Do shots with Brian Cashman
Posted by: Sam Borden - Posted in Misc on Jan 21, 2011 
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Have you ever wanted to have drinks with the Yankees GM? Now you can.
Next Wednesday, Jan. 26, Cashman will be guest bartending at Foley’s in Manhattan (a terrific bar, by the way) as a way to raise money for prostate cancer awareness and prevention.
Here are the details:
When: Jan. 26, 6-9 p.m.
Where: Foley’s New York Pub & Restaurant, 18 W. 33rd Street (near 5th Ave.)
Why: Half the money from drinks poured by Cashman will go to Ed Randall’s Bat For The Cure
It’s a great idea for a fundraiser and a great cause. If you’re in the area, I hope you’ll check it out.
* I found the picture of the Yankees glasses here.
Oh good – maybe Brian will pour me whatever it was he was drinking when he thought offering Pavano a contract was a good idea.
Gotta admit – the guy is brave.
When did Cashman offer Pavano a contract?
Save the prostate! Livers be damned!
i rarely drink, but where can i find those shot glasses!
impressive.
you make a wonderful addition to my mini-collection
BoJo January 21st, 2011 at 12:17 pm
Chip:
1. Whether or not you likeWAR is immaterial to the trend that it is being accepted more and more by voters as a key indicators of value and contribution. I said earlier that I would look at lifetime WAR and average annual WAR to determine if a player is worthy for HOF–thus eliminating the average player over a long period of time issue. Jones passes both criteris.
2. The reason why WAR is such a good measure is because it was created precisely for the purpose of comparing players across eras to peers. There is no better stat, not actaully any other stat that does it so well.
3. It will continue to grow in importance because most of the voters are pretty lazy and can be swayed by peer pressure IMO.
————————-
Bojo –
You’re right – whether I like WAR or not is immaterial – my point wasn’t about WAR though it was about relying solely on one stat (any stat) to make your argument. Just as I wouldn’t say a guy like Mac should be in the hall of fame based soley on his HR numbers I wouldn’t say a guy should be kept out of it based solely on WAR.
As for comparing guys across era’s it will always be flawed because we’ll never know for certain how guys like Ruth or Cobb would have fared against players of color nor will we know how a player from today would have fared in the days pre-expansion when there were a lot fewer bad players.
And finally – the laziness argument doesn’t really wash with me. While I agree with the premise a guy shouldn’t get to the Hall of Fame because other voters are tired of listening to Keith Law whine about WAR and VORP
Cash actually seems like a pretty cool guy.
I’m pretty bummed that is going to rain all day tomorrow. The Fantasy Camp games are in the morning.
Cashman is the most interesting man in the world
Jones has 70+ fWAR
He offered a one year deal. I dont like Pavano, but that wouldnt have beent the worst thing in the world. if he failed, he would be gone. I think Cash was pretty sure Pavano would never come back to NY.
If you look at Jones’ WAR he is arguably the best defensive CF of all time…
Cashman getting ready for his next job
Jones has all the symptoms of a man who was on steroids and now isnt.
ac1
I don’t think I agree with the statement that Cashman was pretty sure Pavano would never come back to NY. You don’t talk to a guy’s agent if you don’t really want him.
“Cashman getting ready for his next job”
I’m not sure who I would rather have succeed Cashman, randy or Randy Levine.
Andruw Jones has a career batting average of .256. I don’t want to get into a metrics discussion, but is there another non-pitcher with that low an average in the Hall?
Jones has all the symptoms of a man who was on steroids and now isnt.
–
Thats ok, he can just start doing antler now.
(but seriously explain, he still has all the power he had before, he was never a complete player, he has all the symptoms of someone who was hanging on the precipice of being bad and lost just enough batspeed that it all came tumbling down, and last i checked doing steroids didnt increase your batspeed)
REPOST
Alex Rodriguez (34) 101.90
Albert Pujols (30) 83.80
Chipper Jones (38) 80.10 B
Derek Jeter (36) 70.1
Jim Thome (39) 70.30 L
Jim Edmonds (40) 68.30 L
Ivan Rodriguez (38) 67.70 R
Manny Ramirez (38) 67.50 R
Scott Rolen (35) 66.10 R
Andruw Jones (33) 59.90 R
Vladimir Guerrero (35) 59.20 R
Bobby Abreu (36) 58.20 L
Todd Helton (36) 57.90 L
Carlos Beltran (33) 56.50 B
Ichiro Suzuki (36) 55.20
Roy Halladay (33) 54.3
Mariano Rivera (40) 52.9
PotentialFuture
Joe Mauer
CC Sabathia
Felix Hernandez
Adrian Beltre
Sweet Swinging Cano January 21st, 2011 at 12:33 pm
Beltran doesn’t belong in the hof.
+++++++++++++
My whole point is I would like to see the subjectivity taken out of the voting, and therefore use the WAR and AAWAR as the criteria. If I am to be true to that, Beltran has to go in becuase he added so much value compared to his peers. His lifetime WAR is right on border of my cut off, but he is ahead of more than 50 HOFers (rough count)
REPOST
I’m not os sure that the Wells contract is so bad anymore…Seems like the market has caught up to it, and contracts to Werth and Crawford make his more palatable.
He posted a 3.4 WAR last year and was paid about $15.5M…where the calculatios say he was worth $18M.
If he continues to rebound, he may actually be considered a good value.
“If you look at Jones’ WAR he is arguably the best defensive CF of all time”
It does. But was he that long enough? His dWAR at the end of 2006 is higher than it is now.
He had some terrific seasons, but the past 4 seasons, at ages 30 thru 33, he’s been decidedly below average in every regard.
Jerkface,
While no expert, I do believe steroids increase bat speed by adding strength making one more able to pull the 30+ oz. bat through the hitting zone.
austinmac January 21st, 2011 at 12:40 pm
Andruw Jones has a career batting average of .256. I don’t want to get into a metrics discussion, but is there another non-pitcher with that low an average in the Hall?
+++++++++++++
Yes
http://www.baseball-reference......ting.shtml
While no expert, I do believe steroids increase bat speed by adding strength making one more able to pull the 30+ oz. bat through the hitting zone.
–
Bulking up doesn’t increase agility and quickness.
maybe Jones just needs to do bacon…its a natural source of caffeine…or so I have heard
Speak of the devil I’m about to do some bacon right now.
never been to Foley’s, but for some reason have a feeling that I would hate it there…
please tend a dive bar in the village, Cash!
Mell January 21st, 2011 at 12:43 pm
“If you look at Jones’ WAR he is arguably the best defensive CF of all time”
It does. But was he that long enough? His dWAR at the end of 2006 is higher than it is now.
He had some terrific seasons, but the past 4 seasons, at ages 30 thru 33, he’s been decidedly below average in every regard.
++++++++++++
Doesn’t matter…In fact, the beauty of WAR is that it can be negative…
BoJo,
My quick look through the Hall of Fame list appeared top show only Killebrew as the only non-pitcher with such a low average. When he got in the Hall he was top 5 in home runs.
Did I miss anyone?
jerkface is right. You are born with a given amount of fast-twitch muscle fibers and there is nothing you can do to change that.
austinmac January 21st, 2011 at 12:49 pm
BoJo,
My quick look through the Hall of Fame list appeared top show only Killebrew as the only non-pitcher with such a low average. When he got in the Hall he was top 5 in home runs.
Did I miss anyone?
++++++++++++
Yes
Repost:sorry this is off-topic but I posted in previous thread when Morrow was brought up,so here it is. Just to be topically correct,I’ll say if jones can remotely resemble himself during his prime yrs I’m all for it,but I doubt that based on what I’ve seen.Guy was the best center fielder I ever saw.
J. Alfred Prufrock January 21st, 2011 at 12:47 pm
This comment below on Brandon Morrow is Chip’s, I believe. But the link below isn’t necessarily intended for him.The debate about Morrow during his Seattle tenure is eerily reminiscent of the Joba wars waged on Yankee blogs.
To me,Brandon Morrow is a cautionary tale on giving up too soon on a pitcher with upside/starter potential.
———————
I tend to agree on Morrow – I think within a couple of years Morrow will be considered on a level with young guys like Lester, Felix and Johnson.
Personally – I would be willing to absorb the Wells deal if it got me Morrow.
////
Joba may be the Brandon of to Morrow:
http://bleacherreport.com/arti…..rs-bullpen
Brandon Morrow should be kept around in the 2009 MLB off-season to be groomed as the team’s future closer.
Morrow has been the subject of fan dismay for the past few seasons. After being drafted a handful of spots ahead of 2008 Cy Young Award winner Tim Lincecum, then bouncing between the bullpen and the starting rotation—by both his own and the front office’s volition—he’s become a target for frustration.
I even wrote an article early in the season, claiming that he’d started his own clock on his departure upon re-joining the bullpen.
That still stands true.
Blogs and traditional journalism outlets have called for an off-season trade. Morrow may still have value disproportionate to the results he’s produced, based solely on his immense physical talent.
Morrow sports a mid-90s fastball, and developing off-speed pitches. Though he’s exiting his traditional prospect years, baseball traditionalists will note that most pitchers don’t reach their athletic prime until their late-20s or even their early-30s in some cases.
But it would be a huge mistake if the Mariners traded him this off-season for something comparable to his present value.
The mishandling of Morrow is something that has not gone understated, but is perhaps underestimated. …………….”
“The logic, at least in the case of Morrow, is that while two years ago his value may have been at its peak, that doesn’t mean it can’t rise from the valley it is in.
And ultimately the potential return on Morrow, even if he leaves with no compensation, is probably more valuable than any prospect he’d be traded for right now.
If all goes well, he’d eventually be replaced by Joshua Fields, as the Mariners continue to cycle through relief pitchers, exploiting a flaw in the market valuation of closers.”
Schaulk
Bill McKechnie
Burleigh Grimes
BoJo January 21st, 2011 at 12:42 pm
+++++++++++++
My whole point is I would like to see the subjectivity taken out of the voting, and therefore use the WAR and AAWAR as the criteria. If I am to be true to that, Beltran has to go in becuase he added so much value compared to his peers. His lifetime WAR is right on border of my cut off, but he is ahead of more than 50 HOFers (rough count
——————–
But isn’t the notion of giving more weight to one stat over any other bit of information in and of itself subjective?
Chip January 21st, 2011 at 12:53 pm
BoJo January 21st, 2011 at 12:42 pm
+++++++++++++
My whole point is I would like to see the subjectivity taken out of the voting, and therefore use the WAR and AAWAR as the criteria. If I am to be true to that, Beltran has to go in becuase he added so much value compared to his peers. His lifetime WAR is right on border of my cut off, but he is ahead of more than 50 HOFers (rough count
——————–
But isn’t the notion of giving more weight to one stat over any other bit of information in and of itself subjective?
++++++++++++++
Not if that stat was created almost expressly for the purpose of determing the career value of a player copmpared to peers and across eras/
This is the point that many of you seem to be missing. The WAR stat is unlike any other stat. It was designed to basically answer the question which HOF admittance is supposedly based upon…how did a player perform against their peers in that era? It adjusts for basically all factors…ballpark, era…competition….etc.
It is not just another stat like HRs, hits, or wins
“He posted a 3.4 WAR last year and was paid about $15.5M…where the calculatios say he was worth $18M”
Kinda shoots down the theory shared by many that Crawford’s new contract is ridiculous. Using the same criteria, he’s been worth and average of $26.4M the last two years. This mean his $21M per season contract is actually reasonable?
Also worth noting that Wells last 4 seasons under the current contract call for three years of $21M and one at $23M. He’s going to have to go a good distance beyond 3.5 WAR to earn that scratch.
BoJo,
I see no one else that didn’t get in for other reason, pitching, ownership or managing with a lower average. I know Grimes was a pitcher since he was the last legal spitballer in the majors.
Mell January 21st, 2011 at 12:59 pm
You can bet that GMs and agents are looking at WAR to negotiate.
austinmac January 21st, 2011 at 12:59 pm
BoJo,
I see no one else that didn’t get in for other reason, pitching, ownership or managing with a lower average. I know Grimes was a pitcher since he was the last legal spitballer in the majors.
++++++++++++
My bad…I was thinking of–get this–Smokey Burgess.(?) Go figure.
austinmac January 21st, 2011 at 12:59 pm
BoJo,
I see no one else that didn’t get in for other reason, pitching, ownership or managing with a lower average. I know Grimes was a pitcher since he was the last legal spitballer in the majors.
++++++++++++++++
Schaulk
Bill McKechnie
_____________
And it doesn’t really matter since BA will not be the primary stat voters look at in the future. That day is past
Wells contracts going forward
2011 $26,642,857
2012 $24.643
2013 $24.643
2014 $24.643
Needs a WAR of about 3.7 per year to justify it. THe only question in my mind is will he stay healthy? Close call…
Have to head out…see you all later.
“Needs a WAR of about 3.7 per year to justify it. THe only question in my mind is will he stay healthy? Close call…”
How much are you assigning to a marginal win?
I’m really wondering exactly why we haven’t signed Jeremy Bonderman. Why not take the risk? It could be a nice payoff and if it doesn’t work, then we’re in the same exact situation we’re in now…
Sack up Cashman!
“Sack up Cashman!”
Why Cashman? If the owners wanted him, they’d sign him.
Jeremy Bonderman’s online account spotted
@ JAP that definitely ran through my head when Morrow’s name was brought it. It is similar to the Joba situation . I’m sure Seattle would like to have him back now at the top of the rotation. They would still lose games because the team sucks but King and Morrow 1-2 would have been deadly.
BoJo January 21st, 2011 at 1:00 pm
Mell January 21st, 2011 at 12:59 pm
You can bet that GMs and agents are looking at WAR to negotiate.
————————–
It’s the flavor of the month. A few years ago it was OPS, before that OBP, before that BA before that it was something else…
Rich in NJ,
I think by and large Cash is still running the show.
I am fine with adding Soriano, the price aside. But then why keep Joba? Either start him or trade him…if they turn him into a “righty specialist” or some BS like that then they’re wasting trade value.
Add Bonderman, take the risk, let Nova and Joba battle for the 5th spot. If Joba loses, trade him.
And to reiterate, I’m still highly annoyed with Pettitte pulling the Favre. Make up your mind dude.
Rich in NJ January 21st, 2011 at 1:10 pm
How much are you assigning to a marginal win?
++++++++++++++
On Dec 9, 2009, the purported market value for 1.0 WAR is $4.5 million. I seem to recall seeing it was up to $6.5M recently but can’t find source.
Prufrock and Against All Odds January 21st, 2011 at 1:19 pm
@ JAP that definitely ran through my head when Morrow’s name was brought it. It is similar to the Joba situation . I’m sure Seattle would like to have him back now at the top of the rotation. They would still lose games because the team sucks but King and Morrow 1-2 would have been deadly.
_______
Exactly what I was thinking. No, we don’t get to have Morrow who Toronto rehabilitated off Seattle’s scrap heap. Sorry, Yanks, you need to develop your own embryonic arms. When the going gets rough, keep teaching, don’t relegate to relief too hastily.
Against All Odds January 21st, 2011 at 1:19 pm
@ JAP that definitely ran through my head when Morrow’s name was brought it. It is similar to the Joba situation . I’m sure Seattle would like to have him back now at the top of the rotation. They would still lose games because the team sucks but King and Morrow 1-2 would have been deadly.
////
I’m sure they would, lol. It amuses me that certain commenters here salivate over someone else’s raw arm that a team had patience with & they fantasize about getting him (fat chance) but they’re lecturing other posters about the Yankees having given it the good ‘ole college try with Chamberlain,who they want to trade or whom they are content to let dissipate in the bullpen.Freakin’ stunning logic in play,there.
if this is the same WAR rating that said jones should be paid $4.5M-$6M then you need to cut that dollar figure in half.
“If you look at Jones’ WAR he is arguably the best defensive CF of all time…”
I’d be very careful using dWAR to make HOF judgments. The theory underlying the dWAR calculation is still very much the subject of debate. Also, there are very, very few players in the Hall for their defense. Those that are were put in by the Veterans Committee, and Veterans Committee picks are pretty frowned upon by statheads (those who otherwise might be pushing dWAR). In fact, the VC structure was reconstituted because of the controversies around their selections.
“if this is the same WAR rating that said jones should be paid $4.5M-$6M then you need to cut that dollar figure in half.”
This is a common misconception. Using WAR figures, Jones can reasonably be expected to be worth between $3M and $6M. What he should be paid is a different question entirely and is driven by the market. Generally clubs will try to pay players less than they are worth. The market will determine what the salary actually is.
In Jones’ case, he got $2M + $1.2M in incentives. I haven’t seen what those incentives are, but if they are reasonably achievable then he’ll get $3.2M, at the low end of the range that WAR says he’s worth.
So a reasonable deal for both sides.
Btw, still find the Rays’ signing of Damon interesting. He doesn’t fit their prototype LF, even in that short LF. I get replacing some lost lefty batting, but can’t see Damon running around out there at the Trop, even with BJ helping him out. No pop for a DH. You have to think Rays will sign middle of lineup bat still in Manny, Vlad, no? Also you have to think Jennings will be up sooner than later. Plus plus defender, and curiously batted better vs. lefties in his limited stint up. I really want to see them give Jennings a shot.
As for us and Damon, I am not going to miss his average/below average fielding. Though he would have been a nice option bat-wise. However, Jones stats look damn good vs. lefties, and even a slowed down Jones will field better than Damon.
Exactly what I was thinking. No, we don’t get to have Morrow who Toronto rehabilitated off Seattle’s scrap heap. Sorry, Yanks, you need to develop your own embryonic arms. When the going gets rough, keep teaching, don’t relegate to relief too hastily.
///
& I’m not assuming the career paths will be identical,the point is you have to take the gamble with potential, & it’s thoroughly disappointing that the yankees either won’t do this or just don’t know how to do this,even when the potential is high & even,as in the case with Joba,when the pitcher has some very impressive document of success in the majors.I wish I could fast forward to a couple of yrs from now to see if they can manage not to bungle Betances and Banuelos at the first hint of trouble,if they even make it that far without getting traded.
Against All Odds January 21st, 2011 at 1:19 pm
@ JAP that definitely ran through my head when Morrow’s name was brought it. It is similar to the Joba situation . I’m sure Seattle would like to have him back now at the top of the rotation. They would still lose games because the team sucks but King and Morrow 1-2 would have been deadly.
——————-
The difference (IMNSHO) between Joba and Morrow is two-fold:
1. In Toronto no one can hear you scream. They could be very patient with Morrow growing into a starter because no one expects them to compete. As great as Morrow is becoming there were times he absolutely stunk last year. I don’t believe Yankee fans would be as forgiving.
2. The injury issue. Morrow’s conversion was relatively seemless in that regard – no injuries, the Jays handled it properly and Morrow responded. Joba’s shoulder has a lot of folks in Yankee land worried if you believe the media.
That said – I was furious at Cashman for not trumping the Brandon League offer by getting in there with Robertson or another prospect for Morrow.
yankeefeminista January 21st, 2011 at 1:28 pm
Prufrock and Against All Odds January 21st, 2011 at 1:19 pm
@ JAP that definitely ran through my head when Morrow’s name was brought it. It is similar to the Joba situation . I’m sure Seattle would like to have him back now at the top of the rotation. They would still lose games because the team sucks but King and Morrow 1-2 would have been deadly.
_______
Exactly what I was thinking. No, we don’t get to have Morrow who Toronto rehabilitated off Seattle’s scrap heap. Sorry, Yanks, you need to develop your own embryonic arms. When the going gets rough, keep teaching, don’t relegate to relief too hastily.
——————–
Well that’s just it – with the Yankee resources (money) they in fact can go out and get other players from other teams.
Would Toronto want to trade Morrow or Romero? Nope. But if you’re willing to take Vernon Wells off their hands they darn well might think about it.
The Mad Prince in Pinstripes
“I think by and large Cash is still running the show.”
I think he’s the primary advisor, but I have a hard time believing, given his public statements since 2006, that he would, for example, really want to sacrifice Montero for three months of Lee.
_
I also don’t see Pettitte as Favre. The latter was in and out and in. Pettitte has said virtually nothing about his plans.
Wow- Really slim pickings left out there
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/ne.....cker110810
BoJo
“On Dec 9, 2009, the purported market value for 1.0 WAR is $4.5 million. I seem to recall seeing it was up to $6.5M recently but can’t find source.”
That’s seems awfully high for most markets, but ok.
Patrick January 21st, 2011 at 12:35 pm
If you look at Jones’ WAR he is arguably the best defensive CF of all time.
_______
Then I would say WAR is pretty accurate, in this case.
Jones was a great CF.
The difference (IMNSHO) between Joba and Morrow is two-fold:
1. In Toronto no one can hear you scream. They could be very patient with Morrow growing into a starter because no one expects them to compete. As great as Morrow is becoming there were times he absolutely stunk last year. I don’t believe Yankee fans would be as forgiving.
2. The injury issue. Morrow’s conversion was relatively seemless in that regard – no injuries, the Jays handled it properly and Morrow responded. Joba’s shoulder has a lot of folks in Yankee land worried if you believe the media.
That said – I was furious at Cashman for not trumping the Brandon League offer by getting in there with Robertson or another prospect for Morrow.
///
The shoulder is a non-starter (no pun intended).He increased his velocity too much last season to run with that narrative. You’re furious with Cashman for not bringing Morrow here? Why? SO they could declare his stuff “plays better” in the BP when they realize they don’t know how to develop starters who need guidance?
I don’t care to hear about Toronto not “needing” to win,Joba would be a Number Four starter,& they can’t afford to let him pitch?He’d be a Five is Pettitte returns.What’s going to happen – the mound blows up if he starts evey five days? Please,the yankees are full of crap.they are just full of it.Unless Joba has some mysterious disorder or is an alien,or some other nefarious issue, their position on this just points to their own incompetence.THey need an effin’ starter & it can’t be him. Yet he was “in the running” to start as recently as last ST.Bleep you,Cashman.
“If you look at Jones’ WAR he is arguably the best defensive CF of all time.
_______
Then I would say WAR is pretty accurate, in this case.
Better than Richie Ashburn or Willie Mays? How about Bob (Death to Flying Things) Ferguson?
yankeefeminista January 21st, 2011 at 1:41 pm
Patrick January 21st, 2011 at 12:35 pm
If you look at Jones’ WAR he is arguably the best defensive CF of all time.
_______
Then I would say WAR is pretty accurate, in this case.
////
I can’t speak about all time,since I wasn’t around,but I have yet to see a CF who even approaches Jones’ abilities in CF.He was just that dazzling good.This guy was practically in the SS’s lap,and he’d go back like a streak of light to effortlessly pull in the ball near the wall.Nobody else does that,did that.Not in my yrs of watching baseball, least ways.
2. The injury issue. Morrow’s conversion was relatively seemless in that regard – no injuries, the Jays handled it properly and Morrow responded. Joba’s shoulder has a lot of folks in Yankee land worried if you believe the media.
–
The Mariners moved Morrow from the bullpen to the rotation and vice versa midseason in 08 and 09. The Jays just took Morrow and started him right off. The Yankees can do the same thing if they just make Joba a starter now.
The conventionally accepted value of 1.0 WAR is around $4.5M:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11.....score.html
However, that is context neutral. Leverage can come into play.
Chip January 21st, 2011 at 1:38 pm
yankeefeminista January 21st, 2011 at 1:28 pm
Prufrock and Against All Odds January 21st, 2011 at 1:19 pm
@ JAP that definitely ran through my head when Morrow’s name was brought it. It is similar to the Joba situation . I’m sure Seattle would like to have him back now at the top of the rotation. They would still lose games because the team sucks but King and Morrow 1-2 would have been deadly.
_______
Exactly what I was thinking. No, we don’t get to have Morrow who Toronto rehabilitated off Seattle’s scrap heap. Sorry, Yanks, you need to develop your own embryonic arms. When the going gets rough, keep teaching, don’t relegate to relief too hastily.
——————–
Well that’s just it – with the Yankee resources (money) they in fact can go out and get other players from other teams.
Would Toronto want to trade Morrow or Romero? Nope. But if you’re willing to take Vernon Wells off their hands they darn well might think about it.
________
Well, Yankees resources haven’t proven so in terms of dealing for young pitchers that other teams develop. And this is the whole point of the argument to develop ones own. Besides cost, these young “developed” pitchers are more and more being locked up by teams. Look at King Felix; we can call the Mariners ad nauseam, but that doesn’t mean they will deal him. We only weaken ourselves and have to sign FA players who are at their peak or trending downward. And sometimes, like Lee, they say no.
Hmmm. Not sure that the Jays would even deal Morrow in order to dump Wells contract. I wouldn’t. Would you? And they certainly would never deal him to us.
J. Alfred Prufrock January 21st, 2011 at 1:43 pm
The difference (IMNSHO) between Joba and Morrow is two-fold:
1. In Toronto no one can hear you scream. They could be very patient with Morrow growing into a starter because no one expects them to compete. As great as Morrow is becoming there were times he absolutely stunk last year. I don’t believe Yankee fans would be as forgiving.
2. The injury issue. Morrow’s conversion was relatively seemless in that regard – no injuries, the Jays handled it properly and Morrow responded. Joba’s shoulder has a lot of folks in Yankee land worried if you believe the media.
That said – I was furious at Cashman for not trumping the Brandon League offer by getting in there with Robertson or another prospect for Morrow.
///
The shoulder is a non-starter (no pun intended).He increased his velocity too much last season to run with that narrative. You’re furious with Cashman for not bringing Morrow here? Why? SO they could declare his stuff “plays better” in the BP when they realize they don’t know how to develop starters who need guidance?
I don’t care to hear about Toronto not “needing” to win,Joba would be a Number Four starter,& they can’t afford to let him pitch?He’d be a Five is Pettitte returns.What’s going to happen – the mound blows up if he starts evey five days? Please,the yankees are full of crap.they are just full of it.Unless Joba has some mysterious disorder or is an alien,or some other nefarious issue, their position on this just points to their own incompetence.THey need an effin’ starter & it can’t be him. Yet he was “in the running” to start as recently as last ST.Bleep you,Cashman.
—————————
Be careful how far you go with the velocity argument.
For one thing Radar Guns lie (I saw Jamie Moyer post a 92 on one early last year)
For another – gassing it out at 98 mph for one 15 – 20 pitch inning doesn’t mean that he can maintain that performance for 115 pitches over 6 innings.
As for Morrow – you’re probably right – the Yankees might well have bungled him too if they got him. Let’s just be greatful that they didn’t go into last season thinking that both Joba AND HUGHES played better in the pen.
I for one will give them a little benefit of the doubt here that there is something structurally up with Joba that they don’t think he can hold up or they are waiting for him to show some actual interest in competing for the job rather than having it simply handed to him.
Rich in NJ January 21st, 2011 at 1:42 pm
Jones was a great CF.
///
I would say Jones redefined “great”. Gutierrez is “great.” Jones was in a league of his own.
# yankeefeminista January 21st, 2011 at 1:28 pm
Prufrock and Against All Odds January 21st, 2011 at 1:19 pm
@ JAP that definitely ran through my head when Morrow’s name was brought it. It is similar to the Joba situation . I’m sure Seattle would like to have him back now at the top of the rotation. They would still lose games because the team sucks but King and Morrow 1-2 would have been deadly.
_______
Exactly what I was thinking. No, we don’t get to have Morrow who Toronto rehabilitated off Seattle’s scrap heap. Sorry, Yanks, you need to develop your own embryonic arms. When the going gets rough, keep teaching, don’t relegate to relief too hastily.
—————————————————-
Exactly don’t banish the kid to the BP just because you feel that the process of developing Joba isn’t worth the time to go through the growing pains. Now if the reason he’s in the pen is because he won’t hold up as a starter then fine we can all come to terms with that but if that’s not the case there is no reason why he shouldn’t get a shot in the rotation.
Chip January 21st, 2011 at 1:36 pm
Against All Odds January 21st, 2011 at 1:19 pm
@ JAP that definitely ran through my head when Morrow’s name was brought it. It is similar to the Joba situation . I’m sure Seattle would like to have him back now at the top of the rotation. They would still lose games because the team sucks but King and Morrow 1-2 would have been deadly.
——————-
The difference (IMNSHO) between Joba and Morrow is two-fold:
1. In Toronto no one can hear you scream. They could be very patient with Morrow growing into a starter because no one expects them to compete. As great as Morrow is becoming there were times he absolutely stunk last year. I don’t believe Yankee fans would be as forgiving.
2. The injury issue. Morrow’s conversion was relatively seemless in that regard – no injuries, the Jays handled it properly and Morrow responded. Joba’s shoulder has a lot of folks in Yankee land worried if you believe the media.
That said – I was furious at Cashman for not trumping the Brandon League offer by getting in there with Robertson or another prospect for Morrow.
________
Let’s face it; the Yanks are clueless about developing pitchers. For all you/we know, Cashman agreed with Seattle’s assessment and didn’t want another Joba headache on his hands. Therefore, he undervalued Morrow.
For one thing Radar Guns lie (I saw Jamie Moyer post a 92 on one early last year)
–
A radar gun might misread a pitch, but if you say all radar guns lie then we can still use their values as relative to everyone recorded by the gun. I wouldn’t use one errant pitch to throw out a whole collection of data.
yankeefeminista January 21st, 2011 at 1:47 pm
________
Well, Yankees resources haven’t proven so in terms of dealing for young pitchers that other teams develop. And this is the whole point of the argument to develop ones own. Besides cost, these young “developed” pitchers are more and more being locked up by teams. Look at King Felix; we can call the Mariners ad nauseam, but that doesn’t mean they will deal him. We only weaken ourselves and have to sign FA players who are at their peak or trending downward. And sometimes, like Lee, they say no.
Hmmm. Not sure that the Jays would even deal Morrow in order to dump Wells contract. I wouldn’t. Would you? And they certainly would never deal him to us.
————————–
I agree with you in that the free agent market is getting thinner and thinner – but there are still often good young pitchers available:
CC Sabathia
Max Scherzer
Zach Greinke
all guys under 30 who have changed teams over the last year
and then there are the veterans: Halladay, Lee, Oswalt
So yes, developing prospects is imperative but as I believe it was Stick who once said, “not every prospect we develop is developed with the intent of playing for the Yankees.”
As for whether the Jays would deal Morrow to get out from Wells’s contract – I don’t know.
In somewhat similar circumstances the Marlins dealt Beckett to unload Lowell. Toronto could do a lot with that extra 20 mil and they are pretty deep with young SP.
# J. Alfred Prufrock January 21st, 2011 at 1:29 pm
Against All Odds January 21st, 2011 at 1:19 pm
@ JAP that definitely ran through my head when Morrow’s name was brought it. It is similar to the Joba situation . I’m sure Seattle would like to have him back now at the top of the rotation. They would still lose games because the team sucks but King and Morrow 1-2 would have been deadly.
////
I’m sure they would, lol. It amuses me that certain commenters here salivate over someone else’s raw arm that a team had patience with & they fantasize about getting him (fat chance) but they’re lecturing other posters about the Yankees having given it the good ‘ole college try with Chamberlain,who they want to trade or whom they are content to let dissipate in the bullpen.Freakin’ stunning logic in play,there.
———————————-
You know how it is the grass is always greener on the other side lol. The ones that want him traded I’m not completely against because it might do him some good to get out of NY. But I agree with you on the ones that want him to stay in the pen lol WTF. He’s the 6th arm out of the bullpen are these ppl serious. If he was the 8th inning guy then ok you have an argument but he’d be pitching the 5th or at best the 6th inning SMH
Chip,
I for one will give them a little benefit of the doubt here that there is something structurally up with Joba that they don’t think he can hold up or *they are waiting for him to show some actual interest in competing for the job rather than having it simply handed to him.*
______
The structural aspect may or may not have validity. However, with all due respect, what is your source for your second point. How do you know Joba hasn’t shown actual interest in competing for the job??? I thought Joba competed very well in the 2009 preseason. Let’s just hope the Yankees have learned from their disastrous Joba experiment.
# J. Alfred Prufrock January 21st, 2011 at 1:35 pm
Exactly what I was thinking. No, we don’t get to have Morrow who Toronto rehabilitated off Seattle’s scrap heap. Sorry, Yanks, you need to develop your own embryonic arms. When the going gets rough, keep teaching, don’t relegate to relief too hastily.
///
& I’m not assuming the career paths will be identical,the point is you have to take the gamble with potential, & it’s thoroughly disappointing that the yankees either won’t do this or just don’t know how to do this,even when the potential is high & even,as in the case with Joba,when the pitcher has some very impressive document of success in the majors.I wish I could fast forward to a couple of yrs from now to see if they can manage not to bungle Betances and Banuelos at the first hint of trouble,if they even make it that far without getting traded.
——————-
I hope they don’t but it wouldn’t surprise me if one or two or the B’s were thrown off course in someway. The Yankees don’t have a good track record at developing. Cashman and co. have done a good job at collecting the assets but the next step is properly infusing the talent into thr ML club.
Against All Odds,
I also prefer Joba were traded. Give him a shot elsewhere to start. Although, he is at his lowest value; therefore, the return wouldn’t be worth much.
yankeefeminista January 21st, 2011 at 1:53 pm
Chip January 21st, 2011 at 1:36 pm
Against All Odds January 21st, 2011 at 1:19 pm
@ JAP that definitely ran through my head when Morrow’s name was brought it. It is similar to the Joba situation . I’m sure Seattle would like to have him back now at the top of the rotation. They would still lose games because the team sucks but King and Morrow 1-2 would have been deadly.
——————-
The difference (IMNSHO) between Joba and Morrow is two-fold:
1. In Toronto no one can hear you scream. They could be very patient with Morrow growing into a starter because no one expects them to compete. As great as Morrow is becoming there were times he absolutely stunk last year. I don’t believe Yankee fans would be as forgiving.
2. The injury issue. Morrow’s conversion was relatively seemless in that regard – no injuries, the Jays handled it properly and Morrow responded. Joba’s shoulder has a lot of folks in Yankee land worried if you believe the media.
That said – I was furious at Cashman for not trumping the Brandon League offer by getting in there with Robertson or another prospect for Morrow.
________
Let’s face it; the Yanks are clueless about developing pitchers. For all you/we know, Cashman agreed with Seattle’s assessment and didn’t want another Joba headache on his hands. Therefore, he undervalued Morrow.
—————————
I don’t know that I would call them clueless – I do think I would love for them to upgrade the key spot of Pitching Coordinator from Nardi Contreras to someone who actually has a positive track record for developing pitchers (Don Cooper if he becomes available would be nice)
But there’s only so much you can blame on the Yankees. Ian Kennedy for example is a fine National League pitcher – but if you’re going to be successful with his stuff in the AL East then you need to be as refined as Mike Mussina and it’s asking a lot to have a kid be that good. Overall I think it was just a bad pick that I put on the scouts more than the development team (Daniel Bard went a few picks later).
As for Joba – sure the Yankees screwed up. But it’s not on them that Joba shows up fat and out of shape is it?
In the mean time, Hughes, Wang, Robertson, even Aceves – they’ve all been developed by the same system and done very well.
I don’t mind blaming the Yankees for screwing up where they have – but at some point part of it has to go back onto the players themselves.
*almost* prefer
AAO,
Here’s why that’s insincere.If he can’t hold up,why was he in the mix (even if they already had their minds made up) to start LAST ST?? Like they didn’t “know” then that he “can’t” hold up as a starter? They would have had to “discover” this only by him having started since then, & he has not.
It would be one thing if they thought he didn’t have stamina to last 5-6 innings & just used the starter “competition” as a charade to get other teams to trade for him thinking he could start,but they apparently have barely tried to move him, and on top of that, they themselves announce to the free world that he will “never” start….something is off center there. Now his “stuff” plays better in the BP…I really could care less about these other issues which are marginal (like the 4th OF) compared to their MOST PRESSING NEED, a solid starter.I better find out that Joba Chamberlain thinks he’s Teddy Roosevelt (which theoretically wouldn’t prevent him from pitching,but you get the idea) or something at the end of the day.
Wave Your Hat January 21st, 2011 at 1:47 pm
The conventionally accepted value of 1.0 WAR is around $4.5M:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11…..score.html
However, that is context neutral. Leverage can come into play.
+++++++++++++
Not exactly right.
Those were numbers coming off 2009 season, but salaries have gone up since then…and WAR value fluctuates. That is why I beleive the number of $6.5M that I heard recently might be more correct.
@JAP–We must be brothers. Keep up the good Joba fight!
Wave,
I’m not saying Jones should be in the HOF based on his defensive WAR. I was just throwing it out there for consideration because it’s really impressive despite the flaws in the stat. And I know he compiled his numbers over a relatively short period of time but to me that makes it even more impressive.
I don’t know if Jones is a Hall of famer but he’s worth consideration
I really don’t understand the Joba situation. SP are so valuable, and as late as last ST, Joba was given the opportunity to compete for the 5th position.
I don’t think the Yankees did such a terrible job w/ him. He didn’t care to have starts skipped, as was done w/ Phil, so he had innings limited instead.
I am not buying that Joba is lazy/out of shape/out of touch/doesn’t care.
I have to think there is more to the story that we don’t know. It seems so obvious to give him another try.
yankeefeminista January 21st, 2011 at 1:59 pm
Chip,
I for one will give them a little benefit of the doubt here that there is something structurally up with Joba that they don’t think he can hold up or *they are waiting for him to show some actual interest in competing for the job rather than having it simply handed to him.*
______
The structural aspect may or may not have validity. However, with all due respect, what is your source for your second point. How do you know Joba hasn’t shown actual interest in competing for the job??? I thought Joba competed very well in the 2009 preseason. Let’s just hope the Yankees have learned from their disastrous Joba experiment
—————–
None whatsoever – pure speculation.
But don’t you think that given how many people cover the Yankees that if Joba started making calls to Cashman, Girardi and Rothschild saying “look, I want to start, I know what’s gone on this winter and I want to be a starter and help this club, tell me what I have to do.” someone would be reporting it?
Or that Joba’s agent would have leaked something like that to get the conversation going?
“In somewhat similar circumstances the Marlins dealt Beckett to unload Lowell.”
Who’s the Hanley Ramirez you’re sending away???
Devon White was the equal to any center fielder that I ever saw, including, Ashburn, Mays, Mantle, jim Landis and Dwayne Murphy.
Rabbit Maranville is possibly the worst HOF selection in history, along with Tinker. Evers and Chance. Maranville was also a manager but that 23-30 record didn’t help him.
Jim Rice was a pretty terrible selection too…
From WYH’s link:
“Younger players like Longoria, Robinson Cano, Clay Buchholz and Ike Davis provide a great deal of value to their teams, and because they are early in their careers, they cost little. In a sense, they produce a surplus of cash. Young talent that adds wins but is inexpensive has great value and is why teams are hesitant to trade prospects for veterans.”
That’s why everyone should be a prospect hugger to some degree.
The other point about developing your own arms is that frequently these prospects have their best years between 21-27 and then drop off….Many examples of that exist.
If you are trading for these players, you might be getting a pitcher who was burned out by pitching too many innings early…(why I am not a fan of acquiring Felix).
If you have a way to introduce the player into the rotation, you can sometimes catch lightning in a bottle and get the best of that prospect.
And if you have a pipeline of prospects, you can easily swap out the underperformers and let them develop further at AAA.
Even when the player matures later (26 to 30), you are still getting great value out of a player usually under control (Greinke, Johnson, etc).
You almost never get great value or certain performance out of signing FAs over 30 (Johnson, Brown, Vasquez, etc.)
We need to find out how the Twins do it.
Younger players like Longoria, Robinson Cano, Clay Buchholz and Ike Davis
—
One of these is not like the other…
Soriano had the 3rd highest Win Probability Added in the AL last season (just ahead of Bard and behind Soria):
http://www.baseball-reference......ders.shtml
I’m not saying he’s going to repeat that number setting up for the Yanks, but anyone still on the fence or completely opposed to the signing should realize his impact may actually justify the $$$ involved.
Injuries he suffered five or six yrs ago have no bearing today. At best it can frame an argument, but really it’s just not cogent.
If they’re going to put Orlando Cepeda in the HOF, them Rice goes in. The numbers are equal. Cepeda was nothing special in left field or at first base.
Injuries he suffered five or six yrs ago have no bearing today. At best it can frame an argument, but really it’s just not cogent.
–
5 or 6 years ago? He has never had 3 healthy seasons in a row!
I know there are Nardi-haters. However, not sure how Joba’s trials and tribulations are on Nardi. Joba flew through the system (for better or worse) before Nardi even so much as put a fingerprint on him. As for IPK, if you are going to draft a pitcher like him, you have to let him develop/learn what he can do in terms of his command, etc. That type of pitcher is obviously going to take longer to make the leap or otherwise draft solely power arms (which we are doing so much more of now).
I am not a Cash hater, but he promised much more than he has produced. I get that we want to win now, but when we make moves and don’t win now, as in last year. We had better have some pitchers mlb-ready in our system to fall back on, vs. prostrating ourselves before the Cliff Lee’s of the world. I get that we have vastly improved our system and are about 1-2 years away of wallowing in farm riches (if all goes well), but I just don’t want to see us regress. As for those who we have developed, keep doing so. Although I wouldn’t be patting ourselves on the back, RE: our relief pitchers. DRob’s CB is a gift from God, Aceves was a professional pitcher before the Yanks got their paws on him and Wang we screwed up royally. I wouldn’t give us too much credit for Hughes either, he was blowing through the minors b/c of his stuff, but let’s see what we do with him going forward.
I am heading out to work, so I’ll check back for comments later. Bye all.
GB7,
I never said Rice is the ONLY guy not worthy of the HOF, just one of the worst selections.And after looking at Cepeda’s numbers I have to agree, he should not be in the hall of fame.
“Devon White was the equal to any center fielder that I ever saw,”
Ridiculously good defender. Good overall player in general, with OBP being his one notable weakness. Great speed, decent power, could throw pretty well. Fun to watch.
3 Years ago someone was saying,”What happened 3 years ago doesn’t matter!!” He has had TJS and then elbow pain kept him on the DL for most of 08.
yankeefeminista January 21st, 2011 at 2:14 pm
I know there are Nardi-haters. However, not sure how Joba’s trials and tribulations are on Nardi. Joba flew through the system (for better or worse) before Nardi even so much as put a fingerprint on him. As for IPK, if you are going to draft a pitcher like him, you have to let him develop/learn what he can do in terms of his command, etc. That type of pitcher is obviously going to take longer to make the leap or otherwise draft solely power arms (which we are doing so much more of now).
I am not a Cash hater, but he promised much more than he has produced. I get that we want to win now, but when we make moves and don’t win now, as in last year. We had better have some pitchers mlb-ready in our system to fall back on, vs. prostrating ourselves before the Cliff Lee’s of the world. I get that we have vastly improved our system and are about 1-2 years away of wallowing in farm riches (if all goes well), but I just don’t want to see us regress. As for those who we have developed, keep doing so. Although I wouldn’t be patting ourselves on the back, RE: our relief pitchers. DRob’s CB is a gift from God, Aceves was a professional pitcher before the Yanks got their paws on him and Wang we screwed up royally. I wouldn’t give us too much credit for Hughes either, he was blowing through the minors b/c of his stuff, but let’s see what we do with him going forward.
I am heading out to work, so I’ll check back for comments later. Bye all.
————————
Nardi, more than anyone else in the Yankee system was responsible for the Joba development plan
I’d like to see the Yankees become a change up organization instead of a curve ball organization. I used to be a big believer in Nardi but I’m not sure how much value he adds to the organization at this point.
Saying that injuries that have occured 5-6 years ago doesn’t matter just tells me you are fairly ignorant in what it feels like to have major joint injuries.
yankeefeminista January 21st, 2011 at 2:14 pm
I know there are Nardi-haters. However, not sure how Joba’s trials and tribulations are on Nardi. Joba flew through the system (for better or worse) before Nardi even so much as put a fingerprint on him. As for IPK, if you are going to draft a pitcher like him, you have to let him develop/learn what he can do in terms of his command, etc. That type of pitcher is obviously going to take longer to make the leap or otherwise draft solely power arms (which we are doing so much more of now).
++++++++++++++
To me, the question has to be whether IPK should have even been drafted. Cashman has stated that he wants power arms with upside potential because they win play-offs. The draft team should have evaluated IPK based on that as well as how his stuff would translate to pitching in the AL East.
I suppose they thought he was a Mussina clone and if Moose could do it, IPK could. But that is a bad argument to base a #1 pick on.
Soriano’s injury history:
2002: Shoulder strain
2004: Strained oblique, elbow strain, ulnar collateral ligament tear in the elbow resulting in TJ surgery.
-Missed basically all of 2004 and 2005 season
2006: Shoulder fatigue
2008: Elbow tendinitis, elbow inflammation, shoulder soreness, elbow surgery
Primacy-Recency
I’ll take the recency in this case because it’s two solid yrs. His velocity has been consistent (93.3ish for the last 3 seasons, per F/X.)
The fact that he added a cutter to get out lefties is just icing on the cake. A few months w/Mo and who knows how good he gets…
To me, the question has to be whether IPK should have even been drafted. Cashman has stated that he wants power arms with upside potential because they win play-offs. The draft team should have evaluated IPK based on that as well as how his stuff would translate to pitching in the AL East.
–
They drafted a player who is now starting in major league baseball. Seems like the pick was a success.
Jerkface January 21st, 2011 at 2:18 pm
I’d like to see the Yankees become a change up organization instead of a curve ball organization. I used to be a big believer in Nardi but I’m not sure how much value he adds to the organization at this point.
+++++++++
Raise Johnny Sain!
Actually, I like that idea, but also think the curve is imortant. I believe the FB, power curve, and CU combo is the winning formula for a power arm…and I ma not so sure that the Yankees disagree. They do try to teach those 3 pitches to prospects.
Baseball players get hurt. This isn’t exactly a newsflash.
I’ll take the recency in this case because it’s two solid yrs. His velocity has been consistent (93.3ish for the last 3 seasons, per F/X.)
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Two solid years preceded by surgery preceded by 2 solid years preceded by surgery….
Jerkface,
Looking at that injury history makes it pretty clear that injuries which have occurred in the past do have effect years later.
He hurt his shoulder in 2002, re-hurt it in 2006, re-hurt it in 2008.
He tore a ligament in his elbow in 2004, it still hurt 4 years later.
I guess a lot of people imagine that doctors and surgery cure everything instantly.
Betting on pitchers with a history of arm trouble is a big risk.
Rich in NJ January 21st, 2011 at 2:09 pm
From WYH’s link:
“Younger players like Longoria, Robinson Cano, Clay Buchholz and Ike Davis provide a great deal of value to their teams, and because they are early in their careers, they cost little. In a sense, they produce a surplus of cash. Young talent that adds wins but is inexpensive has great value and is why teams are hesitant to trade prospects for veterans.”
That’s why everyone should be a prospect hugger to some degree.
———————-
That’s right but it’s also subject to how you determine value.
For the Yankees, a young cost controlled player – Austin Jackson for example – can provide two different values. Could the Yankees have kept Jackson and played him in CF this year? Absolutely. But at the same time they recognized that Curtis Granderson is a better player than Jackson and the Tigers, under budgetary constraints, needed to pare down their payroll and so they used Jackson to get Granderson.
GMs of large market teams look at prospects two ways – there are guys you develop for the big club and guys you develop to trade – the goal is the same – win at the major league level.
Chip,
If Jackson was as good as Cano, Longoria or Bulcholz the Yankees never would have traded him.
The thing I would be looking at with Soriano’s arm injury history is this–how similar is his repertoire now to then? Was he a slider pitcher then (eats up elbows) vs a cutter pitcher now? How often did he throw change and splitter?
I’m too lazy to look it up, but I do believed he changed his approach (heard it somewhere, but can’t recall where).
Cutter and slider is almost the same arm motion….
Jerkface January 21st, 2011 at 2:21 pm
To me, the question has to be whether IPK should have even been drafted. Cashman has stated that he wants power arms with upside potential because they win play-offs. The draft team should have evaluated IPK based on that as well as how his stuff would translate to pitching in the AL East.
–
They drafted a player who is now starting in major league baseball. Seems like the pick was a success.
——————-
Whether he is a major league pitcher or not is irrelevant. Ian Kennedy helped them land Curtis Granderson – that makes the pick a success.
That said, Ian Kennedy was not the right fit for the Yankees. While he’s a starter in the major leagues you are smart enough to know that not every major league situation is the same – just because a guy is a starter on a bad team in the NL West doesn’t mean that he would be a starter on a playoff team in the AL East.
How’s Chris Carpenter’s career going after years of injuries?
Patrick January 21st, 2011 at 2:26 pm
Cutter and slider is almost the same arm motion…
++++++++++++++++
I don’t think so. Also, pitchers like Liriano blew out their arms throwing the slider, but I can’t recall anyone doing that with cutter.
How’s Chris Carpenter’s career going after years of injuries?
—
He missed all of 2007 and 2008 with injuries after being plagued with injuries early in his career.
That said, Ian Kennedy was not the right fit for the Yankees. While he’s a starter in the major leagues you are smart enough to know that not every major league situation is the same – just because a guy is a starter on a bad team in the NL West doesn’t mean that he would be a starter on a playoff team in the AL East.
–
I think you draft players that are likely to reach the majors. As you pointed out, sometimes you keep guys sometimes you trade them. Having a pitcher like Kennedy, who did infact pitch 19 unspectacular but solid innings in 2007, and may have pitched better in 08 had he not been injured and trying to cover it up, is valuable. Other clubs will want him. That means we can trade him.
How’s Chris Carpenter’s career going after years of injuries?
–
Hopefully the Yankees aren’t the ones staring at 21 combined innings over 2 years at some point in a contract, eh?
Jerkface January 21st, 2011 at 2:21 pm
To me, the question has to be whether IPK should have even been drafted. Cashman has stated that he wants power arms with upside potential because they win play-offs. The draft team should have evaluated IPK based on that as well as how his stuff would translate to pitching in the AL East.
–
They drafted a player who is now starting in major league baseball. Seems like the pick was a success.
++++++++++++++
I would agreeif he was a #3 or lower pick, but he was a #1 pick with better players drafted after him. I think a #1 pick needs to be evaluated on becoming a star in your team, not a trade piece.
Bojo,
A cutter is a cross between a slider and a fastball. The grip is a bit different and the arm motion is a bit different than a slider but it’s very similar.
And how do you know guys like Liriano hurt themselves because of the slider? It could be a flaw in their mechanics or just bad luck.
Soriano has not stopped throwing his slider, its a 20% pitch for him his entire career. He dropped his change up and throws less 4seamers, and added the cutter.
I would agreeif he was a #3 or lower pick, but he was a #1 pick with better players drafted after him. I think a #1 pick needs to be evaluated on becoming a star in your team, not a trade piece.
–
I don’t think Bard is a better player. Kennedy will have more value over his career than Bard.
Maybe I’ll order a shot of Jim Beam from Cashman, and ask him just how thorough Soriano’s physical was.
I’m guessing w/the money involved, they have a pretty good idea what condition his shoulder and elbow may be in.
Remember Bard completely failed at being a starter and was coming out of college.
Maybe I’ll order a shot of Jim Beam from Cashman, and ask him just how thorough Soriano’s physical was.
I’m guessing w/the money involved, they have a pretty good idea what condition his shoulder and elbow may be in.
–
Kind of a weak argument, appeal to authority I guess? Teams sign injury prone guys all the time. You think Nick Johnsons physical was good?
Patrick January 21st, 2011 at 2:25 pm
Chip,
If Jackson was as good as Cano, Longoria or Bulcholz the Yankees never would have traded him.
——————————
That’s not necessarily true – prospect evaluation isn’t black and white.
Neftali Feliz and Elvis Andrus – were both traded in the same deal and they weren’t even considered the best prospects in the deal – Saltalamaccia was.
Adrian Gonzalez was traded twice – the second time I believe for Antonio Osuna.
The D’Backs passed on Cano in favor of Dioner Navarro
The Yankees shipped out Mike Lowell because they thought Drew Henson would be the better pro.
Miguel Cabrera was traded for Andrew Miller and Cameron Maybin – both of whom were can’t miss talents at the time.
My point is this – not every successful minor leaguer or prospect is going to develop into a solid pro. Even the best prospects flame out either through injury (Prior and Wood) or they just can’t cut it at this level (Alex Gordon, Josh Fields)
Patrick January 21st, 2011 at 2:31 pm
And how do you know guys like Liriano hurt themselves because of the slider? It could be a flaw in their mechanics or just bad luck.
++++++++++++
I recall reading an article that analyzed the slider last summer and how it discussed the torque put on elbow. Liriano was featured and used as example of problem with it. It went on to talk about how the Yankees discourage their prospects from using it and prefer to teach the curve…(exception being Joba).
On the face of it, getting Soriano is good. I’d be fine with the signing if it was a more team friendly contract. But paying him so much money (and giving him those damn opt-outs) is a HUGE risk based partly on his injury history.
Jerkface January 21st, 2011 at 2:29 pm
That said, Ian Kennedy was not the right fit for the Yankees. While he’s a starter in the major leagues you are smart enough to know that not every major league situation is the same – just because a guy is a starter on a bad team in the NL West doesn’t mean that he would be a starter on a playoff team in the AL East.
–
I think you draft players that are likely to reach the majors. As you pointed out, sometimes you keep guys sometimes you trade them. Having a pitcher like Kennedy, who did infact pitch 19 unspectacular but solid innings in 2007, and may have pitched better in 08 had he not been injured and trying to cover it up, is valuable. Other clubs will want him. That means we can trade him.
——————-
That’s right the Kennedy pick in the end worked out because the Yankees were able to get something of value for him.
CJ Henry pick worked out for much the same reason.
Jerkface January 21st, 2011 at 2:32 pm
I don’t think Bard is a better player. Kennedy will have more value over his career than Bard.
++++++++++++++++
My point here is simply that criteria for a #1 pick should be making the club and being a valuable member, not considering whether the player will be a nice trade chip.
If you think IPK could have had value pitching in the AL East and could have won in play-off games, that’s fine…it justifies a #1 pick. If not, they should have picked someone else.
Bojo,
Fair enough but the fact remains, a cutter is very similar to a slider. Maybe it’s just different enough to prevent more injuries? It’s also less common.
Patrick January 21st, 2011 at 2:29 pm
How’s Chris Carpenter’s career going after years of injuries?
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He missed all of 2007 and 2008 with injuries after being plagued with injuries early in his career.
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He also missed a large portion of 2002 and all of 2003. He seems to have recovered pretty well for a history of arm trouble. So did Al Lieter and John Smoltz.
Chip,
If the Yankees had followed your philosophy Jeter, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera and Williams would all be on different teams and the Yankees would have won zero championships in the 90′s.
GB7,
The point is, if you have a major arm injury you are at greater risk to hurt the arm again or have minor complications like inflammation or pain. Soriano could very well miss a season while on this current 3 year contract, opt out then regain his former brilliance with a different team. And it’s not like the Yankees could say “we never saw this coming!” because we already know that he’s a high injury risk.
Jerkface January 21st, 2011 at 2:31 pm
Soriano has not stopped throwing his slider, its a 20% pitch for him his entire career. He dropped his change up and throws less 4seamers, and added the cutter.
+++++++++++++++
Thanks for looking htat up…does he still throw a splitter at a high rate?
Dropping the change IMO helps his shoulder…throwing fewer sliders protects his elbow…If he is throwing basically 2 seamers and cutters, with 20% sliders, I could see his risk being lower than in th epast.
Pat–If I have time later, I’ll try to locate the slider article for you…have to run out again soon.
Patrick January 21st, 2011 at 2:36 pm
On the face of it, getting Soriano is good. I’d be fine with the signing if it was a more team friendly contract. But paying him so much money (and giving him those damn opt-outs) is a HUGE risk based partly on his injury history.
———————–
I really wouldn’t worry about it.
Signing anyone to a big money deal carries risk with it.
The Yankees gave Soriano a player friendly deal in part because they were asking him to give up the title of closer and accept a lesser role. You have to give to get and that’s how it turned out.
I don’t think the Yankees are going to get burned by this deal. And it gives them the best 1-2 punch since Rivera was setting up Wettleand.
Actually the way it plays out if you look at that 96 pen:
Rivera = Wetteland
Soriano = Rivera
Joba = Jeff Nelson
Feliciano = Greame Lloyd
If you think IPK could have had value pitching in the AL East and could have won in play-off games, that’s fine…it justifies a #1 pick. If not, they should have picked someone else.
—
I don’t think any minor leaguer should be drafted on the basis of “will they win play-off games.” You draft guys who will be major leaguers. Thats where all the value in a draft pick lies. A #1 guy should be a major leaguer. They picked right. I don’t think Bard is the guy whose example you want to use. Maybe we should have got Brett Anderson or Cahill or Andrew Bailey or whatever.
BoJo,
I did like watching Smokey Burgess hit. At one point, he was the all-time pinch hit leader. Gotta like a smallish, stubby guy in the majors. He was built a lot like Yogi.
At least I don’t remember watching Burleigh Grimes.
Nick Johnson had wrist surgery previously. I don’t think it was a case of the doctors missing something w/his physical. It becomes somewhat of a crap shoot post-surgery.
Soriano’s shoulder has never been under the knife. Pointing out time lost for inflammation??? A few freak pitchers never feel pain in their career, but they’re aberrations. Inflammation comes w/the territory.
Dropping the change IMO helps his shoulder…throwing fewer sliders protects his elbow…If he is throwing basically 2 seamers and cutters, with 20% sliders, I could see his risk being lower than in th epast.
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No you misunderstood, he hasn’t altered his rate of throwing sliders at all. He changed how many fastballs he threw and dropped his change up. 70% 4-seamers to 60% and then 3-5% changeups to 0%, and viola 12-15% cutters
I’m sorry I have to run and leave such a good discussion. Always a pleasure gentlemen.
Every pitcher in baseball is at a high risk every time they throw a baseball.
There was no point being made. sounds more like a bunch of BS because Cashman/Steinbrenners signed players that a couple of blowhards on here didn’t want. Same Bs with every deal.
There were few players in the FA and trade markets that made sense for the Yankees this year. Lee didn’t want to come here and neither did Wood. Pettitte has yet to decide.
Soriano’s shoulder has never been under the knife. Pointing out time lost for inflammation??? A few freak pitchers never feel pain in their career, but they’re aberrations. Inflammation comes w/the territory.
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Did you read that? He had elbow surgery, then 2 years later had inflammation missing an entire season and had surgery at the end of the season. it wasn’t a little booboo on his elbow like every athlete is going to feel due to the stress of pro-sports. He had surgery.
Patrick January 21st, 2011 at 2:39 pm
Chip,
If the Yankees had followed your philosophy Jeter, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera and Williams would all be on different teams and the Yankees would have won zero championships in the 90?s.
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That’s a very extreme view of my philosophy.
It would be like me saying that if they followed your philosophy then O’Neill, Knoblauch, Tino, Cone, Clemens, Justice and Wetteland would never have been Yankees and the Yankees would have won zero championships in the 90s.
I’m not saying “trade all prospects” what I’m saying is that you can’t be afraid to trade prospects in the right deal. What defines the “right deal?” That’s determined by what your team needs and what your team has to spare.
The current Yankee organization can spare young pitchers and catchers if it helps them address their needs of starting pitchers at the major league level. I’m not suggesting you trade a top prospect for Jason Marquis – but if I could get – say Brett Myers for Joba and Romine – I would certainly consider it.
Ah yes GB7 gets torn up in debate and now everyones a blow hard spouting BS. Every athlete carries injury risk, but its obvious some carry more than others and deals should be made with that in mind. The Red Sox managed to get a clause in Lackey’s deal where his last year becomes league minimum if he gets injured and the Yankees do the opposite and give Soriano free-run of the place.
# Chip January 21st, 2011 at 1:36 pm
Against All Odds January 21st, 2011 at 1:19 pm
@ JAP that definitely ran through my head when Morrow’s name was brought it. It is similar to the Joba situation . I’m sure Seattle would like to have him back now at the top of the rotation. They would still lose games because the team sucks but King and Morrow 1-2 would have been deadly.
——————-
The difference (IMNSHO) between Joba and Morrow is two-fold:
1. In Toronto no one can hear you scream. They could be very patient with Morrow growing into a starter because no one expects them to compete. As great as Morrow is becoming there were times he absolutely stunk last year. I don’t believe Yankee fans would be as forgiving.
2. The injury issue. Morrow’s conversion was relatively seemless in that regard – no injuries, the Jays handled it properly and Morrow responded. Joba’s shoulder has a lot of folks in Yankee land worried if you believe the media.
That said – I was furious at Cashman for not trumping the Brandon League offer by getting in there with Robertson or another prospect for Morrow.
—————————————————
1. True you can hide in TOR but it’s not the same in NY. The fans might be forgiving..they were forgiving with Hughes last season when he went through a rough patch.
2. Didn’t Morrow deal with velocity issues? Not saying his shoulder was a reason but I thought he did have some problems with his arm.
Yea Brandon League for Morrow…wow. It was definitely a head scratcher that’s for sure.
TJ surgery.
The surgery du joure.
I don’t want to threadjack.
Let’s just see how it plays out. I promise I’ll eat crow if it hits the fan.
Pat–If I have time later, I’ll try to locate the slider article for you…have to run out again soon.
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THanks Bojo, sounds interesting.
TJ surgery.
The surgery du joure.
I don’t want to threadjack.
Let’s just see how it plays out. I promise I’ll eat crow if it hits the fan.
–
Well shouldn’t we let everything play out? I’m enjoying discussing it now. And I’ll probably enjoy discussing it then as well (though hopefully its about how much Soriano helped the bullpen and leading the yankees to a WS)
And he had ulnar nerve transposition and bone spurs cleaned up in 08 after missing nearly the entire year. And he gets shoulder fatigue and elbow soreness. So I wouldn’t be surprised if either of those occurred this year.
# yankeefeminista January 21st, 2011 at 1:47 pm
Chip January 21st, 2011 at 1:38 pm
yankeefeminista January 21st, 2011 at 1:28 pm
Prufrock and Against All Odds January 21st, 2011 at 1:19 pm
@ JAP that definitely ran through my head when Morrow’s name was brought it. It is similar to the Joba situation . I’m sure Seattle would like to have him back now at the top of the rotation. They would still lose games because the team sucks but King and Morrow 1-2 would have been deadly.
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Exactly what I was thinking. No, we don’t get to have Morrow who Toronto rehabilitated off Seattle’s scrap heap. Sorry, Yanks, you need to develop your own embryonic arms. When the going gets rough, keep teaching, don’t relegate to relief too hastily.
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Well that’s just it – with the Yankee resources (money) they in fact can go out and get other players from other teams.
Would Toronto want to trade Morrow or Romero? Nope. But if you’re willing to take Vernon Wells off their hands they darn well might think about it.
________
Well, Yankees resources haven’t proven so in terms of dealing for young pitchers that other teams develop. And this is the whole point of the argument to develop ones own. Besides cost, these young “developed” pitchers are more and more being locked up by teams. Look at King Felix; we can call the Mariners ad nauseam, but that doesn’t mean they will deal him. We only weaken ourselves and have to sign FA players who are at their peak or trending downward. And sometimes, like Lee, they say no.
Hmmm. Not sure that the Jays would even deal Morrow in order to dump Wells contract. I wouldn’t. Would you? And they certainly would never deal him to us.
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That’s the thing they need to do a better job at developing their own players. Cashman mentioned that 5-6 yrs ago but there the Yankees were back on their knees begging an ace to come to their team 2 yrs after getting CC.
Dr. Levine says Soriano will be fine. Not to worry.
Against All Odds January 21st, 2011 at 3:00 pm
# yankeefeminista January 21st, 2011 at 1:47 pm
Chip January 21st, 2011 at 1:38 pm
yankeefeminista January 21st, 2011 at 1:28 pm
Prufrock and Against All Odds January 21st, 2011 at 1:19 pm
@ JAP that definitely ran through my head when Morrow’s name was brought it. It is similar to the Joba situation . I’m sure Seattle would like to have him back now at the top of the rotation. They would still lose games because the team sucks but King and Morrow 1-2 would have been deadly.
_______
Exactly what I was thinking. No, we don’t get to have Morrow who Toronto rehabilitated off Seattle’s scrap heap. Sorry, Yanks, you need to develop your own embryonic arms. When the going gets rough, keep teaching, don’t relegate to relief too hastily.
——————–
Well that’s just it – with the Yankee resources (money) they in fact can go out and get other players from other teams.
Would Toronto want to trade Morrow or Romero? Nope. But if you’re willing to take Vernon Wells off their hands they darn well might think about it.
________
Well, Yankees resources haven’t proven so in terms of dealing for young pitchers that other teams develop. And this is the whole point of the argument to develop ones own. Besides cost, these young “developed” pitchers are more and more being locked up by teams. Look at King Felix; we can call the Mariners ad nauseam, but that doesn’t mean they will deal him. We only weaken ourselves and have to sign FA players who are at their peak or trending downward. And sometimes, like Lee, they say no.
Hmmm. Not sure that the Jays would even deal Morrow in order to dump Wells contract. I wouldn’t. Would you? And they certainly would never deal him to us.
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That’s the thing they need to do a better job at developing their own players. Cashman mentioned that 5-6 yrs ago but there the Yankees were back on their knees begging an ace to come to their team 2 yrs after getting CC.
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A) Not every prospect you try to develop is going to hit.
B) Timing is everything. The Yankees have a lot of talented young pitchers, they’re just a year or two away – that’s the way the ball bounces sometimes.
Chip,
Good point about Tino, Cone, Clemens, etc. I don’t think anyone here is afraid to make trades where prospects are going the other way. I was in favor of the Vazquez and Granderson deals last year. I was not in favor of the possible Lee deal during the summer. I would also not be in favor of a Romine/Joba for Myers deal, that’s a bad idea on so many levels in my opinion.
Dr. Levine says Soriano will be fine. Not to worry.
—
With a name like that we should probably trust his medical opinion.
Is that going to far?
B) Timing is everything. The Yankees have a lot of talented young pitchers, they’re just a year or two away – that’s the way the ball bounces sometimes.
–
This is a good point. I don’t know how many people have read Outliers but its really fun and insightful book. One of the points it makes is that success is not often about ability or talent, but being in the right place at the right time to get the chance to succeed. Kids born in a certain month are older than other kids for their level, so they mature physically first, which makes them better at sports, so then they get picked for the good teams and receive better training thus widening the GAP and they go on to become professional athletes.
The same could be said for prospects on a team. A guy who is at the right point in his development at the right time a team has room in their rotation/batting order has a better chance of succeeding. A guy who is good but with no room to break in might fade away.
Is that going to far?
–
You’re being a reverse-Hitler
a little break from the yanks for some funny mets bashing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmR82553eR8
david wright is human garbage…
I’m reading a book on scouting, which i will share some particular quotes from at a later date as I go through and save them, but one of the points they make is that the advent of the draft and rising cost of minor leagues leading to the shutting down of the vast minor league systems teams like the Cardinals and Yankees had setup has ruined the chances for a lot of MLB talent.
Before you could grab hundreds of players and shove them on teams and they’d play and maybe you’d have guys who struggle but then figure it out at a late age, 27 28 29 30 and get a shot at the big leagues. These players are pushed out because the team sizes have decreased and now teams are focusing on young players only who have a slim time line of development before they are cast aside.
It will be rare the player who can hang around long enough to blossom at a later age. Especially if they don’t have overwhelming physical tools ie Randy Johnson.
a little break from the yanks for some funny mets bashing:
david wright is human garbage…
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Don’t watch this version, get the full quality one and more here: http://www.onionsportsnetwork......eck,18831/
Dr. Randy Levine, that is.
# yankeefeminista January 21st, 2011 at 2:01 pm
Against All Odds,
I also prefer Joba were traded. Give him a shot elsewhere to start. Although, he is at his lowest value; therefore, the return wouldn’t be worth much.
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Yea the return wouldn’t be great but hey you never know. Besides I’m sure if he was moved he would be apart of a package.
austinmac January 21st, 2011 at 2:46 pm
BoJo,
I did like watching Smokey Burgess hit. At one point, he was the all-time pinch hit leader. Gotta like a smallish, stubby guy in the majors. He was built a lot like Yogi.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Smokey Burgess. Now there’s a blast from the past. I had always wanted to see Hoyt Wilhelm pitch and finally I saw it one night at old Memorial Stadium in Baltimore. As members of the White Sox, I got to see Hoyt pitch and Smokey pinch hit all in the same game.
I’m quite certain that Ian Kennedy will be viewed very differently in about 3 years after he keeps winning 15-16 ganes per campaign….As for Andruw Jones being the best glove man in center….He was indeed great, but not as good as Mays or Junior, as they were in a league above great……
# J. Alfred Prufrock January 21st, 2011 at 2:02 pm
AAO,
Here’s why that’s insincere.If he can’t hold up,why was he in the mix (even if they already had their minds made up) to start LAST ST?? Like they didn’t “know” then that he “can’t” hold up as a starter? They would have had to “discover” this only by him having started since then, & he has not.
It would be one thing if they thought he didn’t have stamina to last 5-6 innings & just used the starter “competition” as a charade to get other teams to trade for him thinking he could start,but they apparently have barely tried to move him, and on top of that, they themselves announce to the free world that he will “never” start….something is off center there. Now his “stuff” plays better in the BP…I really could care less about these other issues which are marginal (like the 4th OF) compared to their MOST PRESSING NEED, a solid starter.I better find out that Joba Chamberlain thinks he’s Teddy Roosevelt (which theoretically wouldn’t prevent him from pitching,but you get the idea) or something at the end of the day.
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I hear where you’re coming from JAP because things don’t add up from our point of view and the only thing we have to go on is the information that we read or find out which isn’t alot. The thing that that ppl were kicking around on RAB early in the week is that Chamberlain went to the Yankees and told them he didn’t want to start. Basically the heat he took in 09 was too much to take and it turned him off from starting. Not saying that I agree with it but it’s another opinion in a long line.
Pat M., I think you are right on the mark with regards to Kennedy. And about Jones being a great defensive CF, I’m not suggesting he was truly the greatest ever, I’m just pointing out that certain stats say he is. Whether you agree with them or not (I don’t) is up to you.
Pat, what do you think it would take to get Kennedy back from Arizona in a trade, and do you think it would be worth the deal?
Patrick…..Andruw Jones got lot’s of air time as opposed to Griffey and certainly Willie…As someone pointed out Devon White was outstanding as was Jim Edmonds but neiter were quite on par with Jones in my mind and watched both while they played here in Anaheim…..Actually I always though Griffey was the next greatest baseball player I had ever seen….I never saw Mantle in the 50′s and Willie really peaked in the 60′s and Junior is the only ballplayer that I saw who was comfortable in comparing him with those Legends….He was much better than Bonds by the way….
GB…….Arizona wanted Ian in that trade in fact demanded him for the deal to go thru…….Yanks would faint at the cost and it would be a source of embarrassment that would be played in the press and media…….He’s going to have a very nice career and make around 90 million when it’s all said and done……Towers will have that club in contention in 3 years or less
Griffey better than Bonds? I’m not sure I can agree with that but then again I’m not sure I can say Bonds is better than Griffey. They are both legendary players in my eyes. Bonds was an incredible talent even before he hit the juice
Mantle, as good as he was as a center fielder wasn’t the greatest at judging flies. His greatest asset was the ability to outrun his mistakes, much like Bernie Williams. There was never anybody that played center field that had as much speed as Mantle. He also had as stong an arm as anybody to play with the possible exception of Clemente.
Thanks for the answer on Kennedy, Pat. Was just curious as to what you thought might be the cost and possibilities.
# Jerkface January 21st, 2011 at 2:21 pm
To me, the question has to be whether IPK should have even been drafted. Cashman has stated that he wants power arms with upside potential because they win play-offs. The draft team should have evaluated IPK based on that as well as how his stuff would translate to pitching in the AL East.
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They drafted a player who is now starting in major league baseball. Seems like the pick was a success.
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Except he’s a success for another team. Weren’t they high on him because of his poise and arsenal of pitches but yet he was ridden out of town because of his attitude problems as well as not living up to expectations.
Odds….He was thought of as the more polished and more ready for the bigs than either Hughes or Joba……Keep in mind that he blew thru the organizational levels and was outstanding in September 07 and won and pitched some key games along with Hughes with Joba setting up Mariano …Without them there is no Wild Card…..In fact, the Yanks caught much heat about their decision to shut Ian down as they didn’t included him on the postseason roster……As for the attitude issues, he made one post game comment in 08 that he thought that he didn’t pitch that poorly ( he did ) and was roasted in the media and the Yankee blogs…….Something we accept as normal comments from Joba today……
Except he’s a success for another team.
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He netted us an above average centerfielder with 40 HR potential. Successful draft pick. And if it were not for his unfortunate string of injuries he would have certainly pitched in 09 for the big league club.
# Chip January 21st, 2011 at 3:02 pm
Against All Odds January 21st, 2011 at 3:00 pm
# yankeefeminista January 21st, 2011 at 1:47 pm
Chip January 21st, 2011 at 1:38 pm
yankeefeminista January 21st, 2011 at 1:28 pm
Prufrock and Against All Odds January 21st, 2011 at 1:19 pm
@ JAP that definitely ran through my head when Morrow’s name was brought it. It is similar to the Joba situation . I’m sure Seattle would like to have him back now at the top of the rotation. They would still lose games because the team sucks but King and Morrow 1-2 would have been deadly.
_______
Exactly what I was thinking. No, we don’t get to have Morrow who Toronto rehabilitated off Seattle’s scrap heap. Sorry, Yanks, you need to develop your own embryonic arms. When the going gets rough, keep teaching, don’t relegate to relief too hastily.
——————–
Well that’s just it – with the Yankee resources (money) they in fact can go out and get other players from other teams.
Would Toronto want to trade Morrow or Romero? Nope. But if you’re willing to take Vernon Wells off their hands they darn well might think about it.
________
Well, Yankees resources haven’t proven so in terms of dealing for young pitchers that other teams develop. And this is the whole point of the argument to develop ones own. Besides cost, these young “developed” pitchers are more and more being locked up by teams. Look at King Felix; we can call the Mariners ad nauseam, but that doesn’t mean they will deal him. We only weaken ourselves and have to sign FA players who are at their peak or trending downward. And sometimes, like Lee, they say no.
Hmmm. Not sure that the Jays would even deal Morrow in order to dump Wells contract. I wouldn’t. Would you? And they certainly would never deal him to us.
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That’s the thing they need to do a better job at developing their own players. Cashman mentioned that 5-6 yrs ago but there the Yankees were back on their knees begging an ace to come to their team 2 yrs after getting CC.
—————————
A) Not every prospect you try to develop is going to hit.
B) Timing is everything. The Yankees have a lot of talented young pitchers, they’re just a year or two away – that’s the way the ball bounces sometimes.
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Yes not every prospect you draft is going to hit but at some point the ones you have will need to. Hopefully it is just 1-2 yrs away. I don’t want to hear 1-2 yrs from now hey don’t worry we’re real close give us 3 more yrs. I’m Cashman basher but I’m really starting to question what he’s doing.
# Pat M. January 21st, 2011 at 3:55 pm
Odds….He was thought of as the more polished and more ready for the bigs than either Hughes or Joba……Keep in mind that he blew thru the organizational levels and was outstanding in September 07 and won and pitched some key games along with Hughes with Joba setting up Mariano …Without them there is no Wild Card…..In fact, the Yanks caught much heat about their decision to shut Ian down as they didn’t included him on the postseason roster……As for the attitude issues, he made one post game comment in 08 that he thought that he didn’t pitch that poorly ( he did ) and was roasted in the media and the Yankee blogs…….Something we accept as normal comments from Joba today……
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That’s true I did forget how fast he blew threw the minors as well as being more polished than Hughes and Joba.
I don’t know how it was on Lohud but on the YES board Joba’s comments used to get picked apart every single appearance. I remember ppl getting really upset about his sun will come up tomorrow comments.
# Jerkface January 21st, 2011 at 4:01 pm
Except he’s a success for another team.
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He netted us an above average centerfielder with 40 HR potential. Successful draft pick. And if it were not for his unfortunate string of injuries he would have certainly pitched in 09 for the big league club.
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Yes he did get us Granderson who I like alot. I can”t wait to see him have a full yr with that swing.
Jones was a fabulous center fielder. My black and white TV observations were that Mays too was fabulous. He covered everything, it seemed. I can’t imagine how he can be metrically judged.
Someone needs to go and read him the “Dear Cashman” letter that was posted here a few days ago. That would be priceless.
From SI and rotoworld:
“SI.com’s Jon Heyman reports that the Red Sox tried to trade closer Jonathan Papelbon to both the White Sox and A’s before signing him to a $12 million deal to avoid arbitration.
It’s not surprising that they tried to deal him and it’s also not surprising that they found no takers. Though still a fine reliever, Papelbon is coming off a down season and is very overpaid. Heyman also notes that if the Sox would have been able to unload Papelbon, they would have made a play for Rafael Soriano.
I feel a tiny bit better about Soriano now, though the Sawx front office probably laughed when they heard about the 2 player option years.