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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Pettitte, Teixeira and this and that

Posted by: Brian Heyman - Posted in Misc on Dec 29, 2010 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

The Yankees are still hoping Andy Pettitte comes back even though they think he’s leaning toward retiring. If Cliff Lee had signed with them, they wouldn’t have had to worry so much. But team president Randy Levine spun the positive side of not spending all that money when he spoke to reporters at Tuesday’s Pinstripe Bowl promotional event, stressing the room in the payroll to spend. He said that there’s still time to improve the team and endorsed Brian Cashman’s patient approach.

The Yankees are among those teams being speculated as interested in starter Jeff Francis as well as reliever Brian Fuentes, although they already have two lefties in the bullpen with Boone Logan and Pedro Feliciano.

Besides saying he thinks Pettitte is indeed leaning toward retirement, Mark Teixeira told the media at that bowl game event that his hamstring is fine again following the tear suffered during the ALCS.

The Jays apparently have agreed on a one-year deal with 37-year-old Octavio Dotel, and his agent indicated he will get the chance to close. Dotel had an uninspiring 4.08 ERA and 22 saves with three teams last season.

Bobby Jenks is joining the setup crew at Fenway. He sounds less than thrilled with his old team, the White Sox.

The field at Yankee Stadium won’t be in the best shape after the second college football game in a month, with Syracuse playing Kansas State Thursday, but an AP report Tuesday stated that the plan is to resod.

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743 Responses to “Pettitte, Teixeira and this and that”

  1. YankeesNmore December 29th, 2010 at 11:17 am

    No Brian Cashman is getting a “vote of confidence” from Randy Levine.

    I LOVE it! That sorry sack-of-$#!t loser can’t get fired soon enough.

    I look forward to our next general manager. Hopefully he’ll be somebody who doesn’t spend the entire winter in hibernation.

  2. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 11:18 am

    Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 11:14 am
    Mike Ri-

    My point is that – again barring Cashman pulling off a miracle deal which is my preference – the pitchers you and your like-mined fellows want aren’t going to make the Yanks better than the high-minors kids.

    In fact, it could make the Yanks worse, because there is no guarantee a vet will pitch well, or even OK, and he’ll take up IPs that should be going to discover which of the minor league arms is a keeper.

    JMO of course.

    —————————–

    If Ivan Nova, or Hector Noesi, or David Phelps, Adam Warren – whomever – are ready to go at this level let them beat out a veteran to do it.

    If they can’t show enough in spring training to beat a Freddy Garcia for a roster spot then they’re obviously not ready for the majors.

  3. mick December 29th, 2010 at 11:18 am

    more of the same…

  4. hardwired7 December 29th, 2010 at 11:20 am

    I would think the “atta baby” philosophy would preclude any further big money additions.

  5. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 11:20 am

    “If they can’t show enough in spring training to beat a Freddy Garcia for a roster spot then they’re obviously not ready for the majors.”

    Freddy Garcia isn’t coming to the Yanks to compete for a job. If he signs with the Yanks, he’ll be given one.

    I don’t want that opportunity cost. You are implicitly assuming all those kids will fail. I don’t believe that.

  6. Zach S December 29th, 2010 at 11:21 am

    1 more year! 1 more year! 1 more year! Andy, please come back for one more year, then ride off to the sunset. Get the final ovation you deserve.

  7. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 11:21 am

    Posada, Cano, Mariano, Bernie – they all had to earn their spots – nothing was handed to them.

    Derek was handed his job only because Tony Fernandez broke his arm.

    What is wrong with making these kids earn spots in the rotation ahead of some veteran pitchers? Absolutely nothing. The only people who think that prospects should be handed jobs are:

    1. Keith Law worshipers
    2. Fans of teams that can’t afford veterans
    3. Complete and utter morons.

  8. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 11:22 am

    Signing Martin means the Yanks can gamble some on Sanchez as a Catcher in 2 years maybe 3 instead of Montero. Personally, I hope they keep Montero. Signing Soriano means the Yanks keep their prospects and really protect a position that would cripple the team if Mo were to get injured in 2011 or 2012. Also, Soriano would get opportunities to close as well as being the SU guy and would open the door to trade Joba.

    The Yanks have two things in their favor most every year, Time & Money. The 1st month the Yanks usually use 4 starters anyway, so really a #5 SP is not a necessity until May or even mid-May. I think the Yanks need another LHP unless Marte is somehow available in 2011. When teams fall out of contention early some players will be available for salary relief & the Yanks should be able to pick them up as the season progresses.

  9. J. Alfred Prufrock December 29th, 2010 at 11:23 am

    I look forward to our next general manager. Hopefully he’ll be somebody who doesn’t spend the entire winter in hibernation.

    ///the guy is a yr removed from winning the whole thing.he’s not getting fired, genius.

  10. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 11:23 am

    Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 11:20 am
    “If they can’t show enough in spring training to beat a Freddy Garcia for a roster spot then they’re obviously not ready for the majors.”

    Freddy Garcia isn’t coming to the Yanks to compete for a job. If he signs with the Yanks, he’ll be given one.

    I don’t want that opportunity cost. You are implicitly assuming all those kids will fail. I don’t believe that.

    ————————

    I am assuming that kids will fail because most do.

    Garcia can be signed for 1 year at around $5 million – what his role is with the team will be determined by performance, just as what a kid’s role with the team should be determined by performance.

    If he gets beaten out by 2 kids (assuming Andy doesn’t return) then he gets mixed into the corps of relief pitchers and who knows – maybe he becomes our version of Benoit.

  11. Cashman needs to go December 29th, 2010 at 11:24 am

    The field at Yankee Stadium won’t be in the best shape after the second college football game in a month, with Syracuse playing Kansas State Thursday, but an AP report Tuesday stated that the plan is to resod

    *********************************

    Resod!?!?!?…but… but…won’t that cost money?!?! How are the yankees going to continue being profitable if they have to go out and spend even more money on new grass?!?!

  12. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 11:24 am

    “What is wrong with making these kids earn spots in the rotation ahead of some veteran pitchers? Absolutely nothing.”

    You aren’t listening.

    How is letting Nova, Phelps, Mitchell, Noesi, Warren and Brackman compete for two spots not making them earn a job? But if you sign a Garcia and let them compete for one it is?

  13. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 11:26 am

    randy-

    Soriano would be good in my scenario except that I don’t think he’d provide enough bang for the buck. At least, I believe the Yanks would view it that way. If they signed him I wouldn’t complain.

  14. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 11:26 am

    I would also point out that a team almost never goes through the season using only 5 starters – there will be plenty of opportunities for these kids to come up to the majors if they deserve such a shot.

    You’re assuming that the kids will succeed and that’s the same idiotic assumption that led to Sidney Ponson and Darrell Rasner filling out the back of the rotation in 08.

  15. randy l. December 29th, 2010 at 11:27 am

    “To put it another way, I believe we can win as many games with two kids in the rotation as with an available vet and a kid. Maybe more.”

    kids seem to average about 4 1/2 innings in their starts and often need to be sent back down and another young guy brought up. you’d need 4 young guys to get 2 at any one time.

    if you are going to advocate doing this you’re going to need 4 young pitchers and some serious depth in the bullpen.

    soriano?

  16. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 11:28 am

    Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 11:24 am
    “What is wrong with making these kids earn spots in the rotation ahead of some veteran pitchers? Absolutely nothing.”

    You aren’t listening.

    How is letting Nova, Phelps, Mitchell, Noesi, Warren and Brackman compete for two spots not making them earn a job? But if you sign a Garcia and let them compete for one it is?

    —————————–

    They still compete for two jobs.

    Garcia’s contract will not be so prohibitive as to force the Yankees to use him in the rotation.

    Garcia is not going to get a promise to be in the rotation – he’s going to be told, as every FA in his position is told, you’re going to have to compete for playing time.

  17. MTU December 29th, 2010 at 11:28 am

    Randy-

    “soriano?”

    King Kong.

    :)

  18. mick December 29th, 2010 at 11:30 am

    # mick December 29th, 2010 at 11:24 am

    of course the yanks would love to have soriano but does he want the Yanks is the real question…

  19. blake December 29th, 2010 at 11:30 am

    I think the Bang in “bang for your buck” is more important to the Yankees. Soriano could potentially help them a great deal.

  20. J. Alfred Prufrock December 29th, 2010 at 11:30 am

    You never know but I seriously doubt Brackman will compete for a starter job.Of the 3 KBs,he’s the one who still has an iffy 3rd pitch,but can play well in the BP with his 2 FBs & 2 CBs.I think the yanks will continue to try to develop ABrack as a starter longe range,but see him as a highend arm for BP for the stretch and postseason (he’s on 40-man). Betances,Banuelos are both starter material all the way,but are a couple yrs from it,probably 2013.

  21. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 11:31 am

    “Garcia’s contract will not be so prohibitive as to force the Yankees to use him in the rotation.

    Garcia is not going to get a promise to be in the rotation – he’s going to be told, as every FA in his position is told, you’re going to have to compete for playing time.”

    In the Chip world perhaps, but in the real world no way.

  22. mick December 29th, 2010 at 11:31 am

    we can’t always get what we want, george is dead…

  23. West Coast Yankee Fan December 29th, 2010 at 11:31 am

    This blog is a microcosm of American politics. We have our extremists on both sides of the ideological spectrum and independents in the middle. We have our loud pundits, our Glenn Becks and Keith Olbermann’s. And we have our voices of moderation, our Anderson Coopers.

    The Yankee Cheerleader Party. Club can do no wrong, Cashman is a genius, Girardi is great, the Sox stink, the Rays stink, the Jays stink, Burnett will win 20, the killer B’s will kill, A-Rod will hit 40, Jeter will hit .320, Gardner is better than Crawford, Grandy will dominate, K.Long is God, we are headed for number 28 no problem and everyone that doesn’t agree with us is a troll.

    The Doom and Gloom Party. This club is a disaster in the making. We are awful and are headed for fourth place, Girardi stinks, Cashman stinks, Hal stinks, we are old, Burnett will lose 20, Boston will win 115, Tex can’t hit, Jeter, Mo and Posada are done, we have a lousy rotation, we have no eighth inning guy, we have no bench, all the good free agents are gone, we are burnt toast and we hate everything.

    The Moderation Party: The Yankees are a very good team with some issues to address. We need a starter, a right-handed hitting outfielder, a setup guy and bench pieces. Cashman is a good GM who is working on it. Time will tell if he is successful. We are developing young pitchers but it will take patience. We may not win it all but we will be more than competitive and we have a shot at winning it all if our players perform at the level they are capable of. Boston has improved but they have some issues as well. You have to play the games.

  24. Cashman needs to go December 29th, 2010 at 11:32 am

    I don’t want that opportunity cost. You are implicitly assuming all those kids will fail. I don’t believe that…

    *********************

    Wave your hat….how many yankee minor leaguers can you name in the last 10 years that came up and were successful as soon as they hit the majors? And joba’s 2 months and hughes 3 starts a few years ago don’t count…i’m talking about they came up in april (or may) and stuck around all year because they were successful right off the bat…..heres a hint – right off the top of my head i’d say a total of Zero (maybe..maybe melky cabrera although his first game in the majors against the redsox was one to absolutely forget and his subsequent years were horrible)..

    so what makes you think any of the next group of minor leaguers will be successful this year? You know what they say about people that don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it…

  25. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 11:32 am

    The Yankees aren’t turning two spots in the rotation over to two kids – not unless Cashman is totally convinced they’re ready.

    Know how you know Cashman isn’t convinced of that? He’s showing interest in guys like Garcia and Francis.

    Brian made this mistake once; turning over spots to young kids because the hype and the hope was that they were ready – I don’t see him doing it again.

    Phelps, Nova, Noesi, Warren – they are no more ready than Hughes and Kennedy were in ’08 and not one of them is projected to have nearly the upside of Hughes and Kennedy.

  26. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 11:33 am

    Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 11:31 am
    “Garcia’s contract will not be so prohibitive as to force the Yankees to use him in the rotation.

    Garcia is not going to get a promise to be in the rotation – he’s going to be told, as every FA in his position is told, you’re going to have to compete for playing time.”

    In the Chip world perhaps, but in the real world no way.

    ——————————-

    Because you said so?

    Not a compelling argument.

  27. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 29th, 2010 at 11:34 am

    If Pettitte throws in the towel the Yankees are going to struggle to compete with Boston next season. It almost forces them to deal for someone and overpay if they want to try and be competitive. Sure, the offense is fine, but the rotation is questionable at best after CC, AJ, and Hughes.

    I was talking to a friend the other day and we both agreed that its time the Yankees get aggressive on Felix Hernandez and tell the Mariners to pick whoever they want and get it done with the caveat being that Phil Hughes is not included in any deal. Basically, you give up the farm for Felix. Montero, Nunez, Brackman, Betances, whoever. Give them 4 studs. You know what you’re going to get from Felix. We really have zero clue as to how successful any of our top prospects will be at the majors.

  28. mick December 29th, 2010 at 11:35 am

    Cash has money in his pocket and he WILL spend it.
    What is with the agita here, I know it’s a long winter and we all suffer from Yankee withdrawal but take a deep breath this is not the team we are going to Opening Day with.
    Whether it’s on Andy and a RP or not , it will be spent.

  29. Joe from Long Island December 29th, 2010 at 11:36 am

    WCYF – very good description of the factions here. I’m impressed.

  30. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 11:36 am

    RayVT, welcome back. A voice of reason returns.

    I’m amazed at folks who say that Soriano, who saved 45 games last season, is not enough bang for the buck. He could not only setup, but could spell Mariano for several games, ensuring he’s ready and rested for the post-season.

    The value of a rested, healthy and effective Mo for the post-season – PRICELESS.

    Now I don’t believe that he’ll necessarily be heir to Mo, because 2 years from now, if Mo is Mo, he may want to re-up, and who would say no to him if he’s still effective. But if it helps to ensure a WS or two in the intevening period, then it’s worth it.

  31. randy l. December 29th, 2010 at 11:36 am

    “Soriano would be good in my scenario except that I don’t think he’d provide enough bang for the buck. At least, I believe the Yanks would view it that way. If they signed him I wouldn’t complain.”

    wave your hat-

    i’m leaning this way to with soriano too.

    if two kids end up in the rotation the yankees need to demote the quickly if they don’t do well and not give them 8 starts like they did each with hughes and kennedy in 2008.

    this bring up options problems i assume. it also starts their mlb clock ticking.

    so i think there are hidden costs to adding young kinds that have to go down and up several times.

    the really solid way to bring up a guy is the way the rays are doing with hellickson. he’s experienced at triple a , 2 years, and he physically mature age-wise, and he’ll be pretty old when he’s a free agent unlike a guy who is brought up at age 21.

  32. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 11:37 am

    West Coast Yankee Fan December 29th, 2010 at 11:31 am
    This blog is a microcosm of American politics. We have our extremists on both sides of the ideological spectrum and independents in the middle. We have our loud pundits, our Glenn Becks and Keith Olbermann’s. And we have our voices of moderation, our Anderson Coopers.

    The Yankee Cheerleader Party. Club can do no wrong, Cashman is a genius, Girardi is great, the Sox stink, the Rays stink, the Jays stink, Burnett will win 20, the killer B’s will kill, A-Rod will hit 40, Jeter will hit .320, Gardner is better than Crawford, Grandy will dominate, K.Long is God, we are headed for number 28 no problem and everyone that doesn’t agree with us is a troll.

    The Doom and Gloom Party. This club is a disaster in the making. We are awful and are headed for fourth place, Girardi stinks, Cashman stinks, Hal stinks, we are old, Burnett will lose 20, Boston will win 115, Tex can’t hit, Jeter, Mo and Posada are done, we have a lousy rotation, we have no eighth inning guy, we have no bench, all the good free agents are gone, we are burnt toast and we hate everything.

    The Moderation Party: The Yankees are a very good team with some issues to address. We need a starter, a right-handed hitting outfielder, a setup guy and bench pieces. Cashman is a good GM who is working on it. Time will tell if he is successful. We are developing young pitchers but it will take patience. We may not win it all but we will be more than competitive and we have a shot at winning it all if our players perform at the level they are capable of. Boston has improved but they have some issues as well. You have to play the games.

    ———————

    Pretty sure you just defined all blogs regardless of topic.

  33. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 11:38 am

    Chip-
    The sad fate in 2008 does not determine all futures for all time. And I’m posting what I believe, not what I believe Cashman believes. What’s the point of that? And we don’t know what he believes anyway.

    Cashman needs to go-

    The Yankee farm was barren for a long time. It isn’t anymore. And if Cliff Lee were available, my point of view would be different. If anyone as good as Andy were available, my point of view would be different. In fact, if Carl Pavano was not named Carl Pavano, my point of view would be different.

    But you have to play the ball as it lays.

  34. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 29th, 2010 at 11:38 am

    Chip,

    I completely agree.

    Maybe Nova gets the 5th spot but something is going to have to be done to fill that other slot.

    I am also on board with the notion that it is important to build a deep farm system which we have successfully done (and relatively quickly) over the past 4 years or so. Its time to use some of those UNPROVEN assets and turn them into something BIG TIME.

  35. yankeefeminista December 29th, 2010 at 11:39 am

    Brackman needs to continue to work on his change up for SP purposes. Agree we could see him out of pen late, but will give him every chance to be a starter.

    I doubt we go with two kids. Although if we have a decent bridge, eating innings will be less difficult. Alas, no Aceves of ’09.

    As for Soriano, he did pitch a lot of back to back games in 2010 for Rays. So, for once he was pretty durable. However, got to wonder about our proclivity to go x years and dollars for a SU and would Soriano want to SU? If we are interested, hopefully, the price is dropping on him.

  36. Joe from Long Island December 29th, 2010 at 11:39 am

    randy – good morning. Maybe it’s because I’ve been reading a bio of Yogi Berra, but there’s no way I trade Montero in any deal. If they want an EIG/understudy to Mo, then sign Soriano and give up money. I wouldn’t offer Montero in trade for Soria.

    I know Montero’s got a long ways to go, especially to be compared to a player like Yogi Berra, one of the best players in the history of the game. But, you can always make more money. You can’t make eye-popping talent.

  37. Cashman needs to go December 29th, 2010 at 11:40 am

    West Coast Yankee Fan December 29th, 2010 at 11:31 am
    This blog is a microcosm of American politics. We have our extremists on both sides of the ideological spectrum and independents in the middle. We have our loud pundits, our Glenn Becks and Keith Olbermann’s. And we have our voices of moderation, our Anderson Coopers.

    The Yankee Cheerleader Party. Club can do no wrong, Cashman is a genius, Girardi is great, the Sox stink, the Rays stink, the Jays stink, Burnett will win 20, the killer B’s will kill, A-Rod will hit 40, Jeter will hit .320, Gardner is better than Crawford, Grandy will dominate, K.Long is God, we are headed for number 28 no problem and everyone that doesn’t agree with us is a troll.

    The Doom and Gloom Party. This club is a disaster in the making. We are awful and are headed for fourth place, Girardi stinks, Cashman stinks, Hal stinks, we are old, Burnett will lose 20, Boston will win 115, Tex can’t hit, Jeter, Mo and Posada are done, we have a lousy rotation, we have no eighth inning guy, we have no bench, all the good free agents are gone, we are burnt toast and we hate everything.

    The Moderation Party: The Yankees are a very good team with some issues to address. We need a starter, a right-handed hitting outfielder, a setup guy and bench pieces. Cashman is a good GM who is working on it. Time will tell if he is successful. We are developing young pitchers but it will take patience. We may not win it all but we will be more than competitive and we have a shot at winning it all if our players perform at the level they are capable of. Boston has improved but they have some issues as well. You have to play the games.

    *********************************
    Isn’t it the same way with just about everything in this world? I could give you the same breakdown of groups in the office that i work in about the quality of restaurants and delis that they go out to lunch for…. or how nice/bad the christmas party was…..

  38. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 11:40 am

    DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 11:36 am
    RayVT, welcome back. A voice of reason returns.

    I’m amazed at folks who say that Soriano, who saved 45 games last season, is not enough bang for the buck. He could not only setup, but could spell Mariano for several games, ensuring he’s ready and rested for the post-season.

    The value of a rested, healthy and effective Mo for the post-season – PRICELESS.

    Now I don’t believe that he’ll necessarily be heir to Mo, because 2 years from now, if Mo is Mo, he may want to re-up, and who would say no to him if he’s still effective. But if it helps to ensure a WS or two in the intevening period, then it’s worth it.

    ———————–

    I think Soriano in theory is an excellent idea…who wouldn’t?

    I think Soriano in practice is not. Now, if Soriano (or Boras) come to the Yankees and say “we’ll do a 1 year deal and test the closer market again next season” I’m all for it. But my guess is that Soriano is going to want a ton of money and years to “make up” for the fact that he’s giving up his closer role.

  39. YankeesNmore December 29th, 2010 at 11:41 am

    QUOTE: the guy (Cashman) is a yr removed from winning the whole thing.he’s not getting fired, genius.
    ——————————————————————————————————
    Hey, I can dream, can’t I? The problem with Cashman is he gets way too comfortable way too fast, and he has to be desperate to act (see post-2008 after the Yankees missed the playoffs).

    The Yankees won in 2009, and now Cashman is comfortable again and willing to throw away a season in an attempt to show the world how smart he is with subtle moves and kids.

  40. Joe from Long Island December 29th, 2010 at 11:41 am

    And, I’d sign a Kevin Millwood or similar type of pitcher, who’s been around the block and knows how to survive, to bolster the backend of the rotation. Just like Russell Martin being an insurance policy for Montero and the catching position, Millwood/this type pitcher would be an insurance policy for the young pitchers close to being ready.

    There are worse ways to spend the leftover Lee money.

  41. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 29th, 2010 at 11:42 am

    Guys like Freddy Garcia, Jeff Francis, and Kevin Millwood are a waste of time to discuss.

    If the Yankees hope to win it all in 2011, its time to do something big and by that I mean its time to make a big deal for a premier starter. Every player is available via trade for the right price.

  42. yankeefeminista December 29th, 2010 at 11:42 am

    I realize we were willing to trade Montero for Lee/Halladay, but Soria? What was mlbtr’s source on that? Sounds shady to me that we would trade the Jesus for a non-SP.

  43. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 11:43 am

    And for all those who have issues with GB, just note that not everyone has sacrificed for their country for as long as and in difficult situations as has GB.

    If he’s a little rough around the edges and quick tempered, so be it. Frankly I think he’s pretty insightful, knows more about the minor league players that most, and if he has faults, as we all do, it’s he can be a bit short tempered, but who isn’t. Particularly when folks want to talk behind his back. I don’t think most soldiers, never mind the SOF type, would appreciate that.

    GIve him the respect and slack he deserves. He’s been through, and is going through what most of us couldn’t.

  44. just_another_handle December 29th, 2010 at 11:43 am

    Soriano was great last year for the Rays w/Balfour and Benoit in front of him. That was a scary BP.

    That said, when Mo is no longer Mo, the Yankees will be like every other team out there trying to catch lightening in a bottle in their search for a closer. That level of consistency will not likely be seen again for a lonnnnggg time.

    Closing for the Rays in a pressure packed pennant race is IMO vastly different from closing in KC with a team that is playing meaningless games from July on.

    Take Soriano and have insurance. Better to have insurance and not need it than have a disaster and not have it. Ask any car or home owner that didn’t have it because they wanted to save money.

  45. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 11:43 am

    randy-

    I believe you only use one option per year regardless of the number of times you are actually brought up, but I’d defer to someone knowledgeable like SJ44 for rules applications.

    And I agree there are pitfalls with any approach, I’m not (usually) a “my way or the highway” kind of guy. I just believes the pitfalls with my approach are fewer and shallower than with the other approaches that are available to the Yanks right now.

    And Soriano would be good to get, I’m just skeptical.

  46. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 11:44 am

    Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 11:38 am
    Chip-
    The sad fate in 2008 does not determine all futures for all time. No it doesn’t, but there’s a reason why “those who don’t learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them” has been an axiom for as long as it has.

    And I’m posting what I believe, not what I believe Cashman believes. What’s the point of that? And we don’t know what he believes anyway. No, we don’t know what Cashman believes, but we can use logic and common sense to analyze his actions and come up with a fair notion of what he’s thinking

  47. YankeesNmore December 29th, 2010 at 11:44 am

    QUOTE: “Guys like Freddy Garcia, Jeff Francis, and Kevin Millwood are a waste of time to discuss.”
    ———————————————————————————————————-
    So are Brian Cashman and Derek Jeter, but they both still have jobs with the Yankees.

  48. blake December 29th, 2010 at 11:46 am

    I think as LGY said last night their source was Stark and that report was denied by the Yankees if I remember correctly. I highly doubt Montero was ever offered for Soria…..at least I hope not.

  49. randy l. December 29th, 2010 at 11:47 am

    “Maybe it’s because I’ve been reading a bio of Yogi Berra, but there’s no way I trade Montero in any deal. If they want an EIG/understudy to Mo, then sign Soriano and give up money. I wouldn’t offer Montero in trade for Soria.”

    joe in long island-

    i totally agree. with what little i’ve watched montero i really want to see him play for the yankees.

    i have a really good feel about him.

  50. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 11:47 am

    YankeesNmore December 29th, 2010 at 11:41 am
    QUOTE: the guy (Cashman) is a yr removed from winning the whole thing.he’s not getting fired, genius.
    ——————————————————————————————————
    Hey, I can dream, can’t I? The problem with Cashman is he gets way too comfortable way too fast, and he has to be desperate to act (see post-2008 after the Yankees missed the playoffs).

    The Yankees won in 2009, and now Cashman is comfortable again and willing to throw away a season in an attempt to show the world how smart he is with subtle moves and kids.
    —————————

    Cashman wasn’t desperate after 2008 – he had major money coming off the books (Giambi, Abreu, Mussina) and had a couple of prime FA’s on the board Sabathia, Tex, who filled those spots.

  51. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 11:47 am

    Chip-

    No one asked you to be compelled anywhere. But if you think the Yanks are going sign a Garcia without an understanding as to a rotation spot I believe you are in the minority.

  52. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 29th, 2010 at 11:49 am

    YankeesNmore,

    I’m merely making the point that if the Yankees want to compete for the championship next season, guys like Garcia, Francis, Millwood are not going to cut it.

    They need an impact starting pitcher. Now, for the record, I am very happy we missed out on Cliff Lee. A 7 year deal to that guy would have come back to bite us before too long.

    Its time to make a trade even if it means we have to overpay for a starter…that is, IF we’re trying to win it in 2011.

    If Cashman decides to sign one of those aged, back end veterans then he’s merely biding his time in preparation for 2012 because we’re going to get our backsides handed to us by numerous teams in the AL all season.

  53. YankeesNmore December 29th, 2010 at 11:50 am

    Chip, Brian Cashman was one more bad year away from losing his job… He almost lost it sticking by Joe Torre til the bitter end.

    If you don’t think he was desperate after 2008, you either were not paying attention and are blind to the realities of holding that job.

  54. mick December 29th, 2010 at 11:50 am

    If Andy leaves and they get Garcia, sign me up for the Gloom and Doom Party.

  55. J. Alfred Prufrock December 29th, 2010 at 11:51 am

    Hey, I can dream, can’t I? The problem with Cashman is he gets way too comfortable way too fast, and he has to be desperate to act (see post-2008 after the Yankees missed the playoffs).

    The Yankees won in 2009, and now Cashman is comfortable again and willing to throw away a season in an attempt to show the world how smart he is with subtle moves and kids.

    ///Desperation is not a mindset I want my gm to be in.he was lucky to be saved from a desperate act when the Mariners called off montero for lee last spring.that wasn’t complacency on cashman’s part,but it was stupidity.your idea that the current roster indicates a throw away season is not very credible.

  56. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 11:51 am

    Chip-

    No, I don’t believe you can come up with a fair notion of what Cashman is thinking. But if you believe it, more power to you.

    I have to move on for a while. Adios.

  57. YankeesNmore December 29th, 2010 at 11:51 am

    Agreed, Mad Prince. Just pointing out how pathetic this offseason has been, thanks to that $#!thead we call a GM.

  58. MTU December 29th, 2010 at 11:52 am

    WYH-

    To the best of my knowledge that is correct. 1 option burned no matter how many times up and and down that same year.

  59. blake December 29th, 2010 at 11:52 am

    I agree that Millwood, Garcia, etc aren’t likely to come to ST and compete for a job…..if they would then that would be great and Id say ok. What im not wild about is guaranteeing a spot to one of these guys thats upside is mediocrity.

  60. West Coast Yankee Fan December 29th, 2010 at 11:53 am

    Good take by those commenting on the politics of this blog – it really is the same in almost every endeavor, large or small. It probably has a lot to do with personality and other factors.

    I think I missed one thing though, need to add a radical terrorist party to accommodate Ruby Tuesday.

  61. J. Alfred Prufrock December 29th, 2010 at 11:53 am

    *last fall i mean, on montero for lee.

  62. LGY December 29th, 2010 at 11:54 am

    “the really solid way to bring up a guy is the way the rays are doing with hellickson.”

    ————————

    How do you know this?

    How does Hellickson’s time in the minors compare with the top starters in baseball?

  63. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 29th, 2010 at 11:55 am

    YankeesNMore,

    I don’t think it was all within Cashman’s control, to be honest. Lee chose to go elsewhere and all indications said that the Yankees weren’t even his second favorite choice. You can’t blame him for that.

    As far as the other bigtimers go, they play positions that don’t represent needs in NYY. Crawford is making way too much $$ for a corner OF and Werth is 32 and not that much of an upgrade over Swish.

    We can still improve the team but we’ll see whether or not Cash & Co. have the balls to make a big deal and cut loose a chunk of their farm.

  64. LGY December 29th, 2010 at 11:56 am

    I haven’t seen anyone on this blog that would fit the “Cheerleader” description this offseason.

  65. MTU December 29th, 2010 at 11:56 am

    Blake-

    The purpose of a Millwood, etc. is to eat innings that a rookie is unlikely to do.

    This protects the BP from overuse and potential burnout.

    Going with AJ and 2 rooks would lead to BP burnout IMO.

    Either way. AP or not the BP should be fortified.

    We can handle Nova in the 5 slot as long as AP is back.

  66. J. Alfred Prufrock December 29th, 2010 at 11:56 am

    If he’s a little rough around the edges and quick tempered, so be it. Frankly I think he’s pretty insightful, knows more about the minor league players that most, and if he has faults, as we all do, it’s he can be a bit short tempered, but who isn’t. Particularly when folks want to talk behind his back. I don’t think most soldiers, never mind the SOF type, would appreciate that.

    ///i’ve noticed on this blog there’s a crowd here who like to mythologize one another.that’s fine,but it really has nothing to do with core discussions.i think i can make up my own mind on who makes good points and who doesn’t without others indulging the ‘personality’ game here.which isn’t of interest to me.

  67. yankeefeminista December 29th, 2010 at 11:59 am

    blake December 29th, 2010 at 11:46 am
    I think as LGY said last night their source was Stark and that report was denied by the Yankees if I remember correctly. I highly doubt Montero was ever offered for Soria…..at least I hope not.
    _______
    I should expect not. I’d love to have Soria, but I had a hard time believing we would make such a deal based on position alone.

  68. LGY December 29th, 2010 at 12:00 pm

    Millwood or Garcia are not signing with the Yankees to compete for a rotation spot. They will be guaranteed jobs in the rotation out of ST before signing any deal because if not the Yankees some other team with guarantee them a spot.

    Maybe, just maybe you can get a guy like Francis to sing on to compete for a spot but that is still in doubt.

    Veteran SP are not signing with the Yankees to come compete when they can just get a guaranteed spot elsewhere.

    The idea of a huge competition between a vet or two and the kids for a couple spots in the rotation is a pipedream.

    You either have to commit to the vet or commit to the kids.

  69. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 12:00 pm

    blake December 29th, 2010 at 11:52 am
    I agree that Millwood, Garcia, etc aren’t likely to come to ST and compete for a job…..if they would then that would be great and Id say ok. What im not wild about is guaranteeing a spot to one of these guys thats upside is mediocrity.

    ———————-

    Blake -

    I think these players are at a stage in their careers where they understand that they are going to have to earn their playing time. Garcia moreso than Millwood; which is why I think Garcia is a more likely alternative than Millwood for the Yankees.

    Obviously, the first thing these guys look for is a definite starting job – after they can’t find one they look for a spot where there are glaring openings that they know they can compete for a starting job. It’s kind of like why an Eric Hinske would rather sign with Altanta than the Yankees – he knows he’s not going in there as a starter but he also knows that his chances of earning a starting job (or at least more playing time) are greater based on the competition for playing time.

    I believe that a guy like Millwood or Garcia looks at the Yankees and says, “I know they have these kids, but as a veteran I’ve seen kids fail all over the place, if I go in there and do what I’ve done my entire career I’ve got a shot at beating them out or at the very least getting back in the rotation when they flame out.”

  70. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 12:01 pm

    DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 11:36 am

    Thanks! I agree! Who knows with Mo! I like Soriano! I think he will sign wherever he feels his best chance to win is and who pays top dollar. I hope the Yanks get him.

  71. MTU December 29th, 2010 at 12:01 pm

    LGY-

    No I don’t. False dichotomy. I can committ to one veteran and 1 kid.

    :)

  72. mick December 29th, 2010 at 12:02 pm

    By all this discussion man Andy has us by the balls, 16m and get it over with.

  73. J. Alfred Prufrock December 29th, 2010 at 12:03 pm

    yankeefeminista December 29th, 2010 at 11:59 am
    blake December 29th, 2010 at 11:46 am
    I think as LGY said last night their source was Stark and that report was denied by the Yankees if I remember correctly. I highly doubt Montero was ever offered for Soria…..at least I hope not.
    _______
    I should expect not. I’d love to have Soria, but I had a hard time believing we would make such a deal based on position alone.
    ////I really HOPE that montero was never offered for Soria.that would scare me greatly about brian cashman going forward.as it is,montero for a couple months of lee was discouraging enough.no one was happier when that fell through at the 11th hr than me.

  74. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 12:04 pm

    LGY December 29th, 2010 at 12:00 pm
    Millwood or Garcia are not signing with the Yankees to compete for a rotation spot. They will be guaranteed jobs in the rotation out of ST before signing any deal because if not the Yankees some other team with guarantee them a spot.

    Maybe, just maybe you can get a guy like Francis to sing on to compete for a spot but that is still in doubt.

    Veteran SP are not signing with the Yankees to come compete when they can just get a guaranteed spot elsewhere.
    ——————–

    LGY – you’re assuming they are getting starting jobs elsewhere – for Millwood I think that’s probably true. Some team, like Baltimore last year, may bring him in to serve as a mentor to a young pitching staff – but I think that’s less the case for Garcia.

    I think at this stage Garcia understands that he’s going to have to fight for starts.

  75. yankeefeminista December 29th, 2010 at 12:04 pm

    just_another_handle December 29th, 2010 at 11:43 am
    Soriano was great last year for the Rays w/Balfour and Benoit in front of him. That was a scary BP.

    That said, when Mo is no longer Mo, the Yankees will be like every other team out there trying to catch lightening in a bottle in their search for a closer. That level of consistency will not likely be seen again for a lonnnnggg time.

    Closing for the Rays in a pressure packed pennant race is IMO vastly different from closing in KC with a team that is playing meaningless games from July on.

    Take Soriano and have insurance. Better to have insurance and not need it than have a disaster and not have it. Ask any car or home owner that didn’t have it because they wanted to save money.
    ______
    Rays bullpen was lights out last year. However, I don’t doubt Soria’s stuff would translate to the AL East in meaningful games. I just would prefer an FA to a trade. Thus, Soriano over Soria. However, all things being equal, Soria is younger, and less injury prone. But yeah, sign the FA if you can swing it w/o way overpaying in years and cost.

  76. LGY December 29th, 2010 at 12:05 pm

    MTU

    :lol:

    I meant for each individual rotation spot you have to make that commitment.

  77. MTU December 29th, 2010 at 12:06 pm

    LGY-

    I knew what you meant.

    ;)

  78. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 12:07 pm

    I think signing the LHP Francis is a no brainer. He could be a good SP if he is healthy. Plus being LH is always a plus in YS. If he doesn’t pan out he could be traded to an NL team for something of value as long as he is healthy.

  79. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 12:07 pm

    MTU December 29th, 2010 at 11:56 am
    Blake-

    The purpose of a Millwood, etc. is to eat innings that a rookie is unlikely to do.

    This protects the BP from overuse and potential burnout.

    Going with AJ and 2 rooks would lead to BP burnout IMO.

    Either way. AP or not the BP should be fortified.

    We can handle Nova in the 5 slot as long as AP is back.

    ———————–

    Very true –

    if Andy’s not back you’re looking at possibly having three spots in the rotation where you’re going to get maybe 5 innings per game. It will be like the Mets last year – I don’t want to be like the Mets last year.

    I would rather take a shot on a Garcia or a Francis and hope that one of them performs the way Colby Lewis did for Texas last year; but if nothing else, I won’t cry if Girardi leaves them out there to eat innings and give the pen a blow.

  80. yankeefeminista December 29th, 2010 at 12:07 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock December 29th, 2010 at 12:03 pm
    yankeefeminista December 29th, 2010 at 11:59 am

    I should expect not. I’d love to have Soria, but I had a hard time believing we would make such a deal based on position alone.

    ////I really HOPE that montero was never offered for Soria.that would scare me greatly about brian cashman going forward.as it is,montero for a couple months of lee was discouraging enough.no one was happier when that fell through at the 11th hr than me.
    ______
    QFT, Pruf.

  81. BoJo December 29th, 2010 at 12:07 pm

    Bruce Chen IS the answer.

    (Now I just have to figure out what the question is.)

  82. LGY December 29th, 2010 at 12:07 pm

    Chip,

    Have you taken a look at the 4 or 5 starters around the league?

  83. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 12:09 pm

    I also like Soria, but not at the expense of Montero. Not sure KC needs a Catcher. Maybe Joba, a KB & cash would get the deal done as in taking back Joba’s salary.

  84. Mike Ri December 29th, 2010 at 12:09 pm

    I think signing the LHP Francis is a no brainer. He could be a good SP if he is healthy. Plus being LH is always a plus in YS. If he doesn?t pan out he could be traded to an NL team for something of value as long as he is healthy.

    I agree RayVT.. At this point Francis is our best option. ( and thats not saying much )

  85. MTU December 29th, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    This discussion all goes away if AP would just take his 16 million to return.

    Now if we could just get Cashman and co. to offer it.

    ;)

  86. yankeefeminista December 29th, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    Has anyone other website replaced “minor league splits?”

  87. YankeesNmore December 29th, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    Mad Prince, whether or not you believe this is all Cashman’s fault is up to you… Personally, I do. I think he’s making all the same mistakes he made when he tried to show the world how brilliant he was heading into the 2008 season.

    However, regardless of whether or not you believe Cashman is entirely at fault doesn’t matter… He will, unquestionably, be held accountable for the product/results at the major league level.

  88. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 12:12 pm

    RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 12:07 pm
    I think signing the LHP Francis is a no brainer. He could be a good SP if he is healthy. Plus being LH is always a plus in YS. If he doesn’t pan out he could be traded to an NL team for something of value as long as he is healthy.

    ————–

    No argument here.

  89. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 12:12 pm

    While Garcia is a safe signing, Francis, since he’s a lefty, is probably makes more sense for now. Two lefties are needed in this rotation, and should it so happen that Nova and someone else are more deserving, he could be moved to the pen for long-relief/spot starts.

    Cashman has options remaining for the pen, he just needs to pull the trigger.

    After all, he does have about $30M currently burning a hole in his pocket.

  90. mick December 29th, 2010 at 12:12 pm

    If he werent getting Tommy John surgery I would go for Jamie Moyer…Perfect for the Stadium.

  91. blake December 29th, 2010 at 12:13 pm

    Chip,

    I think the longer the offseason goes the more likely it could be that one of these guys might take an “unguaranteed job”….but they are going to wait as long as they can to see if something opens up.

    MTU,
    I still think Andy is coming back so……;)

  92. mick December 29th, 2010 at 12:14 pm

    This discussion all goes away if AP would just take his 16 million to return.

    Now if we could just get Cashman and co. to offer it.
    ——————————————————-
    This is what is pissing off Andy….why wouldn’t they offer it?

  93. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 12:14 pm

    LGY December 29th, 2010 at 12:07 pm
    Chip,

    Have you taken a look at the 4 or 5 starters around the league?

    —————-

    I have.

    But in a lot of those cases you’re talking about teams that don’t have the money that the Yankees do, which means investing $5 mil in a 4th or 5th starter is not an option for them as it is for the Yankees.

    Would Garcia be a useful starter on the Royals? Absolutely. But are the Royals going to spend money to sign a Freddy Garcia? Probably not.

  94. Bret The Hitman December 29th, 2010 at 12:15 pm

    The elephant in the room is the lack of a #2 starter to be Cliff Lee behind CC. The Yankees gave us $150 million reasons which way they’re leaning as they put together a rotation.

    The Yankees will likely play 2011 without that top shelf starter.

    Next offseason, there are no front end caliber free agent pitchers.

    Without surrendering Montero in a trade, the Yankees will not be able to add that starter. Perhaps Montero’s trade value has yet to peak and 1 more full season in AAA will put the Yankees in a better position to trade him for a JJ or Felix type of pitcher without selling as much of the farm as they would have to now. GM’s certainly don’t seem to be treating Montero as the next Mike Piazza just yet.

    Without that #2 starter, there’s no way they trade Montero for Soria…so KC can just dream on with that one. Their fans are talking like no minor league prospect is off limits for Soria. Now that KC acquired a CF and SS in the Greinke trade, Gardner and Nunez make no sense for them. They definitely would want Jesus Montero.

    With Soriano on the market for money alone, Soria makes no sense. Plus Marmol is a free agent in 2 years and he’s still young.

    Soriano will cost high dollars and a draft pick and that will hurt.

    However, signing him is really one of the last impact moves Cashman can make to improve the team.

    Pettitte is the other.

    I really hope Montero tears it up in AAA this year and adds more trade value to help the Yankees get that #2 guy. They really need that starter more than they need Montero moving forward. Keep in mind I’m bullish on Russell Martin, Austin Romine and Gary Sanchez.

    It’s looking like patience (lack of a Cliff Lee plan B) is going to cost the team at least 1 year.

  95. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 12:16 pm

    blake December 29th, 2010 at 12:13 pm
    Chip,

    I think the longer the offseason goes the more likely it could be that one of these guys might take an “unguaranteed job”….but they are going to wait as long as they can to see if something opens up.

    MTU,
    I still think Andy is coming back so……;)

    ————————————

    Agreed – but the Yankees aren’t in any rush either – there are a bunch of guys in the Garcia camp: Garcia, Young, Bonderman, Francis, Robertson…they’re all about the same (though Bonderman and Francis and Young probably have more upside) and not all of them are going to find starting jobs.

  96. MTU December 29th, 2010 at 12:16 pm

    Lefty priority list:

    AP- Take the money Andy.

    Danks/Kershaw/Anderson – Not happening

    Wandy Rodriguez/Gio Gonzalez- Are they avaliable ?

    Francis- Can he eat the innings ?

    Jamie Moyer- Now that’s an idea.

    :)

  97. yankeefeminista December 29th, 2010 at 12:16 pm

    I think for Andy it is more about whether the groin/body will rebound than the money aspect. I am sure they can settle on an amenable price should any choose to return.

  98. YankeesNmore December 29th, 2010 at 12:16 pm

    QUOTE: “If he werent getting Tommy John surgery I would go for Jamie Moyer”
    —————————————————————————————————
    Like Tommy John surgery has ever stopped Cashman from signing/drafting a guy… Our idiot GM is still waiting for Mitre to get “far enough removed” from TJ surgery to stop being pathetic.

    Moreover, virtually every one of those no-experience magic beans so many are pissing their pants over has had the surgery, as well.

  99. MTU December 29th, 2010 at 12:17 pm

    “why wouldn’t they offer it?”

    The new guard.

    ;)

  100. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 29th, 2010 at 12:18 pm

    You’re all wearing blinders.

    The Yankees will not do diddley squat in 2011 with the current rotation plus any of Garcia, Millwood, Francis, or any pitcher of that ilk. Simple as that.

    We can try to make a sizeable trade that reigns in a dominant SP or we can go with what we have and try to build for 2012. I’m sure we can make some waves but this team will not have the starting pitching depth to do damage in the playoffs.

    Now, of course we could hope to stay in the race and see who is available at the trade deadline but the asking price could go even higher at that point.

    Again, anyone is available via trade for the right price.

  101. 86w183 December 29th, 2010 at 12:18 pm

    It is a big mistake to lump Garcia (12-6, 4.64) and Millwood (4-16, 5.10) in the same category. Freddie was much more effective last year with a significantly better ERA plus (94 to 83) and WHIP (1.376 to 1.510).

    If you sign Garcia it’s to be the No. 4 guy behind AJ and leave the No. 5 to Nova/whoever. You don’t spend $ 5 M to see if he can make the team.

    I don’t believe there is any chance at all that Soriano signs for a non-closer situation. Fuentes, Rausch and Gregg might, but not Soriano.

  102. yankeefeminista December 29th, 2010 at 12:19 pm

    *Andy* not “any”

  103. LGY December 29th, 2010 at 12:19 pm

    Chip,

    Not just the bottom dwellers. Look at the Twins for example.

    I am not saying the Yankees can’t sign Garcia.

    They certainly can.

    But if they do AND pay him upwards of $5 million, that will come with a guarantee. The Yankees are not signing a player for $5 without knowing that pitcher will be in the rotation and Garcia is not signing with a team unless he is guaranteed a spot.

  104. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 12:20 pm

    Bret -

    I think the Yankees are fine with Hughes as the number 2. Would they have liked Lee? Absolutely. Do they feel that their world is crumbling without him? Probably not.

    I think what’s more of a problem is Andy’s lack of a decision.

    If you take it on scenarios the Yankees were hoping for a rotation of:

    CC, Lee, Hughes, Andy, AJ

    Would have been alright with a rotation of:

    CC, Hughes, Andy, AJ, youngster or CC, Lee, Hughes, AJ, youngster

    But what they’re faced with right now is a worst case scenario of potentially having two youngsters in the rotation with AJ in the three spot. Which is why they’re looking for sensible veterans for the back of the rotation.

    As I said yesterday – if Andy doesn’t return, the most important player in determining the fortunes of the Yankees will be AJ Burnett. If you get a good season from AJ this is a playoff team. If you don’t then this is going to be a long season.

  105. LGY December 29th, 2010 at 12:20 pm

    “The Yankees will not do diddley squat in 2011″

    —————–

    Define diddley squat.

    If you can find more than one team better in the AL than the NYY as currently constructed that will be a surprise to me.

  106. MTU December 29th, 2010 at 12:21 pm

    Bring back Joba.

    Turn him into a switch-pitcher.

    :)

  107. J. Alfred Prufrock December 29th, 2010 at 12:21 pm

    yankeefeminista December 29th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
    I think for Andy it is more about whether the groin/body will rebound than the money aspect. I am sure they can settle on an amenable price should any choose to return.

    ///yea I don’t see how folks don’t get that,based on his own trepidation about working out in offseason.and I agree they’ll find a figure to settle on that works.

  108. Mike Ri December 29th, 2010 at 12:23 pm

    Brett And Mad Prince

    Both .. great posts . . . i agree 100 percent …

  109. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 12:23 pm

    LGY December 29th, 2010 at 12:19 pm
    Chip,

    Not just the bottom dwellers. Look at the Twins for example.

    I am not saying the Yankees can’t sign Garcia.

    They certainly can.

    But if they do AND pay him upwards of $5 million, that will come with a guarantee. The Yankees are not signing a player for $5 without knowing that pitcher will be in the rotation and Garcia is not signing with a team unless he is guaranteed a spot.

    ———————–

    Alright – let’s for a minute go on the assumption that Cashman says “sign here and you’ll be our number 4 starter” That’s not written in stone.

    If a kid, Phelps for the sake of a name, is dominant in Scranton to open the season and Garcia is middling around or getting lit up(which I don’t think he’ll do – I happen to think Garcia is still a good pitcher) do you think the Yankees would hesitate to move him out of the rotation in favor of Phelps?

    I don’t. Heck the Yankees moved Javy to the pen at times last year and he was making a heck of a lot more money than they would pay Freddy Garcia.

  110. J. Alfred Prufrock December 29th, 2010 at 12:24 pm

    MTU December 29th, 2010 at 12:21 pm
    Bring back Joba.

    Turn him into a switch-pitcher.

    ///i’d settle for righthanded starter.

  111. MTU December 29th, 2010 at 12:24 pm

    For 16 million dollars I’d fight on the front lines of a Civil War battle.

    I wouldn’t survive but my family would be well taken care of.

    I think Andy’s crotch can handle it for 16 mill.

    :)

  112. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 29th, 2010 at 12:25 pm

    Bret the Hitman,

    Finally a voice of reason (in addition to my own :) )

    Regarding Montero, my concern is that if they add him to the majors roster, his value runs a high risk of decreasing substantially if he falters at the start of the season.

    That’s the reason I would personally lobby for them to try and make a big trade splash now instead of waiting until midseason or until next offseason.

    If Andy returns this season then maybe it doesn’t matter as much. But that is looking bleak.

    I am one of the people that tries to temper my expectations/hopes for unproven prospects. If they can add a Felix or a JJ and have to give up 3 or 4 top notch prospects, I think they are in the best position to do so now. Prospects are a dime a dozen and of late we’ve brought up quite a few of our own farmhands with success. Its time to use those assets.

  113. LGY December 29th, 2010 at 12:27 pm

    Enough of the whining and complaining.

    Unless you put context to your criticisms that is all it is. Just pure whining. Basically tantrum filled rants with no real information.

    If you want to talk about the Yankees position in the 4 and 5 spots in the rotation, compare them to the Yankee competition. If you want to talk about the offense compare it to the competition. If you want to whine about the bullpen compare it to the competition.

    It doesn’t matter what the Yankees do independently. All that matters is how the Yankees stack up to the competition.

    Enough of this nonsense the Yankees are not going anywhere or stink or are a 3rd or 4th place team or any other of the ridiculous hyperbole on here without this or that.

    Provide some damn context or stop whining like a child.

  114. austinmac December 29th, 2010 at 12:27 pm

    Mick,

    No doubt Cashman has money to spend, but their is no one to spend it on other than Soriano or to a lesser extent Rauch. While that fills a vital hole, it still leaves the biggest hole in the rotation.

    All of us have the shortcoming of lack of knowledge. What pitchers are available and at what cost? I hope if the cost is not prohibitive, a trade is made for at least a dependable pitcher. Have no doubt to do that will cost, now or at the deadline.

  115. 108 stitches December 29th, 2010 at 12:28 pm

    Cashman this – Cashman that.

    The man himself is not a true talent evaluator. He has full reliance on the input of Damon Oppenheimer, Billy Eppler, Mark Newman, and Stick Michael before arriving at decisions.

  116. LGY December 29th, 2010 at 12:29 pm

    “If a kid, Phelps for the sake of a name, is dominant in Scranton to open the season and Garcia is middling around or getting lit up(which I don’t think he’ll do – I happen to think Garcia is still a good pitcher) do you think the Yankees would hesitate to move him out of the rotation in favor of Phelps?

    I don’t. Heck the Yankees moved Javy to the pen at times last year and he was making a heck of a lot more money than they would pay Freddy Garcia.”

    —————————-

    Then why didn’t they call up Phelps for Javy last year when he was dominating? What about Nova? Why did it take so long to call up Nova?

    Javy was moved to the BP at times because of injury (dead arm). They stuck with him basically the entire season despite him being beyond awful. Below replacement level awful.

    I am not contending whether the Yankees should sign Garcia.

    All I am saying is that if they do, he will be in the rotation for the long haul unless he gets injured.

  117. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 29th, 2010 at 12:29 pm

    Mike Ri,

    You build your farm for two purposes: developing and adding cheap talent for the major league squad or to address needs via trade.

    I genuinely believe that this is one of the situations where we can maximize our assets via trade and still have plenty of talent left in the farm to continue other development.

    Our offense is already nasty. Any potential that Montero adds at the plate over the next 4 or 5 years would be eclipsed by the potential that a star pitcher would add to our rotation over that same period of time.

  118. 4 NYY December 29th, 2010 at 12:29 pm

    Anyone that knocks Jeter here after all he’s done is not a Yank fan at all.

    If he continues with the year he had last year at bat, then you’re on to something.

    Till then, STFU !!!

    Get Soria !!!

  119. stuart a December 29th, 2010 at 12:31 pm

    Bret the Hitman with his usual get everyone panic routine. Nice to see the same old. How about this novel concept, some of the yankee prospects will actually tutn into good players>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    how about 1 or 2 of these guys; brackman, betances, nova, warren, montero, banuelas, etc will actually become very good major leaguers over the next 2 years………………………

    Sounds outrageous but why pay huge signing bonuses and waste high picks if there is no chance these guys can become contributors.

    I like the yanks being the underdog and actually at this point having a lower payroll then the sux. maybe king derek underpaid at $15 mill will have to produce this year and same with aj hillbilly burnett and others.

    andy should retire since he does not want to play and begging him to return is not a good idea. hey maybe tex can start hitting 300 again and stop trying to pull every pitch for a homer…………………

    bullis on russel martin.. there is no data to predict what he will do this year, just anothe rhunch from a fan. based on no facts just a feeling or a superstition..

    you know what is going to happen this year in the AL East? I have no friggin idea nad neither does anyone else. I know the experts will tell us after the fact what happened and why it happened but they have no clue either.

  120. 4 NYY December 29th, 2010 at 12:31 pm

    I hope Banuelos or others do well in ST and make the team.

  121. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 12:32 pm

    Chip,

    I’m confident that we won’t start the season with 2 rookies, or Mitre and 1 rookie, in the rotation. Whether it’s Garcia, Francis, or whomever, they are just placeholders. The #5 starter will most likely be Nova, and that’s fine, as that slot should be for those breaking into the rotation.

    It’s been mentioned that it’s the Lee situation that has put us in this predicament, but actually I think it’s AJ’s performance last season that makes this rotation look bad.
    With CC you know what you’re getting.
    We’re all impressed by Hughes, and hope he maintains his level last year, or at least close.
    If AJ were an 18 game winner, none of us would be as concerned, as we’d have 3 solid starters, which is generally what championship caliber teams have. It’s the uncertainty of which AJ we’re going to get which now makes the performance of the #4 pitcher important.

  122. austinmac December 29th, 2010 at 12:33 pm

    LGY,

    I almost forgot you had been appointed leader. Agree or disagree, but don’t think you are a censor. You are not.

    I don’t particularly take strident positions on anything, execpt this.

  123. 4 NYY December 29th, 2010 at 12:33 pm

    stuart a

    you know what is going to happen this year in the AL East? I have no friggin idea nad neither does anyone else. I know the experts will tell us after the fact what happened and why it happened but they have no clue either.

    ——————————————–

    EXACTLY !!!

  124. J. Alfred Prufrock December 29th, 2010 at 12:34 pm

    Banuelos is not making the Yankees.He’s too highend to be rushed to the majors.we will have to wait for ManBan and Betances for a couple of yrs.by the looks of it,they’ll both be worth the wait.

  125. LGY December 29th, 2010 at 12:34 pm

    I forgot to add this to my 12:27 post :mad: :mad: :mad:

  126. MTU December 29th, 2010 at 12:35 pm

    I got an idea.

    Why don’t we just make the pitching mound and home plate area at YS look like the inside of AJ’s barn ?

    That way we’re assured he’ll have a great season.

    :)

  127. Bret The Hitman December 29th, 2010 at 12:35 pm

    Mad Prince,

    I think Russell Martin and Cervelli will perform well enough so that the Yankees will be able to keep Jesus Montero in AAA where he can pad his stats. I’m thinking the Yankees don’t feel his trade value has not peaked enough just yet. KC wanted 3 other top prospects with him for 2 years of Greinke. Just 1 year from now, maybe that same package helps the Yankees net a top notch starter clearly more talented than Greinke.

    The bottom line is, 150 million clues make it obvious they want a #2 long term behind CC.

    Without trading Montero, they’re not getting him.

    Maybe the timing is off right now and waiting will boost Montero’s value. Bringing in Martin, holding Cervelli and not dealing away Romine all serve to buy more time for Montero to pad his stats in AAA.

    I hope he goes on a tear.

    He’s a really essential trade chip to help build the rotation.

  128. blake December 29th, 2010 at 12:36 pm

    LGY,

    did someone steal your calculator?

  129. stuart a December 29th, 2010 at 12:37 pm

    cliff lee got sent to the minors a few years ago after I think winning the cy young. rookies at 21 struggle get sent down and then succeed. a bad stretch of 80 AB’s should not hurt someones value only with the sky is falling undeducated fan base that thinks every game is game 7 of the world series.

    many rookie of the years fizzle out and many rookies that struggle to start become stars, it happens all the time. the dodgers had 4 straight rookies of the years including a OF names mike marshall, none of them amounted to much.. aGAIN YOU CAnnot predict baseball and talent evaluation is very very hard……

    all I have read on Montero from everyone is hitting will not be a problem and he will be a stud hitter, so why trade him……………..if he will be the next edgar martinez, sign me up for about 10 years of that…………..

  130. blake December 29th, 2010 at 12:38 pm

    I hope Montero goes on a tear at Scranton and then comes up to NY and continues that tear.

  131. MTU December 29th, 2010 at 12:38 pm

    Blake-

    No worries. We’ve got the special insurance.

    ;)

  132. LGY December 29th, 2010 at 12:39 pm

    blake,

    They did AND I didn’t get a new one for Christmas!! :mad:

  133. blake December 29th, 2010 at 12:41 pm

    LGY,

    geez….no wonder you’re in a bad mood.

  134. NYYROC December 29th, 2010 at 12:45 pm

    There is a saying about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results = insanity. There is another saying about not learning from mistakes means you will repeat them. No GM gets every move correct but I don’t think Cashman is learning from his past. He brought back Javy. He brought back Nick J (knowing how injury prone he is). How did those work out? Now it appears he may go with 2 unproven SP like he did in 2008. Given all the resources he has at his disposal to build a team, he shouldn’t be in this position again.

  135. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 12:46 pm

    I think Montero is headed for NY as a backup catcher & part-time DH from ST on. That would mean Gary Sanchez is the top trade chip (Montero clone). I also think Cervelli will be traded too after the Yanks see how Montero & Posada look in ST. Joba will be traded if Soriano is signed. Joba, G Sanchez, Cervelli & KB could bring in a quality arm.

  136. G. Love December 29th, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    With the rotation we have in place right now I’d take Kevin Millwood in a second.

    The number of games Millwood didn’t last 5 innings last year? 1

    The number of games AJ didn’t last 5 innings last year? 10

    Millwood’s stats are nothing great, but you have to factor in that he’ll be pitching in the BACK of our rotation with a better bullpen than he had in Baltimore.

    He won’t be facing 1′s and 2′s as he had to in Baltimore. He also will be relieved by a better group of arms and may not stay in games as late as he did in Baltimore.

    You take away Millwood’s games vs. the Yankees and his ERA drops. I guarantee you he pitches better against Baltimore than he did vs. the Yankees.

    To me, he’s a no brainer since I don’t believe for a second that we can fill 2 rotation spots with AAA and AA arms and be competitive. The only people who want to do that are the one’s who want to see this team lose and struggle and see it all torn down just for the sake of saying “we did it with kids”.

    This team doesn’t need to be torn down. It has the pieces to win. It needs a few more. If they don’t get them before the season they’ll get them in the season.

    That said, I’d feel a heckuva lot better knowing we added Millwood and Soriano or Andy and Soriano.

    The team needs starters who can navigate a tough game and give length. Not 2 spots with kids who fall apart in the 2nd and can’t get out of the inning causing the pen to come in too early too often.

  137. stuart a December 29th, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    the problem is all because of hillbilly AJ. if he is a15 game winner with a high 3 low 4 ERA the yanks are OK, but since he sucks it really hurts.

    for once the yankee management got smart and stopped throwing good money at bad or questionable players.

    cliff lee the wise move did not take there money and therefore starting pitching is a problem.

    this will force the yanks to get; younger, smarter, more patient, and use there minor leagues like many fans have been hoping they would for many many years.

    after this year jorge will be gone, the team will be more athletic, younger , and getting cheaper all the time… with about 10 good minor league arms for starters they will need a few to step up. Joba does not deserve to get a chance to start, he cannot even relief at a dominating level for reasons unknown to me…

    I am sure the jeter groupies will say complaining about his performance if it continues to slide is unfair, but when a guy tells you being the highest paid shorstop is fair and he can play 5 more years and he is not affected by fater time it is hard to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. If jeter plays this year like marco scutaro but gets paid better then Hanley Ramirez pointing out the folly of that is not taking away anything from a HOF career just pointing out the stupidity of the contract………..

  138. Bret The Hitman December 29th, 2010 at 12:52 pm

    RayVT,

    What about Russell Martin?

  139. stuart a December 29th, 2010 at 12:53 pm

    bringing back javy and nick johnson were mistakes but minor mistakes. 1 year deals are no big deal if they do not work out but a 5 year deal to a hillbilly named aj is a big deal……………

    gl ove is right, mullwood a flyer at $4 mill for 1 year hell yeah. He stinks so what, he is good and productive huge move. That is what a rationale team does… Cliff Lee 5 or 6 years is to much but first 3 years probably good move, he said no thank you so you do not offer a similar deal to a guy with much less ability…

    freddy garcia a 1 year deal at $3 mill or so and incentives is probably a OK move, he stinks so what cost them $3 mill., those are not catastrophic mistakes.

    Russel Martin I have my doubts but worth the risk based on his contract short duration and low money and allow them not to push Montero to fast. If Montero dominates at AAA bring him up and trade a excess catcher……….

  140. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 12:53 pm

    I believe Albert Pujols came up as a 3B.He was then moved to the OF, and then to 1B.

    If Montero can hit the way they say he can, you keep him, irrespective of his present Catching deficiencies.

  141. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 12:53 pm

    LGY -

    I accept your side of the argument but I don’t think that it’ll be the case.

    The reason why Phelps didn’t come up was possibly because until last year he hadn’t pitched above AA and the Yankees didn’t want to push him too far too fast.

    As for Nova, I can’t answer that – maybe if Ace had been healthy they would have used him, I don’t know.

    I just don’t think Freddie Garcia would stop them from promoting a youngster – and for what it’s worth – if Garcia can put together a season like he has last year – I would take that from the back end of the rotation anyway.

  142. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 12:54 pm

    Ray -

    I think Montero probably goes to Scranton to open the season – but I have no doubt we’ll see him by June.

  143. stuart a December 29th, 2010 at 12:59 pm

    that is right guys like freddy garcia and millwood would not stop the yanks from promoting a young stud if the young guy deserved the chance…

    signing fringe guys for incentive laden deals has little downside. you do this because you cannot lock up the cliff lee’s of the world and therefore you have to be creative but also allow your team the ultimate flexibility in case a young guy develops faster then thought etc….

    giving the Jorge’s of the world addtl years for sentimental reasons hurt more then taking flyers on the Millwoods of the world. Imagine if they did not have Jorges $17 mill on the books this year…………………

    yanks need to have a better bench this year, better pen, and need to diversify there offense else they are in trouble. they need to play better, smarter, and more like a NL team else they will win 82 games.. They need Gardner to continue to improve and run even more then last year, they need grandy to play like he did the 2nd halp, and they need to hit better situationally to have a chance to win 90+.

  144. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    I can’t see Montero getting enough looks behind the plate, and enough time in the lineup to be productive. And if he’s the hitter we all think and have heard he is, he needs to be in a lineup daily.

    I’d agree that after ST, he goes back to AAA.

  145. G. Love December 29th, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    The thing that a lot of you are ignoring is the fact that AJ Burnett did not make it to the 5th inning in 10 of his starts last year.

    Add that to trying to break in rookies into the rotation and you would need a bullpen full of long men since the odds are that the team will be in the pen early and often.

    In 2008 watching Kennedy and Hughes “develop” was painful. The pen was burnt because they’d hit their 100 pitches in the 3-4th inning most nights or get blown out so bad they needed to be rescued.

    Depending on AJ and kids to to make quality starts is folly. It’s the recipe for disaster that only a fool would agree to make.

    You can break in one kid in the 5 hole with AJ in this rotation. Breaking in 2 kids with AJ in the rotation? Dumb.

    Not to mention I don’t see one long man on the Yankee roster other than Mitre who can’t pitch everyday.

    That means you’ll be asking multiple innings from Joba, Logan, Robertsen regularly.

    How do you expect them to be a bridge to Mo in a tight game when they threw 3 innings the night before mopping up for a pitcher who wet the bed on the mound?

    Millwood, Garcia, etc. aren’t luxuries. They are necessities to give this team a chance to stay in it so Cashman can find other pitchers whether they come from within the system or outside of it.

  146. AlbanyYankee December 29th, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    Love the claims on this board. Cliff Lee did not get sent to the minors AFTER winning the Cy Young. Montero won’t be sent to AAA to “pad his stats”. What are the Yankees hoping to do? Get Montero in to the AAA Hall of Fame? C’mon.

  147. Bret The Hitman December 29th, 2010 at 1:01 pm

    If Posada gets injured which is a distinct possibility, I think we definitely see Jesus Montero called up for DH duties and maybe a start at catcher here and there.

    I think Montero’s more insurance for hitting than for catching, thus the Martin signing, thus Cervelli, thus Romine.

  148. West Coast Yankee Fan December 29th, 2010 at 1:01 pm

    The Yankees buy themselves another arbitration free year by not bringing Montero up until after Meorial day. They knew that. They never should have told him he would be competing in ST for a starting job.

  149. West Coast Yankee Fan December 29th, 2010 at 1:01 pm

    sp – Memorial

  150. stuart a December 29th, 2010 at 1:03 pm

    g love with much wisdom today………….

    innings eaters are golden. CC is not a lock down mega stud shutout pitcher but the innings he pitches are so valauble to a team. having guys go 6 per outing is so important to the pen it is scary…….

    matsuzaka is not that good because he throws so many pitches and does not pitch deep into games and therefore shows the middle releif flaws that most pens have……..

  151. Phranchise December 29th, 2010 at 1:05 pm

    Cliff Lee was sent to the minors in 2007. He was 5-8 with a 6.38 era. So when he was 29? But that was well before he won the Cy Young and has had two great years since then and showed promise before hand. The only thing I could see holding him back is injury like the bad back he had last year for a brief period of time. He was not very good during that time. Unfortunately for me I had Cliff Lee on my fantasy team in 2007 thinking he would be good. He’s now hosed me twice by not coming here!

  152. stuart a December 29th, 2010 at 1:05 pm

    I said I thought Lee got sent down after the CY Young but maybe it was the year before… I did not look it up but the point is guys develop, slip on occassion and then some of them figure it out.

    Read my post did not say he got sent down after the CY young but thought he may have. GOt the years wrong I guess, not exactly watching Cleveland on a daily basis….

    I know DOc Holliday got sent down early in his career after some succes at the big club so my point is still valid……

  153. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 1:08 pm

    Bret The Hitman December 29th, 2010 at 1:01 pm
    If Posada gets injured which is a distinct possibility, I think we definitely see Jesus Montero called up for DH duties and maybe a start at catcher here and there.

    I think Montero’s more insurance for hitting than for catching, thus the Martin signing, thus Cervelli, thus Romine.

    ———————-

    Odds of Posada getting hurt dropped considerably when Martin was signed. That signing was the final nail in the coffin for Jorge’s catching days with the Yankees.

    The injuries that hampered Posada last year, concussion, broken foot…were sustained while he was behind the plate. I think as a full time DH not only will Jorge play 144 games but his productivity will be much better as well.

    (I know someone will show that he’s got bad stats as a DH, but keep in mind that when he DHed he usually did so because he was fighting some nagging injury)

  154. Bret The Hitman December 29th, 2010 at 1:10 pm

    Chip,

    Catcher or not, Posada’s still 40 my friend.

  155. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 1:11 pm

    Much like Halladay – Lee was sent down to redo his mechanics. And in both cases it worked quite well.

    I wish upon wish that Joba had some options left so that he could start this year in the minors to get his head on straight.

    Maybe he can get “hurt” during spring training and be left at extended spring.

  156. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 1:12 pm

    Bret The Hitman December 29th, 2010 at 1:10 pm
    Chip,

    Catcher or not, Posada’s still 40 my friend.

    ———————-

    No doubt – but if you look at his injury history none of it was stuff that you suffer from age – back problems, knee problems…it was taking abuse. That’s going to be lessened by never having to put on catcher’s gear again.

  157. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 1:13 pm

    …and by the way…I know that my hope for Joba isn’t happening so I don’t need a hundred people telling me it’s not happening.

    He’s going to float along for the next little while; either get included in a trade for someone else’s former prospect who busted out – or he’ll be non-tendered in a couple of years.

  158. LGY December 29th, 2010 at 1:15 pm

    “You take away Millwood’s games vs. the Yankees and his ERA drops. I guarantee you he pitches better against Baltimore than he did vs. the Yankees.”

    ——————-

    If you take out Millwood’s starts vs the Yankees his ERA drops from 5.10 to 5.01.

  159. Bret The Hitman December 29th, 2010 at 1:16 pm

    Let me put it this way, you won’t see Montero oust Russell Martin and Francisco Cervelli from the starting and backup catcher positions in 2011.

    His best chance at AB’s is injury to Posada at DH with an occasional start at catcher here and there.

    The Yankees spent (possibly) 5 million on Martin, kept Cervelli and kept Romine.

    They really don’t seem to feel as bullish about Montero catching in 2011 as fans are.

  160. LGY December 29th, 2010 at 1:17 pm

    Fangraphs WAR 2010:

    Burnett: 1.3
    Millwood: 1.3

    Baseball Reference WAR 2010:

    Burnett: -0.1
    Millwood: 0.5

  161. Phranchise December 29th, 2010 at 1:17 pm

    I honestly thought Joba would be a good starter and still do. As stated probably not here. All you have to do is look at some of the best pitchers in the game early in their careers to see how power pitchers develop. Many have issues with control and going deep into games especially as pitch counts are eleviated. The biggest thing with him though has only been he is a two pitch pitcher right now and he certainly didn’t have great composure out there. He seems to only be able to focus for short periods of time and doesn’t grind it out. We have seen how AJ seems to lose sight or focus. All you have to look at is his mound demenour between him and Hughes to see how much more you can see Phil is a starter even after his success in the pen.

  162. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 1:18 pm

    Bret The Hitman December 29th, 2010 at 1:16 pm
    Let me put it this way, you won’t see Montero oust Russell Martin and Francisco Cervelli from the starting and backup catcher positions in 2011.

    His best chance at AB’s is injury to Posada at DH with an occasional start at catcher here and there.

    The Yankees spent (possibly) 5 million on Martin, kept Cervelli and kept Romine.

    They really don’t seem to feel as bullish about Montero catching in 2011 as fans are.
    ———————-

    I think that if Montero is playing well at Scranton come June/July they’ll call him up, send Cervelli to AAA and find about 60 or so games for Montero between then and the end of the season.

    In part it will keep Martin fresh for a potential playoff run, and it will allow Montero to work in slowly.

  163. Bret The Hitman December 29th, 2010 at 1:22 pm

    I think it’s far more likely that Posada goes on the DL at some point than Montero gets 60 games behind the plate in NY in 2011.

  164. YankeesNmore December 29th, 2010 at 1:26 pm

    Anybody who can’t recognize the fact that Jeter’s bat speed is COMPLETELY gone has no idea what they’re watching.

    By the middle of the season last year, pitchers were consistently knocking the bat right out of Jeter’s hands with fastball after fastball after fastball… NO regular in the Yankees lineup got attacked in the zone as aggressively as Jeter did last season, and he could do NOTHING.

    Jeter has NO range, he has NO bat speed (and thus, NO power), and he has a mediocre arm.

    The Yankees should have been THRILLED that his contract expired when it did. Instead, they gave him $56 million! Ridiculous.

  165. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 1:28 pm

    Phranchise December 29th, 2010 at 1:17 pm
    I honestly thought Joba would be a good starter and still do. As stated probably not here. All you have to do is look at some of the best pitchers in the game early in their careers to see how power pitchers develop. Many have issues with control and going deep into games especially as pitch counts are eleviated. The biggest thing with him though has only been he is a two pitch pitcher right now and he certainly didn’t have great composure out there. He seems to only be able to focus for short periods of time and doesn’t grind it out. We have seen how AJ seems to lose sight or focus. All you have to look at is his mound demenour between him and Hughes to see how much more you can see Phil is a starter even after his success in the pen.

    —————————-

    Actually the biggest thing with Joba seems to be his work ethic – or rather lack there of.

    Last year when he was supposed to come in and compete for a starting spot with Hughes Joba showed up more than 20lbs overweight.

    This summer he seemed to take it in stride as he went from being the 8th inning pitcher to the 7th inning pitcher to sharing time in the 6th inning.

    If it were me, and I’ve said this many times, I would have called up Girardi and Rothschild and asked what I needed to work on? I would have said, I know there are openings in the rotation – I want one; and then worked my tail off and come into camp in the best shape of my life and fought for one. I would have made it impossible for Girardi and Cash to say “no, Joba’s a reliever.”

    At his best, Joba is vastly more talented than Nova, Noesi, Phelps, Warren – he’s easily got talent to be on the level with Brackman, Manny B and Betances – but he’s just not tapping into it anymore, he’s completely wasting it.

  166. LGY December 29th, 2010 at 1:34 pm

    If the Yankees are going to sign a FA SP, I would sign Francis.

  167. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 1:35 pm

    I wish upon wish that Joba had some options left so that he could start this year in the minors to get his head on straight.

    Joba does have options. There is just a mystery waiver rule regarding being optioned 3 years after your MLB debut requiring a pass through revocable waivers that I have yet to find in the MLB rules or CBA so I am unsure of its veracity.

    Joba has every one of his options left. All 3!

    All of you are missing this very important fact: If the Yankees sign Freddy Garcia, it will make it that much easier to acquire Felix Hernandez, who only wishes to follow his hero.

  168. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 1:36 pm

    If the Yankees are going to sign a FA SP, I would sign Francis.

    They should grab Capuano AND Francis.

  169. LGY December 29th, 2010 at 1:39 pm

    They should grab Capuano AND Francis.

    ******

    Sounds good to me.

  170. blake December 29th, 2010 at 1:40 pm

    Francis hasn’t had an ERA under 4 ever and hasn’t pitched a full season since 2007….I don’t know how his current stuff would translate to the AL east though Coors is no.cake walk either….he is left handed, 29, and possibly could still have some upside. As a flyer pick up it wouldn’t be too bad I guess…….

  171. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 1:41 pm

    Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 1:35 pm
    I wish upon wish that Joba had some options left so that he could start this year in the minors to get his head on straight.

    Joba does have options. There is just a mystery waiver rule regarding being optioned 3 years after your MLB debut requiring a pass through revocable waivers that I have yet to find in the MLB rules or CBA so I am unsure of its veracity.

    Joba has every one of his options left. All 3!

    All of you are missing this very important fact: If the Yankees sign Freddy Garcia, it will make it that much easier to acquire Felix Hernandez, who only wishes to follow his hero.

    —————————–

    Well if Joba Chamberlain can be sent to the minor leagues then I immediately send him there.

    I get it through his head that the only way he’s seeing New York again is if he works like he did in 07 and what’s more I get him back in the starting rotation.

  172. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 1:43 pm

    I have no problem with Capuano – I just don’t know if he’s a starter anymore.

  173. YankeesNmore December 29th, 2010 at 1:44 pm

    Joba Chamberlain stopped being a consistently overpowering pitcher the moment he tore up his shoulder in Texas a few years ago.

    You can draw the line right there… He has not been the same sense… Honestly, how much longer do we need to see it before we realize that pitcher ain’t ever coming back?

  174. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 1:46 pm

    Joba acts as if he’s made it, when in reality he hasn’t. He’s underachieved significantly.

    On the arbitration front, I’d keep an eye on the following names:

    David Aardsma
    Carlos Marmol
    Sean Marshall

  175. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 1:48 pm

    I have no problem with Capuano – I just don’t know if he’s a starter anymore.

    Coming back from surgery, look at his September. He ripped off 4 straight starts with a 2.38 ERA, 5 IP, 6 IP, 6 Ip, 6.1 IP. He doesn’t have overpowering stuff, but he has a very good change up and from the swings he gets on his fastball he must hide the ball well.

    He also wants to be a starter, so perhaps there is motivation there. Maybe he will sign for 1 year with the Yankees to build his value for next year.

  176. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 1:49 pm

    Joba might not be the overpowering beast, but his fastball velocity as a starter was still in the upper half of right handed pitchers in the game.

  177. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 1:50 pm

    DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 1:46 pm
    Joba acts as if he’s made it, when in reality he hasn’t. He’s underachieved significantly.

    On the arbitration front, I’d keep an eye on the following names:

    David Aardsma
    Carlos Marmol
    Sean Marshall

    ——————-

    I think you can cross Marmol off the list (though I know Bret will be upset by that) Marshall I love, Aardsma for the right price would be nice.

  178. austinmac December 29th, 2010 at 1:50 pm

    I’m not sure the” he was about as good as Burnett” argument is that appealing. That’s what I would be afraid of.

    I wish I knew where the reliable, above average pitcher will come from, but come he must.

  179. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 1:50 pm

    6 closers left on FA market: Fuentes, Gregg, Hoffman, Qualls, Rauch, Soriano

  180. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 1:51 pm

    Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 1:49 pm
    Joba might not be the overpowering beast, but his fastball velocity as a starter was still in the upper half of right handed pitchers in the game.

    ————-

    YankeesNmore is a troll – don’t enduldge him.

  181. stuart a December 29th, 2010 at 1:52 pm

    capuana stinks big time…

    so bret the hitman likes that great backstop francisco cervelli. the 19 error cervelli, who has as much pop a dwayne tolleson..

    shrewd talent evaluator brett is… cervelli if he cannot field well offers nothing.

  182. YankeesNmore December 29th, 2010 at 1:53 pm

    Joba’s fastball velocity as a starter post shoulder injury is 89-90. As a reliever, it’s better, but still WILDLY inconsistent.

  183. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 1:54 pm

    Chip December 29th, 2010 at 1:50 pm
    DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 1:46 pm
    Joba acts as if he’s made it, when in reality he hasn’t. He’s underachieved significantly.

    On the arbitration front, I’d keep an eye on the following names:

    David Aardsma
    Carlos Marmol
    Sean Marshall
    ——————-
    I think you can cross Marmol off the list (though I know Bret will be upset by that) Marshall I love, Aardsma for the right price would be nice.
    ————————————–
    Yes, Bret understandably has a man-crush on Marmol.
    Marshall would be a perfect addition, but he’s relatively affordable so the cubbies probably will keep him.
    Aardsma is already on the block. Jack Z is taking orders.

  184. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 1:54 pm

    Joba’s fastball velocity as a starter post shoulder injury is 89-90. As a reliever, it’s better, but still WILDLY inconsistent.

    His average velocity was 92.5 with a high of 97 in 2009. He generally sat around 92-93 and touched 95-96 in starts.

  185. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 1:55 pm

    YankeesNmore is a troll – don’t enduldge him.

    Unfortunately one thing I cannot abide is people posting untrue ‘facts’ (I sometimes let untrue opinions slide.)

  186. YankeesNmore December 29th, 2010 at 1:56 pm

    Apparently anybody who isn’t pissing-their-pants excited about every single thing the Yankees do is a “troll.”

    I did not know that… I thought that made you a blind homer.

  187. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 1:58 pm

    capuana stinks big time…

    Capuano could be useful. He is 1 injury plagued season away from back to back years with a 4 ERA and 440 innings pitched. His stuff is back if september is any indication. He strikes out enough guys, he doesn’t walk a lot of guys. He gets a lot of ground balls and infield fly balls thanks to his change up. He kills lefties and is good enough vs righties.

  188. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 1:59 pm

    DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 1:54 pm
    Chip December 29th, 2010 at 1:50 pm
    DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 1:46 pm
    Joba acts as if he’s made it, when in reality he hasn’t. He’s underachieved significantly.

    On the arbitration front, I’d keep an eye on the following names:

    David Aardsma
    Carlos Marmol
    Sean Marshall
    ——————-
    I think you can cross Marmol off the list (though I know Bret will be upset by that) Marshall I love, Aardsma for the right price would be nice.
    ————————————–
    Yes, Bret understandably has a man-crush on Marmol.
    Marshall would be a perfect addition, but he’s relatively affordable so the cubbies probably will keep him.
    Aardsma is already on the block. Jack Z is taking orders.

    —————–

    The price is going to have to come down a lot on Aardsma for me to be interested – and I wonder how anxious the Yankees are to deal with the Mariners again after the Lee non-deal.

  189. 108 stitches December 29th, 2010 at 2:00 pm

    Anybody know the skinny on Chamberlain ? Is he fit and trim ? Is he ready to pounce on the chance to be a starter again ? The EIG ?
    Will he report with the early arrivals in Tampa ?

  190. blake December 29th, 2010 at 2:01 pm

    Capuano used to be pretty good but he went to Duke so pass…..

  191. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 2:05 pm

    Bret The Hitman December 29th, 2010 at 12:52 pm
    RayVT,

    What about Russell Martin?

    I think Martin can give the Yanks 80 games behind the dish. I am not a big fan of his, but I hope he does great. I expect Montero to catch 50 games & Posada all of Andy’s games or about 30. There is no reason to have Cervelli IMO, as he can’t catch, throw or hit! Montero will instantly do better than Cervelli.

    Martin’s defense is better than any Yankee catcher right now & that should help as well. I expect Romine to fill Martin’s spot perhaps as early as next year (2012) but more likely 2013 with some playing time in 2012.

  192. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 2:05 pm

    Favre fined $50K.

    The league said Commissioner Roger Goodell “could not conclude” that Favre violated the league’s personal conduct policy based on the evidence currently available to him.

  193. YankeesNmore December 29th, 2010 at 2:06 pm

    Joba Chamberlain has worked two seasons as a fulltime reliever in the majors… 2007 (before his August, 2008 shoulder injury) and 2010 (obviously, after the shoulder injury.

    2007 avg fb velocity – 97.4.

    2010 avg fb velocity – 94.6.

    Facts

    http://www.fangraphs.com/pitch.....position=P

  194. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 2:06 pm

    108 stitches December 29th, 2010 at 2:00 pm
    Anybody know the skinny on Chamberlain ? Is he fit and trim ? Is he ready to pounce on the chance to be a starter again ? The EIG ?
    Will he report with the early arrivals in Tampa ?

    ————–

    Not sure “skinny” and “Chamberlain” belong in the same sentance.

    There was a report on him earlier this winter that he’s not looking to be in the best of shape. Maybe he shocks us and shows up looking like the New Brian Bruney instead of like the Old Brian Bruney – but I’m not holding my breath on it.

  195. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 2:07 pm

    No one is debating that Joba’s velocity is not where it once was, but it is still good for a starter and for a reliever. And not 89-90.

  196. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 2:08 pm

    I still think Cervelli can be a better-than-average hitting/running, good defensive backup catcher. Last year was a bad year, I agree, but he’s a young catcher who was considered a defensive specialist when in the minors. I don’t think we’ve seen his upside, and I don’t think we will as a Yankee because he’s most likely going to be traded.

  197. disco stu December 29th, 2010 at 2:09 pm

    The Yankees certainly didnt do Joba any favors by switching him back and forth between the bullpen and the rotation. But I am sorry, this notion that certain people think that the Yankees “ruined” him because of this is ridiculous.

    First of all, he was starter throughout college and thru the minors – he knew how to pace himself over 6-7 innnings insted of emptying the tank for just 1 inning of relief. So this assumed loss of aggressiveness from the Yankees putting him in the rotation in ’08 and ’09 I dont buy.

    I think the biggest problem with Joba is that he had a tremendous amount of early success in ’07 and like many before him, was unable to successfully adjust on his end once the book was out on how he pitched. Basically, Joba dominated hitters because of that slider he threw when he was ahead in the count – nowadays, hitters know to lay off it and Joba has been unable to find another “out pitch”.

    I think he has a level of immaturity that he has not been able to shake and he still acts suprised when he doesnt have the success he believes should come natural to him. Until Joba grows up and realizes that there needs to be another way to be successful, he will fall into that long line of flash in the pans that flamed out as quickly as they arrived.

  198. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 2:11 pm

    Chip December 29th, 2010 at 12:54 pm
    Ray -

    I think Montero probably goes to Scranton to open the season ? but I have no doubt we?ll see him by June.

    You may be right Chip! I just think Montero’s bat will speak very loud in ST and will push his status on the Yanks from ST thru the whole year. He is a beast with a bat! Yanks need his bat.

    I believe Andy comes back & he & Posada will remain battery mates. Montero could easily get 50 games behind the plate & another 50 as a DH. Martin would be primary Cacther for 80 games plus some defensive replacements. Posada will most likely get 30 games behind the dish & another 80 or so as a DH plus be the #3 emergency catcher as well for PR & PH opportunities.

  199. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 2:11 pm

    DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 2:08 pm
    I still think Cervelli can be a better-than-average hitting/running, good defensive backup catcher. Last year was a bad year, I agree, but he’s a young catcher who was considered a defensive specialist when in the minors. I don’t think we’ve seen his upside, and I don’t think we will as a Yankee because he’s most likely going to be traded.

    ——————

    Not sure what trade value Cervelli has. I think we’re more likely to see him sent to the minors as an emergency catcher when Montero finally comes up.

  200. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 2:14 pm

    Cervelli has trade value. He has been in rumors since coming to the majors. Its obviously not great, but considering how much value I think Cervelli has for the yankees right now I think his trade value is considered a plus relatively.

    He is young, has a history of good contact and discipline as a hitter, and is supposed to be a plus defensively.

    Teams will be all over that. Worse catchers than Cervelli have remained in this league for a long long time.

  201. Mell December 29th, 2010 at 2:14 pm

    “Not sure what trade value Cervelli has”

    Pretty minimal. Back up catchers who can’t hit aren’t all that difficult to find.

  202. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 2:14 pm

    RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 2:11 pm
    Chip December 29th, 2010 at 12:54 pm
    Ray -

    I think Montero probably goes to Scranton to open the season ? but I have no doubt we?ll see him by June.

    You may be right Chip! I just think Montero’s bat will speak very loud in ST and will push his status on the Yanks from ST thru the whole year. He is a beast with a bat! Yanks need his bat.

    I believe Andy comes back & he & Posada will remain battery mates. Montero could easily get 50 games behind the plate & another 50 as a DH. Martin would be primary Cacther for 80 games plus some defensive replacements. Posada will most likely get 30 games behind the dish & another 80 or so as a DH plus be the #3 emergency catcher as well for PR & PH opportunities.

    ————————————-

    The problem is that the Yankees don’t have a spot for his bat just now. With a healthy Posada and Martin both of Montero’s landing spots are spoken for right now. And I don’t think the Yankees are going to bring him north to serve as a pinch hitter.

    I think they’ll let him go to Scranton, play everyday, get in a groove and then they’ll call him up and work him into the rotation with Martin.

    As for Posada catching Andy – I just don’t see it – I think the only time Posada catches is when he’s on the receiving end of a ceremonial first pitch.

  203. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 2:15 pm

    I could see Cervelli going for a good reliever (not Thornton/Soriano types), an outfielder like Kearns, maybe as part of a deal for a mediocre starter.

    Think of the possibilities!!

  204. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 2:16 pm

    Pretty minimal. Back up catchers who can’t hit aren’t all that difficult to find.

    He has hit .298 and .271 in back to back seasons, just gotta get some schmuck like Dayton Moore in on that.

    I wonder if they could include him as a piece in a deal for Billingsley.

  205. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 2:18 pm

    Personally I’d like to see Joba as the #5 SP. If not, I’d like to see them trade him. Soriano is almost a must get IMO as he fills the Wood role that is needed & secures the CL role for Mo as well.

    The Yanks need to build the team to get in the playoffs & have them rested & peaked for the playoffs. I think Laird/Nunez/Montero/Golson are good enough to start the season as a bench.

    Adding Soriano would move the Logan/Robertson (Joba) to the 6th/7th slot which would be very nice.

  206. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 2:20 pm

    Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
    Pretty minimal. Back up catchers who can’t hit aren’t all that difficult to find.

    He has hit .298 and .271 in back to back seasons, just gotta get some schmuck like Dayton Moore in on that.

    I wonder if they could include him as a piece in a deal for Billingsley.

    —————

    do you mean as a throw in or build the deal around Cervelli?

    As a throw in I think the Dodgers would gladly take Cervelli – but they wouldn’t take a package with Cervelli as the main cog for Billingsley by any stretch.

    I think to get Chad you’re looking at a deal that includes some pretty strong prospects like Nunez, Laird, Phelps or Warren.

  207. upstate kate December 29th, 2010 at 2:20 pm

    Jerkface
    lets not forget Cervelli’s mesmerizing dreamy eyes!!!
    sorry, couldn’t resist, everyone seems so grumpy.
    It is 2 and a half months until ST, too early to call the season over.

  208. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 2:20 pm

    do you mean as a throw in or build the deal around Cervelli?

    As a throw in, but one that might mitigate loss of prospects on New Yorks side.

  209. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 2:22 pm

    Chip December 29th, 2010 at 2:14 pm

    Posada will catch Andy because they click & Andy’s pickoff move negates Posada’s arm. Martin can’t catch 100 games after all his injuries. Cervelli is a liability back there. I think Montero will be catching 50+ games in 2011.

  210. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 2:23 pm

    Here is a USS Mariner article which touches on Capuano’s splits vs lefties and righties. He gives up a lot of fly balls to righties, and really limits them vs lefties. That is perfect for Yankee Stadium (well not perfect, but as good as you’re gonna get for a guy like him).

    http://www.ussmariner.com/2010.....on-option/

  211. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 2:24 pm

    Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 2:16 pm

    Cervelli hits well enough for a good defensive catcher, but he isn’t a good defensive catcher. He doesn’t hit enough for a weak defensive catcher. He may have some value to a weaker team & perhaps an NL team.

  212. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 2:25 pm

    # RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 2:22 pm

    Chip December 29th, 2010 at 2:14 pm

    Posada will catch Andy because they click & Andy’s pickoff move negates Posada’s arm. Martin can’t catch 100 games after all his injuries. Cervelli is a liability back there. I think Montero will be catching 50+ games in 2011.
    ——————————————————-
    missed it ..did they sign Andy

  213. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 2:25 pm

    The Yanks need to build the team to get in the playoffs & have them rested & peaked for the playoffs. I think Laird/Nunez/Montero/Golson are good enough to start the season as a bench.
    —————————————

    I agree. Would only substitute Cervelli for Montero, as I’d want Montero to start the season playing every day in AAA.

    I’ll take Soriano, or Rauch AND either Fuentes OR Ohman.

  214. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 2:26 pm

    Cervelli hits well enough for a good defensive catcher, but he isn’t a good defensive catcher. He doesn’t hit enough for a weak defensive catcher. He may have some value to a weaker team & perhaps an NL team.

    He was a good defensive catcher in the minors and in 2009. One year doesn’t change his entire career outlook. I, personally, would not trust him as a starting catcher behind the plate but he has skills.

  215. mick December 29th, 2010 at 2:27 pm

    missed it ..did they sign Andy
    =====================
    On New Years Day

  216. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 2:27 pm

    Cervelli stinks and shouldn’t be on this teams roster

  217. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 2:27 pm

    joeman December 29th, 2010 at 2:25 pm

    LOL! Not yet! I expect AP to come back though. One more run with Mo, Po, & DJ. Posada will most likely be a Met come 2012. I think AP will feel better come mid Jan 2011 & sign.

  218. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 2:29 pm

    # mick December 29th, 2010 at 2:27 pm

    missed it ..did they sign Andy
    =====================
    On New Years Day
    ———————————————————————
    I would be very surprised if Andy comes back and plays

  219. mick December 29th, 2010 at 2:30 pm

    I would be very surprised if Andy comes back and plays
    ———————–
    why is that?

  220. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 2:30 pm

    DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 2:25 pm

    You may be right, but I just don’t see anyone better than Montero to keep him in AAA in 2011. With Pena/Girardi/Posada/Martin to tutor him I think he learns & plays much better in MLB in 2011 from the start. (Now if he bombs in ST then he will go to AAA, but I don’t expect that.)

  221. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 2:31 pm

    Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 2:26 pm

    I saw 2 years of him in NY & that was at least 1 year too many.

  222. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 2:31 pm

    Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 2:20 pm
    do you mean as a throw in or build the deal around Cervelli?

    As a throw in, but one that might mitigate loss of prospects on New Yorks side.

    ———————-

    eh, I don’t see it. It’s possible, but I don’t see it.

  223. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 2:32 pm

    In 2009 Cervelli threw out 10 out of 23 base stealers, thats 43%.
    Last year, that caught stealing rate dropped to 14%.
    He’s got to be somewhere in between.

  224. Mell December 29th, 2010 at 2:32 pm

    “Cervelli stinks and shouldn’t be on this teams roster”

    Wouldn’t go so far as that. He’s a garden variety back up guy. Can be helpful at times and doesn’t hurt you………unless you have to use him a lot….like last year. Definitely don’t mind keeping him around ICOE, but I don’t see him bringing anything of value back in trade.

  225. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 2:33 pm

    Posada related question:

    If Jorge has a good year at DH and decides that he wants to play for another year or two; and the Red Sox offer him a contract – do the Yankees match just to keep a “true Yankee” from going to Boston or do they let him go?

    My opinion – they should let him go.

  226. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 2:35 pm

    Does anyone know Montero’s defensive stats in the minors offhand?
    Will he be our Varitek defensively?

  227. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 2:36 pm

    I think the best you can hope for with a cervelli trade is a middle reliever – not a back end guy but a 6th 7th inning type.

  228. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 2:36 pm

    I think Posada will go to the Mets as Ray says, before he goes to boston. But then again, boston has a habit of signing defensively challenged catchers.

  229. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 2:36 pm

    DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 2:32 pm

    Cervelli doesn’t give a good target and is quite impatient behind the plate. I believe he played better in 2009 with the Yanks because he was new & tried to fit in more. He got exposed in 2010. He doesn’t have the best judgement behind the plate either. His arm is average at best, but his jumping bean like activity behind the plate is a time killer on his throws and his lack of a target for the pitchers.

  230. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 2:36 pm

    I think him getting hurt last year and taking so long to recover took a lot out of him, and at this age do I really want to go thru it again… him going thru a whole year without getting some kind of injury will be tough to do. shut it down and will retire

  231. mick December 29th, 2010 at 2:39 pm

    joeman-can’t see him turning down big money unless yanks are lowballing him….let’s say they offered 12 and he wants 16, that should be an easy fix.

  232. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 2:40 pm

    DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 2:35 pm

    Montero has the tools to be a very good catcher. He is mamothly big & some folks worry about his knees longterm behind the plate and also about his ability to block pitches. He has a quick release and a strong arm to go with a terrific bat! He is Piazza with an arm!

  233. Mell December 29th, 2010 at 2:40 pm

    “Does anyone know Montero’s defensive stats in the minors offhand?”

    23% caught stealing

    Passed balls are sort of high, but not necessarily ridiculously so.

  234. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 2:41 pm

    The Yanks won 95 games last year with Posada and Cervelli behind the plate.

    I still don’t see why, if Montero is close, they couldn’t have stretched it another year with Posada at C, signed someone like Thome for DH, bridged the Super 2 issue with Cervelli and brought up Montero in July to share catching with Jorge.

    If the answer is Posada can’t catch, what’s different between 2010 and 2011?

  235. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 2:41 pm

    DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 2:35 pm

    Does anyone know Montero’s defensive stats in the minors offhand?
    ——————————————————————————————————–
    His current catching ability is way behind his offensive game. His thick build doesn’t provide much agility and he doesn’t have good foot work. He’ll most likely grow more which would most likely mean a move to first base, third base or a corner outfield spot.
    most scouts say the same thing…….

  236. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 2:43 pm

    Poll:

    Who would you rather have catching:

    Cervelli or Salty?
    Cervelli or Matt Weiters?
    Cervelli or Craig Tatum?
    Cervelli or Jon Jaso
    Cervelli or Kelly Shoppach?
    Cervelli or Jose Molina?
    Cervelli or J. Arencibia?

  237. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 2:45 pm

    Cervelli was the 19th best catcher last year by OPS, 7th if you go by on base. His value is somewhere between B prospect and 0.

  238. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 2:46 pm

    DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 2:35 pm

    I have a friend I trust who saw Montero catch and he is more than adequate & IMO better than Cervelli now. Plus did I say he can hit! I saw him personally hit in BP in 2009 in Tampa & I as everyone else were in awe of his power.

    He is still very young & will make mistakes, but his upside so overwhelms his weaknesses that he has to play in 2010 behind the dish.

    If you see that most starting catchers don’t play 100 games, then there are at least 60 games for another catcher. With Martin having some real injuries issues the last couple of years, he may be limited to 80 or so starts. That leaves 80 for Posada/Montero & Cervelli. I don’t expect Cervelli to be on the Yanks MLB roster. I think he has options to go to AAA so that may be where he goes if not traded.

  239. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    # mick December 29th, 2010 at 2:39 pm

    joeman-can’t see him turning down big money unless yanks are lowballing him….let’s say they offered 12 and he wants 16, that should be an easy fix.
    ——————————————————-

    12 is what he made last year if the offer 15-16 it sure would be hard to turn down I would think … but leaving money on the table has been done before….he’s doesn’t have anything to prove ..won championships and has his health, enjoy life spend money and be with family

  240. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    Thanks Ray & Joeman.

    While Cervelli clearly may be no star, he seems to be better than most of the other catchers in the AL East. He won’t fetch top quality in a trade, but I think Chip is right in that he should be able to get a middle reliever or be a piece in a trade for someone like a David Aardsma.

  241. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 2:49 pm

    Cervelli or Matt Weiters?
    ———————————————
    no way compare these two…in a year or two MW will be a top 10 catcher in the game

  242. Mell December 29th, 2010 at 2:49 pm

    “but I think Chip is right in that he should be able to get a middle reliever”

    Might get you a Manny Delcarmen type even up.

  243. mick December 29th, 2010 at 2:50 pm

    Why are the Yanks picked on for the slow pace of this offseason?
    I don’t see many other moves being made with the same FA’s out there from day to day.
    Are they all waiting on Andy?

  244. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 2:50 pm

    Before I get jumped on, let me say he’s no Matt Weiters overall, and not better defensively than Jose Molina, but he has value as a backup, and therefore should/could be traded for a usable major-league piece. I believe he almost was traded to LA for Martin, before the Yankees pulled the offer when they realized they could just sign Martin directly.

  245. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 2:51 pm

    Wieters is a cautionary tale. He dominated the minors but has struggled at the major league level.

  246. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 2:52 pm

    Joeman, see, that’s why I followed up with my comment. LOL.

  247. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 2:52 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 2:41 pm

    Posada doesn’t have 80 games behind the plate anymore. He was a physical wreck last year trying to catch too much. Cervelli was exposed having to play so much. Therefore they bring in Martin & have Posada as a emergency catcher & perhaps 1 game a week to catch Andy if he comes back. Catching 1 game a week will keep Posada fresh & still able to catch if needed. Martin will be a defensive guy who can hit some & will catch the bulk of regular season games. Montero will be the BU IMO. Come playoff time, then the trio can be used as needed to put the best option on the field. Three hitting catchers is a plus.

    Also, I think Laird & Nunez will get a lot of playing time to help keep the inf & of fresh as well.

  248. mick December 29th, 2010 at 2:52 pm

    joeman December 29th, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    # mick December 29th, 2010 at 2:39 pm

    joeman-can’t see him turning down big money unless yanks are lowballing him….let’s say they offered 12 and he wants 16, that should be an easy fix.
    ——————————————————-

    12 is what he made last year if the offer 15-16 it sure would be hard to turn down I would think … but leaving money on the table has been done before…
    ========================================
    Why would they pennypinch Andy for a million or 2? Who has left $$$ on the table. Don’t say Lee or Wood as they have other alternatives.

  249. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 2:53 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 2:41 pm
    The Yanks won 95 games last year with Posada and Cervelli behind the plate.

    I still don’t see why, if Montero is close, they couldn’t have stretched it another year with Posada at C, signed someone like Thome for DH, bridged the Super 2 issue with Cervelli and brought up Montero in July to share catching with Jorge.

    If the answer is Posada can’t catch, what’s different between 2010 and 2011?

    ————————-

    Posada’s a year older and the injuries he suffers behind the plate are piling up.

    Russ Martin (who is vastly better defensively) was available

    Francisco Cervelli hit over .300 in May with a .368 OBP. From June to September he wasn’t over .233

    The Yankees don’t think Posada can physically hold up to catching anymore and the injuries he’s suffered over the last couple of years along with his declining production at the plate would indicate that they’re probably right.

    They don’t want to force Montero into a situation where he’s catching 100 games because of his inexperience and they don’t want Cevelli catching much because the more he catches the worse he is – he’s a back up player for a reason – just like you don’t want a Luis Sojo or Miguel Cairo playing everyday you don’t want Cervelli playing every day either.

  250. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 2:53 pm

    Face is right, Baltimore has reportedly been shopping around for a catcher, despite having Weiters, but he is well regarded. Or at least was.

  251. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 2:54 pm

    Mell December 29th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
    “but I think Chip is right in that he should be able to get a middle reliever”

    Might get you a Manny Delcarmen type even up.

    ————-

    If Cashman could get that he would be all over it.

  252. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 2:57 pm

    Wieters is actually bigger than Montero, so we’ll see where he is in 2 years.

  253. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 2:58 pm

    # mick December 29th, 2010 at 2:52 pm

    joeman December 29th, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    # mick December 29th, 2010 at 2:39 pm

    joeman-can’t see him turning down big money unless yanks are lowballing him….let’s say they offered 12 and he wants 16, that should be an easy fix.
    ——————————————————-

    12 is what he made last year if the offer 15-16 it sure would be hard to turn down I would think … but leaving money on the table has been done before…
    ========================================
    Why would they pennypinch Andy for a million or 2? Who has left $$$ on the table. Don’t say Lee or Wood as they have other alternatives.
    —————————————————-
    no not them ….I’m saying some players just walk away from the game and retire

  254. Mell December 29th, 2010 at 2:59 pm

    “Face is right, Baltimore has reportedly been shopping around for a catcher, despite having Weiters, but he is well regarded. Or at least was”

    They were looking for a veteran back up, not a new catcher. Weiters is only 24. They may have been a bit quick bringing him up after less than 700 PA’s in the minors. He’ll be fine. Maybe not an allstar, but a solid everyday regular.

  255. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    RayVT-

    I understand what happened, but you haven’t explained the difference between 2010 and 2011, you’ve just restated what happened.

    The Yanks won 95 games with Posada and Cervelli last year. If Montero is close, why not sign a DH like Thome and bridge the gap with Cervelli until Montero comes up? I repeat, Posada had only 322 PAs as C last year and the Yanks won 95 games.

  256. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 3:02 pm

    They may have been a bit quick bringing him up after less than 700 PA’s in the minors. He’ll be fine. Maybe not an allstar, but a solid everyday regular.

    That’d be a far cry from Wieter’s projections. He is supposed to be Joe Mauer not Rod barajas.

  257. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 3:03 pm

    The Weiters issue is that Peter Angelos is an idiot.

    He gave Weiters such a big contract that he didn’t want him spending time in the minors when he was being paid major league money so he was rushed to the majors.

    They Joba-ed him…except Weiters seems to want to improve so that bodes well. Do I think he’ll be the next Joe Mauer? No. But he won’t be the next Jarrod Saltalamacchia either.

  258. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 3:06 pm

    # Chip December 29th, 2010 at 3:03 pm

    The Weiters issue is that Peter Angelos is an idiot.

    He gave Weiters such a big contract that he didn’t want him spending time in the minors when he was being paid major league money so he was rushed to the majors.

    They Joba-ed him…except Weiters seems to want to improve so that bodes well. Do I think he’ll be the next Joe Mauer? No. But he won’t be the next Jarrod Saltalamacchia either.
    ————————————————————————————————————
    best post of the day I have seen

  259. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 3:07 pm

    He gave Weiters such a big contract that he didn’t want him spending time in the minors when he was being paid major league money so he was rushed to the majors.

    He did not get a major league contract. He did get a 6 million signing bonus, which I suppose is a bundle.

  260. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 3:07 pm

    How about this:

    Joba and Cervelli to Cleveland for Chris Perez

  261. Mell December 29th, 2010 at 3:07 pm

    “That’d be a far cry from Wieter’s projections. He is supposed to be Joe Mauer not Rod barajas”

    That’s the way it goes. Isn’t the first time and won’t be the last.

  262. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 3:08 pm

    The issue with Wieters is that he is a college player and he so thoroughly creamed the minors that performance dictated him getting a major league taste.

  263. Mell December 29th, 2010 at 3:08 pm

    “Joba and Cervelli to Cleveland for Chris Perez”

    What use would Cleveland have for either guy?

  264. Mell December 29th, 2010 at 3:10 pm

    “The issue with Wieters is that he is a college player and he so thoroughly creamed the minors that performance dictated him getting a major league taste”

    Kinda like a rotund hurler from Nebraska we all know.

  265. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 3:10 pm

    Going to say it again…the Yankees and hype screwed up joba…..starting just 15 games in the minors after getting out of school was no nearly enough time to get him ready to pitch in the majors……then back & forth with the SP-RP thing …..messed him up

  266. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    Mell December 29th, 2010 at 3:08 pm
    “Joba and Cervelli to Cleveland for Chris Perez”

    What use would Cleveland have for either guy?

    ————

    None really – I just wonder if the Yankees could get Chris Perez.

    I really don’t know what the value of Joba is anymore so in 50% of the trades I include him in he’s probably undervalued and in the other 50% he’s overvalued.

  267. mick December 29th, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    Has there been a changing of the guard?
    Many of the regulars seem to have been driven to distraction by the group in here now.
    Will they return or will the board remain at peace?
    Tune in For As The Blog Turns.

  268. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    # mick December 29th, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    Has there been a changing of the guard?
    Many of the regulars seem to have been driven to distraction by the group in here now.
    Will they return or will the board remain at peace?
    Tune in For As The Blog Turns.
    ————————————————————-
    peeps that are here now tell it like it is bad or good …….some of the regs want to sugar coat everything

  269. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    joeman December 29th, 2010 at 3:10 pm
    Going to say it again…the Yankees and hype screwed up joba…..starting just 15 games in the minors after getting out of school was no nearly enough time to get him ready to pitch in the majors……then back & forth with the SP-RP thing …..messed him up

    —————-

    Yeah but part of it was also Joba’s fault. He got to the show and stopped working.

    The Yankees didn’t help – by sacrificing games in favor of Joba’s development they helped Joba believe that he was bigger than the team so it got to the point where he figured he just had to show up and if he was a starter – great; if not – well he would be the next closer of the Yankees.

    2 years. That’s the longest I see Joba being with this team going forward.

  270. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    # Chip December 29th, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    Mell December 29th, 2010 at 3:08 pm
    “Joba and Cervelli to Cleveland for Chris Perez”

    What use would Cleveland have for either guy?

    ————

    None really – I just wonder if the Yankees could get Chris Perez.

    I really don’t know what the value of Joba is anymore so in 50% of the trades I include him in he’s probably undervalued and in the other 50% he’s overvalued.
    ———————————–
    LOL!!!!!! try somewhere in the middle

  271. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 3:18 pm

    # Chip December 29th, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    joeman December 29th, 2010 at 3:10 pm
    Going to say it again…the Yankees and hype screwed up joba…..starting just 15 games in the minors after getting out of school was no nearly enough time to get him ready to pitch in the majors……then back & forth with the SP-RP thing …..messed him up

    —————-

    Yeah but part of it was also Joba’s fault. He got to the show and stopped working.

    The Yankees didn’t help – by sacrificing games in favor of Joba’s development they helped Joba believe that he was bigger than the team so it got to the point where he figured he just had to show up and if he was a starter – great; if not – well he would be the next closer of the Yankees.

    2 years. That’s the longest I see Joba being with this team going forward.
    ———————————————————————————-

    I still think he can cut it as a starter, but he’s going to have to be re- programed in the minors ….if he could staying there until June

  272. mick December 29th, 2010 at 3:19 pm

    The Yankees didn’t help – by sacrificing games in favor of Joba’s development they helped Joba believe that he was bigger than the team
    =============================
    Most “phenoms” burn out quickly.
    Other than Fernando-mania that is.

    At the time, I thought it was worth the shot starting him, but looking back I wonder how he would have done if he continued in relief, ironic, but we will never know what his future would have been as a reliever.

  273. mick December 29th, 2010 at 3:21 pm

    I still think he can cut it as a starter, but he’s going to have to be re- programed in the minors ….if he could staying there until June
    =================================
    The damage has been done to Joba.
    We might have to settle for mediocrity, for awhile at least.

  274. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 3:22 pm

    mick December 29th, 2010 at 3:19 pm
    The Yankees didn’t help – by sacrificing games in favor of Joba’s development they helped Joba believe that he was bigger than the team
    =============================
    Most “phenoms” burn out quickly.
    Other than Fernando-mania that is.

    At the time, I thought it was worth the shot starting him, but looking back I wonder how he would have done if he continued in relief, ironic, but we will never know what his future would have been as a reliever.
    ——————-

    I have no problem with the Yankees turning him back into a starter. My problem is the forum in which they chose to do it.

    Joba should have been sent to the minors to be stretched out. No one cares about minor league team wins or losses except really disturbed individuals with far too much time on their hands.

    Instead the Yankees basically threw away real games at the major league level in favor of Joba’s development.

  275. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 3:24 pm

    I wonder if Cervelli and Joba bring back Aardsma?

  276. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 3:26 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    Thome can’t hit LHP & the switch-hitting Posada can. Posada provides some backup in case Martin gets hurt or Montero busts as a catcher. The catching slot is a position where the Yanks have held an advantage over most AL East teams the last several years especially as a run producing slot.

    IMO, the Yanks won last year in spite of Posada/Cervelli. Albeit if Posada were healthy the would have been much better perhaps hitting the 100 win plateau. I agree at 40 Posada can’t be expected to catch 100 games or realistically even 50. But he can catch 30 or so and be prepared to catch more in the playoffs if necessary.

    Cervelli is not an answer to catch more than 30 games. Therefore he would serve the Yanks better in AAA and be an emergency callup if needed or could be used as trade bait. Martin/Montero/Posada & by years end perhaps even Romine can handle the catching duties.

    As a catcher Cervelli does not impress me at all. He literally is a jumping bean behind the plate. That is very distracting to both the ump & pitchers. Plus he thinks more highly of his arm than his results. He is a loose mini-canon behind the plate. One of the reasons he declined in % from 2009 to 2010 is he played more and also more against good running teams in 2010.

    For the one who said the O’s were looking for another catcher, that is to go with Matt Weiters. Every team needs two catchers at least. Buck is probably looking for an advantage in the BU catcher realm over Toronto/RSox/TB.

  277. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 3:27 pm

    DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 3:24 pm
    I wonder if Cervelli and Joba bring back Aardsma?

    —————-

    See, I’m not sure that’s enough return for Joba.

    The fat b@stard has me so confused!

  278. disco stu December 29th, 2010 at 3:29 pm

    Joeman -

    In hindsight, if you want to really get technical the Yankees probably should have never promoted him to MLB in 2007 – as good as he was, he still started that year in Single A Tampa … in retorspect, they should have let him top out at AAA SWB and then start ’08 in AAA with the idea of promoting him to MLB during the year.

    The irony of promoting him in August is that it was less of a necessity than they thought at that time. By the time of his promotion, the Yankees had turned the corner on their season and were well on their way back to the playoffs – their two biggest foes for the WC were Seattle and Detroit and both had begun to fade by Labor Day.

    Joba’s first month with the team was used having him pitch sparingly (“Joba Rules”) and by the time they moved him to the 8th inning in early September, the Yankees had already separated themselves in the WC lead and were on cruise control into October.

    How much would Joba have benefited from a full year in the minors in ’07 and starting there in ’08 – both mentally and physically – we will never know.

  279. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 3:31 pm

    Phenom mania:

    Homer Bailey – Cincinnati
    Jarrod Saltalamacchia – Texas/Boston
    Matt Weiters – Baltimore
    J.P. Arencibia – Toronto

  280. mick December 29th, 2010 at 3:32 pm

    Joba was electric as a reliever.
    I wish he could have stayed there in hindsight. Would have been interesting to see if he could have kept up that pace and eventually been the closer.

  281. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 3:33 pm

    disco stu December 29th, 2010 at 3:29 pm

    Very true!

  282. MoRings42 December 29th, 2010 at 3:33 pm

    Does not spending all of that money mean that they are going to lower ticket prices? no

    so.. Mr, Levine, I see no positives on you not spending money to better the team.

  283. mick December 29th, 2010 at 3:34 pm

    Phenom mania:

    Homer Bailey – Cincinnati
    Jarrod Saltalamacchia – Texas/Boston
    Matt Weiters – Baltimore
    J.P. Arencibia – Toronto
    ======================
    Mark “The Bird” Fidrych
    The guy on the Nats, why do I forget his name?

  284. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 3:35 pm

    I wonder if a 1 yr deal for Beltre could benefit the Yanks?

  285. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 3:35 pm

    Interesting – I wonder how many of these guys actually get to FA

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....eason.html

  286. mick December 29th, 2010 at 3:36 pm

    Where would Beltre play?

  287. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 3:36 pm

    Mick,

    I know what you mean, but Joba still is a reliever, and will have his chance to return to form. Even if he does, he could still be traded if the organization thinks he’ll continue to be inconsistent.

  288. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 3:37 pm

    DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 3:31 pm
    Phenom mania:

    Homer Bailey – Cincinnati
    Jarrod Saltalamacchia – Texas/Boston
    Matt Weiters – Baltimore
    J.P. Arencibia – Toronto

    ————-

    Not fair to put Arencibia in that group – He’s only had 11 major league games in part because Cito Gaston played John Buck down the stretch to help him put together a strong walk year (which he did)

  289. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 3:38 pm

    Ray -

    I was thinking about Beltre but the problem is at that point you’re turning Jorge Posada into a very cranky, very expensive, benchwarmer.

  290. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 3:39 pm

    mick December 29th, 2010 at 3:36 pm
    Where would Beltre play?

    ————–

    3b with A-Rod going to DH.

  291. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 3:39 pm

    Phenom mania which worked out: price, timmy, kershaw, verlander, etc. Depends on the player. I’m not sure arencibia is a phenom tho

  292. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 3:40 pm

    How much would Joba have benefited from a full year in the minors in ’07 and starting there in ’08 – both mentally and physically – we will never know.

    ——————————————————————————————-
    think you would have had a different joba now ..and to the good

  293. mick December 29th, 2010 at 3:41 pm

    The Yanks did the “politically correct” thing by making him a starter.
    I guess they thought they owed it to him and themselves to find out.
    Too bad we will never know if he could have kept up that pace. He was unhittable.
    Never thought making him a starter could make him fail on 2 levels.
    They must have thought he would go back to his dominating self as a reliever if he didn’t make it as a starter.
    Little did they think he was at such a high level that it would be next to impossible to return to that peak. A peak he might have fallen off eventually but we will never know now.

  294. Cashman needs to go December 29th, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    Trying to burn the last 2 hours before I leave work for the rest of the week….

    Anyone interested in playing please respond:

    You are the new yankee GM just handed the job today because cashman couldn’t get the job done this offseason. You are given 35 million dollars to spend (to add to the current “atta baby” 170 million current payroll) and are told you can trade anyone but montero, banuelos and betances (including anyone on the major league roster). You need to find 2 starters, 2 relievers (and are allowed to trade any relievers or starters on the major league roster if you have to), a RH 4th outfield/dh type bat and a player who can play multiple positions in the infield and/or outfield….oh and andy pettite is retiring….

    heres my entry:

    trade joba, nova, noesi and laird for zambrano ask the cubs to pay 5 million dollars (add 1 more AA arm if they are reluctant to pay the 5mill – yankees are paying 13 million)

    trade romine, adams, and warren (or some other AA/AA arm that half way decent) and the max amount of $$ you can send (doesn’t count against the 35 million payroll) for dallas braden

    add nunez to any of the above deals if you have to

    sign rauch for 5 million

    sign fuentes for 7 million

    sign manny ramirez for 7 million plus 3 million in incentives that he won’t be able to achieve

    trade whatever fodder you have to for keppinger

    so the 2 starters i got were:zambrano & braden
    2 relievers: fuentes and rauch
    RH 4th OF/DH – Manny
    Infield/Outfield bench player – keppinger

    amd i spent 32 million of the 35 million allowed

    starting rotation:

    CC
    Zambrano
    Hughes
    Braden
    Burnett

    Relievers:
    Rivera
    Rauch
    Fuentes
    Robertson
    Feliciano
    Logan
    Mitre

    Bench:
    Montero
    Ramirez
    Keppinger
    and whomever is left to fill in the gaps (nunez, pena, cervelli etc)

    thats my 2011 team…

  295. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    Chip December 29th, 2010 at 3:38 pm

    Yeah! I guess you could allow Posada to catch some more games & have ARod as the DH & let Beltre play 3B. I wonder if ARod would be open to playing RF or LF some.

  296. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 3:43 pm

    # RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 3:35 pm

    I wonder if a 1 yr deal for Beltre could benefit the Yanks?
    ———————————————–
    besides Jorge clogging up the bases he’s clogging up the roster……done with him also, he can hit, but can’t run or throw or catch…

  297. mick December 29th, 2010 at 3:43 pm

    3b with A-Rod going to DH.
    ====================
    Let Beltre get a 1 year deal again and do his walk-off into 3B next year with us.

  298. West Coast Yankee Fan December 29th, 2010 at 3:44 pm

    Just my theory.

    I think the Joba thing is perhaps over-analyzed. It’s possible that the shoulder injury simply had a chronic effect on his physiology and he just cannot sustain throwing more than 91 for multiple innings as a starter. Without great command, this just won’t cut it.

    I suspect this might be the case and that the Yankees know this internally.

  299. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 3:44 pm

    Chip December 29th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
    Interesting – I wonder how many of these guys actually get to FA

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/…..eason.html

    ———————————————-
    Chip,

    I think it possible that the Yankees would consider making a move at David Wright and moving ARod to DH permanently in 2012. Can’t see the Met’s signing him to a bigger contract than he has now.

  300. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 3:44 pm

    mick your fantasizing about joba is shortsighted. He was never a reliever. The better fantasy is if they never stupidly promoted him to appease torre and he pitched for the first time in 08 as a starter

  301. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 3:45 pm

    can you imagine Jorge catching, Mirte pitching against the RS…with Crawford and Ellsbury running wild on the bases

  302. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 3:46 pm

    “Thome can’t hit LHP & the switch-hitting Posada can.”

    Actually, Thome hit LH starters last year better than Posada did, although overall vs LH Posada edged out Thome. Though not by enough to require a position swap on Posada’s part, especially considering the massive differential vs RHP.

    Overall, though, Cashman’s insistence on moving Posada out of the nominal starting job cascades throughout the lineup. With Posada clogging up DH, cheap DH options like Thome or Montero at DH are foreclosed. The empty spot at C sucks a starter like Martin into it, choking out quick advancement possibilities for Montero.

    Bottom line, our offense next year won’t be as nearly good as could have been, and we will no doubt see Montero significantly later than we could have done, all because Posada can’t be given the same opportunity in 2011 as he was in 2010.

    I’m just not ready to pat Cashman on the back for that move.

  303. blake December 29th, 2010 at 3:47 pm

    It wont happen because the Yanks wont comitt multiple years to Beltre when they don’t have an obvious need for him…..but he probably would make them better next year. He could play 3rd most of the time with Arod at DH and they could see if he could play LF against tough lefties (I have no idea if he could but I imagine he could). Problem is that Arod probably isn’t ready to move to DH and that probably moves Posada to a backup catcher role. Slim and none chance it happens.

    He’ll wind up with the Angels at some point.

  304. mick December 29th, 2010 at 3:48 pm

    RH 4th OF/DH – Manny
    ===============
    A platoon with Posada? Not happening.
    Don’t like the Gardner/Manny dynamic either.

  305. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 3:48 pm

    Hughes was better than joba as a reliever. Why aren’t we lamenting his return to that role?

  306. MoRings42 December 29th, 2010 at 3:50 pm

    Joba’s a WAS not an IS. He’s worthless now. He’s not that 2007 pitcher anymore… and we wasted him in 2008 playing that starter game. I don’t think trading him is even a possibility anymore.. he’s more of an add on than he is a name.

  307. mick December 29th, 2010 at 3:50 pm

    mick your fantasizing about joba is shortsighted.
    =================
    Face, it’s more realistic than saying he never should have been brought up, he was, that is reality.

  308. MoRings42 December 29th, 2010 at 3:52 pm

    Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 3:48 pm
    Hughes was better than joba as a reliever. Why aren’t we lamenting his return to that role?

    ———————–

    Because Hughes was better than our #2 starter for parts of the season.

  309. mick December 29th, 2010 at 3:52 pm

    Hughes was better than joba as a reliever. Why aren’t we lamenting his return to that role?
    ======================================
    Because he came up starting in the bigs, unlike Joba, and showed potential.

  310. Cashman needs to go December 29th, 2010 at 3:53 pm

    mick December 29th, 2010 at 3:48 pm
    RH 4th OF/DH – Manny
    ===============
    A platoon with Posada? Not happening.
    Don’t like the Gardner/Manny dynamic either.

    *******************

    Unlike cashman and girardi – i ain’t the GM to make friends….if posada doesn’t like it he can retire a year early and spent more time with his beautiful wife in Tampa…i have manny there for DH insurance once posada shows he’s too old and /or gets injured and LF insurance once gardner shows he can’t hack it and/or gets injured – manny would be guaranteed about 300 ab’s which won’t be enough to get the extra 3 million in incentives unless he’s raking all year – which is a win/win for me..

  311. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 3:54 pm

    Then you have to consider why he was brought up. He met his innings limits and either had to pitch out of the pen or make 3 more starts and be shut down. He wasnt brought up as a future reliever. It was a continuation of what he did in the minors.

  312. mick December 29th, 2010 at 3:54 pm

    Manny is a disruptive force and will demand his incentive #’s whatever they are. Manny is about Manny.

  313. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 3:55 pm

    CNTG

    Ok, here’s my spending of $35M:
    Sign Jon Rauch for 3 years, $15M. balance $20M
    Sign Will Ohman for 1 year, $3M. balance $17M
    Sign Jeff Francis for 1 year, $5M. balance $12M
    Sign Freddy Garcia for 1 year, $5M. balance $7M

    Trades: Mitre, Joba to Seattle for Aardsma; Cervelli to Houston for Keppinger

    Rotation: CC, Hughes, AJ, Garcia, Francis
    Bullpen: Mariano, Rauch, Aardsma, Robertson, Logan, Feliciano, Ohman
    Lineup: Gardner, Swisher, Tex, ARod, Cano, Posada, Jeter, Granderson, Martin
    Catchers: Posada, Montero
    Bench: Keppinger, Nunez, Golson

    AAA: Nova, Montero

    Alternate: Don’t trade Cervelli. Keep him as backup. Laird as bench instead of Keppinger

  314. RayVT December 29th, 2010 at 3:56 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 3:46 pm

    I tend to think Posada will have a much better 2011 than 2010. He played thru multiple injuries because the only other option was Cervelli. Cashman fixed that with Martin. I truly believe Montero catches 50 games in 2011 & Martin around 80. That leaves 30 games for someone & I suspect it will be Posada.

    Let’s face it, the whole Yankee team outside of Cano was hurt basically the last half of the season in 2010 & they still won 95 games. Some crazy player use by Girardi cost some more wins IMO. With Martin the Yanks could afford to use Montero & Posada at catcher & Martin could still be a defensive replacement as well at times.

    Keeping everyone fresh in 2011 has to be the key for the Yanks to win #28. Martin/Laird/Nunez/Golson? will help them to do that IMO. I expect the Yanks to bring in another bat for playoff run (probably an OF) and another SP to fortify the Yankee rotation before Sept 1.

  315. Mell December 29th, 2010 at 3:56 pm

    “Overall, though, Cashman’s insistence on moving Posada out of the nominal starting job cascades throughout the lineup”

    Don’t disagree with you Wave, but the fact is that since signing his contract back before the ’08 season, Posada has averaged about 60 games caught per season and when he did catch he wasn’t especially good. Cashman saw what happened when major league baseball saw too much of Francisco Cervelli and apparently wasn’t prepared to put himself in that position again. I wasn’t wild about the Martin thing myself, but do recognize it was sort of half necessary.

  316. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 3:57 pm

    Joba pitched better as a starter than hughes in the majors. And hughes had more injuries and diminished stuff. They are very comparable. Hughes was a better reliever. Everyone forgets joba started slipping as a reliever compared to 07 in 08.

  317. Cashman needs to go December 29th, 2010 at 3:57 pm

    mick December 29th, 2010 at 3:54 pm
    Manny is a disruptive force and will demand his incentive #’s whatever they are. Manny is about Manny.

    **************************

    if he can get more than 7 million a year guaranteed from another team then i’ll go with vlad instead….i’ll take my chances with him in the OF for 20 – 30 games in the season…

  318. mick December 29th, 2010 at 3:57 pm

    Then you have to consider why he was brought up. He met his innings limits and either had to pitch out of the pen or make 3 more starts and be shut down. He wasnt brought up as a future reliever. It was a continuation of what he did in the minors.
    ======================================
    The guy was phenomenal out of the pen.
    If they weren’t short on starting pitching he would have stayed there out of neccesity.
    The grand master plan was to develop another starter on the cheap.
    Couldn’t that have waited another year if he didn’t keep up that fantastic pace in the pen.
    We will never know what we had. We could have found out later about him as a starter.

  319. West Coast Yankee Fan December 29th, 2010 at 3:58 pm

    I think the Posada to DH move is going to be one of the more interesting stories of the year. It’s possible after he gets acclimated to the role and starts reaping the physical benefits of not catching, he could have a great year. What a plus if that turns out to be the case, to have a switch-hitting DH who can hit.

    I think Posada has the incentive (aside from pride) to do well. This is his walk year and if he does a good job, he could be setting himself up for a series of healthy one-year deals going forward. If not with the Yankees, with someone.

    I don’t think a .280/.365/.485/.820 is out of the question with 22 home runs and 90 RBI’s.

  320. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 3:59 pm

    joba pitched a total of 88 innings in 07 in the minors a year after getting out of school……was never ready to pitch in the Majors….my opinion

  321. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 3:59 pm

    Oops, my math is off:
    Ok, here’s my spending of $35M:
    Sign Jon Rauch for 3 years, $15M. balance $30M
    Sign Will Ohman for 1 year, $3M. balance $27M
    Sign Jeff Francis for 1 year, $5M. balance $22M
    Sign Freddy Garcia for 1 year, $5M. balance $17M

    4 signings, and $17M left for contingencies later in season.

  322. G-C December 29th, 2010 at 4:00 pm

    “Everyone forgets joba started slipping as a reliever compared to 07 in 08.”

    _________________________________________________

    My favorite example of selective memory when it comes to Joba.

    He didn’t impress me one bit as a reliever in 2008. And then he absolutely blew everyone away as a starter.

  323. Joe S formerly of Brooklyn December 29th, 2010 at 4:00 pm

    What if the NYY’s idea at Catcher is to hedge some bets?

    Montero either looks good in spring training or starts year at AAA.
    Russell Martin either is physically able or not; he either can hit again or not.

    If Martin looks OK, and Montero looks Great, then they play Montero. If he proves reliable, they can use Martin to trade for a starting pitcher before the 7/31/11 deadline.

    Cervelli is, at this point, a known quantity. If Montero’s spring is in the minors, and Martin just does not have it (remember Nick Johnson!) . . . Cervelli starts a lot of baseball games.

    With all due respect to the Cashman Critics, this seems like a pretty good plan. If it is the plan (?).

    AND: Last year Chad Moeller was the AAA catcher who got the call-up when help was needed. Wasn’t on the roster before the call-up (I don’t think) — and isn’t now. Got into 9 games.

    I didn’t include him in the plan above b/c I didn’t know — Is he still around?

    Based on past performance, the NYYs probably won’t go North with 3 catchers (AND: it looks like they’ll need at least 13 pitchers……). So your 2 catchers could be

    Martin-Montero
    Martin-Cervelli
    Montero-Cervelli — if Martin goes to the DL or gets traded in June-July
    Cervelli-(Moeller?) — with Martin on the DL and Montero working out the kinks in AAA.

    Bottom line: It’s probably a bit too early to trade Cervelli.

  324. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    Mcik he needed innings. The only way to get a full season of joba was to split his time in the pen and rrotation. He only stayed in the bp out of spring in 08 because the shortsightedwould have cried foul.

  325. Cashman needs to go December 29th, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 3:55 pm
    CNTG

    Ok, here’s my spending of $35M:
    Sign Jon Rauch for 3 years, $15M. balance $20M
    Sign Will Ohman for 1 year, $3M. balance $17M
    Sign Jeff Francis for 1 year, $5M. balance $12M
    Sign Freddy Garcia for 1 year, $5M. balance $7M

    **********************************
    Da Saint you’ve actually only spent 18 million of the 35 million allowed (remember its 35 million PER YEAR you are allowed to spend)….you would make Hal very happy spending only half of what he’s given you to spend….also we do agree on 2 of the available players rauch and keppinger….good work..

  326. mick December 29th, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    Posada won’t make it thru the season.
    He will pull a hammy stretching out a double and then we hope for Jesus, our savior, to DH.

  327. G-C December 29th, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    DaSaint, what role do you propose using Ohman in with a bullpen that already has two lefties?

    Rivera
    Chamberlain
    Robertson
    Logan
    Feliciano
    Longman
    ?

    I only see room for one more bullpen guy as is and I think that role will be a duke out between (hopefully) impressive youngsters during Spring Training.

  328. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 4:04 pm

    Martin is too expensive to be a hedge bet. They brought him in to catch, and catch he will. My guess is between 120 and 130 games.

  329. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 4:04 pm

    # mick December 29th, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    Posada won’t make it thru the season.
    He will pull a hammy stretching out a double and then we hope for Jesus, our savior, to DH.
    ————————————————

    no way he’ll pull that hammy trying to score from 2nd on a double to right center

  330. tyanksfan36 December 29th, 2010 at 4:05 pm

    joeman says:

    December 29, 2010 at 3:45 pm

    can you imagine Jorge catching, Mirte pitching against the RS…with Crawford and Ellsbury running wild on the bases

    —-
    While I don’t like to get into picky arguments on here I just would like to bring up that Carl Crawford had 47 stolen bases last season and BJ Upton had 42. So yeah I can imagine it. I think we will be fine in that regard because we’ve dealt with Crawford and Upton a lot already. I don’t expect ellsbury and crawford to be much worse

  331. mick December 29th, 2010 at 4:05 pm

    He will pull a hammy stretching out a double and then we hope for Jesus, our savior, to DH.
    ==========================
    Substitute Pray for hope.

  332. mick December 29th, 2010 at 4:06 pm

    no way he’ll pull that hammy trying to score from 2nd on a double to right center
    ================
    was thinking 1st to 2nd…but either way, his legs are shot, makes Molina look like Usdain Bolt.

  333. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 4:07 pm

    # tyanksfan36 December 29th, 2010 at 4:05 pm

    joeman says:

    December 29, 2010 at 3:45 pm

    can you imagine Jorge catching, Mirte pitching against the RS…with Crawford and Ellsbury running wild on the bases

    —-
    While I don’t like to get into picky arguments on here I just would like to bring up that Carl Crawford had 47 stolen bases last season and BJ Upton had 42. So yeah I can imagine it. I think we will be fine in that regard because we’ve dealt with Crawford and Upton a lot already. I don’t expect ellsbury and crawford to be much worse
    ————————————————————————
    when healthy Ellsbury stole 60-70 bases

  334. mick December 29th, 2010 at 4:09 pm

    keep up the good bball talk in here, i need a break…

  335. disco stu December 29th, 2010 at 4:10 pm

    Jerkface – good points about Joba … it is amazing that as recently as post-all star break ’09, Joba was actually pitching well as a starter … right before the Yankees decided to limit his innings – which ultimately screwed him up to the point where he has still hasn’t recovered.

    As I said before, the Yankees certainly haven’t helped with attempting to mold Joba into a successful major league pitcher – their methods have been horrible – the worst of which was back ’08 when they used actual regular season games as extended ST for Joba to build his arm strength up from reliever to starter (probably the reason why he hurt his arm later that summer).

  336. tyanksfan36 December 29th, 2010 at 4:11 pm

    Wave your hat

    I think the plan is for Martin to catch the majority of the time. His contract has incentives for games caught. It doesn’t make sense to bring up Montero if he isn’t going to catch because he needs to work on his defense. The only way I see them bringing him up is if he kills it in AAA and they bring him up and he continues, then maybe they trade Martin with Posada, Cervelli and Montero splitting catching and DH. I’m not saying Posada catches except maybe if they want to DH Montero and even then I doubt they have him catch.

  337. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 4:14 pm

    G-C,

    I know that Ohman would be the 3rd lefty, but with lefty dominant boston and others in the league, it wouldn’t hurt. I think that’s why the Yankees are reportedly still considering Fuentes. Ohman would be a cheaper option, and easily tradeable.

    Bullpen: Mariano, Rauch, Aardsma, Robertson, Logan, Feliciano, Ohman

    Logan can go 2 innings, as can Rauch and Robertson
    Aardsma, Feliciano and Ohman can go 1 inning or against specific hitters.

  338. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 3:46 pm

    Overall, though, Cashman’s insistence on moving Posada out of the nominal starting job cascades throughout the lineup. With Posada clogging up DH, cheap DH options like Thome or Montero at DH are foreclosed. The empty spot at C sucks a starter like Martin into it, choking out quick advancement possibilities for Montero.

    Bottom line, our offense next year won’t be as nearly good as could have been, and we will no doubt see Montero significantly later than we could have done, all because Posada can’t be given the same opportunity in 2011 as he was in 2010.

    I’m just not ready to pat Cashman on the back for that move.

    ———————————–

    That’s just so wrong on so many levels:

    1. The Yankees are hoping that a move out from behind the plate enables Jorge to be a much more productive offensive player than he was in 2010. They were willing to accept the fact that he stinks defensively as long as he was still hitting well, but last year with all the injuries his BA was 30 points off his career average, Slugging was down 25 points, and OPS was 40 points down. Those dropoffs made his lack of defensive ability unacceptable behind the plate.

    2. The Yankees were weak offensively behind the plate and at DH with the pupu platter of Nick Johnson, Lance Berkman, Marcus Thames getting the majority of ABs there. Posada should be able to at least match if not surpass that and while Martin may not be much of a force at the plate – I’ll accept that if he provides solid defensive work back there.

    3. Cashman is not banishing Posada to DH out of some evil plot. Jorge is not physically able to catch anymore. Not in any meaningful sense of the word. Check the game logs – more often than not if Jorge caught 2 or more games in a row he would have to miss the next couple of games due to nagging injuries. All of which he suffered behind the plate – the concussion he took from a tipped ball, the broken foot that resulted from a foul ball hitting him. The Yankees are trying to get the most production they can from Posada and that means keeping him healthy and well rested and that means he can’t be an everyday catcher.

    4. As for Montero – you don’t know what you’re talking about – take a look at how many games Posada caught his first year. 60. The Yankees prefer to break in a catcher slowly because of how critical the position is. Martin’s signing allows them to do that. He’s not going to suffer from the wear and tear that Posada would and he’s far superior to Cervelli (in a down year for Martin he still put up numbers that were as good as Cervelli’s in his best year). Montero will be up some time around early June, he will catch his 60-70 games and play a few more at DH.

  339. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    What concerns me about boston is actually their speed. I can see lots of double steals, as well as steals of home with Ellsbury, Crawford and Cameron on that roster.

    Frankly, if I were running that team, I’d run on Posada until his arm fell off. Which is why I’m hoping that this year, maybe, just MAYBE, Gardner, Granderson, Jeter, and Golson run on boston until Vtek and Salty’s arms drop off in a game.

    I would run every time, all the time. Steal second. Steal third. Steal second and third. Steal second and home. Just run dammit!

  340. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    it looks like 6/8/08 joba went from a RP to a SP.. with no stretching out because he pitched 1 inning two days earlier , then on 9/2/08 went back to being a RP……..they jerked this kid around

  341. stuart a December 29th, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    cashman needs to go, you are insane. the overvaluing of other teams players and undervaluing ours is astounding. Manny for $7 mill. He is lucky to get a contract anywhere.

    Rauch $5 mill and Fuentes 7 mill, delusional.

    trading 4 guys for Dallas Braden.

    seriously you are insane……

  342. tyanksfan36 December 29th, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    Joeman

    Well luckily Posada isn’t going to be the catcher. Cashman has been pretty straightforward when it has come to Posada being the DH. If Martin is healthy we should be pretty good with the situation behind the plate if he lives up to his reputation.

  343. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 4:22 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 3:46 pm

    The empty spot at C sucks a starter like Martin into it, choking out quick advancement possibilities for Montero.

    By the way – Russ Martin is probably the best defensive catcher the Yankees will have had since Joe Girardi in the late 90s.

    And just like when the Yankees had Girardi and Leyritz (and Girardi and Posada) there will be plenty of work for both Martin and Montero.

    Russ Martin and Jesus Montero are going to be a latter day Joe Girardi Jorge Posada duo – a duo which worked out pretty well for the Yankees for a few years.

  344. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    # tyanksfan36 December 29th, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    Joeman

    Well luckily Posada isn’t going to be the catcher. Cashman has been pretty straightforward when it has come to Posada being the DH. If Martin is healthy we should be pretty good with the situation behind the plate if he lives up to his reputation.
    ———————————————-
    no doubt he can still get the big hit…..but right now thats the only thing he can do, his baseball skills besides hitting are gone

  345. tyanksfan36 December 29th, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    I would hope Girardi would be smart enough not to have Posada catch when we play the Red Sox. They know the RS have a speedy lineup. Why are people talking like Posada is going to catch the majority of the season. Didn’t we get Martin so Posada wouldn’t have to catch anymore? And to break in Montero so he doesn’t have to be the primary catcher before he is ready?

  346. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 4:25 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 4:04 pm
    Martin is too expensive to be a hedge bet. They brought him in to catch, and catch he will. My guess is between 120 and 130 games.

    ———————

    Martin – if healthy – will get 90 – 100 games; Montero will get about 60 – 65. Posada and Cervelli will get whatever’s left.

  347. tyanksfan36 December 29th, 2010 at 4:27 pm

    Joeman

    I’m sure you’ve posted your opinion on it but do you mind Posada at DH? I think he will be fine. He was hurt for the majority of last season, due to catching, but I think he will be able to stay healthy if all he does is DH and knowing that it is job he will be able to adjust unlike last season when he was irritated because he just wanted to get back to catching.

  348. Cashman needs to go December 29th, 2010 at 4:30 pm

    stuart a –

    i actually thought i did a decent job – AND i didn’t trade the 5 top players that may become really good (montero, sanchez, and the 3 b’s)

    dallas braden regardless of his stay off my mound stupidity and bad teeth is a very good pitcher and the A’s don’t have to move him since he is still cheap – therefore giving up a few extra minor league scrubs to get him won’t hurt

    fuentes made 9 million last year – AND had a great year – if benoit can get what 6 million you think fuentes will get less than that – AND he has been a closer as well

    rauch as well – he was a closer last year…..the yankees gave feliciano 4 million per year to pitch to ONE batter at a time…

    i agree that manny probably won’t get more than 5 million – but i’m paying him the extra 2 million guaranteed to keep him motivated – a motivated manny will be a hurricane against other teams…

    and unfortunately i haven’t undervalued the yankee minor league players i’ve traded – they really won’t amount to anything in the big leagues – if anything all of the yankee fans on this blog tend to OVER value the yankee minor leaguers..

  349. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 4:31 pm

    My wish this year is that Girardi use speed some more. For the first time in years, the Yankees are a team built to run with the best in the league.

    Potentially:
    Gardner 55- 60 SB
    Granderson 20-25 SB
    Jeter 25-30 SB
    Arod 10-15
    Golson 10 SB

  350. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 4:32 pm

    “Russ Martin and Jesus Montero are going to be a latter day Joe Girardi Jorge Posada duo – a duo which worked out pretty well for the Yankees for a few years.”

    Girardi took ABs away from a Hall of Fame catcher for no reason. While the Yanks were successful during that period, the Yanks’ foolish insistence on platooning Girardi and Posada had nothing to do with it.

    By the way, I found your responses to my comments over-done and under-interesting. No insight, just repetition.

  351. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 4:32 pm

    By the way – $4 million is not “too expensive” to be a hedge bet.

    In 2009 the Yankees paid Jose Molina over $2 mil to be a complete backup to Posada

    Greg Zaun was paid nearly $2 mil last year to split time in Milwaukee; $1.5 the year before to help break in Matt Weiters in Baltimore.

    Varitek made 3 mil last year to back up Victor Martinez and will make another 2 million this year to split time with Salty.

    All of these players are much older than Martin and don’t have nearly his upside – $4 mil is a steal.

  352. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 4:36 pm

    if Martin is healthy and gets his stroke back he’s going to help this team a lot…

  353. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 4:37 pm

    If, if, if…

  354. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 4:38 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 4:32 pm
    “Russ Martin and Jesus Montero are going to be a latter day Joe Girardi Jorge Posada duo – a duo which worked out pretty well for the Yankees for a few years.”

    Girardi took ABs away from a Hall of Fame catcher for no reason. While the Yanks were successful during that period, the Yanks’ foolish insistence on platooning Girardi and Posada had nothing to do with it.

    By the way, I found your responses to my comments over-done and under-interesting. No insight, just repetition.
    ———————————–

    Again, much like your idiotic views on the pitchers – the Yankees, unlike you, do not want to just throw kids into the deep end of the pool and see if they can sink or swim. If that’s the baseball you want to see go watch the Pirates or Royals.

    The Yankees instead like to have their kids worked in slowly given every opportunity to succeed – especially for key positions like pitcher and catcher.

    They have the resources to do it and have had great results in doing it so my guess is they’re going to keep on doing it.

    By the way – the reason I repeat myself is because you are obviously an ignorant child and I’m hoping that I can get you to understand what is being said without having to write it in crayon for you with the “r” backwards.

  355. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 4:39 pm

    # tyanksfan36 December 29th, 2010 at 4:27 pm

    Joeman

    I’m sure you’ve posted your opinion on it but do you mind Posada at DH? I think he will be fine. He was hurt for the majority of last season, due to catching, but I think he will be able to stay healthy if all he does is DH and knowing that it is job he will be able to adjust unlike last season when he was irritated because he just wanted to get back to catching.
    —————————————————————–
    if he knows he’s going to be a DH and maybe catch once a week….he will help, but if he wants to catch more and has a fit about it will only hurt the team

  356. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 4:39 pm

    And the reason Girardi took those at bats from Posada is because the Yankees thought that was the best way to develop Jorge – given how Jorge turned out – I can’t argue the logic and neither can you.

  357. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 4:40 pm

    # Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 4:37 pm

    If, if, if…
    ——————————————
    I said I hated that (if) yesterday and here I am using it

  358. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 4:42 pm

    DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 4:31 pm
    My wish this year is that Girardi use speed some more. For the first time in years, the Yankees are a team built to run with the best in the league.

    Potentially:
    Gardner 55- 60 SB
    Granderson 20-25 SB
    Jeter 25-30 SB
    Arod 10-15
    Golson 10 SB
    ——————————-

    You can probably also put down Martin for about 10 – 15 SB.

    Not sure Golson makes the squad though.

  359. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 4:43 pm

    it looks like 6/8/08 joba went from a RP to a SP.. with no stretching out because he pitched 1 inning two days earlier , then on 9/2/08 went back to being a RP……..they jerked this kid around

    Please do not look at the game logs, misread the data, and then try and paint your misguided opinion as fact. May 21 the yankees announced they would begin the transition to the starter role for Joba, Girardi famously said it in the postgame interview with Kim Jones. Due to their need for quality pitching, because everyone was hurt or sucking incredibly, they decided not to send Joba down, instead hoping that Joba could give them good quality innings (no matter how many) as he got stretched out and the rest would be patched together by the long man (Dan Giese) and the bullpen.

    May 21 – Joba pitches 2 innings and throws 35 pitches
    May 24 – Joba pitches 2 innings and throws 40 pitches
    May 28 – Joba pitches 1.1 innings and because it is a save situation, gets lifted for Mariano, throws 28 pitches and then throws 30 more to get up to 50 (in the bullpen after the game)
    June 3 – Beginning to want more control over Joba’s innings, the yankees start Joba vs Toronto, he throws 2.1 IP and gets up to 62 pitches.
    June 8 – Joba moves up to 4.1 IP and throws 78 pitches.
    June 13 – Still getting stretched out, Joba needs only 88 pitches to finish Houston in 6 innings
    June 19 – Joba crushes San Diego, giving us all a taste of whats to come with 9 K’s and 100 pitches in 5.2 IP
    June 25 – Another stellar game, 114 pitches 6.2 IP SHO, Joba is now stretched out
    Jul 1 – After throwing 114 pitches, the Yankees are conservative and lift Joba after 91 pitches in only 4 innings.
    Jul 6 – 6 IP , 100 pitches
    Jul 11 – 6.2 IP 100 pitches
    Jul 19 – 6.0 IP 90 pitches
    Jul 25 – THE GAME, 7.0 IP SHO 9 K’s 102 pitches, we’re talking 8 IP if Joba is turned loose, maybe 9.
    Jul 30 – 6 IP 100 Pitches
    Aug 4 – The fateful game, Joba pitching in the texas heat feels some pain in his shoulder and leaves the game.

    After coming off the DL he is returned to the bullpen for the rest of the season because they don’t want to go through the trouble of building him up after missing a month of time.

    This is the story of Joba. I see nothing wrong with how they handled him. They built him up just fine with plenty of rest inbetween and Randy’s stupid 10 pitches per game build up theory.

  360. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 4:43 pm

    joeman December 29th, 2010 at 4:36 pm
    if Martin is healthy and gets his stroke back he’s going to help this team a lot…

    ————————-

    Even if Martin doesn’t hit any better than he did last year he’ll still help this team by giving them the best defense they’ve had behind the plate since 1998.

  361. tyanksfan36 December 29th, 2010 at 4:43 pm

    Wave your hat

    Every team in baseball has “ifs” its part of the game. There’s nothing wrong with bringing them up and discussing them. I’d rather hear people talk about the positives than the negatives which is mostly what people are bringing up.

  362. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 4:43 pm

    Chip, you have no idea what the Yanks think. I’m going to steal a signature line from a long-time LoHud commenter who I often disagree with but is at least frequently amusing, unlike some others who post here 24/7:

    Y A W N.

  363. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 4:45 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 4:43 pm
    Chip, you have no idea what the Yanks think. I’m going to steal a signature line from a long-time LoHud commenter who I often disagree with but is at least frequently amusing, unlike some others who post here 24/7:

    Y A W N.

    —————

    A stunning retort – almost as compelling as “because I said so.”

  364. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 4:46 pm

    “A stunning retort – almost as compelling as “because I said so.”

    Y A W N. MEGA- Y A W N.

  365. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 4:46 pm

    You can probably also put down Martin for about 10 – 15 SB.

    Not sure Golson makes the squad though.
    ————————————-
    Didn’t put Martin down for any due to his recent recovery from surgery, but somewhere around 10 should cover him also.

    Golson to me is an ideal defensive replacement in RF/pinch runner. He can also play the other two OF positions if needed. Unless Yankees sign a Reed Johnson type, he should make it.

  366. tyanksfan36 December 29th, 2010 at 4:47 pm

    oeman says:

    December 29, 2010 at 4:39 pm

    # tyanksfan36 December 29th, 2010 at 4:27 pm

    Joeman

    I’m sure you’ve posted your opinion on it but do you mind Posada at DH? I think he will be fine. He was hurt for the majority of last season, due to catching, but I think he will be able to stay healthy if all he does is DH and knowing that it is job he will be able to adjust unlike last season when he was irritated because he just wanted to get back to catching.
    —————————————————————–
    if he knows he’s going to be a DH and maybe catch once a week….he will help, but if he wants to catch more and has a fit about it will only hurt the team

    I think he will know his role. He said he wanted them to tell him what his job is going to be and they told him. He is still a good hitter when healthy so I think that’s a plus with him. If he was awful at catching and hitting then there would be issues but I still think he can contribute offensively which is helpful.

  367. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 4:49 pm

    Bottom line – this Yankee team is as good offensively as it was last year and better defensively than it was last year simply by moving Posada out from behind the plate and putting Martin in.

    The Yankees got limited production from their DH spot and awful defense from their catchers.

    A healthy Posada at DH should easily outperform last year’s DHs and Martin’s defense is leaps and bounds better than what the Yankees got from Cervelli and Jorge last year.

  368. Chip December 29th, 2010 at 4:50 pm

    Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 4:46 pm
    “A stunning retort – almost as compelling as “because I said so.”

    Y A W N. MEGA- Y A W N.

    ————–

    I can’t wait for the kiddies to go back to school.

  369. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 4:51 pm

    This is unamusing for everyone. Please do not invoke Trisha, lest she actually come back.

  370. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 4:51 pm

    # Chip December 29th, 2010 at 4:49 pm

    Bottom line – this Yankee team is as good offensively as it was last year and better defensively than it was last year simply by moving Posada out from behind the plate and putting Martin in.

    The Yankees got limited production from their DH spot and awful defense from their catchers.

    A healthy Posada at DH should easily outperform last year’s DHs and Martin’s defense is leaps and bounds better than what the Yankees got from Cervelli and Jorge last year.
    —————————————————–
    now get that pitching staff stronger ….bring on the RS

  371. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 4:53 pm

    Chip, you aren’t SJ44, you don’t pull it off with any authority.

    Y A W N.

  372. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 4:55 pm

    jerkface, trisha would be a blessing.

  373. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 4:56 pm

    No, really, she wouldn’t. She has just as little substance as the gloom and doom troupe, yet manages to be more annoying despite the over positivity.

  374. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 4:56 pm

    According to MLBTR.com, Yankees Arb Eligible players:

    Chamberlain
    Hughes
    Logan
    Mitre (Didn’t he resign for $850K?)
    ———————————-
    Thoughts?

  375. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 4:57 pm

    Mitre re-signed, the rest will probably combine for less than 4 mil.

  376. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 5:01 pm

    jerkface, I’d think Hughes alone will get close to $4M.

  377. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 5:04 pm

    jerkface, I’d think Hughes alone will get close to $4M.

    I think closer to 2 million. First year arbitration eligible pitcher? 4 million? Do we have any comps we can look at. Matt Garza got 3.3 mil with more innings and a better year and a better track record.

  378. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 5:07 pm

    John Danks got 3 mil, and he was better and more left handed than Hughes.

    Hughes is gonna get like 2.something mil. Joba and Logan split the rest.

  379. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    Zach Miner got 900k after throwing 110 innings of 4.28 ERA.

  380. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 5:16 pm

    Think Joba gets traded before or after Arb hearings, or not at all?

  381. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 5:20 pm

    Jered Weaver got 4 mill and he threw 211 3.75 ERA. Wave, I think we can safely say that Hughes is going to get less than 3 mil.

  382. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 5:25 pm

    Fausto Carmona? almost 3M his third year. Matt Garza, as you say. Price got $1.8M. Lester $1M after 2008, a very good year. Liriano, $1.6M after a 5-13 effort.

    I’m thinking the over on $3M after an 18 win season.

  383. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 5:26 pm

    Didn’t Wang get $4M in his first year of eligib?

  384. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 5:27 pm

    I’m thinking the over on $3M after an 18 win season.

    The Yankees arbitration team is going to crush any player trying to get over 3 mil by using wins.

    And Price making 1.8 mil (which isnt an arbitration number), how does that help Hughes? It hurts him. Same with all the other cases I mentioned. Friendly wager on Hughes arbitration number?

  385. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 5:30 pm

    Wang got exactly 4 million after throwing 417 IP of 3.67 era ball. I think you are really wrong here, Wave.

  386. blake December 29th, 2010 at 5:31 pm

    Whether its 2 or 4 million for Hughes he’ll be a bargain in 2011….I say he gets 2.5 mill or so.

  387. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 5:31 pm

    Carmona avoided arbitration and got only 2.75 mil in his first arbitration year in the deal for throwing 200 IP and a 3 ERA.

    All these comps hurt Hughes.

  388. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 5:32 pm

    This is a silly thing to argue about, but at least its baseball related and we can learn something from it.

  389. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 5:33 pm

    jerkface-

    I was just posting numbers, I wasn’t cherry-picking, put up the good numbers and the bad.

    Comps aren’t just arbitration awards, all salaries are looked at.

    I haven’t begun to look at them all, but Carmona and Garza are good comps. It isn’t all ERA. And Jered Weaver at $4.265 argues pretty strongly for Hughes north of $3M, IMO.

    But you could be right as well, I think Hughes proposed number will be over $3M though.

  390. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 5:35 pm

    jerkface-

    If I were SJ44 it would be an argument. But as far as I’m concerned we are just having a discussion.

  391. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 5:36 pm

    Looking at innings pitched, ERA, periphs, and everything. I think the yankees deal with Hughes outside of arbitration for less than 3 mil. I think Hughes asks for 3.5 and the Yankees will put up 2.8 or 2.9 if they go to arbitration, and win.

    Too many players who were better than Hughes got paid only marginally more than 3 mil for Hughes.

    Weavers 4 mil came with better stats across the board. Garza, Danks, Carmona, will all pull Hughes down from anywhere in the Mid 3′s.

  392. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 5:37 pm

    I was able to see the arbitration files the mets had on Francouer at the winter meetings, and they really compare everything. Even things like awards placement and national recognition.

  393. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 5:39 pm

    I think Price has a contract for $4.6M which buys out some years, but I could be wrong.

  394. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 5:39 pm

    Hughes team could put up Ian Snell. He did well, then sucked right before arbitration, and got 3 mil.

  395. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 5:41 pm

    Ricky Nolasco only got 2.4 mil for 15 – 8 , 200 IP 3.52 ERA

  396. blake December 29th, 2010 at 5:45 pm

    Who do you guys think should get in the HOF this year?

    I.would vote for Alomar, Bleylevin, Larkin, and Raines. I know Bagwell is starting to get a lot of love and he was one of my favorite non-yankees when he played….but he just never felt like a HOFer to me. If he got in that would be ok.

  397. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 5:45 pm

    OK, I’m coming around on Hughes.

  398. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 5:47 pm

    I think if Hughes team puts up less than 3.3 they might be able to win (at any number).

  399. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 5:48 pm

    BB-Ref puts the total arb costs for the yankees at $4.67M (estimated using averages, so I don’t think its that precise).

    2.7-3.3 for Hughes, the rest for Logan and Joba?

  400. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 5:49 pm

    What this really shows is that we need some yankee news.

  401. randy l. December 29th, 2010 at 5:51 pm

    “This is the story of Joba. I see nothing wrong with how they handled him. They built him up just fine with plenty of rest inbetween and Randy’s stupid 10 pitches per game build up theory.”

    jerkface-

    the only rule i would say exists is that when you are stretching out a pitcher, you have to err on the slow side unless you want to increase the chance of injury later on.

    why do i get the feeling you are really ignorant of what actually goes on when working with pitchers.

    with joba in 2008, the two numbers that are red lights to me are the increase from 28 to 62 ( bullpen throwing isn’t the same thing as game action) and the 114 pitches one month into the process of stretching joba out.

    114 is a very high number any time let alone one month into a stretching process.

    for example, sabathia in 2010 did not throw 114 pitches until june 9th,in his 13 start last year. and that was on top of a full spring training of starting.

    114 pitches is a lot of pitches for a veteran let alone a 22 year old.

    joba has never thrown more than 108 pitches in any other mlb start.

    so what were the yankees thinking when he’s 22 years old and having him throw 114 pitches after only one month of stretching?

    114 pitches to this day is his mlb max .

    it was a really dumb decision.

  402. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 5:53 pm

    Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 5:49 pm
    What this really shows is that we need some yankee news
    ———————————–

    Now that is the best post of the day.

  403. BTX December 29th, 2010 at 5:54 pm

    francis stinks… 4.77 career ERA in the NL west… has never had an ERA under 4 in his career… soft tosser, is below average against righties…. doesn’t throw hard or K guys…. pass.

  404. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 5:56 pm

    with joba in 2008, the two numbers that are red lights to me are the increase from 28 to 62 ( bullpen throwing isn’t the same thing as game action) and the 114 pitches one month into the process of stretching joba out.

    114 is a very high number any time let alone one month into a stretching process.

    for example, sabathia in 2010 did not throw 114 pitches until june 9th,in his 13 start last year. and that was on top of a full spring training of starting.

    114 pitches is a lot of pitches for a veteran let alone a 22 year old.

    joba has never thrown more than 108 pitches in any other mlb start.

    so what were the yankees thinking when he’s 22 years old and having him throw 114 pitches after only one month of stretching?

    114 pitches to this day is his mlb max .

    it was a really dumb decision.

    How is bullpen any different, for your body, from game throwing? Should we also discount minor league innings since everyone says its not as hard down there as well? And you can look at the ultra conservative approach the Tigers took with Porcello, he never threw over 104 until Sept 29, and how that backfired. Joba was gradually increased up to 114. He got the extra 10% up to 114 that you love so much. But now suddenly 114 is some ultra high? CC Sabathia threw 117 pitches on May 14 in 08. he lasted just fine. The Year before 113 may 6, 110 Apr 15.

    Also you forget that in 08 Joba had 1 month of stretching in ADDITION TO an entire off season and spring training where in he was a starter.

  405. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 5:59 pm

    In his very first year starting, CC threw 115 pitches against the yankees in May. And we should all know its not always the amount of pitches you throw. Its how you throw them.

  406. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 6:04 pm

    In that pit game his last fastball was 96 mph, and he didn’t touch 99 till he had thrown 90 pitches.

  407. randy l. December 29th, 2010 at 6:15 pm

    jerkface-

    you’re just talking so much nonsense it’s hard to take you serious.

    114 pitches is a lot of pitches for a 22 year old at any time let alone one month into being stretched out from short relief.

    if you can’t admit that you really have no credibility on this issue of pitch count.

    anyone on this blog knows 114 pitches is an unusually high number of pitches for any pitcher any time let alone a 22 year old.

    david price pitched his whole first year in 2009 and hit 114 once and that was in his 16th start in late august.

    114 is a big number.

    there’s no getting around it.

    114 is a big number for a 22 year old after a few starts.

    if it wasn’t everyone would do it.

    they don’t

  408. 108 stitches December 29th, 2010 at 6:16 pm

    Rarely does a player ever lose in arbitration. After the salaries are submitted and a player doesn’t get what he wanted, it’s still higher than what his salary was from the previous season.
    Most players don’t want to go through the process and settle before a hearing ever happens.

  409. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 6:16 pm

    Chad Billingsley had monumental jumps in pitches per game and breaching 100 pitches when he was getting turned back into a starter in 07.

    There is no hard or fast rule for pitcher development. I don’t think the Yankees are to blame for Joba’s shoulder having tendonitis.

  410. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 6:24 pm

    you’re just talking so much nonsense it’s hard to take you serious.

    114 pitches is a lot of pitches for a 22 year old at any time let alone one month into being stretched out from short relief.

    if you can’t admit that you really have no credibility on this issue of pitch count.

    anyone on this blog knows 114 pitches is an unusually high number of pitches for any pitcher any time let alone a 22 year old.

    david price pitched his whole first year in 2009 and hit 114 once and that was in his 16th start in late august.

    114 is a big number.

    there’s no getting around it.

    114 is a big number for a 22 year old after a few starts.

    if it wasn’t everyone would do it.

    they don’t

    Its such a big number that everyone regularly achieves it at such a young age. If it is so big a number, for ANY 22 year old, why did these pitchers hit that number or exceed or come within 4 pitches:

    CC
    Billingsley
    Clay Buchholz
    Josh Beckett
    Jon Lester (did his give him cancer?)
    Liriano
    Danks,
    Peavy

    I’ve stopped looking because I have all of these.

    You keep saying the same thing over and over as if it makes it valid. ‘Huge number Huge number Huge Number Huge Number’. Doesn’t make it mean anything.

  411. Carlo December 29th, 2010 at 6:27 pm

    To take the subject off Joba Chamberlain and pitch counts, I will say that the meathelmets on mlb network hot stove were basically saying the yankees should get soriano and seem to believe they are involved with him.

  412. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 6:27 pm

    And shouldn’t you be trying to reach your maximums every so often so your body is… you know, used to it? Maybe we should have Hughes and Joba tandem start a game so they don’t crack 90 pitches until they are 27.

  413. Carlo December 29th, 2010 at 6:32 pm

    Mitch Williams:

    “The biggest gap in the AL East this year is going to be between first and second, the bottom will be bunched, Boston has just distanced themselves that much.”

    Important to note: 3 years ago Mitch was my casino host in Atlantic City. Now he is a baseball “expert”.

  414. blake December 29th, 2010 at 6:34 pm

    So the media thinks Boston is good?….that’s weird

  415. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 6:34 pm

    Mitch Williams is good when he is talking about mechanics of pitching or saying why a pitch is effective, I wouldn’t ask him to analyze the entire scope of the MLB.

  416. randy l. December 29th, 2010 at 6:35 pm

    “There is no hard or fast rule for pitcher development.”

    jerkface-

    according to this position of yours, no pitching coach could ever be blamed for stretching out a pitcher too fast.

    i think it’s obvious a pitcher can be stretched out too fast.

    as a practical matter , slow steady increases are what you want. that’s the hard rule. go slow.

    no matter how much you spin it ,114 is a lot of pitches after a few starts for a 22 year old .

    and this is especially true when that pitcher already had a history of shoulder problems.

    i believe that joba in 2009 was stretched out too fast.

    the one thing it appears we agree on is that joba should get a chance to compete for a starting position again .

    if he gets this chance again and does start, he should be allowed to start a season as a starter( after a full spring training) and to build up slowly to 100 pitches.

    once there, i wouldn’t let him go over 110 pitches the whole first year.

    i would do this based on feel, instinct, and intuition based on experience.

    and not on any hard set rule.

    I don’t think the Yankees are to blame for Joba’s shoulder having tendonitis.”

  417. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 6:36 pm

    AL East Prediction:

    New York
    boston
    Toronto
    Tampa Bay
    Baltimore

  418. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 6:36 pm

    # Carlo December 29th, 2010 at 6:32 pm

    Mitch Williams:

    “The biggest gap in the AL East this year is going to be between first and second, the bottom will be bunched, Boston has just distanced themselves that much.”

    Important to note: 3 years ago Mitch was my casino host in Atlantic City. Now he is a baseball “expert”.
    ——————————————————
    got one of those there also…Borgata

  419. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 6:37 pm

    Come on Randy keep up. I didn’t whack your hornet’s nest shaped head to talk to myself on here.

  420. Carlo December 29th, 2010 at 6:39 pm

    Joeman – haven’t been down there in 2 years now. Rather go to Mosun or even sands bethlehem over in PA. AC is depressing these days.

  421. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 6:41 pm

    Should have clicked refresh one more time :x

    you misunderstand me Randy, I don’t think the Yankees should be blamed for stretching Joba out to fast. I think they stretched him out just fine. He prepared all offseason as a starter, he was in spring training as a starter. He went to the bullpen for a month and a half and was then stretched out from the base line pitch count of a reliever up to that of a starter. I think it was fine.

    I think that reckless pitch counts and innings should be appropriately looked down upon, and thus I would not free every pitching development system in the league from any blame what-so-ever, but I don’t think the Yankees were reckless at all.

    Look at what the Dodgers did with billingsley. They went from 20 pitches to 70 pitches. And once he got to 100 they immediately cranked him to 113, 110, 114 all in a row. He was fine. Maybe its more about the individual than the process.

  422. joeman December 29th, 2010 at 6:41 pm

    # Carlo December 29th, 2010 at 6:39 pm

    Joeman – haven’t been down there in 2 years now. Rather go to Mosun or even sands bethlehem over in PA. AC is depressing these days.
    ———————————————————–
    I don’t go near the Boardwalk… ever been to Mohegan

  423. randy l. December 29th, 2010 at 6:43 pm

    “You keep saying the same thing over and over as if it makes it valid. ‘Huge number Huge number Huge Number Huge Number’. Doesn’t make it mean anything.”

    jerkface-

    i’m repeating 114 because it is a big number you are trying to hide in a smokescreen of words.

  424. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 6:44 pm

    100 is a big number. Its 100 more pitches than any human should throw.

  425. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 6:48 pm

    If Barry Zito, who has 3 years/$57.5M left plus a 4th year buyout for $7M was dangled by SF along with Sf covering say $20M of the remaining salary, would you pull the trigger?

  426. blake December 29th, 2010 at 6:51 pm

    Zito would be a good replacement for Igawa…..maybe he could break his record.

  427. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 6:52 pm

    Pulled the trigger on what? Zito + 20 mil for what? Anything more than like Kevin Russo? Pass. I’d definitely pass on him anyways. We could probably have him for free.

    He throws the ball 85 mph. There were huge warning signs on his departure from Oakland, I can’t believe the Giants gave him that deal.

  428. max December 29th, 2010 at 6:59 pm

    “Dotel had an uninspiring 4.08 ERA and 22 saves with three teams last season.”

    Using those stats to sum up a reliever’s year is uninspiring analysis.

  429. randy l. December 29th, 2010 at 7:01 pm

    “100 is a big number. Its 100 more pitches than any human should throw.”

    i disagree as i think throwing is a natural hardwired human activity.

    checked billingsley’s pitch counts .

    no doubt he’s thrown a lot of pitches and had some dramatic increases.

    the problem is this : what if going slow created hypothetically say 10% of pitchers with serious arm injuries and going fast created 50% pitchers with serious arm injuries.

    how do you know if a pitcher like billingsley who went fast wasn’t one of the lucky ones. just because some make it through being rushed doesn’t mean that a higher percentage wouldn’t be healthier if they were all developed slowly.

  430. DaSaint007 December 29th, 2010 at 7:08 pm

    LOL @ blake.

    Just checking around for likely salary dump pitching candidates.

    Well, seems like Francis, Capuano, and Garcia are the targets. Rangers thought more of Webb than the Yankees did. Milwood is unlikely, as are Bonderman, Duchscherer, and Sheets. Chris Young probably stays in the NL, Washburn is washed up, Penny? Probably not. Maine? Not.
    Pavano? That sequel won’t happen.

  431. mick December 29th, 2010 at 7:14 pm

    Can the Yanks afford both Andy and Soriano?
    I know they can, but is it within their budget?

  432. Carlo December 29th, 2010 at 7:19 pm

    Joeman – I work in the finance/casino business…..u name the casino, I’ve been there. Mohegan PA and the original in CT

  433. Joe from Long Island December 29th, 2010 at 7:20 pm

    jerkface and randy –

    1. Hi, I’ve been trying to catch up with intelligent baseball talk, and respect the discussion you’ve been having of late about pitch counts in general, and Joba in particular.

    2. It reminds me of a saying in my line of work – “If things work out well, then what you did was correct. If things don’t work out, then whatever you did was wrong.” It sounds trite, but sums up so much of looking at things in hindsight.

    3. I’d love to here an honest discussion of the Yankees’ philosophy in regards to developing Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain. I don’t think we fans will ever get an honest discussion, but I’d love to hear it.

  434. Carlo December 29th, 2010 at 7:23 pm

    Mick – if they had $25 earmarked for lee, then I would say have andy and soriano covered…..especially considering andy was going to come even if lee did so we can reasonably assume they had 35 mm plus set aside.

  435. mick December 29th, 2010 at 7:26 pm

    carlo

    andy wouldve gotten a lot less if Lee came….soriano/borass will want at least 10 and andy 15 sounds doable

  436. Carlo December 29th, 2010 at 7:28 pm

    Joe from LI – u didn’t ask me, but my belief is that they really didn’t have a philosophy. I don’t think teams have a specific philosophy they follow. I think its case by case and unfortunately, whatever plans the yanks had got ruined out of deperation.

  437. mick December 29th, 2010 at 7:28 pm

    how about this blockbuster: andy and soriano announced together on New Years Eve/Day in 25m package designed for Lee…think that would be a good PR move to shut the fans up…

  438. mick December 29th, 2010 at 7:30 pm

    andy might take a little less in that deal as soriano/mo will give them the division and a chance to go out a champion

  439. Carlo December 29th, 2010 at 7:31 pm

    Mick – ur likely right andy would have gotten less……but we’re talking 2-3 mm. They weren’t going to nickel and dime him.

    Regardless, Lee at 23 + 10 for andy and we’ve got 33 comfortably left under what was the budget.

    Andy 15 no plus soriano plus even 12 and we still have a few bucks to spend.

    The question is, without lee, do they just save the cash or do they reinvest it in other ways?

  440. Carlo December 29th, 2010 at 7:34 pm

    Sorry for my lack of english. What I meant was andy at 15 plus soriano at 12 (boras factor)……what I wrote earlier was absurd.

  441. mick December 29th, 2010 at 7:34 pm

    They really have to get a knockdown setup guy for Mo, after all they have bard and papsmear.
    Maybe this is the delay…Andy waiting on this move to commit.

  442. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 7:34 pm

    i disagree as i think throwing is a natural hardwired human activity.

    Throwing overhand is not a natural hardwired activity. And throwing something 90 mph is not a natural hardwired activity.

  443. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 7:35 pm

    3. I’d love to here an honest discussion of the Yankees’ philosophy in regards to developing Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain. I don’t think we fans will ever get an honest discussion, but I’d love to hear it.

    What Randy, I, and others are doing is essentially just screaming at the sky. I agree, I would love to sit down with everyone whose decisions impact Hughes and Chamberlain’s future roles and discuss why they are doing X or Y and their plans etc.

    Shame we’ll never get there.

  444. mick December 29th, 2010 at 7:36 pm

    Then you can eliminate the Rauchs and Fuentes of the world and finish the offseason.

  445. Carlo December 29th, 2010 at 7:37 pm

    Andy is coming back. Trust me on that. I still would like to get freddy garcia as well. Between injuries, underperformance, and other unforeseen circumstances, Nova will get starts.

  446. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 7:39 pm

    If humans were meant to throw things overhand like it was nothing, the human shoulder and elbow would not be the way they are today. Just because humans were smart enough to realize they could chuck a rock, doesn’t mean they were not dumb enough to miss the inherent dangers this would cause on shoulder and elbow muscles everywhere :)

  447. mick December 29th, 2010 at 7:40 pm

    Could imagine Vlade as the DH, even Thome, damn Posada.

  448. mick December 29th, 2010 at 7:41 pm

    underhand is the way to go

  449. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 7:44 pm

    Jenny Finch should be good for 400 IP.

  450. Carlo December 29th, 2010 at 7:47 pm

    Truth be told mick, if the Yankees plan is to put Montero in AAA to start the year, then I would give a vlad/manny/damon a one year deal. Spot start in the outfield and DH. Allow Posada to catch twice a week, dh 3 times a week, and there are plenty of at bats and playing time for everyone. I’m not enamored with Jorge as the everyday DH.

  451. Doreen December 29th, 2010 at 7:49 pm

    An article which addresses the unnaturalness of pitching:

    http://www.baseballprospectus......cleid=1658

  452. Doreen December 29th, 2010 at 7:57 pm

    Interesting opinion on pitch counts:

    http://detroit4lyfe.com/articl.....-work.html

  453. randy l. December 29th, 2010 at 7:58 pm

    The Throwing Madonna
    Essays on the Brain by william calvin

    http://williamcalvin.com/bk2/bk2ch4.htm
    ” It probably all started with the invention of one-armed rock throwing, handy for hunting prey without the usual long chase scene. Throwing possibly promoted the first important lateralization of a function to the left brain, an ability to rapidly orchestrate muscles in novel sequences. And I’ll bet that this muscle-sequencing lateralization, most noticeable these days as handedness, was what started up not only toolmaking but language.”

    that’s right. swinging or throwing fast is a brain activity.

  454. Doreen December 29th, 2010 at 8:01 pm

    And interestingly, so far most of the articles I’m finding that discuss innings limits in terms of fantasy baseball.

  455. randy l. December 29th, 2010 at 8:01 pm

    http://williamcalvin.com/bk2/bk2ch4.htm

    “Did Throwing Stones Lead to Bigger Brains? ”

    … though two problems i see with this theory are AJ and Joba :)

  456. Doreen December 29th, 2010 at 8:01 pm

    Randy l -

    but then they invented sling shots to do the job better.

  457. 108 stitches December 29th, 2010 at 8:02 pm

    Doreen :

    Many thanks on the informative article, all of which makes sense. I had read Mike Marshall’s thoughts before but it’s further proof of how unnatural pitching is.

  458. Doreen December 29th, 2010 at 8:03 pm

    Randy l -

    I don’t think it’s throwing that’s unnatural; it’s pitching.

  459. Doreen December 29th, 2010 at 8:05 pm

    108 stitches:

    You’re welcome.

  460. ariel December 29th, 2010 at 8:17 pm

    “if Martin is healthy and gets his stroke back he’s going to help this team a lot…”…..Those are two very big “IFS”! Martin has been, at best, a shadow of his former self the past two years. I do concur with signing him, however, since if he is “back” he will serve the Yankees well, coupled with bringing Montero along at a measured pace. If not, it’s no big deal as there were no really viable options. The negative is that Jorge will see more action behind the plate and that is not good.

    Hopefully, Cashman is not serious about Francis….he is absolutely horrid who simply rode the crest of the Rockies’ wave in 07. He will not survive in the AL East and would make the “Javy deal” look good.

  461. Carlo December 29th, 2010 at 8:21 pm

    What javy deal? U mean the boone logan for melky and vizcaino deal……where atlanta threw in javy vazquez?

  462. Doreen December 29th, 2010 at 8:22 pm

    And because it’s refreshing to read about innings limits and OTHER teams’ pitchers:

    http://www.camdenchat.com/2010.....g-pitchers

    The first part of that article really talks about Verducci’s arbitrary rule of thumb – questions its validity.

  463. Doreen December 29th, 2010 at 8:23 pm

    Bottom line -

    It’s a crap shoot and most teams do their best.

  464. Joe from Long Island December 29th, 2010 at 8:24 pm

    1. Carlo – you may be right, as to a lack of overrall philosophy.

    2. Jerkface – I’d love to have that conversation with Joe Girardi. Ain’t happening, though. We could have randy and Carlo there, as well.

    3. Doreen and randy – the conventional wisdom is that overhand throwing is unnatural. So, take that for what it’s worth.

    4. Watching MLBNetwork, and the greatest calls of all time. (I’m killing time.) Vin Scully is still one of the best, if not the best. Perfect grammar, too, and he does it without a script. Amazing. We will not see/hear his kind again. Kind of like Mariano.

    5. Speaking of Mariano, and not to brag, but my dear wife got me the greatest Christmas gift. A Mariano Rivera signed baseball, part of a last pitch at the old Yankee Stadium display. She knows the way to my heart :)

  465. randy l. December 29th, 2010 at 8:27 pm

    “I don’t think it’s throwing that’s unnatural; it’s pitching.”

    doreen-

    the prehistoric guys probably threw more sidearm.

    when gb7 comes on we’ll ask him.

  466. Carlo December 29th, 2010 at 8:29 pm

    Kudos to your wife on that gift Joe. That’s a big time powerplay by her. You may not see it now, but pretty soon you will hear her say “hey joe, remember that mariano ball I got you, well there’s this really great ——- that I like and think maybe you should get it for me”

  467. Joe from Long Island December 29th, 2010 at 8:34 pm

    Carlo – oh, you’re right about that. :)

    The proceeds went to a local pediatric cancer charity (a long story, there). My wife very graciously puts up with my Yankee and baseball obsession.

  468. Carlo December 29th, 2010 at 8:36 pm

    Can’t think of a better spot for charitable proceeds to go.

  469. Doreen December 29th, 2010 at 8:43 pm

    Randy l -

    alway best to go right to the source! LOL.

  470. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 8:51 pm

    Randy,

    I don’t think anyone is arguing the merits of overhand throwing or any kind of throwing of stones. The point is though, throwing overhand hurts the body. Coordinating all the muscles required probably helped our brain, or whatever, but it also hurts the rest of the body.

    Some college boys developed a shirt an athlete can wear which is hooked up with a bunch of sensors. Its one of those compression undershirts. It monitors all the muscle groups it covers and relays feedback to a computer. If this shirt research pans out, teams will be able to equip their pitchers with that gear and get real-time data on how fatigued they are. If they start relying more on certain muscle groups than others, and hopefully curtail injury.

  471. pat December 29th, 2010 at 8:56 pm

    From Jim Callis, Editor of Baseball America. Hug those prospects! :wink:

    jimcallisBA Yes. @mitchellnj: #Yankees Top 6 Farm System?

  472. Carlo December 29th, 2010 at 8:58 pm

    Top 6? who says top 6? Top 5, top 10, top 20……ok…..top 6, top 12, top 24?

  473. Carlo December 29th, 2010 at 9:00 pm

    The big question to me is what happens to the yankees in the rankings when Montero leaves the prospect pool?

    Not that the rankings mean a heck of a lot, but interesting none the less.

  474. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 9:02 pm

    The big question to me is what happens to the yankees in the rankings when Montero leaves the prospect pool?

    Sanchez will pick up the mantle, and the pitching.

  475. Carlo December 29th, 2010 at 9:05 pm

    If not him then alan horne or jeff marquez……..if that idiot cashman didn’t trade future closer mark melancon we wouldn’t have any worries post mariano.

  476. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 9:13 pm

    Not sure what they have to do with the future rankings of the yankee farm system. Or why Jeff Marquez is being talked about as a top prospect.

  477. Carlo December 29th, 2010 at 9:15 pm

    Hahahah – nevermind man…..when u said sanchez will pick up the mantle I thought u were being a wiseguy and referring to Humberto Sanchez from our discussion the other day.

  478. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 9:18 pm

    Here is something better for thought. The Yankees which graced the top 100 list for prospects in the past 10 years.

    2001
    10. Nick Johnson
    27. Alfonso Soriano
    46. D’Angelo Jimenez
    66. Adrian Hernandez

    2002
    9. Drew Henson
    13. Nick Johnson
    37. Brandon Claussen
    67. Juan Rivera
    76. John-Ford Griffin

    2003
    6. Jose Contreras
    8. Hideki Matsui
    55. Juan Rivera

    2004
    41. Dioner Navarro

    2005
    36. Eric Duncan

    2006
    39. Philip Hughes
    86. Eric Duncan

    2007
    4. Philip Hughes
    37. Jose Tabata
    57. Humberto Sanchez
    75. Joba Chamberlain
    100. Dellin Betances

    2008
    3. Joba Chamberlain
    37. Jose Tabata
    41. Austin Jackson
    45. Ian Kennedy

    2009
    36. Austin Jackson
    38. Jesus Montero
    92. Andrew Brackman

    2010
    4. Jesus Montero
    86. Austin Romine

    The early half is dominated by international players and some MLB regulars. How will the latter half stack up?

  479. Carlo December 29th, 2010 at 9:30 pm

    Underwhelming list with a lot of flame outs and never made its. Uninspired by it.

  480. West Coast Yankee Fan December 29th, 2010 at 9:35 pm

    I always had my suspicions that the term “developing pitchers” was overused and often misunderstood. I think some equate that to pitching a certain number of innings in the minor leagues, learning one’s craft so to speak by spending time at each level, etc. Working your way up learning as you go.

    This has been especially true when discussing Joba here; with many maintaining that he was rushed to the majors and thrown in the deep end without being allowed the time “to develop”. I have always thought generalizations like this are dangerous and depend entirely upon the specific pitcher and their individual skill set.

    This is good stuff from Mike Axisa at RAB on this. Here are some excerpts and the link.

    “I did some digging around and it turns out that quite a few top pitching prospects skipped the Triple-A level before jumping into the big leagues, including current Yankee ace CC Sabathia. He made ten High-A starts in 2000 before being promoted at mid-season and making another 17 starts with Double-A, and the next year he made the Indians’ rotation as a 20-year-old right out of Spring Training. His lone career Triple-A start was a rehab outing in 2006.

    “A.J. Burnett made the jump from Double-A to the majors in 1999, but he went back to the minors to start the 2000 season before resurfacing in June. He made all of one Triple-A start before sticking in the show.”

    “Some of the other notable big leaguers that skipped Triple-A all together:

    * Justin Verlander (just 20 minor league starts total, seven in Double-A)

    * Mat Latos (nine Double-A starts)

    * Clayton Kershaw (16 Double-A starts)

    * Josh Beckett (13 Double-A starts)

    * Scott Kazmir (eight Double-A starts) Tim Lincecum (five), Roy Oswalt (five), and Cole Hamels (three) all made a very limited number of Triple-A starts before sticking in the big leagues.

    * Rick Porcello was a high school kid that famously jumped from High-A to the big leagues in 2009. Half-a-decade earlier, the Tigers did the exact same thing with Jeremy Bonderman.

    *Johan Santana jumped from High-A to the big leagues as well, but he was a Rule 5 Draft pick, so his situation was a little different. I’m certain there are more examples out there, but these are just a few.

    http://riveraveblues.com/

  481. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 9:41 pm

    WCYF-

    The AAA level is very overrated IMHO. A star can jump from AA directly to the majors, AAA is more of a way station for those who can be useful at the major league level but aren’t destined for greatness.

  482. West Coast Yankee Fan December 29th, 2010 at 9:42 pm

    It seems to be the case WYH with some pitchers of note.

  483. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 9:47 pm

    I’m not knocking AAA as a place for those, especially pitchers, with less than stellar talent to learn their craft. With hitters I don’t think AAA matters much at all.

  484. West Coast Yankee Fan December 29th, 2010 at 9:48 pm

    It doesn’t seem to have mattered to some very good pitchers either.

  485. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 9:51 pm

    WCYF-

    If you can throw a fastball where you want it to go, and a breaking ball where you want it to go, what do you need AAA for? Some pitchers are just born with that ability.

  486. West Coast Yankee Fan December 29th, 2010 at 10:03 pm

    I thought it was an interesting piece; I didn’t know offhand all those guys went from AA to the show with so few starts in the minors. It seems to be a very individual thing and relevant in the context of all the talk here about Joba and Hughes not getting enough time in the minors and the Yankees philosophy in developing pitchers. It seems to suggest there is no philosophy; that it’s a case-by-case decision based on the perceived merits of a particular pitcher.

  487. GreenBeret7 December 29th, 2010 at 10:07 pm

    If you’ll notice, most of those pitchers were with teams that were bad or rebuilding. Oakland is another team that runs their starters up early.

  488. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 10:10 pm

    “If you’ll notice, most of those pitchers were with teams that were bad or rebuilding.”

    Possibly. But those teams also have the first picks – these kind of pitchers aren’t exactly sleepers.

  489. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 10:11 pm

    10. Nick Johnson – A good MLB regular
    27. Alfonso Soriano – A good MLB regular, 40/40 player
    37. Brandon Claussen – Traded for Aaron Boone, which meant a world series. Pretty good!
    67. Juan Rivera – A solid MLB outfielder, not great
    76. John-Ford Griffin – Traded for Jeff Weaver, ruined a WS, boo!!
    6. Jose Contreras – Contreras was a disaster, but at least had 1 good season in his career
    8. Hideki Matsui – A great guy
    41. Dioner Navarro – An MLB regular catcher, but not very good
    39. Philip Hughes – currently in an MLB rotation
    37. Jose Tabata – Currently an MLB outfielder
    75. Joba Chamberlain – Currently a reliever
    21. Austin Jackson – MLB outfielder
    45. Ian Kennedy – MLB starter

    Out of all the top prospects, I guess some of them amounted to something. I think the latter half will prove much stronger than the first.

  490. West Coast Yankee Fan December 29th, 2010 at 10:13 pm

    Good observation. Whatever the reason they get called up, it does seem to suggest that time in AAA is not all that necessary; depending on the talent level. Will be interesting to see what the Yankees do in this context with Betances and Banuelos when they do their time in AA provided they continue to thrive.

    And, encouragingly, as Axisa pointed out:

    “Thankfully the Yankees have some arms in Triple-A they could turn to first. Hector Noesi and Andrew Brackman are already on the 40-man, and David Phelps can be added without a problem. We can even add Adam Warren to that mix as well”.

  491. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 10:16 pm

    “Will be interesting to see what the Yankees do in this context with Betances and Banuelos when they do their time in AA provided they continue to thrive.”

    Yes, but I think these guys need to be rated higher than they tend to actually be to be good candidates to make the AA-majors jump.

  492. Carlo December 29th, 2010 at 10:21 pm

    Regardless of whether either is good enough to jump from AA to the bigs means very little. Neither have the innings under their belts. Will be B’s rules for 3 years. Can’t be done.

  493. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 10:22 pm

    “Neither have the innings under their belts.”

    Probably right, but how many innings did Bob Feller have “under his belt” before he pitched in the majors? Just saying.

  494. West Coast Yankee Fan December 29th, 2010 at 10:26 pm

    Why? It depends on their ability and how they do in AA. Kershaw had 16 Double-A starts, 86 IP and Beckett 13 Double-A starts – 78 IP.

  495. West Coast Yankee Fan December 29th, 2010 at 10:27 pm

    Two season each in AA probably.

  496. Crawdaddy December 29th, 2010 at 10:39 pm

    After what happened with Joba and Hughes, I expect the Yankees to be more careful developing Banuelos and Betances.

  497. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 10:41 pm

    After what happened with Joba and Hughes, I expect the Yankees to be more careful developing Banuelos and Betances.

    Isn’t it the babying of Hughes and Joba which caused the Yankees to botch their development? They should throw the B’s into the fire. Make men out of em.

  498. Crawdaddy December 29th, 2010 at 10:42 pm

    IMO, I think the goal for both in 2011 is to get a healthy 150 innings out of his pitcher whether it’s all in AA ball or combined with some late season action at SWB.

  499. Crawdaddy December 29th, 2010 at 10:43 pm

    “Isn’t it the babying of Hughes and Joba which caused the Yankees to botch their development? They should throw the B’s into the fire. Make men out of em.”

    Nope, I think they rushed both pitchers in 2007 and it caused problems for them in 2008.

  500. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 10:46 pm

    Can you rush a pitcher that is slated to pitch that year and sitting in AAA dominating fools? No. They did not rush Hughes. They were not extra extra careful with him, but he was certainly not rushed.

  501. Crawdaddy December 29th, 2010 at 10:50 pm

    “Can you rush a pitcher that is slated to pitch that year and sitting in AAA dominating fools? No. They did not rush Hughes. They were not extra extra careful with him, but he was certainly not rushed.”

    That’s your opinion, but I disagree. If I had my way after viewing what happened in 2007, I would’ve left Hughes get more starts than five of them at SWB in 2007 which included a couple of starts during his injury rehab.

    Joba, I would’ve left in Trenton to finish out the year as a starter or brought him up to SWB in late August to pitch in their playoffs.

  502. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 10:52 pm

    “That’s your opinion, but I disagree. If I had my way after viewing what happened in 2007, I would’ve left Hughes get more starts than five of them at SWB in 2007 which included a couple of starts during his injury rehab.”

    I understand the sentiment, but there is no evidence at all that more AAA starts improves major league durability.

  503. Crawdaddy December 29th, 2010 at 10:53 pm

    Looking back my preference would be the following:

    Hughes would’ve made his ML debut in August/September, 2007.

    Joba ML debut mid-season 2008.

  504. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 10:55 pm

    If Hughes is throwing a no hitter in his 2nd start in August or May, it doesn’t change whats going to happen to his hammy. He overextended throwing a curveball. It doesn’t matter when he debuts, you’re throwing a no-no and you try to bury a pitch and your body doesn’t respond. AAA experience isn’t going to mitigate that.

    Hughes was obviously ready, given his first starts, the stuff and poise he showed.

  505. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 10:56 pm

    And honestly, I think getting a player to the big leagues with the better accomodations, strength and conditioning, and nutrition is more important than busing it around Philly throwing against scrubs.

  506. Crawdaddy December 29th, 2010 at 10:57 pm

    “I understand the sentiment, but there is no evidence at all that more AAA starts improves major league durability.”

    IMO, there is a major difference in stress on the body when pitching minor league innings versus major league innings. I think neither pitcher was allowed to accumulate enough minor league innings as starters before making their ML debuts.

  507. Crawdaddy December 29th, 2010 at 10:58 pm

    “And honestly, I think getting a player to the big leagues with the better accomodations, strength and conditioning, and nutrition is more important than busing it around Philly throwing against scrubs.”

    I respect your opinion, but I don’t agree with it in regard to Hughes. I don’t think his body was ML ready in late April when he hurt himself.

  508. Crawdaddy December 29th, 2010 at 11:00 pm

    Getting back to Banuelos and Betances. IMO, you won’t see them in Yankee Stadium in 2011, unless it’s just to bring them up to soak up the atmosphere in September without being on the roster.

  509. West Coast Yankee Fan December 29th, 2010 at 11:00 pm

    It seems as if Axisa’s data above “suggests” that 80-90 innings in AA, (and no AAA), is more than adequate for talented, above average pitchers.

  510. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 11:04 pm

    “Getting back to Banuelos and Betances. IMO, you won’t see them in Yankee Stadium in 2011, unless it’s just to bring them up to soak up the atmosphere in September without being on the roster.”

    I do think you are right about that, despite the hypothetical disagreements about AAA experience.

  511. Crawdaddy December 29th, 2010 at 11:05 pm

    Neither Banuelos or Betances has thrown 130 innings in a single season. If you think the Yankees are going to push them 180 innings or more including some major league innings then you haven’t been paying attention to what they did with Hughes last season.

  512. randy l. December 29th, 2010 at 11:08 pm

    “Hughes was obviously ready, given his first starts, the stuff and poise he showed.”

    jerkface-

    i check in three hours later and you who have never set foot in a bullpen to take part in pitcher conditioning, profess know everything about it.

    my neck kind of hurts tonight. could you do me a favor and do a quick google search and read up on it and get back to me. it’ll save me going to a doctor who wasted all that time in med school.

  513. Crawdaddy December 29th, 2010 at 11:10 pm

    “I do think you are right about that, despite the hypothetical disagreements about AAA experience.”

    It’s not so much the AAA experience I’m focusing on as it is the number of innings pitched in a single season. Hughes only pitched above 100 innings one time prior to 2007. I prefer my young pitchers to have at least two seasons above 100 inninigs before placing them in their major league rotation. It’s just my preference as a baseball fan.

  514. blake December 29th, 2010 at 11:13 pm

    The difference between AA and AAA is more about experience than talent. Skipping AAA really isn’t that big a deal but Betances and Banuelos need more innings at Trenton first and foremost. As mentioned before, the goal for them this year should be 150-160 healthy innings above AA whether that be at Trenton or SWB. That should put them in a position to fight for a.rotation spot at some point in 2012.

  515. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 11:15 pm

    Bullpen Catcher, M.D.

  516. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 11:16 pm

    If only I had helped Jim Hardin stretch, then I’d be an expert on Hughes’ hamstring.

  517. Crawdaddy December 29th, 2010 at 11:17 pm

    “The difference between AA and AAA is more about experience than talent. Skipping AAA really isn’t that big a deal but Betances and Banuelos need more innings at Trenton first and foremost. As mentioned before, the goal for them this year should be 150-160 healthy innings above AA whether that be at Trenton or SWB. That should put them in a position to fight for a.rotation spot at some point in 2012.”

    That’s all I’m saying.

  518. West Coast Yankee Fan December 29th, 2010 at 11:18 pm

    Blake – just curious what 150-160 IP is based upon. As mentioned earlier, Clayton Kershaw had 86 IP in AA and Josh Beckett 78 IP in AA. Then they went right to the big leagues, no AAA.

  519. Wave Your Hat December 29th, 2010 at 11:19 pm

    With Nova, Phelps, Mitchell, Noesi, Warren and Brackman in the mix for 2011, there’s no need to push Betances or Banuelos.

  520. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 11:20 pm

    Betances is poised to take the Kershaw route. Kershaw’s high was 122 IP, he spent 60 innings in AA and got called up to the bigs. Banuelos has only ever pitched 100 innings, so I’d hold him over until for 2012 because realistically getting 130 innings out of a pitcher isn’t fantastic.

  521. West Coast Yankee Fan December 29th, 2010 at 11:20 pm

    Have to run. Look forward to reading what you all have to say later.

  522. Crawdaddy December 29th, 2010 at 11:22 pm

    “Blake – just curious what 150-160 IP is based upon. As mentioned earlier, Clayton Kershaw had 86 IP in AA and Josh Beckett 78 IP in AA. Then they went right to the big leagues, no AAA.”

    Each pitcher is different, both pitching ability and physical/mental makeup. Furthermore, who’s to say that the Dodgers just go lucky with Kershaw and that perhaps Beckett’s numerous physical problems are due to him being rushed earlier in his career.

  523. blake December 29th, 2010 at 11:22 pm

    WCYF,

    A typical 5th starter will throw 180 or so innings. For them to be able to do that you’d like for them to have thrown 150 or so innings in a season at some point prior….neither guy has done that yet. Im talking about total innings…..I don’t have the numbers in front of me but Im guessing Kershaw and Beckett had more innings than that total in a season before being called up to the big leagues.

  524. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 11:23 pm

    that perhaps Beckett’s numerous physical problems are due to him being rushed earlier in his career.

    I dunno if pitching more in AAA would solve his blister issue.

    Blake, Kershaw had very few innings in the minors. 122 as I said above.

  525. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 11:26 pm

    beckett had 140.

  526. Crawdaddy December 29th, 2010 at 11:27 pm

    “Betances is poised to take the Kershaw route. Kershaw’s high was 122 IP, he spent 60 innings in AA and got called up to the bigs. Banuelos has only ever pitched 100 innings, so I’d hold him over until for 2012 because realistically getting 130 innings out of a pitcher isn’t fantastic.”

    Again, I disagree. With all the physical problems they had with Betances, they will not push him to the majors in 2011. Furthermore, he still has a lot of basic stuff to work on as a minor league pitcher like fielding his position properly and throwing over to first base without the errors. The 2011 goal with him should be to get 150-160 healthy innings and that he’s able to competently field his position.

  527. blake December 29th, 2010 at 11:28 pm

    Jerkface,

    Ok….that’s the exception rather than the rule though I would say. Id rather just let them build innings this year and err on the side of caution and then if things go.well let them have at it in 2012.

  528. ray from maine December 29th, 2010 at 11:30 pm

    Beckett has indeed had some injury problems and I could be mistaken but I think it has been a couple years since he has had blister problems. In the last two years it seems that he had more back problems.

  529. Crawdaddy December 29th, 2010 at 11:33 pm

    Good night all!

  530. rob1876 December 29th, 2010 at 11:34 pm

    Ooo… I don’t know what to say

  531. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 11:35 pm

    Ok….that’s the exception rather than the rule though I would say. Id rather just let them build innings this year and err on the side of caution and then if things go.well let them have at it in 2012.

    yea I get that. I just think, for pitchers who are injury prone will babying them do anything to prevent future injuries? Perhaps they are just injury prone and should not be pitching major league baseballs. I’m not saying be wildly negligent, but I think the difference between minor league physical activity and major league physical activity is overblown and as long as work loads are not vastly increased things will work out more often than not. I do agree with Crawdaddy that Betances needs to work on his fielding and that is indeed a viable reason to leave him in the minors. I only caught a few games when he was in tampa, but the reports from Trenton obviously stress his less than stellar work in that area.

    However, if Betances is cruising and the Yankees need a starter in August I wouldn’t be opposed to him entering the majors.

  532. blake December 29th, 2010 at 11:40 pm

    Jerkface,

    Yea those are all interesting questions that I think everyone is still searching for answers on. The whole difference between throwing a minor league inning and a major league one is tough to quantify …..is there a difference developmentally? Who knows.

    Night all.

  533. randy l. December 29th, 2010 at 11:40 pm

    even if you forget the physical injury problem rushing of hughes., how can anyone say he developed his change up at the mlb level better than he would have had he spent a year at triple a developing it.

    i think it’s crazy to say that a young pitcher can commit to a pitch that they need to learn while they are in the big leagues.

    how can they stay with it while they are getting hammered with it ?

    at triple a , just like in spring training, they can keep throwing it even if they are losing games because of it.

    hughes may never develop all his pitches at the mlb level and develop his full potential.

    joba used to have four pitches.

    where’d they go?

    maybe if he had stayed at triple a longer, he might still have four pitches.

  534. randy l. December 29th, 2010 at 11:51 pm

    “Probably right, but how many innings did Bob Feller have “under his belt” before he pitched in the majors? Just saying.”

    about the same as david clyde.

  535. Crawdaddy December 29th, 2010 at 11:52 pm

    One more point before I sign off for the night. Betances and Banuelos still have developmental things to work on before coming to the big leagues like consistency with their secondary pitches and their fastball command. I’m hoping 2011 becomes a breakout year for both of them in that regard as well as staying healthy for an entire season.

  536. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 11:56 pm

    how can anyone say he developed his change up at the mlb level better than he would have had he spent a year at triple a developing it.

    -

    Hughes had a working change up in 07, he threw some nasty ones in his nono, unfortunately he lost the feel for it. Theres nothing saying he wouldn’t have lost the feel for it anyways if he were in the minors.

    And as for Joba, he used his pitches just fine. He worked with his fastball, 60%, his best pitch 20% Slider, then the other 20% is for his curve and change. Thats just fine. Its not like the Yankees are g oing to say “Your pitches should be more plus-lier, we’re gonna force you to throw all these pitches all the time in the minors”

  537. randy l. December 29th, 2010 at 11:56 pm

    ” Betances and Banuelos still have developmental things to work on before coming to the big leagues like consistency with their secondary pitches and their fastball command.”

    couldn’t agree more.

  538. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 11:57 pm

    And I wonder how any pitchers ever get better at the major league level, with how you talk. How does anyone introduce a new pitch.

    Did you know Kershaw has almost completely scrapped the curve he came to the majors with in favor of a slider he pulled out of nowhere?

  539. Jerkface December 29th, 2010 at 11:59 pm

    It must have been so hard for CC to change the grip on his change up at Eiland’s behest, midseason and all.

  540. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 12:04 am

    Lincecum has added a slider out of no where. I guess he didn’t need to sit in the minors to get that pitch though.

  541. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 12:05 am

    I think what you want Randy, is an organizational philosophy which stresses the change up. Its the hardest pitch to master, but very effective. And apparently every other pitch in baseball can be picked up during the season.

  542. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 12:07 am

    Oh snap

    @jimcallisBA: He’d be #Royals No. 1 prospect. @Diooony Where would you rank Jesus Montero on KC’s top 10? #Yankees

  543. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 12:09 am

    Maybe the Yankees need to change draft strategies, apparently every other team in the majors can push prospects, have them learn pitches in the majors, not worry about them snapping their hammies because they happen to be facing a major league lineup.

    The Yankees have drafted a bunch of half-wits I guess.

  544. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 12:14 am

    “Hughes had a working change up in 07, he threw some nasty ones in his nono, unfortunately he lost the feel for it. Theres nothing saying he wouldn’t have lost the feel for it anyways if he were in the minors.”

    what kind of argument is that?

    if he was in the minors he could work on it in games.

    he can”t throw it in the majors if it’s getting clobbered.

    seriously, hughes is probably not ever going to have his full array of pitches because of skipping developmental stages .

  545. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 12:22 am

    jerkface-

    so exactly why do you even think the yankees have a triple a team ?

    according to you, any player who’s good enough and gets guys out in double a should go straight to the majors.

    what exactly is the purpose of triple A in jerkface’s world ?

    .

  546. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 12:22 am

    what kind of argument is that?

    if he was in the minors he could work on it in games.

    he can”t throw it in the majors if it’s getting clobbered.

    What do you mean what kind of argument is it? He had a working change up in 07 that he threw a normal percentage of the time. He got injured, and in 08 and 09 hardly threw it. In 2010 he started to throw it more. Its not the same one he had, but its a change up.

    The argument is that putting him in the majors did not mean does not have a change up. Hughes said he just lost the feel for his old one. What if he loses it in the minors? Do we keep him in the minors as he cuts them up with curve/fastball hoping he finds it?

    If a pitcher has no workable pitches, I understand putting him in the minors. Hughes had 3 workable pitches every year in the majors. You let him develop the others like every other starter / reliever works on pitches in the majors.

  547. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 12:25 am

    so exactly why do you even think the yankees have a triple a team ?

    according to you, any player who’s good enough and gets guys out in double a should go straight to the majors.

    what exactly is the purpose of triple A in jerkface’s world ?

    Triple A is to store players who don’t have a roster spot in the majors. As well as a holding area to bump prospects up who would block other prospects moving up the ranks. Additionally, its a good way for not A+ prospects to cut their teeth.

    Not everyone is Phil Hughes or Clayton Kershaw.

    Obviously some pitchers with less skill and stuff will benefit from spending time at AAA.

    I don’t see how Phil Hughes minor league track record and scouting reports and major league performance suggests a pitcher that needed to hump it in AAA.

  548. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 12:27 am

    And actually scratch that. He hardly threw it in 09, he threw it just fine in 08. Lester threw his change up 5% of the time each year until last year where he bumped it up to 11%. hughes threw it that much in 07,08. Working on a new change up he threw it 3.5% of the time in 2010. He didn’t have it in 09.

  549. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 12:31 am

    Hughes was seemingly able to come up with a cutter, a pitch he throws with conviction, out of nowhere.

    :x

  550. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 12:38 am

    Even anecdotal stories suggest that pitchers can add pitches. How often do marginal pitchers get told to try something new by a pitching coach or teammate and reinvent themselves? Adding a split finger or something similar.

    Hughes ought to go with a split anyways, but that puts undue stress on the arm.

  551. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 12:44 am

    Everyones favorite david price completely reversed the pitching tendency of his slider and curve between last year and this year. Danks ditched his curve after year 1 and went with a cutter.

    How are these pitchers finding the time to make these pitches work?

  552. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 12:47 am

    You’re telling me that David Price threw his curve 5% of the time, then somehow found the confidence to throw it 15% of the time the next season? And he didn’t spend any time in the minors to do this???

    Shocking.

  553. Pat M. December 30th, 2010 at 1:18 am

    Jerkface….You just posted 7 consecutive posts….I think you broke Betsy’s record of 5 with room to spare…..You make a compelling argument, however I didn’t at the time when Phil was called up out of desperation but Cup is right and it’s supported by several of the scouts that you disagree with on past topics…..

  554. Nick in SF December 30th, 2010 at 2:21 am

    I agree with randy.

    Neanderthal Man didn’t last because he failed to publish his rock-throwing philospohy on google.

  555. Mike Ri December 30th, 2010 at 7:07 am

    Good Morning ! … .. SI’s power rankings have the Yanks at number 6…. i won’t mention who sits at one.

    via- Si.com-

    No team pinned its offseason on obtaining one player quite like the Yankees did with Lee. Without him — and with Pettitte still mulling retirement — New York faces the prospect of opening the season with A.J. Burnett, Ivan Nova and Sergio Mitre as its Nos. 3-4-5 starters. But this is no news flash to say that won’t happen. While signing Crawford and trading an outfielder might have been Plan B, one has to assume general manager Brian Cashman has a Plan C or D, which likely will mean offering Pettitte enough money that he returns and then trading for a veteran, perhaps someone like the Cardinals’ Chris Carpenter, who has one expensive guaranteed year left on his contract. At least they retained Mariano Rivera and Derek Jeter, though the latter’s negotiations included quite a bit of acrimony.

  556. blake December 30th, 2010 at 7:23 am

    I think Carpenter could be made available at some point this season but I just can’t see it this winter without a big over pay. The Cards should be competitve in that division……if they aren’t by July then Im sure they’ll look to move him but id actually pick them to win the central.

  557. Mike Ri December 30th, 2010 at 7:29 am

    I agree Blake. I too have them winning the Centeral
    ——————————————————————————-

    A.J. Burnett, Ivan Nova and Sergio Mitre as its Nos. 3-4-5 starters-

    I got to be honest .. that above sentence makes my stomach turn a bit. Although i can’t Imagine AJ being as bad… ( at least i hope not )

  558. blake December 30th, 2010 at 7:34 am

    Ill be shocked if Mitre is in the rotation to start the season. He very well could be but I still think either Pettte will come back or Cashman will find a way to make a move. I also think the Yanks might be lurking on Soriano.

  559. blake December 30th, 2010 at 7:38 am

    Lot of talk on Soria to the Yankees this morning on first pitch….other than the quotes from Soria it seems like pure speculation as I can’t find anything else about it. They were suggesting Joba + for him…..I think the “+” in that equation would have to be significant unless the Royals have confidence they could make Joba a starter.

  560. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 7:38 am

    Blake-

    Out of curiosity.

    Why do you think the whole Pettitte thing is taking this long to be settled ?

    Money ?

    The Clemens thing ?

    He is not sure he can hold up ?

    He wants to retire ?

    What’s your take ?

    I find it kind of surprising especially considering the need.

  561. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 7:40 am

    Blake-

    As long as we do not have to include Jesus, Man-Ban, or GGBG I would do that deal in a heartbeat.

  562. blake December 30th, 2010 at 7:44 am

    MTU,

    I really don’t know. Maybe he really is.considering retirement this.time.and just wants to be sure. Maybe he wants to see what other moves the Yanks can make.before he commits ….I just have a feeling that when its all.said and done he’ll be back. He’s still got gas left in the tank and he’s about another good season from.serious HOF consideration.

  563. blake December 30th, 2010 at 7:45 am

    MTU,

    I would put Betances and Sanchez on that list as well…..if they can get him without those players then great. Otherwise I say just pay Soriano.

  564. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 7:47 am

    Blake-

    I find it curious.

    It’s really not that complicated IMO.

    The need is glaring. The Yanks should be more than over ripe to pony up.

    I don’t see any other big moves, other than a reliever, that AP could be waiting on.

  565. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 7:49 am

    “I think the “+” in that equation would have to be significant unless the Royals have confidence they could make Joba a starter”

    Seem to me it would have to be a lot of “+”. Not certain why anyone would think Chamberlain is especially desireable from the Royals standpoint. He’s already arb eligible, hasn’t been very good recently, and IMO has a questionable commitment to staying in shape and honing his craft. Further, the Royals don’t stand to be any good before Chamberlain hits free agency. I think the Royals will be looking for a high end close to MLB ready hurler and a couple of secondary guys (Nunez types).

  566. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 7:49 am

    Blake-

    Not me. Both of those guys are expendable for a guy like Soria.

    I would like to retain Man-Ban as he’s a lefty.

  567. blake December 30th, 2010 at 7:50 am

    MTU,

    Yea I know….maybe he just wanted to get the Hollidays over with and then make a decision. Who knows.

  568. blake December 30th, 2010 at 7:53 am

    Mell,

    I agree. Joba will cost nearly as much as Soria soon. Id guess they would have more interest in Nova to be honest.

    MTU,

    Im not trading Betances upside for a relief pitcher when one that’s nearly as good is out there as a FA.

  569. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 7:53 am

    Blake-

    Yeah. Unfortunately. Who knows.

    The Yankees should have made their best pitch long ago it would seem.

    Perhaps they did and were just left in limbo again.

  570. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 7:54 am

    “It’s really not that complicated IMO”

    Gotta walk a mile in his shoes before making that assessment, don’t you think? If he’s seriously considering retirement, what the Yankees need is probably not going to be especially important to him, and it really shouldn’t be.

  571. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 7:56 am

    Blake:

    I don’t Nova gets you Soria. Even if packaged with some other guys. He’s not a centerpiece guy.

  572. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 7:58 am

    Blake-

    Couple of things to consider:

    Soria is a better and younger version of Soriano.

    Betances, etc. are promising but they are only prospects. We have
    numerous other excellent righties in the system.

    It takes something to get something when it comes to a guy like Soria.

    Soriano will be expensive in years and $; Costs a first rounder; Has a
    bad injury history.

    Just my take.

    Ain’t happening anyway.

    ;)

  573. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 7:59 am

    I don’t THINK Nova gets you Soria.

  574. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 8:02 am

    Mell-

    I understand what you are saying but he has had plenty of time IMO.

    And if the tea leaves strongly suggest retirement why hasn’t Cashman made a move for someone like Millwood, etc. ?

    He can’t possibly be thinking of going into the season with AJ and 2 rooks can he ?

  575. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 8:02 am

    Andy has admitted to using HGH. As of now, no admitted users of PEDs will be voted into the HOF. It is going to be some years before the voters ease up on that, if only because they will, at some point, end up with a class of HOF-eligible players who have at least a sketchy history with PEDs and they can’t have a year where no one is voted in – or, in the alternative, players who normally wouldn’t sniff the HOF are voted in.

    In light of that, I’d wonder if Andy is even thinking about building up his numbers to that he can get closer to being HOF-worthy.

    And, if one of the things causing him to hesitate about re-upping in 2011 is rehabbing the pulled groin, and how grueling that was, and how long it took, well, then, I can certainly understand his hesitation. Remember, he was always leery about his ELBOW being the problem. What betrayed him was not his arm, but his legs, and he couldn’t keep his legs strong with a groin injury. Yet his arm was perfectly fine. Also, when he did finally make it back to the rotation, his back was giving him problems in his last starts, including his stellar start against Texas.

    This is about whether it is worth putting all the work into getting ready to pitch, when something like a groin or hamstring injury – non-pitching-arm related – can crop up at any time and wipe out a significant part of the season and make it near impossible to come back strong (because you can’t keep you lower half strong). I don’t think it’s about money – the Yankees will pay him. And at this point I think it’s not as much about family (I think it’s been reported that his family would support his pitching one more year). It is about health.

    And, the Clemens trial is also a factor.

  576. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 8:05 am

    Doreen-

    You may indeed be right about AP but those items should not take more than a month to decide FWIS.

    They are relatively straightforward issues.

  577. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 8:06 am

    Because you have to remember how prideful Pettitte is. And you have to recall his statement of feeling useless because he couldn’t work. He couldn’t help the team and he couldn’t do his job.

  578. blake December 30th, 2010 at 8:08 am

    I don’t think Nova would get Soria as a centerpiecd either…..I was just saying I think the Royals may have more interest in him than Joba.

  579. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 8:09 am

    MTU

    It might be straightforward for you or me, but it may not be as straightforward for him.

    And in spite of his family being behind his returning, he may really be ready to retire. And so now, it’s not his family’s decision, but his alone.

  580. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 8:11 am

    Doreen-

    If he’s ready to retire then he should retire, no ?

    Either way, I do not understand Cashman’s paralysis.

  581. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 8:12 am

    Also, though I admit I may be way off base here, I think Andy has already made his decision and told the Yankees that he is going to retire, and they are just not announcing it in order to not further compromise their position in the marketplace.

  582. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 8:13 am

    MTU -

    The week between Christmas and New Years, does anyone truly expect anything to get done?

    And just because we do not see any fruits of his labor does not mean Cashman has been paralyzed.

  583. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 8:13 am

    MTU:

    He’s had quite a bit of time. Certainly easier last year when he was locked up by early December. However, in the prior offseason, he wasn’t locked up til 1/26. I don’t know whether that was more a function of being torn about coming back or somewhat contentious negotiations (that was the sing for his supper contract). Of course in that offseason they had already locked up Teixiera, Sabathia and Burnett, so the fan base was in a state of euphoria and probably not as concerned about Pettitte’s return.

    To your 2nd point, I have a hard time believing he’d go into 2011 with the rotation as presently comprised. That said, I’m still fairly optimistic that Pettitte will return.

  584. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 8:16 am

    “I don’t think Nova would get Soria as a centerpiecd either…..I was just saying I think the Royals may have more interest in him than Joba”

    Probably, but if Soria is the topic of conversation, there’s little reason to believe that they won’t be looking for something centered around either Betances or Banuelos.

  585. austinmac December 30th, 2010 at 8:17 am

    Doreen,

    I suspect that is a good Pettitte assessment. I find it unlikely he will return.

  586. upstate kate December 30th, 2010 at 8:17 am

    I think you may be right Doreen, unfortunately.
    Andy has reportedly said not to wait on his decision, so I don’t see that he is holding up the Yankees plans.
    My hope is he comes back one more year. I think he still has more in the tank and it would provide the fans the opportunity to say farewell.

  587. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 8:17 am

    This is what gets me.

    No one has any idea what calls Cashman has made; no idea whether he’s actually proposed some of the trades that have been guessed at here and been turned down; no idea what other teams are asking in return that Cashman considers overpaying.

    And yet, Cashman is portrayed as if he is sitting home watching “Deal or No Deal.”

  588. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 8:21 am

    Sorry Doreen.

    I do not agree.

    I would describe his behavior as nearly paralytic considering the problems the Yankees face should AP not return.

    There are numerous possibilites out there.

    I do not think a stork is going to drop a miracle in Cashman’s lap.

    He has been curiously passive in the light of the challenge.

    That’s my 2 cents.

  589. Mike Ri December 30th, 2010 at 8:21 am

    Doreen

    Also, though I admit I may be way off base here, I think Andy has already made his decision and told the Yankees that he is going to retire, and they are just not announcing it in order to not further compromise their position in the marketplace.

    ———

    I agree…. this has been my thought for some time now.

  590. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 8:23 am

    upstate kate -

    I hope he comes back, too. And it would be nice if the fans could give him a proper send-off.

    But, knowing this fan base, what if he comes back and he pitches nowhere near like he did last season? What then? What kind of send-off does he get? What if he gets injured at some point and never makes it back, expect maybe for an inning in the last week of September at the Stadium so people can say goodbye?

    They’ll have an Andy Pettitte day after he retires. It is very rare that a Paul O’Neill retirement happens, I think.

  591. MaineYankee December 30th, 2010 at 8:23 am

    Doreen

    I think it’s in #21. :lol:

  592. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 8:24 am

    “He has been curiously passive in the light of the challenge”

    He has to appear passive, MTU. Doesn’t mean he isn’t working the phones though.

  593. upstate kate December 30th, 2010 at 8:26 am

    Knowing that in 09, before the post season was even over, Cash was already making deals, I find it very hard to believe that he is sitting passively by, waiting on anyone.

  594. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 8:27 am

    MTU -

    I’m not looking for a miracle.

    And, again, I challenge anyone here to say they know for a fact that Cashman has been sitting on his hands doing nothing.

    No one knows.

    Cashman said he is going to be patient and he is not going to make an ill-advised move just because the fanbase is hungry for something, anything, to happen.

    If it takes until the day before spring training, what does anyone care? Because between now and then the Yankees are not favorites? Because there’s nothing to talk about that hasn’t been said a zillion times?

  595. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 8:29 am

    Mell-

    The lack of a result tells me all I need to know for now.

    I’m results-oriented. I could give a fig if he’s made 1000 calls.

    And he should be anything but passive Mell.

    Lee blew a hole in his plans and he still hasn’t recovered.

  596. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 8:29 am

    MaineYankee -

    LOL!!!

  597. MaineYankee December 30th, 2010 at 8:29 am

    MTU

    You need to go take a hike. A long one. Till the beginning of the season. :lol:

    It will help keep you from sitting around stressing about what you perceive that Cashman isn’t doing.

  598. Bronx Jeers December 30th, 2010 at 8:29 am

    Lets all hope there’s a “Black Friday” or whatever for starting pitching.

  599. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 8:30 am

    Doreen-

    No one is asking for an “Ill-advised” move but there had to have been some good ones to make by now.

    Perhaps, he is being too picky considering the situation ?

  600. MaineYankee December 30th, 2010 at 8:31 am

    Doreen

    Actually it’s in #46.

    He’s coming back.

  601. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 8:31 am

    The lack of result tells you nothing about what’s going on. Why do you not give a fig if he’s made 1000 calls? If the other party is not willing to deal, what’s Cashman supposed to do? Offer to overpay? A deal at ANY cost?

  602. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 8:32 am

    Maine-

    Maybe it’s Cashman who should go and take a hike ?

    :)

  603. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 8:32 am

    MaineYankee -

    Hope so. :)

  604. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 8:33 am

    Doreen-

    Ever hear of Kevin Millwood, Jeff Francis, Freddy Garcia, or others ?

    They are readily available.

  605. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 8:34 am

    “And he should be anything but passive Mell”

    I didn’t say BE passive. I said APPEAR passive. Big difference. Can’t panic here. Can’t show weakness. I agree that the Lee thing shattered his offseason plan. Would also agree that he wasn’t entirely prepared for that. However, we’re still most of two months from ST and rather than do something crazy, I have no problem with him regrouping and formulating a new plan before acting.

  606. MaineYankee December 30th, 2010 at 8:35 am

    MTU

    I think he has.

    All across MLB searching for rare finds.

    An affordable piece to the puzzel.

  607. blake December 30th, 2010 at 8:35 am

    Mell,

    Agreed in.Soria.

  608. Mike Ri December 30th, 2010 at 8:35 am

    MTU

    Lee blew a hole in his plans and he still hasn?t recovered.
    ——————————————————-

    90 percent agrees with you !. . but lets give Cashman a little more time

  609. Melkmanisinhotlanta December 30th, 2010 at 8:35 am

    The Yankees shall soon walk in the desert for 7 plus years…the core is gone

  610. MaineYankee December 30th, 2010 at 8:36 am

    puzzle also

  611. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 8:37 am

    “Ever hear of Kevin Millwood, Jeff Francis, Freddy Garcia, or others ?

    They are readily available.”

    The Yankees are one of 30 teams who haven’t pounced on these gems, MTU.

  612. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 8:37 am

    MTU -

    How could I now know about those guys? Even if I never heard of them before, I see their names here day in and day out.

    How do you know they’re readily available for what Cashman is willing to pay?

    And just maybe the Yankees aren’t interested in them for whatever reason.

  613. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 8:38 am

    Maine-

    Yeah. And if only pigs could fly.

    :)

  614. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 8:39 am

    And to be honest, I never did hear of Jeff Francis before seeing his name here. :)

  615. MaineYankee December 30th, 2010 at 8:39 am

    Mike Ri December 30th, 2010 at 8:35 am
    MTU

    Lee blew a hole in his plans and he still hasn?t recovered.
    ——————————————————-

    90 percent agrees with you !. . but lets give Cashman a little more time

    —————————————————————————

    I don’t care if 100% agree, it doesn’t mean they are right.

    People can speculate all they want but can be dead wrong without knowledge of what’s going on.

  616. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 8:40 am

    Doreen-

    Well they better get interested in somebody soon because their rotation has hole the size of a Continent in it.

    ;)

  617. MaineYankee December 30th, 2010 at 8:41 am

    MTU

    Don’t look up. :lol:

  618. Carlo December 30th, 2010 at 8:41 am

    I agree with maine Yankee…….Andy is coming back………that said, I hate the approach of “if andy comes back, the rotation is fine and we dont need to do anything”.

    If Andy returns, we have the following:

    Andy – coming off an injury that has clearly taken something out of him based on some quotes we heard this offseason

    CC – no qualms here, but the workload of the past two years and the offseason procedure is daunting

    AJ – coming off one of the worst seasons in recent baseball history from a starter…..how does he bounce back?

    Hughes – coming off a heavy workload through which he seemed to tire towards the end

    Nova – a relatively untested rookie

    And there is no depth behind Nova unless we want to pretend Mitre is a serviceable guy or Noesi/Phelps can be productive 5th starters at the major league level

    Even if Andy returns, I really think Cashman should make a low cost move to secure a guy who we can reasonably count on to give us 150+ innings. Of the lot of Garcia/Francis/Millwood, I think Millwood is the best guy. He isnt a great pitcher, but he has been durable and has thrown 160+ innings in each of the past 6 seasons. Give his putrid year last year, he wont be overly expensive.

    Since we didnt add the horse/stud we wanted to land, it doesnt mean the pitching is ok without him if Andy comes back…….i think depth is the way to go and to obtain depth, you need big league proven pitchers who can at worst give you innings.

  619. Mike Ri December 30th, 2010 at 8:41 am

    I don?t care if 100% agree, it doesn?t mean they are right.

    People can speculate all they want but can be dead wrong without knowledge of what?s going on.

    ————————————–

    I agree .. its pure speculation on my part. thats all .

  620. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 8:43 am

    Maine-

    Like I said. I can move fast so I’m not worried.

    Cashman is the sloth. Not me.

    :)

  621. upstate kate December 30th, 2010 at 8:45 am

    now come on MTU do you really think the current construction of the team will be the team come opening day?
    patience my young Jedi

  622. MaineYankee December 30th, 2010 at 8:47 am

    Carlo

    So where does that put Nova?

  623. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 8:47 am

    Kate-

    I sincerely hope not.

    And I’m way too old to be a Jedi. But thanks for the thought.

    :)

  624. MaineYankee December 30th, 2010 at 8:49 am

    MTU

    Cashman is stealth not sloth.

    kate

    I’ve given the same advice to no avail. :lol:

  625. Joe from Long Island December 30th, 2010 at 8:50 am

    Good morning, all –

    I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again.

    We have absolutely no idea what Cashman is working on. None. With the dollars at stake, I do not see how anyone can really believe that he is doing nothing. Just because it’s not reported on the gazillion sports talk shows means nothing.

    The season does not start on January 1. All the praises of the media guys gets you zero wins. You have to do it on dirt and grass.

  626. Carlo December 30th, 2010 at 8:52 am

    # MaineYankee December 30th, 2010 at 8:47 am

    Carlo

    So where does that put Nova?
    ————————————

    In a battle for the 5th spot or in the pen. I dont think for a second that if Nova enters the season as the 6th starter/long man on paper that he wont get 20 starts due to injury or lack of performance from one of the other starters. Nova/Mitre/Mosely combined for 19 starts last year…..and the only significant injury all season in the rotation was Andy.

  627. Joe from Long Island December 30th, 2010 at 8:52 am

    Off to do some work. Later.

  628. Carlo December 30th, 2010 at 8:53 am

    Joe from Long Island December 30th, 2010 at 8:50 am

    Good morning, all –

    I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again.

    We have absolutely no idea what Cashman is working on.

    —————————————

    Of course we dont…….but if we only talked about what we knew Cashman was working on we wouldnt have anything to talk about. Go rub your mariano ball ;)

  629. blake December 30th, 2010 at 8:54 am

    Re: Pettite.

    I do think the writers and baseball in general has given him somewhat of a pass because he held a press conference immediately and took ownership (at least more than anyone else). Also I was HGH and not steroids and he has shown to be virtually the same pitcher or better since that time. I think people believe Andy told the truth and if his numbers get there I think he’ll get strong HOF consideration.

  630. upstate kate December 30th, 2010 at 8:56 am

    MTU
    you are young in spirit…and UT kinda reminds me of Tatootine :)

  631. mick December 30th, 2010 at 8:58 am

    I don’t know when the Andy announcement will be, although I predict New Years Eve/Day, but whenever it is it will be a surprise. Out of nowhere. Shocking cause it’s all that’s talked about here.
    Funny how that works.

  632. Carlo December 30th, 2010 at 8:58 am

    # blake December 30th, 2010 at 8:54 am

    Re: Pettite.

    I do think the writers and baseball in general has given him somewhat of a pass because he held a press conference immediately and took ownership (at least more than anyone else). Also I was HGH and not steroids and he has shown to be virtually the same pitcher or better since that time. I think people believe Andy told the truth and if his numbers get there I think he’ll get strong HOF consideration.
    ——————————————–

    I think he gets a pass because he is a good guy who has never been inflammatory in his career. He isnt the lightening rod Clemens is/was. He had good media relationships where as Roger had many enemies throughout baseball. I would love to take Andy for his word on HGH……but gun to my head, I would say there is more to the story than what he told. Unfortunate and likely speaks to my cynical view in general, but thats how I feel. And dont get me wrong, I love the guy regardless.

  633. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 8:59 am

    blake -

    We’ll have to see.

    I do think eventually some sort of “compromise” will be reached in terms of what the voters are willing to accept in terms of PEDs.

  634. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 8:59 am

    Kate-

    So are you.

    :)

  635. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 9:01 am

    Kate-

    I hope that came out right ?

    :(

  636. upstate kate December 30th, 2010 at 9:02 am

    sounded good to me MTU!

  637. blake December 30th, 2010 at 9:05 am

    My take on steroids and the HOF. I think you have to try and guess if the player would have done close to the same thing without them and judge how much they helped that individual player. I know that’s very subjective but I see no other fair way to do it. In Andys case, he has been virtually the same pitcher his entire career and had no drop off after testing.

  638. upstate kate December 30th, 2010 at 9:10 am

    it will be interesting to see how it is handled Blake. Hopefully Alex has enough of a career for it not to matter for him. Clemens and Bonds would have had HOF careers regardless. McGuire, I am not so sure about.

  639. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 9:11 am

    blake December 30th, 2010 at 9:05 am
    My take on steroids and the HOF. I think you have to try and guess if the player would have done close to the same thing without them and judge how much they helped that individual player. I know that’s very subjective but I see no other fair way to do it. In Andys case, he has been virtually the same pitcher his entire career and had no drop off after testing.

    ——————

    I prefer to just assume everyone at one time or another did something and so the playing field is level.

    I mean how many of the hitters Roger Clemens struck out were juicing? How many of the pitchers Bonds took deep were on something?

  640. pat December 30th, 2010 at 9:11 am

    The HOF/PEDs rhetoric flying this week from writers has been fascinating to me in the absence of other baseball news.

    Is “I’m suspicious” without any real proof enough to keep guys out of the HOF or should solid evidence be necessary to exclude them?

  641. clownthrowindown December 30th, 2010 at 9:12 am

    Doreen,

    There has to be a compromise at some point. It was too widespread to only hold against those who were caught.

  642. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 9:12 am

    upstate kate December 30th, 2010 at 9:10 am
    it will be interesting to see how it is handled Blake. Hopefully Alex has enough of a career for it not to matter for him. Clemens and Bonds would have had HOF careers regardless. McGuire, I am not so sure about.

    ——————-

    I don’t personally consider Mac a Hall of Famer – nor do I consider Sosa one. They were both one-dimensional players.

    Bonds
    Clemens
    Piazza
    Alex
    Pudge

    Should be in.

  643. Mike Ri December 30th, 2010 at 9:12 am

    My take on steroids and the HOF. I think you have to try and guess if the player would have done close to the same thing without them and judge how much they helped that individual player. I know that?s very subjective but I see no other fair way to do it. In Andys case, he has been virtually the same pitcher his entire career and had no drop off after testing.

    —– Blake

    Maybe Pettite didn’t have a drop off . ..and maybe he was the same type of Pitcher through out his career . . HOWEVER PED’s and HGH Pro-Longed his career . . thus giving his numbers a little extra push… Who’s knows. . .without the Help of PED’s Pettite may have retired years ago because of injury problems

    I love Andy . .But make no mistake . . he’s a cheater. . NO different than Bonds, Canseco , Sosa. Arod , Manny , and the rest of the clan

  644. Yankee Trader December 30th, 2010 at 9:12 am

    Other than Pettitte the FA market doesn’t offer much in the way of starting pitchers[I'm not including the dreaded Idle starter]. Other lefty FA’s such as Francis, Capuano have significant injury histories.

    Cashman could easily be waiting knowing that better options- arb eligible pitchers might become available in the next few weeks, if extensions can’t be worked out-players like Anabel Sanchez and Leo Nunez of the Marlins.

    I think Pettitte will have some decision upon his return with his family from Hawaii.

  645. blake December 30th, 2010 at 9:13 am

    Kate,

    I agree. Arod, Bonds, and Clemens would have been great either way.

    I don’t think Mcguire is HOFer with steroids let alone without them….he was the definition of a one trick pony and he had help with that one trick.

  646. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 9:15 am

    blake December 30th, 2010 at 8:54 am
    Re: Pettite.

    I do think the writers and baseball in general has given him somewhat of a pass because he held a press conference immediately and took ownership (at least more than anyone else). Also I was HGH and not steroids and he has shown to be virtually the same pitcher or better since that time. I think people believe Andy told the truth and if his numbers get there I think he’ll get strong HOF consideration.

    ——————

    Andy got a pass because by and large he has perfected that “aww-shucks” personality and is generally thought of as a good guy and good family man.

    Bonds and Canseco are both turds and that’s why the hammer fell so hard on them in public opinion and Roger just annoyed people by denying everything in the face of overwhelming facts (and by frosting his hair at age 40)

  647. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 9:16 am

    Yankee Trader December 30th, 2010 at 9:12 am
    Other than Pettitte the FA market doesn’t offer much in the way of starting pitchers[I'm not including the dreaded Idle starter]. Other lefty FA’s such as Francis, Capuano have significant injury histories.

    Cashman could easily be waiting knowing that better options- arb eligible pitchers might become available in the next few weeks, if extensions can’t be worked out-players like Anabel Sanchez and Leo Nunez of the Marlins.

    I think Pettitte will have some decision upon his return with his family from Hawaii.
    ——————

    Would love to swing a deal for Cleveland’s Justin Masterson

  648. blake December 30th, 2010 at 9:16 am

    Chip,

    Arod, Piazza, Clemens, bonds, and Purge should all go in and should on the first ballot. I don’t think Mcguire and Sosa are all time great players…..I just don’t

  649. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 9:17 am

    Yankee Trader -

    How dare Andy go to Hawaii when we’re all waiting on his decision!!!!

    ;)

  650. 108 stitches December 30th, 2010 at 9:18 am

    Cashman should have (or maybe has) gone with the premise that Andy would not be back and move on with filling the holes in the starting staff beyond C.C. and Hughes.
    If Andy did return, the old adage applies that you can’t ever have enough pitching.
    After Lee went to Philly there was little in the way of free agents in a bad year for free agency in general.
    The only options are through sensible trades, force feeding kids, or getting outright chancy with scrap heap types scattered around either league.

  651. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 9:19 am

    blake December 30th, 2010 at 9:16 am
    Chip,

    Arod, Piazza, Clemens, bonds, and Purge should all go in and should on the first ballot. I don’t think Mcguire and Sosa are all time great players…..I just don’t

    ——————

    Agree 100%

    I also think that Jose Canseco deserves a spot in the Hall of Fame. Not a plaque and not as a baseball player.

    His public outing of MLB’s steroid use led to the hearings that led to the Mitchell Report that have led to sweeping policy changes in baseball. Outside of Bud Selig I can’t think of any person who has had more of an impact on the game in the last ten years than Canseco. This needs to be recorded as a part of baseball’s history and the Hall is the archive of the sport.

  652. Yankee Trader December 30th, 2010 at 9:19 am

    Actually Rafael Palmero had better career numbers than Mark McGwire.

  653. pat December 30th, 2010 at 9:20 am

    CC is in Hawaii this week too.

    Perhaps they will meet up for a beer and begging!

  654. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 9:21 am

    “I think people believe Andy told the truth and if his numbers get there I think he’ll get strong HOF consideration”

    I think he’s going to come up light on the HOF vote, and that’s probably appropriate. Wonderful career, but I think the factors people would point to in favor of his candidacy are much moreso a reflection of the team he played for rather than any measure of his greatness. Nobody in the HOF has a career ERA as high as Pettitte’s. He was never a tremendous strikeout guy. He’s allowed more hits than innings pitched and has a pedestrian WHIP of 1.36. PED’s are a moot point to me. He shouldn’t be in on merit. Might be blasphemy here on the blog, but that’s how I see it. Terrific career. Very good pitcher. Just doesn’t measure up to best of the best.

  655. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 9:23 am

    Mell December 30th, 2010 at 9:21 am
    “I think people believe Andy told the truth and if his numbers get there I think he’ll get strong HOF consideration”

    I think he’s going to come up light on the HOF vote, and that’s probably appropriate. Wonderful career, but I think the factors people would point to in favor of his candidacy are much moreso a reflection of the team he played for rather than any measure of his greatness. Nobody in the HOF has a career ERA as high as Pettitte’s. He was never a tremendous strikeout guy. He’s allowed more hits than innings pitched and has a pedestrian WHIP of 1.36. PED’s are a moot point to me. He shouldn’t be in on merit. Might be blasphemy here on the blog, but that’s how I see it. Terrific career. Very good pitcher. Just doesn’t measure up to best of the best.

    ————-

    Agree.

    Monument Park – YES

    HOF – NO

  656. MaineYankee December 30th, 2010 at 9:24 am

    Mike Ri

    Hgh has been sold as more to quicken healing not add strength.

    If so it helped Pettite return quicker but not extend his career.

    I’m not defending his use of HGH but I don’t see it as on the same level as steroids.

  657. Carlo December 30th, 2010 at 9:26 am

    # pat December 30th, 2010 at 9:20 am

    CC is in Hawaii this week too.

    Perhaps they will meet up for a beer and begging!
    ————————–

    That would be a Michelob ultra light for CC. the guy is on a quest to shed 30 lbs before camp opens.

  658. Yankee Trader December 30th, 2010 at 9:26 am

    Doreen-
    Isn’t there one LoHud Yankee fan who lives in Hawaii who can “pester” Pettitte into making up his mind. :)

    Chip-

    I’m including the arb eligible list of players. Maybe you can peruse it and come up with a possible Yankee deal for some of them.

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/arbtracker2011

  659. blake December 30th, 2010 at 9:27 am

    Mell,

    That’s a fair POV but to me the post season stuff makes up for a lot of that. I think that stuff has to count for something. I also think (ducks) Curt Schilling should be in as well ketchup filled sock and all.

  660. blake December 30th, 2010 at 9:28 am

    Palmero was a much better player than Mac was……as was Thomas and Bagwell.

  661. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 9:29 am

    Here’s my list of active players who could get into the Hall 5 years from now if they hang them up right now:

    Alex
    Pujols
    Jeter
    Rivera
    Thome
    Ichiro
    Vlad
    Chipper Jones
    Johan
    Halladay
    Pudge

    I think that’s it.

  662. upstate kate December 30th, 2010 at 9:30 am

    Much as I dislike Canseco, you have a valid point Chip. And unless the list of 100 is released, I don’t think it fair to exclude the ones who were exposed.

  663. Mike Ri December 30th, 2010 at 9:33 am

    Mike Ri

    Hgh has been sold as more to quicken healing not add strength.

    If so it helped Pettite return quicker but not extend his career.

    I?m not defending his use of HGH but I don?t see it as on the same level as steroids.

    —-

    Exactly my point ! . . Pettite had talent, But his numbers in my mind are inflated because HGH prolonged his career. If it wasn’t for the HGH he would have NEVER healed from his severe back and leg injuries.. Pettite in all likely-hood would have been a much different pitcher , pitching with those nagging injuries, and possibly would have retired a long time ago.

    HGH and Roids are the same in one….. they help give you the competive and physical advantage you need to be better than your opponent

  664. Mike Ri December 30th, 2010 at 9:34 am

    MaineYankee -

    Exactly my point ! . . Pettite had talent, But his numbers in my mind are inflated because HGH prolonged his career. If it wasn?t for the HGH he would have NEVER healed from his severe back and leg injuries.. Pettite in all likely-hood would have been a much different pitcher , pitching with those nagging injuries, and possibly would have retired a long time ago.

    HGH and Roids are the same in one?.. they help give you the competive and physical advantage you need to be better than your opponent

  665. MaineYankee December 30th, 2010 at 9:35 am

    kate

    People keep talking about the list of 100 as if that would end the story.

    If the 100 were revealed today it still wouldn’t expose all the ped users.

    We never will know all the ones that did use so to think the list tells us anything is wrong.

  666. upstate kate December 30th, 2010 at 9:35 am

    yes there is at least one Yankee fan in Hawaii…m…paging m…please go nag Andy for us

  667. Fran the original December 30th, 2010 at 9:36 am

    Good morning. Just catching up although I see there is nothing new to report. Hopefully things will pick up next week after the holidays.

    Doreen, I think your post at 8:02 was so true. Andy took 2 months last season to rehab from a groin issue, nothing to do with his arm. IIRC it was posted here that Andy is not sure if his body will hold up all season.

  668. pat December 30th, 2010 at 9:37 am

    “And unless the list of 100 is released”

    A court order last week said that’s not happening unless a journalist wants to test a federal judges patience.

  669. upstate kate December 30th, 2010 at 9:37 am

    MY
    the list would at least tell who else was using at that point in time, but you are correct of course, a negative test would not exclude anyone

  670. MaineYankee December 30th, 2010 at 9:40 am

    Mike Ri

    There again not defending Andys use but you have no basis to your theory.

    You can say HGH prolonged his career all you want, but it is all speculation not fact.

  671. pat December 30th, 2010 at 9:40 am

    “HGH and Roids are the same in one?.. they help give you the competive and physical advantage you need to be better than your opponent”

    So do cortisone and TJ Surgery.

  672. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 9:42 am

    Yankee Trader December 30th, 2010 at 9:26 am

    Chip-

    I’m including the arb eligible list of players. Maybe you can peruse it and come up with a possible Yankee deal for some of them.

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/arbtracker2011

    ————————–

    Not a major deal but how about:

    Royals get: Francisco Cervelli and a couple of minor leaguers (non prospects – guys like Golson, Ramiro Pena or Colin Curtis)

    Yankees get: Kyle Davies, Robinson Tejada and Alex Gordon

    Gordon would serve as a bench player, backing up at all four corners. Davies, while nothing truly special is a 26-year old innings eater who could compete for a spot in the back of the rotation and likely would be even less expensive than signing a Freddy Garcia or Kevin Millwood. Plus, while limited, he may still have some upside at his age. Tejada’s a nice relief pitcher

    Another possibility:

    Joba and a minor leaguer to the Nationals for Michael Morse and John Lannan.

    Morse had a pretty good season off the bench for the Nats last year – he can slot in as a fourth OF and RHB. Lannan’s coming off a bad year but was pretty effective for the Nats the two years prior.

    Or maybe a somewhat high upside minor leaguer to the San Fran Giants for Jonathan Sanchez.

    I know they’re not league altering deals – but they’re fairly reasonable and any or all would help the Yankees.

  673. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 9:43 am

    Mike Ri December 30th, 2010 at 9:33 am

    HGH and Roids are the same in one….. they help give you the competive and physical advantage you need to be better than your opponent
    ———————-

    So does laser eye surgery and in some cases Tommy John surgery.

    I’m just playing devil’s advocate on this one.

  674. Mike Ri December 30th, 2010 at 9:44 am

    MaineYankee-

    Whatever !………. I love him . .But he’s tarnished in my eyes. . A cheater… simple as that

  675. mick December 30th, 2010 at 9:46 am

    Andy should be considered for the Hall for his postseasons.
    Probably won’t happen unless he gets closer to 275 wins but they will consider his win totals as a product of the team he was on.

  676. Mike Ri December 30th, 2010 at 9:46 am

    Chip –

    So does laser eye surgery and in some cases Tommy John surgery.

    I?m just playing devil?s advocate on this one.

    ——————————————————————

    lol lol …..it sucks to call him a cheat… . I love Pettite . . but like you said in previous posts .. .He always gets a free pass.

  677. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 9:48 am

    Trader -

    The really top guys on that list of arbitration elligibles aren’t going anywhere:

    Morrow
    Fielder
    Wandy Rodriguez
    Weaver
    Bautista
    Jurrjens
    Marmol
    Kuo
    Billingsley
    Choo
    Nunez
    Pelfrey
    Bell
    Danks
    etc…

    The guy I would like to get – but figure the Indians aren’t going to move him this early in his arb schedule is Chris Perez – he would be a stud setting up for Rivera.

  678. blake December 30th, 2010 at 9:48 am

    Chip,

    Good list. I would add Pedro ( don’t think he’s officially retired) and Posada (though I know that ones debatable for some).

  679. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 9:49 am

    Mike Ri December 30th, 2010 at 9:46 am
    Chip –

    So does laser eye surgery and in some cases Tommy John surgery.

    I?m just playing devil?s advocate on this one.

    ——————————————————————

    lol lol …..it sucks to call him a cheat… . I love Pettite . . but like you said in previous posts .. .He always gets a free pass.

    ————————-

    It is funny – he’s baseball’s version of Brett Favre and no one calls him out on that either.

  680. mick December 30th, 2010 at 9:49 am

    Since the writers choose HOFers and they don’t like being lied to, they will never vote Bonds and Clemens in. They will be the new Pete Rose’s except they will carry the vendetta not the commisioner.

  681. Mike Ri December 30th, 2010 at 9:49 am

    HGH and Roids are the same in one?.. they help give you the competive and physical advantage you need to be better than your opponent?

    So do cortisone and TJ Surgery.

    ——————————————-
    Pat –

    Cortisone and TJ Sugery arent’ against he rules of baseball. I know technically HGH wasn’t against the rules either .. It flew under the radar.. But to me. you can put that under the steroid catagory and the PED’catagory

  682. Mike Ri December 30th, 2010 at 9:51 am

    Chip -

    It is funny ? he?s baseball?s version of Brett Favre and no one calls him out on that either.

    ————–

    So true on the point as well. Like you said . .he has that innocent charm.

  683. mick December 30th, 2010 at 9:52 am

    -They- being the reporters.

  684. upstate kate December 30th, 2010 at 9:54 am

    I think Pete Rose should be in the HOF as well

  685. Yankee Trader December 30th, 2010 at 9:54 am

    Chip-

    Michael Morse would be a nice right handed OF’er for the Yankees- 7 assists no errorrs, .289 BA.

  686. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 9:54 am

    blake December 30th, 2010 at 9:48 am
    Chip,

    Good list. I would add Pedro ( don’t think he’s officially retired) and Posada (though I know that ones debatable for some).

    ———————-

    Yeah I went with the assumption Pedro’s retired – or at the very least not an active ball player.

    Posada I’m on the fence about and my theory is that if I’m on the fence about a player I can’t put him in the Hall. When you say a player’s name, if there’s any debate about the merits then he’s not good enough.

    I also don’t buy into this second or third ballot stuff. A ball player’s qualifications for the Hall do not change between his fifth year out of the game and his sixth year out of the game. Either you’re a Hall of Famer when your career ends or you’re not.

    Andre Dawson last played baseball in 1996 – he last played a full season in 1993 – you mean to tell me that 15 years later he did something to make him a Hall of Fame player? No. Dawson got elected because he’s a nice guy and writers like him…and wanted to reward him because he “played it clean” That’s not good enough for me.

  687. blake December 30th, 2010 at 9:54 am

    Bonds was on his way to being an all time great before he ever touched the juice……what’s really sad is that people have now forgotten how good he was at every facet of the game earlier in his career……same with Arod.

  688. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 9:55 am

    Andy has never retired, so he is not Brett Favre.

  689. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 9:57 am

    Yankee Trader December 30th, 2010 at 9:54 am
    Chip-

    Michael Morse would be a nice right handed OF’er for the Yankees- 7 assists no errorrs, .289 BA.

    —————-

    He can play all three OF spots and a little 1b as well.

    Nats have Werth, Morgan, Bernadina as their starting OF – so he would be a bench guy for them.

  690. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 9:58 am

    blake December 30th, 2010 at 9:54 am
    Bonds was on his way to being an all time great before he ever touched the juice……what’s really sad is that people have now forgotten how good he was at every facet of the game earlier in his career……same with Arod.

    ————

    Well that brings up the question of when they first started doing steroids – which is as much a guessing game as anything.

  691. Yankee Trader December 30th, 2010 at 9:58 am

    Leo Nunez, after making 2M as a closer last year on the Marlins, might be available, if after the signings of Buck and Vazquez, they feel they can’t fit both Anibal Sanchez and him under their budget.

  692. blake December 30th, 2010 at 9:59 am

    Chip,

    I agree…I.don’t like the 2nd or 3rd ballot stuff either. I think Jorge is debatable but so are a lot of other guys already in the hall and his numbers will stack up with other catchers that are in…..plus he was a major cog in a dynasty.

  693. blake December 30th, 2010 at 10:00 am

    Chip,

    You could see the change in body type with Bonds when he started…..I see your point though.

  694. MaineYankee December 30th, 2010 at 10:01 am

    Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 9:55 am
    Andy has never retired, so he is not Brett Favre.

    ——————————————————————

    Also his coming back didn’t keep them from finding out about a player waiting in the wings to replace him.

  695. austinmac December 30th, 2010 at 10:04 am

    I can’t imagine Cashman is not trying to make a move, but at this point he is unwilling to give up what is required. Since no significant additions came via free agency, no valuable trade pieces from the starting line-up can be traded.

    Either Cashman will accept what he has to give up to improve, waste money and a starting rotation spot on a Garcia type pitcher, or go with what they have. Either of the last two will result in a long season. Poor starting pitcher always means a poor season. Without Pettitte, they were 13th in ERAin the AL in the second half of the year. Since then, they have added Feliciano and lost Wood.

    I see no cause for the optimism some hold. If it is optimism Cashman will do something helpful, I can hold that with you. If it is optimism for the season with what they have, I don’t realistically see it.

  696. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 10:05 am

    Yankee Trader December 30th, 2010 at 9:58 am
    Leo Nunez, after making 2M as a closer last year on the Marlins, might be available, if after the signings of Buck and Vazquez, they feel they can’t fit both Anibal Sanchez and him under their budget.

    ———————

    I suppose it’s possible, but the other thing is that the Marlins front office doesn’t exactly like Joe Girardi so I wonder how willing they would be to do a deal that would help his team.

    Also the Marlins are going to have a lot of eyes on them this year with regard to their budget – they were hammered by the union and MLB last year for not spending enough of their revenue sharing dollars and are preparing to move into a new (publically financed) ball park.

  697. pat December 30th, 2010 at 10:07 am

    Mike Ri

    You can put them in the same category but the DEA, medical professionals and people familiar with HGH and anabolic steroids don’t.

    The blanket issue is players do performance enhancing things everyday. Some are legal and some aren’t but that’s about legislation more than the significance of the performance enhancement.

    Known amphetamine users are hall of famers but current amphetamine users would be excluded. The enhancement effect didn’t change, the rules did.

  698. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 10:08 am

    Regular bloggers will have heard this before – but my main issue with Andy was how he handled his name being in the Mitchell Report.

    The Yankees made Andy a contract offer to return in 08. He was “undecided” about it. MLB announced that they were going to release the names on the Mitchell Report; that day (or the day after) Andy grabbed the contract knowing he was about to be outted without giving the Yankees a head’s up.

    It was a pretty sleazy move on his part IMNSHO

  699. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 10:12 am

    pat December 30th, 2010 at 10:07 am
    Mike Ri

    You can put them in the same category but the DEA, medical professionals and people familiar with HGH and anabolic steroids don’t.

    The blanket issue is players do performance enhancing things everyday. Some are legal and some aren’t but that’s about legislation more than the significance of the performance enhancement.

    Known amphetamine users are hall of famers but current amphetamine users would be excluded. The enhancement effect didn’t change, the rules did.

    ——————————-

    Another point to consider – guys like Cobb, Ruth, Gherig – didn’t play against the best competition available. Is that all that much different than using steroids to separate yourself from the rest of the players in the league?

  700. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 10:13 am

    blake December 30th, 2010 at 9:59 am
    Chip,

    I agree…I.don’t like the 2nd or 3rd ballot stuff either. I think Jorge is debatable but so are a lot of other guys already in the hall and his numbers will stack up with other catchers that are in…..plus he was a major cog in a dynasty.

    —————–

    To me, guys like Jorge, Andy, Bernie and maybe Paul belong in Monument Park – but not in the Hall of Fame.

  701. MaineYankee December 30th, 2010 at 10:16 am

    Chip December 30th, 2010 at 10:08 am
    Regular bloggers will have heard this before – but my main issue with Andy was how he handled his name being in the Mitchell Report.

    The Yankees made Andy a contract offer to return in 08. He was “undecided” about it. MLB announced that they were going to release the names on the Mitchell Report; that day (or the day after) Andy grabbed the contract knowing he was about to be outted without giving the Yankees a head’s up.

    It was a pretty sleazy move on his part IMNSHO

    ——————————————————————–

    You could be right but again it is an opinion based on speculation not fact.

    MLB did themselves a great disservice by not dealing with this head on and then move past it.

    By trying to ignore it till they were forced to deal with it has dragged it out and will always be a black cloud over them.

  702. austinmac December 30th, 2010 at 10:17 am

    Chip,

    No, the pre-Robinson days didn’t include some of the best players. On the other hand, essentially all white athletes played baseball. There was no significant competition from any other professional sport. Now, many, many great athletes obviously used their abilities in other sports.

  703. blake December 30th, 2010 at 10:18 am

    Chip,
    Yes but do you feel that same way about Gary Carter?

  704. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 10:19 am

    My optimism lies in the fact that every season starts with all teams at 0-0 and in baseball, you really don’t know how things are going to play out until they do.

    The Yankees may not have everything ironed out yet, but they are not a bad team even as they stand.

    And even if it turns out to be not the season we have all gotten used to over the past decade-plus, well, then, that’s the way it is. Not fun or satisfying. But not a world-stopper, either.

  705. Joe from Long Island December 30th, 2010 at 10:20 am

    blake – you’re right. Bonds, and Alex, were both historically great players, long before they indulged. As a result of their mistakes, their legacies will be tarnished to some extent. To me, as a baseball fan, that is probably the greatest tragedy of all this.

  706. blake December 30th, 2010 at 10:22 am

    Joe,

    It is a shame….it really is. One thing to consider from here forward is that the current players aren’t allowed to use amphetamines…..whereas there are many many players currently in the Hall who likely did.

  707. austinmac December 30th, 2010 at 10:22 am

    MLBTrade Rumors said the Yankees interest in Soriano is reported as cautious. I think cautious, and perhaps over-cautious, is a good description of the off-season.

    MTU, they also report your favorite, Gavin Floyd, is not on the market at this time.

  708. Joe from Long Island December 30th, 2010 at 10:24 am

    Doreen – I’m currently reading Allen Barra’s biography of Yogi Berra, and just finished the chapter on the 1947 season, Yogi’s first full season. They started with a mess of a pitching staff, and their roster had too many unproven kids, and players past their primes. Yogi himself was described as an amazing hitter, who was horrible in the field, and who couldn’t throw out baserunners. His competition behind the plate was a 32-year old journeyman who had had just one good season.

    That team won the World Series.

  709. Carlo December 30th, 2010 at 10:27 am

    # austinmac December 30th, 2010 at 10:22 am

    MTU, they also report your favorite, Gavin Floyd, is not on the market at this time.
    ————————-
    Good – because he is 3rd on my list of white sox pitchers i would like to see us get.

  710. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 10:29 am

    Joe from Long Island -

    Ya never know! :lol:

  711. Mike Ri December 30th, 2010 at 10:31 am

    Pat

    You can put them in the same category but the DEA, medical professionals and people familiar with HGH and anabolic steroids don?t.

    —But MLB does. Forget about the DEA , the Medical Professionals and the people familar with HGH. The only opinion and judgement that matters is the commissioners. And he states that HGH is a PED.

    -Known amphetamine users are hall of famers but current amphetamine users would be excluded. The enhancement effect didn?t change, the rules did.

    I know the argument your trying to make . . Look . we can’t go dig up Babe Ruth and test him for HGH or Roids. There are obviously players in the Hall of Fame that did the juice. and amphetamines…….. However a Line was drawn in the sand by Baseball a few years back and those who cross it deserve to be either placed on a waiting list to get into the Hall .. or excluded entirely.. upon the discretion and mercy of the baseball writers

  712. MaineYankee December 30th, 2010 at 10:32 am

    Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 10:29 am
    Joe from Long Island -

    Ya never know!
    ———————————————————–

    Are you John Sterling? :lol:

  713. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 10:34 am

    blake December 30th, 2010 at 10:18 am
    Chip,
    Yes but do you feel that same way about Gary Carter?

    ————————-

    I don’t, but I think Carter was a more complete player than Posada. Jorge in his prime was a very good offensive player but he’s always been subpar with the glove. To get into the Hall with that kind of limitation you need Piazza like offensive numbers.

    Again – just my opinion.

  714. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 10:35 am

    Austin-

    Yes. I saw that.

    Thanks for the heads up.

    :)

  715. RayVT December 30th, 2010 at 10:37 am

    Chip December 30th, 2010 at 10:12 am

    A lot of the MLB players from that era did play winter ball in South America & the islands including Cuba against mixed competition with huge success. The only player really exempted were blacks and in today’s baseball most of them aren’t playing in the MLB now either.

    Every era has had their share of issues. Corked bats, spitballs, frozen baseballs, sloped infields to push bunts foul, tall grass, different heights on the mounds, holes in the mound to affect a LHP or the opposite of the hometeam pitcher, stealing of signs, and a lot more.

  716. blake December 30th, 2010 at 10:40 am

    Chip,

    I think Jorge is a comparable player to Carter. His seasonal averages are better…..especially in OPS and he was a big contributor to 4 title teams. JMO…

  717. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 10:45 am

    MaineYankee

    :)

    It’s trite, but true.

  718. MaineYankee December 30th, 2010 at 10:52 am

    Doreen

    I agree.

  719. just_another_handle December 30th, 2010 at 10:53 am

    Wow…Brian Heyman is no Chad Jennings in the posting department, huh? lol

  720. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 10:53 am

    blake December 30th, 2010 at 10:40 am
    Chip,

    I think Jorge is a comparable player to Carter. His seasonal averages are better…..especially in OPS and he was a big contributor to 4 title teams. JMO…

    ——————-

    I agree – offensively they were very similary – defensively Carter was much better than Jorge though.

  721. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 10:59 am

    As for Jon Heyman’s report on Soriano:

    I don’t doubt that the Yankees are keeping tabs on him, I just don’t see anything happening there. There are enough teams with legitimate needs at closer that Soriano isn’t going to have to take a job setting up Rivera.

    I could sooner see him returning to Tampa than setting up for the Yankees.

  722. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 11:03 am

    Chip-

    IMO Soriano is going where the years and money take him.

  723. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 11:04 am

    MTU December 30th, 2010 at 11:03 am
    Chip-

    IMO Soriano is going where the years and money take him.

    ————

    Agreed – but someone will pay him closer money to close; not closer money to set up.

  724. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 11:06 am

    Chip-

    I’m sure that would be his preference.

    He’s expensive.

    Boras almost always plays the waiting game.

    Maybe his market will collapse ?

  725. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 11:06 am

    Oh and by the way, if the Yankees do sign Soriano be prepared for a slew of pundits talking about how this is what’s wrong with baseball.

    The Yankees go out and sign the best closer on the market to be a middle reliever…maybe it’s time for a salary cap.

    At which point I would have to throw my size 15 through my brand new TV and I don’t want to do that – so for that reason and that reason alone I hope the Yankees don’t sign Soriano.

  726. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 11:08 am

    “Maybe his market will collapse ?”

    Even if it does, he does a Beltre and closes for somebody for year.

  727. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 11:09 am

    MTU December 30th, 2010 at 11:06 am
    Chip-

    I’m sure that would be his preference.

    He’s expensive.

    Boras almost always plays the waiting game.

    Maybe his market will collapse ?
    ——————–

    I think Boras was unprepared for how the Angels filled out their pen – deciding to stick with Rodney as their closer and bring in Downs to set up. I still see potential fits for Soriano with:

    White Sox
    Cards
    Rangers
    Tampa
    Washington
    Minny
    and
    Milwaukee

  728. RMS December 30th, 2010 at 11:10 am

    “Wow…Brian Heyman is no Chad Jennings in the posting department, huh? lol”

    Brian Heyman is to Chad Jennings as
    Brian Cashman is to Theo Epstein

  729. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 11:11 am

    Chip-

    I don’t think so. Not at his current asking price in years and dollars.

    Few can afford that. Only big market type teams IMO.

    IMO Boras wants to set the market with Soriano.

    Isn’t Fuentes his also ?

  730. 108 stitches December 30th, 2010 at 11:13 am

    I’m not expecting much in the way of real activity. It seems that most GM’s are waiting to see what shakes out from the arbitration period coming soon.
    Agents like Boras are willing to wait until spring training if necessary.

  731. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 11:13 am

    MTU December 30th, 2010 at 11:11 am
    Chip-

    I don’t think so. Not at his current asking price in years and dollars.

    Few can afford that. Only big market type teams IMO.

    IMO Boras wants to set the market with Soriano.

    Isn’t Fuentes his also ?
    ————————-

    Not sure about Fuentes.

    Like Mell said, it’s entirely possible he pulls a Beltre with Soriano and has him ink a 1 year deal somewhere that he an close and then hits the market again next season.

  732. West Coast Yankee Fan December 30th, 2010 at 11:14 am

    Bad analogy this winter RMS

  733. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 11:16 am

    Chip-

    That is usually a fallback position only.

    Boras has been a little off his game in recent times.

    I wouldn’t want to be the one to try to fill your shoes.

    :)

  734. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 11:16 am

    It’s probably a bad idea, but the more I think about it the more I like the idea of:

    Royals get: Cervelli and a couple of non-prospect types like maybe Greg Golson and Kevin Russo

    Yankees get: Kyle Davies, Rob Tejada and either Alex Gordon or Mike Avilas

  735. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 11:16 am

    MTU December 30th, 2010 at 11:16 am
    Chip-

    That is usually a fallback position only.

    Boras has been a little off his game in recent times.

    I wouldn’t want to be the one to try to fill your shoes.

    —————-

    well you know what they say – big shoes = big feet.

  736. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 11:17 am

    Chip-

    But 15′s ?

    :)

  737. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 11:18 am

    Chip:

    It is a bad idea………….for the Royals.

  738. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 11:24 am

    Mell December 30th, 2010 at 11:18 am
    Chip:

    It is a bad idea………….for the Royals.

    ————–

    Probably – but they clear three arbitration salaries in the deal and bring back some cheap young players who can fill their spots on the roster immediately while they wait for their players to develop.

    I’m legitimately curious what they’re going to do with Billy Butler – he’s going to start getting expensive soon and with Eric Hosmer, Ka’ahui and Moustokis they have three guys coming up who all play 3b/1b/DH

  739. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 11:27 am

    “Probably – but they clear three arbitration salaries in the deal and bring back some cheap young players who can fill their spots on the roster immediately while they wait for their players to develop”

    Yeah, but they all stink. Nobody’s that desperate to rid themselves of arb eligible guys.

    Butler? I think they keep him around as DH. Ka’ahui isn’t an everyday bat.

  740. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 11:34 am

    Mell December 30th, 2010 at 11:27 am
    “Probably – but they clear three arbitration salaries in the deal and bring back some cheap young players who can fill their spots on the roster immediately while they wait for their players to develop”

    Yeah, but they all stink. Nobody’s that desperate to rid themselves of arb eligible guys.

    Butler? I think they keep him around as DH. Ka’ahui isn’t an everyday bat.

    —————-

    I’ll throw them a bone – give them a far off minor leaguer with lots of upside like the kid the Yankees sent to Atlanta in the Javy Vazquez deal.

  741. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 11:38 am

    Interesting article on TYU asking the question how you have felt if Bobby Jenks was a Yankee. Looks like the RS added a real high character guy to that clubhouse :roll:

    “Yesterday’s Bobby Jenks – Oney Guillen brouhaha spurred some discussion about Jenks’ character, and brought a 2005 ESPN article about Jenks and his upbringing to my attention. The article suggests that Jenks is lacking in terms of intelligence, and that he is a “backwoods” guy with a drinking problem. The following anecdote caught my eye:

    His ex-agent says Bobby Jenks used to call him D.J., short for Dirty Jew.

    The agent says Bobby would say it casually on phone messages — “Call me back, D.J.” — and while Bobby denies it, it’s a window into the mystery of a backwoods pitcher.

    The relationship between agent Matt Sosnick and Jenks seemingly did not end well, such that I cannot take anything said in the aftermath of their split entirely at face value. However, assuming for a moment that Sosnick is telling the truth, the anecdote raises an interesting point. I wanted Jenks on the Yankees, and I am not sure how I would have felt, as a Jew, after reading the ESPN story if he was in pinstripes.”

    http://www.theyankeeu.com/2010.....form-23999

  742. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 11:44 am

    LGY -

    Not the first hick to play baseball – won’t be the last.

    I’m sure the Yankees have some players who feel similarly; the stories just aren’t out about them.

  743. Mike Ri December 30th, 2010 at 11:44 am

    LGY -

    Don’t sweat it . .I had Jenks on my fantasy baseball team ..and he SUCKED !! . Im glad the Yanks passed on him…… He’ll be a disaster on the Sox. A ticking time bomb !

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