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Time for a decision from Pettitte

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 03, 2011 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

It seems to be time for Andy Pettitte to make a decision.

It’s been two months since the Yankees postseason run came to an end. It’s not especially surprising that it’s taken him this long to mull retirement, but at this point a lot of pitchers — non-Rivera category — will start throwing to get themselves ready for spring training. What Pettitte does in the next few weeks will depend entirely what he decides to do the next few months. For his own well-being, it’s hard to hesitate much longer.

For the Yankees, their roster situation changes significantly depending on Pettitte. Their lineup and bullpen is basically the exact same today as it was this time last year. The difference is in the rotation, and a Yankees source has told Wally Matthews that they expect a decision in the next few days (though, we’ve heard that before).

With Pettitte, there’s no reason to panic. Essentially, the Yankees would have Ivan Nova to replace Javier Vazquez, and that would give them a legitimate starting five to carry into Opening Day. They’d want to add some depth and might be able to find one or two upgrades, but a Yankees roster with Pettitte is viable. It would actually be very close to last year’s roster.

Without Pettitte, there’s an obvious need for pitching help, and the Yankees might have to get creative to find pieces that fit.

Associated Press photo

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174 Responses to “Time for a decision from Pettitte”

  1. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 1:29 pm

    When Andy officially announces he’s not coming back I think you’ll see Cashman move quickly on deals with either Freddy Garcia or Jeff Francis or both.

    I could also see a trade for a low end starter:

    Royals get: Colin Curtis, Ramiro Pena, Sergio Mitre and a low level minor leaguer with some upside – Abe Almonte maybe

    Yankees get: Kyle Davies, Robinson Tejada and Alex Gordon or Mike Aviles

  2. RS January 3rd, 2011 at 1:29 pm

    As soon as I saw this thread, I remembered that I had a dream last night that Pettitte retired :( At least there’s still some hope left

  3. Rich in NJ January 3rd, 2011 at 1:29 pm

    I wouldn’t be surprised if Andy retired and later unretired.

    I also wonder if the media circus that could result from his testimony in a trial of Clemens is impacting his decision.

    If it is, I think playing could be a useful diversion for him.

  4. MoRings42 January 3rd, 2011 at 1:31 pm

    without Pettitte, they’re done.

  5. Mell January 3rd, 2011 at 1:32 pm

    “Royals get: Colin Curtis, Ramiro Pena, Sergio Mitre and a low level minor leaguer with some upside – Abe Almonte maybe

    Yankees get: Kyle Davies, Robinson Tejada and Alex Gordon or Mike Aviles”

    Chip, the Royals might accept crap for Davies, but not the other guys.

  6. ZMAN January 3rd, 2011 at 1:33 pm

    BobKlap
    #Yankees are prepared for Pettitte to tell them he’s retiring, saying “everything” points that way. Decision should come this week.

    ————–

    At least the waiting will come to an end one way or another.

  7. upstate kate January 3rd, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    an unnamed source has zero credibility IMO…anyone could speculate the same thing

  8. Mell January 3rd, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    “I wouldn’t be surprised if Andy retired and later unretired”

    Doesn’t seem the type (read: self involved, attention craving, a-hole) for that, IMO. I think if he says he’s done, he’s done.

  9. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 1:35 pm

    Mell January 3rd, 2011 at 1:32 pm
    “Royals get: Colin Curtis, Ramiro Pena, Sergio Mitre and a low level minor leaguer with some upside – Abe Almonte maybe

    Yankees get: Kyle Davies, Robinson Tejada and Alex Gordon or Mike Aviles”

    Chip, the Royals might accept crap for Davies, but not the other guys.

    —————-

    Mell – how about swap out Mitre and the minor leaguer with Joba. Alex Gordon is essentially their Joba Chamberlain at this point anyway.

  10. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 1:36 pm

    upstate kate January 3rd, 2011 at 1:34 pm
    an unnamed source has zero credibility IMO…anyone could speculate the same thing

    —————

    People who work for ESPN by and large have zero credibility IMNSHO

  11. Patrick January 3rd, 2011 at 1:37 pm

    Freddy Garcia and Jeff Francis will never survive in the AL east.. no thanks

  12. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 1:38 pm

    Patrick January 3rd, 2011 at 1:37 pm
    Freddy Garcia and Jeff Francis will never survive in the AL east.. no thanks

    ——————–

    You have no idea if that’s true anymore than you know for certain that Ivan Nova and David Phelps will pitch well enough to be acceptable major leaguers.

    At least we know that Francis and Garcia can do that much.

  13. upstate kate January 3rd, 2011 at 1:40 pm

    Chip
    I had to think about “IMNSHO” for a minute!

  14. Carlo January 3rd, 2011 at 1:40 pm

    Wait – I swore Cashman was proceeding with Plan B since the Lee decision and he was proceeding as though Andy was done…….so now suddenly they are waiting for Andy to decide at which point they may have to get creative? Comical.

  15. ZMAN January 3rd, 2011 at 1:40 pm

    “an unnamed source has zero credibility IMO…anyone could speculate the same thing”

    But in this case, their speculation matches what Yankees people have already said on the record. Cashman, Levine, and Teixeira have all said he is leaning towards retirement.

  16. Mell January 3rd, 2011 at 1:42 pm

    “Freddy Garcia and Jeff Francis will never survive in the AL east”

    Probably not. Especially Francis. Very hittable. Guy doesn’t miss bats and doesn’t give you innings.

  17. upstate kate January 3rd, 2011 at 1:42 pm

    ZMAN
    its not the “leaning towards retirement” that I take issue with, that could very well be true. It is the thought that the Yankees are not making any decisions until Andy decides…I find that to be unrealistic.

  18. Carlo January 3rd, 2011 at 1:43 pm

    Are there people on here who have honestly convinced themselves that this is a playoff team should Mitre/Nova/Phelps/Noesi round out the 4/5 spots in the rotation? If there are, please identify yourselves.

  19. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 1:44 pm

    Patrick January 3rd, 2011 at 1:37 pm
    Freddy Garcia and Jeff Francis will never survive in the AL east.. no thanks

    ———————

    Besides, you’re not looking for an ACE – just a guy who can eat some innings if the kids aren’t quite done developing in the minors.

    If the Yankees were looking to fill one spot, then I agree with Chad that there’s no reason to bring in another player – but for two spots, I would want a veteran safety net.

  20. filthy slider January 3rd, 2011 at 1:45 pm

    Maybe Spiderman should get off his rear end & go to Texas to massage Andy & bring the Steinbrenner checkbook. I’m sure he could treat Andy just a little like he did with Lee. The reason Andy is taking so long is because Spiderman is trying to get him on the cheap. Isn’t it time to get rid of thjis guy. He has a record of one failed trade after another, the guy has zero ability to judge the secondary talent market. Time to say goodbye, just think,you’ll have lots of free time to repel down buildings.

  21. Against All Odds January 3rd, 2011 at 1:46 pm

    # upstate kate January 3rd, 2011 at 1:42 pm

    ZMAN
    its not the “leaning towards retirement” that I take issue with, that could very well be true. It is the thought that the Yankees are not making any decisions until Andy decides…I find that to be unrealistic.
    ———————————————————

    At this point we shouldn’t be surprised. They were at a standstill until Lee made his decision.

  22. Mell January 3rd, 2011 at 1:47 pm

    “Mell – how about swap out Mitre and the minor leaguer with Joba. Alex Gordon is essentially their Joba Chamberlain at this point anyway.”

    I don’t see why they’d look to move Tejeda or Aviles either way right now either way. As for Davies, I guess my biggest objection to him is that he really stinks.

  23. LGY January 3rd, 2011 at 1:48 pm

    Are there people on here who have honestly convinced themselves that this is a playoff team should Mitre/Nova/Phelps/Noesi round out the 4/5 spots in the rotation? If there are, please identify yourselves

    ******

    Identified

  24. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    Kate -

    well I’m glad you figured it out.

  25. Patrick January 3rd, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    I’d rather take my chances with Nova/Phelps/Noesi than Garcia/Francis…

  26. DaSaint007 January 3rd, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    Carlo,

    We’ve been to the playoffs with worse. And frankly, we only need 4 starters max for the playoffs, and God forbid, should CC, Hughes, and AJ have stellar seasons, may even get away with 3. Longshot, but not impossible.

  27. yanks 27 January 3rd, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    That ESPN quote isin’t that hard to believe, IMO.

    Things change significantly if Andy comes back vs. if he doesn’t. It is only logical for them to wait and see for sure whether or not Andy is coming back before they proceed with the less desirable alternatives. They don’t need a Jeff Francis, Garcia, etc. if Andy comes back.

    Similarly, this isin’t even the first time this offseason where they put all their eggs in one basket so it shouldn’t be surprising even if they did in this instance as well.

  28. Carlo January 3rd, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    # LGY January 3rd, 2011 at 1:48 pm

    Are there people on here who have honestly convinced themselves that this is a playoff team should Mitre/Nova/Phelps/Noesi round out the 4/5 spots in the rotation? If there are, please identify yourselves

    ******

    Identified
    ——————

    Mega Millions is at $290 mm….you should buy a ticket since you would probably peg yourself as the pre draw favorite to win it.

  29. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 1:50 pm

    Mell –

    I agree that Davies isn’t the answer to all my hopes and dreams. But again, I just don’t trust two kids right out of ST to handle the job.

    The Yankees tried it with two kids who were much better than any of the pitchers they’re talking about this time around in Hughes and Kennedy and it failed miserably. Give me a veteran arm that can at least handle the spot for the first half of the season and work the kids in slowly.

  30. West Coast Yankee Fan January 3rd, 2011 at 1:50 pm

    If anyone wants to buy into the corporate Yankee spin, that’s their right. I have a different opinion. I don’t think this has been a good off-season for Cashman “so far” and last year was pretty abysmal as well. As to process, I do not believe in waiting for others to make decisions that effect your future. I would have given Lee and Pettitte deadlines and stuck to them Maybe I will be wrong, I often am, it’s all opinion and speculation.

  31. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 1:52 pm

    Patrick and LGY -

    Yankees tried going with two rookies in the rotation in 2008 with Hughes and Kennedy. Both of whom were much better prospects than Nova, Noesi, Phelps etc…

    Failed miserably.

    I don’t see them going that route again. They will let these guys earn spots but they are going to have to truly earn them, not just be the best prospect at the time camp breaks but show for at least a month or two in the minors that they can get it done.

  32. LGY January 3rd, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    Mega Millions is at $290 mm….you should buy a ticket since you would probably peg yourself as the pre draw favorite to win it

    ****

    Who is making the playoffs ahead of the Yankees?

  33. BTX January 3rd, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    “I’d rather take my chances with Nova/Phelps/Noesi than Garcia/Francis…”

    same here…

    Francis stinks… 4.77 career ERA in the NL. Never once had an ERA under 4. Doesn’t strike guys out. Below average vs. RH hitters (.288 BAA/1.50 WHIP for his career, .290 BAA the last 3 years).

    Garcia is OK but is a shell of his former self. Would get worse coming to the AL East too, throws 88 MPH slop now.

  34. Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 1:56 pm

    There is no such thing as a “veteran safety net”. Pitchers are extremely variable.

    There is absolutely no reason not to give Joba another chance to start. None. He had a bad two months as a starter, that’s it. To move on would be absurd. If the Yanks do move on, which they shouldn’t, they should trade him.

    There’s no reason to believe a mix of Joba, Nova, Mitre, Phelps, Mitchell, Noesi and Brackman couldn’t give a combined 4.30 (approximately) ERA if used properly. That would be fine from the 4 and 5 spots.

    Barring a miracle deal by Cashman it’s the best option at this point. And, 1 or 2 could emerge with a big upside.

  35. Patrick January 3rd, 2011 at 1:56 pm

    Chip,

    Yeah it did fail miserably and I wish they didn’t have to do it again but missing out on Cliff Lee and Andy retiring leaves them in a bad spot. The simple fact is, the young guys have more upside and are healthier than the pitchers off the scrap heap. Plus they cost less money.

    I don’t really want Nova/Phelps/Noesi in the rotation but if you give me a choice between those guys and guys like Garcia and Francis, I’m picking the former with zero hesitation.

    Now the reality is, the Yanks don’t just have two choices. They could very easily sign Carl Pavano or move Joba to the rotation. Both moves would improve the team and I’m sort of confused as to why Cashman isn’t looking in to either.

  36. 108 stitches January 3rd, 2011 at 1:56 pm

    If Andy’s decision is to retire, quickly pull the trigger on Wandy Rodriquez and Jeff Keppinger from Houston for Chamberlain and either Russo or Curtis.
    Follow it up by signing RH Jon Rauch for the bullpen.
    The money saved from Lee and Pettitte still leaves something near $30M for future use.

  37. LGY January 3rd, 2011 at 1:57 pm

    Chip

    I said before I would sign Francis, but I still think they make the playoffs without him.

    Anyway, the hitting was the main problem in 2008, not the pitching.

    The pitching wasn’t actually that bad.

  38. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 1:57 pm

    West Coast Yankee Fan January 3rd, 2011 at 1:50 pm
    If anyone wants to buy into the corporate Yankee spin, that’s their right. I have a different opinion. I don’t think this has been a good off-season for Cashman “so far” and last year was pretty abysmal as well. As to process, I do not believe in waiting for others to make decisions that effect your future. I would have given Lee and Pettitte deadlines and stuck to them Maybe I will be wrong, I often am, it’s all opinion and speculation.

    ——————

    You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but as I said before – I don’t think Cashman has been inert this offseason.

    He brought back the guys he wanted to bring back
    Got a LHRP and a catcher
    added a few other pieces via Rule 5 to at least get a look at during spring training

    The guys who have come off the board haven’t been ones he saw a fit for or had only minimal interest in

    What’s the point in giving a guy a deadline? If Cashman had said to Andy, “after Christmas we’re not interested” looking at what’s available if Andy came back today and said, “I would like to pitch another year” do you think Cashman says “no, we’re all set.” Of course he doesn’t.

    All giving a deadline does when you have such poor other options is make you look silly. Cash is still wiping bits of egg from his face from when he declared that the Yankees would not negotiate with Alex after he opted out only to be overruled from on-high.

    In other words – you don’t make statements like that in public unless you can be sure you’re going to back them up.

  39. Mell January 3rd, 2011 at 1:59 pm

    “Yankees tried going with two rookies in the rotation in 2008 with Hughes and Kennedy. Both of whom were much better prospects than Nova, Noesi, Phelps etc…

    Failed miserably”

    It did fail miserably, but there was no Sabathia-type innings horse leading the rotation nor was there a 25 year old all star backing that innings horse up. Big difference.

  40. heyman_sux January 3rd, 2011 at 1:59 pm

    Are there people on here who have honestly convinced themselves that this is a playoff team should Mitre/Nova/Phelps/Noesi round out the 4/5 spots in the rotation? If there are, please identify yourselves
    ____

    Also, identified

  41. yanks 27 January 3rd, 2011 at 2:01 pm

    “There is absolutely no reason not to give Joba another chance to start. None. He had a bad two months as a starter, that’s it. To move on would be absurd. If the Yanks do move on, which they shouldn’t, they should trade him.”

    Couldn’t agree more. At this point, what’s the downside? The pen AND rotation are works in progress. Might as well give everyone a clean slate and let them battle in ST. It’s far from ideal, but they should try and give themselves as many options as possible.

  42. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 2:01 pm

    Patrick January 3rd, 2011 at 1:56 pm
    Chip,

    Yeah it did fail miserably and I wish they didn’t have to do it again but missing out on Cliff Lee and Andy retiring leaves them in a bad spot. The simple fact is, the young guys have more upside and are healthier than the pitchers off the scrap heap. Plus they cost less money.

    I don’t really want Nova/Phelps/Noesi in the rotation but if you give me a choice between those guys and guys like Garcia and Francis, I’m picking the former with zero hesitation.

    Now the reality is, the Yanks don’t just have two choices. They could very easily sign Carl Pavano or move Joba to the rotation. Both moves would improve the team and I’m sort of confused as to why Cashman isn’t looking in to either.

    ———————————

    1. Patrick – I like you, I really do. But if you suggest signing Carl Pavano one more time I’m going to track you down and slap you around with a dead salmon :-)

    2. Joba’s not going to the rotation. I would like to see it happen too if Joba was willing to work for it. But I don’t see it.

    3. Yankees have plenty of money to spend so 3-5 mil on a Freddy Garcia isn’t a hardship

    4. I don’t often quote Steve Phillips but I will here “upside will get you fired.” Freddy Garcia threw some 150 innings last year and while he was certainly not great – he was solid enough. I have no problem with a kid in the rotation but two plus AJ might wind up killing the pen.

  43. ZMAN January 3rd, 2011 at 2:02 pm

    upstate kate – Gotcha. I was referring to the retirement tweet, but I agree with you on the other quote.

  44. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    Mell January 3rd, 2011 at 1:59 pm
    “Yankees tried going with two rookies in the rotation in 2008 with Hughes and Kennedy. Both of whom were much better prospects than Nova, Noesi, Phelps etc…

    Failed miserably”

    It did fail miserably, but there was no Sabathia-type innings horse leading the rotation nor was there a 25 year old all star backing that innings horse up. Big difference.

    ——————

    Mike Mussina and Andy Pettitte were both in that rotation and both threw 200 innings.

  45. Carlo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    # DaSaint007 January 3rd, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    Carlo,

    We’ve been to the playoffs with worse. And frankly, we only need 4 starters max for the playoffs, and God forbid, should CC, Hughes, and AJ have stellar seasons, may even get away with 3. Longshot, but not impossible.
    ——————————————-

    Really? I dont recall a staff that was this soft on paper at any point during the last 15 years. You will say the moose/wang/johnson/wright staffs were worse, but I dont think that is accurate. The only thing this staff has on those is CC……and he is merely replacing Wang’s contributions in those years.

  46. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 2:07 pm

    LGY January 3rd, 2011 at 1:57 pm
    Chip

    I said before I would sign Francis, but I still think they make the playoffs without him.

    Anyway, the hitting was the main problem in 2008, not the pitching.

    The pitching wasn’t actually that bad.

    ———————–

    Darrell Rasner made 20 starts with an ERA of 5.4
    Sidney Freaken Ponson made 15 starts with an ERA of 5.8
    Wang blew himself up
    Andy at least suited up, but his ERA was 4.5
    Hughes and Kennedy were awful
    Carl Pavano had seven miserable starts

    Mussina was the only starter who pitched well

  47. West Coast Yankee Fan January 3rd, 2011 at 2:08 pm

    Chip – who said you give deadlines in public? The Yankees are quite good at keeping secrets when they want to. Any know wht Eiland was fired? Or why Burnett had a black eye?

  48. West Coast Yankee Fan January 3rd, 2011 at 2:09 pm

    sic – anyone know why…

  49. heyman_sux January 3rd, 2011 at 2:09 pm

    Really? I dont recall a staff that was this soft on paper at any point during the last 15 years. You will say the moose/wang/johnson/wright staffs were worse, but I dont think that is accurate. The only thing this staff has on those is CC??and he is merely replacing Wang?s contributions in those years.
    _____

    Moose, Pettitte, Joba, Razzmatazz, Sidney Ponson was pretty soft. But also that team had NO defense.

  50. Carlo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:11 pm

    # heyman_sux January 3rd, 2011 at 2:09 pm

    Really? I dont recall a staff that was this soft on paper at any point during the last 15 years. You will say the moose/wang/johnson/wright staffs were worse, but I dont think that is accurate. The only thing this staff has on those is CC??and he is merely replacing Wang?s contributions in those years.
    _____

    Moose, Pettitte, Joba, Razzmatazz, Sidney Ponson was pretty soft. But also that team had NO defense.
    —————————————

    Yes – and that team missed the playoffs.

  51. LGY January 3rd, 2011 at 2:13 pm

    Chip,

    The Yankees didn’t make the playoffs in 2008 because the Yankees only scored 789 runs. 7 out of 14 teams in the AL in runs scored.

    Offense was the problem.

    Also, this is from something I posted the other day

    “The Yankees starters in 2008 had a 4.05 FIP and 4.23 xFIP both good for 3rd in the AL. So, why such the large discrepancy between FIP and the ERA of this staff?

    Maybe, because the Yankees defense accumulated a -42.1 Team UZR. 3rd worst in the AL. Also, the starters had a .323 BABIP. 2nd most in the AL.”

  52. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 2:15 pm

    West Coast Yankee Fan January 3rd, 2011 at 2:08 pm
    Chip – who said you give deadlines in public? The Yankees are quite good at keeping secrets when they want to. Any know wht Eiland was fired? Or why Burnett had a black eye?

    —————————-

    But again – what’s the point in the deadline – private or public? You think that if the Yankees had deadlines on Lee or Andy and either/both of those guys came to them after the Yankees would care that it was after the deadline?

    No one the Yankees were interested in seriously came off the board before the Lee decision – the one fall back who did – Ted Lilly – signed long before free agency even opened.

    As for Andy – again, no one whom the Yankees would view as a replacement has come off the board.

    The Yankees needed to fill a couple of spots – and they filled them
    The Yankees needed to retain their own FA – and they did

    Two guys that the Yankees were very interested in went elsewhere this winter – Lee and Wood – and the Yankees couldn’t have changed their minds. But while the Yankees missed out on Wood the relief market is still very deep with Soriano, Rauch, Gregg, and Fuentes. Lee is irreplaceable, but that would have been the case no matter when he spurned the Yankees.

  53. Patrick January 3rd, 2011 at 2:16 pm

    Chip,

    You are letting your biases against Joba and Pavano show… if you want to improve the team you have to have an open mind.

  54. BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:17 pm

    Are there people on here who have honestly convinced themselves that this is a playoff team should Mitre/Nova/Phelps/Noesi round out the 4/5 spots in the rotation? If there are, please identify yourselves

    ******

    Identified too. The Yankees have until July 31 to pick up the help they need to make play-offs.

  55. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 2:19 pm

    LGY January 3rd, 2011 at 2:13 pm
    Chip,

    The Yankees didn’t make the playoffs in 2008 because the Yankees only scored 789 runs. 7 out of 14 teams in the AL in runs scored.

    Offense was the problem.

    Also, this is from something I posted the other day

    “The Yankees starters in 2008 had a 4.05 FIP and 4.23 xFIP both good for 3rd in the AL. So, why such the large discrepancy between FIP and the ERA of this staff?

    Maybe, because the Yankees defense accumulated a -42.1 Team UZR. 3rd worst in the AL. Also, the starters had a .323 BABIP. 2nd most in the AL.”

    ——————————-

    LGY -

    Alphabet soup or not – a team where 2 of your 5 starters are pitching to an ERA north of 5 and 1 of your starting spots is completely up for grabs is not going to make the playoffs.

    The only reason the 2008 Yankee pitching looks even slightly respectable is because of good performances out of the pen by Mo, Joba, Farnsworth, Giese, Bruney and Coke.

  56. Carlo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:19 pm

    # BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:17 pm

    Are there people on here who have honestly convinced themselves that this is a playoff team should Mitre/Nova/Phelps/Noesi round out the 4/5 spots in the rotation? If there are, please identify yourselves

    ******

    Identified too. The Yankees have until July 31 to pick up the help they need to make play-offs.
    ———————-

    So in a sense, you are saying that the rotation above is not good enough to get them there. They will need to use the deadline to make it work…….and as such, you would in a sense be saying that they will put themselves in a hole between now and the deadline.

  57. BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:20 pm

    Carlo January 3rd, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    # LGY January 3rd, 2011 at 1:48 pm

    Are there people on here who have honestly convinced themselves that this is a playoff team should Mitre/Nova/Phelps/Noesi round out the 4/5 spots in the rotation? If there are, please identify yourselves

    ******

    Identified
    ——————

    Mega Millions is at $290 mm….you should buy a ticket since you would probably peg yourself as the pre draw favorite to win it.
    +++++++++++++++
    Wrong again. I’m winning it. :-)

  58. LGY January 3rd, 2011 at 2:21 pm

    Alphabet soup or not – a team where 2 of your 5 starters are pitching to an ERA north of 5 and 1 of your starting spots is completely up for grabs is not going to make the playoffs.

    The only reason the 2008 Yankee pitching looks even slightly respectable is because of good performances out of the pen by Mo, Joba, Farnsworth, Giese, Bruney and Coke.

    ——————–

    Those numbers don’t include the bullpen.

    Also, from my post the other day

    “In 2008, the Yankees starters had an unimpressive 4.58 ERA. That would rank them 9 out of 14 teams. However, let’s put that in context with some other recent successful Yankee teams. The 2010 Yankees who made it to the ALCS and won 95 games had a 4.35 ERA from their starters last year. That put them at 10th in the AL. The 2009 WS Champion NYY had a 4.48 ERA from their starters good for 5th in the AL.”

  59. heyman_sux January 3rd, 2011 at 2:21 pm

    Yes ? and that team missed the playoffs.
    ____

    Yes, and like I said, and Chip backed with stats, that team had crap for defense. They had pitchers who pitched to contact, no one who could make put-outs, and only the offense wasn’t able to overcompensate. And yet, that team still won 89 games. Even with that garbage staff, the current lineup could probably win 95+ even with that dreadful rotation

  60. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 2:21 pm

    Patrick January 3rd, 2011 at 2:16 pm
    Chip,

    You are letting your biases against Joba and Pavano show… if you want to improve the team you have to have an open mind.

    —————————–

    Patrick -

    I will bet you a dollar that you sooner see me suit up for the New York Yankees than Carl Pavano.

    The Yankees feel like he stole money from them for four years – they’re not bringing him back.

    As for Joba – I would LOVE absolutely love for Joba Chamberlain to get on the phone with Brian Cashman, Joe Girardi and Larry Rothschild and say “what do you need me to show you for me to have a shot in the rotation?”

    I would love for him to come to Tampa this year looking like Brian Bruney did when he started to take his weight seriously.

    He’s got more talent in his right arm than any player available at this stage. But I don’t realistically think he’s an option and, based on their public comments, neither do the Yankees.

  61. Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 2:21 pm

    The Yankees amazing bullpen was amazing in 08. That balanced out the starting.

  62. 108 stitches January 3rd, 2011 at 2:22 pm

    A lesson should have been learned from 2010 with Vazquez. Considering the likes of scrap heap types like Francis or Garcia is a recipe for failure. Neither can show a 90 MPH reading on a radar gun.
    These are moves that Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and other bottom feeders make.

  63. BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:23 pm

    Carlo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:19 pm

    So in a sense, you are saying that the rotation above is not good enough to get them there. They will need to use the deadline to make it work…….and as such, you would in a sense be saying that they will put themselves in a hole between now and the deadline.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++
    What I am saying is that the season plays out on the field, not on paper in January. Injuries to other teams can happen, or rookies can surprise like Want and Cano did. I also feel that the kids at AAA will give them enough depth to either fill holes internally or get a piece they need.

    I also believe that the Yankee offense will be potent enough to get them enough victories to stay close until they piock up all the pieces they need.

  64. Carlo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:23 pm

    # LGY January 3rd, 2011 at 2:21 pm

    “In 2008, the Yankees starters had an unimpressive 4.58 ERA. That would rank them 9 out of 14 teams. However, let’s put that in context with some other recent successful Yankee teams. The 2010 Yankees who made it to the ALCS and won 95 games had a 4.35 ERA from their starters last year. That put them at 10th in the AL. The 2009 WS Champion NYY had a 4.48 ERA from their starters good for 5th in the AL.”

    —————————————

    9th of 14? Thats good…..in the 2nd half of 2010, they ranked 13th of 14……and guess what, they didnt have Andy Pettitte for the vast majority of that stretch.

  65. LGY January 3rd, 2011 at 2:24 pm

    The Yankee offense scored 968 runs in 2007.

    In 2008, that dropped all the way down to 789. A 179 run difference.

    The Yankee run differential in 2008 was +62. Red Sox +151. Rays +103.

    If the Yankees had hit like they normally do they would have slugged their way to the playoffs in 2008.

  66. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 2:24 pm

    LGY January 3rd, 2011 at 2:21 pm
    Alphabet soup or not – a team where 2 of your 5 starters are pitching to an ERA north of 5 and 1 of your starting spots is completely up for grabs is not going to make the playoffs.

    The only reason the 2008 Yankee pitching looks even slightly respectable is because of good performances out of the pen by Mo, Joba, Farnsworth, Giese, Bruney and Coke.

    ——————–

    Those numbers don’t include the bullpen.

    Also, from my post the other day

    “In 2008, the Yankees starters had an unimpressive 4.58 ERA. That would rank them 9 out of 14 teams. However, let’s put that in context with some other recent successful Yankee teams. The 2010 Yankees who made it to the ALCS and won 95 games had a 4.35 ERA from their starters last year. That put them at 10th in the AL. The 2009 WS Champion NYY had a 4.48 ERA from their starters good for 5th in the AL.”

    —————————–

    Fair enough – but to say that the 08 rotation wasn’t a mess just makes you look bad. It was awful.

    Yes, the offense was bad too – Melky was terrible, Posada missed most of the year and Matsui was hurt too – but the pitching was hoooooorible.

  67. heyman_sux January 3rd, 2011 at 2:25 pm

    http://riveraveblues.com/2010/.....tre-40514/

    Interesting read from last week. I’d love to have Pettitte back and I’m NOT advocating for Mitre to the rotation, but Andy’s value is slightly overblown. We forget he’s 38. Over the course of the season, what he really provides us is a name (with known value) for the rotation and peace of mind. His real value is in the playoffs, which I believe the Yankees can reach even without Andy. I’m not saying they get any farther than that, but maybe that can be addressed by the trade deadline

  68. Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 2:25 pm

    Are there people on here who have honestly convinced themselves that this is a playoff team should Mitre/Nova/Phelps/Noesi round out the 4/5 spots in the rotation? If there are, please identify yourselves

    Count me in as well. People need to look at what prior teams have done and then look at the competition. The Yankees aren’t trying to make the playoffs against a fantasy MLB full of the 162-0 2011 Red Sox squad.

    They just have to be better than their competitors which as constructed they are. Top offense, solid bullpen, 2 good starters.

  69. LGY January 3rd, 2011 at 2:25 pm

    Carlo,

    So, who is making the playoffs ahead of the Yankees?

  70. Erin January 3rd, 2011 at 2:25 pm

    OK Andy, you’ve had plenty of time with the family. Time to come back! ;)

  71. Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 2:26 pm

    Red Sox sign Hector Luna, god damnit Cashman! Theo is a tireless machine.

  72. Carlo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:26 pm

    # BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:23 pm

    Carlo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:19 pm

    So in a sense, you are saying that the rotation above is not good enough to get them there. They will need to use the deadline to make it work…….and as such, you would in a sense be saying that they will put themselves in a hole between now and the deadline.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++
    What I am saying is that the season plays out on the field, not on paper in January. Injuries to other teams can happen, or rookies can surprise like Want and Cano did. I also feel that the kids at AAA will give them enough depth to either fill holes internally or get a piece they need.

    I also believe that the Yankee offense will be potent enough to get them enough victories to stay close until they piock up all the pieces they need.
    ———————————————-

    Ok – but the question I am asking is being asked in January and in exchange for paper I am using electronic communication for my forum……..I am not asking if a rotation with nova and mitre on opening day is enough to make the playoffs assuming they trade for cliff lee and felix hernandez at the all star break.

    The point is, anyone who claims to be happy and without concern over this rotation at this point is kidding themselves.

  73. heyman_sux January 3rd, 2011 at 2:28 pm

    The point is, anyone who claims to be happy and without concern over this rotation at this point is kidding themselves.
    ____

    All teams have concerns. The Yankees are still a solid bet to make the playoffs

  74. Carlo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:29 pm

    # LGY January 3rd, 2011 at 2:25 pm

    Carlo,

    So, who is making the playoffs ahead of the Yankees?

    ——————————–

    The 3 division winners and one wild card team.

    I will take Boston to win the east and one of the following for the wild card:

    tampa bay
    minnesota
    chicago ws
    detroit
    anaheim
    texas

    lets say i like anaheim and detroit in the west and central and that leaves the yankees having to compete with tampa, minnesota, anaheim and the white sox for one spot.

    Now you can go ahead and tell me why each of those teams isnt good…….but you wont be able to tell me the yankees have a better staff than any of them.

  75. Carlo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:29 pm

    meant texas to win the west.

  76. Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 2:30 pm

    The point is, anyone who claims to be happy and without concern over this rotation at this point is kidding themselves.

    You want concern? Fine, I am concerned that Nova and Mitre might not be above average starters. But the Yankees will make the playoffs regardless.

    You’re taking a stance which requires so many more things to go right for everyone else, and things to go wrong for the YAnkees, for the Yankees to miss the playoffs.

  77. Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 2:31 pm

    “Are there people on here who have honestly convinced themselves that this is a playoff team should Mitre/Nova/Phelps/Noesi round out the 4/5 spots in the rotation? If there are, please identify yourselves”

    Whether it is a playoff team or not is irrelevant. The question is, is it likely to be the best rotation the Yanks can field at this point, and I think, if you add Joba and Mitchell to the mix, the answer is yes.

    And it can be good enough to make the playoffs, as long as some third team doesn’t come along and win 95 games.

  78. BIG AL January 3rd, 2011 at 2:31 pm

    Interesting link about how the NFL Wilson Footballs are made.

    http://www.reliableplant.com/V.....-footballs

  79. Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 2:33 pm

    This isn’t Major League Pitching Staff, its major league baseball.

  80. blake January 3rd, 2011 at 2:33 pm

    I think its entirely possible that the Yankees could win the WC and even compete for the division with what they have right now…..that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t try to improve of they can but they still have a lot of talent on that team and if no moves can be made now they can always do so in season……a lot of guys that aren’t available now.could be in July.

  81. Carlo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:34 pm

    # Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 2:33 pm

    This isn’t Major League Pitching Staff, its major league baseball.

    ——————————

    Agreed – this isnt a major league pitching staff.

  82. West Coast Yankee Fan January 3rd, 2011 at 2:34 pm

    So now making the playoffs is the goal? Not winning the division? Not having the best record in baseball?

  83. BTX January 3rd, 2011 at 2:36 pm

    “Whether it is a playoff team or not is irrelevant. The question is, is it likely to be the best rotation the Yanks can field at this point,”

    Bingo – that’s the key.

  84. Carlo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:36 pm

    # Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 2:30 pm

    The point is, anyone who claims to be happy and without concern over this rotation at this point is kidding themselves.


    You’re taking a stance which requires so many more things to go right for everyone else, and things to go wrong for the YAnkees, for the Yankees to miss the playoffs.

    ——————————————–

    No – thats incorrect……..unless you want to argue that the yankees are in good shape to win the east then I am basically saying that i will take the field against the yankees for the wild card at this moment in time.

    Needless to say, this is a discussion that will never be proved true or false because there is no way brian cashman has a job come april if mitre and nova are in the rotation.

  85. Carlo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:37 pm

    # West Coast Yankee Fan January 3rd, 2011 at 2:34 pm

    So now making the playoffs is the goal?

    ————————————-

    One of several yankee related goals in my book.

  86. BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:37 pm

    Carlo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:26 pm

    Ok – but the question I am asking is being asked in January and in exchange for paper I am using electronic communication for my forum……..I am not asking if a rotation with nova and mitre on opening day is enough to make the playoffs assuming they trade for cliff lee and felix hernandez at the all star break.

    The point is, anyone who claims to be happy and without concern over this rotation at this point is kidding themselves.
    ++++++++++++++++
    I don’t think so. A top notch offense (aided by an improved Granderson, a healthy Gardner, a healthier ARod, Martin over Cervelli and Posada over Johnson), a top notch defense (with a Gold Glove cathcer to stop running games), a stronger bullpen (especially if Cashman picks up a Soriano), and CC, Hughes and an improved Burnett will carry this team to play-offs.

    All these components were NOT in place the lastt ime the team brought up 2 rookies to their starting staff…PLUS the team has several options for those slots. My preference would be to see Joba get the #4 and Nova the #5, and sign Soriano. I would be fine with that throughout the season…ewspecially with guys like Brackman probably available after the ASB.

  87. Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 2:38 pm

    No – thats incorrect……..unless you want to argue that the yankees are in good shape to win the east then I am basically saying that i will take the field against the yankees for the wild card at this moment in time.

    Ok, they are in good shape to win the east. Though really what we want is: Are the yankees good enough to win 90+ games? Right now, yes.

  88. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 2:39 pm

    Not sure why but my posts have been getting eaten in transit.

    As for scrap pile guys – before you say that Garcia, Francis etc…have nothing to offer – look at guys like Colby Lewis, RA from the Mets, Padilla and Benoit.

  89. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 2:39 pm

    Sigh – and I just figured it out – the censor doesn’t like the last name of the pitcher I am referencing from the Mets…

  90. blake January 3rd, 2011 at 2:40 pm

    Im hopeful that the Yankees can make a move to improve themselves before ST but what I don’t want to happen is for them to use quality trades chips for a marginal upgade now and then have something better come along in June and them either not have room or not have enough to get a deal done then. If Seattle is 20 games out and decides to shop Felix his summer before his salary doubles then I want the Yankees to be able to make that move….

  91. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 2:40 pm

    Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 2:31 pm
    “Are there people on here who have honestly convinced themselves that this is a playoff team should Mitre/Nova/Phelps/Noesi round out the 4/5 spots in the rotation? If there are, please identify yourselves”

    Whether it is a playoff team or not is irrelevant.
    ——————————-

    Not to the Yankees it isn’t.

  92. DaSaint007 January 3rd, 2011 at 2:42 pm

    Carlo,

    CC is capable of winning 20 games.
    Hughes showed that at his young age he too is capable of winning 20 games.
    AJ was horrible, but the chances of lightning hitting him twice and being awful for 2 successive years is remote. He should win at least 15 games.

    A rotation of 2 near-20 game winners, and 1 15-game winner is pretty decent in my book.

    If the #4 and #5 starters (however they are pieced together) can win another 20 games, that would be an excellent staff. I don’t care who are the #4 and 5, I only care about the wins.

    So do I think that Francis/ Garcia and Nova/Phelpes/Mitre can win 10 games each?

    Um, yes.

  93. BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:43 pm

    Anytime I can be on the same side of an argument with LGY, Jerkface, Heyman_Sux, and Wave Your Hat, I fell like I am going to be right more often than wrong.

  94. DaSaint007 January 3rd, 2011 at 2:43 pm

    Needless to say, this is a discussion that will never be proved true or false because there is no way brian cashman has a job come april if mitre and nova are in the rotation.

    —————————————-

    Brian Cashman’s job security is determined in October, not April.

  95. Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 2:43 pm

    Not to the Yankees it isn’t.

    Seeing as how the Yankees are going to be a playoff team regardless of the rotation I think looking at the question as: “Is this the best rotation we can field” *IS* more appropriate

  96. Pat M. January 3rd, 2011 at 2:43 pm

    Just spoke to my sports broker and invested a c-note on the NY Jets money line ( 3000 ) to win the Super Bowl……The curse of Joe Willie to be lifted in Dallas ????

  97. Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 2:44 pm

    “Not to the Yankees it isn’t.”

    Whether the best rotation the Yanks can field is a playoff rotation is a separate question. It is also essentially irrelevant in determining how to proceed since the Yanks are unlikely to intentionally field not the best rotation they can.

  98. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 2:45 pm

    Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 2:31 pm
    “Are there people on here who have honestly convinced themselves that this is a playoff team should Mitre/Nova/Phelps/Noesi round out the 4/5 spots in the rotation? If there are, please identify yourselves”

    Whether it is a playoff team or not is irrelevant. The question is, is it likely to be the best rotation the Yanks can field at this point, and I think, if you add Joba and Mitchell to the mix, the answer is yes.

    And it can be good enough to make the playoffs, as long as some third team doesn’t come along and win 95 games.

    ————————

    And why do you keep suggesting that they “add Joba to the mix” when the Yankees decision makers have flat out said, time and again, that Joba Chamberlain is not in the mix for a starting job, he’s strictly a reliever?

  99. Mell January 3rd, 2011 at 2:46 pm

    “Just spoke to my sports broker and invested a c-note on the NY Jets money line ( 3000 ) to win the Super Bowl……The curse of Joe Willie to be lifted in Dallas ????”

    Might beat Indy, but can’t see it going past there. No soft touches in the playoffs like last season.

  100. BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:46 pm

    One disagreement I would have with Jerkface’s last comment is that I still would not concede 1st place in AL East toRed Sox. They are an older team with several big question marks. No guarantee they will win 1st place. Buckholz could have arm problems after throwing so many innings, and the rest of starting staff aside from Lester is risky.

    Their C defense is awful ans SS and CF are so-so. Bullpen is a cr*pshoot with Papelbon…they could easily win 85 or 100 games…no guarantee wither way.

  101. Vineyard Yankee January 3rd, 2011 at 2:48 pm

    What a sad post, Andy Pettitte again and his decision making process. Pure garbage, so officially retire already and get it over with. With the $ 15 million they might have to pay him that money can be better spent on two or three other pieces for the 2011 team.

    How about Rauch and a good solid player with a good bat to come off the bench, get 300 or so AB’s and play good D in the OF.

    Take a hike Andy, see ya at OT’ers Day with Yogi.

  102. DaSaint007 January 3rd, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    I wish that Cash would just sign Jon Rauch already.
    The only reason that I can think of for them not doing so is if they feel that the market price of Soriano will drop, and they’d rather use the resources on him.
    Frankly, I’d sign them both.

  103. Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    “And why do you keep suggesting that they “add Joba to the mix” when the Yankees decision makers have flat out said, time and again, that Joba Chamberlain is not in the mix for a starting job, he’s strictly a reliever?”

    Because I think they should? Because I think the Yanks are making a foolish decision if they don’t? Because I think Joba can be a solid starter?

  104. Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    in 2009, 5 of the top 6 teams at run prevention did not make the playoffs. Teams win games, not just sub-units of a team. The yankees as currently constituted are better than every team except Boston.

  105. Against All Odds January 3rd, 2011 at 2:51 pm

    # Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    “And why do you keep suggesting that they “add Joba to the mix” when the Yankees decision makers have flat out said, time and again, that Joba Chamberlain is not in the mix for a starting job, he’s strictly a reliever?”

    Because I think they should? Because I think the Yanks are making a foolish decision if they don’t? Because I think Joba can be a solid starter?
    ————————————————————-

    I think he could be a solid too. Are they Yankees that reluctant to put him back in there because the heat they took in 2009 was too much from them to handle.

  106. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 2:51 pm

    Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 2:44 pm
    “Not to the Yankees it isn’t.”

    Whether the best rotation the Yanks can field is a playoff rotation is a separate question. It is also essentially irrelevant in determining how to proceed since the Yanks are unlikely to intentionally field not the best rotation they can.

    ————————

    No it isn’t.

    It depends on what you are looking for.

    Would the Yankees benefit, long term, from bringing in guys like Nova, Noesi, Phelps, etc…? Probably.

    But in the short term, the rotation that gives them the best chance of making the playoffs may be one that includes a veteran like Freddy Garcia who may lack the upside of a young pitcher but could/would provide more immediate returns for the major league squad.

  107. heyman_sux January 3rd, 2011 at 2:51 pm

    Whether the best rotation the Yanks can field is a playoff rotation is a separate question. It is also essentially irrelevant in determining how to proceed since the Yanks are unlikely to intentionally field not the best rotation they can.
    _____

    LOL i sure hope so

  108. Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 2:51 pm

    One disagreement I would have with Jerkface’s last comment is that I still would not concede 1st place in AL East toRed Sox.

    I am also not conceding 1st to the Red Sox. Trust me I’ve bloviated enough about the troubles the red sox could face.

  109. BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:52 pm

    I’d pass on Rauch and just go all after Soriano. I think perhaps the FO thinks Brackman or another AAA pithcer like Noesi might give them the same or better performance that Rauch could give them. We all know Cashman thinks he uncovered a magic formula of bringing up starters to fill bullpen holes rather than sign veterans to multi-year deals for those spots.

  110. DaSaint007 January 3rd, 2011 at 2:52 pm

    That’s kinda harsh VY, but I can understand the sentiment.
    I’d offer Andy $16M, give him another week to make up his mind, and move on.
    Sign Rauch for the pen.
    Sign Francis (he can be a starter or long reliever/spot starter).
    Sign Sign Garcia if necessary and move Nova to the pen, though I’d prefer him in the rotation.

  111. BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:53 pm

    Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 2:51 pm

    One disagreement I would have with Jerkface’s last comment is that I still would not concede 1st place in AL East toRed Sox.

    I am also not conceding 1st to the Red Sox. Trust me I’ve bloviated enough about the troubles the red sox could face.
    +++++++++++
    Then we are in total agreement!

  112. heyman_sux January 3rd, 2011 at 2:55 pm

    But in the short term, the rotation that gives them the best chance of making the playoffs may be one that includes a veteran like Freddy Garcia
    ______

    I still have trouble getting behind this. I’m hesistant to trust in guys who haven’t seen major league time yet bc of the memory of 2008 and the reliance on young guys. That being said, this lineup+decent defense could make a guy like Nova a 12+ game winner. I would almost rather a kid got experience – whether to groom him for a future rotation slot, or to boost trade value. Maybe I’m wrong, but I just don’t like the Freddy Garcia’s of the world.

  113. DaSaint007 January 3rd, 2011 at 2:56 pm

    If Soriano can be signed, the media will be all over the Yankees talking about how the rich just got richer. Whatever. I hope Cashman can do it, but I wouldn’t want him to spend all his time chasing him, losing him, and then losing Rauch in the interim.

    We’ve seen that sequence before. Got to have a backup plan in place. Sign Rauch first. Figure out what to do with him later if Soriano is signed. Nice problem to have.

  114. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 2:57 pm

    Against All Odds January 3rd, 2011 at 2:51 pm
    # Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    “And why do you keep suggesting that they “add Joba to the mix” when the Yankees decision makers have flat out said, time and again, that Joba Chamberlain is not in the mix for a starting job, he’s strictly a reliever?”

    Because I think they should? Because I think the Yanks are making a foolish decision if they don’t? Because I think Joba can be a solid starter?
    ————————————————————-

    I think he could be a solid too. Are they Yankees that reluctant to put him back in there because the heat they took in 2009 was too much from them to handle.

    —————————-

    No, it’s because he hurt his shoulder, his velocity dropped and he has since regressed terribly with no signs of improvement.

  115. BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 2:57 pm

    I would go so far as to say that if Martin returns to previous playing standards, that Cashman has had a better off-season than Epstein.

    The C defense was a hugh problem for both teams, and Cashman beat Eppy to the punch in getting a Gold Glove winner with great stats against basestealers. He also picked up a solid LHRP, and got his key players re-signed.

    If Cashman also signs Soriano and moves Joba to SP, then IMO he kicks Eppy’s butt. All Eppy did was sign 2 players to replace the key players he lost, but at HUGE contracts for too many years…the defense took a step backwards, and he still has a HUGE gap in C defense.

  116. AldotheApache January 3rd, 2011 at 2:58 pm

    Carlo,

    Really? I dont recall a staff that was this soft on paper at any point during the last 15 years. You will say the moose/wang/johnson/wright staffs were worse, but I dont think that is accurate. The only thing this staff has on those is CC……and he is merely replacing Wang’s contributions in those years.

    —————-

    Then you should try to recall 1998, when they had only TWO reliable starters going into the season. That rotation had El Duque newly arrived, the Fat Toad Irabu recently signed. B

  117. Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 2:59 pm

    “But in the short term, the rotation that gives them the best chance of making the playoffs may be one that includes a veteran like Freddy Garcia who may lack the upside of a young pitcher but could/would provide more immediate returns for the major league squad.”

    It “may”, but also it “may not”. Veterans “could” provide immediate returns, but also very well could not. I don’t believe the remaining pitchers are more desirable than the kids. Maybe Francis, but I don’t have confidence. The kids are the best option IMO.

  118. AldotheApache January 3rd, 2011 at 3:00 pm

    CONT’D

    Both Irabu and Duque were unknown entities. And David Cone was coming off a serious injury.

    They only won 125 games that year.

  119. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 3:01 pm

    heyman_sux January 3rd, 2011 at 2:55 pm
    But in the short term, the rotation that gives them the best chance of making the playoffs may be one that includes a veteran like Freddy Garcia
    ______

    I still have trouble getting behind this. I’m hesistant to trust in guys who haven’t seen major league time yet bc of the memory of 2008 and the reliance on young guys. That being said, this lineup+decent defense could make a guy like Nova a 12+ game winner. I would almost rather a kid got experience – whether to groom him for a future rotation slot, or to boost trade value. Maybe I’m wrong, but I just don’t like the Freddy Garcia’s of the world.

    —————-

    Again – before you slam the Freddy Garcia’s of the world.

    Texas got great returns from Colby Lewis who had a career ERA over 5 and had been over in Japan for two years before last year.

    RA from the Mets was outstanding (I can’t post his last name)

    Vincente Padilla and Joaquin Benoit were both really good for their teams.

  120. DaSaint007 January 3rd, 2011 at 3:03 pm

    For those so advocating, If Joba is (miraculously) placed in the rotation, is he the #4 or #5 starter?

  121. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 3:04 pm

    Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 2:59 pm
    “But in the short term, the rotation that gives them the best chance of making the playoffs may be one that includes a veteran like Freddy Garcia who may lack the upside of a young pitcher but could/would provide more immediate returns for the major league squad.”

    It “may”, but also it “may not”. Veterans “could” provide immediate returns, but also very well could not. I don’t believe the remaining pitchers are more desirable than the kids. Maybe Francis, but I don’t have confidence. The kids are the best option IMO.

    ———————–

    If you look at the recent results in the league you get better results from major leaguers pulled off the scrap heap than you do from kids that are rushed into major league roles before they’re ready.

  122. DaSaint007 January 3rd, 2011 at 3:04 pm

    RA D i c k e y

  123. Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 3:05 pm

    “he has since regressed terribly with no signs of improvement.”

    This just isn’t so. Joba had a 4.40 ERA last year, 2 bad months out of 6, and a FIP of 2.98. He had 2 bad months in 2009 out of 6.

    He will be only 25 this year. Lots of excellent pitchers have had their ups and downs in their early 20s.

  124. Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 3:05 pm

    than you do from kids that are rushed into major league roles before they’re ready.

    What decides when someone is ready?

  125. Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 3:05 pm

    “kids that are rushed into major league roles before they’re ready.”

    This is a tautology. How do you know they aren’t ready? By how they pitch. Let them pitch.

  126. Against All Odds January 3rd, 2011 at 3:05 pm

    # Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 2:57 pm

    Against All Odds January 3rd, 2011 at 2:51 pm
    # Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    “And why do you keep suggesting that they “add Joba to the mix” when the Yankees decision makers have flat out said, time and again, that Joba Chamberlain is not in the mix for a starting job, he’s strictly a reliever?”

    Because I think they should? Because I think the Yanks are making a foolish decision if they don’t? Because I think Joba can be a solid starter?
    ————————————————————-

    I think he could be a solid too. Are they Yankees that reluctant to put him back in there because the heat they took in 2009 was too much from them to handle.

    —————————-

    No, it’s because he hurt his shoulder, his velocity dropped and he has since regressed terribly with no signs of improvement
    .

    ———————————————-

    So then why won’t just trade him? He serves no purpose to the team.

  127. heyman_sux January 3rd, 2011 at 3:06 pm

    Chip,

    I’m not slamming those guys but it’s hard to passionately support the cause of signing one of them

  128. DocTodd January 3rd, 2011 at 3:07 pm

    I’m not counting on Cashman doing much of anything….I hope I’m wrong!

  129. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 3:08 pm

    DaSaint007 January 3rd, 2011 at 3:03 pm
    For those so advocating, If Joba is (miraculously) placed in the rotation, is he the #4 or #5 starter?

    ——————————-

    He’s the number 5 starter if for no other reason than that he won’t have enough innings built up to be viable throwing anymore than 120 – 130 innings.

    And figure he’s no more than a 5 inning starter.

  130. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    Against All Odds January 3rd, 2011 at 3:05 pm
    # Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 2:57 pm

    Against All Odds January 3rd, 2011 at 2:51 pm
    # Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    “And why do you keep suggesting that they “add Joba to the mix” when the Yankees decision makers have flat out said, time and again, that Joba Chamberlain is not in the mix for a starting job, he’s strictly a reliever?”

    Because I think they should? Because I think the Yanks are making a foolish decision if they don’t? Because I think Joba can be a solid starter?
    ————————————————————-

    I think he could be a solid too. Are they Yankees that reluctant to put him back in there because the heat they took in 2009 was too much from them to handle.

    —————————-

    No, it’s because he hurt his shoulder, his velocity dropped and he has since regressed terribly with no signs of improvement
    .

    ———————————————-

    So then why won’t just trade him? He serves no purpose to the team.

    ——————————–

    Because his trade value is very low. And for now he’s still an inexpensive relief pitcher.

  131. AldotheApache January 3rd, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    I would MUCH rather see any ready young arm, trusting in girardi’s and rothchild’s judgment, than any retread like Garcia.

  132. Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    He’s the number 5 starter if for no other reason than that he won’t have enough innings built up to be viable throwing anymore than 120 – 130 innings.

    He would be cleared for 200 IP. He threw 170 in 2009!

  133. Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 3:10 pm

    Before Joba got tossed into the Joba Rules he averaged 5.5 innings a start.

  134. heyman_sux January 3rd, 2011 at 3:12 pm

    The 2011 NY Yankees – Starring Joba Chamberlain as Jaret Wright

  135. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 3:13 pm

    Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 3:05 pm
    than you do from kids that are rushed into major league roles before they’re ready.

    What decides when someone is ready?

    —————-

    Ready – IMNSHO – means that you look at the pitcher in question as a viable option rather than as a last resort.

    Now, I’m not saying we’re there yet – but if Andy does retire and reports start coming out that the Yankees are seriously going after the Garcia’s or Francis’s of the world but get spurned by those guys – that tells me that the kids are Cashman’s last resort, not an option he feels comfortable with going forward.

    Again, I agree with Chad – if we were talking about Andy returning and having one spot up for grabs – go for it, let Ivan Nova and the others compete for the spot in spring training. I do not feel as comfortable with two open spots.

  136. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 3:14 pm

    Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 3:10 pm
    Before Joba got tossed into the Joba Rules he averaged 5.5 innings a start.

    ——————

    And now he’s a relief pitcher who is going to have to be stretched out and the last time they stretched him out he repayed them with a shoulder injury – the Yankees aren’t going to just throw him into the….

    why are we arguing about this – Joba Chamberlain is going to be a middle of the bullpen reliever next year.

  137. DaSaint007 January 3rd, 2011 at 3:15 pm

    I’ve considered this Joba thing all summer and I’m torn.
    What would be better?

    Rotation A: CC, Hughes, AJ, Nova, Joba
    Bullpen A: Rivera, Soriano, Rauch, Robertson, Logan, Feliciano, Mitre

    Rotation B: CC, Hughes, AJ, Francis/Garcia, Nova
    Bullpen B: Rivera, Soriano, Robertson, Joba, Logan, Feliciano, Mitre

  138. heyman_sux January 3rd, 2011 at 3:16 pm

    I do not feel as comfortable with two open spots.
    _____

    I guess based on this past season, I didn’t see Nova as a #1 starter or anything. But I saw enough to think its reasonable to assume he would perform at least as well as Freddy Garcia. On that basis, it’s one slot open

  139. Vineyard Yankee January 3rd, 2011 at 3:17 pm

    heyman_sux
    January 3rd, 2011 at 3:12 pm

    The 2011 NY Yankees – Starring Joba Chamberlain as Jaret Wright.

    =================

    Boy you are giving Joba way more credit than he deserves. Jaret Wright is a bonafide star next to Joba. LOL !

  140. Against All Odds January 3rd, 2011 at 3:17 pm

    Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    Because his trade value is very low. And for now he’s still an inexpensive relief pitcher.
    ——————————-

    The Yankees have traded guys with low trade value. My thing is this if he’s not going to start and he’s just an inconsistent middle reliever why keep forcing the issue. It would be one thing if he was lights out but that’s not the case.

  141. Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 3:17 pm

    And now he’s a relief pitcher who is going to have to be stretched out and the last time they stretched him out he repayed them with a shoulder injury

    -

    All offseason + spring training, its what all normal starters do. Hughes did it fine.

  142. Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 3:18 pm

    Boy you are giving Joba way more credit than he deserves. Jaret Wright is a bonafide star next to Joba. LOL !

    Please do not troll, Joba’s career stats are > Jaret Wright. His career was garbage. Don’t talk out yer ass.

  143. heyman_sux January 3rd, 2011 at 3:20 pm

    Jerkface,

    No one is trolling…just having some fun

  144. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 3:22 pm

    Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 3:20 pm
    To the Joba folks…

    If we were talking about the Joba from a couple of years ago I would be all for putting him back in the rotation.

    Do that – sign Soriano – you’re good to go.

    But we’re not talking about that Joba Chamberlain. That shoulder injury robbed him of something. He made no effort to win the rotation job last year – showing up so out of shape it was embarassing. I think we all need to come to accept the fact that Joba Chamberlain is going the way of a lot of highly touted prospects before him – guys like Homer Bailey, Micah Owings, Ryan (Space Needle) Anderson.

  145. BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 2:57 pm
    No, it’s because he hurt his shoulder, his velocity dropped and he has since regressed terribly with no signs of improvement.
    ++++++++++++
    Wrong.

    Joba may have hurt his shoulder, but his throwing 98 mph late in the season is an indication that he has recovered. The last I heard is that Rothschild believes he just needs to get Joba to throwing more from the top to recover movement on his slider, and that he will return to his old 2007 self. I’d sign up for that in SP in a heartbeat.

  146. Against All Odds January 3rd, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    # Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 3:18 pm

    Boy you are giving Joba way more credit than he deserves. Jaret Wright is a bonafide star next to Joba. LOL !

    Please do not troll, Joba’s career stats are > Jaret Wright. His career was garbage. Don’t talk out yer ass.
    ————————————-

    I was about to jump down your throat and say give wright credit his entire career wasn’t garbage but then I looked at his stats and outside of that 1 yr with the Braves yes his career was garbage

  147. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    Jerkface –

    By Joba’s “career stats” you mean his one season as a starter. A performance that was so uninspiring to Yankee decision makers that he lost his job the following spring to Phil Hughes.

  148. Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 3:24 pm

    BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 3:23 pm
    Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 2:57 pm
    No, it’s because he hurt his shoulder, his velocity dropped and he has since regressed terribly with no signs of improvement.
    ++++++++++++
    Wrong.

    Joba may have hurt his shoulder, but his throwing 98 mph late in the season is an indication that he has recovered. The last I heard is that Rothschild believes he just needs to get Joba to throwing more from the top to recover movement on his slider, and that he will return to his old 2007 self. I’d sign up for that in SP in a heartbeat.

    ————————

    Gassing it out for 1 inning is a lot different than being able to hold your velocity for 6 or 7 innings.

  149. Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 3:27 pm

    Joba’s velocity as a starter was still better than other right handers. Joba did have a 3.98 ERA until he went on the ‘joba rules’. It was not good, his performance, and he is accountable for that, but he wasn’t a bad starter before that in 09.

  150. Against All Odds January 3rd, 2011 at 3:30 pm

    # Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 3:27 pm

    Joba’s velocity as a starter was still better than other right handers. Joba did have a 3.98 ERA until he went on the ‘joba rules’. It was not good, his performance, and he is accountable for that, but he wasn’t a bad starter before that in 09.

    —————————————-

    Exactly he was a serviceable 23 yr old pitcher learning on the job

  151. BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 3:35 pm

    Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 3:24 pm

    ————————

    Gassing it out for 1 inning is a lot different than being able to hold your velocity for 6 or 7 innings.
    +++++++++++++
    And yet, he had outings in 2009 where he was throwing 97 late in game. I read some analysis on another blog where the poster made a good case that Eiland was trying to get Joba throw to contact so as to go later in games rather than throw harder. When Joba came back from ASB in 2009, he just threw like he wanted to, and his strikeouts went up and he had great outings.

    I’d like to see them let him start and pitch like a power pitcher…even if he empties the tank at 4 innings. I want to see him learn pitch and not try to muzzle his talent.

  152. Vineyard Yankee January 3rd, 2011 at 3:36 pm

    heyman: Exactly. A bit of fun in a ‘no news’ time of year.

    Jerkweed: Contrary to popular disbelief you are not the blog monitor here. You don’t like the post ? Scroll past it.

  153. Vineyard Yankee January 3rd, 2011 at 3:40 pm

    It is truly amazing that despite Cashman saying many times directly to several in the media that ‘Joba is a RP now’. Some still cling to the fantasy that he will become a solid reliable SP. Too funny.

  154. Against All Odds January 3rd, 2011 at 3:43 pm

    # BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 3:35 pm

    Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 3:24 pm

    ————————

    Gassing it out for 1 inning is a lot different than being able to hold your velocity for 6 or 7 innings.
    +++++++++++++
    And yet, he had outings in 2009 where he was throwing 97 late in game. I read some analysis on another blog where the poster made a good case that Eiland was trying to get Joba throw to contact so as to go later in games rather than throw harder. When Joba came back from ASB in 2009, he just threw like he wanted to, and his strikeouts went up and he had great outings.

    I’d like to see them let him start and pitch like a power pitcher…even if he empties the tank at 4 innings. I want to see him learn pitch and not try to muzzle his talent.
    ———————————–

    That’s what they did which was muzzle him. Don’t show emotion, don’t pump your fist, conserve your energy, pitch to contact, don’t throw, etc.

  155. BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 3:45 pm

    Cashman–

    “Bubba Crosby is our starting CFer”

    “Jesus Montero will be given every opportunity to win the starting C position”

    “Joba is a starter”

    I don’t know why some people continue to take Cashman’s quotes at face value. time changes things, and his position changes as the events around him change.

  156. BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 3:47 pm

    Against All Odds January 3rd, 2011 at 3:43 pm

    Exactly…remove the muzzle and let’s see what this kid has. He was selected in 1st round and shot through the minor leagues for a reason. He has a world of talent. To muzzle that talent due to the misguided approach the Yankees have taken is almost criminal. He deserves a 2nd chance with no muzzle to see what he can do.

  157. BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 3:50 pm

    I guess the same people would have traded Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee, Liriano, Santana, and many other young prospects before they hit their stride.

    Not every young pitcher is a Lincecum or Gooden right out of the chute.

  158. Against All Odds January 3rd, 2011 at 3:51 pm

    # Vineyard Yankee January 3rd, 2011 at 3:40 pm

    It is truly amazing that despite Cashman saying many times directly to several in the media that ‘Joba is a RP now’. Some still cling to the fantasy that he will become a solid reliable SP. Too funny.
    —————————————————–

    Funny….maybe but in reality it shows how inflexible Cashman is. Once he makes his mind up about something then he doesn’t budge. Unless it’s a free agent than he just caters to their every whim. If Lee signed with the Yankees and Andy came back there wouldn’t even be a thought about Joba rejoining the rotation. The only person he would replace is Aj and Aj isn’t going anywhere with his large contract. When things don’t go according to plan you have to change. The fact is Cashman painted himself into a corner where he was banking on Lee and Andy to take up two spots in the 2011 rotation. He felt confident enough to pass on Haren and tell Joba in spring that he is a reliever going forward. Fast forword to 2011: Lee is a Philly, Andy might retire, and Joba is a dime a dozen bullpen arm.

  159. BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 3:53 pm

    AldotheApache January 3rd, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    I would MUCH rather see any ready young arm, trusting in girardi’s and rothchild’s judgment, than any retread like Garcia.
    ++++++++++++
    Exactly!

  160. Against All Odds January 3rd, 2011 at 3:54 pm

    # BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 3:47 pm

    Against All Odds January 3rd, 2011 at 3:43 pm

    Exactly…remove the muzzle and let’s see what this kid has. He was selected in 1st round and shot through the minor leagues for a reason. He has a world of talent. To muzzle that talent due to the misguided approach the Yankees have taken is almost criminal. He deserves a 2nd chance with no muzzle to see what he can do.
    ——————————————————-

    He does deserve a 2nd chance to at least compete for a spot. No one is saying guarantee him a spot but do the Yankees honestly think that Mitre is a better option than Chamberlain.

  161. BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 3:55 pm

    Against All Odds January 3rd, 2011 at 3:51 pm

    # Vineyard Yankee January 3rd, 2011 at 3:40 pm

    It is truly amazing that despite Cashman saying many times directly to several in the media that ‘Joba is a RP now’. Some still cling to the fantasy that he will become a solid reliable SP. Too funny.
    —————————————————–

    Funny….maybe but in reality it shows how inflexible Cashman is
    +++++++++++++++
    I don’t think Cash is infleible. He often goes back on his statements as my prior posts showed.

  162. Against All Odds January 3rd, 2011 at 3:59 pm

    # BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 3:55 pm

    Against All Odds January 3rd, 2011 at 3:51 pm

    # Vineyard Yankee January 3rd, 2011 at 3:40 pm

    It is truly amazing that despite Cashman saying many times directly to several in the media that ‘Joba is a RP now’. Some still cling to the fantasy that he will become a solid reliable SP. Too funny.
    —————————————————–

    Funny….maybe but in reality it shows how inflexible Cashman is
    +++++++++++++++
    I don’t think Cash is infleible. He often goes back on his statements as my prior posts showed.
    ———————————–

    Maybe inflexible is the wrong word how about stubborn instead.

  163. BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 4:00 pm

    Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    Jerkface –

    By Joba’s “career stats” you mean his one season as a starter. A performance that was so uninspiring to Yankee decision makers that he lost his job the following spring to Phil Hughes.
    +++++++++
    You REALLY need to go back and look at his pitching log and compare it to any other 23 year old starter. At one point, he was 8-2 with a 3.73 era. He was very good until the Joba rules kicked in. Any other team would have continued his development as a starter, and he might be at least a #2 by now.

  164. BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 4:02 pm

    Against All Odds January 3rd, 2011 at 3:59 pm

    Maybe inflexible is the wrong word how about stubborn instead.
    ++++++++
    Disingenuous might be better.

  165. Against All Odds January 3rd, 2011 at 4:03 pm

    # BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 4:02 pm

    Against All Odds January 3rd, 2011 at 3:59 pm

    Maybe inflexible is the wrong word how about stubborn instead.
    ++++++++
    Disingenuous might be better.
    ———————————–

    I can live with that

  166. BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 4:03 pm

    Chip–

    Here is that pitching log for your convenience.

    http://www.baseball-reference......;year=2009

    You might back up your comments with the facts next time you make such a judgment.

  167. West Coast Yankee Fan January 3rd, 2011 at 4:04 pm

    I think Yankee management has a reason for Joba not starting. My guess is it’s connected to his shoulder injury and his inability to sustain throwing at an increased velocity for 6-7 innings. Perhaps it’s something else or a combination of things. Whatever it is, they are not going to publicize it and decrease whatever little trade value he has left and effect his psyche even more.

  168. West Coast Yankee Fan January 3rd, 2011 at 4:07 pm

    I mean, given the Yankees situation with their rotation, if Joba was even a remotely viable option why on earth would the Yankees not go there? It defies credulity to think they would be so dogmatic about this without cause.

  169. BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 4:10 pm

    Chip==

    Just reviewing that 2009 season. in his forst 20 starts, he gave up 3 runs or less in 16 games, gave up 4 runs in 3 games, and had one bad outing where he gave up 5 runs. His pitch count may have been bothersome to Eiland, but that kid was off to a great start.

    Your comment about how ineffective he was was totally wrong.

  170. BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 4:12 pm

    Or it is more of Cashman just blowing smoke out his butt to appease the media. He obviously doesn’t care whether or not he changes course later against his earlier comments.

    If Joba hurt his shoulder in 2008, then his performance in 2009 would have been hard to explain. I don’t buy it.

  171. SullyLV January 3rd, 2011 at 7:00 pm

    I have been a fan since 60-61 and would like to think that i am a die hart fan.The one good thing about getting older is i don’t let a tough lose bother me as they used to.Watching the Yankees the last 16 years and being in the playoffs for 15 of them has been special.Being in 7 WS and winning 5 of them along with a number of pennants.This leads me to the 2011 pitching rotation of the Yanks.I hope A.Pettitte retires and i say that with a heavy heart.Pettitte has the heart of a lion but, it is time to see what the rookies have.I do have mixed feelings about getting another veteran and or going with 2 rookies in the 4 and 5 spot.I really want to see what Nova,phelps,Warren and others have to offer.I would like to see the Yankees get younger in the pitching staff and it would cost less.There are many posts about picking up certain players and i could go with that also.If i have to lean one way or the other i’am going with the rookies whether right or wrong.

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