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What does this winter mean for Cash next winter?

Posted by: Sam Borden - Posted in Misc on Jan 23, 2011 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

There is an interesting piece by Hall of Fame columnist Bill Madden in today’s Daily News in which he writes about the possibility of Brian Cashman wanting to leave the Yankees after his contract expires next winter. Cashman, Madden says, may be coming to the end of his rope with regard to the unusual dynamic that comes with working for the Steinbrenner family.

Now, to be fair, there have been whispers and chatter about this notion for a long time. I know that some people are very much down on Cashman – and believe me, I’m well-aware of the stinkers he’s been part of, too – but I’ve always felt he got way, way too much anger directed his way. In truth, he’s sort of in a no-win; he’s been part of a club that delivered four championships in five years, went to two more World Series in the next three years then won another World Series six years after that. If you don’t think that’s a fantastic output, talk to some Jets fans today and see how on edge they’re feeling going into tonight’s game.

Of course, it’s easy to look at all that and say Cashman “didn’t do anything” because he could “pay whatever he wanted to get anyone.” I’ve never quite bought that and I think it’s largely unfair to say Cashman isn’t a very important part of the Yankees success. Is he fed up with being – as he once said – the “director of spending?” That may be. So maybe he does go looking for a different gig in a year, maybe he does want to try a smaller-market situation. I’ll believe it when I see it.

I’ll say this though: If and when he does go, whatever the circumstances, I do think there will be plenty of fans who find themselves missing him more than they expected.

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191 Responses to “What does this winter mean for Cash next winter?”

  1. Doreen January 23rd, 2011 at 12:18 pm

    Sam -

    I agree with you 100%.

    I have always felt that this current contract was going to be his last with the Yankees, regardless of what occurred during its term.

    It will certainly be interesting to see how the Yankees go about finding his replacement and how Yankees fans react, no matter who it is.

    I think it’s the toughest GM job in baseball, and generally speaking, Cashman has acquitted himself well.

    He’s not infallible, certainly. But he’s held up pretty well in a very tough town.

  2. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 12:18 pm

    Sam, every GM has his share of stinkers.

    I refuse to read the article as I despise Madden like no other. I said, however, at the time of the Soriano presser that I think this is probably the end of the line for Cashman. What employee sounds off to the media about how his bosses overruled him and makes stupid comments about how” it’s not my team, it’s theirs”. That makes Cash sound like he’s 5 years old and stamping his feet because he didn’t get what he wants. I think he wants general authority to make baseball moves and I suspect Hal and Hank (who is more involved lately) and, unbelievably, the freaking president of the team (what president of a team gets involved in baseball transactions) have probably been increasingly difficult to work with. I realize that all owners have the ability and right to overrule their GM, but I suspect it’s not just this move that ticked Cash off, but generally their actions behind the scenes over the past few months. Now personally I have always liked Cash, but with his comments, I think he has a personal agenda – and that is to prove to his naysayers that he can win with a lower payroll. Given that, I think maybe he should leave. I don’t want my GM to care what mediots or fans of whiny, small market teams think. He needs to do what is best for the team and if that means spending more $$$ than people would like, who cares – I mean, if the owners approve it, then why should Cash care how much he spends? I am not suggesting that Cash throw good money after bad, but neither does the man get bonus points for winning with a lower payroll. Atta baby indeed..

  3. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 12:20 pm

    Cash is well liked and respected around the game. He’s also been with the Yankees for a long time………I can see other GMs (if he leaves or is not re-signed) asking: if Cashman can’t get along with Hal/Hank, then what makes me think I can? I don’t think anyone will be dying to take a GM job if it opens up.

  4. Chase January 23rd, 2011 at 12:20 pm

    I’ve always thought of Cashman as one of the best GM’s in baseball. He is at least top 3 in my mind.

    I really hope he doesn’t leave after this season, because I feel we will miss him incredibly.

  5. ac1 January 23rd, 2011 at 12:21 pm

    Cashman has rebuilt the farm system and we will see how important he is in 2-3 years. But… if he is gone, I hope the Yankees try to bring Andrew Friedman up i-95.

  6. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 12:22 pm

    Doreen, yep – I don’t buy all those reports as to how Lee was SOOO excited to be in NY. I buy that he was excited to get the hell out of Dodge (Seattle) and go to a contender, but I don’t think NY had anything to do with it. He clearly adored Philly and the Yankees weren’t even his 2nd choice from what I can tell. So, we would have given up Montero for a guy that probably would have hated NY and, in any case, would have gone to Philly regardless.

  7. David in Cal January 23rd, 2011 at 12:23 pm

    I’m sure there are better GMs out there than Cashman out there. The Tampa Bay results show that business acumen may be more important than baseball experience. The trouble is, I’m not sure the Yanks would replace Cashman with one of the better GMs.

  8. mick January 23rd, 2011 at 12:26 pm

    I think he has a personal agenda – and that is to prove to his naysayers that he can win with a lower payroll.
    ===========================================
    Lower payroll? Ha!

  9. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 12:29 pm

    From the prior therad, David Adams is trade bait because obviously Cano isn’t going anywhere…….

  10. Jacques Strappe January 23rd, 2011 at 12:31 pm

    Agreeing on the comments about Cash being one of the best in the biz, and his approach to the farm. Hopefully he’s OK with the Steinbrenner dynamic and signs on for a few more years.

    Otherwise, I’d worry that Hal might strut into Girardi’s office some day (during Girardi’s fourth or fifth tenure with the Yanks) and tell him somthing like “I just won you the world series …. I signed Ed Whitson’s son!”

    Bridge-jumper fans with little else to do need to understand that ever GM in the game still answers to ownership despite whatever degree of freedom & trust there may be in an organization, and none can claim a lopsoded victory on every deal.

  11. mick January 23rd, 2011 at 12:31 pm

    Every position player is paid top dollar as are CC , AJ, Mo and Soriano, yet some insist we are cheap.

  12. yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2011 at 12:32 pm

    Why would the Yankees get Friedman? They would nix all his moves and not want to wait for player development. The beauty of Friedman would be lost in NY. Friedman and Yankees = oxymoron.

  13. Jacques Strappe January 23rd, 2011 at 12:33 pm

    lopsided … sorry, typo

  14. ac1 January 23rd, 2011 at 12:33 pm

    From the prior therad, David Adams is trade bait because obviously Cano isn’t going anywhere…….

    ___

    SHould move him to SS now so he can be ready there when Jeter finally has to move off the position. I like David Adams a lot, and think he can be a good player on the team, but obviously 2nd base is locked forever.

  15. Crawdaddy January 23rd, 2011 at 12:33 pm

    I think Cashman is leaving too. The old man is gone and there’s no reason why Cashman has to put up with the likes of Randy Levine any longer. Later in the season, teams like the Angels or the Brewers might be looking for a new GM so Cashman will land on his feet and doesn’t have to worry about the mantra of winning a WS title every year.

  16. MaineYankee January 23rd, 2011 at 12:33 pm

    David in Cal January 23rd, 2011 at 12:23 pm
    I’m sure there are better GMs out there than Cashman out there. The Tampa Bay results show that business acumen may be more important than baseball experience. The trouble is, I’m not sure the Yanks would replace Cashman with one of the better GMs.

    ———————————————————————————————————

    Don’t give all the credit for the success of Tampa to just the current group.

    The ground work was laid before they took charge.

    Who are the GM’s that are better than Cashman that you would like?

  17. mick January 23rd, 2011 at 12:34 pm

    Cash has his priorities straight and is working within the guidelines set forth by mgmnt. as all GM’s do.
    No GM is bigger than his boss whom he works for.
    Give Hal a chance.
    Small sample size as they say…

  18. 108 stitches January 23rd, 2011 at 12:34 pm

    It’s not Brian Cashman’s fault that the free agent class this year had little to offer and next year won’t be much different.
    Nobody is privy to what the relationship really is between himself and the hierarchy of the Steinbrenners and others.
    He may have the toughest job of any team in baseball. The Yankees are expected to win big EVERY year. It’s hard to imagine him working as a GM for a heavily budgeted team content with mediocrity year in and year out.

  19. LGY January 23rd, 2011 at 12:36 pm

    Cashmans comments and actions this winter indicate to me that he plans on being here a while longer and that he could not care less what people think, hence me not buying whatsoever this narrative that he wants to prove he can win with a lower payroll.

    It defies logic that somehow people will view him differently with a 190 million dollar payroll than a 210 one. And this is completely ignoring his offer to Cliff Lee.

  20. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 12:37 pm

    I think he’s having issues with Hal and Hank, but at least they are the owners. The President of the team should not be this involved. I don’t even have any personal dislike/animosity of Levine, but he’s presumably a financial guy, NOT a baseball man. However, he’s got Hal and Hank’s ear and that’s a problem. I think it’s a combination of many things as to why I think Cash will walk.

  21. yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2011 at 12:38 pm

    If for nothing else, Cashman needs to get credit for having the vision and determination to have rebuilt the farm. I think a really important and sometimes omitted point about our farm system is that in 21st century major league baseball the farm system is the lifeblood of an organization not some silly extravagance. Without a strong farm system, we will not win in the present or lay the foundation for winning in the future.

  22. Jacques Strappe January 23rd, 2011 at 12:39 pm

    Of any of the GMs or GM candidates who could be about as good at their jobs (or better, if one sees it that way) how many of their teams would be willing to let them get away so the Yanks could actually ‘upgrade’?

    I think the Yanks should make a real effort to retain Cashman next winter.
    If you don’t like how Cashman’s doing his job … good chance it could become a whole lot worse.

  23. joeman January 23rd, 2011 at 12:39 pm

    so the Yankees offered Pavano a one year 7 mil contract….very interesting, note to Cash don’t go anywhere near Blanton unless they give him to you and send $$$$ this way

  24. yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2011 at 12:40 pm

    LGY January 23rd, 2011 at 12:36 pm
    Cashmans comments and actions this winter indicate to me that he plans on being here a while longer and that he could not care less what people think, hence me not buying whatsoever this narrative that he wants to prove he can win with a lower payroll.

    It defies logic that somehow people will view him differently with a 190 million dollar payroll than a 210 one. And this is completely ignoring his offer to Cliff Lee.
    ______
    What I have been saying. Agree. Media narrative on a slow day, needing to compete with football.

  25. mick January 23rd, 2011 at 12:40 pm

    It defies logic that somehow people will view him differently with a 190 million dollar payroll than a 210 one. And this is completely ignoring his offer to Cliff Lee.
    ========================================
    LGY

    This media slop is spoonfed to the masses,who may call them mediots, but are brainwashed into thinking they have minds of their own because they can disagree.
    Whatever opinion is out there they can go the other way not having minds of their own.
    Call them contrarians.
    Nothing is good enough.
    Must be a horrible way to live…

  26. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 12:42 pm

    108, I like Cash, but he has to take some blame for the Yankees SP situation being the way it is. I am not one to blame the organization for when pitchers don’t develop as we hoped (like with Joba), but I dont’ think they’ve done a great job. We thought a few years ago that Joba and Phil would be anchoring our rotation for years- we argued who was better, etc………….and now look at it. This development “issue” is on him. Now he had to sign AJ (or Lowe – and I wanted AJ) and I thought Javy was a good sign that went wrong, but the overall fact is that we were put in a position to where Lee was a must and that’s never a good thing. We’re now going to basically hand Nova a starting gig off a few starts and will end up with either Mitre or another kid as a starter. This is something a team like Pittsburgh does -not the Yankees.

  27. Crawdaddy January 23rd, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    I think people are reading a little too much in the lower payroll angle too. Cashman just wants to win, period. Furthermore, though I think Cashman might leave at the end of the season, that doesn’t mean that he and the Steinbrenner boys won’t agree to another extension. A lot is going to depend on how his vision plays out this season with the Yankees and their minor league teams.

    Also, Madden is speculating about Cashman, but let’s be honest here. Madden and the rest of the Daily News gang doesn’t have a good relationship with Cashman. He called them out the last time he signed his extension and they didn’t like it. He basically said, he’ll write his own legacy in regard to the Yankees and won’t allow others (Daily News) to do so with some untruths.

  28. upstate kate January 23rd, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    I think Cashman, much like Jeter and Posada, will be very much missed when he is gone. He has changed the operation from just going out to buy whatever overpriced veteran was out there, or caught the fancy of GMS, to developing the farm system.

  29. mick January 23rd, 2011 at 12:44 pm

    What is wrong with the Yankees SP situation?
    They are 1 pitcher away (Andy) from a good staff that can win a WS.

  30. LGY January 23rd, 2011 at 12:44 pm

    The Angels? Lol. So then he gets to deal with Moreno and have to build a team around Vernon Wells.

    Cash is not going to leave and watch someonee else get all the crediy for the team and farm he built post 06 just to deal with a lower payroll and some other owner.

  31. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 12:46 pm

    I like Cash, but he’s not the only one that can do this job. If he stays, fine, but right now I can’t say I’d cry if he left. I’d like to see some position players make their mark before I rave about the farm. It’s completely imbalanced – so many promising pitchers (but again, I’ll play the wait and see game on them since I don’t love how the Yankees handle their young starters) and very, very few position players.

  32. Crawdaddy January 23rd, 2011 at 12:47 pm

    Until you know who is replacing him, you better be concern.

  33. Tom in N.J. January 23rd, 2011 at 12:47 pm

    I can relate to Jet fan angst. Around 3 years ago the Giants were playing the Packers in the NFC championship game. I almost started smoking again.

  34. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 12:48 pm

    LGY, I guess we’ll find out who’s right at the end of the year. What, Cash is supposed to stay on until he dies at his desk because he’s afraid others will get credit for his farm? Let’s first see this pipeline of young players the Yankees supposedly have

  35. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 12:48 pm

    Sam nice post – good link to the article.

  36. YankeesNmore January 23rd, 2011 at 12:48 pm

    Cashman can’t leave soon enough.

    Let him go be the GM of some small-market team and get somebody in here who isn’t ashamed to use our greatest asset to our greatest advantage.

  37. mick January 23rd, 2011 at 12:48 pm

    We’re now going to basically hand Nova a starting gig off a few starts and will end up with either Mitre or another kid as a starter. This is something a team like Pittsburgh does -not the Yankees.
    =====================
    All over the place.
    What do you want?
    Buy a big pitcher?
    Grow the farm system?
    Win now? Win later?
    If he earns the 5th starter job , so be it.
    A star at every position, you got it.

  38. Ruby Tuesday January 23rd, 2011 at 12:48 pm

    Even WITH Cliffie Lee and Andy Pettitte, I still doubt we could compete with the likes of J*n L*st*r and C . B .

  39. mick January 23rd, 2011 at 12:49 pm

    Except for the 5th starter…OMG.

  40. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 12:49 pm

    Craw, how can I know who’s available at this point? I’m not actively hoping he leaves or is not re-signed, but I’m sort of burned out on Cashman. I’m not sure I’ve gotten over his asinine “atta boy/baby” comment………and his bit about Soriano really bothers me still.

  41. Crawdaddy January 23rd, 2011 at 12:50 pm

    God, we have both trolls here today which tells me somebody is busy switching logins.

  42. yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2011 at 12:50 pm

    Tom in N.J. January 23rd, 2011 at 12:47 pm
    I can relate to Jet fan angst. Around 3 years ago the Giants were playing the Packers in the NFC championship game. I almost started smoking again.
    ______
    lol. Less than six hours to kick-off and I feel virtually paralyzed to do anything other than keep looking at the clock, look out the window at the snow, look back at the clock, post here. I still haven’t eaten a thing.

  43. joeman January 23rd, 2011 at 12:51 pm

    # mick January 23rd, 2011 at 12:44 pm

    What is wrong with the Yankees SP situation?
    They are 1 pitcher away (Andy) from a good staff that can win a WS.
    —————————————————————————–

    mick..mick..mick…….need I say it again

    LOL!!!!!!

  44. YankeesNmore January 23rd, 2011 at 12:51 pm

    And for those who defend Brian Cashman, just remember this:

    He did NOT want Soriano but DID want Carl Pavano back!

    Case closed!

  45. joeman January 23rd, 2011 at 12:52 pm

    RS are going to continue to look into trading Paps even after the season starts, wonder how that is going to sit with him

  46. mick January 23rd, 2011 at 12:52 pm

    lol. Less than six hours to kick-off and I feel virtually paralyzed to do anything other than keep looking at the clock, look out the window at the snow, look back at the clock, post here. I still haven’t eaten a thing.
    ————————-
    watch the packer-bears game….don’t get your hopes up, stay low key with the jets.

  47. Crawdaddy January 23rd, 2011 at 12:52 pm

    I don’t care if Cashman goes or not, but I’m worried about who’s replacing him if he does leave and how the Yankee managment structure is going to work going forward.

  48. yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2011 at 12:53 pm

    And my sentence wasn’t even parallel, which shows I am hurting. :)

  49. MaineYankee January 23rd, 2011 at 12:53 pm

    YankeesNmore January 23rd, 2011 at 12:48 pm
    Cashman can’t leave soon enough.

    Let him go be the GM of some small-market team and get somebody in here who isn’t ashamed to use our greatest asset to our greatest advantage.

    ——————————————————————————————–

    You mean like George did in the 80s.

    That worked well.

  50. brownies January 23rd, 2011 at 12:54 pm

    Lee was not swayed by the director of spending. Let’s see the plan B and soon for the rotation. Maybe its andy returning who knows. But we fans are uneasy about the rotation as it stands now. Let’s see brian get creative without offering a good pitcher $170 million

  51. YankeesNmore January 23rd, 2011 at 12:54 pm

    QUOTE: “What do you want?”
    —————————————————————————-
    Given the assets the Yankees have and invest into the on-field product, I want a team with fewer than four question marks in the starting rotation.

    That doesn’t seem like too much to ask.

  52. upstate kate January 23rd, 2011 at 12:54 pm

    The most stressful for me are the Yankees/red sox games, I usually don’t eat much when they play. Actually the absolute worst was watching my son’s wrestling matches…the longest 6 minutes ever.

  53. Against All Odds January 23rd, 2011 at 12:55 pm

    # Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 12:42 pm

    108, I like Cash, but he has to take some blame for the Yankees SP situation being the way it is. I am not one to blame the organization for when pitchers don’t develop as we hoped (like with Joba), but I dont’ think they’ve done a great job. We thought a few years ago that Joba and Phil would be anchoring our rotation for years- we argued who was better, etc………….and now look at it. This development “issue” is on him. Now he had to sign AJ (or Lowe – and I wanted AJ) and I thought Javy was a good sign that went wrong, but the overall fact is that we were put in a position to where Lee was a must and that’s never a good thing. We’re now going to basically hand Nova a starting gig off a few starts and will end up with either Mitre or another kid as a starter. This is something a team like Pittsburgh does -not the Yankees.

    —————————————-

    Yea that’s the thing it’s not his fault that Lee chose to go to the Phillies but he takes some of the blame for the rotation being in the shape that it’s in. A couple of yrs after getting an ace the Yankees were back in the FA because they had to get another one.

  54. West Coast Yankee Fan January 23rd, 2011 at 12:55 pm

    Like any organization, the problems start at the top. I have my issues with Cashman, particularly his player evaluation abilities. But my perception is that Yankee management is now operating by committee, with Hal and Hank being joined at the table by Randy Levine and Lon Trost. That is a recipe for failure down the road.

  55. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 12:55 pm

    Craw, as we get closer to the end of the season, I’ll be concerned about Cash’s replacement. However, in terms of management structure, that concerns me right now. Clearly the President seems to have as much say in baseball moves as the GM – hardly a positive thing – and the owners are interfering.

  56. mick January 23rd, 2011 at 12:55 pm

    The fact that Cash is saying these things shows he is secure.
    If it bothered Hal he could fire him.
    He is trying to build a farm and win with the great talent he has.
    Not an easy job.

  57. upstate kate January 23rd, 2011 at 12:56 pm

    Cashman didn’t say he didn’t want Soriano, he said he didn’t want to give up a draft pick for him.

  58. yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2011 at 12:57 pm

    upstate kate January 23rd, 2011 at 12:54 pm
    The most stressful for me are the Yankees/red sox games, I usually don’t eat much when they play. Actually the absolute worst was watching my son’s wrestling matches…the longest 6 minutes ever.
    ______
    Agree. Yankee-Red Sox playoff games are the absolute worst. Wall to wall baseball anxiety. 7 game fasts. Almost. Nervous even thinking about future ones.

  59. MaineYankee January 23rd, 2011 at 12:57 pm

    upstate kate January 23rd, 2011 at 12:54 pm
    The most stressful for me are the Yankees/red sox games, I usually don’t eat much when they play. Actually the absolute worst was watching my son’s wrestling matches…the longest 6 minutes ever.

    ————————————————————————————————–

    So when does your diet book for Yankee fans hit the book shelves? :lol:

  60. joeman January 23rd, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    going to do a 2 team tease ….jets and bears

  61. mick January 23rd, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    # upstate kate January 23rd, 2011 at 12:56 pm

    Cashman didn’t say he didn’t want Soriano, he said he didn’t want to give up a draft pick for him.

    ============================
    If this is the case, I am glad they interfered.
    As long as the right decision is made, I don’t care how it’s made.

  62. 4 NYY January 23rd, 2011 at 12:59 pm

    Talk of Jeter ever moving to another position will depend on how he’s performing. ( hitting )

    When he isn’t hitting anymore, he won’t be playing anywhere. Not knocking him, he’s one of the true Yankee all time greats.

    Same for Posada, he’s probably done after this year, but if he does hit well, then, who knows.

  63. mick January 23rd, 2011 at 1:00 pm

    Clearly the President seems to have as much say in baseball moves as the GM – hardly a positive thing – and the owners are interfering.
    ===================================================
    Obama?

  64. YankeesNmore January 23rd, 2011 at 1:00 pm

    “Cashman didn’t say he didn’t want Soriano, he said he didn’t want to give up a draft pick for him.”
    ——————————————————————————————–
    He said a hell of a lot more than that, and at the press conference of all places!

    He said “there are probably 29 OTHER gm’s who would love to have ownership FORCE SORIANO DOWN THEIR THROATS.”

    And he went on from there. Perhaps you should go read the quotes.

  65. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 1:01 pm

    Against, I think Phil’s injuries really hurt the Yankees because had he stayed relatively healthy, he’d probably have given us reasonable production for those years and he’d be more established than he is now. Also, because of his injuries, instead of trying to develop 1 young SP at at time, the Yankees had to develop 2 (Phil was ahead of Joba, but after his injuries, they were on the same timeframe. The Sox didn’t have this issue with Lester and Buchholz). Joba was going to start in 2009 and no way was Phil going to, so down to the minors he went. I think if Phil had remained in the rotation from 2008 onward, Joba might still be in the rotation because the Yankees wouldn’t have been trying to develop 2 kids. I doubt he would have been removed from the rotation in 2010. As it stood, they had to choose one of them to start last year – they weren’t going with both – and Phil won. Now maybe I’m wrong, esp. since the Yankees continue to insist that Joba is a reliever (but I dont’ want to hear that his stuff plays better out of the pen – every starter’s stuff would be better. Phil had MUCH better stuff out of the pen, and he’s in the rotation), but I do think Phil’s injuries really hurt.

  66. YankeesNmore January 23rd, 2011 at 1:02 pm

    “Talk of Jeter ever moving to another position will depend on how he’s performing. ( hitting )

    When he isn’t hitting anymore, he won’t be playing anywhere. ”
    ————————————————————————————————-
    He’s already not “hitting anymore” and Cashman just gave him a $56 million guarantee.

  67. tyanksfan36 January 23rd, 2011 at 1:02 pm

    upstate kate says:

    January 23, 2011 at 12:54 pm

    The most stressful for me are the Yankees/red sox games, I usually don’t eat much when they play. Actually the absolute worst was watching my son’s wrestling matches…the longest 6 minutes ever

    —-

    I think the same with me except when the Yankees play the Rays. At least lately, I can’t even watch the games. Not just because its stressful but because I have to watch the Rays feed.

  68. mick January 23rd, 2011 at 1:03 pm

    He’s already not “hitting anymore”========
    =======================
    How do you know this? Are you a psychic?

  69. upstate kate January 23rd, 2011 at 1:03 pm

    I not only read the quotes, I watched the presser…I just have a different perspective on it than you apparently.

  70. yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2011 at 1:03 pm

    mick January 23rd, 2011 at 12:52 pm
    lol. Less than six hours to kick-off and I feel virtually paralyzed to do anything other than keep looking at the clock, look out the window at the snow, look back at the clock, post here. I still haven’t eaten a thing.
    ————————-
    watch the packer-bears game….don’t get your hopes up, stay low key with the Jets.
    _______
    Good point. I am so nervous, I actually forgot about Packers-Bears. :hide:

    “My hopes” expect them to win. Just like last week. I will accept losing only if they lose. I am always an optimist. ;)

  71. mick January 23rd, 2011 at 1:05 pm

    “My hopes” expect them to win. Just like last week. I will accept losing only if they lose. I am always an optimist.
    ================
    you obviously aren’t a long term Jet fan…

  72. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 1:05 pm

    The only negative with Soriano is if he becomes a headcase or becomes injured – other than that – if he locks down the 8th from April on – then it was a masterful move in hindsight – without any advantage of hindsight – at this point – still like the move and I am glad management stepped in and stopped the madness over the first round draft pick. The Yankees historically have had two first round picks every year – one in the amateur draft – the other on the IFA front. It goes way back to bonus baby Jackson Melian and the hype. The Yankees last year had two no. 1 picks – Cito Culver on the amateur front, and Wilmer Ramos on the IFA (do not count DePaula yet until the visa issue is resolved – which is no easy given). In the upcoming draft – the Yankees with a supplemental type B FA pick from Vazquez and then their second round pick – and their best prospects of late have been found in the 2nd round and on (Betances being an 8th round pick, AJax ditto, Adams a 3rd or 4th rounder, Warren a 3rd rounder, Marshall (aka the hope and redemption for not signing Gerrit Cole from the 2008 draft), I believe a 6th rounder, etc.). I am glad that ownership did not allow a first round pick be the outcome determinative factor for not getting a pitcher who could help stabilize a fragile starting staff – and I say fragile even though I really like Nova and his changeup – man oh man – if Phil could just have Nova’s change.

  73. YankeesNmore January 23rd, 2011 at 1:05 pm

    “I not only read the quotes, I watched the presser…I just have a different perspective on it than you apparently.”
    ———————————————————————————————-
    What “perspective” is that? The perspective of ignoring what people say?

    How can you have watched that presser, and then turn around and say “the only thing Cashman said was he didn’t want to give up the first-round pick?”

    Did you not hear the “forced down their throats” line? Did you not hear Cashman say he didn’t want to pay tha

  74. Against All Odds January 23rd, 2011 at 1:06 pm

    Very well said Betsy regarding the injuries that Phil sustained because it not only delayed his development it also put the Yankees behind the 8th ball. I think another big factor is the injury to Wang. That really started a chain of events that the Yankees have yet to recover from.

  75. upstate kate January 23rd, 2011 at 1:06 pm

    Maine Yankee
    the title could be ‘How to Lose Weight by Watching Sporting Events’

  76. YankeesNmore January 23rd, 2011 at 1:06 pm

    Did you not hear Cashman say he did not want to pay that kind of money for an 8th-inning guy???

  77. 4 NYY January 23rd, 2011 at 1:06 pm

    # YankeesNmore January 23rd, 2011 at 1:02 pm

    “Talk of Jeter ever moving to another position will depend on how he’s performing. ( hitting )

    When he isn’t hitting anymore, he won’t be playing anywhere. ”
    ————————————————————————————————-
    He’s already not “hitting anymore” and Cashman just gave him a $56 million guarantee.
    —————————————————————————————————————

    One ( not that terrible ) bad year isn’t the end for Jeter. He’ll bounce back, but how high ?

    .270 isn’t exactly horrible. Give the guy a break.

  78. yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2011 at 1:07 pm

    tyanksfan36 January 23rd, 2011 at 1:02 pm
    upstate kate says:

    January 23, 2011 at 12:54 pm

    The most stressful for me are the Yankees/red sox games, I usually don’t eat much when they play. Actually the absolute worst was watching my son’s wrestling matches…the longest 6 minutes ever

    —-

    I think the same with me except when the Yankees play the Rays. At least lately, I can’t even watch the games. Not just because its stressful but because I have to watch the Rays feed.
    _____________
    That must be tough. For RS-Yankees playoffs I go to the home games. Attending is actually much less stressful being there before and during the game. Before, I can diffuse the anxeity by walking around, being calmed somewhat by even seeing the field, batting practice, talking to people, etc. Away games are torture though.

  79. yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2011 at 1:09 pm

    mick January 23rd, 2011 at 1:05 pm
    “My hopes” expect them to win. Just like last week. I will accept losing only if they lose. I am always an optimist.
    ================
    you obviously aren’t a long term Jet fan…
    _____
    lol, I have been a season ticket holder since 1985, and have barely ever missed a game. & attended games long before that. My family are original Titan fans. :)

  80. mick January 23rd, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    One ( not that terrible ) bad year isn’t the end for Jeter. He’ll bounce back, but how high ?

    .270 isn’t exactly horrible. Give the guy a break.
    ================================
    This all stems from the win at any cost attitude which Yankee fans are hated for.
    If spending money guaranteed victory, which it doesn’t, we would win every year.
    The fact is that the team with the money will have to overspend and victory is not guaranteed.
    People need to lighten up… :)

  81. mick January 23rd, 2011 at 1:11 pm

    lol, I have been a season ticket holder since 1985, and have barely ever missed a game. & attended games long before that. My family are original Titan fans. :)
    ==============================================
    then you should know better…:)

  82. yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2011 at 1:11 pm

    *anxiety*

  83. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 1:12 pm

    Betsy wrote:

    (Phil was ahead of Joba, but after his injuries, they were on the same timeframe. The Sox didn’t have this issue with Lester and Buchholz).

    BUT:

    The Sox had issues developing Lester and Buchholz – both injury and mechanics related. Remember – Lester was supposed to be up for good in 2006 – but he was diagnosed with cancer. Lester was also a prospect of high importance even before Phil Hughes was drafted by the Yankees in 2004 – remember – Lester was part of the Manny Ramirez package that was offered to the Texas Rangers for A-Rod. As for Buchholz – he was supposed to be ready by 2007 – at the latest by 2008. Remember – Buchholz bursted onto the scene for the Seadogs during the summer of 2007 pitching against Roger Clemens and the Trenton Thunder in that televised Clemens tune up start. The Sox had the plan of rolling the guys off the assembly line of Paplebon getting a cup of coffee in 2005 – and then boom exploding in 2006. Lester getting a cup of coffee in 2006 and then boom exploding in 2007, and then Clay gettin a cup of coffee in 2007 (with his no hitter against the Orioles) and then exploding in 2008 – not everything goes according to plan – even for the Red Sox.

  84. yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2011 at 1:12 pm

    Bears-Packers are at 2PM?

  85. mick January 23rd, 2011 at 1:13 pm

    You have to look at the Jets as a Comedy.
    Like “High Anxiety.”

  86. YankeesNmore January 23rd, 2011 at 1:13 pm

    “One ( not that terrible ) bad year isn’t the end for Jeter. He’ll bounce back, but how high ?

    .270 isn’t exactly horrible. Give the guy a break.”
    ——————————————————————————–
    Given the way opp. pitchers attacked Jeter with fastball after fastball after fastball the last half of last season, he had a HORRIBLE year.

    His bat speed is gone, and it’s been in decline for three years. He went through a long stretch in 2008 where he couldn’t drive the ball AT ALL… That stretch got longer in 2009, then last about the last 2/3 of the year last season.

    FYI – this is the POST-steroid era. Guys don’t “bounce back” at 37 any more.

  87. yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    mick January 23rd, 2011 at 1:11 pm
    lol, I have been a season ticket holder since 1985, and have barely ever missed a game. & attended games long before that. My family are original Titan fans.
    ==============================================
    then you should know better…:)
    ________
    If I knew “better,” I would have bailed long ago. ;)

  88. mick January 23rd, 2011 at 1:16 pm

    ________
    If I knew “better,” I would have bailed long ago. ;)
    =====================================
    No. The Jets have too much entertainment value.

  89. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 1:17 pm

    Against All Odds January 23rd, 2011 at 1:06 pm
    Very well said Betsy regarding the injuries that Phil sustained because it not only delayed his development it also put the Yankees behind the 8th ball. I think another big factor is the injury to Wang. That really started a chain of events that the Yankees have yet to recover from.

    I think the Yankees recovered from the Wang Houston Astros injury fiasco the second they won the 2009 WS. That Wang was never provided with a long term contract and the Yankees wanted to go year to year after Wang’s less than 2007 PS showed that Wang was going to be a very stable innings eater with his hard heavy sinker – but never the solution in the postseason. If anything – the Yankees have not recovered from the AJ 2010 ineffectiveness and the failure to land Cliff Lee – that is what the recovery needs to be from. If AJ can be a consistent below 4.5 ERA pitcher, finally pitch well against the Sox, and give us 13-15 wins – that will go a long way to help stabilizing the rotation. Say this though – I really thought AJ would be more of a problem from staying healthy physically than being an ineffective 5 ERA pitcher and headcase on the mound.

  90. West Coast Yankee Fan January 23rd, 2011 at 1:17 pm

    Just read the Madden article twice. Superb journalism, well researched with logical conclusions. There is a reason Madden is in the Hall of Fame.

  91. filthy slider January 23rd, 2011 at 1:18 pm

    Hey Spiderman don’t let the Yankee door hit you in the a## on the way out. Your trades have been the main reason we over budget & without a starting rotation, great planning. While Theo Epstein is building a solid ballclub you’re out climbing buildings. Do us all a favor QUIT NOW!!!

  92. MaineYankee January 23rd, 2011 at 1:18 pm

    For all you Jets fans.

    I’m a Raider fan so I have no dog in the fight.

    That being said, I hope the Jets win it all because that would be the worst result as far as Patriots fans are concerned. :lol:

    I don’t know who the fans here dislike more, the Yankees or the Jets.

  93. yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2011 at 1:19 pm

    mick January 23rd, 2011 at 1:16 pm
    ________
    If I knew “better,” I would have bailed long ago.
    =====================================
    No. The Jets have too much entertainment value.
    ______
    Not sure what that means. I care about the game on the field.

  94. upstate kate January 23rd, 2011 at 1:21 pm

    you are cherry picking not only what I said, but what was actually said:

    This certainly will help us try to win a championship, there’s no doubt about that, so that’s in the plus column,” Cashman said. “But I didn’t recommend it, just because I didn’t think it was an efficient way to allocate the remaining resources we have. We had a lot of debate about that.”

    Cashman said that he did not agree with the financial strain of paying a setup man with closer-type money, as well as losing the club’s first-round selection in the 2011 First-Year Player Draft as compensation to the Rays because of Soriano’s status as a Type A free agent.

    “He’s a tremendous player in what he does,” Cashman said. “But for me, I’m pretty transparent in how I’ve evolved in building your team. Early on, we’ve obviously committed a lot of money to relievers and had some difficulties with that. And you’ve seen the success we’ve had over the last number of years.”

    Although there was disagreement over the move, Levine told ESPN.com that “Cash is the best general manager in the game.”

    “In the end, there is one thing that we all agree — that [Cashman] said, we all said — [Soriano] makes the Yankees a lot better,” Levine said. “That’s what we have to do every day.

  95. GayleF January 23rd, 2011 at 1:21 pm

    I have thought about this for a while this off season knowing that Cashman’s contract was up next year. If you recall one of the reasons he stated in his press conference when he re-signed with the Yankees last time was that he wanted to “book to be written differently”, that in some respects he felt that he was only portrayed as the director of spending and now that he has won another World Series perhaps he feels that in some respects no matter what he does even win a World Series that because he is with the Yankees that part of the book may never be written the way he wants. Also with George gone although he does have a long standing relationship with the entire family he also does not feel the exact same obligation.

    Either way if he stays or if he goes I think Yankee fans should be very grateful that he was the GM in place during this time period.

  96. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 1:21 pm

    The fact that Buchholz wasn’t ready just means he was something of a late developer, though. The point is, Lester and and Buchholz were at least a year apart (for whatever reason). Phil’s injuries put him on the same exact timeline as Joba – and that was a problem. In any case, I may have jumped the gun on Phil in 2008. I can’t say if he would have been any better than in 2007 because teams would have adjusted and he didn’t even have his cutter. So, for all I know, maybe he would have been bad without the injury in 2008 and would have been sent down. We’ll never know any of this.

    Odds, I don’t agree about Wang. Joba was already in the rotation and Phil was in AAA…………How did his injury affect Phil and Joba?

  97. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 1:22 pm

    West Coast Yankee Fan January 23rd, 2011 at 1:17 pm
    Just read the Madden article twice. Superb journalism, well researched with logical conclusions. There is a reason Madden is in the Hall of Fame.

    I usually do not like Madden b/c I feel that he is bitter for being cut out of the Yankees loop and inside scoop of late. But I will give him credit for this article this morning. It makes a lot of sense – especially with everything that has been said and quoted in the media.

    As for Madden being in the HOF – I did not hear him speak up that much during the steroid era – especially from 1994 to 2003 – so I think any sportswriter who did not investigate or speak up during that period – should not be in the HOF – just as they are now excluding the players who they know or suspect used steroids during that era. Too much hypocrisy and double standards.

  98. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 1:23 pm

    Superb and Madden in the same sentence? I never thought I’d read that.

    Stoneburner, I forgot about how AJ just stinks to high heaven against the Sox, esp. in Fenway – it’s ridiculous. I mean, maybe he’s a worse pitcher now than when he was in Toronto, but to blow up like he has -more than once? The Yankees have to do a lot of hoping and praying with this rotation, so for me, despite the pen, I’m not that confident. The pen can not make up for a crappy rotation and it will just end up wilting due to exhaustion.

  99. yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2011 at 1:23 pm

    Betsy, the Sox did have that issue. Buchholz had to be sent back down (2008). He was mechanically a mess and was considered a “bust” at the time. The Red Sox did the right thing by sending Buchholz down, as the Yankees should have done with Joba.

  100. LGY January 23rd, 2011 at 1:24 pm

    Betsy

    A year ago you were high on Cash, Girardi, and Hughes.

    Now you are really down on all three. What happened?

  101. joeman January 23rd, 2011 at 1:24 pm

    # yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2011 at 1:12 pm

    Bears-Packers are at 2PM?
    ——————————————————————

    3pm

  102. Crawdaddy January 23rd, 2011 at 1:24 pm

    “Just read the Madden article twice. Superb journalism, well researched with logical conclusions. There is a reason Madden is in the Hall of Fame.”

    Now, I see why so many others take their shots at your postings.

  103. mick January 23rd, 2011 at 1:25 pm

    Jets have always been unpredictable.

  104. joeman January 23rd, 2011 at 1:28 pm

    mick…you see Carlo around

  105. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 1:28 pm

    That was a dumb comment by Cash because if the owners don’t care about spending $$$, then why should Cash? Is he worried about the contract putting such a huge dent in the budget that he now can’t make moves he’d like? If so, seems to me to that that would be worrying for nothing. I think Hal knows that he’s the one who wanted this move and so I think he’d be a bit more relaxed about the budget if there’s a player Cash wants and who may not have ordinarily fit in under the budget.

    The pick thing could be an issue, but it’s not like the Yankees are the Rays and can afford to take a year off…………. I will start really worrying if Hal starts making a habit of giving up our picks.

  106. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 1:28 pm

    Betsy -

    Lester and Clay were two years apart – Clay did not make it until 2010 – the very same year as Phil arrived and made it as an All-Star and won a playoff game against the Twins.

    The thing is – I do not think you can compare Lester and Clay to the Yankees development of their farm system. Look – Lester was drafted by a totally different regime – Lester came before Theo and his cronies. The Yankees – you have to really look at 2006 and on. They are not going to develop on the same timetable – or the exact timetable as the Sox – and if anything – the Sox have nothing – I mean absolutely nothing coming pitching wise now – why else did they sign John Lackey and have not traded Dice-K. There is just nothing imminent there after Casey Kelly was traded – except Jose Iglesias and Anthony Ranaudo (who was just a year ago seconds away from going under the knife until Boras pulled the plug and starting blowing smoke screens and had Ranaudo sit out of his college starts at LSU).

  107. mick January 23rd, 2011 at 1:30 pm

    mick…you see Carlo around

    ======================

    remember Doug in “The Hangover?”

  108. yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2011 at 1:31 pm

    joeman January 23rd, 2011 at 1:24 pm
    # yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2011 at 1:12 pm

    Bears-Packers are at 2PM?
    ——————————————————————

    3pm
    ______
    Thanks!

  109. joeman January 23rd, 2011 at 1:32 pm

    # mick January 23rd, 2011 at 1:30 pm

    mick…you see Carlo around

    ======================

    remember Doug in “The Hangover?”
    ———————————————–
    on a roof in Vegas

  110. ac1 January 23rd, 2011 at 1:35 pm

    Given the way opp. pitchers attacked Jeter with fastball after fastball after fastball the last half of last season, he had a HORRIBLE year.

    His bat speed is gone, and it’s been in decline for three years. He went through a long stretch in 2008 where he couldn’t drive the ball AT ALL… That stretch got longer in 2009, then last about the last 2/3 of the year last season.

    FYI – this is the POST-steroid era. Guys don’t “bounce back” at 37 any more.

    ___________________

    criticizing jeter’s 2009? the same 2009 where he hit .337 and was 3rd in MVP vote?

  111. West Coast Yankee Fan January 23rd, 2011 at 1:35 pm

    Crawdaddy January 23rd, 2011 at 1:24 pm

    “Just read the Madden article twice. Superb journalism, well researched with logical conclusions. There is a reason Madden is in the Hall of Fame.”

    Now, I see why so many others take their shots at your postings.

    ********************

    Really? Then I guess he being in the Hall of Fame is meaningless? And why would Sam write a column about Madden’s article and identify him as a Hall of Fame member? Sorry that independent critical thinking disturbs you.

  112. Against All Odds January 23rd, 2011 at 1:36 pm

    # Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 1:17 pm

    Against All Odds January 23rd, 2011 at 1:06 pm
    Very well said Betsy regarding the injuries that Phil sustained because it not only delayed his development it also put the Yankees behind the 8th ball. I think another big factor is the injury to Wang. That really started a chain of events that the Yankees have yet to recover from.

    I think the Yankees recovered from the Wang Houston Astros injury fiasco the second they won the 2009 WS. That Wang was never provided with a long term contract and the Yankees wanted to go year to year after Wang’s less than 2007 PS showed that Wang was going to be a very stable innings eater with his hard heavy sinker – but never the solution in the postseason. If anything – the Yankees have not recovered from the AJ 2010 ineffectiveness and the failure to land Cliff Lee – that is what the recovery needs to be from. If AJ can be a consistent below 4.5 ERA pitcher, finally pitch well against the Sox, and give us 13-15 wins – that will go a long way to help stabilizing the rotation. Say this though – I really thought AJ would be more of a problem from staying healthy physically than being an ineffective 5 ERA pitcher and headcase on the mound.

    ———————————————————————-

    I hear what you’re saying about Wang and you’re right they never locked him up long term which spoke volumes on how they viewed his durability but I believe the injury to Wang is part of the reason why they are in this situation right now. Would they be as desperate for pitching if Wang put up his 06/07 numbers, do they make a play for Lee, does Javy join the Yankees for a second stint, is Joba allowed to go down the minors when he loses the 5th spot if Wang is on the team, etc.

  113. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 1:37 pm

    The pick thing could be an issue, but it’s not like the Yankees are the Rays and can afford to take a year off…………. I will start really worrying if Hal starts making a habit of giving up our picks.

    Betsy – I would become more worried when the Yanks are not signing International Free Agents. This is where we can makeup for our lack top 10 selection in the U.S. amateur draft. And giving up a first rounder is not the end of the world. Our top 6 prospects – three are IFAs (Montero, Sanchez, and Banuelos) and two were selected in the second and the eighth round respectively (Romine and Betances). The only first rounder was Andrew Brackman – and he only fell to use b/c tj surgery was required. Also – remember the old saying – Mariano Rivera was not a first round draft pick – he was an IFA signing that required TJ surgery.

  114. ac1 January 23rd, 2011 at 1:38 pm

    He’s already not “hitting anymore” and Cashman just gave him a $56 million guarantee.

    ___

    And again, by your ‘logic’ that a bad year means you are done, cano would have been done in 2008 with his .270 avg.

    Good thing they didn’t write him off.

    I want to see more than one down year for Jeter before i agree he is finished, considering one year before that he hit over 330.

  115. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 1:39 pm

    LGY

    1. I like Cash, but this off-season has turned me off him a bit. If Joba is a reliever then why wasn’t he traded for Haren? If Haren was about Brackman/Robertson, then how do you not make that trade? Did he think Lee was a given? If so, that’s unacceptable. I’m not completely off of the Cash bandwagon, but I don’t think he’s done a good job this off-season and his SP sucks right now, so that’s on him.

    2. Hughes: We’ve been through that. I am not in any mood to get into an argument, so while I’m willing to discuss this in a civil manner, I will not be responding to any obnoxious posts (not from you – you wouldn’t be that way) that imply I’m insane for not thinking Phil is a stud in the making. LGY, I don’t think he had a great year last year, I’m sorry. I know he had historically great numbers in the minors, but not all minor leaguers translate that well to the big leagues. He may have looked like a Cy Young winner in the minors, but it seems like he dominated poor kids with 1 pitch. That’s why I think (and I agree with Randy) that he should have stayed down there until he developed a curve/change. The point is, he was mediocre/poor from Mid-May on and, in the post-season, he beat a toasted Twins team (with a FB he’ll probably never have again) and got clobbered by Texas. I’m being honest. As I said a couple of nights ago, Phil is a very good kid – the kind of youngster you would want being one of the faces of your franchise. He’s well-spoken and thoughtful and I don’t think he’d ever give a moment’s trouble. He’s also coachable. All these things are tremendous positives about him. IMO, though, I think that he’s never going to be a front of the rotation guy, not a guy you want on the mound in a huge spot (yes, I know about 2007). He’s a middle of the rotation starter at best for me. Now, if people think saying he’s a #3 type is trashing him, then that’s their issue – there’s nothing wrong with being a #3.

    3) Girardi – I like him personally, but I don’t think he’s a great manager by any means.

  116. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 1:41 pm

    Stone but that’s not what I’m doing. What I’m saying is that the Yankees got unlucky when Phil got hurt because it meant they had to develop 2 kids at the same time, something the Yankees were never going to do. I’m saying also that the Sox didn’t have to develop Lester and Buchholz at the same time, so they didn’t have the same problems.

  117. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 1:42 pm

    Stone, they did sign DePaula and that was a good move, but I’m hearing grumblings from Yankee fans that the Yankees don’t take enough advantage of their $$ in terms of IFA signings.

  118. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 1:44 pm

    I hear what you’re saying about Wang and you’re right they never locked him up long term which spoke volumes on how they viewed his durability but I believe the injury to Wang is part of the reason why they are in this situation right now. Would they be as desperate for pitching if Wang put up his 06/07 numbers, do they make a play for Lee, does Javy join the Yankees for a second stint, is Joba allowed to go down the minors when he loses the 5th spot if Wang is on the team, etc.

    My thing is that I do not think they ever lock up Wang to a 15 million a year contract – which is what he would have required if he continued to play the way he did in ’06 and ’07. The writing was on the wall when Cashman took full control – he wants power arms who can strikeout batters in the postseason – hence the C.C. and AJ signings. I love Wang – and I think he would have been great to have had in 2010 on the staff instead of Vazquez – and maybe Cashman would bring him back if he failed on signing Lee b/c Wang would be a FA this past 2010 offseason if he had stayed healthy. But Wang was not the setback – I felt they corrected that injury when they brought in C.C. to be the ace of the staff and supplemented him with AJ – the real setback and recovery comes with AJ. I do not think you win postseason games with Wang – maybe as a fourth starter I guess with C.C. and a no. 2 leading the way (which is what they thought they were getting with AJ and what they hope they have with Phil right now). But to me – the lack of AJ and his ineffectiveness in 2010 and the failure to bring in Cliff Lee or a pitcher of that stature to correct the AJ situation is what is hampering this team more than anything – and I do not think a healthy Wang or the Wang of ’06 and ’07 solves the situation – neither does Phil Hughes at this moment either – Hughes and Wang are game 3 or game 4 starters in the postseason – we need that no. 2 – that Matt Cain to his Tim Lincencum.

  119. Against All Odds January 23rd, 2011 at 1:45 pm

    # Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 1:21 pm

    The fact that Buchholz wasn’t ready just means he was something of a late developer, though. The point is, Lester and and Buchholz were at least a year apart (for whatever reason). Phil’s injuries put him on the same exact timeline as Joba – and that was a problem. In any case, I may have jumped the gun on Phil in 2008. I can’t say if he would have been any better than in 2007 because teams would have adjusted and he didn’t even have his cutter. So, for all I know, maybe he would have been bad without the injury in 2008 and would have been sent down. We’ll never know any of this.

    Odds, I don’t agree about Wang. Joba was already in the rotation and Phil was in AAA…………How did his injury affect Phil and Joba?

    ——————————————-

    The injury to Wang affected everything. Andy pitched hurt down the stretch of that yr. Joba took on a bigger role in the rotation. IMO everything was thrown off when Wang was injured. I still remember members on the YES board stating that losing Wang wasn’t a big deal???????? Wait a second losing a two time 19 game winner is not a loss??? I think some ppl(not saying you are one of them) undervalued the importance of Wang.

  120. RS January 23rd, 2011 at 1:47 pm

    Betsy, I think the point about Wang is that his injury really messed up the Yankees rotation overall. If they still had his 19 wins and 3.75 ERA to plug into the rotation, no one would be complaining about lack of depth, and the Yankees would be a lock for near 100 wins.

  121. Against All Odds January 23rd, 2011 at 1:48 pm

    @ Stoneburner we’re going to agree to disagree on Wang.

  122. Rich in NJ January 23rd, 2011 at 1:50 pm

    “I’ll say this though: If and when he does go, whatever the circumstances, I do think there will be plenty of fans who find themselves missing him more than they expected.”

    Amen, especially if he is replaced by a yes man.

  123. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 1:51 pm

    Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 1:42 pm
    Stone, they did sign DePaula and that was a good move, but I’m hearing grumblings from Yankee fans that the Yankees don’t take enough advantage of their $$ in terms of IFA signings.

    I am not sure I 100% agree with this – b/c when evaluating potential prospects – it really is a guessing games. Look – the A’s are completely devastated by the Michael Inoa signing – they paid him beaucoup dollars and he has been riddled with injuries and inconsistency. The Yankees paid pennies on the dollars for Manny Banuelos out of the Mexican league around the same time – and now Ban-Ban is considered more of a lock to reach his potential than the generational Inoa. You just never know. Robbie Cano was not a huge IFA signing – not in terms of seven figures. I think just because the Yankees do not spend the most does not mean they are not getting the best quality. Plus – the IFA front had been riddled with fraud (age verification of some of these guys anyone – think Alfonso Soriano, etc.) with the agents/buscones. The Yanks have thrown around their muscle and done well for the most part – their top two prospects are from the IFA front – and they are well regarded throughout baseball as nice trade chips.

  124. Rich in NJ January 23rd, 2011 at 1:51 pm

    No pun intended.

  125. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 1:51 pm

    Stone, I think I agree almost 100% with that.

    Wang was a very good pitcher, but he was limited- and he was not, I agree, a pitcher you want on the mound in a post-season game. His injury really hurt the Yankees for that year, but I’m not sure in the long-run that it was anymore damaging to the Yankees’ future than Phil’s injuries. The Yanks were counting on Phil and Joba to be future studs in their rotation………..We’ll see what Phil does, but that will never happen now with Joba (though I don’t think that’s because of Phil’s injuries or him losing his job to Phil in 2010).

    One more thing about Cash: give me a break about how Joba is a reliever because his stuff plays better out of the pen. Any starter’s stuff is better. Phil’s stuff was FAR better out of the pen than it was as a starter and he technically has fewer pitches than Joba. So, it’s something else that is making them determine that Phil is a starter and Joba a reliever.

  126. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 1:52 pm

    RS, I think Wang’s injury killed them for that year, but Phil’s injuries did more lasting damage to the future rotation

  127. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    Against All Odds January 23rd, 2011 at 1:48 pm
    @ Stoneburner we’re going to agree to disagree on Wang.

    That’s cool – I see what you are saying – I just never thought Wang was the type of pitcher they were craving – at least Cashman – especially when it comes to the postseason – especially after the 2007 ALDS. Good regular season innings eater – but it has been the lack of finding that true compliment to C.C. that has and will hold this staff back – and that the Yankees will not be able to recover from until they find that guy – who many thought Cliff Lee would be – I personally think it will turn out to be John Danks – but hey – that’s me.

  128. Tom in N.J. January 23rd, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    Madden won an award. He’s not in the HoF.

    Calling him a “Hall of Famer” is like calling somebody who receives an honorary doctorate a Dr..

  129. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    Stone, I don’t really have an opinion on the IFA thing because some of those fans I referred to seem to hate the franchise, hate the GM, hate everything about the team…………I’m not sure they are objective.

  130. RS January 23rd, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    The Yankees are doing just fine on the international front, IMO. Cano, Montero, Sanchez, Aceves, Banuelos, Vizcaino, Wang, Melky, and before that, Rivera, Bernie, and Posada. These guys have all been tremendously valuable to the team at one point or another.

  131. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 1:55 pm

    Stone, I assume the Yankees think Phil can eventually be that guy………I don’t know if they still think he’s a#1, but they might still think he fits well behind CC.

  132. 108 stitches January 23rd, 2011 at 1:56 pm

    The only wrong thing that happened for Cashman during the offseason was Cliff Lee going elsewhere. It was a foregone conclusion that Lee would be a Yankee and it backfired.
    It was commonly known that Vazquez had to be replaced, Burnett needed to be fixed, and no sure thing that Pettitte would return.
    The Yankees didn’t need Crawford or Werth. What’s left in the starting pitching market is thin or unavailable until Cashman can make the right deal.

  133. GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2011 at 1:56 pm

    Posada was a 24th round draft pick, not an IFA.

  134. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 1:59 pm

    Betsy wrote:

    His injury really hurt the Yankees for that year, but I’m not sure in the long-run that it was anymore damaging to the Yankees’ future than Phil’s injuries.

    I half agree with this. For me – the setback has been the lack of a true no. 2 guy behind C.C. Now – maybe without Hughes’s injuries the plan might have been to have Hughes – at the age of 24 – develop into that guy – but I think at his 24 age season – his third season in the majors service time wise for arbitration purposes – the Yankees really did not have that expectation on Phil. They were thinking more along the lines – hey – wouldn’t it be great if this kid could pitch the third of fourth game of a playoff series – which he did in the ALDS – and which he probably would have been better off doing in the ALCS – be a no. 4 game starter.

    The real setback has been AJ IMO – the Yanks got him – and Cashman has even reiterated this offseason in his comments about how Rothschild is going to AJ’s barn in Maryland to work with him and his mechanics – that AJ was brought in to be that guy – the no. 2 guy. Now – if Phil had stayed healthy during the 2008 season – would that have negated the need for signing AJ – that – which I think is your point – holds merit. I do not know if the Yanks go out and still get AJ at that point – my guess is that they probably still do based on how well he pitched against him – remember Johnny Damon and Alex Rodriguez were practically banging on Cashman’s doors to bring in AJ and his nasty 2008 season stuff.

  135. West Coast Yankee Fan January 23rd, 2011 at 1:59 pm

    Tom in N.J. January 23rd, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    Madden won an award. He’s not in the HoF. Calling him a “Hall of Famer” is like calling somebody who receives an honorary doctorate a Dr.

    ***************

    Bill Madden was elected to the writers’ wing of the Baseball Hall of Fame.

  136. Against All Odds January 23rd, 2011 at 2:02 pm

    # Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    Against All Odds January 23rd, 2011 at 1:48 pm
    @ Stoneburner we’re going to agree to disagree on Wang.

    That’s cool – I see what you are saying – I just never thought Wang was the type of pitcher they were craving – at least Cashman – especially when it comes to the postseason – especially after the 2007 ALDS. Good regular season innings eater – but it has been the lack of finding that true compliment to C.C. that has and will hold this staff back – and that the Yankees will not be able to recover from until they find that guy – who many thought Cliff Lee would be – I personally think it will turn out to be John Danks – but hey – that’s me.

    —————————————–

    Yes Wang wasn’t a pitcher they craved as far as PS because the Yankees wanted SO guys in October and Wang did fit the bill.

  137. YsGuy January 23rd, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    first off, i respect brian cashman and i feel some people should give him a little more respect as a part of the team over the last 15+ years. cashman’s time with the yankees has been great overall, despite some failings all around. this is a very very hard place to operate and i’m sure that whenever cash leaves we will see whoever comes in next make some big blunders, too. hopefully whoever that next person is will be as successful as cashman has been.

    that being said, i feel the same now as i did last time his contract came up, which is, wait till the end of this season, assess his performance over his last contract and decide then. thats what cashman wanted last time, thats what the yankees should want this time. its no easy decision either way.

    if what madden says is true and bc wants out, then it will be easy at the end of this year, the yankees should thank him and move on to that next guy. if not, alot will depend on what happens this season. cashman can wait and so can the yankees.

  138. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    RS January 23rd, 2011 at 1:54 pm
    The Yankees are doing just fine on the international front, IMO. Cano, Montero, Sanchez, Aceves, Banuelos, Vizcaino, Wang, Melky, and before that, Rivera, Bernie, and Posada. These guys have all been tremendously valuable to the team at one point or another.

    And RS – even during the down years on the farm wise – the Yanks have always mined the IFA front – now they may be busts – but at the time of the signing – they were applauded coup/deals. Take a look:

    Alfonso Soriano – signed away from Japan
    Hideki Irabu
    Jose Contreras
    Jackson Melian
    Juan Rivera
    Wily Mo Pena
    D’Angelo Jiminez
    Christian Guzman
    Dioneer Navaro
    and the biggest one of them all – Mats

    And ditto Greenberet – Po was a U.S. Amateur signing – but we are just arguing over little stuff at that point.

  139. Tom in N.J. January 23rd, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    Bill Madden was awarded the J. G. Taylor Spink Award:

    “Winners are not considered to be members of the Hall. They are not “inducted” or “enshrined”, but are permanently recognized in an exhibit at the Hall’s library.”

  140. Dionysius Thelxinoe January 23rd, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    Tom in N.J. says:
    January 23, 2011 at 1:53 pm
    Madden won an award. He’s not in the HoF.

    Calling him a “Hall of Famer” is like calling somebody who receives an honorary doctorate a Dr..

    ————

    Tom, when someone is conferred an honorary doctorate, they CAN be referred to as “Dr.”

    And when you visit the HoF, you will find Bill Madden’s name in there.

    Like it or not, dem’s de facts.

  141. ac1 January 23rd, 2011 at 2:04 pm

    One more thing about Cash: give me a break about how Joba is a reliever because his stuff plays better out of the pen. Any starter’s stuff is better. Phil’s stuff was FAR better out of the pen than it was as a starter and he technically has fewer pitches than Joba. So, it’s something else that is making them determine that Phil is a starter and Joba a reliever.

    ____

    Phil gained 2 mph on his fastball in the pen. Doesn’t seem that different. Joba went from the pen, to throwing 91 mph meatballs in the rotation. He made the other stuff work, but his fastball wasnt close. Could be the tendinitis and not being 100 recovered, but there was a huge diff.

    That being said, i say they should be letting him compete for the 5th spot again like last year. If he fails, back to the pen. I dont see the harm in letting him come to camp to compete with Mitre.

  142. Against All Odds January 23rd, 2011 at 2:05 pm

    # RS January 23rd, 2011 at 1:47 pm

    Betsy, I think the point about Wang is that his injury really messed up the Yankees rotation overall. If they still had his 19 wins and 3.75 ERA to plug into the rotation, no one would be complaining about lack of depth, and the Yankees would be a lock for near 100 wins.

    ——————————————

    This.

    If he was still here giving them his production the only question would be is Andy coming back or not. Mitre wouldn’t even be an option

  143. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 2:05 pm

    Stone, you’re right – AJ’s complete and utter regression absolutely killed the Yankees last year……….and so did Javy’s. I really thought that if Javy had a decent year, they could re-sign him. So now because of AJ’s implosion, he’s a complete question mark next year – to the point where we have to rely on a 24 year old 2nd year starter to be our #2. In order for our rotation to be halfway decent, CC has to be great, Phil has to pitch very well and AJ has to pitch very well (no, it’s not enough to just not be decent). That’s not even taking into account a mediocre Mitre and a kid in Nova.

  144. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 2:08 pm

    Bill Madden was elected to the writers’ wing of the Baseball Hall of Fame.

    To me – it is an absolute fiasco – none of these supposed baseball writers should be anywhere near the HOF if they did not report on the steroid era while it was going on and blow the whistle or at least write about – hey how are these guys hitting these many HRs – or what is going on. For these same writers to now decide who is elected to the HOF from a player’s standpoint when they were either negligent or incompetent when this stuff was going on – they cannot all become moralists on the subject now (fingerpoint to some other daily news columnists as well)

  145. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 2:08 pm

    AC, regardless of velocity, Phil’s stuff (however you want to define it – I doubt it’s made up just of velocity) was clearly much better – and 2 MPH is not a small amount. Maybe Joba tried to hold himself back as a starter because he thought he had to pace himself. If so, that’s a mental thing and not a physical one. When Phil went into the rotation last year, he told MLB that he specifically decided to go all out – that he would throw his very best for as long as he could, after which the Yanks could remove him. Maybe that’s the mentality that Joba lacked as a starter.

    Either way, Phil aside, any starter will have better stuff in the pen.

  146. YsGuy January 23rd, 2011 at 2:08 pm

    from the HOF website:

    “The Ford C. Frick Award is presented annually to a broadcaster for “major contributions to baseball.”

    there is no ‘wing’ of the HOF for writers. they dont list the frick winners in the members section, they list it separatly in the awards section.

  147. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 2:09 pm

    Even if you want to call Madden a HOFer, fine – but I think he’s a joke and I don’t ever read anything he writes; I just don’t take him seriously.

  148. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 2:15 pm

    Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 2:05 pm
    Stone, you’re right – AJ’s complete and utter regression absolutely killed the Yankees last year……….and so did Javy’s. I really thought that if Javy had a decent year, they could re-sign him. So now because of AJ’s implosion, he’s a complete question mark next year – to the point where we have to rely on a 24 year old 2nd year starter to be our #2. In order for our rotation to be halfway decent, CC has to be great, Phil has to pitch very well and AJ has to pitch very well (no, it’s not enough to just not be decent). That’s not even taking into account a mediocre Mitre and a kid in Nova.

    Betsy – I agree mostly – but I kind of always viewed Javy as a stopgap – but I guess if he had a 2009 type season for the Yanks – the Yanks might have brought him back. I always thought the goal was to do Sabathia 2.0 this offseason with Cliff Lee – which it appears was the plan – just for whatever reason – it did not happen. And the plan is always constantly evolving – just like it now has become the organizational’s plan (not Cashman’s) to switch to a lock down bullpen in the face of a very fragile rotation.

    But here is the thing – for me – I am not really worried about the kid Nova – I did see enough that has me a tad excited – b/c – as I have said – the kid has a change – that change against the White Sox that day game – it was pretty nice. I wish Phil had confidence in that kind of change. Another thing with Nova is that he sort of reminds me of a Bret Gardner his last season – struggles initially at a level – and then the next season – comes back at that level – performs well – and then gets promoted – Nova did that with AAA experience. But the kid has good velo – and good separation speed with his change – a change that darts down on the batter and really is not that much different – IMO – from what master Clay throws up north – and Nova is I believe two years younger than generational-I hope my peripherals to my ERA stay there – Clay up north.

    For me – I am scare ^&%$less that Mitre is anywhere near this rotation potentially at this juncture in late January. Anyone have Andy’s phone number OR Kenny Williams phone number so I can go get John Danks???

  149. jacksquat January 23rd, 2011 at 2:17 pm

    I like Cashman and hope he stays.

  150. Dionysius Thelxinoe January 23rd, 2011 at 2:18 pm

    Betsy, I consider the HoF a joke.

    Joe DiMaggio didn’t get elected in his first ballot.

    And yet, they’ve “enshrined” a .260 lifetime hitter.

    They refuse to elect Marvin Miller, whose impact on the game imo is surpassed only by The Babe.

    And yet, they’ve “enshrined” Bowie Kuhn, a clown of a commissioner.

  151. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 2:18 pm

    YsGuy January 23rd, 2011 at 2:08 pm
    from the HOF website:

    “The Ford C. Frick Award is presented annually to a broadcaster for “major contributions to baseball.”

    there is no ‘wing’ of the HOF for writers. they dont list the frick winners in the members section, they list it separatly in the awards section.

    While you may be technically correct – the baseball writers elect the HOF players – and they refer to Madden as HOF writer. It is this elitist group that has way too much power and has way too much blemishes on their record to decide anymore who gets in and does not get in from the steroid era.

  152. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 2:22 pm

    Dionysius Thelxinoe January 23rd, 2011 at 2:18 pm
    Betsy, I consider the HoF a joke.

    Joe DiMaggio didn’t get elected in his first ballot.

    And yet, they’ve “enshrined” a .260 lifetime hitter.

    They refuse to elect Marvin Miller, whose impact on the game imo is surpassed only by The Babe.

    And yet, they’ve “enshrined” Bowie Kuhn, a clown of a commissioner.

    I think you make some excellent points – but the HOF does represent the gold standard – and the fact that some generational greats did not get in on the first ballot b/c the HOF was not established until later always added to the mystique of the process. It is an imperfect game – always will – especially given that minorities were not allowed to play for the first two eras of the games inception. But the writers have gone too far with the steroid era – they have too much blood on their hands to become moralists on the subject now – and honoring Bill Madden – when he contributed nothing on the steroid era especially from 1994 to 2003 – yet they want to exclude steroid linked players – please. . . .

  153. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 2:23 pm

    Stone, I’m not saying Nova isn’t talented, but he’s still a kid and major league hitters will adjust. He’ll be ok – which if we had a better rotation would be just fine as a #5. I’m not expecting him to be bad, but I’m not expecting him to be great. Some pitchers do things well or worse than other pitchers. Nova seems to have a very good FB, throws harder than Phil to be sure – not sure of his command. Since he’s aggressive and has better secondary pitches than Phil it does surprise me that he’s generally viewed only as a back end of the rotation starter. IMO, I’m not sure how necessary Phil thinks his breaking pitches are – which is why he hasn’t committed to the change and why he can’t ever find a curve he’s happy with. I kind of think he’s FB happy. The one thing I wish Nova could teach Phil is aggressiveness. I remember one game where a Yankee hitter got hit and it was clearly on purpose. Phil didn’t attempt to back his hitters up by even throwing inside………….yet Nova, in his first game, had no problems throwing inside to Jays hitters. Phil could use some of Nova and Joba’s chutzpah.

    Mitre in the rotation – what they see in this guy I have no idea.

  154. SAS January 23rd, 2011 at 2:25 pm

    I was going to say something entirely different at the beginning of the thread, but the whole discussion has changed.

    In my amateur opinion, Wang’s demise truly hurt the Yankees and their plans more than any other player I can think of. There was no way to replace and they still haven’t.

    ————————————————————————————-

    My other comment was about Cashman and the future. I don’t think he would be anxious to leave. He is from the area and has kids in school etc. He also has an enormous budget to work with. He would be hard pressed to find another club to match the Yankees and what he himself is paid, etc.

    The ownership would be hard pressed to find a GM who can work with them and deal with the NY market.

    We shall see.

    ———————————————-

    I think the Yankees pay more for free agents because they are the Yankees. and players/agents expect it. I also think that they pay more for trades in terms of who the Yankees get and who they have to give up for that player(s).

  155. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 2:25 pm

    I don’t have much quibble with the HOF, Dionysis, but it makes no sense to me why voters don’t vote for certain players because either they don’t want a unanimous vote or they don’t think the player should get in on the first ballot. It’s really more of a problem with sportswriters – I don’t respect them very much

  156. Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 2:26 pm

    By the way, I think Bill White is coming out with a book – I need to check that out. I really want to read about his time as a Yankee broadcaster – I loved him with Scooter and Messer.

  157. Nick in SF January 23rd, 2011 at 2:28 pm

    Madden is actually a member of the Hall of Fume. If you ever get a whiff of him, you’ll know why.

  158. Dionysius Thelxinoe January 23rd, 2011 at 2:29 pm

    Stoneburner, as to the steroid era and the tacit complicity of the ENTIRE media as well as baseball management, I agree with you 100%.

  159. 108 stitches January 23rd, 2011 at 2:36 pm

    Bill Madden was elected to the writers’ wing of the Baseball Hall of Fame.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    So was Gammons and he’s known all over the country as a Boston shill and Theo Epstein’s guitar playing pal.

  160. Keith--FL January 23rd, 2011 at 2:36 pm

    I do like what Cashman has done with the farm system but we need to see some more results from the farm to really know more…will Nova be a good starter this year, will these young pitchers, the Killer B’s produce at the major league level….Cashman has a tough job because unless the Yankees and the media and fans are willing to absorb and can handle 2 bridge years with young players playing and the Yankees not making the playoffs it’s extremely hard to build a new championship core…but how come Andy Pettitte is the last top-notch starter with awesome playoff success is the last one we have developed 15 years ago now as I feel a young starting pitcher is easier to plug in once every 5 days…so that is a question for Cashman that has no answer unless Hughes or Nova can be great with the playoff success required by the Yankees….finally I hated Cashman’s offseason last year coming off the Championship as getting rid of Matsui was dumb as he could have been a great DH this past year for us and we would not have needed Thames or Berkman, plus Randy Winn was a joke….and I really felt the Yankees had to sign Soriano to have an awesome bullpen and Cashman is on record as saying he did not want to do it which in and of itself was stupid to say, but he had to after the first round draft pick comment….with the situation he Yankees are in an aging roster in parts we have to take advantage now and try to win and Cashman’s personal agenda of lowering payroll does not fit with that so I am glad ownership stepped in to sign Soriano…..I think a fresh perspective on things would be better for the Yankees in the future with a new GM and Cashman could go and be GM for the KC Royals, Houston Astros, or the Pittsburgh Pirates….I have just not seen enough from Cashman and have seen a lot of bad decisions, ie…letting Jeff Nelson go, Jarred Wright, Ted Lilly traded for Weaver, Posada’s 4 year contract to name a few to be too upset if he leaves….it could just be time for Cashman to move on like it was for Torre….

  161. SAS January 23rd, 2011 at 2:39 pm

    Betsy,

    I loved Rizzuto and White but never cared for Messer.

  162. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 2:40 pm

    Betsy – It’s a thin line comparing Nova and Hughes – which is why I wish they were one pitcher. Hughes has better command and throws more strikes. Nova I think has a more explosive fastball that he does not command well and goes out of the zone – which is why you will probably see Nova walk more guys than Phil. Nova does have a better change at this point – or at least he throws it more and has more confidence in it. I think Phil pounds the strike zone – it is just – with some lineups – they foul off his fastball – and make him give in. Hughes needs something else to have guys either miss the fastball (which a change would help with the separation in speed but with the same delivery of a fastball) or another breaking pitch that will allow for a strikout or an easy out. The killer for Hughes would be he gets to an 0-2 count – but then the fouling off begins – and then he lays a pitch in there that would get smacked. Kid is still 24 – really like him – already and All-Star – let’s see what he has in store for the 2011 season. I think another thing that is lost with Hughes is that he was the star pitcher for an organization when the prospect barrel was bare – Nova is coming up with when there is a whole wave on top of wave of pitching prospects coming. I am not sure how 2011 Nova would be viewed by everyone if he was coming up in 2008 – he might have been just right there with Hughes, Joba, and Kennedy – along with Horne before the injury riddled season.

  163. BoJo January 23rd, 2011 at 2:41 pm

    Betsy January 23rd, 2011 at 11:19 am

    Madden is never right about anything. He is Pukica’s twin brother in their hatred for the Yankees…….. It’s kind of hard to say Cash has gone overboard in promoting his youngsters when aside from Gardner, what youngster has played a signficant role (excluding pitchers) on this team? I’m not counting Cano – he’s youngish, but he’s in his prime and he’s been on the team for several years now. So Madden probably criticized Cash for emphasizing youth, but when the Yankees had a barren farm system, he criticized them for that. His articles are good for one thing only – to line a birdcage
    +++++++++++++++++
    I strongly disagree. They are also great for lining cat litter boxes. You have to be fair.

  164. Dionysius Thelxinoe January 23rd, 2011 at 2:42 pm

    Gammons is in the HoF?!?!?!?

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

  165. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 2:43 pm

    108 stitches January 23rd, 2011 at 2:36 pm
    Bill Madden was elected to the writers’ wing of the Baseball Hall of Fame.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    So was Gammons and he’s known all over the country as a Boston shill and Theo Epstein’s guitar playing pal.

    Could not have said this any better. The fall that has been Gammons’s career is startling. Here is a man in the 70s, 80, and 90s – revolutionized rumors and hot stove baseball with his Diamond Notes column. It was only when John Henry and his wine and cheese parties took over the Red Sox and Theo came in with the Harvard background, forcing Dan Duquette and his acquisitions of Pedro Martinez and Manny Ramirez and drafts of Kevin Youkillis and Jon Lester out the door – did Gammons turn into a full-time Red Sox cheerleader.

  166. jackamir January 23rd, 2011 at 2:45 pm

    RAB’s post on Mark Teixeira is a good read. Tex really gets it and he is an ideal Role Model for the talented youth of America……. Now if he can have a good April, Mark could be at the top of my list of men I’d like to have Dinner with.

  167. blake January 23rd, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    I don’t see why Cashman would take such a stance over a draft pick and appear so long term oriented if he was planning on leaving. I don’t see it….of course I guesss they could always hire Omar Minaya.

  168. DaSaint007 January 23rd, 2011 at 2:51 pm

    Interesting dialogue today. My 5 cents:

    Yankees would never have given Wang a long-term, $15+M contract, which is what he was heading for. While the injury set them back rotation wise, it saved them financially. Cashman & Co. prefer power arms. Swing-and-miss pitchers: CC, AJ, Vazquez, and technically Hughes & Joba. Just didn’t work out as planned.

    Almost everyone in baseball (GMs, players, writers, & fans) expected Lee to sign with the Yankees as it was known that they would agressively pursue him. It didn’t work out as expected because Lee did the unexpected. Lee was the top FA pitcher on the market by a wide margin.

    Saying Cashman didn’t plan properly for the unexpected is like saying you’ve got a ticket for a flight to Aruba and the one airline that has a direct flight there drops the route the day before you’re planning to leave and refunds your money. Now you’re left trying to figure out what other airlines go there and how many stops it will take to your destination since there is no other non-stop carrier. Now was that your fault? Should you have had another ticket just in case?

    No other GM in baseball has had their team have the success the Yankees have under Cashman’s tenure. I hope he stays so he can watch the minor league system’s best players make it to the big club, but should he leave I wish him the best. Sometimes you never know what you had until you lose it.

    You know, like Wang.

  169. SAS January 23rd, 2011 at 2:52 pm

    Blake,

    That isn’t even funny…lol

  170. Doreen January 23rd, 2011 at 2:52 pm

    How much does longevity have to do with a writer getting recognized with an award? I’d say a lot. And I’d say that as long as their are no real clunkers along the way, as long as the writer develops sources who are more reliable than not, and doesn’t embarrass himself, and as long as he writes for a reputable outlet with a big following, his chances of getting such an award are pretty good.

    I try not to judge these sportswriters too harshly (except for Lupica, who has a very clear agenda and seems to despise the team I love), because in all honesty it’s human nature to like a writer whose opinion you generally agree with and dislike one with whom you generally disagree. It’s pretty subjective.

    I find the longer some of the NY writers are in the business, the more cynical they seem to be adn it comes through in their writing and I tend to not like that.

    One example for me is Joel Sherman. Much of the time I don’t like him, but I’d have to admit that he seems to have good sources, writes fairly well and you’ll find both compliments and criticisms toward the Yankees.

    I tend to like reporters like Ty Kepner, Jack Curry, Marc Carig, Dan Castellano, who write most objectively. I don’t feel like their criticism or praise carries an agenda. At least that’s how I read them.

    I also like other writers, and the above were just a few that readily came to mind. My preference in sportswriting is what you’ll often read from Sam and Joe Posnanski.

    It’s team coverage type stuff that is generally not fun to read.

    I find it very silly though that every day we seem to have a debate here about sportswriters. Aren’t there blogs for that? If not, perhaps someone should start one.

  171. blake January 23rd, 2011 at 2:54 pm

    SAS,

    you’re right ;)

  172. blake January 23rd, 2011 at 3:03 pm

    Doreen,

    I used to not like Sherman much either but he’s on the radio a lot now and he’s growing on me after listening to him actually talk. I think hes serious about his job and I just don’t get the idea that he has agendas…..

  173. Doreen January 23rd, 2011 at 3:07 pm

    Blake -

    Same here – the more I listened to him on radio, the more I considered what he had to say. And while I don’t agree with everything he writes I don’t feel the same negativity coming from him that I do from others.

    ****

    Bears or Packers?

    I originally picked Bears, but then I remembered GB’s QB. Can I change my pick?

  174. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 3:07 pm

    blake January 23rd, 2011 at 2:49 pm
    I don’t see why Cashman would take such a stance over a draft pick and appear so long term oriented if he was planning on leaving. I don’t see it….of course I guesss they could always hire Omar Minaya.

    I think the theory goes that what may have Cashman leave is that ownership overruled his advice to not sign Soriano and stick with the draft pick b/c nothing was worth giving up the draft pick on the FA market. So the idea of Cashman wanting to leave did not surface until ownership overruled him on the Soriano signing. It really depends on how much Cashman minds being overruled and having it portrayed and blown up in the media that he is not 100% running the show.

  175. blake January 23rd, 2011 at 3:11 pm

    I don’t think any GM is 100% in control. I would be shocked if Cashman leaves….they have been saying stuff like this for years.

  176. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 3:12 pm

    blake January 23rd, 2011 at 3:03 pm
    Doreen,

    I used to not like Sherman much either but he’s on the radio a lot now and he’s growing on me after listening to him actually talk. I think hes serious about his job and I just don’t get the idea that he has agendas…..

    I agree that Sherman does not appear to have an agenda like Lupica or Madden. What drives me a little crazy about Sherman is that he sometimes projects and speculates prematurely about what he would do if he was the GM. This can be a good thing sometimes and other times it can be a little annoying. For example, in speculating about a potential King Felix trade, he started throwing around names of what he would offer to Seattle and then got some unnamed talent evaluators to weigh in – it was an interesting read – I guess – and he had a valid point that maybe the Yankees overvalue their prospects too much – but I would just prefer he stick with hard rumors he hears rather than playing fantasy baseball trade speculation – which is what you would expect from comments of fans on a blog such as this.

  177. SAS January 23rd, 2011 at 3:13 pm

    I’ll pick the Packers and the Jets.

  178. MaineYankee January 23rd, 2011 at 3:13 pm

    Doreen

    but then I remembered GB’s QB. Can I change my pick?

    ————————————————————————

    Is that based on ability or looks? :lol:

  179. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 3:14 pm

    blake January 23rd, 2011 at 3:11 pm
    I don’t think any GM is 100% in control. I would be shocked if Cashman leaves….they have been saying stuff like this for years.

    That is the bill of goods we were sold after Cashman gained what the pundits said full control over baseball operations and centralized the NY and Tampa offices until one voice. I do not blame Cashman if he feels jilted by this Soriano fiasco. It did not look good with his comments about not giving up a draft pick and then days later Soriano is signed in a full panic move b/c the rotation was fragile.

  180. SAS January 23rd, 2011 at 3:15 pm

    I just turned the game on

  181. Nick in SF January 23rd, 2011 at 3:15 pm

    What we want is points, preferably with the Packers scoring at least four more of them than the Bears score.

  182. GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2011 at 3:15 pm

    The problem with most sports writers today if that they are more interested in trying to be smarter than the next doorknob and trying to show everyone else that they are more right than actually telling the story of the person or game. It’s been that way for years and basically, they are carbon copies of each other. Just keep your opinions to yourself and shut up about seeing yourselves as the”Keepers Of The Game.”

    Try telling the sory like this:

    “Outlined against a blue-gray October sky the Four Horsemen rode again. In dramatic lore they are known as famine, pestilence, destruction and death. These are only aliases. Their real names are: Stuhldreher, Miller, Crowley and Layden. They formed the crest of the South Bend cyclone before which another fighting Army team was swept over the precipice at the Polo Grounds this afternoon as 55,000 spectators peered down upon the bewildering panorama spread out upon the green plain below.”

    When was the last time a writer waxed poetic about something other than himself?

    “For when the One Great Scorer comes
    To write against your name,
    He marks – not that you won or lost –
    But how you played the Game.”

    Or this:

    “The loafer has no come-back and the quitter no reply,
    When the Anvil Chorus echoes, as it will, against the sky;
    But there’s one quick answer ready that will wrap them in a hood:
    Make good.”

    Grantland Rice. Look him up and read somr his articles..or read some of Ring Lardner or Studs Terkel.

  183. blake January 23rd, 2011 at 3:17 pm

    Stoneburner,

    Yea I can see that….he’s going to give opinions in his columns because that’s what he’s paid to do and some are going to be better than others but I do like the fact that he seems rather objective and thick skinned.

  184. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 3:20 pm

    blake January 23rd, 2011 at 3:17 pm
    Stoneburner,

    Yea I can see that….he’s going to give opinions in his columns because that’s what he’s paid to do and some are going to be better than others but I do like the fact that he seems rather objective and thick skinned.

    No doubt – I really do enjoy the columns – and I like the 3 up that he does – it is just sometimes he goes a little too far to LF with some of his trade ideas – b/c I guess I just expect with someone like him that he will deal more with what he is hearing – so if I read an article by an established journalist like Sherman speculating about King Felix – while I am reading it I cannot help but think – man can we get King Felix – and of course that is all a pipe dream at this point. But no doubt – for me it is night and day b/s someone like Sherman and some of the other guys at the Daily News.

  185. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 3:22 pm

    Another thing that I admire about Sherman from a personal standpoint is that he did give it to the Mets – and you could also see that this rankled Lupica to the point he had to go on the defensive and defend his lunch buddy Jeff Wilpon. But that is just on a personal note.

  186. blake January 23rd, 2011 at 3:24 pm

    Stoneburner,

    It probably is a pipe dream but I think Felix is going to be available sometime….maybe even this summer if Seattle is bad enough.

  187. Stoneburner January 23rd, 2011 at 3:29 pm

    blake January 23rd, 2011 at 3:24 pm
    Stoneburner,

    It probably is a pipe dream but I think Felix is going to be available sometime….maybe even this summer if Seattle is bad enough.

    True – could be – I have a feeling a guy like Josh Johnson (3 years away from FA vs. 4 for King Felix and not as much as the face of the franchise as Felix) may come available before King Felix – I also think John Danks could become available before King Felix – same with Lincencum – two years away from FA and it will be interesting whether SF Giants pony up the 20 million plus it will take – which I think they will now with the WS championship already in place and all the good will.

  188. SAS January 23rd, 2011 at 3:31 pm

    One step away :arrow:

  189. Dionysius Thelxinoe January 23rd, 2011 at 3:44 pm

    Stoneburner, Marlins are getting ready to open a new park, and they’ve taken heat from local politicians for crying poverty in order to get public funding, then having the media revelation that they actually made a profit. MLB has also made public remarks about the need for certain teams (read Marlins) to invest back into the club, rather than pocketing funds received from revenue sharing and luxury tax.

    JJ’s contract bumps up to $13.75MM for 2012-13, up from the $7.75MM this year. But if he pitches up to potential and stays injury-free, even the higher contract will be a bargain.

    Anything can happen, but I don’t think so, in his case.

  190. MG January 23rd, 2011 at 3:44 pm

    I’ll never understand this concept of pigeonholing a pitcher into a spot in the starting rotation. ‘He’s a decent #3 but not a #2′ or ‘he isn’t very good but is OK as the #5′. Is Cliff Lee a better pitcher on the Phillies because Halladay is the #1 starter?

    Pitchers are pitchers, they can either be successful as a starter or not. In this day and age, a pitcher who averages a ‘quality start’ (another term I hate), which is 6 innings and 3 earned runs, would have to be consider a plus in the rotation. The ERA for the baseline ‘quality start’ is 4.50, anything better than that for a Yankees starter, considering the strength of the offense, has to be considered a big plus.

    Baseball is a game of subtle differences, of very fine lines between a good team winning the World Series and being knocked out in the playoffs. The Yankees were within 2 games of the WS last year in spite of off years from Jeter, Arod, Teix, AJ, Posada, 2/3 of a bad year from Granderson, a weakness in the rotation with Vazquez, etc, etc, etc. How many of you would take a bet that Jeter, Arod, and Teix have poorer stats than last year? I know I’d be willing to bet that each of them has a better year in 2011, AJ can’t be any worse, and Hughes will be better. The team may not win it all but will be in contention and has at least a 90% chance of being in the playoffs, at which time, as has been shown time and time again, the hot team wins. None of you could have predicted the Giants winning it all a year ago and that the key hitters in the WS would be Edgar Renteria and Cody Ross.

  191. hardwired7 January 26th, 2011 at 10:07 pm

    test

    :oops:

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