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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Yankees organizational depth: Starting pitchers

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 15, 2011 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post


There is perhaps no higher commodity in baseball than a young starting pitcher. As the Yankees have discovered this winter, finding a reliable starter on the trade market is difficult and costly, and the free agent market is no sure thing. The bad news for the Yankees is that the back of their big league rotation is still unsettled. The good news is that there are a lot of legitimate pitching prospects nearly ready for the show.

In the big leagues
The Yankees have their ace in CC Sabathia. They have their young gun in Phil Hughes. They have their erratic talent in A.J. Burnett. Beyond that, the Yankees have high-hopes for Ivan Nova and a whole lot of praying for rain. For now, Sergio Mitre seems to be the top in-house option to round out the rotation, but that will almost certainly change — in one way or another — between now and spring training. There is still hope that Andy Pettitte will come back, and if he doesn’t, the free agent market still offers a handful of risk-reward pitchers coming back from injury, plus a few veterans looking for some sort of resurgence. The Yankees top pitching target went elsewhere, and now they’ll have to build a rotation with the pieces that are left.

On the verge
At this point, Nova seems nearly locked into a big league rotation spot, but the Triple-A rotation could still have five legitimate prospects, headlined by Hector Noesi and Andrew Brackman, each of whom is on the 40-man, possibly leaving them in line for early promotions should the Yankees need an additional starter. D.J. Mitchell and David Phelps are also in line to open in Triple-A after finishing last season at that level. Dellin Betances and Manny Banuelos — considered, along with Brackman, to be the top pitching prospects in the system, affectionately known as the Killer Bs — will likely return to Double-A, but they could move quickly.

Adam Warren, Gordon Stoneburner and Shaeffer Hall are also legitimate rotation prospects who would be far more prominent in most systems but fall somewhat into the shadows because of the Yankees upper-level depth. Warren in the most advanced of those three, having made 10 Double-A starts, but Stoneburner might be generating the most buzz after a 2.41 ERA between Low-A and High-A last season. Hall is a lefty out of Florida State, and the Yankees are willing to push him aggressively.

Deep in the system
The bulk of the Yankees rotation prospects are actually in the upper levels of the system, having already cleared several minor league hurdles. That’s one of the most impressive things about the system as a whole. In the lowest levels, there are three names that stand out: Brett Marshall, Jose Ramirez and Bryan Mitchell. Back from Tommy John surgery, Marshall had a 2.50 ERA and a .199 opponents batting average in Charleston last season. Ramirez put himself firmly on the map in 2009 with a terrific first season in the States.  He followed that with a 3.60 ERA and 105 strikeouts last season in Charleston. Mitchell is the  youngest of this trio, and he pitched well in the short-season leagues in his first taste of pro ball. He was a 16th-round pick in 2009, falling only because of signability issues. He’s considered a front-line talent.

As a rule, I’m hesitant to get too caught up in players at the Class A level — pitchers especially — because they have so far to go, but those three standout as names to know and follow right now. Other names to keep tucked away: Jairo Heredia (talent slowed by health and conditioning issues), Gabe Encinas (the top starter taken in last year’s draft) and Sean Black (seventh-round pick in ’09 had a 3.88 ERA in Charleston and made two Tampa starts last season).

Organizational depth chart
My own rough guess. It’s far too early for the Yankees to settle on who will be where next season.
New York: CC Sabathia, Phil Hughes, A.J. Burnett, Ivan Nova and a free agent
Scranton/WB: Hector Noesi, Andrew Brackman, David Phelps, D.J. Mitchell and Lance Pendleton
Trenton: Adam Warren, Dellin Betances, Manny Banuelos, Graham Stoneburner, Shaeffer Hall
Tampa: Jose Ramirez, Brett Marshall, Sean Black, Jairo Heredia, Josh Romanski
Charleston: Bryan Mitchell, Shane Greene, Michael O’Brien, Nik Turley, Zachary Varce

Even this late into the offseason, the big league rotation remains a work in progress. As for who gets the first call beyond those top five, that’s also up in the air. There should be enough talent in Scranton to build a legitimate competition for any spot-starter needs that pop up during the season.

For now, I’ve projected a Scranton rotation that includes Pendleton, a Rule 5 pick currently hoping to win a spot in the Astros rotation. Minor league signee Andy Sisco could also work as a Triple-A starter, as could Kei Igawa if necessary. When he’s ready to come back from surgery, Jeremy Bleich could rejoin the Trenton rotation. He made eight starts there last season. Craig Heyer, who was sent to the Arizona Fall League and has worked as both a starter and reliever, could fit into the Trenton rotation at some point, especially if Pendleton sticks with Houston. As for the lower levels, those rotations are more difficult for me to predict, and some of those assignments might be based on what these pitches show in spring training.

Associated Press photo of Hughes, headshots of Sabathia, Brackman and Marshall

 
 

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115 Responses to “Yankees organizational depth: Starting pitchers”

  1. mick January 15th, 2011 at 3:36 pm

    Is this the deepest our minors have been in pitching ever?

  2. Betsy January 15th, 2011 at 3:41 pm

    Rich, I don’t think Cash looks like a fool (and he’s respected around the game) because if this is true, then I think everyone knows that the Stein boys’ apple don’t fall far from their dad’s tree. I hate that Hank is involved again, that can only mean bad things.

    Blake, I think the Sox are the best team, but I don’t believe in conceding anything.

    Doreen, I don’t agree with that source who thinks this has nothing to do with Cashman’s authority. I realize that ownership (of any team, not just the Yankees) always has the last say – for a move or non-move – but Cashman clearly didn’t want to give up a pick (and who’s to say he wanted to give this much $$$). Now, I can understand why the Stein boys would make this move. As it stood, this team was not all that great coming into the season – certainly not from their viewpoint – and while Hal for sure appreciates building for the future, he sure as heck wants to win right now and Soriano helps him. I don’t think this will effect the budget much because if Hal wants a player or he agrees with Cash that a certain player is needed, he will spend the $$.

  3. Betsy January 15th, 2011 at 3:42 pm

    Oops, anyway I think it’s discomforting to think that Cash and his owners are not on the same page (clearly they don’t value draft picks as much as Cash does). Again, though, since I feel that Cash has made several mistakes recently (not trading for Haren, assuming Lee was in the bag), it’s not like I can say for sure that Cash was right in desiring to hold onto the pick.

  4. ConcernedCitizen January 15th, 2011 at 3:42 pm

    (Responding to the last thread) “Kyle Farnsworth” is still the punchline of many jokes around here when my friends come over to watch baseball. Reading his name on a Yankees blog again made me chuckle.

  5. blake January 15th, 2011 at 3:45 pm

    Betsy,

    I think Boston is the best team right now based on the potential in their rotation, but its not by as much as it seems and that could change before the season starts depending on what else the Yankees are able to do.

  6. DaSaint007 January 15th, 2011 at 3:47 pm

    one word….Nice.

    Would love to see many of them make it to the big house, but realistically over the next 3 seasons there’s probably only room for 3 or maybe 4 of them. hats 3 or 4 out of the 10 or 11 at Trenton or above. Thats the reality.

  7. jacksquat January 15th, 2011 at 3:51 pm

    Wish I could attend some Trenton games.

    Yanks should buy the Isotopes!

  8. Pat M. January 15th, 2011 at 3:52 pm

    blake…..As for Joba Chamberlain, the guys I’ve spoken with who are in baseball business all pretty much say that Joba is best suited for the pen…..I would like to see the club view him as a starter when camp opens however that ship might have sailed for Joba……It would be nice to see 3 under 25 guys in the rotation…..

  9. DaSaint007 January 15th, 2011 at 3:53 pm

    Pat,

    We may see three under 25 guys in the rotation, but it just may not include Joba.

  10. MG January 15th, 2011 at 3:53 pm

    I share none of the concerns many of you do about the Rays because they are essentially the 2011 version of the A’s circa 2000-excellent farm system, good and deep pitching, but no revenue base to sustain the cost of keeping the players once they reach arbitration and beyond.

    The A’s couldn’t keep Tim Hudson, Mark Mulder, Miguel Tejada, Jason Giambi and many others from leaving. They contended a number of times but failed to make it to the World Series with a better roster across the board than the Rays can even conceive. The Rays may be competitive in some years but the thought of them being able to content with the Yankees and Sox on a regular basis just makes no sense, IMO.

  11. DaSaint007 January 15th, 2011 at 3:57 pm

    Would love to see:
    CC, Hughes, AJ, Dellin Betances and Manny Banuelos.
    Rivera, Soriano, Brackman, Robertson, Joba, Nova, Logan

  12. blake January 15th, 2011 at 3:58 pm

    Pat M,

    Yea we will just have to see. I don’t know if he.could do it or not but if there isn’t a medical/health related reason not to then Id like for them to make sure and I would like to see Joba himself want to make sure before its the pen for good.

  13. MG January 15th, 2011 at 4:00 pm

    Pat M, why do you think scouts consider Chamberlain a reliever as opposed to a starter?

    To me, he is the same pitcher either way-very inconsistent from game to game with high highs and low lows. Given all that I would think the best thing to do is put him in a situation where he can learn his craft without any pressure-like as a starter in the minors. He’s still young and there is plenty of time left for him to ‘get it’ if he has the desire. What do you think?

  14. Chuck58 January 15th, 2011 at 4:00 pm

    “Gordon” Stoneburner? Hmmm…. :-)

  15. blake January 15th, 2011 at 4:03 pm

    MG,

    as I was informed yesterday, I don’t think they can send Joba to the minors without sending him through waivers first.

  16. Doreen January 15th, 2011 at 4:03 pm

    Isn’t it Graham?

  17. EA January 15th, 2011 at 4:05 pm

    Hope we can keep Soriano for more than a year.

    Very deep closers market next year – Bell, Papelbon, Broxton, Capps, K-Rod. (I suspect some of these guys who had bad years this year will bounce back in their contract years and have good numbers)

    Valverde, Nathan, Lidge, Cordero all have team options for big $$$.

    Fuentes/Rauch could also find themselves there if they take 1-yr deals this year.

  18. Chuck58 January 15th, 2011 at 4:05 pm

    Hi, Doreen! Yes, it’s Graham. Chad missed it, but got it right later in the same piece :-)

  19. MG January 15th, 2011 at 4:06 pm

    blake January 15th, 2011 at 4:03 pm
    MG,

    as I was informed yesterday, I don’t think they can send Joba to the minors without sending him through waivers first.
    ———————————-
    that explains a lot for me, thanks Blake. It’s doubtful the Yankees would put both Joba and Nova in the rotation at the same time after the results in 2008 and he wouldn’t clear waivers.

  20. BoJo January 15th, 2011 at 4:07 pm

    MG–

    Good analogy. 2000 A’s

  21. blake January 15th, 2011 at 4:08 pm

    MG,

    I didn’t know it either and suggested that yesterday ;) I can’t keep up with all the transaction rules there are…

  22. Jerkface January 15th, 2011 at 4:09 pm

    The only thing that would make any sense to me to being closed to the possibility of Joba returning to the rotation is the shoulder.

    Unless his shoulder is more torn up now than anyone is letting on, and he literally cannot throw more than 30 pitches+warm up pitches (and those could be endless if he gets up and sits down multiple times), then I don’t think its the tendonitis that is making him a reliever.

    Back when he returned from injury in 08, they let him finish the season in the bullpen because he had missed a month and needed some rehab assignments before he could start again and there wasn’t enough time.

    Now he needed to build innings the next season as a starter, and so Cashman stated,”Joba cannot be a reliever because he takes too long to get warmed up now due to his shoulder injury.”

    Suddenly that has changed?

    The reasons being stated by the Yankee brass for Joba relieving is that his “stuff is not the same as a starter” Unfortunately, thats true for every pitcher. Hughes fastball was ridiculous as a reliever. Joba’s fastball as a starter was never going to be 97 all the time. It would be 93-95. Joba is close to that already.

    Just let him start, damn.

  23. BoJo January 15th, 2011 at 4:09 pm

    MG–
    Putting Nova and Joba in rotation at same time is different that Hughes and Kennedy at same time. Joba has 4 years big league experience as well as 30 games started under his belt.

  24. mick January 15th, 2011 at 4:09 pm

    HOW ARE THE RS THE BETTER TEAM ON PAPER?
    Someone please explain. Is this an off the cuff comment or something thought out?
    I thought we compared them and clearly have the better offense.
    Their pitching is suspect. Our pen is clearly better.

  25. Jerkface January 15th, 2011 at 4:11 pm

    To me, he is the same pitcher either way-very inconsistent from game to game with high highs and low lows.

    He had already shown signs of not being a 100% shut down reliever in 08, everyone forgets the 3 run jack to Delucci shortly before he became a starter. Like you said, he is inconsistent in both roles, so I’d rather he be a starter where he is allowed to get in and out of jams.

    Joba gives up 4 runs as a starter its not the end of the world, Joba comes into a game as a reliever and gives up 4 runs he has probably sunk that game.

  26. BoJo January 15th, 2011 at 4:11 pm

    mick January 15th, 2011 at 4:09 pm

    HOW ARE THE RS THE BETTER TEAM ON PAPER?
    ++++++++++++
    What does it matter? The only ones who play the game on paper are fantasy league players.

  27. BoJo January 15th, 2011 at 4:13 pm

    Joba gives up 4 runs as a starter its not the end of the world, Joba comes into a game as a reliever and gives up 4 runs he has probably sunk that game.
    +++++++++++++
    Not only has he sunk that game, but his era for the year will make him llok like he was a total failure.

  28. blake January 15th, 2011 at 4:14 pm

    Mick,

    I think despite those things the questions in the Yankee rotation 3-5 right now gives the edge to Boston as they have risks but pretty good potential in their rotation……of course none of that matters if whoever the Yankees fill in pitches well and Beckett and Lackey repeat their 2010 seasons….but on paper right now I think that’s the reasoning.

  29. mick January 15th, 2011 at 4:14 pm

    Why can’t a GM and his owner disagree?
    Is this just more media fodder that faniots, just made that up, eat up from the media.
    They just fling it out there and the faniots slop it up.
    Let’s call this draft-gate. Give it a name so the faniots can categorize it easily.

  30. LGY January 15th, 2011 at 4:15 pm

    Wait till Mo teaches So the cutter….omg

    ******

    Soriano already has a cutter and if it was so easy to teach there wouldn’t be only one Mo

  31. mick January 15th, 2011 at 4:17 pm

    I think despite those things the questions in the Yankee rotation 3-5 right now gives the edge to Boston
    ===============
    blake
    the rs have their own questions for 3-5, right?
    is their pen as good as ours?
    how about pedroia and youkilis, are they bouncing back like spring chickens.
    this is old news , we have gained since soriano arrived.

  32. upstate kate January 15th, 2011 at 4:17 pm

    At this point in time, the way the team is presently constructed, there is more of a need for a SP. I think Joba would do as well as any pitcher currently available. I would at least hope he gets the opportunity to try.

  33. Tar January 15th, 2011 at 4:17 pm

    “HOW ARE THE RS THE BETTER TEAM ON PAPER?”

    Mick, I can only come up with toilet paper.

  34. mick January 15th, 2011 at 4:18 pm

    Soriano already has a cutter and if it was so easy to teach there wouldn’t be only one Mo
    =================
    I know he has a cutter but it’s not as good as Mo’s was the point.
    Living with Mo can only make him better.

  35. mick January 15th, 2011 at 4:19 pm

    True Tar. On toilet paper they are much better than us.

  36. blake January 15th, 2011 at 4:21 pm

    Mick,

    But didn’t you know that Josh Beckett and John Lackey are going to be aces again in 2011. Besides the fact that they were awful in 2010 there is no reason assume they wont be great.

  37. BoJo January 15th, 2011 at 4:22 pm

    Joba appeared in 73 games last year. In 3 appearances, he gave up 3 runs, in 2 games he gave up 4 runs. Other than that, he was excellent. He would have had a 2.5 ERA

  38. mick January 15th, 2011 at 4:23 pm

    blake

    some people just like to make controversy.
    they are the same ones that criticize the mediots but long to be one, slopping up every bit of bs that’s flung out there then throwing it in our faces like feces and it stinks…

  39. upstate kate January 15th, 2011 at 4:26 pm

    Tar
    :)

  40. Doreen January 15th, 2011 at 4:28 pm

    Hi Chuck58 -

    That’s what I get for skimming – I missed the second mention of the name. :)

  41. Pat M. January 15th, 2011 at 4:28 pm

    BoJo…….I agree that Joba improved significantly in Mid-August and continued as the season closed…..Is there anyway to determine how many inherited runners he allowed to score ???/ It was in those situations that he was least effective…..He’s just so inconsistent to be counted upon every 5th day…….I’d like to think that Tne Yanks would at least look at him in March for the rotation, I just think that’s not going to happen……

  42. blake January 15th, 2011 at 4:29 pm

    There were times last year when Joba kept his front shoulder closed, stayed on top of the ball, and got good extension that he looked like that guy from 2007. Its still on there and pops out front time to time. Its Rothschilds job to get it out all the time…..he was unhittable at times in 2010.

  43. Chuck58 January 15th, 2011 at 4:32 pm

    Folks, anybody know what date is set for Joba’s arbitration hearing? My guess is that he’ll work with Rothschild in ST, maybe see if he’s in the mix for starting, but Cashman doesn’t want to give him any free help for the arb hearing. Same thing lots of people are saying…

  44. Jerkface January 15th, 2011 at 4:32 pm

    Is there anyway to determine how many inherited runners he allowed to score

    pitcher expanded stats on bb-ref. Joba allowed only 24% of his inherited runners to score, which is below league average (which is 28-30%)

  45. Jerkface January 15th, 2011 at 4:33 pm

    Folks, anybody know what date is set for Joba’s arbitration hearing?

    Arbitration hearings are between Feb 1 and Feb 14

  46. BoJo January 15th, 2011 at 4:35 pm

    Pat M–

    He allowed 9 of 37 inherited runners to score…which is on par with what Robertson and Mo did.

    I would think starting suits someone like him more based on your comment. If he gives up 3 runs in a relief outing, he is cooked, but in stating, 3 runs over 6 innings is a quality start.

    I think if the fans keep the pressure up on blogs, the news papers will start writing about Joba starting, and the owners will force Cashman to give him a chance.

  47. Jerkface January 15th, 2011 at 4:36 pm

    One thing to consider for Soriano, he doesn’t pitch multiple innings. In the past 2 years he has only gone above 1 inning three times.

    Mariano Rivera went above 1 inning 5 times last year alone.

  48. Jerkface January 15th, 2011 at 4:37 pm

    10 times in 09.

    So roughly 5 times as much as Soriano over a 2 year period.

  49. Chuck58 January 15th, 2011 at 4:37 pm

    Thanx, Face. Looks like arb hearings wrap up right before Pitchers n Catchers [coincidentally on Valentine's Day - go figure!]

  50. LGY January 15th, 2011 at 4:38 pm

    I know he has a cutter but it’s not as good as Mo’s was the point.Living with Mo can only make him better.

    ********

    What is Mos sweat going to rub off on Soriano and make his cutter better?

  51. Pat M. January 15th, 2011 at 4:39 pm

    Face….28-30 % is pretty dismal…..A better question is the % for late inning guys, let’s say 7 through the 9th innings…….Because 24 % is rather poor if your a set-up guy….

  52. BoJo January 15th, 2011 at 4:41 pm

    For the life of me, I really have no idea why the Yankees can say that Joba was terrible as a 23 year old in 2009. His stats before the Joba rules were on course to be outstanding for a first full year starter.

    If they were prepared to let him compete for a job in ST 2010, then why not now? I don’t buy any such trask about shoulder worries…he is fully matured physically now, and age 25 is when you let the starters throw full out.

  53. BoJo January 15th, 2011 at 4:45 pm

    Pat M. January 15th, 2011 at 4:39 pm

    Face….28-30 % is pretty dismal…..A better question is the % for late inning guys, let’s say 7 through the 9th innings…….Because 24 % is rather poor if your a set-up guy….
    ++++++++++++
    Hard to compare to Mo actually…3 of 19 for 19%, yet Mo really doesn’t come in that often with runners on anymore.

    Benoit was outstanding in 2010 with a 9% but before that he was typiclaly in the 20s

  54. BoJo January 15th, 2011 at 4:48 pm

    Soriano was at 55% allowing 6 of 11 inherited runners to score in 2010 but 0% in 2009–holding 5 runners from scoring.

    I’m not crazy about the stat. Fluctuates a lot…

  55. Pat M. January 15th, 2011 at 4:48 pm

    BoJo……I guess the real question is can Joba deliver 6 innings

  56. BoJo January 15th, 2011 at 4:48 pm

    Pat M. January 15th, 2011 at 4:48 pm

    BoJo……I guess the real question is can Joba deliver 6 innings
    ++++++++++++
    It will be hard to tell if they start him in the 6th.

  57. Jerkface January 15th, 2011 at 4:49 pm

    Face….28-30 % is pretty dismal…..A better question is the % for late inning guys, let’s say 7 through the 9th innings…….Because 24 % is rather poor if your a set-up guy….

    You make me do a lot of work, pat.

    Rivera career: 29%
    Papelbon career: 21%
    Thornton: 30%
    Soriano: 29%
    Hoffman: 20%
    Wagner: 28%
    K-rod: 33%

    Want me to keep going??? You’re talking about pitchers who are coming in and literally the only way they can stop runners from scoring is to strike guys out. And no one is guaranteed a strike out. Mariano mostly gets weak contact, so if he comes into a situation with a propensity for runners on 3rd base then he may allow them to score by getting the out.

    A better way to look at it would be by situation. How many times does a guy come into bases loaded and hold them to 1 run or less?

  58. BoJo January 15th, 2011 at 4:49 pm

    And frankly Pat–if he throws 1 hit ball for 5 innings and gives up 0 to 2 runs, I would be very happy with that at #4 or #5 slot.

  59. Jerkface January 15th, 2011 at 4:50 pm

    BoJo……I guess the real question is can Joba deliver 6 innings

    He did it often enough in 2009.

  60. Jerkface January 15th, 2011 at 4:51 pm

    16 of Joba’s non-limited 24 starts he pitched into the 6th inning.

    WHAT MORE DOES EVERYONE WANT?!?!?!

  61. Tar January 15th, 2011 at 4:51 pm

    Somebody mentioned it earlier, I think it’s worth repeating.

    Why would the Yankees announce Joba as a possible starter candidate, before any Arb. hearing.

    I can not think of a beneficial reason for the team to announce it. IMO If they are considering it, we wont hear about it until they come to an agreement.

  62. BoJo January 15th, 2011 at 4:52 pm

    I would much prefer Joba having a coach who tells him to go out and blow away the side even if his 100 pitches only take him thru 4…rather than Eiland trying to make him into a pitch to contact pitcher who must go 6 or 7 innings and throw 91-92 with assortment of junk.

    I want the next coach to make him back into the power pitcher he was….I can live with him gaining endurance over the next few years.

  63. BoJo January 15th, 2011 at 4:53 pm

    Jerkface–absolutely, but I don’t care even if he only goes 4 or 5 innings…He’ll learn to get more efficient over time. I can live with Mitre following him for 3

  64. Pat M. January 15th, 2011 at 4:54 pm

    Face….Thank you for the research, and now make that call to Cashman…..We all know Cashman will not take Randy’s call

  65. BoJo January 15th, 2011 at 4:54 pm

    I think we need to somehow start a petition to Cshman and Hal and Hank demanding Joba be put in rotation again.

  66. jpb173 January 15th, 2011 at 4:55 pm

    Another name to add to the list: Christofer Cabrera, who pitched as a 17 year old for the DSL Yankees-1. He’s young but very talented. I expect that he will pitch for the GCL Yankees this year.

    http://web.minorleaguebaseball.....pid=593474

  67. Tar January 15th, 2011 at 4:57 pm

    I want the next coach to make him back into the power pitcher he was….”

    I agree. I believe that is where his trouble started.

  68. YsGuy January 15th, 2011 at 4:57 pm

    the yankees young crop of pitchers have put up some eye-catching #’s in the minors, but one thing that jumps out at you is how little experience they have. the 3 b’s plus noesi and mitchell have only 6 aaa starts among them. they are still gonna take some time to produce.

  69. upstate kate January 15th, 2011 at 4:59 pm

    what I want from Joba:
    1. stop nibbling
    2. pitch fast, don’t wander around the mound and shake off the catcher
    3. go after the batter when you are ahead, don’t keep throwing that slider in the dirt that everyone knows is coming

  70. Doreen January 15th, 2011 at 5:00 pm

    Jerkface -

    I had always wanted Joba to be a starter. When he lost the spot in the rotation to Hughes last spring, I wanted them to send him down to AAA to start, figuring at some point he’d be a starter back in NY. When they didn’t, I just shrugged my shoulders. It ain’t up to us.

    I do think the thing with Joba was not the results, but watching him pitch. It was often disconcerting. The shaking off, the long counts, the walks.

    I thought with the exception of a couple of really, really bad appearances (which skewed perception), Joba did a good job out of the pen last year. Maybe not great, but certainly good.

    But still and all, I’d rather they give Joba a shot than pick someone else up off the junk heap. If you’re gonna give someone like that a shot, why not one of your own?

    However, I agree with Tar. If any change in Joba’s status is going to be made, they’re not going to publicize it until after the arbitration hearing. They’re not going to even approach Joba until after the arbitration hearing. It may not be fair or even smart, but it’s the business side rearing its ugly head once again.

    I like your take on the inherited runners stat, by the way. There’s more to it, situation-wise.

  71. Tar January 15th, 2011 at 5:02 pm

    what I want from Joba:

    Bust em:

    Buckle em:

    And freeze em:

    I’m a poet :D

  72. Jerkface January 15th, 2011 at 5:02 pm

    Why would the Yankees announce Joba as a possible starter candidate, before any Arb. hearing.

    I brought this up a day or two ago, and I hope its the case. Its what I would do.

  73. raymagnetic January 15th, 2011 at 5:21 pm

    “Possesses a durable frame and the ability to consistently throw in the mid-90s with an exceptional curve ball among an assortment of pitches • Didn’t pitch during the fall, but continued to earn the respect of his teammates, leading during practices and offseason conditioning • Will be counted on for both his abilities and leadership in 2006.”

    People have been posting a lot of stuff about how Chamberlain is lazy and this and that. The above is a post about Chamberlain while he was in college. Am I to believe that he suddenly became lazy all of a sudden when he became a professional?

    I posted Sherman’s blurb yesterday about how the Yankees don’t view Chamberlain as lazy and yet the same lazy posters keep talking about how Joba’s not motivated and he’s lazy and whatever.

    I’ve yet to find one story from a Yankee insider saying Chamberlain is lazy or anything of the sort and I’ve been searching.

  74. 86w183 January 15th, 2011 at 5:24 pm

    I don’t blame Eiland for Joba becoming a “nibbler” as a starter. He was constantly shaking off his catcher and going from fastballs to curves/sliders.

    If he wants to be a starter I’d give him the chance, but I’d also tell him to shut up and throw the pitch that’s called for. Then I’d tell the catchers 2/3 fastballs, 1/3 breaking balls.

    The Yankees future role for Joba has nothing to do with arbitration. It’s not even allowed to be mentioned in the hearing. It’s ONLY about performance, experience and comparable salaries for similar players.

  75. 86w183 January 15th, 2011 at 5:26 pm

    raymagnetic —

    Great post. Joba has a body type than many look at and assume he’s overweight. He’s a big boy, plain and simple.

  76. Stoneburner January 15th, 2011 at 5:34 pm

    Interesting, interesting, interesting – could it be that the league has adjusted to Joba’s predictable pitching pattern and slider – Joba is a professional and a grown man – he should be able to adjust at the major league level – if not – well . . . .

    Yanks sign Soriano for 11 million plus – could have had Kerry Woods for same amount if offered arbitration – but that was back when the plan was Cliff Lee so offering salary arb could have messed up that plan and also resigning Pettitte – amazing how things and plans change as the offseason evolves.

    In any event – a key piece of the team – the transition from starter to Mo is more than stabilized – still feeling a July power trade for John Danks looming IF ChiSox are out of it – please note that Danks has not signed an extension yet – and will be a FA after the ’12 season – good rapport w/ Kenny Williams

  77. DaSaint007 January 15th, 2011 at 5:36 pm

    upstate kate January 15th, 2011 at 4:59 pm
    what I want from Joba:
    1. stop nibbling
    2. pitch fast, don’t wander around the mound and shake off the catcher
    3. go after the batter when you are ahead, don’t keep throwing that slider in the dirt that everyone knows is coming
    —————————————–

    Kate,

    Couldn’t agree more. I’m hoping that Joba and the rest of this pen become lights out relievers. Strike one, strike two, strike three. Next.
    Much like the years when Stanton and Nelson were setting up for Mariano. Dominant.

  78. Betsy January 15th, 2011 at 5:37 pm

    Bojo, I think you’re putting too much blame on the Joba rules. Ok, so he had his innings limited- that doesn’t really excuse him for being so poor. Why didn’t he go out there in his allotted innings and just let it fly? Instead, he was painful to watch. This is more on him than it is the Yankees.

    Jerkface, Cashman’s comment about Joba’s stuff being better in the pen was asinine as everyone’s stuff is better there. Phil had great stuff in the pen; as a starter, it’s just good. Why don’t we hear that Phil is better in the pen? I don’t get it…….Joba has more pitches than Phil does, so technically it should be Joba who is better suited as a starter.

    It’s just annoying now to hear all these mediots and so called pundits and scouts saying the Yankees messed Joba up. Clowns. When he was starting, they said Joba should be in the pen. Now they say he should be a starter. I get it – no matter what the Yankees do, these clowns will say they did wrong.

  79. Betsy January 15th, 2011 at 5:38 pm

    I don’t trust Joba in the pen at all – I don’t think he was very good. Maybe a very few times he had blow away stuff, but not nearly enough to think he’s ever going to be consistent. Neither he nor Robertson are up to the EIG job and that’s why Soriano is here

  80. Betsy January 15th, 2011 at 5:40 pm

    Sherman’s also the guy who trashed Phil by saying he had a lousy work ethic…….

  81. DaSaint007 January 15th, 2011 at 5:40 pm

    Betsy, you’re beating a dead horse. It doesn’t matter if Joba or Robertson are up to the EIG job, as you put it. Soriano has that job. All Robertson and Joba have to do – at this point – is be up to the 7th and 6th inning jobs so to speak.

    Do you think they can handle that? If so, they’re as accomplished as anyone else for their required roles.

  82. Tar January 15th, 2011 at 5:41 pm

    “The Yankees future role for Joba has nothing to do with arbitration.”

    While this may be technically accurate (not sure), wouldn’t avoiding a hearing altogether be beneficial to both sides?

    If I was Joba and the Yankees ask me to be ready to start, I would have to think my value to the team is worth more. Just adds unnecessary complications to what I am sure is going to be a tense negotiation.

  83. Betsy January 15th, 2011 at 5:41 pm

    I’m eager to see how Rothschild effects all our pitchers…………except for CC, they could all use help.

  84. Betsy January 15th, 2011 at 5:42 pm

    DaSaint, what’s your point? I know that………I’m saying that I don’t trust Joba in the pen…period. Neither did the Yankees and that’s why he was put in low leverage situations, where he did ok…….

  85. Betsy January 15th, 2011 at 5:45 pm

    I’d like to see if Rothschild can get Phil to pitch inside. I forget which game it was, but one Yankee got hit while Phil was on the mound and Phil didn’t try to brush anyone back. People wanted Joba to come in and do the dirty work. A pitcher (we all got on Mussina for not doing this) has to have his hitters’ backs. Yet Nova, a greenhorn, had no issue throwing inside to the Jays in his debut.

    I’d like to see Joba stop shaking the catcher off – but Phil had an issue with that as well, I believe. At this point in their careers, they should throw what the C says…………and this is one reason why I’m glad Montero is not the primary catcher. A kid catching kids?

  86. Jerkface January 15th, 2011 at 5:51 pm

    The Yankees future role for Joba has nothing to do with arbitration. It’s not even allowed to be mentioned in the hearing. It’s ONLY about performance, experience and comparable salaries for similar players.

    Comparable salaries for similar players has everything to do with his future role. If he is going in as a starting pitcher versus a middle reliever.

  87. GreenBeret7 January 15th, 2011 at 5:52 pm

    Not trying to sharpshoot Chad on his list, because he does a great job, but, Lance Pendleton was lost to Houston in the Rule 5 Draft. I think that Heyer will move imto the Trenton rotation, at least for now.

  88. DaSaint007 January 15th, 2011 at 5:54 pm

    Names I’d still be keeping tabs on based on their contract terms & salary requirements:

    Alfredo Aceves (28)
    Jon Rauch (32) – Type B, not offered arb
    Justin Duchscherer (33)
    Freddy Garcia (35)
    Jose Veras (30)

    I still think it would be prudent to sign a FA starter AND another FA reliever.

  89. Jerkface January 15th, 2011 at 5:54 pm

    but, Lance Pendleton was lost to Houston in the Rule 5 Draft.

    He mentions this in the article, and I guess is assuming they won’t hold onto him.

  90. Jerkface January 15th, 2011 at 5:55 pm

    From Chad’s article: “For now, I’ve projected a Scranton rotation that includes Pendleton, a Rule 5 pick currently hoping to win a spot in the Astros rotation.”

  91. Nick in SF January 15th, 2011 at 5:57 pm

    “16 of Joba’s non-limited 24 starts he pitched into the 6th inning. WHAT MORE DOES EVERYONE WANT?!?!?!”

    17 would have been nice.

  92. DaSaint007 January 15th, 2011 at 6:00 pm

    My ideal bullpen for 2011:
    Mariano, Soriano, Rauch, Robertson, Logan, Feliciano, Aceves/Nova/Duchscherer

    My ideal rotation for 2011:
    CC, Hughes, AJ, Pettitte, Joba

  93. Chad Jennings January 15th, 2011 at 6:02 pm

    I actually agree with you GB. From the post:

    “For now, I’ve projected a Scranton rotation that includes Pendleton, a Rule 5 pick currently hoping to win a spot in the Astros rotation… Craig Heyer, who was sent to the Arizona Fall League and has worked as both a starter and reliever, could fit into the Trenton rotation at some point, especially if Pendleton sticks with Houston.”

    Not to knock Pendleton, but it’s always difficult for a Rule 5 pick to actually stick on a big league roster. Most end up back with their original team, that’s why I have Pendleton in these projections.

  94. blake January 15th, 2011 at 6:03 pm

    DaSaint,

    Man that looks good. If Andy comes back Id let Nova and Joba duke it out in ST for that 5th spot.

  95. GreenBeret7 January 15th, 2011 at 6:05 pm

    Sorry, Chad. I guess I shouldn’t allow my dog “Killer” read for me. He tends to skim over the best stuff. My apologies and I’ll send “Killer” to the timeout corner.

  96. DaSaint007 January 15th, 2011 at 6:07 pm

    That would be ideal, blake. Joba v Nova would make for an interesting ST.

    NYY would have a lock down pen, with power arms, three of which are capable of closing games, good lefty arms, and Aceves or Duchscherer capable of being the long man or spot starting, which is now Mitre’s role. Unfortunately, I’d either release, trade or move him to AAA.

  97. theREALkevin January 15th, 2011 at 6:07 pm

    Trenton rotation looks awesome.

  98. Chad Jennings January 15th, 2011 at 6:08 pm

    Not a problem, GB. These posts are really thick with a ton of text. I wish they were more reader friendly, but I haven’t figured out a way to create a snapshot that’s easier to read and still captures all of the information. It’s easy to miss stuff in this sort of post.

  99. mick January 15th, 2011 at 6:09 pm

    I ask again: Is this the best crop of pitching prospects we have ever had?

  100. DaSaint007 January 15th, 2011 at 6:09 pm

    The longer that Soriano went unsigned, the more likely I thought that the Yankees could sign him. I feel the same way about Rauch. There aren’t many closing opportunities left, and frankly the twins are expecting a healthy Nathan back, so Rauch’s days of closing there are over, so he may as well consider a middle relief option on a 1 year deal.

  101. GreenBeret7 January 15th, 2011 at 6:10 pm

    Pat M., this was the numbers on the Yankees and their inherited runner/inherited runners scored for the top four Yankee bullpenners in 2010.

    inherited runners/scored in 2010

    Rivera 3-16
    Robertson 10-32
    Chamberlain 9-39
    Logan 8-33

  102. blake January 15th, 2011 at 6:14 pm

    Yea if the 09 Aceves was there than that would be great….Mitre is pretty decent in that role and if given a regular job I think he might be even better. That would be a really good and pretty deep staff when you consider the depth at Scranton

  103. blake January 15th, 2011 at 6:16 pm

    Chad, really nice job with this organizational depth chart series….I’ve enjoyed it.

  104. DaSaint007 January 15th, 2011 at 6:18 pm

    MLBTR.com:
    The Angels have agreed to sign Manny Ramirez to a one-year contract, tweets ESPN Deportes’ Enrique Rojas (link in Spanish). The deal is expected to be around $4MM

  105. blake January 15th, 2011 at 6:21 pm

    Manny to the Angels means one less suitor for Vlad…..

  106. GreenBeret7 January 15th, 2011 at 6:22 pm

    One curious pitcher to watch in Tampa this coming season is Josh Romanski. In his first year of pitching after getting released by Milwaukee as an outfielder/DH and then got hurt. Still rough around the edges but, he has a winner’s mentality. Good off speed and breaking stuff, not a great fastball, but, it should pick up with cleaner mechanics and arm strength.

    http://www.baseball-reference......mans001jos

    Manny Barreda should be back in Cgarleston to start the season. One the small side at and about 160 pounds5’11″. Not sure if he’ll start or be in the pen, though.

  107. Nick in SF January 15th, 2011 at 6:23 pm

    Always trust content from Enrique Rojas.

  108. 108 stitches January 15th, 2011 at 6:23 pm

    Hello !!!!

    No matter how it’s sliced the Yankees still need at least one more seasoned / proven starter in the rotation, Andy or no Andy.
    Best to allow pitchers like Phelps, Mitchell, and Noesi to bide time for the better part of one year at AAA before throwing them to the fire.

  109. GreenBeret7 January 15th, 2011 at 6:24 pm

    Manny Barreda should be back in ***Charleston*** to start the season. ***On*** the small side at about 160 pounds5’11?. Not sure if he’ll start or be in the pen, though.

  110. Nick in SF January 15th, 2011 at 6:25 pm

    Or maybe I’m thinking of Cookie Rojas.

    :arrow:

  111. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2011 at 6:49 pm

    Tar January 15th, 2011 at 5:02 pm
    what I want from Joba:

    Bust em:

    Buckle em:

    And freeze em:

    I’m a poet

    ///
    Works for me. And it worked for Joba in 2008 and some of 2009.

  112. BoJo January 15th, 2011 at 6:52 pm

    Bruce Chen is off the board.

    Will Rauch go to Tampa?

  113. Mell January 15th, 2011 at 8:11 pm

    “There aren’t many closing opportunities left, and frankly the twins are expecting a healthy Nathan back, so Rauch’s days of closing there are over,”

    Rauch’s days of closing ended when Matt Capps went to the Twins.

  114. brianlopez22 January 15th, 2011 at 8:17 pm

    I love the posts that move Nova to a long relief role. Nova is 24 and has nasty stuff. He has also shown that he has a starter’s demeanor.

    Betances and Banuelos are not ready yet and are probably 6 and 7th to get a shot at the #5 spot.

    Our minor leagues have some serious potential to get another starter to the majors.
    The Yanks shouldn’t have a competition for the 5th spot, but for the 5th, 6th, and 7th spots. Because, innings limits will require at least a split of the year.

    Anyway, spring training will be very interesting. I would like to give all 10 (AA and AAA) starters a chance to win those 3 spots.

    I mean, I’d rather have Andy, but that doesn’t seem likely.

  115. Samuel January 15th, 2011 at 9:34 pm

    Not a big deal, but Shaeffer Hall went to Kansas, not Florida State. He also was one of two pitchers in 2008 to no-hit the Air Force Academy. The other?

    Stephen Strasburg.

    Guess which of those two hurlers will throw more innings in 2011?

    Also, Josh Romanski was not a OF/DH with Milwaukee but only hit because his arm issue prevented him from pitching and since he was a pretty good hitter he asked to hit in a few games. His elbow was too sore after those few games that he was shelved for the season.

    In college, Romanski was the second starter at San Diego Univ behind Brian Matusz. Something about Romanski as he appears to be a nice kid, but something tells me he does not get along with teammates.


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