The same old conversation (one more time)
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Podcast on Feb 16, 2011 
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I know the Joba Chamberlain starter-vs-reliever debate has gotten old, but I also know plenty of people still have questions about the decision, and both Brian Cashman and Chamberlain talked about it today. Here are a few of their comments about the situation.
Brian Cashman
On whether there have been mechanical changes since Chamberlain’s shoulder injury:
“He’s always had trouble repeating his delivery. That was prior to the Texas issue, that’s always been an issue for him. I wouldn’t trace any mechanical changes to what took place in Texas.”
On vcelocity changes since the shoulder injury:
“He used to throw 95-plus from pitch one as a starter. He doesn’t do that now. But he can do that out of the bullpen. And that also happens with the evolution of players regardless. Some guys come out of the minor leagues throwing gas, and eventually in their mid 20s start to settle in, and their stuff backs off over time. It could be that too.”
On initially keeping him as a starter after the injury:
“The velocity was down. People were asking questions. Joe would have meetings with him. Is he pacing himself? Is he saving his bullets? Never had those conversations before. If you’re saving your bullets, don’t. You’ve got to empty the tank, right from inning one. He would try, but it just wasn’t there. At some point, you accept it. This is what you see out of the rotation, this is what you see out of the bullpen. They’re radically different. It used to be the same out of the rotation and the bullpen. It played the same. Now when you scout him it’s not. It’s radically different out of the bullpen.”
Joba Chamberlain
On whether he’s felt the same since the shoulder injury:
“I’ve never been in the same spot so I’m always trying to figure out what works for me, making the adjustments on the fly. I’ve had to learn to pitch in the big leagues. I’m trying to make adjustments but still trying to get outs. This is the first year where I’ve had the opportunity to look back at the times I’ve been in the bullpen, the times I’ve been a starter, to know the whole year that’s where I’m going to be. I just took bits and pieces that were effective for me from the years before. The shoulder was never an issue, so I was never worried about that, I was never worried about, health-wise, anything on that.”
What does it mean to be built for the bullpen?
“I have no idea. I don’t know what that means. That’s a question you’d have to ask him. Everybody’s perception is different of what they feel. That’s a question for him (Cashman).”
Is there frustration in being assigned this role?
“No. I’m still fighting for a job on this team. Like I said, I don’t care what it is. If they feel like I’m a better fit to help us win in the bullpen, I’m not going to sit here and argue and stomp my feet like a little kid and pout about it. I’ve got the opportunity to win a job and help us have one of the best bullpens in baseball. I’ve got to take that and not worry about what the other stuff is.”
Cashman spoke outside, so the audio is pretty shaky. Here’s Chamberlain, though. He talks about both the bullpen assignment and the weight issue.
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Associated Press photos
Joba: “I’m in better shape that I have been in a couple of years.”
Tack one more of the best shape of my life board.
Does anyone know what the dbacks wanted for Haren last year?
Had a log-in issue. Anyway, Scott Aldred was the PC who fixed Joba and found the additional velo when Joba was in the minors. He accompanied Joba to Hawaii and that’s where the changes were made.
Virtually every pitcher loses velo as a starter. I still don’t understand why he can’t start.
Repost:
And by the way, in my opinion it is beyond simplistic to say something like “Hughes and Joba. One did it this way, the other did it that.” How about something like this? Hughes and Joba. One grew up on an Indian reservation, without a mother because she left him when he was a baby, and with a father who was wheelchair bound. That one didn’t have the benefit of a system geared toward supporting and nurturing his career. Rather his entire support system was a father in a wheelchairand he only got to be a starter and play for a college team because his father went to bats for him and talked the coach into it.
The other grew up in a very supportive middle-class family and was given all of the benefits of an environment where kids are nurtured and supported and coached and promoted. He learned his work ethic and values from that kind of system and didn’t have to have his parents make phone calls to talk organizations into giving him a chance. He spent his entire youth in a well-greased system where progression was a natural outcome of great talent.
_____________
Don’t kid yourselves. Both had amazing talent. The one from the Indian reservation had a lot harder time having that talent recognized because he wasn’t in a ready-made atmosphere where recognizing and fostering athletic talent was treated the same it was in middle-class California. A kid from an Indian reservation in Oklahoma just did not have the same benefits as the other kid did.
___________
Cut to the present. One kid is still reflecting the system in which he was brought up, his work ethic and values totally ingrained as part of his progression through the systems that were well in place.
And the other? He’s probably still reflecting the system in which he was brought up. Tough to undue all of those years where he didn’t have anywhere near the benefit and privilege of the other.
For that reason all of my support is beyond Joba. Phil doesn’t need it. He’s as ready made as they come.
Rich in NJ February 16th, 2011 at 10:24 pm
Virtually every pitcher loses velo as a starter. I still don’t understand why he can’t start.
_______________
I still think he will start in his future…maybe not with the Yankees…but he will leave them as a FA if they don’t give him the shot.
The good news is that the weight training may have strengthened his back and shoulder, and he could have regained his velocity. We’ll see.
I don’t remember this Eiland trying to get Joba to pitch to contact thing, but if he was that is really bad.
Hopefully Eiland was not pushing some pitch to contact philosophy. Even CC saw his K rate drop under Eiland.
Roths needs to come in here and preach what he does best.
Strikeouts.
Trisha–
Love your comments! I’m right there with you!
Rich in NJ, if there is any justice in this world, Joba will somehow find that opportunity to start again. The kid has been ping-ponged along, he was brought up too soon, and he was thrown to the wolves. If there’s anyone who could use a full-time mentor, someone who would really dedicate his time to working with and staying with a someone both on and off the field, it’s Joba. And the Yankees certainly have the resources to work out something like that. But they have to recognize the need first. I don’t think they have.
The kid isn’t a machine, he’s a person with a lot of baggage that he didn’t ask for who could benefit greatly from a little TLC.
LGY February 16th, 2011 at 10:31 pm
I don’t remember this Eiland trying to get Joba to pitch to contact thing, but if he was that is really bad.
Hopefully Eiland was not pushing some pitch to contact philosophy. Even CC saw his K rate drop under Eiland.
_______________
If I have the time, I’ll find the article and post it…Eiland was a moron. He couldn’t see what he had. I’ve been saying for over a year to can his butt…and find a pitching coach who preached power pitching. Glad it finally happened.
“Trisha–
Love your comments! I’m right there with you!”
If there was an emoticon for appreciative tears, I would use it. Thanks Bojo. I feel so much for that kid. Apparently you do too.
Good man.
That’s a terrific post Chad; lots of new stuff in there explaining the Yankees perspective on Joba over time. Excellent.
Well, if you want Ks, Rothschild seems to be the guy for it. And, if the Yanks want to build a staff with that sort of stuff (seems that way past couple years), then this is a marriage made in Heaven.
At least, that’s the theory.
And on that note…. ‘night all.
I’n not an Eiland fan either.
Joe–
Cashman changed his drafting strategy to get power arms because swing and miss pitchers win play-off games…so it makes sense to get a swing and miss PC.
Trisha—
Absolutely!
Rich in NJ, if there is any justice in this world, Joba will somehow find that opportunity to start again.
__
I agree with BoJo. I think he will start for another team. I’m too Yankee-centric to root for that.
Whoa. Are we back to the backgrounds? It could simply be one had an arm injury, the other had a leg injury.
One has better control because he’s able to repeat his delivery.
One was highly touted as a prospect, and the other rise through the system like a meteor.
I’ll tell you what Eiland did “well”. He coached Hughes in the off season before 2010 and did everything in his power to insure that the 5 spot went to Hughes. He told Hughes what to do and what he had to do to win the job. Eiland was Hughes’ biggest advocate. And of course, being the pitching coach didn’t hurt in terms of “giving an opinion” on who should be the 5th starter. If you went by stats, Mitre should have been the 5th starter. So much for that charade.
What did he do for Joba? Jack sh*t. Apparently if he was grooming the fair-haired one, he certainly wasn’t giving anything away to anyone else.
mel, backgrounds count a lot when you’re talking about ingrained values and work ethic. And benefits and privilege and support.
Life isn’t as simple as injury-no injury. If it weren, they’d all be wind-up toys.
heavier Joba! oh yeah.
trisha,
The only thing wrong with your jack sht theory us that Joba was the fair haired child before Hughes. Joba was given the opportunity to start in ’09. For the whole season. This is more Joba than Eiland or anyone else on the Yankees.
ONe thing I love about Joba is how much time he devotes to visiting kids in hospitals. You look at almost any photos of team visits, and Joba is there. The kid has a huge heart.
And I think Hughes is awesome and has an awesome work ethic. But I’m not blinded to the differences in where they’ve both been and how it manages to play out in their careers either.
Whatever happened to what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger?
There are countless stories of inner city kids that made it pro in all 3 of the major sports.
Besides, I’ve read enough stories about Harlan to believe he was plenty support for Joba. If Joba is lost, it’s recent not when he was cleaning bathrooms in the Lincoln public parks system.
Tricia…….It was more than just Eiland who wanted Phil in the Yanks rotation, just about everyone in the organization had him penciled in the 2010 rotation……..Had it not been for the flukish injuries in 07 and 08 Phil Hughes would have accumulated at least 60 wins by now…….He’s carried the ” can’t miss ” label since he was 16 years old…..I say this because he had a team of scouts watching him since he was 15…..
mel, so what that he was given the opportunity before Phil? If the systems weren’t in place to help him along in other ways, it doesn’t matter that his turn came first.
Phil has shown amazing maturity. Joba is like the big kid. Figuring out why isn’t rocket science.
“… Some guys come out of the minor leagues throwing gas, and eventually in their mid 20s start to settle in, and their stuff backs off over time. It could be that too.”
—————————————–
So it could be injury or it could be normal.
PAt M–
You’re right about the need to get Phil into the rotation…I think Trisha’s point is that Eiland showed significant favoritism towards Hughes and it wasn’t a fair competition.
Too bad they acquired Javy…Both kids should have had the chance to start.
What support did Joba need? He had it made. He was a starter in the Yankees rotation. He had the job, but lost it. I think if he kept his WHIP down in ’09, there wouldn’t have been an open competition in ST ’10.
Pat M, I don’t mean to down Phil in any way. There’s just a lot more that goes into their “differences” but it’s more comfortable for people to deal on the most obvious level. Maybe because I worked my entire adult life in the area of civil rights I’ve seen first hand the differences in the way kids turn out who have all the opportunities and benefits and the way kids turn out who don’t have the same systems in place.
“There are countless stories of inner city kids that made it pro in all 3 of the major sports.”
And there are countless more of inner city kids that didn’t. But stories abound of white middle class kids who had the skids greased for them so they didn’t have to much of anything but hone their craft.
Bronx Jeers February 16th, 2011 at 10:53 pm
So it could be injury or it could be normal.
___________
Let’s wait to see what he is throwing in April before we conclude that he has lost velocity.
He stated in article posted earlier that he regained velocity in 2nd half last year after picking up a weight training program, and that he continued it in off-season. He might had strengthened his shoulder and back to where he is back to throwing 97-100.
mel if you don’t get it you don’t. Maybe Bojo and I have enough similarities in our professional backgrounds that we look at life through a similar prism.
Good night folks!
# Triple Short of a Cycle February 16th, 2011 at 10:18 pm
Does anyone know what the dbacks wanted for Haren last year?
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some reliever that was struggling I forgot his name
“…I think Trisha’s point is that Eiland showed significant favoritism towards Hughes and it wasn’t a fair competition.”
As much as I think Eiland is a bad pitching coach, I think that decision was made above Eiland.
“Whatever happened to what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger?”
Well I ride through the city sometimes and see people sleeping in boxes who manage to get up every day. Somehow they don’t look quite as hearty as those who have slept in warm and comfortable beds.
Hughes was and is a much better pitcher than Joba, it’s that simple.
# trisha – true pinstriped blue February 16th, 2011 at 10:33 pm
Rich in NJ, if there is any justice in this world, Joba will somehow find that opportunity to start again. The kid has been ping-ponged along, he was brought up too soon, and he was thrown to the wolves. If there’s anyone who could use a full-time mentor, someone who would really dedicate his time to working with and staying with a someone both on and off the field, it’s Joba. And the Yankees certainly have the resources to work out something like that. But they have to recognize the need first. I don’t think they have.
The kid isn’t a machine, he’s a person with a lot of baggage that he didn’t ask for who could benefit greatly from a little TLC.
————————————-
Clemens would have been a good mentor for Joba before we found out about you know
Against All Odds,
right but do you know what the exact deal was and if it was ever conformed by Cash?
Hughes wasn’t a better pitcher than Joba in 2008.
I think Trish has hit the nail squarely on the head.
It’s Child Development 101. I see it on a daily basis at work.
I don’t remember this Eiland trying to get Joba to pitch to contact thing, but if he was that is really bad.
–
He learned Wangs sinker, it was a big thing. He was trying to get faster innings and stuff.
I’m sure the decision was made above Eiland. But Eiland as the pitching coach was the one in the position to help along or not help along. Whether he was given the word on what to do or not doesn’t affect the outcome.
Again, and I can’t say this strongly enough, I think Phil Hughes is going to one day lead the Yankee rotation. I’ve said that from jump street and haven’t changed my mind. This is about a statement someone made comparing the roads Phil and Joba “chose” to take and how Phil emerged victorious because he “chose” to do things a certain way.
I am positing that the “choice” may not have been a choice at all but the culmination of an entire life situation so different from Joba’s.
And like kids who haven’t had the same benefits as some others might need remedial help to catch up, so could it be the case with Joba. I have suggested that there are other types of remedial help I think the Yankees could offer to Joba to help him along, on and off the field.
Tarheel, THANK YOU!
I get it. I understand and agree with some of your points.
In talking about Phil, people should leave Joba’s background out of it and vice versa.
Phil and Joba are apples and oranges.
Rich, you know that’s unfair…….it’s sort of hard to show anything positive when you’re pitching with a broken rib.
# m February 16th, 2011 at 10:49 pm
trisha,
The only thing wrong with your jack sht theory us that Joba was the fair haired child before Hughes. Joba was given the opportunity to start in ’09. For the whole season. This is more Joba than Eiland or anyone else on the Yankees.
——————————————-
Do ppl forget or ignore Hughes’ 2008 season. He was given the job in camp. I understand he got hurt but he was named the starter coming out of ST
I liked Eiland, but admittedly he didn’t do great things with Phil or Joba. Maybe it’s a good thing to get them both away (esp. Phil, who practically grew up with Eiland) from him.
I’m sorry, but I fail to see how people sleeping in boxes has anything to do with Joba.
“I am positing that the “choice” may not have been a choice at all but the culmination of an entire life situation so different from Joba’s.”
Well, I really don’t believe in free will in the sense that every decision we make is a product of genetics and the environmental influences. So are choices are in effect constrained.
Phil lost his position as crown jewel of the farm system the minute he got hurt. While he was out, Joba-mania took over – and not just with the fans.
Betsy
There was virtually no pitcher in MLB who was better than Joba for large parts of 2008.
So it’s really not unfair.
Rich in NJ……That’s the point I was attempting to make , that it was a decision that was made beyond Dave Eiland……..Tricia, my remarks about Hughes was to point out how he has been dealing with expectations and pressure since he was a kid back in youth baseball……Physically and mentally he’d been preparing himself to be a professional baseball pitcher……We haven’t even seen him scratch the surface of how good he’s going to be other than a few late game no hitters that is……
Against,
Fair point. Hughes was also demoted when he didn’t get the job done.
Trish, you make it sound like Phil was handed everything on a silver platter. He was injured 2 years in a row, and then was sent to the minors, something that never happened to Joba even when he struggled. You don’t think Eiland told Joba what he needed to do? They both had a fair shot at the job in 2010 and Phil, for whatever reason, won out. I do not believe that the job was handed to him or that the Yankees cared who won the job
Rich, you said Phil was not better in 2008. That’s what you said………….and yes, it’s unfair, because Phil was hurt. In any case, though Phil was a bit of a flash in 2010 in terms of his great performances, he showed just as much as Joba (even if he wasn’t as flashy) did in 2010.
Hughes was a better pitcher period. Always has been always will be. From his stuff, to his maturity, mound demeanor, attitude and mechanics. The Yankees know it. Most fans know it.
That’s right, Betsy. Phil could not have been as good as Joba was for parts of 2008. He was sufficiently developed and doesn’t have the ridiculous stuff that Joba showed at that time.
WCRSF confuses opinion with fact.
wasn’t sufficiently
What is right, Rich? I’m disagreeing with you.
Phil is probably the only pitcher in the majors right now who had a personal bullpen catcher named Jeeves.
“Rich, you said Phil was not better in 2008. ”
This is right, Betsy. I said it. I stand by. The facts support it. Joba was unreal in 2008. If he kept that up, none of this weight nonsense would be discussed. He was showing signs of being one of the best pitchers to ever take the mound.
“Clemens would have been a good mentor for Joba before we found out about you know”
Man he would have been the best. What a shame. That’s exactly the kind of mentor that Joba needs.
**************
“I’m sorry, but I fail to see how people sleeping in boxes has anything to do with Joba.”
It was an analogy.
I didn’t say Phil was as good, I said he was hurt and it was hardly fair to compare them.
Rich, as to opinion/fact, you could say that about anyone. If you believe Joba is better than Phil, that’s opinion – it’s not fact. It’s also just an opinion (not fact) to say Phil is better. I’ve taken it on the chin for holding an opinion that Phil isn’t that good or that I don’t think he’s some stud……..well, it’s not a fact that he is that good or that he is a stud. All any of us are doing are expressing opinions…….
Rich in NJ……That was 30 pounds ago
Rich, what are you talking about ? We’re not even on the same page. Phil was hurt in 2008 and you still want to compare him to Joba. The fact that after 8 starts you are comparing him to the greatest pitchers ever leads me to believe we should drop this right now, lol
Pat M
I don’t dispute that. I’m merely pointing out how good he was, and I say that as someone who felt that Hughes would ultimately be better. But he wasn’t in 2008 and it wasn’t because of his ribs.
Betsy
I’m making a very specific point about 2008.
By the way, the fact that you said Phil wasn’t ready in 2008 (though how you judge that since he was hurt, I don’t know…….and this coming off a solid 2007) must indicate that you think he was completely rushed in 2007.
“He was showing signs of being one of the best pitchers to ever take the mound.”
He was scary good. You are absolutely right. You watched Joba like you watch a Zumaya. He was like a magician on the mound. I remember his put away pitch. Good god he was phenomenal to watch.
Everyone knew that Phil was the Yankees number one prospect but it was Joba they were breathless to watch. Two very different styles, with Joba’s being the one that gave you chills.
Damn.
I’m with Betsy, I don’t think that Joba could sustain that pace, even if he was healthy and dropped 40 lbs.
Rich, I know, and after 8 starts, I think it’s silly to compare any pitcher to the greatest ever to throw a baseball. It was silly to say Phil was an ace after his first 6 starts or even the first half of last year – people are good (including me, obviously) at overreacting.
“WCRSF confuses opinion with fact.”
Always.
M, but that’s not a Joba thing; I think 8 starts or 80 or 180 is way too small a sample size to even start thinking of those types of comparisons.
Betsy
I think it’s silly not to acknowledge how good Joba was in 2008, and 2007.
Rich, but Phil does not have Joba’s stuff or even his variety of pitches, so what made you think he’d be better? I’m really just curious……….
Betsy
Command, approach, late life on his FB,and at that time, the ability to induce groundballs.
Rich, that’s completely unfair…………….and 2007 has nothing to do with it, or we could bring up Phil’s 2009. LOL I don’t want to compare Joba circa 2008 to the greatest pitchers ever and you think I’m being unfair? That makes no sense………….He was excellent and showed great promise, but no way am I taking it to that extreme.
Back in the day, when Joba came to the mound…I had the same thought that I had when Mo comes in.
“We got this.”
There was a night in Boston… Yankee fans saw a vision of a beautiful future… while Youk ate dirt… then… Texas.
# m February 16th, 2011 at 11:12 pm
Against,
Fair point. Hughes was also demoted when he didn’t get the job done.
————————————————-
Yes he was and I think that did him some good. Unfortunately they didn’t demote Joba.
You forgot the curveball!
Rich, by what do you mean “approach”? I actually like Nova’s better than Phil’s – Nova has chutzpah, as we saw against the Jays in his debut (Phil doesn’t pitch inside and I remember once instance where he didn’t defend his teammate who’d gotten hit). He no longer has the ability to induce GB, which is extremely strange to me………..I don’t get how he changed that much as a pitcher.
M, that too, lol – he doesn’t have that curve anymore. I hope he’s not going to be concentrating on the change only this year; IMO, the curve is as or more important.
Betsy
WCRSF said:
Hughes was a better pitcher period. Always has been always will be.
__
It’s not true. I pointed that.
I think it’s fair and balanced (for real, not like…). If you don’t, fine.
It seems that everyone forgets the excitement that surrounded Joba and his finally coming up to the big dance. Everyone seems to forget that there were Joba rules. There were no Phil rules. Joba was the one who was being groomed as the Yankee phenom. Joba was electric. It doesn’t mean that Phil didn’t have great stuff or wasn’t being groomed to come up and be counted. But Joba was seen as a shooting star. That’s the kind of stuff he had.
Anyway, I don’t think the Yankees ruined Joba as I’ve heard said…….sometimes bad things happen to good pitchers (Wood and Prior as recent examples)
Against,
Agreed! That’s been my gripe. They should have sent Joba down to develop instead of knocking him down notch by notch in the majors.
Could it be because his name was Joba? (half-kidding there)
I am sorry you can’t compete on the playing ground of ideas Trisha, try harder. That’s why you are relegated to mouthing glittering generalities and meaningless cheerleading garbage.
trisha – true pinstriped blue February 16th, 2011 at 11:22 pm
“Clemens would have been a good mentor for Joba before we found out about you know”
Man he would have been the best. What a shame. That’s exactly the kind of mentor that Joba needs.
**************
Yep that would have been great for Joba. Clemens played a role in helping Schilling.
Rich is right in saying that Joba was more developed than Hughes was in ’08. Joba had 4 very good pitches-FB, SL, CB, CU. He was a monster.
Could he have sustained that, who knows.
Hughes will likely never be as good as Joba was in 2008.
What Joba showed in 2008 was special. He was striking out over 10 batters per 9 innings as a starter.
Rich, as I said, we’re not only not on the same page, we’re not in the same book, so let’s drop it ………..It doesn’t matter who was better or who is better (I don’t even have an opinion). I have doubts about both of them and hope that they both do well this year because the team needs them.
Then we’re all saying that Phil was rushed – or that he was completely overhyped.
“Yes he was and I think that did him some good. Unfortunately they didn’t demote Joba.”
A number of us were hoping that Joba would be sent back to AAA last season. Another potential benefit lost to Joba.
LGY, Phil was pretty darn special early last year…….He was never going to be the power pitcher Joba was.
Betsy,
You need to read the RAB article on phil’s CB in the second half. Night & day. Nothing to do with concentrating on the CU. Probably because he had exceeded his innings from the last year around the time he regressed.
M, his curve the last few years has always been inconsistent and Phil has said that the pitch blows hot and cold for him.
Joba’s like the kid in school who should have been held back a grade in order to learn what he hasn’t yet; however, instead he was asked to skip a grade without the necessary knowledge to succeed. They should have sent him back to the minors.
Rushed (and snapped a hammy)
Phil was never overhyped. We’ve all seen the kind of stuff he has. He’s still developing. He has great stuff and great potential.
Betsy…..Hughes was instructed by the bench to concentrate and throw fastballs with 4 quad locations for most of the season….As Labor Day rolled around he incorporated more off speed stuff and on less predictable counts…….I think we’re going to see far more of his very good breaking pitch and the change…..By June the book on Phil Hughes will look much different in 2011 than it did in 2010…….Yanks had him relearning the starting pitcher job all over again
Whatever excuses people want to make for Joba and you can include the legitimate reasons like his shoulder injury, it doesn’t matter anymore. He will never start for the Yankees and he has to prove that he can contribute pitching the sixth inning. There were many who called for him to be traded a long time ago, when his perceived value was high. Now, it’s as low as it’s ever been. Unless things change drastically, Joba will go down as a failed prospect.
“Joba’s like the kid in school who should have been held back a grade in order to learn what he hasn’t yet; however, instead he was asked to skip a grade without the necessary knowledge to succeed. They should have sent him back to the minors.”
Absolutely. What a feeling of frustration that they didn’t bother to do that.
Hughes was a good prospect too.
It’s not about ‘one or the other.’ Comparing them is silly. They’re different pitchers..
Trisha, Phil was hyped to be this super-duper pitcher, the crown jewel of the system. However, according to Tom and Rich, Joba was far superior – so if that really is the case, then Phil was overhyped. That’s all I’m saying.
“Now, it’s as low as it’s ever been. Unless things change drastically, Joba will go down as a failed prospect.”
A failed prospect never makes it in MLB.
Try again.
Tom in N.J. February 16th, 2011 at 11:41 pm
Hughes was a good prospect too.
It’s not about ‘one or the other.’ Comparing them is silly. They’re different pitchers.
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Exactly; I just was going to post the same. They and their development really have nothing to do with each other (beyond vying that once for the one SP spot.)
You can’t gauge Phil on Joba’s hot start.
Apples and oranges.
Phil is the the tortoise. Slow, but getting there.
Pat M, then I don’t get why they had him waste all of the off-season and ST on the change. Also, while I can understand trying to get his control down, are you saying they didn’t want him to throw his curve at all? That seems pretty extreme. I recall conversations on this board from early this season when people were amazed that Phil could throw his FB anywhere he wanted, but that ability gradually evaporated as the year went on. I can understand velocity diminishing, but control/command? In any case, Phil never had a problem with control, so I don’t get the Yankees here.
trisha – true pinstriped blue February 16th, 2011 at 11:40 pm
“Joba’s like the kid in school who should have been held back a grade in order to learn what he hasn’t yet; however, instead he was asked to skip a grade without the necessary knowledge to succeed. They should have sent him back to the minors.”
Absolutely. What a feeling of frustration that they didn’t bother to do that.
_______
Very frustrating.
I actually think Phil will have a better change than curve – eventually. I don’t think the curve is a pitch he really has a feel for…….
“You can’t gauge Phil on Joba’s hot start.”
The only “gauge” was to rebut the patently false statement that:
“Hughes was a better pitcher period. Always has been always will be.”
Facts matter.
“Unless things change drastically, Joba will go down as a failed prospect.”
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Joba is far from a failed prospect.
You should read this article and get some perspective on the rate of failed prospects, particularly pitchers.
http://www.royalsreview.com/20.....-prospects
Betsy, at that time in they’re development Joba had better stuff than Hughes. Hughes had spent most of ’07 and ’08 rehabbing. Hughes wasn’t over hyped; he was hurt.
Frankly, I don’t think the Yankees handled Joba or Phil very well. Joba should have been sent back down to AAA in 2008 (though since he did well before the injury, maybe that wasn’t necessary) and Phil was rushed to the bigs. It’s almost like these kids were guinea pigs.
Rich,
That was to counter Betsy’s 11:42 post.
# m February 16th, 2011 at 11:34 pm
Against,
Agreed! That’s been my gripe. They should have sent Joba down to develop instead of knocking him down notch by notch in the majors.
Could it be because his name was Joba? (half-kidding there)
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Half-kidding but maybe there is some truth to it. The Joba thing was so big that the thought of not having him on the team was considered treason. Hughes performed poorly he was sent down, Robbie didn’t hustle and he got benched, Melky wasn’t giving his all and was optioned to AAA, Kennedy struggled and was on the 1st bus to Scranton but Joba with weight issues, a lack of focus, and mechanical flaws was kept with the big club…WTF. And now when he’s a mop-up guy this is when they threaten to option him SMH.
Tom, if Joba had better stuff/pitches in the minors, then he should have received the hype that Phil did………that’s what I’m saying.
Sorry, m. My bad.
Betsy I think what happened is that Phil was scouted for a very long time and was known to the Ys organization and accepted as being part of the Yankee’s future, so his was just considered a work in progress. They always knew that he had great stuff and he was going to be a difference maker. Joba wasn’t known to the Yankees anywhere as long. He only started, I believe, in his last two years. And because he’s a power pitcher, his stuff is automatically more dynamic. So I think it’s that he more or less burst onto the scene that his name suddenly was in lights. He didn’t ease into the Yankee organization the way Phil did. They were probably both seen as potential crown jewels, but in different ways because they are very different kinds of pitchers.
I don’t think you could overhype Phil Hughes because I think his stuff is next to perfect. He’s just an amazing control pitcher. He pitches with amazing maturity. He’s still working out some kinks, but he’s earned the right because he is another pitcher who was rushed. It’s hard to know where he would be in his progress if he had had the opportunity to develop at the pace he should have.
NP. We’re all getting our wires crossed tonight.
Betsy,
Joba was in the minors for less than 5 months.
There wasn’t anytime for hype
# trisha – true pinstriped blue February 16th, 2011 at 11:36 pm
“Yes he was and I think that did him some good. Unfortunately they didn’t demote Joba.”
A number of us were hoping that Joba would be sent back to AAA last season. Another potential benefit lost to Joba.
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I wasn’t on Lohud at the time but I was hoping for the same thing. It’s not like he was setting the world on fire. But yet they threaten to option him now lol. What the hell is going on.
Betsy, Joba had less time in the minors. He was drafted in June of ’06 and was piching in the MLB in August of ’07. there really wasn’t much time to build up the hype. Joba was BA’s 3rd best prospect in ’08.
Hughes, because of the fact he was taken as a teenager, had more hype around him due to the fact he was around longer.
Trish, maybe that’s true about Joba. It doesn’t really matter at this point……I kind of think they are both overrated.
“Joba is far from a failed prospect.”
LGY. I don’t know why you even bother responding. His posts are so painfully banal.
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Against All Odds, you are probably right on about why Joba wasn’t sent down. It certainly wouldn’t have reflected well on the Yankees, and the Yankees would have been well aware of that.
Joba was in the minors for less than 5 months.
There wasn’t anytime for hype
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Unless you were a prospect hugger
I think Joba and Phil are underrated.
Phil wasn’t rushed in my opinion. Joba was rushed, but only because he was brought to the majors to relieve and not start.
LGY…..I can buy that most colorful link regarding top 100 busts far better than that hollow post earlier about heavier guys having better careers than less heavier or average weight pitchers……..Don’t know too many heavy set guys in the Hall or with Cy Young statuettes in their den……You , Face, Rich , Wave and of course CB have opened my eyes to re-evaluate and have added additional depth in how I look at the game……..
Tom, that’s a good point about Joba, but it really doesn’t explain the hype on Phil. I personally like him very much – he’s a very good kid – but I admit that I don’t see the pitcher that everyone raved about in the minors. I just see a nice pitcher on his way to a solid career.
# Betsy February 16th, 2011 at 11:42 pm
Trisha, Phil was hyped to be this super-duper pitcher, the crown jewel of the system. However, according to Tom and Rich, Joba was far superior – so if that really is the case, then Phil was overhyped. That’s all I’m saying.
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Phil wasn’t overhyped but he was pushed to the side due to injuries and Joba setting the Bronx on fire.
Jerkface, he was never supposed to be up here before September 2007, so IMO, he was rushed. What pitches did Phil have when he arrived – a developing curve and change?
Odds, I’m not talking about 2007/2008. I say he was overhyped because from his minor league career and the way people talked about him, you’d think he was this phenom. I don’t see it – and no, saying that he’s a solid pitcher is not trashing him (not saying that’s what you’re saying, but I know some people will take it that way).
Yes, Phil lost his status with fans and the Yankees after he got hurt – no doubt.
I don’t think Joba was rushed because he was brought up to relieve. The error was trying to develop his as a STARTER in the majors.
Pat M,
I am not sure about the methodology regarding that fat pitchers thing. I was really just yanking Chip’s chain posting that.
“I wasn’t on Lohud at the time but I was hoping for the same thing. It’s not like he was setting the world on fire. But yet they threaten to option him now lol. What the hell is going on.”
Wow it seems like you’ve been here forever!
I think the whole thing is just so sad. It just feels like they somehow fell asleep at the switch. It also goes into what Betsy just said.
You know Bets, the real bit*h is that we cannot unring that bell. Both players were pushed up at a faster rate than they should have been. Maybe if they had been allowed to develop the way most other players in the minors are, you wouldn’t be looking at either as overhyped. Maybe the hype was absolutely on target – but the training was not, and as a result, neither one turned into what was promised. Neither one fulfilled the promise (or at least hasn’t as of yet) and their careers at this point may have been entirely derailed because of the organization’s need to bring them up ahead of time.
It’s business yes, but I see it as a crying shame in the big picture. You have two kids who worked very hard and did everything right. And then somehow it feels like the rug was pulled out from under them. We won’t know the extent of the damage that was done and whether or not that damage is permanent – until we do.
It breaks my heart for both of them.
phil is developing just fine. he’s mr. no-stress. joba’s road has been bumpier but he’s still developing, too. these killer b’s are going to have thier struggles, too and you can bet that all 3 of them won’t make it either.
thats the way it is deveoping your own pitchers. its not a straight line of progress.
Jerkface, he was never supposed to be up here before September 2007, so IMO, he was rushed. What pitches did Phil have when he arrived – a developing curve and change?
–
There is a difference between a preferred best-case scenario: Bringing Phil up in sept 07 and real events and then being rushed.
Hughes had pitched in the minors, developed a knockout curve and a change up he had confidence in. He annihilated every level including the playoffs. He had a wHIP under 1 in the minors with a 10 k/9 2.2 BB/9 and under 7 H/9.
The Yankees would have LIKED him to sit in the minors for another year, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t ready to be in the majors. Teams, if they had a choice, would probably want to let prospects ‘over-ripen’ in the minors. As Hughes showed in Texas, he was a big league pitcher. He had everything you wanted. Ground balls, K’s, good command, an electric fastball, swing and miss curve, a change that could get strike outs.
I don’t think he hurt his leg because he was rushed, pitching in the minors wasn’t going to prepare him for trying to bury a curve deeper than normal against a major league hitter. Major league experience prepares you for that.
# Betsy February 16th, 2011 at 11:48 pm
Frankly, I don’t think the Yankees handled Joba or Phil very well. Joba should have been sent back down to AAA in 2008 (though since he did well before the injury, maybe that wasn’t necessary) and Phil was rushed to the bigs. It’s almost like these kids were guinea pigs.
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Sounds like the Yankees were in uncharted territories.
Hank speaking to Yankee Minor League Directors: Ok let me start from the top…pitchers pitch on the mound
The hype on Phil wasn’t any different than the Hype on Banuelos. The Killer B’s is the Three Amigos Redux.
THe problem is linking three prospects together as a group. Unfounded comparisons and expectations are bound to be the result.
“I think Joba and Phil are underrated.”
Interestingly enough, so do I.
Maybe Rotschild will be the one to have their true colors come shining through.
“THe problem is linking three prospects together as a group. Unfounded comparisons and expectations are bound to be the result.”
Good point.
# trisha – true pinstriped blue February 16th, 2011 at 11:56 pm
Against All Odds, you are probably right on about why Joba wasn’t sent down. It certainly wouldn’t have reflected well on the Yankees, and the Yankees would have been well aware of that.
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Yea they would have taken a hit and I think that may also play a role in why they won’t even consider moving him back. They took so much heat for every move they made. It might not be the main reason why he’s in the pen but I think it’s one of them. As crazy as it sounds he’s become more talked about that Alex.
Trish, but that said, maybe Phil would have been better had he not been hurt and same with Joba. I can’t deal with folks who blame the Yankees for “ruining” their pitchers…………Each player has to take responsibility for his career path. Joba has had issues off the field and he’s a guy who has let fame get to his head. You could have sent Joba down in 2008 to let him start there for the whole season, but it’s not like he didn’t pitch great before he was injured – so, maybe he didn’t need that seasoning. Joba is stubborn – and when Jeter has to go out to the mound to get in his face, you know that it’s bad. That is big flaw. Phil is also stubborn…he’s just subtle about it. I guess what I’ve learned is never to get attached to prospects, lol………..and also that it’s a pain in the rear to develop pitching!
M, I think the hype on Banuelos and Betances far outweights that of Joba and Phil, especially from the Yanks point of view. I never, ever heard Cashman talk about Phil like he’s talked about these 2 B’s…….and I don’t think he talked like that about Joba.
# Betsy February 17th, 2011 at 12:04 am
Odds, I’m not talking about 2007/2008. I say he was overhyped because from his minor league career and the way people talked about him, you’d think he was this phenom. I don’t see it – and no, saying that he’s a solid pitcher is not trashing him (not saying that’s what you’re saying, but I know some people will take it that way).
Yes, Phil lost his status with fans and the Yankees after he got hurt – no doubt.
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I think the hype was deserved though. He was pitching out of his mind in the minors and fans realized what the future could be with him in the rotation. And this is coming from someone who is not a Hughes guy but the hype was justified IMO
I think Joba needs more structure than Phil. Off season conditioning is one example. The Yankees should have insisted on Joba going to API or having a personal trainer who reported weekly to the Yanks. Also, more structure means not being allowed to shake off so many pitches. That seemed to bother the entire team and didn’t help his effectiveness. He’s still young, but I think he would be helped immensely by having more structure. IMHO
Betsy,
That’s my point. Phil wasn’t any more hyped than Banuelos. Phil’s being hyped is over-hyped.
Jerkface, but that TX game was one game; for all we know, had he stayed healthy, he could have been utterly mediocre after that. Even bad pitchers have games where everything is working. He ended up being ok after a tough August, but I don’t recall seeing that killer curve and change again. In any case, that was 3 years ago……and Phil does not have that curve and he doesn’t have the change. His FB is good, but electric? I’ll let others decide…….and he does not throw ground balls.
By the way, I have never blamed his injuries on being rushed – things happen, unfortunately.
“for all we know, had he stayed healthy, he could have been utterly mediocre after that.”
?????
Hype doesn’t bother me one way or another. You have to prove your ability on the field. It really shouldn’t bother professionals either. I haven’t given up on Joba, and I am still not completely convinced that Phil is the real deal, either. They are still so young. Lets see what the next three years bring. If they are consistent (good or bad) for that period of time, then we will have a LOT better idea of how much they can contribute.
Jerkface, but that TX game was one game; for all we know, had he stayed healthy, he could have been utterly mediocre after that. Even bad pitchers have games where everything is working. He ended up being ok after a tough August, but I don’t recall seeing that killer curve and change again. In any case, that was 3 years ago……and Phil does not have that curve and he doesn’t have the change. His FB is good, but electric? I’ll let others decide…….and he does not throw ground balls.
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He did throw ground balls, in 07 and the minors. Thats my point. He is a different pitcher now than he was when he came up in 07 due to injury and an inability to continue development due to injury. And yea HE COULD HAVE BEEN BAD, but he kicked ass in the minors, came up and kicked ass in the SAME MANNER in the majors and then was fine in September 07.
He really just wasn’t rushed, he had nothing else to learn at the minor league level. Pitchers like him don’t need AAA.
M, I think Phil was hyped by “experts”, publications, etc…………but Banuelos has been more hyped by the Yankees (outwardly, at least). Banuelos is getting attention, but nothing like I think Phil got in the minors.
Odds, we’ll see in the next year or two if the hype was justified. Some guys do better than they did in the minors (Cano, Mattingly) and others don’t do as well.
egos and blame. At least Sanchez is fine.
Some kids, and some employees, as well as some players (who may be both) need more structure than others. Nothing wrong with treating them different.
but I don’t recall seeing that killer curve and change again.
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Being out for months might have something to do with it. And being injured in his plant leg. It took him a while to get his confidence back and the stress fracture to his rib didn’t help.
Fact is, Hughes debuting in 07 was a prospect that could handle the majors, he simply wasn’t rushed. He had everything you’d want. And mediocre starters can throw good games, but they don’t have the track record of success nor do they have the type of dominance Hughes had.
A guy like Darrel Rasner can throw a gem, but watching his games you don’t think ‘wow this guy has a bright future!’ There is a layer of subtle peril to every pitch thrown. Hughes dominated the Rangers after his rough but still acceptable cold weather debut in april.
# trisha – true pinstriped blue February 17th, 2011 at 12:05 am
“I wasn’t on Lohud at the time but I was hoping for the same thing. It’s not like he was setting the world on fire. But yet they threaten to option him now lol. What the hell is going on.”
Wow it seems like you’ve been here forever!
I think the whole thing is just so sad. It just feels like they somehow fell asleep at the switch. It also goes into what Betsy just said.
You know Bets, the real bit*h is that we cannot unring that bell. Both players were pushed up at a faster rate than they should have been. Maybe if they had been allowed to develop the way most other players in the minors are, you wouldn’t be looking at either as overhyped. Maybe the hype was absolutely on target – but the training was not, and as a result, neither one turned into what was promised. Neither one fulfilled the promise (or at least hasn’t as of yet) and their careers at this point may have been entirely derailed because of the organization’s need to bring them up ahead of time.
It’s business yes, but I see it as a crying shame in the big picture. You have two kids who worked very hard and did everything right. And then somehow it feels like the rug was pulled out from under them. We won’t know the extent of the damage that was done and whether or not that damage is permanent – until we do.
It breaks my heart for both of them.
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Excellent post Trisha. The development of both kids have been affected by the Yankees. We all understand that it’s not easy to develop and compete but if the Yankees are going to continue to push the WS or bust mantra than they have to expect their prospects to struggle or regress at some point. The problem is their won’t be a change to that philosophy sure we’ll continue to see young players get a shot but we also know that if expectations aren’t met than their development will suffer.
…and i’m buying dadiniowa’s joba stock and i’m buying any stock betsy still had in joba…
he’s my boy now…
Face…..There have been only a few guys who dominated the Minor Leagues like Hughes did, but in the end it was all the unbelievable injuries that the big club sustained in 07 that made it necessary to call Phil up…..As I mentioned earlier, had it not been for the setbacks in 07-08 he could be sitting at 60 + wins already
Jerkface, I also remember CB saying that Phil won’t be a GB pitcher in the majors because his FB “rises” and hitters can’t get on top of it – or something like that. Maybe he got GBs in the minors because he just overmatched hitters – like he can’t do up here.
So the injuries did set him back – and possibly permanently in terms of his ceiling right now. So don’t we have to adjust expectations? Did those 2 years truly cost him as much as it appears they did – aside from just the lost development? I would not say, also, that he kicked ass in the majors in 2007. That was one game……….. He was good in September, but it’s not like he blew people away. Lots of people wanted to trade him for Santana because they didn’t think he was the same pitcher they’d seen in the minors.
I think you make good points, but I still tend to agree with Randy on this.
enough of this babying crap, get them up and see what they have.
burt blyleven pitched in the majors a couple of months after he graduated hs
. Maybe if they had been allowed to develop the way most other players in the minors are, you wouldn’t be looking at either as overhyped.
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Look at the top pitchers in baseball, many of them didn’t spend a lot of time in the minors. Especially the ‘young guys’, Felix Hernandez, Clayton Kershaw, Tim Lincecum, etc.
Jerkface, I also remember CB saying that Phil won’t be a GB pitcher in the majors because his FB “rises” and hitters can’t get on top of it – or something like that. Maybe he got GBs in the minors because he just overmatched hitters – like he can’t do up here.
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he said that post like last year when Hughes was a major flyball pitcher. Look at the Texas game, he threw a heavy 2 seam fastball and was able to get a couple of key double plays with the pitch. He had 8 GB and only 3 fly balls in the entire texas start. After that he wasn’t the same.
And Betsy, to bring it full circle you can also ask whether their being pushed too fast contributed to their getting hurt!
I don’t have as much difficulty with thinking that some moves the organization made were definitely not healthy for the lives of their pitchers. Rushing a pitcher up is an obvious one. And I think it is the opposite – the team is the one responsible for the development of a player’s career path and not vice versa. They are making all of the decisions on exactly what is going to happen with each pitcher, their workout routine, numbers of innings pitched, situations in which they come in, etc. I don’t think the Yankees found themselves in a very uneasy position in 2008. They had been taking endless criticism for what they were spending on the team, and Brian Cashman had talked publicly about developing from within. He was in the biggest no win situation of his career that year. So to fill the four and five gaps, they rushed their players up well before they were ready. The results were obvious.
What did that do to mess with the natural development of a young pitcher? Well we know for sure it wasn’t optimal! And perhaps for organization ego reasons, while Phil was at least given the opportunity to continue in his development down below, Joba was not. Has that hurt Joba a lot? I would have to believe it has hurt his development.
I still think they are both excellent pitchers with a ton of potential. It will be a joy to see if Rothschild can work some magic and get them both entirely back on course.
I refuse to remain anything but hopeful. I will go to bed with my fingers and toes crossed.
I think it’s time to sign off from the east coast! Thanks for the great discussion gang. Sleep well and remember our kids in your prayers.
Maybe Phil would’ve stubbed his toe in a minor league shower if he’d stayed in the minors for even one more start and his whole career could’ve gone down the drain.
It’s not a very illustrative game.
Injuries set Hughes back, you can adjust expectations as you see fit. I think Hughes is going to be a top flight pitcher, but it has taken/will take him longer because of those injuries. Doesn’t mean he is going to be a mediocrity or whatever you think.
And it certainly doesn’t mean he was rushed.
Developing in SF and Seattle is a lot different from the Bronx. But the point is well taken. Kennedy and Ohlendorf are two guys who’ve moved on and are on their way to living up to their projection.
That should have read “I think the Yankees found themselves in a very uneasy position in 2008″
Jerkface, yes I’m well aware of what those leg injuries cost Phil in 2007….Yes, his debut against the Jays was fine. In any case, I don’t really believe in looking back and “what if”ing myself to death. The fact is, here we are in 2011 and I think this is a big year for Phil – a pivot year, in a way. If he’s going to be the kind of pitcher people thought he’d be, he’s going to show flashes now – he has to. He’s not old, but he’s not a baby anymore. He has to throw his breaking pitches with consistency, he has to put hitters away and he has to not give up so many HRs (not sure he’ll ever be a GB pitcher again)
# Betsy February 17th, 2011 at 12:19 am
M, I think Phil was hyped by “experts”, publications, etc…………but Banuelos has been more hyped by the Yankees (outwardly, at least). Banuelos is getting attention, but nothing like I think Phil got in the minors.
Odds, we’ll see in the next year or two if the hype was justified. Some guys do better than they did in the minors (Cano, Mattingly) and others don’t do as well.
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I guess we will see if Phil fulfills his destiny
“I think Joba needs more structure than Phil. Off season conditioning is one example. The Yankees should have insisted on Joba going to API or having a personal trainer who reported weekly to the Yanks. Also, more structure means not being allowed to shake off so many pitches. That seemed to bother the entire team and didn’t help his effectiveness. He’s still young, but I think he would be helped immensely by having more structure. IMHO”
Absolutely agree.
Betsy,
What have the Yankees said about Banuelos that makes you say they have hyped him up way more than Phil?
Jerkface, right, but we don’t have a Delorean and a flux capacitor to help us get back to 2007. I think they should scrap the cutter and let him get back to throwing a 2 seamer. YS is no help to him so he needs to adjust to it.
Having read most of the posts tonight, it seems to me that there is something of a clean slate with a new pitching coach who can form his own opinions and give these guys a different prospective on their work. Hughes obviously ‘got it’ sooner than Joba, and may be the better pitcher forever, but there is an opportunity now for Joba to receive the help he seems to need.
The Killer B’s are hyped here day in and day out, and as someone said they too will have their ups and downs….hopefully many more ups than downs.
I think we have to give Rothschild a chance to work with all the pitchers and to get the best out of each one. Hopefully, he is the man to do it.
Hughes has shown flashes of greatness in 09 and 10, everyone has seen it.
Against really hasn’t been here all that long. That should be ‘ful-philled’
LGY, have you heard the comments from Cash on both Betances and Banuelos? He gushes about them……..whereas I recall Cash always trying to put a damper on expectations about Phil, here he’s encouraging expectations about these kids
Not willing to give up my Joba stock yet. I remain cautiously optimistic about every Yankee, young or old. I think we are going to surprise a lot of pundits this year and win number 28. A great lineup, good to great defense, a bit of speed, and a good mix of youth and experience. If we can stay relatively healthy, we are not going to be good…… we are going to be very good or great.
SAS, I have a really good feeling about Rothschild…….
# m February 17th, 2011 at 12:33 am
Against really hasn’t been here all that long. That should be ‘ful-philled’
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lol I was going to do something similar to that but thought let me just keep it straight laced
SAS, did you see my last reply to you last night. I was completely teasing. If I made you feel bad, I am sorry
In my teasing mode last night, I think I managed to make two of my favorite posters (Erica and SAS) mad at me. I better stop trying to be cute.
Betsy,
The only thing I heard that I assume you are referring to is Cashman saying Betances may be their best pitching prospect ever.
You have to understand where Cashman is coming from. As much notoriety as the B’s are getting, it is nowhere close to what was surrounding Hughes. The hype around Hughes was out of control.
He was being compared to Roger Clemens from Day 1 in ST.
Betsy, I do too. I would feel more confident if he had been more successful in Chicago.
Good night guys it’s been fun
LGY, no -that’s not what I’m referring to. It’s just the overall tone of his quotes – I don’t recall him ever speaking like that about Phil (or Joba).
Maybe Phil threw overly hard in that in that one ST, but Giambi and Po were the only ones to compare him to Clemens; it was a ridiculous comparison…………but then again, I don’t think it’s fair to compare young, unproven players to great players. I do think Phil was overhyped, that has been my point all along – just not necessarily by the Yankees.
Dad, he can only work with the material that he has…….and that staff did lead the NL in Ks and walks (meaning they didn’t walk a lot of hitters) for 7 straight years or something like that.
if you start out with 2 front of the rotation prospects and you get one top of the rotation pitcher out of it, you’ve done well, anything extra is gravy.
phil is on his way and joba is gravy (on cheese fries!)
We live in a much more minor league focused baseball world at the moment. You’re just going to have to deal with top prospects getting top press.
To call someone your best pitching prospect maybe ever is high praise (i.e. Hype) indeed.
Gone are the days of players surprising the world when they enter the grand stage.
Betsy….Phillip Hughes was so over hyped that when he pitched for our Connie Mack Summer team the bleachers at Tewinkle Park was filled with at least 25 Scouts and College coaches……And this was as a 15 year old
“Jerkface February 17th, 2011 at 12:48 am
We live in a much more minor league focused baseball world at the moment. You’re just going to have to deal with top prospects getting top press.”
yeah, when mattingly came upin 83 it was like, ‘who’s this guy?’ he left a bunch of people on base opening day and people bood him. (he ended up being sent back down.) some people had heard his name maybe, but basically you didnt know squat about anyone in the minors till they showed up in the bronx.
You’re right Betsy. Hopefully this year his staff can lead the league in wins, ERA, and post season wins.
Pat M, can you tell when a kid (granted, 15 isn’t exactly a “kid” anymore) has major league potential?
Betsy…..You can start to determine when a HS age player has that special potential when he separates himself from the other players who play in an elite league……Such as the Connie Mack select summer leagues…..I had both Phil, Ian Kennedy and Ian Stewart on the same team one summer and I could tell that they had something special…….Those Connie Mack summer teams were made up with the best HS ballplayers in Orange County CA…….Hank Conger ( catcher / switchitting Angels ) had that special something…….Same thing for Austin Romine, Gerrit Cole although I never coached either of them…..They had pro skills
Pat M, thanks! RAB had a picture recently on their site of a much younger Andy Pettitte with a much, MUCH younger Colby Rasmus – really kind of a neat thing.
Well, for all the talk of hype and stuff, it’s going to be fun watching Phil, Joba and the other kids do their thing.
Good stuff tonight – good night!
this article about how fat are the yankees made me laugh:
http://online.wsj.com/article/.....71882.html
Dad,
I did see your remarks. No problem here.
Good night all
Ys Guy…..Great article, CC actually looks like he dropped some lbs…..
Well the last call was made about an hour ago so it appears that The LoHud is calling it a night……Good Night all and good morning to all the good morning people……..Lots of good stuff tonight with little hostility once we got on a roll…….
Just watched the pilot of The Secret Life of the American Teenager. It was awful…yet hilarious. You want a good laugh and an awful plot, this show’s got it all.
m
I love that show. Its like a train wreck, awful but you can’t stop looking. I am addicted to it.
Good morning, morning people and good morning m!
Quite the discussion last night. Though there was some I would pointedly disagree with, it was a good discussion.
The only thing is, I think the passage of time has colored the way some events are remembered. Kind of like “The Way We Were.” Has time rewritten every line?
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I missed Nick Swisher last night! I am so mad at myself. I was ready to watch it all day, and then my husband got home from his trip and we were talking and I completely forgot. Gonna have to see if it’s up on the “internets” today.
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I hope the tone of last night carries through today (though I hope the subject matter is anything but Joba).
m and tyanksfan -
Is that the show that was getting some negative press? The British import?
I can’t believe you guys slept already.
So, yeah. Molina’s pretty funny. The main girl’s puking. And the freshman thinks he’s in love. It is cheesy, and I can’t turn my eyes.
I just googled it. Nope. Not the one I was thinking of.
Doreen, no! That’s Skins. This is ABC FAMILY and it’s everything but family values.
It’s got Molly Ringwold. She actually looks better.
m -
My husband was up early – left the house for work at 5:30 maybe? I heard him clunking around downstairs, so I got up slightly after 5. It was only an hour early.
m -
Oh, okay. Now I know the one you mean. I haven’t watched it, but I think my daughter (the one who’s living on her own) has. I remember seeing promos with Molly Ringwald and thinking I should check it out.
Skins. That’s the one. A columnist who I respect in my local paper (she does a Sunday opinion piece) sat down to watch Skins expecting the worst and she said it’s nowhere near as bad as what she heard it would be.
m –
Speaking of being up, what are you doing up at this hour?
I saw Skins on the Netflix instant queue and I grilled my daughter thinking it was like … you know. But it turned out to be the non-controversial controversy.
About last night, I just had to butt in when it was turning into a socio-economic thing. It did end up to be a good conversation, though.
m
It only gets cheesier. You’ll find yourself wishing the episodes were longer and saying “is it really over? Nothing happened” This past season was a riot. Its all a huge PSA and extremely corny.
Hi all. A quick good morning while I have computer access.
Nick Swisher was barely on BWY
m -
I was glad you did butt in. I was lurking, and happy that others shared a bit of my point of view so I didn’t have to hop in.
I’m being worn down by the Lohud – weariness of repetition is setting in. I’ve been here too long. 4 years is too long. There isn’t an argument or discussion that hasn’t been replayed countless times.
That’s fine – new people join the discussion and sometimes a fresh point of view is uncovered, though not enough. What troubles me at times is the extent to which people dig in their heels. Oh, well.
Kind of silly to complain, because, well, here I am — again! Gotta laugh at myself.
is it worth looking back for the convo? the few times I was able to peek in yesterday there was a lot of bickering…sounds like everyone has cabin fever
Doreen,
I’m so sad. The other day I was trying to figure out when I showed up here. I couldn’t figure it out. I can remember as far back as when you and I almost gave up on the team, but stuck with them. I can remember Alex opting out. I can remember Joba mania. But I don’t know what came first. The years have been blending together.
upstate kate -
The bickering kept me away for the most part yesterday during the day. But the conversation in the night hours was more civil, even if it was yet another discussion of Joba/Phil.
m -
I know for me it was November of 2006. And you were right there, either at the same time, or right after.
There are a few of us still here, and probably some who lurk and don’t post anymore.
***
I have to get daughter up for school. Later.
From last night……I don’t think you can call Joba a bust at all. He’s in the big leagues, he does contribute, and he still has upside. True he hasn’t reached expectations yet but so few prospects actually do……Drew Henson is a bust.
Also, pitching to contact is ok if you have weapons that create weak contact or outs on a very regular basis……sinker, changeup, etc. Joba and AJ aren’t really those type pitchers…..they need to attack and strikeout as many as they can. Hopefully Rothschild gets them back to that. Baseball games are coming…..yay!
I wouldn’t feel too sorry for Joba being made a middle reliever. He is making a ton of money this year compared to an average person, and once he gets past team control if pitching even just decently he’ll make more in one year than most people do in their entire careers. It’s not like if he’s not a starter he’s in the bread line.
CC was probably thankful everyone moved on from talk about his opt out to talk about Joba.
Joba is probably thinking, when is Alex showing up?
I caught Swish’s acting last night. He was very convincing playing Nick Swisher as a left fielder.
The funny thing with Nick is both of the cameos he’s done now he’s played a toned down version of himself because if he played the real version of him the director would think he was over-acting.
The funny thing with Nick is both of the cameos he’s done now he’s played a toned down version of himself because if he played the real version of him the director would think he was over-acting.
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Really funny. Cause it’s true.
Velocity or injury aside, it still comes down to Chamberlain learning how to repeat his mechanics. Unless Larry Rothschild is able to teach him to do it, he joins Ron Guidry and Dave Eiland as pitching coaches who couldn’t get through to him how important it is.
David Wells had weight issues for most of his career but repeating his pitching mechanics was the biggest factor to his success.
I love the way Pat puts things in the proper perspective. Always works for me!
Anybody who calls Joba a “bust” either is dumb or doesn’t understand the meaning of the world.
NOBODY, not even HOF’ers, could have lived up to the excessive expectations and attention the kid had in NY.
It was definitely too much too soon.
That said, there is still plenty of time for him to have a productive and profitable big league career.
It starts with good health. That, not the Yankees, the hype, or any pitching coach, is what set Joba back.
All you have to do is look at his pre-injury numbers and pitching charts to see that. It’s as plain as day.
If he’s healthy, then it’s about execution of pitches and mechanics.
Not everybody develops or has their career go on one upward path.
Calling him a “bust”? Just more nonsense from some reactionary fans.
upstate kate February 17th, 2011 at 6:45 am
Hi all. A quick good morning while I have computer access.
Nick Swisher was barely on BWY
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I believe he is on again next week
kate and Erica-Swish is on again next week, and from what I understand has a much bigger role than he did last night.
Sometimes players don’t live up to expectations, but that’s a LONG way away from calling them a bust…………….
http://online.wsj.com/article/.....lenews_wsj
Apparently the Yankees could have one of the fattest pitching staffs ever………… I’m not quite sure this is fair because they also have very tall pitchers.
Well, I think I better set my DVR for next week’s BWY.
Expectations mean nothing.
A successful players plays up to potential not expectations.
Erin-
I hope he has a bigger role next week.
I was making fun of him last night for having to do a run through of his one line
Expectations for Joba this season should be for him to be a reliable reliever and for him to become more proficient at repeating his delivery…..both of those things are attainable and if he can do it he will make the Yankees better……. that’s all that matters at the end if the day.
betsy, i spotted that article last night, they had to say its the fattest team ever b/c nobody would read it if if said they were probably the tallest yankees team ever.
them are some big boys….
i just cant get blakek and bojo to sell me thier joba….
SI_JonHeyman Joba chamberlain claims he’s in “better shape.” I’d sooner believe is a lion tamer, cia operative or national merit scholar.
Twitter has quickly devolved into a wonderful medium for people to say things that they would never say to someone face to face……
Erica-LOL
It was pretty funny though- “I think he’s dead, bro!”
Ys,
if Joba is to be compared to the rest of middle relievers in baseball then I would buy Joba stock…..not sell it. He’s probably the most talented 6th or 7th inning pitcher in baseball.
need live games… joba OUT two days ago… seeing a simple arc from a swinging bat and the sound of baseball popping into a mitt would be nice.
c’mon blake, give it up, that joba stock’s not worth the paper it’s printed on! did you see how fat he is?
im doing you a favor offering to take it off your hands, theres no money to be made there.
im only doing this because i know it’d kill ol’ harlan in the wheelchair to see his stock drop so low.
all you neihbors have sold me thier stock….
Ah Twitter, a place where a national sports writer can call somebody a fat liar without consequence.
Tom….and then we are supposed to take him seriously when we read his columns……
This would be bad…..
espn 2011 Spring Training: Miguel Cabrera of Detroit Tigers reportedly arrested on DUI charge in Florida – http://es.pn/fIZBO7
Come on Miggy……you just got things turned around.
Ys Guy you can buy my Joba stock
Yikes, I hope Cabrera gets help:
“According to the arrest report, Cabrera smelled of alcohol, had slurred speech and took a swig from a bottle of Scotch in front of a deputy. Police say Cabrera repeatedly refused to cooperate, saying, “Do you know who I am, you don’t know anything about my problems.”
very sad about cabrera. just goes to show you that all that money and adulation doesnt make for a happy man.
he is so great on the ballfield but cant seem to get it together off the field.
good luck to him, i hope he gets help.
I think Joba needs more structure than most players. e.g. Yankees could have a personal trainer monitor his off-season workouts and weight, they could fine him for shaking off too many pitches. I know its treating him different than most, but he is unique and perhaps would benefit from more structure.
hmmm…I guess Miggy would not be a good fantasy baseball choice
If Cabrera wants to get pis’s drunk then by all means, just don’t drive.
LOVE it keep that joba stock coming boys and girls. just think of me as your guardian angel saving
you from that fat lazy middle reliever who is trying to ruin your retirement.
New Post: Sabathia throws second bullpen
kate, ignore that, he’s still going in the top 5 on any good draft.
I hope Cabrera gets straightened out. He really is so talented.
Kate, I had Cabrera going in the 1st round. Guess I’ll re-think that.
OK thanks, I need all the tips I can get!
Y’s Guy – because I am known to have great compassion and to promote the needs of others over my own, I am going to do you a huge favor. And there is no need to thank me. They say goodness is its own reward. I am going to take your Joba stock off your hands.
Stock please.
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Dad, it doesn’t happen everywhere, but the best run and most productive organizations are those that recognize that employees are not cookie cutter and that there are different needs that when met can only enhance the bottom line. The Yankees are more than able to find ways to deal with unique situations. The question is whether they are so wrapped up in the assembly-line, lockstep of the way baseball operates that they cannot see the forest for the trees in this one. Sometimes critical needs go unmet merely because they are not recognized as such. It’s like a teacher with 50 kids in class. That person likely focuses on the bottom line day to day and may not recognize that there is a student in class who, with a little coaxing and a different approach, could blossom and turn out to be the best student in class.
But since the Yankees are more private than public school in their reputation, I have to believe they are not just not cutting edge when it comes to thinking outside of the box. They are great at what they do, but there are some things they don’t seem to do. I think that they are so used to being elite that the thought of an ACTIVE sport psychologist on staff is something that they probably think isn’t a necessity. I can’t remember which team it is in the majors, but I remember reading about one that uses sports psychology as a routine! That’s just an example of being creative with your players.
Off to conquer the world. Later y’all.
The raging Joba debate continues. If Joba is lights out as a 5th or 6th inning guy perhaps he will be given another opportunity to start or pitch in more meaningful situations. If he pitches well and doesn’t get another opportunity in NY then at least his stock will rise and he may then have some trade value. If he is inconsistent his career will be an afterthought.
I believe that his destiny lies in his own hands.
I think that Joba may have lost velocity on the fastball after the injury in Texas because Dave Eiland changed his mechanics in the Spring of 2009.
When Joba first came up and was throwing 97-99 out of the bullpen, I remember the YES announcers talking about how Nardi Contraras had made some mechanical adjustments to Joba’s delivery that resulted in a few more MPH on the fastball. When Joba was a starter during 2008, he was consistently in the 94-97MPH range, which for a starter is elite.
After the injury, in the spring of 2009, I remember reading in this blog that Dave Eiland was working with Joba to “smooth out his mechanics” to prevent future injuries, and Joba was barely hitting 90 on the gun. If you watch Joba in 2009-2010 and compared his motion to when he came up, his arm angle is lower and he doesn’t look as explosive. I wonder if Eiland made enough mechanical changes to rob Joba of some velocity and bite on the slider.
It sounds like Rothchild is looking at how Joba threw when he came up, and he’s talked about the ball coming out of Joba’s hand really nicely when he’s “throwing downhill”. If it were up to me, the first thing I’d try to do is return his mechanics to their 2007 version, and it sounds like that may be taking place.
If we see much better stuff from Joba this year compared to the past few years, we can blame Eiland. If not, it may have just been the injury in Texas.