The LoHud Yankees Blog

A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


No. 42 and the chase for 601

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 12, 2011 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post


Last spring, Mariano Rivera arrived in Tampa as a 40-year-old closer in the final year of his contract. There were, of course, early questions of how much longer Rivera planned to keep playing.

“If I know, if I’m sure, 100 percent that I can do it, I will do it,” he said.

Yesterday, Trevor Hoffman answered the retirement question for the final time. The 43-year-old had 10 saves and a 5.89 ERA last season. He was no longer sure he could do it.

“I expect to pitch at a certain level,” Hoffman said. “And I had to be honest with myself that I wasn’t certain I could maintain that anymore.”

With Hoffman’s retirement, Rivera has become the active saves leader, 42 away from Hoffman’s all-time record of 601.* There’s no other active closer within shouting distance of that mark, so it will be a very long time before another closer approaches Hoffman’s total. Assuming he stays healthy and productive, Rivera’s new two-year contract gives him time to break that record and further establish a legacy that quite honestly needs no further accolades.

I’m sure Rivera will say time and again that he’s perfectly indifferent about the record, but it’s going to be a fun to watch him go after it. And when he decides he’s finished, Rivera will do exactly what Hoffman has done and walk away.

“One day that will happen, and that day I will go,” Rivera said. “This is not mine. I will go and the baseball will not stop because I don’t play any more.”

* Seriously, how perfect is it that Hoffman has retired when Rivera — the last No. 42 in baseball — is exactly 42 saves away from the record? Obviously it’s nothing but a coincidence, but it’s a pretty cool coincidence.

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178 Responses to “No. 42 and the chase for 601”

  1. MTU January 12th, 2011 at 9:05 am

    Chad-

    A “Numerologist” would probably say you had somethin’ there.

    ;)

  2. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 9:05 am

    I love cool coincidences!

    :)

  3. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 9:06 am

    Wait.

    Doesn’t that mean he needs 43 to break Hoffman’s record?

  4. Fran the original January 12th, 2011 at 9:12 am

    Now Cashman has to sign a reliable 8th inning guy to get the ball to Mariano so he can get those 42 saves.

  5. MTU January 12th, 2011 at 9:14 am

    Fran-

    I suggest we get the starting rotation straightened out first.

    ;)

  6. Erin January 12th, 2011 at 9:16 am

    Very cool coincidence :)

  7. disco stu January 12th, 2011 at 9:16 am

    Though it is uncertain whether or not the Yankees will have teams assembled in 2011 and 2012 that will win another WS, it is still pretty cool to know that over the next two years we will see two icons reach historic milestones …

    Jeter will be first Yankee to get to 3,000 hits this year and Mo will most likely become the all-time saves leader at some point next year.

    Pretty cool, indeed!!!

  8. MTU January 12th, 2011 at 9:19 am

    Erin-

    Some would say that there is no such thing as a coincidence.

    Only fate.

    :)

  9. J. Alfred Prufrock January 12th, 2011 at 9:21 am

    If nothing else goes right this season I’ll still take great pleasure in watching the greatest of all time for maybe the last time.something to savor.

    & thank you Gene Michael for talking George out of trading this human marvel.

  10. Fran the original January 12th, 2011 at 9:21 am

    I suggest we get the starting rotation straightened out first.
    ***************************************
    MTU,
    That’s up to you and your tour for Andy ;)

    Erin,
    Did you get a lot of snow? I know the storm came in from the mid west.

  11. NYY626 - Andy in 2011 January 12th, 2011 at 9:22 am

    Well said Disco Stu. Im going to try to tune out the inevitable complaining about our future HOFer’s declining skills and concentrate on all the fun things ahead for these guys.

  12. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 9:23 am

    Working from home today.

    Don’t worry. I have my most professional looking pjs on!

  13. J. Alfred Prufrock January 12th, 2011 at 9:24 am

    wait did Rivera sign a 2-yr deal?I forget.

  14. 108 stitches January 12th, 2011 at 9:26 am

    Fran the original January 12th, 2011 at 9:12 am
    Now Cashman has to sign a reliable 8th inning guy to get the ball to Mariano so he can get those 42 saves.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    And that’s the truth. Having a reliable EIG will go a long way toward Mariano passing Hoffman. Having a co-closer like Soriano virtually assures getting the 43 saves needed to be the all-time closer along with easing pressure on the rest of the bullpen.
    No guarantees that the 31st pick in the 2011 draft will be a plum. History shows that the later picks (see Jeter) are hungrier to get to the big leagues. Good scouting finds the best picks from the later rounds.

  15. ron January 12th, 2011 at 9:26 am

    2 year deal & he probably won’t break it til the 2nd year.

  16. J. Alfred Prufrock January 12th, 2011 at 9:29 am

    thanks,so I got two more yrs to look upon him.nothing like being there & hearing those first couple of nothes of Enter Sandman,even though Rivera is so not into the song,lol.

  17. mick January 12th, 2011 at 9:33 am

    I thought I heard Mitch Williams call Hoffman the greatest reliever ever.

    I think he hit a HR off him.

  18. pat January 12th, 2011 at 9:33 am

    “Don?t worry. I have my most professional looking pjs on!”

    Working from home has it’s privileges. Easier commute and lower dry cleaning bills!

  19. blake January 12th, 2011 at 9:34 am

    MTU,

    yes

    Maine,

    Good.times…..the best part was.wearing long sleeves in the summer so as to not get your forearms all scratched up.

  20. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2011 at 9:38 am

    MTU January 12th, 2011 at 9:19 am
    Erin-

    Some would say that there is no such thing as a coincidence.

    Only fate.

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    I only believe in coincidental fate.

  21. grouchonyy January 12th, 2011 at 9:39 am

    108 stitches:
    Jeter was a high first round pick, some 25 picks higher than the # 31 you would lose.

  22. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 9:39 am

    blake

    No long sleeves. to hot for that.

    We had an older guy working for us and he wore a sweatshirt. He said when it got wet from the sweat it kept him cool.

    I tried it once but couldn’t keep in on long enough to find out. :lol:

  23. MTU January 12th, 2011 at 9:40 am

    GB-

    Is that similar to the fate of a coincidence, or is that coincidental ?

    :)

  24. ac1 January 12th, 2011 at 9:40 am

    “Don?t worry. I have my most professional looking pjs on!”

    Working from home has it’s privileges. Easier commute and lower dry cleaning bills!

    __

    I work from home too, and last tuesday i forgot to put pants on until 3pm when i realized it was chilly in my office….

    :)

  25. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 9:40 am

    pat January 12th, 2011 at 9:33 am
    “Don?t worry. I have my most professional looking pjs on!”

    Working from home has it’s privileges. Easier commute and lower dry cleaning bills!

    **************

    Its really exactly like being in the office. I even spent the first 20 minutes drinking coffee and surfing the internet just like normal!!

  26. Erin January 12th, 2011 at 9:41 am

    Fran the original January 12th, 2011 at 9:21 am

    Erin,
    Did you get a lot of snow? I know the storm came in from the mid west.

    ****************************
    Fran-we were really really lucky compared to what the east coast is getting. I think we only got 3 or 4 inches (where I am anyway).

  27. ac1 January 12th, 2011 at 9:41 am

    No guarantees that the 31st pick in the 2011 draft will be a plum. History shows that the later picks (see Jeter) are hungrier to get to the big leagues. Good scouting finds the best picks from the later rounds.

    _____

    Wasn’t Jeter 6th in the first round?

  28. Erin January 12th, 2011 at 9:43 am

    GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2011 at 9:38 am

    I only believe in coincidental fate.

    *******************************

    :)

  29. MTU January 12th, 2011 at 9:43 am

    I don’t care what number Mo was drafted.

    He said he was picked by the Lord above.

    And I’m goin’ by that.

    ;)

  30. ac1 January 12th, 2011 at 9:45 am

    Is today the day Cashman drops his bomb and bring us the great Andruw Jones?

  31. randy l. January 12th, 2011 at 9:46 am

    “I work from home too, and last tuesday i forgot to put pants on until 3pm when i realized it was chilly in my office….”

    don’t feel bad, gb7 was standing in the check out line at the local piggy wiggly when he realized he forgot to put his pants on.

  32. MTU January 12th, 2011 at 9:47 am

    Randy-

    Thing was, he didn’t care.

    :)

  33. upstate kate January 12th, 2011 at 9:48 am

    ac1
    TMI!!!!

    I don’t work from home, but I work 4 10 hour days, so one less day to commute.

  34. Erica in NY January 12th, 2011 at 9:50 am

    ac1 January 12th, 2011 at 9:41 am
    No guarantees that the 31st pick in the 2011 draft will be a plum. History shows that the later picks (see Jeter) are hungrier to get to the big leagues. Good scouting finds the best picks from the later rounds.

    _____

    Wasn’t Jeter 6th in the first round?

    ***************

    Yes, correct. Everyone thought the Astros sould select him but they chose Phil Nevin instead.

  35. Fran the original January 12th, 2011 at 9:50 am

    randy,

    What is piggly wiggly? We don’t have anything by that name around here?

  36. MTU January 12th, 2011 at 9:51 am

    Randy-

    You better not answer that.

    :)

  37. randy l. January 12th, 2011 at 9:52 am

    fran-

    there are a lot of strange things down where gb7 lives.

    http://www.pigglywiggly.com/

  38. blake January 12th, 2011 at 9:53 am

    Maine,

    I wore the flannel…..id rather be hot than itch all day :)

  39. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 9:53 am

    randy

    I knew you was dating yourself using that term. :lol:

  40. Tom in N.J. January 12th, 2011 at 9:54 am

    Oddly enough, Rivera has 42 post season saves.

  41. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 9:54 am

    blake

    Don’t tell me you wore gloves too.

    You just have to toughen up.

  42. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2011 at 9:55 am

    MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 9:53 am
    randy

    I knew you was dating yourself using that term.

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    Randy has to date himself. No woman is crazy enough to date him.

  43. MTU January 12th, 2011 at 9:57 am

    GB-

    Don’t they use radiocarbon dating for guys like Randy ?

  44. randy l. January 12th, 2011 at 9:58 am

    …and he’s going to be 42 when he breaks the record

  45. MTU January 12th, 2011 at 9:58 am

    GB-

    I bet Randy could give a fig what you think of his dating habits.

  46. Fran the original January 12th, 2011 at 10:00 am

    randy,

    Thanks. I never would have guessed it was a supermarket :)

  47. YsGuy January 12th, 2011 at 10:01 am

    for this monring’s snow battle, i switched over from my usual layers of cotton and wool to some of that high tech (i almost typed new-fangled…) really thin, light workout wear, where its just a thin shirt, a thin jacket and a shell and i had to come in bc i was so hot!
    and i bought all three pieces for less then $50 total! (on sale at target!)
    why didnt anybody tell me….

  48. ericns1 January 12th, 2011 at 10:02 am

    Mo can pitch until he is 100!

  49. blake January 12th, 2011 at 10:03 am

    Maine,

    Haha…yea I was a wimp I.guess. I.wore gloves when I.worked at the saw mill as well….didn’t like splinters or sap all over me.

  50. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 10:05 am

    Fran

    Have you ever watched Driving Miss Daisy?

    They used that in the movie.

  51. West Coast Yankee Fan January 12th, 2011 at 10:07 am

    A. Jones – Oh how intoxicating diminished expectations can be.

  52. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2011 at 10:09 am

    MTU January 12th, 2011 at 9:58 am
    GB-

    I bet Randy could give a fig what you think of his dating habits.

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    Randy started his own business modeled on “Meals On Wheels”. Old folks drive around and are dates for other old folks. It’s called “Weezers For Geezers”.

  53. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 10:10 am

    blake January 12th, 2011 at 10:03 am
    Maine,

    Haha…yea I was a wimp I.guess. I.wore gloves when I.worked at the saw mill as well….didn’t like splinters or sap all over me.

    ——————————————————————————————–

    I knew what the answer was without asking. :lol:

    Don’t feel bad randy probably would too.

  54. randy l. January 12th, 2011 at 10:10 am

    “Thanks. I never would have guessed it was a supermarket ”

    upon further research:

    “Piggly Wiggly’s introduction of self-service grocery shopping truly revolutionized the grocery industry. In fact, many of the conveniences and services that American shoppers now enjoy were introduced first by Piggly Wiggly® “

  55. MTU January 12th, 2011 at 10:11 am

    GB-

    Does he a branch office in the Twin cities ?

    A highly efficient operation.

    :)

  56. MTU January 12th, 2011 at 10:12 am

    edit: “he have”. typo. sorry.

  57. Fran the original January 12th, 2011 at 10:13 am

    MaineYankee,

    I know what Driving Miss Daisy was about and who was in it, but never actually saw the movie.

  58. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2011 at 10:15 am

    MTU January 12th, 2011 at 10:11 am
    GB-

    Does he a branch office in the Twin cities ?

    A highly efficient operation.

    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    Not yet. He’s just getting started. You might stay that his operation is on life support.

  59. MTU January 12th, 2011 at 10:16 am

    GB-

    Him, or the buisness ?

    :)

  60. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 10:17 am

    Fran

    She talked about going to the piggly wiggly.

  61. MTU January 12th, 2011 at 10:18 am

    Maine-

    It’s a good thing this is a PG blog.

    ;)

  62. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 10:20 am

    Chad -

    Good stuff with the minor league notes. It’s nice to have something more interesting to talk about than the merits of signing oft-injured pitchers or reserve DHs.

  63. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 10:20 am

    Fran

    To show how much of a teacher my wife is, when I have her read something on here she always critiques my spelling. :lol:

    If you can’t tell English wasn’t my best subject.

    To this day I still don’t which one was. :lol:

  64. SAS January 12th, 2011 at 10:21 am

    Maine Yankee,

    You beat me to the Driving Miss Daisy movie. That’s where I put 2 + 2 together. Fran, the movie is wonderful!!!!

    ==============================================================

    How much snow did you all get or are still getting.

  65. tyanksfan36 January 12th, 2011 at 10:22 am

    It was 40 degrees out when I woke up this morning, luckily I don’t have school or work to go to. I don’t know how you even go outside in the snow. If I were to go out right now I’d have to wear my jacket, hat and gloves but probably flip flops.

  66. Fran the original January 12th, 2011 at 10:26 am

    MaineYankee,
    I know my worst subject was math,

    SAS,
    Snow ended here about 5AM. Ended up with about 9 inches.

  67. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 10:26 am

    BREAKING NEWS–

    Mets have signed Taylor Tankersley, thus shifting the power in NL East.

    We now return you to your regular morning chat.

  68. MTU January 12th, 2011 at 10:27 am

    Time for some Pupdemonium.

    BIAW.

  69. blake January 12th, 2011 at 10:27 am

    JimcallisBA Agreed, but why not use him to get something much more valuable? @mrconti: nunez much better overall utility option now than pena. #Yankees

    jimcallisBA Great question @MitchellNJ: Eduardo Nunez has no reg spot in Yank infield for at least another year. Why do Yanks not want to part with him?

    jimcallisBA Rather have Lee, go to WS. @Jbeck73: I agree with you. But if Yanks really believe he’s a regular SS, makes sense to keep as Jeter insurance

    jimcallisBA Agreed, but why not use him to get something much more valuable? @mrconti: nunez much better overall utility option

    -i think Mr. Callis is forgetting that Montero was also part of the equation. I do think the Yanks would trade Nunez now if something made sense.

  70. 4 NYY January 12th, 2011 at 10:28 am

    Mo: Great althlete, great closer. great man ! Case closed. HOF’er with extraordinary CLASS !

  71. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 10:28 am

    SAS

    It didn’t start here till around 7:00 this a.m.

    It’s really coming down hard now.

    I’m not sure what the predicted amount is.

  72. pat January 12th, 2011 at 10:29 am

    YES playing a Yankee Classics game. Andy’s pitching. I miss baseball. :sad:

  73. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 10:30 am

    Question…

    Most everyon ehere dumps on Jon Heymen for being a poor baseball analyst who only acts as a mouthpiece for Scott Boras and possibly a few other agents.

    I’ve also seen where many dump all over Ken Rosenthal.

    What is the consensus opinion on these guys: Buster Olney of ESPN? Rob Neyer? Jayson Stark? Keith Law?

    Specifics please–if possible.

  74. heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 10:35 am

    What is the consensus opinion on these guys: Buster Olney of ESPN? Rob Neyer? Jayson Stark? Keith Law?
    ________________

    Despite my tag, I don’t despise heyman or any of the above. The trend seems to be the more exposure/frequent reports, the lesser the opinion of the analyst.

    Its largely a product of the 24hour news cycle. People, including those on this blog, constantly refresh hot stove web pages and want the latest updates. Fact is, theres usually nothing new..so the ‘analysts’ are almost forced to stir the pot (I don’t want to say they fabricate stories bc that implies something else)

    If nothing else, their ‘rumors’ get us baseball fans thinking and thats entertainment. Unfortunately when the rumors fall thru, we’re just sort of let down

  75. randy l. January 12th, 2011 at 10:36 am

    “Randy started his own business modeled on “Meals On Wheels”. Old folks drive around and are dates for other old folks. It’s called “Weezers For Geezers”.”

    gb7-

    yeah, but so far, you’re the only one who listed his age as 100+

  76. austinmac January 12th, 2011 at 10:37 am

    Bojo,

    These reporters tell us what they hear from “sources”. There information is as reliable as the sources.

    I believe the general rule is the reporters may be accurate if they report what we want to hear and dirty, ignorant liars if they do not.

    What are we expecting from guys who wait outside closed doors for a hint from agent, Pulitzer Prize material?

  77. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 10:38 am

    BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 10:30 am
    Question…

    Most everyon ehere dumps on Jon Heymen for being a poor baseball analyst who only acts as a mouthpiece for Scott Boras and possibly a few other agents.

    I’ve also seen where many dump all over Ken Rosenthal.

    What is the consensus opinion on these guys: Buster Olney of ESPN? Rob Neyer? Jayson Stark? Keith Law?

    Specifics please–if possible.

    ——————–

    I have no problem with Neyer – he’s not an insider and doesn’t pretend to be. Usually he backs up his opinions with solid facts and reasoning.

    Stark is good if you want to know about the Phillies. He’s legitimately plugged in down there. He’s also good for seldom known nuggets – a very good researcher and he knows his limits and doesn’t try to stretch too much.

    Law is a pain – a prospect hugger in every sense of the word and a true contrarian. I wouldn’t mind so much if he actually backed up his arguments but when challenged he resorts to sarcasm as if to say “well if you’re too stupid to know why the Yankees would have been better off with Mike Trout than with CC Sabathia and Mark Teixeira then I’m not going to dignify it with an answer.” That said, some of his stuff is at least funny.

    Olney is trying too hard to be Peter Gammons. At the same time he, like Michael Kay during his radio show, is so consumed with not wanting to be considered a Yankee homer that I think he goes too far the other way sometimes.

  78. Erin January 12th, 2011 at 10:40 am

    tyanksfan36 January 12th, 2011 at 10:22 am
    It was 40 degrees out when I woke up this morning, luckily I don?t have school or work to go to. I don?t know how you even go outside in the snow. If I were to go out right now I?d have to wear my jacket, hat and gloves but probably flip flops.

    **************************
    Trust me, you never want to go out in the snow wearing flip flops. ;)

  79. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 10:43 am

    BoJo -

    Overall I have a bigger problem with the “insiders” than I do with guys like Neyer and Law. Law’s essentially nothing more than a minor league scout (if he were a good minor league scout he would likely be employed by a team and not ESPN – so bear that in mind).

    The “insiders” though talk like investigative journalists without doing any investigating; that’s where I have the problem.

    They each have their sources within the organizations that they used to cover as beat guys – and maybe in a couple of other places where friends they made on the beat have relocated. By and large though – they don’t do any digging for stories – they simply report what they’re handed.

    Take the winter meetings for example – no one was digging into who was going to sign Crawford or Lee – they were hanging out in the lobby and waiting for the GMs to come by and hold informal pressers. To me that’s not being an “insider” it’s being a stenographer.

  80. blake January 12th, 2011 at 10:44 am

    I don’t like Neyer. I think he’s one dimensional and looks only at the sabermetric side of things….of course he doesn’t pretend otherwise. I think Law thinks he knows more than he actually does which annoys me….if he’d lose the snarky attitude he would be ok. Buster seems like a nice guy.

    Tim Kurkjian is actually probably my favorite at ESPN because he knows what he is and just does that…..he doesn’t try to be more.

  81. pat January 12th, 2011 at 10:44 am

    Bojo

    What I’ve noticed with those guys and the national media in general is they aren’t as plugged into any one club specifically so they count on others for their information and that could lose something in the translation.

    Serious fans of a specific team sometimes have a better understanding of the intricacies of their club than any of the national guys do because they are focussed on the bigger picture.

  82. West Coast Yankee Fan January 12th, 2011 at 10:46 am

    “Law’s essentially nothing more than a minor league scout (if he were a good minor league scout he would likely be employed by a team and not ESPN – so bear that in mind).”

    ****

    He makes much more money working for ESPN.

  83. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 10:46 am

    Good comments–

    Like Chip, I don’t lump them all together. I think some lean more towards breaking stories and rumors, and others lean more towards analysis.

    I haven’t included others like Joe P. who simply write beautifully about the sport…focusing more here on reporters.

    I would love to find a real solid analyst who thinks through trends and includes issues like the financial aspects of player moves, and long-term strategies of ball clubs, but have yet to find such a writer outside of small independent blog sites.

    Perhaps these blog sites are the foundations for our next great class of baseball writers.

  84. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 10:50 am

    West Coast Yankee Fan January 12th, 2011 at 10:46 am
    “Law’s essentially nothing more than a minor league scout (if he were a good minor league scout he would likely be employed by a team and not ESPN – so bear that in mind).”

    ****

    He makes much more money working for ESPN.

    —————

    And he doesn’t have to travel as much…

    But in this age of everyone looking to hire the next Theo, don’t you think that if Law was half as good or as smart as he thinks he is some team would have come knocking on his door with an Assistant GM gig, if not a full fledged GM job?

  85. hardwired7 January 12th, 2011 at 10:50 am

    Another statistical coincidence:

    if Derek Jeter averages 190 hits for the next seven seasons, he will tie Pete Rose’s hit record.

    (I’m not saying it’s likely to happen, but 7 * 190 = 1,330…the exact # of hits Jeter is currently behind Rose.)

  86. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 10:51 am

    blake

    Tim Kurkjian is actually probably my favorite at ESPN because he knows what he is and just does that…..he doesn’t try to be more.

    ——————————————————————————–

    He seems to be the most genuine of all of them.

    He also has a passion for baseball.

  87. upstate kate January 12th, 2011 at 10:51 am

    I like Jack Curry. He seems to be fairly accurate and well informed.

  88. heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 10:52 am

    Tim Kurkjian is actually probably my favorite at ESPN because he knows what he is and just does that?..he doesn?t try to be more.
    ______

    Agreed. Kurkjian is the man @ ESPN. Doesn’t seem to have the rep like Gammons but he genuinely seems to give unbiased insight

  89. Crawdaddy January 12th, 2011 at 10:52 am

    “Law’s essentially nothing more than a minor league scout (if he were a good minor league scout he would likely be employed by a team and not ESPN – so bear that in mind).”

    Frankie P. said Law isn’t a scout, but trys to act like he’s one.

  90. blake January 12th, 2011 at 10:52 am

    Maine,

    Yea he just seems like he really loves it…..and that comes across to the viewer/reader.

  91. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 10:53 am

    One guy I have been very, very impressed with, and can see great things for int he future is the guy who writes The Captain’s Blog. Uses stats and insight, and seems to really think through some interesting issues.

  92. randy l. January 12th, 2011 at 10:54 am

    “It didn’t start here till around 7:00 this a.m.

    It’s really coming down hard now.

    I’m not sure what the predicted amount is.”

    maine yankee-

    what you need is a Percota snow forecast. then you will know exactly what will happen.

    here’s some of last years predictions:

    2010 PECOTA projections:
    “The defending champion New York Yankees will finish the season 93-69 and in third place in the AL East out of the playoffs. The Rays will win the division, while the Red Sox finish second and claim the AL Wild Card.”

    well, one out of three wasn’t that bad.

    are the new PECOTA projections out yet?

    can’t wait to hear what the yankees record is projected at.

    i’m projecting PERCOTA will project yankees at 91-71.

    but i’m not worried because the yankees will take a pathagorian supplement and overachieve for 2011.

  93. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 10:55 am

    Craw–

    I like Frankie P’s work too. Always enjoyable to read his scouting reports.

  94. West Coast Yankee Fan January 12th, 2011 at 10:55 am

    As an ESPN Insider I just received a length questionnaire from them yesterday which I filled out. They asked for opinion on all their writers, what material I liked, what I wanted to see more of, etc. I understand their desire to focus on what draws paying customers, as most commercial media outlets do. Fantasy sports is probably their biggest drawing card right now and supplying information to those who bet on games.

    I think blogs like RAB and others are a great source for the more in-depth analysis that Bojo is talking about. Sites that need to draw viewers to make money won’t go in that direction, the audience numbers and interest in such material just isn’t there.

  95. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 10:55 am

    Chip

    Olney has a connection to Vermont.

    He grew up on a dairy farm there.

  96. blake January 12th, 2011 at 10:57 am

    Frankie P is good. He actually seems to know and understand what he’s trying to break down.

  97. 108 stitches January 12th, 2011 at 10:58 am

    Agreed. Kurkjian is the man @ ESPN. Doesn’t seem to have the rep like Gammons but he genuinely seems to give unbiased insight

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Tim Kurkjian is listenable and well informed unlike the other analyst wannabes employed at ESPN.

  98. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 10:59 am

    BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 10:46 am
    Good comments–

    Like Chip, I don’t lump them all together. I think some lean more towards breaking stories and rumors, and others lean more towards analysis.

    I haven’t included others like Joe P. who simply write beautifully about the sport…focusing more here on reporters.

    I would love to find a real solid analyst who thinks through trends and includes issues like the financial aspects of player moves, and long-term strategies of ball clubs, but have yet to find such a writer outside of small independent blog sites.

    Perhaps these blog sites are the foundations for our next great class of baseball writers.

    —————-

    The reason you don’t find that on a national scale is that it’s just too big.

    I was a journalist and eventually editor for an international magazine – we focused on a specific industry and I could – and probably still can – give the broadstrokes on most of the major players in the industry – but to know each company’s long term plans, the specifics about what different hirings meant to the company that made the hire and the company that lost the employee. That would have been overwhelming. The same is true for baseball.

    The local guys have a better feel for what an organization is doing because a guy like Chad (for example) spends the majority of his time and effort is spent focused on the Yankees and their inner workings. He may be able to tell us something about the Padres, but I doubt he spends much time researching their system unless it somehow relates to the Yankees.

  99. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2011 at 11:00 am

    It wasn’t Nunez being in the deals that stopped any of the trades (Lee and Greinke). It was the combination of players involved. Four of the very best in the system was twice what any of the other team gave up. It was that combination derailed those trades.

  100. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 11:01 am

    MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 10:51 am
    blake

    Tim Kurkjian is actually probably my favorite at ESPN because he knows what he is and just does that…..he doesn’t try to be more.

    ——————————————————————————–

    He seems to be the most genuine of all of them.

    He also has a passion for baseball

    ——————-

    I think he’s truly the biggest fan of the game that they have at ESPN. He’s very much in awe of just how much talent it takes to be a major league ballplayer – even a bad one.

  101. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 11:01 am

    MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 10:55 am
    Chip

    Olney has a connection to Vermont.

    He grew up on a dairy farm there.

    ————

    I know. I meant the fact that he covered the Yankees for years with the NY Times.

  102. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 11:02 am

    As an example of what I consider great potential at The Captain’s Log, check out this article about Ryan Duren. I think it was by far the best piece I read about him among all the articles published,

    http://captnsblog.wordpress.co.....l-problem/

  103. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 11:03 am

    upstate kate January 12th, 2011 at 10:51 am
    I like Jack Curry. He seems to be fairly accurate and well informed.

    —————

    Curry’s well informed because he works for the Yankees. He is for the Yankees what Heyman is for Boras.

    There’s nothing wrong with that by the way. If you want to know what the Yankees are thinking the two best people you can hear from are Curry or Cashman.

  104. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 11:04 am

    randy

    That sounds about as accurate as the weather forecast.

    I don’t know if you saw my post to you the other day so I’ll repeat it.

    I started reading a book titled When Towns Had Teams.

    It’s about the summer leagues here in Maine.

    There were a couple from Farmington.

    Some of your family here might enjoy it if they played ball.

    It talks about a couple of teams from Farmington.

    I’m waiting to see if they mention a grouchy catcher but I haven’t got that far yet. :lol:

  105. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 11:05 am

    Typo–Ryne

  106. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 11:06 am

    By the way – I think you can add Kyle Loshe to the list of pitchers who will be available this spring. Not sure if there’s any interest in him or not but I don’t think St. Louis would mind moving him.

  107. blake January 12th, 2011 at 11:07 am

    GB,

    Agreed. That and the fact that Cashman probably was sensing he was being used to drive the Rangers to include Smoak.

  108. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 11:07 am

    Chip

    I wasn’t trying to make a point in regards to a post of yours.

    Just throwing out a piece of useless information.

    The reason I took note of it was because I also grew up on a farm.

  109. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 11:09 am

    MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 11:07 am
    Chip

    I wasn’t trying to make a point in regards to a post of yours.

    Just throwing out a piece of useless information.

    The reason I took note of it was because I also grew up on a farm.

    ————–

    Ah…
    My brother in law lives on a farm in Vermont. It’s nice; they have ducks and chickens.

  110. LGY January 12th, 2011 at 11:11 am

    “(if he were a good minor league scout he would likely be employed by a team and not ESPN – so bear that in mind).”

    ————-

    Chip,

    How many times am I going to have to correct you on this?

    Law has gotten several big league job offers, including Assistant GM gigs, but prefers the lifestyle and money at ESPN

  111. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 11:13 am

    MLB TradeRumors says that the Mets aren’t planning to cut Luis Castillo (yet).

    I still think a Castillo for Silva deal makes a ton of sense for both teams.

    Chicago saves a little money (they’ll probably have to kick in a couple of bucks) and adds a 2b to compete with Blake DeWitt for the everyday job.

    The Mets get a veteran starter for the middle of their rotation which will be a mess until they get Johan back. Right now they’re looking at: Pelfrey, Niese, RA, Capuano and either Ollie or Gee. And Capuano is far from a sure thing himself.

  112. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 11:14 am

    LGY January 12th, 2011 at 11:11 am
    “(if he were a good minor league scout he would likely be employed by a team and not ESPN – so bear that in mind).”

    ————-

    Chip,

    How many times am I going to have to correct you on this?

    Law has gotten several big league job offers, including Assistant GM gigs, but prefers the lifestyle and money at ESPN

    ————–

    Probably at least a few more times.

    I didn’t realize you were his agent. How do you have this fantastic information about Keith Law?

  113. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 11:14 am

    Here is another great example of what I consider great sports writing…same guy discussing whether or not Hoffman should be in HOF.

    http://captnsblog.wordpress.co.....candidate/

    My vote? No–he doesn’t deserve to get in. I’m a big WAR guy, and his stats were really very unimpressive. I think 50 or 55 lifetime WAR should be cut off for HOF,a nd most relievers don’t cut it (except for Mo).

  114. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 11:18 am

    Chip

    Ah…
    My brother in law lives on a farm in Vermont. It’s nice; they have ducks and chickens.

    —————————————————————————————————-

    That’s why I mentioned it. I remember you telling about the in-laws.

    Do they get their living from the farm?

  115. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 11:18 am

    BoJo

    I’m not a big WAR guy but I agree with you that Hoffman doesn’t belong in the Hall but he’ll probably get there. Not first ballot like Mo, but he’ll get there eventually.

  116. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 11:19 am

    MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 11:18 am
    Chip

    Ah…
    My brother in law lives on a farm in Vermont. It’s nice; they have ducks and chickens.

    —————————————————————————————————-

    That’s why I mentioned it. I remember you telling about the in-laws.

    Do they get their living from the farm?

    ——————–

    No. His wife is a nurse and he is a carpenter.

  117. West Coast Yankee Fan January 12th, 2011 at 11:21 am

    WAR is not mentioned in the voting guidelines for the HOF and was not around for the great majority of HOF voting so why would anyone now be judged by that criteria.

    Hoffman is the all-time saves leader with a ridiculous 601 and a lifetime ERA of .287 Slam dunk. You cannot keep him out.

  118. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2011 at 11:21 am

    Hoffman is certainly HOF worthy If they’re trying to push Edgar Martinez into the HOF, there’s certainly a spot for Hoffmamm, Lee Smith and Billy Wagner.

  119. tyanksfan36 January 12th, 2011 at 11:22 am

    This has nothing to do with the Yankees really but if you like “Say Yes to the Dress” like I do, they are going to have Chad Gaudins fiance/wife on the new episode friday. Just putting that out there.

    And I have a reliable source as I just saw a preview on TLC :)

  120. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 11:23 am

    Chip–

    In looking at the article, and then Baseball-Ref, I think the only reliever I would vote for to be in HOF would be Rivera. You might call that a higher standard…but to me, guys like Goose and Sutter and others just don’t make the cut. They could be in the Hall of Almost Good Enough (HAGE)

  121. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 11:23 am

    GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2011 at 11:21 am
    Hoffman is certainly HOF worthy If they’re trying to push Edgar Martinez into the HOF, there’s certainly a spot for Hoffmamm, Lee Smith and Billy Wagner.

    ———————

    Well I agree that if you push Edgar into the HOF then yes, Hoffman, Smith and Wagner have spots too – but then again I don’t believe Edgar should be in there. Only one DH I can think of putting in – Big Hurt.

  122. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 11:24 am

    Or the Hoagie (Hall of Almost Great Isn’t Enough)

  123. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 11:27 am

    BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 11:23 am
    Chip–

    In looking at the article, and then Baseball-Ref, I think the only reliever I would vote for to be in HOF would be Rivera. You might call that a higher standard…but to me, guys like Goose and Sutter and others just don’t make the cut. They could be in the Hall of Almost Good Enough (HAGE)

    ————–

    I would probably agree with that.

    Eck and Smoltz are different given that they were also very solid starters as well as being dominant closers

  124. Cashman needs to go January 12th, 2011 at 11:27 am

    Chip what do you think of this deal?

    Yankees send: Joba, Romine, Nunez, Laird

    Padres send: Heath Bell & Wade Leblanc

  125. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 11:28 am

    I like Hogies.

  126. LGY January 12th, 2011 at 11:29 am

    Randy

    The PECOTA thing you posted was not the final projection. There was a glitch they fixed that was hurting the Yankees projection, among other things.

  127. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 11:30 am

    MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 11:28 am

    I like Hogies.
    +++++++++++++
    I thought the spelling was hoagies…and after I went to all that trouble to figure out an acronym too!

  128. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 11:32 am

    How can the all-time saves leader (thus far) not be HOF-worthy?

  129. Joe from Long Island January 12th, 2011 at 11:35 am

    Doreen – I just read the other night that Cy Young – winner of 511 ML games, the all-time wins leader, the guy they named the award after – was left off about a quarter of the ballots when he was elected. (Source: Baseball-reference.com)

    I cannot imagine what the voters who left him off were thinking.

  130. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 11:35 am

    Doreen–

    One could say he isn’t because the fact that he is all time save leader reflects more a shift in the role than his performance. Before 1980s, he would have been used like Goose or Sutter, and never had so many chances…

    So, because of the difference in the role, voters could look at other stats besides the number of saves. That brings me back to his value based on WAR…which wasn’t that great. In other words, he didn’t actually perform so far ahead of peers that he was anything special. A true HOFer like Mo did perform way above, and his WAR value reflects that.

  131. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 11:37 am

    Bojo

    I posted earlier that English wasn’t my strength so don’t judge proper spelling by me. :lol:

    Unlike GB7 I don’t try to blame my dog. :lol:

  132. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 11:38 am

    Cashman needs to go January 12th, 2011 at 11:27 am
    Chip what do you think of this deal?

    Yankees send: Joba, Romine, Nunez, Laird

    Padres send: Heath Bell & Wade Leblanc

    ————————

    San Diego wouldn’t go for it.

    After essentially combat-lossing AGone if they’re going to have any hope of retaining a fan base then they’re going to need a big win in any Heath Bell deal. Joba and a pupu platter of prospects (of which only one is ML ready) won’t cut it. To say nothing of inluding LeBlanc in the deal.

  133. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 11:38 am

    Maine–

    His dog ate your hogie?

  134. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 11:39 am

    Doreen

    If you listen to Goose none of the closers today measure up to his time.

  135. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 11:41 am

    Bojo

    If he did he’d be on a platter now. :lol:

  136. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 11:41 am

    MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 11:39 am
    Doreen

    If you listen to Goose none of the closers today measure up to his time.

    ——————-

    Always liked Gossage but he needs to get over himself.

  137. yankeefeminista January 12th, 2011 at 11:42 am

    Looks like Rays may be signing Krazy Kyle. “They” can talk all they want about Farnsworth’s reduced walk rates (3.0 BB/9) and reduced homerun percentage (HR/PA from 6% to 2%). However, I would never “trust” Farnsworth, and I am surprised that the Rays would, considering their pitching savvy.

    I will forever be traumatized by Krazy Kyle’s flat fastball.

  138. raymagnetic January 12th, 2011 at 11:42 am

    Edgar Martinez has a higher lifetime OPS+ than Alex Rodriguez.

    He has a higher career OPS than Hank Aaron.

    He’s 35th ALL TIME in OPS.

    He’s a HOF in every sense of the word.

  139. Cashman needs to go January 12th, 2011 at 11:44 am

    After essentially combat-lossing AGone if they’re going to have any hope of retaining a fan base then they’re going to need a big win in any Heath Bell deal. Joba and a pupu platter of prospects (of which only one is ML ready) won’t cut it. To say nothing of inluding LeBlanc in the deal

    ******************

    So giving them their SS, catcher, 1st basemen and possibly closer of the future (afterall thats what the decided to do when they traded gonzalez – set up for the future – ) won’t do it? Other than casey kelly – who may amount to nothing – they got bupkis in return for the 3rd best 1st baseman in baseball…eric patterson and anthony rizzo?!?! gimme a break…

    whom do you have to add (and/or take away) for the padres to accept – and please don’t tell me montero

  140. yankeefeminista January 12th, 2011 at 11:45 am

    Chip January 12th, 2011 at 11:41 am
    MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 11:39 am
    Doreen

    If you listen to Goose none of the closers today measure up to his time.

    ——————-

    Always liked Gossage but he needs to get over himself.
    _____
    Love Goose, but he sounds like a broken record. He should show a little restraint.

  141. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 11:46 am

    raymagnetic

    How did his defense compare to those players?

  142. ac1 January 12th, 2011 at 11:46 am

    farnsworth with the rays. fun times…..

    for the AL East that is.

  143. raymagnetic January 12th, 2011 at 11:48 am

    Maine,

    Are you saying that if he sucked big time defensively that would add to his candidacy?

    He was one of the best designated hitters. If they aren’t going to allow DH’s into the hall then they should remove the “position” altogether.

  144. YsGuy January 12th, 2011 at 11:49 am

    heyman’s gig in the offseason is to be first with inside info on player movement. he does it pretty well i think. his in season work is not all that intertesting b/c that sort of stuff isnt as big in season and he’s not a game analyst.

    kirjian seems like a very nice guy, but it gets old hearing him say something like “manny is the 9th guy in the modern era to have 2 game winning homers in a month containing the letter r while on a team that wears primarily blue uniforms…

    olney just needs to lighten up, he always has this hard stare into the camera that makes him look a little psycho to me. i think hes a good reporter/writer who doesnt work well on tv.

  145. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 11:50 am

    MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 11:46 am

    raymagnetic

    How did his defense compare to those players?
    ++++++++++++++++++
    If one judges by the standards of one or two posters here, you could say he made fewer errors.

  146. Chip January 12th, 2011 at 11:51 am

    raymagnetic January 12th, 2011 at 11:42 am
    Edgar Martinez has a higher lifetime OPS+ than Alex Rodriguez.

    He has a higher career OPS than Hank Aaron.

    He’s 35th ALL TIME in OPS.

    He’s a HOF in every sense of the word.

    ————————-

    Completely one dimensional player though.

    One stat – in this case OPS – should not be enough for the Hall.

    only 2,247 hits, 300 HR, 1,200 RBI.

    If you’re going to be a DH you need a much better stat line than that.

  147. YsGuy January 12th, 2011 at 11:51 am

    i agree that edgar is being penalized for not going out and being a crappy fielder. to me, thats not fair. i dont know that his hitting stats get him in, but his lack of fielding stats shouldnt keep him out.

  148. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 11:52 am

    If one used the standard that I like (WAR), Edgar’s 67.2 puts him solidly in the HOF.

  149. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 11:53 am

    randy l-

    From your 10:54 AM comment I take it you don’t like 91 wins for the Yanks. Are you going over or under?

  150. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 11:54 am

    “If one used the standard that I like (WAR), Edgar’s 67.2 puts him solidly in the HOF.”

    Might be an argument against WAR. Not sure how I feel about Edgar in the HOF.

  151. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 11:56 am

    WYH–

    Isn’t the HOF supposed to be about how you measured up against your peers? And based on that comparison, how well you did against other time periods?

    WAR measures that EXACTLY.

  152. raymagnetic January 12th, 2011 at 11:56 am

    “Completely one dimensional player though.”

    His one dimension was being one of the best hitters who ever played the game.

  153. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 11:56 am

    I think sometimes you don’t need to look at WAR to determine whether someone is HOF worthy. I think sometimes certain achievements speak for themselves.

    I would think setting the all-time saves records speaks to someone’s effectiveness/excellence over a period of time. He may not have been as pretty as Mo doing it, but he did it nonetheless.

  154. El Duque January 12th, 2011 at 11:56 am

    The wild card next year is offically safe! Thx to the Rays that they just signed Kyle Farnsworth!

    LOL

    He will get killed by the YANKEES!

  155. pat January 12th, 2011 at 11:57 am

    Buster_ESPN Farnsworth’s deal is one-year, $3.25 m., with an option; could be worth $6 million over two years.

  156. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 11:57 am

    BoJo-

    I understand, but not playing the field counts against him in my book. I’m trying to decide how much.

  157. randy l. January 12th, 2011 at 11:59 am

    “I started reading a book titled When Towns Had Teams.

    It’s about the summer leagues here in Maine.

    There were a couple from Farmington.”

    maine yankee-

    i knew if i talked to you long enough you’d come up with something good at least once.

    this is great.

    i ordered a copy on amazon for my father.

    on google books there is a lot of the book previewed and i just finished reading about a farmington team in the late fourties that was a big deal at the time. my father broke his leg catching on a semi pro team at that time so i’m going to ask him about the team and see if he played on it.

    i emailed him some of the article. my mother gets it on her ipad i got her last summer, but sometimes it’s a little hard to read responses because she types the whole message in the subject box.

  158. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 11:59 am

    raymagnetic

    I think if you try to compare him to those players you are only looking at one part of their game.

    It’s hard to compare a one dimentional player to one that plays both.

    Him getting into the HOF is a different matter.

    As much as some from the past have trouble embracing some of the modern game I could see it being awhile before they let a DH in.

  159. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 12:02 pm

    Doreen–

    He only got the all-time record because he happened to come into role when it shifted so that he would get that many appearances. In other words, he was one of the first to be used so frequently. His record will fall by the wayside in time as others have the chance to make that many appearances as well.

    As an analogy, simply because Ned Williamson in 1884 once set the record for home runs in one season at 27 (which was almost double the next closest), does that mean he should have be in HOF? That mark didn’t stand the test of time, and 601 saves will not either.

  160. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 12:05 pm

    randy

    I thought it was you that played back then. :lol:

    There were some good players from this area too.

    One got drafted by the Twins but their coaching wasn’t as good back then. They couldn’t teach him how to hit enough. :lol:

    Like Belanger with the glove with even less of a bat.

  161. Cashman needs to go January 12th, 2011 at 12:05 pm

    just my 2 cents about getting into the HOF and edgar martinez…

    how many players are in the HOF based on their fielding skills – 10 at the most? so i don’t think fielding matters one bit…its all about the hitting and pitching..

    as for martinez…if i were to tell you that player A had 2,200 hits, 300 hr’s and 1,200 rbi and played 1st base or rightfield would you even consider him for the HOF…probably not…

    he played in basically 16 years so if you average his stats he’d have 140 hits, 19 hr’s and 79 rbis per year….no thanks…

    even more…. jim rice (who i don’t think is a HOF) had about 80 more hr’s, 250 more rbi’s and about 250 more hits in the same 16 year career

  162. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 12:10 pm

    Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2011 at 11:57 am

    BoJo-

    I understand, but not playing the field counts against him in my book. I’m trying to decide how much.
    ++++++++++++++
    Then add a negative amount to his WAR score to reflect what you think it would have been.

    He did play 564 games out of 2,055 at 3B….so over 25% of his time is already accounted for. I’m trying to find his stats for the games he did play…and we can use that as base to see what he would have done…

  163. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 12:10 pm

    Would a player that was a DH put up the same numbers if they also played defense?

    I don’t think they would. The physical demands on a player in the field and dealing with the heat takes a toll on the offensive numbers.

  164. blake January 12th, 2011 at 12:11 pm

    I think too much of an emphasis is placed on cumulative stats with the HOF and not enough on peak greatness. I think its nice to have both but Im not sure that a player that was great for 5 or 6 years should be any less worthy than one who was very good for 10+.

  165. yanks61 January 12th, 2011 at 12:12 pm

    BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 11:02 am
    As an example of what I consider great potential at The Captain’s Log, check out this article about Ryan Duren. I think it was by far the best piece I read about him among all the articles published,

    http://captnsblog.wordpress.co…..l-problem

    Very good article BoJo. Thanks for sharing.

    I saw Duren pitch numerous times back in the 50′s. For a couple of years he was simply unbelievable. One game at Comiskey he was knocked down himself. He was absolutely livid. When he took the mound in the bottom half of the inning, still steaming, he proceded to strike out something like six of the next seven batters he faced.

    Staying on the subject of great closers, Goose has got a very good point, though he’s probably beaten the point to death. Just looking at some of the great old time Yankee relievers, guys like Johnny Murphy, Joe Page, and later Sparky Lyle and Goose often pitched multiple innings – sometimes three or four an outing.

    So while Mo is clearly the greatest closer of this latest era (going back perhaps to the 80′s?), in fairness, it’s seems hard to say what he might have done had he had to do the same – or vice-versa for that matter. Just my two cents.

  166. Doreen January 12th, 2011 at 12:13 pm

    Bojo -

    I don’t know about that.

    I think most closers don’t last long enough. Or aren’t consistent long enough.

    Who is out there today that might come close to that record (outside of Mo)?

  167. heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 12:14 pm

    I think too much of an emphasis is placed on cumulative stats with the HOF and not enough on peak greatness. I think its nice to have both but Im not sure that a player that was great for 5 or 6 years should be any less worthy than one who was very good for 10+.
    _____

    Not sure I agree, and I’m sure the voters don’t – else Donnie Baseball would be a candidate for the hall and we know he’s not

  168. MaineYankee January 12th, 2011 at 12:15 pm

    Bojo

    He did play 564 games out of 2,055 at 3B….so over 25% of his time is already accounted for. I’m trying to find his stats for the games he did play…and we can use that as base to see what he would have done…

    —————————————————————————————————————-

    Without the DH position his numbers would have ended at about that 25%.

    If they based HOF entry by projections Mattingly would be in.

  169. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2011 at 12:16 pm

    Dave Parker was every bit the player as Martinez, as was Al Oliver and they never got close to the HOF.

  170. blake January 12th, 2011 at 12:16 pm

    Heyman….they don’t agree. But that’s ok. Im not saying you shouldn’t need a long span of good play to get in…..just that a player’s best should be weighed more greatly IMO.

  171. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 12:16 pm

    Cashman needs to go January 12th, 2011 at 12:05 pm
    +++++++++++
    You just opened my eyes to a big issue.

    Jim Rice had a 41 WAR…too low for HOF in my opinion. Yet Martinez had 67.2…which seemingly should put him in.

    Yet, Edgar’s numbers were not as good.

    What is the flaw?

    WAR scores are determined by rating a player against his peers. When Rice was playing, there were some very good contemporaries to compare him against, and thus his scores were lower.

    When Edgar played DH, there were very few good DHs. The best players were still playing the field. Thus, he compares very well in WAR.

    As a result, when looking at WAR for Dhs or a role relatively new (like closer), I will now consider the level of competition, or how the DH would be graded if he played in the field.

  172. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 12:18 pm

    Based on your comment Cashman, I would now agree that Edgar should not be in HOF.

  173. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 12:18 pm

    Of course, neither should Rice IMO.

  174. J. Alfred Prufrock January 12th, 2011 at 12:23 pm

    So while Mo is clearly the greatest closer of this latest era (going back perhaps to the 80?s?), in fairness, it’s seems hard to say what he might have done had he had to do the same – or vice-versa for that matter. Just my two cents.

    ///
    Let’s not forget games like game seven AL championship in 2003 when Mariano threw 3 shutout innings to win that game.got five outs in 2009 game six to clinch the WS.so in fairness to Mo,when he has to do it,he does it.

    YankFem – my “love” for Goose is strained a great deal.it’s one thing to differentiate eras & the changing role of closer,but to go after Rivera as often as he has is odious.sorry Goose,this guy wud be great in any era & if you can’t see that & feel the need to run him down to build yrself up,then you’re a little coward/fool.STFU already.the guy ur picking on is the epitome of class,why don’t you watch him in action & try to learn something instead of tryin to run a sabre thru his unconditional greatness.

  175. heyman_sux January 12th, 2011 at 12:24 pm

    Heyman?.they don?t agree. But that?s ok. Im not saying you shouldn?t need a long span of good play to get in?..just that a player?s best should be weighed more greatly IMO.
    ________

    Yea I understand your point. I just think that distinction or weighing is already made to an extent when you talk about guys who are ‘first ballot’ hall of famers. Typically guys with just the cumulative stats get in (eventually) based on their bottom line production. However, the first ballot guys get in b/c they have the stats AND they had an incredible peak.

    IMO, edgar certainly had great rate stats but those are things that fluctuate from year to year. That’s not to take anything away from him at all. Players with the best rate stats are rewarded each year with MVPs, silver sluggers etc…whereas HOF is more of a career achievement. Chip gave the numbers – 2,247 hits, 300 HR, 1,200 RBI. I don’t think that gets him in….

  176. YsGuy January 12th, 2011 at 12:33 pm

    wait, theres no way anybody is going to ‘blow away’ 601 saves. hoffman became a f/t closer in 93 his 4th year in the league. from that point on he averages about 60 innings per year, meaning he was basically a one-inning guy. (that average is actually a bit lower than mo’s who often topped 70 ip)
    rivera has been a closer since his 3rd year in the league and he will likely just get by the 601 total,and he is another guy who closed primarily in the ‘one inning save’ era.
    unless you see someone coming along and blowing rivera away in terms of being an effective closer, nobody is going to blow away either the 601 by hoffman or whatever number mo ends up with. in fact, id say its going to be a very very long time till either’s save record is bettered, IF EVER!

  177. BoJo January 12th, 2011 at 12:45 pm

    YsGuy–

    If a pitcher averages 45 saves per year, he’ll get to 600 in about 13 seasons. That means a kid like Neftali Feliz–who has 42 saves at age 22–could easily do it. It is not such a big deal if clubs are going to put great arms out there…At age 26, Soria has 132 saves, needs just 468..which he can make in 10 years if he averages 45 saves per year…

    It is not impossible at all.

  178. RS January 12th, 2011 at 2:10 pm

    Before he went to the Mets, Krod was well on pace to challenge the saves record. Now with all his personal/legal issues, I’m not sure contending teams are going to want to keep him around long enough to get there.

    Papelbon once looked like he could be an effective closer for the next 10+ years. But he’s already declining and has had shoulder problems in the past.

    The next big crop of closers are Feliz, Bailey, Soria, and Marmol. We’ll see where they are 5 years from now, let alone 10.

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