Pinch hitting: Brandon Courter
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Pinch hitters on Jan 19, 2011 
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Up next in our Pinch Hitters series is Brandon Courter, a 25-year-old who describes himself as a “Yankee fan who appreciates great intellectual conversation about baseball rather than the infamous ‘Boston sucks because we don’t like them.’” That said, Courter says, “I still dislike Boston and the Mets, quite a lot.” For his guest post, Brandon looked at this winter’s top two free agent position players and determined that the Yankees will be glad they never got seriously involved in those negotiations.
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Jayson Werth and Carl Crawford.
These two free agents signed some impressive contracts this off-season, starting with the albatross deal bestowed upon Jayson Werth. Werth was a late bloomer, becoming a regular with Philadelphia in 2007. Since then, his slash line is .282/.380/.506 with an OPS+ of 131. These are impressive numbers, which lead me to believe the annual value Jayson Werth received was fair. (7 yr, 126MM = 18MM/year)
The year part of the contract is where it starts to get a bit dicey. Jayson will play his age 32 season this year, the first year in his mega deal. If we dig deeper into the numbers, it turns out that players usually get worse as they get older (let’s not tell Barry Bonds this) – in fact, if you look at the single season leaders in OPS+ , the highest age in the top thirty is 38, by Ted Williams.
I’ve decided to remove Barry Bonds, as anyone can see a drug-induced superstar in their late 30’s can cause the data to skew just a bit. If we dig deeper, Babe Ruth had an amazing season at age 36, and that’s about it. While these players are far beyond what Jayson Werth can do, the point is driven home clearly: After 35, it’s a complete crap-shoot what you’re going to get.
Yankee fans, remember Bernie Williams and his drive off the cliff of productiveness?
Next example: Carl Crawford, the golden boy of the Rays, an exciting player, fast, dynamic, and… not that good.
Say what?
Carl Crawford is the first player in MLB history to receive a nine-figure contract without a 20 home run season. In fact, as early as an injury filled season in 2008, he was BELOW average.
Carl Crawford may have just gotten lucky. This year he had a campaign similar to Werth in performance – OPS+ of 134, in line with what Werth has had the past few years. The problem here is that Crawford did it once – before this year, his previous best was 117, a noticeable tick below the numbers Werth displayed.
Crawford has a great glove and excellent speed, which means that he should age fairly well, which is a great sign for Boston. Even better, Crawford is only entering his age 29 season. In a worst case scenario, Boston has a player comparable to Johnny Damon in his prime – a very good player, just not one worth so much money!
Regardless, Yankee fans should rejoice. Cashman did not stomp the panic button and hurt us with bad contracts for years to come. Give it a few years, we’ll be the ones smiling in the end. Go Yanks!
Associated Press photo of Crawford
well said…
mlbtraderumors Indians, Choo Continue Discussing Multiyear Deal http://bit.ly/h3JFf9 #mlb
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Probably discussing whether it will be the Yankees or Red Sox that give it to him.
Very nice post.
NickSwisher Took over my wifes dressing room @ the #betterwithyou taping last night. Had a great time. Real cool cast & crew. http://twitpic.com/3qbwcg
cgrand14 The first video of my trip to New Zealand. Check it out. http://fb.me/RVBa8SUz
Erin-
I lived in NZ for a year. CG is a lucky Man to get that chance.
Great people, and beautiful scenery.
I do think they will always prefer Rugby though.
Oh. And I almost forgot. GREAT beer.
good post Brandon
I agree, sometimes the deals and trades that don’t get done are the smartest
Erin
I have the DVR set for better with you
Here are the two critiques I have with this argument:
Regarding Werth:
The Nationals were in a position where they had to overpay. They haven’t been a good team, haven’t had a great turnout at the gates and their new ownership is trying to change that culture around. They tried and failed on Tex, tried and failed on Holliday – they knew that to succeed in getting a premier FA to come to Washington they were going to have to grossly overpay – and that’s exactly what they did. Other teams have done it too – the Mets with Beltran and Pedro; the Yankees with Key and Gallego. It’s one of those moves you know will probably burn you at some point but you have to make so that other free agents start taking you seriously.
It wouldn’t shock me at all, given this signing, if next year we hear that Washington is in the mix for Prince or Gonzo or maybe even Pujols.
On Crawford:
Carl Crawford is the first player in MLB history to receive a nine-figure contract without a 20 home run season.
While factually correct the line is also misleading since HRs haven’t been a major part of Crawford’s game.
Teams are starting to put as much value on athletic ability and defense as they have been on thumpers. For Boston this deal made a lot of sense for a few reasons:
1. As the author points out – it worked out very well for them with Johnny Damon
2. Lingering health issues surrounding Jacoby Ellsbury and Mike Cameron in the OF and tablesetters Ellsbury and Pedroia at the plate
3. They’re banking on the fact that his power has improved in recent years and are hoping that the trend continues to the point that they have a very dynamic threat in the 3 spot in their lineup.
On another note – it sounds like the Andruw Jones deal will get hammered out today with Boras in town for the Soriano presser.
My guess is he gets a deal similar to the one Thames signed with the Dodgers: 1yr $1mil plus some incentives based on ABs.
MTU,
I answered you in the last thread, however, it said nothing of any importance.
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Nice post by our Guest this morning.
I really like Better With You
MTU January 19th, 2011 at 9:27 am
Oh. And I almost forgot. GREAT beer.
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LOL
SAS, Horseheads is about 60 miles due west of Binghamton, NY…… 15 miles east of Corning, NY….about 4 miles from the NY/Pa border.
MTU……….man, that ‘s a tough question. Having lived in Denver for several years on two occasions, I would have no problem going back there, but at the same time, I think I’d really like somewhere in the coastal mid Atlantic area. Yet at the same time, I enjoyed my five years in KC and would have no problem returning there.
upstate kate January 19th, 2011 at 9:28 am
Erin
I have the DVR set for better with you
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kate, you’ll have to let me know how you like it. I’m not sure exactly when Swisher’s episode is airing-I think sometime in February. It’s always good to have a Yankee on your show during February sweeps.
Chip,
I agree. While Im glad the Yankees aren’t paying Werth that contract, it was it some ways a necessary evil for the Nats if they wanted to take their franchise to the next level. If they kept offering big money to players it was inevitable that sooner or later someone would say yes.
yeah but Chip I don’t think Werth is actually a premier player…a very good player perhaps, but not one to build a franchise around.
I like Better With You, too. Fun show.
****
Erin -
Thanks for linking Curtis’ video. He’s so polished.
*****
As for the post – I guess the market dictates the contracts, and that fluctuates from year to year.
# upstate kate January 19th, 2011 at 9:34 am
yeah but Chip I don’t think Werth is actually a premier player…a very good player perhaps, but not one to build a franchise around.
——————————————
I’m still trying to figure out how he got that much money
JCPD,
I hope you will be happy at your new location. At least you won’t have to live out of a suitcase. Corning is home….right???
You will probably be moved to FL in the height of summer or maybe Phoenix. Then come winter some winter wonderland where you don’t see grass for months on end. I hope you get your wish..
Have they fixed the Southern Tier Expressway out by Horseheads yet?
I lived out that way for 5 years and drove through HH quite often. And I hated driving through it. Speed trap.
upstate kate January 19th, 2011 at 9:34 am
yeah but Chip I don’t think Werth is actually a premier player…a very good player perhaps, but not one to build a franchise around.
———————-
I agree – but he was one of the three best players available and so to make their club relevant to FA’s they had so do this deal.
There’s no way on Earth he’ll live up to the expectations of this contract – but if signing him gets other players – better players – to take the Nats seriously when they make contract offers then Washington will consider it a major victory.
Milton Bradley got arrested. Who really believes this guy is worth the trouble?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/bba_mariners_bradley
blake January 19th, 2011 at 9:34 am
Chip,
I agree. While Im glad the Yankees aren’t paying Werth that contract, it was it some ways a necessary evil for the Nats if they wanted to take their franchise to the next level. If they kept offering big money to players it was inevitable that sooner or later someone would say yes.
———————
Yup, and like I said – while Werth’s production will never reach the value of that contract (I’m sure his power will drop going from Citizen’s Bank to National’s Park) if his signing gets another player – Fielder for example – to join him next year then the Nats will be thrilled.
JCPD-
Well, you have plenty of time to think about it.
I was just curious in case they decide to grant your wish someday.
Me. I’d go with either the Mid-Atlantic, or Colorado.
No locations in Ute-land thus far, or you KNOW what I would have said.
point taken Chip…at the very least the Nats have shown they are not content to be cellar dwellers
Erica -
The Cubs – they’re the ones who gave him that stupid contract in the first place.
Goes to show – people will talk about character on and on but if you’re able to play someone will sign you – character be hanged.
Still lacking a No. 3 or 4 starter either through a sensible trade or the best ready prospects.
It was another era but the likes of Whitey Ford, Ralph Terry, Roland Sheldon, Bill Stafford, Mel Stottlemyre and others made early contributions to Yankee success. If done right then Ivan Nova, Hector Noesi, and David Phelps can do the same.
108-
“if done right”.
Let’s see it. We’re all waiting. Do they know how ? Have the necessary patience ?
We’re about to find out. Most will probably go in trade is my bet.
What time is Soriano press conference and will it be televised?
Kate -
I would rather have my ownership invest like that and try to bring relevance to my team than ownership like the Royals where every dollar they save is considered a victory.
It’s a joke that KC’s management has said that they’re not going to up their payroll from where it stands now (projected around $30 mil) but instead they’re going to invest more money in scouting.
Erica in NY January 19th, 2011 at 9:40 am
Milton Bradley got arrested. Who really believes this guy is worth the trouble?
++++++++++++++++
Does Milton Bradley have a Monopoly on Risk, or will he ever get a Clue?
Good morning all.
Nice article Brandon.
Chip–I agree with his basic point, which is I’m glad the Yankees did not sign these two!
Bojo-
Well the way he’s goin’ he better have a “get out of jail free” card.
I used to travel to Horse Heads for business. Wish I knew about the speed trap before I got the first 2 tickets.
Shopping at the Champion outlet made the trip worthwhile though.
____________________________________________________________________
craigcalcaterra Steroids available at Amazon.com? Cool! Can I get free Super Saver shipping? http://tinyurl.com/6dht7ae
SI_JoeLemire Dais at Yankee Stadium is full w/8 nametags for R. Soriano presser at 10 a.m. Trost, Levine, Cashman, Girardi, Boras and others
BoJo January 19th, 2011 at 9:54 am
Good morning all.
Nice article Brandon.
Chip–I agree with his basic point, which is I’m glad the Yankees did not sign these two!
—————-
Eh, I could see the merit to signing Crawford and dealing Gardner for pitching help. Heck, even without Crawford available I could still see the merit to dealing Gardner for pitching help.
MTU January 19th, 2011 at 9:50 am
108-
“if done right”.
Let’s see it. We’re all waiting. Do they know how ? Have the necessary patience ?
We’re about to find out. Most will probably go in trade is my bet.
+++++++++++++++++
As discussed a few days ago,a key to those young arms being developed likely was the pitching coaches the Yankees had at the time…Johnny Sain and Eddie Lopat.
I don’t think Eiland was anywhere near those guys in terms of talent, and I hope Rothschild is. To me, that will be the difference.
Carl Crawford below average? He is nowhere close to even being average with the bat, let alone his total value with defense and baserunning. He is either the best or second best LF in baseball, along with our own Brett Gardner. If you believe in the Wins Above Replacement stat, which counts total value (offense, defense, etc.) toward creating more wins than a truly league-average player, Crawford was worth 6.9 WAR this past season, good for a tie for 6th best in all of baseball with Bautista, Longoria, and Holliday. In 2009, it was 5.7 WAR, a tie for 14th with Tulowitzki. So he’s truly an awesome player, just not a fit for the Yankees, with Gardner providing far more bang for the buck.
Gardner was a borderline All-Star as much as Swisher was, and got little recognition for it. If he bounces back from the wrist injury and hits even close to how well he did in the first half of last year all season, we’ll have an awesome player on our hands, up there with Crawford. As it is, even with his second-half slump in terms of average and power, Brett was still getting on base enough, stealing bases, and running down balls in the gap to produce 5.4 WAR for the year, good for 19th best in the majors. According to Fangraphs, he was worth $21.6 mil on the open market in 2010, but we’re paying him less than half a mil a year.
I just don’t think Crawford is much better than any of the 3 Yankees outfielders, let alone for that kind of cash.
assuming this presser wont be on espn news or mlb network?
Random Proposal:
Angels Get: Brett Gardner and mid range prospect
Yankees get: Ervin Santana
Thoughts?
Chip–
No way the Yankees trade Gardner at that contract with that contribution. And Crawford was never even a consideration.
Do you have a thing against Yankee home-growns (like your Joba comments yesterday)?
Chip January 19th, 2011 at 10:02 am
Random Proposal:
Angels Get: Brett Gardner and mid range prospect
Yankees get: Ervin Santana
Thoughts?
________________
Pass…No thanks!
You know what else you can buy on Amazon?
Uranium Ore: http://www.amazon.com/Images-S.....B000796XXM
The Customer Reviews are worth the read. Very funny.
pinstripes7 January 19th, 2011 at 9:58 am
I just don’t think Crawford is much better than any of the 3 Yankees outfielders, let alone for that kind of cash.
—————-
The main issue I have isn’t with Crawford – it’s Werth. I understand why he was given the contract he was given – but as a result of that contract what do you think Nick Swisher is going to want when he hits FA in a couple of years?
I like Gardner alot . Love the on base percentage , love the tough at bats . I only wish he was way more aggresive on the base paths 42 steals for a man with his speed is underachieving in my book . . He should have mid 50′s low 60′s in steals
This coming season . .I want to see him get on and just GO !!! . Don’t overthink it Brett get on and use that speed !
Why trade away Gardner for a mid-level starter when you can just put Joba in that spot? Makes little sense IMO.
BTW–could not wish Bradley’s troubles on a more deserving GM than Jack Zduriencik. Karma.
What is “done right” though?
Different eras, different methods, different people.
You can take all the precautions you want and nothing is guaranteed; or conversely you can just throw them out there and let them pitch and have success.
MTU January 19th, 2011 at 9:50 am
108-
“if done right”.
Let’s see it. We’re all waiting. Do they know how ? Have the necessary patience ?
We’re about to find out. Most will probably go in trade is my bet.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And the trade proposals are ?
BoJo January 19th, 2011 at 10:02 am
Chip–
No way the Yankees trade Gardner at that contract with that contribution. And Crawford was never even a consideration.
Do you have a thing against Yankee home-growns (like your Joba comments yesterday)?
———————–
I like Gardner. I explained this once before though – for a team with as many good players as the Yankees have they have very few tradeable assets.
Teams want low priced, established major leaguers – the Yankees have 4: Gardner, Hughes, Joba, Cano.
Hughes and Cano aren’t going anywhere and Joba’s value isn’t high enough right now to generate the kind of return that would help the Yankees – that leaves one tradeable asset on the 25 man – Gardner.
Do I want to trade him? No. But if it can land me a viable starter I would do it and then replace him with either Damon or Podsednik for the year and hope a better option presents itself next offseason or at the deadline.
Steroids are apparently a problem with fire/police departments, especially with respect to their health care coverage being used to purchase same.
Tom in N.J. January 19th, 2011 at 10:03 am
You know what else you can buy on Amazon?
Uranium Ore: http://www.amazon.com/Images-S…..B000796XXM
The Customer Reviews are worth the read. Very funny.
*********************************
Tom-that’s hilarious!
OK Tom, the comments are very clever…but it does beg the question, why are you looking to buy uranium?
BoJo January 19th, 2011 at 10:04 am
Why trade away Gardner for a mid-level starter when you can just put Joba in that spot? Makes little sense IMO.
———————
BoJo – you can’t “just put Joba in that spot” is the problem.
It’s not that simple for a few reasons:
1. The Yankees don’t want him there – either based on performance or fear that his shoulder won’t hold up.
2. If you did put Joba in the rotation he’s going to only be able to go maybe 110 – 130 innings – that’s not enough for a mid rotation guy
Its only “done right” if it works.
Mike Ri January 19th, 2011 at 10:04 am
I like Gardner alot . Love the on base percentage , love the tough at bats . I only wish he was way more aggresive on the base paths 42 steals for a man with his speed is underachieving in my book . . He should have mid 50?s low 60?s in steals
This coming season . .I want to see him get on and just GO !!! . Don’t overthink it Brett get on and use that speed !
——————
I also worry if his hand/wrist issues are going to be a chronic problem.
Doreen January 19th, 2011 at 10:07 am
Steroids are apparently a problem with fire/police departments, especially with respect to their health care coverage being used to purchase same.
——————
In Hollywood too.
Power and plate discipline are classically known as “old man skills” because they hold up well with age. I doubt Crawford ages as well as Werth, his game is based on speed and defense, if he ever loses a step his game will take a big hit. I also think the likelihood of this happening is fairly high considering how many games he played on turf during his career to this point.
Tom in NJ -
“It’s only ‘done right’ if it works.”
Correct.
I wanted to see if I could become spider man?
Thanks for all the good luck wishes guys. The kids are in art class so I have the opportunity to get on my phone.
I am doing an elementary school internship. I’m graduating in December with my bachelors in elementary education so I have to take internships to prepare me for the classroom. I’m with second grade this semester.
I liked this pinch hit post. Let’s hope crawford regresses quickly!
Chip –
I also worry if his hand/wrist issues are going to be a chronic problem.
————————-
I hope not ! … . He was playing so well until that wrist problem occurred
I’ve got the YES Network on and they’re showing a Classic versus the Mets. Sheffield just hit a 2-run HR to put the Mets ahead 6-3. Good thing that even though I don’t remember the game, I know the Yankees must end up winning, ’cause it doesn’t look so good.
Good morning. I don’t know if I missed it here – anyone know if the Soriano press conference and Cashman comments are televised or on the web?
BoJo – you can’t “just put Joba in that spot” is the problem.
It’s not that simple for a few reasons:
—
Actually it IS that simple. Given his previous innings pitched, Joba could easily go 190 innings in 2011 if needed. Also, the Yankees didn’t want Soriano, they told us that Mitre/Aceves/Gaudin had a good shot to make the rotation last year, that they weren’t going to sign Mark Teixeira, etc.. They could easily change their tune by spring training…
Mike Ri January 19th, 2011 at 10:15 am
Chip –
I also worry if his hand/wrist issues are going to be a chronic problem.
————————-
I hope not ! … . He was playing so well until that wrist problem occurred
—————
I believe that’s the same issue that sidelined him in 2009 and opened the door for Melky.
Great post – think that is the game where Castillo drops the pop fly with 2 outs
Patrick January 19th, 2011 at 10:16 am
BoJo – you can’t “just put Joba in that spot” is the problem.
It’s not that simple for a few reasons:
—
Actually it IS that simple. Given his previous innings pitched, Joba could easily go 190 innings in 2011 if needed. Also, the Yankees didn’t want Soriano, they told us that Mitre/Aceves/Gaudin had a good shot to make the rotation last year, that they weren’t going to sign Mark Teixeira, etc.. They could easily change their tune by spring training…
————-
Very true – you could be right – I will have to see it before I accept it as the path they’re taking though.
108-
That’s for Cashman and co. to decide but I know we’re not going be able to keep ‘em all.
Some might make the Rotation. A few might make the pen.
And the rest ……
Trade bait to improve the Parent club. lot’s of teams can use cost-controlled SP’s and also Catchers.
At some point, that Gold and silver to trade with.
I was actaully surprised some did not go at this time. Just wasn’t enough out there I guess.
Gardner is worth his weight in gold. He is an inexpensive, effective LF’r. We don’t need a mult-gazillion dollar player at every position. He has been reliable and hopefully, his wrist will be just fine.
I am not an admirer of Ervin Sanchez. If memory serves, the Yankees did very well against him. He is an exampe of a pitcher that was supposed to be a super=star and isn’t.
West Coast Yankee Fan January 19th, 2011 at 10:15 am
Good morning. I don’t know if I missed it here – anyone know if the Soriano press conference and Cashman comments are televised or on the web?
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I haven’t heard but I would imagine it will be on YES. Yankees haven’t had a TV presser all winter – they’re itching to get the buffet set up for the media at least once.
Doreen January 19th, 2011 at 10:15 am
I?ve got the YES Network on and they?re showing a Classic versus the Mets. Sheffield just hit a 2-run HR to put the Mets ahead 6-3. Good thing that even though I don?t remember the game, I know the Yankees must end up winning, ?cause it doesn?t look so good.
***********************************
Is that the game where Castillo dropped the ball?
I remember Michael Kay going nuts. LOL
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....id=6261176
link to Soriano presser
it doesn’t appear to be on YES. Cashman is speaking now
Tom-
Since you’re so into Uranium you might want to visit Moab, UT. That’s where they got the stuff used in the first atom bombs.
Those old mines are mainly closed now but he stuff comes cheap.
Good morning MTU, Randy I, GB7 and of course to the lovely ladies, Erin and Kate.
Waiting to see if the Yankees do indeed snare A. Jones.
Comet
Cashman just shook Sori’s hand it was a lil awkward nothing crazy but just a lil off beat. Joe G is speaking now about the impact of a lock down pen. “We have two closers one in the 8th and 9th inning”
Chip January 19th, 2011 at 10:10 am
BoJo – you can’t “just put Joba in that spot” is the problem.
It’s not that simple for a few reasons:
1. The Yankees don’t want him there – either based on performance or fear that his shoulder won’t hold up.
2. If you did put Joba in the rotation he’s going to only be able to go maybe 110 – 130 innings – that’s not enough for a mid rotation guy
++++++++++++++
Sorry but I disagree.
First, he is now 25 and at full maturity physically. His shoulder tendinitis in 2008 was at age 23, when teams should be extra careful. I say let him pitch now and see if there is a problem. The fact that he was throwing 98 last year tells me that his shoulder is fine.
Second, there would be no innings limit on Joba this year. As the Yankees have stated on more than one occassion, they look at innings over 2 or 3 years, and Joba built up his innings enough in 2009 that he would not be on a limit.
Good morning Comet!
Man Randy Levine’s face brings anger to me
Sori is getting ready to put the jersey on
The jersey is on they are taking pictures now
Erin -
If that’s the game – then I’m really wacked out – I was at that game!!! Maybe that’s why I didn’t recognize it – I didn’t see it on TV.
Just checked -
Yup – that’s the game!
Funny thing – I just heard Michael Kay say Joba didn’t do a bad job – that the pitch count got him. But I was there, and it was so hard to watch him get through the innings he did pitch. Lots of long counts, walks. But he got out of all the trouble he set up. Joba, Joba, Joba.
What an enigma.
What # ?
What channel is the press conference on? Why isn’t it on YES???? What’s the point of YES???
Comet-
Greetings.
Number 29.
and http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?topic_id=6261176
I’m happy to be with one of the greatest closers Mariano Rivera. – Sori
Everyone talks about how Crawford makes the Sox so much better than the Yanks. I call BS.
Crawford career OPS: .781
Granderson carrer OPS: .822
Suprising, huh?
Now consider Granderson plays CF not LF, and is being paid about about $14 million less a year. I understand Crawford swipes more bags, but the bottom line is that (contracts aside) Granderson is at least equal to Crawford.
Finally, they toke the left fielder with arguably the best range in the game, and put him in the smallest left field in the game. Brilliant. People are very much overhyping the impact of Carl Crawford.
SAS January 19th, 2011 at 10:19 am
Gardner is worth his weight in gold. He is an inexpensive, effective LF’r. We don’t need a mult-gazillion dollar player at every position. He has been reliable and hopefully, his wrist will be just fine.
I am not an admirer of Ervin Sanchez. If memory serves, the Yankees did very well against him. He is an exampe of a pitcher that was supposed to be a super=star and isn’t.
———————-
Well on the plus side if the Yankees traded for Ervin SANTANA his performance against the Yankees would be moot since he wouldn’t have to fact them any more (for the record Santana has a career era of 1.96 vs the Yankees). His stats against the Red Sox are quite impressive:
8 games 2.31 ERA, .304 Slugging against.
Thanks for the link! Watching now.
Dassit January 19th, 2011 at 10:27 am
Number 29.
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Cervelli changing numbers?
Dassit-
Thanks.
SI_JoeLemire Soriano, wearing #Yankees uniform first time, and Girardi http://twitpic.com/3rgod9
BoJo January 19th, 2011 at 10:23 am
Chip January 19th, 2011 at 10:10 am
BoJo – you can’t “just put Joba in that spot” is the problem.
It’s not that simple for a few reasons:
1. The Yankees don’t want him there – either based on performance or fear that his shoulder won’t hold up.
2. If you did put Joba in the rotation he’s going to only be able to go maybe 110 – 130 innings – that’s not enough for a mid rotation guy
++++++++++++++
Sorry but I disagree.
First, he is now 25 and at full maturity physically. His shoulder tendinitis in 2008 was at age 23, when teams should be extra careful. I say let him pitch now and see if there is a problem. The fact that he was throwing 98 last year tells me that his shoulder is fine.
Second, there would be no innings limit on Joba this year. As the Yankees have stated on more than one occassion, they look at innings over 2 or 3 years, and Joba built up his innings enough in 2009 that he would not be on a limit.
—————————-
The fact that he was “clocked” throwing 98 last year is meaningless:
1. Gassing it out for 1 inning is a lot different than maintaining for 6 or 7
2. Radar guns have been known to fib to get ooh’s and ahhs from the crowd. I think I once saw a reading on Jamie Moyer where he threw a pitch 92.
# BoJo January 19th, 2011 at 10:23 am
Chip January 19th, 2011 at 10:10 am
BoJo – you can’t “just put Joba in that spot” is the problem.
It’s not that simple for a few reasons:
1. The Yankees don’t want him there – either based on performance or fear that his shoulder won’t hold up.
2. If you did put Joba in the rotation he’s going to only be able to go maybe 110 – 130 innings – that’s not enough for a mid rotation guy
++++++++++++++
Sorry but I disagree.
First, he is now 25 and at full maturity physically. His shoulder tendinitis in 2008 was at age 23, when teams should be extra careful. I say let him pitch now and see if there is a problem. The fact that he was throwing 98 last year tells me that his shoulder is fine.
Second, there would be no innings limit on Joba this year. As the Yankees have stated on more than one occassion, they look at innings over 2 or 3 years, and Joba built up his innings enough in 2009 that he would not be on a limit.
———————————————–
All signs point to him getting a chance but will the Yankees give it to him stay tuned lol.
Erin January 19th, 2011 at 10:29 am
Dassit January 19th, 2011 at 10:27 am
Number 29.
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Cervelli changing numbers?
——————-
Depends – someone at Scranton already have 29?
i thought presser started at 11 and not on yes
Chip,
Thanks for the info. I still don’t like him.
—————————————–
Comet,
Nice to see you. It has been a while. I assume you decided not to winter in AZ.
Doreen-that’s cool you were at that game!
I forgot Joba started that game. lol
did that lady with the mic just pick her nose?
I wonder if Cashman was up all night memorizing.
So the Soriano portion is over. Cashman is taking questions in the back – anywhere to watch that?
Depends – someone at Scranton already have 29?
—
Harsh
Chip–
The mph point was to illustrate that Joba is airing it out again, not that I expect him to throw 96 every inning he is out ther. But I do believe he is healthy enough to start again.
You didn’t respond to the innings non-limitation point, so I presume you accept that.
The only question about starting him in my mind is whether the FO can eat crow and go back on what they said. I hope they can,
Boy do I miss Hideki Matsui.
(Just realized the HR he hit in that game was just below where we were sitting.)
Good morning SAS. We’re still in the market. Good to meet up with you here. I’ll be including you in my “lovely ladies”
category from now on.
Chip,
I think you may have been able to consider a deal like that if the Yanks had signed Crawford….as it is though I don’t think Santana is good enough to warrant opening up another hole with no comparable option to fill it.
BoJo January 19th, 2011 at 10:43 am
Chip–
The mph point was to illustrate that Joba is airing it out again, not that I expect him to throw 96 every inning he is out ther. But I do believe he is healthy enough to start again.
You didn’t respond to the innings non-limitation point, so I presume you accept that.
The only question about starting him in my mind is whether the FO can eat crow and go back on what they said. I hope they can,
———————-
I don’t really accept the non-innings limit since I think the Yankees would be extra careful with him.
In the end I don’t know that I would spend too much time arguing any of these points simply because I don’t think the Yankees will go this route. I don’t think it has anything to do with eating crow on the decision to bump him – I think they bumped him for the same reason the Red Sox bumped Pap – they don’t believe in the health of his shoulder holding up as a starter.
Doreen January 19th, 2011 at 10:47 am
Boy do I miss Hideki Matsui.
*********************
Me too
Hughes and Cano aren’t going anywhere and Joba’s value isn’t high enough right now to generate the kind of return that would help the Yankees – that leaves one tradeable asset on the 25 man – Gardner.
////
I would say not so much that Joba’s value is to low to generate the kind of return that would help, although that’s certainly a reasonable point.But to me,Joba’s value isn’t high enough to get back a player as good as Joba potentially can be himself if he’s put back into the rotation.There’s the argument that Joba needs to just be adequate enough as a Number 4,which is right on.But there is also the POSSIBILITY that Joba,if things go well for him,can far eclipse that expectation.THAT’S what I don’t want to trade,assuming they give him the chance in the first place.
blake January 19th, 2011 at 10:49 am
Chip,
I think you may have been able to consider a deal like that if the Yanks had signed Crawford….as it is though I don’t think Santana is good enough to warrant opening up another hole with no comparable option to fill it.
——————-
Blake – I don’t know that there’s no comparable option to fill LF if the Yankees dealt Gardner.
As I said, I would be content to sign either Pods or Damon for a year. Neither are as complete as Gardner is right now – Damon’s not as good defensively and Pods lacks some of the offense (though not much) but they would be fine gap fillers and then you go out and get yourself a new LF next year.
The Yankees won 4 titles in 5 years in the late 90s and I don’t think they had the same primary LF for any two seasons in a row.
If Pettitte doesn’t return, it’s possible Hank and Hal may overrule Cashman on Joba starting. I think they may believe going into the season with two dependable starters, Sabathia and Hghes, could lead to a poor season and reduced revenues.
They could start to lengthen him out in spring training and send him to Scranton Wilkes Barre when the season starts if they need to.
JAP–
Well said
I find Carl Crawford to be an incredible player, which is probably an overstatement. He’s most definitely a good player, perhaps a great player.
He is not worth the money he is getting.
I absolutely LOVE our outfield. Granderson and Swisher are guys who strike out a lot but who can hit homeruns and are above average defensively (Swish might be more like average, but he’s a huge improvement over past RF).
And look at Gardner! How about that guy? He’s fast. He hits for a decent average. He steals bases and is a superb defender. He’s also got some character and, surprise surprise, he is cheap. Why spend all that money on Crawford or Werth when we’ve got three outfielders who are among the best production wise? Even though Granderson had a down year, he was still more productive than a lot of CF in baseball.
Our infield is even better, which is what makes our team so interesting to watch. We’ve got the best infield in the game, one of the better outfields, and we’ve got a catcher who, despite his down season last year, is actually one of the better all around values in the game.
Sure, our rotation could use a strong #4 and #5 if Pettitte doesn’t come back, but there are still viable options out there and we’ve got the talent in the system just waiting to burst through. If Burnett can turn last season around and we have a semblance of the offensive production we had last year, we’re in for a decent season — most likely a playoff season.
OH, and have you seen that bullpen?!
West Coast Yankee Fan January 19th, 2011 at 10:56 am
If Pettitte doesn’t return, it’s possible Hank and Hal may overrule Cashman on Joba starting. I think they may believe going into the season with two dependable starters, Sabathia and Hghes, could lead to a poor season and reduced revenues.
They could start to lengthen him out in spring training and send him to Scranton Wilkes Barre when the season starts if they need to.
—————-
By all accounts the reason Soriano is a Yankee today is because ownership didn’t have faith in Joba as a set-up man. Why would they have any more faith in him as a starting pitcher?
J. Alfred Prufrock January 19th, 2011 at 10:55 am
Hughes and Cano aren’t going anywhere and Joba’s value isn’t high enough right now to generate the kind of return that would help the Yankees – that leaves one tradeable asset on the 25 man – Gardner.
////
I would say not so much that Joba’s value is to low to generate the kind of return that would help, although that’s certainly a reasonable point.But to me,Joba’s value isn’t high enough to get back a player as good as Joba potentially can be himself if he’s put back into the rotation.There’s the argument that Joba needs to just be adequate enough as a Number 4,which is right on.But there is also the POSSIBILITY that Joba,if things go well for him,can far eclipse that expectation.THAT’S what I don’t want to trade,assuming they give him the chance in the first place.
————————–
No offense but I think you guys who are looking for Joba to be the starter he was supposed to be are holding out hope for finding a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Chip,
Who would they get next year? You’re adding about 8 million to the payroll plus whatever stop gap you sign for LF and Im not sure it makes the team better.
Chip January 19th, 2011 at 10:51 am
they don’t believe in the health of his shoulder holding up as a starter.
———————————-
Wasn’t it Pap that went to the Red Sox and told them to let him close during ST a few yrs ago? Not saying you’re wrong but…
Soriano is ‘pleased’. i guess that’s more honest than saying, ‘it has always been my dream’. The ONLY person i ever believed when they say that is Jeter.
I think there has been a misunderstanding here of some comments made yesterday about where Joba could pitch.
A writer asked FO about sending Joba to SWB and waivers, and the FO guy said it wouldn’t be a problem because the team could always pull Joba back.
Everyone is assuming that means he could be sent down, but I think that is wrong. It means the Yankees could pull him back but he would have to remain where he is…he couldn’t be sent down.
The only way for him to get extended time in minors to work on any mechanics is if he fakes an injury and does his 1 month of rehab time. Then he has to be called up or put through waivers to get to SWB. Someone will claim him, and then he has to be recalled or lost.
The writer did a poor job explaining that.
Cashman did try to hit the panic button: the outrageous offer he made to Cliff Lee. If you are worried about age and declining performance, Cliff Lee will turn 33 years old during the 2011 season, which would have been Year 1 of a SEVEN year deal that Cashman attempted to give him. That’s crazy. Had Lee signed with the Yanks, he would have been a top pitcher for three years — less than half the contract. Cashman dodged a bullet when Lee decided to sign elsewhere.
# Chip January 19th, 2011 at 11:01 am
J. Alfred Prufrock January 19th, 2011 at 10:55 am
Hughes and Cano aren’t going anywhere and Joba’s value isn’t high enough right now to generate the kind of return that would help the Yankees – that leaves one tradeable asset on the 25 man – Gardner.
////
I would say not so much that Joba’s value is to low to generate the kind of return that would help, although that’s certainly a reasonable point.But to me,Joba’s value isn’t high enough to get back a player as good as Joba potentially can be himself if he’s put back into the rotation.There’s the argument that Joba needs to just be adequate enough as a Number 4,which is right on.But there is also the POSSIBILITY that Joba,if things go well for him,can far eclipse that expectation.THAT’S what I don’t want to trade,assuming they give him the chance in the first place.
————————–
No offense but I think you guys who are looking for Joba to be the starter he was supposed to be are holding out hope for finding a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
—————————————————-
There is probably some truth to that. I don’t think anyone expects him to be a savior this season but maybe in a 2 yrs or so at least be a number 2.
Is this article a jab at the left side of the yank’s infield???
“After 35, it’s a complete crap-shoot what you’re going to get.”
Chip January 19th, 2011 at 11:01 am
No offense but I think you guys who are looking for Joba to be the starter he was supposed to be are holding out hope for finding a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow
+++++++++++++
None taken…but some of us think you are judging a 23 year old entirely incorrectly. A typical 23 year old with less than 1 year in the pros is going to struggle, but the teams that have patience and guide him correctly often get a gem.
Bojo teams do not usually claim players off of optional waivers from what I have read.
PeterBotte: Cashman: “Joba is a bullpen guy, for the 200th time.”
SI_JoeLemire #Yankees GM Brian Cashman acknowledges he did not recommend signing of Soriano. Says final call was Hal Steinbrenner’s.
SI_JoeLemire Cashman reiterated several times that he does not dispute Soriano’s considerable talents. “We are better in 2011 for this.” #yankees
SI_JoeLemire Cashman: “29 GMs would love to have their owners force Rafael Soriano down their throat” #yankees
Chip – I am not a Joba fan, but if Pettitte doesn’t return it may be something they should try. I am not sure what management thinks and who exactly thinks it. I am speculating that Cashman doesn’t want Joba to start and that the Steinbros may overrule him for the reason I suggested.
PeterBotte Csashman: “Its not my team. I don’t own it. They do…In any job you better be prepared for every decision to not go your way.”
PeterBotte Cashman: “I think 29 other GMs would love to have their owner shove Rafael Soriano down their throat.”
WCYF—
Someone (Boston) would claim Joba just to screw with Cashman. You can bet on it after the tricks he has pulled on them.
SI_JoeLemire Cashman: “I just didn’t think it was an efficient way to allocate our remaining resources.” #yankees
Chip,
I don’t necessarily think the Soriano thing is tied into lack of confidence with Joba. I think a lot of it has to do with Levine (and ownership) wanting to make a splash. Maybe you’re right though. I guess my hope is that with Cashman being overruled on the Soriano thing he will try to make the best of the situation and reassess his stance on Joba. Levine can tell ownership to sign a guy but I don’t think he’d have the power to force the GM and manager to play a guy in a certain role.
I am far from a Joba fan, he should have been traded two years ago. I am just concerned about our rotation. I’m not a believer in Noesi, Nova and/or Phelps as the answer this year
“Cashman: “I just didn’t think it was an efficient way to allocate our remaining resources.”
This.
Not for nothing, but when the Red Sox were looking at putting Papelbon in the rotation, Paps was excited about the prospect and expressed disappointment when told he was going to stay in the bullpen. Some brainwashing was done, expunging of the written records and such, and a day or two later the story was that Papelbon was thrilled to be in the bullpen.
Bojo,
I think the point was that because the player could be pulled back, teams don’t usually bother claiming players in those cases.
Cashman: “I just didn’t think it was an efficient way to allocate our remaining resources.”
Problem was, he wasn’t allocating them at all. Nothing was happening, and even now, they will still get Jones and one possible 5th starter. So what difference did holding the money really do?
Bojo – I don’t think that would happen on optional waivers, but if it did there are other ways to get him to SWB. I think given Cashman’s comment just now it’s not going to happen…unless it happens. lol
# Doreen January 19th, 2011 at 11:15 am
Not for nothing, but when the Red Sox were looking at putting Papelbon in the rotation, Paps was excited about the prospect and expressed disappointment when told he was going to stay in the bullpen. Some brainwashing was done, expunging of the written records and such, and a day or two later the story was that Papelbon was thrilled to be in the bullpen.
————————-
Steve Phillips still believes that Papelbon wants to start. I remember a couple of yrs ago when he stated the Red Sox should trade Pap because the money he would command is probably more than they want to pay.
The Yankees and their owners realize that if money comes off and isn’t reinvested in the team, that their fans wont be happy…..especially if the team struggles. Its not an efficient use of resources maybe but it does make the team better ….which is the goal. ..Ferari’s aren’t efficient either.
blake January 19th, 2011 at 11:02 am
Chip,
Who would they get next year? You’re adding about 8 million to the payroll plus whatever stop gap you sign for LF and Im not sure it makes the team better.
——————-
Blake – I’m all about pitching. If the Yankees can put together a rotation of CC, Santana, Hughes, AJ, Nova/Phelps then yeah, that’s better to me than CC, Hughes, AJ, Nova and Phelps. (or whomever else is available)
As for who I would get to play LF in 2012 – frankly that’s a worry for another day, but if you want some possibilities:
Carlos Beltran
Jose Bautista
David DeJesus
Grady Sizemore
Coco Crisp
and that’s still a lot deeper than the starting pitcher market will be.
The only compelling reason for the Yankees to have signed Crawford this off season was to trade one of their existing OF’ers for a top starting pitcher to make up for the loss of Lee and Andy in free agency.
That said, the contract was ridiculous. He has a bulls eye on his back in Boston for the next 7 years.
I do think he is going to have good seasons there though. He’s a talented player.
I think he’ll be okay years 1-4. After that, it gets dicey.
I just hope the Yankees build rotations and teams that can keep Boston from winning titles. Nothing would make me happier than to see the Red Sox have to deal with the fact that they traded the farm due to fan pressure to do something, spent like the Yankees and then won nothing in the end.
Patrick January 19th, 2011 at 11:13 am
Chip,
I don’t necessarily think the Soriano thing is tied into lack of confidence with Joba. I think a lot of it has to do with Levine (and ownership) wanting to make a splash. Maybe you’re right though. I guess my hope is that with Cashman being overruled on the Soriano thing he will try to make the best of the situation and reassess his stance on Joba. Levine can tell ownership to sign a guy but I don’t think he’d have the power to force the GM and manager to play a guy in a certain role.
—————–
Based on his comments today I don’t think that Cashman has any plans to revisit the Joba starting thing – but then again Cashman has been known to say one thing and do another.
And you’re right – the day Randy Levine or Hal or Hank start dictating on the field moves is the day Cashman will walk away.
“Its not an efficient use of resources maybe but it does make the team better ….which is the goal. ..Ferari’s aren’t efficient either.”
blake-
The point is not to be better, but to be as good as possible. If I have to guess (and I have to since I have no way of knowing) I’d trust Cashman’s judgment over the owners.
Erin January 19th, 2011 at 11:09 am
PeterBotte: Cashman: “Joba is a bullpen guy, for the 200th time.”
////
Memo to Cash:That’s a stupid stance, for the 200th time.
Chip,
Im all about pitching as well but I think there may be better options availlable at the deadline that could be aquired without parting with your LFer….
Just one more thing on Joba starter vs. Joba reliever.
In the “competition” last spring training between him and Hughes, Joba didn’t even come in second – he was a distant third to Hughes and Alfredo Aceves for the 5th starter spot.
blake January 19th, 2011 at 11:15 am
Bojo,
I think the point was that because the player could be pulled back, teams don’t usually bother claiming players in those cases.
+++++++++++
Remember the Billy Wagner deal where Cash put a claim on the player the Sox were trying to send to Mets? Theo certainly does.
And this isn’t just any player that typically gets sent down. This is a guy who has immediate value that Theo or another GM could put in their bullpen…
Finally, if Theo allowed Brian to send Joba to SWB to improve his value, Theo would have his head handed to him by Sox fans. You block opponents efforts to improve whenever you can.
Bottom line: If Yankees tried to put Joba thru waivers, he would be claimed the first time and the team would be forced to pull him back. If they tried a second time, he’d be gone.
Cashman can’t possibly be stupid enough to let Joba stay in the bullpen in mop-up duty while Sergio Mitre is in the rotation with a 6.5 ERA. I think the most likely scenario is that he’s lying to the media right now.
I’m with all those that say if we can’t trust Joba in the 8th then why would you want him in innings 1-7? Am I missing something? I know we don’t have any starters but is he really the best guy for that role?
Chip January 19th, 2011 at 11:26 am
Just one more thing on Joba starter vs. Joba reliever.
In the “competition” last spring training between him and Hughes, Joba didn’t even come in second – he was a distant third to Hughes and Alfredo Aceves for the 5th starter spot.
++++++++++++
Sorry–poor argument. Joba was sick with a bad flu for several days at the beginning, but was getting stronger towards the end.
BrianCoz Cashman just said he considered Pavano. Release the hounds. #yankees
# J. Alfred Prufrock January 19th, 2011 at 11:24 am
Erin January 19th, 2011 at 11:09 am
PeterBotte: Cashman: “Joba is a bullpen guy, for the 200th time.”
////
Memo to Cash:That’s a stupid stance, for the 200th time.
————————————————–
Interesting not surprising but interesting. It does get to the point where you say ok it’s not going to happen but if Cashman is going to leave him in the pen without giving a good reason then drum the will keep beating.
blake January 19th, 2011 at 11:25 am
Chip,
Im all about pitching as well but I think there may be better options availlable at the deadline that could be aquired without parting with your LFer….
——————
Who are you going to part with?
Based on the trades that have gone down recently for Peavy, Haren and Greinke – to get a decent starter you need to part with someone off your major league roster.
As I said – the Yankees have very few guys who qualify as an inexpensive, established major leaguer and only two they would consider parting with and only one who has any real value.
# pat January 19th, 2011 at 11:27 am
BrianCoz Cashman just said he considered Pavano. Release the hounds. #yankees
—————————————————–
SMH oh boy Cash..what a winter
RiverAveBlues Buh what? RT @BrianCoz: Cashman just said he considered Pavano. Release the hounds. #yankees
__
Considered….. Perhaps considered having him offed.
BoJo January 19th, 2011 at 11:27 am
Chip January 19th, 2011 at 11:26 am
Just one more thing on Joba starter vs. Joba reliever.
In the “competition” last spring training between him and Hughes, Joba didn’t even come in second – he was a distant third to Hughes and Alfredo Aceves for the 5th starter spot.
++++++++++++
Sorry–poor argument. Joba was sick with a bad flu for several days at the beginning, but was getting stronger towards the end.
————-
Towards the end of spring training yes he was getting better – when he was back in a relief role for which he is better suited.
tyanksfan36 January 19th, 2011 at 11:27 am
I’m with all those that say if we can’t trust Joba in the 8th then why would his has been discussed here, but the main argument is that you want him in innings 1-7? Am I missing something? I know we don’t have any starters but is he really the best guy for that role?
++++++++++++
Again, this has been discussed here, but the main argument is that Joba had 4 bad outings in 2010 that blew up his ERA. Other than that, he was quite good.
If he had those outings as a starter, giving up 4 runs in 6 innings of work still gives him a shot at winning. He is well suited to the role.
BoJo -
Pitchers and catchers report in under a month – at that point we’ll see what the final plan is for Joba.
Wave,
Signing Soriano may helped make the Yankees as good as possible in 2011…..this works out good for Cashman, if the deal is a success then great…..if not then its not his fault. Like I’ve said before, I like the deal but think its too early to tell if it was really a good idea or not….have to let things play out and see.
# BoJo January 19th, 2011 at 11:27 am
Chip January 19th, 2011 at 11:26 am
Just one more thing on Joba starter vs. Joba reliever.
In the “competition” last spring training between him and Hughes, Joba didn’t even come in second – he was a distant third to Hughes and Alfredo Aceves for the 5th starter spot.
++++++++++++
Sorry–poor argument. Joba was sick with a bad flu for several days at the beginning, but was getting stronger towards the end.
————————————————
And then there came a point where he stopped pitching in actual games and was regulated to intra squad ones. I was over at RAB last night and a poster mentioned how during ST Hughes pitched 20+ innings while Joba pitched around 10 or so.
Chip January 19th, 2011 at 11:29 am
Towards the end of spring training yes he was getting better – when he was back in a relief role for which he is better suited.
+++++++++
Wrong. I am talking about his starts. There was talk up until the end that he still might win the slot because his starts were stronger.
Before we do anything with Joba, it would be nice to see him get the 100 mph fastball working and a ‘successful’ slider. then lets talk.
pat January 19th, 2011 at 11:27 am
BrianCoz Cashman just said he considered Pavano. Release the hounds. #yankees
************************
Was he going through some sort of psychosis at the time?
Chip January 19th, 2011 at 11:30 am
BoJo -
Pitchers and catchers report in under a month – at that point we’ll see what the final plan is for Joba.
+++++++++++++
Perhaps…it might take until July to see what the FINAL plan is.
ac1 January 19th, 2011 at 11:29 am
RiverAveBlues Buh what? RT @BrianCoz: Cashman just said he considered Pavano. Release the hounds. #yankees
__
Considered?.. Perhaps considered having him offed.
***************************
Against All Odds January 19th, 2011 at 11:28 am
# J. Alfred Prufrock January 19th, 2011 at 11:24 am
Erin January 19th, 2011 at 11:09 am
PeterBotte: Cashman: “Joba is a bullpen guy, for the 200th time.”
////
Memo to Cash:That’s a stupid stance, for the 200th time.
————————————————–
Interesting not surprising but interesting. It does get to the point where you say ok it’s not going to happen but if Cashman is going to leave him in the pen without giving a good reason then drum the will keep beating.
—————————
Cashman may have a very good reason – but if he announces it publically it could well destroy any value Chamberlain has left.
Right now he can still deal Joba but if he says “we’re leaving him in the pen over concerns about the stability of his shoulder” or “we think he’s lazy and fat with no work ethic” or “he’s just not very good.” then that’s that – fans will be satisfied because they’ll have gotten their answer but any value Joba has left goes right down the toilet.
Bojo,
they wouldn’t try more than once though ….
# Chip January 19th, 2011 at 11:29 am
BoJo January 19th, 2011 at 11:27 am
Chip January 19th, 2011 at 11:26 am
Just one more thing on Joba starter vs. Joba reliever.
In the “competition” last spring training between him and Hughes, Joba didn’t even come in second – he was a distant third to Hughes and Alfredo Aceves for the 5th starter spot.
++++++++++++
Sorry–poor argument. Joba was sick with a bad flu for several days at the beginning, but was getting stronger towards the end.
————-
Towards the end of spring training yes he was getting better – when he was back in a relief role for which he is better suited.
——————————————
That’s not completely true.
BoJo January 19th, 2011 at 11:32 am
Chip January 19th, 2011 at 11:30 am
BoJo -
Pitchers and catchers report in under a month – at that point we’ll see what the final plan is for Joba.
+++++++++++++
Perhaps…it might take until July to see what the FINAL plan is
———————
No shot. They’re not going to transition him from reliever to starter during the season again. That was a massive failure (which in turn led to the shoulder issues) when they tried it in 2008 and they’re not nearly stupid enough to go through it all over again.
ac1 January 19th, 2011 at 11:31 am
Before we do anything with Joba, it would be nice to see him get the 100 mph fastball working and a ‘successful’ slider. then lets talk.
++++++++++++++
Doesn’t need a 100 mph FB to start or be effective.
And frequently, pitchers throw harder as warmer weather comes around and they stretch out their arms.
Milton Bradley arrested? What a shock.
BrianCoz Cashman just said he considered Pavano. Release the hounds. #yankees
—
He should have done more than consider him. He should have signed him
Chip January 19th, 2011 at 11:34 am
No shot. They’re not going to transition him from reliever to starter during the season again. That was a massive failure (which in turn led to the shoulder issues) when they tried it in 2008 and they’re not nearly stupid enough to go through it all over again.
++++++++++++++++++
You misunderstood my point. July is trading deadline…It may take until then to see the FINAL plan.
# Chip January 19th, 2011 at 11:32 am
Against All Odds January 19th, 2011 at 11:28 am
# J. Alfred Prufrock January 19th, 2011 at 11:24 am
Erin January 19th, 2011 at 11:09 am
PeterBotte: Cashman: “Joba is a bullpen guy, for the 200th time.”
////
Memo to Cash:That’s a stupid stance, for the 200th time.
————————————————–
Interesting not surprising but interesting. It does get to the point where you say ok it’s not going to happen but if Cashman is going to leave him in the pen without giving a good reason then drum the will keep beating.
—————————
Cashman may have a very good reason – but if he announces it publically it could well destroy any value Chamberlain has left.
Right now he can still deal Joba but if he says “we’re leaving him in the pen over concerns about the stability of his shoulder” or “we think he’s lazy and fat with no work ethic” or “he’s just not very good.” then that’s that – fans will be satisfied because they’ll have gotten their answer but any value Joba has left goes right down the toilet.
———————————–
The problem with that is his value is already in the toilet. If you’re another team and the Yankees come to you about Joba wouldn’t you be skeptical. Wait a second you’re selling him to me as a starter but yet you don’t trust him enough to be at the back end of your rotation. Then you’re selling him to me as a reliever but he’s not good enough to be your 7th inning guy.
Bojo,
I’ll give you that. But, he does need an effective slider. Last year, he could barely get it to look like a strike, hence the need for the increased velo on his fastball.
BryanHoch Joe Girardi spoke to Andy Pettitte last week. No decision, but Girardi confirms Pettitte is at least working out to be in baseball shape.
blake January 19th, 2011 at 11:33 am
Bojo,
they wouldn’t try more than once though …
++++++++++
The point I was trying to make was that Joba wasn’t going to be able to be sent to SWB to build up endurance or anything like that unless he faked an injury, and then would only get 30 days in rehab.
Waivers are not an option at all, and hte story yesterday was misleading.
BryanHoch Joe Girardi spoke to Andy Pettitte last week. No decision, but Girardi confirms Pettitte is at least working out to be in baseball shape.
__
All i need to hear. He will be back at some point. Don’t Brett Favre us Andy!
ac1 January 19th, 2011 at 11:36 am
Bojo,
I’ll give you that. But, he does need an effective slider. Last year, he could barely get it to look like a strike, hence the need for the increased velo on his fastball.
++++++++++
I agree….his slider is the key to his success. That and control.
BryanHoch Joe Girardi spoke to Andy Pettitte last week. No decision, but Girardi confirms Pettitte is at least working out to be in baseball shape.
ah don’t start that again ac1
oops-pat beat me!
Oh geez…I just got a text msg with photo from Andy! He’s Brett Farving folks!
I don’t understand all of the nasty remarks and hatred for a fine young man and a one of baseball’s greatest players like Milton Bradley. You people act like he’s Jon Heyman or something. Makes me sick.
Good news on Andy….at this point I don’t see why he would be working out if he wasn’t leaning towards pit hint again. I think he’ll be back.
Bojo,
Not really. They could try it…if someone claims him then no harm done….just pull him back and carry on. Doesn’t sound like they are.considering starting him.anyway though so doesn’t matter.
pcaldera Brian Cashman less than lukewarm on remaining free agent starters’ market: “If you’re still on the board, there’s a reason for it.”
If the team is even considering Joba in the rotation again we won’t hear about it at all.
The first indication will be he goes multiple innings in the spring and the team will explain it as they envision him as a multi-inning reliever a la Goose Gossage.
I think they are going to let Rothschild evaluate him and earn his money. If Rothschild says “this kid is a starter”, then they will stretch him out.
I’m just worried if they do stretch him out can he make that innings jump from reliever to starter?
Since there is no longer a need for Joba to be he 8th inning guy, I’d like to see him get a chance for a rotation spot. I’m not a Joba fan but what could it hurt. Maybe Rothchild and Martin can get through that thick skull of his.
pcaldera Brian Cashman less than lukewarm on remaining free agent starters’ market: “If you’re still on the board, there’s a reason for it.”
_
way with words..
Assuming this is besides Andruw Jones. Also, would like him to try to get Ducscherer.
# J. Alfred Prufrock January 19th, 2011 at 11:24 am
Erin January 19th, 2011 at 11:09 am
PeterBotte: Cashman: “Joba is a bullpen guy, for the 200th time.”
////
Memo to Cash:That’s a stupid stance, for the 200th time.
————————————-
That is part of Cashman’s problem…he leaves himself no wiggle room. What’s wrong with saying obviously things can change at a moment’s notice but at this time he’s going to be a reliever. Now yes some ppl would still scream and moan but it’s a lot better than painting yourself into a corner.
G. Love January 19th, 2011 at 11:44 am
+++++++++++
Agreed. Good point. You should write a pinch hitter article with such sound logic.
pcaldera Also from Bronx today: Joba still a reliever, Jeter still Girardi’s leadoff man entering camp, Pettitte still undecided but throwing at home
Another “fluff” piece.
Against All Odds: That is part of Cashman?s problem?he leaves himself no wiggle room. What?s wrong with saying obviously things can change at a moment?s notice but at this time he?s going to be a reliever. Now yes some ppl would still scream and moan but it?s a lot better than painting yourself into a corner.
…Excellent point
BOJO needs to get a job. He sits on this thing all day and critcizes what other people write like he runs this blog. Would LOVE to see him write a guest post because I’m sure it would be filled with delusional thoughts on the yankees and baseball in general. I’m willing to bet the guy couldn’t even make his high school baseball team back in the 20s.
The notion of burying Joba in a middle relief role would be incredible to the point of absurdity if it weren’t so pathetically possible. Good organizations are frequently the victim of mistaken groupthink and I fear it may be happening here.
However, I am still convinced that Joba will be in the rotation this year. The alternatives will push the Yanks into the proper path.
G. Love,
Certainly possible, they coukd get Rothschikds take first. I have heard and read that Rothschild likes to be in full control of the pitching staff and that he probably woukdnt have taken the job unkess he got the final.say on pitching matters. I think he could …guys have done it before. Wainwright, Wilson, etc…
For all the Johnny Damon lovers out there. . ( not me ) …….. There’s still hope !
Via Mlbtraderumors.
The Yankees appear to be focused on Andruw Jones, but Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports suggests it’s too early to rule them out on another Scott Boras client, Johnny Damon (Twitter link).
boras is of course going to keep the yankees name in the damon discussion. im convinced this is why getting jones signed is taking so long.
So Cashman had “several discussions” with Tom O’Connell, Pavano’s agent. Can you imagine? I mean, can you imagine???
Id rather have Damon
The problem with that is his value is already in the toilet. If you’re another team and the Yankees come to you about Joba wouldn’t you be skeptical. Wait a second you’re selling him to me as a starter but yet you don’t trust him enough to be at the back end of your rotation. Then you’re selling him to me as a reliever but he’s not good enough to be your 7th inning guy.
///
yea Odds,& even if they’re not as skeptical as NYY,they can leverage seeming so since the yanks themselves declared Joba a bullpen arm forever.
Tampayank – I think what you’re missing is that starters get a chance to make their way through a start.since it’s spread over 5-6-7 innings, &you see really good ones have an occasional hiccup & then they shut it down,causing the opponent to bemoan “we didn’t put up a big number on him when we had the chance & then he got his command back,” etc, etc. Relievers don’t have such a window,& they don’t need it because they’re usually throwing 2 pitches & seeing guys once & then they sit down again.A reliever’s 2 pitch arsenal is generally not enough to get through a lineup 3-4 times.the point is that Joba isn’t limited to 2 pitches,he has a CB & change to go with his 4 & slider,& therefore has the tools to navigate through a lineup over several innings,if he can get back to solid mechanics to do so.why would you waste this in the bullpen,when good starters are so hard to come by???that’s the question the yankees have not answered to the satisfaction of folks like me,Bojo,AAO,Rich in NJ,Randy,etc.I mention these posters cos they seem more exasperated by the Yanks’ position as where others are content to write it off as the “yanks’ decision” etc,which of course, it is, because if it were ours,he would be told to prepare as a starter.
No way Pavano agrees to come back, even if the Yankees wanted to.
He has to have heard about the Javy Vazquez experiment #2.
JackCurryYES Interviewed Soriano, Cashman, Girardi, Levine, Boras at presser. Check YES and web 4 content
Id rather have Damon
___
I can’t believe we are still on this. DAMON CANNOT PLAY RIGHT FIELD!!!
Jones can.
I’m really looking forward to see what Rothschild will do with this staff.
Two points:
Re: Cash’s, “proper allocation of resources” comment……
The “resources” come from ownership, not the GM. The GM is in charge of allocating the resources.
Ownership can, and will, allocate more resources (if necessary) to acquire the right player.
Not ANY player. The RIGHT player.
Such is the benefit of having ownership willing to invest significant assets into the team.
2. As far as Joba starting, as GLove states, it does no good making Joba proclamations and starting the whole hype machine over again.
If he’s not starting, or being stretched out to start, in ST, it tells you there is more to the decision than what’s publicly known.
One last point…….
Pitching decisions and roles are not Cashman’s decision at his sole discretion.
The on field staff (Girardi and his staff) are the major voices on roles. Rothchild is also playing a major role in pitching decisions.
It’s not a “one man band” when it comes to these decisions.
Against All Odds January 19th, 2011 at 11:57 am
I’m really looking forward to see what Rothschild will do with this staff.
+++++++++++++
Me too!
Damon vs LHP in 2010: .275/.365/.375/.740
Jones vs LHP in 2010: .256/.373/.558/.931
I know you can’t jump to conclusions on one year splits vs LHP especially, but still, the Yanks need a fourth OF primarily to face lefties. Then there’s defense to consider as well.
Damon doesn’t have to play RF….if Swisher got hurt then Granderson or Golsen could. Id be fine with Jones but you know.more what you’re getting with Damon….
Mike Ri January 19th, 2011 at 11:51 am
For all the Johnny Damon lovers out there. . ( not me ) …….. There’s still hope !
Via Mlbtraderumors.
The Yankees appear to be focused on Andruw Jones, but Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports suggests it’s too early to rule them out on another Scott Boras client, Johnny Damon (Twitter link).
*****************
YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FWIW, I had a dream that Damon was back on the Yankees the other night and we were hanging out. This was a dream.
“Ownership can, and will, allocate more resources (if necessary) to acquire the right player.
Not ANY player. The RIGHT player. ”
That doesn’t really answer the question as to who is better able to identify the right collection of players and how to assemble them.
J. Alfred Prufrock January 19th, 2011 at 11:55 am
The problem with that is his value is already in the toilet. If you’re another team and the Yankees come to you about Joba wouldn’t you be skeptical. Wait a second you’re selling him to me as a starter but yet you don’t trust him enough to be at the back end of your rotation. Then you’re selling him to me as a reliever but he’s not good enough to be your 7th inning guy.
///
yea Odds,& even if they’re not as skeptical as NYY,they can leverage seeming so since the yanks themselves declared Joba a bullpen arm forever.
——————————————————–
Exactly it’s a little hard to sell him as something else when you declared he’s a reliever.
I dont see anything on YES.com on Curry Cashman interviews
ac1 January 19th, 2011 at 11:56 am
Id rather have Damon
___
I can’t believe we are still on this. DAMON CANNOT PLAY RIGHT FIELD!!!
Jones can.
********************
Why does Damon have to play RF? Did Swisher go somewhere?
Damon gives a lot more to your bench than Jones offensively. Damon has a beautiful swing for Yankee Stadium
SIGN JOHNNY DAMON!
Only 3 things can keep Chamberlain as a Yankee :
- A firm commitment to better physical conditioning.
- A strong desire to learn how to repeat his mechanics.
- Stick to plan and don’t deviate.
He will otherwise find himself a former Yankee.
Erica in NY January 19th, 2011 at 12:01 pm
Mike Ri January 19th, 2011 at 11:51 am
For all the Johnny Damon lovers out there. . ( not me ) …….. There’s still hope !
Via Mlbtraderumors.
The Yankees appear to be focused on Andruw Jones, but Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports suggests it’s too early to rule them out on another Scott Boras client, Johnny Damon (Twitter link).
*****************
YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FWIW, I had a dream that Damon was back on the Yankees the other night and we were hanging out. This was a dream.
———————————————————————————————————————-
If he was wearing an outfielder’s glove, it was a nightmare.
j/k, Erica
Against All Odds January 19th, 2011 at 11:46 am
# J. Alfred Prufrock January 19th, 2011 at 11:24 am
Erin January 19th, 2011 at 11:09 am
PeterBotte: Cashman: “Joba is a bullpen guy, for the 200th time.”
////
Memo to Cash:That’s a stupid stance, for the 200th time.
————————————-
That is part of Cashman’s problem…he leaves himself no wiggle room. What’s wrong with saying obviously things can change at a moment’s notice but at this time he’s going to be a reliever. Now yes some ppl would still scream and moan but it’s a lot better than painting yourself into a corner.
///
yea it’s a bit concerning overall,not just re Joba.sort of napoleonic,isn’t it?you don’t make ultimate statements like this as a gm because as you imply,wiggle room is just flexibility & things can change.somebody on here was complaining that joba was difficult to watch,threw a million pitches, etc. I was reading through older comments so I wasn’t in the discussion.my response to that is: hey,that’s what happens when you are developing a starter,it’s going to be rocky at times.IMO,if you have no stomach for that,you have none for developing a consistently competitive baseball team.you’re not always able to make that deal or sign that FA,as we’ve all said 100 times.maybe one yr or so you get lucky & guys fall to you,but then if that’s acceptable I guess the odd championship run is,instead of bringing the heat yr afte yr.& as I recall,Hughes had some painful starts,too.you don’t just throw in the towel when things get rough.I was sort of blown away by those comments about it being “difficult” to watch.lol.
Why does Damon have to play RF? Did Swisher go somewhere?
Damon gives a lot more to your bench than Jones offensively. Damon has a beautiful swing for Yankee Stadium
SIGN JOHNNY DAMON!
___
Crazy i know, but Swisher won’t play 162, and you aren’t using your everyday centerfielder to pack up your rightfielder. you need a 4th OF that plays all three. You arent carrying two back up outfielders when Posada is DH ing full time now.
Bench
__
1. OF
2. back up catcher
3. Utility IF
4. someone that can play ALL positions
The only way i see Damon here, is if Nunez can play RF when necessary, but then they need another IF (Pena).
# 108 stitches January 19th, 2011 at 12:03 pm
Only 3 things can keep Chamberlain as a Yankee :
- A firm commitment to better physical conditioning.
- A strong desire to learn how to repeat his mechanics.
- Stick to plan and don’t deviate.
He will otherwise find himself a former Yankee.
————————————————–
Those are 3 good points. The last statement might not be a bad thing. He may need a change of scenery.
I like Damon but he doesn’t fit ANYTHING the yankees want.
1. RH bat
2. can play all three positions
If Jones does end up somewhere else, i think then Damon is brought in and Laird/Nunez stick with the team after ST.
BryanHoch Brian Cashman continuing talks re: Andruw Jones today. Scott Boras at Yankee Stadium for Rafael Soriano press conference.
If Joba can get his game back, and they insist on not starting him, look at the pen.
7- Joba
8- Soriano
9- Rivera
with the lefties and robertson mixed in.
I’ll take that if we must.
Why is it that only one person has to have an “eye” for talent or to properly allocate their resources?
Do you think Theo Epstein wanted to pay Carl Crawford 20 million a year for 7 years? That goes against everything he stands for in building a team.
That was a Larry Lucchino call.
I don’t know of a team in MLB that has one person make ALL of the calls re: player acquisitions.
It’s a collaborative process everywhere.
That can yield both good and bad results, depending on the parties involved.
Just as a single voiced GM, as the sole decisionmaker, can do.
If anything, the Soriano signing gives Cashman more ammo to extend the budget (if need be) so ownership can “hedge it’s bet”, if you will.
And would still like them to try to get Aceves back on a minor league deal and get him back to the team as soon as he can.
If Cashman didn’t think about Pavano, he wasn’t doing his job. Judging from the way this off-season has gone, and from what we’ve all read, there are very few players Cashman has not explored.
I want to see the Yanks re-commit themselves to developing Chamberlain.for all the innuendo about his work habits,which raymagnetic’s two posted articles refuted,& the refutations coming from the yankees themselves,no one seems to call out the yanks for their lack of a “firm commitment” to his proper development.why is this??some on here do nothing but buoy managment decisions,no matter how insupportable they appear to be.
Ideally ownership should tell Cashman “We want you to build an organization capable of winning the world series every year. Here are your resources, do what you think is best.” They shouldn’t have any say in the resources are spent. Why hire a GM who then hires a team of experts if you are just going to overrule them?
SJ
Cash’s comment to me was like saying to Hal the $$ for Soriano doesn’t count against the budget you gave me, he’s on your dime so I have more $$ to play with if I need it.
If he was wearing an outfielder?s glove, it was a nightmare.
j/k, Erica
————-
GB –. LOL LOL LOL ,,, Good Luck Erica !! ( i know your a big fan ! )
NEW TRHEAD —- >
New Post- Take your swings: The Yankees considered Pavano
# 108 stitches January 19th, 2011 at 12:03 pm
Only 3 things can keep Chamberlain as a Yankee :
- A firm commitment to better physical conditioning.
- A strong desire to learn how to repeat his mechanics.
- Stick to plan and don’t deviate.
He will otherwise find himself a former Yankee.
————————————————–
/////
desire has nothing to do with repeating his delivery.they were originally worried about his arm,because he flicks it violently (where the speed comes from) & they wanted his body to catch up & be under him more,along with a host of tweaks to achieve a more coherent,supported delivery.i understand their point,but it’s tricky trying to “fix” what is successful & what is mysterious at the same time.I wonder,does anyone know if the giants tried to “alter” Lincecum?he looks like he’s goin to explode,but it works for him.
# J. Alfred Prufrock January 19th, 2011 at 12:04 pm
Against All Odds January 19th, 2011 at 11:46 am
# J. Alfred Prufrock January 19th, 2011 at 11:24 am
Erin January 19th, 2011 at 11:09 am
PeterBotte: Cashman: “Joba is a bullpen guy, for the 200th time.”
////
Memo to Cash:That’s a stupid stance, for the 200th time.
————————————-
That is part of Cashman’s problem…he leaves himself no wiggle room. What’s wrong with saying obviously things can change at a moment’s notice but at this time he’s going to be a reliever. Now yes some ppl would still scream and moan but it’s a lot better than painting yourself into a corner.
///
yea it’s a bit concerning overall,not just re Joba.sort of napoleonic,isn’t it?you don’t make ultimate statements like this as a gm because as you imply,wiggle room is just flexibility & things can change.somebody on here was complaining that joba was difficult to watch,threw a million pitches, etc. I was reading through older comments so I wasn’t in the discussion.my response to that is: hey,that’s what happens when you are developing a starter,it’s going to be rocky at times.IMO,if you have no stomach for that,you have none for developing a consistently competitive baseball team.you’re not always able to make that deal or sign that FA,as we’ve all said 100 times.maybe one yr or so you get lucky & guys fall to you,but then if that’s acceptable I guess the odd championship run is,instead of bringing the heat yr afte yr.& as I recall,Hughes had some painful starts,too.you don’t just throw in the towel when things get rough.I was sort of blown away by those comments about it being “difficult” to watch.lol.
———————————————————–
True it’s all about having flexibility. Cashman was the one that labeled Joba a starter in the pen. He’s the one that said he can start and relief but now all of sudden his stuff plays better in the pen. I’m a Cashman supporter but sometimes it seems that his ego gets in the way. Francesa has said on more than one occasion that Brian is very stubborn about certain things. Until something changes Joba in the pen seems to be one of them.
Many ppl don’t have the stomach to watch kids struggle. Before the Soriano signing I heard a number of fans say I don’t want to watch SWB Yankees on the ML level. What some fans don’t realize is that growing pains are apart of the process to develop. Not every kid is going to hit the ground running. I find it funny you’ll hear some Yankee fans point out young players on other teams and state “Where are our young players?…Why don’t we have young players like that?” Yet they don’t realize the growing pains that young player went through in order to be productive on this level.
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