starting Brown in that game may have been the most ill-advised move of his managerial career (save the bugs incident).

    Given the way he pitched against Boston in game three, and the way he pitched against them in his first start back after breaking his hand at the end of September (I believe he gave up 7 runs in 2 innings) it was clearly a terrible match-up for a HEALTHY Brown. That would be ignoring the fact that it was evident to me from row W of the Upper Tier that Brown’s back was in absolute agony. He was moving stiff and gingerly even walking out from the bullpen to the dugout. I also have this distinct memory of him doing the majority of his warmups in the outfield, something I had never seen before. It was clear that he wasn’t capable of getting on the mound for that game and for some reason, Torre trusted him to take the ball instead of making a decision for him.

    Sure, there weren’t a whole lot of great options. My personal choice would have been a by committee game, with Loaiza starting. His performance in game five, some may remember, was outstanding, and he was the best choice at that point in time. Even Vazquez with a fresh game or El Duque on two days rest for 2 or 3 innings would have given us a better chance. But Joe was evidently afraid to make that choice because it was far easier to say that you lost game seven throwing out a guy with 200 + career wins and a HOF resume to his credit. IMO, it seemed like Joe stopped taking the calculated risks that made him so successful early in the dynasty run, and that was the undoing of himself and the dynasty he helped to create.

  537. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 11:02 pm

    Enough with the “not running on Wakefield”. Who was supposed to be stealing/running. Cairo got on base and moved up to 2nd on an error on his hit. sheffield got on, was erased by Matsui and moved up on a passed ball, intentional walk and passed ball. When were they supposed to run? Those were the only base runners and that was his last game (#5).

  538. brads77 December 27th, 2010 at 11:03 pm

    Bojo, good take and post on Joba I like him too. Hope he really steps it up this year and becomes a top of the rotation guy.

  539. ron December 27th, 2010 at 11:09 pm

    All the pitchers we are said to have,cc,hughes,burnett,nova,mitre,phelps,noesi,brackman,igawa & whoever else won’t matter much unless our 1-4 can keep pace with the rest of the league & be better come playoff time.

    Teams 1-3 are what wins it all,sometimes the number 4 pitcher plays a role so cc,hughes,burnett,nova will have too pitch well or it won’t matter.
    Also almost every young pitcher that enters the majors struggles so it is unlikely that any one of our young pitchers dislodge our 1-3 or 1-4 pitchers.

    All of our young pitchers outside our 1-4 rotation are not going too pitch enough too make any difference & if they do that means we have injuries & they probably will struggle.

    So basically if cc pitches well but hughes,burnett,nova struggle all the other pitchers won’t matter because they would not only have too dislodge our number 2-4 pitchers,they would also have too be pitching well wich is not likely because young pitchers usually struggle.

  540. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 11:13 pm

    GB…..I always thought even then that they were a very flawed ballclub that was built on a good lineup1-6 and a very good but shallow bullpen……Once that series went back to NYC I had a bad feeling…..Had they put away Boston in 5 games they could have rested and then could have taken out St.Louis in maybe 5-6 games……Torre is the fall guy in many fans eyes, but in reality it’s in some ways remarkable that they went as far as they did considering how that club was a house of cards waiting to collapse……

  541. BoJo December 27th, 2010 at 11:22 pm

    Brads77–

    I didn’t reply earlier because it was just repetitive.

    If you are the same guy from the Daily News blog, your posts there convinced me that Joba could be something. I like your posts and glad to see you here. You certainly know your baseball and make good logical points..so I’ll look forward to it.

    I hope you won’t get into arguments here with Redfish though. I think you’ll find the blog admin will be quick to boot you out.

  542. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2010 at 11:24 pm

    Pat, that ’04 team started the off season with one starter. Picked up Brown paycheck in December trade and Vazquez in the middle of January. They got a wing and a prayer season out of Lieber (team leader in wins) and split starts in the 5th spot from Hernandez and Contrera. No pitchers over 198 innings and a beat to death bullpen, Cairo and Clark with some help from Lofton. You’re right…that team had nothing that would make you believe they could win the East, let alone 101 games. The offense was good, but after the starting 8, not much of anything. In some ways, it reminded me of the ’62 team with injuries and a rotation with 3 starters, though that was the 4 man rotations. I guess the closest may have been the ’96 team.

  543. Mell December 27th, 2010 at 11:24 pm

    “Had they put away Boston in 5 games they could have rested and then could have taken out St.Louis in maybe 5-6 games”

    If only the right field “wall” in Fenway wasn’t only three feet high……

  544. Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 11:43 pm

    Jerkface – how about we leave it at you’ll call me when the B’s materialize and do something at the big league level. Until then, I’ll error in the side of being conservative in my expectations with respect to prospects……seems like the fact that most never pan out is lost on you.

    By the way, I am taking my dad to the april 15th game, is Humberto Sanchez starting that game?

    Your inability to appropriately valuate prospects is really telling. Not all prospects are created equally. What are you even talking about Humberto Sanchez? The guy who was traded for a 40 year old gary sheffield? What about him? How about we talk about every major leaguer in the game today, who at one time was a prospect.

    These players have to come from somewhere, and the good organizations going forward will learn which ones to deal and which ones to retain. I think the Yankees are actually pretty good at that. We have rarely, if at all, been bit by a trade. And Cashman himself has been very willing to part with guys.

    If there are prospect huggers then there are definitely prospect haters, the other end of the spectrum which you seem to operate on where all prospects are just faceless guys with equal value to be bartered about in trades with no consequence.

    A measured approach is needed. You need to know what you’re giving up, what you’re gaining. The yankees are not the angels, who hold onto their guys for so long to their own detriment.

  545. Against All Odds December 27th, 2010 at 11:54 pm

    # yankeefeminista December 27th, 2010 at 9:33 pm

    I would guess bullpen roles would remain fluid in the short term unless we get an actual EIG. I wouldn’t pencil anyone in anywhere yet.

    ——————————————-

    Joba has to be that guy because if he’s not than why is he still on the team.

  546. Pat M. December 27th, 2010 at 11:58 pm

    Jerkface has stopped drinking Doreen’s Brandy and eggnog….

  547. tyanksfan36 December 28th, 2010 at 12:00 am

    Baseball Seasons 2004. Yuck I vaguely remember that season, luckily I don’t remember it as well as most of you. I just remember seeing the newspaper after they had won and being mad about it. Though not as mad as when the Marlins beat us in the World Series and my mom went out and bought a Marlins world series champions shirt because “you have to support the Florida team”

  548. Jerkface December 28th, 2010 at 12:21 am

    Just saw the post about Capuano. Cashman should go after him. He returned successfully from 2nd tommy john. Maybe he’d take a 1 year deal to show his value? The brewers aren’t bringing him back. Maybe he can be had for multiple years but cheaply, giving him some trade value and reduce risk.

    He doesnt throw hard, which is a little worrisome, but his fastball can get up the low 90s on occasion. He has a good change up with 10 mph separation. He is a lefty.

    Wouldn’t be a bad buy low.

  549. joeman December 28th, 2010 at 6:31 am

    I see you all have this mess figured out…nice work

  550. ron December 28th, 2010 at 6:48 am

    There is no possible way too figure it out right now because we can’t possibly know the end result,yet people try.
    The problem with our pitching is the uncertainty.

    If we had josh johnson & pettitte was coming back we would be talking about how good our pitching is but we just don’t know what we are going too get out of every pitcher after cc.

  551. Doreen December 28th, 2010 at 7:49 am

    Good morning, morning people.

    Gonna try and navigate some roads today. :) Got cabin fever.

    I never thought I’d say this, but I’m “Yankee’d Out.” At least for now. :?

  552. upstate kate December 28th, 2010 at 7:52 am

    good morning Doreen
    yeah me too, we need some news!

  553. MaineYankee December 28th, 2010 at 7:58 am

    Good morning Ladies

    I’ve had enough of this wind. It blew and drifted all night.

    The joys of winter. :lol:

    It seems that with all the discussion they could have solved the pitching rotation.

    Of course without knowing what’s available and what Cashman is thinking it is just an effort in futility.

  554. Doreen December 28th, 2010 at 8:00 am

    Hi upstate kate.

    I don’t anticipate anything until after the New Year, though.

  555. MTU December 28th, 2010 at 8:05 am

    Maine-

    Good morning.

    Maybe Cashman is like a Cabbie and gets paid for his waiting time.

    :)

  556. Doreen December 28th, 2010 at 8:06 am

    Maine Yankee -

    That and not being actually employed by the Yankees. :)

    Some good ideas, for sure, though. Just have to sift through.

  557. MaineYankee December 28th, 2010 at 8:09 am

    As far as any moves being made soon, I believe it had been mentioned in the past that the teams basicly shut down till after the New Year.

  558. MTU December 28th, 2010 at 8:15 am

    I think someone has cited a report that AP will return if, and only if,
    the Yankees can’t swing a deal for another starter.

    I hope that is true because that will be our “safety net”.

    In the meantime Cashman can wait out the Market a bit more so that he gets a clearer picture of what might be available, and to see
    if prices drop.

    He might be able to do this knowing that his fallback is Andy.

    It would be a great comfort to know if that was true.

  559. MaineYankee December 28th, 2010 at 8:17 am

    My feeling on the team is that they aren’t complete but in no way does it mean this is what they start the season with.

    It wouldn’t take many moves to make this team complete and a viable contender.

  560. MTU December 28th, 2010 at 8:22 am

    Maine-

    I basically agree with you but the Pitching does need another reliable middle to back end innings eater, and possibly another BP arm.

    I don’t think they’ll do it but IMO it would be a mistake to try to go into the season with 2 rookies in the rotation, and the current BP.

    They’ve already been down that road in the past and it failed.

    I don’t think they’ll make the same mistake twice.

    Personally, I hope AP decides to return. Most elegant solution.

    That way we get to use Nova out of the 5 slot and keep our prospects for a more opportune time to trade.

    ;)

  561. blake December 28th, 2010 at 8:23 am

    MTU,

    If I were Pettite and I had feelings that I wanted to come back and pitch then I would want the Yankees to add another starter anyway. If Im coming back then I want the best chance possible to win a title.

  562. blake December 28th, 2010 at 8:27 am

    There were leaks that suggested that Pettite would be more likely to come back if the Yankees had signed Lee. Is it possible that all this waiting is in part Andy’ s way of saying….hey get me some help in the rotation and Ill come back to round it out? Who knows but Im sure that if he’s coming back then he wants to feel good about the teams chances at a WS.

  563. MTU December 28th, 2010 at 8:28 am

    Blake-

    We’re all trying to figure this out in a vacuum.

    We don’t really have much in the way of solid info.

    I was merely citing a reference to something someone had said on on here about AP’s possible POV.

    Who the heck knows if that was accurate.

    If that report is true. IF. Then AP is gone if we get another starter.

    If not he returns so we are not left empty-handed.

    If AP returns I do not think another starter would be needed.

    Nova, etc. should be able to handle # 5.

    We should, in any case, further strengthen our Pen IMO.

  564. blake December 28th, 2010 at 8:32 am

    MTU,

    agree with all of that.

  565. MTU December 28th, 2010 at 8:33 am

    Blake-

    How’s your son feeling. Better ?

  566. blake December 28th, 2010 at 8:35 am

    MTU,

    yea he’s on the mend I believe. Acting more like himself (wild) so that’s a good.sign :)

  567. MTU December 28th, 2010 at 8:35 am

    Blake-

    Now if we all only knew that was true everyone could exhale and relax.

    We’d have it covered one way or another.

    :)

  568. MTU December 28th, 2010 at 8:40 am

    Haven’t heard from SJ in a while.

    I guess he’s been busy.

    I think he’s been travelling a lot.

    Sure would love to hear his take on the current state of things ?

    And the same for CB. Would like to hear is POV on where we stand where he thinks we’re goin’.

  569. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 8:45 am

    # Jerkface December 27th, 2010 at 11:43 pm

    Jerkface – how about we leave it at you’ll call me when the B’s materialize and do something at the big league level. Until then, I’ll error in the side of being conservative in my expectations with respect to prospects……seems like the fact that most never pan out is lost on you.

    By the way, I am taking my dad to the april 15th game, is Humberto Sanchez starting that game?

    Your inability to appropriately valuate prospects is really telling. Not all prospects are created equally. What are you even talking about Humberto Sanchez? The guy who was traded for a 40 year old gary sheffield? What about him? How about we talk about every major leaguer in the game today, who at one time was a prospect.

    ————

    Jerkface – how about we talk about every prospect who never amounted to anything? You talk like you have staunch certainty that guys like Banuelos and Betances will be horses of future title winning rotations……..that to me is naive. You throw guys like Phelps and Noesi in the 2011 rotation and think the team will be fine……that is also naive in my opinion. No one is suggesting to trade all these guys the first chance we get, but to sit here and pretend like these guys are going to be key cogs in future rotations doesnt make sense.

    Over the last 5 years, the yankees have had many pitching prospects who garnered a lot of attention or were considered to be potential future big league guys:

    Hughes – the one that truly panned out
    Kennedy – may have been a solid back of the rotation guy in the AL East
    Chamberlain – jury is still out
    Marquez – nope
    Beam – nope
    Garcia – nope
    Melancon – nope
    JB Cox – nope
    Horne – nope

    And here is how Sanchez is relevant (this is from 2009):

    6. Manny Banuelos

    LHP, NYY (#203 overall)

    With a nickname that sounds like something out of Radical Feminist Manifesto, Manny Banuelos is a young and tiny lefthander signed out of Mexico who’s already being heralded as a shining success story for the Yankee’s…

    More Scouting Book Info on Manny Banuelos >

    SB #203 | BA n/a | BP unranked | ML unranked | SN unranked | ES #0 | SI n/a
    7. Humberto Sanchez

    RHP, NYY (#208 overall)

    Newly a Yankee, look for Sanchez to work in the bullpen, at least initially. Long-term, the big man might be better as an innings-eating starter, as his fastball control and work ethic make him a viable 200 inning guy in…

    More Scouting Book Info on Humberto Sanchez >

    SB #208 | BA n/a | BP unranked | ML unranked | SN unranked | ES unranked | SI n/a
    8. Dellin Betances

    RHP, NYY (#282 overall)

    With a WHIP under 1.00 and a scary-good strikeout rate, Betances has been one of the many weapons being sharpened in the Yankee labs. His lightning stuff has been sidelined a bit too often by minor injuries, sadly, and…

    More Scouting Book Info on Dellin Betances >

    SB #282 | BA n/a | BP unranked | ML unranked | SN unranked | ES unranked | SI n/a

  570. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 8:50 am

    Is Capuano really what this team needs? I get that he could be better than the current bottom of the rotation…….but to me the biggest about Nova/Mitre/Burnett is that they could very well exhaust the pen. Does a guy who has thrown a total of 216 innings in the last four seasons combined alleviate that fear? Is it not telling that Milwaukee has no use for him, choosing instead to go with a 29 year old who gave them 167 innings of 5.00 ERA ball last year?

  571. MaineYankee December 28th, 2010 at 8:51 am

    Time for a new post so we can change the subject.

  572. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 8:52 am

    # MaineYankee December 28th, 2010 at 8:51 am

    Time for a new post so we can change the subject.
    ——————————

    A move to improve the team may also change the subject……..so i say, time for a new post that has something to do with adding a new face into the mix next year ;)

  573. blake December 28th, 2010 at 8:54 am

    Carlo,
    The main point is that prospects can’t pan out if you trade them all away. Realistically if 1 of Betances, Baneulos, Brackman pan out as Hughes did then its worth keeping them. Im not a “prospect hugger” by any stretch but I do believe in trying to keep the ones that have impact upside unless a special deal comes along. Betances and Banuelos have frontline upside and Banuelos is the only significant Lefty I can think of in the system.

  574. MaineYankee December 28th, 2010 at 8:56 am

    Carlo

    I doubt it.

    It would then be beaten to death on the merits of the move.

    The team isn’t complete now and usually isn’t even after ST.

    A MLB team is forever changing for one reason or another.

  575. MaineYankee December 28th, 2010 at 9:00 am

    Carlo

    If this was a blog for some of the lower level teams I could understand the angst.

    The Yankees do spend money and make moves to make this a championship team.

    I don’t see them changing from that.

    Just because no moves have been made doesn’t mean none are going to be made.

  576. MTU December 28th, 2010 at 9:01 am

    Blake-

    From waht SJ and others have said the Yankees are very good at self-scouting.

    This means they know which ones to hold and which to fold.

    Hope that’s true.

    They won’t be able to keep them all nor should they.

    I hope you’re right and at least one of the B’s has some real sting.

    ;)

  577. MaineYankee December 28th, 2010 at 9:03 am

    MTU

    I hope you’re right and at least one of the B’s has some real sting

    ———————————————————————————–

    If that happens MLB will need alot of calamine lotion. :lol:

  578. blake December 28th, 2010 at 9:06 am

    MTU,

    I think history would suggest that’s true as its hard to think of too many players they’ve traded away that they have lived to regret. They have kept the right ones over the last 15 years or so (Jeter, Pettite, Posada, Cano, Rivera, Hughes, etc….).

  579. MTU December 28th, 2010 at 9:06 am

    Maine-

    Aren’t they “Killer” B’s ?

    :)

  580. MTU December 28th, 2010 at 9:08 am

    Blake-

    Maybe so but they’ve gotten lucky on a few non-trades.

    ;)

  581. blake December 28th, 2010 at 9:12 am

    MTU,

    Some luck maybe but they were still reluctant to deal a lot of the right guys and they would up keeping them……hopefully a couple years from now we’ll be saying…..boy were lucky Jack Z has idea what he’s doing ;)

  582. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 9:16 am

    # blake December 28th, 2010 at 8:54 am

    Carlo,
    The main point is that prospects can’t pan out if you trade them all away. Realistically if 1 of Betances, Baneulos, Brackman pan out as Hughes did then its worth keeping them. Im not a “prospect hugger” by any stretch but I do believe in trying to keep the ones that have impact upside unless a special deal comes along. Betances and Banuelos have frontline upside and Banuelos is the only significant Lefty I can think of in the system.

    ———————

    I get that……and agree with you on all points. What i am not willing to do is sit here and blindly pretend like i have a high level of conviction that these guys all pan out and help this team in the years to come……like you said, one of 3 may be an impact guy……so I trust the Yankees to protect that 1. I wont go crazy if betances is traded for a starter who can help the team in 2011…..though I believe many on here would.

  583. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 9:17 am

    # blake December 28th, 2010 at 9:12 am

    MTU,

    Some luck maybe but they were still reluctant to deal a lot of the right guys and they would up keeping them……hopefully a couple years from now we’ll be saying…..boy were lucky Jack Z has idea what he’s doing ;)

    ——————–

    Based on Lee going to Philly, I kinda feel that way right now.

  584. Rich in NJ December 28th, 2010 at 9:17 am

    Nothing is more tedious than reading the all prospects are fungible meme.

    Anyone who keeps invoking the name of Humberto Sanchez is really demonstrating that they are completely fact-averse.

    When the Yankees traded for him, they knew he needed TJ surgery. When the surgeons opened up his elbow, the tear was far worse than almost any they had seen.

    To bring up his name to demonstrate that prospects that are currently performing at a high level are similar to Humberto Sanchez is really an admission that you know less than nothing about prospects in particular, and probably baseball in general.

  585. MTU December 28th, 2010 at 9:18 am

    Blake-

    I know you mean’t to say that Jack Z had “no idea” what he was passing on.

    That was extremely lucky because Lee might have only turned into a rental.

    Imagine losing Montero for a rental ?

    Yikes !

    We almsot traded Cano as well.

    Better to be lucky than good.

    :)

  586. MTU December 28th, 2010 at 9:20 am

    Blake-

    Now I have both Alzheimer’s as well as Dyslexia.

    Sorry. :(

  587. BIG AL December 28th, 2010 at 9:21 am

    This post is like an old record, with the needle stuck, and everything keeps repeating itself.

    But, what more could one expect from Brian Heyman.

    Me, I vote it’s all MTU’s fault.

  588. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 9:21 am

    # MaineYankee December 28th, 2010 at 9:00 am

    The Yankees do spend money and make moves to make this a championship team.

    I don’t see them changing from that.

    —————————-

    Completely disregarding the lack of moves to date……I am not as confident saying what you are saying as I was say two years ago. Again, this has nothing to do with the current holding pattern we are in simply because I believe there are other things going on right now that have kept us so quiet. That said, I am not convinced the new Hank/Hal regime is as dedicated to spending to put a quality product on the field as their father was. I think Hank and hal are willing to test the equilibrium between putting rears in seats and investing dollars in players. Again, there aren’t major draws to be had right now…..and the willingness to push the limits with Lee dispute this, but there certainly seems to be a push to lower payroll…..a much bigger push than I believe George would be making.

  589. MTU December 28th, 2010 at 9:22 am

    Al-

    Hot potato.

    I say it’s JCPD’s fault.

    :)

  590. MTU December 28th, 2010 at 9:23 am

    I think Mr. Heyman is recovering from an Xmas hangover.

    :)

  591. BIG AL December 28th, 2010 at 9:25 am

    MTU -

    You could be right, he’s like a stealth attack plane, now you see him, then he’s out of site. He keeps eating those hot wings, trying to survive in Syracuse.

  592. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 9:25 am

    # Rich in NJ December 28th, 2010 at 9:17 am

    Nothing is more tedious than reading the all prospects are fungible meme.

    Anyone who keeps invoking the name of Humberto Sanchez is really demonstrating that they are completely fact-averse.

    When the Yankees traded for him, they knew he needed TJ surgery. When the surgeons opened up his elbow, the tear was far worse than almost any they had seen.

    To bring up his name to demonstrate that prospects that are currently performing at a high level are similar to Humberto Sanchez is really an admission that you know less than nothing about prospects in particular, and probably baseball in general.

    —————————————-

    Ok – so Humberto Sanchez, Alan Horne, Jeffrey Marquez, etc, etc, etc, are all irrelevant because they didn’t perform at a high level in 2010 and as such, Betances and Banuelos are cant miss guys.

    I would say that continuing to carry lofty expectations for prospects who just cracked AA and to act as if they are bound for greatness and failure is not an option speaks to a limited knowledge of baseball. Being cautiously skeptical is prudent when it comes to prospects…..that’s why even the best ones get traded.

  593. MTU December 28th, 2010 at 9:26 am

    Al-

    Yeah. Got to keep that core temp up.

    :)

  594. BIG AL December 28th, 2010 at 9:27 am

    Brian Heyman is trying to recover from a life hangover, nothing to add, until something changes?

    We would have been better off having some folks from the blog write a story or 2 each day, this guy lacks the ability to think.

  595. BIG AL December 28th, 2010 at 9:29 am

    Here’s my vote for the first guest writer;

    GB7 talks about the Yankees off the past, and how they compare to the modern Yankees.

    Pat M. talks about Yankees trade rumors.

    Just a start!

  596. BIG AL December 28th, 2010 at 9:30 am

    Of > Off

  597. Joe from Long Island December 28th, 2010 at 9:30 am

    Good morning, all –

    Don’t have much to contribute this AM. Happy to be done with snow clearing around the house. Though, the trains are still affected. Hope Doreen has a safe driving experience today.

    FWIW, the longer the Andy Pettitte saga goes on, the more I’m leaning towards the feeling that he’s already made up his mind, and he’s not coming back. Probably a combination of family reasons, and concern over the Clemens’ trial coming mid-season. And that the only reason this is not public is that Cash is trying to make a deal and is trying to keep the price down. Pat M.’s post the other day about Chad Billingsley is intriguing.

  598. MTU December 28th, 2010 at 9:31 am

    Al-

    And CB gives us the various win projections based on different
    Pitching options.

    ;)

  599. raymagnetic December 28th, 2010 at 9:31 am

    “That said, I am not convinced the new Hank/Hal regime is as dedicated to spending to put a quality product on the field as their father was.”

    Yeah, they hate spending so much that they allowed Cashman to give CC the highest contract ever for a pitcher and Tex the highest contract ever for a 1B.

    :roll:

  600. BIG AL December 28th, 2010 at 9:32 am

    We could also throw in;

    Chip talks of trades only a die hard fan would believe could happen.

  601. BIG AL December 28th, 2010 at 9:33 am

    Back in a bit – MTU, please continue to carry the ball, unlike our Giants that can’t seem to carry their own ………..

  602. blake December 28th, 2010 at 9:33 am

    Its always MTUs fault……

    I think its too early to judge Hal and Hanks regime….their goal seems to be building a strong farm system.and primarily “big game hunting” in the FA market….only spending on the elite. The farm system is close but is still about a year or two away from really being ready to contribute as planned.

  603. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 9:34 am

    Joe from Long Island December 28th, 2010 at 9:30 am

    FWIW, the longer the Andy Pettitte saga goes on, the more I’m leaning towards the feeling that he’s already made up his mind, and he’s not coming back.
    ——–
    Joe – not that I disagree, but what about the length of the decision process is it that leads you to believe he is not coming back? Is it a courtesy to the yankees thing where you believe he is giving them a chance to deal from a desperate but not totally desperate position……which they would land in should he announce he is officially done?

    I guess the other side of it is he is holding off simply because he knows the longer he waits, the more information he will have as it relates to the construction of the team, his involvement in the Clemens stuff, and he may make a few extra bucks by carrying out the process.

  604. Rich in NJ December 28th, 2010 at 9:37 am

    Ok – so Humberto Sanchez, Alan Horne, Jeffrey Marquez, etc, etc, etc, are all irrelevant because they didn’t perform at a high level in 2010 and as such, Betances and Banuelos are cant miss guys.
    __

    Relevant is a relative term, but each of those three individual had either serious injury histories: Sanchez, Horne from the time the Yankees acquired them, or not a particularly high ceiling, like Marquez.

    There is nothing that “can’t miss” in life, in the sense that we can’t predict the future.

    For example, who knew that Jeter would put up a 90 OPS+ this season? Who knows if it’s an outlier or a trend.

    Who knew that A-Rod would hurt his hip? Who knows if his 2010 performance is an off season or the beginning of a decline.

    The flaw in your posts is that you are holding prospects to a illusory standard while not veterans to the same standard.

    Now, you can say, but most veterans have a history of performance.

    And that’s true, to an extent. But veterans are also very expensive, so they crowd out other players with their big contracts, even on a team like the deep pocketed Yankees. OTOH, young, cost controlled players enable you to sign more quality veterans.

    Also, all players have life cycles. So veterans are more susceptible to an age related decline than a young, cost controlled player.

    “I would say that continuing to carry lofty expectations for prospects who just cracked AA and to act as if they are bound for greatness and failure is not an option speaks to a limited knowledge of baseball. Being cautiously skeptical is prudent when it comes to prospects…..that’s why even the best ones get traded.”

    Lofty is a loaded word.

    All mL players have projections based on performance.

    Will all of them meet that projection? Of course not.

    But as I pointed out above, the projections for veterans can fall short as well.

    In event, citing a chronically injured prospect really does nothing to make your point.

  605. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 9:38 am

    # raymagnetic December 28th, 2010 at 9:31 am

    “That said, I am not convinced the new Hank/Hal regime is as dedicated to spending to put a quality product on the field as their father was.”

    Yeah, they hate spending so much that they allowed Cashman to give CC the highest contract ever for a pitcher and Tex the highest contract ever for a 1B.

    :roll:
    —————————-

    Ahhh – got it, and George would not have made those moves…..only Hank and Hal would have…….I see now, we cut off the comparison to George and just go with the front part of the sentence. I guess moving into a new Stadium and having a ton of money come off the books which allowed them to actually CUT PAYROLL by 4% from 2008 to 2009 despite signing Tex and CC was also irrelevant.

    Then again, your point wasnt to discuss facts or state an opinion…..as evidenced by your disregard for half of what I said, and any facts for that matter, it was simply to be argumentative. Got it.

  606. MTU December 28th, 2010 at 9:40 am

    Al/Blake-

    Somebody has to take the heat.

    Looks like my goose is cooked.

    :)

  607. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 9:43 am

    # Rich in NJ December 28th, 2010 at 9:37 am

    Ok – so Humberto Sanchez, Alan Horne, Jeffrey Marquez, etc, etc, etc, are all irrelevant because they didn’t perform at a high level in 2010 and as such, Betances and Banuelos are cant miss guys.
    __

    In event, citing a chronically injured prospect really does nothing to make your point.

    ——-

    Appreciate your opinion, and you make valid points, but i believe you are painting me with a broad brush that simply isn’t accurate. My point is not that banuelos and betances will be failures. My point is not that we should deal them. my point is not that our farm system cupboard is bare. My point is simply that folks on this board need to effectively tone down the expectations for guys like these. Every team has Banuelos and Betances type guys in their systems……..yet for some reason Yankee fans decide to get way over hyped about them way too early and set unreasonable expectations. It takes me back to pre 2008 when “Generation Trey” was slated to win 40 games between them before the season even started. Then, when the hiccups started, the Yankees were considered failures because they had no plan and couldn’t develop these guys.

    My entire point is, take it easy on the prospect love…..sure, its good to have high end guys with high end potential in the system…..but its important to keep in perspective that every team has guys like that…..and many of them never amount to anything.

  608. raymagnetic December 28th, 2010 at 9:46 am

    “Ahhh – got it, and George would not have made those moves…..only Hank and Hal would have…….I see now, we cut off the comparison to George and just go with the front part of the sentence. I guess moving into a new Stadium and having a ton of money come off the books which allowed them to actually CUT PAYROLL by 4% from 2008 to 2009 despite signing Tex and CC was also irrelevant.

    Then again, your point wasnt to discuss facts or state an opinion…..as evidenced by your disregard for half of what I said, and any facts for that matter, it was simply to be argumentative. Got it.”

    No Carlo, you stated that you were not convinced the Hal/Hank regime are not as dedicated as their father to putting a quality product on the field.

    If Hank and Hal made moves that their father would have made then doesn’t that make them just as dedicated? I’m confused.

    Spending money just cause you have it to spend is stupid by the way. Were there any players worthy of spending on this offseason besides Cliff Lee?

    Prove to me that they passed on a player over money and then you’ll have a point. Until then you have none.

    And before you start, remember George was in charge of the Yankees when they passed on Beltran over money…

    But hey, believe what you want to believe.

  609. disco stu December 28th, 2010 at 9:51 am

    Carlo – no offense, but how can you question Hal/Hank not wanting to spend big bucks to put a quality team on the field when they just made the highest bid for Cliff Lee? If it is a question of money, then I don’t see how any Yankee fan would not feel rest assured that the franchise will always pay top dollar to put the best team possible on the field. The recent FA contracts of CC, AJ, and Tex should convince anyone that the Yankees will always be in it to win it.

    This off-season (at least so far) is the perfect storm of things seemingly not going Yankees way: Boston needed to get back “in the game” and paid big bucks for AGon and Crawford; Lee chose lifestyle over the highest money offered to him; the complete lack of quality SP in the FA class this year; no impact trade available (at least not right now); Andy possibly retiring which further impacts our SP depth.

    So, we take it on the chin and move on … not a single game has been played in ’11 season and the Yanks still have a pretty good roster full of players. If/when a deal presents itself (like last year’s Cliff Lee trade that the Mariners reneged on), the Yankees will make their move.

  610. randy l. December 28th, 2010 at 9:52 am

    “Time for a new post so we can change the subject.”

    maine yankee-

    better get used to talking about not enough pitching because it’s almost for sure going to be a problem this year.

    this really is shaping up as an unsolvable problem because the probability is so high that the yankees are going to have only three good starters at most at any one time.

    the reality is that sabathia,hughes, and burnett will probably not make all of their starts and this is juts a probability thing. it’s very hard to keep pitchers healthy because the slightest injury can sideline them.

    the yankees starting rotation is thin and is likely going to stay that way the whole year. they still could win a hundred. who knows. maybe the offense will jump to 900 runs. that’s not unreachable.

    maybe the bullpen will get strong. and then maybe other teams have problems too. injuries and slumps and aging is not just a yankee phenomenon.

    my position right now is that it’s beyond ridiculous to expect the minor league system to rescue the yankees starting pitching this year. phelps may help a little.( i’m already counting nova to be the fifth guy so he’s not a minor leaguer any more).

    we saw last night that the yankees won 101 games when the top 10 starters in innings were all above 30 except for vazquez who was 28.

    this team needs some veteran arms right now either from free agency or trades.they don’t need a star but they do need pitchers who can eat innings.

    like i said maine yankee.
    it’s gonna be a long summer.

  611. DaSaint007 December 28th, 2010 at 9:52 am

    Morning all. Long post I see. Brian, Brian, Brian.

    Anyway, I hope all had a marvelous Christmas with family and friends. Pettitte reportedly is in Hawaii on vacation, so I’m not sure about those in the media who stated he’s off his pre-season workout regimen. Kinda hard to work out if you’re on vacation with the family, which leads me to thinking that he’s not coming back at all if he’s not prepared for ST. But who knows.

    At this point, a pickup of Francis or Capuano wouldn’t hurt in terms of adding another lefty to the rotation. Should they falter, or should Nova and someone else actually light up ST, you could always move them to the pen as a third lefty/spot starter.

  612. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 9:57 am

    “No Carlo, you stated that you were not convinced the Hal/Hank regime are not as dedicated as their father to putting a quality product on the field.

    If Hank and Hal made moves that their father would have made then doesn’t that make them just as dedicated? I’m confused.

    Spending money just cause you have it to spend is stupid by the way. Were there any players worthy of spending on this offseason besides Cliff Lee?

    Prove to me that they passed on a player over money and then you’ll have a point. Until then you have none.

    And before you start, remember George was in charge of the Yankees when they passed on Beltran over money…

    But hey, believe what you want to believe.”

    ————————

    Ray – did you fail to read the majority of my post that you happened to cherry pick one sentence out of?

    “I think Hank and Hal are willing to test the equilibrium between putting rears in seats and investing dollars in players. Again, there aren’t major guys to be had right now…..and the willingness to push the limits with Lee dispute this, but there certainly seems to be a push to lower payroll…..a much bigger push than I believe George would be making.”

    How can I prove they passed on a player over money when I already said there isnt anyone of note to be had since they missed on lee? Are we going to sit here and pretend like management has not overtly said since 2008 that their goal is to lower payroll? Are we going to pretend like last years bench was indicative of a team looking to save a few bucks here and there? I dont care what they ultimately do with payroll, because in my view it doesnt matter……they either pay the right players or they pay the wrong players…..one results in championships, the other in failure. That said, I am not convinced that Hank and Hal are willing to go the extra mile like George was…….if you believe differently, then so be it, but citing CC and Tex signings in a year where payroll came down and Andy got nickel and dimed into an incentive contract is not going to sway my opinion.

  613. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 10:01 am

    disco stu December 28th, 2010 at 9:51 am

    Carlo – no offense, but how can you question Hal/Hank not wanting to spend big bucks to put a quality team on the field when they just made the highest bid for Cliff Lee? If it is a question of money, then I don’t see how any Yankee fan would not feel rest assured that the franchise will always pay top dollar to put the best team possible on the field. The recent FA contracts of CC, AJ, and Tex should convince anyone that the Yankees will always be in it to win it.

    ——————–

    Stu, go back and read the full post of what i said…..dont take the part ray snipped and pretend like that is my entire premise. I specifically said their willingness to go for lee contradicts my view…..my point is, I believe they intend to be more focused on the bottom line….making sure they do what they have to to keep the revenue machine rolling……..Lee would have gone a long way to keeping that machine rolling into October for years to come. Spending smart is the key. I dont care if they cut payroll by 30% in the next 3 years….wont be easy given the plethora of long big contracts though, as long as they do the things they need to do to put a title contending team on the field every year.

  614. Rich in NJ December 28th, 2010 at 10:01 am

    “My point is simply that folks on this board need to effectively tone down the expectations for guys like these. Every team has Banuelos and Betances type guys in their systems……..yet for some reason Yankee fans decide to get way over hyped about them way too early and set unreasonable expectation”

    What every team doesn’t have is 3 pitching prospects with the ceiling of the Killer Bs, and catching talent like Montero, Sancez, and Romine.

    I can’t speak to any particular post that you think needs toning down.

    What means far more to me are the high evaluations of respected talent evaluators.

    Again, this team has an aging core. It may need reinforcements over the next few years while some of that aging core are still taking up a lot of the available budget space.

    So the Yankees need high ceiling young talent more than they did 10 years ago, and because of the job Cashman has done, they have that talent.

    As a result, I think it’s reasonable to be excited about that, albeit with some appropriate caveats.

    My point is that the story of Humberto Sanchez is not such a caveat.

  615. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 10:06 am

    # Rich in NJ December 28th, 2010 at 10:01 am

    “My point is simply that folks on this board need to effectively tone down the expectations for guys like these. Every team has Banuelos and Betances type guys in their systems……..yet for some reason Yankee fans decide to get way over hyped about them way too early and set unreasonable expectation”

    What every team doesn’t have is 3 pitching prospects with the ceiling of the Killer Bs, and catching talent like Montero, Sancez, and Romine.

    I can’t speak to any particular post that you think needs toning down.

    What means far more to me are the high evaluations of respected talent evaluators.

    Again, this team has an aging core. It may need reinforcements over the next few years while some of that aging core are still taking up a lot of the available budget space.

    So the Yankees need high ceiling young talent more than they did 10 years ago, and because of the job Cashman has done, they have that talent.

    As a result, I think it’s reasonable to be excited about that, albeit with some appropriate caveats.

    My point is that the story of Humberto Sanchez is not such a caveat.
    ————————————

    This is fair……but not indicative of the sentiments of most on this board. I for one am excited about the future potential of a host of our guys…….that being said, I dont have a 2015 rotation of CC, Hughes, banuelos, betances, etc stapled to my desk like it appears many do.

  616. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 10:13 am

    Also – Humberto Sanchez is one of many……not the only example. There is no need to make it as though Humberto sanchez was the only reason provided for why its ok to be skeptical of “the B’s”.

    Marquez
    Beam
    Garcia
    Melancon
    JB Cox
    Horne

    And a year from now, we may be adding Chamberlain to this list.

  617. tyanksfan36 December 28th, 2010 at 10:21 am

    Besides Swisher, who do we have to cover first if something happens to Teixeira? Maybe Posada? We have Nunez or Pena who can cover 3rd, short and maybe 2nd. That’s why I don’t think they will include Laird in a deal because he can play 1st as well as 3rd and the outfield. I know we weren’t talking about him I was just thinking about it.

  618. DaSaint007 December 28th, 2010 at 10:23 am

    Ok….

    If I were Cashman, I’d add Francis to the rotation, and Jon Rauch to the pen. Then in ST I’d see if the pen needs any additional tinkering. Same with the rotation.

    Trade with Houston for Keppinger as the utility guy

    CC
    Hughes
    AJ
    Francis
    Nova

    Mariano
    Rauch
    Robertson
    Joba
    Logan
    Feliciano
    Mitre

    Gardner
    Jeter
    Tex
    Arod
    Cano
    Posada
    Swisher
    Granderson
    Martin

    Bench: Keppinger, Nunez, Golson, Montero

  619. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 10:27 am

    DaSaint007 December 28th, 2010 at 10:23 am

    Ok….

    If I were Cashman, I’d add Francis to the rotation, and Jon Rauch to the pen. Then in ST I’d see if the pen needs any additional tinkering. Same with the rotation.

    ————-

    Do you add Francis if Pettitte returns?

  620. austinmac December 28th, 2010 at 10:27 am

    Idea for a new post by Heyman: Cashman Seen Hurrying to Get His Newspaper: Is he Rushing to Conclude a Trade for an Ace in Return for Low Level Prospects?

    For the record, patience has never been one of my virtues. I am reduced to getting excited when one of my fellow bloggers posts something.

  621. Gary December 28th, 2010 at 10:30 am

    Back in NY for the Holidays, pretty blustry here this morning in upstate NY. Read that the Giants are supposed to fly back home this morning, hope they had alot to think about over the past two days.

    The time of they year when nothing happens. I read a few of the posts and generally I agree that expectations should be lower right now.

    Da Saint I was hoping that Martin was better than a number nine hitter. I think Gardner is the number nine hitter

  622. Chip December 28th, 2010 at 10:32 am

    Hope if you’re on the East Coast you’re digging out or have given up and are sitting home by the fire.

  623. SAS December 28th, 2010 at 10:32 am

    Good morning everyone,

    It seems everyone is part of an essay contest this morning. There is so little to write about, I guess, one post in almost 24 hrs, I guess we are all trying to put a new twist on what we don’t know. Maybe today, now that people can navigate from their homes, we will get an inkling of something new to discuss.

  624. DaSaint007 December 28th, 2010 at 10:33 am

    Carlo – I add Francis now, regardless of what Pettitte does. If Pettitte returns, I can either trade Francis later, move him to the #5 slot, or move him to the pen as spot starter/long reliever/3rd lefty.

    Gary – Martin has to prove to me that he can hit in the AL. Gardner has proven he can leadoff. If either of them proves differently, lineup can change, as it often does.

  625. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 10:34 am

    Gardner
    Jeter
    Tex
    Arod
    Cano
    Posada
    Swisher
    Granderson
    Martin
    —————-

    What i like when I look at this lineup, and i assume saint put this in his preferred order, is that it has a lot of flexibility. An argument can be made that there are many iterations that all have merit to them, including 3 potential leadoff hitters.

  626. Chip December 28th, 2010 at 10:34 am

    Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 10:27 am
    DaSaint007 December 28th, 2010 at 10:23 am

    Ok….

    If I were Cashman, I’d add Francis to the rotation, and Jon Rauch to the pen. Then in ST I’d see if the pen needs any additional tinkering. Same with the rotation.

    ————-

    Do you add Francis if Pettitte returns?

    ———————–

    Not to speak for DaSaint – but I add Francis now because I’m not waiting on Andy.

    If Andy returns, great – Francis can fight it out with Nova, Noesi and Phelps – if Andy doesn’t return Francis can hold down the 4 spot until one of the younger pitchers is banging down the door at AAA.

  627. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 10:36 am

    DaSaint007 December 28th, 2010 at 10:33 am

    Carlo – I add Francis now, regardless of what Pettitte does. If Pettitte returns, I can either trade Francis later, move him to the #5 slot, or move him to the pen as spot starter/long reliever/3rd lefty.

    ——————————

    Right – thats exactly how I see it…..I believe you go get the Francis type, whether it be him, Garcia, Millwood, or Capuano now, and if Andy comes back its gravy and allows Nova to slide into the 6 spot……then we have actual depth in the rotation. I think depth is huge given the following:

    Andy’s age
    AJ’s struggles
    The fact that of the potential targets, almost all have injury histories
    CC’s work load
    Nova’s relative inexperience

  628. Gary December 28th, 2010 at 10:36 am

    Austinmac, I don’t think Brian is scurrying to do much of anything right now. The price right now for anything decent has to be in the stratosphere right now. Other teams know the situation the Yanks are in and they aren’t inclined to cut them any slack. Sure there are conversations going on, but I doubt anything is real serious right now. I always thought that the Yanks had the upper hand and leverage in negotiations, but this year I don’t think they do. Getting more used to the notion that we are going with the guys we got and the outcome will be it is what it is.

  629. Mell December 28th, 2010 at 10:38 am

    “I’d add Francis to the rotation”

    Francis would scare me in the AL East. Always been a very hittable guy. Doesn’t miss many bats. Doesn’t go deep into games. Seems like he belongs in the NL West.

  630. Chip December 28th, 2010 at 10:40 am

    Mell December 28th, 2010 at 10:38 am
    “I’d add Francis to the rotation”

    Francis would scare me in the AL East. Always been a very hittable guy. Doesn’t miss many bats. Doesn’t go deep into games. Seems like he belongs in the NL West.

    ———————-

    I understand your logic – I personally prefer his upside to that of a Freddy Garcia who right now would be a close second on my choice list.

  631. DaSaint007 December 28th, 2010 at 10:40 am

    I’m more inclined to add a lefty – Francis or Capuano, than a righty, because of the uncertainties with Andy. If Andy returns, then an additional lefty in the rotation or pen doesn’t hurt in an lefty hitting AL East (boston).

  632. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 10:41 am

    # Mell December 28th, 2010 at 10:38 am

    “I’d add Francis to the rotation”

    Francis would scare me in the AL East. Always been a very hittable guy. Doesn’t miss many bats. Doesn’t go deep into games. Seems like he belongs in the NL West.

    ———————–

    Everyone who is available is going to be scary for one reason or another……..i think the question we now need to be answering is whether the potential adds are more or less scary then a potential Nova/Mitre back end of the rotation.

  633. MaineYankee December 28th, 2010 at 10:42 am

    randy

    As you well know the summer is never long here in Maine. :lol:

    I’m more inclined to take a more optimistic approach than you.

    You’ve followed this team long enough to know how the team looks on paper and how it plays are two different things.

    I don’t deny that they need to add some pieces but I think Cashman isn’t done yet.

    He has listened to you and is trying to get “true Yankees” without just throwing money around. :lol:

    So now that he is trying you need to give him a list of the players you approve of.

  634. blake December 28th, 2010 at 10:42 am

    Yea…Id pass on Francis.

    I like:
    Gardner
    Jeter
    Cano
    Arod
    Teixera
    Swisher
    Posada
    Granderson
    Martin.

  635. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 10:43 am

    # DaSaint007 December 28th, 2010 at 10:40 am

    I’m more inclined to add a lefty – Francis or Capuano, than a righty, because of the uncertainties with Andy. If Andy returns, then an additional lefty in the rotation or pen doesn’t hurt in an lefty hitting AL East (boston).
    ———————————–

    If it was a high quality lefty i would say i agree…..but right now, i would prefer the best possible pitcher regardless of dexterity. He may well be lefty, all the better, but Francis and Capuano facing the red sox lefty dominant lineup doesnt instill much if any more confidence then Garcia doing so in my view.

  636. ron December 28th, 2010 at 10:44 am

    Does anybody think we should trade cano in a package for an ace?

    Cano,montero & maybe 1 or 2 more for another number 1 starter.
    We had a dynasty in the 90′s built around pitching & the giants just won the ws with mostly pitching,nl pitching that shut down an al tough lineup.

    Why not build a nasty starting rotation & pen?
    We can replace cano with a decent 2b,not nearly as good as cano but we wait til an opportunity comes along for a 2b & jump on it.

    Imagine a rotation of

    cc
    king felix
    hughes
    pettitte
    burnett

    With possibly nova & 1,2 or all of the killer b’s still in our system?

    Would it take more than cano,montero,nova for him & is that too much?

    I cano goes with nova,banuelos would we be able too keep montero??

    What would it take in addition too cano too land king felix or a similar guaranteed ace??

  637. DaSaint007 December 28th, 2010 at 10:46 am

    Thanks Chip, we’re actually on the same page for once. Yikes!
    Since Andy is questionable, another veteran lefty in the rotation is important, and right now both Francis and Capuano cost nothing but some money, and probably not a lot.

    I’d also consider trading for Edwin Jackson or Mark Buehrle, but Kenny Williams is probably asking for Cash’s right you know what for either of them.

    Nova can either fight for a rotation spot, depending on what Andy does, or fight for a bullpen spot. I like the possibility of a Francis/Capuano possibly in the pen as a spot starter/long reliever. And it probably costs less than signing Brian Fuentes for the pen alone.

  638. Chip December 28th, 2010 at 10:48 am

    My lineup:

    Jeter
    Martin
    Tex
    Alex
    Cano
    Swisher
    Posada
    Granderson
    Gardner

    Let me be clear – this is not the lineup I would prefer, but the one I feel is most likely.

    Last year when Gardner hit at the top of the lineup we saw him become much more tentative on the bases – he was afraid of being thrown out with Tex or Alex or Robbie at the plate.

    As for Jeter – the reason why he was originally moved to the lead off spot was because he was hitting into too many double plays as the number 2 hitter – I don’t see that problem going away this year.

    Martin is a veteran who knows how to hit situationally, he’s got some speed and so I think he’ll slot into the #2 spot allowing Girardi to move Swisher down to protect Cano.

    The only drawback is at the bottom where you’ll have the two lefties back to back.

  639. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 10:48 am

    Ron – I cant get comfortable with that. We are robbing peter to pay paul. Cano is the one guy who we can reasonably say 5 years from now will still be a horse with the bat. Montero may be that type of guy as well. If a package centered around Montero almost got Cliff lee, then a package centered around montero and some better prospects that werent in the lee deal should land felix. Cano + Montero is overkill.

  640. Gary December 28th, 2010 at 10:48 am

    We have our problems with SP but so does Boston. Lackey (14-11, 4.40) and Dice K (9-6, 4.96) have to be the guys they are focused on get turned around like we are focused on our guys also. They appear to pretty set with Leister and Buckholtz and really have the two guys I mentioned + Beckett as their big question marks.

  641. MaineYankee December 28th, 2010 at 10:48 am

    Without Cano last year the Yankees wouldn’t have even snifffed the playoffs.

  642. YsGuy December 28th, 2010 at 10:49 am

    i see cano as the next core, i want him in the lineup every day, i cant move him even for king felix, who is great.

  643. blake December 28th, 2010 at 10:51 am

    Im not sure there is a player in baseball that id trade Cano for. The offense he provides at that position is extremely valuable.

  644. DaSaint007 December 28th, 2010 at 10:51 am

    Chip,

    There is NO way that Martin joins this team and slots into the #2 hole as opposed to Swisher or Jeter.

    None.

  645. Gary December 28th, 2010 at 10:52 am

    Cano is the one guy they can’t afford to move. Joba is the one guy they can afford to move

  646. DaSaint007 December 28th, 2010 at 10:52 am

    And Ron, Cano isn’t getting traded. He’s not A. Soriano.

  647. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 10:54 am

    # Gary December 28th, 2010 at 10:48 am

    We have our problems with SP but so does Boston. Lackey (14-11, 4.40) and Dice K (9-6, 4.96) have to be the guys they are focused on get turned around like we are focused on our guys also. They appear to pretty set with Leister and Buckholtz and really have the two guys I mentioned + Beckett as their big question marks.
    ———————————–

    Gary – so does every team…..its a question of whose problems are bigger…..and I dont think it can be logically reasoned that Bostons problems are as big as ours as it relates to the starting staff. As it stands right now, the only 2 guys in our rotation that made 20+ starts and are inked for 2011 who outperformed Lackey and Dice K are Hughes and CC……..and they are our 1 and 2 starters…….not our 4/5 starters….or 3/5 starters if you want to call beckett the 4th starter.

  648. DaSaint007 December 28th, 2010 at 10:54 am

    Chip – as a courtesy to who he is and an opportunity at redemption, Jeter will get his chance at the #2. If he continues to ground into DPs, he’ll slip down the lineup, but I doubt he’s the leadoff hitter, not after what Gardner has shown.

  649. randy l. December 28th, 2010 at 10:54 am

    “Let’s be clear about something – Joba is one of the 5 most talented pitchers in baseball. He has the best fastball in baseball and the best slider.”

    “No player they can replace him with will ever approach doing what joba is doing now because there are very, very few humans on the planet who have Joba’s talent.”

    http://yankees.lhblogs.com/200.....-news-250/

    the above quotes were by CB back in early 2008. there’s no better poster on the blog and this shows how hard it is to project young guys based on potential.

    pitching staffs are a snapshot in time. when you get a guy who keeps showing up year after year then you have an exceptional pitcher. most are only with the team for a short time because they do not reach their potential or they get injured like wang.

    the best way to develop a pitching staff is to stay very much in the present. when a guy lasts a long time like pettitte or rivera it’s the exception to the rule.

    i like looking back because it helps look forward. getting excited about young pitchers needs to be tempered by the fact most don’t make it even when they look can’t miss prospects.

    for any given year, make sure you have proven veterans.
    this year is no different.

  650. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 10:58 am

    randy l. December 28th, 2010 at 10:54 am

    i like looking back because it helps look forward. getting excited about young pitchers needs to be tempered by the fact most don’t make it even when they look can’t miss prospects.

    ———————————

    Any chance you would be willing to move in with Jerkface to try and help ween him off his “all the B’s are going to be stars” syndrome? Maybe a phone call to Rich in NJ would be helpful as well.

  651. joeman December 28th, 2010 at 10:58 am

    # randy l. December 28th, 2010 at 10:54 am

    “Let’s be clear about something – Joba is one of the 5 most talented pitchers in baseball. He has the best fastball in baseball and the best slider.”

    “No player they can replace him with will ever approach doing what joba is doing now because there are very, very few humans on the planet who have Joba’s talent.”

    http://yankees.lhblogs.com/200…..-news-250/

    the above quotes were by CB back in early 2008. there’s no better poster on the blog and this shows how hard it is to project young guys based on potential.

    pitching staffs are a snapshot in time. when you get a guy who keeps showing up year after year then you have an exceptional pitcher. most are only with the team for a short time because they do not reach their potential or they get injured like wang.

    the best way to develop a pitching staff is to stay very much in the present. when a guy lasts a long time like pettitte or rivera it’s the exception to the rule.

    i like looking back because it helps look forward. getting excited about young pitchers needs to be tempered by the fact most don’t make it even when they look can’t miss prospects.

    for any given year, make sure you have proven veterans.
    this year is no different.
    ——————————————————–
    the ruined Joba by moving him along to fast

  652. Chip December 28th, 2010 at 11:04 am

    DaSaint007 December 28th, 2010 at 10:54 am
    Chip – as a courtesy to who he is and an opportunity at redemption, Jeter will get his chance at the #2. If he continues to ground into DPs, he’ll slip down the lineup, but I doubt he’s the leadoff hitter, not after what Gardner has shown.

    ———————-

    you may be right – Girardi has a few months to tinker.

  653. randy l. December 28th, 2010 at 11:10 am

    “Any chance you would be willing to move in with Jerkface to try and help ween him off his “all the B’s are going to be stars” syndrome?”

    carlo-

    are you kidding me? jerkface and i would have a hard time standing next to each other in a grocery store check out line .

    he’d be saying my red tomatoes were over ripe and i’d be saying he wouldn’t be making salad any time soon with those green tomatoes.

  654. YsGuy December 28th, 2010 at 11:10 am

    sick of the ‘poor joba, the yankees ruined him’ stuff. Joba has been put on the mound in every possible situation and has not excelled in any. Sure its tough to go back and forth, but there he’s been, time after time pitching away the lead he’s been given.
    Get some guys out in critical situations and then tell me your tales of woe.
    phil got put in the bp and got guys out.
    there’s still time, probably and we all want him to be great.
    but no more ‘poor joba’ for me.

  655. SAS December 28th, 2010 at 11:12 am

    I agree with those of you who think we need a veteran pitcher in the line up who can give us innings and win games. I am not talking about another ace, but if Cashman trades for King Felix, I would not be opposed to moving some prospects.

    Under no circumstances that I am aware would I ever consider let Cano go. He is part of the future of the Yankees and could well be our best player overall in the next years.

    A New Year’s present of Andy or another quality pitcher would make 2011 look very promising and would be appreciated by the fans.

  656. Carlo December 28th, 2010 at 11:16 am

    # randy l. December 28th, 2010 at 11:10 am

    “Any chance you would be willing to move in with Jerkface to try and help ween him off his “all the B’s are going to be stars” syndrome?”

    carlo-

    are you kidding me? jerkface and i would have a hard time standing next to each other in a grocery store check out line .

    he’d be saying my red tomatoes were over ripe and i’d be saying he wouldn’t be making salad any time soon with those green tomatoes.

    ——————
    the guy is beyond help……i gave it my best, clearly you are unable to assist here. ;)


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