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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Finding a value for Andruw Jones

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 12, 2011 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

After numerous reports, it seems that the Yankees are at least discussing the idea of signing Andruw Jones to fill their fourth outfielder opening. Jon Heyman has reported that the two sides are talking, but they disagree on money. Based on the current free agent market, what might Jones be worth?

The facts: Jones is about to turn 34 years old. He signed a $500,000 deal with significant incentives last season, He’s a one-time superstar center fielder turned role-playing corner outfielder. Offensively, he’s largely an all-or-nothing power hitter who fits the Yankees need for a right-handed bat who can hit lefties.
Career: .256/.338/.488
Last season:
.230/.341/.486
vs. LHP in 2010:
.256/.373/.558

It’s pretty much impossible to find a perfect comparison, but to some extent, these players might help create a market for Jones.

Right-handed platoon outfielder

Matt Diaz
Pirates
2 years, $4.25 million

One of the first outfielders to come off the board this offseason, Diaz is one year younger than Jones and has hit lefties to a .335/.373/.533 slash line in his career. He was close to an everyday player just two years ago and put up a .313/.390/.488 line that season. He’s coming off a .250/.302/.438 season, but he maintained a .273/.318/.512 split against lefties.

Similar hitter, different position

Edwin Encarnacion
Blue Jays
1 year, $2.5 million

Still in his late 20s, Encarnacion is a third baseman, not an outfielder, but he hit .244/.305/.482 last season, which is awfully close to Jones’ slash line. Even Encarnacion’s splits — .234/.367/.547 against lefties last year — are similar to Jones. Age is what really makes this a difficult comparison, but the offensive numbers are pretty close.

Similar player, opposite side of the plate

Eric Hinske
Braves
1 year, $1.45 million (with club option for 2012)

Hasn’t played much infield the past few years. At this point he’s primarily a corner outfielder, and he hit .256/.338/.456 last season. He and Jones are less than four months apart in age. They have remarkably similar career batting averages and on-base percentages, with Jones showing a higher slugging percentage. In his career, Hinske has hit .261/.346/.454 against right-handers. He’s rarely used against lefties.

Former everyday player turned role player

Pat Burrell
Giants
1 year, $1 million

A strange comparison because Burrell has suddenly shown reverse splits the past two seasons. That said, Burrell’s slash line last year was .252/.348/.469, and his career slash line is .254/.362/.475. Both are very similar to Jones. I feel confident saying Jones is a better defensive player, but Burrell signed with a National League team, so obviously he’s not considered a DH.

Fourth outfielders

Melky Cabrera, 1 year, $1.25 million
Austin Kearns, 1 year, $1.3 million
Rick Ankiel, 1 year, $1.5 million plus significant incentives
Just a glimpse at the basic fourth outfielder market. None of these has Jones’ power. I guess Ankiel is the most similar hitter to Jones, but he bats from the opposite side of the plate and is able to play a solid center field. Kearns is the most similar defensive player but without nearly the same power from the right side. Cabrera took a significant pay cut after making $3.1 million in 2010. Its worth noting that Tony Gwynn Jr. was given a contract that guarantees $675,000. Clearly Jones is going to make more than last season. It’s a question of how much more.

Comments

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248 Responses to “Finding a value for Andruw Jones”

  1. Cashman needs to go January 12th, 2011 at 12:13 pm

    WOW..

    Melky Cabrera, Austin Freaking Kearns and Rick Ankiel got more $$ than Pat Burrell? What happened to that guy….

  2. blake January 12th, 2011 at 12:13 pm

    How far apart can they be? Jones can’t be asking for that much can he?

  3. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 12:16 pm

    Did he hit any of his incentives last season?

  4. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 12:17 pm

    Cashman needs to go January 12th, 2011 at 12:13 pm
    WOW..

    Melky Cabrera, Austin Freaking Kearns and Rick Ankiel got more $$ than Pat Burrell? What happened to that guy….

    ———————-

    Burrell’s older and not as good defensively. Plus he signed first.

  5. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 12:17 pm

    I say one year 1 mil is plenty for Jones. Give him an option at 2 mil with a 500k buyout if you must.

  6. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 12:18 pm

    By the way – I think Kyle Farnsworth ended any thoughts Grant Balfour may have had about re-signing in Tampa.

    Watch – Farnsy will probably go on to have a Benoit type season down there and then get a 3 year 21 mil deal next year.

  7. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 12:19 pm

    Chad-

    You forgot Johnny Damon again!

  8. yanks61 January 12th, 2011 at 12:20 pm

    yanks61 January 12th, 2011 at 12:12 pm
    BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 11:02 am
    As an example of what I consider great potential at The Captain’s Log, check out this article about Ryan Duren. I think it was by far the best piece I read about him among all the articles published,

    http://captnsblog.wordpress.co…..l-problem

    Very good article BoJo. Thanks for sharing.

    I saw Duren pitch numerous times back in the 50?s. For a couple of years he was simply unbelievable. One game at Comiskey he was knocked down himself. He was absolutely livid. When he took the mound in the bottom half of the inning, still steaming, he proceded to strike out something like six of the next seven batters he faced.

    Staying on the subject of great closers, Goose has got a very good point, though he’s probably beaten the point to death. Just looking at some of the great old time Yankee relievers, guys like Johnny Murphy, Joe Page, and later Sparky Lyle and Goose often pitched multiple innings – sometimes three or four an outing.

    So while Mo is clearly the greatest closer of this latest era (going back perhaps to the 80?s?), in fairness, it’s seems hard to say what he might have done had he had to do the same – or vice-versa for that matter. Just my two cents.

  9. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2011 at 12:21 pm

    The most that I’d go with Jones is 1 year at $1 mil plus incentives.

  10. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 12:21 pm

    Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 12:19 pm
    Chad-

    You forgot Johnny Damon again!

    ————

    That’s because Johnny hasn’t signed a contract. Deep breath Erica – deeeeep breath :-)

  11. Erin January 12th, 2011 at 12:22 pm

    This is so cute :)

    RiverAveBlues Awww babies! RT @si_vault: Derek Jeter and Mariana Rivera celebrate the Yankees 1996 title http://bit.ly/eiVPuG

  12. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 12:26 pm

    Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 12:19 pm
    Chad-

    You forgot Johnny Damon again
    —————————————————————————————

    I thought he was in the old folks home.

  13. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    Isn’t supply and demand supposed to dictate pricing?

    The other guys got more money because they were perceived to be more in demand. Now most roles are filled for Jones, and he is left in a buyer’s market. I’d offer him $500K with incentives to $1.5M, but nothing more. I’d also only offer him a minor league contract with a ST invite.

    Let him find a better offer if he can.

  14. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    Off topic -

    But do people really pay upwards of $70 per month per phone for smart phones with data plans????

  15. heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 12:31 pm

    But do people really pay upwards of $70 per month per phone for smart phones with data plans????
    _________________________

    The sad saps, yes.

    The intelligent ones who actually need data? They have their jobs pay for their blackberry…

  16. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 12:31 pm

    Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    Off topic -

    But do people really pay upwards of $70 per month per phone for smart phones with data plans????
    +++++++++++++++
    They’re called “smart phones,” but you don’t hear people referring to the owners as “smart people.”

    :-)

  17. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 12:31 pm

    Hahahaha- I totally misread the point of this post.

    So much for my working from home multi-tasking!

    (However, I challenge Chad to find a way to include Johnny Damon in all future posts)

  18. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 12:32 pm

    Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 12:27 pm
    Off topic -

    But do people really pay upwards of $70 per month per phone for smart phones with data plans????

    **************

    I have the Droid X and my phone bill went up $40/mth with the data plan

  19. m1kew January 12th, 2011 at 12:32 pm

    “Jones is about to turn 34 years old. He signed a $500,000 deal with significant incentives last season” … What did actually he earn from that contract including the incentives?

  20. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 12:34 pm

    Andruw Jones had a 1.5 WAR last year, which means he was worth somewhere in the vicinity of $6M. In 2009 he had a .8 WAR, value around $3.2M. In 2008 he had negative WAR. In 2007, back to 1.6 WAR, $6M.

    To me that means if the Yanks got him he’d be likely to be worth somewhere between $3M and $6M.

    If I were Cashman I’d sign him for $4.5M or less.

  21. raymagnetic January 12th, 2011 at 12:35 pm

    “Off topic -

    But do people really pay upwards of $70 per month per phone for smart phones with data plans????”

    Yep. Especially people with IPhones and Blackberry.

    “They’re called “smart phones,” but you don’t hear people referring to the owners as “smart people.”

    Yep. A lot of dumb people have smart phones which they don’t know how to use :???:

  22. Joe from Long Island January 12th, 2011 at 12:36 pm

    yanks61 – that’s quite a story about Ryne Duren. Another link to the past gone….

    On the matter of Goose’s opinion about the comparison between closers today and the greats of yesteryear – I think it’s not quite right to compare them, it’s almost like apples and oranges. Nowadays, they’re closers – only the 8th. Goose, Sutter, Fingers, Lyle,….. were more like complete relief pitchers, capable of multiple innings, at almost any point in the game.

    So, I think one can say that Mariano is the greatest closer in history – it’s a different position than that played by Goose and the other greats. And, more of them should be in the Hall. JMO.

  23. bruceb January 12th, 2011 at 12:38 pm

    I have a Droid too. My monthly bill for two phones almost doubled. A lot of features and apps I love but the YouTube feature is next to useless as it keeps breaking up and try terminating a phone call. It takes 5 mins to find the keypad. Plus it’s way too bulky and the sliding keyboard is pointless.

  24. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 12:39 pm

    raymagnetic January 12th, 2011 at 12:35 pm

    Yep. A lot of dumb people have smart phones which they don’t know how to use

    *****************

    Offense taken. I am very bright and have no clue how to work most features on my smart phone. I really don’t have time to sit there and learn.

    I was very proud though that in a moment of necessity, I was able to set my phone for turn by turn navigation for a meeting.

  25. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 12:41 pm

    Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 12:34 pm
    Andruw Jones had a 1.5 WAR last year, which means he was worth somewhere in the vicinity of $6M. In 2009 he had a .8 WAR, value around $3.2M. In 2008 he had negative WAR. In 2007, back to 1.6 WAR, $6M.

    To me that means if the Yanks got him he’d be likely to be worth somewhere between $3M and $6M.

    If I were Cashman I’d sign him for $4.5M or less.

    ———————

    You would give him a $4 million raise?

  26. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 12:42 pm

    I ask because my daughter has been bugging me for an iPhone and Verizon is now coming out with the iPhone. (I also have wanted one and have been tempted lately to get a Droid.)

    My husband has a Blackberry which his company pays for.

    So, we have a family plan with Verizon for our personal cell phones which includes my husband, me, my daughter and my M-I-L. Only 2 of us would want the data plan, but you can’t do that. If you have a family plan you have to pay for every person. Heck, my M-I-L and my husband still have the original cell phones they got a few years ago – basic, basic, basic. (My M-I-L uses about 10 minutes a month on the cell and NEVER texts; my husband texts occasionally if my daughter sends him one first.) Even if we break up the plan, it’s ridiculous. And Smart phones require a data plan of some sort and I would want unlimited, because who wants an unknown cost (especially with my daughter).

    It’s crazy!!!

  27. Bronx Jeers January 12th, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    The thing is Andruw hit 19 dingers last season. He probably thinks he’s worth more than $1MM.

    And he might be right but he’s in a buyers market.

    Coincidentally, I’m predicting a buyers market for Yankee tix next season.

  28. ac1 January 12th, 2011 at 12:44 pm

    Andruw Jones had a 1.5 WAR last year, which means he was worth somewhere in the vicinity of $6M. In 2009 he had a .8 WAR, value around $3.2M. In 2008 he had negative WAR. In 2007, back to 1.6 WAR, $6M.

    To me that means if the Yanks got him he’d be likely to be worth somewhere between $3M and $6M.

    If I were Cashman I’d sign him for $4.5M or less.

    ______

    Glad you aren’t running things. $4.5 Million? Proof that some of these stats should be ignored.

  29. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 12:45 pm

    Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 12:42 pm
    I ask because my daughter has been bugging me for an iPhone and Verizon is now coming out with the iPhone. (I also have wanted one and have been tempted lately to get a Droid.)

    My husband has a Blackberry which his company pays for.

    *****************

    I have a Blackberry for work too that my company pays for. That was the specific reason I didn’t want one for personal. Having two Blackberries is very obnoxious.

    I am kind of wishing I didn’t upgrade in November and I waited for the iPhone on Verizon. But I do like my Doid X a lot. The big screen was actually one of the things that attracted me to it

  30. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 12:47 pm

    I have an iPod touch, but I got the basic one, so unless there is a free wifi in the area, it’s useless for some of the things I’d like to do. It still works as a music source and a “rolodex,” and I can play previously uploaded games (like Scrabble). But I can’t look at e-mail, check in on Lohud or anything like that unless I’m in a wifi zone (like Starbucks).

  31. ac1 January 12th, 2011 at 12:48 pm

    i too have a work blackberry. But i have held out, waiting for the iphone to drop to verizon and now it has.

  32. upstate kate January 12th, 2011 at 12:48 pm

    we have 3 phones from verizon. My son is the only one w/ a data plan and it costs $10 extra a month. My son has unlimited text, I have a more moderate usage for texting and my husband refuses to text. I have found their call center to be very helpful determining what our usage is and what options cost the least.

  33. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 12:48 pm

    Repost

    YsGuy January 12th, 2011 at 12:33 pm

    wait, theres no way anybody is going to ‘blow away’ 601 saves. hoffman became a f/t closer in 93 his 4th year in the league. from that point on he averages about 60 innings per year, meaning he was basically a one-inning guy. (that average is actually a bit lower than mo’s who often topped 70 ip)
    rivera has been a closer since his 3rd year in the league and he will likely just get by the 601 total,and he is another guy who closed primarily in the ‘one inning save’ era.
    unless you see someone coming along and blowing rivera away in terms of being an effective closer, nobody is going to blow away either the 601 by hoffman or whatever number mo ends up with. in fact, id say its going to be a very very long time till either’s save record is bettered, IF EVER!
    BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 12:45 pm

    YsGuy–

    If a pitcher averages 45 saves per year, he’ll get to 600 in about 13 seasons. That means a kid like Neftali Feliz–who has 42 saves at age 22–could easily do it. It is not such a big deal if clubs are going to put great arms out there…At age 26, Soria has 132 saves, needs just 468..which he can make in 10 years if he averages 45 saves per year…

    It is not impossible at all.

  34. heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 12:49 pm

    I ask because my daughter has been bugging me for an iPhone and Verizon is now coming out with the iPhone. (I also have wanted one and have been tempted lately to get a Droid.)
    ___________

    Yea, overpaying verizon so your daughter can check facebook on the go is probably a lot like the Yankees overpaying for Andruw Jones.

  35. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 12:49 pm

    Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 12:47 pm
    I have an iPod touch, but I got the basic one, so unless there is a free wifi in the area, it’s useless for some of the things I’d like to do. It still works as a music source and a “rolodex,” and I can play previously uploaded games (like Scrabble). But I can’t look at e-mail, check in on Lohud or anything like that unless I’m in a wifi zone (like Starbucks).

    *************

    I have a really old iPod thats still ticking. I think I bought it in 2007. If/when it goes I plan on going for the ipod touch. But my concern with the iPod touch is that I have to buy an expensive one to hold all of my music.

  36. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 12:50 pm

    Erica -

    My nephew would be lost without his Droid (or so he tells me). My daughter’s friend has a Droid and back in September he was able to get me from one town to another in Westchester using the Droid (I guess the turn by turn you referred to).

    I sometimes have a difficult time with want/need. I’m pretty practical, but sometimes…. :)

  37. heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 12:52 pm

    If a pitcher averages 45 saves per year, he’ll get to 600 in about 13 seasons. That means a kid like Neftali Feliz–who has 42 saves at age 22–could easily do it. It is not such a big deal if clubs are going to put great arms out there…At age 26, Soria has 132 saves, needs just 468..which he can make in 10 years if he averages 45 saves per year…

    It is not impossible at all.
    ___________

    Wow – well while I agree it’s not impossible you kinda trivilized the accomplishment of “45 saves over the course of 10 years”…

  38. heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 12:52 pm

    or trivialized**

  39. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 12:53 pm

    Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 12:50 pm
    Erica -

    My nephew would be lost without his Droid (or so he tells me). My daughter’s friend has a Droid and back in September he was able to get me from one town to another in Westchester using the Droid (I guess the turn by turn you referred to).

    I sometimes have a difficult time with want/need. I’m pretty practical, but sometimes….

    ***************

    I don’t have a problem with printing mapquest directions. But my concern tonight was I was going to a house in a totally unfamiliar area and the roads were really dark and windy and there was ice and snow around. I didn’t trust myself to try to read the street signs and get where I needed to go safely under those conditions. Thankfully, the turn by turn worked beautifully and the lady in the phone told me exactly where to turn

  40. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 12:53 pm

    Erica -

    When I bought my daughter her Mac Pro, I was able to get the largest capacity iPod touch at a discount. I don’t even come close to using the capacity, and I was able to load my whole music library on it and not have to make any decisions!!! (She was still a student and they were running a “special”) We could have gotten the 8GB one for free.

  41. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 12:53 pm

    *that night. Not tonight

  42. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 12:54 pm

    The two sides of the Andruw Jones negotiation:

    Boras–”Jones has a 1.5 WAR and 19 homers last year and is worth about $6M.”

    Cashman–”I’m only looking for a 4th OFer, for which I am willing to pay $500K to $1MM. Take it or leave it.”

    Boras–”I think you’re bluffing and we are going to hold out.”

    Cashamn–”Yeah, how did that work out for you last year with Damon?”

  43. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 12:55 pm

    Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 12:53 pm
    Erica -

    When I bought my daughter her Mac Pro, I was able to get the largest capacity iPod touch at a discount. I don’t even come close to using the capacity, and I was able to load my whole music library on it and not have to make any decisions!!! (She was still a student and they were running a “special”) We could have gotten the 8GB one for free.

    **************

    Bally’s was kind enough to give me $150 in Apple gift cards when I went on my Thanksgiving weekend trip. That should help offset the cost when the time comes.

  44. yanks61 January 12th, 2011 at 12:55 pm

    So, I think one can say that Mariano is the greatest closer in history – it’s a different position than that played by Goose and the other greats. And, more of them should be in the Hall. JMO

    Joe from Long Island – That’s a very good way of looking at it. Thanks for putting the issue in a way that makes perfect sense.

  45. ac1 January 12th, 2011 at 12:55 pm

    has anyone ever hit 45 saves a season for 10 straight seasons?

  46. YsGuy January 12th, 2011 at 12:55 pm

    anyone have any experience with metro pcs which offers $40 or $50 unlimieted plans? i cant use them at this point b/c i spend half my time out of thier coverage area, but im wondering because they say they are expanding to my area now

    fwiw, i have a prepaid $45 unlimited plan for my dumb phone but the phone is dying. i really like not having to sign a contract so ill stay with this unless something better comes along.

  47. Bronx Jeers January 12th, 2011 at 12:55 pm

    Yea, overpaying verizon so your daughter can check facebook on the go is probably a lot like the Yankees overpaying for Andruw Jones.

    —————————————————————————————————————–

    True but then again Verizon’s going to demand a 2-year contract. And they’ll get it. :wink:

  48. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 12:55 pm

    Erica -

    That’s a lifesaver of a feature!

    You’ll use it a lot (hopefully!!!)

  49. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 12:55 pm

    ac1 January 12th, 2011 at 12:44 pm
    Andruw Jones had a 1.5 WAR last year, which means he was worth somewhere in the vicinity of $6M. In 2009 he had a .8 WAR, value around $3.2M. In 2008 he had negative WAR. In 2007, back to 1.6 WAR, $6M.

    To me that means if the Yanks got him he’d be likely to be worth somewhere between $3M and $6M.

    If I were Cashman I’d sign him for $4.5M or less.

    ______

    Glad you aren’t running things. $4.5 Million? Proof that some of these stats should be ignored.

    —————

    Well said.

  50. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 12:57 pm

    BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 12:54 pm
    The two sides of the Andruw Jones negotiation:

    Boras–”Jones has a 1.5 WAR and 19 homers last year and is worth about $6M.”

    Cashman–”I’m only looking for a 4th OFer, for which I am willing to pay $500K to $1MM. Take it or leave it.”

    Boras–”I think you’re bluffing and we are going to hold out.”

    Cashamn–”Yeah, how did that work out for you last year with Damon?”

    ———————

    Pretty sure that both Boras and Cashman would crack up laughing if Boras went with WAR as the first line in his argument.

    If not, Cashman would respond with “WAR. What is it good for? Absolutely nothing” and then they would both crack up.

  51. randy l. January 12th, 2011 at 12:57 pm

    doreen-

    once you get an iphone you’ll wonder why you didn’t get one sooner .

    i have mine tied in to my business surveillance system so i can watch everything when i’m not there.

    if you are a mac person everything just syncs up.

    it’s great for watching yankee games in the summer too on mlb.com

    i’m sure android will get good as time goes on , but the iphone is the one everyone is chasing.

  52. YsGuy January 12th, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    there are few uncertainties in life but i think we can count andrew jones getting an offer for $4.5M out of cashman among them.

  53. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    ac1 January 12th, 2011 at 12:55 pm

    has anyone ever hit 45 saves a season for 10 straight seasons?
    ++++++++++++
    Small sample size…

    These guys only throw 70 innings per year now, and should be healthy for a long time. So, as the younger flame-throwers are put in these roles on decent teams, we should start to see that more frequently.

  54. heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    True but then again Verizon?s going to demand a 2-year contract. And they?ll get it.
    ___________

    LOL nice

  55. YsGuy January 12th, 2011 at 12:59 pm

    sorry *there are few certainties*

  56. Triple Short of a Cycle January 12th, 2011 at 12:59 pm

    Company closed 2nd time in the last 2 weeks. I love snow

  57. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 12:59 pm

    CHIP–

    :-)

    I like that!

  58. randy l. January 12th, 2011 at 1:00 pm

    ” i really like not having to sign a contract so ill stay with this unless something better comes along.”

    ysguy-

    it’s uncanny today how you keep saying things that remind me of cashman this winter :)

  59. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 1:01 pm

    It’s great how parallel conversations can somehow come together to yield a great point…in this case, Cashman should offer Jones a 2 year Verizon contract on a Droid.

  60. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 1:01 pm

    Triple Short of a Cycle January 12th, 2011 at 12:59 pm
    Company closed 2nd time in the last 2 weeks. I love snow

    **************

    Nice.
    My billable hours are too valuable. I am required to work from home

  61. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 1:02 pm

    YsGuy January 12th, 2011 at 12:58 pm
    there are few uncertainties in life but i think we can count andrew jones getting an offer for $4.5M out of cashman among them.

    ———————

    Not unless Boras slips something in Cashman’s Shirley Temple.

  62. heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 1:03 pm

    These guys only throw 70 innings per year now, and should be healthy for a long time. So, as the younger flame-throwers are put in these roles on decent teams, we should start to see that more frequently.
    __________

    Again, it’s as if you’re trivializing Mo’s accomplishments. Those young flame-throwers don’t usually get put into a closer’s role unless they fail as a starter. Then once they become a closer, who’s been as consistent as Mo? Or Hoffman? Virtually no one. It’s a bit premature to simply assume thats going to change.

    But I still agree, the record shouldn’t be viewed as “impossible” to break. But it won’t be broken as soon as I think you think

  63. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 1:03 pm

    BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 12:59 pm
    CHIP–

    I like that!

    —————–

    Yeah I’ve pretty much decided that will be my “go to” when someone uses WAR as part of their argument.

  64. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 1:04 pm

    So we have Edgar Martinez’s hall of fame candidacy and Andruw Jones deserving $4.5 mil as evidence as to why you don’t trust silly stats.

  65. Triple Short of a Cycle January 12th, 2011 at 1:04 pm

    Erica in NY,

    Well at least you didn’t have to drive to work. Plus you get to work in your jammies

  66. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 1:05 pm

    Oh, yeah. I have no illusions about what my daughter would be doing with an iPhone. It will be a mobile Facebook and music player. So far I’ve convinced her it’s not necessary. And today I was at least able to tell her how much it would cost HER if she got one, because we won’t pay for it. She cooled a little. But, “all her friends” are getting either a Droid or an iPhone. She likes the touch screen. Problem is, if you get a smart phone you MUST get some kind of data package.

    Her entire life she’s been the last to get everything. And she’s had to earn them herself. So I feel bad always saying no.

  67. upstate kate January 12th, 2011 at 1:05 pm

    BoJo
    :)

  68. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 1:06 pm

    heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 1:03 pm
    These guys only throw 70 innings per year now, and should be healthy for a long time. So, as the younger flame-throwers are put in these roles on decent teams, we should start to see that more frequently.
    __________

    Again, it’s as if you’re trivializing Mo’s accomplishments. Those young flame-throwers don’t usually get put into a closer’s role unless they fail as a starter. Then once they become a closer, who’s been as consistent as Mo? Or Hoffman? Virtually no one. It’s a bit premature to simply assume thats going to change.

    But I still agree, the record shouldn’t be viewed as “impossible” to break. But it won’t be broken as soon as I think you think

    **************

    Closers other than Mo, don’t seem to have the same consistancy for long.

    Lets examine the Papelbon example, he was touted for years as being the next Mo and was not good last year.

    Philly may have a great rotation, but every Philly fan hold’s their breath when Lidge enters a game. But for a while he was considered great

  69. YsGuy January 12th, 2011 at 1:07 pm

    sad to see how far you’ve fallen randy. you used to bring intelligent baseball thought, now you wallow in the depths with the likes of ‘cashman must go’ and yankeesnmore. for your sake, i hope the yankees win this year, because you having to lay off cashman last year with championship in hand made you a much more interesting commenter.

  70. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 1:07 pm

    heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 1:03 pm

    These guys only throw 70 innings per year now, and should be healthy for a long time. So, as the younger flame-throwers are put in these roles on decent teams, we should start to see that more frequently.
    __________

    Again, it’s as if you’re trivializing Mo’s accomplishments. Those young flame-throwers don’t usually get put into a closer’s role unless they fail as a starter. Then once they become a closer, who’s been as consistent as Mo? Or Hoffman? Virtually no one. It’s a bit premature to simply assume thats going to change.

    But I still agree, the record shouldn’t be viewed as “impossible” to break. But it won’t be broken as soon as I think you think
    ++++++++++++
    I’m not sure your assumption is right anymore. Used to be so, but perhaps not anymore.

    Feliz and Soria are 2 great examples of clubs seeing the value of having a great arm in the closer role. Pitchers that throw hard but only have 2 great pitches can be put there while very young…look at Mets almost putting Jenrry Mejia there at age 20…

  71. randy l. January 12th, 2011 at 1:08 pm

    http://englishrussia.com/index.....zen-ships/

    i found a photo that reminded me of the yankee situation this winter

  72. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 1:09 pm

    I agree that no record is impossible to break. Except maybe Joe D’s consecutive game hitting streak. And Pete Rose’s hit record.

    But that saves number is pretty high. You have to be very good for very long with a lot of save opportunities to even get in the vicinity. It seems to me that there are more guys who are good for a few years (5? 7 as a stretch?) and then burn out.

  73. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 1:06 pm

    Closers other than Mo, don’t seem to have the same consistancy for long.
    +++++++++++++++
    Again, too small a sample size.

    The role of closer has been changing even in the last few years as Texas, KC, and Mets are showing. These pitchers will only have to throw 60-70- innings per year, and can have long careers.

    Whether 50% or 80% or 20% of them show the consistency over time is (IMO) yet to be determined. The role is too new to know.

  74. randy l. January 12th, 2011 at 1:11 pm

    “sad to see how far you’ve fallen randy. you used to bring intelligent baseball thought, now you wallow in the depths with the likes of ‘cashman must go’ and yankeesnmore”

    i’m just amusing myself while waiting for cashman to get his butt in gear and do something about his pitching staff. yu may have noticed a bit of a holding pattern.

    i do understand why your sense of humor is a little off.

    if i liked cashman ,i’d be in a bad mood too :)

  75. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 1:12 pm

    Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 1:09 pm
    I agree that no record is impossible to break. Except maybe Joe D’s consecutive game hitting streak. And Pete Rose’s hit record.

    ***************

    I think Cy Young’s 511 Wins are very much safe in the record books too

  76. YsGuy January 12th, 2011 at 1:14 pm

    in what world are 50% or 80% of closers going to show the consitency of mo?

  77. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 1:14 pm

    randy

    if i liked cashman ,i’d be in a bad mood too

    ———————————————————–

    So what is your excuse?

  78. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 1:12 pm
    Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 1:09 pm
    I agree that no record is impossible to break. Except maybe Joe D’s consecutive game hitting streak. And Pete Rose’s hit record.

    ***************

    I think Cy Young’s 511 Wins are very much safe in the record books too

    ********

    Yup!

  79. Rich in NJ January 12th, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    Damon or Manny or bust.

  80. heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    I?m not sure your assumption is right anymore. Used to be so, but perhaps not anymore.

    Feliz and Soria are 2 great examples of clubs seeing the value of having a great arm in the closer role. Pitchers that throw hard but only have 2 great pitches can be put there while very young?look at Mets almost putting Jenrry Mejia there at age 20?
    _____________

    True. And yet, Mejia “almost” was put there. And Feliz was being considered for the rotation a la Joba. Soria’s great, but even you mentioned he’s ~450 off the mark. It’s like saying someone’s going to break Ripken’s consecutive games streak after 700 games

  81. heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 1:17 pm

    Damon or Manny or bust.
    ___________

    But Manny hasn’t hit a home run in like a year….

  82. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 1:17 pm

    Damon or Manny or bust.

    ——————————————————–

    I choose bust.

  83. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 1:17 pm

    Rich in NJ January 12th, 2011 at 1:15 pm
    Damon or Manny or bust.

    *************

    Modification…..

    Damon or Bust!!!!!! :-)

  84. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 1:18 pm

    MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 1:17 pm

    I choose bust.

    **************

    HISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

    But have a great day :-)

  85. Against All Odds January 12th, 2011 at 1:18 pm

    # Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 1:05 pm

    Oh, yeah. I have no illusions about what my daughter would be doing with an iPhone. It will be a mobile Facebook and music player. So far I’ve convinced her it’s not necessary. And today I was at least able to tell her how much it would cost HER if she got one, because we won’t pay for it. She cooled a little. But, “all her friends” are getting either a Droid or an iPhone. She likes the touch screen. Problem is, if you get a smart phone you MUST get some kind of data package.

    Her entire life she’s been the last to get everything. And she’s had to earn them herself. So I feel bad always saying no.

    ————————————————————

    Don’t feel bad it’s just the way things are sometimes.

  86. Bronx Jeers January 12th, 2011 at 1:20 pm

    Krazy Kyle a Ray?

    Anybody hear this?

  87. Rich in NJ January 12th, 2011 at 1:20 pm

    “I choose bust.”

    Because?

  88. YsGuy January 12th, 2011 at 1:20 pm

    “Damon or Manny or bust.”

    - a little advance work on the old timers day invites?

  89. blake January 12th, 2011 at 1:21 pm

    I choose Damon…..Fangraphs has his value at 4.5 million last year so Id offer him at least a 3 year contract with Verizon.

  90. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 1:21 pm

    Erica

    How can I have a great day after being hissssssssssssssed at?

    I feel like I just got sent to the corner.

    Of course I have no first hand knowledge how that might be. :lol:

  91. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 1:22 pm

    YsGuy January 12th, 2011 at 1:14 pm

    in what world are 50% or 80% of closers going to show the consitency of mo?
    +++++++++++++++++++++++
    They don’t need to be as perfect as Mo for the numbers to work out. Let’s say they get into 65 games per year…and only save 70%of those games…no great shakes, right? But that still gives them 45 saves per year.

    My point about 50% or 80% or 20% is that we just do not know at this time what the future norm will be as far as consistency and success since the role is evolving to put relievers in shorter roles that are more defined to help them succeed. You rarely see managers bringing in closers in middle of innings or with games tied anymore. It is like they are being positioned for lay-ups as compared to prior generations.

  92. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 1:24 pm

    MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 1:21 pm
    Erica

    How can I have a great day after being hissssssssssssssed at?

    I feel like I just got sent to the corner.

    Of course I have no first hand knowledge how that might be.

    ****************

    I would have so much more sympathy for you except that we both knew you would be hissed at when you hit “submit” on that post :-)

  93. upstate kate January 12th, 2011 at 1:24 pm

    Johnny D- yes
    Manny- no

  94. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 1:25 pm

    Rich in NJ January 12th, 2011 at 1:20 pm
    “I choose bust.”

    Because?

    ——————————————————————

    They don’t fill a need.

    DH is all set and their days in the OF are past.

    Manny never was a good OF and Damon hasn’t been very good for at least the past 2 years.

  95. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 1:25 pm

    Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 1:24 pm

    MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 1:21 pm
    Erica

    How can I have a great day after being hissssssssssssssed at?

    I feel like I just got sent to the corner.

    Of course I have no first hand knowledge how that might be.

    ****************

    I would have so much more sympathy for you except that we both knew you would be hissed at when you hit “submit” on that post
    ++++++++++++++
    That is why I deleted it from my post…wasn’t going to touch it after considering the audience!

  96. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 1:26 pm

    Our old friend (and good luck charm?) Kate Hudson is pregnant!

    (No, its not A-Rods)

    http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20457004,00.html

  97. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 1:26 pm

    Also Rich, the player has to be willing to accept the role as 4th OFer…not someone who still wants a lot of ABs.

  98. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 1:27 pm

    Erica

    I don’t know what you’re talking about. :lol:

    It was a perfectly innocent response.

  99. TheStraw January 12th, 2011 at 1:27 pm

    Doreen-

    FYI, Verizon has a 4G (LTE) Droid coming out a week after the iphone. The iphone is only 3G. Might change your opinion, as the 4G speeds are supposed to be blazing. I am trying to make the same decision.

  100. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 1:27 pm

    BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 1:25 pm

    That is why I deleted it from my post…wasn’t going to touch it after considering the audience!

    **************

    Wise move

  101. heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 1:28 pm

    You rarely see managers bringing in closers in middle of innings or with games tied anymore. It is like they are being positioned for lay-ups as compared to prior generations.
    __________

    Gotta disagree with you again. The “save” itself is defined in a way to describe a situation that is the very opposite of a lay-up (i.e you don’t get saves for closing out with a 5-run lead).

    The situations closers are brought in for are a product of managerial decisions. Not that it’s the absolute rule, but generally managers aren’t going to waste their closer unless they have the lead.

  102. blake January 12th, 2011 at 1:28 pm

    Vlad>Damon>Jones>Thames. That’s probably how the money would go as well though…..and the first two probably wont accept the reduced role.

  103. TheStraw January 12th, 2011 at 1:28 pm

    I think Jones is a good fit for 4th outfielder, but no way should he get more than $2 million aav.

  104. YsGuy January 12th, 2011 at 1:29 pm

    i think most of that evolution happened before mo and hoffman became closers. they are both one inning guys basically who have pretty much closed thier entire careers. those are the two factors that put them past everyone else. the new guys coming along are going to be in that same boat unless they change the save requirement significantly.

  105. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 1:29 pm

    Erica

    I think you are confusing me with that :evil: GB7

  106. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 1:30 pm

    Mo averaged 67 games a year and 38 saves a year. If I’m reading the line 162-game average correctly. That’s 57%, no?

    And that’s Mo.

  107. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 1:31 pm

    For his own sake, I would like to see Damon sign on a team where he can get 3000 hits. Not sure which teams that will give him that chance anymore…probably needs to DH at this point…would be great if the park allows him to hit homers.

    Baltimore? Rays? Angels? Not sure where he lands, but that 3000 hits and HOF will make a big difference in his life after baseball.

  108. Rich in NJ January 12th, 2011 at 1:31 pm

    “They don’t fill a need.

    DH is all set and their days in the OF are past.

    Manny never was a good OF and Damon hasn’t been very good for at least the past 2 years.”

    Why look at defense in a vacuum when a player’s value is a function of offense/defense?

    Viewed in that context, both Damon and Manny offer more than Jones.

    And we don’t know if Posada will continue his offensive decline. So either give you protection if that happens.

  109. YsGuy January 12th, 2011 at 1:31 pm

    but…but…but…fangraphs said $4.5-$6M!

  110. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 1:31 pm

    MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 1:29 pm
    Erica

    I think you are confusing me with that GB7

    *****************

    You are right… you have surely never said anything that caused you to be HISSED at before :roll:

  111. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 1:32 pm

    The Straw -

    the iPhone4 is not 4G?

  112. YsGuy January 12th, 2011 at 1:32 pm

    whose declining more quickly, manny or posada?

  113. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 1:32 pm

    Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 1:30 pm
    Mo averaged 67 games a year and 38 saves a year. If I’m reading the line 162-game average correctly. That’s 57%, no?

    And that’s Mo.

    ****************

    Mo pitches that often in non-save opportunities?

    Because I can’t remember a year he ever had more than maybe 4 blown saves

  114. YsGuy January 12th, 2011 at 1:33 pm

    no the iphone 4 that verizon is going to sell next month is going to work in thier 3g network according to what i heard on npr yesteray

  115. TheStraw January 12th, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    Doreen-

    Nope. 3G only according to the guy at the Verizon Store I went to yesterday.

  116. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    Something tells me Damon will do okay for himself even if he doesn’t get 3,000 hits and the HOF. He’s a likeable, good-looking guy. He could do GEICO commercials, for instance. ;)

  117. LGY January 12th, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    Damon’s defensive deficiencies the past 2 years have been exaggerated

  118. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 1:35 pm

    heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 1:28 pm

    You rarely see managers bringing in closers in middle of innings or with games tied anymore. It is like they are being positioned for lay-ups as compared to prior generations.
    __________

    Gotta disagree with you again. The “save” itself is defined in a way to describe a situation that is the very opposite of a lay-up (i.e you don’t get saves for closing out with a 5-run lead).

    The situations closers are brought in for are a product of managerial decisions. Not that it’s the absolute rule, but generally managers aren’t going to waste their closer unless they have the lead.
    ++++++++++
    To reply, the new closers are generally brought in with a 1 to 3 run lead only, with bases empty, and face various parts of the line-up (as opposed to always coming in to face the heart of the order). Their appearances are geared to set them up for the save.

    If–in 70% of those 65 to 70 appearances they can make–they get the 3 outs, it is considered a success and they are on their way to a 45 save season.

    The role is evolving into making it easier to accumulate saves as a stat.

  119. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 1:36 pm

    TheStraw -

    Hmmm. Well, I’ve waited this long. LOL

    I can’t justify the cost yet for either one. My daughter keeps telling me if we get a Droid we can get a second Droid for free? I think she’s mistaken; I think we could get a second phone but not a Droid. But even with that, I had to explain that the phone is no good with the plan and the plan is where the bargain is NOT. :)

  120. Rich in NJ January 12th, 2011 at 1:36 pm

    “whose declining more quickly, manny or posada?”

    Based on last season, Posada, at least if you look at sample size.

    Manny had a 151 OPS+ with the Dodgers.

    Posada’s was 116.

    Plus, you aren’t paying Manny (or Damon) anything close to the $15m Posada will get.

  121. blake January 12th, 2011 at 1:37 pm

    LGY,

    yes they have. He’s not great but he’s not Marcus Thames either and he never could throw. He’d be fine on an every now and then basis in LF……and great insurance for injury and in the clubhouse.

  122. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 1:37 pm

    Rich

    Viewed in that context, both Damon and Manny offer more than Jones.

    —————————————————————————————–

    If you base it on the role they will play Jones will be a better value based on cost.

  123. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 1:38 pm

    Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    Something tells me Damon will do okay for himself even if he doesn’t get 3,000 hits and the HOF. He’s a likeable, good-looking guy. He could do GEICO commercials, for instance.
    ++++++++++++
    Probably true…but he has said he really wants to get the hits and HOF. I wish him well.

  124. TheStraw January 12th, 2011 at 1:39 pm

    Yeah, Verizon likes their $$$$$.

    For the record, I would rather have Damon than Jones–but I don’t see it happening.

  125. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 1:39 pm

    Erica -

    He’s average 57 games finished. So some of the games may have been extra innings where he wasn’t the last pitcher used; or some may have been no-save opportunity games. I don’t see a stat for blown saves. I’m looking.

  126. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 1:40 pm

    Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 1:32 pm

    Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 1:30 pm
    Mo averaged 67 games a year and 38 saves a year. If I’m reading the line 162-game average correctly. That’s 57%, no?

    And that’s Mo.

    ****************

    Mo pitches that often in non-save opportunities?

    Because I can’t remember a year he ever had more than maybe 4 blown saves
    ++++++++++
    Good questions…let’s see what Baseball-Ref has to say. I’ll check.

  127. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 1:41 pm

    BoJo -

    I hope he gets the opportunity, too.

    Just sayin’ he’s the type of guy who will always do okay.

  128. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 1:42 pm

    Doreen

    I don’t see a stat for blown saves. I’m looking.
    —————————————————————————–

    Look for a pitcure of Papelbon.

  129. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 1:44 pm

    http://www.baseball-reference......r&t=p

    In his career, Mo has been used a lot in situations that new closers are not facing…

    112 games where he was brought in with team behind, 101 games where margin was greater than 4 runs ahead, 100 games with a 4 run lead…etc.

    Thus, Mo’s conversion rate of saves to appearances is going to be lower than what the new breed of closers may reach

  130. Rich in NJ January 12th, 2011 at 1:44 pm

    “If you base it on the role they will play Jones will be a better value based on cost.”

    But roles often change over the course of the season, and Jones just doesn’t offer has much flexibility. Plus, I don’t think you can count on him.

  131. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 1:45 pm

    LGY January 12th, 2011 at 1:34 pm
    Damon’s defensive deficiencies the past 2 years have been exaggerated

    ————————

    Only by those who watch him play.

  132. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 1:45 pm

    edit-picture

  133. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 1:45 pm

    Those numbers are out of 978 games for total career.

  134. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 1:46 pm

    Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 1:39 pm
    Erica -

    He’s average 57 games finished. So some of the games may have been extra innings where he wasn’t the last pitcher used; or some may have been no-save opportunity games. I don’t see a stat for blown saves. I’m looking.

    *************

    Off the top of my head, he comes in with games tied a bunch of games per season. And I can also remember a bunch of games he came in just because he hadn’t had a save opportunity in a while and needed work.

    Then there is always the random “crucial” game, where the bridge guy gets into trouble and the manager called for Mo just because he didn’t want it to be come a save situation.

    But when you add those circumstances and a few blown saves/season, does that equal the remaining 40% of Mo’s games.

  135. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 1:46 pm

    blake January 12th, 2011 at 1:37 pm
    LGY,

    yes they have. He’s not great but he’s not Marcus Thames either and he never could throw. He’d be fine on an every now and then basis in LF……and great insurance for injury and in the clubhouse.

    ————————

    Problem with Damon isn’t his ability in the OF it’s the same problem you’re going to run into with Manny or Vlad or Thome – these guys want to play and they want to play regularly. That’s not going to happen in New York.

  136. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 1:48 pm

    So, Mo was brought in to a non-save situation in 313 out of 978 games, or 32%…thus his 57% save rate is going to be much lower than a new closer brought in to games that he can close up to 95% of time. Mo might have had 85% to 89% save rate if used this way.

  137. heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 1:48 pm

    To reply, the new closers are generally brought in with a 1 to 3 run lead only, with bases empty, and face various parts of the line-up (as opposed to always coming in to face the heart of the order). Their appearances are geared to set them up for the save.

    If?in 70% of those 65 to 70 appearances they can make?they get the 3 outs, it is considered a success and they are on their way to a 45 save season.

    The role is evolving into making it easier to accumulate saves as a stat.
    ______________

    Without attacking your comment, I really don’t know what you’re getting at. 1-3 run lead is part of the very definition of a save. Bases empty? It’s not like managers were waiting til the bases were loaded before. Position in the lineup is largely uncontrollable – if it’s the 9th inning and your team is on top, the closer is coming in regardless.

    I mean you pretty much described a stanadard save situation. Theres no ‘evolving’ occuring in that statement.

    Again, I don’t want that to come off as a personal attack. The comment just seems like a statement of the obvious

  138. raymagnetic January 12th, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    “Offense taken. I am very bright and have no clue how to work most features on my smart phone. I really don’t have time to sit there and learn.

    I was very proud though that in a moment of necessity, I was able to set my phone for turn by turn navigation for a meeting.”

    No need to take offense as you were able to figure out how to use the phone on your own. The folks I’m referring to can’t figure out how to use it even if you give them several tutorials.

  139. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 1:51 pm

    Rich

    You like Manny alot more than I do.

    He’s a clubhouse cancer and Cashman has made it a point to stop bringing that type of player in.

    Damons skills were eroding the last 2 years the Yankees had him and that usually doesn’t improve.

  140. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 1:51 pm

    raymagnetic January 12th, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    No need to take offense as you were able to figure out how to use the phone on your own. The folks I’m referring to can’t figure out how to use it even if you give them several tutorials.

    ************

    Gotcha

    (btw- I wouldn’t have lost sleep over it. Its cool)

  141. Rich in NJ January 12th, 2011 at 1:51 pm

    “Problem with Damon isn’t his ability in the OF it’s the same problem you’re going to run into with Manny or Vlad or Thome – these guys want to play and they want to play regularly. That’s not going to happen in New York.”

    Jones had 328 AB last season. Is he going to be happy with 100?

    Damon, otoh, will probably play well enough to win more PT, especially with the way he can hook the ball into the short RF stands.

  142. LGY January 12th, 2011 at 1:51 pm

    Only by those who watch him play.

    *****

    Huh?

  143. blake January 12th, 2011 at 1:52 pm

    Chip,

    I wouldn’t call Damon a good LFer but I wouldn’t call him awful either which is how he’s portrayed. He’s still better than some guys roaming the outfield in the big leauges and if he could throw at all he would probably be close to average.

  144. LGY January 12th, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    Why are the Rangers, the team already with a DH, the ones tied to Thome now if these guys are looking for such regular playing time and that playing time is out there?

  145. Rich in NJ January 12th, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    MY

    “You like Manny alot more than I do.

    He’s a clubhouse cancer and Cashman has made it a point to stop bringing that type of player in.

    Damons skills were eroding the last 2 years the Yankees had him and that usually doesn’t improve.”

    Manny would not be a cancer with A-Rod and Jeter around.

    That’s not true. Damon offensively in 2009 as he has ever been (118 OPS+) and last season’s underperformance was almost certainly the result of playing his home games at Comerica.

    NYS is tailor made for him.

  146. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    Johnny Damon was still much better than Marcus Thames in the outfield

  147. blake January 12th, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    Everyone knows Damon ‘s skills are eroding…..if they weren’t then he would likely still be playing CF every day. That doesn’t mean he still can’t have value.

  148. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 1:55 pm

    heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 1:48 pm
    +++++++++
    I think it is obvious too.

    My point is that the role has significantly changed to where managers are using their closers in a more contained role…that being ahead 1 to 3 runs for 1 inning of work. As pointed out in the Mo discussion above, this trend has changed even over Mo’s career.

    This gets to the point that relief pitchers of the future are going to have a great opportunity to put up big save numbers because they will be pampered to only appear in save situations.

    All back to my original point that Hoffman’s record and Mo’s eventual record will fall by the wayside in the future (IMO) as the closer role evolves.

  149. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 1:57 pm

    Heyman–

    The evolving part was that Mo has been used in non-save situations about 32% of the time in his career…that is changing IMO.

  150. LGY January 12th, 2011 at 1:57 pm

    Are the Rangers not aware of the rule that you can’t carry a strict DH on your bench?

  151. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 1:58 pm

    LGY January 12th, 2011 at 1:53 pm
    Why are the Rangers, the team already with a DH, the ones tied to Thome now if these guys are looking for such regular playing time and that playing time is out there?

    ———————–

    Because the combo of Mitch Moreland and Chris Davis at 1b is far from a sure thing. Odds are that Michael Young will get the majority of playing time at 1b which would leave the DH spot open for Thome.

  152. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2011 at 1:59 pm

    Doreen, here’s a partial list of blown saves. They were only traacked since 1988.

    Blown Saves did not become official stat until 1998, BUT Blown Saves have been tracked since 1988. I have gone back to the late 1960′s early 1970′s and found this:

    Most Career Blown Saves:

    1. Rich Gossage ——- 112
    2. Rollie Fingers ——– 109
    3. Jeff Reardon ———- 106
    4. Lee Smith ————- 103
    5. John Franco ———- 101
    5. Bruce Sutter ——— 101
    7. Roberto Herandez — 90
    8. Sparky Lyle ———— 86
    9. Gene Garber ———– 82
    10. Kent Tekulve ———- 81

    Single Season Record is 14 by the following pitchers:

    1. Rollie Fingers 1976
    2. Bruce Sutter 1978
    3. Bob Stanley 1983
    4. Ron Davis 1984

    The following had 13 Blown Saves in a single season:

    5. John Hiller 1976
    6. Rich Gossage 1983
    7. Jeff Reardon 1986
    8. Dan Plesac 1987
    9. Dave Righetti 1987

  153. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 1:59 pm

    LGY–Young will play 1B to give Thome ABs…I think it is a really smart pick up by Rangers…

  154. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 2:00 pm

    If Jones had a 1.5 WAR last year, he was worth approximately $6M last year. The White Sox got a good deal.

    If you think Jones is likely to provide a 1.0+ WAR in 2011, then he’s worth $4M+. Do you have to pay $4.0M+? No, not if he isn’t getting offers in that range. That’s why I said $4.5M OR LESS. But if he is, I’d go up to $4.5M.

    Effort the reading comprehension, people.

  155. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 2:01 pm

    Erica -

    Mo has been in 656 Save situations and gotten 559 saves in his career. He has appeared in 312 non-save situations. He has 74 wins, 55 Losses, 290 no decisions.

  156. LGY January 12th, 2011 at 2:02 pm

    But I thought Thome could get guaranteed time elsewhere?

    Are you saying he now just has to bank of Moreland not playing well?

    Why would Thome do this if there are so many chances for guaranteed time out there?

  157. Rich in NJ January 12th, 2011 at 2:02 pm

    Seeing Sparky Lyle and Gossage’s names reminds me of Nettles’ famous quote about Lyle when the Yankees signed Gossage:

    “He went from Cy Young to sayonara.”

  158. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:02 pm

    LGY January 12th, 2011 at 1:57 pm
    Are the Rangers not aware of the rule that you can’t carry a strict DH on your bench?

    ——————

    As I said – the Rangers have a spot open for debate (1b). If Moreland and/or Davis don’t have good springs, chances are that Young will end up there. If that’s the case then Thome would be able to DH.

    At the same time I would also argue that just because another team does something I think is dumb doesn’t mean the Yankees should do it too. For example – the Rays just signed Kyle Farnsworth – that doesn’t mean I think the Yankees signing Kyle Farnsworth would have been a good idea.

  159. Rich in NJ January 12th, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    “Because the combo of Mitch Moreland and Chris Davis at 1b is far from a sure thing. Odds are that Michael Young will get the majority of playing time at 1b which would leave the DH spot open for Thome.”

    Similarly, Posada at DH is not a sure thing.

  160. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 2:00 pm
    If Jones had a 1.5 WAR last year, he was worth approximately $6M last year. The White Sox got a good deal.

    If you think Jones is likely to provide a 1.0+ WAR in 2011, then he’s worth $4M+. Do you have to pay $4.0M+? No, not if he isn’t getting offers in that range. That’s why I said $4.5M OR LESS. But if he is, I’d go up to $4.5M.

    Effort the reading comprehension, people.

    ——————-

    We all understood what you said and chose to mock it as asinine anyway.

  161. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    Rich

    There were respected guys on the RS and that didn’t stop Manny from being a problem.

    I’ve watched him enough for the RS that I want no part of him on the Yankees.

    As far as Damon, the need isn’t there for either a DH or an OF with defensive liabilities.

  162. Cashman needs to go January 12th, 2011 at 2:04 pm

    now you wallow in the depths with the likes of ‘cashman must go’ and yankeesnmore.

    **********************

    Its cashman NEEDS to go, and like old brian himself i’ll choose to sit on my hands and do nothing in responding…..

  163. LGY January 12th, 2011 at 2:04 pm

    Moreland looked like a good player to me last year.

    I am not sure why we would assume he won’t play well.

  164. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 2:05 pm

    Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 1:53 pm
    Johnny Damon was still much better than Marcus Thames in the outfield

    ————————————————————————–

    That isn’t very high praise. :lol:

  165. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 2:05 pm

    I think it comes out to MO having about an 85% save rate when he was brought into a save situation.

  166. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 2:05 pm

    “We all understood what you said and chose to mock it as asinine anyway.”

    Here’s a stat I like. Comments to value ratio.

    Chip has to be the LoHud leader.

  167. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:05 pm

    Rich in NJ January 12th, 2011 at 2:03 pm
    “Because the combo of Mitch Moreland and Chris Davis at 1b is far from a sure thing. Odds are that Michael Young will get the majority of playing time at 1b which would leave the DH spot open for Thome.”

    Similarly, Posada at DH is not a sure thing.

    ———————

    Sure he is.

    Moreland and Davis make a combined what – 800k – if the Rangers want to they can easily bench and/or send a guy to AAA. Posada makes $13 mil – he’s playing every day and the signing of Russ Martin means he’s playing at DH.

  168. Rich in NJ January 12th, 2011 at 2:06 pm

    “There were respected guys on the RS and that didn’t stop Manny from being a problem.”

    Don’t diss my man Jeter, MY. ;)

  169. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 2:07 pm

    BTW–I will grant one fallacy in my argument…a young closer going for career saves record must be with a a team that has 65 or so save situations per year for my argument to work…if the offense is too good, they will have too many leads over 3 runs…so the player has to be in the right situation for them to make a run at 600 saves…and that has to be the case for the majority of the time that player is playing.

    On the other hand, a young player like Feliz can still save 600 if he pitches until 42 as he will only have to average 28 saves per year for 20 years.

    Just an example why I think the record will be passed somewhat often.

  170. heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 2:07 pm

    The evolving part was that Mo has been used in non-save situations about 32% of the time in his career?that is changing IMO.
    ____

    Oh, ok i gotcha. I agree in that sense. I still don’t believe that will increase the number of saves earned since it doesn’t necessarily increase save opportunities.

    It’s clear we don’t see eye to eye on this one 100%. But like I said, I too think the record eventually falls. I just don’t think it will be within 10-20 years. And if the save as a stat continues to evolve in the direction you describe, it will diminish to the point of losing some value. Imagine we kept record of LOOGY stats (i.e record each time a LOOGY successfully gets a lefty out). Even if we did get to that point, it would only highlight the accomplishments of Mo/Hoffman

  171. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:07 pm

    LGY January 12th, 2011 at 2:04 pm
    Moreland looked like a good player to me last year.

    I am not sure why we would assume he won’t play well.

    —————–

    Again – I don’t particularly think Texas signing Thome (which they haven’t done, they’re only rumored to have interest in him) is a good move.

    That said – there’s a greater opportunity for Thome to see significant playing time in Texas than there is in New York.

  172. Rich in NJ January 12th, 2011 at 2:08 pm

    “Sure he is.”

    Chip, he’s 39 years old (will turn 40 in August). He’s coming off of a season of serial injuries. His salary doesn’t guarantee production.

  173. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 2:08 pm

    Thanks, GB7, for that list.

    :)

  174. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:08 pm

    Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 2:05 pm
    “We all understood what you said and chose to mock it as asinine anyway.”

    Here’s a stat I like. Comments to value ratio.

    Chip has to be the LoHud leader.

    ————————–

    I can only hope to follow the lead you have set.

  175. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 2:09 pm

    “I can only hope to follow the lead you have set.”

    Chip, you aren’t witty. I don’t even believe you figured out the insult.

  176. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:10 pm

    Rich in NJ January 12th, 2011 at 2:08 pm
    “Sure he is.”

    Chip, he’s 39 years old (will turn 40 in August). He’s coming off of a season of serial injuries. His salary doesn’t guarantee production.
    —————–

    Rich – the injuries were the result of the position he played:

    Broken foot as a result of a Cuddyer foul tip
    Concussion as a result of another foul ball

    He’s not going to put his body through the same stress as a DH. My guess – he plays about 130 – 140 games next year. All but 5 or 10 at DH.

  177. YankFanCA January 12th, 2011 at 2:10 pm

    Unless Jones can morph into a strong starting pitcher, this isn’t too exciting.

  178. LGY January 12th, 2011 at 2:11 pm

    I am reading now from a Rangers beat writer that the Twins are still the favorites to land Thome.

    Did Minny not get the message as well that you can’t have a DH on your bench?

    What if Thomes agent doing negotiating with teams that already have a DH instead of all those teams out there that will offer guaranteed time that Chip told me about?

  179. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:11 pm

    Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 2:09 pm
    “I can only hope to follow the lead you have set.”

    Chip, you aren’t witty. I don’t even believe you figured out the insult.

    ————————

    Ouch…stop…you’re hurting my feelings.

  180. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 2:11 pm

    Erica

    In save situations he has an 18-22 record. In non-save situations, he has 53-30 record, but that includes one year where he started. He was 3-3 as a starter in 10 games.

  181. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 2:12 pm

    Heyman–

    I personally think the stat “saves” has already evolved to being useless.

  182. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 2:12 pm

    “Ouch…stop…you’re hurting my feelings.”

    I know I am. It’s fun.

  183. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2011 at 2:12 pm

    My pleasure, Doreen. Hoffman has about 20-25 more blown save, I believe. One thing to remember is that Rivera really doesn’t get as many save opporunities as other closers because the Yanks score so many more runs than other teams.

  184. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 2:15 pm

    blake

    I didn’t say Damon didn’t have value. Just don’t think he helps the Yankees as much as others at this time.

    Cashman isn’t going to sign him just to satisfy a certain poster who I won’t name because it might get me in trouble.

  185. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:15 pm

    LGY January 12th, 2011 at 2:11 pm
    I am reading now from a Rangers beat writer that the Twins are still the favorites to land Thome.

    Did Minny not get the message as well that you can’t have a DH on your bench?

    What if Thomes agent doing negotiating with teams that already have a DH instead of all those teams out there that will offer guaranteed time that Chip told me about?

    ——————

    :-)

    I’ll say it again. Just because some other team does something stupid doesn’t mean the Yankees should do it too.

    Tigers signed Joaquin Benoit to a 3 year deal coming off a career year – stupid move. Should the Yankees have done that…NOOOOOO

    Nationals tremendously overpaid for Jayson Werth – should the Yankees have matched that offer? NOOOOOO

    Texas Rangers invested 6 bloody years in a guy who has previously put up big numbers in walk years and then faded after getting a fat contract; not a good move – should the Yankees have done it? NOOOO

    New York Mets freaked out and gave Ollie Perez a 3 year deal. Should the Yankees rush out there and give some shlub a 3 year contract just because the winter hasn’t gone their way? NO.

  186. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 2:15 pm

    Rich-

    I agree with you that Posada is no sure thing at DH. The number of concussions he has had in his career worry me a bit.

    Having said that, I believe the Yankees have an outstanding fallback option in Montero, so I am not concerned about signing another DH type. If Posada gets injured, they can bring up Montero for that role and leave Cervelli as back up catcher. If Montero is back up, he can DH and Posada can be back up catcher.

  187. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:16 pm

    Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 2:12 pm
    “Ouch…stop…you’re hurting my feelings.”

    I know I am. It’s fun.

    ——————

    Well as long as you’re having fun.

  188. LGY January 12th, 2011 at 2:18 pm

    Chip

    Why did Jorge Posada play less games in 2009 than 2010?

    Catcher related injuries in 2009?

  189. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:18 pm

    BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 2:15 pm
    Rich-

    I agree with you that Posada is no sure thing at DH. The number of concussions he has had in his career worry me a bit.

    Having said that, I believe the Yankees have an outstanding fallback option in Montero, so I am not concerned about signing another DH type. If Posada gets injured, they can bring up Montero for that role and leave Cervelli as back up catcher. If Montero is back up, he can DH and Posada can be back up catcher.

    ——————

    And BoJo it’s like I said, getting out from behind the plate should result in far fewer injuries for Posada.

  190. heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 2:18 pm

    I personally think the stat ?saves? has already evolved to being useless.
    _________

    Lol, the funny thing is I really don’t disagree with you there, and I still don’t think that makes Mo any less great. It’s an imperfect fact that will be used to support the HOF candidacy of Mo and maybe Hoffman.

    The difference is that Mo’s greatness is so evident without the stat. If saves were never created, i’d still tell you Mo is a legend

  191. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 2:18 pm

    “Well as long as you’re having fun.”

    Thanks. I’ll have to continue this 24/7 for a few months before my comment/value ratio begins to equal yours.

    I don’t think I have the staying power you do though.

  192. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:21 pm

    LGY January 12th, 2011 at 2:18 pm
    Chip

    Why did Jorge Posada play less games in 2009 than 2010?

    Catcher related injuries in 2009?

    ———————

    Posada actually caught more games in 09 (96) than he did last year (80).

    The difference between 09 and 10 is that in 09 the Yankees didn’t have the option of DHing him like they did last year because of Hideki Matsui.

  193. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:22 pm

    Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 2:18 pm
    “Well as long as you’re having fun.”

    Thanks. I’ll have to continue this 24/7 for a few months before my comment/value ratio begins to equal yours.

    I don’t think I have the staying power you do though.

    ————-

    You’ll forgive me if I just ignore you for the most part then? Something tells me you’ve had enough practice playing with…er I mean by yourself that you will muddle through.

  194. 108 stitches January 12th, 2011 at 2:24 pm

    Andruw Jones got old ahead of his time. At 34, he should have 2-3 decent full time years left but he won’t.
    The only Boras client worth discussion is Rafael Soriano but Cashman must believe the 31st pick is a blue chipper. Boras will continue to overvalue Damon who won’t break ranks with his agent and accept a 1-year deal.

  195. LGY January 12th, 2011 at 2:24 pm

    Chip

    Ok, but Jorge still only started 106 games in 2009. Only 106!

    Why did he miss 56 games?

  196. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 2:24 pm

    “”You’ll forgive me if I just ignore you for the most part then? Something tells me you’ve had enough practice playing with…er I mean by yourself that you will muddle through.”

    Classy.

    So please, follow through on your promise?

  197. randy l. January 12th, 2011 at 2:26 pm

    “.We all understood what you said and chose to mock it as asinine anyway.”

    chip-

    gee , you now how to make friends .

    …and speak for yourself by the way.

    more people read WYH’s post than will ever read yours.

  198. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 2:27 pm

    Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:18 pm
    DHing doesn’t take back the concussions.

    heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 2:18 pm
    We TOTALLY agree. Mo’s case for HOF can be made in many ways…without that stat.

  199. Cashman needs to go January 12th, 2011 at 2:28 pm

    LGY January 12th, 2011 at 2:24 pm
    Chip

    Ok, but Jorge still only started 106 games in 2009. Only 106!

    Why did he miss 56 games?

    ***********

    Wasn’t he on the DL with a pulled hamstring (which he got running the bases btw) for about a month…and i believe Mr AJ Burnett preferred Jose Molina over posada as his personal catcher …

  200. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:28 pm

    LGY January 12th, 2011 at 2:24 pm
    Chip

    Ok, but Jorge still only started 106 games in 2009. Only 106!

    Why did he miss 56 games?

    ——————————–

    Broken finger (from a foul ball) and a hamstring injury (sliding) as well as general age and rest.

    So yes LGY – Jorge Posada has suffered a non-catching injury. One. In the last two years. In early May.

  201. LGY January 12th, 2011 at 2:28 pm

    I’m still trying to figure out why only teams who already have a DH are talking to Thome.

    Are these teams with guaranteed PT hiding?

  202. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:29 pm

    BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 2:27 pm
    Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:18 pm
    DHing doesn’t take back the concussions.

    heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 2:18 pm
    We TOTALLY agree. Mo’s case for HOF can be made in many ways…without that stat.

    ——————

    Yeah but it’s less likely he’s going to take a foul ball off the coconut if he’s not squatting behind home.

  203. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:30 pm

    LGY January 12th, 2011 at 2:28 pm
    I’m still trying to figure out why only teams who already have a DH are talking to Thome.

    Are these teams with guaranteed PT hiding?

    —————————

    You’re entitled to think it’s a good idea. I don’t. I don’t know why converting me to your way of thinking on this is such a big deal. :-)

  204. LGY January 12th, 2011 at 2:32 pm

    Chip

    I’m just trying to figure out if you are lying to me.

    You said all these teams are out there with guaranteed PT.

    As you know from WCYF last night he is devoted to the truth.

    He needs to know if your lying.

  205. Cashman needs to go January 12th, 2011 at 2:35 pm

    Yeah but it’s less likely he’s going to take a foul ball off the coconut if he’s not squatting behind home.

    ***********************

    With the reckless way Rob Thomson sends the slower runners home from 2nd on a single i wouldn’t be surprised if Posada gets a hamstring injury AND a concussion barreling into the catcher while trying to score from second on the same play… ;-)

  206. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:35 pm

    LGY January 12th, 2011 at 2:32 pm
    Chip

    I’m just trying to figure out if you are lying to me.

    You said all these teams are out there with guaranteed PT.

    As you know from WCYF last night he is devoted to the truth.

    He needs to know if your lying.

    ——————

    Nope I’m not lying.

    The teams are out there that could offer these guys contracts and playing time. I don’t know why a team would want to carry a DH on its bench but then again I don’t get regular updates from Jon Daniels or Bill Smith on what they’re thinking.

    Like I said, maybe Daniels isn’t sold on Moreland; maybe Morneau’s concussions scare Smith more than he’s letting on – dunno, haven’t got that nugget for ya.

    If it were me though I wouldn’t waste a bench spot on a pure DH – regardless of what the Twins and Rangers did.

  207. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 2:36 pm

    Chip–

    I’m talking about the cumulative effects of concussions over time…that is what worries me about Jorge. I hope I am wrong…but I have seen players fall off fast after a number of head injuries.

    Have to go shovel…Was waiting for snow or threat of snow to end.

    Later folks.

  208. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:37 pm

    Cashman needs to go January 12th, 2011 at 2:35 pm
    Yeah but it’s less likely he’s going to take a foul ball off the coconut if he’s not squatting behind home.

    ***********************

    With the reckless way Rob Thomson sends the slower runners home from 2nd on a single i wouldn’t be surprised if Posada gets a hamstring injury AND a concussion barreling into the catcher while trying to score from second on the same play…

    ————————–

    I’ve seen the way Posada “blocks” the plate. I’m really not worried about him crashing into a catcher.

  209. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:38 pm

    randy l. January 12th, 2011 at 2:26 pm
    “.We all understood what you said and chose to mock it as asinine anyway.”

    chip-

    gee , you now how to make friends .

    …and speak for yourself by the way.

    more people read WYH’s post than will ever read yours.

    ————————-

    Well Randy as I was far from the only person mocking his take on Andruw Jones I think I’m not just speaking for myself on that one.

    And as we post on the same blog I’m guessing the same number of people read our posts.

    But I think it’s cute the way you stick up for your little buddy…keep it up you rascal.

  210. LGY January 12th, 2011 at 2:39 pm

    Chip

    Maybe Thome should fire his agent?

  211. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 2:39 pm

    randy

    The more I read that book the more I think you and your Dad will enjoy it.

    It sounds like a guy in Farmington was a bit like George.

    Trying to assemble the best team at all costs.

  212. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 2:43 pm

    Andrew Jones had a 1.5 WAR last year. He was worth approximately $6M. No one has posted an intelligent comment disputing that.

    The question is what he should be paid in 2011. I said I’d bid up to $4.5M.

    I still would.

  213. YsGuy January 12th, 2011 at 2:43 pm

    i like the way posada ‘blocks’ the plate. hes a hitter not a catcher and we dont need him breaking a leg. it is the way of the future, too, the old blood and guts catcher who wasnt letting anybody get by him is a thing of the past. teams pay too much money for a good catcher now to have them miss 6 weeks for a broken collarbone to stop one run. similarly, the runners arent crashing the catchers anymore, they get paid too much, too. add to that the concussion damage awareness that has come into focus.

    i dont blame the catchers and runners for avoiding the big crash and i dont blame coaches who discourage it.

  214. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:46 pm

    LGY January 12th, 2011 at 2:39 pm
    Chip

    Maybe Thome should fire his agent?

    —————–

    Or maybe Thome really enjoyed playing in Minny and is willing to accept a reduced role there? That doesn’t mean he would be willing to accept the same role in, say, Boston or New York does it?

  215. LGY January 12th, 2011 at 2:48 pm

    Chip

    He enjoy his time in Texas too?

  216. heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 2:48 pm

    Andrew Jones had a 1.5 WAR last year. He was worth approximately $6M. No one has posted an intelligent comment disputing that.
    _________

    Marcus Thames had 0.9 WAR and was paid $900k. I don’t think I’d go 4.5M for Jones

  217. YsGuy January 12th, 2011 at 2:48 pm

    wave this post disputes that. nobody at his level is being paid anywhere near 1yr/$4.5M . fangraphs and WAR dont determine what a player gets, the market does and the guys listed here are all making half or less than what you suggest. there is no way in hell he’s getting $4.5M from the yankees.

  218. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 2:43 pm
    Andrew Jones had a 1.5 WAR last year. He was worth approximately $6M. No one has posted an intelligent comment disputing that.

    The question is what he should be paid in 2011. I said I’d bid up to $4.5M.

    I still would.

    ———————-

    Good for you. Would you like a cookie?

  219. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    LGY January 12th, 2011 at 2:48 pm
    Chip

    He enjoy his time in Texas too?

    —————-

    When he signs in Texas we can have that conversation, fair enough?

  220. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 2:52 pm

    “Good for you. Would you like a cookie?”

    You promised to ignore me. You can’t even keep a promise for 20 minutes? Or are you like my dog who can’t remember longer than 8 minutes?

  221. randy l. January 12th, 2011 at 2:53 pm

    “But I think it’s cute the way you stick up for your little buddy…keep it up you rascal.”

    chip-

    WHT and me have butted heads more often than not .

    disagreeing with people is one thing, but your know it all attitude doesn’t work here for long.

    people like me will start pulling up your dumb stuff from a year or so ago and you’ll disappear with your tail between your legs.

  222. YsGuy January 12th, 2011 at 2:53 pm

    WAR…..what is it good for? (absolutly nothin’)

  223. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 2:54 pm

    “wave this post disputes that. nobody at his level is being paid anywhere near 1yr/$4.5M .”

    I said what he was worth. I said I’d bid up to $4.5M if necessary, which means if someone was bidding as well. If I could get him for less I would of course.

  224. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 2:55 pm

    LGY – here you go…Evan Grant explains it perfectly in this article:

    http://www.dallasnews.com/shar.....48d84.html

    “On one hand, the Rangers interest in Thome is mystifying (they already have a DH). ”

    My argument exactly.

    “Thome’s ability to DH against right-handers might allow manager Ron Washington to move Young to a fielding position for the day and give an infielder a full day of rest, rather than just letting him off his defensive responsibilities.”

    The Yankees don’t have that option with Posada – the only person he can give a day of rest to is Russ Martin and by midseason the person giving Martin days off will likely be Jesus Montero.

    “Thome would provide a significant insurance policy in case Moreland struggles offensively as have the last two first basemen to have held the job. Moreland put himself in position to win the job in 2011 with a professional approach after his late July callup. He won the job with a half-dozen absolutely spectacular post-season at-bats. But those are mere glimpses. Remember when it appeared Chris Davis was going to challenge for a home run title?”

    As I said, the combo of Moreland and Davis are far less of a sure thing at 1b for Texas than Posada is at DH for the Yankees.

  225. blake January 12th, 2011 at 2:57 pm

    Wave,

    I don’t understand how a 1.5 WAR comes out to 6 million in value…..actually Im not sure I trust any of the tabulations that estimate a players dollar value….they always seem high. Maybe you can.shed some light on how they come to those numbers.

  226. randy l. January 12th, 2011 at 3:00 pm

    “The more I read that book the more I think you and your Dad will enjoy it.

    It sounds like a guy in Farmington was a bit like George.

    Trying to assemble the best team at all costs.”

    maine yankee-

    it’ll be fun hearing my father talk about it after he reads it. i’m going to read it myself. the book won a national prize too it seems. good stuff.

  227. blake January 12th, 2011 at 3:03 pm

    Against righties Id rather have Thome hitting than Posada…..especially at home in NYS. ..Jorge could either catch or rest on days Thome DHed…..

  228. LGY January 12th, 2011 at 3:04 pm

    Chip

    That still doesn’t make any sense to me if there are many teams out there that will offer guaranteed PT, like you have said many times.

    Texas may be better than NY, but it is still not guaranteed.

    Ya know, Thomes agent is probably just using the Rangers as leverage against these teams with guar PT. If you don’t show me the money he will sign with a team that can’t guarantee PT!! :mad:

  229. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 3:06 pm

    randy

    I think GB7 would like it too.

    The grassroots of baseball.

  230. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 3:07 pm

    blake January 12th, 2011 at 3:03 pm
    Against righties Id rather have Thome hitting than Posada…..especially at home in NYS. ..Jorge could either catch or rest on days Thome DHed…..

    ——————

    That’s a lot of catching time if you’re going to only DH Posada against LHP and I don’t believe the Yankees want him catching that much.

    If you want to go straight platoon – well then you’re going to have a very angry, very expensive, pinch hitter in Posada.

  231. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 3:07 pm

    blake-

    Generally speaking, most people studying these things have concluded 1 WAR is approximately $4-5M. You can argue 1 WAR is worth more than that to teams for which a marginal win is extremely important. I have seen arguments that 1 WAR is worth as much as $6M.

    The $/WAR is determined by comparing salary data to WAR data. I’ll try to find some links for you.

  232. blake January 12th, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    Chip,

    Im not saying it would be an easy situation to manage……I was just sayin…

  233. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 3:10 pm

    LGY January 12th, 2011 at 3:04 pm
    Chip

    That still doesn’t make any sense to me if there are many teams out there that will offer guaranteed PT, like you have said many times.

    Texas may be better than NY, but it is still not guaranteed.

    Ya know, Thomes agent is probably just using the Rangers as leverage against these teams with guar PT. If you don’t show me the money he will sign with a team that can’t guarantee PT!!
    —————————-

    We agree that there are teams out there that need a DH correct?

    Can I tell you why a team like Tampa for example isn’t going after Thome? No I cannot. Oh how I wish that I was indeed a major league baseball GM who could answer such a question for you – but alas I’m not. Nor can I tell you for certain why a team like Texas, who has a DH, would be interested in going that route either – but I’m in fairly good company there as the guy who covers the team for a living is slightly baffled by their interest as well.

    All I can tell you is that as little sense as I believe he would make for Texas – he still makes less sense for the Yankees.

  234. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 3:10 pm

    I thought WAR was what randy and jerkface did.

  235. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 3:10 pm

    WAR – what is it good for?

    Absolutely nothin’!

    Say it again man.

  236. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 3:11 pm

    MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 3:10 pm
    I thought WAR was what randy and jerkface did.

    —————-

    I thought it was a card game.

    I’ll say this for Wave – he’s making a very compelling argument as to why WAR is a silly statistic.

  237. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 3:12 pm

    blake January 12th, 2011 at 3:09 pm
    Chip,

    Im not saying it would be an easy situation to manage……I was just sayin…

    ————–

    To a large extent I agree. I’m not entirely opposed to the notion of outright releasing Jorge and signing Thome to be the everyday DH.

    I think at some point this season Posada is going to get grumpy about not catching and become a distraction.

  238. LGY January 12th, 2011 at 3:13 pm

    We agree that there are teams out there that need a DH correct?

    ****

    No.

    There is A team out there who definitely needs a DH.

    One team.

  239. DaSaint007 January 12th, 2011 at 3:14 pm

    Hello all. Just catching up on some posts.
    At this point, I don’t really care what they sign Jones for. Just sign him if he’s the preferred choice for 4th OF. I’m really not going to lose sleep over it.

  240. blake January 12th, 2011 at 3:14 pm

    Wave,

    Thanks…..you could argue that if Jones caused the Yankees to win one more game then it would be worth 4.5 million to them…….but the market really drives what players make and Im guessing that bench and role players are much more difficult to accurately put a dollar value on than a regular.

  241. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 3:15 pm

    blake-

    Here’s a link to a recent article from The New York Times supporting my position. It doesn’t go into all the math, but I believe the Times has crdibility:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11......html?_r=1

    The graf comes toward the end:

    “While the average win across the league costs $2.7 million, 2009 free agents received nearly $4.5 million per win added. Analysts like those at Fangraphs and Tom Tango at Inside the Book have found this amount consistent across talent levels. “

  242. blake January 12th, 2011 at 3:16 pm

    Chip,

    I wouldn’t go that far…..im hoping he takes to the DH role and I want him around to catch and mentor Martin and Montero when he comes up.

  243. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 3:16 pm

    Chip, you are breaking your promise again. But it was longer than 8 minutes so I understand.

  244. blake January 12th, 2011 at 3:20 pm

    Wave,

    Thanks for the link…..interesting.

  245. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 3:21 pm

    GB7 -

    I figure that is one reason why Mo has so many games he’s appeared in that weren’t save situations. It’s also one of the reasons he’s pitching at his age.

    Speaking of which,

    BoJo -

    How many guys do you really think are going to be pitching into their 40s? And do it well?

  246. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 3:31 pm

    There are too many conversations to keep track of who is talking to who. :lol:

  247. Don January 12th, 2011 at 6:44 pm

    Melky can buy a lot of peanuts with his $1.25 million.

  248. charlestonchew January 12th, 2011 at 8:03 pm

    Honestly, let’s just pay him 3-4 million and get it over with.

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