Thursday notes: Girardi staying involved behind the plate
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Notes on Feb 17, 2011 
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Yesterday, just as the bullpens and catching drills were breaking up, Joe Girardi and Tony Pena stayed behind with Jesus Montero, slightly tweaking the way he squats. They seemed to be working on Montero’s base, getting his feet just slightly farther apart.
When someone told Girardi it was time for Montero’s group to taking batting practice, Girardi responded instantly.
“I know he can hit,” Girardi said.
A little defensive work was, for the moment, a priority.
During the day, Girardi bounces around a little bit. He spends time watching pitchers in the bullpen, but he’s also been involved in a few of Pena’s infamous — and occasionally brutal — catching drills. Today, Girardi specifically did some work with Russell Martin.
“Tony told me he was going to do some things with him today that I wanted to see,” Girardi said. “It’s just the importance of that relationship, getting to know him better, understanding what he’s all about and what makes him tick. Just trying to get a better grasp on the player.
“You think about the responsibility the catcher has, he’s responsible for a lot of guys. He’s responsible for 12 pitchers and himself, and you kind of want him to be an extension of what we’re trying to do here. That relationship is important.”
• Speaking of Martin, although he’s not quite 100 percent right now, the Yankees are expecting no restrictions when the season starts. “He hasn’t shown me anything physically right now that won’t allow us to play him every day,” Girardi said.
• As of right now, no plan is in place for when Mariano Rivera will finally get in a game. “I don’t have an exact date,” Girardi said. “Larry (Rothschild) is going to sit down and give us an exact date of when he’ll throw. He usually gets in a game sometime around the 15th, maybe a little before.”
• Speaking of Rivera: “He picked a good day to come,” Girardi said. “Today is our first off-day from running.”
• In theory, having Rafael Soriano could ease Rivera’s workload, but Girardi said he’s planning to treat his closer the same as ever. Three days in a row is not out of the question with Rivera, not like it is with most other relievers. “I’ll continue to treat Mo the same,” Girardi said.
• With room for only one long reliever, the Yankees might try to stretch out some of their one-inning relievers this spring. “That’s something you might see guys do a little in spring training, where we ask them to get more than three outs and we stretch them out a little bit,” Girardi said. “You’d like to have a couple guys who can give you multiple innings, so that’s something we’ll have to look at and see how they respond to it.”
• According to Girardi, Phil Hughes’ increased workload might have contributed to his shaky second half. “I don’t realty have a whole lot of concern about that,” Girardi said. “I think part was maybe the increased innings, but I saw what he did the last few starts, which were pretty good. The start against Boston, the start against Minnesota, those were pretty good starts. He seemed to bounce back. That’s one of the reasons we do put limitations on them, because you worry about fatigue.”
• Once a highly touted pitching prospect in the Yankees system, right-hander Christian Garcia was released last season after a series of injuries derailed his promising career. The Yankees are aware that Garcia, 25, has been working out and plans to throw for scouts, but I was told today that the Yankees have no plans of bringing Garcia back to the organization.
• For those of you interested in such things, Brandon Laird’s locker has been moved to the middle of the clubhouse, filling the spot that was supposed to go to Reegie Corona. He was assigned a wall locker near the door. This “news” has no impact on anything, just thought I’d share.
• Yogi Berra will be in camp at some point next week.
Associated Press photos: Girardi with Martin, Rivera stretching, Curtis Granderson and Greg Golson at the minor league complex
Wat are those skirts they’re wearing?
Photo caption contest!
Photo #1:
Girardi: “You kids have it so easy nowadays. When I was young, we actually were so poor that we would have to boil and eat these gloves. “
Love the picture of Mo.
Golson looks like he’s wearing a skirt. lol
ha ha-trisha we had the same thought!
They’re Scots for the Day…and wearing kilts.
The last drill of the day was Brett Gardner bunting under the watchful eyes of Kevin Long and Mick Kelleher. In the vicinity of 50-60 bunts down each line.
With his speed, he should be able to leg out anther 20+ hits over the course of the season.
Trisha and Erin,
They could have at least worn panty hose with their skirts
Fran –
Fran the original February 17th, 2011 at 3:36 pm
Trisha and Erin,
They could have at least worn panty hose with their skirts
____________________
What makes you think they are not?
108
what else did you get to see?
Fran-LOL
Chad–
Thanks for following up on Christian Garcia….that’s a sad follow up…Too bad.
Fran -
I got the iMac.
I bought it and they helped me set up a few things right in the store. They took about an hour with me. It was a great experience.
The ONLY thing is that in order to transfer my data, I have to bring the computer to the store along with the source data (on an external hard drive AND a laptop). That’s not going to be fun. But they will meet me at the front of the mall and help me carry the computer at least that far.
BTW–that Donnie Collins is going to be some good beat writer some day. I love reading his stuff.
Doreen, I think there are online programs where you can buy the software and transfer stuff yourself, not that you want to get into that.
Trisha -
They’re not wearing skirts. They have shorts on, and it looks as if golson has a sweetshirt tied around his waist. Maybe he’s had a bit of Scotch.
Girardi has his faults (who doesn’t?)and his favorites (again who doesn’t?), but I love his energy and work ethic.
Great stuff. Thanks, Chad.
Oh. I guess I don’t have enough resolution on my monitor.
Tricia….I just read that piece on the previous thread about Joba and how the Yanks mistreated him ??? Who wrote this piece is what I like to know ???? Some truth in this however it rings hollow for the most part…..Here’s the bottom line, if many of us are still here at The LoHud in let’s say 3-4 years and if Joba doesn’t reverse the course he’s on, he could be out of the game by then….Or he’ll be the guy who accepts a minor league deal
Trisha -
Or were you just hoping to see something new, lol.
I don’t see Girardi as having favorites at all. I think he is pretty scientific in his treatment of his players.
m-
Joe understands the importance of getting the team off to a fast start in the AL East…he always has team prepped to go the distance. Even when people go nuts because he rests players, he is looking long-term. IMO, he is a great manager.
Doreen,
I am excited for you. Enjoy it.
Let me know how you like it.
My project this weekend is the Apple Store, PC Richards and Best Buy. Have to make a decision.
Congrats Doreen and welcome to the cutting edge.
Three days in a row is not out of the question with Rivera, not like it is with most other relievers. “I’ll continue to treat Mo the same,” Girardi said.
I’m sure having Soriano will make three days in a row unlikely, hopefully. Mariano is 41 and Girardi is careful about not over-using his pen and I’m sure he will be extra careful with Mo.
Pat M – the writer’s name is Eric Mack.
I don’t see anything that rings hollow.
I agree that the bottom line is that things have to change for Joba. As far as reversing the course he’s on, that’s what pitching coaches are for. They’re paid to do more than stand there and watch.
How about the Alabama fan that poisoned the two 120 year old trees on Auburns campus…..unbelievable. Anybody wanna paint pinstripes on the Green Monster?
Pat M. -
In the past I’ve be critical of Joba myself, but, if he truly has been working hard this off season, and has found something in his delivery that will help him, then I’m for giving him a chance to show everyone they were wrong about him.
Joba does have talent, and I for one would love to see that talent rise to the top as a Yankee.
YankeesPR: Congrats to @YESNetwork on their 46 New York Emmy nominations
“Joe understands the importance of getting the team off to a fast start in the AL East…he always has team prepped to go the distance. Even when people go nuts because he rests players, he is looking long-term. IMO, he is a great manager.”
Totally agree Bojo.
“Joba does have talent, and I for one would love to see that talent rise to the top as a Yankee.”
Yes.
Joe Girardi is far from being a great manager. He took the foot off the pedal last year and cost the Yankees more than a few games IMO. Having home field advantage might have meant something.
“Anybody wanna paint pinstripes on the Green Monster?”
I wouldn’t insult pinstripes that way!
When Girardo was starting what was basically a AAA lineup at times, there were actually fans last year who said that those games were unimportant.
Here’s the good thing about Rothschild. He has no favorites. He’s here for everybody.
LOL
BryanHoch So Jeter kinda played the outfield today, then? http://bit.ly/h17VyS
I also like hearing new guys say that it’s harder and more regimented than expected.
trisha – true pinstriped blue February 17th, 2011 at 3:56 pm
“Anybody wanna paint pinstripes on the Green Monster?”
I wouldn’t insult pinstripes that way!
________________
WCYF – there were factors at play other than Girardi’s whims.
First, it was acknowledged by Brian Cashman that holding back starters was an organizational decision.
Second, that decision was not made on a whim, rather, it appeared to be dictated by several of the players having injuries. Tex’ multiple injuries throughout the season – wrist, knee, foot – were best documented. Additionally, Alex had hip problems; Jeter hurt his hand/wrist (can’t remember which) early in the year (May?), which affected his swing and started him on his slide; Swish with his leg problems; Posada; Gardner with his wrist. So that the logic at work was to sacrifice the division title, in order to have guys as ready as possible for the post season.
One may argue the pros and cons of that decision. However, to believe that Joe was acting on his own, with regard to other factors – many of which did not receive great play at the time – falsely portrays the real situation at the time.
“Joe Girardi is far from being a great manager. He took the foot off the pedal last year and cost the Yankees more than a few games IMO. Having home field advantage might have meant something.”
*****************************************************
Girardi did not take his foot off the pedal last season. He had a banged up team that he had to try and get through the season with, and had to work with what talent he had available.
Yes, he could have pushed his players harder, and perhaps won the division, and home field, but, what if doing that exasperated those injuries, and he lost key players for the post season.
I don’t know all the facts, and neither do you, and unless you have an inside working knowledge of what was transpiring inside the Yankees clubhouse, your assessment is without merit.
Joe Girardi is far from being a great manager. He took the foot off the pedal last year and cost the Yankees more than a few games IMO. Having home field advantage might have meant somethin
****
What current MLB managers do you think are great?
“Rothschild already has a level of familiarity with Yankees manager Joe Girardi, a veteran catcher on the Cubs in 2002, Rothschild’s first season as the team’s pitching coach.
‘He is above all else an excellent teacher, who brings a professional attitude and a keen sense of preparation to his craft,’ Girardi said in a statement.
Cashman likened the decision to that faced by NFL teams looking for a defensive coordinator. In that sense, he chose a former head coach in Rothschild.
‘He comes with an impressive résumé as a former major-league manager and a world champion pitching coach (with the 1997 Marlins),’ Cashman said in a statement.
In the process, Rothschild demonstrated his simple philosophies, harping on pitchers to repeat their deliveries, treating each as individuals and emphasizing the building of relationships.”
‘When they know that you care about them, not only on the field, but off the field, then it evolves into a different level,” Rothschild said.
Definitely sounds like the man for the job.
LGY – didn’t you see the sign?
Please Don’t Feed the Animals.
Tricia & Big Al…….He has tremendous talent and that’s not the issue it’s getting the most out of that talent and that ultimately lies with the ballplayer……Here’s the stark reality of professional sports and particularly baseball….From the moment you sign you’re being replaced by at least 4-5 guys if you’re a position player and by many more if you’re a pitcher…..This whole reliever starter reliever situation has been going on for decades endlessly until you find your niche……..As a professionally athlete it’s not only in one’s own best interest to do what ever it takes to be able to perform at your highest level but you have an obligation to the club as well……..That’s my beef with him as he’s not remotely doing so and to blame the Yankee Organization is BS……Some guys can get away with it due to an uncomplicated delivery ( David Wells, Mickey Lolich come to mind ) and some guys can’t Denny McLain for instance……..Joba is actually coming up to his career crossroads quickly, because in my mind he’s short changing himself first and then the club second….
Trisha—
Maybe Joba has found a mentor!
having home field advantage would have meant facing the Rangers in the first round…I am glad they faced the Twins instead
Well Joe, if you are saying that Cashman in essence dictated the lineup to Girardi at times than I stand corrected and will hold Cashman accountable as well. I understand that if a player is hurt severely enough that they shouldn’t play. But, I do not agree with the extent to which they sat key players during key series; Tampa comes to mind. They missed out on the division title as you know by one game. I understand to some making the playoffs is more important, but I think home field advantage is significant. The stats don’t always say that, but I would much rather have a deciding game in Yankee Stadium than on the road.
upstate kate February 17th, 2011 at 3:39 pm
108
what else did you get to see?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kate :
All I could absorb between 10:45 and 1:00. Mariano looks as good and in shape as he was 15 years ago. Anything else specific you want to know ?
The earlier discussion about Dave Eiland and how much impact he did or didn’t have might use a little perspective.
It might be difficult to judge Eiland without comparison to someone I consider a good PC.
Take Curt Young and his time in Oakland as an example.
He nurtured a youngstaff into one of the best staffs in baseball…making sure to teach and treat each prospect as an individual. He was great also with pitchers who had less success on other teams.
His pitchers say that he had their backs and they trusted him, and treated them as individuals…
Ecxellent post Pat. Well articulated.
Big Al, anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows that you don’t risk further injury to any of your players, let alone your key players, especially when you have the postseason at your doorstep.
WCRSF has a frighteningly jejune and myopic perspective on everything. Well everything Yankee that is…
108
no, nothing specific, just general what you got to see
Pat M–
Good points, but who is to say that Joba is not in his best pitching shape until we see him throw in combat?
As a follow up Pat M–
I looked up the equipment Joba purchased for his home, and they are impressive! If he followed the conditioning coach’s program like he said, then I can see how he got bigger. I think the weight is issue no where near as important as the BMI, strength, and endurance questions. If he improved in those areas, there is no problem with weight.
I think Mike Scioscia, Tony LaRussa and Terry Francona are very good managers. And that’s my being objective, I hate the Red Sox and don’t particularly care for LaRussa personally.
Pat M. -
Well said, and I agree. I’ve never blamed the Yankees for Joba’s problems, but, have placed them on Joba’s shoulders alone. In the past, it was my opinion Joba’s work ethic, or lack of, was a big contributing factor to his lack of attaining his full potential.
What I said earlier is, if Joba indeed did work hard this off season, and found a fix to his delivery, I for I hope he proves all his critics wrong, and pitches well. And should he become the pitcher we all hoped he would, it’s my wish to see him do it as a Yankee.
The notion that Soriano is going to lighten Mo’s load is nuts. How much less can Mo be used?
In 2010:
Total appearances: 61
Total innings: 60
3 days in a row – None.
2 days in a row – 14 times.
Pitched more than 1 inning: 5 times
Pitched with a 4+ run lead: 17 times (out of 61)
Big Al–
Can you cite a source that has ever questioned Joba’s work habits? All I ever recall hearing is that the team was happy with his effort.
I know that last year specifically, he started a weight training program in mid-season that helped him increase his velocity as the season wore on. I think that is pretty good evidence that he is trying.
Wave Your Hat – that was in reference to Mo being used three days in a row possibly. His innings pitched are declining, as they should at 41.
Homefield advantage meant nothing. The Yankees won game 1 in Texas, they ‘stole back HFA’. They lost games in New York. Nothing would have changed that.
The only knocks I have heard against Joba that I can see proof of is that he waved off catchers a lot, fellin love with his slider and would nibble with it, and had trouble with mechanics (and therefore lost movement on fastball and slider and perhaps velocity on fastball). I think all 3 are issues of experience.
That’s funny. I agree about Scioscia, but not the other two.
The Red Sox fans and sports writers were calling Francona a total failure, and wanted him fired for making so many bonehead moves.
LaRussa has had great talent on his teams, plays in a weaker division, and still can’t bring home a winner, unless it comes in a bottle.
“that was in reference to Mo being used three days in a row possibly. His innings pitched are declining, as they should at 41.”
They can’t decline any more, he’ll disappear.
damn, jejune..props!
Mariano’s innings are not declining. Look at his career, every year the Yankees had a good-decent pitching staff he is under 70IP.
“The Red Sox fans and sports writers were calling Francona a total failure, and wanted him fired for making so many bonehead moves”
Don’t know what publications you’re reading, but Boston sportswriters haven’t been calling for his head since he’s been there. Fans? Maybe. I read the papers. I don’t know enough fans to have a feel.
at or under… eh
Who cares what Red Sux fans think. I think any objective baseball fan has to think Francona did a good job in 2010 given their injuries. They were in it until September and only finished six back of us.
Ys Guy February 17th, 2011 at 4:23 pm
damn, jejune..props!
__________________
Wasn’t there a movie on that called jejune bug?
Irreverent Discourse February 17th, 2011 at 4:24 pm
Mariano’s innings are not declining. Look at his career, every year the Yankees had a good-decent pitching staff he is under 70IP.
************
Since 1994 Mariano’s IP have declined.
francessa’s gotta stop. interviewing an expert from crain’s is one thing, listening to stan from rego park deconstruct bernie madoff is just bad radio.
Francona is a good manager ……he’s probably my favorite member of the Sox organization. I also think Girardi is a good manager that will only get better.
Francessa’s passion is football.
“Mariano’s innings are not declining. Look at his career, every year the Yankees had a good-decent pitching staff he is under 70IP.”
I don’t think Mo’s innings are declining. I’m just saying he can’t pitch less. Already last year almost a third of his appearances were just make-work.
Since 1994 Mariano’s IP have declined.
_____________
1994 IP = 0
Can’t go much further down than that.
1995 = 67
1996 = 107
Oh, someone must be looking at another Mo. Not Mariano Rivera
Photo caption contest!
Photo #1:
“I realize you’re from Canada so I’ll start with the basics. This big leather thing on your left hand is called a catching glove…”
WYH – that has to come down to smarter use of the elite closers than. It has long been written that the worst way to use a “closer” is to wait for a lead in the 9th inning to materialize, while losing games in the 7th and 8th inning.
ID-
You are preaching to the choir son.
blake February 17th, 2011 at 4:28 pm
Francona is a good manager ??he?s probably my favorite member of the Sox organization
***************************
I don’t think I have a favorite member of the Sox organization.
parable fell out of my brain this morning and i realized something pretty stunning. i got that word from the nuns and teachers and the priests teaching religion class at holy name of mary”. that’s the word they always used to refer to stories from the bible.
from miriam websters “parable – a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle”
so my priests and nuns were teaching me that stories from the bible were fiction! it didn’t hit me till today!
Who cares what Red Sux fans think. I think any objective baseball fan has to think Francona did a good job in 2010 given their injuries. They were in it until September and only finished six back of us.
–
They have won the division once in the past 10 years and missed the playoffs twice under francona. Winning 89 games is good now? Girardi did that, won the WS, and went to the ALCS.
Typo – since 2004.
West Coast Yankee Fan,
He likes baseball way more
BoJo -
As I stated, it was my opion, due to the fact he appeared out of shape, would not take instruction well, as was witnessed many times when posada would come out to the mound to tell him to throw the pitch he called for, just to have Joba wave him off again, and his post game interviews after pitching poorly he say, “I thought I threw well.”
Now, this past off season he might have changed his routine and maybe, just maybe, he see’s the hand writing on the wall.
If I were Joba, I’d make MO my best friend, get as much help from him as I could, and sit by his side in the dugout picking his brain for all the knowledge I could muster.
Erin,
There are levels though……for example Josh Beckett is at the very bottom with Papelbum….
Yogi. My man.
Once again, the WCRSF has spoken.
Big Al–
Gotcha.
Jerkface, you know better than to assign “tota”l credit and blame for wins and losses to a manager. But if you insist. Francona has won two world championships in the last seven years. Any other manager done that?
BoJo February 17th, 2011 at 3:42 pm
Chad–
Thanks for following up on Christian Garcia….that’s a sad follow up…Too bad.
————-
Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.
Chip
Too true.
Jerkface, you know better than to assign “tota”l credit and blame for wins and losses to a manager.
–
Right, and by non-wins based analysis Francona is an ok manager, just like Girardi.
year – teams with 89+ wins – teams that missed the playoffs with 89+ wins
2010 – 10 – 2
2009 – 7 – 0
2008 -9 – 2
2007 – 8 – 1
2006 – 7 – 2
2005 – 8 – 0
2004 – 12 – 4
2003 – 8 – 1
2002 – 11 – 3
2001 – 8 – 1
300 teams
88 teams with 89+ wins
76/80 playoff teams had 89+ wins
12 teams with 89 wins miss playoffs
4 playoff teams in the last 10 years with less than 89 wins
Yes, I think winning 89 games is good.
The notion of a “great manager” is silly.
You can have an awful manager who can screw up a good team by making dumb decisions that lead to injuries or ineffectiveness but by and large managers get too much credit when a team plays well and take too much blame when they play poorly.
The Red Sox went from 95 wins in 09 to 89 wins last year – did Francona suddenly get dumb? No – half his team wound up on the disabled list.
The Yankees went from 89 wins in 08 to 103 wins and a title in 09 – did Girardi suddenly become a better manager? No, he had a more talented team.
90 would be better :p
I don’t disagree with that. There are certain things about Girardi that I am not particularly enamored with such as his love affair with his binder. (I just laughed realizing who I said that to).
I really like Girardi…..he has done some dumb things as any manager occasionally does but I do think he knows the game, is very intelligent, and will better with more experience. Let’s not forget he basically when straight from playing to managing in the big leagues. Just as with players….longterm id rather have the younger guy that’s going to get better.
“Yes, I think winning 89 games is good.”
But not in the AL East.
The Yankees went from 89 wins in 08 to 103 wins and a title in 09 – did Girardi suddenly become a better manager? No, he had a more talented team.
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Additionally, the only reason his team got 89 wins in 08 was due to a billion injuries on both sides of the ball. If Francona, who is derided as Francoma for not making winning moves and sleeping on the bench kind of like Joe Torre and his sleepy-time tea, is a great manager then so is Girardi.
I’ll take Girardi over damn near anyone because he can actually manage a bullpen, which is one of the few areas where a manager has control over the situations.
WYH – i think only 3 of the 12 teams that missed the playoffs were from the AL east, thats only very slightly worse than 1/6 so…
Jerkface February 17th, 2011 at 4:48 pm
The Yankees went from 89 wins in 08 to 103 wins and a title in 09 – did Girardi suddenly become a better manager? No, he had a more talented team.
–
Additionally, the only reason his team got 89 wins in 08 was due to a billion injuries on both sides of the ball. If Francona, who is derided as Francoma for not making winning moves and sleeping on the bench kind of like Joe Torre and his sleepy-time tea, is a great manager then so is Girardi.
I’ll take Girardi over damn near anyone because he can actually manage a bullpen, which is one of the few areas where a manager has control over the situations.
————————–
I take Mike Scoscia and Ron Gardenhire. Year after year they produce fundamentally sound teams on both sides of the baseball.
As Manager’s:
Girardi – .591 winning %
Francona – .527 winning %
West Coast Yankee Fan February 17th, 2011 at 4:46 pm
I don’t disagree with that. There are certain things about Girardi that I am not particularly enamored with such as his love affair with his binder. (I just laughed realizing who I said that to).
——————–
I agree that Girardi manages too much by the book – doesn’t let the game breathe. Whereas a guy like Torre managed far too much by feel. Somewhere in the middle is what I would like.
I’ll take Girardi over damn near anyone because he can actually manage a bullpen, which is one of the few areas where a manager has control over the situations.”
This. It seems to be one of his greatest strengths and its incredibly important.
upstate kate February 17th, 2011 at 4:12 pm
108
no, nothing specific, just general what you got to see
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kate :
In general, nothing negative to say. Everybody is healthy and getting their work in. Pitcher’s arms getting stretched and hitters trying to get some timing down for what coaches throwing BP can provide. Pitchers doing fielding drills.
By the time the rest of the position players join with others, the pitchers will be slightly ahead of the hitters. Probably live batting practice next Wednesday or Thursday.
No melting of snow seen anywhere.
Chip – They do more with less than any other managers in baseball… I like it. Scoscia is IMO far and beyond the best manager in baseball.
I take Mike Scoscia and Ron Gardenhire. Year after year they produce fundamentally sound teams on both sides of the baseball.
–
Doesn’t show in the playoffs. Have you ever considered the twins target fundamentally sound players? Where as the Yankees go after guys who swing the bat.
The Angels are the most overrated team in the last decade.
Jerkface – I think that distinction goes to the Twins… the Angels did win a WS
“WYH – i think only 3 of the 12 teams that missed the playoffs were from the AL east, thats only very slightly worse than 1/6 so…”
It depends on the assumptions of course, but an 89 win team in the AL East would not have made the playoffs in the last 10 years.
BIG AL February 17th, 2011 at 4:50 pm
As Manager’s:
Girardi – .591 winning %
Francona – .527 winning %
————
Girardi – entering his 4th year as a manager
Francona – entering his 11th year as a manager
not a fair comparison.
Though it does go to prove a point – Tito managed some awful Philly teams and then came to Boston and immediately put together a 98 win season. Did he get smarter? No, he got a more talented team.
Joe Torre same deal – was a joke of a manager before joining a very talented Yankee organization.
Which isn’t to say that Francona and Torre didn’t do anything – they manage(d) personalities as much as the game – getting superstars to buy into a team mentality can’t be easy and they did it in towns that are notorious for applying pressure to both the players and coaches.
It doesn’t show in the playoffs that the Angels dominate the first round over the last 10 years? Ask the RedSox how they think the Angels do in the postseason.
Jerkface February 17th, 2011 at 4:48 pm
I’ll take Girardi over damn near anyone because he can actually manage a bullpen, which is one of the few areas where a manager has control over the situations.
______________
You tell ‘em!
Agreed 100%.
Jerkface February 17th, 2011 at 4:52 pm
I take Mike Scoscia and Ron Gardenhire. Year after year they produce fundamentally sound teams on both sides of the baseball.
–
Doesn’t show in the playoffs. Have you ever considered the twins target fundamentally sound players? Where as the Yankees go after guys who swing the bat.
The Angels are the most overrated team in the last decade.
————–
In a short series talent is going to win over fundamentals almost every time.
But especially in the case of the Twins you’re talking about a team that is in the playoffs year after year without a single dominant bat or pitcher to speak of.
It doesn’t show in the playoffs that the Angels dominate the first round over the last 10 years? Ask the RedSox how they think the Angels do in the postseason.
–
Eh? They lost in the ALDS 3 times, lost in the ALCS twice, and didn’t make the playoffs twice since 04.
The first season the Angels didn’t have the best players in the AL West…..they missed the playoffs.
Irreverent Discourse February 17th, 2011 at 4:55 pm
It doesn’t show in the playoffs that the Angels dominate the first round over the last 10 years? Ask the RedSox how they think the Angels do in the postseason.
————–
For that matter ask the Yankees how they feel about the Angels.
But especially in the case of the Twins you’re talking about a team that is in the playoffs year after year without a single dominant bat or pitcher to speak of.
–
Ba-wuh? Joe Mauer, Justin Morneau? Two MVP bats? Jim Thome? Johan Santana? Francisco Liriano? Joe Nathan?
NAME THAT YANKEE PITCHER!
1. Minor League Baseball Career – 6 seasons; first brought up to the Yankees – in 4th season in the majors; currently slated for Yankee rotation
2. Minor League Baseball Career – 1 season; first brought up to the Yankees in his first season in the majors; currently slated – who knows
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I rest my case.
WYH – An 87 win team would have won the division in 2006
Twins missed the playoffs twice in the past 4 seasons.
In a short series talent is going to win over fundamentals almost every time.
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In 09 the Angels and Twins both lost because of poor fundamentals.
I was remiss in not mentioning Gardenhire.
Jerkface I disagree totally about Mike Scoscia. I had Angels seasons tickets for two years including when they won it all in 2002 and in my opinion he did a superb job and he did in other years as well.
I might also point out that when 100 anonymous major league players were polled. Scoscia came in second after Bobby Cox. Players love him.
Didn’t Girardi kick Scoscia’s butt in the play-offs a little while ago. IIRC, he out managed him.
In 09 the Angels and Twins both lost because of poor fundamentals.
That’s because you can only rely on your fallback options in the playoffs. Talented teams can have bad games and still win because they can fall back on their sound fundamentals. When all you have is fundamentals, and that fails you there is nothing to fall back on.
Jerkface February 17th, 2011 at 4:57 pm
But especially in the case of the Twins you’re talking about a team that is in the playoffs year after year without a single dominant bat or pitcher to speak of.
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Ba-wuh? Joe Mauer, Justin Morneau? Two MVP bats? Jim Thome? Johan Santana? Francisco Liriano? Joe Nathan?
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Mauer is not a dominant bat – he’s a tremendous hitter for average but would you call him domiant with so little power? Thome – too old, certainly not dominant. Santana yes but he’s been gone for a few years and they’ve still made the playoffs. Liriano and Morneau I’ll give you though Justin missed most of the second half of the season and they still made the playoffs last year. Nathan likewise was out all of last year and they made the playoffs.
The Yankees out steal and get caught less than the Twins.
Chip -
Good point, but keep in mind Giardi’s 1st year as a manager, of a terrible Marlins team, he had them playing well above what was thought possible, and won Manager of the Year.
Having talent is a given, knowing how to utilize it properly is another.
To me, Girardi’s ability to handle pitcher’s is his greatest asset.
“WYH – An 87 win team would have won the division in 2006″
?? A 97 win team won the AL East in 2006. An 89 win team would not have made the playoffs. That’s what I meant about depending on assumptions.
“Didn’t Girardi kick Scoscia’s butt in the play-offs a little while ago. IIRC, he out managed him”
Yeah. By signing with the team that had far more talent.
When all you have is fundamentals, and that fails you there is nothing to fall back on.
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Wow, so the teams with excellent fundamentals lost because their fundamentals were not excellent. So, yea like I was saying…
Andwhen polled, 100 players also said they would rather spend time with Minka Kelly over Bobby Cox. Maybe she should mange if player love is the key factor to determining a great manager.
I think Girardi’s performance in Florida speaks volumes about how good of a manager he is.
He is just in a tough spot to be evaluated as manager of the Yankees… sometimes all a great manager can hope to do on a very talented team is “not mess it up”. For comparison sake, if you gave Torre a bad marlins team no one would expect him to turn them into competitors.
Mauer is not a dominant bat – he’s a tremendous hitter for average but would you call him domiant with so little power? Thome – too old, certainly not dominant. Santana yes but he’s been gone for a few years and they’ve still made the playoffs. Liriano and Morneau I’ll give you though Justin missed most of the second half of the season and they still made the playoffs last year. Nathan likewise was out all of last year and they made the playoffs.
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Mauer is a batting champion, that is the definition of dominant. He OPS’d over 1 in 09 when they made the playoffs. They had the quintessential dominant bat in 09, a guy who hit .365 with POWER. Thome likewise OPS’d over 1. Thats dominance. The Yankees made the playoffs last year without anyone OPSing over 1 and only 1 guy was over .900, they didn’t have a dominant bat.
And the twins missed the playoffs 2 out of 4 seasons!
Ron Gardenhire: Not a good manager.
WYH – yes a 97 win team won the division, which means nothing. they only needed 87 wins to win it.
The Twins average 88 wins last 10 years, good for them for being in the central.
Perhaps the breakdown of a fundamentally good team has something to do with the pressure Joe put on them by running or paly calling? I think it did in the play-off series he has been in.
Jerkface February 17th, 2011 at 5:03 pm
Mauer is not a dominant bat – he’s a tremendous hitter for average but would you call him domiant with so little power? Thome – too old, certainly not dominant. Santana yes but he’s been gone for a few years and they’ve still made the playoffs. Liriano and Morneau I’ll give you though Justin missed most of the second half of the season and they still made the playoffs last year. Nathan likewise was out all of last year and they made the playoffs.
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Mauer is a batting champion, that is the definition of dominant.
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Actually that is the definition of a guy who had the best batting average. I already conceded that he is a tremendous hitter for average – especially at his position.
I thought you were going to ignore my posts Brad? Keep it up and I’ll be happy to post some of your more memorable past posts – including the one where you bashed LoHud posters. Want to play?
Actually that is the definition of a guy who had the best batting average. I already conceded that he is a tremendous hitter for average – especially at his position.
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He dominated pitchers by hitting their balls into play for hits. He won a batting title while OPSing over 1 and getting on base over .400 He has an over .400 on base percentage the last 3 seasons.
“WYH – yes a 97 win team won the division, which means nothing. they only needed 87 wins to win it.”
Wrong, I think, since those missing 10 wins would have to go somewhere. Again, that’s what I meant about depending on assumptions. And my assumption based on historical results is that if you finish with 89 wins in the AL East you are pretty much a lock to be dead meat.
Chip–
Really…you’re off your game today. IN 09, Mauer hit for average and power. And Mauer/Morneau/Cuddyer averaged 30 HRs each.
WCYF,
You can’t seriously believe these two things.
“I think Mike Scioscia, Tony LaRussa and Terry Francona are very good managers. And that’s my being objective, I hate the Red Sox and don’t particularly care for LaRussa personally.”
“I don’t disagree with that. There are certain things about Girardi that I am not particularly enamored with such as his love affair with his binder. (I just laughed realizing who I said that to).”
I don’t think Girardi is anywhere near the worst manager in baseball. I just think Scoscia, LaRussa, Gardenhire and Francona are better.
What’s harder to do, being a good manager on a less than stellar club with low expectations or being a good manager on a good club with overly demanding expectations ???/
And Kubel hit 28 as well
BIG AL February 17th, 2011 at 5:00 pm
Chip -
Good point, but keep in mind Giardi’s 1st year as a manager, of a terrible Marlins team, he had them playing well above what was thought possible, and won Manager of the Year.
Having talent is a given, knowing how to utilize it properly is another.
To me, Girardi’s ability to handle pitcher’s is his greatest asset.
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Girardi’s Marlin team had:
Dan Uggla
Hanley Ramirez
Miguel Cabrera
Dontrelle Willis
Josh Johnson
Rickey Nolasco
Anibel Sanchez
among others.
That’s a lot of talent right there and his “handling” of Johnson, Sanchez and Nolasco may have been a major factor in all three of them missing significant time with injuries the next season.
I think he’s probably a better manager today than he was when he won Manager of the Year.
Mauer is definitely a dominant hitter for a catcher.
.294/.372/.411, .783 OPS
.347/.429/.507, .936 OPS
.293/.382/.426, .808 OPS
.328/.413/.451, .864 OPS
.365/.444/.587, 1.031 OPS
.327/.404/.469, .871 OPS
I can’t remember a catcher that put up numbers like that since Mike Piazza
Pat M – at the end of the day, both of those job descriptions are “win baseball games” regardless of expectation.
It is harder to do on a poor club… but you will get more chances to do so?
Jerkface February 17th, 2011 at 5:08 pm
Actually that is the definition of a guy who had the best batting average. I already conceded that he is a tremendous hitter for average – especially at his position.
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He dominated pitchers by hitting their balls into play for hits. He won a batting title while OPSing over 1 and getting on base over .400 He has an over .400 on base percentage the last 3 seasons.
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I cheerfully withdraw my stance on Joe Mauer – and still believe Ron Gardenhire is a very good manager.
WCYF -
Time to talk to Pat M., your doing it again, and you said he should let you know when it’s time to stop and play nice.
Are you really that sick of a person that you keep track of other posts from years gone by?
I might say you need help, but, you may be past that point.
OK, I’m ready for your nasty retort, or will Vineyard Yankee be doing it for you, or in unison with you.
“I take Mike Scoscia and Ron Gardenhire. Year after year they produce fundamentally sound teams on both sides of the baseball.”
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Over the past 2 years in the playoffs, do you remember a Yankee team making any blunders in the playoffs?
Once you do try to remember that, think about how many mistakes the Twins the past 2 years have made and the Angels in 2009 made against the Yankees.
Who is really the fundamentally sound team?
I don’t think Girardi is anywhere near the worst manager in baseball. I just think Scoscia, LaRussa, Gardenhire and Francona are better.
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And yet all of them were out managed by Girardi in 2009 and 2010 when he won more games and went deeper into the playoffs.
Larussa used to be a good manager but he’s terrible nowadays. Gardenhire is no better
Who cares if he had mauer or morneau or santana or nathan.
you can’t tell me that 4 studs out of 25 players on a roster is enough to alleviate him of needing to manage well.
“Good point, but keep in mind Giardi’s 1st year as a manager, of a terrible Marlins team, he had them playing well above what was thought possible, and won Manager of the Year”
I like Girardi. He’s a good guy. But:
1) It was not a terrible Marlins team
2) Willie Randolph should have won the award
LGY February 17th, 2011 at 5:12 pm
“I take Mike Scoscia and Ron Gardenhire. Year after year they produce fundamentally sound teams on both sides of the baseball.”
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Over the past 2 years in the playoffs, do you remember a Yankee team making any blunders in the playoffs?
Once you do try to remember that, think about how many mistakes the Twins the past 2 years have made and the Angels in 2009 made against the Yankees.
Who is really the fundamentally sound team?
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Not off hand – but I do recall Girardi making some very questionable pitching moves when things were tight in Texas.
Again, I opened by saying I think the “great manager” is a myth and by and large talent rules the day.
If you swapped out Girardi for any other manager generally regarded as a good manager I doubt it would have much result in the final standings.
Casey Stengel used to say, ” The Yankees don’t pay me to win every game …… just 2 out of 3. ” (Like in Meatloaf)
Do that in any sport and you’re likely to walk away with a championship trophy.
Different thing today. How a manager handles the peaks and valleys counts for everything.
Mell February 17th, 2011 at 5:12 pm
“Good point, but keep in mind Giardi’s 1st year as a manager, of a terrible Marlins team, he had them playing well above what was thought possible, and won Manager of the Year”
I like Girardi. He’s a good guy. But:
1) It was not a terrible Marlins team
2) Willie Randolph should have won the award
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Agree on both counts.
“Not off hand – but I do recall Girardi making some very questionable pitching moves when things were tight in Texas.”
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I am talking about the players, not the manager.
“And yet all of them were out managed by Girardi in 2009 and 2010″
No Patrick, they weren’t. Girardi had better talent than all those teams. In fact, he had better talent than every team.
I think he did a heck of a job last year. Some things went wrong and he held it together pretty good. 2009? You and I could have managed that team to a World Series.
Irreverent Discourse February 17th, 2011 at 5:12 pm
Who cares if he had mauer or morneau or santana or nathan.
you can’t tell me that 4 studs out of 25 players on a roster is enough to alleviate him of needing to manage well.
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Also a good point.
you can’t tell me that 4 studs out of 25 players on a roster is enough to alleviate him of needing to manage well.
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Gardenhire puts a reliever in to face A-rod with the bases loaded whose career against A-rod is 4 / 4 with 3 HRs. Manager of the Year.
Its fruitless to ‘rank managers’. The managers who win are all in the same area of being good, but I’ll take guys who are better at controlling what they have to control (bullpen) than guys who get rep for things that aren’t outwardly apparent.
“I don’t think Girardi is anywhere near the worst manager in baseball. I just think Scoscia, LaRussa, Gardenhire and Francona are better.”
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What makes Francona a better manager than Girardi?
LGY February 17th, 2011 at 5:15 pm
“Not off hand – but I do recall Girardi making some very questionable pitching moves when things were tight in Texas.”
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I am talking about the players, not the manager.
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Ah, I’m talking about managers and not players.
LGY February 17th, 2011 at 5:16 pm
“I don’t think Girardi is anywhere near the worst manager in baseball. I just think Scoscia, LaRussa, Gardenhire and Francona are better.”
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What makes Francona a better manager than Girardi?
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What makes you so sure Francona’s not a better manager than Girardi?
mell – http://www.baseball-reference......2006.shtml
This roster just screams major talent to you? Keep in mind 4 years ago JJ was not who he is now and DTrain was well on his way out of relevance.
Randolph did not deserve anything. He walked into a very talented team. How often does the team with the most wins in the league win the Manager of the year? Torre had to win 114 games to sniff it. Not 97.
If you swapped out Girardi for any other manager generally regarded as a good manager I doubt it would have much result in the final standings.
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I agree. Though Gardenhire would have the yankees bunting more which might cost them some wins.
“Ah, I’m talking about managers and not players.”
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What do manager decisions have to do with fundamentals?
“What makes you so sure Francona’s not a better manager than Girardi?”
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I never said he was.
LGY February 17th, 2011 at 5:17 pm
“Ah, I’m talking about managers and not players.”
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What do manager decisions have to do with fundamentals?
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Well, isn’t whether or not to stress fundamentals in practice, spring training, even in the kinds of players you target and develop at least partially a managerial decision just the same as how you use a bullpen?
No Patrick, they weren’t. Girardi had better talent than all those teams. In fact, he had better talent than every team.
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Until some genius comes up with a metric that can judge managers, the only thing we can look at is on the field performance or wins and losses.
Now, obviously, talent is what matters. I don’t think a manager has much effect on how the games turn out. But if someone tells me Gardenhire, Sciosia, Francona and LaRussa are better managers than Girardi I’m going to quote wins and playoff performance because in the end thats all that matters
LGY February 17th, 2011 at 5:18 pm
“What makes you so sure Francona’s not a better manager than Girardi?”
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I never said he was.
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Then why give someone cr@p over their opinion?
Angels were close to the league lead in errors last year. Fundamentals.
Managers (like gardenhire, maddon) that “get away with” borderline and stupid decisions are often the ones referred to as “great”. Being lucky shouldn’t be attributed to being at the upper echelon of your profession.
Then why give someone cr@p over their opinion?
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Because they are a bad person whose opinions are bad. Tony La Russa, who invented managing by a binder, is a good manager but Joe isn’t because he goes by a binder?
Jerkface February 17th, 2011 at 5:19 pm
Angels were close to the league lead in errors last year. Fundamentals.
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Also injuries.
“Then why give someone cr@p over their opinion?”
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Asking someone a question about their opinion is giving them crap??? He said Francona is better than Girardi. So, I am interested in knowing why.
Seriously, what is wrong with you today Chip? You are in extra dumb mode. Too much cold medicine?
Subtract your payroll in millions from the number of wins your team has. Do this over a 5-10 year period and theres your list of “best managers”.
Jerkface February 17th, 2011 at 5:20 pm
Then why give someone cr@p over their opinion?
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Because they are a bad person whose opinions are bad. Tony La Russa, who invented managing by a binder, is a good manager but Joe isn’t because he goes by a binder?
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I don’t particularly like TLR – but the guy’s going to Cooperstown. Saying that Girardi emulates his style and is therefore a good manager is akin to saying that I’m as good a chef as Bobby Flay because I use the same style of knives.
“Randolph did not deserve anything. He walked into a very talented team.”
Randolph inherited a team that won 83 games and brought largely the same group to 97 wins and within a game of the World Series.
Girardi won 78 games, finished in 4th place and did it all with a team that had around .500 talent.
Joe Girardi is a smart, nice , empathetic individual that values discipline, teamwork, leadership, and playing sound baseball. Since becoming manager the Yankees have maintained a sterling stolen base percentage, been near the bottom or best in the league at preventing errors defensively, and rarely make mistakes in the field. The players are all champions of charity and goodwill, full of talent, and they’ve won a world series.
But he reads books so lets say Gardenhire’s fat head is better. Grass is always greener.
Subtract your payroll in millions from the number of wins your team has. Do this over a 5-10 year period and theres your list of “best managers”.
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hahaha what
I need to see Gardenhire bunt gif
Also injuries.
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Not even. Scoscia can only manage players who are already fully developed and thus no longer require his instruction? They lost Kendry Morales and their terrible catchers who had no position catching in the majors. Their entire outfield and infield outside of 1b were healthy.
Jerkface February 17th, 2011 at 5:20 pm
Then why give someone cr@p over their opinion?
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Because they are a bad person whose opinions are bad. Tony La Russa, who invented managing by a binder, is a good manager but Joe isn’t because he goes by a binder?
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I don’t particularly like TLR – but the guy’s going to Cooperstown. Saying that Girardi emulates his style and is therefore a good manager is akin to saying that I’m as good a chef as Bobby Flay because I use the same style of knives.
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In other words – it’s not the method you use necessarily, it’s how effectively you use it.
“I agree. Though Gardenhire would have the yankees bunting more which might cost them some wins.”
Of course Gardenhire might bunt less if he managed the Yanks.
I think managers are generally fungible, but I do think Girardi is a very good manager and I wouldn’t want anyone else managing this particular team.
He is comfortable here to the point where he doesn’t feel the pressure to have the pedal to the medal 162 games a year like Torre did (which is very important for a team with significant age in some spots), the players trust him, and he is very good at managing a bullpen. He does make so eyebrow raising decisions sometimes (like all managers), but he is not overly stupid with bunting or reckless like Mike S. I think Girardi right now is the perfect fit for this team.
Also, while I do think managers are generally fungible over a 162 game season, they can rear their ugly head in the playoffs. I would never want Gardenhire managing this team in the playoffs. I would be pulling my hair out watching him bunt in the first inning of game 1 of the ALDS giving the other pitcher a free out so early in the game.
I don’t think you can necessarily quantify everything. I think it’s the total picture. Their baseball knowledge, preparedness, ability to motivate and get along with their players and coaches. How they deal with management, get the most out of their players, their demeanor under pressure, when they bunt or hit and run, how they deal with the press, how relaxed they are, how they manage their pitching staffs and bench and importantly; the intangibles.
It’s subjective to a large extent and certainly any manager’s ability to win is limited by their roster and injuries.
Mell – he managed that 83 win team too. Is he responsible for them being 83 wins or 97?
That 97 win team had Nady, LoDuca, Carlos Delgado, and Billy Wagner added to it. Obviously this drastic shift in wins was all the manager?
Jerkface February 17th, 2011 at 5:26 pm
Also injuries.
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Not even. Scoscia can only manage players who are already fully developed and thus no longer require his instruction? They lost Kendry Morales and their terrible catchers who had no position catching in the majors. Their entire outfield and infield outside of 1b were healthy.
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Well yes but two of their outfielders are also very old.
Again – I am not disputing the notion that talent is more important than anything a manager does. Francona lost half his team to injury – I don’t care what manager the Sox had last year – they weren’t going to be able to overcome that.
I don’t particularly like TLR – but the guy’s going to Cooperstown. Saying that Girardi emulates his style and is therefore a good manager is akin to saying that I’m as good a chef as Bobby Flay because I use the same style of knives.
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So does Tony La Russa do something different with his binder? Perhaps he prints out the numbers in wing-dings font? Does he read it different, right to left maybe like the Japanese? All Tony La Russa did was invent modern-day closer usage, which some say is a pox on relief pitching, robbing the best pitchers of pitching in the most dangerous situations.
He is barely over .500 in his career and has 2 world series rings decades apart. He got smoked in every world series he ever lost.
“Dan Uggla
Hanley Ramirez
Miguel Cabrera
Dontrelle Willis
Josh Johnson
Rickey Nolasco
Anibel Sanchez”
How old were all of these players at the time? Most of them were rookies, and with so few veterans on the team to serve as guidance, I would think that the role of the manager and coaches would of extra importance.
“He is comfortable here to the point where he doesn’t feel the pressure to have the pedal to the medal 162 games a year like Torre did”
Except Torre didn’t always do that. With good managers, I think teams affect the manager’s style more often than the other way around.
Pat M and Big Al – neither of you responded to my post about Joba (4:37 p.m.)
Anyone who can look at Phil’s 6 seasons in the minors and then look at Joba’s ONE season in the minors and say with a straight face that the Yankees have not mishandled Joba’s career, well the only person I think capable of that would be WCRSF.
Mell – Not to mention that Florida team Girardi managed was 1/3 of the payroll of Randolph’s Mets.
Patrick, ok, I get what you’re saying about the success rate of pitchers. I just think that maybe it was time for a change with Eiland……..I have a great feeling about Rothschild.
Jerkface February 17th, 2011 at 5:29 pm
I don’t particularly like TLR – but the guy’s going to Cooperstown. Saying that Girardi emulates his style and is therefore a good manager is akin to saying that I’m as good a chef as Bobby Flay because I use the same style of knives.
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So does Tony La Russa do something different with his binder? Perhaps he prints out the numbers in wing-dings font? Does he read it different, right to left maybe like the Japanese? All Tony La Russa did was invent modern-day closer usage, which some say is a pox on relief pitching, robbing the best pitchers of pitching in the most dangerous situations.
He is barely over .500 in his career and has 2 world series rings decades apart. He got smoked in every world series he ever lost.
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All I said is that you can’t compare him to Girardi simply by the fact that they both use the book to manage by. It helps Girardi a great deal that he can go into his book and see A-Rod, Jeter, Tex, Cano, Posada, Granderson and Swisher whereas TLR goes into his and sees Pujols, Holliday and then a whole lotta nothing.
Well yes but two of their outfielders are also very old.
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Ok they were old, so? They are experienced, coachable, right? They should have a huge foundation of fundamentally sound baseball. Their star outfielder is from the TWINS. We’re talking a guy that moved laterally from fundamental organization to another.
Yet they lead the league in errors.
Trisha starting trouble again? Want to apologize for lying about the New York Times Mariano article?
Patrick, ok, I get what you’re saying about the success rate of pitchers. I just think that maybe it was time for a change with Eiland……..I have a great feeling about Rothschild.
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Whoa talk about a late response
I too hope Rothschild is a good pitching coach. I have high hopes.
Francona is notorious for resting players down the stretch and settling for the WC instead of gunning for the division. He even came out and admitted this.
Also, everyone lauded him for the Red Sox winning 89 games last year despite all the injuries they suffered. Well that’s great, but isn’t that also what Girardi did in 2008?
I think Francona is a very good manager, but I have yet to see a stand-out strength of his that Girardi doesn’t possess. They have very similar strategies (except Girardi is way better at handling a bullpen, IMO).
My bad, ID. I thought he got there in ’06. Still think he did a better job than Girardi in ’06. Sometimes the voters go out of there way to think out of the box on these things. That was one, IMO. There was nothing special about the job he did. He finished in 4th with 4th place talent. Maybe there was nothing special about anyone’s job that year, and Girardi was the leper with the best complexion. I don’t know.
RS:
http://www.baseball-reference......2006.shtml
All I said is that you can’t compare him to Girardi simply by the fact that they both use the book to manage by.
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I would never SIMPLY compare him that way, but when it is used on one hand as a derision and on the other hand as praise, it smacks of stupidity.
Tony La Russa LIVES by his match ups. He is the king of the 4 pitcher inning. Joe Maddon is the same way. No one craps on them. Girardi is the same kind of thoughtful, cerebral manager.
I skipped right over that long -winded rant of a blog post about Joba. I’m tired of hearing how the Yankees ruined him. Joba got unlucky with the injury and he’s also at least partly, probably, more to to blame for how he’s turned out.
I don’t particularly like TLR – but the guy’s going to Cooperstown. Saying that Girardi emulates his style and is therefore a good manager is akin to saying that I’m as good a chef as Bobby Flay because I use the same style of knives.
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What the heck Chip, are you trying to say Tony LaRussa is a good cook because he’s italian? I’m sick of the stereotypes dude!
“All I said is that you can’t compare him to Girardi simply by the fact that they both use the book to manage by. It helps Girardi a great deal that he can go into his book and see A-Rod, Jeter, Tex, Cano, Posada, Granderson and Swisher whereas TLR goes into his and sees Pujols, Holliday and then a whole lotta nothing.”
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The post by WCYF did not compare them as managers on the merits.
He said “I am not particularly enamored with such as his love affair with his binder.”
He didn’t say, I don’t like how Girardi uses or applies his binder. His point was that he doesn’t like that Girardi is so attached to his binder, in his opinion.
La Russa invented the love affair with the binder, and there is not a manager in baseball more attached to it.
Mell – They really only fell to 4th at the end of the season. They were competing for the wild card into september IIRC. Whereas the Mets were trailing that Florida team all season.
mell – i mixed up my years there. i meant that the year before the mets sat in 4th all year under randolph, while earning almost $100mill more.
Jerkface February 17th, 2011 at 5:33 pm
Well yes but two of their outfielders are also very old.
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Ok they were old, so? They are experienced, coachable, right? They should have a huge foundation of fundamentally sound baseball. Their star outfielder is from the TWINS. We’re talking a guy that moved laterally from fundamental organization to another.
Yet they lead the league in errors
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How do you coach someone to have better range or more speed? You can’t.
Jeter and Posada stunk last year – does that mean Girardi’s a bad manager?
Patrick, I’m not allowed to blog at work, lol – I was on my lunch break earlier.
I’m not the biggest Girardi fan; I could take or leave him – and he drives me crazy.
“Whereas the Mets were trailing that Florida team all season”
The Mets finished 20 games ahead of them.
Clubhouse divide last year under Francona’s watch
A story in the Boston Herald describes a locker room divided between the players that were part of the two World Series titles and the ones brought in this offseason.
“There’s no accountability,” fumed one clubhouse source, according to the paper.
The players new to the Red Sox in 2010 are Adrian Beltre, John Lackey, Marco Scutaro, Jeremy Hermida, Mike Cameron, Bill Hall and Scott Schoeneweis.
The Herald’s John Tomase writes, “A clear divide is opening between the veterans of the team’s World Series and playoff runs and the new players who were acquired to bolster the club this winter. Marco Scutaro seems like the only truly assimilated player of the bunch. It’s not hard to read between the lines.”
“mell – i mixed up my years there. i meant that the year before the mets sat in 4th all year under randolph, while earning almost $100mill more.”
Gotcha, ID.
Betsy I could be wrong but if the Yankees gave Phil one season in the minors before they brought him up to the majors and gave Joba SIX seasons in the minors and didn’t bring him up until his FOURTH season, and Joba was in the rotation and Phil was in nowhere land, you would be all over the Yankees like a cheap suit.
If the Joba rant you were talking about was mine, that’s fair for you not to read it. I admit that I skipped most of your rants about Phil last season.
“Subtract your payroll in millions from the number of wins your team has. Do this over a 5-10 year period and theres your list of “best managers”. ”
That’s dumb. What you’re basically saying is that Girardi would be considered a better manager if Arod was making $25 million instead of $32 million.
How do you coach someone to have better range or more speed? You can’t.
Jeter and Posada stunk last year – does that mean Girardi’s a bad manager?
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Range and speed don’t cause errors. You’re doing a very poor job of saying that having 113 errors for 2nd in the AL is fundamentally sound.
“How do you coach someone to have better range or more speed? You can’t.”
———————
What do range and speed have to do with errors?
It actually makes it easier to make less errors in that case.
You can’t make an error on a ball you don’t get to.
You can coach players to make up for their lack of speed and range with fundamentals. Jeter used to make 10+ errors a year and now he makes less, whats different?
Joba played college ball while Hughes was drafted out of high school. That accounts for part of the discrepancy in minor league time.
Tricia….I didn’t know that the first player reference was Phil Hughes because of the 6 years in the Minors ???? That being said, I’m hard press to find another pitcher that so dominated the minors like he did as a teenager no less
“Trisha starting trouble again? Want to apologize for lying about the New York Times Mariano article?”
WCRSFC – you’re certifiable. You manipulate facts and then smugly present them as truth. I caught you at it and now you’re squirming.
Go play with yourself.
“You can’t make an error on a ball you don’t get to.”
You also don’t get errors for just missing a spectacular play. Errors are only given on plays that are considered routine. Which means there’s a lack of fundamentals.
Trisha -
I did not realize your post was directed at me and Pat M.
If your point was Joba was rushed, I agree. Was there an immediate need for him at the ML level in 2007, yes.
I think the difference could be explained as; had Phil not been injured, he would not have been returned to SWB, but rather, most likely would have stayed in NY.
Phil was also on a fast track, but, beset by injuries, thus more time in AAA.
Could Joba been returned to AAA after his injury in Texas, yes. Would it have made a difference, we’ll never know.
Trish, I’m under no obligation to read some blog post from the Times or any source just because you posted it. If you want to think that Phil has gotten favorable treatment over the years, then you have every right; I’m not going to try and argue you out of it. I disagree, that is all.
Pat M – no question he dominated. He was/is fantastic. My point is only that Joba was not given the benefit of more than one damned season. And it was because the Yankees were desperate to win in the postseason and stupid Torre messed that up by letting Joba turn into a midge bath!
RS – expectation vs results. Players that earn $32million are expected to win, regardless of their manager. So a team earning $200million is expected to win more games than a team earning $50million, regardless of the manager being Mickey mouse or Yogi Berra.
Tricia…Do keep in mind that Hughes was younger when he was called up to the Bronx
Betsy it was from SI and there was some really good stuff in it. I think Phil was rushed up before he was ready, so maybe you can call it comparable favorable treatment. And it isn’t even about Phil. As always when these things take on a life of their own, the original post isn’t even recognizable!
My original response was only to someone pointing out how different Phil and Joba’s paths have been, but whoever said it was saying that it was because Joba was bad and Phil was good, if you know what I mean. So I responded to that by mentioning Joba’s upbringing, etc., not to down Phil but to show that Joba had a lot of deficiencies going into the whole thing that Phil didn’t. Again it was because the poster used Phil and Joba as his examples.
I love Phil. I think he is great. I still think he is going to be phenomenal.
I hurt for Joba. I think he was totally misused by the Yankees and now it feels like they are tossing him aside like damaged goods. Joba needed so much more, in every way, than Phil.
I’m so happy that Rotschild has said that he thinks pitchers need to be helped both on and off the field and that he believes in getting to know them as individuals. I think that more than Joba will benefit from this approach.
Trisha -
I understand your point, but, Phil was drafted in 2004, and came up in 2007. He would not have gone back to AAA, had it not been for injuries. Phil was just out of HS, and just turning 21.
Joba on the other hand had 4 years of college ball under his belt, so he served his training period more at that level.
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