The LoHud Yankees Blog

A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


The eighth inning

Posted by: Brian Heyman - Posted in Misc on Dec 30, 2010 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

The Yankees, according to an SI.com report, have showed interest in free agent Rafael Soriano. The question is, would the ex-Rays closer be interested in trading the ninth inning for the eighth for at least a couple of years? If so, he would be a good answer.

As for another good answer, Joakim Soria, saying he wouldn’t block a deal to the Yankees, Royals GM Dayton Moore indicated to the New York Post that he would deal anyone for the right return.  Who would you like to see in that eighth-inning role, Joba Chamberlain, David Robertson, a committee or one newcomer?

The ex-Red Sox third baseman, Adrian Beltre, is after a five-year deal and the Angels appear to be the frontrunners at the moment to give it to him. The Rangers may still be in the mix, but the A’s look out of it.

Rafael Palmeiro is still claiming he never took steroids. He just made his debut on the Hall of Fame ballot. The other baseball news is a sad note. Hall of Famer Harmon Killebrew is battling cancer.  

I’m at Yankee Stadium today for chilly Pinstripe Bowl coverage.

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626 Responses to “The eighth inning”

  1. 108 stitches December 30th, 2010 at 12:00 pm

    Soriano will cost a draft pick.
    Soria will cost high end prospects.
    Either one would have to agree to serve as the EIG / part time closer until Mariano bows out and be well paid for doing it.

  2. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 12:06 pm

    Soriano is going to be too expensive in terms of cash for the role he’s going to serve (most likely)

    Soria is going to be too expensive in terms of prospects

    Beltre is running out of teams interested in his services

    Raf failed a steroid test so he’s full of diaper filling

    Good luck to Killebrew

  3. KennyH123 December 30th, 2010 at 12:08 pm

    KC is gonna want Montero, either Banuelos or Betances, etc. etc. etc. Soriano will cost only money. Unless you count a draft pick, which is a crap shoot anyway. Montero, Banuelos and Betances are just prospects, but prospects with huge ceilings, and barring injury, all of them will at least play in the major leagues. A draft pick has a high probability of not turning into anything.

    The Yanks have the cash, sign Soriano as closer in waiting.

  4. Mike Ri December 30th, 2010 at 12:10 pm

    The Yanks have the cash, sign Soriano as closer in waiting.

    -Kenny —

    If he wants to assume the eigth inning

  5. J. Alfred Prufrock December 30th, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    I don’t like the idea of Soriano hanging around waiting for Rivera to retire.that said,i’m not giving up guys who can front-end a rotation in a coupla yrs for a reliever (soria).if soriano is signed,i’d assume chamberlain either goes back into the rotation or is traded.the former would make me smile.

  6. austinmac December 30th, 2010 at 12:12 pm

    I met Killebrew once at a little league function for one of my kids. He is a very, very nice man.

    I remember what a strongman he was as a player, but he was much shorter and smaller than I anticipated. He and Mantle had the most power in the AL for a long time. I wish him well.

  7. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2010 at 12:13 pm

    Soria make no sense.

    Soriano makes some sense, but giving up a 1st rounder would hurt.

  8. austinmac December 30th, 2010 at 12:14 pm

    I suspect Soriano would pitch the third inning for enough money. To me, the bigger question is whether the Yankees will outbid others for the EIG role. Based upon what I have been seeing, I strongly doubt it.

  9. yankee21 December 30th, 2010 at 12:14 pm

    I believe KC has demonstrated that it will ask the moon from NYY for Soria. So forget about him, although he is a stand-out closer, I do not offer the moon for him.

    Soriano comes at a high price reportedly seeking MO money and a 4 year deal. That is a steep price to pay.

    I think it depends on NYY evaluation of internal answers whether they make a play on either.

    For example is Brackman a future closer or a SP? Is Joba thought of as just a relief guy or a potential closer? Etc…

    It also depends on how NYY plans on using MO in 2011. If they envision cutting his workload back to preserve his effectiveness, then they will need more than just an 8th inning guy but a guy who has proven the ability to close.

    Neither guy is a perfect solution for what it will cost. But if NYY does not like the prospect of internal answers and they are concerned about MO, I would opt to pay the freight on Soriano.

  10. disco stu December 30th, 2010 at 12:24 pm

    If both Soriano and Soria are willing to come to the Yankees with the understanding that their primary role is the 8th inning setup man to Mo, then my choice would be Soriano.

    He would only cost money and a 1st round pick, while Soria would cost us high end prospects that I will either be ready within the next year to be at MLB or serve as trade chips for the more glaring need we currently have at starting pitching. If I am going to have to surrender a Manny Banuelos, Dellin Betances, or even a Jesus Montero, I want to be getting back someone like a Felix Hernandez or Clayton Kershaw. I dont think you should be trading your blue chips for an 8th inning setup man when you can just sign one and continue to protect your assets down on the farm.

  11. heyman_sux December 30th, 2010 at 12:24 pm

    ***correction ‘jon’ heyman sux

    What is the Angel’s level of interest in Soriano. They need a closer, have the money, also got shut out in free agency thus far. Boras isn’t going to want his client to take the EIG role unless he’ll make significantly more here. The ability to close games will earn Soriano future big reliever money when he’s due for his next contract…

  12. BIG AL December 30th, 2010 at 12:25 pm

    MTU -

    Very feisty this morning.

    Brian Fuentes’ agent is Rick Thurman.

  13. 108 stitches December 30th, 2010 at 12:27 pm

    Regardless of Soriano or Soria added, the roster tweaking still isn’t finished. The team still lacks a No. 3 or 4 starter.
    No guarantees that Pettitte returns or Rothschild fixes Burnett.

  14. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2010 at 12:28 pm

    “I dont think you should be trading your blue chips for an 8th inning setup man when you can just sign one and continue to protect your assets down on the farm.”

    Abso-freakin’-lutely.

  15. G. Love December 30th, 2010 at 12:33 pm

    If the Yankees drop 40 million to get Soriano it’s pocket change to them.

    There are clearly no starting pitchers to sign this year and next year that will cost 20 million a season and signing Soriano strengthens the pen allowing the Yankees to take some risks in the rotation knowing the pen is as deep as it is with Soriano.

    40 million for 4 years is fine with me. The Yankees payroll went down and their ticket prices and parking fees went up.

    We wasted more than that on Igawa and have had it sit as dead money for years.

    Taking a chance on a guy who has insane numbers as a closer last year and who has been set up guy before is fine with me.

    If he turns out to be a bust, so be it.

    If he turns out to help the Yankees shorten most games to 6 innings then we’re looking at a very different season ahead of us.

    He’s a difference maker. He only costs money and a pick. The rest of this team is win now.

    Let the pick go and put that money into international signings and sign the best player available in that route to make up for the loss of talent losing the pick causes.

    The Yankees want to show their fans they are being creative and are committed to winning next season they sign Soriano.

    If the starting pitching market is dead as it appears to be, sign the best available closer and make the bullpen the terminator.

    We’ll still have our prospects to trade for a starting pitcher when they become available if need be.

    It’s the smartest move on paper for next season.

    I don’t want to hear about Marte, Karsay, Farnsworth, etc. None of them were coming off the season Soriano just had in the AL East.

  16. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 12:34 pm

    “I dont think you should be trading your blue chips for an 8th inning setup man when you can just sign one and continue to protect your assets down on the farm.”

    There’s the rub. The Yankees would be trading for an EIG while the Royals would be trading a closer. Hard to arrive at comp when that’s the case. As for Soriano, I think selling him on the Yankees is a lot tougher than selling the Yankees on him.

  17. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 12:38 pm

    I really don’t see any downside to paying Soriano to shorten the game. Isn’t having as many “closers” as possible the goal of any good bullpen? The defined role of the “closer” only clouds your judgment as to how games should be completed in the safest manner possible.

    Also, this is a good article. Not are opinions are in fact… opinions.
    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....-opinions/

  18. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 12:40 pm

    If he turns out to help the Yankees shorten most games to 6 innings then we’re looking at a very different season ahead of us.

    ******

    How does Soriano shorten the game to 6 innings?

  19. G. Love December 30th, 2010 at 12:43 pm

    I think if you pay Soriano enough not closing doesn’t matter. It’s not like he’s working on a hall of fame closer campaign/career.

    Setting up Mo means Soriano will get many chances to close games here as Mo doesn’t go back to back often.

    It also eliminates the need for the 2 inning save from Mo and from Soriano.

    Joba, Feliciano, Robertsen and Logan can navigate the 6th-7th inning. Hitters would be swinging away int eh 6th and 7th knowing Soriano and Mo are waiting for them.

    That said, I’m not hopeful it will happen. Cashman will get cheap because Soriano won’t throw enough innings in his mind to merit 10 million a year.

  20. Giuseppe Franco December 30th, 2010 at 12:45 pm

    # KennyH123 December 30th, 2010 at 12:08 pm

    KC is gonna want Montero, either Banuelos or Betances, etc. etc. etc. Soriano will cost only money. Unless you count a draft pick, which is a crap shoot anyway. Montero, Banuelos and Betances are just prospects, but prospects with huge ceilings, and barring injury, all of them will at least play in the major leagues. A draft pick has a high probability of not turning into anything.

    The Yanks have the cash, sign Soriano as closer in waiting.

    ———–

    A closer in waiting for two years?

    Unrealistic fans on this site and in the Yankee blogosphere were demanding two years ago that the Yanks find an elite closer to pitch the 8th inning to prepare for Mo’s retirement.

    Now, two years later, Mo signed another two year deal.

    Find a closer when you need a closer – after Mo retires.

    An elite closer is not going to want to pitch the 8th inning to set up for Mo. Fans here may think it’s a privilege for an elite closer to set up for Mo but I’d be willing to bet said closers won’t see it that way.

    Saves = $$$$

  21. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 12:45 pm

    “Soriano makes some sense, but giving up a 1st rounder would hurt.”

    soriano makes the team better this year, right now and that”s something the yankees need.

    any 2011 draft pick doesn’t help the yankees for two to three years.

    if the yankees didn’t need help right now i’d say pass on soriano.

    but the yankees need good some pitching right now.

    if they can sign him for not absurd money, i”d say take the chance.

    and this is only because the team is in a weak position with pitching.

    it’s one of the downfalls of cashman getting the yankees into this position.

    they have to overspend to keep up.

    plus yankee fans are bored.

  22. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 12:46 pm

    “That said, I’m not hopeful it will happen. Cashman will get cheap because Soriano won’t throw enough innings in his mind to merit 10 million a year.”

    He can’t really apply that logic while paying $15M to someone else who won’t throw enough innings to merit that.

  23. G. Love December 30th, 2010 at 12:48 pm

    LGY,

    If you can’t see how having 2 legit closers at the end of the pen shortens the game then I got nothing for you.

    The 8th and 9th innings would be death valley. The rest of our pen would have to get through the 6th and 7th with 2 lefties causing matchup issues for the opposing lineup. The middle relievers also wouldn’t be throwing a lot of pitchers with all the matching up that would occur in the 6th and 7th.

    Bringing in a lefty specialist in a big spot in the 6th could change a game instead of having to hold him for the later innings.

    I’m starting to feel like if post the word “right” you’ll immediately post the word “left.

    I get it. You want to disagree with me. You still haven’t shown me in any of your retorts where I’m wrong.

  24. Giuseppe Franco December 30th, 2010 at 12:50 pm

    # LGY December 30th, 2010 at 12:40 pm

    How does Soriano shorten the game to 6 innings?
    ————-

    Because, you see, it’s 1996 and Torre is the manager again.

    Haven’t you been following the offseason, silly?

  25. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 12:57 pm

    “if they can sign him for not absurd money, i”d say take the chance”

    Where is your “absurd” line drawn? I think it’d take 4 and $44M or so for him to take this gig.

  26. This Year December 30th, 2010 at 1:03 pm

    No brainer. You sign Soriano as the closer– just delayed 2 years (at most, probably). You can justify closer money because– barring injury– he will be the closer, and in the meantime you shorten the game. Total no brainer as far as I am concerned, and this “cannot pay him closer money for 8th inning” rationale goes out the window.

  27. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 1:08 pm

    G Love

    I have no idea what you are talking about that I want to disagree with you. I have barely responded to most of your posts lately except for the Kevin Millwood stuff because he is horrible.

    Do I agree with your outlook on this team? Not remotely.

    I asked the Soriano thing because I have seen many people say the same thing and then later say they don’t trust Joba or Robertson and go on about how much Joba stinks. So what many are saying is that Joba can’t get batters out it the eighth consistently but suddenly he is going to shut down the 6th or 7th?

    I don’t understand that at all because there is nothing special about the eighth inning.

    That is what I was trying to find out. It has nothing to do with you or wanting to disagre.

  28. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 1:11 pm

    I also don’t agree at all with going after Soriano.

    I would not invest that much money, years, and a draft pick in a 31 year old with a long history of arm troubles.

    I wouldn’t go near Millwood and wouldn’t sign Soriano unless it was for 2 years or less.

  29. Carlo December 30th, 2010 at 1:14 pm

    Can’t we just sign soriano and then deal montero, chamberlain, a B, and nunez to seattle for Felix and call it a great success?

  30. Yankeeclipper December 30th, 2010 at 1:14 pm

    Without a solid 2 or 3 starter added through trader FA market and with all likelihood that Pettite hangs up his cleats then Yanks need to look at backend of pen to improve. Sori a would be my first choice if we can make a deal with KC. If not then go for Soriano.

    A deep pen will make it possible for us to manage 3 to 4 innings with pen particularly if we are going with Mitre and Nova as 4 and 5 in rotation.

    Providing here may be best way for Cashman to narrow gap between us and Red Sox.

    If we can get game into 7 th or 8 th with leas the. We will be in great shape.

    Steve

  31. CCBiggs December 30th, 2010 at 1:16 pm

    Yanks should definitely trade for Soria, and then move Joba to the rotation. That improves the pen and gives the Yanks the starter they need. And if Pettitte comes back, a rotation of CC, Hughes, Pettitte, Burnett, and Joba looks pretty good.

  32. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 1:17 pm

    Soriano is only really useful if the Yankees are tied or have the lead entering the 8th inning.

    Meaning he is only useful if the starter pitcher and offense already did its job.

    Meaning Soriano is not the cure for the rotation.

  33. Mike Ri December 30th, 2010 at 1:19 pm

    CCBigs

    Yanks should definitely trade for Soria, and then move Joba to the rotation

    ——
    no . . and definitely NO.. :-)

  34. blake December 30th, 2010 at 1:26 pm

    Soriano has been healthy and very effective over the last two years. Unless Cash has a trade lined up that we don’t know about, he’s maybe the only option left that can make a significant difference for the 2011 team.

  35. MoRings42 December 30th, 2010 at 1:26 pm

    lol Palmiero got advice from George W Bush to “tell the truth”. Sure we believe you.. it’s just a coincidence that all of this links to a certain 2002 Texas Rangers team where just about everyone was juicing or rumored to be.. Irod, Juan Gonzalez, Palmeiro, Arod, Gabe Kapler etc

  36. Chris from NJ December 30th, 2010 at 1:27 pm

    Lots of clubs need good closers, if I were a successful closer i’d want a closer job and closer money. The yankees will probably wind up with a washed up closer like brian fuentes, meh. I like Soria a lot, but I agree that it’s probably silly to trade future pieces of our rotation for a bullpen arm. Though with the huge holes in the rotation as it stands, we will need many quality arms giving 2 innings a clip out of the pen at a clip, so it would make sense for the Yankes to sign a couple of reliable guys on 1 year deals.

  37. blake December 30th, 2010 at 1:27 pm

    Soriano also means you don’t have to save your lefties and other relievers for later in the game. You can use them earlier…..perhaps increasing the chances that you’ll have a lead after 8 innings.

  38. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 1:28 pm

    Blake:

    I think a reliable #3ish starter would better serve the Yankees better than Soriano would, but as you say, that will require either a trade….or Pettitte coming back.

  39. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 1:30 pm

    Jul 10, 2002 15 Day Disabled list – (Injury unknown)
    Aug 2, 2002 Activated
    May 11, 2004 15 Day Disabled list – (mild sprain of the ulnar collateral ligament in his right elbow)
    Apr 1, 2005 15 Day Disabled list – (recovering from Tommy John surgery)
    Sep 5, 2005 Activated
    Jul 29, 2006 15 Day Disabled list – (Injury unknown)
    Aug 4, 2006 Activated
    Apr 9, 2008 15 Day Disabled list – (Right elbow tendinitis)
    May 28, 2008 Activated
    Jun 14, 2008 15 Day Disabled list – (Right elbow)
    Jul 21, 2008 Activated
    Aug 3, 2008 15 Day Disabled list – (Right shoulder rotator cuff soreness)
    Sep 2, 2008 Transferred to 60 day DL.
    Nov 3, 2008 Activated

    I changed my mind. I don’t want Soriano’s busted elbow on the Yankees.

  40. G. Love December 30th, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    Soriano plus Mo allows Girardi to play matchups, which we all know he loves to do, earlier in the game.

    David Ortiz or Gonzalez comes up in the 6th with runners on, we can throw Feliciano out in the 6th or 7th rather than think we need to keep him for the later innings.

    That makes your bullpen deeper and more effective. Basically, Joe has to hope his starter gets him into the 6th with a quality start and the game is over if the offense scores runs.

    It’s a sledgehammer you get to use against your opposition. Most teams are throwing their poor relievers in the middle innings.

    We’d be throwing Robertsen, Feliciano and Joba who all, while not being ready to close, have shown the ability to be good set up men and in Feliciano’s case a lefty killer.

    I’d also hazard to say that once Wood got here and Robertsen and Joba pitched in lower leverage innings, they became more effective pitchers last season.

    You’d be letting talented relief guys pitch where the pressure is lowest psychologically. That appeared to help Joba last season rather than forcing him into the 8th.

    We saw it work in practice here last year once Wood solidified his role in the 8th inning.

    I don’t think it’s bluster to think that having a quartet of Robertsen, Joba, Feliciano and Logan to get us through the middle innings isn’t one of the better groups in the game.

    The problem is without a monster 8th inning guy, that quartet gets pushed later in the game where they don’t seem to be as effective as they proved in the middle innings.

    And who cares what the Yankees spend. They are locked up at every position on the field for multiple years. Money is coming off the payroll again next season.

    They should spend it on something that strengthens the team in the now. They have too many win now parts as it is to play “let’s rebuild”.

    God forbid Mo started showing his age you’d be wishing we had signed Soriano when all it would cost us was a pick.

    That said, paying Soriano to set up for Mo and close for him on days he can’t go is a good use of resources for a team with a pitching staff that lost it’s #2 starter in Andy and lost it’s 8th inning guy in Wood.

  41. blake December 30th, 2010 at 1:33 pm

    Mell,

    Yea I meant other than Pettite and that’s sorta out of their hands right now. If they can’t improve the rotation then strengthening the pen could help the thin rotation and provide help and insurance for Rivera.

  42. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 1:38 pm

    Carlo December 30th, 2010 at 1:14 pm
    Can’t we just sign soriano and then deal montero, chamberlain, a B, and nunez to seattle for Felix and call it a great success?

    ——————

    On an XBox sure – in real life, not so much I’m afraid.

  43. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 1:38 pm

    Off topic, but thinking about a small wager on this Pinstripe Bowl, but I look at these teams and it’s like trying to decide which of my toes to cut off with a dull steak knife. Anyone have thoughts? I know they both suck, but which is the tallest midget?

  44. West Coast Yankee Fan December 30th, 2010 at 1:41 pm

    We are a team with holes to fill and are going to worry about a draft pick? Come on.

  45. Jerzz December 30th, 2010 at 1:44 pm

    Soriano shortens the game because the guys who are currently scheduled to pitch the 8th (Joba/Robertson) get pushed back an inning.

    Also allows Girardi to use Feliciano/Logan much more liberally and doesn’t have to “save” one of them for the 8th inning to get a tough lefty because he’ll have a lockdown 8th inning guy that he doesn’t have to play matchup with.

  46. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 1:46 pm

    West Coast Yankee Fan December 30th, 2010 at 1:41 pm
    We are a team with holes to fill and are going to worry about a draft pick? Come on.

    —————–

    I could care less about the draft pick I just think there are guys out there who could fill the role just as well for a lot less money and years.

    Jon Rausch for example would be a very good EIG and won’t cost nearly what Soriano likely would.

    I also don’t anticipate Soriano as a realistic target given the sheer number of teams in need of a closer and Cashman’s desire to not pay closer money to non-closers. It’s more likely he gets a 1 year 9 mil contract from Tampa to close than a 3 year $45 mil contract from the Yankees to set up.

  47. blake December 30th, 2010 at 1:46 pm

    Jerzz,

    Yes.

  48. BX33 December 30th, 2010 at 1:48 pm

    The White Sox “flirted with the idea” of trading Gavin Floyd, but decided to keep their rotation together until Jake Peavy returns, according to SI’s Jon Heyman.

  49. blake December 30th, 2010 at 1:50 pm

    If Im Soriano then Im taking the most years and most money at this point in my career regardless of role. He’s 31 years old and its possible this will be his biggest contract. If he came to Ny and did well then he could line himself up to make even more money in the future.

  50. MaineYankee December 30th, 2010 at 1:51 pm

    Mell December 30th, 2010 at 1:38 pm
    Off topic, but thinking about a small wager on this Pinstripe Bowl, but I look at these teams and it’s like trying to decide which of my toes to cut off with a dull steak knife. Anyone have thoughts? I know they both suck, but which is the tallest midget?

    ——————————————————————-

    The baby toe.

  51. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 1:52 pm

    “The baby toe”

    I was thinking the same. But which foot?

  52. lounge lizard December 30th, 2010 at 1:53 pm

    As a rule, I’m a greedy fan. I wanted just about every big-ticket the Yanks have passed or missed. But I think Soriano would be a mistake. Don’t like the dynamic of giving a reliever a long term, particularly with the injury history. I see Marte redux (and times three or four in dollar cost).

    Rather have Rauch on a short term and spend the difference on a bat.

    So Cashman will probably sign Soriano.

  53. MaineYankee December 30th, 2010 at 1:53 pm

    Your choice.

  54. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 1:53 pm

    blake December 30th, 2010 at 1:50 pm
    If Im Soriano then Im taking the most years and most money at this point in my career regardless of role. He’s 31 years old and its possible this will be his biggest contract. If he came to Ny and did well then he could line himself up to make even more money in the future.

    —————–

    Blake – I don’t entirely disagree – I still think though that there is a team out there that will offer Soriano the same amount of money that the Yankees would be comfortable offering him and give him the chance to close.

  55. mick December 30th, 2010 at 1:55 pm

    Other than the few Monster deals FA activity has been sparse. The 3/15 deal for the RP, I forget who now, set the standard too high, which guys like Rauch, Fuentes and possibly Gregg are looking for now and not finding. There has been a correction of sorts as nobody is knocking their doors down, including Soriano it seems. He could fall in our lap, although it’s rare with a Boras client.

  56. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 1:56 pm

    Mell December 30th, 2010 at 1:52 pm
    “The baby toe”

    I was thinking the same. But which foot?

    ——————-

    all this talk about toes and feet – Rex Ryan is going to need a cold shower.

  57. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 1:57 pm

    mick December 30th, 2010 at 1:55 pm
    Other than the few Monster deals FA activity has been sparse. The 3/15 deal for the RP, I forget who now, set the standard too high, which guys like Rauch, Fuentes and possibly Gregg are looking for now and not finding. There has been a correction of sorts as nobody is knocking their doors down, including Soriano it seems. He could fall in our lap, although it’s rare with a Boras client.

    ————————

    3/15 was Benoit and Downs

    FA has been slow because the majority of players available have fatal flaws and want too much money.

  58. blake December 30th, 2010 at 1:57 pm

    Chip,

    That’s just depends on how much the Yankees are willing to offer.

  59. upstate kate December 30th, 2010 at 1:58 pm

    Mell
    gotta go w/ the local team…go ‘Cuse!!!

  60. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 2:01 pm

    Mick:

    If Soriano were looking for three years, he’d probably be locked up already. Scuttlebut is he’s looking for 4-5 years.

  61. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 2:02 pm

    We are a team with holes to fill and are going to worry about a draft pick? Come on

    ********

    In the deepest draft in recent memory in which you may be able to get a top ten talent at the bottom of the first round and when that pick would be going to your direct in division competitors that rely heavily on the draft for their success, it is certainly one of the major factors to consider in deciding whether to sign Soriano.

  62. 4 NYY December 30th, 2010 at 2:03 pm

    Get Soria, just don’t include Montero, Banuelos, or Betances in the deal !

  63. blake December 30th, 2010 at 2:07 pm

    LGY,
    It is a factor but that player that’s drafted wont help the Yankees for 3 or 4 years if they ever do at all. It stinks but the Yanks revenues allow them to weigh the present more in these situations…. you don’t give the pick for Downs or Balfour but I think you consider it for Soriano. I understand your POV though.

  64. West Coast Yankee Fan December 30th, 2010 at 2:11 pm

    How many draft picks don’t pan out? And, we are talking way down the road. You have the opportunity to recoup draft picks as well. If you can get a Soriano IMO you do it.

  65. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 2:11 pm

    blake December 30th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
    Chip,

    That’s just depends on how much the Yankees are willing to offer.

    ————————

    Obviously this is just a guess – but I would say they might be willing go go 3 at $7 or 8 per.

  66. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 2:13 pm

    4 NYY December 30th, 2010 at 2:03 pm
    Get Soria, just don’t include Montero, Banuelos, or Betances in the deal !

    —————-

    How about Francisco Cervelli straight up for Soria and then Joba and Ramiro Pena to the Mariners for King Felix and maybe Colin Curtis to Florida for Josh Johnson? Or is that too much to give up for a national league pitcher?

  67. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 2:15 pm

    “Obviously this is just a guess – but I would say they might be willing go go 3 at $7 or 8 per”

    For Rauch??? Way too high. I’d offer 3/$15M tops.

  68. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 2:15 pm

    What’s Soriano going to pitch, 65 to 70 innings? Without the leverage of the 9th inning it’s going to be hard to justify the salary Soriano will command. I just don’t see it.

    On the other hand, the 2012 FA class is thin. Maybe you just spend the $$ now.

  69. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 2:17 pm

    West Coast Yankee Fan December 30th, 2010 at 2:11 pm
    How many draft picks don’t pan out? And, we are talking way down the road. You have the opportunity to recoup draft picks as well. If you can get a Soriano IMO you do it.

    ——————–

    Does it concern you at all that Soriano’s K rate dropped from 12 per 9 IP to 8 per 9 IP?

    There’s nothing wrong with it not concerning you – I’m just curious if it does.

    Frankly, I like Soriano – but I can probably get 2 of Fuentes, Gregg and Rauch for the same money it would cost to just get Soriano and fill two spots in the pen rather than just one.

  70. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 2:17 pm

    Mell December 30th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
    “Obviously this is just a guess – but I would say they might be willing go go 3 at $7 or 8 per”

    For Rauch??? Way too high. I’d offer 3/$15M tops.

    ————–

    No – for Soriano.

  71. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 2:18 pm

    In this draft you are not talking about the normal bottom of the first round pick. You have a good chance of talking about a top ten talent and those type of talents especially if it is a college player could contribute sooner rather than later.

    Maybe even as soon as this season in some cases.

  72. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 2:18 pm

    “No – for Soriano”

    Oh. Probably too low then.

  73. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 2:20 pm

    For Rauch I would go 3/12
    Fuentes 2/10
    Gregg 2/8-10

    I would also be willing to consider a deal with the Twins for Joe Nathan if they’re so inclined.

    The Twins still have Matt Capps under contract and maybe they would want to spend Nathan’s money elsewhere. He would be a 1 year commitment for the Yankees. They could do a deal for a minor leaguer and a player to be named later – that player to be determined by Nathan’s health and recovery from TJ.

  74. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 2:23 pm

    LGY December 30th, 2010 at 2:18 pm
    In this draft you are not talking about the normal bottom of the first round pick. You have a good chance of talking about a top ten talent and those type of talents especially if it is a college player could contribute sooner rather than later.

    Maybe even as soon as this season in some cases.

    ——————

    That’s all well and good – and I respect your point on this. But when you factor in International Free Agency and overslotting later on in the draft – first round picks aren’t as important as they are in other sports. There are just so many talented players who aren’t a part of the draft at all that there’s always a way to bring in young talent if you have the right evaluators in place.

  75. 108 stitches December 30th, 2010 at 2:25 pm

    At 31, Soriano can’t be interested in any saves records. What Scott Boras and his client want is closer money based on what he’s shown.
    A 4-year deal gives him 2 years as the EIG / co-closer and 2 years as the primary closer.
    The window of opportunity is down to a handful of teams that would give him the money he seeks. The bullpen needs to be a strong point for the Yankees, particularly with the 3-4-5 starters being what they are.

  76. blake December 30th, 2010 at 2:29 pm

    LGY,

    The draft is still somewhat of a crapshoot no matter how good it is…..that doesn’t mean you throw away picks but I don’t think it means the Yankees should make the decision to avoid a player that can help them because of it either.

  77. BX33 December 30th, 2010 at 2:33 pm

    blake – Agree.

  78. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 2:35 pm

    A 4-year deal gives him 2 years as the EIG / co-closer and 2 years as the primary closer

    ******

    How do you know that when Month never said this is his last contract?

  79. blake December 30th, 2010 at 2:37 pm

    Don’t you hate it when auto type turns Mo into Month…..does it to.me all the time

  80. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 2:39 pm

    Obviously Mo not month.

  81. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 2:42 pm

    Haha Blake, I can’t stand it and I never notice it until I hit send :mad:

  82. Laura - I Bleed Blue December 30th, 2010 at 2:43 pm

    “Rafael Palmeiro is still claiming he never took steroids.”

    Yeah. And I’m Angelina Jolie.

  83. brianlopez22 December 30th, 2010 at 2:45 pm

    “How about Francisco Cervelli straight up for Soria and then Joba and Ramiro Pena to the Mariners for King Felix and maybe Colin Curtis to Florida for Josh Johnson? Or is that too much to give up for a national league pitcher?

    I hope this was your attempt at sarcasm…

  84. 4 NYY December 30th, 2010 at 2:48 pm

    # Chip December 30th, 2010 at 2:13 pm

    4 NYY December 30th, 2010 at 2:03 pm
    Get Soria, just don’t include Montero, Banuelos, or Betances.

    —————-

    How about Francisco Cervelli straight up for Soria and then Joba and Ramiro Pena to the Mariners for King Felix and maybe Colin Curtis to Florida for Josh Johnson? Or is that too much to give up for a national league pitcher?

    ——————————————————————————————–

    I was thinking more along the line of giving up Tex, Cano, Jeter, and Arod. PLUS A BILLION IN CASH.

    Or maybe choose from this list 3 guys :

    Joba, Phelps, Sanchez (p), Sanchez (c ), Warren, Laird, Nova, or Nunez.

    Cheap enough ??? Too much ???

  85. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 2:49 pm

    i’m looking at the twins pitching for this coming year and for last year.

    the starters are very different looking from yankee starters.

    they have a lot of guys 27-28 years old who have 4.5 eras who came up through their organization.

    they tend to be cheap at age 27-28 because they tend to come up at age 24-25.

    scott baker for example had a 4.49 era makes 5 million. he came up when he was 23-24. has 316 innings at triple a. baker was 12-9 last year.

    the yankees don’t have this kind of pitcher at all.

    the yankees have sabathia who the twins don’t have anyone like, and then the yankees have mitre at the fifth spot or burnett who they can’t release even if he’s bad because he’s being paid too much.

    the yankees don’t have the kind of middle of the road guys who the twins developed and who when all added up are better than the extremes of the yankee staff.

    the yankees idea of developing young pitchers seem to be to draft a blue chipper like hughes who’s good before he gets to them and move him through the system fast and get him on the mlb roster at about age 21 just because he’s good which he was before they got him.

    the twins approach is to take a second or third round guy give him 5-6 years in the minors with two to three years at triple a and start full time in the majors at age 25.

    the twins statistically are beating out the yankees and they are doing it a lot cheaper.

    the twins develop pitchers. the proof is in their starting rotation.

    take a look at brian dunning:
    http://www.baseball-reference......br01.shtml

    the yankees have no one like him.

    as i said, the twins develop pitchers.
    the yankees don’t.

    and that martha is why the yankees have a pitching problem this year and the twins don’t

  86. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 2:49 pm

    A draft pick this year absolutely helps you this year. Acquiring a nice talent in June frees up current prospects for trades that you’d normally hold onto.

  87. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 2:51 pm

    And the Twins pitching is why they will never win the world series. I would never want to develop like the Twins. They take control and command guys with fringe stuff who can’t strike anyone out, then are shocked when teams with power arms wipe the floor with them in the playoffs.

  88. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 2:51 pm

    “as i said, the twins develop pitchers.
    the yankees don’t.”

    The Yanks now have the perfect opportunity, don’t they?

  89. YankeesNmore December 30th, 2010 at 2:51 pm

    Can’t see Soriano or Soria with the Yankees. Perhaps if those players were injured and/or washed up sacks of dog$#!t, Brian Cashman might be motivated to wake up for a few seconds.

  90. 108 stitches December 30th, 2010 at 2:53 pm

    How do you know that when Mo never said this is his last contract?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Nothing is etched in stone. Mariano is still the best conditioned pure athlete on the team but if he’s still getting hitters out with regularity at 43 in 2013, more power to him.
    Peddle Soriano and the remaining 2 years of his contract to fill another need.

  91. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 2:53 pm

    jerkface,

    If you give the Twins the Yank offense the Twins are a juggernaut. You can’t knock the Twins rotation, it was better than ours.

  92. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 2:54 pm

    randy l -

    And when was the last time the Twins won the WS?

    If that is the measuring stick, which it is when talking about the Yankees, so it’s only fair to ask that question.

  93. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2010 at 2:55 pm

    Yankees legend Mariano Rivera’s son may be heading to play DI baseball at Quinnipiac University in Hamden, Conn

  94. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 2:56 pm

    “the twins statistically are beating out the yankees and they are doing it a lot cheaper”

    Don’t disagree, but constantly carrying a bunch of #3-#4 type starters into the playoffs has led them to a 3-21 record over their last 24 postseason games.

  95. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 2:56 pm

    And the Twins play most of their games against the ALCentral. And a good offense seems to handle Twins pitching.

  96. West Coast Yankee Fan December 30th, 2010 at 2:57 pm

    Chip – that drop doesn’t concern me in the least. Every player has fluctuations up and down every year. Looking at short-term stats is fraught with peril. When I look at Soriano’s overall performance in his career I see this:

    .273 ERA
    395 Innings Pitched
    277 Hits
    422 Strikeouts

  97. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 2:59 pm

    “Don’t disagree, but constantly carrying a bunch of #3-#4 type starters into the playoffs has led them to a 3-21 record over their last 24 postseason games.”

    Pavano and Liriano weren’t 3-4 starters last year.

    The Twins problem is their offense, it looks good when aggregated on paper but you can work your way through it.

  98. blake December 30th, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    One of the biggest issues with the Twins the mast two years is that their best hitter hasn’t been able to play in the postseason.

  99. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    How do the Twins not have pitching problems?

    Unless they bring Pavano back their rotation looks awful.

  100. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 3:02 pm

    Glad to see Randy doesn’t care that the Twins had Duensing split time in the bullpen and the rotation.

  101. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 3:02 pm

    “How do the Twins not have pitching problems?”

    I thought we were looking back not forward.

  102. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 3:04 pm

    Imagine if the Yankees brought up a kid as talented as Liriano and he had to get TJ surgery?

    Can you imagine how much randy would be blaming Cashman for that??

  103. blake December 30th, 2010 at 3:06 pm

    The Twins offense has been an issue but so has the pitch to contact guys they have had in their rotation. Those guys play ok over 162 games but in the postseason against the best competition when every AB is a grind…..they don’t historically fair too well.

  104. RayVT December 30th, 2010 at 3:06 pm

    Well the Twins get rid of their #1 type pitchers. See Santana & Garza, and Liriano would have been gone too except he got hurt & lowered his value. But they do teach their Potchers how to pitch like Randy said.

  105. RayVT December 30th, 2010 at 3:07 pm

    LOL! Potchers = Pitchers

  106. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 3:09 pm

    Scott Baker, spent 1 full season in the minors. Spent half of 2 others there before being called up the first time. Opened in the rotation at age 24 and got sent back down. He is basically Ian Kennedy.

    Your point sucks there.

    Blackburn had to repeat AA and struggled, he wasn’t held back by some mysterious pitching program. He was held back because he struggled in the minors. He wasn’t blue chip, and struggled at the level and then got held back. Kevin Slowey spent 1 full season in the minors. Came up at the end of his 2nd year. Because he dominated the minors.

    Glen Perkins was brought to the majors after only 1 full season in the minors, and spent time in the bullpen before moving to a starter.

    Jesus Randy, its like the Twins are basically any other organization in the league and nearly exactly like the Yankees. They don’t spend anymore time developing their prospects than anyone else. Their particular brand of soft tossing control artists tends to get lit up early and they get sent back down.

    But all these guys are cracking rotations at age 23 and SURPRISE they are college players.

  107. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 3:10 pm

    Wave:

    Fair enough. I think it’s a combination of both. In 2009, the Twins Games 1 and 2 starters were Brian Duensing and Nick Blackburn. While Pavano may have pitched more to a #2 starter’s numbers last year, his history screams something considerably less than that. In the AL he’s a career 4.55 ERA guy with a Burnett-like WHIP.

  108. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    Mell-

    Oh, that Pavano?

  109. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    The twins best starter in the last decade had to be developed at the major league level because he was a rule 5 pick. He split time between the bullpen and the rotation. His name was Johan Santana.

  110. yankee21 December 30th, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    …One of the biggest issues with the Twins the mast two years is that their best hitter hasn?t been able to play in the postseason….
    ——————–

    agree to a point Morneau is one of the best hitters in the game and he usually rakes against NYY, but the real issue for MIN is the lack of a shutdown starter in the play-offs, and the fact that their premium closer Nathan has either been hurt (2010) or ineffective in the PS.
    if this were NYY, Cashman would be blamed for failure to properly diagnose Mornequ to get him healthy and keep him healthy and also failure to have a shutdown starter for the playoffs, instead, the reality is MIN is almost universaly admired as one of the model franchises in the game…

    go figure..

  111. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 3:12 pm

    Randy,

    Please go back to scouring the bb-ref pages for a different organization to idolize, since you’ve been thoroughly outed on the Twins.

    Thanks

  112. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    Matt Garza didnt even spend 1 full season in the minors. He got called up the season right after he was drafted. Holy crap Randy, its like the Twins just rush their prospects.

  113. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 3:16 pm

    Maybe we could develop a pitcher like Adam Wainwright? He spent 1 whole season in the bullpen then the very next year threw 200 innings.

  114. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 3:18 pm

    Maybe we could develop someone like Jaime Garcia, bring him up after only 250 innings in the minors (his first season at age 19 155, 20 100) and then have him be injured for 2 years and then come back and be in the cy young race.

    it seems like all the best pitchers have varied and winding roads to the majors.

  115. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 3:19 pm

    Santana, Liriano, even Radke and Pavano. I think the Twins generally had excellent top of the rotation starters over the years, they just didn’t always pitch well in the playoffs for whatever reason.

    (Often because they had to face the Yanks!)

  116. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 3:22 pm

    “And the Twins pitching is why they will never win the world series. I would never want to develop like the Twins. They take control and command guys with fringe stuff who can’t strike anyone out, then are shocked when teams with power arms wipe the floor with them in the playoffs.”

    jerkface-

    who had the better pitching last year- twins or yanks?

    it’s quite obvious that the wins have a better staff at probably half the price.

    that’s because the twins actually invest time in developing pitchers and the yankees don’t.

    take away the free agents and have te two staffs compete against each other.

    it’d be no contest. the twins are the better organization by far at developing pitchers.

    your idea of developing pitchers isn’t really developing pitchers. it’s just getting really good guys who are good before they ever get to the yankees. give them two years at high a and double a and move that talent into the yankee rotation.

    that’s not development. that’s just signing good players.
    the yankees tend to not add value to what comes into the organization.
    the twins actually tend to make their young guys better.

    i have no problem if the yankees just want to go after guys like hughes or sabathia or lincecum when he’s a you free agent. just don’t pretend that development in the sense that the twins do it is what the yankees are doing.

  117. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 3:22 pm

    What’s wrong with the Yankee draft scouting anyway? Obviously, they should have been drafting pitchers who can jump right to the majors. Anyone can see that kind often turn out to be the best.

    Perverse.

  118. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 3:24 pm

    Wave, in Liriano’s best season he didn’t even pitch in the playoffs. Its true they had a good pitcher in Santana, but Radke and Pavano are not strike out guys. Good? Yes. Elite? No. The past 4 years have seen them with not a lot of high end talent in the rotation. If Liriano stays healthy that is going to change a bit, but the guys behind him are still incredibly suspect.

    Its easy to get through a season with guys who don’t walk anyone and don’t strike anyone out if you play good defense, but those types are not dependable in the postseason because you don’t want postseason offenses putting the ball in play.

  119. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 3:27 pm

    Randy,

    I already wiped the floor with your Twins argument. The twins rush their guys to the majors just as fast as the Yankees. Please move on to something else to spew about ad nauseum.

    Read my post where I carefully showed you how the twins broke all their pitchers into the big leagues with very few years spent in the minors ‘developing’.

    You’re mistaking the Twins draft and talent strategy for development. The twins draft guys with good control and average stuff. Then they bring them up the majors because guys with good control can do well in the minors.

    They all break into the rotation/twins bullpen at young ages, and then hang around.

  120. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 3:29 pm

    jerkface-

    I haven’t gone back and examined the box scores from Minnie’s last 24 post-season appearances, but I believe you are overgeneralizing as respects post-season pitching performance.

    I am not however defending randy’s point about how well Minnesota develops starting pitching, I have no view on that.

  121. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 3:29 pm

    The Twins had a better rotation because Andy got hurt. First half of the season before he got hurt the Yankees had a top 3 MLB rotation.

    Once the playoffs rolled around and Andy was healthy again you saw who had the better rotation when it mattered.

  122. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    If the Yankees were trusting the playoffs to guys like Kevin Slowey and Nick Blackburn, Cash would be getting killed.

  123. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 3:34 pm

    Randy -

    Yes if you take away the free agents then the Twins might have a chance against the Yankees, but here’s the key thing – free agents are part of the game.

    A team like the Twins, that doesn’t have the money of the Yankees has to develop and hang onto a Scott Baker or Brian Deunsing because they can’t afford to go out and sign AJ Burnett or CC Sabathia or trade for Javy Vazquez. The Yankees can. As a result the Yankees can afford to trade mid rotation guys – an Ian Kennedy for example – to fill other needs.

    The Yankees instead opt to fill their farm system with higher ceiling guys who are a little bit riskier – like an Andrew Brackman in need of TJ surgery. Because if he makes it, that’s great – if he doesn’t they can go out in the market and find someone to take his place. The Twins on the other hand can’t take that sort of risk – they need to focus their resources on guys who may not ever be stars, but they will likely make it to the majors in some capacity.

  124. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 3:35 pm

    “Once the playoffs rolled around and Andy was healthy again you saw who had the better rotation when it mattered.”

    To be fair, our pitchers were facing their hitters, and their pitchers were facing ours.

  125. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 3:35 pm

    “it seems like all the best pitchers have varied and winding roads to the majors.”

    jerkface-

    look at the twins starting staff pitcher by pitcher.

    look at the yankees starting staff pitcher by pitcher.

    if you can’t see the pattern and the difference you’re just being obtuse and arguing to argue.

    the twins take guys they tend to develop for 5-6 years and break them in the rotation when they are 24-25.

    and it works better than the way the yankees get their starting pitching and it’s at half the price.

    do you think the yankees have a pitcher like brian duensing ?

    i don’t think they do.

    they should.

    that would be development.

    you have to admit the yanks suck at developing starting pitching compared to the twins.

    it should be really easy to make a sabermetric stat that simply adds up the number of mlb innings a farm system produces that ends up in the major leagues and also that end up on that teams mlb roster.

    the twins are very good at developing pitchers who end up throwing a lot of inning son their mlb team.

    the yankees are not.

    you can continue denying that, but you appear to be just arguing to argue.
    you are making no sense.

    the twins produce probably three times as many

  126. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 3:38 pm

    the twins take guys they tend to develop for 5-6 years and break them in the rotation when they are 24-25.

    Actually, Randy, THEY DON’T. You keep lying, just lying to everyone wishing you were right.
    They draft college players, then break them into the majors 1.5 years after they arrive in the minors. Please shut up or start telling the truth. You’re devolved into ‘lies straight up to try and argue when he is wrong’ Randy.

    The only difference between the Yankee and Twins rotation is that the twins tend to stomach 5 ERA prospects hanging around in the majors more than the Yankees do. Subsequently they missed the playoffs most of the time.

    I will say this, the Twins stick with their guys longer than the Yankees because they have to. They won’t spend on good free agent pitching. That doesn’t mean they spend extra long in the minors developing their pitchers.

    I’ve clearly shown they don’t. They let them suck it up at the major league level.

  127. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    “To be fair, our pitchers were facing their hitters, and their pitchers were facing ours.”

    wave your hat-

    bingo!

    the yankees have recently produced some offensive players- cano, gardner, cervelli, melky, and obviously montero. they seem better at that than pitcher development.

    if you notice the offensive players tend not to be rushed . another factor is you can’t injure a young offensive player rushing him the way you can with a pitcher.

    after a half hour of looking at the twins stats for their starting pitchers it’s very apparent they develop pitcher very differently than the yankees do.

    they are much better at it.

    the end result- team era says it all.

  128. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    “I haven’t gone back and examined the box scores from Minnie’s last 24 post-season appearances, but I believe you are overgeneralizing as respects post-season pitching performance”

    Took a look at the last 12 postseason games for the Twins. They’ve lost ‘em all (leaving them 1 loss from tying the Red Sox for most consecutive postseason L’s). Starting pitcher ERA in those games was 5.42. 3 quality starts out of the 12 (Santana, Pavano, and Boof Bonser).

  129. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    “Subsequently they missed the playoffs most of the time. ”

    The Twinkies have made the playoffs 6 out of the last 9 years. Granted they don’t play in the AL East, but given their payrolls that’s pretty darn good.

  130. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    Francisco Liriano was the #6 prospect in all of baseball going into the 2006 season.

    The Twins decided however to start him in the bullpen in 2006.

    Then, midseason they shifted him to the rotation. Midseason!!!

    On May 13th, 2006 he came out of the bullpen and threw 32 pitches. 6 days later on May 19th he started a game and threw 68 pitches!!!

    32 to 68 pitches!!!! That is a big number! You need to increase slowly with young pitchers.

    Don’t the Twins know this?!?!

  131. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    Randy -

    The Twins and Yankees have different approaches to developing pitchers. Comparing the two organizations is like comparing Apples and Grapes.

    The Yankees take more risks, drafting guys who may not sign (Gerrit Cole) or are in need of surgery (Brackman) but might be studs than the Twins because the Yankees can fall back on signing guys like Sabathia – that’s not an option for the Twins.

    Also when Yankee veterans get to be expensive, the Yankees sign them. When Twin veterans get expensive – the recent trend had been to deal them for prospects, giving them a greater pool of near ML ready talent to work with. And while the Yankees tend to lose picks by signing free agents, the Twins tend to accumulate picks by losing free agents.

  132. jpb173 December 30th, 2010 at 3:43 pm

    The right approach is to sign Soriano and then move Joba back into the rotation.

    Let Montero, Betances and Banuelos start the season in the minors…they need further development.

  133. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 3:43 pm

    and the yankees developed austin jackson.

    it’s almost like they have two different minor league systems.

    the offensive one is good and the pitching one is bad.

  134. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 3:44 pm

    Mell-

    I know their starting pitching hasn’t shone in the playoffs. but I’m not prepared to lay the blame on pitching style. Sometimes good pitchers have a bad start.

  135. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 3:44 pm

    The Twinkies have made the playoffs 6 out of the last 9 years. Granted they don’t play in the AL East, but given their payrolls that’s pretty darn good.

    yea silly thing for me to say, still the Yankees would get killed for missing the playoffs 50% of the time. ((which is their rate post Santana, who was developed at the major league level)

  136. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 3:44 pm

    “To be fair, our pitchers were facing their hitters, and their pitchers were facing ours.”

    ———————

    The Yankees scored the most runs in baseball Post ASB 2010. 390 runs.

    The Twins scored the second most runs in baseball Post ASB 2010. 373 runs.

    And the Twins play in a huge home park.

  137. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 3:44 pm

    I don’t think there’s anyone who would argue that the Twins aren’t a good franchise.

    But the Yankees should no more adopt their strategy for success than they should adopt the strategy that made the Rays a good team (be awful for years and accumulate high draft picks that can all hit the majors at relatively the same time)

  138. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 3:45 pm

    Its almost like Randy doesn’t understand baseball, but I could have swore he once caught Frank Tatum.

  139. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 3:46 pm

    I agree with Randy, the Yankees should follow the twins pitching development plan.

    1 year in the minors, kick the kid up to the majors halfway into his 2nd year. Stick them all in the bullpen to break them in, then put them in the rotation without stretching them out.

    Its the twins way!

  140. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 3:46 pm

    Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 3:46 pm
    I agree with Randy, the Yankees should follow the twins pitching development plan.

    1 year in the minors, kick the kid up to the majors halfway into his 2nd year. Stick them all in the bullpen to break them in, then put them in the rotation without stretching them out.

    Its the twins way!

    ———————–

    Didn’t the Yankees do that with Joba and Kennedy and get some pretty awful results?

  141. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 3:47 pm

    “The Twins and Yankees have different approaches to developing pitchers. Comparing the two organizations is like comparing Apples and Grapes.”

    chip-

    the two approaches don’t need an analogy to explain them.

    one produces mlb starters for the mlb team and one doesn’t.

    the twins do produce netter starters.

    and that is because they take 2nd and third round picks and teach them something over a period of years.

    the yankees do not.

    it’s as simple as that.

  142. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 3:47 pm

    (Randy continues to fail to realize the difference between the Yanks and Twins is not ‘development’ but draft philosophy on which types of players to target. The Yankees could be just like the twins if they drafted a bunch of players with good control who don’t strike players out and pitch to contact)

  143. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 3:47 pm

    Didn’t the Yankees do that with Joba and Kennedy and get some pretty awful results?

    Don’t let Randy know that.

  144. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 3:49 pm

    “1 year in the minors, kick the kid up to the majors halfway into his 2nd year. Stick them all in the bullpen to break them in, then put them in the rotation without stretching them out.

    Its the twins way!”

    jerkface-

    if you are truing to prove you are the new blog moron, you’re doing a good job at it.

    what are you talking about?

  145. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 3:49 pm

    LGY-

    Like I said earlier, the Twins offense aggregates well, but in a given game I believe their lineup last post-season could be navigated much more easily than the Yanks’.

  146. Abe Peterham December 30th, 2010 at 3:52 pm

    Let’s face it, the odds of Mo hurting or getting hit are pretty inevitable.
    Sign Soriano now.

  147. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 3:53 pm

    what are you talking about?

    I’m talking about how wrong you are.

    Scott Baker – Drafted 2003, spent 1 full season 04 in the minors, called up to the majors 05
    Glen Perkins – Drafted 2004, spent 1 full season 05 in the minors, called up to the majors 06
    Kevin Slowey – Drafted 2005, spent 1 full season 06 in the minors, called up to the majors 07
    Matt Garza – Drafted 05, didn’t even spend 1 full season in the minors
    Johan Santana – Rule 5 draft pick, developed in the minors

    Half their pitchers move between the bullpen and the rotation without going back down to the minors.

    You’re just a mess, Randy, you’ve been eviscerated

  148. Mell December 30th, 2010 at 3:55 pm

    Wave:

    I don’t think you can blame it on that entirely, but I think it’s definitely had a role. Good offensive teams are going to handle that type of pitching, IMO. In the 12 game losing streak I speak of, 9 were against the Yankees and 3 were against an Oakland A’s team that featured some disciplined hitters like Frank Thomas, Swisher, Eric Chavez, Milton Bradley, etc. Guys who tend to rely on guile and pinpointing rather than great stuff will usually struggle against strong, disciplined lineup, which you tend to see a lot of in the playoffs.

    That said, having a bunch of Nick Puntos at the bottom of the lineup hasn’t helped ‘em either.

  149. ariel December 30th, 2010 at 3:57 pm

    Given the current state of the starting rotation, an “additional closer” to supplement Mo not only makes sense but may be a necessity. Mo can’t do back to back…. upscale relief probably will commence in the sixth inning, at the latest, three out of every five days, etc. We might “need” Joba in the sixth, Robertson in the seventh, Soria or Soriano in the eighth and Mo in the ninth, on a regular basis…..and then some.

  150. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 3:57 pm

    “Its almost like Randy doesn’t understand baseball, but I could have swore he once caught Frank Tatum.”

    jerkface -

    your jealousy is getting obnoxious.

    it’s not my fault you never got your nose off a computer monitor and out on a ball field.

    but that has nothing to do with the fact twins develop a pitching staff that is better than the yankee staff at half the cost.

    the yankee pitching development program is a joke compared to the twins’ program.

  151. 108 stitches December 30th, 2010 at 3:58 pm

    jpb173 December 30th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
    The right approach is to sign Soriano and then move Joba back into the rotation.

    Let Montero, Betances and Banuelos start the season in the minors…they need further development.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Chamberlain is not moving back into the rotation after having thrown 71.2 scattered innings last season.
    He should have asked Cashman / Girardi in November to be a starter again, got himself in (real) pitching condition, and either played winter ball or intend to report to Tampa in late January with the early arrivals to build arm strength.

  152. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 3:58 pm

    Wave

    On my phone right now so can’t get it but I remember reading an article about strike out pitchers corellsting with PS succEss

  153. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 3:59 pm

    Randy the closest you ever been to a front office is when you got your walking papers. You obviously don’t understand or cannot comprehend the twins development philosophy, as you continue to spout nonsense.

  154. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 4:00 pm

    Chamberlain is not moving back into the rotation after having thrown 71.2 scattered innings last season.

    If it worked for Adam Wainwright, it could work for Joba Chamberlain.

  155. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 4:00 pm

    Hold on, let me check if the Cardinals are on Randy’s approved list of pitching developers.

  156. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 3:47 pm
    “The Twins and Yankees have different approaches to developing pitchers. Comparing the two organizations is like comparing Apples and Grapes.”

    chip-

    the two approaches don’t need an analogy to explain them.

    one produces mlb starters for the mlb team and one doesn’t.

    the twins do produce netter starters.

    and that is because they take 2nd and third round picks and teach them something over a period of years.

    the yankees do not.

    it’s as simple as that.

    —————————–

    Randy,

    I could build a rotation right now out of pitchers developed by the Yankees who are in the majors and it would be pretty hard to argue that they wouldn’t be at least as good as the Twins rotation:

    Andy
    Hughes
    Lilly
    Westbrook
    Kennedy

    And Joba would probably be in that rotation as well since if the Yankees operated the way the Twins do then they wouldn’t have had the option of bouncing him from the rotation in the first place.

  157. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    Randy

    Who are these pitchers the Twins developed so well?

    Who are you even talking about?

  158. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    Name the pitcher and track his development path randy

  159. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    Sorry Randy, but you’ve gone off the deep end this time.

    The twins don’t “develop” pitchers, they just call up young players and don’t care how they perform… missing the playoffs because of this. They allow mediocre pitchers (the ian kennedy’s of the world) to wallow in 5 ERA hell until they “get it” or get dropped.

    The Yankee’s do the same thing, but they do it in AAA, not the ML roster.

    So you are OK with bringing up AAA pitchers, and not complaining when they pitch to a horrible ERA for 3 years while they are stil learning how to pitch? Somehow I doubt it, or you wouldn’t be complaining about a Joba return to the rotation (or some other similar move).

  160. joeman December 30th, 2010 at 4:03 pm

    # Giuseppe Franco December 30th, 2010 at 12:45 pm

    # KennyH123 December 30th, 2010 at 12:08 pm

    KC is gonna want Montero, either Banuelos or Betances, etc. etc. etc. Soriano will cost only money. Unless you count a draft pick, which is a crap shoot anyway. Montero, Banuelos and Betances are just prospects, but prospects with huge ceilings, and barring injury, all of them will at least play in the major leagues. A draft pick has a high probability of not turning into anything.

    The Yanks have the cash, sign Soriano as closer in waiting.

    ———–

    A closer in waiting for two years?

    Unrealistic fans on this site and in the Yankee blogosphere were demanding two years ago that the Yanks find an elite closer to pitch the 8th inning to prepare for Mo’s retirement.

    Now, two years later, Mo signed another two year deal.

    Find a closer when you need a closer – after Mo retires.

    An elite closer is not going to want to pitch the 8th inning to set up for Mo. Fans here may think it’s a privilege for an elite closer to set up for Mo but I’d be willing to bet said closers won’t see it that way.

    Saves = $$$$
    ————————————————————————————————————–

    well..well…finally something I agree with from you

  161. joeman December 30th, 2010 at 4:04 pm

    where’s the Mick…..above me

  162. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 4:04 pm

    “On my phone right now so can’t get it but I remember reading an article about strike out pitchers corellsting with PS succEss”

    I’m sure studies like that have been done, I’ve probably even read one, but I have no memory of any or what they may show.

    If someone has some links that would be cool.

  163. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 4:06 pm

    Mell,

    The Twins are interesting in that since they don’t develop swing and miss pitchers they fill their lineup with tremendous glove guys (the Nick Punto’s of the world). This works out well over the course of a long season but when you put pitchers who pitch to contact against a tremendous lineup like the Yankees you get the domination you’ve seen by the Yankees over the Twins in the last few post-seasons.

    The Yankees are just a bad match-up for pitchers who want you to put the ball in play because when guys like Tex, Alex, Cano and Posada put the ball in play – it tends to go far.

  164. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 4:06 pm

    Name the pitcher and track his development path randy

    He is going to name Brian Duensing. While ignoring Garza, Baker, Slowey, Perkins, Santana etc.

  165. pat December 30th, 2010 at 4:07 pm

    Like throwing raw meat to hungry dogs but here goes……….

    Ken_Rosenthal Sources: #Yankees not after R. Soriano. Talks for #Astros’ Keppinger went nowhere. E. Nunez playing 3B in DR. Could be team’s Infante. #MLB

  166. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 4:07 pm

    Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 4:02 pm
    Sorry Randy, but you’ve gone off the deep end this time.

    The twins don’t “develop” pitchers, they just call up young players and don’t care how they perform… missing the playoffs because of this. They allow mediocre pitchers (the ian kennedy’s of the world) to wallow in 5 ERA hell until they “get it” or get dropped.

    The Yankee’s do the same thing, but they do it in AAA, not the ML roster.

    So you are OK with bringing up AAA pitchers, and not complaining when they pitch to a horrible ERA for 3 years while they are stil learning how to pitch? Somehow I doubt it, or you wouldn’t be complaining about a Joba return to the rotation (or some other similar move).

    ———————-

    Well said.

  167. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 4:07 pm

    Or he’ll name Blackburn, while ignoring the fact he had to repeat a level and the same thing would have happened in the Yankee system. And of course he is going to ignore the fact that a guy like David Phelps is going to have more minor league innings in total than these Twins pitchers before he touches the big leagues.

  168. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 4:10 pm

    Liriano is a strikeout pitcher, but didn’t fair well against the Yanks. Blackburn isn’t a KO pitcher, but pitched well against the Yanks in 2009. Pavano isn’t a KO pitcher, but pitched well once (in 2009) and didn’t pitch well once (in 2010). Duensing isn’t, and didn’t pitch well twice.

    In general, strikeout pitchers pitch better because they are better. But on a micro level like a few post-season series I think you need to be careful about drawing too many conclusions.

  169. mick December 30th, 2010 at 4:13 pm

    gotcha signal joeman, figured it out on my own, they are scarce these days as is my nemesis

  170. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 4:15 pm

    Now I get the vitriol directed at randy.

    This isn’t about the Twins at all, it’s about what the Yanks are going to do in 2011. Randy is making a veiled defense of pitching the kids, which really exercises some people.

    Let’s all tear off the masks.

  171. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 4:17 pm

    my vitriol is directed at Randy because his arguments are almost always 90% made up with no solid ground to stand on.

  172. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    But look out he’ll spin an analogy about Badminton to try and prove a point.

  173. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    randy would have a heart attack looking at Duensing’s game log from 2009 with the amount his pitchers per appearance went up and down.

    How about he makes more than 22 starts spread over 2 seasons as a 26 and 27 year old before we proclaim him the model for the way pitchers should be developed?

  174. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    randy needs to read the article on fangraphs today about opinions vs factual assertions.

  175. mick December 30th, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    randy has stood on the hollowed grounds of baseball gods

  176. mick December 30th, 2010 at 4:20 pm

    wow look at the snow at the Stadium…snow and ice …and the Giants wore sneakers…

  177. austinmac December 30th, 2010 at 4:21 pm

    Pat,

    Thanks for that “news”. Wouldn’t it be nice for the news to be the Yankees were actually in pursuit of someone?

  178. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    Wave,

    My issue isn’t about pitching the kids or not pitching the kids – it’s the wrong notion that the Yankees don’t develop quality pitchers.

    The Yankees in fact do develop pitchers but in many cases those pitchers are then moved to fill other needs because the Yankees have the ability to go out on the market and replace them with better pitchers.

    As I said, if you wanted to build a rotation of Yankee developed pitchers I would put it right up against the current Minny rotation and be quite happy with my chances.

  179. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 4:24 pm

    P.S. I love twitter twits.

    10am this morning, Jon Heyman says the yankees are “looking into” Soriano.

    4:15pm, Rosthenthal says the Yankees are not interested in Soriano.

    4:25pm… I say neither of them should be allowed to have an opinion on anything.

  180. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 4:25 pm

    Wave,

    And yes, if the Yankees had the financial limitations of the Twins, then I would say “heck with it – let Nova, Noesi, Phelps, and Warren handle the back of the rotation and let Montero and Cervelli do all the catching.”

    But the Yankees don’t have the financial limitations of the Twins which gives them the luxury of bringing these young kids along slowly and providing them with the best chance to succeed.

  181. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 4:26 pm

    Wave,

    Liriano had endurance questions last year heading into the playoffs though.

    He was handling the Yankees very well until it looked like he got tired and just lost it.

  182. mick December 30th, 2010 at 4:26 pm

    P.S. I love twitter twits.
    ==================
    Why do people bother with the nonsense that is twitter?

  183. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 4:27 pm

    “But the Yankees don’t have the financial limitations of the Twins which gives them the luxury of bringing these young kids along slowly and providing them with the best chance to succeed.”

    ———————–

    That is the thing that randy is wrong about.

    The Twins actually DO NOT bring their kids along slowly.

  184. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 4:28 pm

    “As I said, if you wanted to build a rotation of Yankee developed pitchers I would put it right up against the current Minny rotation and be quite happy with my chances.”

    That wouldn’t be fair, though, because you’d be cherry-picking the best Yankee developed pitchers vs. a specific rotation of Minnie’s.

    However, if randy wants to list the 10 top Minnesota pitchers from their farm system in the last 10 years, and jerkface wants to do the same with Yankee farm products, we could then all judge who did the best.

  185. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 4:30 pm

    “Who are these pitchers the Twins developed so well?

    Who are you even talking about?”

    lgy-

    what am i talking about?

    what are you talking about?

    take some time and look at the twins starting pitchers:

    http://www.baseball-reference......2010.shtml

    look at their minor league time.

    look when they came up.

    look at the results.

    the bottom line is they beat out the yankees in pitching era last year with the way they do it.

    i’m juts plain bored with this blog being filled full of all this yankee developmental nonsense.

    look at what the twins did and do.

    if you or anyone else doesn’t want to take the time to do it,that’s your choice.

    i’m just totally tired of listening to the myth of yankee pitching development.

    the twins produce.

    the yankees don’t.

  186. Chip December 30th, 2010 at 4:30 pm

    LGY December 30th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
    “But the Yankees don’t have the financial limitations of the Twins which gives them the luxury of bringing these young kids along slowly and providing them with the best chance to succeed.”

    ———————–

    That is the thing that randy is wrong about.

    The Twins actually DO NOT bring their kids along slowly.
    —————

    I think he’s basing it on age – I don’t have the results in front of me but I would bet that the majority of the pitchers the Twins draft are guys who spent 3 or 4 years in college vs a guy like Hughes who was drafted out of HS.

  187. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 4:32 pm

    Please do not insult the readers of this good blog by asking them to do your homework for you when you’ve already been proven wrong Randy.

  188. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 4:33 pm

    randy,

    I looked at all that stuff and unless you have a different website than me, I don’t see at all what you are talking about.

    Maybe they have a different baseball-reference for old fans?

    http://www.baseballreference.c.....stuffup???

    Maybe you are looking at the Spanish version of the website and you are not translating well?

    I honestly don’t know who you are talking about. Jerkface listed the pitchers and their development path and it runs completely counter to your assertions. I checked them as well.

    What pitchers are following this plan you are saying they have?

  189. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 4:34 pm

    It made a link out of my website :mad:

    Should be /statistics.oldgeezers.makestuffup :(

  190. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 4:37 pm

    Wave,

    One last point on the Twins in the playoffs vs not making it. Their average number of wins and losses the past decade is so far behind the Yankees. They made the playoffs with 87 wins one year. So some of their success has to be attributed to their division. They would not have succeeded in the AL east with the pitching staffs they are rushing to the majors.

  191. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 4:37 pm

    The Twins play in a gigantic ballpark and their Team ERA last year was ranked 5th in the AL with 3.95 ERA, while the Yankees were ranked 7th with a 4.06 ERA. Huge difference. And the Yankees lost their #2 for half the season.

  192. mick December 30th, 2010 at 4:38 pm

    That’s a great staff the Twins had last year. Wasn’t their top guy Pavano a FA?

  193. SAS December 30th, 2010 at 4:39 pm

    One thing I have taken from this conversation is that the Yankees are not doing as well at developing major league pitchers as other teams do. It can’t all be blamed on drafting at the bottom each year; some of it obviously is how they are being coached once drafted. The Yankees have had a handful of pitchers that have made the big leagues anywhere, not just for the Yankees. It is almost inconceivable that so few guys have made the majors out of the Yankee’s system not just on the Yankees, but any team.

    I think my solution for the future would be to find the best teaching coaches in the minors to take advantage of the guys that are drafted. Without that it doesn’t matter how many guys are drafted f a greater percentage if they don’t make the Majors.

    Right now, I would try to sign Soriano. Rivera can’t be available as often as he has been in the past, and having Soriano in the 8/9 inning spot would be worth a number of wins for the Yankees this coming year. All the hitting in the world will not win games if your late inning guys give it up.

  194. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 4:40 pm

    The Yanks have fewer rotation slots to fill each year than do the Twins.

    That simple fact drives everything else.

    The Yankees can take more chances with their picks, because fewer of them need to make it. That means the Yanks can gamble on high school pitchers more often than many teams.

    The Twins can afford fewer failures, so they will tend to pick college pitchers who are closer to finished products

    The Twins will produce more major league pitchers, by definition. Sometimes those Twins’ pitchers will be good, and sometimes they will have to appear in the majors before they are 100% ready.

    This year, though, the Yanks find themselves in the Twins’ customary position. Their response is going to look a lot like what the Twins would do.

  195. West Coast Yankee Fan December 30th, 2010 at 4:41 pm

    Bartolo Colon?????

  196. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 4:43 pm

    The Yankees could have a rotation filled with guys who perform less than league average and don’t come close to 200 IP. They’d be the Twins, but at least we could say they use the minor league system.

  197. West Coast Yankee Fan December 30th, 2010 at 4:44 pm

    In his one postseason start with the Leones in the Dominican Winter League, Colon gave up four runs on 12 hits in 5 2/3 innings.

  198. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 4:44 pm

    All these pitchers the Twins ‘developed’ were drafted when the Yankees sucked at drafting, and were rushed at age 23 to the majors and then hung around on the twins until now.

    Lets revisit the Twins v Yankees in 5 years. We’ll see whose pitchers are doing better.

    Ian Kennedy put up a swell season last year, more than could be said for Kevin Slowey and Nick Blackburn

  199. mick December 30th, 2010 at 4:45 pm

    If the Yankees took the same tact as the Twins wouldn’t it produce the same results as the Twins ?
    In a big market instant results are expected. We don’t have the luxury to cultivate mediocre pitching staffs.

  200. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 4:45 pm

    I’ll take Hughes v Scott Baker

  201. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 4:48 pm

    “However, if randy wants to list the 10 top Minnesota pitchers from their farm system in the last 10 years, and jerkface wants to do the same with Yankee farm products, we could then all judge who did the best.”

    wave your hat-

    you’re not one of the morons i’m going off on right now, but it doesn’t take a big debate or analysis to look at the twins starting 2010 rotation and what they have for this year and look back at their minor league development. you can also see how little they’re paid.

    http://www.baseball-reference......2010.shtml

    just do this , take a little time. you see the kind of guys that don’t exist in the yankee organization. slowey,baker, blackburn, duensing. etc.

    these guys come into the twins system and 5 years later are league average starters.

    the yankees don’t develop these kind of starters for the yankees.

    it’s plain as day for anyone who wants to look objectively.

  202. mick December 30th, 2010 at 4:49 pm

    Wasn’t Andy Pettitte home grown and Phil Hughes?

  203. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 4:50 pm

    lmao I wish we had a Nick Blackburn sitting around, who had a 5.45 ERA. So basically Randy, you’re saying the yankees should rush these players to the majors and have them sit around and compile bad stats but be cheap?

    Is that it?

    We can do that next season. Put Nova and Phelps in the starting rotation and we’ll be the twins. 2 free agent pitchers and 3 cheap guys putting up ERA’s between 4 and 6

    Did you miss Slowey pitching at age 23-25? Did you literally only look at 2010?

  204. mick December 30th, 2010 at 4:51 pm

    slowey,baker, blackburn, duensing. etc.
    =========================
    Yankee fans would revolt if this were their staff.

  205. clownthrowindown December 30th, 2010 at 4:53 pm

    Pettitte and Hughes? That’s two guys in FIFTEEN years.

  206. mick December 30th, 2010 at 4:55 pm

    Would you want the Yanks to have been the Twins the past 15 years?

  207. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 4:56 pm

    2010 ERA+

    Slowey: 93
    Baker: 92
    Blackburn: 77

    Duensing is the only guy who fit the “league average starter description” last year and he started a whopping 13 games.

  208. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 4:56 pm

    “I’ll take Hughes v Scott Baker”

    jerkface-

    hughes is good. who else would you take ?

    who matches up with slowey,baker, blackburn, duensing. etc?

    i’m not even throwing liriano in there though he spent more time in the twins minor league system than hughes.

    liriano spent 450+ innings in the twins minor league system.

    i should throw liriano in there.

    the twins did develop him.

  209. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 4:56 pm

    “Yankee fans would revolt if this were their staff.”

    No one will revolt if Nova puts up Slowey’s 2008 numbers. Or if Phelps or Mitchell puts up Blackburn’s 2008 numbers.

    It is far from impossible for the pitchers the Yanks have right now in the high minors to replicate the success that Twins pitchers often have. Of course, the other side of the coin is they might not do so well either.

  210. BX33 December 30th, 2010 at 4:57 pm

    “Bartolo Colon?????”

    lol. It’s fitting for this offseason, isin’t it? Settling for 2nd tier washed up veterans rather than 1st tier ones.

  211. ericns1 December 30th, 2010 at 4:57 pm

    The stupid Angels could not have been smarter with Carl Crawford and taken him out of the East!

  212. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 4:58 pm

    randy,

    You don’t want to throw Liriano in there.

    Unless you want to get into injuries and pitch count jumps.

    You have been talking about how poorly the Yankees handled Joba for 3 days. You don’t want to bring up Liriano after all those comments.

  213. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 4:59 pm

    The best pitcher the Twins farm system produced in the past 5 years is Matt Garza, and he spent not even a year in the minor leagues before coming up to the majors. Sad, sad, Randy.

  214. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 5:00 pm

    randy,

    Post how the development track of Slowey, Baker, Duensing, and Blackburn fits your description of how the Twins develop pitchers and get back to us.

    Jerkface completely blew that up, so you are going to have to respond to that.

  215. clownthrowindown December 30th, 2010 at 5:01 pm

    Would you want the Yanks to have been the Twins the past 15 years?
    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………..

    That has absolutely nothing to do with the point you attempted to make.

    Its pretty obvious the Yankees have been superior due to a significant payroll advantage that allowed them to buy top pitchers and hitters.

    A more interesting question would be do you think Cashman and his crack baseball people could be as competitive as Minnesota year in year out if they didn’t have $200M to spend on payroll?

  216. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 5:02 pm

    A more interesting question would be do you think Cashman and his crack baseball people could be as competitive as Minnesota year in year out if they didn’t have $200M to spend on payroll?

    If they were in the AL Central, sure.

  217. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 5:02 pm

    And I guess missing the playoffs 50% of the time is competitive.

  218. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 5:04 pm

    lgy-

    baker 4.49era
    slowey 4.45era
    liriano 3.62era
    deunsing 2.62era

    all developed by the twins.

    i don’t see the yankees developing anyone even close in innings and era.

  219. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 5:04 pm

    The Yankees averaged 97 wins the past 10 years, the Twins 88. They are just oh so competitive though.

  220. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 5:06 pm

    baker 4.49era
    slowey 4.45era
    liriano 3.62era
    deunsing 2.62era

    Scott Baker – Drafted 2003, spent 1 full season 04 in the minors, called up to the majors 05
    Kevin Slowey – Drafted 2005, spent 1 full season 06 in the minors, called up to the majors 07
    Liriano – International free agent, spent formative years in rookie leagues and short season. Once he started pitching for real at age 20, was immediately rushed to the majors (lmao twins development strikes again!)
    duensing – the one guy you are hanging your hat on, hasn’t even been a full time starter in the majors.

  221. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 5:07 pm

    randy – are you building a straw house?

    You do realize that those statistics you keep pointing to about their minor league service time DO NOT SUPPORT YOUR POSITION.

    By your argument, the Yankees should have left hughes/kennedy/joba in the rotation and let them struggle for 3 years. You are completely OK with not making the playoffs to develop those pitchers.

    The fact that the twins call up more guys from the minors has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with their development, but with the twins lack of options. Just because you CAN call up players does not meant hat you SHOULD, especially considering the results they have gotten.

    The FACT of the matter is that RIGHT NOW there are more successful pitchers in the majors that were developed by the Yankees than the Twins.

  222. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 5:08 pm

    You seem to have a problem with the Yankees scouting and drafting in the early 2000s, not the pitching development. Perhaps you’d like to take a look at the Yankees cache of arms in 3 years when the Yankees very nice looking crop of pitchers are in the majors.

  223. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2010 at 5:10 pm

    SI_JonHeyman Jon Heyman
    RT @shannondrayer Well, this is not good. RT @TheRealMariners #Mariners have announced Aardsma will have surgery to repair torn hip labrum

  224. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    So the Twins can magically “develop” pitchers in 1 year? lol… BUSTED.

  225. Red Lobster December 30th, 2010 at 5:12 pm

    “#Mariners have announced Aardsma will have surgery to repair torn hip labrum”

    Ugh… he would have been nice for the 8th inning and could have been had for something like Joba + Cervelli.

  226. West Coast Yankee Fan December 30th, 2010 at 5:13 pm

    Just to change the subject. Anyone here have an opinion as to how the Yankees and Twins pitching development compares?

  227. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 5:14 pm

    The best pitcher the Twins farm system produced in the past 5 years is Matt Garza, and he spent not even a year in the minor leagues before coming up to the majors. Sad, sad, Randy.

    jerkface-

    matt garza spent 4 seasons in the minor leagues for a grand total of 307 innings.

    i was sitting in the twins triple a manager’s office when garza came in to complain about something and was sent right back out with his take between his legs so don’t tell me about garza and the twins .

    if it wasn’t for the twins developing garza he might not have made it. he was a real headcase who did not want to spend those 300 innings in the twins minor league system and that’s why he was traded.

    it was the best thing for him to have to stay down when he didn’t want to. and i’ll bet as he matures he’ll say so. stu cliburn was his twins pitching coach and is a good friend of mine.

  228. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 5:16 pm

    “You seem to have a problem with the Yankees scouting and drafting in the early 2000s, not the pitching development”

    jerkface-

    actually i’m starting to have a problem with you.

  229. blake December 30th, 2010 at 5:17 pm

    Aardsma is having labrum surgery but the Ms wanted an impact bat for him.

  230. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 5:19 pm

    “The FACT of the matter is that RIGHT NOW there are more successful pitchers in the majors that were developed by the Yankees than the Twins.”

    you think that the yankees have more quality homegrown pitchers in their rotation than the twins do?

    no wonder i almost never read your comments.

    this blog has gone to crap.

  231. West Coast Yankee Fan December 30th, 2010 at 5:20 pm

    Someone bring Jerface a smoothy, a granola bar and a port-a-potty. I wonder if he sleeps with his head on the keyboard.

  232. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 5:20 pm

    matt garza spent 4 seasons in the minor leagues for a grand total of 307 innings.

    i was sitting in the twins triple a manager’s office when garza came in to complain about something and was sent right back out with his take between his legs so don’t tell me about garza and the twins .

    Spent 4 seasons in the minor leagues for 307 innings while getting significant Major league time only 1 season removed from being drafted. I have already debunked this.

    The twins rushed up Garza. Its plain for all to see.

    Drafted in June 05 out of college, pitches in the rookie league and ends in A ball.
    06 – pitches in the minors, starts 9 games in the majors 1 year after being drafted.
    07 – pitches in the minors, starts 15 games in the majors.
    08 – Major league starter

    Oh you sat in an office while Garza was there? Good for you, it seems to have given you very little insight into how he was actually developed.

  233. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 5:21 pm

    hey gb7-

    how’s life?

    i need to talk to a normal person.

    you can only take so much jerkface, lgy, etc

  234. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 5:21 pm

    And Jerkface sends Randy out of the office with his tail between his legs, hilarious.

  235. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 5:23 pm

    Garza likely did not even learn the names of his coaches he spent so little time at each level.

  236. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 5:25 pm

    randy – dont change what i SAID. The Yankees have developed more pitchers that are pitching in the MAJOR LEAGUES right now than the Twins have. Just because the Yankees trade away a pitcher at the end of their development doesn’t lose them all credit for doing so.

    You are just stubborn and ignorant when you are so very obviously wrong about this.

    I don’t care if you don’t read my comments, you are only cheating yourself. You think you know better than everyone and you are beyond reproach. You are a fool.

  237. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 5:29 pm

    However the Twins developed him, I wish the Yanks signed more pitchers like Matt Garza.

  238. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 5:30 pm

    “Spent 4 seasons in the minor leagues for 307 innings while getting significant Major league time only 1 season removed from being drafted. I have already debunked this.”

    jerkface-

    you’re just wasting peoples time arguing something like saying garza didn’t spend a significant amount of time in the minors. 300 innings is significant over three years and he was a college pitcher who was a late first round pick(25th). he was not fast tracked the way you like. he just wasn’t.

    the real point is baker , slowey, liriano, duensing , blackburn, garza being developed by the twins recently.

    the twins are not drafting high as they are usually a playoff team.

    the yankees have developed hughes. maybe wang if you go back.

    the twins are kicking the yankees butt in pitching development.

  239. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2010 at 5:30 pm

    randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 5:21 pm
    hey gb7-

    how’s life?

    i need to talk to a normal person.

    you can only take so much jerkface, lgy, etc

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    LMAO. Randy, I’m not sure that I know what normal means. I’ve been called a lot of things, but, that sounds like an insult.

    How are things going…beyond the “Friendly Confines” of Lohud Field? To be perfectly honest on this ongoing subject, I’m not so sure either team has a very good track record of developing/producing pitchers that have stayed healthy over the last few years. I can’t give Minnesota credit for developing Liriano. Other than that, I’m not getting involved in this. Just not that interested in the whole thing.

  240. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 5:33 pm

    he was not fast tracked the way you like. he just wasn’t.

    So you’re saying Matt Garza did not pitch in the majors 1 year after he was drafted??

  241. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 5:33 pm

    Is there an easy way to look up what franchises minor league system a pitcher came up through on a massive (think: league wide) scale?

  242. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2010 at 5:36 pm

    Look at baseball-reference.com under draft.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/

  243. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 5:37 pm

    David Phelps has been developed better by the Yankees than Matt Garza. They haven’t rushed him to the majors 1 year after he was drafted. Good for them.

  244. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 5:38 pm

    I’m sure the 90 innings in AAA really helped straighten Matt Garza out. Hopefully all of our prospects can get 90 innings in AAA (after spending 50 innings in the major leagues)

  245. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 5:42 pm

    “David Phelps has been developed better by the Yankees than Matt Garza. They haven’t rushed him to the majors 1 year after he was drafted. Good for them.”

    Jerkface, development is your and randy’s argument. If Phelps 2011 turns out like Garza 2007 I’ll be ecstatic.

    I’d like to see him get the chance.

  246. BIG AL December 30th, 2010 at 5:42 pm

    How can anyone give credit to how the Twins develop pitching, saying they do a better job than the Yankees. First, they get much higher draft picks, and look at what they did in over using Francisco Liriano, they almost destroyed his career.

    I’m sick and tired of all this talk on a Yankees blog about how much better other teams are on different fazes of team development, yet you can’t name me 1 team more successful at winning than the Yankees.

    Everyone should be proud of this team, and all the greatness you as fans have had the pleasure of enjoying, but no, it’s never enough to satisfy some here. I guess going 162-0 would be a start, but, I’m sure there would still be some that would find enough fault to vent their displeasure or hatred of some player, manager or FO person.

  247. pat December 30th, 2010 at 5:43 pm

    If the Yankees were the Twins, Ohlendorf and Karstens and Kennedy might be in the rotation and fans would just have to deal with it because reasonably priced arms outweigh the negatives of working through growing pains.

  248. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 5:43 pm

    Is there an easy way to look up what franchises minor league system a pitcher came up through on a massive (think: league wide) scale?

    There is no easy way to see the path a player has taken, the best is to just look for who you want and check their minor league stats.

  249. blake December 30th, 2010 at 5:44 pm

    I like Phelps.

  250. Red Lobster December 30th, 2010 at 5:45 pm

    Wang, Kennedy, Ohlendorf, Coke, Dunn, Aceves, Karstens, Veras, Clippard, Westbrook, Melancon, are all Yankee farm products that are doing well elsewhere.

    Yankees mL development is fine.

  251. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 5:46 pm

    “However the Twins developed him, I wish the Yanks signed more pitchers like Matt Garza.”

    wave your hat-

    the development of garza by the twins was important in him making it to the majors and he fought it all the way. stan and stu cliburn were his triple a manager and pitching coaches. garza butted heads so much that they finally traded him because of his attitude.

    my point in bring up the twins approach to pitching development is it’s very different than the way the yankees do it. the twins have a whole mlb staff of home grown pitchers. the yanks are scuffling right now which is a shame considering how much money they have.

    i’m just saying that maybe the yankees if they really want to develop pitchers in the sense of actually teaching them over time and making them better might want to do it more the way the twins do it.

    right now the yankees have hughes and nova in their rotation . that doesn’t compare to liriano, baker, duensing, slowey,etc.

    the yankees really need to slow their starting pitchers down and actually teach them how to be better pitchers. this takes time.

    if the yankees don’t want to take the time, then i think they should chuck development and just buy pitchers.

  252. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 5:46 pm

    Jerkface, development is your and randy’s argument. If Phelps 2011 turns out like Garza 2007 I’ll be ecstatic.

    I’d like to see him get the chance.

    Me too, the yankees have a bunch of very interesting pitchers about to emerge onto the major league scene.

  253. raymagnetic December 30th, 2010 at 5:47 pm

    Wave Your Hat,

    This is taken from Baseball Between the Numbers with regards to strikeout pitchers in the playoffs.

    http://books.google.com/books?.....38;f=false

  254. P December 30th, 2010 at 5:47 pm

    Yeah we got holes, but this team needs some life.. it’s easy to get lost in the stats and the potential of all the talent we have.. but I’m not buying it. Yankees FO have been making a lot of mistakes.. Started with Matt Holliday.. and Yes Crawford was part of our plans but we blew it.. Sox knew we were interested and weren’t playing around.. sure they can have him for that kinda money, but that is not the point..

    there are just way too many variables for next season that make me really uncomfortable and I do know there is still time left to iron things out.. but you have to have options in order to make moves.

    but somebody said it earlier here, “Yankee fans are bored”. Last year was boring to watch this team play, I totally agree and am afraid this year is going to be worse.

    Not trying to be mr negative, I just want this team with the FO Included to MAKE SOME NOISE!

  255. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 5:48 pm

    i’m just saying that maybe the yankees if they really want to develop pitchers in the sense of actually teaching them over time and making them better might want to do it more the way the twins do it.

    So you’re fine with the Yankees rushing their prospects to the major leagues and then having them struggle to learn their craft at the majors like the twins take it?

    You seem to just want Home Grown Pitchers in the Rotation, which is what the Yankees are currently working towards.

  256. BIG AL December 30th, 2010 at 5:48 pm

    Aceves was not a Yankees farm product, he was signed out of the Mexican League.

    Jeff Karstens is still pitching for the Pirates as well.

  257. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 5:49 pm

    The Yankees don’t have time to let Scott Baker throw 800 league average innings at the major league level, they are too busying averaging 97 wins.

  258. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 5:51 pm

    Twins way: Rush pitchers to the majors, jerk them around between the minors and majors, jerk them around between the bullpen and rotation

    Lets do it the Twins way!

  259. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 5:53 pm

    “If the Yankees were the Twins, Ohlendorf and Karstens and Kennedy might be in the rotation and fans would just have to deal with it because reasonably priced arms outweigh the negatives of working through growing pains.”

    pat-

    i think i agree, but could you clarify what you mean by “fans would just have to deal with it because reasonably priced arms outweigh the negatives of working through growing pains.”

  260. pat December 30th, 2010 at 5:53 pm

    “right now the yankees have hughes and nova in their rotation . that doesn?t compare to liriano, baker, duensing, slowey,etc.”

    I wonder who of Liriano, Baker, Duensing or Slowey would be in the Twins rotation if they had the Yankees budget to work with?

  261. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 5:53 pm

    Getting called up to the Majors and being a below league average pitcher is an accomplishment now? A sign of good development? The Yankee’s have about 8 arms that could do that tomorrow. Unfortunately they also want to win. The twins “plan” is not conducive to winning. They “end up” winning.

  262. BIG AL December 30th, 2010 at 5:57 pm

    Let’s all agree the Twins have such great pitching, they manage to win in the weak AL Central, but, they can’t get past the first round of the PS.

    That would play real well in NY.

    Later folks.

  263. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 5:57 pm

    “So you’re fine with the Yankees rushing their prospects to the major leagues and then having them struggle to learn their craft at the majors like the twins take it?”

    jerkface-

    the twins do not rush pitchers to the majors.

    i’m fine with the fifth starter on the yankees being a young guy and pitching to a 5.5 era to get started in the major leagues.

    if he can then lower that over the next few years to a 4-4.50 era then you have a pitcher.

    that sounds fine with me.

  264. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 5:58 pm

    the twins do not rush pitchers to the majors.

    I’ve proven conclusively that they do.

  265. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 6:00 pm

    Of the 2010 Rotation, Baker, Slowey, and Liriano were all rushed. Pavano is a free agent, and Blackburn (who was terrible) was a 29th round pick who had to repeat levels.

  266. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 6:02 pm

    i’m fine with the fifth starter on the yankees being a young guy and pitching to a 5.5 era to get started in the major leagues.

    if he can then lower that over the next few years to a 4-4.50 era then you have a pitcher.

    The problem with this theory is that the Twins 3-4-5 starters are all like this. Pitching to 5.5 ERA and slowly trying to be good pitchers and never being more than average. You can’t win in the AL east with that.

  267. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 6:03 pm

    At no time did Garza pitch well for the Twins, so ANY call up was rushed. a 1.5WHIP is not good. He didn’t pitch well until he was moved to the Rays.

  268. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 6:06 pm

    Maybe we should emulate the Rays, oh crap they rushed Price and Niemann panic!!

  269. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 6:07 pm

    “I wonder who of Liriano, Baker, Duensing or Slowey would be in the Twins rotation if they had the Yankees budget to work with?”

    pat-

    maybe the yankee budget is a double edged sword in the sense it allows them to sign a guy like aj burnett and then be stuck with a guy like aj burnett.

    blackburn was having aj like numbers last year half way through but because he doesn’t make much the twins replaced him with duesning from their organization.

    i’m trying to wrap my mind about how the yankees have gotten themselves into this pitching situation they are in.

    the twins approach doesn’t seem to get them to this same place the yankees are in and the twins get the same era without spending the big salaries.

    the yankees are in a real mess right now. there has to be a better way to do it, and that’s what i’m looking at.

    i think anyone who looks at the twins starter’s minor and mlb stats will see a different approach and an approach that did produce a lower team era last year and probably will again this year.

  270. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 6:07 pm

    They do not get extra credit for letting players flounder in the majors until they figure it out. You (and everyone else) would KILL the yankees for doing the same thing.

    You develop pitchers in the minors. Not by flopping them back and forth before they are ready.

  271. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 6:09 pm

    randy – The twins team ERA was 0.09 lower than the yankees. That is essentially meaningless, and they play in a pitchers park. it should be much lower if they had the same quality of pitching.

  272. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 6:13 pm

    Yankees pitching was better than the Twins the last 2 years by ERA+, significantly better in 2009. it was even better in 2008.

  273. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 6:14 pm

    “Of the 2010 Rotation, Baker, Slowey, and Liriano were all rushed. Pavano is a free agent, and Blackburn (who was terrible) was a 29th round pick who had to repeat levels.”

    jerkface-

    there’s not much else to say to you.

    anyone who looks at baker , slowey, and liriano can tell they paid their dues in the minors.

    baker , slowey, and duensing were the 3,4,5 guys for the twins last year and all were below 4.55 eras.

    you’re just being obtuse and wasting people’s time with your silly arguments.

  274. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 6:17 pm

    Ah I see we’ve reached the ‘Ignores the mountains of evidence presented against him’ phase of Randy’s argument strategy.

  275. Pat M. December 30th, 2010 at 6:17 pm

    Tin Cup ( The Original Randy I ) How windy is it where you are ???? You’re getting wet my friend from the yellow rain…….Hey Folks, The Twins are and have been considered the best run organization in the game from the ground floor all the way to the top…….Jerkface are you ever wrong or just to stubborn to admit so……

  276. RayVT December 30th, 2010 at 6:17 pm

    Actually a staff of the following isn’t that bad.

    SP1 Pettite
    SP2 Wang (healthy w/ no baserunning)
    SP3 Hughes
    SP4 Lilly
    SP5 Kennedy/Joba

    CL Mo

  277. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 6:18 pm

    Is developing league average pitching the goal now? Yes, the Twins are excellent at producing mediocre pitching. We finally got to it.

  278. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 6:18 pm

    Liriano

    80 IP – 18
    3 IP – 19
    156 IP – 20
    160 IP – 21 Pitches in the MAJORS!!!

    Scott Baker – Drafted 2003, spent 1 full season 04 in the minors, called up to the majors 05
    Kevin Slowey – Drafted 2005, spent 1 full season 06 in the minors, called up to the majors 07

  279. Pat M. December 30th, 2010 at 6:19 pm

    Lilly is by way of The LA Dodgers I do believe…….Last Cy Yong winner from the Yanks Organization ??? Guidry, Ford and Sparky Lyle doesn’t count…..Nor does Roger….Twins, many

  280. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 6:19 pm

    The fact of the matter is that if your development path results in you being a league average pitcher, that is deemed a success in Minnesota and a failure in New York.

  281. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 6:19 pm

    “I’m sick and tired of all this talk on a Yankees blog about how much better other teams are on different fazes of team development, yet you can’t name me 1 team more successful at winning than the Yankees.”

    big al-

    you might want to take a look at the twins starting pitching for 2010. look at the minor league stats and how much time they spent there. it’s a very different approach than the yankees. make up your own mind.

    http://www.baseball-reference......2010.shtml

  282. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 6:20 pm

    Hey Folks, The Twins are and have been considered the best run organization in the game from the ground floor all the way to the top

    Praising the twins does not mean the actual truth of their developmental career arcs matches what Randy is saying. All you have to do is look at the evidence. The fact that some posters here cling to their incorrect arguments in the face of evidence to the contrary is driving the discussion here.

  283. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 6:22 pm

    Twins, many

    You mean Johan Santana? The guy they developed in the majors after the rule 5?

    Who was the last Twin to win it before that, Frank Viola? Great.

  284. G. Love December 30th, 2010 at 6:22 pm

    What the Twins do better than most teams in baseball is teach fundamentals to their players in the system so they come up to the majors with the ability to execute. Their players can bunt, move a runner over, know how to hit and run and their pitchers know they have to throw strikes.

    That said, those fundamentals may win games for them but it does not make average talent into all stars. It just makes them productive pieces of a unit that plays well.

    If the Yankees stressed that kind of approach in the minors where players knew how to bunt, move runners, situationally hit, etc. it would be a great thing, but in order to do that you have to tell players with potent developing bats to ignore their natural gifts when you want them to learn how to exploit them.

    That said, comparing the Yankees pitcher development to the Twins makes no sense. The Twins sign no one of any regard or talent to pitch for them.

    They happily would go out with a rotation of Karstens, Rasner, Olendorf if those guys executed their game plans.

    The reason we kill them in the playoffs every year is they have a bunch of average starters with good fundamentals who can’t get through a lineup like ours unless we beat ourselves. With the exception of Liriano they are quad A rotation.

    The Twins beat up on lesser competition by executing and playing well and getting big hits from their small group of cornerstone guys when they are healthy.

    You put the Twins in the AL East and they would struggle to be an 80 win team.

  285. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 6:22 pm

    Do you people even look at the historical record of baseball before shooting off your mouth about stuff?

  286. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 6:26 pm

    “Liriano

    80 IP – 18
    3 IP – 19
    156 IP – 20
    160 IP – 21 Pitches in the MAJORS!!!

    Scott Baker – Drafted 2003, spent 1 full season 04 in the minors, called up to the majors 05
    Kevin Slowey – Drafted 2005, spent 1 full season 06 in the minors, called up to the majors 07″

    jerkface-

    you’re losing your mind.

    liriano- 446 minor league innings

    baker-494 minor league innings

    slowey- 367 minor league innings

  287. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 6:28 pm

    So you think jerking players between the majors and minors contributes to their development?

  288. Red Lobster December 30th, 2010 at 6:28 pm

    Randy was in the room when Garza was sent to AAA?

    Fascinating.

  289. Joe from Long Island December 30th, 2010 at 6:29 pm

    I’ve just gotten home. I’ve been following this argument between randy and the world since mid-afternoon, checking in between patients. And, it’s still going strong……

    I think you guys should just arrange a meeting at a bar somewhere, have a few, and hash it out face to face, and someone can video it for YouTube.

    Maybe GB can buy a few rounds to keep things going.

  290. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 6:36 pm

    Randy is against Joba throwing 30 pitches in a bullpen but is all for Liriano jumping from 3 innings to 156, hilarious and its not ‘rushing’

  291. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 6:40 pm

    By the twins standards, we should expect Betances, Banuelos, Phelps, Mitchell, Brackman, and Noesi all in the majors this year.

  292. Pat M. December 30th, 2010 at 6:41 pm

    Doctor Joe….It might be time to dispense some meds here !!!!

  293. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 6:44 pm

    “I’ve just gotten home. I’ve been following this argument between randy and the world since mid-afternoon, checking in between patients. And, it’s still going strong……”

    joe from long island-

    every now and then the blog needs to be taken on when too few people are dominating the discussion.

    the blog quality used to be better.

    we’re missing some good people

    cb, sj44, nick in sf, m, etc

  294. Joe from Long Island December 30th, 2010 at 6:45 pm

    G.Love – Bingo!

    The Twins system is a product of their circumstances. They have to function the way that they do in order to be competitive. In their division, they can go that and win, as they’ve shown many times. No question about it, they do what they do well.

    randy makes some interesting points, but it appears to this observer that at times he may carry it to extremes.

    jerkface (I still think that’s a ridiculous handle), and others have made a case that, for the Yankees, the Twins’ model won’t cut it, because of a combination of factors – expectations to win every year, means to go high risk, high reward with players, etc.

    Of course, both sides make good points. randy’s right, that given the Yanks’ resources, they should do better in MiL instruction. Is it solely Cashman’s (randy’s favorite whipping boy) fault? I don’t think so, it seems that this is the product of many people. I get the impression things are improving on the MiL level (Dave Miley, Butch Wynegar, Scott Aldred, Torre Tyson), but you can always argue to do better. Cash only got his current power in, what, 2005, so his results are due in now, and the B’s and others (Phelps, Warren) may be the result of this.

    As a fan, my bottom line is winning. While doing it with homegrown products may be philosophically more pure, I don’t know how much that matters in the grand scheme. I really didn’t care last year that CC, Alex, Tex, Swish weren’t homegrown. They’re hometown players now, and that’s all that I care about.

    I don’t think Theo is caring too much right now that Gonzalez, Crawford, Jenks, Drew, Scutaro, Cameron, Saltalamachia, Beckett, Lackey, DiceK, aren’t homegrown. I think he’s just concerned with how many wins they can produce.

  295. SAS December 30th, 2010 at 6:47 pm

    Randy,

    What I said that you didn’t read is that the Yankee farm system should have the best instructional coaches in baseball so that more pitchers can come up and stick.

  296. SAS December 30th, 2010 at 6:49 pm

    It snowed a bit in Phoenix area, Pat M. It is very windy and obviously cold. The snow looked like bits of styrofoam.

  297. nyy4life4 December 30th, 2010 at 6:50 pm

    Sure, Soriano would cost a draft pick, but it’s important to remember that the Yankees picked up a draft pick from Vazquez leaving, and that pick will just be a few picks after the Yankees regular 1st round draft pick.

    Also, I think this would allow them to move Joba back to the Rotation, which I feel with the lack of pitching depth, needs to happen.

    There really is no downside to it anymore, Joba was below average at best last season in the pen, and the Yankees need Starting Pitching.

    Joba is no longer the player who the Yankees need to be extra careful with. He has proven he is not that good. I think they should just stick Joba in the rotation and see how it goes. If he does well, then we have a good starter pitching 180 + innings as opposed to a good reliever going 70 innings.

  298. Pat M. December 30th, 2010 at 6:52 pm

    What nobody has mentioned is that The Yankees went The Twins developmental route back in the early 90′s and then broke away from it and are now trying desperately to revive that philosophy….In many ways The Bronx Bombers are victims of their own success….

  299. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 6:53 pm

    “Randy was in the room when Garza was sent to AAA?

    Fascinating.”

    no. i was in there in a 2007 spring game at pawtuckett when he was taken out after 75 pitches and he was ticked off.

    the weather had been bad in the northeast and his pitch count was still low.

    that week hughes was called up in the emergency start with the yankees.

    that was how i knew hughes probably hadn’t built up his arm strength either because all teams had been affected with rainouts.

    pitchers in the northeast were behind because of the unusually bad weather, snow etc..

  300. Pat M. December 30th, 2010 at 6:53 pm

    SAS, that the storm that zipped thru here yeaterday….That last storm that dumped 7 inches of rain in 5 days is what leveled NYC Sunday & Monday…..

  301. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 6:55 pm

    “What I said that you didn’t read is that the Yankee farm system should have the best instructional coaches in baseball so that more pitchers can come up and stick.”

    sas -

    sorry. i’ve been a little busy taking on the jerkfaces :)

  302. Joe from Long Island December 30th, 2010 at 6:57 pm

    Pat M., SAS – man, you guys are getting killed with the weather. I just saw the clips on the news. Stay safe, guys.

  303. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2010 at 6:57 pm

    SAS, on your statement that the yankees system should have the best instructional coaches available is something that randy, Pat M. and I have talked about for more than two years. they have $100 million worth of minor league talent, but have scrimped on the nu,ber and quality of coaching in the system. It shows when the kids come up, from base running and bunting to the type of pitches taught to the lack of pitchers helping the catchers control the running game. Defense is the other real issue, especially catching and infield defense.

  304. P December 30th, 2010 at 7:07 pm

    Somebody please teach brett gardner how to freaking bunt for crying out loud. How does a guy like that not excel at bunting?

    When you’re designed for speed like he is, it’s a sin that he sucks at bunting. I don’t think he had a bad year offensively, in fact I think he would be better hitting 1 or 2 and if he’s healthy and can remain healthy, as long as he learns how to bunt he might be very productive.

    still prefer Jeter/Damon for 1 and 2 (2 years ago).. girardi better stop massaging ego’s and not be afraid of moving around his batting order this year.

  305. Yankeeclipper December 30th, 2010 at 7:14 pm

    Why would we take a flyer on colon? He makes no sense. I like the Prior and Cotts signings. They may help.

    I am fine if we sign Francis? I just don’t get Colon.

  306. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 7:15 pm

    Colon quit on baseball and is a fat disaster, would not take a flyer on him.

  307. SAS December 30th, 2010 at 7:16 pm

    GB.

    Yes, what I want is the Yankee organization to have the best instruction available at all levels. It is a cheap way to make our prospects better when they are ready for the majors.

    Frankly, I don’t get the laissez-faire attitude of the organization at these levels.

  308. tyanksfan36 December 30th, 2010 at 7:16 pm

    I’m going to NY next summer for a week in june. What’s the best place to stay, like area wise? Or place that’s kinda out of the way and cheap? Were going to one game of the Rangers series in mid june.

  309. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 7:18 pm

    joe from long island-

    you need to simply take some time and look at the twinges starting pitchers stats and how they got there in the major leagues:

    http://www.baseball-reference......2010.shtml

    just click on minor league stats.

    it is very easy to see after 10-15 minutes of looking that the twins are doing things very differently
    than the yankees.

    according to my quickie calculation :

    last five years twins average starter era – 4.43
    last five years yankees average starter era- 4.50

    the salaries for the twins are probably half what the yankees spent.

    my conclusion is the twins do a better job than the yankees doing in developing pitchers.

    you can make up your own mind.

  310. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2010 at 7:22 pm

    Some players drafted by, but, not signed by the Yankees over the last few years and later drafted by other teams…Casey Blake, Daniel Bard, Aaron Heilman, Brian Tallet, Chris Davis, Drew Storen, Doug Fister, and Jason Grilli. Years ago, john Elway and Fred Lynn were drafted but not signed.

    This came from another site, YESnetwork.com, I think.

  311. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2010 at 7:26 pm

    SAS December 30th, 2010 at 7:16 pm
    GB.

    Yes, what I want is the Yankee organization to have the best instruction available at all levels. It is a cheap way to make our prospects better when they are ready for the majors.

    Frankly, I don’t get the laissez-faire attitude of the organization at these levels.

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    Absolutely, SAS. Some teams like Charleston have a hitting coach that doubles as the 1st base coach and a pitching coach, but, no bullpen coach….no infield or outfield coach and obly one organizational catching instructor, though Butch Wynegar goes coach (hitting and third base). Some of the teams use the players not in the game as base coaches.

  312. KPB December 30th, 2010 at 7:30 pm

    tyanksfan36

    I heard back from Chad today and said that they don’t get involved with things like that. Is there another way you’d be comfortable getting the card?

  313. lounge lizard December 30th, 2010 at 7:33 pm

    You’ve probably forgotten more than I know, but John Elway did sign. He played two summers of minor league ball for the Yankees and he didn’t do it on a handshake.

  314. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 7:36 pm

    “The reason we kill them in the playoffs every year is they have a bunch of average starters with good fundamentals who can’t get through a lineup like ours unless we beat ourselves. With the exception of Liriano they are quad A rotation.”

    it has nothing to do with signing free agents like sabathia and teixeira?

    funny, i thought sabathia was a big help.

  315. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2010 at 7:40 pm

    yes, my error. Elway did sign with NYYs.

  316. Pat M. December 30th, 2010 at 7:41 pm

    GB…Just think if the Yankee Front Office would budget let’s say an additional 2 million dollars what that dough would buy them in the form of organizational coaching throughout the system…….I know we’ve discussed this over the years but it just blows my mind that an enterprise that has been valued at 1.6 Billion Dollars is so penny foolish when it comes to the structural foundation of the Franchise……Maybe Jerkface can weigh in with some insight….

  317. tyanksfan36 December 30th, 2010 at 7:41 pm

    KPB

    Ask Chad to give me your email address. My dad works at the post office, he says if you send it to his post office to his name then he will get it there.

  318. SAS December 30th, 2010 at 7:41 pm

    KPB,

    How are you doing tonight?

  319. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 7:42 pm

    I am for having lots and lots of good coaches.

  320. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 7:46 pm

    If I were the Yankees I’d spend twice as much on the draft and IFA and on the coaching system than they do now.

  321. Joe from Long Island December 30th, 2010 at 7:46 pm

    randy – After your posts, I did look up the Twins’ pitchers’ stats on baseball-reference.com.

    However, I wasn’t able to find the “twinges” pitchers.

    Overrall, I’m a big believer in education/coaching. It’s a great investment. The Scranton team seems to have good coaching available to them, I’ve heard nothing but good things about Miley/Wynegar/Aldred. I know of Torre Tyson. But, not much more than those men. Like you, I really hope the Yanks up the resources devoted to the minor leagues. It really seems the cost effective way of doing things.

    It seems like they’ve invested in scouting, with Billy Eppler being highly regarded in the business. I’d like them to do the same with MiL coaching.

  322. BIG AL December 30th, 2010 at 7:52 pm

    randy l. -

    I’ve met and talked with Nardi Contreras in SWB on more than one occasion, and I do not like him, nor his way of dealing with pitchers. He is the main reason pitchers are not prepared to make the next step into MLB from MiLB.

    The Yankees had a good crop of young pitchers coming along at the same time as Phil, Joba and Ian Kennedy, but, they got hurt, and never came back to the point they were at before injury.

    You can’t improve on the development of pitchers, until you change those in charge of that development, and as long as Cashman is the GM, Nardi has that job.

    The top prospects need to be throwing 150-165 innings in AAA, before they come up. This is what you saw with Nova last year, he was past his limit for the season, and could not go deep into games.

    Also, in AAA, as soon as the starter goes 5 innings, they’re looking to take them out, or if they run into trouble, they bring in a RP, rather than letting the SP to pitch through it, and learn how to deal with adversity. This is all on Nardi, and how he believes things should be.

  323. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 7:55 pm

    KPB-
    I sent you what you requested.

  324. KPB December 30th, 2010 at 7:56 pm

    SAS

    Doing good. How have you been? Has your weather straightened up yet?

  325. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 7:58 pm

    “However, I wasn’t able to find the “twinges” pitchers.”

    joe on long island-

    the spell check on my mac is having a mind of it’s own :)

  326. KPB December 30th, 2010 at 7:59 pm

    tyanksfan36

    I’ll ask him and let you know when I hear from him.

  327. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 8:00 pm

    “I’ve met and talked with Nardi Contreras in SWB on more than one occasion, and I do not like him, nor his way of dealing with pitchers. He is the main reason pitchers are not prepared to make the next step into MLB from MiLB.”

    interesting obsevation.
    i’ve never met him.
    something to look at.

  328. KPB December 30th, 2010 at 8:01 pm

    MTU

    I received it today, thanks. I’m going to get some frames tomorrow and hang them up.

  329. BIG AL December 30th, 2010 at 8:01 pm

    MTU -

    Good evening. Got 2 great books for Christmas, The Last Boy, Mickey Mantle, and The Life and Death of a Yankee Captain Munson. My son knows how to please his dad.

  330. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 8:02 pm

    randyl – their total innings pitched in the minors means absolutely nothing.

    I still don’t see how calling up players too early and shuffling them between the minors/majors is “good development”.

    By that notion Kei Igawa is the most fundamentally developed pitcher in the Yankee system. This makes NO sense.

    Good player development would be turning pitchers who were not projected to be top end starters into just that. They have not done that once int he history of their franchise.

    The league average pitchers you keep pointing to… Slowey, Baker, Deunsing, would still be toiling away in AAA ont he Yankees. They did not get called up to the twins ML staff because they were “ready” or “developed”. They got called up becuse they were necessary. Then they were not good and got sent down again.

    IP != quality.

  331. SAS December 30th, 2010 at 8:03 pm

    JPB,

    It is freezing in AZ and windy…brrr. I wore a heavy winter jacket and gloves today. I think it is colder with dry air than with air with more humidity. It rained yesterday. However, it will improve to where I love it.

  332. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 8:03 pm

    “If I were the Yankees I’d spend twice as much on the draft and IFA and on the coaching system than they do now.”

    i’d second that.

    why don’t the yankees do that with the money they have ?

    it really makes no sense.

  333. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 8:04 pm

    KPB-

    Excellent.

    Al-

    I would say so.

  334. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 8:05 pm

    Spending more money on coaching, draft and IFA are actually one of the key proponents against a salary cap being the end-all-be-all solution to competition in baseball. If you take $80millon off the top of the Yankee payroll, and they invest it in those key areas of development… it won’t help anyone compete with the Yankees in the long run.

  335. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2010 at 8:06 pm

    Contreres and Billy Conners needs to be kept as far away from pitchers as possible. Conners was around because mainly, he was GMS’s organizational spy and snitch.

  336. G. Love December 30th, 2010 at 8:06 pm

    randy,

    I’m actually agreeing with you in some respects.

    I said the Twins sign no one of any importance and would rather have functional pitchers who may not be highly talented but can execute a gameplan the way the Twins want it executed.

    The Yankees are always going for top shelf talent. They never seem to be content with just putting middling average talent in the rotation.

    That said, the Twins pitchers get eaten alive in post season. They can navigate a full season facing mostly AL Central teams like Cleveland and KC, but put them in the AL East and all that well taught talent will struggle to get 80 wins in my opinion.

    The Twins play excellent baseball, but they do not possess the kind of talent in their pitching staff to shut teams down in the post season. It’s why when we face them we hit better than we do against other post season teams. The Twins pitchers are functional and can hold average hitters down.

    It’s a myth that the Twins are constantly developing Aces in the rotation.

    That said, Pat M. is on the money when he wrote that the shift in the early 90′s that built the Yankee dynasty was similar to the current Twins model in a sense. The players that came up from the minors at that time all understood their roles and how to help the team in little ways. They all weren’t superstars.

  337. tyanksfan36 December 30th, 2010 at 8:07 pm

    KPB

    That’s sounds good to me. Chad is usually quick with emain stuff, I emailed to get JCPD’s email to see his pictures and got it the next day.

  338. MTU December 30th, 2010 at 8:07 pm

    SAS-

    We got nailed again too. This time a blanket of snow.

    I read today where Britain is having it’s coldest Winter since the 1600′s. If they have a few more bad months they said it could be the coldest Winter they have had in 1000 yrs.

  339. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 8:09 pm

    “Slowey, Baker, Deunsing, would still be toiling away in AAA ont he Yankees. They did not get called up to the twins ML staff because they were “ready” or “developed”. They got called up becuse they were necessary. Then they were not good and got sent down again.”

    you’re delusional. these guys are better than what the yanks have at 3.4.5

    if we had these three guys at the 3,4,5 spots the yankees, and didn’t have burnett, the yankees would be in much better shape.

    if you can figure a way to get rid of burnett’s contract let me know.

    if he has another year like last year, cashman has to send him to the bullpen despite his salary.

  340. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 8:10 pm

    randy – you are obsessed with comparing them to the yankees current situation. this is completely irrelevant to how the twins “developed” those pitchers by throwing them to the wolves, then retracting. don’t change the subject.

  341. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 8:11 pm

    randy – I’m also not writing off Burnett because of one bad season. That only shows a lack of baseball knowledge and wherewithal.

  342. BIG AL December 30th, 2010 at 8:11 pm

    GB7 -

    We are in full agreement.

  343. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2010 at 8:12 pm

    Pat M. December 30th, 2010 at 7:41 pm
    GB…Just think if the Yankee Front Office would budget let’s say an additional 2 million dollars what that dough would buy them in the form of organizational coaching throughout the system…….I know we’ve discussed this over the years but it just blows my mind that an enterprise that has been valued at 1.6 Billion Dollars is so penny foolish when it comes to the structural foundation of the Franchise……Maybe Jerkface can weigh in with some insight….

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    Pat, what kind of coaches would you want? The numbers type of coaches or the crusty old grizzled “guts” type of coaches? My preference is for the Ralph Houk/Casey Stengel type of instructors.

  344. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 8:13 pm

    “The Yankees are always going for top shelf talent. They never seem to be content with just putting middling average talent in the rotation.”

    g. love

    then the yankees are failing miserably because their starting era for the past 5 years is 4.50 and the twins is 4.43

    i realize there are park factors, but with the money the yankees spend it’s embarrassing to have worse starting pitching era than the twins over a five year period.

  345. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 8:14 pm

    Slowey has 1 season where he was above average. Duensing has never been a full time starter in the majors. Baker and Slowey have been in the majors since 2005 and Slowey since 2007.

  346. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 8:14 pm

    its a very simple question… did the twins constantly call up all 3 of those players before they were ready and then send them back to the minors? (the answer is very obviously yes, and has already been referenced today)

    is calling up players before they are ready then sending them back to the minors, adding to their MiL IP total… actually developing players, or is it throwing things at a wall hoping something sticks?

  347. KPB December 30th, 2010 at 8:17 pm

    SAS

    Stay warm. At least your having winter temps., right now we’re sitting at about 66 degrees.

  348. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 8:17 pm

    how is a 4.5 ERA is so drastically worse than 4.43? is there some higher form of mathematics i do not understand that makes 0.07 a significant number?

    the only reason the yankees are stuck with a short rotation this season was vazquez completely busting. all hands were on deck for Lee, and if that fell through vazquez could have been easily resigned (i think they should have anyway) and no one would be talking about the rotation right now.

  349. BIG AL December 30th, 2010 at 8:18 pm

    randy l. -

    A lot has been said about the handling, or mishandling, of Joba and other Yankees pitchers, but, you must take into account the method the Twins are using is due to the fact they lack the financial resources of the NYY.

    The way they handled Liriano almost ended his career, and although he’s back pitching, he’s never been close to what he was before they burnt his arm out.

    If you want the Yankees to set up a program that burns out pitchers arms, just put Joe Torre in charge of our program.

  350. SAS December 30th, 2010 at 8:22 pm

    GB,

    I want the kind of coaches that teach with the ‘tough love’ type approach. Many of these young guys have been the “be all and end all” in their schools and communities. They could do no wrong. They need people who are excellent teachers who want to see excellence in return, but at the same time the coaches care for the kids.

  351. tyanksfan36 December 30th, 2010 at 8:25 pm

    I wish it wouldve snowed in florida tuesday and wednesday morning. It was 20 degrees when I went to work at 6am. I had to scrape ice off my windows. I finally got smart enough to cover them.

  352. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 8:25 pm

    “The way they handled Liriano almost ended his career, and although he’s back pitching, he’s never been close to what he was before they burnt his arm out.”

    big al-

    i’m not sure that’s true. i ‘ll have to look into it to get an opinion.

  353. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 8:28 pm

    “how is a 4.5 ERA is so drastically worse than 4.43? is there some higher form of mathematics i do not understand that makes 0.07 a significant number?”

    anyone who’s not a pea brain can figure that since the twins have essentially the same ERA for half what the yankees pay that the twins are doing a better job.

  354. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 8:32 pm

    “is calling up players before they are ready then sending them back to the minors, adding to their MiL IP total… actually developing players, or is it throwing things at a wall hoping something sticks?”

    maybe they want them to get a taste of what the big leagues are al about and then go back and work on their craft.

    up and down makes sense to me.

    i wish they would have done it with joba.

    sending lee and halladay up , down. and back up seemed to work for them .

    i don’t see the problem of guys going up and down until they get it.

  355. pat December 30th, 2010 at 8:32 pm

    “I think you guys should just arrange a meeting at a bar somewhere, have a few, and hash it out face to face, and someone can video it for YouTube. ”

    May I suggest Foley’s in NYC on January 26th. Brian Cashman will be guest bartending that day and I’m sure he would love to hear all of your input!

  356. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 8:33 pm

    randy – shifty shifty. you won’t stand by a single refuted point. done with your nonsense.

    “i’ll have to look into it to get an opinion”… rofl…

  357. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 8:40 pm

    anyone who’s not a pea brain can figure that since the twins have essentially the same ERA for half what the yankees pay that the twins are doing a better job.

    Anybody who’s not a pea brain would understand that they pitch half their games in the weaker division in a pitchers park. This tends to lower things like… ERA’s…

    The yankees do develop premier talent and trade it for pieces that fit their organizations needs. Only the cream of the crop gets to sniff the major league rotation. The kevin sloweys and scott bakers of the world are a dime a dozen, and are not helping that organization win world series’… which is the whole point.

  358. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2010 at 8:42 pm

    SAS December 30th, 2010 at 8:22 pm
    GB,

    I want the kind of coaches that teach with the ‘tough love’ type approach. Many of these young guys have been the “be all and end all” in their schools and communities. They could do no wrong. They need people who are excellent teachers who want to see excellence in return, but at the same time the coaches care for the kids.

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    SAS, I don’t mind managers who keep travck of things on computers, but, there are those, and girardi is one that won’t make a move if the computer says not to. Some games call for just a “gut feeling” on the game. That’s the gut feeling, crusty old guy type I need to see more of. They have the feel for the game….the computers don’t.

    Years ago, Hank Bauer hit 2 homers, a single and a double in the game, due to be batting against a left hander in the 8th inning of the gamr. Left handed pitcher in, Stengel sends up the lefty hitting Gene Woodling in to bat for bauer is screaming at stengel. Woodling hits a grand slam. After the game, Stengel was asked about the odd switch. His answer was that although Bauer hit that pitcher well and Woodling didn’t, he thought Bauer had used up his share of hits and Woodling was made about not playing to start with, so, he’d probably still be so mad that he’d get a hit.

    Another time right handed hitting Andy Carey was hitting with runners on, figuring that he’s going to be bunting the runners up or told by Stengel to “butcher boy” it, or at the least, be pinch hit for, Stengel’s advice to Carey, “Get your ass up there and hit the first pitch into the right field seats.” Carey was a lot of things, but, home run hitter wasn’t one of them. Carey hit the first pitch into the right field seats. When asked about it after the game, Carey said, “When the Old Man tells us to do something, we do it.”

  359. BIG AL December 30th, 2010 at 8:42 pm

    randy l. -

    I fully agree the Yankees should have sent Joba back down.

    Roy Halliday thought his career might be over when he was sent down, but, he, like Lee, learned how to be better pitchers.

    It’s too late for Joba now, the fans put him on a pedestal, he believed he was greater than he was, and failed to continue his development. I feel Joba’s talent has been wasted, he could have become a major factor on this team, now he’s become irrelevent.

  360. BIG AL December 30th, 2010 at 8:43 pm

    Got to go, catch you later.

  361. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 8:45 pm

    Joba is 24, he has plenty of time (3 years) to “get it” before he hits his physical prime… or 7 years if you believe in the cliff lee school of getting better for no reason when you are older. :)

  362. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 8:52 pm

    ” Only the cream of the crop gets to sniff the major league rotation.”

    then how is the yankee starting era 4.50 for the past five years.

    speaking of sniffing that kind of stinks when you factor in the salaries.

  363. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 8:56 pm

    randy – the yankees have not had a team ERA over 4.49 in the last 5 years, so where did you come up with that number?

    oh, you made it up like everything else.

  364. Doreen December 30th, 2010 at 8:58 pm

    It’s not too late for Joba.

    I have to be honest – I can’t take this debate anymore.

    I don’t see how people who do not have access to the Yankees financials have any basis for stating they don’t spend enough on coaching, etc. I would imagine that like in all other aspects of their organization, they end up paying more for the same services as other teams pay.

    Maybe they do and maybe they don’t, and if they don’t, of course they should.

    That’s the only part of the debate that I can agree with. The Yankees should be the class of all organizations in all facets of an organization because they have the money to be able to be so.

    But the objectives of different teams in different divisions with different financials and different goals? All day long, round and round and round. And the only thing agreed upon is the Yankees should (if they don’t already) spend more money on coaching, etc.

    The Twins are a very fundamentally sound baseball team, and they get to the playoffs and die. And their fan base seems to be fairly content with this arrangement. It will not fly in the post-dynasty New York fan base.

    Pat M said it best – The Yankees are a victim of their own success. And of their own excess.

    I say we give the Yankees this round of prospects to put up or shut up. Fair is fair. Hughes, Joba and Kennedy were the first batch of cookies, and everyone knows that the first batch isn’t perfect.

  365. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2010 at 9:02 pm

    Players and other people that have left us this year. Some of the names will bring a smile and a tear to the old time baseball card collectors. A good read.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....8;c_id=mlb

  366. West Coast Yankee Fan December 30th, 2010 at 9:02 pm

    Once upon a time there were these two roosters…

  367. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 9:04 pm

    ID, you can use fangraphs to sort Starter and Reliever ERA. But the Yankees have had a better ERA the past 2 seasons. :(

  368. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 9:11 pm

    yeah i see he said starters. since most of the pitchers developed in the yankee system come up as relievers, i think team era is more relevant (assuming of course the absurdity that ERA is relevant).

  369. SAS December 30th, 2010 at 9:16 pm

    All I know right now is that it is 62 degrees in this house. Our a/c-heat went down I guess. We had already decided to replace it this year to get Government rebates. The guy is coming in the morning. I may be an ice cube by then.

  370. P December 30th, 2010 at 9:21 pm


    Randy l.

    i’m trying to wrap my mind about how the yankees have gotten themselves into this pitching situation they are in.
    —-

    Now that really is the question! It didn’t happen overnight and it’s not just cashmans fault it the entire front office’s fault. You mean to tell mexthey didn’t see this coming? Our rotation had been a disaster for many years.. Well maybe “disaster” is exaggerating but we’ve been aware of our SP needs for many years now and it seems like we still can’t get it done! We got CC a real ace.. but what have we been doing??? You have to take risks and missing lee we had no choice, but passing on greinke was bad, we didn’t even try to get him without Montero..

    I guess what I’m saying is that we’ve had this problem for awhile and we have the most $$ in baseball.. Yet we can’t get it together.. Chapman was a $$ risk and we blew that .. We are not in a position to be so picky, yet we are being picky .. Do now we may have to overpay for a risky soriano ..

    This FO needs to get it together.. Totally dropped the ball and enough is enough already!

    MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN!

    I believe The Boss would never have let this happen.

  371. tyanksfan36 December 30th, 2010 at 9:22 pm

    They have a replica Mariano Rivera jersey on mlb for a total price of 72. I’m having real trouble trying not to buy it right now.

  372. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 9:24 pm

    p – i thought you were so confident that there was something “in the works”…

  373. P December 30th, 2010 at 9:28 pm

    Joba is going backwards, hrs not the dame pitcher! It doesn’t matter why, bottom line is he is what he is now and he needs to put in work to be a successful RP and he’s barely cutting it.. No way he had it in him to do what it takes to earn a SP role.. That ship has sailed.. We need to look ahead and not back.. Problem is the market FA/TRADE is dry and what aggravates me is that we didn’t see it coming so busy on lee lee lee!

  374. P December 30th, 2010 at 9:31 pm

    ID, my dad tells me everyday that Cashman is working on “magic” .. What that means, your guess would be as good as mine. That doesn’t mean that whatever it is will even happen..

  375. Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 9:38 pm

    Isn’t it more likely that Cashman foresaw how crappy the FA market and trade market was and decided to try for Lee? In fact I think thats exactly what happened.

    The team’s needs did not align with the free agent market at all.

  376. G. Love December 30th, 2010 at 9:39 pm

    Doreen,

    Great post. Well said.

    As for the debate in here today, it’s not fair to compare the Yankees ERA to the Twins when the Twins play borderline expansion teams within their division 19 times a season. Park factors is only one part of the difference. Competition has something to do with it as well.

    The guys in the Twins rotation would only get in our rotation now. They wouldn’t have made it in last season when we had CC, AJ, Andy, Javy and Hughes as our starting 5.

    The fact that AJ and Javy were worthless isn’t the Yankees fault in my opinion. Those are veteran guys and they should be better than they were.

    As for the Joba debate, I default to what I’ve said from the get go. His problem is between his ears. It will be between his ears. Joba is what is standing in the way of his own success. If he really wants to be a Yankee and be a huge success he has a funny way of showing it. I think he’s just content to make 7 figures as long as MLB will let him and then he’ll retire and open a bar and laundromat and somehow go bankrupt by his 40′s.

    He got a taste of the good life and quit on his progression. Just getting that taste seemed to have sated him enough to stop caring.

  377. NYY fan in NH December 30th, 2010 at 9:51 pm

    You can bet your bottom dollar that next year the Yanks will go for Yu Darvish!

  378. Irreverent Discourse December 30th, 2010 at 9:56 pm

    p – i do enjoy a bit of magic :)

  379. G-C December 30th, 2010 at 9:59 pm

    G. Love,

    I think that’s a sweeping statement to make for someone who isn’t intimately involved in the Yankees organization. By all accounts, at least of those within the organization, Chamberlain is one of the hardest workers on the team. It apparently is the only reason why he wasn’t demoted or otherwise tinkered with while he was struggling this past year.

    To deduce that Joba “isn’t a hard worker” simply based on the fact that he doesn’t look quite as cut physically now as he did in 2008 just seems a little ridiculous. I think his problems are largely physical and not mental. Joba’s central problem is that he can’t repeat his delivery. He throws the ball differently nearly every pitch. Unless there’s a mental problem that leads a pitcher to be unable to repeat his mechanics, I don’t think you can say his problems are primarily mental.

    From the start, he’s always been a guy I’d trust with the ball in a big spot. Through it all he’s never quit on the mound or shown an ounce of fear in any situation he’s been put in as both a starter and a reliever.

    I have a really hard time buying that his issues are between the ears.

  380. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2010 at 9:59 pm

    For those that are wringing their hands over the Bartolo Colon interest….only Colon is saying that the Yankees are showing interest. That’s about as useful as Heyman saying it (either one of them).

  381. Joe from Long Island December 30th, 2010 at 10:02 pm

    I’d like to add just one thing to this “The Twins are so fundamentally sound” discussion.

    In the 2009 playoffs – you know, when the Yanks beat them 3 straight, and Ron Gardenhire looked like he was going to stroke out – the Twins made more than a few really bonehead plays. Especially on the basepaths. They gave away more than a few outs in that series.

  382. Pat M. December 30th, 2010 at 10:22 pm

    Joe from Long Island…..You’re quite right about how the Twins uncharacteristically made key errors that kept them from upsetting the mighty Bronx Bombers….In fact they were the one club that had the Yanks on the ropes, as The Angles also shot themselves in the foot in Games 1 & 2 in the cold at The Stadium…..The Phillies never really put the wood to The Yanks to that degree…..

  383. ray from maine December 30th, 2010 at 10:24 pm

    “For those that are wringing their hands over the Bartolo Colon interest….only Colon is saying that the Yankees are showing interest. That’s about as useful as Heyman saying it (either one of them).”
    —————————————————————————————————————–

    GB, I bet for the right price Kevin Brown could be talked out of retirement. Sorry GB, I couldn’t resist!!!

  384. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2010 at 10:38 pm

    ray from maine December 30th, 2010 at 10:24 pm
    “For those that are wringing their hands over the Bartolo Colon interest….only Colon is saying that the Yankees are showing interest. That’s about as useful as Heyman saying it (either one of them).”
    —————————————————————————————————————–

    GB, I bet for the right price Kevin Brown could be talked out of retirement. Sorry GB, I couldn’t resist!!!

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    What a match-up, huh, Ray? Kevin Brown vs Mike Torrez?

  385. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 10:39 pm

    “randy – the yankees have not had a team ERA over 4.49 in the last 5 years, so where did you come up with that number?

    oh, you made it up like everything else.”

    twins starter era
    2006- 4.50
    2007- 4.33
    2008-4.32
    2009-4.84
    2010-4.17

    twins average ERA for 5 years – 4.43

    yankees starter era
    2006-4.54
    2007-4.57
    2008-4.58
    2009-4.48
    2010- 4.35

    yankees starters ERA for 5 years.- 4.50

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/t...../league/al

  386. randy l. December 30th, 2010 at 10:40 pm

    twins starter average ERA for 5 years – 4.43

  387. Tar December 30th, 2010 at 10:50 pm

    Blake

    Wow. :D

  388. blake December 30th, 2010 at 10:56 pm

    Tar,

    What a ballgame. That was great….though they tried their best to give it away….we’ll take it.

  389. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2010 at 11:02 pm

    North Carolina looked like a bunch of sissies out there tonight. No wonder, with a state named after a woman.

  390. Tar December 30th, 2010 at 11:07 pm

    GB

    Bite me :D

    Blake

    Kind of sums the whole season. I was going all CR9 on those refs. Especially the near side line judge.

  391. Pat M. December 30th, 2010 at 11:07 pm

    Uconn going down to Stanford, streak over at 90

  392. blake December 30th, 2010 at 11:11 pm

    Gb,

    Not how you look as long as you win.

    Tar,

    I was about to go CR9 on butch Davis for the worst clock management I’ve ever seen. Good thing theres instant replay.

  393. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2010 at 11:15 pm

    Evening Tar and blake. I was just feeling mean….back to my normal self.

  394. Tar December 30th, 2010 at 11:17 pm

    blake

    I would like to know who sent the kicking team out there. Yates definitely saved him. I think TJ is going to be a very good NFL QB.

  395. blake December 30th, 2010 at 11:18 pm

    Gb,

    I know. ;). I just purchased “the last boy” a couple days ago. Going to read on it this weekend.

  396. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2010 at 11:19 pm

    it’s a great book, Blake. You’ll like the ending. The Yankees win.

  397. blake December 30th, 2010 at 11:20 pm

    Tar,

    No clue. That was just ridiculous. Yates might get a shot with somebody next year….I hope he does. tennessee’s QB is gonna be pretty good I think….lord knows I hear about him enough.

  398. blake December 30th, 2010 at 11:22 pm

    Gb,

    Can’t beat that.

  399. Against All Odds December 30th, 2010 at 11:28 pm

    # CCBiggs December 30th, 2010 at 1:16 pm

    Yanks should definitely trade for Soria, and then move Joba to the rotation. That improves the pen and gives the Yanks the starter they need. And if Pettitte comes back, a rotation of CC, Hughes, Pettitte, Burnett, and Joba looks pretty good.
    ——————————————-

    I’d like to see it happen but the Yankees won’t do it. They won’t even suggest Joba coming into camp as a starter. I find this weird they don’t trust him in the rotation but yet they want to improve the 8th inning. If he’s not good enough to pitch the 8th why is he on the team

  400. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2010 at 11:28 pm

    An interesting possibilty from MLB-Rumors-R-Us.

    “Of course, Soriano could always sign a one-year deal and try his hand in free agency again in 2011-12, but that is an especially risky strategy for relievers, given the tendency for their year-to-year performances to fluctuate.”

  401. P December 30th, 2010 at 11:31 pm

    I’m watching “the other guys” corny but really funny. The jetted cameo is ridiculous! He gets shot..

    Anyone see it?

  402. Against All Odds December 30th, 2010 at 11:35 pm

    # BX33 December 30th, 2010 at 1:48 pm

    The White Sox “flirted with the idea” of trading Gavin Floyd, but decided to keep their rotation together until Jake Peavy returns, according to SI’s Jon Heyman.
    ———————–

    Smart move on their part IMO

  403. LGY December 30th, 2010 at 11:40 pm

    The Twins “model” for developing pitchers shows they have no idea how to internally evaluate and self scout.

    They have no idea where their pitchers belong.

    They send many of them up and down, bullpen to rotation and around and around they go.

    That is not some development program. No team calls pitchers up to the majors when they don’t think they are ready.

    The Twins are clueless as to how to develop pitchers just like every other organization is, because guess what, the big secret is that no organization could possibly know how to develop pitchers when they vary so incredibly much individually.

    Randy is too busy all day confusing the symptom With the.illness. The Twins just draft safe college kids that produce at their projected safe levels once the individual figures it out and overcomes the Twins constantly shifting them around.

    Who you draft and how talented the players in your system are determine by the overwhelming majority how these players end up.

    The Twins are clueless how to develop pitchers just like the Yankees and everyone else. If a team ever actually figured it out they would dominate the league.

    This stuff randy has been peddling all day about the Twins or any other org is just spin and bs. No one knows how to develop pitchers.

  404. Against All Odds December 30th, 2010 at 11:49 pm

    # Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2010 at 2:51 pm

    “as i said, the twins develop pitchers.
    the yankees don’t.”

    The Yanks now have the perfect opportunity, don’t they?
    ——————————

    But are they willing to take advantage of that opportunity

  405. blake December 30th, 2010 at 11:52 pm

    Bud Selig has the secret to developing pitchers locked away in a vault….he just won’t share it and risk competitive imbalance.

  406. ron December 31st, 2010 at 12:00 am

    I wouldn’t touch darvish with a ten ft pole.
    Posting fee will be around 80 million plus a contract.

    Havn’t we learned our lesson with igawa & dice-k ?

    It is very hard to guage how good a pitcher is , in japan.
    Just too big of a risk.
    About the situation with our rotation.
    Cashman should of been trying too get a number 2 pitcher as soon as vaz & burnett imploded more than 6 months ago.

    He knew vaz was not coming back & pettitte might retire.

    I would put joba back in the rotation,have him work with the new pitching coach on getting on top of the ball instead of throwing against his body,also have him & hughes learn too pitch inside more too brush hitters back.

    When have you ever seen hughes even brush back a batter?
    Too polite.

    I remember watching joba beat becket in fenway 1-0 thinking that we have a new ace.
    What happened is a crime.

    You just don’t know if a pitcher can be a good starter unless you give him a certain amount of time.
    Yes he wasn’t pitching great as a starter but now he’s not pitching great out of the pen either so there is nothing too lose at all.

  407. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 12:01 am

    GB7 -

    Listen brother, North Carolina is the Tar Heel State, and was not named after a woman.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar_Heel

  408. P December 31st, 2010 at 12:01 am

    Stupid iPhone .. I meant Jeter gets shot in the movie and he says..”you shot me asshole, I’m dereck Jeter” .. It was game 7 of the world series too.. Who’d ever thought that will Ferrell and mark whalberg make a comedy team.

  409. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 12:02 am

    GB7 -

    For a guy that lives in a state with a womans name, you must be a peach of a man, lol.

  410. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 12:03 am

    P.S. The Tar Heels won!

  411. P December 31st, 2010 at 12:04 am

    Ron, the days of Nolan Ryan pitching are over.. I agree though, people get to comfortable at the plate.. That’s one thing Clemens taught Joba.. “don’t be afraid to send them a message” think Yuke!

  412. Latroy Farnsworth December 31st, 2010 at 12:06 am

    For a good laugh read below:

    Bartolo Colon’s work in the Dominican winter league has continued to draw the attention of major league teams, and the 37-year-old starter sounds eager to sign. According to an AP story out of Santo Domingo, Colon told reporters in the Domincan Republic yesterday, “Texas, Cleveland, and the Yankees are interested in me”

    Could Kevin Brown be far behind?

  413. Red Lobster December 31st, 2010 at 12:12 am

    I’d love to bring Clemens back to the org. in a mentor-type roll… as you mentioned, he certainly helped Joba. He could teach the pitchers all about toughness and intimidation on the mound.

  414. P December 31st, 2010 at 12:14 am

    “Could Kevin Brown be far behind”

    I think Pedro is in front of him but that would answer our 3-4-5

    CC,hughes,Colon,Martinez,Brown

    Now that’s why Cash has been so patient!! :(

  415. pat December 31st, 2010 at 12:14 am

    jnorris427 Wow, Jorge Vazquez, in 36 Mexican League games: 346/.401/1.048, 10 2Bs, 10 HRs, 36 RBIs

  416. Latroy Farnsworth December 31st, 2010 at 12:14 am

    and he can also teach them about steroids and how to lie to congress

  417. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 12:15 am

    Sounds like an add for restaurants on this blog, Ruby Tuesday, Red Lobster, Red Fish ………………………….

  418. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 12:20 am

    Good night folks it’s been fun.

  419. Latroy Farnsworth December 31st, 2010 at 12:20 am

    and i also forgot that Clemens can teach them about infidelity as well.

  420. randy l. December 31st, 2010 at 12:21 am

    “This stuff randy has been peddling all day about the Twins or any other org is just spin and bs. No one knows how to develop pitchers.”

    lgy-

    since the twins starting era over the past five years is less than the yankees starting era and they do this at half the salary expenditure with mostly homegrown pitchers i’d say they do indeed develop pitchers.

    why are you and jerkface so threatened by the fact the twins are doing a much better job than the yankees at developing starters ?

    if there some sabermetric dogma that is threatened by this?

  421. Latroy Farnsworth December 31st, 2010 at 12:22 am

    hahaha that’s a nice rotation right there P. Sign Sidney Ponson as your spot starter and I smell #28 coming next fall.

  422. P December 31st, 2010 at 12:26 am

    Burnett has bullpen written all over him! Well aside from the dollars he’s paid, then again we have the most expensive SP in minor league history.. Maybe igawa can close and we move mo to our #3 and burn out his arm for the remainder of his contract!

  423. LGY December 31st, 2010 at 12:27 am

    Talent is what develops pitchers by and large.

    No matter how much time these guys spend in the minors “learning their craft” the vast majority of them have no idea what they are doing against ML hitters when they first come up.

    Most of the development comes at the major league level. How these pitchers learn from their mistakes at the major league level is what seperates the men from the boys. How they make adjustments at the major league level determines their long term success.

  424. LGY December 31st, 2010 at 12:29 am

    The majors and minors are a completely different ballgame.

    The majors is where the real develoment happens.

    Bottom line, you draft well and scout the Int market well and you will develop well.

    It is about talent and avoiding injury.

  425. P December 31st, 2010 at 12:29 am

    Oh oh I got it !!!

    Swisher can be our #5 and we can shift BG to right and sign Damon !

    We should sign Damon anyway for reals, no way Gardner and swish make it thru the entire season without injury! I’d say swish outlast fragile dunno how to bunt gardner tho.

  426. Jerkface December 31st, 2010 at 12:36 am

    since the twins starting era over the past five years is less than the yankees starting era and they do this at half the salary expenditure with mostly homegrown pitchers i’d say they do indeed develop pitchers.

    why are you and jerkface so threatened by the fact the twins are doing a much better job than the yankees at developing starters ?

    The only thing the twins were good at is selecting types of pitchers more likely to reach their low talent ceiling. And doing it 7-5 years ago when the Yankees were not drafting well.

    They did not ‘develop’ any of their current pitchers in a more meaningful way than the Yankees. Your whole argument is based around trying to advance the idea of ‘taking it slow’ and ‘not rushing pitchers’, but it has been proven over and over that the twins rush their pitchers, mix them up between roles, switch em around, and that their best pitchers don’t spend a lot of consecutive time in the minor leagues. They get brought up, suck, sent down, brought up, suck in the majors, kept around, put out 1 good year.

    To say the twins have some starters is true, they’ve spent the past 4 years with these guys in the majors. And they missed the playoffs 2 of those. And their starters are no more likely to be GOOD than any starter the yankees bring up this year because they are all low talent nobodies.

  427. Jerkface December 31st, 2010 at 12:41 am

    Its intellectually dishonest to suggest the Twins have some proven system which has somehow given them this bounty of pitchers (Baker, Slowey, etc), when these guys have been kicking around in the majors for the last 5 years, they actively ruined Liriano by rushing him as a young international free agent and jumping his innings up massively and working him.

    And these guys would not hack it in the AL east. Its no surprise they all have ERA’s over 4.5 against the Red Sox, Yankees, and Rays.

    Lets see how the Yankees do now, for the next 5 years. To beat the twins they need to develop 3 pitchers out of the current crop that is on the way up.

  428. Against All Odds December 31st, 2010 at 12:42 am

    # Jerkface December 30th, 2010 at 4:00 pm

    Chamberlain is not moving back into the rotation after having thrown 71.2 scattered innings last season.

    If it worked for Adam Wainwright, it could work for Joba Chamberlain.
    ———————————

    It’s probably been already but yea it could work for him since the Yankees also look at career highs in innings and not just the previous yr.

  429. randy l. December 31st, 2010 at 12:44 am

    “And their starters are no more likely to be GOOD than any starter the yankees bring up this year because they are all low talent nobodies.”

    whatever you say.

    the low level nobodies have beaten the yankees out in starter era average for the past five years .

    you’d think that when the yankees add cc sabathia for 160 million and aj burnett for 80 million that the yankees could at least have a better starter era average than these low talent nobodies.

    but hey that’s just me.

  430. Mike in Chicago December 31st, 2010 at 12:46 am

    Apropos nothing, has anyone seen this?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....&NR=1

    Was fun to watch. 1998 doesn’t seem like 12 years…er…13 years ago…

  431. Pat M. December 31st, 2010 at 12:49 am

    I’d welcome Slowey with open arms to the Yanks rotation….

  432. Jerkface December 31st, 2010 at 1:05 am

    Slowey has been below average for his career and most seasons of his career. I would not welcome him with open arms. Maybe this season, but I’d be looking to replace him in a heart beat.

  433. Pat M. December 31st, 2010 at 1:08 am

    He’s healthy now……

  434. Jerkface December 31st, 2010 at 1:09 am

    The only above average pitchers who made the most starts on the Twins last year were Liriano and Pavano. I mean good lord, listen to yourselves. Its great that the Twins have allowed Baker, Slowey, and all these guys to hang around for the past 5 years such that they are readily available for the Twins to use next season, but that is not something the Yankees would have been able to work.

    The yankees are looking to win every year, they average 10 more wins a year than the Twins so they’re doing something right even if it is SPENDING MONEY. And now Cashman and the Yankees have put a greater emphasis on the draft and we are going to start seeing pitchers come up and contribute. Hopefully.

    And I think that will put an end to Randy’s baseless ranting. I’m sorry the Yankees did not draft well in the early 2000s so they don’t have this crop of mediocre starters the Twins have readily at hand, but we’re going to start seeing good pitchers come up.

  435. Jerkface December 31st, 2010 at 1:13 am

    He’s healthy now……

    Tell me all about his injuries. Strained wrist in 2009 and elbow soreness in 2010, not sure how much good he is going to be when he goes down in 2011 and needs TJS. And honestly he wouldn’t be a fit on the Yankees. He is a right handed control pitcher who gives up predominantly fly balls and throws 88 mph. His minor league stats are predicated on his control, and in the majors he’s given up tons of HRs, hasn’t struck out as many as he did in the minors (even in his best healthy season) and gives up way more hits.

  436. Jerkface December 31st, 2010 at 1:15 am

    Pat M, I don’t know if you remember but Slowey got removed in the middle of a nono bid last year because Gardenhire didnt want to blow his elbow out. He is not long for this rotation.

  437. GreenBeret7 December 31st, 2010 at 1:42 am

    Slowey had the wrist surgery in 2009 because a piece of bone that was causing the problem was removed. As far as taking him out of the game with the no-hitter, he was already at 106 pitches and he threw 114 pitches in the previous start on 4 Auguest and he missed one start. It was elbow tendonitis. Hardly unusual for pitchers. He wasn’t going to throw any more than that in the game. He’d be just fine in pinstripes.

  438. GreenBeret7 December 31st, 2010 at 1:45 am

    5 August…not 4 August

  439. Jerkface December 31st, 2010 at 1:47 am

    Slowey gives up a ton of hits and HRs, he would be a disaster.

  440. Jerkface December 31st, 2010 at 1:48 am

    Its like Javy Vazquez but with more flyballs and less strike outs. Great. Sign me up for that.

  441. Pat M. December 31st, 2010 at 1:52 am

    Face….Did you get nothing but straw and coal for Christmas…..Man you’ve been been a pisser all week it seems…..

  442. Jerkface December 31st, 2010 at 1:57 am

    My christmas was swell, in fact this whole holiday season has been awesome. Unfortunately the LOHUD blog has been full of gloom and doom and now I have Randy trying to sell wolf tickets about the twins rotation.

  443. Jerkface December 31st, 2010 at 2:02 am

    And honestly do you really look at the Twins pitchers and go ‘I wish the Yankees had these guys’, they all give up a ton of hits and HRs and then you wanna stick em in New Yankee Stadium which in general gives up lots of HRs and you’re taking guys who are already bad at limiting HRs and then putting them in that place?

    Its a death trap. And these guys are righties mind you, giving up bombs to lefties will be their specialty and they don’t strike anyone out.

    If I wanted to take a pitcher off the Twins and put em on the Yankees, I’d probably take Liriano. A lefty with upside and a history of injury. Maybe Duensing but he hasn’t started a full season.

  444. GreenBeret7 December 31st, 2010 at 2:05 am

    As the saying goes…you can give up hits or you can give up walks. You can’t give up both. Best I remember, Robin Roberts, Blyleven and Catfish Hunter have up a lot of fly balls and home runs. They turned out pretty decently. Seems that he matches up with Cliff Lee and Ricky Molasco at the same age pretty well.

  445. Pat M. December 31st, 2010 at 2:11 am

    I like Duensing as well…..Remember these guys used to throw in the Homer Dome prior to this season and although the Yanks did prevail in 09 the Twin bullpen and a few base running brain cramps gave that series to The Pinstripers……My take is that Cup isn’t necessarily saying the Twins starters are better one on one, his contention is that the Twins groom their pitchers better than the Yanks do…..Until we see some evidence to prove him wrong in the next few years he has a point……Wang, Hughes and Kennedy is not an impressive record to date…..Take away Pavano and everyone on that staff is young………Glad your Yule-time season was swell

  446. Jerkface December 31st, 2010 at 2:13 am

    Thats true, I’d rather they do one or the other. But I don’t see the real comparison for those pitchers. Nolasco strikes out more guys and gives up less hits and less HRs. Cliff Lee gave up less hits, less HRs. Both those guys have better stuff. Blyleven had the best curve in the game or one of the best and his WHIPS were usually low.

    Slowey has 2 seasons where he gave up 11 hits per 9, and last year it was .1 away from 10. And he gives up a ton of HRs. And this isn’t even without looking at the ground ball rates for guys like Nolasco and Cliff Lee compared to Slowey.

    He gives up line drives and flyballs and doesn’t K a lot of guys, I don’t think it’d be good in NYS or Fenway.

    Its fine in Target, that place is massive, and Kaufmann that is a pitchers park and Detroit.

  447. Pat M. December 31st, 2010 at 2:14 am

    GB….Those guys you just mentioned are in the Halll , well Blyleven has been jobbed in that regard…..Never faced him but sat in the dugout during spring training games and listened to guys b..tch and moan about his hook…..Murcer hated facing him….

  448. Jerkface December 31st, 2010 at 2:20 am

    his contention is that the Twins groom their pitchers better than the Yanks do

    This is the fundamental point of the argument. The only grooming the Twins did was be cheap enough to leave these guys laying around the majors to soak up innings. The yankees cannot do that. They just can’t. Now that is not to say the Yankees have not had crap filling up the roster. They can’t willfully allow it. If I had a choice, I’d rather the yankees 5 ERA guys be like the Twins in that they can be replaced or shuffled to the minors. It sucks when its Javy and burnett and they have huge contracts.

    Look at Ross Ohlendorf, his stats look awfully similar to the twins guys. Perhaps we’d have kept him around we’d have him to eat up some innings this year.

    But the yankees are in the hunt for a world series, and those guys who good enough for a cheap team aren’t good enough for the yankees. The Yankee rotation going into every season is supposed to be potent and star studded. Thats what happens when you go to the playoffs every year. Its what you get when you win 97 games a year on average and the twins win 88.

  449. GreenBeret7 December 31st, 2010 at 2:26 am

    Pat, Murcer wasn’t very fond of Gaylord Perry, either. Never understood why Blyleven, Kaat, Santo and Tommy john, as well as Tiant have been ignored by the HOF voters. Never bought off on the “they were just stats compilers”. All players are stats compilers. Perry, Seaver, Roberts, Carlton, etc all hung around a long time. Al Oliver and Fred McGriff are two others. How Stargell can be in but McGriff isn’t good enough.

  450. Jerkface December 31st, 2010 at 2:29 am

    Morris over Blyleven is the modern day war crime perpetrated by the baseball writers association. I’m glad we all see to agree that atleast Bert was a HOFer

  451. Pat M. December 31st, 2010 at 2:39 am

    Jimmy Kaat is another pitcher who I just don’t get it when it comes to Cooperstown…..TJ as well to a lesser degree in my mind……The hitters you mentioned have been an ongoing puzzle for years especially Ron Santo…..

  452. GreenBeret7 December 31st, 2010 at 2:55 am

    During Santo’s era, only Matthews was a better hitter and only Robinson and Clete Boyer were better glove men at third base. If that’s not domination, I don’t know what is. Perhaps if he would have advertised that he was a diabetic, people would have realized just how good he really was. Never understood Oliver, either. There were few that were as good and consistant during his time. His only mistake was not hitting more homers. He could hit some of the nastiest liners that I’ve seen since that time. He just never elevated them.

  453. Pat M. December 31st, 2010 at 3:07 am

    Ron Santo not being in the Hall of Fame is and has been our national pastime’s disgrace in my opinion…….Now he’ll get in after his passing which only compounds this omission….

  454. Nick in SF December 31st, 2010 at 3:15 am

    I think the crux of randy’s argument is that he once sat in some office listening to Van Cliburn. It happened to be a Twins office, therefore that system is better than the Yanks’ system.

    Maybe if the Twins had developed Hughes he could have not just made the All-Star team in his first full year as a starter but also not lost the game for the AL.

  455. Pat M. December 31st, 2010 at 3:20 am

    nICK IN sf……This conversation about The Twins and The Yanks gets interesting when one considers that The Young Master Hughes could have been a Twin and if that was to be the case, Yanks very well would have lost thhe ALDS IN 2009…….

  456. Bo knows December 31st, 2010 at 3:32 am

    Thanks guys for the sparring match. It was awfully boring around here. Glanced in here and four hundred posts, what the hell?

    Aah it’s Randy taking on the world. Good one.

    “Facts, I don’t want no stinking facts – Yeehah!” Good Stuff all around.

    Yankee pitcher stats – Last five years. Yikes

    Well, Big George fired all the scouts one year because they made too much money and then there was a waste in the minors for years and years. Then came the elf who’s never held a job besides the Yankees and backed Big George off. Now we have pitching in the minors as far as the eye can see. Developing pitchers? Who the hell knows. One would think Marshall should be the guru, proved it on the field. No team will take a minute to listen to him. Otherwise it’s the unlimited monkeys and typewriters trying for Shakespeare.

    Hughes at 21 was blowing everyone away. Too bad they didn’t give him another month before Texas. Aah Monday morning armchair.

  457. Nick in SF December 31st, 2010 at 3:37 am

    Under the masterful tutelage of Cli Stuburn, Hughes would have certainly led the Twins to a World Championship in 2009, and probably not for the first time.

    We dodged a big bullet there.

  458. Jerkface December 31st, 2010 at 3:46 am

    I see Stan Cliburn was ousted from Minnesota following ‘new organizational direction in development philosophy’. Perhaps the Yankees should make a run?

  459. Bo knows December 31st, 2010 at 3:58 am

    I see Stan Cliburn was ousted from Minnesota following ‘new organizational direction in development philosophy’. Perhaps the Yankees should make a run?

    ———————————————-

    Ruthless – Double tapping every last nail.

    A word – Always leave a little on the table.

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  461. Jerkface December 31st, 2010 at 4:00 am

    Interesting minor league comparison.

    The Twins minor league pitching at every level walks less than the yankees, gives up more hits and HRs and strikes out less. The Yankees minor league pitching gives up less hits, strikes out more, and gives up less HRS.

    Organizational philosophies at work?

  462. Bo knows December 31st, 2010 at 4:16 am

    Now that’s not kosher. The Yankees draft budget allows them to over slot all the doubtfuls including pitching. Yankees top eight pitchers are arguably all products of the overslot drafting. Minnesota can’t afford to compete. Minnesota is a top quality organization considering their limitations.

  463. Jerkface December 31st, 2010 at 4:26 am

    The yankees spent 4 million more than the Twins over 3 years 2008-2010. 4 million over 3 drafts is not negligible, but its not vast either. Though I am impressed at the Twins ability to furnish the majors with so many players with such a similar skillset. Their scouts must know exactly what to look for.

  464. Nick in SF December 31st, 2010 at 4:33 am

    Now that they’ll be playing outdoors, the new Twins’ organizational philosophy is to draft pitchers with unusually thick skin and/or Eskimos/Canadians.

    Adios Cliburn, Bonjour Royal Mounted Scouting Patrol.

  465. Bo knows December 31st, 2010 at 4:56 am

    Hockey players can hit a baseball. Little known Canadian fact.

    Pitching thrives on Lake Ontario. Witness Blue Jays – fact

    Minnesota focusing north – fact.

    Okay, Winnipeg might be a reach.

  466. Bo knows December 31st, 2010 at 5:03 am

    Minnesota should focus on their natural attributes. All those tall, buxom, blonde madchens running around. Blondes and furs are dream, mountain climbing, fantasy material.

  467. Doreen December 31st, 2010 at 6:43 am

    Good morning, morning people.

    I have been up since 3:30. We drove my parents to the airport and they are now en route to their warmer climes. It was an interesting 2 weeks. :) (Is it every family that has one offspring that has responsibility for the folks? Where the others consider their duty done with a phone call and the Christmas Eve visit?)

    Anyhoo – going car shopping today! I want to downsize a little. No longer need a regular sized SUV (we have an MDX), but I like the “hatchback” feature of an SUV. Looking at the Tiguan, RDX and CR-V. Wish me luck.

    I seriously can’t wait for some real Yankees news. The theoretical debates are killing me! :) I always love to read Nick in SF’s perspective. Kinda balances everything out. I doubt there’ll be anything meaty until next week (if then).

  468. upstate kate December 31st, 2010 at 7:28 am

    Hi Doreen
    My husband has a CR-V and loves it.
    yeah, I agree, I am ready for some real news…this reminds me of the saber wars last year.

  469. SAS December 31st, 2010 at 7:39 am

    Good morning Doreen from my Igloo,

    We too are taking on a new expense today. We knew we had to take advantage of the Government rebates for AC/heating systems. Unfortunately, our plans were delayed with lots of other things in NY as you know.

    My husband did his homework on new systems and interviewed a number of people. We had decided to go with one and made the commitment. It is being done ths morning. It wouldn’t be a story if we had heat. The house is now 58 degrees, and we are freezing. I like it cool in the house, but not this cool. It is just freezing. I had no idea just how cold 58 degrees is without sun etc.

    The difference between our 2 purchases is that people well may admire your new wheels; no one will ever know how beautiful our new unit is especially to us.

    Should I not get the chance later today, let me wish you and your family the best year yet…A happy, healthy and prosperous year to all of you.

  470. SAS December 31st, 2010 at 7:41 am

    Kate,

    A healthy, happy New Year to you and your family. May 2011 be everything you want it to be

  471. Doreen December 31st, 2010 at 7:41 am

    Hi upstate kate -

    I really like the way the newer CR-Vs look. I didn’t like the ones with the tire on the back. And they have a great color selection. And a good price. So just need to drive them all and sit in them and figure it out! :)

    The saber wars were more civil than these! I am like a mama hen with the Yankees and all this unending, unyielding criticism of my team is getting to me. (I’m not naive, I know they’re not perfect.)

  472. Doreen December 31st, 2010 at 7:52 am

    Good morning SAS -

    I can imagine how uncomfortable you must be right now. There’s only so many blankets you can bundle up in, and even with that, it restricts your mobility.

    Your story reminds me of when we bought our current home. The builder would not upgrade our windows. Apparently he had a falling out with Andersen (because that’s the windows he used in his prior homes) and only offered a far inferior brand, contractor special. At the time we bought the house, there were few options in the area we wanted (and we wanted new construction in a very particular geographical area) and we like the home otherwise. But my husband promised me that we could upgrade the windows after we moved in. Well, there are over 30 windows in my house. I got an estimate. He balked. He didn’t want to spend that money on something he wouldn’t be able to appreciate. We got an inground pool instead. (About 2 years after we moved in, because when we bought the house, we had both decided we didn’t want a pool – he changed his mind.)

    The windows we have are awful. On a windy cold day, my house is cold regardless of what the thermostat is set on because there are all these little breezes from most of the windows.

    I would have appreciated the windows more than the pool (though I do love the pool), for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is the windows were a fixed cost and the pool is a money pit. :(

  473. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 7:53 am

    Doreen-

    Good morning.

    Can’t go wrong with a Honda product.

    Good luck.

    (I’d like a new 4-runner. Or even a used one. No can do.)

    :)

  474. PittsburghYankeeFan December 31st, 2010 at 7:54 am

    Doreen: Ever looked at a Volvo?

    Baseball wise, here’s a thought: obtain Soriano (not Soria, since Soriano is only $$$ and you have $35 million per year to spend) and make Joba a starter (at worst league average). That will get you through a year or two, to see what you have in Joba, the B’s, and Montero. 8th and 9th are now locked up, with decent guys for the 7th (Feliciano, Robertson) and lefties (Logan, Feliciano).

    It would also be cheaper in the end than signing Freddy Garcia, Bartolo Colon, etc or trying to trade for other dregs (which you could do at the trade deadline). Joba would be better than any of those options, and with a new pitching coach, it would be like a change of scenery.

    Makes too much sense for it to happen. This could be a pitching “bridge” year for the club, as Cashman’s theories get the true test. Why not (as I get flamed)?

  475. upstate kate December 31st, 2010 at 7:58 am

    brrr…bundle up SAS!!!
    While everyone else seems to be experiencing cold weather, it is mild here, well 40s, which is mild for us, all the snow is melting into a slushy mess.

    Happy New Year!!!

  476. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 7:59 am

    SAS-

    Next time go further South.

    Like South America. It’s Summer there.

    The weather this year is causing records in many places to fall by the wayside.

    How about some electiric heaters ? DeLongi’s work quite well and are reasonably efficient.

    Either that, or it’s time to break out the Parka’s and the longjohn’s.

  477. upstate kate December 31st, 2010 at 8:01 am

    I like your idea PYF. I would rather see the youngsters, Joba included, than some bargin basement pitchers…of course I am still hoping for Garza :)

  478. Doreen December 31st, 2010 at 8:05 am

    Pittsburgh Yankee Fan -

    We decided no on the Volvo based on a few things. We made a list of every car in the category and whittled down. The RDX is only on there because I’ve enjoyed my MDX and I like the service department at my Acura dealership. :)

  479. Doreen December 31st, 2010 at 8:09 am

    Pittsburgh Yankee Fan -

    I also like your idea.

    What have they got to lose, really, by giving Joba another shot?

    But I don’t think they’ll do it.

  480. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 8:11 am

    And before I forget.

    May all of you have a healthy, happy, and prosperous New Year.

    :)

  481. Doreen December 31st, 2010 at 8:12 am

    Thanks, MTU. And I wish you and the rest of this motley crew the same!

    :)

  482. Joe from Long Island December 31st, 2010 at 8:22 am

    Good morning all –

    Doreen, I fully feel your pain about how responsibility for parents sometimes become the job of only one person. My acquired wisdom is to smile a lot, and consider it a labor of love. :)

    For everyone affected by winter storms, I hope you are all safe and sound.

    Doreen – two more things – replacing windows is a good investment. Not only does it improve potential resale value, but we find our heating bills have gone down while we are more comfortable. And, I’m going to be in the market for a new car soon, probably this spring. Keep us informed to what you learn.

    Off to work, later.

  483. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 8:26 am

    Doreen-

    Being the sole responsible one in a family is much more common than one would think.

    I can absolutely relate to what you were saying.

    Doreen and Joe are keeping the entire US economy afloat.

    The last 2 car buyers on Earth.

    :)

  484. Doreen December 31st, 2010 at 8:51 am

    Joe from Long Island -

    Thanks for the empathetic words. I consider myself a relatively smart person, and I realized that I need to make some changes to my holiday routine to eliminate some of the stress. Of course, my first gut reaction (to my husband) was to go away for Christmas next year and let everyone fend for themselves. I would never do it, but it was a good catharsis to say it out loud to someone. :lol:

    MTU -

    I like to do my part! ;)

    I had intended to keep my current car, but it really is too big now that we’re not moving our daughter in and out of her dorm a couple of times a year. Her next move would require a moving truck. So, for me, a smaller hatchback will do the trick and I won’t feel dwarfed by it. A couple of extra mpg will also help, since I find I’m driving up to Westchester a lot more than I thought I would be.

  485. Doreen December 31st, 2010 at 8:54 am

    Joe from Long Island -

    About the windows – I agree with you, and I’m frankly surprised by my normally cost-efficient and conservative husband. I’ve given up. ;)

  486. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 8:55 am

    Doreen-

    Again. Best of luck with your purchase. Use it in good health.

    Nothing quite like the smell of a new car.

    I would imagine you should be able to make an awesome deal.

    It’s a buyers market.

    Too bad it’s not that way for the Yanks.

    ;)

  487. Doreen December 31st, 2010 at 8:59 am

    MTU

    If only, right? :)

    Much rather talk about the newly acquired toy than the fact that we don’t have one yet.

  488. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 9:04 am

    Doreen-

    Very understandable.

    Back to the window thing then.

    When we had our home built we went with the extra insulation afforded by 2×6 framing and double-pane windows.

    I heartily recommend energy-saving measures as a long-term strategy.

  489. SAS December 31st, 2010 at 9:06 am

    MTU,

    A happy, healthy New Year to you and the family.

    It is down right freezing in here. At least we will have heat tonight. We just got a new furnace in NY, and I cannot tell you this was a budgeted for item.

    As far as long johns go, who the heck moves to the desert with long johns??? I know the weather won’t last, but this is painful. I can’t sleep even with extra blankets. I get warm very easily, but this is ridiculous. We even had snow of a sort yesterday. It looked more like styrofoam than snow. Wait, if we stay here long enough, I will complain about how hot it is.

    As long as we get the Government rebate later today, I will consider this a victory of sorts.

  490. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 9:08 am

    SAS-

    “As far as long johns go, who the heck moves to the desert with long johns???”

    You do have a point.

    :) :) :)

  491. SAS December 31st, 2010 at 9:09 am

    MTU,

    A happy, healthy New Year to you and your family.

    I wrote a couple of paragraphs about our situation that wouldn’t go through. It wasn’t that important.

  492. SAS December 31st, 2010 at 9:10 am

    Now it went through…lol

  493. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 9:12 am

    SAS-

    To err is human but to really screw things up you need a computer.

    :)

  494. Fran the original December 31st, 2010 at 9:13 am

    Good monring everyone.

    Doreen, good luck with whatever car you buy. I lease a new Toyota Rav4, but I don’t love it. If I could get out of my lease, I would.

    SAS, enjoy your new heating system. It is actually in the 40′s here now, so plenty of slush to wade through.

  495. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 9:15 am

    SAS-

    I assume you are going with a “Heat pump” for your new unit ?

  496. yankee21 December 31st, 2010 at 9:16 am

    PYF; if you are still around just want you to know that I agree 100% with your 7.54 post.
    Makes you wonder if it isn’t NYY plan except Cashman has been vocal in saying Joba is no longer a starter… a smart reporter would ask him why not and what is the risk in trying again?

  497. Doreen December 31st, 2010 at 9:18 am

    MTU -

    That’s the thing – we did everything EXCEPT upgrade the windows.

  498. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 9:20 am

    Doreen-

    Hey. Nobody’s perfect.

    :)

  499. Doreen December 31st, 2010 at 9:20 am

    Fran -

    Thanks. :)

    I hope you have slush-proof boots.

  500. pat December 31st, 2010 at 9:21 am

    (Is it every family that has one offspring that has responsibility for the folks? Where the others consider their duty done with a phone call and the Christmas Eve visit?)

    Yes. Welcome to my world. For a bonus, you probably get to hear about how busy they are and how considerate it was for them to call or stop by while you are doing back flips for 2 weeks to keep them entertained but I’m not bitter about it or anything. :wink:

  501. pat December 31st, 2010 at 9:25 am

    Doreen

    I’ve had multiple Hondas since 1982 and have never been disappointed.

  502. Brian December 31st, 2010 at 9:26 am

    SAS,

    If it helps, I’m in much the same boat here in Scottsdale. Replaced one of my heating/a/c units this summer (I had no choice since it just up and died on me) and got the rebates from the state, APS, wherever I could.

    It’s also 58 inside this morning. When we moved here from NY (Westchester) 14 years ago, I vowed a couple of things: 1. Not to have grass to water, in a desert, just to mow. So we removed it right away and put in rocks and desert landscaping. This has worked out quite well with minimal maintenance needed; 2. Not to turn on the heat. Haven’t had the heat on in 14 years, even a few years back when it was even colder than it is now (plus my wife and I did the PF Chang marathon on one of the super cold days). This vow has not worked out so well because I work in my house and I’m here all day, hoping for a warm-up. But I’m stubborn and my wife is a trooper.

    Doreen.

    Great time to buy a new car. Three years ago my car just quit and the dealer said it was so old (1999 model) it wasn’t worth fixing. So on Christmas Eve my wife got off work early and our son was visiting for Christmas so we took a drive to a nearby dealer. They had one left over car from the previous model year, and after a few hours they basically said we want to go home, what do you want to pay. Got a pretty good deal.

    The next week we were back. My son had seen a used car there he had liked and he bought that one too.

    The dealer seemed really motivated to clear these out before year end, plus it was the holidays and they wanted to go home.

    Good luck with yours.

  503. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 9:34 am

    Good morning all.

    As a point of information, the top rated cars in the USA are FDord products, by a wide margin.

    Honda just got a slap in the face when their new cars failed the federal safety test for side impacts, a 2 rating, which means your dead if hit in the side. Buy American, Buy Ford.

    MTU – You don’t need a new car, all you do is hike any way. What you need is a new Cam Am 800 ATV.

    Here’s wishing the Lo Hud crowd a very happy and healthy new year, and may all your dreams and wishes come true.

    It’s a shame, too many good people are no longer posting here, I imagine they just got sick of the immature fighting, name calling, and disrespectful manner in which some here carry on.

    I can’t wait for winter to end, and baseball to begin. Regardless of what team puts on the pinstrips in 2011, they’ll have my complete support.

  504. Doreen December 31st, 2010 at 9:36 am

    pat -

    That about sums it up. :?

    Not to mention the offers of the other siblings to “let me know if you need help,” when really the only thing you need is for them to take the folks off your hands for one afternoon and when you ask they say they have something to do. And to make matters worse, they come to YOUR house to visit them and so now you have to throw on respectable clothing and stop wrapping presents and entertain them.

    No, I’m not bitter, either. :lol:

    This too shall pass, and I’ll develop selective memory and do it all again next year.

  505. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 9:37 am

    New LoHud rule – No new threads until a minimum of 700 comments are posted. (Not really)

    Heyman was supposed to be filling in, I guess he thought it was like once every couple days he needed to add to the discussion.

  506. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 9:39 am

    Al-
    Actually, I’d like to go all “Schwarzenegger” and a get an original Hummer, full Military model. That would do me.

    The heck with the Polaris.

    My best to you and yours in the coming year.

    :)

  507. Doreen December 31st, 2010 at 9:39 am

    Thanks, pat and Brian.

    I’m off to get ready for our expedition. :)

    I feel well-armed, for once. Did a lot of research and it’s only between 3 cars. I’m starting to lean toward the Honda, but trying not to have a clear preference before the test-drives.

    See you all later. :)

  508. austinmac December 31st, 2010 at 9:40 am

    PYF,

    I like your plan. What is a poster had a plan and wasn’t flamed for it?

    To all the morning crowd, Happy New Year!

  509. austinmac December 31st, 2010 at 9:44 am

    I will go for a nice walk in my shorts this morning. Three seasons here are nice. Can I come live with you up north from June to September?

  510. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 9:45 am

    MTU -

    Now you sound like my wife. She wants a FULL military Hummer, machine gun turret included. Talk about letting it all hang out, I would not get in her way if she got her wish. I got to ride in one of those Hummers, not a very good riding vehicle, I don’t know how our guys in uniform have any kidneys left after riding in those all day.

  511. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 9:46 am

    Al-

    I like the machine gun turret idea.

    Your wife is a very smart lady.

    ;)

  512. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 9:48 am

    Mike – If we could only turn it towards a target that would make the most sense.

  513. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 9:49 am

    Back in a minute.

  514. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 9:51 am

    Al-

    Isn’t this supposed be be the season of Peace ?

    Did you get your new printer yet ?

  515. SAS December 31st, 2010 at 9:52 am

    Brian,

    We live in Westchester also and in Scottsdale. I love it here, Scottsdale, and never gave much thought to heating until we had some A/C problems in September. We are only replacing one of 2 units now for the Government rebate. In Westchester we had to replace our furnace a few weeks ago. Financially speaking, it was not part of the master plan.

    Our house in Scottsdale has cost much more in fixer up money than we could have imagined. The inspection guy did a terrible job. The house is 20 years old, and is acting much older. I do love it here though.

  516. randy l. December 31st, 2010 at 9:58 am

    good luck doreen. just leased a new honda. had to leave to ” think about it” get another $500 off though after they said that the price was as low as it could be. don’t let them sit you down and sign on the spot. a little patience usually saves some money.

  517. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 10:02 am

    Randy-

    “a little patience usually saves some money.”

    Brian Cashman, is that you ?

    :)

  518. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 10:11 am

    randy l. -

    Do you have any thoughts about the difference between the Twins system and that of the Yankees, as related to pitching?

    Just kidding, good morning. I think that subject got beaten to death last night and early this morning.

  519. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 10:13 am

    Patience, Patience – You Yankees fans can’t handle patience

  520. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 10:16 am

    MTU -

    Brian Cashman’s not available. He has a new gig coming up, and he’s busy trying on his new costume, the back half of a horse.

  521. Brian December 31st, 2010 at 10:18 am

    SAS,

    We lived in Irvington for 16 years before moving to Scottsdale.

    Our house here was built in the mid 1980s and is starting to show it’s age. Besides the one a/c unit (the other is still the original, so who knows how much life it has left) we also had to replace our roof this year. Luckily, we did it WHILE were having that terrible hail storm. The workers were on my roof when it started, then we all watched from my garage in disbelief.

    My neighbor has a flat roof, and he needed a lot of repair work on that after the hail. Plus, the roofer who did mine commented I was lucky – he was raising his price on all new jobs because of the demand from the hail damage.

  522. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 10:24 am

    Later folks.

  523. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 10:29 am

    Al-

    I’m still waiting for that rabbit.

    I bet the FO was indeed shocked when Lee went elsewhere.

    Texas had to be even more shocked.

    You have to admit it was longshot for him to wind up where he did.

    Who would have thunk it ?

    It’s one of those things that makes you go, Huh ?

    :)

  524. randy l. December 31st, 2010 at 10:32 am

    “The Twins minor league pitching at every level walks less than the yankees, gives up more hits and HRs and strikes out less. The Yankees minor league pitching gives up less hits, strikes out more, and gives up less HRS.

    Organizational philosophies at work?”

    jerkface-

    good post.

    one difference i see in the twins organizations is how long the coaches in the minor league system stay in the their organization.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/press_.....8;c_id=min
    here’s a sample:
    “Riccardo Ingram returns for his 14th season in the Twins organization, his second as Triple-A and Double-A Hitting Instructor. Ingram served as the coach at Triple-A Rochester in 2009.”

    “Stu Cliburn returns for his third season as pitching coach, a position he also held from 1999-2005, after spending 2006-08 as Rochester’s pitching coach. ”

    i’ve know stu cliburn for over twenty years and most of that time he’s been in the twins minor league system coaching.

    more:
    ” Also, former Twins’ great Tony Oliva will continue in his role as hitting coach, as well as various duties involving community relations, former manager Tom Kelly will continue in his role as special assistant to the General Manager, and Hall of Famer Paul Molitor will continue in his role as Minor League infield/baserunning coordinator.”

    what i see with the twins is they often hire former twins players who understand the twins philosophy and also keep coaches for a long time.

    they are kind of old fashioned in this sense. when people like tim kelly, tony oliva, and paul molter are giving input into the minor league system i think there is a continuity passed on.

    it’s not the only way to do it, but i do think it’s different than how the yankees do it now. the yankees seem to have a lot of guys from outside the yankees coming in though i’ll have to look closer to actually know that.

    i think taking a closer look at the people coaching and running the yankee minor league system will be a productive thing to do and as important as following the players themselves.

    even if a team doesn’t have a formal philosophy a de facto one will emerge. every organization has a culture.

  525. J. Alfred Prufrock December 31st, 2010 at 10:35 am

    My acquired wisdom is to smile a lot, and consider it a labor of love.

    ///my folks wiped my butt, fed me, kept me warm,read and sang to me,loved me,sent me to college & grad school,taught me how to throw a football,swing a bat,a golf club…..it’s a privilege,& there’s no labor in love.

  526. Abe Peterham December 31st, 2010 at 10:46 am

    The impatient buzzard said ” Patience my A**,
    I wanna kill something !”

    Let’s go yanks! Get Soriano

  527. blake December 31st, 2010 at 10:47 am

    MTU,

    Finding the rabbit is a patient process ;)

  528. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 10:52 am

    Blake-

    Honestly. In your heart of hearts. What do you really think Cashman is gonna do ?

    Losing Lee really put a crimp in their plans.

    In fact, it was a major hairpin turn.

    I hope he pulls something off. But I seriously doubt he will.

    Prove me wrong Brian it’s fine with me.

    :)

  529. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 10:54 am

    MTU -

    I got the printer, and finished setting it up yesterday, it is huge.

    Learning to get the most out of this printer, is like learning a new computer, if not worse. I’ll let you know how things go. I want to take a few hi-res pictures, print them, and compare the quality along side my other photo printer. Sure hope it was worth the investment.

  530. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 10:54 am

    Blake-

    Maybe still an outside shot of getting Pettitte.

    Waiting for the Soriano market to compress.

    We’ll see.

  531. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 10:56 am

    Al-

    A new toy for the new year.

    Excellent.

    :)

  532. SAS December 31st, 2010 at 10:58 am

    Brian,

    Do you live in N. Scottsdale or in Town?

  533. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 11:00 am

    MTU -

    You need a new Ford F-150 P/U, with a set of ramps to load your ATV with, then your good to go anywhere.

  534. randy l. December 31st, 2010 at 11:01 am

    “Just kidding, good morning. I think that subject got beaten to death last night and early this morning.”

    big al-

    you obviously wasn’t around when i first brought up the livan dead horse a few years ago. that dead horse was brought back to life so many times that it became a blog joke.

    of course nick in sf led the comedy show back then so it had more legs than usual.

    all kidding aside, it’s a productive thing to do to look closely at the coaches and the way the minor league system of the yankees gets it’s starting pitchers into the rotation.

    right now,the yankees are having a tough time getting starting pitchers from the minor league system into the yankee rotation. so far highs is the only one who’s stuck. nova has a shot. i really hope the yankees stick with him in the fifth spot and give him the long leash he needs to get a full year under his belt

  535. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 11:03 am

    Al-

    I already got that covered.

    4WD SUV with a trailer.

    And you’re absolutely right.

    It goes anywhere.

    I’ve been there. To “nowhere” that is. Right smack dab in the middle.

  536. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 11:03 am

    MTU -

    I see you got a bit of snow. From floods to snow storms, a strange year all around.

    I bought my younger son the same printer, his came yesterday. Now I’ll have his brain to pick if I get stuck, always a plan.

  537. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 11:04 am

    Mike -

    The next big investment, a satellite phone.

  538. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 11:07 am

    Al-

    Yup. General wierdness in most places.

    Britain with one it’s coldest seasons ever.

    Australia with massive floods in the Northern territories.

    Phoenix with cold and snow.

    Strange days indeed.

    I’m sure your Son can provide the necessary
    clues.

  539. Rich in NJ December 31st, 2010 at 11:08 am

    That’s why it should never be called global warming. It’s climate change.

  540. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 11:08 am

    Al-

    Use “telepathy”. Better call per minute rate.

    No moving parts to wear out.

    ;)

  541. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 11:10 am

    Al-

    Works anywhere under any conditions.

    Even while sleeping.

  542. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 11:11 am

    Rich-

    Whatever it is it sucks.

  543. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 11:14 am

    MTU -

    For the man who has everything!

    http://www.gmpcs-us.com/portab.....phones.htm

  544. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 11:16 am

    Al-

    You weren’t kidding.

    You don’t fool around.

    :)

  545. blake December 31st, 2010 at 11:17 am

    MTU,

    I really think Andy will wind up playing and think the Yankees will continue to pursue another starter regardless. I don’t know if anything will come of it this winter or not. If not then they will re-eval during the season as teams fall out of contention. I also don’t know.about Soriano but I’ve thought all along that the Yanks were lying in the weeds on him.

    * as a side note….I know Hernandez isn’t available now but let’s say the Mariners are horrible again this season as they figure to be. Felix’s salary nearly doubles in 2012 so its possible they could look to move him midseason to get max value if its looking like they will need full rebuild mode to compete again….if you’re the Yankees then you certainly would hate to part with assets now that may help you later in that event unless it really makes a lot of sense.

  546. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 11:20 am

    Blake-

    As long as Cashman has the team ready to go before the start of ST where there.

    I really don’t know what AP is going to do but I
    certainly have my strong preferences.

    ;)

  547. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 11:21 am

    edit; “we’re there”. Sorry. extreme denseness.

  548. mick December 31st, 2010 at 11:22 am

    Andy coming back after the ASB might be the best idea yet. Give the kids a shot, pray for AJ, getting Andy will be like a trade deadline deal.

  549. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 11:22 am

    MTU -

    To enjoy a warm climate this year, you need to go to South America, even Florida’s been cold.

    Hey, Al Gore, how’s that global warming thing coming along?

    It’s all bulls**t, if you read about weather changes over all the years, you’ll see this is just nature making changes, not much man has to do with it. Watched a very interesting show, with all the people that think they have the answers, and yet, if we did everything they want us to do, and spent billions of dollars over the next 65 years, they project a decrease in the worlds temp by 0.10 degrees, wow, we better get started right away. It’s just the green folks wanting to sell electric cars, yet, they can’t answer where all the power will come from, and how we’ll generate all that additional power to charge these electric cars. This will go down in history as the biggest joke on mankind.

  550. Rich in NJ December 31st, 2010 at 11:23 am

    MTU

    I agree. My point is that accurate labeling may help to ward off the attacks of those who try to deny reality.

  551. Rich in NJ December 31st, 2010 at 11:25 am

    “Hey, Al Gore, how’s that global warming thing coming along?”

    This is my point. It calls it climate change. Global warming is one aspect.

  552. Rich in NJ December 31st, 2010 at 11:25 am

    He calls it…

  553. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 11:27 am

    Al-

    Careful.

    You’re preachin’ heresy there.

    Study Solar ouput variabilty, Milancovitch cycles, and Super Volcanoes.

    ;)

  554. LGY December 31st, 2010 at 11:28 am

    With Yankees:

    Dave Miley (AAA manager): since 2006
    Butch Wynegar (AAA HC): Since 2007
    Scott Aldred: (AAA PC): Since 2007

    Tony Franklin (AA M): 2007
    Julius Matos: (AA HC): 2008
    Tommy Phelps: (AA PC): 2009

    Torre Tyson (A+ M): 2006
    Greg Pavlick (A+ PC): 2002
    Derek Shumphert: (A+ Coach): 2009

    Greg Colbrunn (A M): 2007
    Justin Turner (A HC): 2010
    Jeff Ware (A PC): 2007

    Josh Paul (A- M): 2008
    Ty Hawkins (A- HC): 2000
    Pat Daneker (A- PC): 2008

    Nardi Contreras: 1995, since 2005
    Kevin Long: 2004

  555. randy l. December 31st, 2010 at 11:29 am

    rich in nj-

    with the debates i’ve been having with jerkface over the twins/yankees minor league success or lack of it getting starting pitchers into the major league team’s rotation, i’ve noticed that there doesn’t seem to be any sabermetric data that measures a teams ability to get players from the minors to the majors.

    do you know of any stats on it?

    you’d think it’d be pretty easy to do. things like time in the minors could be measured, time in a mlb teams rotation for players from it’s minot league system, time in any mlb teams rotation, etc.

    even on the subject of time necessary for a pitcher to spend in the minors. it all seems anecdotal and no hard data seems to exist.

    i do notice that guys like lincecum and kershaw come up quickly and sometimes skip triple a. it just seems someone at BP or somewhere like that would be measuring the results of the differing development paths that starting pitchers are taking.

    it is an issue important to the yankees because cashman is committing to bringing up some starters from within and so far all he has is hughes who has successfully made the leap and stuck.

  556. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 11:33 am

    MTU -

    The Earth making changes, still cooling off, and settling. It’s been going on forever, and will continue long after we’re gone. No need to panic or be concerned with things in life you have no control over.

    Can’t wait to see all those high priced coastal homes when the seas continue to rise. Well folks, you did say you wanted water front property.

    Some say the Sun will explode soon, thus we’ll all be gone, and no more need to worry. Heck, even if we get those large sun flares they’re talking about we’re doomed. Enjoy each and every day, 2012 is just around the corner.

  557. LGY December 31st, 2010 at 11:35 am

    With Twins

    AAA

    Tom Nieto (M): 2009
    Floyd Rayford (HC): 2000
    Bobby Cuellar: (PC): 2002-2005, since 2008

  558. DaSaint007 December 31st, 2010 at 11:36 am

    Thought this was interesting:

    CJ Wilson, an avid fan of racing and in particular the American Le Mans Series presented by Tequila Patrón, won his class at the NASA-sanctioned “25 Hours of Thunderhill” in Sacramento, Calif. Better known as a starting pitcher for the American League champion Texas Rangers, Wilson’s Mazda MX-5 completed 596 laps and placed sixth overall.

    http://auto-racing.speedtv.com.....l-the-way/

  559. West Coast Yankee Fan December 31st, 2010 at 11:36 am

    Breaking my vow on politics – It’s a shame that so many who know so little jeopardize so many with their lack of understanding of climate science and the potential disaster that awaits.

    To attempt to draw a scientific conclusion based on any given winter weather event makes about as much sense as saying A-Rod is a lousy ballplayer because he struck out four times in a game.

    Al Gore is a great hero and will be remembered in history accordingly; no one will remember the name of any global warming denier.

  560. Rich in NJ December 31st, 2010 at 11:37 am

    randy

    TBH, I can’t answer your question with any degree of certainty. I would think a traditional review would answer the question.

  561. Rich in NJ December 31st, 2010 at 11:38 am

    “No need to panic or be concerned with things in life you have no control over.”

    This is a typical strawman argument. No is panicking. They’re just saying to use common sense.

  562. randy l. December 31st, 2010 at 11:39 am

    lgy-

    the thing that jumps out from that list is i don’t recognize any former yankees there. maybe just wynegar for a really short time.

    did any of these guys come up in the yankee system?

    the twins have a lot of guys who played for the twins in their minor league coaching system.

    i’m not sure i like seeing all guys coaching for the yankees who are from cinncinnati , milwaukee, or some other obscure team,

    the twins have paul molitor and tony olive as special minor league advisors. do the yankees have some of their former stars in minor league consulting roles?

    i’m not saying they don’t . i really don’t know if they do, but they should.

  563. LGY December 31st, 2010 at 11:39 am

    Twins

    AA

    Jeff Smith (M): 2006
    Tom Brunansky (HC): July 2010
    Randy’s Pretend Friend Stu Cliburn: 1993

  564. DaSaint007 December 31st, 2010 at 11:42 am

    I know that Cashman has repeatedly stated that Joba is a reliever, but I’m wondering if Joba came to them in shape for ST (it’s not too late to do so), and won a starting role, what would happen after the ASB if Pettitte decided to return? Would Joba remain in the rotation, or would he be shuffled back to the pen? Again.

  565. LGY December 31st, 2010 at 11:43 am

    Twins

    A+

    Jake Mauer (M): 2008
    Jim Dwyer (HC): 1991
    Steve Mintz (PC): 2002

  566. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 11:45 am

    WCYF-

    I am not going to debate Climate science with you here but i would like to say a few things and then I’ll stop.

    I don’t think anyone denies that the Earth is warming right now, at least I don’t.

    For me, and many others, the real question is Man’s role in it.

    Some believe it is substantial. Others like myself believe it is minor compared with those things I mentioned above,i.e. natural variations in solar output, Milancovitch cycles, etc.

    If it is indeed based on the things I mention there is little Man can do about it.

    JMO. You are entitled to yours.

  567. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 11:45 am

    “Al Gore is a great hero” – That’s like saying Hitler was a great leader, and was just misunderstood.

    Al Gore is a liar, a self promoter, and it was written, his home compound in TN uses more power, than half the town he lives in. You don’t just talk the talk, you do as you tell others to do. As i stated, after 65 years of total energy restrictions the greenies want put in place, the experts state the mean difference could possibly be a reduction in the average world temps of 0.10 degrees. The Earth has gone through these cycles from the beginning of time, and will continue to do so. Perhaps you’re too young to remember when all the “Experts” said we were heading for another “Ice Age”.

    Hey Al Gore, thank you so much for inventing the Internet, I enjoy it very much.

  568. Brian December 31st, 2010 at 11:46 am

    SAS,

    When we moved here, it was sort of north, but now we’re pretty much in the center as the city kept expanding northward. Around Shea Blvd.

  569. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 11:47 am

    Al-

    I’m with you. Enjoy every minute.

    Who knows, the Mayans might just be correct.

    ;)

  570. LGY December 31st, 2010 at 11:49 am

    Twins

    A

    Nelson Prada (M): 2004
    Tommy Watkins (HC): 2010
    Gary Lucas (PC): 2000

  571. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 11:50 am

    MTU -

    I hope to have my very special calander in place for 2012, at least I’ll go out happy.

  572. DaSaint007 December 31st, 2010 at 11:50 am

    Halos might consider a deal with the Mariners for Chone Figgins.

    John Hickey of SportsPress Northwest writes that the Angels, who already struck out in their attempt to sign Carl Crawford, could view Figgins as the next best thing. Figgins is on the books for $26 million over the next three seasons with a vesting option for 2014, so the Mariners would be open to the financial relief a trade would provide.

    Figgins could return to third base in Anaheim, allowing the Mariners to use former first round pick Dustin Ackley or the newly acquired Brendan Ryan at second.

  573. DaSaint007 December 31st, 2010 at 11:51 am

    Options shrinking for Beltre…

  574. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 11:52 am

    Al-

    That is all anyone can ask.

    I’m getting drunk tonite.

    You ?

    :)

  575. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 11:52 am

    I thought the Angels were going strong after Beltre.

  576. Rich in NJ December 31st, 2010 at 11:53 am

    “Al Gore is a liar, a self promoter, and it was written, his home compound in TN uses more power, than half the town he lives in.”

    Yeah, let’s penalize Al Gore for being successful. I thought we were all capitalists. I guess you’re not.

    Al Gore is a liar? So is every freakin’ politician, but few have been smeared to the degree that Gore has.

  577. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 11:53 am

    MTU -

    Not a bad idea, except the meds I take do not allow for any drinking, but, I’ll be with you in spirit.

  578. LGY December 31st, 2010 at 11:54 am

    Twins

    A-

    Ray Smith (M): 1987
    Jeff Reed (HC): 2001
    Jim Shellenback (PC): 1983

  579. West Coast Yankee Fan December 31st, 2010 at 11:54 am

    MTU – Fair enough and I respect you opinion. It makes no sense for both sides to post an endless series of supposed facts; no one’s mind will be changed. It’s become a left-right issue and people will believe what they want to.

    Personally, I am thankful that the world has decided and made up it’s mind and is moving forward to deal with global warming. Cleaning up one’s room is never a bad idea.

  580. LGY December 31st, 2010 at 11:55 am

    I think the Twins A- coaching staff may be zombies.

  581. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 11:55 am

    Al-

    Sorry. I forgot about that.

    Good thing you didn’t.

    I have one for ya’

    :)

  582. Pat M. December 31st, 2010 at 11:56 am

    Doreen….Cadillac SRX is an outstanding crossover type vehicle….

  583. Against All Odds December 31st, 2010 at 11:57 am

    # DaSaint007 December 31st, 2010 at 11:42 am

    I know that Cashman has repeatedly stated that Joba is a reliever, but I’m wondering if Joba came to them in shape for ST (it’s not too late to do so), and won a starting role, what would happen after the ASB if Pettitte decided to return? Would Joba remain in the rotation, or would he be shuffled back to the pen? Again.
    ————————————————————

    Probably move him back to the pen. They really loving having Joba in the BP because he performs so so well there.

  584. West Coast Yankee Fan December 31st, 2010 at 11:59 am

    Big Al. You are factually wrong about Al Gore and his personal lifestyle, but if you want to spread distortions go ahead.

  585. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 12:00 pm

    WCYF-

    I’m just one ant on this sandpile we call Earth.

    If it makes everyone feel better to think they can indeed influence Planetary forces more power to them.

    Our sandbox out here is better than most IMO, and certainly more extensive.

    May next year be even better to you than this one.

    :)

  586. West Coast Yankee Fan December 31st, 2010 at 12:01 pm

    Same to you MTU.

  587. Rich in NJ December 31st, 2010 at 12:01 pm

    “Big Al. You are factually wrong about Al Gore and his personal lifestyle, but if you want to spread distortions go ahead.”

    Always beware of people that call other people liars.

  588. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 12:01 pm

    Pat M.-

    Too late. She bought the Honda.

    ;)

  589. DaSaint007 December 31st, 2010 at 12:01 pm

    BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 11:52 am
    I thought the Angels were going strong after Beltre.

    —————————————

    I did too. But it seems as if he’s pricing himself out of a job. It’s bad enough that everyone knows he has a reputation for producing only when he’s up for a new contract, so everyone seems hesitant to give him a long-term contract at big bucks.

  590. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 12:02 pm

    Have a good day folks.

    WCYF -

    Great idea bring your politics onto the blog. We went from having a fun talk about weather changes, to you having to promote your politics, by bringing in Al Gore.

    Rich in NJ -

    No one denies Al Gore, or anyone else to right to be successful. What I was trying to get across, is the fact Al Gore tells the world to go green and conserve enery, while his own home is not green in the least, and because of his lack of energy conservation, his home compound uses more power than half the town he lives in. No way this statement has anything to do with success or capitaism, just the fact he does not do as he preaches others to do.

  591. blake December 31st, 2010 at 12:03 pm

    Wonder how much the Yanks made off the Pinstripe Bowl. Seemed like it was a success…..good game, even a bit of controversy. That excessive celebration penalty was amongst the most ridiculous things I’ve ever seen…..can’t let something like that decide a game…especially when it was that minimal.

  592. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 12:05 pm

    Blake-

    Looks like I’m gonna get penalized for excessive celebration too.

    Tonite.

    :)

  593. blake December 31st, 2010 at 12:07 pm

    MTU,

    But see for it to be excessive then it has to be more than any other night ;)

  594. Rich in NJ December 31st, 2010 at 12:08 pm

    “No one denies Al Gore, or anyone else to right to be successful. What I was trying to get across, is the fact Al Gore tells the world to go green and conserve enery, while his own home is not green in the least, and because of his lack of energy conservation, his home compound uses more power than half the town he lives in. No way this statement has anything to do with success or capitaism, just the fact he does not do as he preaches others to do.”

    Actually, you are wrong. His house is green, but it is very big…because he is successful.

    Half the town, huh? Provide some objective data to back that up.

    Otherwise, I think it’s fair to think you are smearing Al Gore.

  595. West Coast Yankee Fan December 31st, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    Big Al – surely you jest? I initiated the conversation on climate change and Al Gore? Don’t be absurd.

  596. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 12:12 pm

    Rich in NJ-

    I need to go, but here is just one story about Gore’s home.

    http://www.snopes.com/politics.....rehome.asp

  597. blake December 31st, 2010 at 12:12 pm

    Mike maddux on the radio now…seems pretty open to the idea of moving Feliz to the rotation…which is what they should do. If they made that decision then Texas becomes the frontrunner for Soriano. He said they were going to stretch Feliz out in ST.

  598. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 12:13 pm

    Blake-

    I do it for the Economy.

    To keep things lubricated.

  599. LGY December 31st, 2010 at 12:13 pm

    The Twins have a 77 year old coach teaching a bunch of kids who can’t legally drink yet how to pitch.

    A 77 year old pitching coach!

    The guy can’t even bend over to pick up a baseball without throwing his back out, but he is teaching kids how to pitch.

  600. Mike Ri December 31st, 2010 at 12:16 pm

    LGY —

    The Twins have a 77 year old coach teaching a bunch of kids who can’t legally drink yet how to pitch.

    A 77 year old pitching coach!

    The guy can’t even bend over to pick up a baseball without throwing his back out, but he is teaching kids how to pitch.

    ————-

    My grandfather is 80 . .and he still rides his bike everyday ….. and he bowls every monday night . . LOL . . 77 is the new 87

  601. randy l. December 31st, 2010 at 12:16 pm

    Jeff Smith (M): 2006
    Tom Brunansky (HC): July 2010
    Randy’s Pretend Friend Stu Cliburn: 1993

    lgy-

    here’s what the world looks like if you didn’t grow up with your head stuck to a computer monitor.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1.....310120076/

  602. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 12:17 pm

    LGY-

    You’re gonna get old someday.

    ;)

  603. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 12:19 pm

    Randy-

    No offense but I like the “guy” in the middle.

    :)

  604. Rich in NJ December 31st, 2010 at 12:20 pm

    BIG AL

    That doesn’t say that he uses ” his home compound in TN uses more power, than half the town he lives in”

    And it says that he made improvements in 2007 that made the home far more efficient.

    My point remains. Al Gore made a ton of money after the disputed (to put it mildly) 2000 election, and he is enjoying that success with a very big house.

  605. randy l. December 31st, 2010 at 12:21 pm

    “LGY-

    You’re gonna get old someday.”

    mtu-

    if lgy and me both go to the lohud annual outing some summer that comment may be debatable :)

  606. West Coast Yankee Fan December 31st, 2010 at 12:21 pm

    Here are some facts Big Al:

    - Gore has renovated his home to make it a model “green” home.

    - Gore’s home exceeds Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design, or LEED, standards.

    - Gore’s neighborhood had zoning laws that prohibited the installation of solar panels. That has now been revised and Gore has installed solar panels on his roof.

    -He put in a geothermal system that will significantly reduce the cost of his water heating.

    - Upgraded his windows and ductwork to provide the best possible energy efficiency.

    - Gore installed energy-efficient light bulbs everywhere.

    -Gore put in a rain collection system to use for irrigation and watering foliage.

    - Gore drives a hybrid.

    - Gore’s signed up for 100% percent green power through Green Power Switch.

    - Gore flies commercial when he can. As an ex Vice President of the United States he receives s numerous threats. Depending upon the security assessment he is sometimes precluded from flying commercial.

    - Gore imaintains his official office in his home for which has to accomodate adequate staff. He’s has no other offices, making it unnecessary to use energy in separate locations.

    - Gores’ energy bills given the above are in line with others in the South where extreme heat and humidity make air-conditioning the primary drain on electricity.

    - The Gores purchase green energy for their home (green energy costs 50% more than energy from conventional sources).

    - One hundred percent of the profits from Gore’s book and movie “An Inconvenient Truth” go to an educational campaign to spread the message about global warming.

  607. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 12:24 pm

    Randy-

    LGY just suffers from chronic Mathematitis with
    inflamed Jamesianism.

    He’s actually a good kid. Occasionally.

    :)

  608. LGY December 31st, 2010 at 12:29 pm

    “here’s what the world looks like if you didn’t grow up with your head stuck to a computer monitor.”

    ————————-

    I actually didn’t have a computer in my house for a number of years after I was born!

  609. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 12:30 pm

    WCYF -

    Read all the reports, after his changes in 2007, he reported an 11% decrease in power consumpsion, but, after reporters spoke with the energy company, it was stated just the opposite, his power consumpson went up by 10% after the changes.

    Update, December 2007: Al Gore has hired dozens of workers and SUVs and managed to reduce his power consumption by 11%, from 20 times the average household to 18 times the average household. Congratulations. ;-)

    Update, June 2008: Actually, the information from Al Gore above was wrong. Gore’s electricity consumption increased by 10% rather than decreased after the renovations.

    http://motls.blogspot.com/2007.....ehold.html

  610. BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 12:32 pm

    End of discussion for me, now I really must leave, enjoy.

  611. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 12:32 pm

    LGY

    “I actually didn’t have a computer in my house for a number of years after I was born!”

    Don’t add lying to your already long list of crimes.

    I saw you on that E-Trade commercial.

    ;)

  612. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 12:33 pm

    Al-

    You’ve got mail ===>

  613. randy l. December 31st, 2010 at 12:33 pm

    “No offense but I like the “guy” in the middle.”

    mtu-

    that was frankie.

    here’s a good story:

    it’s 1990 and the daytona explorers are having the welcome party for players( and players trying out fot the team) arriving for the season at a daytona beach hotel penthouse. there are about 30-40 players and team personnel there when stu cliburn walks in with frankie. stu ,with frankie ,walks up to clete boyer and introduces himself since he hadn’t met him before. clete takes one look at frankie and says” nice to meet you. you’re on the team”.

  614. LGY December 31st, 2010 at 12:34 pm

    I saw you on that E-Trade commercial

    *****

    :lol:

  615. J. Alfred Prufrock December 31st, 2010 at 12:44 pm

    BIG AL December 31st, 2010 at 12:02 pm
    Have a good day folks.

    WCYF -

    Great idea bring your politics onto the blog. We went from having a fun talk about weather changes, to you having to promote your politics, by bringing in Al Gore.

    Rich in NJ -

    No one denies Al Gore, or anyone else to right to be successful. What I was trying to get across, is the fact Al Gore tells the world to go green and conserve enery, while his own home is not green in the least, and because of his lack of energy conservation, his home compound uses more power than half the town he lives in. No way this statement has anything to do with success or capitaism, just the fact he does not do as he preaches others to do.

    ///it seems you are the one, Big Al, who mounted the soapbox first.what’s more, making a comparison between Al Gore and Adolf Hitler is odious in the extreme.

    Adolf Hitler??

    You are a complete idiot,sir.

    & feel free to cast your views on the subject through the link below,where they aren’t discussing Yankee baseball.

    http://www.theenvironmentsite......nge-forum/

  616. MTU December 31st, 2010 at 12:44 pm

    Randy-

    LoL.

    I can’t say I blame him.

    :)

  617. West Coast Yankee Fan December 31st, 2010 at 12:50 pm

    Alfred – feel free to dictate to those who care what you think.

  618. J. Alfred Prufrock December 31st, 2010 at 12:52 pm

    Huh??

  619. J. Alfred Prufrock December 31st, 2010 at 12:54 pm

    WCYF – maybe its the way I set up comments I reply to & in that case,my apologies,but you might want to re-read that post again.my comments begin after the /// demarcation.Big AL is the commenter who derided you,not me.

  620. West Coast Yankee Fan December 31st, 2010 at 12:55 pm

    “Feel free to cast your views on the subject through the link below,where they aren’t discussing Yankee baseball’.

  621. West Coast Yankee Fan December 31st, 2010 at 12:56 pm

    My sincerest apologies in that case. The setup confused me, Again, I am sorry.

  622. Rich in NJ December 31st, 2010 at 12:56 pm

    Prufrock is correct.

    Big Al revealed his true colors with the offensively odious (if not completely insane) Hitler comparison.

  623. J. Alfred Prufrock December 31st, 2010 at 1:03 pm

    Thanks, RNJ. i would not even have entered the discussion had that comparison not been made,but Big AL comparing Al Gore to Adolf Hitler is probably the worst thing I have ever seen posted here.

    WCYF – Thanks,as I said I probably confused you with the way I set it up so sorry about that.what a sick thing to say.think I’ll step out for some clean air after that. good day,all.

  624. West Coast Yankee Fan December 31st, 2010 at 1:13 pm

    I didn’t see the Hitler comparison. I don’t think that people realize how hurtful that is to those who lost relatives in the Holocaust, even if it was a generation ago. Or to any other person for that matter. Unreal.

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