Pinch hitting: Mike Sommer
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Pinch hitters on Jan 21, 2011 
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Back in 1968, Mike Sommer went to his first Yankees game. The man who took him was his father, who was in the stands for Don Larson’s perfect game. Mike is a member of the Lehigh Valley Yankee Fan Club and maintains a blog called The Sommer Frieze, which dates back to 2005. He’s done some Internet radio work including being a guest on the Yankee Roll Call Internet Radio Show, a spot on Joe Boesch’s show on WGBB 1240 AM and the now defunct Yankee fan Club Radio Show. For his Pinch Hitters post, Mike took exception to the notion that the Phillies high-powered rotation automatically makes Philadelphia the team to beat in 2011.
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Ok. The hyperbole has already started.
Already people are calling the Phearsome Phoursome of the Phillies’ 2011 rotation the greatest Phront Phour ever — or at least in modern times. What they consider modern, who knows?
They need to study baseball history. Maybe it is, maybe not. But other great staffs didn’t make it to the Promised Land.
What to expect from the Phils’ rotation?
• Halladay: 34 next year. 2 CYAs, a runner-up and a third. A perfect game and a postseason no-no last year. 162 g. average: 17-9, 3.32.
• Oswalt: 34 next year. Five top five CYA finishes. 162 g. average: 16-9, 3.18.
• Lee: 33 next year. A CYA. 12 g. average: 16-9, 3.85.
• Hamels: Just turned 27. 162 g. average: 14-10, 3.53.
Very good. But let me list just a few other rotations. I just want to list a couple and make a point.
1920 White Sox
Red Faber. 23-13, 2.99; Eddie Cicotte 21-10, 3.26; Claude (Lefty) Williams 22-14, 3.91 and Dickie Kerr 21-9, 3.37.
With a few weeks left in the season, the you-know-what hit the fan about what happened the previous year. The White Sox, with the controversy, finished second. Cicotte and Williams kicked out of baseball.
1954 Indians
Wynn 23-11, 2.73; Lemon 23-7, 2.72; Garcia 19-8, 2.64; Feller (last decent year at 36) 13-3, 3.09; let me add another—Houtteman 15-7, 3.35. 111-43.
AL pennant but swept in the series. Three Hall of Famers.
1966 Dodgers
Koufax (his last year) 27-9, 1.73 (3 CYA); Drysdale 13-16, 3.42 (1 CYA); Osteen 17-14, 2.85 and Sutton (a 21 yr. old rookie) 12-12, 2.99.
Three Hall of Famers and swept in the series.
1971 Orioles
Cuellar (1 CYA) 20-9, 3.08; Palmer (3 CYA, HOF) 20-9, 2.68; McNally 21-5, 2.89 and Dobson 20-8, 2.90.
Lost series in seven.
2002 Yankees
Mussina 18-10, 4.05 (HOF? 270 wins) Wells 19-7, 3.75 (239 wins, one less than Pettitte, probably not HOF but …), Clemens 13-6, 4.35 (354 wins, 7 CYA, but the Mitchell Report), Pettitte 13-5, 3.27 (240 wins and maybe more? Mitchell Report).
Lost in division series. Not to mention El Duque, 8-5, 3.64 as the #5.
Braves of the 1990s
Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz and depending on the year, Millwood, Neagle or Avery at #4. Just one championship.
1989 Mets
2nd place, 87 wins despite Cone, Fernandez, Ojeda, Darling, Gooden and Viola.
Just saying …
Let the Phils’ staff earn it first.
Associated Press photo of Cliff Lee
Amen.
Doreen January 21st, 2011 at 9:02 am
Erin -
They didn?t air Curry?s report last night. They liked it so much they made it a half hour show of it?s own, which will air next week at 7 after Hot Stove. So they just had another short teaser last night, this time showing Cano with some kids.
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I see. Thanks Doreen. Who can blame them for making it it’s own show?
and thanks kate for letting me know.
Mike,
Good post. On paper, the Phils look like the team to beat, but let’s see what happens when they play the games.
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Erin,
I thought that it was funny that in the gossip item you posted in the last thread, they referred to Alex and Cameron as a Hollywood couple.
Phillies hurdle to climb is offensive production. They had good pitching last year too, but they just weren’t hitting, especially in the PS. The “Phearsome Phoursome” can’t throw shut-outs every game.
Anyway, nice post Mike.
Erin -
That it go it’s own half hour spot probably speaks to how good a job Curry did with the piece, as well as the subject – Cano!
Mike -
That’s why they play the games, right???
That staff probably gets them to the playoffs, though, as long as they all stay healthy. I am still not convinced Hammel should rank with the other 3 in the rotation, though I don’t deny he’s good.
Fran- Alex is making his movie debut this summer, so I guess that term isn’t too far off.
Mike, well said.
Look at the ’97 Braves:
John Smoltz: 3.02 ERA
Tom Glavine 2.96 ERA
Denny Neagle 2.97 ERA
Greg Maddux 2.20 ERA
They didn’t even make it to the series.
Erin,
I did not know that about Alex’s movie debut. I hope he doesn’t take time off from the season to do the talk show round
Agree with the post – there’s many a slip between the cup and the lip.
On another topic – Any interest in Jorge Cantu?
The idea is that Eduardo Nunez is going to play a lot of ss and 3b this year but let’s be honest, no one knows if he can handle the role for which he is being thrust.
Cantu would make a nice option as a back up at the corner IF spots.
There was some talk yesterday about Eric Chavez – and while Chavez’s swing is built for Yankee Stadium I don’t think any of us can assume he’s going to be healthy.
Another guy I’ve been thinking about bringing in would be Felipe Lopez if you want someone with more versatility than Cantu – though Cantu offers the better bat.
thanks Mike
I kinda like that expectations are for a Phillies/red sox WS…let them have the targets on their backs
Good post. Will be interesting to see how things play out this year, that’s for sure. One thing I have to admit about the group, I really like the R2C2 nickname I’ve heard for them. Pretty clever.
Yahoo sports says the Rays and Damon are close to a deal.
So true.
“Best rotation ever” = famous last words/kiss of death.
“Yahoo sports says the Rays and Damon are close to a deal.”
Suboptimal.
rodg12
I hadn’t heard “R2C2″ – it is clever.
SI_JonHeyman Johnny damon is close to a deal with #rays, as tim brown reported
Rich in NJ January 21st, 2011 at 9:37 am
“Yahoo sports says the Rays and Damon are close to a deal.”
Suboptimal.
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I refuse to worry about a team that is going into the season with Kyle Farnsworth as its closer.
Yahoo sports says the Rays and Damon are close to a deal
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At least that way Erica can see him play 18 times next season.
ugh. Don’t like the idea of Damon being in the same division. He’ll be pesky playing 9 games or so at YS.
MaineYankee January 21st, 2011 at 9:44 am
At least that way Erica can see him play 18 times next season.
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Thats what I was thinking. And I can totally pretend I am not rooting for him
I refuse to worry about a team that is going into the season with Kyle Farnsworth as its closer.
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Chip,
Excellent point
Doreen January 21st, 2011 at 9:46 am
ugh. Don’t like the idea of Damon being in the same division. He’ll be pesky playing 9 games or so at YS.
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And when that happens, I promise I won’t say “I told you so” to anyone on this blog
But I really will be thinking it
Damon spelled backwards = Nomad.
He’ll be closer to home.
Good for him.
Should have taken our deal when he had the chance.
We offered 2 when no one would.
Erica
Do youy always lurk around so you know when I make reference about you?
Chip
It’s not about the team, it’s about one player.
Damon > Jones
Doreen January 21st, 2011 at 9:46 am
ugh. Don’t like the idea of Damon being in the same division. He’ll be pesky playing 9 games or so at YS.
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It will be fun watching his adventures in LF.
Erica in NY January 21st, 2011 at 9:47 am
MaineYankee January 21st, 2011 at 9:44 am
At least that way Erica can see him play 18 times next season.
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Thats what I was thinking. And I can totally pretend I am not rooting for him
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Don’t get too excited. My guess is that Tampa will be out of it by the deadline and move Damon to a contender.
To bad Cliff Lee’s first name isn’t Wyatt.
Rich in NJ January 21st, 2011 at 9:50 am
Chip
It’s not about the team, it’s about one player.
Damon > Jones
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Rich, I don’t know that Damon would have been content in the same role that Andruw’s in. Plus, the Yankees really needed a RH for the bench. I like Damon, but unless they were moving Gardner I just don’t think he fits.
Chip-
Like the Yankees when/if they DFA Jones
MaineYankee January 21st, 2011 at 9:50 am
Erica
Do youy always lurk around so you know when I make reference about you?
**************
It just works out well that way, doesn’t it?
I made a reference to you yesterday afternoon and you missed it
Wait till Damon gets a taste of our lefty stacked powerhouse rotation!
Oh wait…..
Erica
I was out all afternoon.
Now I’ll have to go back and see what disparaging thing you said about me.
Bronx Jeers January 21st, 2011 at 9:57 am
Wait till Damon gets a taste of our lefty stacked powerhouse rotation!
Oh wait…..
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Maybe not the rotation (though CC’s pretty good I hear) but our pen will be very tough on LH with Feliciano and Logan
Mike-
Really enjoyed your article. The 66 Dodgers had the pitching, especially with the greatest lefty of all time in Koufax, but their hitting was below par and their 2nd baseman, Jim Lefebvre was the only one to hit 20 or more homers [24].
Doreen January 21st, 2011 at 9:46 am
ugh. Don’t like the idea of Damon being in the same division. He’ll be pesky playing 9 games or so at YS.
——————————————————-
He’ll also be “pesky” aiming for the Pesky pole at the Red Sox stadium.
Yankee Trader -
Being pesky against the Red Sox is good!!!
MTU -
Why is it a shame that Cliff Lee’s first name isn’t Wyatt?
Chip-
Feliciano has a good track record against lefties, and if his arm doesn’t fall of, as he’s been a leader in appearances over the last few years[92 last year], is he just a situational lefty as his record against righties is not good.
Who will be the Yankees next FA signing/trade for starting pitching?
“fall off”
Feliciano-92 appearances last year. Wonder how many times he warmed up in the bullpen but didn’t come in to pitch??
i hate rooting against johnny damon, but he chose the rays. ill be wishing i wasnt watching him as he allows garder and granderson to turn routine liners into triples and inside-the-park shots.
but ill still stand up and cheer him the when he comes to the plate the first time.
guys still listed as f/a OF’ers: vlad, manny, garret anderson. some yankee killers are going to be out of the mix this season!
Ys Guy-
You mean his fielding?
I think Damon>Jones……but Im going to wait and see. Andrew could turn out to be a really good sign.
Yankee Trader January 21st, 2011 at 10:12 am
Chip-
Who will be the Yankees next FA signing/trade for starting pitching?
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According to Curry on Yankee HS the Yankees (Cashman) have no interest in Duchscher or Galarraga – they think the two of them are just more expensive verisons of Sergio Mitre.
I would still like to see Freddy Garcia in pinstripes but if we’re to believe what Curry said, it’s quite possible that Nova and Mitre will be the last two members of the rotation to open the season.
Jones plays the field. Thames and Damon do not.
All 3 OF positions and hits righty.
Jones > Damon.
blake if i needed a starter id probably favor damon b/c he gives you steadier offense, but off the bench i want someone who can defend, and i prefer a power bat on the bench to an on-base guy. also throw in the LH/RH thing and i can see why its jones instead of damon.
lets face it at this point, neither guy is likely to give you that much. the tigers paid johnny $8M last year and now he’s down to $2M. Jones is living off the money he basically stole from the dodgers.
# Chip January 21st, 2011 at 10:19 am
Yankee Trader January 21st, 2011 at 10:12 am
Chip-
Who will be the Yankees next FA signing/trade for starting pitching?
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According to Curry on Yankee HS the Yankees (Cashman) have no interest in Duchscher or Galarraga – they think the two of them are just more expensive verisons of Sergio Mitre.
I would still like to see Freddy Garcia in pinstripes but if we’re to believe what Curry said, it’s quite possible that Nova and Mitre will be the last two members of the rotation to open the season.
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Nova and Mitre smh wow just wow
“Andrew could turn out to be a really good sign.”
That’s Andruw to you, pal!
He’ll be fine. Probably won’t get the AB’s he got last year in Chi, but he’ll hit some against lefties.
Tom in NJ -
So sorry your cat died. My condolences.
We also have an old cat going through the same, so I know how much you loved him to care for him so.
Wait till Jones meets the wall in fenway…
a couple out of the pawk and we’ll be lovin it.
Yea I see the reasoning behind choosing Jones….I just feel you know more what you’re getting with Johnny…..if Andrew is in shape and does what he did last year then it will be a nice deal…..we’ll see.
perhaps they are worried about gardys wrist and grandy vs lefties….hence the nobrainer jones move
“Wait till Jones meets the wall in fenway…
a couple out of the pawk and we’ll be lovin it.”
.618 OPS in Fenway over 97 plate appearances. On the bright side, he only struck out 30 times in 90 at bats there.
jones in a walk year….like the move
itll be hard for jones (or damon) to replace what they got offensively from thames last season. plus i like thames alot, seemed like a very nice guy and clutch! good luck to him (exept against us)
but i can see wanting someone who can play the field for that spot.
“I think Damon>Jones……but Im going to wait and see. Andrew could turn out to be a really good sign.”
We have to hope so, blake.
“perhaps they are worried about gardys wrist and grandy vs lefties”
Granderson hasn’t offered enough of a reason not to worry about him against lefties. I’m hopeful he can go from abysmal against them to merely bad, but I’m not counting on it.
jones, martin, feliciano, soriano
andy….come on down
last year was also jone’s walk year, and the year before that was his play-so-bad-he-gets-thrown-off-the-team year and the year before that was a walk year…
jone’s is not a case of the guy who rises up in his walk year.
Granderson hasn’t offered enough of a reason not to worry about him against lefties. I’m hopeful he can go from abysmal against them to merely bad, but I’m not counting on it.
__
NO? His splits were much better after he worked with K-Long.
looks like we are done.
12-13m left in the budget.
can’t see Andy giving that away to some no name.
Any word on what the corresponding move will be when the Yankees finalize the Jones deal?
Ideally I would just waive/release Damaso Marte since he’s not likely to pitch again this year rather than DFA a guy like Ramiro Pena, Greg Golson or Kevin Russo.
jone’s is not a case of the guy who rises up in his walk year.
====================
under these new circumstances he might….esp. if he wants to come back here
Great article Mike…I agree 100%
Jerkface–nice discussion last night of WAR. The only thing I would add is that the players are not only compared to their peers, but specifically their position. In 2009, when Ben Zobrist had a higher WAR than Puljois, people went nuts wondering how that could be. What thye missed was that BZ was being compared to his peers at 2B while AP was being compared to his at 1B.
As for HOF consideration, I’ve been thinking recently that 2 WAR values should be looked at–lifetime WAR >55 and average annual WAR >2.5 (total lifetime WAR divided by years played).
If a player meets that criteria, he should be in. For players on fence, consider things like MVPs, ASG, SS, GG, etc.
Personalities and favoritism should not be part of the election process IMO.
Chip January 21st, 2011 at 10:35 am
Any word on what the corresponding move will be when the Yankees finalize the Jones deal?
Ideally I would just waive/release Damaso Marte since he’s not likely to pitch again this year rather than DFA a guy like Ramiro Pena, Greg Golson or Kevin Russo.
++++++++++++++
IO suspect the first one cut will be Reggie Corona who broke his arm in last game of the year and won’t be ready for a few months anyway. They can release him and resign to minor league deal.
1st Andruw…. now Andy…..then 1/2 game out in the postseason.
Doreen-
Because I like Wyatt and Doc a lot better than R2C2.
Has a certain “ring” to it.
Regarding the rotation –
Just because the Yankees go into Spring Training with Mitre and Nova slated as 4&5 that doesn’t mean it’s how it is going to end.
I fully expect that the Yankees will be in the market for a pitcher via trade come June/July and more teams will be willing to make trades at that point.
If the Angels struggle as they did last year maybe a guy like Joel Piniero shakes loose – or Joe Saunders from Arizona or or or – thing is that right now teams think they have a chance – give them time to get the false hope out of their systems.
And who knows – maybe one of the young guys really does step up.
meant offseason.
casa de Jeter is done
http://www2.tbo.com/content/20.....pa-mansio/
@ Chip true it won’t end that way with Nova and Mitre but it’s definitely not a promising way to start lol
let’s see:
crawford, agon,jenks, wheeler
vs
martin, jones, feliciano,soriano
add andy
not as bad as the whiners make it.
Chamberlain was a lesson learned. Never just hand a spot to a player which Ivan Nova will find out. He’ll have competition with Hector Noesi, David Phelps, and possibly D.J. Mitchell with Andrew Brackman as a dark horse. The back end of the rotation will have to be earned. Only Andy Pettitte returning or a deal for a proven starter can change plans.
Someone asked about Aceves somewhere in the last 2 threads or so.
He is still recovering from shoulder injury and looks like he won’t even begin working out until March. No team has expressed interest in signing him until he is healthy. Yankees want to sign him to a minor league deal, but he’ll probably wait until healthy and then audition teams for the best deal possible.
108 stitches January 21st, 2011 at 10:47 am
+++++++++
Agreed
I do think AP is coming back, so handing the spot to a rookie is actually part of the big plan Cashman had in 2006.
Of the ones competing, I think Nova is best, followed by Phelps…Noesi needs secondary pitches to pitch in AL East. Mitchell seems more like a long reliever to me.
If Andy comes back now, it is mission accomplished and we go into the season the favorites.
Cash’s master plan calls for a rookie competing for the 5th spot.
We upgraded at catcher. Got a 4th OF, who can play all 3 spots and is righty.
Got another lefty for the pen and a 2nd closer.
Let the rs think they won the offseason.
jones did horrible his walk year from the braves, then got so fat he wasnt even worth a roster spot for the dodgers who had to eat his whole contract. last year he was crappy again. jones has never shown any real motivation, it seems like he’s been partying since he got his first million and living off what’s left of his former speed and his quick wrists.
at this point he is what he is, dont expect any more. he has show a lack of motivation throughout his career.
if he had johnny damon’s motivation, he’d be headed for cooperstown.
Both Crawford and Gonzalez have the surpass or do no worse than equal the numbers put up by Beltre and Martinez in order to justify their big contracts.
Regardless, Boston will need close to 100% good health from their starting staff 1-5 with no help coming from their farm system or to use as trading chips.
They’ll also need full return of injuries of Pedroia and Ellsbury to help with the weakness up the middle of catching and shortstop.
# 108 stitches January 21st, 2011 at 10:47 am
Chamberlain was a lesson learned. Never just hand a spot to a player which Ivan Nova will find out. He’ll have competition with Hector Noesi, David Phelps, and possibly D.J. Mitchell with Andrew Brackman as a dark horse. The back end of the rotation will have to be earned. Only Andy Pettitte returning or a deal for a proven starter can change plans.
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To be fair they didn’t just hand Joba a spot.
Against All Odds January 21st, 2011 at 10:42 am
@ Chip true it won’t end that way with Nova and Mitre but it’s definitely not a promising way to start lol
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Fair enough – but then again both of those guys are probably better than Aaron Small and Shawn Chacon and we all remember how those guys stepped up right? Anything’s possible.
I just don’t see Andy leaving money on the table.
Not even 1/2 of the 12m left if he came back at midseason.
Aaron Small! great memory. hope he’s doing well! it was so nice to see a guy who had never made a dent in his entire career finally get a chance and contribute (and make some money off it)!
# Chip January 21st, 2011 at 11:08 am
Against All Odds January 21st, 2011 at 10:42 am
@ Chip true it won’t end that way with Nova and Mitre but it’s definitely not a promising way to start lol
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Fair enough – but then again both of those guys are probably better than Aaron Small and Shawn Chacon and we all remember how those guys stepped up right? Anything’s possible.
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Anything is possible but lightning doesn’t strike twice.
hoping for a lightening striking is when you have one guy who you hope might have a career year. the yankees are in a different place, they have actual prospects who are on the verge. the yankees could get contributions from any of mitre, nova, noesi, mitchell or phelps and we all know that brackman, banuelos and betances are coming up right behind. what we are looking for someone to step up to the next level, something which is expected to happen for some of these guys any time now. this is a much higher percentage play than, say signing duchscherer or freddy garcia and hoping he can replicate past glory.
its more like trying to catch lightning in a lightning storm with a lightening rod. sooner or later something is going to strike.
Against All Odds January 21st, 2011 at 11:16 am
# Chip January 21st, 2011 at 11:08 am
Against All Odds January 21st, 2011 at 10:42 am
@ Chip true it won’t end that way with Nova and Mitre but it’s definitely not a promising way to start lol
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Fair enough – but then again both of those guys are probably better than Aaron Small and Shawn Chacon and we all remember how those guys stepped up right? Anything’s possible.
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Anything is possible but lightning doesn’t strike twice.
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Generally not – but there are other guys who have come out of nowhere to have strong seasons.
Nova’s not in the same group as Mitre since Nova’s a young guy who has promise, Mitre is what he is – at the very least he’ll be a guy Girardi won’t have a problem abusing if he needs to because of Mitre’s age.
The Rays may be able to sign another bat now like Vlad or Manny in addition to Damon.
Against All Odds -
In any case – there’s not much to be done about the rotation now anyway – we gotta roll with what we got.
LGY January 21st, 2011 at 11:24 am
The Rays may be able to sign another bat now like Vlad or Manny in addition to Damon.
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And play him where?
very fast fall from mannywood to waiting in line behind andruw jones and johnny damon. this could be the end of manny…
YsGuy January 21st, 2011 at 11:26 am
very fast fall from mannywood to waiting in line behind andruw jones and johnny damon. this could be the end of manny…
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In fairness I’m not entirely sure Manny knows he’s a free agent.
“And play him where?”
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Damon in LF most of the time. Other guy at DH. Many Rays fans think they are going to keep Jennings in AAA to start the year.
lol, it would be hilarioius if manny just showed up at dodger camp and was like…’what?!?”
I was about to say that I could see Manny landing with the O’s and then I thought about Manny and Buck and it made me laugh.
LGY January 21st, 2011 at 11:29 am
“And play him where?”
—————-
Damon in LF most of the time. Other guy at DH. Many Rays fans think they are going to keep Jennings in AAA to start the year.
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Fair enough – though I don’t think a fundementals guy like Maddon will be giddy over the idea of playing Damon in the field too often.
This may sound weird, but this Yankees team is my favorite team since 2001. The team that won in 2009 was so likable, dare I say lovable?
I don’t care if we’re the team to beat. In fact, I’d rather not be the team to beat. There is so much character and camaraderie on this team, that it’d be more enjoyable for me to watch us beat the odds rather than be the victim to another team’s triumphs (Every year since 2001 besides 2009).
There is so much to love about our infield. Two sure fire Hall of Famers on the left side – one is our beloved Captain and the other just might be the best player in the game. The right side of the infield is incredible – two players who are in their prime who also have incredible personalities and energy to the way that they play.
Our catchers/DHs? Fire. Full of fire – that includes Posada and Martin. Who knows how Montero or even Romine might contribute this year, but we love our prospects when they come up and it’s the most satisfying thing to see them succeed.
The outfield has one of my new favorites, Brett Gardner. Nobody thought he’d play the way he did last year, making him one of the most valuable OF in the game (when you include salary). This guy went from hitting in the low .200s to being the kind of player which made us rethink signing Carl Crawford. Granderson is young, energetic, a great ambassador, a great defender, and he can hit. His work with K Long showed that he’s got a lot to give to this team in the next few years. And Swisher? Is there anyone more likable in the game? He crushes the ball, plays an average right field, and don’t forget that he works the count. Exactly the kind of player we want out there on this team.
Our pitching staff has the big cuddly teddy bear in Sabathia. The guy is proven, he’s a horse, and he doesn’t let us down (sure, from time to time, but who doesn’t?). Hughes is a darling of the fans at this point, clearly a guy with great focus and determination who is figuring out day by day how to pitch in the MLB. He took it upon himself to do the Clemens/Pettitte workout when he was new to the bigs, despite how grueling it is. He’s got great poise and potential. Burnett? Well, you guys know the story. A fireball. A guy you want to root for and who has so much potential. I want to believe in him, but there’s something exciting as a fan when you see Burnett succeed. It feels like he’s going up against the odds – against himself. When he throws a great game, it feels even better because of it. And Nova? The guy who was ready to brawl with Bautista? Who doesn’t love this kid already? Sure he’s not going to be a mainstay in the rotation so long as Banuelos and others continue to perform well, but he’s got some potential.
I guess my point is this: We have a team that is easy to root for. A group of guys who like the hell out of each other and play with as much heart as you can play this kind of game in the modern age. So let’s stop complaining about the Phillies being better or the Red Sox winning the AL East next season. The point of baseball is to watch the games and enjoy them, regardless of whether we win or lose a World Series. I’m just glad I don’t have to watch David Wells, Gary Sheffield, Randy Johnson, and Roger Clemens anymore.
Article from a Rays blog about adding Vlad or Manny now
http://www.draysbay.com/2011/1.....d-scenario
This post is really lame. Random rotations listed with no context (do you really think a 1920 ERA means the same thing as a 2010 ERA?) and no analysis. Any idiot can tell you that using the 162 game average is irrelevant to the point of being absurd (raise your hand if you think Cliff Lee is pitching to a 3.85 ERA next year — in the NATIONAL LEAGUE).
And were the 02 Yanks really the best Yanks rotation you could come up with that didn’t win it all? I know that the names look good, but Pettitte was the only one still solidly in his prime.
yeah, i could see how much more comfortable maddon would be not having to put damon in LF because hes got it locked-down with manny out there…
maybe maddon could put johnny AND manny out there so they can reprise thier excellent cut-off work!
My picks:
Vlad – Angels
Manny – Philly
The Angels really missed Vlad in the clubhouse last year. It would mean they would have to trade either Rivera or Napoli but I’m sure they could pull that off if they put their minds to it.
As for ManRam – Raul Ibanez is old and stinks. That OF is small enough that Manny could handle it and he would fill a need for RH power with Werth gone.
I can envision
Damon to Rays
Vlad to Os
Manny to Jays
BoJo January 21st, 2011 at 11:37 am
I can envision
Damon to Rays
Vlad to Os
Manny to Jays
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I’ve heard Manny to the Jays a lot but that only makes sense if Adam Lind can actually play 1b – otherwise they’re already locked in at DH.
Speaking of the Jays – given the Yankee pitching needs would anyone consider:
Bret the Threat and Austin Romine to Toronto for Rickey Romero and Vernon Wells?
Keep in mind, the only reason you’re getting Romero at all is by taking back the contract of Vernon Wells.
Chipster,
Where is your buddy Scott Podsednik going?
I guess a more general way of putting my question is this – would you be willing to take back Vernon Wells if it nabbed you one of Toronto’s better pitchers like Romero, Cecil or Morrow.
@ yes there are surprises in every season and I’m sure the Yankees will have their fair share of them this season
LGY January 21st, 2011 at 11:43 am
Chipster,
Where is your buddy Scott Podsednik going?
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I would assume at some point back to the Dodgers – though now that Damon’s off the board maybe the Angels make him an offer.
Wherever he goes that team will wind up with a pretty good leadoff guy.
Chip–
Not with a budget cap, no. Otherwise, suremaybe if the FO really felt the upcoming prospects are too far away and that Andy won’t return.
# Chip January 21st, 2011 at 11:43 am
I guess a more general way of putting my question is this – would you be willing to take back Vernon Wells if it nabbed you one of Toronto’s better pitchers like Romero, Cecil or Morrow.
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I would love Morrow but boy Well’s contract is such a pain arse. I would give up anything they wanted for Morrow sans Jesus
LOVE the enthusiasm charlestonchew!
” I’m just glad I don’t have to watch David Wells, Gary Sheffield, Randy Johnson, and Roger Clemens anymore.”
…its always a mixed bag… at the same time these guys were here, so were guys like bernie williams, paul oniell, tino, el duque, damon and matsui.
and before that it was catfish and reggie vs. thurman and roy white…
There was a debate last night about Andruw Jones’ prospects for the HOF, which I’d like to dredge up again since I see Bojo here.
The case for Jones is that he has a career WAR of 59.9. For the WAR afficionados, that marginally qualifies him for HOF consideration. And Jones’ career certainly showed a HOF trajectory before 2007.
Jones’ WAR consists of an oWAR of an oWAR of 36.2 and a dWAR of 24.6.
There are about 160 non-pitchers, non-executives in the Hall of Fame. Of those, only 23 have an oWAR of 36.2 or less. I posted a list of them last night around 10:30pm.
Of the 23, 5 are in as managers or executives although they did play some.
That leaves 18.
Of those, 16 were put in the HOF by the Veterans Committee (all of the managers were Veteran’s Committee). Only 2 were elected, Roy Campenella, a very special case, and Rabbit Maranville, a SS.
Of the 18, 9 were middle infielders, one hit the second most famous HR in baseball history, 2 were featured in a famous verse and 1 had a famous brother and cool nickname. None were center fielders.
None played more recently than about 45 years ago. Almost all of them played before WWII. GB7 probably was very familiar with them.
I don’t think Jones is destined for the HOF.
Against All Odds January 21st, 2011 at 11:47 am
# Chip January 21st, 2011 at 11:43 am
I guess a more general way of putting my question is this – would you be willing to take back Vernon Wells if it nabbed you one of Toronto’s better pitchers like Romero, Cecil or Morrow.
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I would love Morrow but boy Well’s contract is such a pain arse. I would give up anything they wanted for Morrow sans Jesus
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I tend to agree on Morrow – I think within a couple of years Morrow will be considered on a level with young guys like Lester, Felix and Johnson.
Personally – I would be willing to absorb the Wells deal if it got me Morrow.
Speaking of the Jays ? given the Yankee pitching needs would anyone consider:
Bret the Threat and Austin Romine to Toronto for Rickey Romero and Vernon Wells?
Keep in mind, the only reason you?re getting Romero at all is by taking back the contract of Vernon Wells.
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Chip ..i’d do that in a second !!
Wave Your Hat January 21st, 2011 at 11:50 am
There was a debate last night about Andruw Jones’ prospects for the HOF, which I’d like to dredge up again since I see Bojo here.
The case for Jones is that he has a career WAR of 59.9. For the WAR afficionados, that marginally qualifies him for HOF consideration. And Jones’ career certainly showed a HOF trajectory before 2007.
Jones’ WAR consists of an oWAR of an oWAR of 36.2 and a dWAR of 24.6.
There are about 160 non-pitchers, non-executives in the Hall of Fame. Of those, only 23 have an oWAR of 36.2 or less. I posted a list of them last night around 10:30pm.
Of the 23, 5 are in as managers or executives although they did play some.
That leaves 18.
Of those, 16 were put in the HOF by the Veterans Committee (all of the managers were Veteran’s Committee). Only 2 were elected, Roy Campenella, a very special case, and Rabbit Maranville, a SS.
Of the 18, 9 were middle infielders, one hit the second most famous HR in baseball history, 2 were featured in a famous verse and 1 had a famous brother and cool nickname. None were center fielders.
None played more recently than about 45 years ago. Almost all of them played before WWII. GB7 probably was very familiar with them.
I don’t think Jones is destined for the HOF.
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I agree with you on the overall finding that Jones isn’t a Hall of Famer but I disagree with the methodology of using one method of statistic (WAR) as the determining factor.
Jones was certainly on a Hall of Fame path as you point out – but that track was not nearly long enough to get him in. Also the drop was so steep and so fast that I actually think playing these last 4 years has detracted from his candidacy.
Jones could still have a few more nice seasons in him, but what made him special wasn’t his bat so much as it was his glove – and that aspect of his game is long gone.
I would take on Wells for one of the Toronto pitchers but LGY made them spend all their money on Soriano.
My active Hall of Famers:
Alex
Mo
Jeter
Manny
Vlad
Halladay
Johan
Pudge
Chipper
Ichiro
Thome
Pujols
I’m warming on Posada
Mauer’s too young to consider right now but certainly he’s on the right path
Here’s a tough one for you to consider – Bobby Abreu
Career Numbers: .296 BA, .400 OBP, 131 OPS+, 2257 hits, 276 HR, 372 SB
austinmac January 21st, 2011 at 11:59 am
I would take on Wells for one of the Toronto pitchers but LGY made them spend all their money on Soriano.
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Oh right – I forgot the Yankees are broke LOL
# Chip January 21st, 2011 at 11:51 am
Against All Odds January 21st, 2011 at 11:47 am
# Chip January 21st, 2011 at 11:43 am
I guess a more general way of putting my question is this – would you be willing to take back Vernon Wells if it nabbed you one of Toronto’s better pitchers like Romero, Cecil or Morrow.
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I would love Morrow but boy Well’s contract is such a pain arse. I would give up anything they wanted for Morrow sans Jesus
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I tend to agree on Morrow – I think within a couple of years Morrow will be considered on a level with young guys like Lester, Felix and Johnson.
Personally – I would be willing to absorb the Wells deal if it got me Morrow.
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You’ll have to sell me on the Wells contract man. Morrow is so tempting. He’s young, throws hard, has nasty stuff, etc. I agree with what you said he’ll be mentioned as one of the best in the game
“Bret the Threat and Austin Romine to Toronto for Rickey Romero and Vernon Wells?”
Jays have no need for Romine, but in order to get out from under $86M due Wells over the next 4 seasons, they’d probably jump on board. Can sort of understand where GM Cashman might want to do it, but don’t believe for a second that GM Levine would allow it.
Chip,
No, on Abreu. Halladay and Santana need several more top flight years. It won’t surprise me with Halladay, but Santana currently has only 135 wins. He’s likely not going to get there. I agree with all your other selections.
abreu is such an enigma. his stats are increadible but he just alway seems to be somehow less than what you expect of him. but he really could do anything except go back to the wall.
unbelieveable production in philly and yet most philly fans seemed glad to see him go.
great numbers with the yankees and nobody cared when he left.
i expect to see the same ambivilence about his HOF candidacy. he’s legit, but i just don’t see alot of people pushing for him…
I think Abreu is destined for the Hall of the Very Good.
Chip,
The Soriano comment was a joke. I too believe they can absorb a lot more money if they choose.
I don’t think the Jays are urgently wanting to move Wells after his comeback season last year. I recognize he is overpaid, but they seem willing to spend.
Wave Your Hat January 21st, 2011 at 12:12 pm
I think Abreu is destined for the Hall of the Very Good.
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Tend to agree – but he is an interesting case.
If he plays a couple of more years and gets to 2500 hits and 300 HRs the case becomes even more interesting
Austin,
I knew you were joking which is why the LOL
Wave and Chip–
Respectfully, I disagree with both of you.
First Wave:
1. Whether the players were elected by press or veterans is immaterial. Those players are in the HOF.
2. All of them were not as good as Jones defensively. He is the second leading dWAR player in history.
3. None of them had his offensive numbers
4. None of them had 7 years as productive as Jones had.
Chip:
1. Whether or not you likeWAR is immaterial to the trend that it is being accepted more and more by voters as a key indicators of value and contribution. I said earlier that I would look at lifetime WAR and average annual WAR to determine if a player is worthy for HOF–thus eliminating the average player over a long period of time issue. Jones passes both criteris.
2. The reason why WAR is such a good measure is because it was created precisely for the purpose of comparing players across eras to peers. There is no better stat, not actaully any other stat that does it so well.
3. It will continue to grow in importance because most of the voters are pretty lazy and can be swayed by peer pressure IMO.
Chip
I guess that trade depends on the level of confidence you have in the guys ready to make the next step.
If any of them will be ready by next year I think it would be a mistake to take on Wells contract.
The jays won’t trade Morrow.
abreu for HOF is also interesting as a steroid case…i dont believe i’ve ever really heard any hard evidence about abreu, yet i think the majority of the people who are stridently anti-roider probably hold him guilty by association (or by enhanced body mass if you prefer). i dont think anyone’s going to come right out and say they wouldnt vote for him b/c of steroids, i’ll bet he gets no votes from the no-steroid voters, but alot from the bill jamesians.
Abreu to me is borderline. I don’t think he will get in. But his level of consistency can not be ignored.
Of course the rotation doesn’t mean they are absolutely going to win the world series, but team to beat? As of now, yes, it does, or, at the very least, it makes them one of the top three contenders. All of those teams that you selected were also teams to beat. You’re selecting just a few staffs and disregarding that nearly every year, the team with a staff in at least the top five in baseball is the winner. In fact, the only recent exception I can think of are the 2006 Cardinals. Just because a couple staffs didn’t win it all every year they played together doesn’t prove nearly as much as you think. Those Mets did win just a couple years earlier in 86. And the 1920 White Sox had won in 1917. The Braves won in 1995. It’s not so easy to win multiple titles. The Yankees of the late 90s were a special group. We not only had one of the top 5 staffs every year, we had a top offense. Like it or not, it’s a huge advantage.
But we don’t have to worry about that until the World Series anyway. Let’s get through the BoSox, Rays, Rangers, Angels, ChiSox, Minnesota and Detroit first.
Halladay should get in, even if he only gets to 200 wins. The win total gets overrated at times.
As a general rule teams within divisions don’t deal amongst themselves. Free agency is the exception or if a player slips through waivers.
Abreu probably won’t make the HOF, but I think there is a case. His consistency and multi-category production has been incredible, but I think there may be only one year in his career when he was one of the top ten outfielders in the game.
Santana and Halladay I expect to make it. If their careers were to end tomorrow, probably not, but I don’t expect that to happen. If Santana wins 200 games, they’ll put him in because for about three years, he was pretty clearly the greatest pitcher on the planet. Halladay hasn’t been lower than number three for almost his entire career.
My list of current players destined for HOF–based solely on WAR and Average Annual WAR
Alex Rodriguez (34) 101.90
Albert Pujols (30) 83.80
Chipper Jones (38) 80.10 B
Jim Thome (39) 70.30 L
Jim Edmonds (40) 68.30 L
Ivan Rodriguez (38) 67.70 R
Manny Ramirez (38) 67.50 R
Scott Rolen (35) 66.10 R
Andruw Jones (33) 59.90 R
Vladimir Guerrero (35) 59.20 R
Bobby Abreu (36) 58.20 L
Todd Helton (36) 57.90 L
Carlos Beltran (33) 56.50 B
Ichiro Suzuki (36) 55.20
Roy Halladay (33) 54.3
Mariano Rivera (40) 52.9
PotentialFuture
Joe Mauer
CC Sabathia
Felix Hernandez
i dont know that toronto is ok with paying wells, i’d say they are resigned to paying him because the alternatives are much less attractive.
and i’d put sending morrow to the yankees in that category. they’d love to get out of well’s contract but not at the cost of losing morrow to the yankees. That would be the much less attractive alternative to them.
Beltran doesn’t belong in the hof.
Missed Jeter 70.1
Beltre possible for future as well since he is still young
Sweet Swinging Cano January 21st, 2011 at 12:33 pm
Beltran doesn’t belong in the hof.
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My whole point is I would like to see the subjectivity taken out of the voting, and therefore use the WAR and AAWAR as the criteria. If I am to be true to that, Beltran has to go in becuase he added so much value compared to his peers. His lifetime WAR is right on border of my cut off, but he is ahead of more than 50 HOFers (rough count)
I’m not os sure that the Wells contract is so bad anymore…Seems like the market has caught up to it, and contracts to Werth and Crawford make his more palatable.
He posted a 3.4 WAR last year and was paid about $15.5M…where the calculatios say he was worth $18M.
If he continues to rebound, he may actually be considered a good value.
This comment below on Brandon Morrow is Chip’s, I believe. But the link below isn’t necessarily intended for him.The debate about Morrow during his Seattle tenure is eerily reminiscent of the Joba wars waged on Yankee blogs.
To me,Brandon Morrow is a cautionary tale on giving up too soon on a pitcher with upside/starter potential.
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I tend to agree on Morrow – I think within a couple of years Morrow will be considered on a level with young guys like Lester, Felix and Johnson.
Personally – I would be willing to absorb the Wells deal if it got me Morrow.
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Joba may be the Brandon of to Morrow:
http://bleacherreport.com/arti.....rs-bullpen
Brandon Morrow should be kept around in the 2009 MLB off-season to be groomed as the team’s future closer.
Morrow has been the subject of fan dismay for the past few seasons. After being drafted a handful of spots ahead of 2008 Cy Young Award winner Tim Lincecum, then bouncing between the bullpen and the starting rotation—by both his own and the front office’s volition—he’s become a target for frustration.
I even wrote an article early in the season, claiming that he’d started his own clock on his departure upon re-joining the bullpen.
That still stands true.
Blogs and traditional journalism outlets have called for an off-season trade. Morrow may still have value disproportionate to the results he’s produced, based solely on his immense physical talent.
Morrow sports a mid-90s fastball, and developing off-speed pitches. Though he’s exiting his traditional prospect years, baseball traditionalists will note that most pitchers don’t reach their athletic prime until their late-20s or even their early-30s in some cases.
But it would be a huge mistake if the Mariners traded him this off-season for something comparable to his present value.
The mishandling of Morrow is something that has not gone understated, but is perhaps underestimated. …………….”
“The logic, at least in the case of Morrow, is that while two years ago his value may have been at its peak, that doesn’t mean it can’t rise from the valley it is in.
And ultimately the potential return on Morrow, even if he leaves with no compensation, is probably more valuable than any prospect he’d be traded for right now.
If all goes well, he’d eventually be replaced by Joshua Fields, as the Mariners continue to cycle through relief pitchers, exploiting a flaw in the market valuation of closers.”
Great article, BUT AS USUAL YANKEE FANS ARE SO SELF CENTERED ABOUT THEIR TEAM THAT NOTHING REALLY MATTERS EXCEPT THE YANKEES. WHEN THEY WERE ASKED ABOUT THE PINSTRIPE BOWL THEIR COMMENTS DIDN’T EVEN REFLECT ON THE QUESTION. Well Yankee fans in a couple of weeks you will be complaining about your teams inability and lack of pitching. But Andruw Jones will really make a BIG, BIG difference. Be lucky if he gets 50 at bats. Oh, by the way Oliver Perez may be available. LOL