Worth a long look
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 28, 2011 
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The Yankees won’t really have a Brett Gardner-type situation this spring. Twelve months ago, when Doug wrote his initial defense of Gardner as a everyday player, it was at a time when left field was pretty wide open. Gardner was the favorite, but he was coming off a shaky first full season in the big leagues, and guys like Randy Winn and Marcus Thames were looming as competiiton.
Today, the Yankees everyday lineup is more or less set in stone. Gardner did more than enough to keep his everyday status, Russell Martin was signed specifically to be the everyday catcher and Jorge Posada will transition to a regular designated hitter role. There are a couple of bench job up for grabs — and the rotation has obvious questions — but if everyone stays healthy, this spring will not become a Gardner-type proving ground.
Instead, these are the guys who are similar to Gardner — big league experience, arguable favorites for a job, but not guaranteed anything — who might have to earn a spot.
Francisco Cervelli
Backup catcher
Cervelli has pushed himself this winter. He’s been training with Robinson Cano in the Dominican Republic, working to improve himself at the plate for what he knows is going to be a fight to stay relevant in the Yankees organization. Right now he’s the favorite for a bench job, if only because the Yankees would prefer not to limit the at-bats of either Austin Romine or Jesus Montero. But those two are charging toward the big leagues, and Cervelli could be passed in the not-so-distant future. In fact, Brian Cashman has said Cervelli will have to earn a job this spring. He’ll be the favorite, but he won’t be an automatic.
Greg Golson
Fifth outfielder
Right now, the Yankees know three bench spots will go to Andruw Jones, a backup catcher and a utility infielder. The fourth bench job is wide open, and I guess you’d have to say Golson counts as the incumbent. He made a solid impression last year — and his speed and defense certainly play at the big league level — but he’ll have to show something with the bat. Guys like Colin Curtis, Jordan Parraz, Kevin Russo and Brandon Laird will also be pushing for a spot. Same for whoever misses out on the utility job if the Yankees choose to carry two reserve infielders rather than two reserve outfielders.
Sergio Mitre
Fifth starter/long reliever
One way or another, Mitre will have competition this spring. He seems to be a favorite — just like Gardner was last spring — but he’ll have to earn either the last spot in the rotation or the last spot in the bullpen. Right now, he seems to be a more reliable option than Bartolo Colon, Mark Prior, Romulo Sanchez or any of the Rule 5 picks, but of the pitching staff favorites, he’s most on the bubble. He’ll become much more-so on the bubble if the Yankees add another rotation candidate or catch lighting in a bottle with Bartolo Colon.
Ivan Nova
Fourth/fifth starter
Right now, the Yankees have little choice but to give Nova a spot in the rotation. Best-case scenario, though, the Yankees will find a proven starter — if he’s currently hanging out in the Texas, all the better — who will push Nova into a proving ground. He’ll almost certainly go into spring training as a favorite, but he’ll have to show something, including an ability to keep getting outs more than one time through a lineup. Given the Yankees minor league pitching depth, Nova might have to keep performing during the season to keep a job.
Eduardo Nunez
Utility infielder
Ramiro Pena is limited, but the Yankees take comfort in knowing he can handle every infield position defensively and provide some speed off the bench. Nunez is a far more dynamic hitter, but he’ll have to earn some trust. Based on last season, when he hit .280 in the big leagues after a strong Triple-A season, my guess is that the Yankees would prefer to carry Nunez and give him semi-regular starts on the left side of the infield. But if he slips, the Yankees will go right back to the comfort of Pena.
Erin-
My Company for some reason does not feel that link is appropriate for me to see. I’ll have to check it out later
WCYF,
You do realize that Verducci never talked with Cashman about the book when he was writing it and thus, never got his side of the story and the course of events? So is it fair, to just accept that portion of the story as the gospel truth when the whole story hasn’t been told from different perspectives?
Erica-too bad. It’s really cute!
“So is it fair, to just accept that portion of the story as the gospel truth when the whole story hasn’t been told from different perspectives?”
It has been. Really comes down to whose perspective you want to buy into.
Count me as a fan who wanted Torre out after that utter embarassment in 2004. I wanted Pinella.
My guess at the opening day bench:
Cervelli, Jones, Pena, Parraz
That’s not to say it will be the bench all season long, just when the Yankees come north initially.
I think they’ll want Nunez to get a little more time at the various other positions during the early part of the season before calling him up to replace Pena. Cervelli will be ousted by Montero likely by the All Star break and the fourth spot will be a rotating door between Parraz, Golson and others all season long based on injuries and production.
I also think that Nova will likely get one rotation spot and it will come down to Mitre vs. Colon for the other with the loser taking a spot in the pen. It’s also possible neither of those guys gets a spot on the roster depending on how Prior throws this spring and what the Yankees see from Phelps, Noesi and Warren. Of course there’s also the chance that the Yankees still add someone between now and then.
“It has been. Really comes down to whose perspective you want to buy into.”
Actually, it hasn’t because Cashman hasn’t said anything about how the events of that day went down from his perspective.
Verducci didn’t talk to any Yankee executive about the book except Torre and his coaches.
Crawdaddy January 28th, 2011 at 11:56 am
WCYF, You do realize that Verducci never talked with Cashman about the book when he was writing it and thus, never got his side of the story and the course of events? So is it fair, to just accept that portion of the story as the gospel truth when the whole story hasn’t been told from different perspectives?
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Do you want to post a link with Cashman;s recollection as to what happened on the plane and in that meeting? I don’t believe the events as they were recounted were called inaccurate.
And accordingly, yes, I believe Joe Torre because I think he is honest. And I think Tom Verducci is a good author and journalist.
I have a question: Who cares about Joe Torre? The game passed him by years ago, and people were calling for his head in ’03 when it became clear that bullpen and rotation management were like rocket science to him.
Shame Spencer January 28th, 2011 at 11:59 am
Count me as a fan who wanted Torre out after that utter embarassment in 2004. I wanted Pinella.
*************************
I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt after ’04. The midge game was what did it for me. And I had also grown to hate his treatment of Alex. And then there was that stupid book. lol
The fact of the matter is either of you have any clue what you are talking about in regards to Torre. Meeting him 3 times means absolutely nothing.
I’ve met Jeter 3 times, and talked with him on the phone for over a half hour “about baseball”. I am not qualified to speak about anything he thinks because I’m not delusional.
Turning off “auto correction” in your keyboard settings will alleviate some of the issues you guys are having with the Apple gear.
Then again the rest of us will be missing out on some good joke material. For instance I’m really hoping I get the chance to use “Barstool Colon” somewhere down the road.
“Do you want to post a link with Cashman;s recollection as to what happened on the plane and in that meeting? I don’t believe the events as they were recounted were called inaccurate.
And accordingly, yes, I believe Joe Torre because I think he is honest. And I think Tom Verducci is a good author and journalist.”
WCYF,
Cashman has never spoken about the events publically except to say that Verducci never talked to him about the course of events and that the recollection of them in the book aren’t true from his perspective. My point is that there are two sides to every story and somewhere in the middle you usually get at the truth.
I answered West Coasts “set me straight” post in the other thread.
I’ve got to head to a meeting now.
Someone can feel free to transfer it here if anyone is interested.
Bronx Jeers – Reading what you wrote before you frantically hit send is also a good option.
No situation is black or white. And the Torre situation is no different. Even if you got everyone’s perspective on what transpired leading up to and during that confrontation, still have the picture somewhat distorted.
Anyway, what’s done is done.
****
It will be interesting to see what the Yankees decide regarding Nunez/Pena. I cannot see carrying two UIFs on the bench, especially since neither has any power. Last night on Hot Stove, Jack Curry brought up the fact that Jones is the only bench player with power. He seemed to think Laird could have an inside track because he is the only other player who could provide some pop.
Chip January 28th, 2011 at 12:02 pm
My guess at the opening day bench:
Cervelli, Jones, Pena, Parraz
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I also think the Cisco kid will at least open the season as backup catcher. I’m kind of anxious to see if he’s made improvements after he spent the winter with Coach Robbie.
Jayson Stark has his All-Unemployed team.
Here’s mine:
LF – Pods
SS – Orlando Cabrera
1b – Branyan
DH – Vlad
CF – Jim Edmonds
C – Benji Molina
3b – Wily Aybar
RF – Lastings Milledge
2b – Felipe Lopez
Bench: Hank Blalock, David Eckstein, Troy Glaus, Randy Winn
Rotation:
Andy, Garcia, Millwood, Bonderman, Duchscherer
Pen:
C: Juan Cruz
RHP: Aceves, McDougal, Delcarmen
LHP: Mahay, Reyes, Hendrickson
By the way, Cashman stated that Verducci never spoke to him at all about the book when he was writing it.
You talk about being fair to journalists, how about being fair to the people being portrayed in these kinds of books when only one side of the narrative is being presented. Fair is fair.
If Cervelli has improved, he will make for a piece of trade bait later in the year.
Irreverent Discourse January 28th, 2011 at 12:08 pm
The fact of the matter is either of you have any clue what you are talking about in regards to Torre. Meeting him 3 times means absolutely nothing. I’ve met Jeter 3 times, and talked with him on the phone for over a half hour “about baseball”. I am not qualified to speak about anything he thinks because I’m not delusional.
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How typical. I didn’t mention my meeting Torre to substantiate me knowing any more than anyone else. If you read my post, you would know it was a direct response to SJ44 who said I had never met the man.
My opinions on Torre and the circumstances surrounding his leaving are based on the sum of all that I have read, heard and seen. Like anyone else. It’s my opinion, nothing more and nothing less.
Last night on Hot Stove, Jack Curry brought up the fact that Jones is the only bench player with power.
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That was a good hot stove too, Curry brought up the similarities between Pena and Nunez as a reason for Pena to get dumped. I agree 100% with that. Can’t have too samey players fighting for time on the bench.
I like Montero as the backup/starter eventually (I like him from the beginning anyways because if he hits he can backup C and DH, cervelli covers only C), and a defensive outfielder with speed or another power guy.
I’d love Vlad, and he seems like he’d be super cheap atm.
My predictions;
I think Cervelli is going to get traded in a package for a starting pitcher this spring with some prospects.
I think Montero will hit his way onto the roster.
I think Nunez will also make the club. Girardi is going to rest Jeter and Arod a lot more than any of us expect. Nunez will get at bats.
I expect Golson to be the 5th OF because of his speed. The 5th OF will rarely play, if ever, and needs to be a specialist/role player type.
If they don’t go with Golson, they may eschew a 5th OF and keep Pena and Nunez, but Pena probably will be on another team at some point this year. I think he’s going the way of Alberto Gonzalez.
Crawdaddy January 28th, 2011 at 12:11 pm
By the way, Cashman stated that Verducci never spoke to him at all about the book when he was writing it. You talk about being fair to journalists, how about being fair to the people being portrayed in these kinds of books when only one side of the narrative is being presented. Fair is fair.
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Your logic is without merit. It was Joe Torre and Tom Verducci’s book. If Cashman wants to give his recollections on things, he is free to write his own.
But more importantly, again, the events are not in dispute.
Like anyone else. It’s my opinion, nothing more and nothing less.
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Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad.
Great post Chad.
It really lays out the remaining issues.
Thanks.
Cervelli may be competing with Montero although they probably want to bring Jesus
up a little later on.
I don’t agree with just handing Nova a spot.
Would like to see a round-robin type of
competition for the remaining SP spots assuming AP does not return (hope he does).
I favor Nunez over Pena by a wide margin.
I’m anxious to see how Laird does in ST.
WCYF,
I give up then and accept what you want to hear and we’ll do the same.
Don’t understand why a weak bat like Cervelli has to be carried on the bench, when Posada could serve as backup catcher to Russell Martin. On those days, once or twice a week, you could also rotate half day off DH duties to A-Rod, Jeter or any other regular that needs a blow. Waste of a roster space and makes bench that much weaker.
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 12:13 pm
Last night on Hot Stove, Jack Curry brought up the fact that Jones is the only bench player with power.
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That was a good hot stove too, Curry brought up the similarities between Pena and Nunez as a reason for Pena to get dumped. I agree 100% with that. Can’t have too samey players fighting for time on the bench.
I like Montero as the backup/starter eventually (I like him from the beginning anyways because if he hits he can backup C and DH, cervelli covers only C), and a defensive outfielder with speed or another power guy.
I’d love Vlad, and he seems like he’d be super cheap atm.
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Last year Marcus Thames was the only bench player with power when the season opened (Thames, Winn, Cervelli, Pena)
As for Vlad – read about the negotiations between him and the O’s you’ll see super cheap is not his asking price.
jerkface -
The only reason I see Montero not starting out with the club is if they want him to play regularly, really regularly, from day one.
However, the way the Yankees schedule is set up to start the season, unless the weather wreaks havoc, there are not a lot of days off.
The Yankees won’t have built-in days off in April for their regulars.
I think that affects the pitching staff as well – the starters. Normally in April, you don’t look to your 5th starter too much. Again, if the weather cooperates, they are going to need a 5th starter right from April 2.
wolfshadow January 28th, 2011 at 12:16 pm
Don’t understand why a weak bat like Cervelli has to be carried on the bench, when Posada could serve as backup catcher to Russell Martin. On those days, once or twice a week, you could also rotate half day off DH duties to A-Rod, Jeter or any other regular that needs a blow. Waste of a roster space and makes bench that much weaker.
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Because if you only carry Posada and Martin and Martin gets hurt during a game where Posada is DHing then you have to move Posada behind the plate and pitchers have to hit.
Don’t forget that if Montero does not get called up until approximately June 1st, the Yankees gain an entire arbitration free year. Unless I am mistaken about that.
If Cervelli has improved, he just might be on the brink of hitting his first HR in eons…
“You talk about being fair to journalists, how about being fair to the people being portrayed in these kinds of books when only one side of the narrative is being presented. Fair is fair”
Not an unreasonable argument, but at the same time it isn’t as though Cashman is/was devoid of outlets thru which he’d have been more than welcome to dispute any assertions he believed to be false or someow misrepresented.
If I had to choose between Jorge or Vlad as my regular DH I would choose Vladdy because of Jorge’s distaste for DH’ing…but we don’t have that choice because of Jorge’s contract.
I love Jorge and what he’s done here and I wish he could be a backup catcher and once in awhile DH, but I think the team is committed to letting him DH and seeing where he is by June before determining if he has taken to the job.
The only wrinkle is if Andy comes back. If Andy returns, I expect Jorge to be his personal catcher. Andy’s move negates Jorge’s throwing (although does nothing with the passed balls).
If Jorge is going to catch every 5th game, the best use of resources would be to have Jorge back up Martin and either use Montero as DH (if he hits this spring) or consider a guy like Vlad in the mix.
Putting out a lineup with Jeter, Swisher, Cano, Arod, Tex, Vlad, Granderson, Posada, Gardner on days Andy pitched and Jorge caught would be ridiculous. I think the starting pitcher would call in sick.
That said, it’s not going to happen. It’s overkill.
Because if you only carry Posada and Martin and Martin gets hurt during a game where Posada is DHing then you have to move Posada behind the plate and pitchers have to hit.
–
Oh no the pitcher might have to hit for one game
Girardi has regularly exercised this option.
Erin – I agree with you to a certain extent. I was disappointed in pretty much everyone in 2004 and even then, though I thought a change was needed, I didn’t want Torre going out on that note. That being said.. you’re absolutely right about the years that followed, which acted as the final nails in the coffin.
In the past, I had wondered if anyone would ever wear #6 again in a Yankee uniform, but after the book I’d say that’s much more likely.
Last year Marcus Thames was the only bench player with power when the season opened (Thames, Winn, Cervelli, Pena)
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Ok, but last year wasn’t a great bench??? I like two above average hitters on the bench. And two guys who are replacements defensively. The more overlap the better. I know that Vlad wants more money, and it is a pipe dream to get him on the bench, but if I were GM I’d do it. Vladdy might not want to play for the O’s for 2 mil, but maybe he’d play for the Yankees for 3-4 mil.
Spring training will sort it all out.
Andruw Jones is signed and set. It becomes a question of an extra OF or an extra IF and whether Montero is lights out or not for Cervelli to survive.
Eduardo Nunez will have to show a bad spring training not to go north. His better bat and same versatility gives him an edge over Ramiro Pena.
As it stands right now, Nova would be a starter and Mitre the long man out of the bullpen pending a Pettitte return or an arm from outside in a deal.
Difficult to predict the exact 25-man roster to start the season. Every year there’s at least one surprise.
Maybe Brandon Laird, Kevin Russo, and Colin Curtis will have something to say.
Mell – what is there to be gained from a media bickering war? the order of events seems fairly logical to me…
1. Torre manages like crap.
2. Yankee brass lowballs Torre as a way of saying “you’re fired” without actually firing him and detaching/dividing the fanbase.
3. Torre, upset, lashes out with dirty secrets in his book (like a 14 year old girl).
4. Cashman and the Steins maturely (as opposed to what Torre did) do not react publicly. There is nothing to be gained from a media drama-bomb.
5. The Yankees come out smelling like roses on all fronts, and better off for it.
“No situation is black or white”
doreen-
i usually agree with you , but the fallacy of ” the truth is somewhere in the middle” is one of my pet peeves.
not saying you, but i think it’s a lazy way for most people to not look into something enough to get the facts and make a decision on one side or the other.
when a criminal assaults someone, the truth is not somewhere in the middle. you have the good guys and the bad guys.
that said, i understand there are situations in life where both sides are at fault or neither sometimes, but there is no way that the truth is always somewhere in the middle or that no situation is black and white. there are situations where the truth is all on one side.
i will also add that it takes courage to take a stand when most of those around you won’t on an issue.
the bad guys try to turn what they do as not really their fault by appealing to the average person’s belief that the truth is always somewhere in the middle.
as far as torre/cashman goes, i’m not that interested because torre had a long run and no manager stays forever.
The only reason I see Montero not starting out with the club is if they want him to play regularly, really regularly, from day one.
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Yes, I agree, but I think if he dominates Spring they need to bring him up immediately after the super two deadline. Which is in May. It depends on the season, like when it starts, but its usually around mid to late may.
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 12:26 pm
Last year Marcus Thames was the only bench player with power when the season opened (Thames, Winn, Cervelli, Pena)
–
Ok, but last year wasn’t a great bench??? I like two above average hitters on the bench. And two guys who are replacements defensively. The more overlap the better. I know that Vlad wants more money, and it is a pipe dream to get him on the bench, but if I were GM I’d do it. Vladdy might not want to play for the O’s for 2 mil, but maybe he’d play for the Yankees for 3-4 mil.
———————
The year before the Yankee bench opening the season was:
Cody Ransom, Ramiro Pena, Nick Swisher and Jose Molina
2. Yankee brass lowballs Torre as a way of saying “you’re fired” without actually firing him and detaching/dividing the fanbase.
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I disagree with this. They made him an offer to be the highest paid manager in baseball by 3 million dollars with incentives (that all of his contracts had but only now did he feel ‘slighted by’ ) that would have made him the highest paid manager in baseball by up to 6 mil
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 12:24 pm
Because if you only carry Posada and Martin and Martin gets hurt during a game where Posada is DHing then you have to move Posada behind the plate and pitchers have to hit.
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Oh no the pitcher might have to hit for one game
Girardi has regularly exercised this option.
———————–
And the minute that scenario costs the Yankees a game you and others will be on this blog slaying the Yankees for putting themselves in a position where the pitcher would have to hit.
Question: Who will be the first player injured on our team this season?
..this game is so much harder without Nick Johnson on our team.
Jerkface – Very true. I guess i should have prefaced it with a “perceived” or something… oh well, I gave the trolls a dividing point to harp on now. :/
The year before the Yankee bench opening the season was:
Cody Ransom, Ramiro Pena, Nick Swisher and Jose Molina
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Whats your point chip? Those benches suck, the yankee bench almost always sucks. I want it to not suck. And actually Cody Ransom was a good bat going into the season based on his tools and prior performance in 08. And technically he was the starter at third. Melky/Gardner were on the bench and Angel Berroa.
“Oh no the pitcher might have to hit for one game ”
RIP Chein Ming Wang’s career.
“Mell – what is there to be gained from a media bickering war? the order of events seems fairly logical to me”
1) True, but the players played like crap too. Failures of the middle part of the decade were more on the players than the manager.
2) Agree, though I’d put quotation fingers around LOW BALLS too. He was still going to be the game’s highest paid manager.
3) Timing was certainly unfortunate. Don’t doubt much of it, but the timing sucked and was hugely self serving and came off as a little petty. Had he wrote it in 2019 instead of 2009, I’d have enjoyed it more.
4) In this case, yes.
5) We’ll disagree on this, but they did smell better than Torre.
As for media bickering, I suppose I agree with you, but would point out the Yankees have never shied away from it when it’s serves their purpose.
And the minute that scenario costs the Yankees a game you and others will be on this blog slaying the Yankees for putting themselves in a position where the pitcher would have to hit.
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Why would you say that? Don’t say what I would do when you obviously do not understand me. I rarely if ever get so out of whack by Girardi’s lineup/managerial decisions as the whiners that populate this blog.
I think it surely stupid to end up having the pitcher hit in an AL game, but I am also an aggressive risk taker who would optimize my bench for lethality versus the slight chance of the former occurring.
Additionally, some of my favorite at bats have been pitchers
I saw Mariano’s first ever at bat in person, and you can’t deny that his ABs against the Mets and Braves were not electric. I’m all for Mo batting.
And please do not continue on with the ‘what if they go down in the first inning’. Every inning that passes further removes the necessity of the pitcher hitting and the only way it becomes a detriment or absolute is a compounding amount of completely improbable injuries.
And having Vlad on the bench or whatever means you have good pinch hitters to hit for the pitcher anyways!
Sorry ID:
Meant to clarify that I was responding to your 5 points.
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 12:32 pm
I disagree with this. They made him an offer to be the highest paid manager in baseball by 3 million dollars with incentives (that all of his contracts had but only now did he feel ‘slighted by’ ) that would have made him the highest paid manager in baseball by up to 6 mil
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They offered him a one year deal with a huge pay cut.
Interesting post on Gardner. Agree that he has proven valuable in LF. However, it is a colossal leap to categorize him as one of the top players in the game, especially not with a .379 SLG.
Further, you cannot take a player’s defensive metric at one position, LF, a normally weak fielding and high SLG position, and conflate it with other OF positions. Add that Gardner is only able to get away with such a weak SLG, because of Granderson’s pop in CF. Also keep in mind, Gardner’s UZR would have much more competition in CF, where players are much better defenders.
Also, beware of small sample sizes, you cannot just say if Gardner had produced in the rest of the season what he had in the first 3 months. He didn’t.
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 12:34 pm
The year before the Yankee bench opening the season was:
Cody Ransom, Ramiro Pena, Nick Swisher and Jose Molina
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Whats your point chip? Those benches suck, the yankee bench almost always sucks. I want it to not suck. And actually Cody Ransom was a good bat going into the season based on his tools and prior performance in 08. And technically he was the starter at third. Melky/Gardner were on the bench and Angel Berroa.
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My point is that the Yankees will tweak their bench during the season as they always do. If they wanted a guy as immoble as Vlad on it – they would have kept Marcus Thames around.
They aren’t going to sign a guy for that kind of money to get somewhere between 50 and 150 at bats.
Chip January 28th, 2011 at 12:40 pm
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 12:34 pm
The year before the Yankee bench opening the season was:
Cody Ransom, Ramiro Pena, Nick Swisher and Jose Molina
–
Whats your point chip? Those benches suck, the yankee bench almost always sucks. I want it to not suck. And actually Cody Ransom was a good bat going into the season based on his tools and prior performance in 08. And technically he was the starter at third. Melky/Gardner were on the bench and Angel Berroa.
——————-
My other point is that when you have a lineup like the Yankees do there isn’t a need for them to carry more than one power bat on the bench since you’re very seldom going to see Girardi pinch hit for anyone.
It’s more important to have guys who can run and play multiple positions – Vlad does neither.
in the grand scheme of baseball, any individual statistic (i.e. SLG) is irrelevant, so long as other parts of your game produce equal value.
“Also, beware of small sample sizes, you cannot just say if Gardner had produced in the rest of the season what he had in the first 3 months. He didn’t”
I believe the point there is that he was already more valuable than most of the lineup and he could have been better had he not been injured.
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 12:38 pm
And the minute that scenario costs the Yankees a game you and others will be on this blog slaying the Yankees for putting themselves in a position where the pitcher would have to hit.
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Why would you say that? Don’t say what I would do when you obviously do not understand me. I rarely if ever get so out of whack by Girardi’s lineup/managerial decisions as the whiners that populate this blog.
I think it surely stupid to end up having the pitcher hit in an AL game, but I am also an aggressive risk taker who would optimize my bench for lethality versus the slight chance of the former occurring.
Additionally, some of my favorite at bats have been pitchers I saw Mariano’s first ever at bat in person, and you can’t deny that his ABs against the Mets and Braves were not electric. I’m all for Mo batting.
And please do not continue on with the ‘what if they go down in the first inning’. Every inning that passes further removes the necessity of the pitcher hitting and the only way it becomes a detriment or absolute is a compounding amount of completely improbable injuries.
And having Vlad on the bench or whatever means you have good pinch hitters to hit for the pitcher anyways!
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It’s not even worth arguing over – the Yankees are going to carry 3 catchers – the only question is which catcher that will be.
Mell – It’s a lot easier to stop media wars before they start without public declarations from ownership
Chip – I still vote for my scenario I stated months ago.
Martin 1, Cervelli 2, Posada 0(obviously emergency 3rd catcher in case of 2 injuries)
My other point is that when you have a lineup like the Yankees do there isn’t a need for them to carry more than one power bat on the bench since you’re very seldom going to see Girardi pinch hit for anyone.
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I want injury insurance, so that when the guys on the bench inevitably get more ABs than anticipated they are actually good. Vlad is way better than Thames anyways.
And I really disagree about ‘running and playing multiple positions’, at some point you become oversaturated with guys who can only run or play multiple positions. At some point they need to provide actual value. Put it this way: It is more expensive and harder to do to get vlad mid-season to be on your bench (we did give up legit prospect for Berkman) than it is to bring up a guy who can run or play multiple positions in the case of injury.
I’ll gladly punt 1 game where we don’t have the OPTIMAL DEFENSIVE SUBSTITUTE for all the others where we have an all-star bat.
Not sure how many of you are following it, but really interesting news over the last couple of hours coming out about our crosstown rivals.
The Wilpons are looking to sell a minority stake in the Mets. Rumors are swirling that the damage done by Madoff is a lot worse than what they were willing to let on and the Mets are now desperately searching for financial backing.
It’s not even worth arguing over – the Yankees are going to carry 3 catchers
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Theres no way cervelli and montero are on the same bench, I disagree.
jerkface – Don’t forget to add to that… speed+defense guys generally only pay off over longer timescales. Power guys can have a larger single at-bat impact, which is escalated dramatically when they are only getting 1 at-bat per game.
I soured on Torre after the 2005 season when his poor bullpen management showed it’s ugly self for the rest of his Yankee years and his clear dislike for A-Rod.
2004 carried some excuse with injuries but Torre should never have seen the 2006-07 seasons as the manager.
In a way it’s like when Ranger management posed the question about Mark Messier. ” How many more years are we going to need to pay him for the Stanley Cup when Messier’s agent was looking for contract extensions.
After 2000, Torre went 7 years without a championship and was appalled at not getting another 2-year contract for more money.
Further, you cannot take a player’s defensive metric at one position, LF, a normally weak fielding and high SLG position, and conflate it with other OF positions. Add that Gardner is only able to get away with such a weak SLG, because of Granderson’s pop in CF. Also keep in mind, Gardner’s UZR would have much more competition in CF, where players are much better defenders.
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He’d have more competition but he’d still come out ahead. You keep in mind that the Yankees would be better overall if Granderson were in left because Gardner is a better centerfielder.
Irreverent Discourse January 28th, 2011 at 12:44 pm
Chip – I still vote for my scenario I stated months ago.
Martin 1, Cervelli 2, Posada 0(obviously emergency 3rd catcher in case of 2 injuries)
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I think that’s the most likely opening day scenario.
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 12:45 pm
It’s not even worth arguing over – the Yankees are going to carry 3 catchers
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Theres no way cervelli and montero are on the same bench, I disagree.
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WHAT???
3 Catchers = Posada, Martin, Cervelli OR Montero.
randy l -
In this particular case, one would be hard-pressed to get the actual truth of the matter. One side insists they wanted the other side back. My mind says, the truth is closer to their being okay with him coming back, but if he didn’t they would be okay with that, too. You don’t offer a contract you don’t want accepted at all. (Even if you suspect the other party will turn down your offer, there is always a chance, however small, that that person will not do what you think he will.)
I amend my statement to most situations are not black or white.
G.Love made some – what I think – are pretty good guesses, see above at about 12:15.
The only one I’d quibble with is that Cervelli being packaged in a deal for a starter. I think that, until Montero shows he can catch at a ML level, they will hold onto Cervelli as insurance for the position. Even if Russell Martin plays well, they still need an experienced backup. Jorge Posada doesn’t count as a catcher anymore, save an emergency situation.
Once the Yanks feel Montero, and/or Romine can handle the position at the ML level, I think one of Cervelli or Romine will be packaged. Though, I could see Romine being dealt early on, if Girardi decides he’s comfortable with Cervelli’s progress behind the plate.
3 Catchers = Posada, Martin, Cervelli OR Montero.
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Yea my point exactly.
Cervelli/Montero, Jones, Nunez, BAT
Cashman no longer back page news.
Mets looking to sell a “minority share” of the organization leading to speculation they have been les than forthright about their finances.
I was never, ever arguing to carry no catcher on the bench.
We may want to take this moment to appreciate just how lucky we are not to be Mets fans.
News from Queens is not very good today.
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 12:52 pm
I was never, ever arguing to carry no catcher on the bench
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That’s not how some of your earlier posts read.
Still don’t think the Yankees would add another bat to the bench – a Golson type of PR/defensive OF is more likely.
I was listening to Michael Kay the other day and he was talking crazy smack about the Mets as per usual. He really let them have it for reasons I totally disagreed with. He goes on this wonderous rant about how the front office has done nothing (because their options are so great, right?) and decides to open up the phones for comment.
All the people (that I heard anyway) called in asking questions about the Yankees.
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 12:48 pm
Further, you cannot take a player’s defensive metric at one position, LF, a normally weak fielding and high SLG position, and conflate it with other OF positions. Add that Gardner is only able to get away with such a weak SLG, because of Granderson’s pop in CF. Also keep in mind, Gardner’s UZR would have much more competition in CF, where players are much better defenders.
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He’d have more competition but he’d still come out ahead. You keep in mind that the Yankees would be better overall if Granderson were in left because Gardner is a better centerfielder.
____________
Actually, Gardner is a better LFer than CFer, but he has the ability to cover that great LF, which works both ways. His UZR inflates b/c of that vast left field, but he also is worthy of covering it. CF though is a more difficult task because Gardner, as strong as he is, has more difficulty covering the ball going toward the wall, and more trouble picking it up off the bat when in CF. He often missteps and then has to compensate. Right now, Granderson is a better CFer than Gardner. As for CF generally, there are many very good CF’s with great range.
Mitre had a good Spring last season. Numbers-wise I believe he won the competition. Girardi and Cash obviously like him and he wasn’t bad at all last season in his limited role. Then again he’s never had any sustained success at this level.
Nova pitched with a lot of bravado last season but really never made it through the 3rd time against a lineup. I really don’t see how he becomes the # 4 especially with a total of 40 MLB innings.
If they’re both in the rotation ? I’m just not too sure they could count on the number of things that would have to go right to overcome that.
Still don’t think the Yankees would add another bat to the bench – a Golson type of PR/defensive OF is more likely.
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I agree its NOT LIKELY, but that doesn’t mean its the best choice or more useful to the yankees overall, which is all I’m arguing as a fan of the yankees and pretend GM. Thats all we’re doing, right? I want the Yankees to do what I would do, but it doesn’t line up. And sometimes I have to argue against what you present because its interesting or fun, which may make it seem like I was for something I wasn’t(in the case of having the pitcher hit) so I just wanted to clear that up.
Even with posada they are going to have a backup catcher because they don’t have a DH like Matsui or Damon, so Posada obviously takes that spot.
“The Wilpons are looking to sell a minority stake in the Mets. Rumors are swirling that the damage done by Madoff is a lot worse than what they were willing to let on and the Mets are now desperately searching for financial backing”
Can’t imagine too many will be interested in investing big money while allowing the Wilpons to continue being the decision makers.
Actually, Gardner is a better LFer than CFer, but he has the ability to cover that great LF, which works both ways. His UZR inflates b/c of that vast left field, but he also is worthy of covering it. CF though is a more difficult task because Gardner, as strong as he is, has more difficulty covering the ball going toward the wall, and more trouble picking it up off the bat when in CF. He often missteps and then has to compensate. Right now, Granderson is a better CFer than Gardner. As for CF generally, there are many very good CF’s with great range.
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Not to curse, but no sht gardner is a better LFer than a CFer, any gold glove Cfer is going to be a better LFer what the heck kind of statement is that? And no, Granderson is not a better centerfielder than Brett.
Brett was better than Granderson by +/-, UZR, whatever you wanna use in his time in centerfield.
Joe Torre deserved a pay cut, one could argue.
After beating up on the Red Sox in 2003, his team was weary and flat and lost to the Marlins in the WS.
After taking 3 straight from the Red Sox in 2004, the last of those games being a trouncing that was an embarrassment to Red Sox nation, what the heck happened to his team? And his choice of pitchers wasn’t very good.
2005 I barely recall for no reason. Was that the year the White Sox went all the way? I don’t even remember who the Yankees faced in the playoffs. But the bottom line is, they didn’t advance.
2006. Couldn’t get past the first round.
2007. Midges, anyone? But in any event didn’t get out of the first round.
Now, it’s true that even getting to the playoffs in every year he managed is quite an accomplishment. And some of those teams had to really fight to get there.
But the bottom line is he wasn’t delivering as expected. No one would have expected the Yankees to win the WS all of those years – that’s unreasonable. But the 2006 and 2007 teams should have made it to the ALCS. They were clear favorites and had played strong against the teams they played during the season.
And with that pay cut, he was still the highest paid manager in baseball.
I believe if the Yankees didn’t want him back, they should have been forthright about it. But I think the Yankees were truly undecided. They could take it or leave it, and offered him a contract that reflected that ambivalence. But the onus was on Torre – he could have accepted that contract.
I disagree that the Yankees came out smelling like a rose. I believe Torre had most of the “sympathy,” if you will, until the book.
I still think Novas issue was that he was really up there in innings when he was put in the NY rotation. I think he got fatigued, I think he will do fine and if he doesn’t I’m sure there will be someone in AAA that can come up and give it a try.
As I argued with bodhisvatta, it doesn’t matter if Gardner missteps (granderson makes plenty of bad reads which is why everyone was skeptical of the trade and the yankees playing him in center) as long as he gets to balls, which he does. More than every centerfielder in baseball.
I get the equal value point RE: individual stats, but left field SLG needs to be compensated for elsewhere. Therefore, you can exchange Granderson’s less traditional CF SLG for Gardner’s less traditional LF lack of SLG, which of course he “compensates” for with OBP.
Mell – I agree with that (and I agreed when Sherman, Klapash and others tweeted it)
The Mets may have to cave and either kick over a majority or sell off parts of SNY and if things are really bad – there could be a firesale in Queens.
Argh my response to you chip was a mess, I meant I agree its MORE LIKELY, and I want the yankees to do what I would do and sometimes it doesn’t line up.
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 1:01 pm
Argh my response to you chip was a mess, I meant I agree its MORE LIKELY, and I want the yankees to do what I would do and sometimes it doesn’t line up.
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I know the feeling – I want them to trade for Brett Myers today. It’s not likely but it doesn’t stop me from wanting it to happen.
I think the Mets are looking for investors because this upcoming season has the potential of being a huge loss financially if they don’t get out of the gate with a good start.
Mets fans are hardly excited about this team. If people don’t want to spend their rapidly reducing discretionary dollars on the Mets, they will be giving tickets away just in the hopes of getting you in the park to buy concessions to make some money.
That said, the future looks better for them because they are lopping a ton of payroll off the books after this season. If they get an infusion of cash, they could be serious players in free agency next year.
As much as we get annoyed at Cashman for saying what’s on his mind lately, imagine being a Mets fan where the owners have been lying to you how Madoff hurt their finances. They’ve been lying to their fans since speculation started.
If I was a Met fan I’d spend nothing on the team and force the Wilpons to sell or bring in well heeled partners that will diminish the Wilpons hold on the club.
“Argh my response to you chip was a mess”
Have yourself a BLT……with extra B.
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 1:00 pm
As I argued with bodhisvatta, it doesn’t matter if Gardner missteps (granderson makes plenty of bad reads which is why everyone was skeptical of the trade and the yankees playing him in center) as long as he gets to balls, which he does. More than every centerfielder in baseball.
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He doesn’t always compensate in CF is the problem. Sometimes he doesn’t get to balls. I see all his games. He is good, but erratic. Who is bodhisvatta? Your sabermetric spiritual advisor?
Mell –
by the way I didn’t mean to suggest you were stealing tweets – just that it is the prevailing wisdom that not too many people are going to line up to hand over money to the Wilpons.
Chip:
No worries.
He doesn’t always compensate in CF is the problem. Sometimes he doesn’t get to balls. I see all his games. He is good, but erratic. Who is bodhisvatta? Your sabermetric spiritual advisor?
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Sometimes he doesn’t get to balls, yea, but he gets to more than any other defender in center except maybe Guitierrez. And bodhisvatta was a gardner-hater who thought melky was the second coming.
Diss Gardner’s reads, jumps, whatever all you want, his stats in center kicked ass.
I know the feeling – I want them to trade for Brett Myers today. It’s not likely but it doesn’t stop me from wanting it to happen.
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If Cashman could trade for Myers or Wandy I think he would have. Astros ownership and GM is stupid. Extending guys when they can’t contend.
G. Love January 28th, 2011 at 1:03 pm
I think the Mets are looking for investors because this upcoming season has the potential of being a huge loss financially if they don’t get out of the gate with a good start.
Mets fans are hardly excited about this team. If people don’t want to spend their rapidly reducing discretionary dollars on the Mets, they will be giving tickets away just in the hopes of getting you in the park to buy concessions to make some money.
That said, the future looks better for them because they are lopping a ton of payroll off the books after this season. If they get an infusion of cash, they could be serious players in free agency next year.
As much as we get annoyed at Cashman for saying what’s on his mind lately, imagine being a Mets fan where the owners have been lying to you how Madoff hurt their finances. They’ve been lying to their fans since speculation started.
If I was a Met fan I’d spend nothing on the team and force the Wilpons to sell or bring in well heeled partners that will diminish the Wilpons hold on the club.
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According to what the Mets have told Francesa to say (and feel free to take as much or as little of this as true)
Mets are investigating this because they’re not sure how much the lawsuit filed against Sterling on behalf of the trustees who want money back that Madoff made them will actually cost.
The team is not for sale, no majority sale is or will be considered.
The question again though is who is going to be willing to cough up all that money and have no say in operations.
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 1:07 pm
He doesn’t always compensate in CF is the problem. Sometimes he doesn’t get to balls. I see all his games. He is good, but erratic. Who is bodhisvatta? Your sabermetric spiritual advisor?
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Sometimes he doesn’t get to balls, yea, but he gets to more than any other defender in center except maybe Guitierrez. And bodhisvatta was a gardner-hater who thought melky was the second coming.
Diss Gardner’s reads, jumps, whatever all you want, his stats in center kicked ass.
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“Diss?” How personally you are taking this!
It is not a matter of “dissing.” It is a matter of seeing games and seeing how Gardner reacts to balls off the bat, and where he positions himself as the ball is launched. Defensive metrics are useful combined with viewing but on their own, they are pretty limited. I have seen Gardner make some spectacular catches in center, but I have seen him not get to quite a few balls. That doesn’t mean he isn’t a very good fielder. Just not the best choice for center field, and certainly not the best in the league. The only reason I mention it is because the constant rhetoric about his CF defense is just not reflected in his fielding. If you said he was very good, that would be accurate, but to elevate him to the best in the game is hyperbolic. However, as Gardner is not playing center right now, it is a non-issue. He is a very good left fielder.
“The question again though is who is going to be willing to cough up all that money and have no say in operations.”
As a couple of noted on Twitter, the last guy to go out seeking minority partners was Tom Hicks, who was looking for investors for both the Rangers and Liverpool. How’d that work for him?
Something interesting I just found out from the Cashman breakfast the other day that didn’t get “reported”
Cash said, you wouldn’t believe how hard I tried for Felix Hernandez.
* couple of WRITERS noted on Twitter….
Not to curse, but no sht gardner is a better LFer than a CFer, any gold glove Cfer is going to be a better LFer what the heck kind of statement is that? And no, Granderson is not a better centerfielder than Brett.
Brett was better than Granderson by +/-, UZR, whatever you wanna use in his time in centerfield.
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Jerkface, come on, you know that UZR should be considered in a larger sample size than Brett’s time in CF. Granderson is definitely a better CFer. However, maybe Brett would improve if he played there more. But you seem to think he is already the best in the game, and I do not. Therefore, we should move on to something else.
I agree Nunez should play over Pena. More upside, better bat, can be a little over-aggressive defensively and overthrow the ball, but definitely has the range/arm to play there over Pena.
The only reason I mention it is because the constant rhetoric about his CF defense is just not reflected in his fielding.
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In your estimation. In the estimation of UZR, total zone, dewan +/- and the fielding bible, my eye sight, and that of many others, he is a great outfielder. Consensus is he owns. Your opinion is that you’ve seen him ‘miss some balls’ and thus you say Granderson is better or whatever. I’ve seen Granderson miss balls Gardner gets to at a dead stop.
And I used the term diss simply as a word to mean you’re panning his ability. Its not personal.
Granderson is definitely a better CFer
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Prove it. He has a worse arm, worse range, gets just as bad jumps and reads. What the heck?
LGY January 28th, 2011 at 1:18 pm
Something interesting I just found out from the Cashman breakfast the other day that didn’t get “reported”
Cash said, you wouldn’t believe how hard I tried for Felix Hernandez.
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I saw that too. Interesting. Do we know what we offered? No doubt Montero, one of Killer B’s, not Nunez again, who else?
Yankeefeminista, were you watching Granderson’s horrendous fielding in 08 and 09 down the stretch? It was actually a pretty big deal that people thought he was losing it in centerfield…
“Cash said, you wouldn’t believe how hard I tried for Felix Hernandez.”
Not surprising. I’m sure Jack Z was looking for a Hershel Walker package. 4-5 of the best prospects. Maybe Hughes.
They questioned his eye sight, et al, it was part of the story of the Yankees trade for him
when a criminal assaults someone, the truth is not somewhere in the middle. you have the good guys and the bad guys.
******
Randy
What if you pop off and I have to put you in line? Who is the bad guy then?
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 1:22 pm
Granderson is definitely a better CFer
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Prove it. He has a worse arm, worse range, gets just as bad jumps and reads. What the heck?
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Ok, you want to belabor this. Prove Brett *is,* and don’t give me small sample size, defective UZR metrics and even they have Curtis as a 5.3/6.6 from 2010, first year playing in Yankee Stadium.
Go back and look at tapes. Then go to the Stadium and *watch every single game* Granderson plays, and then tell me Brett Gardner is better.
The problem here is you rely on what the creator’s themselves call flawed stats. I use them to a certain extent, but to argue based on defensive metrics is doing yourself a disservice. Again, I have no desire to belabor discussing this, BUT if you and others are going to make blanket statements based on flawed metrics and expect me to keep silent, I will not. It is one thing to say Gardner is a very good fielder, it is another to make unequivocal proclamations while everyone either worships a flawed stat or doesn’t comment. BG = plus plus defender, but to call him the best CF in baseball is just incorrect.
when a criminal assaults someone, the truth is not somewhere in the middle. you have the good guys and the bad guys.
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Is he a criminal before he assaults someone or after? Is he only a criminal because the jury believed one side of the story over the other? What are the facts?
Sometimes the truth is somewhere inbetween
“I amend my statement to most situations are not black or white.”
Jerkface:
Please note I’m not being a wiseass as I ask this, but why do you think the Yankees go with Granderson in CF when the overwhelming evidence available to us would suggest Gardner should be?
The problem here is you rely on what the creator’s themselves call flawed stats. I use them to a certain extent, but to argue based on defensive metrics is doing yourself a disservice. Again, I have no desire to belabor discussing this, BUT if you and others are going to make blanket statements based on flawed metrics and expect me to keep silent, I will not. It is one thing to say Gardner is a very good fielder, it is another to make unequivocal proclamations while everyone either worships a flawed stat or doesn’t comment. BG = plus plus defender, but to call him the best CF in baseball is just incorrect.
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No its only POSSIBLY incorrect. you cannot discern otherwise if he is the best or not, because you yourself do not watch every centerfielder in baseball and there is no way to watch brett gardner and granderson play centerfield at the same time.
I will tell you this, I watch 300 games of baseball a year for the past 6 years since I got MLB.TV. In my estimation Gardner is better than Granderson in center and both are good. Your opinion isn’t backed by the fans, scouts, or any of the defensive systems so how much merit does it have?
Here is my problem with your argument: You don’t want to use advanced stats but you do want me to take your opinion as fact? You come in here saying GRANDERSON IS BETTER PERIOD. Well, la dee da.
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 1:26 pm
Yankeefeminista, were you watching Granderson’s horrendous fielding in 08 and 09 down the stretch? It was actually a pretty big deal that people thought he was losing it in centerfield…
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He has played a better CF in Yankee Stadium than Brett Gardner has. I understand that CG’s metrics in 08-09 were not good. However, that has nothing to do with 2010 in Yankee Stadium. Do I need to bring up the JD Drew argument of yore?
Ok, I am done with this discussion. It always starts dominating the thread b/c you so ferociously defend everything BG. He is a very talented fielder. Not the best CF in baseball. Not even playing there, if you haven’t noticed.
# Mell January 28th, 2011 at 1:26 pm
“Cash said, you wouldn’t believe how hard I tried for Felix Hernandez.”
Not surprising. I’m sure Jack Z was looking for a Hershel Walker package. 4-5 of the best prospects. Maybe Hughes.
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Yes definitely a Hershel Walker deal.
They probably started of with Hughes which isn’t out of the question for King Felix.
This “you can estimate his fielding better by viewing” nonsense really has to stop. Almost every advanced defensive metric is tallied by watching the game. You are not a pro scout, your eyes do not tell a better story.
Please note I’m not being a wiseass as I ask this, but why do you think the Yankees go with Granderson in CF when the overwhelming evidence available to us would suggest Gardner should be?
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Because the Yankees cater to veterans. They keep veterans comfortable and move around younger players. I think they prefer giving veterans rhythm and stability. If you use Granderson in LF, then you have to move him to CF any time Gardner does not play. The idea is that Granderson is the starter, Gardner is the guy trying to establish himself as a starter. In 2010 it was entirely possible that Gardner could have sucked and would have to be replaced. It is easier to replace only LF, rather than replace LF and move Granderson to CF.
There is a slight difference between fielding both positions, and I am not willing to discount the fact that Yankee management wasn’t keen on having Granderson read the ball off the bat in LF rather than CF in yankee stadium when he’d not played LF since his first years in pro ball.
If you look at Granderson’s defensive evaluations 08 and 09 vs Gardners, it made no sense to put Granderson in Center from a pure defensive stand point, but if you look at it as: Now we have one of the best centerfielders overall in baseball, we can always upgrade leftfield (easier to get players for) and have Gardner as the 4th OFer.
“They probably started of with Hughes which isn’t out of the question for King Felix”
Wouldn’t be for me either, but you start hearing Hughes, Montero, and Banuelos, plus a couple of B-list guys then you have to walk away if you’re Cashman, IMO.
It always starts dominating the thread b/c you so ferociously defend everything BG.
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I ferociously defend the truth. Not just Brett Gardner
If Hughes was asked for you can’t really do that deal, can you? Because then you have to replace Hughes and no one on the market matches Hughes.
But it is nice to know that Cash was trying strongly to find a way to get Hernandez.
No its only POSSIBLY incorrect. you cannot discern otherwise if he is the best or not, because you yourself do not watch every centerfielder in baseball and there is no way to watch brett gardner and granderson play centerfield at the same time.
I will tell you this, I watch 300 games of baseball a year for the past 6 years since I got MLB.TV. In my estimation Gardner is better than Granderson in center and both are good. Your opinion isn’t backed by the fans, scouts, or any of the defensive systems so how much merit does it have?
Here is my problem with your argument: You don’t want to use advanced stats but you do want me to take your opinion as fact? You come in here saying GRANDERSON IS BETTER PERIOD. Well, la dee da.
__________
Your argument is facile. Because you buy into stats that the person who designed them calls flawed, you are right? Further, b/c you watch games on mlb tv, not even at given Stadiums seeing given players react to a ball off a bat or see them make a play, you are right? You do realize, your argument is based on stats that are not
No, it is my problem with *your* argument stating that BG is the best CFer in baseball. If he were, the Yankees would be playing him in centerfield.
I challenge you to come to NY and go to a few games with me. Use the metrics and combine them with some scouting rather than using the party line about flawed seeing. I DO both unlike you, and why have any scouts. Let’s just all put numbers into a computer and draft based on numbers and no qualitative aspects of the game at all.
People, people, people… lets all just take a breath, shall we?
Smile. Spring training is a mere two weeks away
# Mell January 28th, 2011 at 1:39 pm
“They probably started of with Hughes which isn’t out of the question for King Felix”
Wouldn’t be for me either, but you start hearing Hughes, Montero, and Banuelos, plus a couple of B-list guys then you have to walk away if you’re Cashman, IMO.
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If you’re Cashman when you hear those names and then Jack Z continues you ask what dream are you living in lol
I challenge you to come to NY and go to a few games with me.
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I go to Yankee stadium every year and other stadiums, you watching the games in person is not any better. You just literally argued that I don’t watch the games, hilarious.
“If Hughes was asked for you can’t really do that deal, can you? Because then you have to replace Hughes and no one on the market matches Hughes”
Sure you can. Hernandez is vastly superior to Hughes as a pitcher. The team gets much better because of it. Issue would be what else beyond Hughes the M’s would be looking for.
No, it is my problem with *your* argument stating that BG is the best CFer in baseball. If he were, the Yankees would be playing him in centerfield.
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The Yankees don’t operate this way. If they did, A-rod would have been the starting SS in 04.
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 1:41 pm
It always starts dominating the thread b/c you so ferociously defend everything BG.
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I ferociously defend the truth. Not just Brett Gardner
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lol. What is “truth?” Do you think it is qualitative? Good luck with that.
Fact: Gardner is not even playing CF, and the metrics, even if you buy into them are a sample size that doesn’t coalesce with the qualifiers necessary to use them for BG in CF: 3 full years at CF. So, can you please explain to me again what your truth is based upon if the numbers you need to adhere to for CF UZR necessitates 3 years of samples?
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 1:44 pm
I challenge you to come to NY and go to a few games with me.
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I go to Yankee stadium every year and other stadiums, you watching the games in person is not any better. You just literally argued that I don’t watch the games, hilarious.
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I’ll come along too, but only if we can meet under the Paul O’neill banner.
Further, b/c you watch games on mlb tv, not even at given Stadiums seeing given players react to a ball off a bat or see them make a play, you are right? You do realize, your argument is based on stats that are not
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Here is my problem with this argument: I only mentioned how many games I watch, but not how many games I watch in person vs on tv. Secondly, I highly doubt you were attentive to all fielders on every play you ever watched at a live game. Thirdly, on TV they have this thing called replay. On almost every hit, especially ones to the outfield, they show replays, including the ones that show the ball off the bat and the fielders reacting to it.
Hilarious, I don’t combine what I watch with the stats. HILARIOUS.
jerkface – how do you get yourself involved in this nonsense :p
he thinks he knows better because he goes to games, that’s gotta be the funniest thing i’ve ever read on this blog.
that’s also where you end the conversation, you can’t argue with insane people.
I’ll come along too, but only if we can meet under the Paul O’neill banner.
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I won’t hit a girl. Very hard.
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 1:44 pm
I challenge you to come to NY and go to a few games with me.
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I go to Yankee stadium every year and other stadiums, you watching the games in person is not any better. You just literally argued that I don’t watch the games, hilarious.
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lol. No, I didn’t do that at all. I used a combination of factors unlike you with a fatally poor UZR sample size for BG in CF. You are as usual cherry picking for your purposes. Nice try.
Did you ignore me where I also used Dewan +/-, TangoTiger’s fan scouting, Total Zone, etc???
Cherry pick yourself, dear.
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 1:45 pm
No, it is my problem with *your* argument stating that BG is the best CFer in baseball. If he were, the Yankees would be playing him in centerfield.
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The Yankees don’t operate this way. If they did, A-rod would have been the starting SS in 04.
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Cop out. You can do better than that.
The people that don’t understand the stats have no leg to stand on, so they have to make up ridiculous statements like “you only look at the stats!”. How oblivious to life must you be to think that people that have went out of their way to gain more knowledge on a subject than you would lack the observational powers you have developed by sitting on your couch and… not learning anything?
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 1:50 pm
Did you ignore me where I also used Dewan +/-, TangoTiger’s fan scouting, Total Zone, etc???
Cherry pick yourself, dear.
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For what? Brett vs. Granderson in CF? Let’s see it.
“Sometimes the truth is somewhere in between”
jerkface-
totally true.
but the truth is not always in between.
in cases like the shootings in arizona there is no in between.
in our own lives some things happen on a smaller level, but are no less black and white.
with all the spin that is in the world now on everything, almost anyone can take a position and twist it to get large numbers of people believing their version of the truth.
however, if most people take the time to get into a something and really look at the facts they can figure it out.
i just hate the wishy washiness of “the truth is always in the middle” or “it takes two to tango”.
tell that to someone who just got mugged or raped.
*sermon over
Lol Jerkface, Chris Brown you ain’t! And if thats not something to be at least a little proud of I’m not sure what is
randyl – the truth is always “in between” when involving hearsay. the examples you provided have witnesses that eliminate other viewpoints.
Irreverent Discourse January 28th, 2011 at 1:51 pm
The people that don’t understand the stats have no leg to stand on, so they have to make up ridiculous statements like “you only look at the stats!”. How oblivious to life must you be to think that people that have went out of their way to gain more knowledge on a subject than you would lack the observational powers you have developed by sitting on your couch and… not learning anything?
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lol. I use saber stats, but I respect the sample sizes, and I actually question some of them and am not a “true believer.” You are too funny, and unable to pick up irony b/c it isn’t linear. But that is OK. However, what is ridiculous is the desire to skew your own stats by using them wrong to accommodate an agenda. And also to denigrate others who don’t adhere to your limited perspective.
FYI – there’s an article in today’s Wall Street Journal on Larry Rothschild. He seems to preach simplicity, and throwing strikes. Sounds good.
# Mell January 28th, 2011 at 1:45 pm
“If Hughes was asked for you can’t really do that deal, can you? Because then you have to replace Hughes and no one on the market matches Hughes”
Sure you can. Hernandez is vastly superior to Hughes as a pitcher. The team gets much better because of it. Issue would be what else beyond Hughes the M’s would be looking for.
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Exactly Hughes isn’t the issue it’s the names that follow him. Judging who follows him the farm system would take a step back.
http://oneifbylandsports.blogs.....balls.html
Here is a cool article and it even has video links!
I like, but don’t love Gardner; I want to see if he can keep it up the whole year. He’s not a guy I think the Yankees have to keep at all cost.
Jerkface….Do you actually watch baseball or do you just view the game by way of your nintendo computer spreadsheets……For to the point, prior to Curtis Granderson arriving in The Bronx, roughly tell us how many times did you actually see him play ???? For such a smart guy you sure are stubborn once you dig your feet in regardless of correction-ness…..
Hey everyone!
Another great post by Chad.
My take on things:
Cervelli starts the season as backup catcher to Martin. He’s experienced, knows the rotation, and may have improved his hitting.
Pena starts the season as backup utility infielder. Nunez will get some additional seasoning in AAA and be right there if needed.
Golson will be 5th OF. Speed, defense, great arm. Why not.
Nova will be the #5 as Pettitte will return. Mitre will be long man out of the pen. If Pettitte doesn’t return right away, then Mitre may be #4 until he returns, then back to the pen for him.
For those who think Cervelli will get traded – not so fast. Frankly Romine is a better hitter, and may be as good defensively, so he may have more trade value and would be worthless to the Yankees as a backup, but more valuable as a trade piece.
Montero will get his shot later in the season, and is heir apparent to Posada for the DH role in 2012, as Posada takes a contract with the Mets or retires.
Your mistake, Jerkface, is assuming that because you use a subjectively chosen set of numbers that you don’t “twist” them to suit an agenda.
Cop out. You can do better than that.
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Its not a cop out. If you ask me why Gardner is not the starting centerfielder for the New York Yankees I tell you its because of more than just defense. Decisions regarding the roster and how players are played boil down to more than just cold, hard numbers. That doesn’t make the decisions right, and sometimes not even wrong.
randy l. – Interesting philosophical arguments. Disagree completely, but maybe it works in sports better than real life.
Do you think the Yankees kept pitching Vazquez and Burnett because there weren’t alternatives? Or because the prices paid for those players and the contractual obligations meant that getting them right going forward is more important than playing the best choice *right now*?
“Right now, Granderson is a better CFer than Gardner.”
Aside from the “right now”, was that unequivocal or is there any room for equivocation?
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 1:44 pm
I challenge you to come to NY and go to a few games with me.
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I go to Yankee stadium every year and other stadiums, you watching the games in person is not any better. You just literally argued that I don’t watch the games, hilarious.
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lol. Just as hilarious is that you are not very good at picking up on irony. I guess it goes with the territory. Don’t you think I am aware of the flawed seeing argument, the very reason I referenced it. So, that you could go all ballistic. Equally hilarious.
Seattle doesn’t want to trade Felix, so while Cash gave it a good try, it was always going to be fruitless. He’d have to offer up the whole farm plus Phil to get him and frankly, I don’t think that’s worth it. Why ruin your farm system when one pitcher can’t carry a team anyway (ok, 2 with CC). We’d be left with a practically barren farm. Felix never wanted to come to NY anyway, which is why he signed with Seattle, so he probably wouldn’t want to come here now.
You have to trade Phil for Felix – and you don’t ever have a regret about it – but it would be Phil plus way too many other pieces. Seattle would be a good park for Phil actually, but I doubt he’ll be making that his home park anytime soon.
Jerkface….Do you actually watch baseball or do you just view the game by way of your nintendo computer spreadsheets……For to the point, prior to Curtis Granderson arriving in The Bronx, roughly tell us how many times did you actually see him play ???? For such a smart guy you sure are stubborn once you dig your feet in regardless of correction-ness…..
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Pat M, I am always disappointed in comments like your first one. Do you think I flipping love baseball because of my tediously collated excel spreadsheets? Do you think I watch baseball like Neo see’s the matrix? I love baseball, I love to PLAY baseball (funny I know but I pitch amateurly and play second, pick up games not Randy-league), I love reading about baseball, I love watching baseball. I’ve already lined up more than a couple baseball outings for this year despite new budget crunches(bought a house).
I have said I watch 300 games of baseball a year. I watch every yankee game live or otherwise and then any number of west coast games and afternoon games and important games and national games. I watched a lot of the Tigers games when they were a world series team, and I watched a lot of them when they were fighting for the playoffs and ended up in the 1 gamer vs the Twins.
I can say I watched more of Granderson in centerfield than any casual baseball fan could care to watch before he joined the Yankees.
Seems like a needless argument. Have the Yankee lost games because Granderson was in center and Gardner in left? Of course not. What does it matter, they are for all intents and purposes interchangeable defensively.
Granderson is going to have a huge year – and he’s a very good CF.
Just as hilarious is that you are not very good at picking up on irony. I guess it goes with the territory. Don’t you think I am aware of the flawed seeing argument, the very reason I referenced it
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Thats not irony. But it is trolling. So bravo I guess? Though I’m not going ballistic.
Joe, thanks for the heads up………It’s great that Rothschild preaches that, but let’s see if the pitchers can execute it. The WSJ often has good baseball articles…..surprisingly
yankeefeminista – You completely disregard how Gardner’s skills as an outfielder already translate to centerfield. Like he would go over there for a full season (larger sample size) and forget how to catch baseballs… or perform significantly worse than he did in a very large left field (or already has performed in center). The fact of the matter is the is much faster than Granderson… so no matter the difference in reading the ball off the bat the play gets made in the end. The result is basically all that matters in this case.
Gardner has a better arm, so given the same range (range = reaction + closing speed) he is a better centerfielder. Granderson plays centerfield because that’s what he was signed to do, to provide stability. Gardner was too much of a question mark at the time, but you bet your butt that if Gardner performs like last year another season or two then he will be the starting center fielder for a long… long time.
What does it matter, they are for all intents and purposes interchangeable defensively.
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The best things to argue about are those that are win-win for the Yankees.
I do love when an argument ends with the person who got soundly trounced going, ‘Oh I was just saying that you get a rise out of you!’ Its a white flag.
Face, further more I go on record with this, if Brett Gardner doesn’t show signs of improving his game by July, the Yanks will seek an upgrade in leftfield and he’ll go back to being what many still think what he truly is, a 4th outfielder……Maybe the Andruw Jones experiment proves to be better than expected and they move into a platoon system faster than expected
further more I go on record with this, if Brett Gardner doesn’t show signs of improving his game by July, the Yanks will seek an upgrade in leftfield and he’ll go back to being what many still think what he truly is, a 4th outfielder……Maybe the Andruw Jones experiment proves to be better than expected and they move into a platoon system faster than expected
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Bold claim. If Gardner is only as good as 2010 he will be the starter forever. If Granderson doesn’t show improve against lefties he will find himself in the platoon faster than Gardner
The jury is still out on Granderson and Gardner offensively as far as I am concerned.
Gardner had a half a good year. I need to see him perform at a high level consistently over the course of a full season. I am not convinced yet that trading power for speed in a corner outfielder is the right thing to do.
Granderson was awful until the swing doctoring in August. He had a decent month and a half and post-season. Like Gardner, I need to see that level of performance for an entire year.
Face, further more I go on record with this, if Brett Gardner doesn’t show signs of improving his game by July
uh… what? gardner has to get better than being one of the most valuable left fielders and potential leadoff hitters in baseball? Are you nuts?
“I am not convinced yet that trading power for speed in a corner outfielder is the right thing to do”
I think it flies so long as your getting “considerably above average power for the position” at other spots, such as 2nd base and CF.
Looks like I got your attention Face, because it’s so very seldom that you share actual baseball visuals to us, it’s always about wars, zones and fangraphs and blah blah blah…..I know you know baseball I just wish you could find a balance and not resort to sometimes the pseudo virtual aspects of the game….I’ve learned a great deal over time from CB as well as yourself in regards to seeing the beyond the eyes, but the bottom line in the end it’s the eys who have it……
uh… what? gardner has to get better than being one of the most valuable left fielders and potential leadoff hitters in baseball? Are you nuts?
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You have to understand that these people come from an irrational base point, where 50 steals at an 84% success rate is subpar and a .380 on base percentage is on the brink of collapse once ‘pitchers learn to throw him strikes’ (as if most pitchers can control their own repertoire to that degree).
You know, the same people that think A-rod’s 57 HRs aren’t clutch and blah blah blah.
WCYF – Are you not convinced that injury effects performance?
I am not convinced yet that trading power for speed in a corner outfielder is the right thing to do.
This would make sense if the team wasn’t sitting on a 30+HR second basemen, which is where you normally have the speed guy that they employ in left field. Mantras about where your power guys “should be” are completely meaningless.
Randy Levine hittin’ Chuck Greenberg with both barrels today.
Story should be hittin’ on si.com sometime today.
Today must be, “freeing your mind day” in the Yankee front office.
but the bottom line in the end it’s the eys who have it……
Doesn’t that line go “in the end the truth will have it”.
Eyes are easily deceived.
I don’t know if that’s good or bad, lol. Greenberg’s comments about Lee didn’t bother me in the slightest, so I don’t know why Levine has to react – I mean, either way, Lee didn’t want to come here.
Discourse……Not to a trained eye….
i hope Randy Levine’s quote is “Professionals don’t beg”.
Irreverent Discourse January 28th, 2011 at 2:12 pm
WCYF – Are you not convinced that injury effects performance? I am not convinced yet that trading power for speed in a corner outfielder is the right thing to do. This would make sense if the team wasn’t sitting on a 30+HR second basemen, which is where you normally have the speed guy that they employ in left field. Mantras about where your power guys “should be” are completely meaningless.
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Of course injury effects performance and staying healthy and performing is a big part of how one evaluates a ball player. Nick Johnson was a really talented guy wasn’t he?
As to the “power hitting corner outfielder”, I am just reiterating what the preference is of the Yankees General Manager.
Re Ivan Nova: What do you call a pitcher who is lights out once around the lineup. An excellent choice for short or long relief.
Pat M – I don’t care how trained you think your or anyone elses’ eye is. Observation coupled with statistical analysis will always trump you. In any situation in life. More data > less data.
By only observing, you are only accepting a less than complete analysis of the situation. There is literally no argument against this.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....?eref=sihp
Randy Levine with some choice words for Chuck Greenberg, owner of the Texas Rangers. Greenberg is a real numbnuts.
because it’s so very seldom that you share actual baseball visuals to us
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Most of what I see in a baseball game has little merit on a players actual output on the field. A lot of information out there is simply a collection of events. Theres little point in my saying I see Gardner as a good basestealer or a patient hitter when everyone is just going to rebut with their own silly opinions based on what they see, which is often at odds with reality.
Opinions are just that, and they do not at any point trump facts.
And of course in these arguments all of my visual comments are ignored. I deal with stats a lot because they are simply often the best means of conveying an argument, but I also like to talk about Cano’s swing, A-rod’s swing, how badass hughes’ fastball looks, etc.
Betsy pretty much spouts her opinion on what she see’s all the time and people don’t take kindly to it, so I don’t see why that should be the preferred form of information dissemination.
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 2:05 pm
I do love when an argument ends with the person who got soundly trounced going, ‘Oh I was just saying that you get a rise out of you!’ Its a white flag.
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No, that isn’t what I said. But never mind.
As for being trounced; that was you, not me. You stated BG is the best CF’er in baseball. You have shown no numbers to support your argument. Your fielding bible numbers etc. are for LF, not CF. You have provided no evidence that BG is a better CF than CG. Please stop applying LF numbers to CF. I called Gardner a plus plus defender. Get your facts right. You always end up reverting to name calling rather than discussing, but that is fine. I don’t take this stuff personally, unlike you and your sidekick, name-calling buddy there. I just think you have an agenda and that you twist numbers to serve your purposes.
What really amuses me is that the same people will go back and say that AVG, ERA and stuff like that is OK to look at… but the complex stats aren’t… where if they were merely observing like they claim these stats would be meaningless terms to them. So they are more apt to accept entry level stats to back up their observational claims because they don’t understand the more complex ones.
1st grade science teachers don’t get to argue with rocket scientists and dispute the realities of things because they “saw them”.
Really unnecessary comments by Levine……
I wonder if we can believe what Jon Heyman just wrote about Greenberg and Levine since it’s common knowledge the source was Scott Boras. I’m learning.
all i saw there was “yankeefeminista retreats.”
Greenberg has proven multiple times that he’s a moron, nice to see Levine calling him out
I have a buddy now? Sweet.
2009 +/- in centerfield
Granderson in 1300 innings +17
Gardner in 600 innings +11
For some reason many Yankee fans have a nasty habit of focusing on every flaw and every single bad play he makes instead of focusing on the things he excels it. It is never enough for Gardner since he came up. His bad plays get illuminated by these fans and all the positive things he does get diminished, overlooked, and not given the proper credit.
It is hard to figure out why. New Yorkers usually embrace players like Gardner. He is homegrown, works his tail off to improve, and plays balls to the wall at all times, often sacrificing his body.
It is just very strange and I don’t understand it:
“If he really wants to impress us then he can get the Rangers off of welfare and show how they can be revenue-sharing payors, rather than recipients for three years in row, without financing from Major League Baseball,” Levine said Friday. “That would really be something.”
What’s wrong with this statement? The Rangers were subsidized team last year and allowed to continue to function even though they were bankrupt. The Rangers GM was practically bragging that their extended negotiations screwed over the Yankees. Randy Levine said “Welcome to baseball, grow up.”
Reverse trolling and doing it poorly is still trolling, or just being a baby, WCYF.
jerkface – shhhh at least he’s questioning something heyman said. this is progress.
I have seen, in person, Brett Gardner hit a slam over the manual scoreboard. We’re talking a 400+ ft shot. Gardner is a Home Run hitter.
Reverse trolling and doing it poorly is still trolling, or just being a baby, WCYF.
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Be careful, if you call WCYF a troll he accuses you of being a red sox fan!!
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 2:26 pm
Reverse trolling and doing it poorly is still trolling, or just being a baby, WCYF.
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Funny about that perception thing isn’t it Jerkface. Or is it that you just can’t take the heat?
I have seen, in person, Josh Phelps start a 5 run game winning rally. He is the greatest clutch hitter in the history of baseball. It must be true because I was there and I saw it.
LGY January 28th, 2011 at 2:26 pm
For some reason many Yankee fans have a nasty habit of focusing on every flaw and every single bad play he makes instead of focusing on the things he excels it. It is never enough for Gardner since he came up. His bad plays get illuminated by these fans and all the positive things he does get diminished, overlooked, and not given the proper credit.
It is hard to figure out why. New Yorkers usually embrace players like Gardner. He is homegrown, works his tail off to improve, and plays balls to the wall at all times, often sacrificing his body.
It is just very strange and I don’t understand it:
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Here is the explanation. I agree Gardner is a very good fielder and we are lucky to have him. Why people respond in the negative at all is because there are some who elevate Gardner’s abilities beyond what they are without statistical support. How is Gardner being referred to as the best CF’er in baseball not to be critiqued? Nothing supports that. That is where the discussion gets started. Next, we will find out Gardner has discovered a cure for a fatal disease?
It is ironic that it is the number people who go above and beyond the numbers with Gardner, making him more than he is.
Funny about that perception thing isn’t it Jerkface. Or is it that you just can’t take the heat?
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The heat of you making really inane comments about anything Jon Heyman says because he is correctly rebuked for his equally inane baseball commentary and use as Boras mouth piece? Yes, I am burning up. [img-giant rolleyes barfing more rolleyes]
Well Patrick, if you consider hours of thoughtful posts on baseball trolling, then I guess we all are. I suspect you just don’t like being called on your anti-Heyman garbage.
*numbers* people
No Jerkface, actually I am referring to your being correctly rebuked for your inane over-reliance on mind-numbing stats.
I’m sorry your mind is so pitiful it is numbed by stats
If only we had these things…that told us what happened on the baseball field, and were like… accurate and correct…
Not unnecessary comments at all. I’m not surprised though you would take this position.
Chuck Greenberg has run his mouth since he “bought” the Rangers.
I put “bought” in quotes because he has less of his own money in the deal than anybody in the ownership group.
Yet, ever since he has bought the team, he has taken shots at the Yankees and it’s fan base.
Now, he wants to change the narrative.
The FACT is, he lost his ace this off-season. The “ace” HE told his fan base he would do “everything” to retain.
Yet, by HIS comments to his fans at Fanfest, he seems to take more pride in Lee not going to the Yankees than losing him himself.
It was a dumb statement worthy of a response from the Yankees.
Especially since there is no evidence his meeting in Arkansas with Lee had ANY bearing on Lee’s final choice of team.
Levine is right. Keep your team out of bankruptcy court and off baseball’s welfare rolls for three years, THEN tell everybody how smart you are.
Until then, it’s probably wise to STFU.
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 2:34 pm
I’m sorry your mind is so pitiful it is numbed by stats
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I am sorry that mind is so pitiful that you can’t enjoy and appreciate the greatest game in the world without your incessant statistical babble.
“Here is the explanation. I agree Gardner is a very good fielder and we are lucky to have him. Why people respond in the negative at all is because there are some who elevate Gardner’s abilities beyond what they are without statistical support. How is Gardner being referred to as the best CF’er in baseball not to be critiqued? Nothing supports that. That is where the discussion gets started. Next, we will find out Gardner has discovered a cure for a fatal disease?”
Before last season Brian Cashman said Gardner has the talent to be the best CF in baseball. A year later, he was the best LF in baseball (IMO) while playing a LF that is more like most CF.
In his career, he actually has more innings in CF than LF (1094 vs. 1051). His sample in CF is actually larger than LF. In his time at both positions he has shown exceptional ability to cover ground, very quick catch and release on his throws, and a pretty strong and very accurate arm.
Since Gardner came up, I don’t believe there is an OF in baseball that can match his range.
If I was a pitcher and had to pick one player to play all my defensive innings in CF next year, it would be Brett Gardner and I don’t believe there is anything ridiculous or outrageous about that statement.
Who would you pick?
I am sorry that mind is so pitiful that you can’t enjoy and appreciate the greatest game in the world without your incessant statistical babble.
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???? I believe that is you, since you’re the one who is mind-numbed and blowing up at everyones use of stats.
OK Jerkface. Now go play with your BABIP.
On the 20-80 scale I give your attempt at a reversal a 20
I’d rather get DIPS with your mother.
WCYF – Do you realize how dumb that sounds? What makes you think he’s not enjoying baseball? You can’t compare anything to anything without significant data. You choose to use less accurate (or, more incomplete…) data than he does.
Get over it, but don’t think you’re “better than him” because of your statistical purity.
Baseball has always been a statistical game since its inception, those who embrace it are the purists more than those who fight it.
Do you realize how dumb that sounds?
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Have you read anything this guy has said since he arrived? He obviously doesn’t realize how dumb anything he says sounds, or else he’d have shut up after post 1.
I imagine WCYF spent his whole life telling his teachers they were wrong.
Discourse and Face…..My point about a trained eye was that one who possess such doesn’t need a war or some other endless wealth of stat sheets to tell me or anyone one else ( especially the coaching staff or scouts ) how good how poor or how very good a guy is in the field…….That was my point…….Hey I like Brett Gardner however he’s blessed with incredible speed which bails him out when he makes mistakes….It’s there that I see him not in the same blaze of greatness that some of my LoHuders do……As for his limited offensive spurts, he needs a establish a track record of sorts in order if he and or the club wants to pencil him in as the everyday LF……This is a very important season for him in that regard…….Yes Face he has posted some impressive numbers as a base stealer, however he can be so much better which doesn’t show up on your stat sheets….Same goes for bunting for a hit…….
Who would you pick?
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Strictly defensively. Gutierrez.
Jerkface – I guess I just constantly stand in awe at the absurdities of the world. The people that know the least are always the most sure of their beliefs.
like Brett Gardner however he’s blessed with incredible speed which bails him out when he makes mistakes
Yes Face he has posted some impressive numbers as a base stealer, however he can be so much better which doesn’t show up on your stat sheets….Same goes for bunting for a hit…….
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Pat M, my problem with saying things like this is that you are diminishing what he has done. His speed ‘bails him out’??? Well that means he gets to the balls doesn’t it? It’d be one thing if he lacked the speed and didn’t get bailed out. It’d be one thing if all he had were good reads and lacked the speed to actually use it.
Its like he is getting dinged for something that doesn’t really affect his ability to field balls. If he had amazing jumps he would be the greatest centerfielder in the history of baseball. I think settling for being an elite present day centerfielder is fine.
And as for his stealing, yea he could be even better if he had natural instincts for stealing but he doesn’t, so he’ll have to settle for being one of the best. And even if he didn’t show improvement at stealing bases he wouldn’t lose his job over it because he is already excellent. Same with bunting for a hit. It would only be a problem if not bunting for a hit was devaluing him overall, which as long as he gets on base it doesn’t.
You know what? I think Cano could hit more HRs and hit for a higher average, if he doesn’t start improving by July I think the Yankees might go in a different direction.
See how stupid that sounds?
Jerkface January 28th, 2011 at 2:47 pm
I’d rather get DIPS with your mother.
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Classy.
bardos January 28th, 2011 at 2:16 pm
Re Ivan Nova: What do you call a pitcher who is lights out once around the lineup. An excellent choice for short or long relief.
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A young and inexperience rookie pitcher in a pennant race?
A lot of players lack the natural instincts for stealing. The fact that Gardner is so good so soon can only be a good thing. He doesn’t have a guy like Davey Lopes coaching him. He isn’t Rickey Henderson who could make 150 attempts a year and pass at close to 80%.
Classy.
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Class for a classy lady, I just wanted to make her wOBA
Pat M – I think you are getting closer to the divide. Everything you just stated is supported by Jerkface’s stat analysis. The stats are there to support and amend observation, not to supplant it. They certainly don’t work on their own. Neither does observation. The advanced metrics are there for comparison purposes, measurements of what happened. Part of observation is measurement, is it not? Go read up on the scientific method and you will see that observation and measurement are not exclusive.
You can see that a player is good/bad/whatever and evaluate them, but the conclusions you come to from merely observing are flawed. You can’t accurately compare players playing different positions, seeing different pitches, and trying to accomplish different things merely through observation. That is the foundation behind value based metrics.
Your assertion that Gardner could be a better base-stealer is correct… but our assertion is that he is already performing his base-stealing at an elite level… being better is unnecessary (although HIGHLY WELCOMED). The assertion is that Gardner needs to prove himself over a long time. WE DO NOT DISAGREE WITH YOU. All we can possibly claim (and are constantly careful to do so) is that he has performed at a great to elite level already at the plate and in the field. He does not require some monumental shift in performance to become a great player, he only needs to continue doing what he is doing and he will eventually be recognized as a great player.
The stats that we use to break the situation down even further (strikeout rates on ball location and LD rates and such) are merely continuations of your observation. Thing we use to try to guess (as you are just guessing by watching) if a player can continue to perform at his current level. When we tell you that all his base metrics say he should continue to be as awesome as he was last year, people go bonkers and attack us.
It’s really not as sinister and detached from reality as people make it out to be. It is seeking a deeper understanding of things. Just as science was once decreed as heresy, sabermetrics face opposition from the faithful “observers”.
Well worth a re-post from SJ44. Well said, but, if it ain’t negative, WCYF does not think it’s a good post concerning the Yankees.
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SJ44 January 28th, 2011 at 12:06 pm
So, we are playing “set you straight games”?
Ok, I’ll play.
I’ve known Joe Torre since 1989, when I was introduced to him by a client.
Arthur Richman, who was the guy who was pushing Joe to George to manage the Yankees in 1996, after he interviewed with George for the GM’s job, asked me, A’s well A’s several others, to put in a good word with George and several of the minority owners that I knew to help him get the gig.
I didn’t have to do it because by the time Arthur asked me, Joe was getting the job anyway.
I’ve been to every Safe At Home gala in NY since it’s inception. I’ve also contributed to the cause.
I also got Joe to do the forward for a client of mine’s book on Don Mattingly that will be out in March.
His book with Verducci was not called an autobiography for one reason………Joe had already written one.
Verducci’s pitch to his publisher was to chronicle Joe’s life with the Yankees.
So, it’s basically his “Yankee Autobiography”.
I happen to like Joe Torre. A LOT, quite frankly.
However, A’s I do with friends, clients and everybody else, I don’t tell them what they want to hear.
I tell them the truth.
The truth is, Joe was treated VERY well by the Yankees and Joe did a great job managing the team.
HOWEVER, it was time for a change and BOTH parties knew it.
It was always going to be a tough parting but, neither side treated the other side like “garbage”.
In fact, if you talk to Torre now, he will tell you he not only believes he was treated well by the Yankees, he wishes he didn’t write the book.
Have a good day folks.
You know what? I think Cano could hit more HRs and hit for a higher average, if he doesn’t start improving by July I think the Yankees might go in a different direction.
See how stupid that sounds?
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Yeah,it sounds incredibly stupid,comparing Gardner with Robinson Cano,the best baseball player on the planet right now.