Yankees make it official with Feliciano
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 03, 2011 
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The Yankees made the Pedro Feliciano signing official today. Here’s the announcement.
The New York Yankees today announced they have signed free agent left-handed pitcher Pedro Feliciano to a two-year contract, extending through 2012 with a club option for 2013.
Feliciano, 34, has led the Majors in relief outings in each of the last three seasons (2008-10), and his 266 total appearances over the stretch set a Major League record for most games pitched over any three-year span. His 344 relief outings since the start of 2007 also mark an all-time record for most appearances over a four-year stretch.
Feliciano owns a 22-19 record with four saves and a 3.31 ERA (372.1 IP, 137 ER) in 459 career relief appearances over parts of eight seasons, all with the Mets (2002-04, ’06-10). His 459 games pitched rank second on the Mets all-time list, trailing only John Franco (695). In 2005, he pitched in Japan for the Fukuoka Softbank Hawks of the Pacific League, appearing in 37 games and going 3-2 with a 3.89 ERA (37.0 IP, 16 ER).
In his career, Feliciano has held left-handed batters to a .214 (146-for-683) batting average with 210 strikeouts and just 10 home runs, including a .211 (26-for-123, 0 HR) mark in 2010. Of his 459 career appearances, 398 have been 1.0-inning or less. In 30 career relief appearances against AL East opponents, he is 1-1 with a 2.48 ERA (29.0 IP, 8 ER) and a .202 (21-for-104) opponents batting average.
In 2010, Feliciano went 3-6 with a 3.30 ERA (62.2 IP, 23 ER) in 92 relief appearances for the Mets, surpassing his own franchise record in games pitched (previous was 88 games in 2009). His 92 appearances tied the Dodgers’ Mike Marshall (1973) for fourth place on Baseball’s all-time single-season games pitched list, trailing only Marshall (106 games in 1974), Pittsburgh’s Kent Tekulve (94 in 1979) and Salomon Torres (94 in 2006).
A native of Puerto Rico, Feliciano was originally selected by the Los Angeles Dodgers in the 31st round of the 1995 First-Year Player Draft. With his first appearance as a Yankee, he will become the 110th player all-time to play in a Major League game with both the Mets and Yankees.
Took a while to make it official but it’s still a good signing.
DaSaint007 January 3rd, 2011 at 3:15 pm
I’ve considered this Joba thing all summer and I’m torn.
What would be better?
Rotation A: CC, Hughes, AJ, Nova, Joba
Bullpen A: Rivera, Soriano, Rauch, Robertson, Logan, Feliciano, Mitre
Rotation B: CC, Hughes, AJ, Francis/Garcia, Nova
Bullpen B: Rivera, Soriano, Robertson, Joba, Logan, Feliciano, Mitre
———————
I prefer scenario C where the Yankees find someone willing to give the Yankees something of value for Joba Chamberlain.
To the Joba folks…
If we were talking about the Joba from a couple of years ago I would be all for putting him back in the rotation.
Do that – sign Soriano – you’re good to go.
But we’re not talking about that Joba Chamberlain. That shoulder injury robbed him of something. He made no effort to win the rotation job last year – showing up so out of shape it was embarassing. I think we all need to come to accept the fact that Joba Chamberlain is going the way of a lot of highly touted prospects before him – guys like Homer Bailey, Micah Owings, Ryan (Space Needle) Anderson.
Rockies keep Cargo off the free agent list til after the 2017 season. 7 years/$80M apparently.
Homer Bailey is only 24, and improved last year. Scripts not up on him.
I think Cashman’s performance so far this winter can be gauged by the number of people on this blog calling for Joba to be given another chance in the starting rotation. That ship has already sailed. Three days into 2011 and desperation is setting in!
“Homer Bailey is only 24, and improved last year. Scripts not up on him.”
Improved from a 93 ERA+ in 2009 to a 90 ERA+ in 2010?
Jerkface -
Not sure if you saw on the last thread – but when you jumped all over that guy for comparing Joba to Jaret Wright keep something in mind.
When you talk about Joba’s “Career Stats” as a starter you’re talking about basically one season and the Yankees themselves were so disatisfied with that season that he lost his job to Phil Hughes the following spring.
Improved from a 93 ERA+ in 2009 to a 90 ERA+ in 2010?
–
Struck out more walked less, improved his ERA, and his H/9,HR/9, and BB/9 all declined. Some of them were slight but still. He was only 24.
He had a 2.50 K:BB
When you talk about Joba’s “Career Stats” as a starter you’re talking about basically one season and the Yankees themselves were so disatisfied with that season that he lost his job to Phil Hughes the following spring.
–
I didn’t really understand the Joba = Jaret Wright gag, I was more jumping on Vineyard Yank for propping up Wright and bashing Joba. Wright has had 1 good season ever. And he is out of baseball.
the Yankees feelings on Joba does not matter in this discussion, because the yankees are not infallible. They can be wrong, or even make the wrong decision. I know that their decision is what decides if Joba is a starter or reliever, but for fans discussing which is better, their input does not matter.
Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 3:23 pm
Homer Bailey is only 24, and improved last year. Scripts not up on him.
—————-
Ok, so I’ll remove Bailey and raise you a Zach Duke, Ollie Perez, Dontrelle Willis…
Bailey went from really objectionable to merely objectionable.
It was, at best, a marginal improvement across the board.
But his WAR did go from .3 to .5, so he’s got that going for him.
Jerkface January 3rd, 2011 at 3:30 pm
When you talk about Joba’s “Career Stats” as a starter you’re talking about basically one season and the Yankees themselves were so disatisfied with that season that he lost his job to Phil Hughes the following spring.
–
I didn’t really understand the Joba = Jaret Wright gag, I was more jumping on Vineyard Yank for propping up Wright and bashing Joba. Wright has had 1 good season ever. And he is out of baseball.
the Yankees feelings on Joba does not matter in this discussion, because the yankees are not infallible. They can be wrong, or even make the wrong decision. I know that their decision is what decides if Joba is a starter or reliever, but for fans discussing which is better, their input does not matter.
————–
I disagree if for no other reason than that the people making the decisions for the Yankees have boatloads of more information and experience making these judgement calls than we do. Their opinion should be considered before we “experts” go off spouting what we think should happen.
Jerkface,
The Joba/Jaret thing was bc of a reference to Joba averaging ~5 IP/start
Actually if you compare Joba’s inconsistent ’09 season with Wright’s ’06 it ain’t pretty.
Mell -
For the sake of argument I’m willing to concede on Bailey. There are plenty of other once-highly-touted pitchers who have flopped for Joba to be considered with. It is hardly a small club.
Joba 2 years ago was viewed as a can’t miss starter. He was drafted in the first round of the 2006 draft.
He pitched fine in 2009 until August. Through his start on July 29th, he had an ERA of 3.58. He then had a very rocky August and September.
Last year he pitched well as well. His ERA of 4.40 is not outstanding, but when married to a 2.98 FIP and a 3.34 xFIP it is more than OK. He had two bad months in 2010 – May and July – but otherwise threw very well.
The “competition” between Hughes and Joba last year proves nothing. The Yanks were going with Hughes anyway.
If there is some secret reason why Joba can’t start Cashman should say so. But from the facts in evidence, he ought to be given the opportunity.
It’s OFFICIAL ladies and gents ! Wow, Cashman is rolling now………..NOT.
Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 3:38 pm
Joba 2 years ago was viewed as a can’t miss starter. He was drafted in the first round of the 2006 draft.
He pitched fine in 2009 until August. Through his start on July 29th, he had an ERA of 3.58. He then had a very rocky August and September.
Last year he pitched well as well. His ERA of 4.40 is not outstanding, but when married to a 2.98 FIP and a 3.34 xFIP it is more than OK. He had two bad months in 2010 – May and July – but otherwise threw very well.
The “competition” between Hughes and Joba last year proves nothing. The Yanks were going with Hughes anyway.
If there is some secret reason why Joba can’t start Cashman should say so. But from the facts in evidence, he ought to be given the opportunity.
—————————–
Actually you’re quite wrong on a few facts:
1. Joba wasn’t a first round pick
2. Joba wasn’t considered a can’t miss starter
http://projectprospect.com/art.....hamberlain
And I’m not sure how you can say that the “competition” between Joba and Hughes was meaningless – Joba was a starter in 2009, Hughes was a reliever – Joba was so wonderful a starter that the Yankees reversed their roles in 2010 after what, 2 spring training starts?
Big Al -
If you’re out there:
Gosh darn it! We now have a dilemma.
(We drove the Q5)
“1. Joba wasn’t a first round pick”
Sandwich round is still considered the 1st round by most.
“1. Joba wasn’t a first round pick”
Wrong. He was the 41st pick – sandwich – but technically first round.
“2. Joba wasn’t considered a can’t miss starter”
Wrong again. He was generally considered a can’t miss starter.
Repost:
heyman: Exactly. A bit of fun in a ‘no news’ time of year.
Jerkweed: Contrary to popular disbelief you are not the blog monitor here. You don’t like the post ? Scroll past it.
“Joba was a starter in 2009, Hughes was a reliever – Joba was so wonderful a starter that the Yankees reversed their roles in 2010 after what, 2 spring training starts?”
That just proves how meaningless spring training “competitions” are.
Wave Your Hat -
Joba was very up and down in the beginning of 2009. I remember being frustrated because it seemed he’d take a step forward and two back, or two forward and one back. He had good starts, but he had godawful starts and I was at one in person, so I clearly remember that and it was in June. His best starts were the three immediately following the All-Star Break. It was like he poured everything he had into those three starts. We all the know the rest of the year was a mishmosh.
Doreen -
Well tell me, what did you think?
It is truly amazing that despite Cashman saying many times directly to several in the media that ‘Joba is a RP now’. Some still cling to the fantasy that he will become a solid reliable SP. Too funny.
contrary to popular disbelief? So, wait, what? If you say something stupid like Jaret Wright is a super-star compared to Joba when he is out of baseball and averaged 88 IP a year for his career and a 5 ERA, well… I’m going to call it out.
WYH -
I know a lot of people thought he was a can’t miss starter, but not everyone felt that way.
I would like to know more about Joba’s history before he was signed, and why he fell to the Yankees. If he was can’t miss, he certainly would have gone sooner, no?
Wave -
Chamberlain dropped to the supplemental round because of concerns about his weight and arm issues – both of which have been problems with the Yankees.
Doreen-
I went to the game logs from 2009 and aggregated them. Trust me, through Joba’s start on July 29th he had a 3.58 ERA. Not every start in that period belongs in the HOF, but overall he was very good until then.
Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 3:46 pm
“Joba was a starter in 2009, Hughes was a reliever – Joba was so wonderful a starter that the Yankees reversed their roles in 2010 after what, 2 spring training starts?”
That just proves how meaningless spring training “competitions” are.
——————-
Doesn’t it also suggest to you, maybe somewhere in the back of your brain where some intelligence may still exist – that the Yankees didn’t think very much of Joba’s performance as a starter?
Doreen-
I believe he had arm troubles prior to being signed. From what I remember, he was a high-risk/high-reward type pitcher (like Brackman coming off surgery)
“I would like to know more about Joba’s history before he was signed, and why he fell to the Yankees. If he was can’t miss, he certainly would have gone sooner, no?”
He had some forearm trouble I believe was the biggest reason. Body type probably didn’t help much. Typical of the risk the Yankees have been willing to take of late (see also: Brackman) in the latter part of the 1st round.
Doreen January 3rd, 2011 at 3:48 pm
WYH -
I know a lot of people thought he was a can’t miss starter, but not everyone felt that way.
I would like to know more about Joba’s history before he was signed, and why he fell to the Yankees. If he was can’t miss, he certainly would have gone sooner, no?
———————-
Doreen – all draft reports site the same two concerns with Joba – weight issues and the health of his right arm.
Here’s one such report:
http://yankeeprospects.blogspo.....ain-3.html
(Shelley Duncan high five to Mell)
Doreen-
Joba had triceps tendenitis in 2006, which put him down the list some in the draft. But he did go #41, which is pretty good.
Baseball America ranked him in the top 100 prospects in baseball before the 2007 season. Baseball Prospectus projected him to be outstanding as a major league starter before both the 2008 and 2009 season.
On this blog, the excitement ranked with Betances, Banuelos and Brackman all rolled into one.
I love this line:
Reaching his Ceiling: Time will tell whether or not Chamberlain’s triceps injury is serious. I expect that it is not. His weight problem will on the other hand be a constant issue, and similar problems have derailed the careers of many a Bartolo Colon.
Big Al -
I told you. We have a dilemma.
It was bigger than the Tiguan, but smaller than the RDX. It was one of the best test drives of a car I ever took. It was quiet, smooth, great acceleration, tight. It was beautiful inside and out – the only thing we didn’t like was the “bump” in the center of the back seat floor (AWD?). The gadgets are beyond cool. There’s even an automatic hatch closer button. We both drove the car and were both comfortable.
We are very tempted, but the cost is higher than we originally were going to go.
We were too pooped to go back to VW today, but I am going back to sit in the Tiguan and drive it again (different dealership). We’re also going to compare features again. There’s a lot that’s similar. But the drive itself was distinctive.
I told my husband, one of the cars is me everyday and one of the cars is me dressed up. I don’t even know what the tipping point will be.
So we have a dilemma.
“Doesn’t it also suggest to you, maybe somewhere in the back of your brain where some intelligence may still exist – that the Yankees didn’t think very much of Joba’s performance as a starter?”
So what?
Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 3:54 pm
Doreen-
Joba had triceps tendenitis in 2006, which put him down the list some in the draft. But he did go #41, which is pretty good.
Baseball America ranked him in the top 100 prospects in baseball before the 2007 season. Baseball Prospectus projected him to be outstanding as a major league starter before both the 2008 and 2009 season.
On this blog, the excitement ranked with Betances, Banuelos and Brackman all rolled into one.
———————-
And when he first came up he justified all that excitement.
But that was 3 years ago.
Where is the progression? Where is the growth (other than around the middle)? He got here and just stopped.
Big Al -
Also, we got a good price right off the bat at Audi. No incessant back and forth. And a very fair offer on our trade-in.
Jerkweed:
Obviously some humor on my part. Because you have no sense of humor is not my problem. As previously posted; ‘You don’t like the post, scroll past it’.
Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 3:55 pm
“Doesn’t it also suggest to you, maybe somewhere in the back of your brain where some intelligence may still exist – that the Yankees didn’t think very much of Joba’s performance as a starter?”
So what?
—————–
So if the Yankees – an organization with people who have been scouting and evaluating pitching a lot longer than you have – don’t think much of Joba as a starter – why is your opinion that he would be a good starter – the right one?
WYH -
Re: Joba early 2009. His ERA was good, and I remember at the time saying to myself, well, at least he’s not letting his runners score, and I saw that as the silver lining. But he was a slow worker, he shook off his catcher A LOT, he walked or went to full counts on so many hitters it was painful. But he did get out of a lot of jams. He also threw too many pitches.
I don’t know – I just think there’s more to the Joba stuff that we can know.
Oh and hey, if Larry Rothschild can fix Chamberlain and turn him back into a viable major league starter and also get AJ to be more consistent then Cashman will get my vote for Executive of the Year.
My comments shouldn’t be construd as me thinking Joba is a talentless hack – he’s obviously talented and he showed that in how he shot through the minors – but talent isn’t enough at this level.
‘Where is the progression? Where is the growth (other than around the middle)? He got here and just stopped’
===========
Chip:
More like dead in the water. He apparently is getting alot of exercise on his elbow this off season though. Bending it while sitting at the bar with that full mug of beer.
Thanks, guys, for the info on Joba pre-signing.
Doreen January 3rd, 2011 at 3:59 pm
WYH -
Re: Joba early 2009. His ERA was good, and I remember at the time saying to myself, well, at least he’s not letting his runners score, and I saw that as the silver lining. But he was a slow worker, he shook off his catcher A LOT, he walked or went to full counts on so many hitters it was painful. But he did get out of a lot of jams. He also threw too many pitches.
I don’t know – I just think there’s more to the Joba stuff that we can know.
—————————-
Doreen -
Joba was in love with striking people out and doing his little shtick on the mound – rather than letting hitters put the ball in play he was looking for the K. Nothing wrong with that – but it did lead to a lot of deep counts.
As Crash Davis once said, “Strike outs are Fascist, throw more ground balls, they’re more Democratic.”
“why is your opinion that he would be a good starter – the right one?”
This is the comment section of a Yankee baseball blog. The Yanks have made many, many mistakes in the past, and one of the points of a comment section of a Yankee baseball blog is to point out where the individual commenters believe that the Yanks are making further mistakes.
If they don’t give Joba another opportunity the Yanks are making such a mistake, for reasons I and others have pointed out. Whether Joba will actually be a good starter I have never said, but I certainly believe from all the public evidence he can be.
If you choose to take the position that the Yanks either never make a mistake or can never be questioned about their choices do so – you certainly have company here – but don’t expect those of us who do not so elect to conform to your tastes.
Vineyard Yankee January 3rd, 2011 at 4:00 pm
‘Where is the progression? Where is the growth (other than around the middle)? He got here and just stopped’
===========
Chip:
More like dead in the water. He apparently is getting alot of exercise on his elbow this off season though. Bending it while sitting at the bar with that full mug of beer.
———————–
I hope you’re wrong – I really hope Joba shows up looking like Brian Bruney did his last couple of years with the Yankees
Chip:
Agree, Joba does have some talent buried in there somewhere. I would say that Joba just isn’t dedicated to becoming the best he can be. He needs to put in alot of hard work and to seek help from Rothschild to give it his best shot at becoming a success.
Doreen-
Nothing Joba did is inconsistent with a young pitcher in the process of maturing.
Doreen -
I think you and your husband should just treat yourselves, why not, you both deserve it.
All make so many sacrifices when raising our children, so at this point in time, it’s only fitting you splurge.
I got the 4th Disney baseball figure today, real cute.
‘I hope you’re wrong – I really hope Joba shows up looking like Brian Bruney did his last couple of years with the Yankees’.
==================
There have been a couple of videos (utube I believe ) which has shown him at basketball games having a grand time. One was a Celtics game in Boston I believe.
Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 4:02 pm
“why is your opinion that he would be a good starter – the right one?”
This is the comment section of a Yankee baseball blog. Thanks, wasn’t sure where I was
The Yanks have made many, many mistakes in the past, and one of the points of a comment section of a Yankee baseball blog is to point out where the individual commenters believe that the Yanks are making further mistakes. Yes, but acting like you actually know better than the Yankees just makes you sound like a dellusional idiot
If they don’t give Joba another opportunity the Yanks are making such a mistake, for reasons I and others have pointed out. Whether Joba will actually be a good starter I have never said, but I certainly believe from all the public evidence he can be. How do you back up that comment? There have been countless players who have come up with just as much hype as Joba and failed miserably – perhaps Joba is just one of those guys. Perhaps, just perhaps, the Yankees internally don’t believe his shoulder can handle starting. I know it’s a tough concept – but could it be that the Yankees actually know more about their players than you do?
If you choose to take the position that the Yanks either never make a mistake or can never be questioned about their choices do so – you certainly have company here – but don’t expect those of us who do not so elect to conform to your tastes. I’ve never taken that position, but I’ve also not seen anything from Chamberlain to suggest that he thinks he should be starting either. In fact, Joba during the 2009 playoffs said he prefers to relieve so that he doesn’t have to think and can just throw. And when given the opportunity to compete for a spot in the rotation, Chamberlain threw it away with his lack of off-season work ethic.
Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 4:05 pm
Doreen-
Nothing Joba did is inconsistent with a young pitcher in the process of maturing.
——————–
except for the part where he forgot to mature.
Other than that he’s right on target.
By the time he’s 30 or so he might be ready to start again.
Chip, you need to get a grip.
Obviously some humor on my part. Because you have no sense of humor is not my problem.
–
Your humor is bad and you should feel bad.
Vineyard Yankee January 3rd, 2011 at 4:04 pm
Chip:
Agree, Joba does have some talent buried in there somewhere. I would say that Joba just isn’t dedicated to becoming the best he can be. He needs to put in alot of hard work and to seek help from Rothschild to give it his best shot at becoming a success.
——————
Having never met the man I’m not going to get into what he’s thinking, but part of me wonders if he believes that all he has to do is keep showing up and soon enough he’ll be handed Mo’s job – so why work until then.
Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 4:09 pm
Chip, you need to get a grip.
————————
To quote you, quoting someone else:
YAWN
Lol play nice everybody. The Yankees DID sign Pedro Feliciano after all…
Doreen – been following your car shopping. I’m very partial to Hondas since my first Prelude in ’79. We’re thinking about a CRV next time around. How did that compare to the others you looked at?
I think Yankee management has a reason for Joba not starting. My guess is it’s connected to his shoulder injury and his inability to sustain throwing at an increased velocity for 6-7 innings. Perhaps it’s something else or a combination of things. Whatever it is, they are not going to publicize it and decrease whatever little trade value he has left and effect his psyche even more.
I mean, given the Yankees situation with their rotation, if Joba was even a remotely viable option why on earth would the Yankees not go there? It defies credulity to think they would be so dogmatic about this without cause.
I just can’t believe we’re 4 years into “Joba Reliever vs. Joba Starter” when the question at this point should be “Joba Yankee vs. Joba trade bait”
West Coast Yankee Fan January 3rd, 2011 at 4:18 pm
I think Yankee management has a reason for Joba not starting. My guess is it’s connected to his shoulder injury and his inability to sustain throwing at an increased velocity for 6-7 innings. Perhaps it’s something else or a combination of things. Whatever it is, they are not going to publicize it and decrease whatever little trade value he has left and effect his psyche even more.
I mean, given the Yankees situation with their rotation, if Joba was even a remotely viable option why on earth would the Yankees not go there? It defies credulity to think they would be so dogmatic about this without cause.
———————–
With you on this 100%
Chip-
I began this argument by pointing out that Joba’s career ERA as a starter – 4.18 – is better than Hughes’ ERA in 2010 – 4.19. You did not argue with that, but claimed he was regressing badly.
I then posted numbers that showed he was not regressing badly – excellent FIP and xFIP numbers among them, but that his bad periods were limited to 2 months in 2009 and 2 months in 2010.
You never argued with that either, but then claimed that his failure to win the 2010 ST “competition” proved he wouldn’t succeed as a starter. I pointed out that ST competitions proved nothing, and you didn’t argue with that either.
Instead, you then told me that I was an idiot for not understanding that the Yanks were always right.
I then told you you could believe that, but I chose not to. You then dared me to post reasons why I thought Joba could be a starter.
LOL. My dog chases her tail, but I choose not to.
REPOST
Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 3:23 pm
Jerkface –
By Joba’s “career stats” you mean his one season as a starter. A performance that was so uninspiring to Yankee decision makers that he lost his job the following spring to Phil Hughes.
+++++++++
You REALLY need to go back and look at his pitching log and compare it to any other 23 year old starter. At one point, he was 8-2 with a 3.73 era. He was very good until the Joba rules kicked in. Any other team would have continued his development as a starter, and he might be at least a #2 by now.
Here is that pitching log for your convenience.
http://www.baseball-reference……;year=2009
You might back up your comments with the facts next time you make such a judgment.
Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 4:19 pm
Chip-
I began this argument by pointing out that Joba’s career ERA as a starter – 4.18 – is better than Hughes’ ERA in 2010 – 4.19. You did not argue with that, but claimed he was regressing badly.
I then posted numbers that showed he was not regressing badly – excellent FIP and xFIP numbers among them, but that his bad periods were limited to 2 months in 2009 and 2 months in 2010.
You never argued with that either, but then claimed that his failure to win the 2010 ST “competition” proved he wouldn’t succeed as a starter. I pointed out that ST competitions proved nothing, and you didn’t argue with that either.
Instead, you then told me that I was an idiot for not understanding that the Yanks were always right.
I then told you you could believe that, but I chose not to. You then dared me to post reasons why I thought Joba could be a starter.
LOL. My dog chases her tail, but I choose not to.
——————
No, what I said to you was that the 2010 ST competition showed that the Yankees – for one reason or another – had no desire in going forward with Joba as a starter. I never said I knew the reason why that was, nor would I because I don’t assume the Yankees are going to tell the general public everything they’re thinking.
I called you an idiot because you were sounding like one by claiming that if the Yankees didn’t put Joba back in the rotation they were making a mistake without knowing all the facts as to why they lifted him in the first place.
I don’t recall ever daring you to do anything – as I’m not twelve I tend not to dare people to do things – I did point out that I have questions about Joba’s desire to work at his craft and stay in shape. Which you never responded to.
BTW–many here seem to forget that Joba came down with a bad case of the flu in ST 2010, and was very weak in his first few starts. There was no case of bad conditioning as much as a case of bad luck or bad timing.
As for me saying that the Yankees are always right…I didn’t say that either – just that they have more information on their players than you do and that they are better at evaluating talent than you do.
How much of this conversation was actually on the blog and how much was transmitted to you via the voices in your head?
Jerkweed:
I like it and don’t feel bad at all. Don’t like it ? (you obviously won’t or can’t scroll past it) so take a hike.
BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 4:28 pm
BTW–many here seem to forget that Joba came down with a bad case of the flu in ST 2010, and was very weak in his first few starts. There was no case of bad conditioning as much as a case of bad luck or bad timing.
————–
BoJo – I saw Joba Chamberlain, if he’s the 230lbs that the Yankees listed him at then I’m Brian Cashman posting in disguise.
Also, the Yankees releasesd a statement in 2010 that sadi they were very happy with Joba’s work efforts and desire. I don’t know why those rumors continue to be brought up on blogs, but they are wrong..
“I did point out that I have questions about Joba’s desire to work at his craft and stay in shape. Which you never responded to.”
I’m sorry, I don’t have your ability to see into the hearts and minds of people I have never met, so I don’t see the point of my speculating about them. I’ll leave that speculation to the fortunate few such as yourself.
But on the numbers, Joba should be given another opportunity to start.
Chip–
I saw him too, throwing 98mph late in season. I don’t care if he was 500lbs…Wells, CC, and others have proven weight has little to do with talent.
BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 4:26 pm
REPOST
Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 3:23 pm
Jerkface –
By Joba’s “career stats” you mean his one season as a starter. A performance that was so uninspiring to Yankee decision makers that he lost his job the following spring to Phil Hughes.
+++++++++
You REALLY need to go back and look at his pitching log and compare it to any other 23 year old starter. At one point, he was 8-2 with a 3.73 era. He was very good until the Joba rules kicked in. Any other team would have continued his development as a starter, and he might be at least a #2 by now.
Here is that pitching log for your convenience.
http://www.baseball-reference&…..;year=2009
You might back up your comments with the facts next time you make such a judgment.
—————————–
He also got hurt.
Bottom line – the waiver wires are littered with highly touted pitchers who have put together 3 good months or even a good full season and never did so again.
Did the Yankees screw him up – absolutely – he should have been going through all these Joba Rules in the minors where results don’t matter.
But what’s done is done and thinking that the current Joba can be what Joba 07 was is asking to be disappointed.
He’s fat, he’s been hurt – and from my own observations he just doesn’t care enough to improve. Frankly I hope he proves me and other doubters wrong. But right now he’s more Dontrelle Willis than he is Zack Greinke.
‘Having never met the man I’m not going to get into what he’s thinking, but part of me wonders if he believes that all he has to do is keep showing up and soon enough he’ll be handed Mo’s job – so why work until then’
==================
Chip:
I think that there is something to be said for working hard to maximize ones potential. Joba is just not on that page, perhaps not focused or interested in the big dollar contract if he does indeed shine at some point. If I were a GM I would be extremely cautious giving him any type of a long term contract down the road for substantial dollars.
He has the makings of playing hard only in the contract walk year written all over him.
Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 4:30 pm
“I did point out that I have questions about Joba’s desire to work at his craft and stay in shape. Which you never responded to.”
I’m sorry, I don’t have your ability to see into the hearts and minds of people I have never met, so I don’t see the point of my speculating about them. I’ll leave that speculation to the fortunate few such as yourself.
But on the numbers, Joba should be given another opportunity to start.
—————————–
And are you adult enough to admit, as I do, that there may be factors that go beyond numbers as to why the Yankees aren’t starting him?
West Coast Yankee Fan
January 3rd, 2011 at 4:18 pm
===============
Good post. Toby feeling better today ?
Wave -
I agree with the notion that given where the Yankees are in terms of options that if Joba can start he should be in the mix. But as WCYF said, there must be a reason why the Yankees don’t want him to start.
They’re not going to cut off their nose to spite their face and not start him for giggles – just because we are not privvy to those reasons doesn’t mean they do not exist.
Chip==
When exactly did Joba hurt his shoulder? Are you referring to his stiffness in late 2008, or some later date?
Becaue if you are talking anbout 2008, then his performance in 2009 should not have been 8-2 with a 3.73 ERA through his first 20 starts.
In other words, I don;t buy that.
To me, it seems more likely that Eiland preferred Hughes over Joba because Hughes was easier to cach. Joba never bought into Eoiland’s pitch to contact approach…not should he have.
How many times can Cashman answer the same question posed to him with the same answer: ‘Joba is not in the mix to be a SP, he is a RP now’. My goodness.
“And are you adult enough to admit, as I do, that there may be factors that go beyond numbers as to why the Yankees aren’t starting him?”
If there are, then neither you nor I know them so there is no point discussing them. So I don’t.
I do know that the Yanks have made many mistakes, and no doubt had what they thought were good reasons at the time for doing so.
So arguing backwards from the existence of a fact (here, the Yanks not starting Joba)…
to the presence of a secret reason justifying the wisdom of that decision…
to whatever that secret reason is (injury, weight, desire, whatever “reason” you happen to concoct)…
and then using that derived reason to prove the correctness of the decision justifying the original fact…
just doesn’t mean much to me. Now I’m done.
C.C. and Boomer Wells with weight issues is a different matter. It’s all about repeating mechanics which C.C. does and Wells did so well.
It remains to be seen if Larry Rothschild can get that message across to Chamberlain.
BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 4:42 pm
Chip==
When exactly did Joba hurt his shoulder? Are you referring to his stiffness in late 2008, or some later date?
Becaue if you are talking anbout 2008, then his performance in 2009 should not have been 8-2 with a 3.73 ERA through his first 20 starts.
In other words, I don;t buy that.
To me, it seems more likely that Eiland preferred Hughes over Joba because Hughes was easier to cach. Joba never bought into Eoiland’s pitch to contact approach…not should he have.
——————–
You think Dave Eiland got to make the decision by himself? I’m not buying that. Decisions on that level are organizational and go through a lot of guys including Nardi Contreras, Billy Connors, Girardi, and Cashman.
Vineyard Yankee January 3rd, 2011 at 4:43 pm
How many times can Cashman answer the same question posed to him with the same answer: ‘Joba is not in the mix to be a SP, he is a RP now’. My goodness.
++++++++++++++
REPOST
Cashman–
“Bubba Crosby is our starting CFer”
“Jesus Montero will be given every opportunity to win the starting C position”
“Joba is a starter”
I don’t know why some people continue to take Cashman’s quotes at face value. time changes things, and his position changes as the events around him change.
Cashman is disingenuous…always has been.
Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 4:44 pm
“And are you adult enough to admit, as I do, that there may be factors that go beyond numbers as to why the Yankees aren’t starting him?”
If there are, then neither you nor I know them so there is no point discussing them. So I don’t.
I do know that the Yanks have made many mistakes, and no doubt had what they thought were good reasons at the time for doing so.
So arguing backwards from the existence of a fact (here, the Yanks not starting Joba)…
to the presence of a secret reason justifying the wisdom of that decision…
to whatever that secret reason is (injury, weight, desire, whatever “reason” you happen to concoct)…
and then using that derived reason to prove the correctness of the decision justifying the original fact…
just doesn’t mean much to me. Now I’m done.
————————————
You do crack me up – you’re not willing to admit that the Yankees may have a reason that they don’t want to share with the public as to why they choose to do or not do something…my lord you are a dangerous blend of arrogant and ignorant.
But this is good – it gives me a frame of reference for future conversations with you.
He’s feeling better Vineyard thanks for asking.
BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 4:46 pm
Vineyard Yankee January 3rd, 2011 at 4:43 pm
How many times can Cashman answer the same question posed to him with the same answer: ‘Joba is not in the mix to be a SP, he is a RP now’. My goodness.
++++++++++++++
Cashman is disingenuous…always has been.
————————–
He’s not disingenuous – he’s doing his job.
There is no logical reason why you, I or Jon Heyman need to be looped in on everything the Yankees are thinking internally.
Very tough to deal with Scott Boras on signing Johnny Damon if Brian Cashman is saying publically “Oh BLEEP we’re stuck with Bubba Freaken Crosby as our lone option in CF. Of course we need Johnny Damon!!!”
Joba should be given another opportunity to start based on what ? Not signing Cliff Lee ? Cashman doing nothing ?
Perhaps just perhaps if Joba truly wanted to improve himself he would be down in Tampa right now working one on one with Rothschild day in and day out. I wonder why is isn’t stepping up ?
Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 4:44 pm
You think Dave Eiland got to make the decision by himself? I’m not buying that. Decisions on that level are organizational and go through a lot of guys including Nardi Contreras, Billy Connors, Girardi, and Cashman.
+++++++++++++
I think Eiland had an influence. I also think Joba had bad luck catching the flu in ST 2010, and even so, his later outings were good enough to make some still wonder if he would get the spot.
Again, there has never been any statement about his work ethic other than positive comments coming out of the Yankees. And they could easily have let such comments leak if they wanted to klick his butt. They did so with comments about Cano and his partying with Abreau and Melky…
Anyone questioning Joba’s work ethic or weight are just making stuff up.
BTW–Joba was always heavy…this is not like it is a new issue…and still he was a 1st round pick.
“But this is good – it gives me a frame of reference for future conversations with you.”
You are going to have future conversations with me? Oh Lord, what have I done to deserve this?
BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 4:31 pm
Chip–
I saw him too, throwing 98mph late in season. I don’t care if he was 500lbs…Wells, CC, and others have proven weight has little to do with talent.
————————
Sorry – I didn’t see this post – There are also a number of talented pitchers who have been derailed by weight issues:
Ponson and Colon among them.
And by the way – CC Sabathia this winter has worked to take off weight because he feels it can make him a better and healthier pitcher going forward.
Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 4:51 pm
“But this is good – it gives me a frame of reference for future conversations with you.”
You are going to have future conversations with me? Oh Lord, what have I done to deserve this?
——————-
YAWN
Vineyard Yankee January 3rd, 2011 at 4:49 pm
Joba should be given another opportunity to start based on what ? Not signing Cliff Lee ? Cashman doing nothing ?
Perhaps just perhaps if Joba truly wanted to improve himself he would be down in Tampa right now working one on one with Rothschild day in and day out. I wonder why is isn’t stepping up ?
—————
Well said.
Action (or inaction) can often speak louder than words.
Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 4:49 pm
Cahman is disingenuous…always has been.
————————–
He’s not disingenuous – he’s doing his job.
+++++++++++++
Being disingenuous is part of the job.
“But on the numbers, Joba should be given another opportunity to start.”
it goes without saying that he should.
maybe the reason that the yankees have so few available starters is decisions by cashman like this one with joba.
BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 4:50 pm
BTW–Joba was always heavy…this is not like it is a new issue…and still he was a 1st round pick.
————————–
And his weight issues were cited as one of the two main reasons why he slipped to the Sandwich round (aptly named considering)
“You are going to have future conversations with me? Oh Lord, what have I done to deserve this?
——————-
YAWN”
You don’t do YAWN well. Really, trisha is the only one to do it well. My borrowing of it the other day was clever, because no one had thought to borrow it before and because trisha and I get along despite our disagreements. But overuse is trite.
BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 4:53 pm
Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 4:49 pm
Cahman is disingenuous…always has been.
————————–
He’s not disingenuous – he’s doing his job.
+++++++++++++
Being disingenuous is part of the job.
——————
Fair enough – but the connotation by calling him disingenuous is that he’s doing something wrong or shady – not the case at all.
NJ Pete -
The CR-V is very attractive from the outside. Inside is mixed. I was looking to upgrade the interior, but there are some things about it that I didn’t like – just personal preference. It was not uncomfortable. For some reason, the salesman didn’t take me on a full-fledged test drive, so I only drove it around the large parking lot. It seemed to drive well. If you have always liked Honda, you will like the CR-V.
Also, I was told that I couldn’t order a specific CR-V if the one I wanted wasn’t available. Honda just decides which cars to mass produce in a cycle and you get what they are producing. I suspect that’s only a problem if you are looking for Opal Sage Metallic.
They also didn’t seem to have a vehicle on the lot with the exact features I was looking for (navigation).
***
Big Al -
We may treat ourselves this time. We need to sleep on the information and look at it with clear heads in the am, also I need to sit in that VW one more time. My husband loved the first 3 figures which we gave him for Christmas. I can’t wait to see the fourth one. I’ll save it for Valentine’s Day.
Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 4:54 pm
“You are going to have future conversations with me? Oh Lord, what have I done to deserve this?
——————-
YAWN”
You don’t do YAWN well. Really, trisha is the only one to do it well. My borrowing of it the other day was clever, because no one had thought to borrow it before and because trisha and I get along despite our disagreements. But overuse is trite.
———————-
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
typo: s/b……………’why he isn’t stepping up’ ?
“it goes without saying that he should.”
randy-
Have you had any experience recently with people on here going on ad nauseum about something you posted?
Chip–
Whether or not Joba needs to lose 20 LBs should not determine whether or not he has a future as SP on Yankees. He is still only 25. Shilling and others were older before things clicked. Joba is maturing and might be 27 before it clicks for him. At that time, he might get on a proper diet, and start working out more like Clemens did.
I would hate to see the time between now and then wasted by not letting him learn to pitch as a starter. Sure–he might go through peaks and valleys, but at least he will have further refined his craft, and maybe come to the realization that he needs further commitment to working out as part of his maturation.
Just writing him off and defining him in a limited role in BP is a huge mistake on part of FO.
In best possible scenario, he would have figured all this out at AAA SWB, but that is no longer an option. I am willing to live with the learning curve knowing that he still could project to be a top of staff starter.
If it doesn’t work out, at least he can give us some time for the Killer Bs to develop without having to commit to an over-the-hill veteran like Garcia or Francis.
‘Sandwich round’ (aptly named considering)
====================
Never one to pass up a double decker bologna and cheese, poor Joba. LMAO !
Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 4:55 pm
BoJo January 3rd, 2011 at 4:53 pm
Chip January 3rd, 2011 at 4:49 pm
Cahman is disingenuous…always has been.
————————–
He’s not disingenuous – he’s doing his job.
+++++++++++++
Being disingenuous is part of the job.
——————
Fair enough – but the connotation by calling him disingenuous is that he’s doing something wrong or shady – not the case at all.
++++++++++++
The word means what it means. Your interpretation may have been hasty.
“Honda just decides which cars to mass produce in a cycle and you get what they are producing.”
That reminds me of Henry Ford’s great line about the color of the Model T.
People who laugh at their own jokes unironically are usually not funny.
I particularly like Feliciano’s version of Feliz Navidad – although it did get a bit old after hearing it 500x this past holiday season.
The Yankees must have a new philosophy on pitchers, give them all umpteen chances no matter how many times they fail to get the job done. A waste of time trying to drill it into Joba’s thick head again and get him stretched out.
Big Al -
One thing about the Audi. They had no Q5s available to drive. They had one at the dealership that we could sit in which was already under contract to someone else. We drove an A4, which he told us the Q5 was based on. The main difference would be height. By the time we got back from the test drive, the Q5 was gone, so it was a good thing we got there early today. Otherwise, we’d have walked out. Or maybe that wasn’t so good a thing?
WYH -
I’ll bite. What did Ford say?
Doreen-
People may choose any color for their Model T, as long as it is black. Or something like that.
Just to wrap this up from my end–as I don’t want ot make this a never-ending debate….
There is no proof that Joba has a serious shoulder injurty.
There is no proof that the Yankees have a problem with his effort–indeed there is proof to the contrary.
He may have a weight problem, but that might be a part of growing up…and could eventually be addresses.
Rothschild believes his arm angle has too low, and correcting his slot will help him recover his killer slider and power fastball movement.
He has 4 legitimate pitches, which he can throw for strikes.
Cashman calling him a RP for the future is as meaningless as him calling him a SP for the future. Things change.
He can go back into SP with no restrictions as he can throw over 200 innings this coming year if needed.
His performance in 2009 for first 20 starts was outstanding for his age, and warrants future opportunity.
Not providing him the chance to learn as SP in the majors means that in 2 years, he will leave as FA and start elsewhere and probably be a star.
To me, the Yankees should put him in SP and let him mature and learn. He can continue to progress, and perhaps come to understand the importance of conditioning as well.
This kid has too much talent to write off based on wrong assumptions and rumors.
WYH -
That IS great line!
Forf, Ford, they’re the best…drive a mile and walk the rest?
Or you can have any color Model T as long as it’s black.
It is funny how some people can be so critical of the Yankees and others actually talk about how bad the Yankees handled him but then say, they must be right that Joba shouldn’t start because they are smarter than us!
BoJo-
I predict you haven’t wrapped things up…
It’s too bad that Joba has little or no trade value now. If he had any value I say see what you can get for him. Like with Pettitte move on and move forward, stop wasting time waiting for these head aches to go away.
“but then say, they must be right that Joba shouldn’t start because they are smarter than us!”
The Yank decision on Joba is like the “letter of transit” in Casablanca-
“it cannot be rescinded, not even questioned!” :;
The Yankees have not been right about Joba before, but I’m telling ya, I’m telling ya they sure are this time!
Wave Your Hat January 3rd, 2011 at 5:19 pm
BoJo-
I predict you haven’t wrapped things up…
++++++++++++
I hope I have, and surely am for today!
Cashman has 2 terrible offseasons in a row.
Javy Vazquez, Nick Johnson! What is this guy thinking?!
But Joba? Oh yeah, he knows all.
when I saw the signing on Francesa on YES, I got all excited…until I realized that this was the same guy try agreed to terms with 3 weeks ago…..
Doreen…..My friend bought a Audi Q5 and just loves it…..He traded in his Lexus and told me there is no comparison………Go for it as you too will never look back and question this decision…….Nice set of wheels Doreen, besides it’ll go with your Evening gowns…..
LGY January 3rd, 2011 at 5:33 pm
Cashman has 2 terrible offseasons in a row. Javy Vazquez, Nick Johnson! What is this guy thinking?! But Joba? Oh yeah, he knows all.
****************
There is a big difference between evaluating talent on other teams …and evaluating a pitcher on your team, with the help of scores of baseball personnel whose job it is to hlp make such decisions.
randy l May 28th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
“Why is Cashman in trouble if Joba doesn’t live up to the hype?”
because he bet his job on his youth plan.
—————————————————————-
SJ44 May 28th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Randy,
That’s a good point. I can’t fault him on Hughes and Kennedy. Its hard to believe those guys have stuggled so mightily.
If Joba bombs or God forbid, gets hurt, that’s the death knell for him.