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Could the Rays become an offseason pest?

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 09, 2011 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Just thinking outloud here…

In the wake of the Matt Garza trade, the Rays have insisted they want to compete in 2011. They saved some money by sending Garza to the Cubs, and the Rays want to use that payroll space to add pieces. According to Marc Topkin, the Rays have committed only $32 million in payroll — $32 million! — so they have some room to spend and maintain limited spending. Topkin notes that they’re looking to add one or two relievers and one or two hitters. The addition of catcher Robinson Chirinos could also leave them free to trade Kelly Shoppach.

What I’m wondering is whether the Rays remaining free agent targets and Yankees targets might overlap.

Relief pitchers
The remaining Type-A relievers are former Rays Grant Balfour and Rafael Soriano. Brian Cashman has indicated the Yankees aren’t willing to lose draft picks to sign either of them, and my guess — strictly a guess — is that the Rays would like to spend elsewhere and get those draft picks when Balfour and Soriano land elsewhere.

If that’s true, it would leave the Yankees and Rays looking through the exact same group of relievers, with the Rays able to offer the ninth inning to any pitcher with an eye on being a closer. Even before the Garza trade, the Rays were said to be interested in Brian Fuentes to take over the ninth inning.

Outfield
The most natural fit for the Yankees is a right-handed-hitting corner outfielder who can come off the bench and start occasionally against lefties. Isn’t that the same sort of outfielder the Rays will be looking for?

B.J. Upton and Desmond Jennings can play center field, so the Rays primarily need help in the corners, and they already have Matt Joyce and new addition Sam Fuld swinging from the left side. The left-right preference probably isn’t as significant with the Rays as with the Yankees, but my guess is that it’s there to some extent because they already have two left-handers who are strictly outfielders, and one DH option — Dan Johnson — is also a lefty.

Designated hitter
This is the most obvious difference between the Rays needs and Yankees needs.  The Rays could pump some of their money into the significant DH market, while the Yankees seem unlikely to be involved. The Rays could also get into in the first-base market — where the Yankees also won’t be involved — though that market is down to nothing more than low-cost options like Russell Branyan and Casey Kotchman.

Obviously it’s better for the Yankees if the Rays spend their time and money on players who don’t fit the Yankees plans.

Associated Press photo of Garza

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361 Responses to “Could the Rays become an offseason pest?”

  1. blake January 9th, 2011 at 9:16 am

    Good post Chad.

    Wouldn’t be surprised to see the Rays bid on Fuentes and one of Damon/Vlad. Think they’d consider taking Soriano back but it would have to be a similar deal to what they gave him last year and that seems unlikely.

  2. Rich in NJ January 9th, 2011 at 9:22 am

    The Rays demonstrate that you can compete at a high level with a relatively small payroll if you draft and develop well, and make good trades. The Yankees could learn a lesson from that.

  3. mick January 9th, 2011 at 9:25 am

    The Yanks are trying to become a smaller behemoth , who are they kidding.

  4. Rich in NJ January 9th, 2011 at 9:26 am

    Smaller? Smarter.

  5. Doreen January 9th, 2011 at 9:31 am

    Rich in NJ -

    I feel like in the drafting department, up until the last 3 seasons, where the Rays finished toward the top of the pack, they’ve had a bit of a head start. But no doubt, drafting well can only get you so far. You still have to follow through with good development.

    I mean, the Pirates have had the advantage of good position in the draft, and they’ve not been able to capitalize on it at all.

    The Yankees have to look at a different level of player in the draft, high risk/high reward potential, I guess it’s called? But I am not informed enough to say whether they have the type of development program that is a perfect complement to that. Perhaps they do – or are in the process of building one. The proof is (or in this case, will be) in the pudding, I guess.

  6. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 9:32 am

    Rays should be a lot of fun to watch this year. Hellickson, Jennings, McGee. They’ll definitely get a short contract closer, so I would think Soriano wouldn’t fit the bill. Interesting to see how JP Howell will come back, and who else of prospects will round at their bullpen and what kind of year Brignac will have. AL East will have some interesting story lines.

  7. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 9:33 am

    round *out* their bullpen

  8. YsGuy January 9th, 2011 at 9:33 am

    its important to remember how the rays got her a couple years ago. they drafted at the top of every round for abour 15 years and finally produced a whole slew of talent. they are still living off that crop, both on the team and with who they’ve been able to bring in for that talent.

    one trip to the postseason is all its produced to this point and it remains to be seen if they will be able to keep it going in the long-term as they are no longer drafting at the very top of the draft.

    kudos for very smart moves and yes, every team can probably learn from them. but its far from a proven buisness model to this point

  9. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 9:33 am

    Rays have made two trips to the post season since 2008.

  10. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 9:35 am

    Also have to realize Rays do a good job of *developing* their pitchers. So, they should get props for that as well. Although obviously their philosophy is different and has to be from big market clubs. Still something very exciting about what they are doing with so little cash.

  11. YsGuy January 9th, 2011 at 9:38 am

    true but thier startup capital was a minor leagues packed with the best available talent from draft after draft. they are using that capital very very well and competing. but it still remains to be seen how long that is going to last as thier draft products begin to look alot more like everybody else’s.

    im not saying its an illusion, they’ve done a great job to this point. but until they are still competing for PS play 5,6,7 years from now, you cant say that this is sustainable.

  12. Rich in NJ January 9th, 2011 at 9:40 am

    Doreen

    They have drafted very well beyond their picks at the top of the first round.

    For example, Desmond Jennings was their 10th round pick in 2006.

    Wade Davis was their 3rd round pick in 2004.

    Jeremy Hellickson was drafted in the 4th round in 2005.

    So you aren’t giving them enough credit.

  13. tyanksfan36 January 9th, 2011 at 9:42 am

    Ugh, I hate the Rays. Though I do like that they promote within so people who follow their minor leaguers don’t have to look far to see how they are doing. But besides that I hate them and their fans.

  14. Tom in N.J. January 9th, 2011 at 9:45 am

    I don’t look at it as becoming ‘smaller.’ They are becoming streamlined.

  15. blake January 9th, 2011 at 9:45 am

    Why can’t the Yankees be smart like the Rays and spend when neccessary like the Yankees…..I think that’s what they are trying to accomplish.

  16. Doreen January 9th, 2011 at 9:46 am

    Rich in NJ -

    I admit I don’t know a lot about the draft.

    I still stand by the statement that having earlier picks gives a team a leg up if they know what they’re doing.

    And I suppose if you know what you’re doing, it stands to reason that your later picks should also be at least decent.

  17. joeman January 9th, 2011 at 9:46 am

    hate to keep going back to it but I think the Lee situation knocked Cash on his ass & he can’t recover…..thinking he was sure he was going to get him….this team is in need of a #2 or #3 SP & there’s nowhere to turn

  18. William Buckner January 9th, 2011 at 9:47 am

    “Obviously it’s better for the Yankees if the Rays spend their time and money on players who don’t fit the Yankees plans.”

    That’s funny. I didn’t realize they had a plan.

  19. Doreen January 9th, 2011 at 9:49 am

    And you can’t not be impressed with the Rays. :)

  20. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 9:49 am

    Right, Rays have done a great job in later rounds as well – for example, Matt Moore – 8th round.

  21. Rich in NJ January 9th, 2011 at 9:50 am

    Doreen

    The Yankees spent about $130m more than the Rays last season.

    Who really has the leg up?

    Cashman, who I generally defend, has said that the Yankees have to start developing more from within. It’s time that plan starts taking hold, and they stop this mindlessness of contemplating trading Montero for a rental of Cliff Lee.

  22. Doreen January 9th, 2011 at 9:52 am

    But I think the biggest thing the Tampa Bay team did in the last 3 years, and the thing that made the most difference, was to take the “Devil” out of their names!!!

    :lol:

  23. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 9:53 am

    Cash knows the farm is integral to the Yanks’ success. Whole different world out there in mlb these days vs. the FA freewheeling of the past. Let’s just hope we don’t cave b/c of AJ’s last year’s troubles, and if Pettitte doesn’t come back.

  24. YsGuy January 9th, 2011 at 9:57 am

    one other thing, the ray’s would be unable to even exsist if not for the revenue they get from the yankees and other teams. they are a drain on overall mlb finances and they are never going to get a new ballpark in tampa. the fact that they didnt get a park built before the economic collapse makes them very vulnerable to be moved as they dont have a fan base and dont have long-term debt obligations like the pirates.

  25. Rich in NJ January 9th, 2011 at 9:57 am

    I actually do think Cash knows it, but I sometimes wonder whether ownership really understands that sometimes you have to take a step back in order to truly be in a position to win the WS every single year.

    Some fans will complain, as we have seen repeatedly, but you can’t let the LCD guide your decision-making process.

  26. William Buckner January 9th, 2011 at 9:58 am

    “hate to keep going back to it but I think the Lee situation knocked Cash on his ass & he can’t recover”

    Totall agree with this statement and I almost alway support Cashman. I think there was one plan. To sign Lee.

    There was no plan B. I also don’t consider resigning Jeter and Rivera as part of a plan. That was always happening.

    For me, this team only has 2 weaknesses. Lack of 2 starting pitchers. Unfortunately, that is a fatal flaw. Good thing baseball is a long season because they’ll have the rest of off season and 3 months to figure this out.

  27. Doreen January 9th, 2011 at 9:58 am

    Rich in NJ -

    I’m not looking to argue here.

    The Yankees have the advantage where money is necessary; the Rays had a leg up when they were able to choose from the top talent in the draft. They have chosen wisely and apparently have very good talent evaluators and then follow through with good development.

    What do you want me to say?

    It’s an area that it seems like the Yankees are working toward improving. As Cashman likes to say, “it’s a process.” Organizational changes like that don’t produce overnight.

  28. Rich in NJ January 9th, 2011 at 9:58 am

    “one other thing, the ray’s would be unable to even exsist if not for the revenue they get from the yankees and other teams.”

    Do they owe big revenue teams something for that?

  29. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 10:00 am

    lol, Doreen about Devil Rays.

    Rays DO need to start developing position players at a better rate though & Beckham’s a good case in point.

    Rich, we will likely find out this year what our philosophy is vis a vis staying with the course vs. dealing for the present. If we are smart, we can do both. ;)

  30. Rich in NJ January 9th, 2011 at 10:00 am

    Doreen

    All I’m saying is that if it was just about Price and Longoria, the Rays couldn’t compete, let alone at a high level. Their scouting and development is superb.

  31. YsGuy January 9th, 2011 at 10:07 am

    no, they dont owe the large market teams anything for thier largesse, but they should have been contracted.

  32. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 10:08 am

    yankfem – that matt moore is a flat out stud.If he moves fast,can you imagine having Moore & Price as your two lefties in the rotation?with those other guys they have?that’s crazy.dismissing the rays is foolish.

    & whoever said what they do is unsustainable,I figure the yank dinosaur model of trying to sign high ticket FAs while letting a system arm like Chamberlain’s dissipate,plus wasting a ace card like Arodys Vizcaino for a yr of Javier Vazquez, is the most unsustainable way to run a club & will eventually produce a dark period,like we had from 2004-to winning in 2009 & that has us revisiting the same problems even for 2011.like I said in previous thread,we have a new day thanks to rebuilding our system. but the collection of arms that is the next wave,the jury’s out on how we bring them along.

  33. YsGuy January 9th, 2011 at 10:10 am

    yeah, its a dinasaur model and apparently the ice age must’ve come last season because the dinosaur was still king in 2009.

  34. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 10:12 am

    Imagine losing players of Crawford and Garza’s stature and having the replacements in Jennings and Hellickson mlb-ready in your system. Obviously the Rays are acting based on small market necessity, and as a fan you hate to lose those players, in particular Crawford. However, perfectly conceived execution of a game plan when those players who have been the nucleus of your team become too costly. Of course, now Jennings and Hellickson have to execute, but they’re as ready as you can expect.

  35. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 10:14 am

    Doreen January 9th, 2011 at 9:52 am
    But I think the biggest thing the Tampa Bay team did in the last 3 years, and the thing that made the most difference, was to take the “Devil” out of their names!!!

    ////

    the biggest thing they’ve done is deal Matt Garza & yet bring a deep pitching staff to ST that right now looks like it can trump those of their so-called betters in the division.they gave up crawford & although we can’t speculate on how much impact he’ll have offensively,they already have his replacement in Desmond Jennings.i’d say that’s a plan in action down there in tampa.

  36. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 10:15 am

    J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 10:08 am
    ______
    How much would you have loved to have been at that FSL game where Moore started against Betances!

    As for lefties, Rays also have Torres in the mix. & let’s see what McGee does out of the pen.

  37. YsGuy January 9th, 2011 at 10:16 am

    now tampa is the model franchise. i think it was the jays two years ago. and the a’s before that and not too long ago it was cleveland…but one thinngs these model franchises have in common, none of them have won the ws since they were the ‘model franchise.’

    but the dinosaur lumbers on not knowing it’s extinct and still winning championships.

  38. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 10:17 am

    YsGuy January 9th, 2011 at 10:10 am
    yeah, its a dinasaur model and apparently the ice age must’ve come last season because the dinosaur was still king in 2009.

    ///

    right,we won in 2009 & yet we’ve got a depth problem at SP,due to “unforced errors.” you are the poster who crowed that chamberlain being in the BP is somehow a feather in their cap (shrugs shoulders).it can be actually fingered as the downfall of the current starting staff.

  39. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 10:19 am

    YsGuy January 9th, 2011 at 10:10 am
    yeah, its a dinasaur model and apparently the ice age must’ve come last season because the dinosaur was still king in 2009.
    ______
    You want a combo of the two. Strong farm and money for well chosen FA’s, but you don’t want to be beholden to a Cliff Lee who turns his nose up at you. I am all for signing FA’s, but you have to admire a model that executes so well on so little money. And nothing wrong with our learning from some of these great farm-small market teams. & we are! Our farm pitching is becoming envied, as is our farm catching arsenal. Why not be smart about it?

  40. 86w183 January 9th, 2011 at 10:19 am

    It’s simply ridiculous to keep harping on the payroll discrepancies of the two franchises. The Yanks not only generate about $ 300 Million as more in revenue, the pay the F-ING bills for the Rays and all the rest.

    Yes, Tampa Bay has in recent years done an outstanding job of player development, but that only occurs when you take chances on young players over and over and over again. I live in Florida and I can name more bad players they’ve called up than good ones, but they are allowed to stink for five years with a minimal fan base.

    The Yanks don’t have that freedom and will never takes backwards steps. That doesn’t mean you pursue superstars at every position because that’s not economically sustainable, but it does mean you must reinvest in the major league product.

  41. YsGuy January 9th, 2011 at 10:23 am

    alfred stupidname – here’s what i wrote:
    “one other thing about randy’s criticism of cash regarding pitching…he says the yankees dont develop pitchers. well, the last crop of potential mlb pitchers the yankees developed are doing quite well, much better than you would expect for 3 prospects in fact…
    phil hughes was an all-star this year and is already a solid #3.
    ian kennedy is in the rotation for the dbacks
    joba is in the yankees pen.

    3 guys who all turned out to be major leaguers, and really only one of them has not pitched up to what was expected of him

    any organization that has 3 hot pitchers in develpment will be overjoyed with those results for 3 prospect picthers

    but here, cash gets whacked over the head about them.”

    it that the same as saying joba is a feather in theier cap?

    be accurate at least…

  42. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 10:23 am

    Are backward steps, backward steps if they permit you to go two steps forward instead of one? I believe the Yanks can have their cake and eat it too, as long as they do a decent balancing act.

  43. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 10:24 am

    T. S. Eliot might disagree about J. Alfred Prufrock’s name. We should all be so lucky as too be so prolific and lauded as good ole T.S! ;)

  44. 86w183 January 9th, 2011 at 10:25 am

    If I’m Cashman and can move 3 top ten prospects for Soria or Carmona I do it.

    The problems the Yankees had in their “down” periods (1981-94, 2002-08) was that they traded their top prospects for over the hill role players and signed free agents who didn’t fill needs because they could. Jayson Werth would have been a perfect example of that had the Yanks pursued him, and Carl Crawford would be too.

    CC and Tex were perfect, new way of thinking FA acquisitions. AJ was more of the other mind set of player procurement. It’s not a mystery why the ideal fits worked so well and the other not so much.

    Lee was the only FA who truly filled a need AND was at the top of his game. Martin is a nice low risk, potential high reward addition while Feliciano fills a need.

  45. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 10:25 am

    *to*

  46. YsGuy January 9th, 2011 at 10:26 am

    femenista – agreed, i was against the santana trade, and i was against signing lee (and quite vocal about it)

  47. pat January 9th, 2011 at 10:26 am

    “…..will eventually produce a dark period, like we had from 2004-to winning in 2009 ”

    Dark period? How many teams were “brighter” in that time than the Yankees?

  48. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 10:27 am

    YsGuy, we actually could have won MORE than one in nine yrs had we had any kind of farm system producing arms.we saw how valuable that was in 2009,with guys like coke,robertson,aceves,hughes for a bp that helped us win again.

    You keep responding like someone’s taking gratuitous shots at the yankees.but if you were really listening,you’d see what some are saying is,with all the advantages we have,we shouldn’t have been facing a Lee or Else proposition for the rotation in 2011.I believe that desperate position was a direct result of failing to develop an arm we already have in chamberlain. what’s frustrating is our system is now an enviable one. We have a ton of depth and a handful of high-end arms that could help us as early as 2012.is wanting to see those pitchers integrated into the rotation,so we don’t have to be at the mercy of 32-yr olds who prefer the city of Philaldephia,get back to the WS??

  49. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 10:28 am

    totally off topic, but too interesting a comparison to not pass on:

    mantle vs ichiro

    http://www.RightViewPro.com/ho.....antle#with

  50. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 10:28 am

    86w183 January 9th, 2011 at 10:25 am
    If I’m Cashman and can move 3 top ten prospects for Soria or Carmona I do it.
    ______
    Cash would never move 3 top prospects for those two. For Soria, who I love, moving one A prospect such as Montero would be questionable b/c he is a relief pitcher. For Carmona it would be ridiculous b/c he isn’t worth it. Moving 3 would be a totally out of touch move. More of a move for a front of rotation pitcher, not a reliever or middling to back starter.

  51. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 10:28 am

    YsGuy January 9th, 2011 at 10:23 am
    alfred stupidname – here’s what i wrote:

    ////

    I didn’t read past this.go back to kindergarten.

  52. mick January 9th, 2011 at 10:31 am

    Too late . Smart takes time. There will be growing pains. Could be soon.
    Quick get Zambrano.

  53. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 10:32 am

    OK, can we all agree that wanting to develop the farm and winning the WS are not diametrically opposed? How is wanting to make the Yankees even better a negative? Why shouldn’t we use our resources to have the best farm system with the best development programs bar none. Why can’t we admire other small market models without dissing the Yankees. Winning and developing the farm are not mutually exclusive concepts. Maybe you aren’t paying attention, but we are the NY Yankees and right now, we are lacking a starting pitcher that our farm can fill if we have a ready SP, vs. dealing valuable assets for a run of the mill SP who probably won’t pitch better than Noesi.

  54. austinmac January 9th, 2011 at 10:32 am

    Cashman still says they are still looking for pitching. I hope some is found before then start of the season. A bad rotation in the first few months will kill the pen making that too a weakness.

    The Yankees supposedly have ten starter prospects at varying stages of development. They need to use a couple for trade purposes. Save your top two and go from there. Surely, if they are real prospects they have good value. The question is whether the value is real or they are perceived as significant prospects only by the fan base.

  55. YsGuy January 9th, 2011 at 10:33 am

    not developing joba, or joba being a lazy fatboy who doesnt work at his craft (take your choice) does not indicate the the yankees cant develop pithers. see my above post which you mischaracterized earlier.

  56. 108 stitches January 9th, 2011 at 10:35 am

    Part of the Rays success with young or drafted players is the teaching they get a lower levels of their farm system. The Yankees could learn from it by getting more top notch instructors.

  57. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 10:35 am

    The pitching prospects are not perceived as significant prospects *only* by the fanbase. Easy way to find out is to read about them in neutral scouting reports, or to listen to who is being asked for in trades by other teams’ GM’s. Again, yes some of them can be used as trade chips, but we don’t want to trade a high level prospect for a middling level mlb pitcher.

  58. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 10:36 am

    108 stitches January 9th, 2011 at 10:35 am
    Part of the Rays success with young or drafted players is the teaching they get a lower levels of their farm system. The Yankees could learn from it by getting more top notch instructors.
    ______
    Agree. Critical point.

  59. blake January 9th, 2011 at 10:37 am

    Moving top prospects for a relief pitcher is never a good idea…..especially when they could have Soriano for money only. If the Yankees really offered Montero for Soria and they said no then both sides are nuts…I highly doubt they did.

  60. mick January 9th, 2011 at 10:37 am

    Ichiro=1st ballot HOFer….funny seeing him as a righty

  61. Tom in N.J. January 9th, 2011 at 10:38 am

    In July of last season Joel Sherman wrote this about Joba:

    “They do not believe Chamberlain is failing because of an attitude problem. Yankee officials actually consider Chamberlain a hard worker.”

    http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/.....CS2bzxyDTJ

  62. YsGuy January 9th, 2011 at 10:39 am

    thats why i said take your pick…

  63. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 10:40 am

    blake January 9th, 2011 at 10:37 am
    Moving top prospects for a relief pitcher is never a good idea…..especially when they could have Soriano for money only. If the Yankees really offered Montero for Soria and they said no then both sides are nuts…I highly doubt they did.
    ______
    I also doubt this.

  64. austinmac January 9th, 2011 at 10:43 am

    Feminista,

    We shall see. Betances, Banuelos and perhaps Brackman are highly rated. The others are at leaser a notch below. Your rating of all these pitchers as A or B prospects will not square with any professional rating organization. Most will be C rated.

  65. austinmac January 9th, 2011 at 10:44 am

    “at least”

  66. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 10:45 am

    yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 10:32 am
    OK, can we all agree that wanting to develop the farm and winning the WS are not diametrically opposed? How is wanting to make the Yankees even better a negative? Why shouldn’t we use our resources to have the best farm system with the best development programs bar none. Why can’t we admire other small market models without dissing the Yankees. Winning and developing the farm are not mutually exclusive concepts. Maybe you aren’t paying attention, but we are the NY Yankees and right now, we are lacking a starting pitcher that our farm can fill if we have a ready SP, vs. dealing valuable assets for a run of the mill SP who probably won’t pitch better than Noesi.

    ///
    hell yes! for some reason, a false dichotomy is being insisted on.

  67. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 10:48 am

    austinmac January 9th, 2011 at 10:43 am
    Feminista,

    We shall see. Betances, Banuelos and perhaps Brackman are highly rated. The others are at leaser a notch below. Your rating of all these pitchers as A or B prospects will not square with any professional rating organization. Most will be C rated.
    ___
    If you had read my post, you would note that I was responding to the poster’s categories as A, B+ and B. C wasn’t an option. Criteria for rating is always dicey, but based on *stuff,* I would not have rated any of *those* particular pitchers as C’s. There are many C’s in our system. However, MTU didn’t list any of those. Who would you rate as a C among that group, praytell?

  68. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 10:49 am

    And no way based on *stuff,* are any of Marshall, Bryan Mitchell, Ramirez or De Paula ranked below an A.

  69. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 10:50 am

    Tom in N.J. January 9th, 2011 at 10:38 am
    In July of last season Joel Sherman wrote this about Joba:

    “They do not believe Chamberlain is failing because of an attitude problem. Yankee officials actually consider Chamberlain a hard worker.”

    http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/…..CS2bzxyDTJ

    ////
    That really kinda takes the air out of some sails around here, doesn’t it? People harp on Chamberlain’s so-called attitude problem like he’s their wayward son who disgraced the family name.Great find.i have saved to bookmarks.The mistake IMO was not sending him to the minors EVER AGAIN.

  70. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 10:50 am

    “It’s time that plan starts taking hold, and they stop this mindlessness of contemplating trading Montero for a rental of Cliff Lee”

    rich in nj-

    brian cashman is not a great leader and a great gm has to be a great leader.

    he’s not a great leader because he’s wishy washy on committing to his plans that are good.

    under pressure he chokes like a dog.

    that’s how you get him dangling montero for a 2 month rental of lee.

    he was feeling the 2010 heat of the moment pressure and lost his composure.

    he doesn’t have the stomach to stay committed to his plan.

    so far , for the yankees major league team he has come up with a very good hughes and two average relievers in joba and robertson for 5 years of total control by cashman.

    that’s pathetic when someone says they are focusing on development from within.

  71. mick January 9th, 2011 at 10:51 am

    The Yanks and Red Sox were never built around pitching. This is a relatively new phenomena and is still in transition and probably always will be as it is harder to find good pitchers than hitters.

    Suddenly going the smart route is just a product of having our fill of hitters and using what is left over for a pitcher or 2. That was the thinking behind getting Lee.

    If these prospects are for real we had better take a good look at them before we trade them away.
    Cash said it would require patience. I find it hard to believe that a behemoth can get smart overnight and not be a creature of its history.

  72. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 10:53 am

    yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 10:24 am
    T. S. Eliot might disagree about J. Alfred Prufrock’s name. We should all be so lucky as too be so prolific and lauded as good ole T.S!

    ///
    lol.missed this.Thanks.the username,as well as the poem’s title,is obviously ironic :D.

  73. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 10:55 am

    “Ichiro=1st ballot HOFer….funny seeing him as a righty”

    i wonder why they didn’t just compare mantle’s lefty swing to ichiro.

    when gb7 wakes up , i’ll have to get his view of this.

    for anyone who watched him play, new video or photos of mantle are always a treat.

  74. austinmac January 9th, 2011 at 10:55 am

    Phelps, Noesi, Mitchell, and the rest I would rate as C plus to B minus. That doesn’t mean they can’t pitch in the majors, just their ceiling is a possible middle of the rotation pitcher. If they were not thought to have such ability they would have no appreciable value.

    My point is not to demean these pitchers, but to say they should have value in acquiring a pitcher for 2011. It seems to me two prospects with possible middle of the rotation abilities should bring pitcher with such ability currently. Admittedly, that is pure guesswork.

  75. YsGuy January 9th, 2011 at 10:56 am

    kennedy, bruney, karstens, olendorf and others. at least be fair randy

  76. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 10:56 am

    randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 10:50 am
    “It’s time that plan starts taking hold, and they stop this mindlessness of contemplating trading Montero for a rental of Cliff Lee”

    rich in nj-

    brian cashman is not a great leader and a great gm has to be a great leader.

    he’s not a great leader because he’s wishy washy on committing to his plans that are good.

    under pressure he chokes like a dog.

    that’s how you get him dangling montero for a 2 month rental of lee.

    he was feeling the 2010 heat of the moment pressure and lost his composure.

    he doesn’t have the stomach to stay committed to his plan.

    so far , for the yankees major league team he has come up with a very good hughes and two average relievers in joba and robertson for 5 years of total control by cashman.

    that’s pathetic when someone says they are focusing on development from withi
    _______
    Yes, dangling Montero for a two month rental of Lee is very troubling. This is the thing with Cash. He did a complete reversal after he made his naive 2008, bring in three prospect starters at once move. That is why IMO this year is so critical. What will Cash do? He is again talking big about sticking to the program. So we will see if he is a man of his word or if he will forego the long term plan, which will actually likely work even in the present, for some short term fix. If Cash does that, he is not to be trusted.

  77. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 10:58 am

    austinmac January 9th, 2011 at 10:43 am
    Feminista,

    We shall see. Betances, Banuelos and perhaps Brackman are highly rated.

    ///
    yea Brackman too,the thing with him is his 3rd pitch isn’t quite there yet.the other two kids r more polished.in fact,Betances is much more polished than even the reports acknowledging his being cleaned up & throwing a plus change.the two kids r thinking pitchers who also have great stuff and deep arsenals.I do not want to see either dealt.if Brack can raise the level of his change,he could join in.he’s an excellent reliever RIGHT NOW.

  78. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 11:01 am

    “not developing joba, or joba being a lazy fatboy who doesnt work at his craft (take your choice) does not indicate the the yankees cant develop pithers”

    it certainly doesn’t say much for their ability to motivate does it?

  79. Tar January 9th, 2011 at 11:03 am

    The Rays have had a top 5 pick in 8 out of the last 11 MLB drafts.

    top 10 pick in 10 out of 11. They have done well with those picks.

    The international market is where the Yankees have been trying to make up for that discrepancy.

  80. Bronx Jeers January 9th, 2011 at 11:03 am

    I’d say that Cashman’s development as a GM and Joba’s development as a MLB pitcher are coincidentally congruous

  81. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 11:03 am

    austinmac January 9th, 2011 at 10:55 am
    Phelps, Noesi, Mitchell, and the rest I would rate as C plus to B minus. That doesn’t mean they can’t pitch in the majors, just their ceiling is a possible middle of the rotation pitcher. If they were not thought to have such ability they would have no appreciable value.

    My point is not to demean these pitchers, but to say they should have value in acquiring a pitcher for 2011. It seems to me two prospects with possible middle of the rotation abilities should bring pitcher with such ability currently. Admittedly, that is pure guesswork.
    _________
    I would rate those pitchers above in the B range give or take a half grade. I would never collapse them with all the C pitchers we have. And it sounds to me like you are generally categorizing pitchers without power arms as C’s. However, C pitchers to me are non-prospects, and all the above are bonafide prospects at this point, even if more middle of rotation types.

    And when you say “and the rest” I have to presume you are referring to my above group of Marshall, B. Mitchell, Ramirez and De Paula as well? If so, I heartily disagree, as would any scout. Those guys have A stuff, and putting them in a “C” category is far too low. C prospects are not even in the same stratosphere are these prospects and don’t have their kind of stuff, ceiling or projection.

  82. austinmac January 9th, 2011 at 11:03 am

    I have seen lots of Mantle and Ichiro. If you want a single, Ichiro is your man. Obviously, if you want power there is no contest. For my money, I will take a .300 hitter with amazing power. I would compare the speed as relatively equal at least until Mantle’s knee got very bad. Mantle had a very good arm while Ichiro has a cannon.

    My Mantle memories only go back to 1960 so I never saw the young Mickey. The 30 year old version was a thrill to watch.

  83. Against All Odds January 9th, 2011 at 11:05 am

    joeman January 9th, 2011 at 9:46 am

    hate to keep going back to it but I think the Lee situation knocked Cash on his ass & he can’t recover
    ————————————

    I agree I think them not getting Lee was a shock to their system. The last guy they wanted and didn’t get was Maddux…which was many yrs ago. Now that doesn’t mean he’s in the fetal position under his desk but I think Lee not coming here seriously impacted them.

  84. mick January 9th, 2011 at 11:06 am

    Wasn’t Cash an intern hired by George?
    Being a George protege in an un-George-like era could be dangerous.

  85. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 11:06 am

    Well, our desperate need for Lee speaks volumes.

  86. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 11:06 am

    he’s not a great leader because he’s wishy washy on committing to his plans that are good.

    under pressure he chokes like a dog.

    that’s how you get him dangling montero for a 2 month rental of lee.

    ////

    Unfortunately, I think there’s some truth to this.my confidence in cashman’s sincerity plunged when I learned he had Montero packed off to Seattle for two months of Lee.If Jack Z hadn’t backed out,it’s not inconceivable Lee would have secretly planned to run away to Philadelphia any way.Now that would have been irrevocable,and we don’t owe it not happening to Cashman having last minute buyer’s remorse,but to the stupidity of Jack Z.

    When Montero is hitting 35-40 dingers a yr for us,we should have a statue commemorating Jack Z: the man who saved Jesus Montero.

  87. mick January 9th, 2011 at 11:08 am

    Ichiro could hit for power if he wanted to.

  88. SAS January 9th, 2011 at 11:09 am

    Good morning all,

    What happened yesterday in Tuscon is a true tragedy. Now that we are living here, it is hard to imagine a guy like this would hurt someone who was simply doing a good work in her job. The other innocents who were hurt and killed is mind boggling.

    ——————————————————————————————————-

    I tried to catch up with the statements made by all of you this morning. It seems to me that Yankee fans ‘want their cake and eat it too’. If the Yankees want to sign a higher profile pitcher, they have to give something to get something. It would be nice if that weren’t so. Soriano and Soria are going to be expensive even if it is ‘people expensive’. The other side is too stick with our young prospects and try to make that work. Somehow you have to pay for something you want.

  89. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 11:12 am

    Bronx Jeers January 9th, 2011 at 11:03 am
    I’d say that Cashman’s development as a GM and Joba’s development as a MLB pitcher are coincidentally congruous
    ///

    lol. sad but true.but all hope is not lost: Cashman can redeem himself by redeeming Joba’s arm, and by doing right by the KB generation.

  90. Tar January 9th, 2011 at 11:12 am

    “that’s how you get him dangling montero for a 2 month rental of lee”

    That 2 month rental could have turned into a Championship and a long term contract.

    I am glad that they did not trade Montero, But unless you live in a parallel universe or something, you don’t know how that trade might have turned out.

  91. mick January 9th, 2011 at 11:14 am

    That 2 month rental could have turned into a Championship and a long term contract.
    ==========================================
    Have to think he would have done the same thing.

  92. Bronx Jeers January 9th, 2011 at 11:14 am

    Cashman’s father and George knew each other from the horse breeding business.

    Yes Cashman is indeed a “Fortunate Son” :wink:

  93. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 11:14 am

    The other side is too stick with our young prospects and try to make that work. Somehow you have to pay for something you want.

    ///
    no one’s giving us a frontline SP without stealing the family jewels, & even that’s not likely because teams for some reason like having such guys on their OWN staff. But hypothetically,it depends on who the target is and who the outbound prospects are.

  94. mick January 9th, 2011 at 11:15 am

    Yes Cashman is indeed a “Fortunate Son” :wink:
    =================================
    A Chauncey Gardiner?

  95. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 11:18 am

    Tar January 9th, 2011 at 11:12 am
    “that’s how you get him dangling montero for a 2 month rental of lee”

    That 2 month rental could have turned into a Championship and a long term contract.

    I am glad that they did not trade Montero, But unless you live in a parallel universe or something, you don’t know how that trade might have turned out.

    ///
    you’re right,it could have, but watching the events,it’s clear lee wanted Philly.Also,with guys like Banuelos and Betances lurking on the horizon,I would not trade a special career in the middle of the order for a 32 yr old,even if he is lefthanded. he goes down,you got nothin.he doesn’t go down,and starts to decline and becomes the guy the Giants were taking the other way with glee,& the chip you traded is mashing away,well,that’s a depressing scenario.& even if you win another WS,I tell you I’d trade the one for what I envision to be the many,with Montero’s bat and the Bs in the rotation,along with a still effective CC & Hughes.that group would have a shot to win every year.

  96. mick January 9th, 2011 at 11:20 am

    you’re right,it could have, but watching the events,it’s clear lee wanted Philly.Also,with guys like Banuelos and Betances lurking on the horizon,I would not trade a special career in the middle of the order for a 32 yr old,even if he is lefthanded. he goes down,you got nothin.he doesn’t go down,and starts to decline and becomes the guy the Giants were taking the other way with glee,& the chip you traded is mashing away,well,that’s a depressing scenario.& even if you win another WS,I tell you I’d trade the one for what I envision to be the many,with Montero’s bat and the Bs in the rotation,along with a still effective CC & Hughes.that group would have a shot to win every year.
    =========================
    Good enough to post again. Well said.

  97. austinmac January 9th, 2011 at 11:21 am

    Feminista,

    I admit I have seen none of the pitchers of whom you speak. Lower level prospects are given lower grades because they have much more of a hill to climb.

    The minor league guides are hitting the market now. If these pitchers are graded as you suggest, I will acknowledge your correctness. I assume you would do likewise.

  98. BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 11:21 am

    mick January 9th, 2011 at 10:51 am

    The Yanks and Red Sox were never built around pitching. This is a relatively new phenomena and is still in transition and probably always will be as it is harder to find good pitchers than hitters.
    +++++++++++++
    Between this comment and Randy’s comment the other day about building a pitching staff as formidable as their offense, I wanted to comment that there is a reason the Yankees can build an offense but have trouble with the pitching.

    Specifically, it seems to me that the acquisition or promotion of a position player fills a need for a few years at a time. The day to day player IMO tends to be around 4 to 5 years at least…especially when the team spends so much to acquire a star (Tex, AROd, Granderson, Damon, Matsui) or when one develops into a star (Cano, Jeter, Posada, Swisher, Gardner). Putting a majority of funds into position players seems like it has been a less risky investment.

    Pitchers on the other hand are much more fragile. A good to great one like Wang can blow his career out in a moment. An AJ Burnett can go from decent to dreadful…same with Randy Johnson, Pavano, Wright, Vasquez, etc. Even internally developed pitchers can go hot and cold or be lost to injury (Christian Garcia, Alan Horne, Brackman and Betances until recently).

    So, just wishing it were so and that the Yankees could develop as good a pitching staff as their offense ignores the difficulty of actually doing so.

    However, the focus on power pitching since 2006, as well as the development of numerous young prospects speaks to the fact that the Yankees are indeed trying to get to a model where they have a constant pipeline of good young arms to augment their offense.

    We just need to be patient for the model to come to fruition.

  99. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 11:21 am

    “kennedy, bruney, karstens, olendorf and others. at least be fair randy”

    kennedy was traded for the left handed swing of granderson(most the rest of him was gotten by austin jackson ).

    bruney spent about 30 innings in the yankees minor league system.

    karstens could have been a number 5. how much he got back in trade is very debatable because he was one of three players traded.

    ohlendorf also could have been a #5 and would have been interesting long term because of his intelligence. guys like that tend to figure out things. but he was also traded in with two other guys for marte so how much the yankees got for him is debatable.

    it doesn’t help cashman’s case if he sells the few guys he develops for a bag of balls.

  100. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 11:21 am

    SAS January 9th, 2011 at 11:09 am
    Good morning all,

    What happened yesterday in Tuscon is a true tragedy. Now that we are living here, it is hard to imagine a guy like this would hurt someone who was simply doing a good work in her job. The other innocents who were hurt and killed is mind boggling.

    ——————————————————————————————————-

    I tried to catch up with the statements made by all of you this morning. It seems to me that Yankee fans ‘want their cake and eat it too’. If the Yankees want to sign a higher profile pitcher, they have to give something to get something. It would be nice if that weren’t so. Soriano and Soria are going to be expensive even if it is ‘people expensive’. The other side is too stick with our young prospects and try to make that work. Somehow you have to pay for something you want.
    _____
    Morning, SAS. Yes, the occurrences in Arizona are tragic and very very disturbing. RIP to those who lost family members and prayers for healing to those who were injured.

    *****
    I think we *can* have our cake and eat it too, to a certain extent though. The question is how high a profile pitcher do we need, and what are we willing to give up to get that pitcher? If Felix or Josh Johnson were being dangled, perhaps we might consider. But why would we waste a top prospect/trade chip on a middling starting pitcher? As for relievers, IMO you cannot trade a top prospect such as Montero for a reliever, even one as coveted as Soria. In terms of value, relief pitchers are just not worth position players or SP’s. Soriano for a #1 isn’t such a great proposition either, but would be preferable over trading an already developed A prospect for Soria.

    I think the best option is to bide our time, and wait until we can make a reasonable deal if we can’t backend the rotation with one of our own. We can always get an innings eater, established pitcher for much less in terms of prospects. CC is our ace; we do not need to overpay for a mid level pitcher, especially not while we appear vulnerable to other teams. There is plenty of time to gauge what is out there.

  101. Bronx Jeers January 9th, 2011 at 11:22 am

    Chauncey was better at bringing in the harvest.

    ————————

    If the Sox are waiting till after opening day to extend AGon to avoid luxury tax penalties might the Yanks also benefit from making that big, $plashy trade (i.e. Zambrano) after that date as well? Just a thought.

  102. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 11:24 am

    mick – thanks. even cashman said “I’m glad that fell through.” My guess is, that means he’s claiming he wouldn’t do that again (can only hope, of course). & I agree with you,I think it’s likely that Lee would have similarly bolted back to Philly. we’ll never know, of course (& I’m grateful for that too!).

  103. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 11:25 am

    Tar January 9th, 2011 at 11:12 am
    “that’s how you get him dangling montero for a 2 month rental of lee”

    That 2 month rental could have turned into a Championship and a long term contract.

    I am glad that they did not trade Montero, But unless you live in a parallel universe or something, you don’t know how that trade might have turned out.

    mick January 9th, 2011 at 11:14 am
    That 2 month rental could have turned into a Championship and a long term contract.
    ==========================================
    Have to think he would have done the same thing.
    _________
    Right, likely Lee still would have wanted to go to Philly, a place he *loved.* And then what?

    Also, as we have learned Lee doesn’t guarantee a WS, nor does any player. To equate getting Lee with an automatic WS championship is a leap.

  104. 108 stitches January 9th, 2011 at 11:26 am

    Scouts from opposing teams do their homework. They know the high ceiling prospects from the marginal ones. The cross-checkers log in a ton of miles to check out the best of a team’s talent. They can’t always be spotted in the stands of minor league games but they’re in attendance.

  105. Patrick January 9th, 2011 at 11:28 am

    Vick was doing us favor by ridding the world of dangerous dogs? Maybe the most inane, garbage filled post I have ever seen here. Congrats.

    It says something about your intelligence that you took my posts seriously.

  106. G. Love January 9th, 2011 at 11:28 am

    Jeers,

    Can’t see that happening. There’s too much risk involved. You’d be letting your trade target go through spring training with his old team, not get accustomed to his new catcher and team and the prospects you’d be dealing could get injured in our spring training in Tampa. Also if Zambrano, in this instance, has a lights out spring what’s to stop the Cubs from pulling the deal and keeping him? What’s to stop the Yankees from backing out if he has a horrible spring?

    The difference in the Agon situation is he’s already there in Boston. That said, it would be interesting to see what Boston did if he suffered a major injury in spring training.

  107. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 11:31 am

    if would anyone like to go to hour long talks by dana cavalea, kevin long, al leiter,bobby valentine, rick peterson, the rays mlb hitting coach, and numerous others:

    http://www.baseballcoachesclin.....ule.php#18

    $139 at mohegan sun. you’re supposed to be a coach to register, but i think for $139 they will take your word you are a baseball coach.

    if i wasn’t already previously committed to a trade show i’d go. this is a baseball insider deal.

  108. Tar January 9th, 2011 at 11:34 am

    “you’re right,it could have, but watching the events,it’s clear lee wanted Philly.”

    J. Alfred Prufrock

    But the events I am talking about are 2 months playing for the greates franchise in the history of sports :D , topped off with a walk down the Canyon of heroes. Quite a different scenario.

    Now for the record I would not have traded Montero for a 2 month rental of Lee.

    “To equate getting Lee with an automatic WS championship is a leap.”

    Yankeefeminista

    I guess you missed the part where I posted “could have”.

  109. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 11:35 am

    “Also, as we have learned Lee doesn’t guarantee a WS, nor does any player. To equate getting Lee with an automatic WS championship is a leap.”

    you sure you belong on this blog?
    making sense will get you banned.

  110. austinmac January 9th, 2011 at 11:35 am

    108 Stitches,

    I agree about the other teams’ scouting. To get a good player via trade, you have to give up quality. Maybe not your top shelf, but not from the sock drawer either. To get a good player, you must give up player(s) who have major league capabilities.

    It has been said over and over, if the Yankees have many pitchers others want and since the Yankee rotation in the years ahead can’t use them all, their best value is trade.

  111. 86w183 January 9th, 2011 at 11:35 am

    Today we are setting a record for prospect hugging

    that’s great if you are a Pirates fan, but absurd to think the Yankees will ever become the Tampa Bay Rays. they will never draft high enough, they will never take as many lumps as the young guys flail away at the major league level. They will never makes that trade off.

    Since most draft picks don’t make it to the majors for at least 3-4 years I’d say the Yanks record over the last five is pretty damn good all things considered.

    Think of the Yanks as a Broadway show. Could the theater companies turn out a great show using lesser name/no name talent and paying those performers less? Of course they could, but ticket sales would suffer.

    The Yankees ARE baseball’s Broadway and the Rays are community theater. The Yanks will work at most one young pitcher and one young position player into major roles. Last year it was Hughes and Gardner. This year it appears that it will be Nova.

  112. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 11:36 am

    However, the focus on power pitching since 2006, as well as the development of numerous young prospects speaks to the fact that the Yankees are indeed trying to get to a model where they have a constant pipeline of good young arms to augment their offense.

    We just need to be patient for the model to come to fruition.

    ///

    Bojo, if Cashman is intent on seeing this plan through it would behoove the yanks to promote their higher-end, closer-to-majors prospects more. unfortunately, out of sight, out of mind, & never have seen, out of consciousness is very human. the average fan,who isn’t crazy & doesn’t build their work schedule,for instance,around yankee games and business trips around visits to MiL parks to see the farm guys,doesn’t know Dellin Betances from Alan Horne,and the way the former’s name has been tossed around in here as, like, the FIFTH name in a package for Greinke or whomever,underscores the average fan’s view of prospects as interchangeable.

    You don’t want these guys’ routines disturbed but surely the yanks could feature manny or betances throwing a game in trenton now & again on YES. the yanks did a bit of this last season I think,& had those little updates in the pre-game,but I’d like to see more of it.for example,seeing Betances live is believing.He’s also a kid who,as you know,said he only wanted to pitch for the yanks.he’s a confident giant who to me is a RH Randy Johnson,a player he greatly admires as well.Betances would win over the fan who doesn’t know him from Horne (not to dis Horne, in case his old man is on this board, lol, he was a nice pitcher),because he has stuff,size,can actually pitch and is a kid that thrives on being in the spotlight.you can’t tell the fanbase we’re not trading betances for x (not that they’ve done that) & not give the fan a taste of what you’re saving it for.

    the model coming to fruition with more patience from the fanbase,plus what’s already begun in the media,with them being more conscious of how good our system is,could actually occur.

  113. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 11:38 am

    The Yankees ARE baseball’s Broadway and the Rays are community theater. The Yanks will work at most one young pitcher and one young position player into major roles. Last year it was Hughes and Gardner. This year it appears that it will be Nova.

    ///
    maybe you’d say the Rays are off-broadway or a really good off-off broadway. community theater is generally awful and devoid of talent or risk taking,IMO.The Rays are more like some cutting edge production that once in a while makes it to off or even Broadway because some white knight steps in after a viral response.but otherwise,I agree.

  114. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 11:39 am

    austinmac January 9th, 2011 at 11:21 am
    Feminista,

    I admit I have seen none of the pitchers of whom you speak. Lower level prospects are given lower grades because they have much more of a hill to climb.

    The minor league guides are hitting the market now. If these pitchers are graded as you suggest, I will acknowledge your correctness. I assume you would do likewise.
    ___________
    Well, important distinction is that different lists use different criteria. I am more of the school of stuff and projectability. However, some more highly rate closest to majors. Combo of both will likely have those pitchers you rated C’s, such as Phelps, Marshall, Stoneburner and B Mitchell in top 20. & obviously Warren there. Betances, Banuelos of course will be top 5 with Brackman right there. However, keep in mind that rankings are affected by how good your system is, so a guy that makes 10 in one farm system might be a better prospect than that ranking in another, but a farm may be so flush that the Montero’s and Gary Sanchez’s of the world, keep that prospect lower than you would expect.

    De Paula was an IFA who was highly coveted by many teams, and if you have read scouting reports or look at video, his stuff is phenomenal. However, I don’t think most will risk putting him in a top 20 until they get to see him stateside, even though most scouts would say he has the stuff for top 10.

    Ditto Ramirez, who has an unbelievable FB/Change combo but who is still in A, and is working on his CB. Although probably those more conversant with him might rank him top 20.

    It is more instructive though to read the scouting reports/grades than go solely by rankings b/c systems are so different in terms of level of talent that it becomes somewhat relative to how good your system is.

  115. 86w183 January 9th, 2011 at 11:41 am

    The salary cap thing with A-Gon is because it is an extension. If he signed it before the season it would be averaged in with this year’s salary, but by signing an extension during the season it is not.

    Payroll tax is calculated late in the year, not opening day.

    Acquiring a pitcher with a big contract would not be in the same category and that player’s compensation would be calculated accordingly.

    No, Lee didn’t guarantee anything, but it’s not THAT much of a leap when you know that the Yanks got within 2 wins of the World Series without him. Do you really think the Rangers without Lee beat the Yanks with Lee in the ALCS?

  116. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 11:42 am

    IMO you cannot trade a top prospect such as Montero for a reliever, even one as coveted as Soria.

    ///

    Agree YF,& I’m going to give Cashman the benefit of the doubt here & say that was NOT offered.

  117. MaineYankee January 9th, 2011 at 11:43 am

    randy

    you sure you belong on this blog?
    making sense will get you banned.

    —————————————————————-

    So now we know why you still post here. :lol:

  118. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 11:43 am

    Tar January 9th, 2011 at 11:34 am
    “you’re right,it could have, but watching the events,it’s clear lee wanted Philly.”

    J. Alfred Prufrock

    But the events I am talking about are 2 months playing for the greates franchise in the history of sports , topped off with a walk down the Canyon of heroes. Quite a different scenario.

    Now for the record I would not have traded Montero for a 2 month rental of Lee.

    “To equate getting Lee with an automatic WS championship is a leap.”

    Yankeefeminista

    I guess you missed the part where I posted “could have”.
    _____
    No, I didn’t. I am just reemphasizing that Lee doesn’t necessarily = World Series. I am a conscientious reader, so be assured, that wasn’t my intention.

  119. austinmac January 9th, 2011 at 11:44 am

    Feminista,

    You do know the Yankees are not sure Depaula can get a visa and his signing is contingent on it. You do know if Ramirez doesn’t develop the third pitch we will likely never hear from him again. Out of many with tools, few are chosen to ever play in the majors. The key is not keeping them all but keeping the very best.

  120. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 11:46 am

    randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 11:35 am
    “Also, as we have learned Lee doesn’t guarantee a WS, nor does any player. To equate getting Lee with an automatic WS championship is a leap.”

    you sure you belong on this blog?
    making sense will get you banned.
    ____
    lol. So the pressure is on to get banned, I guess. ;)

  121. Tar January 9th, 2011 at 11:51 am

    ” I am just reemphasizing that Lee doesn’t necessarily = World Series. I am a conscientious reader, so be assured, that wasn’t my intention.

    Agree. Closer to, but not =.

    BTW, I think you do a great job of posting, just don’t miss quote me anymore. j/k :D

    In a couple of years when we see how Montero’s career and Lee’s contract are actually turning out, we will be better able to judge this non-trade. Too close to call it in absolute terms right now, IMO.

  122. Bronx Jeers January 9th, 2011 at 11:53 am

    The salary cap thing with A-Gon is because it is an extension.

    ———————————————————————-

    “I see” said the blind man….. Thanks

  123. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 11:53 am

    austinmac January 9th, 2011 at 11:44 am
    Feminista,

    You do know the Yankees are not sure Depaula can get a visa and his signing is contingent on it. You do know if Ramirez doesn’t develop the third pitch we will likely never hear from him again. Out of many with tools, few are chosen to ever play in the majors. The key is not keeping them all but keeping the very best.
    ______
    De Paula will likely get a visa. We took pains to wait until we believed it was possible.

    As for Ramirez, he still has plenty of time, and he is well ahead of the game b/c he has a power FB and a ridiculous changeup. And he may very well be one of the very best. We felt we could trade Vizcaino because of Ramirez. Time will tell, but he still has a better shot at being a front of rotation pitcher than most of the pitchers out there.

    Yes, I am very discriminating actually about who I refer to as an A prospect. I have no illusions about all top prospects succeeding. lol regarding that remark. However, I will choose high ceiling arms over close to majors but middling stuff all day long. So, will the Yanks. Not to is foolhardy.

  124. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 11:54 am

    without looking at anything rationally, intuitively i’d say the rays will take a significant step backwards this year.

    i think they have taken themselves out of the wildcard competition.

    the beauty of intuition is it takes three seconds unlike that pesky rational baseball stuff of WAR and ERA+ that takes hours to figure out what you think :)

  125. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 11:56 am

    Tar January 9th, 2011 at 11:51 am
    ” I am just reemphasizing that Lee doesn’t necessarily = World Series. I am a conscientious reader, so be assured, that wasn’t my intention.

    Agree. Closer to, but not =.

    BTW, I think you do a great job of posting, just don’t miss quote me anymore. j/k

    In a couple of years when we see how Montero’s career and Lee’s contract are actually turning out, we will be better able to judge this non-trade. Too close to call it in absolute terms right now, IMO.
    ______________________
    Well, sure we can’t foresee the future, but still wouldn’t trade our top prospect for a two month rental, even if it were King Felix, himself.

  126. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 11:58 am

    “So now we know why you still post here.”

    maine yankee-

    lohud pays me to stir things up.

    don’t they pay you ?

  127. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 11:59 am

    randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 11:54 am
    without looking at anything rationally, intuitively i’d say the rays will take a significant step backwards this year.

    i think they have taken themselves out of the wildcard competition.

    the beauty of intuition is it takes three seconds unlike that pesky rational baseball stuff of WAR and ERA+ that takes hours to figure out what you think
    ________
    lol, and I will intuitively say that the Rays will compete for the WC or better in ’11. It will be interesting to see what they turn that Garza money into.

  128. BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 12:00 pm

    JAP–Promotion of prospects to fanbase sounds like a good idea.

    ————
    Several of you are wondering about Cashman’s commitment to prospects when he was willing to trade Montero for a 2 month rental.

    You seem to forget the situation at the time.

    Montero was struggling offensively, and there was word that his attitude was poor. It did not seem like he was going to be good enough defensively to play C, and that meant he could only DH–a position that can be filled for $5M in any off-season.

    Posada was not looking as bad defensively as he did later in the season, and Cervelli offered some hope as a decent backstop–even if he had to be the #1 catcher.

    At the time, Cashman felt Romine and Sanchez and Cervelli gave him enough protection that made Montero less valuable.

    It was only in the second half that Montero caught fire, improved his attitude and catching, and ROmine and Cervelli and Posada looked worse. At that point, it seemed obvious that we need to keep Montero…but hindsight is always 20-20.

  129. MaineYankee January 9th, 2011 at 12:01 pm

    randy

    don’t they pay you ?

    ———————————————————————–

    For what? Being a nice guy and peacemaker. :lol:

  130. MaineYankee January 9th, 2011 at 12:03 pm

    randy

    without looking at anything rationally

    ——————————————————————

    You mean like 90% of your posts?

  131. 108 stitches January 9th, 2011 at 12:04 pm

    Now that the dust has settled, I believe that most will agree that putting all the eggs in one basket for Lee was not the way to go even in a poor free agency year.
    What’s bothersome is that right now, Sergio Mitre is projected to be the No. 5 starter.
    The Lee money is still there short of what was spent on Martin and Feliciano.
    Rather than Mitre (who should be a long man in the bullpen at best), why hasn’t Cashman probed into deals for Wandy Rodriquez, or Carlos Zambrano in assuming of Pettitte not returning ?
    It would bide time for one more year of development for the best of young arms in the system.

  132. Cashman needs to go January 9th, 2011 at 12:04 pm

    For me, this team only has 2 weaknesses. Lack of 2 starting pitchers. Unfortunately, that is a fatal flaw. Good thing baseball is a long season because they’ll have the rest of off season and 3 months to figure this out.

    ****************************************

    the yankees have been 2 starting pitchers short since may of last year…in 3 months it’ll be a year that they are 2 starters (3 if pettite retires) short..how much f’ing time do you give this retard of a GM (my apologies to the handicapped comparing them to cashman) to find even 1 decent starter in a year……and to think that eduardo f’ing nunez was the deal killer in one of those trades is absolutely ridiculous…especially considering that you just gave a washed up 37 year old shortstop 17 million dollars a year for the next 3 (and possibly 4) years which for intents and purposes eliminates nunez from being a starter for this team for at least 3 more years…

  133. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 12:07 pm

    Tar January 9th, 2011 at 11:34 am
    “you’re right,it could have, but watching the events,it’s clear lee wanted Philly.”

    J. Alfred Prufrock

    But the events I am talking about are 2 months playing for the greates franchise in the history of sports , topped off with a walk down the Canyon of heroes. Quite a different scenario.

    Now for the record I would not have traded Montero for a 2 month rental of Lee.

    “To equate getting Lee with an automatic WS championship is a leap.”

    Yankeefeminista

    I guess you missed the part where I posted “could have”.

    ////

    Tar, I understand your point. & it seems we agree we wouldn’t make that trade.But I also don’t view that exchange as particularly reasonable.the yankees have a habit of becoming tantalized by lefthanded pitchers who beat them & are ready to dive into anything at all to acquire them & remove them from the opponent mound.you might say they are even a little feverish about this.but the fact is, the yankees have a young lefthanded who is really no more than a couple of seasons away from the majors.they don’t need to sacrifice a guy who is considered one of the best power hitters they’ve ever produced for a 32yr old, whether he re-signed or even helped them win another championship.

    Randy Johnson is the other “must have” lefthander who came here as an older pitcher.he clearly helped them win the division with so many wins over Boston (and 17 wins that one yr) but didn’t help them win a WS,in fact, his postseason pitching in both 2005 & 2006 helped cost them from advancing,which they really should have predicted – I did & I’m just some guy on a blog,right?

    What’s lesser known is that the yanks were saved from making a similar mistake with Robbie Cano they were prepared to make last fall with Montero.The Diamondbacks were offered Cano in the Johnson deal,but Arizona rejected Cano. well, take out your handkerchief and wipe away at your forehead on that one.when this gets brought up,all the cashmanphiles cry that George was willing to do it,not cashman,who had no such power until he rebelled long & loud to gain control (which,I admit,turned the franchise in a much more viable direction).I even accepted this explanation, until Cashman himself was ready to dump Montero for two months of Cliff Lee.

    gee, I reasoned: wants to trade talented young bat for over-30 lefthanded pitcher….hmmm….rings a bell??now Robbie wasn’t touted anywhere near Montero,but the fact is the yanks who had him in their system should have been familiar with his potential.he’s the best hitter on the team & I would say he is the best position player in all of baseball right now.shouldn’t the yanks have had an inkling about Cano?? & in the case of Montero,who is unilaterally considered a monster in the making,who would trade that for a 32 yr old pitcher???was this sandy koufax we were getting??& there was no functional George to pin this on,it was all Cash.

    Lucky man, that got turned down when he offered Cano and then Montero on a silver platter.it’s one thing to cry that pitching wins championships.I’d like to know,however,how the yanks win the 2009 WS without Robinson Cano?? GREAT offensive players at prime positions are as valuable as good pitching,whose efforts they help to stand up.

  134. MaineYankee January 9th, 2011 at 12:09 pm

    108 stitches January 9th, 2011 at 12:04 pm
    Now that the dust has settled, I believe that most will agree that putting all the eggs in one basket for Lee was not the way to go even in a poor free agency year.
    What’s bothersome is that right now, Sergio Mitre is projected to be the No. 5 starter.
    The Lee money is still there short of what was spent on Martin and Feliciano.
    Rather than Mitre (who should be a long man in the bullpen at best), why hasn’t Cashman probed into deals for Wandy Rodriquez, or Carlos Zambrano in assuming of Pettitte not returning ?
    It would bide time for one more year of development for the best of young arms in the system

    ———————————————————————————————

    How do you know he hasn’t done that?

    I don’t understand all the agnst about what this team will look like for the coming season on Jan. 9.

  135. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 12:09 pm

    BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 12:00 pm
    JAP–Promotion of prospects to fanbase sounds like a good idea.

    ————
    Several of you are wondering about Cashman’s commitment to prospects when he was willing to trade Montero for a 2 month rental.

    You seem to forget the situation at the time.

    Montero was struggling offensively, and there was word that his attitude was poor. It did not seem like he was going to be good enough defensively to play C, and that meant he could only DH–a position that can be filled for $5M in any off-season.

    Posada was not looking as bad defensively as he did later in the season, and Cervelli offered some hope as a decent backstop–even if he had to be the #1 catcher.

    At the time, Cashman felt Romine and Sanchez and Cervelli gave him enough protection that made Montero less valuable.

    It was only in the second half that Montero caught fire, improved his attitude and catching, and ROmine and Cervelli and Posada looked worse. At that point, it seemed obvious that we need to keep Montero…but hindsight is always 20-20
    _________
    I would doubt though that they would reduce their evaluation of Montero to a few short months, especially considering he was jumping up to AAA, was coming back from a hand injury, and that some of our inside people were actually saying he had improved behind the plate. Add to that Romine’s purported defensive struggles, and not sure when his hitting dearth occurred (too lazy to look). However, Romine’s bat was god awful for a certain stretch in the summer, going into the playoffs. Meanwhile Sanchez is so far away from playing, as are all our top kiddy prospects.

    Therefore, I’d have to think for more than that short stretch they were having their doubts about Montero as a catcher… which has likely been going on for a couple of years. Still if he can catch and DH with that exceptional righty bat of his, he still has a lot of value, though obviously not as much as a fulltime mlb catcher… However, if we *were* going to deal Montero, I would prefer to go for a younger top of rotation pitcher, and certainly not a two month rental.

  136. tyanksfan36 January 9th, 2011 at 12:10 pm

    I think the Rays will be fine this season. Which upsets me. They have that annoying upstart thing about them. They will find ways to win games behind their excellent pitching. I think they will be contenders for a long time now because their farm system is so deep and they can make good trades because of it. And Matt Moore will probably be ready for ML in 3 years or so and he is good.

  137. LGY January 9th, 2011 at 12:13 pm

    Derek Lowe. Discuss.

  138. BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 12:13 pm

    Other lefties the Yanks just had to have:
    Tommy John
    Don Gullet

  139. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 12:14 pm

    Right, again we have no idea what Cash has or hadn’t looked at in terms of Wandy, Zambrano or anyone else. And it is only Jan. 9th. Why do we need to act already, when we are likely still being perceived as acting from a position of weakness? I love that Cash isn’t acting yet. Bide your time, and please, Cash, I hope it is not just rhetoric.

  140. BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 12:14 pm

    LGY January 9th, 2011 at 12:13 pm

    Derek Lowe. Discuss.
    ++++++++++
    Bruce Chen. Sign.

  141. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 12:15 pm

    “In a couple of years when we see how Montero’s career and Lee’s contract are actually turning out, we will be better able to judge this non-trade. Too close to call it in absolute terms right now, IMO.”

    tar-

    the upside of a hitter who may be a top ten hitter in all of baseball is way too valuable to dangle for a two month rental for any player in baseball.

    it certainly makes zero sense for a gm who professes to be developing from within to consider trading a player like this for a rental player.

    not saying you are, but the people who are blindly loyal to cashman remind me of people who are blindly patriotic to our country no matter what’s done and what the results are.

    in the late 60′s, “america, love it or leave it” bumper stickers were everywhere. this blog seems to have metaphorical”yankees, love them or leave them” bumper stickers everywhere.

    i think people have to “question authority” which was another bumper sticker from back then.

    to me that’s real patriotism and real loyalty.

    the blind loyalty to whoever is in power with the yankees to often is the norm on the blog.
    dave eiland is a genius and really good until he leaves and then he’s demoted to being the reason that yankee pitching underachieved .

    i’m simply saying that cashman needs to be held to a vary high standard because of his importance in the yankee hierarchy and all his moves need to be questioned at all times.

  142. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 12:15 pm

    Tar January 9th, 2011 at 11:51 am
    ” I am just reemphasizing that Lee doesn’t necessarily = World Series. I am a conscientious reader, so be assured, that wasn’t my intention.

    Agree. Closer to, but not =.

    BTW, I think you do a great job of posting, just don’t miss quote me anymore. j/k

    In a couple of years when we see how Montero’s career and Lee’s contract are actually turning out, we will be better able to judge this non-trade. Too close to call it in absolute terms right now, IMO.
    _______
    My bad. I was so intent on the discussion that I failed to comment on this. Thanks for the props. I enjoy the stimulating conversation. :)

  143. Bo knows January 9th, 2011 at 12:16 pm

    so far , for the yankees major league team he has come up with a very good hughes and two average relievers in joba and robertson for 5 years of total control by cashman.

    that’s pathetic when someone says they are focusing on development from within.

    ———————————————————
    Randy

    Now I know you’re up to no good. Cashman was responsible for the 2006 draft, which is four years.
    Next Cashman is supposed to build a scouting staff overnight. Joba and Kennedy were anomalies and were rushed from need. When the ship is sinking, you patch with what’s available.

    Again you harp on development and then scorch Cashman for not rushing.

    How long does it take to develop a pitcher? Three to four years. Well lo and behold. There are three pitchers at AAA, another four at AA, the same at A and so on. Pitching development requires numbers and the Yankees have them.

    So at AAA Nova, Phelps, Noesi
    AA Brackman, Betances, Banuelos, Warren
    A Stonburner, Ramirez, Mitchell, Heredia

    My word we have a development system. The above are not just fillers.

    So first Cashman had to reorganise and develop a scouting system. Set up objectives and methodology. Hell, he even got retired scouts to come out and evaluate prospects.

    So instead of praising Cashman, you come to bury him. You can’t set up parameters and then discard them from personal motives.

    And the thing is that I’m not telling you things you don’t know. So, basically you’re bored and kibbitzing.

  144. BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 12:17 pm

    If Cashman was being told by his top advisor Billy Eppier that Montero was not performing up to expectations, wasn’t showing he could catch at major league level, had attitude problesm, and was projecting to be only a DH, then it makes sense that Cashman felt he could move him.

    I can’t fault Cashman…I do fault the talent advisor who also decided that Joba could only be a RP–Billy Eppier.

  145. MaineYankee January 9th, 2011 at 12:19 pm

    randy

    http://www.workingwaterfront.c.....ams/11243/

    This is the next book I’m going to read. I thought it might interest you.

    Did any of your family play in the Pine Tree League?

  146. West Coast Yankee Fan January 9th, 2011 at 12:20 pm

    The 2011 season is already shaping up to be one of the most interesting in a long time. In no particular order.

    1. Given their retooling, how good will the Red Sox be?
    2. Does Philly’s rotation provide an easy path for them to the World Series?
    3. How will the Yankees do in the standings given their lackluster off-season?
    4. What kind of year will Derek Jeter have?
    5. How will Jorge Posada perform at DH?
    6. What kind of impact will Jesus Montero make?
    7. Will any Yankee call-ups and young talent this year prove to be better than average?
    8. How will Joba perform?
    9. Will Curtis Granderson’s late results in 2010 become his norm?
    10. Is this the year Teixeira gets off to a better start?
    11. Does Gardner keep progressing?
    12. Will Mo still pitch like Mo at 42?
    13. Will AJ Burnett have a bounce-back year?
    14. Who will be the number four and five starters?
    15. Will A-Rod have an A-Rod type of year at the plate?
    16. Will Cano keep performing at the same level as he did last season?

  147. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 12:22 pm

    lohud pays me to stir things up.

    don’t they pay you ?

    ///

    I don’t know about lohud,but I daresay there a couple among us who get lunchmoney for propping up the boss (lower case b).& the thing is,I’m not joking.

  148. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 12:22 pm

    tyanksfan36 January 9th, 2011 at 12:10 pm
    I think the Rays will be fine this season. Which upsets me. They have that annoying upstart thing about them. They will find ways to win games behind their excellent pitching. I think they will be contenders for a long time now because their farm system is so deep and they can make good trades because of it. And Matt Moore will probably be ready for ML in 3 years or so and he is good.
    __________
    I know you are in enemy territory. But they *are* fun to watch. I have always enjoyed them when they come to NYS. Loved watching Crawford and BJ live patrol the Stadium outfield, particularly before it was “cool” to have such athleticism out there. Some great games against them. But I can understand your loathing, considering where you are based.

    Their pitching will be very good, but it will be interesting to see how Wade Davis will fair this year; he had a nice ending to his season. And Hellickson as well, with the innings limits.

    They still do need a few more bats though. A healthy Longoria, someone to protect him in the form of a DH who finally contributes will go a long way toward seeing how they do. Also I expect Zobrist to bounce back, not with 2009 power but much better OBP and some pop. Brignac as a full-timer will also be an important piece of the puzzle.

    With us, Boston, and Rays should be another fun year in the AL East. And Toronto pitching will be another plus of division. We are blessed.

  149. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 12:25 pm

    WCYF, Any predictions based on your long list of questions?

  150. blake January 9th, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    LGY,

    Lowe would be ok if it meant no meaningful prospects were going to Atlanta…..he can still pitch and eat innings fairly well……..your take?

  151. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    I wouldn’t say Montero has “attitude” problems. There was one incident. He is a kid. I wouldn’t be too quick to make that leap.

  152. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    i’m watching the extremely intelligent neurosurgeons talking about the arizona congresswoman’s shooting and it sticks me as amazing how andrew friedman went directly from the investment world to the baseball world with no baseball experience.

    think if friedman tried to be a brain surgeon after training as a financial analyst. no way could he do it. but the tampa bay gm position was a piece of cake. i realize that the mathematical skillset he has is helpful because gms do deal with numbers, but what does it say about the quality of the other mlb gms who have done this for a very long time that a guy can come in and just kill them in term of getting the job done ?

    i think it says we have to reevaluate the way we look at the gm position.

  153. Patrick January 9th, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    17. Will WCYF stop posting moronic things on Lohud blogs?

    Signs point to no

  154. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 12:29 pm

    BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 12:17 pm
    If Cashman was being told by his top advisor Billy Eppier that Montero was not performing up to expectations, wasn’t showing he could catch at major league level, had attitude problesm, and was projecting to be only a DH, then it makes sense that Cashman felt he could move him.

    I can’t fault Cashman…I do fault the talent advisor who also decided that Joba could only be a RP–Billy Eppier.
    ________
    I doubt we would make the leap to Montero not performing up to expectations though. He has hit everywhere. We are going to wait for Gardner to start hitting IN THE MAJORS but not Montero in AAA when he is coming off a layoff, hand injury and has pulverized the ball at every level.

    And then, trade Montero for a two month rental? It just sounds utterly far-fetched to me. As if Cash were smoking something illegal.

  155. Patrick January 9th, 2011 at 12:31 pm

    randy,

    I think that people who don’t have preconceptions of how baseball is supposed to work, combined with an analytical mind (and all the other qualities a good GM has like dealing with the media and his peers) will have success as a GM. The problem is that there are so many misconceptions that many “baseball people” accept as fact.

  156. LGY January 9th, 2011 at 12:32 pm

    blake,

    The more I look at Lowe’s stats the more I like him. Even in 2009 when it seemed he struggled, it may have not been as bad as it looked at first glance. 4.06 FIP in 2009. Doesn’t hurt he is a proven postseason pitcher and always wants the ball in a big game.

    The thing that is weird to me is how often he is taken out with an low pitch count. The Braves take him out under 100 pitches all the time.

    I only catch the occasional Braves game so I am not sure why this is. Is it an age/stamina thing or a pinch hit NL thing? Do you have any idea?

    I am also not sure if the Braves would still move him. May be a midseason guy now.

  157. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 12:33 pm

    first answer that pops in my mind:
    1. Given their retooling, how good will the Red Sox be? a little better
    2. Does Philly’s rotation provide an easy path for them to the World Series?yes
    3. How will the Yankees do in the standings given their lackluster off-season?ok
    4. What kind of year will Derek Jeter have?better
    5. How will Jorge Posada perform at DH?excellent
    6. What kind of impact will Jesus Montero make? hard to make it from scranton
    7. Will any Yankee call-ups and young talent this year prove to be better than average? no
    8. How will Joba perform? when he’ stretched out in june too fast he’ll hurt his arm in august
    9. Will Curtis Granderson’s late results in 2010 become his norm? maybe
    10. Is this the year Teixeira gets off to a better start?
    11. Does Gardner keep progressing?yes
    12. Will Mo still pitch like Mo at 42? not quite as good
    13. Will AJ Burnett have a bounce-back year? he can’t do any worse, but will be somewhat better
    14. Who will be the number four and five starters? nova and ………………….i have no idea
    15. Will A-Rod have an A-Rod type of year at the plate?
    16. Will Cano keep performing at the same level as he did last season? he’ll be better

  158. Bo knows January 9th, 2011 at 12:34 pm

    i think it says we have to reevaluate the way we look at the gm position.

    —————————————————————-
    re Friedman

    Of course getting all of the Yankees development people en masse (the Tampa connection) had nothing to do with it.

    Management is a skill that translates. The best managers are the ones that surround themselves with the best people. It’s not as if Cashman has your knowledge and experience of baseball. He has to depend on others with that skill set

  159. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 12:35 pm

    “10. Is this the year Teixeira gets off to a better start?” there’s no way to do worse so he has to do better.

  160. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 12:36 pm

    15. Will A-Rod have an A-Rod type of year at the plate? not like the good old days

  161. BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 12:36 pm

    yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    I wouldn’t say Montero has “attitude” problems. There was one incident. He is a kid. I wouldn’t be too quick to make that leap.
    ++++++++++++
    I wouldn’t say he had problems either, BUT that was the rumor that was apparently going around and Eppier was the one who made the call.

    Again, Cashman is not the scout, and has to rely on what his talent evaluators tell him when determining whether or not to make a deal.

    His talent evaluators apparently were telling him that Montero was a DH–which had a much lower value than catcher. In that case, Cashman woud have been right to move him before the rest of the majors figured out the same thing.

    Thankfully, Montero changed opinions or at least has seemed to. If they do trade him, it will be because they see him as only a DH due to Eppier’s analysis.

  162. Against All Odds January 9th, 2011 at 12:36 pm

    yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 12:09 pm

    I would doubt though that they would reduce their evaluation of Montero to a few short months, especially considering he was jumping up to AAA,

    ———————————

    I hope so too but Yankees seem to fall out of love quickly when it comes to prospects but yet Cashman is preaching patience. Hmmmmmmmmmmm

  163. Rich in NJ January 9th, 2011 at 12:37 pm

    “I am glad that they did not trade Montero, But unless you live in a parallel universe or something, you don’t know how that trade might have turned out.”

    That’s the point, it wasn’t a risk worth taking, even if they had won the WS. You don’t trade a bat that projects to be a generational talent for a rental, or any player over 29.

  164. joeman January 9th, 2011 at 12:38 pm

    allow me

    # West Coast Yankee Fan January 9th, 2011 at 12:20 pm

    The 2011 season is already shaping up to be one of the most interesting in a long time. In no particular order.

    1. Given their retooling, how good will the Red Sox be?……..Division Winner
    2. Does Philly’s rotation provide an easy path for them to the World Series?…….WS Winner
    3. How will the Yankees do in the standings given their lackluster off-season?……trouble making playoffs..as of now
    4. What kind of year will Derek Jeter have?…..around .285…100+ RS…20 SB’s…..10 hrs
    5. How will Jorge Posada perform at DH?…….depends on his mind set
    6. What kind of impact will Jesus Montero make?………none will be in minors most of the year if not all
    7. Will any Yankee call-ups and young talent this year prove to be better than average?….nope
    8. How will Joba perform?…like to see him back as a SP…..RP same as he’s been doing
    9. Will Curtis Granderson’s late results in 2010 become his norm?…..will be a better hitter this year
    10. Is this the year Teixeira gets off to a better start?…..will be a better hitter this year & off to a better start
    11. Does Gardner keep progressing?…..has to learn how to bunt
    12. Will Mo still pitch like Mo at 42?…….Mo will struggle a little more this year age does that
    13. Will AJ Burnett have a bounce-back year?…Yes
    14. Who will be the number four and five starters?……..what they have now unless they sign a Garcia..Bonderman type
    15. Will A-Rod have an A-Rod type of year at the plate?……ARod will do what he does, hit HRS and drive in runs average will drop
    16. Will Cano keep performing at the same level as he did last season?…Yes & might be better at driving in runs depending where he hits

  165. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 12:38 pm

    “Of course getting all of the Yankees development people en masse (the Tampa connection) had nothing to do with it.”

    bo knows-

    was that when livesay and everyone was fired?

    who was responsible for that by the way?

  166. blake January 9th, 2011 at 12:39 pm

    LGY,

    I watch a lot of Braves games and you’re right they have had a pretty quick hook with him on many occasions. Im not totally sure the reasoning but as he tires his sinker starts to flaten out so maybe its somewhat of a preventative measure. He’s a guy that will compete that’s for sure and he’s very comfortable on a big stage…..I agree that Im not sure they would move him right now as well as they are going to be competitive in that division and for the WC…….but he is their biggest yearly contract and Im guessing they would like to move it at some point. He would be a good #4 IMO.

  167. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 12:41 pm

    BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 12:36 pm
    yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    I wouldn’t say Montero has “attitude” problems. There was one incident. He is a kid. I wouldn’t be too quick to make that leap.
    ++++++++++++
    I wouldn’t say he had problems either, BUT that was the rumor that was apparently going around and Eppier was the one who made the call.

    Again, Cashman is not the scout, and has to rely on what his talent evaluators tell him when determining whether or not to make a deal.

    His talent evaluators apparently were telling him that Montero was a DH–which had a much lower value than catcher. In that case, Cashman woud have been right to move him before the rest of the majors figured out the same thing.

    Thankfully, Montero changed opinions or at least has seemed to. If they do trade him, it will be because they see him as only a DH due to Eppier’s analysis
    ______
    But this would be so knee-jerk based on the antithetical Montero history of hitting. Further, you would never trade Montero for a two month rental? If you were to trade him at all, you would save him for a greater harvest, someone front end and young.

  168. 108 stitches January 9th, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    It must be getting close to “barn time” in Maryland with Burnett being observed by Rothschild.
    I’ll be there in Tampa the day pitchers and catchers have their first workout and anxiously await to see what condition Chamberlain is in.

  169. BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 12:44 pm

    I think saying Joba was a RP only was knee jerk too, so it didn’t surprise me. Again, I blame Eppier for providing wrong advice, not Cashman for changing his stated strategy.

  170. Rich in NJ January 9th, 2011 at 12:44 pm

    randy

    “under pressure he chokes like a dog.

    that’s how you get him dangling montero for a 2 month rental of lee.”

    We don’t know whether or not that type of move was pushed by ownership.

    If it was a Cashman-generated move, then it’s a big strike against him, but it’s kind of hyperbolic to say he choked liked a dog.

    Also, part of the reason that is often given for the Yankees making short-sighted moves is that they have to win as many WS as possible while Mo, Jeter, A-Rod, Po and Pettitte are still around (I think that’s dumb, but that isn’t the point).

    IF that’s really what the Yankees think, doesn’t it make sense to give any of the core the shortest contract possible so the temptation to make such moves is short? Yet, iirc, you wanted Jeter to get a longer contract.

    “so far , for the yankees major league team he has come up with a very good hughes and two average relievers in joba and robertson for 5 years of total control by cashman.”

    Let’s see what happens to Montero and the Killer Bs before writing off Cash’s plan.

    If they don’t pan out or are traded for aging (over 29) or less than star players, I’m with you.

  171. West Coast Yankee Fan January 9th, 2011 at 12:44 pm

    yankeefeminista – I’m not wild about making predictions. I prefer to observe and just give my opinion based on what I see as I can’t predict the future. And who can predict injuries, age related deterioration in skills, etc. If pressed, I can only make an educated guess. If I turn out to be right, it’s just luck. Heck, I don’t know what will happen.

    That having been said, I’ll give it a shot. I think whatever the Yankees roster turns out to be, the team will be competitive. I think Boston significantly improved themselves and that Toronto and especially Baltimore will be better teams. I think Philly’s rotation is a dominant one, but I have questions about their age and bullpen.

    I think Derek Jeter will have a better year but will not ever perform at the level he did in 2009 again.

    I think Jorge Posada will do well, but not great at DH.

    I would guess that Jesus Montero gets called up in June and proves to be a good hitter who will have the peaks and valleys a rookie is susceptible to.

    I think Brackman might be the one young player to have a good year in the pen.

    I suspect Joba will perform well in the pen but still have major lapses in performance.

    I believe Curtis Granderson’s will have a good year but still be limited by his inability to hit lefties consistently and strikeout a lot.

    I don’t think Teixeira will get off to a better start. It’s in his head and I see flaws in his uppercut swing I hope he fixes

    I am not a huge Gardner fan. I’m not sure he will progress much and the Yankees may regret not dealing him when his wrist was healthy.

    Until he proves otherwise, Mo will stillstill pitch like Mo.

    Unfortunately I think AJ Burnett is a lost cause. He’s 34 now and lost velocity last year.

    Who will be the number four and five starters? You got me on that one. Nova and someone other than Mitre TBD.

    A-Rod will have a good year at the plate, but I don’t think we will see forty home runs again.

    Cano to me is the real deal and I expect a .310 to .320 BA and 200 hits.

  172. blake January 9th, 2011 at 12:46 pm

    If the Yanks could trade for Zambrano and his 38 million remaining or Lowe and his 30 million remaining which would be better and why? Lowe is a little less money and a little less risk but the upside isn’t as high and he’s older.

  173. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 12:47 pm

    dave eiland is a genius and really good until he leaves and then he’s demoted to being the reason that yankee pitching underachieved .

    ////
    nah, eiland has always sucked.

  174. Bo knows January 9th, 2011 at 12:48 pm

    who was responsible for that by the way?
    ——————————————————-

    Actually if memory serves and I admit I’d have to look up Livesey, I think it was Big George when he fired the whole scouting staff because they were making too much money.

    note; Had to be because Cashmn had Livesey evaluating Culver last year.

    The reason I know is, it was just a blurb (pre internet) and I remember screaming about it for a year. It became a standing joke Hide the suds, or we’ll get to hear about George all night.

  175. Rich in NJ January 9th, 2011 at 12:48 pm

    I wouldn’t trade for Zambrano or Lowe without a significant subsidization, particularly of the 2nd year.

  176. Against All Odds January 9th, 2011 at 12:49 pm

    BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 12:17 pm

    I can’t fault Cashman…I do fault the talent advisor who also decided that Joba could only be a RP–Billy Eppier.

    ————————————————————————–

    So Eppler rears his ugly head again lol

  177. BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 12:49 pm

    Blake–Neither IMO. I would keep the slot open for the prospects at AAA

  178. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 12:50 pm

    blake January 9th, 2011 at 12:39 pm
    LGY,

    I watch a lot of Braves games and you’re right they have had a pretty quick hook with him on many occasions. Im not totally sure the reasoning but as he tires his sinker starts to flaten out so maybe its somewhat of a preventative measure. He’s a guy that will compete that’s for sure and he’s very comfortable on a big stage…..I agree that Im not sure they would move him right now as well as they are going to be competitive in that division and for the WC…….but he is their biggest yearly contract and Im guessing they would like to move it at some point. He would be a good #4 IMO.
    _______
    I believe 3rd time around Lowe’s numbers really decline.

    For those who see him, any comments on why Lowe has pretty much abandoned his slider for his change?

  179. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 12:50 pm

    LGY-

    did you give me me erroneous FIP stats yesterday reading them backwards ( ie wrong?)

    Starters: 4.31 FIP (3rd AL)
    Team: 4.32 FIP (4th AL)
    Starters: 4.30 xFIP (3rd AL)
    Team: 4.23 xFIP (2nd AL)

    does this really show the yankees were third from the bottom?

  180. blake January 9th, 2011 at 12:50 pm

    Rich,

    I don’t think I would either but let’s assume thats part of the deal.

  181. BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 12:50 pm

    Although I would like to see them sign Bruce Chen for 1 year at $3M. I could live with him as #4 starter until July 31. He did much better last year once he started, and his change up improved significantly.

  182. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 12:51 pm

    oJo January 9th, 2011 at 12:44 pm
    I think saying Joba was a RP only was knee jerk too, so it didn’t surprise me. Again, I blame Eppier for providing wrong advice, not Cashman for changing his stated strategy.

    ///

    some adventurous media type should ask cashman how much input Eppler has on his decision making.can you imagine if this guy made the call on montero & it had gone through & also scuttled Joba the Starter on the first go round?in which case cashman would still be responsible for letting this guy call the shots.

  183. LGY January 9th, 2011 at 12:51 pm

    randy,

    No, why? Those stats were from 2009 btw which I put at the top of the post. Are you looking at 2010?

  184. joeman January 9th, 2011 at 12:51 pm

    # 108 stitches January 9th, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    It must be getting close to “barn time” in Maryland with Burnett being observed by Rothschild.
    I’ll be there in Tampa the day pitchers and catchers have their first workout and anxiously await to see what condition Chamberlain is in.
    —————————————————————-
    saw a couple of photos of him on 1/2/11 he looked like he lost some weight, his face looked thinner, but he gained his weight last year as the season went on…

  185. West Coast Yankee Fan January 9th, 2011 at 12:52 pm

    Patrick January 9th, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    17. Will WCYF stop posting moronic things on Lohud blogs? Signs point to no

    *****************

    I thought my questions as to 2011 were reasonable ones and obviously, so did some others here as well. Since you brought up the subject Patrick, by “posting moronic things” are you maybe referring to this post you made last night where you contend that Michael Vick was doing us a favor by killing dogs?

    Patrick January 9th, 2011 at 1:31 am

    Also a human won’t bite your damn face off. Dogs can defend themselves. If Vick was participating in rabbit fights I’d put him in jail and throw away the key. But the fact of the matter is, Vick was doing us a favor by ridding the world of many dangerous dogs.

  186. blake January 9th, 2011 at 12:52 pm

    Feminsta,

    I don’t know.why…..but he cetainly has to some degree.

  187. mick January 9th, 2011 at 12:53 pm

    “I see” said the blind man…..
    ++++++++++++++++
    …to his deaf wife.

  188. joeman January 9th, 2011 at 12:55 pm

    # West Coast Yankee Fan January 9th, 2011 at 12:52 pm

    Patrick January 9th, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    17. Will WCYF stop posting moronic things on Lohud blogs? Signs point to no

    *****************

    I thought my questions as to 2011 were reasonable ones and obviously, so did some others here as well. Since you brought up the subject Patrick, by “posting moronic things” are you maybe referring to this post you made last night where you contend that Michael Vick was doing us a favor by killing dogs?

    Patrick January 9th, 2011 at 1:31 am

    Also a human won’t bite your damn face off. Dogs can defend themselves. If Vick was participating in rabbit fights I’d put him in jail and throw away the key. But the fact of the matter is, Vick was doing us a favor by ridding the world of many dangerous dogs.
    ——————————————————————–

    that F..Up

  189. Tar January 9th, 2011 at 12:57 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock and randy

    Excellent replies. Thanks

  190. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    WCYF, I think part of Teix’s slow start problem is has he has said that he is a switchy and it is much harder to get in sync.

    I wonder how cold weather with so many home games will play into Yankees start with so many of our players disdaining the cold weather.

    I think Posada will be above league average at DH, and love that he is a switchy. Vlad tired but had good numbers and really nice splits. Manny had nice splits, but no SLG to speak of. DH triple slashes and splits are pretty god awful generally.

    The rest I will consider after a long-delayed breakfast…


    Anyone rooting in KC-Balt game? What’s the spread?

  191. BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 12:51 pm

    some adventurous media type should ask cashman how much input Eppler has on his decision making.can you imagine if this guy made the call on montero & it had gone through & also scuttled Joba the Starter on the first go round?in which case cashman would still be responsible for letting this guy call the shots.
    ++++++++++++
    TOTALLY AGREED!

    On both counts.

    I wouldn’t expect a straight answer out of Cashman, so the question would have to be worded something like:

    “Your talent evaluators have made calls that many hard-core fans find questionable–such as making Montero available for a 2 month rental, claiming Nunez was a deal breaker, and categorizing Joba as only a relief pitcher with no chance to reach his possible potential as a starter. These are judgement calls that will significantly impact your performance as a GM. Are you comfortable with depending that much on judgment calls from the same people or do you have safeguards and counter perspectives in place that you use to make sure you are getting the best possible advice?”

  192. Drive 4-6 January 9th, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    It’s premature to say that holding on to the first round draft pick is a mistake. We all may congratulate Cashman for his patience if it turns out to be a good pick.

    But if the the pick turns bad and the Yanks gave up an opportunity to have a shut down bullpen to go with a weak rotation. it could ugly for Cash. If it werent for Granderson’s 2nd half turnaround, last year’s offseason would grade an F. No one was the least bit surprised when Nick Johnson went down or Vazquez proved he can’t pitch in the American League for once and for all.

    Cash certainly can’t be blamed for Cliff Lee’s decision to leave all the money on the table. But this offseason could make for two poor ones in a row for Cash. In New York no one survives 3, let alone 2. This pick they are protecting like gold better not turn into the next CJ Henry. Cash needs to get creative here in a hurry. At the Winter Meetings he complained that he sometimes feels like the manger of the Yankee checkbook. Well it’s time to prove he can get creative, and fast.

  193. BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 12:59 pm

    Or perhaps

    “Your talent evaluators have made calls that many hard-core fans find questionable–such as making Montero available for a 2 month rental, claiming Nunez was a deal breaker, and categorizing Joba as only a relief pitcher with no chance to reach his possible potential as a starter. These are judgement calls that will significantly impact your performance as a GM. Are you comfortable with depending that much on judgment calls from the same people or do you have safeguards and counter perspectives in place that you use to make sure you are getting the best possible advice? What do you do to test their advice?”

  194. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 12:59 pm

    “No, why? Those stats were from 2009 btw which I put at the top of the post. Are you looking at 2010?”

    lgy-

    ah, now i see.

    could you put in a link when you give stats like this?

    i think it clears up confusion and also would be valuable for other people on looking at these stats.

    also thanks for getting me to look at this because i noticed the twins in 2010 were second in the league in FIP and the yankees were 11th in FIP .

    now if i figure how if i care about FIP, i may have something to use against you :)

  195. UpState January 9th, 2011 at 12:59 pm

    Patrick January 9th, 2011 at 12:27 pm
    17. Will WCYF stop posting moronic things on Lohud blogs?

    Signs point to no
    ————————————-

    You’re kidding us….WCYF just gave you some legitimate topics/concerns/opinions for :
    your input and opinion;
    discussion or…
    to read responses to….

    If they are taxing to read and/or respond to ….. skip them …..and wait for Muppet-crap….

  196. joeman January 9th, 2011 at 1:00 pm

    # yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    WCYF, I think part of Teix’s slow start problem is has he has said that he is a switchy and it is much harder to get in sync.

    I wonder how cold weather with so many home games will play into Yankees start with so many of our players disdaining the cold weather.

    I think Posada will be above league average at DH, and love that he is a switchy. Vlad tired but had good numbers and really nice splits. Manny had nice splits, but no SLG to speak of. DH triple slashes and splits are pretty god awful generally.

    The rest I will consider after a long-delayed breakfast…


    Anyone rooting in KC-Balt game? What’s the spread?
    ————————-
    -Balt -3…o/u 40.5

  197. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 1:01 pm

    http://www.fangraphs.com/teams.....ason1=2010

    here’s the link to that 2010 FIP

  198. Against All Odds January 9th, 2011 at 1:01 pm

    # BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 12:44 pm

    I think saying Joba was a RP only was knee jerk too, so it didn’t surprise me. Again, I blame Eppier for providing wrong advice, not Cashman for changing his stated strategy.

    ——————————————-

    If that’s the case than Cashman needs better scouts that don’t make knee jerk reactions.

  199. Rich in NJ January 9th, 2011 at 1:01 pm

    blake

    I would want $15m from the Cubs or the Braves.

  200. 86w183 January 9th, 2011 at 1:04 pm

    Lowe projects to about 190 innings and a 4.50 or higher ERA. Yanks already have one guy making tons of money in that category. They don’t need another.

    Big “Z” has a complete no trade and has told the Cubs he won’t go anywhere. Maybe that’s changed, but I sorta doubt it. Besides, Chicago’s trade for Garza debunks speculation by some here that they are in clearance sale mode.

    I’m fine with the No. 5 slot going to Nova/Noesi/Whomever but not two rotation slots.

    Chen might do okay. He’s been pretty inconsistent throughout his career though and that’s a concern.

    I love player development, but if I can trade ANY minor leaguers for one of the best starts in the game, a guy with a proven track record in the post-season I will do it EVERY time. You don’t do it for any deal (no way on Soria), but to say you never trade a high level prospect when you are the New York Yankees is nuts.

    If SF offered Lincecum for Montero right now would you turn it down? I wouldn’t.

  201. blake January 9th, 2011 at 1:04 pm

    Rich,

    I doubt either would give that much unless pretty decent prospects are included…..Cubs would be more likely to I think.

  202. BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 1:05 pm

    Drive 4-6 January 9th, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    This pick they are protecting like gold better not turn into the next CJ Henry. Cash needs to get creative here in a hurry.
    ++++++++
    Hey! That’s unfair!

    CJ Henry was the best starting point guard still on the board!

  203. LGY January 9th, 2011 at 1:05 pm

    randy,

    I believe Cashman talked about acquiring power arms before the 2008 offseason. CC and AJ fit that mold in 2009. Vazquez fit that mold in 2010.

    I think he is 1 for 2. 2009 that plan obviously worked out well. Top 3 in the AL in those advanced metrics and best pitching team in the 2009 playoffs. 2010 Burnett was terrible and Vazquez just completely lost it despite being such a great strikeout pitcher in years prior.

  204. Bo knows January 9th, 2011 at 1:06 pm

    Eppler is a pro scout and his job is to scout the pros.

    Besides on a Joba evaluation the Yankees would consult and get input from all their pitching experts. I’m sure they’re aware that a starter at 200 innings has more value than a reliever at 60. Joba seems to be all about slot ie repeating delivery and body maintenance. Then there is the mental aspect, as in headcase. AJ anyone.

    Hughes went the BP and thrived, Joba was all over the place.

    I’ve always felt that the BP route was the best at developing ML pitchers as in Earl of Baltimore

  205. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 1:06 pm

    by the way billy eppler to my knowledge has no background in pitching.

    why is he all of a sudden some kind of genius pitching advisor ?

    i think he’s really overrated in his pitching judgement.

    i think this is another case of too few advisors sitting around the table without a diversity of ideas.

  206. LGY January 9th, 2011 at 1:07 pm

    “Lowe projects to about 190 innings and a 4.50 or higher ERA. Yanks already have one guy making tons of money in that category. They don’t need another.”

    ——————

    Where is that projection coming from?

  207. yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 1:08 pm

    joeman January 9th, 2011 at 1:00 pm
    # yankeefeminista January 9th, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    Anyone rooting in KC-Balt game? What’s the spread?
    ————————-
    -Balt -3…o/u 40.5

    __
    Thanks!

  208. austinmac January 9th, 2011 at 1:09 pm

    MaineYankee,

    Yes, it is “only” January 9th. Is there a date upon which you will have concern? 2/9, 3/9, etc. I don’t think it will look much different then since I don’t think starters will do anything but become harder to acquire. Why wouldn’t they when the potential pool shrinks?

  209. BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 1:06 pm

    by the way billy eppler to my knowledge has no background in pitching.

    why is he all of a sudden some kind of genius pitching advisor ?

    i think he’s really overrated in his pitching judgement.

    i think this is another case of too few advisors sitting around the table without a diversity of ideas.
    +++++++++++++
    Agreed! On all points.

  210. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    lgy-

    has it crossed you mind that if i started using stats like FIP that i could be a real pain in the cerebellum?

    that alone may be the incentive i need to be a fangraphs junkie :)

  211. austinmac January 9th, 2011 at 1:11 pm

    LGY,

    I think the Yankees would be thrilled to get a pitcher that throws 190 innings with a 4.50 ERA. Do you think Mitre will be anywhere near those numbers? Obviously, he would not.

  212. LGY January 9th, 2011 at 1:12 pm

    Bill James has Lowe at a 3.87 ERA next year. CAIRO has him at 4.16.

  213. blake January 9th, 2011 at 1:14 pm

    190 innings and a 4 something Era could win a lot of games for the Yankees. I love player development as well but if Pettite retires then putting 2 rookies and AJ in the rotation could really rough up the bullpen by the all star break.

  214. Patrick January 9th, 2011 at 1:14 pm

    WCYF,

    As I posted, in this very thread no less, it says something about your intelligence if you took my Vick comments seriously

  215. LGY January 9th, 2011 at 1:16 pm

    blake,

    The Zambrano or Lowe question is tough.

    I think if you the trade went down right now I would just go with which team paid more of the salary and the lesser prospects. I think I would just go with the cheaper one so you could maintain enough payroll flexibility to pick up another expensive starter at midseason if wanted/needed. Maybe even the other guy!

  216. 86w183 January 9th, 2011 at 1:16 pm

    Mitre doesn’t cost $ 15 M like Derek Lowe either.

    I picked 4.50 based on his combined ERA of 4.34 the last two seasons and an assumption it would probably go up as he pitches at age 38 (in June).

    Move him to the AL East and 4.50 might be a best case scenario.

  217. BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 1:17 pm

    “At 33, Eppler has become increasingly visible around the Yankees. He is General Manager Brian Cashman’s most trusted adviser on potential player acquisitions, the way Mark Newman is on the farm system and Damon Oppenheimer is on amateur prospects.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03.....ppler.html
    ++++++++++++
    So those are the names Brian listens to. In the Lee trade, he would have been depending on Eppier as far a value trading, which may mean Eppier had a role in rating Montero. Pure specualtion on my part as my cousin Bo Knows pointed out.

  218. 86w183 January 9th, 2011 at 1:18 pm

    Still if I could Lowe for a non-prospect and Atlanta sends back about $ 5 M a year I’d probably do it. No way I’d give up high level talent OR pick up all of the deal.

  219. Bo knows January 9th, 2011 at 1:18 pm

    Okay we were both wrong on when Livesey was fired and rehired.

    http://www.usatoday.com/sports.....2405_x.htm
    Livesey rejoins Yankees following 13-year absence
    Posted 10/23/2008 5:48 PM | Comment | Recommend E-mail | Save | Print |

    NEW YORK (AP) — Bill Livesey was hired by the New York Yankees as a pro scout on Thursday, 13 years after he was fired as vice president for player development and scouting.
    Livesey, who oversaw the Yankees’ draft when they selected Derek Jeter with the sixth pick in 1992, was with the Yankees from 1977-95 as a minor league manager, area scout, national crosschecker and farm director.

    The baseball and soccer coach at St. Petersburg’s Eckerd College from 1972-77, he was hired as Tampa Bay’s director of player of personnel a week after he was fired by the Yankees.

    He became special assistant to the general manager for Toronto in November 2001, then was hired as special assistant to the GM of the New York Mets in December 2003.

  220. blake January 9th, 2011 at 1:19 pm

    LGY,

    agreed.

    If the Yankees could have CC and then 4 other guys in their rotation that threw 190+ innings with a 4-4.50 era then they’d win 100 games in 2011.

  221. BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 1:19 pm

    As 86 points out, a 4.5 in NL East doesn’t necessarily translate to that in AL East..IMO probably more like 5.50…

  222. West Coast Yankee Fan January 9th, 2011 at 1:21 pm

    Patrick January 9th, 2011 at 1:14 pm

    WCYF, As I posted, in this very thread no less, it says something about your intelligence if you took my Vick comments seriously.

    **************

    OK Patrick, whatever you say. I’m not intelligent and you are glad Vick killed dogs. We all have our opinions and our crosses to bear. I’m not in the mood to argue, there is a lot of sadness in the world today and baseball is a good distraction.

    Do you have an opinion on the questions as to how the Yankees will do? Would be interested in your opinion.

  223. Against All Odds January 9th, 2011 at 1:21 pm

    # BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 1:17 pm

    “At 33, Eppler has become increasingly visible around the Yankees. He is General Manager Brian Cashman’s most trusted adviser on potential player acquisitions, the way Mark Newman is on the farm system and Damon Oppenheimer is on amateur prospects.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03…..ppler.html
    ++++++++++++
    So those are the names Brian listens to. In the Lee trade, he would have been depending on Eppier as far a value trading, which may mean Eppier had a role in rating Montero. Pure specualtion on my part as my cousin Bo Knows pointed out.

    ——————————————————

    Sounds like it’s time for some new scouts lol

  224. blake January 9th, 2011 at 1:21 pm

    I wouldn’t send high level talent or pick up all of the salary for either of Lowe or Zambrano either but if they wanted to clear some of that money then Id be willing to listen in either case.

  225. LGY January 9th, 2011 at 1:23 pm

    “As 86 points out, a 4.5 in NL East doesn’t necessarily translate to that in AL East..IMO probably more like 5.50…”

    ———————

    But you have to start with the assumption that Lowe projects to have a 4.50 ERA next year, which I don’t believe is the case.

  226. Patrick January 9th, 2011 at 1:23 pm

    WCYF,

    No I’m not happy Vick killed dogs, it was a damn joke.

    I was talking about dogs that are serial killers and war dogs… how can you take that seriously?

    I think the Yankees will make the playoffs because they are the best team in the division.

  227. Rich in NJ January 9th, 2011 at 1:23 pm

    “So those are the names Brian listens to. In the Lee trade, he would have been depending on Eppier as far a value trading, which may mean Eppier had a role in rating Montero. Pure specualtion on my part as my cousin Bo Knows pointed out.”

    I think the win-now mindset often guides, if no trumps, pure baseball decisions. If not, then all them really need to be fired.

    If you want to trade Montero because of some perceived defect, then fine.

    But it’s not about talent as much as the age difference.

    The age disparity is just to great to make that trade, and that doesn’t even factor in Lee’s contractual status.

  228. austinmac January 9th, 2011 at 1:25 pm

    86W,

    Why do I care that Mitre is cheap? I would be cheap, but the team would suffer. The Yankees can and should be willing to pay good money for a quality starter. Money issues should not result in Mitre as a starter. He isn’t good enough to start regularly on very many, if any, teams. But,yes, he is cheaper.

  229. West Coast Yankee Fan January 9th, 2011 at 1:26 pm

    Patrick – OK. It didn’t appear to be a joke. Some people don’t find what he did to those poor animals as joke material. I guess you have a different sense of humor. Thanks for clarifying.

  230. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 1:26 pm

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03.....gewanted=2

    in case no one has posted this, it’s a good article on eppler.

    he sounds like a good guy to have in the organization.

    i’m just questioning if he has pitching credentials.

    did he pitch in college? any pro pitching experience?

    if anyone knows his actual baseball background a link to it would be great.

  231. Against All Odds January 9th, 2011 at 1:33 pm

    # Patrick January 9th, 2011 at 1:23 pm

    WCYF,

    No I’m not happy Vick killed dogs, it was a damn joke.

    I was talking about dogs that are serial killers and war dogs… how can you take that seriously?

    I think the Yankees will make the playoffs because they are the best team in the division.

    ——————————————————————-

    Is the last statement another joke

  232. Patrick January 9th, 2011 at 1:40 pm

    Is the last statement another joke

    Nope

  233. Against All Odds January 9th, 2011 at 1:46 pm

    I’m not going to anoint Boston the 27 Yankees like some moron in Boston did but IMO there is a gap between the Red Sox and Yankees. I the Bo Sox are the best team in this division. Now of course the games aren’t played on paper so it doesn’t guarantee that they will be the last team standing

  234. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 1:48 pm

    BoJo January 9th, 2011 at 12:59 pm
    Or perhaps

    “Your talent evaluators have made calls that many hard-core fans find questionable–such as making Montero available for a 2 month rental, claiming Nunez was a deal breaker, and categorizing Joba as only a relief pitcher with no chance to reach his possible potential as a starter. These are judgement calls that will significantly impact your performance as a GM. Are you comfortable with depending that much on judgment calls from the same people or do you have safeguards and counter perspectives in place that you use to make sure you are getting the best possible advice? What do you do to test their advice?”

    ////

    Those are great questions. I bet there’s no counter-talent scout arm within. Not after he was undermined all those yrs by the so-called Tampa faction.They need to rethink the position of ML talent scout if this guy is making those calls.

  235. J. Alfred Prufrock January 9th, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 1:26 pm
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03…..gewanted=2

    in case no one has posted this, it’s a good article on eppler.

    he sounds like a good guy to have in the organization.

    ///

    Someone posted this some threads ago.the guy should be dumped.he’s apparently behind the Joba to the Bullpen movement,which Cashman resisted at first but capitulated on.& it’s said he recommended they deal Montero for Lee.

  236. West Coast Yankee Fan January 9th, 2011 at 2:00 pm

    Do you have a link that works? Thanks.

  237. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    bo knows-

    thanks for that link.

    i met livesey around 2006 up in tampa at some sort of independent ball tryout they had up in tampa . i had brought up little lefty 20 year old pitcher named ron scott who threw in the low nineties i had been catching in sarasota to see if there was anything for him, and livesey came over and asked me about him.

    i didn’t know who he was until someone came over and told me who he was. he was a very unassuming guy and i didn’t think much of it at the time. the kid did sign with one of the independent teams.

    ahh, the beauty of baseball ref:
    here’s the kid:
    http://www.baseball-reference......ott-003ron

  238. 86w183 January 9th, 2011 at 2:15 pm

    Austinmac —

    The question that the team would have to ask is whether or not Lowe is worth the improvement above other in house candidates considering the cost. Not sure the Braves are trying to move him, but to me he’s not worth $ 15 M…. get it down to $ 8-10 I’m more interested.

    LGY —

    I think 4.50 this year is a reasonable expectation for Lowe. Yes, he was better than that last year (4.00) but age (38 in June) is becoming a factor and over the last two years his ERA is 4.33 as I pointed out earlier.

    While I would love for Pettite to come back, he’s 39 in June and is more likely to have an ERA in the 4.00 – 4.30 range than the 3.28 he ended up with last year.

  239. randy l. January 9th, 2011 at 2:22 pm

    “Not after he was undermined all those yrs by the so-called Tampa faction.”

    someone should write a book about the tampa faction and it’s role in yankee baseball.

    without knowing much myself i’d be really interested to read it.

    my vague understanding of how it worked was george believed in having creative differences between warring factions in an organization so that lots of ideas were put on the table and that results would come from the winners of these battles when they all came together.

    i had some connections with these old school guys( tony cloninger, clete boyer and some personal contact( billy conners ) but ironically when i was actually doing baseball( bullpen catching” i didn’t wear my yankee fan hat and paid little attention to how the yankees did things back then.

    i do know that neil allen was stole from the blue jays organization hired by the tampa faction. i also know that cashman got rid of him because of his connection to the tampa faction.

    considering that allen is now the rays triple a manager does indeed back up the idea that there is a yankee coaching and scouting drain to the rays.

    it makes sense personnel from the two organizations would mix because both organizations operate out of tampa and they all know each other from spring training in tampa and minor league teams that operate out of there. playing golf, and other activities they would also cross paths.

    it’s kind of ironic eiland and allen both rising star triple a coaches( allen produced wang and eland produced hughes ) both are in positions with the rays now.
    i’m going to have to stop telling neil allen stories now that he’s back at triple a.
    too close to the majors.

    not that anyone reads this blog besides us :)

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