Room for one more
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 03, 2011 
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With Pedro Feliciano officially re-signed, the bulk of the Yankees bullpen has been put together for next season. There is, however, room for one more arm. Without an addition, the Yankees could move forward with a bullpen that’s very similar to last season’s initial group, but there are still several impact, late-inning relievers on the market.
Rafael Soriano, Grant Balfour, Brian Fuentes, Jon Rauch and Kevin Gregg are still out there, but Brian Cashman has said he would be hesitant to pay closer money for a setup man. In many cases, the Yankees would also have to decide whether it’s worth losing a first-round pick to add a reliever.
Closer
Last year: Mariano Rivera
This year: Rivera
At some point, Rivera will pass the ninth-inning torch, but right now it’s still his to carry.
Setup
Last year: Joba Chamberlain
This year: Chamberlain
At this time last year, Chamberlain was in the rotation mix. Now he’s a full-time reliever and seems poised to get another crack at the setup job unless the Yankees find a Kerry Wood replacement.
Setup
Last year: Dave Robertson
This year: Robertson
Of the in-house options, some combination of Robertson and Chamberlain seems best poised to setup for Rivera, handling the seventh and eighth innings as necessary. Pretty much the exact same late-inning situation as April of last year.
Left-handed specialist
Last year: Damaso Marte
This year: Pedro Feliciano
One veteran lefty needed season-ending (probably) surgery, so the Yankees went out and found a replacement. Hard to pinpoint any sort of difference between Feliciano’s new role and Marte’s old role.
Long reliever
Last year: Sergio Mitre
This year: Mitre
Last season, the Yankees had an abundance of long-relief types. They’ve since let most of them go — Moseley, Gaudin, Aceves — leaving Mitre as the most obvious in-house long man. That’s, of course, assuming he doesn’t end up in the rotation.
Second long man/Second lefty
Last year: Alfredo Aceves
This year: Boone Logan
Last year’s bullpen was setup to have several multi-inning pitchers. This year’s seems to be designed for more than one left-hander. Logan became a great find in the second half of last season, and could go more than one inning if necessary.
Swing man
Last year: Chan Ho Park
This year: ???
Spring training had already opened when the Yankees agreed to sign Park. They considered him a versatile reliever, one who could pitch his way into a late-inning role or pitch multiple innings at a time. It’s the same with the open spot in this year’s bullpen: It could be a second long man, or it could be a late-inning option. In-house choices include the Rule 5 picks, Robert Fish and Daniel Turpen, the out-of-options Romulo Sanchez or any number of minor leaguers including Mark Prior.
Associated Press photo
Fuentes, Rauch, and Soriano are the only 3 worth discussing. Gregg is not good and Balfour isnt good enough to give away a pick.
Fuentes and rauch are cheaper and Fuentes is lefty, so he makes some sense but neither stand out as strong EIG candidates in my view in that both would compete with Drob and Joba for that role.
Soriano is the lock down 8th inning guy who we can comfortably say will shorten the game. They Yankees have spent no tangible cake so far this year and if Andy doesnt return, they have no way to spend much of anything at all……its a soft market for Soriano….its a good move to make a hard play for him.
Fuentes and Rauch don’t cost picks, just get Rauch.
$3.5M for Rauch?
too much?
Rauch is nothing special IMO that couldn’t be filled internally (Brackman?)
I agree Soriano is the big play here. Signing him gives Yankees more options for entire staff.
I think Prior will have a role too…maybe this year’s Aceves.
And having 2 LHPs will be a great counter to the Red Sox and Rays line-ups, as well as Twins.
If Marte can come back by August, we will be in strong shape for play-offs.
From TR Sullivan (a Ranger’s beat writer’s blog)…
“…..The Rangers were interested in free agent pitcher Andy Pettitte and reached out to him this winter. The Rangers were told that Pettitte will either retire or go back to the Yankees. He will likely make a decision in February but if he pitches again, it will be with the Yankees. He made it clear he wants to retire as a Yankee.”
also from the same blog, Michael Yound doesn’t want to be cooperative about moving positions again….
“….The Rangers have sounded out Michael Young about a possible position change. Young was not receptive to the idea. Young has not spoken to the media this winter but has told the Rangers he’s not interested in moving off third base.”
Rauch sounds good unless he wants 3 years.
Why wouldn’t Rauch want 3 years? Look at all the other contracts signed…
I should say unless Rauch can get 3 years.
He can want 3, but doesn’t mean he will get it.
Soriano is clearly the best of the bunch. We shouldn’t care so much about a draft pick given our situation; if he would come here.
Why wouldn’t Rauch want 3 years? Look at all the other contracts signed…
–
And relievers are quickly running out of stupid teams willing to give 3 years.
Right now, I find Doreens’ quest for a new car to be the most interesting topic on this blog.
I’ve been looking at cars for a while now, just a matter of time before I go for it, and the Q5 has been on my own short list. It’s been interesting for me to read Doreen’s personal take on it, given what I’ve been reading in the automotive press. Sounds like a beaut, albeit pricey.
“There is a big difference between evaluating talent on other teams …and evaluating a pitcher on your team, with the help of scores of baseball personnel whose job it is to hlp make such decisions.”
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The same baseball personnel help make decisions like Javy Vazquez as well.
Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 6:18 pm
Why wouldn’t Rauch want 3 years? Look at all the other contracts signed…
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And relievers are quickly running out of stupid teams willing to give 3 years.
+++++++++++++++
There are still the Mets…and they are stupid enough to account for 5 teams
“Soriano is clearly the best of the bunch. We shouldn’t care so much about a draft pick given our situation; if he would come here.”
————
Even if you don’t care about the draft pick, the money and years are the main downside to Soriano anyway.
I’d sign up for 3-4 years with Soriano and give up the draft pick…how much worse can he be than Kei Igawa? And yet he has much more upside.
# BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 5:59 pm
I think Prior will have a role too…maybe this year’s Aceves.
And having 2 LHPs will be a great counter to the Red Sox and Rays line-ups, as well as Twins.
If Marte can come back by August, we will be in strong shape for play-offs.
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hasn’t pitched in the major leagues since 2006…don’t think he’ll be ready anytime soon…
If there is indeed room for one more arm in the bullpen, and assuming Brian Cashman is, unfortunately, still the Yankees GM, I would suggest we scan the gutters and dumpsters throughout baseball to see if we can find any broken down piles of garbage nobody else wants.
Those are the types of guys Cashman seems to be focusing in on.
I just bought an Audi Q5 about a month ago and love it.I picked up an R8 about a year ago and love that car too….very happy with Audi,well made…
Joeman–
We aren’t talking about a starting role…just middle relief. I think he will be ready. He got in some innings this last fall, and knows how to pitch in majors already.
I’d sign up for 3-4 years with Soriano and give up the draft pick…how much worse can he be than Kei Igawa? And yet he has much more upside.
–
Don’t think Igawa has anything to do with signing Soriano. He is an injury prone righty with good stuff. If he were a lefty that’d be awesome, but he is seriously just a right handed reliever with good stuff. he is awesome, but not draft pick + 4 years + 10 mil awesome. 4 million? Yea I guess I’d sign him for that much but he will command twice or more as much.
Look at his history of arm injuries. His throwing motion looks not smooth. He really whips his arm. If he goes down he becomes an expensive roster-waste. Kind of like Damaso Marte at the moment.
got myself into a CTS..AWD…Black on Black & sweet
SIDEBAR ISSUE: Can anybody confirm that Brian Cashman was able to wake up long enough to take part in the presser to announce the big Pedro Feliciano signing???
When does Igawa’s sentence in AAA end? Is this the last year before he’s released??
# BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 6:28 pm
Joeman–
We aren’t talking about a starting role…just middle relief. I think he will be ready. He got in some innings this last fall, and knows how to pitch in majors already.
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find it hard to believe you’ll see him pitching in the majors this year
As a wrote last week, I think Cashman is stuck hanging from a rope on the side of a building…
This is a super deep draft, the Yankees should be trying to acquire more draft picks not handing them away. Its really crappy to see Theo pick up guys off the waiver at the end of the year who are type A’s/type B’s for the express purpose of offering arbitration for them to decline.
QUOTING JOEMAN: “find it hard to believe you’ll see him (Mark Prior) pitching in the majors this year.”
————————————————————————————————-
Well, he hasn’t thrown a single pitch in the majors in FOUR YEARS, so he is due.
Of course, the Buffalo Bills are due to win a Super Bowl any day now, too.
Perhaps Brian Cashman should sign Sandy Koufax and Whitey Ford, too. After all, they “know how to pitch in the majors.”
OK LGY – keep on advocating doing nothing and defending Cashman and when we don’t make the World Series again we can have the same conversation.
Jerkface–
Not sure what the concern is with injury for Soriano…wasted money? That is why they have insurance. Doesn’t come out of Yankee pockets if he is injured.
If not injured, he closes out the game after 7 innings and spells Mo so he is freshed for play-offs. Also serves as closer in wating.
(Kei Igawa point was just that trhe money is not something that can’t be absorbed by the team if he flopped)…
Joe–
I am not so sure Cash would have signed Prior if the reports hadn’t been positive on his health and velocity. I do think he can make the team out of ST…just my opinion…but the reports are that he is healthy and his velocity is 92 +
# YankeesNmore January 3rd, 2011 at 6:33 pm
QUOTING JOEMAN: “find it hard to believe you’ll see him (Mark Prior) pitching in the majors this year.”
————————————————————————————————-
Well, he hasn’t thrown a single pitch in the majors in FOUR YEARS, so he is due.
Of course, the Buffalo Bills are due to win a Super Bowl any day now, too.
Perhaps Brian Cashman should sign Sandy Koufax and Whitey Ford, too. After all, they “know how to pitch in the majors.”
———————————————————————-
Bills …Prior…even bet
QUOTING WCYF: “OK LGY – keep on advocating doing nothing and defending Cashman and when we don’t make the World Series again we can have the same conversation.”
—————————————————————————————————–
Hey, don’t forget about all those sure-thing magic beans we have in the minors.
I mean seriously, if you can’t bank on guys who have a history of arm injuries and/or a mediocre half-season above A-ball under their belts, upon whom can you count?
# BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 6:35 pm
Jerkface–
Not sure what the concern is with injury for Soriano…wasted money? That is why they have insurance. Doesn’t come out of Yankee pockets if he is injured.
If not injured, he closes out the game after 7 innings and spells Mo so he is freshed for play-offs. Also serves as closer in wating.
(Kei Igawa point was just that trhe money is not something that can’t be absorbed by the team if he flopped)…
Joe–
I am not so sure Cash would have signed Prior if the reports hadn’t been positive on his health and velocity. I do think he can make the team out of ST…just my opinion…but the reports are that he is healthy and his velocity is 92 +
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for his sake I hope so but he’s been close a couple of times only to suffer setbacks..Yanks can sure use him
More important than whether Prior makes it or not is that I feel Girardi and Cashman will craft together a decent BP with what they have….they have shown that ability the past 3 years.
Prior is just1 more way it could happen that no one forsees.
QUOTING JOEMAN: “Bills …Prior…even bet”
——————————————————————————–
Assuming you’re talking about for THIS season only–one in which the Bills were officially eliminated weeks ago–I would tend to agree with you.
If you’re taking into consideration next year, the Bill would be a HEAVY favorite.
BP will be used often this year the way things stand now…….they have a few SP there that only get once around the order
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/200.....r-kennedy/
randy l. January 3rd, 2011 at 6:16 pm
randy l May 28th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
“Why is Cashman in trouble if Joba doesn’t live up to the hype?”
because he bet his job on his youth plan.
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SJ44 May 28th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Randy,
That’s a good point. I can’t fault him on Hughes and Kennedy. Its hard to believe those guys have stuggled so mightily.
If Joba bombs or God forbid, gets hurt, that’s the death knell for him
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Jerkface–
Not sure what the concern is with injury for Soriano…wasted money? That is why they have insurance. Doesn’t come out of Yankee pockets if he is injured.
–
Teams can eat money, but generally the yankees don’t. They passed Igawa through waivers and put him in scranton to try and build something out of him. It didn’t work, but his contract was still only 4 mil a year and now it doesnt account for any luxury tax purposes.
Soriano will count against the luxury tax, if he is signed to a 4 year deal the yankees will attempt to get 4 years out of him, it means that they will use him even if he is ineffective to try and recoup value and if he is injured he takes up a spot on the 40 man during the season or at times in the off-season when he has to be taken off the 60-day DL.
All the while signing him gives 2 picks to one of our chief rivals in the deepest draft in years.
Its just not worth it for a guy that is going to affect 5% of baseball innings.
# YankeesNmore January 3rd, 2011 at 6:40 pm
QUOTING JOEMAN: “Bills …Prior…even bet”
——————————————————————————–
Assuming you’re talking about for THIS season only–one in which the Bills were officially eliminated weeks ago–I would tend to agree with you.
If you’re taking into consideration next year, the Bill would be a HEAVY favorite.
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I thought they were still in the playoff hunt this year
Until 2 starting rotation holes are filled, the bullpen will need to be a strong point for the team. Rauch would be a help and Brackman could be a darkhorse candidate for the bullpen once he gets some time at AAA to refine his pitches.
Randy is the purpose of that to show that Cashman is in fact, invincible?
Bojo,
I don’t think that is how insurance works with baseball contracts. I think it may only be for career ending injuries, but I am not positive.
Either way, in Soriano’s case in particular insurance is probably cost prohibitive because of his extensive injury history.
If you’re a defender of Brian Cashman, or just somebody who hasn’t started trashing his sorry @$$ yet, consider what the Yankees have to show for the highest payroll in the game, with only six weeks to go til spring training:
1) ONE reliable starter.
2) A bullpen with no reliable setup man.
3) A fanbase debating how much a guy, who hasn’t thrown a single major league pitch in FOUR YEARS, is going to contribute to the cause.
“OK LGY – keep on advocating doing nothing and defending Cashman and when we don’t make the World Series again we can have the same conversation.”
———————–
If the Yankees don’t make the WS, Cashman failed?
I loved Cashman’s offseason last year mainly because of Vazquez, but that move in particular didn’t work out and probably hurt more than helped. If they had just gone with Joba or Nova in the rotation over Vaz, they likely would have been better off in 2010.
Making moves does not always improve the team and Cashman should not just make moves for the sake of doing so.
Well, correction.
Vazquez DID hurt more than help. He was a below replacement level pitcher.
32 days until pitchers & catchers report to Tampa.
270 days until Igawa’s contract is off the books.
Most well rounded offense in the majors, great defense, a bullpen full of battle tested relievers, 1 ace, 1 strong #2, and a guy who only needs to return closer to his career numbers to be a solid #3.
Seems like cash is doing fine.
Joe from Long Island -
I am silently cursing Big Al for linking to the Q5. I was happy in my ignorance, blithely crossing it off my short list because of the cost.
But he opened the conversation with my husband, and it turned out he and I have both always wanted an Audi (though it’s never been a serious consideration). So we looked. Gulp.
It’s a great vehicle.
It gets fantastic reviews.
It’s a little more than we had wanted to spend.
We have to order one because they were literally sold out, and it will take 2 months to get it if we decide to order it.
Part of me feels like this might be the last opportunity we have to really indulge ourselves, and we can do so with a 3 and a half year lease. And part of me, the part that usually wins, is telling me to be more practical and financially conservative.
I’ll let you know what we decide.
make that 42 days until pitchers & catchers report to Tampa.
LGY–
No, insurance pays for time on DL.
Jerkface–
2 picks? I don’t think so. I believe an A only forfeits 1 pick. What is your source for that?
Also, Soriano has proven to be very durable the past 2 years and seems to be over his early career arm troubles…just like AJ Burnett. My point is that the Yankees can afford to eat the contract if a mistake…and it gives them huge flexibility to move around their staff–such as Joba to SP.
LGY–
The difference for insurance is that insurers (since 2002) have limited the coverage from length of contract to typically 2 to 3 years.
“Randy is the purpose of that to show that Cashman is in fact, invincible? ”
jerkface-
i’m just pointing out that almost two years ago , someone as astute as sj44 recognized that cashman had to come through with joba or else his job would be in jeopardy.
tonight people are still debating and questioning how cashman is using joba. at some point, cashman needs to be accountable.
he’s been in charge for almost 5 years now and the “wait till the next batch thats in the minors comes” is getting old.
as an aside, anyone who wants to listen to what this blog used to be like with sj44 and CB having 100 posts between them, take a look back.
one of the highlights was the discussion of it being a transition year back then with so much money coming off the books for 2009. ironically CB took the position that neither sabathia or teixeira was a franchise player.
http://sports-law.blogspot.com.....l-and.html
# Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 6:49 pm
Most well rounded offense in the majors, great defense, a bullpen full of battle tested relievers, 1 ace, 1 strong #2, and a guy who only needs to return closer to his career numbers to be a solid #3.
Seems like cash is doing fine.
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I’m a AJ fan……and he doesn’t pitch well and Andy stays home this team will have a problem making the playoffs
Bojo,
Do you have a link about the insurance?
almost three years ago that is.
Bojo,
Thanks for the link.
I do know though that insurance for athletes has changed a lot in recent years and has gotten a lot more expensive.
With Soriano, I doubt it would even be worth the cost because of how expensive coverage on him would be.
Randy—
Not sure if I understand your point. I think winning a WC gives Cashman a lot of cred with his owners, and buys him time whether the Joba experiment succeeds or fails.
“It’s a great vehicle.
It gets fantastic reviews.
It’s a little more than we had wanted to spend.”
doreen-
you have to decide if it’s a franchise player that deserves the big, long contract or if it’s just a supporting player masquerading as a franchise player.
I wouldn’t say Cashman failed last year.
The thinking behind the moves he made was sound. That they didn’t turn out to be good moves is largely unpredictable. Sure, you could predict that Nick Johnson would be on the DL for a period of time during the season – I seriously doubt anyone would have predicted he would spend virtually the entire season on the DL. Javy Vazquez’ claim to fame was his ability to be an innings eater (something Randy l especially likes) and he wasn’t able to do that last season. He was not expected to be an ace or a stopper, merely a reliable 4th or 5th starter. I don’t think anyone would have anticipated the extent of his shortcomings.
Granderson self-corrected in the last third of the season and more than met expectations during the playoffs. I would love to know how his season might have progressed had he not gotten the early injury. He did get off to an pretty good start.
And even with all the disappointments, the team got to within 2 wins of the WS. Not a horrible year. Forgive me, but I can’t get down on the 2010 team.
Every move a GM makes carries some risk.
And players are human and sometimes things happen. Some things are more predictable than others, but even within that predictability there is a range of impact.
Regardless of where Type A free agents sign, their teams obtain a supplementary round pick in the following year’s draft (plus a pick from the team that signed the player).
randy l –
AARRRGGHH!!!!
Also, Soriano has proven to be very durable the past 2 years and seems to be over his early career arm troubles…just like AJ Burnett. My point is that the Yankees can afford to eat the contract if a mistake…and it gives them huge flexibility to move around their staff–such as Joba to SP.
–
He is two seasons removed from throwing 15 innings. And AJ was a huge injury gamble as well. Not to mention he threw more innings in 1 season for toronto than Soriano threw in 4 years.
LGY and Jerkface–
I respect your opinions greatly and think you are both 2 of the most knowledgeable and interesting posters on this blog, so I want to make sure I make my point clearly about Soriano to resolve this difference of opinion.
I understand that Soriano may be expensive, and also expensive to cover with insurance…BUT
1) There are very few other options for EIG that won”t require at least 3 years and $7M per year.
2) Aside from Soria–who would be very expensive interms of talent–there is nothing on the market thatimpresses me for the role
3) I am not comfortable with Joba or Robertson in that role
4) Soriano’s final contract price may come down to 3 years and $10M per since there are no other teams knocking his door down
5) At 3/$30M, the Yankees can get insurance coverage to shield themselves from injury, and have the upside of a solid closer in the EIG role…also spelling Mo to keep him fresh
6) A solid EIG has a huge impact on the overall effectiveness of the staff, as we saw with Wood last year.
7) I beleive we only give up 1 draft pick (27th or so) for signing him
Given the opportunity to lock down the bullpen from the start of the season. I would go for it. Early season wins from a strong pen lead to late season success.
randy l -
Funny you should mention CB and SJ44. During this conversation I’ve certainly missed their input.
Doreen,
I can tell you being a good number of years your senior that you can’t be conservative enough. What seems like a fortune, and careful planning, goes very quickly once your reach retirement. I would love to get an Audi, but I can’t imagine what the lease cost must be. In the last several months we have needed a new furnace in NY, the chimney redone. Here we also new a new a/c-heating unit. These were not planned for expenses. The children remain the children regardless of age…so I got a Honda here where the roads are much better. We’ll see what I replace my NY car with. My husband’s lease is also up this summer.
Jerkface–a supplementary pick does not cost the Yankees anything.
Chad,
It is certainly nice to have you back. You were sorely missed. Happy New Year again.
3) I am not comfortable with Joba or Robertson in that role
6) A solid EIG has a huge impact on the overall effectiveness of the staff, as we saw with Wood last year.
7) I beleive we only give up 1 draft pick (27th or so) for signing him
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Ok kind of done with this topic so I will just address these, because I agree that Soriano is a good reliever in a vacuum. I disagree with #3 but thats your opinion and its fine, if you were the GM you’d get backup and if I were the GM I’d only get back up if the cost was right.
)
#6 I disagree. 2008 we did not have any named EIG and the bullpen was a real asset. You can find good relievers. Any pitcher can become a good reliever simply because of the luck involved in such short limited outings and small samples. Joaquin Benoit was garbage for years and now has a 3 year deal off of 60 innings. Find me the next Benoit, not Soriano. Any starter can be turned into a reliever and any reliever can bounce back with a huge year. Its why you shouldn’t invest a lot of money in them. Fangraphs showed how in the past 2 years nearly every long term deal for a reliever did not work out (except Mo of course
#7 we only give up 1 pick but the Rays get 2 picks total. I dont like beefing up a direct opponent.
LGY January 3rd, 2011 at 6:48 pm
“…..I loved Cashman’s offseason last year mainly because of Vazquez, but that move in particular didn’t work out and probably hurt more than helped”.
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Loved Cashman’s off-season last year? Really? Chan Ho Park? Randy Winn? Nick Johnson?
Sign Johnny Damon!!!!!
The Rays are going to get those picks irregardless of where he signs…so I would prefer that they get a low 1st round from the Yankees…
I agree with your second point for the most part, but feel that Soriano is also an exception. I could be wrong…and perhaps Joba will bounce back and fill that role…or Brackman can come up and do the job…But I would prefer to get Soriano and move Joba to SP. If Joba weren’t going to moved as a result, I would pass on Soriano.
Sounds like AP is all but retired:
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s.....son-010311
The thought behind the moves was solid.
There’s risk.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.
Cashman rolled the dice and this time he missed much more than he hit, but he didn’t make bonehead moves to begin with.
MHO.
Actually Jerkface–If signing Soriano allowed the Yankees to move Joba to SP and give him a second chance, I would not care if Soriano blew out his arm in August and had to retire. To me, the move allows us to see whether or not Joba is what some of us think he can be…and that is worth the money IMO.
Anybody who “loved Cashman’s offseason last year,” especially when basing their feelings on Javier Crapzquez, is somebody who paid no attention when Crapzquez rolled through here the first time.
It would be like loving an offseason in the early 2000′s because the Yankees re-re-acquired Kenny Rogers after he had a good year in Texas.
Those who are ignorant of or do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
NOBODY should have been surprised that Nick Johnson couldn’t stay healthy, and Javier Crapzquez $#!tting his pants was ENTIRELY predictable, and predicted by most who have followed this team for more than a few years.
“Loved Cashman’s off-season last year? Really? Chan Ho Park? Randy Winn? Nick Johnson?”
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Absolutely. ST last year I thought Cash had a great offseason.
I preferred Damon as the DH, but it is not the Yankees fault he turned them down despite offering the most money. However, the NJ signing had a ton of potential. Putting a .400+ OBP guy in front of Tex, Alex, and Robbie. That would have been huge. I preferred Damon, but I was/am a big Nick Johnson fan and loved the idea of putting such a high on base guy in front of 3 players who hit so many HRs. I figured DHing would keep him healthy, probably not completely healthy for the whole season, but I didn’t think he would literally miss the whole season. I was also ok with NJ missing some time if it came to that, because the Yankees had guys like Alex and Jorge to shift over there to get some rest if NJ missed some time.
Chan-Ho Park really liked that signing. He was great in relief for the Phillies. Really a completely different pitcher once he shifted to the bullpen. It was only for $1.5 million so there was literally no downside to the move. The move had a ton of upside based on how Park pitched for the Phillies in relief, and no downside because the contract was so small. What did the Yankees lose signing Park?
Randy Winn? He was a 4th OF and could play all three positions. Who really cares about a 4th OF? There weren’t really any better options anyway.
Oh and of course Vazquez, but already basically posted about him.
Acquiring Vazquez made the Yankees look like they had an absolutely dynamite rotation and at worst if he regressed from 2009 he would give them one of the elite innings eaters and strikeout pitchers this decade.
Anyone who pretends to be able to judge Cashman for his 2009 performance after the fact–please provide links showing your disapproval at the time. Otherwise, you might as well go try to collect on lotto winnings by claiming you knew what the numbers were going ot be…and let us know when you find a lotto commission willing to accept that argument too.
The Rays are going to get those picks irregardless of where he signs…so I would prefer that they get a low 1st round from the Yankees…
–
Well they may end up getting picks eventually (we’ll see) but I’d rather the Yankees keep theres. That way at least the Yankees get to pick a player in the first round.
Instead of having the Rays torch them with all these extra picks. And if a bottom 15 team signs soriano looking to beef up their rotation then they just get a 2nd rounder.
Doreen -
Sorry I opened that door- Just trying to help, but, it is quite a car, yes!
Last point I will make on Soriano–
Is $30M for 3 years too much (or even $40M) if the Soriano signing is tied to moving Joba to SP to see if he cna be effective?
Consider that Red Sox paid Japanese team $50M just for the rights to sign Dice K and see whther he could be effective.
Or that teams next year will probably have to bid $40M or so to get rights to sign Yu Darvish.
My interest in signing Soriano is slely based on giving the Yankees the chance to see what Joba really has. If he flops, they can finally end the experiment and move on. If he suceeds, the Yankees gain immense value from developing a young stud under control and at cheap terms for anouther 2 years or so….
Anything Soriano gives them above that is pure gravy IMO.
That is why I would do the deal.
BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 7:25 pm
Anyone who pretends to be able to judge Cashman for his 2009 performance after the fact–please provide links showing your disapproval at the time. Otherwise, you might as well go try to collect on lotto winnings by claiming you knew what the numbers were going ot be…and let us know when you find a lotto commission willing to accept that argument too.
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Bojo – This is not about predicting what was going to happen. It is about evaluating whether or not Cashman’s moves last off-season were good ones. By any empirical means of measurement they were not.
When you are in charge you take responsibility for your decisions; at least I believe that is how it should work. And by the way, Cashman did, he was quoted saying as much.
“I didn’t have a great winter last year”.
Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 7:30 pm
Well they may end up getting picks eventually (we’ll see) but I’d rather the Yankees keep theres. That way at least the Yankees get to pick a player in the first round.
Instead of having the Rays torch them with all these extra picks. And if a bottom 15 team signs soriano looking to beef up their rotation then they just get a 2nd rounder.
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Not sure I understand.
We are in agreement that Yankees only lose 1 pick, right? The Supplemental pick comes from a general pool and not from the Yankees.
And what bottom 15 team pick is going to sign him at the money he is seeking if they are not ready to contend? Plus the Rays still get 2 picks.
Again, the possibility of converting Joba to an effective starting pitcher is worth more to me than any picks Rays will get. They still have a limited budget to sign players, so they are not going to pay over market like the Yankees do in order to sign high ceiling guys. So I am not as worried about the 27th or so pick and a supplemental pick becoming a franchise player that will haunt the Yankees.
West Coast Yankee Fan January 3rd, 2011 at 7:36 pm
BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 7:25 pm
Anyone who pretends to be able to judge Cashman for his 2009 performance after the fact–please provide links showing your disapproval at the time. Otherwise, you might as well go try to collect on lotto winnings by claiming you knew what the numbers were going ot be…and let us know when you find a lotto commission willing to accept that argument too.
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Bojo – This is not about predicting what was going to happen. It is about evaluating whether or not Cashman’s moves last off-season were good ones. By any empirical means of measurement they were not.
When you are in charge you take responsibility for your decisions; at least I believe that is how it should work. And by the way, Cashman did, he was quoted saying as much.
“I didn’t have a great winter last year”.
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Not turning out well != not making correct decisions given information on hand at the time.
When you are in charge you take responsibility for your decisions; at least I believe that is how it should work. And by the way, Cashman did, he was quoted saying as much.
“I didn’t have a great winter last year”.
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Why are you judging 2009 offseason in hindsight, but this season right now? Not really honest to do it that way, unless you are willing to wait a year to judge this offseason (which you clearly have shown you are not)
What do you expect Cashman to say? He is not going to come out and speak positively about the moves he made last winter given how it turned out.
This conversation started without hindsight since I said I loved the offseason in ST of last year.
WCYF–
To your point, then he had a great 2008 season that gives him credability with the owners, and a pretty good 2009 season (since he was within 2 games of WS). By your standards, he has done very well compared to other GMs.
“Funny you should mention CB and SJ44. During this conversation I’ve certainly missed their input.”
doreen-
i enjoy going back and watching the “reruns”.
no one is ever right all the time , but when you read CBand SJ44 discussing something back then there is a baseball IQ there that we don’t see that much anymore .
some new people think these discussions are something new. joba discussions about his use were raging three years ago.
i do find cashman’s decision making curious. had he stuck to his develop from within plan , he’d have kennedy and coke to add to the rotation is he needed to and jackson in centerfield. i understand the logic of getting a proven young player in granderson , but i’d trade granderson for kennedy, coke, and jackson right now in a heartbeat.
i’m starting to think that cashman has trouble sticking to a plan even if it’s his own. he scares me with montero in this regard. i don’t want him traded period.
anyway, looking back at the blog is enjoyable and is gives some perspective on what the situation is now and the how the decisions 2-3 years ago got the yankees where they are right now.
Coke was not going to go into the Yankee rotation, he didn’t even start above AA for crying out loud and now you think its an option when all you whine about is development and innings above AAA.
If Cashman put Phil Coke in the rotation I would start sounding a lot like randy in my dislike for Cash.
Big Al -
I was joking about the silent cursing.
Hey, you got me to try out an Audi!
BoJo my point about Soriano is that if the Rays are going to get picks, I’d rather the Yankees still have theirs in the end. And there is a strong chance Soriano gets blackballed by smarter teams who dont want to lose draft picks and not signed, or signed by a team which has already signed Type-As and the draft pick gain by the Rays will be diminished while the Yankees will still hold onto theirs.
End result is I want the Yankees to have their picks. I don’t care if the Rays get picks elsewhere, I care if they get picks and the Yankees have no picks. If they had signed Lee, then sure go hog wild on Soriano it’ll only cost a 2nd and the first is gone already. They didn’t, so we have that pick.
Writing in the dark and getting a lot of Typos now. Argh.
randy l -
I wouldn’t want Coke or Jackson back. IPK, a strong perhaps.
I don’t think Coke would ever have been more than he was for the Yankees, though he was good at what he was doing. Jackson was beginning to show some cracks in his development the season before he was traded – now whether that had to do with trying to hit more for power or what, I don’t pretend to know. But I think when you have the opportunity to trade for an established, quality player/person such as Curtis Granderson, you go for it.
IPK was coming back strong. And I don’t know (no one does) if he for sure would have been a good fit ultimately for the Yankees, but i would have liked to see him get another opportunity. But that’s part of baseball.
Jerkface–You keep saying their picks…we are talking about one Yankee pick (27th or so), and not 2 that they lose. Right?
And even is a deep pool, the 27th pick for the Yankees versus that same pick for the Rays will be 2 different players since they Rays won’t pay over slot like the Yankees will. Right?
And the Yankees still have a supp pick for Javy where they can pay over slot for probably the same player they would pick at 27…
So I don’t see this as an issue at all.
Again–if signing Soriano allows team to put Joba in SP, I think the move is a brilliant move that allows them to perhaps get Joba back on track and gain a potential ace.
Soriano is the only reliever that will afford them that opportunity IMO.
BoJo, keeping the pick in the first round is important not just because of the Rays. More teams are going overslot and good talent is no longer falling down to the Yankees so easily. Texas, Detroit, the Mets now, Red Sox, Blue Jays.
These teams are going to be taking quality players off the board.
I don’t know how this can be confusing. If the Yankees sign Soriano they lose their first round pick and the rays get a second pick from nowhere in the sammich round. You know this. My point is, I want the Yankees to keep their pick regardless of what happens with Soriano because the draft is great and we need picks in the first round to keep up with all these teams that are throwing money around.
I don’t think the money, years, and pick are worth the marginal return Soriano offers over any other reliever.
Yankees tentative spring training schedule
LGY January 3rd, 2011 at 7:42 pm
Why are you judging 2009 off-season in hindsight, but this season right now? Not really honest to do it that way, unless you are willing to wait a year to judge this offseason (which you clearly have shown you are not)
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That is just not true. I have said numerous times in my posts that the off-season is not over and that I hope Cashman will make substantive moves to improve this team. I’m not a gratuitous Cashman basher, I just don’t think he is a great GM.
Jerkface–
At least now I understand your point better. You are saying it is 1 pick, but that competition for over slot players is getting tougher. Fine.
What value would you place on picking up a strong EIG so that Joba can be allowed another opportunity as a SP? To me, that is the big deal, and is worht more than signing an over slot 1st rounder.
West Coast Yankee Fan January 3rd, 2011 at 8:11 pm
LGY January 3rd, 2011 at 7:42 pm
Why are you judging 2009 off-season in hindsight, but this season right now? Not really honest to do it that way, unless you are willing to wait a year to judge this offseason (which you clearly have shown you are not)
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That is just not true. I have said numerous times in my posts that the off-season is not over and that I hope Cashman will make substantive moves to improve this team. I’m not a gratuitous Cashman basher, I just don’t think he is a great GM.
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So what IS your point?
That Cashman didn’t win it all in 2010? we kind of know that.
That he sucks as a GM? Based on what? Winning in 2009, turning around the team’s approach to player development that has yielded a top 6 minor league system? Coming within 2 games of the WS last year?\
Exactly what standard are you comparing him to? Nostradamus?
If one were to generically define each of Cashman’s past moves, I think we would all sign up for them again.
Examples–
1. Acquiring a Cy Young candidate with a history or innings eaten and low era for a 4th OFer with a bad attitude that may have been non-tendered, and some prospects? Sign me up.
2. Passing on signing a 2 year deal way over market for an aging OFer who no longer can field, blocks the development of an internal prospect with great potential, and who will have limited playing time because of the changing nature of the DH position? Great move!
3. Signing a 400 OPS player to play DH at $5M for a 1 year deal–low risk/high reward. Great move!! Pegged the DH market perfectly.
4. Trading an ineffective LHRP, a SP prospect who may not have fared well in AL East, and an OF prospect with limited power for an All Star CFer with a perfect left hand power stroke for the stadium? Sign me up!!
5. Even the Pavano and Randy Johnson deals would have looked great if defined generically, and most of us would have signed up for them as well.
However, no one is Nostradamus, and no one can predict how the trades work out. You just go with what you know at the time and take a shot to make the club better.
The key in evaluation to me is making sure you have enough depth planned for to compensate if the moves don’t work out…and yes, Cashman has done that–unlike other GMs like Minaya or Eppy.
So I have to say he may not be Nostradamus, but he is doing fine.