Mistakes of the past, problems of the present
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Feb 12, 2011 
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The post-2000 Yankees were not quite the disappointments they’re often made out to be. They failed to achieve the near-impossible standards set by the late-90s dynasty, but consistently reaching the playoffs is all any team can ask for on a year-to-year basis. Too many things have to go right in the postseason to expect any sort of regularity there.
For proof, just look at all the wild card teams that have won the World Series. Through 162 games they weren’t the best teams in their divisions. For one month, they were the best teams in baseball.
Despite the positives, though, it’s clear that not everything went right during those eight years immediately following the Yankees run of championships. There were lessons to be learned, and this morning Ben needed only 11 words to sum up the biggest lesson of all: Moves made out of restlessness and desperation are not the answer.
Most likely, moves to acquire Bartolo Colon and Freddy Garcia are not the answer either, but at least those signings have no chance of haunting the franchise. At best, Garcia and Colon are place-holders. At worst, they’re a waste of spring training innings. Just because they’re part of a desperate situation doesn’t make them desperate signings.
“You can’t force it,” Brian Cashman said at Andy Pettitte’s retirement press conference. “If you want to force it, you’re going to make a mistake and maybe overpay.”
The Yankees are trying to learn from the high-dollar mistakes of the previous decade. There is a new focus on player development, and the Steinbrenners’ pocketbook is being used to eliminate those holes that the system can’t adequately fill. That’s why Brett Gardner and Phil Hughes were given second chances in 2011. That’s why — until the Rafael Soriano signing — the bullpen has been pieced together with internal options and low-risk, mid-season trade targets.
The Yankees haven’t stopped spending. Two years ago, Cashman pushed ownership to spend more, not less, and in a matter of weeks he radically transformed the rotation and the heart of the order. But the Yankees can’t make that kind of splash every offseason. They have to pick their free agent battles.
They chose not to engage in any big battles last year. They lost the only big battle worth fighting this year.
“When Cliff made his declaration of going to Philadelphia, all of the inventory that we liked came off the board,” Cashman said.
The Yankees have a rotation problem this season, but it seems one lesson they’ve learned is this: It does no good to take this year’s problem, and turn it into a problem that lasts four or five years down the line.
Associated Press photo
Well I find it ridiculous that the guest poster was embarrassed by all these “failures”. The best hitters fail 7/10 times……and only 1 team can win the WS. Most teams would kill to have been in the Yankees’ position; sure it would have been great to have won another WS between 2000 and 2009, but that is not a long span of years when you consider that some teams haven’t won in decades. It’s extremely hard to win a WS now, given all the layers of playoffs a team has to advance through.
# joeman February 12th, 2011 at 11:52 am
# SJ44 February 12th, 2011 at 11:48 am
Tex has a full NTC and Scott Boras as his agent.
Meaning, he’s not going anywhere he doesn’t want to go and isn’t going to accommodate the Yankees to his own detriment.
He’s settled in Greenwich, has excellent off-field business opportunities and loves playing for the Yankees.
He’s not going anywhere anytime soon.
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lives on a deadend street right by a golf course ….had the pleasure of meeting him last spring , down there for storm trouble..very nice kid
Betsy,
He’s young so we have to cut him some slack. What he didn’t realize was he contradicted himself by saying how he celebrated 2009 and now is preaching patience.
2009 doesn’t happen without owners willing to open the checkbook very wide. It was the opposite of patience. Kennedy and Hughes were basically banished from the rotation for CC and AJ.
The prospect huggers never want to admit that. They believe that if we didn’t sign all those guys all of the prospects would develop beautifully and perfectly and fill the holes and we’d win titles here and there.
If you celebrated the Yankees winning in 2009, you celebrated your team spending 60 million that season on CC, AJ and Tex who weren’t Yankees the year before.
That’s why I don’t understand how the penny pinching “We can’t spend that!” fans can be Yankee fans.
Betsy, Aside from the fact that Tex wouldn’t wave his.no trade. You’re looking at 6/140 for Teixera vs possibly 10/275 for Pujols. Pujols is better player but is he twice as good?
A’s far A’s the rotation “problem” is concerned, I think that’s TBA.
We have to see what happens.
What if AJ returns to 2008-2009 form?
What if Ivan Nova becomes a dependable back end of the rotation guy?
What if a kid like Adam Warren pitches himself into the rotation?
If these things occur, not impossible I might add, a percieved
Didn’t know Tex and I lived in the same town. I better be ready to put the shift on if I ever see him driving the down the road pulling to the right.
I agree multiple rounds of playoffs often mean the best team doesn’t win. I do agree with an earlier poster that the best way to improve your odds is with 3-4 good starters. The Giants were not the best team, but they had the starters.
The first goal is, of course, the playoffs. That can be done in a variety of ways. I hope the Yankees can hang close and then acquire that good playoff pitcher somewhere along the way.
In my view as currently built, the team may be able to make the playoffs, but must have another solid starter to advance in the playoffs.
Hit send too soon……
A percieved weakness becomes a strength.
What the rotation lacks is surety in February.
We don’t know for sure if it lacks anything until we see these guys play.
GLove, that’s very true…..and I roll my eyes at Yankee fans who are embarrassed by the $$ we spend or think we ought not to improve the team because it could be unfair to other teams.
Blake, I probably wouldn’t do it simply because the Yankees can win and have won with Tex …and it’s a ton of money to give to Albert…but ask me how I feel if Tex disappears for another month and a half or two.
What if Boston pays 45+ million dollars for a 3-5 in their rotation that turns out to be worse than the Yankees?
I would rather Yanks got Benoit instead at half or 1/3 cost of Soriano. But by the time, Yanks waited for lee on a decision. Benoit has gone off the board quickly.
ayatollah,
I agree. That other starter though could already be on the team.
Time will tell.
Excellent post, Chad
The 2 years before Giambi came to the Yankees he had an OPS in both those seasons higher than any single season of Albert Pujols’ career.
If Tex takes April and May off again (when he wasn’t injured last year by the way, got injured later in the season) this board will be screaming for Pujols if he’s heading for free agency.
A .250 smash into the shift hitter is not what the Yankees signed up for 2 years into a long term deal.
He has to bounce back. Has to. Or that contract will turn into a serious albatross like Giambi’s did.
Austinmac…
iPhone acting up again.
Baseball history is full of great players who start slow.
It’s why you judge players over the course of a full season and not just a month or two.
LGY,
Giambi was a product of steroids and who knows what else.
Pujols is doing all this in the age of testing. Is he clean? Who knows. But he hasn’t gotten caught and his name isn’t on any lists and he’s still hitting like a machine.
SJ44,
If the Yanks rotation does turn out to be a major weakness, you know this board will be tearing Cash and the FO a new one.
But would that be deserved?
Just curious… since anything short of dominance will be criticized.
GLove,
Tex was hurt from May on last year.
Hamstring issues in late April, early May and his thumb was messed up for months before people noticed it when he hurt it again in Baltimore later in the year.
I took Ben’s preaching patience to mean not signing a player just to make a move, which I agree with. I didn’t get that he objected to signing players who are valuable, such as CC, Tex and hopefully AJ.
G Love
we better not hear that you are stalking Tex!
G.Love,
I do have concerns about Teixeras swing and how he will age if he doesn’t change some things mechanically but swapping the 2 isn’t so simple…..there is the no trades and the fact that if Albert were traded to the Yankees he would most certainly have to top Alex’s deal. It might seriously take 10/300 to extend him after a trade to NY……for that give me 6 more years of Tex…..
GLove, slow starts are one thing – every player slumps, whether it’s the beginning of the season or weeks afterward – but Tex has taken these month/2 month long droughts and there’s no excuses for those.
BD,
This board panics over ST results. At least from certain factions.
They can’t turn over the team every year.
Right now, they have to see what they have among the kids and NRI’s, and see if AJ can bounce back.
A’s it is in every other year, the roster in February is not going to be the entire roster the rest of the year.
A rotation of CC, Hughes and AJ pitching at a high level with a phenomenal bullpen is plenty of pitching for a post-season series. It’s a silly argument for February anyway.
But who wouldn’t like to see the Yanks add a top notching starter?
King Felix is signed for four more seasons, so he can’t push his way out like Grienke who had just two. Still, if he tires of being on a losing team……
SJ,
I stand corrected. Didn’t know he got hurt that soon into the season. Hope that explains the problems he had then.
Watching him day after pounding into the shift when he wasn’t hitting HR’s was too much of a Giambi flashback. I couldn’t sit through another six years of walks or HR’s and nothing else after having gone through that with Giambi.
Check Tex’s results each year.
The guy is a great player.
Let’s not start convincing ourselves he’s some hack.
Every player has off-seasons in their career. Very few don’t.
Tex’s “off” seasons represent career years for many guys.
I am surprised that Kuroda signed with dodgers so quickly and for one yr. He is guy I would be interested if he does becomes available later on.
blake February 12th, 2011 at 12:07 pm
What if Boston pays 45+ million dollars for a 3-5 in their rotation that turns out to be worse than the Yankees?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That’s a very real possibility. Boston will need nearly 100% good health from their 1-5 starters because unlike the Yankees, they have no close to major league pitching to call on from their farm system nor any to use as trading chips. They’re on a slippery slope. Wakefield is their only real hope if a starter goes down.
As far as their catching situation, all of baseball knows it’s a genuine weakness.
Crawford and Gonzalez will have to do no worse than equal the production when Beltre and Martinez left. ESPN will however make them favorites as will Gammons. Go figure.
Tex isn’t Giambi. He’s not a product of PED’s who basically stopped looking to improve as a player once he got to NY.
Tex is a dedicated guy who is always looking to get better.
I’d give the guy a break before we conclude he’s on the downside of his career.
108,
Very true. On paper Boston’s back end 3-5 looks better (certainly more expensive) but they have zero depth after those guys. The Yanks have young kids with talent 8-10 deep…..
Giambi was perhaps a product of steroids, however, before he got to YS, he was a .300 hitter who used all fields. I can understand the power decline as a result of stopping PEDs, but not the rest of it. At any rate, Giambi at the time was viewed by GS as an improvement over the incumbent and he chose to go after him strong.
I won’t comment further on how good Tex is or isn’t, but I was never a Giambi fan…….and I actually now completely dislike him because of his Alex comments in that SI article. I never found him appealing in any way.
# G. Love February 12th, 2011 at 12:03 pm
Didn’t know Tex and I lived in the same town. I better be ready to put the shift on if I ever see him driving the down the road pulling to the right.
———————–
lives up by the parkway
The first time Pujols has an 0-15, goes three weeks without hitting a HR or GASP, has a bad post-season series, he would get CRUSHED here.
All we would hear is how the Yankees are “saddled” with another bad contract.
G. Love,
That post was directed at the conversation between Doreen and WC in the last thread.
Steroids or not, Giambi was an absolute beast before he came to the Yankees. He was heading into FA with 2 seasons better than any season Pujols has had in his career offensively.
They complain about not giving the “kids” a chance, but want every high dollar pitching/offensive name picked up. They want the “kids” like the “3 B’s” brought up now, but when/if they fail to produce immediately, they trash the ‘kids” and then the front office for rushing them. It’s an annual pattern, both by “fans” and media.
These were the numbers in the 3 seasons prior to joining the Yankees.
.330/.458/.617 1.075 OPS.
Which is to say, without I’m fine with Doreen mentioning the two in the “same breath.”
FWIW, Garcia had 18 quality starts last year, more than Lee. His change up was also pretty good against lefties, crucial given the one lefty starter in the rotation now.
3-5 the RS are definitely better and just not paper. The depth has to a big concern for them, Age and injury concerns have to be there when you consider Maz,Lackey and Beckett recent track record. Beckett is as big question mark as Burnett IMO.
I hope cashman will try to get another good lefty in the rotation if not this year then definitely next some how some way. 04 could have been different if we had a lefty or 2 to go up against all of those good left handed bats boston had
so betsy, you are down on phil, down on tex, anybody else?
Pujols is not coming to NY in 2011.
Tex is just fine. He will have his 30-100, early slumps and all. And he will also help win games with his great defense.
The Yankees have the best infield in baseball. Personally, I could not care less right now whether Al will be DH in 2012 or 2013 or whenever. Nor do I care about whether Derek will be productive over his entire contract,all I know is there’s a reason he’s recognized and admired by his own peers.
Go Yankees … in 2011!!!!!!!
These were Giambi’s numbers with the Yankees for anyone that cares.
.260/.404/.521 .925 OPS.
Averages: 128 games, 30 HR 86 RBIs.
SJ —
There’s enough dumb whining around here without inventing hypothetical dumb whining.
Giambi was a very good offensive player, but lousy defender and worse base runner. It was a huge mistake to pay twice as much for him as it would have taken to keep Tino. His greatest offensive seasons were not enough better than Pujols’ or even Tex’s to make up for his shortcomings.
If each were at his best at the same age you would take Pujols, Teixiera and Giambi in that order
Beckett is as big question mark as Burnett IMO.
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Absolutely.
Nothing is certain except that nothing is certain.
Boston looks to have the best shot at the division going into the season but no one won a world series based on how good of an off season they had. There are 162 games between now and the playoffs. We’ll see. If nothing else, with the potential to see several young pitching prospects starting games, it should be a great season.
86 its more complicated than that. the yankees were correct in predicting tino’s best days were behind him, he did noting in stl. and certainly anybody would have predicted that giambi was an upgrade at the time.
but even if it didnt cost you an arm and a leg to move tex (if that were even possible) it is not definite that pujols is worth the extra it would cost you to make that move.
i cant believe so many people are down on tex just one year after the WS championship that he had so much to do with. i questioin alot of people’s credentials as real yankees fans when i see that kind of stuff.
good point jacson. if garcia give the yankees the same stuff he had last year, he is definilty a solid but not spectacular back end of the rotation pitcher and the yankees will have chances to upgrade from that both from the farm and the trade market as this season goes on. i dont think we have a stud rotation top to bottom now, but people who see a desparate situation are way overdramatizing where we are now. (in a lot of cases just because they need something to back up thier cash hatred.)
It will be interesting to watch the spring training competition for then starter roles. Too bad, where I live then spring games I can see are few and far between.
Only way Pujols becomes a Yankee is if (all very big if’s) :
1.) Albert wants to play in pinstripes
2.) Texeira wants to play for the Red Birds.
3.) Yanks would have to send
Tex;
two top end “Killer Bee” pitching prospects;
along with either Romaine or Sanchez
and another lower level prospect .
Also Pujols would have to agree with long term deal with Yanks before they part with that armada of talent.
Card would need to give Tex a bit more money to make him happy in St. Louis…
I can definately see Randy Levine orchestrating this type of move…
“If each were at his best at the same age you would take Pujols, Teixiera and Giambi in that order
———————
Giambi’s 3 best seasons:
.330/.462/.634 1.096 OPS
Averaged 41 HR 126 RBIs.
24.6 Total fWAR
Giambi was better than Tex at his best. Significantly so actually.
i cant believe so many people are down on tex just one year after the WS championship that he had so much to do with. i questioin alot of people’s credentials as real yankees fans when i see that kind of stuff.
———–
Agree with the first thought. But I don’t question their being a Yankees fan as much as I do their short memories. It’s the old “what have you done for me lately” mentality. Not my preferred way of doing things.
LGY says:
February 12, 2011 at 12:54 pm
“If each were at his best at the same age you would take Pujols, Teixiera and Giambi in that order
———————
Giambi’s 3 best seasons:
.330/.462/.634 1.096 OPS
Averaged 41 HR 126 RBIs.
24.6 Total fWAR
Giambi was better than Tex at his best. Significantly so actually.
———-
Ignoring the PEDs.
The Giambino had some mega-monster offensive years but was always a huge defensive liability particularly when he a play required him to throw the baseball.
Tex is by far the more more complete all-around player.
Giambi… really a monster DH.
I’d rather have Tex. But my credibility might be in question as I am currently sitting at the movies waiting for the Justin Bieber movie to start. Someone shoot me.
Austin-
Why don’t you consider getting mlb.com ?
I believe they will show a lot of the ST games.
Its $100 for the whole season, and if you are traveling you can still get games on your computer.
Just a thought.
“Ignoring the PEDs.”
——————
The idea is not who is the hypothetical best player in his prime. It is who was.
Also, we have no idea if Tex took PEDs in his prime.
Now we’re talking about moving Teixeira? And signing Pujols?
You are all insane.
Mark Teixeira will be OK. He’s a product of his father’s teaching and may be reaching the point of working with Kevin Long to reduce some loft in his swing and possibly less moving parts in the batter’s box similar to what’s been done with Swisher and Granderson.
Thanks for proving cybermetrics mean nothing sometimes.
WCYF – thank you for displaying your ignorance on your shirtsleeve.
Comparing Giambi to Pujols! LMAO!!!!!!!!
# Dionysius Thelxinoe February 12th, 2011 at 12:39 pm
Beckett is as big question mark as Burnett IMO.
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Absolutely.
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don’t really know if thats true, one didn’t pitch well because he was hurt on and off last year, the other didn’t pitch well after the first two months for who knows what reason…..
now being real here, I’ll trade Burnett for Beckett right now
Also odds are Cardinals gives Albert the contract he deserves.
They really should do the right thing and keep him in St. Louis.
Tex belongs in pinstripes as well.
I just see Randy Levine exploring a trade behind the scenes.
Also if Gonzalez proves healthy and the BoSox fail to offer legit long-term contract…
Boston loses credibility.
In the future… all big time players will require a long term deal in place before heading to BeanTown.
Beckett hasn’t been consistent EVER in his career. Unfortunately I think that means he’s due for a good year.
we have no idea if Tex took PEDs in his prime.
————————————————————-
True. But we DO know for sure about Giambi. And that counts for plenty in my book.
if the yankees went through 5 years like 88-93 now, almost half the commenters on here would stop watching and rooting for the yankees.
to me that defines a fair-weather fan.
hopefully they won’t be so tested.
You’re welcome stat lover.
Dionysius what does it count for?
The stats are logged, those seasons are over. Giambi outperformed a lot of people.
Drugs or no drugs, it’s written in the books. You can’t take that away from him.
now being real here, I’ll trade Burnett for Beckett right now
———————————————-
Can’t argue with that. But it still doesn’t mean that Beckett is not as big a question marki as AJ in 2011.
WCYF – don’t worry, you’ll grow up some day and realize your narrow view of the world isn’t the edge of the sea.
“True. But we DO know for sure about Giambi. And that counts for plenty in my book.”
——————
That still does not address the question though of who was better at their peak.
We can’t go back in time and take away Giambi’s steroids. I’ll take a roided up Giambi at his peak over Tex at his peak any day.
Even when Tex is struggling w/ the bat, he helps the team w/ those amazing defensive plays.
tyanks
Justin Bieber? Please tell me you are taking some youngster w/ you!!
Irreverent Discourse February 12th, 2011 at 1:02 pm
Now we’re talking about moving Teixeira? And signing Pujols?
You are all insane.
————————————————————————-
You got that right!!
Next topic will be getting rid of CC because he’s going to opt out and trade for King Felix
I think not comparing a known steroid user’s accomplishments as a power hitter with someone who hasn’t been known to use steroids makes me a bit more level headed than you.
Giambi has 6 seasons with an OPS over 970. Including 3 with an OPS over 1.
Tex has no seasons with an OPS over 970. He has 3 over 950 and topped out at .963
upstate kate,
Right on. I can’t remember how many times I said while watching the games, man it’s great to have Tex at first. He was the anchor to a stellar infield.
WCYF – who is making that comparison? oh, no one.
its a very simple conversation. Giambi in his prime, while on drugs or not, outperformed Teixeira at his. Can ya follow?
No one is saying to start a franchise around Giambi or that he was the best first basemen ever. You are just making ridiculous conclusions from a conversation you aren’t following.
Irreverent Discourse February 12th, 2011 at 1:09 pm
Dionysius what does it count for?
The stats are logged, those seasons are over. Giambi outperformed a lot of people.
Drugs or no drugs, it’s written in the books. You can’t take that away from him.
——————————————-
ID, granted it’s a value judgment on my part. But to say that “it’s written in the books. You can’t take that away from him.” Well, I think it CAN be, in a manner of speaking. Maybe not those stats that are logged in the books and readily cited. But Giambi’s stats are no more legitimate for comparison than the records set by Bonds and McGwire in their time compared to those whose records they broke.
WCYF – Do you make fun of professors or scientists when they talk about things you don’t understand? You’ll be a good laugh for your peers if you ever make it to college.
Kate
I am, I’m meeting my friend and her 5 year old. I felt like a total loser when I was by myself asking for the ticket. If I was 8 years younger I would have seen this movie last night when he came out. I was a HUGE Backstreet Boy fan.
Dionysius – Legitimate or not…
They happened.
They are recorded…
and they were better.
I’m not apologizing for being concerned about a 20+ million player who hits .250 and disappeared last year for April, May and Sept.
We’ve just gotten through the Giambi years and watched a guy who before coming here was a .300 plus power hitter to all fields. Then he became a Yankee, get busted for PED’s and become a smash into the shift guy who only walked or HR’d.
Tex showed glimpses of that kind of offensive approach last year. If you can’t admit that, you weren’t at all the games I was. What I don’t know until we see him play this season was whether that was a sign of things to come or just an aberration.
I’m hoping it’s a product of injuries and he bounces back. His defense is exceptional and he has great power and a great eye.
But if he hits for a low average again though, he’s not the player the Yankees and the fans thought they signed just like Giambi wasn’t the player the Yankees signed.
And if he can’t get his average up there will be calls for Pujols from some of you here who are acting like the thought of the Yankees pursuing Pujols as a free agent is ridiculous right now.
I wasn’t talking about Teixeira and Giambi. The comparison made on the previous thread was Giambi and Pujols, that’s what I was referring to, look at my 1:03 post.
Actually Mark Teixeira is IN his prime right now. He played only one season before steroid testing. Not knowing what he did before that is irrelevant.
Actually, what ANYONE did before testing should be irrelevant. Unfortunately a group of self righteous under informed selective moralists have decided otherwise. Such is life
tyanks
whew! that is a relief! looking forward to more of your pix
I completely understand metrics, you are too blind to understand my point. They detract from the game ‘when overused’. They dull and smear the simple artistic beauty of the game which existed long before computers did. Would you prefer a photo-realistic computer painting hanging on your wall or a Van Gogh?
MTU,
I always get MLB.com games, but I guess I have always gotten it nearer then season starting since I didn’t know they showed spring games.
Thank you for your usual wisdom.
LGY February 12th, 2011 at 1:10 pm
“True. But we DO know for sure about Giambi. And that counts for plenty in my book.”
——————
That still does not address the question though of who was better at their peak.
We can’t go back in time and take away Giambi’s steroids. I’ll take a roided up Giambi at his peak over Tex at his peak any day.
———————————————–
LGY, I’m not questioning YOUR pov, just offering my own, in a context which DOES consider his performance with PEDs as opposed to his performance without them and in a stronger lineup.
Look, I was elated when they signed Giambi. Those were huge numbers he was putting up and I saw him a a HOF candidate in progress.
But personally, I have a problem using his numbers in those years for comparison, that’s all.
But my own pov compels to look at his performance
WCYF – your 1:03 post doesn’t refer to.. anything. certainly the words “previous thread” never appear in it.
So I went back and looked.
At no point does ANYONE but YOU compare Giambi to Pujols. It was only briefly mentioned that signing Pujols now stinks like signing Giambi did at the time. So then you went off on this whole tirade, literally arguing with NO ONE. Then you come into this thread, make some blanket baby statement like “cybermetrics means nothing” that follows no context of any conversation.
So, tell me… what exactly ARE you talking about… or to whom?
Because people often get lumped into one group over another just for taking part in a conversation, I want to make it clear that I do not want to get rid of Teixeira. I am not on the trash Tex bandwagon.
I think Pujols is a phenomenal player, but I don’t believe he is a necessary piece for the Yankees.
At the time, I did not think Giambi was a necessary piece for the Yankees.
That is the level of my comparison making.
It is easy to say now that the Yankees were smart to replace Tino. At the time, it wasn’t all that clear and to many fans going after Giambi seemed like overkill.
Also, at the time the Yankees acquired Giambi, his PED usage was not “known” though I’m sure there were some who suspected, and he was indeed considered an elite offensive player at the time. LGY – thanks for providing the stats on that.
It is too easy to look back with 20/20 hindsight and say what should or shouldn’t have been done or even what was or wasn’t done.
“Premature submit button syndrome”
EDIT
LGY, I’m not questioning YOUR pov, just offering my own, in a context which DOES consider his performance with PEDs as opposed to his performance without them and in a stronger lineup.
Look, I was elated when they signed Giambi. Those were huge numbers he was putting up and I saw him a a HOF candidate in progress.
But personally, I have a problem using his numbers in those years for comparison, that’s all.
Kate
Well Justin Bieber is cute so she didn’t really have to twist my arm too much. I’m hoping to get some good pics in the coming weeks.
Pujols 3 best seasons:
.349/.443/.663 1.106 OPS
Averaged: 43 HR 126 RBIs
27.1 Total fWAR
Giambi 3 best seasons:
.330/.462/.634 1.096 OPS
Averaged 41 HR 126 RBIs.
24.6 Total fWAR
good article on Rothschild:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02.....nkees.html
LGY – I’d say their peaks are pretty damn similar. Damn those tricksy numbers!
The difference obviously being that when looking at the full body of work, Pujols has sustained that peak damn near his entire career.
If you believe Pujols numbers are totally clean, I have a bridge to sell you. You probably also believed Giambi’s and McGuires and Bonds numbers were clean at the time.
Irreverent Discourse February 12th, 2011 at 1:17 pm
Dionysius – Legitimate or not…
They happened.
They are recorded…
and they were better.
———————————–
ID, not gonna beat a dead horse here, but …
Your last 3 points? No question!
But your first point, and using them as a basis for comparison? Questionable … to me.
LGY–
Wait a minutre…I don’t believe those numbers for a second, and the analysis is flawed. Basically, those numbers represent “DIGITS,” not “PEOPLE.” And who are we to believe digits over people and furthermore wouldn’t it be more beautiful if the digits were photographs represented in a holistic manner than simply graphical representations of reality? Answer me that!
Dionyius – Sure, no one (i hope) would be attempting to claim Giambi a better overall baseball player… or that you would attempt to start a franschise around a PED monkey…
just that for a point in time he was as productive as the best players in the game.
“PED monkey”
Nice. I like that.
Obviously the biggest difference is that Giambi had a short peak from age 29-31….Pujols has been nothing but peak since he came into the league at 21 and is vastly superior defensively….as is Teixera.
PED monkey
Harsh!
I don’t see the Yankees being interested in Pujols. Besides, wouldn’t it be silly for them to pay Arod millions for breaking records, and then turn right around and have to pay Pujols millions for breaking the same records?
Jackson
thanks for the link on Rothschild…good stuff. I am looking forward to see what he does w/ the staff. It will be an interesting spring training.
Millwoods numbers against the Sox (those w/ more than 10 ab’s):
OPPOSING HITTER AB H BA OBP SLG OPS
J.D. Drew 37 12 0.324 0.419 0.514 0.932
Jason Varitek 33 13 0.394 0.444 0.636 1.081
David Ortiz 29 11 0.379 0.486 0.828 1.314
Marco Scutaro 28 4 0.143 0.212 0.143 0.355
Mike Cameron 20 5 0.25 0.348 0.5 0.848
Dustin Pedroia 19 4 0.211 0.286 0.263 0.549
Carl Crawford 17 5 0.294 0.333 0.412 0.745
Kevin Youkilis 15 7 0.467 0.556 0.533 1.089
Jacoby Ellsbury 13 3 0.231 0.286 0.462 0.747
RS – would it be silly… or good marketing?
Np, my pleasure kate.
Apologies on the spacing for the numbers posted above.
Steinbrenner wins another championship
in soccer
http://www2.tbo.com/content/20.....repsports/
calling out players for ped usage is a pretty futile excersice.
but calling out anyone who expresses dismay over it is also unfair.
ped’s brought the fairness and sportsmanship in baseball into question and covered the game in a shroud of disrepute. laugh if you want , but ped’s hurt the reputation of baseball.
trying to sort out who did ped’s and why is also futile. as is trying to skew the records to make up for ped fueled statistics.
but just ignoring that they happened (during the ‘PED era’ as well as before and after it) and condemning anyone who decries thier use and abuse is unfair, imo.
baseball fans have every right to be dismayed that the ped thing happened like it did, its just that it happened, there is nothing we can do about it and you have to accpet it as it is
doesnt mean you dont have a right to be pissed off about it.
Jackson, I’m curious, AGon never faced Millwood?
Yeah he did but only 6 ab’s so I left him out. .167 avg, 1 hit a double. 3 walks and 1 so.
Tx, Jax, didn’t see your 10 ab blurb the first time.
YS Guy —
I assume that was targeted at me.
I’m fine with anyone who wants to be saddened by or angry about the steroid era, but PED use has been a part of baseball since illegal amphetamine use became prevalent ohh about 75 years ago. then again, PED use has been part of competition sports forever.
The amphetamine ban has had more to do with the decline of the 35+ ballplayers than the steroid ban as far as I’m concerned… and most baseball people I have spoken with (players, ex-players, scouts, coaches etc) agree.
On another item — though I would not be thrilled with Millwood in the mix, he was pretty good in Texas in 2009 and was off to a good start last year with a 3.71 ERA after 10 starts. Like AJ Burnett he had a terrible last four months. The difference is Millwood was pretty lousy in 2007-08 too while AJ was pretty good prior to the last four months of ’10.
I just don’t go along with the attitude that wants 6-12 players of the mid-nineties to bear all of the burden, all of the criticism and all of the punishment for the steroid era.
“The amphetamine ban has had more to do with the decline of the 35+ ballplayers than the steroid ban as far as I’m concerned… and most baseball people I have spoken with (players, ex-players, scouts, coaches etc) agree. ”
I don’t know if this is true for certain but I do think its possible.
86 it was not directed at you, just the subject and ppl being labeled ped monkeys or whatever, nothing really specific.
and i’m not angry about them, just defending the right to that opinion. i’m alot more live and let live myself.
i’ve been known to partake of some PED’s of a different kind, if you know what i mean. at least they enhanced my performance listening to music or eating mallomars.
i did mention ped usage before, during and after the ‘ped era’ also b/c there has never been.
*never really ever been a ‘clean’ era as far as im concerned.*
premature send
blake, check out verducci on SI.com post from yesterday concerning position players over 35.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/
It’s not provable, but it makes plenty of sense to me.
HR productivity isn’t the ony players older players have dropped off statistically. Fewer games played,few guys with 150+ hits (according to MLC Channel) have also been documented. Banning steroids is likely a factor in the power, but would not explain the other if you understand which drugs serve which purposes.
I’m all for the testing program baseball has and for the penalties being even tougher. I’m just opposed to inventing retroactive punishments for behavior (real or imagined) prior to any formal testing program.
Tweets from one leg centipede: NY is interested in Dallas Bradon.
What the failure to win the WS in 2003 and the ALCS in 2004 demonstrated was that Torre wasn’t the great manager that some (and Joe himself) wanted to pretend he was.
Other than that, stuff happens.
Jackson:
Thanks for posting the NY Times article on Larry Rothschild. I was hell bent on Gil Patterson when Eiland was dismissed but have since got on board with Rothschild and his work ethic. Hopefully he’s the pitcher’s version of Kevin Long.
Joe Torre was one of the greatest Yankees managers ever and that’s about as objective as a statement can be.
10 years – 4 World Series Championships – 6 American League Pennants – 10 first place finishes in the division – 2 second place finishes.
5th most wins of any manager all-time – 2nd most wins of any Yankee manager 1,173
sic – 12 years as Yankee manager
Madrugador February 12th, 2011 at 12:44 pm
Nothing is certain except that nothing is certain.
///
No Thing is certain, this is true.Only consciousness,which makes “things”,is certain.