Wednesday morning notes: Burnett ready for first spring start
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Notes on Mar 02, 2011 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
All eyes will be on A.J. Burnett this afternoon at Steinbrenner Field. These might very well be the most scrutinized two innings of spring training.
Burnett will be facing a split-squad of Astros, who also have a home game today. Houston’s lineup will not include either Carlos Lee or Hunter Pence, but the Astros are traveling with big league regulars Michael Bourn, Bill Hall and Brett Wallace.
As you’re well aware, Burnett is coming off the worst year of his career, a debacle of a season that included a 5.26 ERA and winless months of June and August. This winter, Burnett began working early with new pitching coach Larry Rothschild, who assigned Burnett a series of exercises intended to help him repeat his delivery.
Burnett will be the last of the Yankees top three starters to make his spring training debut.
• The Yankees are at home today, which means no travel, which means enough time for a full squad workout before today’s game against the Astros. We’ll see the standard hitting and fielding drills this morning, then the field will be prepared or the actual game.
• Looks like Andrew Brackman is still on schedule for tomorrow’s bullpen. He’s been able to play catch with no recurring groin problems. “I haven’t felt it in a couple of days,” he said.
• Although indications were that Greg Golson would play today, it looks like he’s getting another day off after being beaned in the head. He is, however, on the field for pregame drills. He wouldn’t be out there if the Yankees were worried about him.
• If you follow the minor league system, it’s interesting that left-hander Steve Garrison went two innings yesterday. The Yankees have been slow to stretch their minor leaguers beyond one inning, and they certainly haven’t done that with any minor league relievers. Yesterday seems to indicate the Yankees plan to have Garrison working out of the rotation rather than the bullpen. Garrison said he hasn’t been told one way or the other, but he’s been a starter throughout his career, only pitching in relief when he was coming back from an injury.
• CC Sabathia threw an early bullpen this morning. Mark Prior is also scheduled for an early side session, while Bartolo Colon, Dellin Betances and Pedro Feliciano will throw sides later this morning.
• There are two sim games scheduled for today — basically the same as live BP — with Romulo Sanchez and Warner Madrigal pitching against Austin Krum and Doug Bernier. Jose Gil and Gustavo Molina will handle the catching.
• Former Yankees minor leaguers Lance Pendleton and Jose Valdez are among the Astros who will be in Tampa for today’s game. Pendleton is a Rule 5 pick trying to win a spot in the Astros rotation. Bud Norris is starting for Houston.
• In their next three games the Yankees will face the Rays James Shields, the Red Sox Clay Buchholz and former teammate Chad Gaudin, who’s now with the Nationals.
• Available pitchers: Sergio Mitre, Joba Chamberlain, Boone Logan, David Phelps, Hector Noesi, Luis Ayala, D.J. Mitchell, Robert Fish, Daniel Turpen and Adam Warren.
• Off the bench: C Austin Romine, 1B Bradley Suttle, 2B Kevin Russo, SS Eduardo Nunez, 3B Brandon Laird, LF Daniel Brewer, CF Melky Mesa, RF Jordan Parraz, DH Russell Martin
• On the road for Houston: The Astros are traveling with three of their top five prospects according to Baseball America. The organization’s top prospect, RHP Jordan Lyles, will be here along with shortstops Jonathan Villar (No. 3) and Jio Mier (No. 5).
ASTROS
Michael Bourn CF
Clint Barmes SS
Brian Bogusevic RF
Jason Michaels DH
Bill Hall 2B
Brett Wallace 1B
J.R. Towles C
J.B. Shuck LF
Matt Downs 3B
• Tomorrow’s travelers today: Tomorrow’s road trip is a long one, with the Yankees traveling nearly two hours to Port Charlotte. Not a fun drive. The regular infielders have the game off.
Pitchers who are making the trip: Brian Anderson, Dellin Betances, Ivan Nova, Robert Fish, Freddy Garcia, D.J. Mitchell, Ivan Nova, Ryan Pope, Andy Sisco, Daniel Turpen, Adam Warren and Eric Wordekemper.
Players who are not making the trip: Francisco Cervelli, Jorge Posada, Ronnie Belliard, Robinson Cano, Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez, Mark Teixeira, Andruw Jones and Justin Maxwell.
Associated Press photos of Burnett throwing a bullpen earlier this spring and a group of Yankees minor leaguers laughing from the bench during yesterday’s game
“I haven’t felt it in a couple of days,” he said.
Good to know Brackman is focused and not playing with himself…
Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2011 at 10:25 am
“I haven’t felt it in a couple of days,” he said.
Good to know Brackman is focused and not playing with himself…
_____________________
Or that he isn’t focused on playing with himself.
I have nothing but high hopes for AJ. Can’t wait to see him out on the mound. Not that he is going to showcase his stuff this way this early but if Michael Bourn gets on base and tries to steal, you are going to see a mighty fast kid!
Going back to a comment I read a few threads ago. NOBODY knows how Francisco Cervelli is going to perform this season so please don’t pretend that you know. His defense looked pretty damned good when he played in the World Cup, as it did when he was in for Posada and Molina two seasons ago. Last year he wore down because he wasn’t using to catching as much as he did. He worked out hard over the offseason. His first hit this season was a flippin’ triple. How about waiting to see his stuff before you trash it as no good.
I’m always willing to wait and watch and give a player a chance. Try it, you might like it.
*****************
I never believe trade rumors and I definitely don’t believe the Yankees would trade away Montero.
But that’s just me.
MTU – chicken vindaloo tonight. I’m planning for it early.
This Stros lineup should prove to be a nice confidence builder for Burnett.
For the most part last year, it seemed that when Burnett had a pitching coach there, he pitched well. When EIland went AWOL, he fell apart….then his ocnfidence was shaken so much that he was inconsistent in second half.
I think AJ will do well with Rothschild there to guide him thru tough patches
How lame.
blake March 2nd, 2011 at 10:25 am
GB,
Yea I agree…..we don’t know Smith’s motives though, if he was merely dangling Liriano out there to gauge the market (as Towers did with Upton ) or if he’s really motivated to move him…..we’ll see.
———————————————————————————————————————-
Blake, my guess is that the Twins feel that he’s a ticking timebomb and they want to unload him. I don’t think Smith has an scruples about hiding facts as to his health and make-up, and if he can screw a team, he’d do it in a heartbeat, especially NYYs after four beatdowns in the post season since 2003
I’m interested to see the tweaks that have been made to AJ’s mechanics. Singleton was talking like it’s a significant difference from last year. Hopefully, that equals much better results.
It is odd that the lower hudson blog network is hosted in… canada?
Burnett will have a good april like he does every year. Even last year his april was good. We need to hold until June and see if he keeps it up.
Bojo:
Couldn’t disagree more. Burnett’s failure was his and his alone.
Bill Smith is a joke. How he kept his job after getting nothing for Santana and although Young had his first good year last year trading a quality guy in Garza and Bartlett to get Young is crazy
Bojo – I definitely agree that Rothschild’s style will be a huge plus for AJ if he starts to fall off the wagon.
ac1 – yes. It’s a wait and watch. Even if his April starts off terrible!
Mell March 2nd, 2011 at 10:36 am
Bojo:
Couldn’t disagree more.
__________
NP..we can disagree on this…Time will tell how well he does and how much a PC helps him.
Mell – How delightfully unfair of you.
ID -:lol:
Or stated another way, ID –
# GreenBeret7 March 2nd, 2011 at 9:51 am
Nothing wrong with what Cashman supposedly offered the Twins for Liriano. No more ridiculous than what Smith was demanding.
—————————————————-
What’s the rumored offer, GB? Is it the Joba or Nova and prospects one? Or has another one been written about?
“I’m interested to see the tweaks that have been made to AJ’s mechanics. Singleton was talking like it’s a significant difference from last year. Hopefully, that equals much better results.”
That definitely makes a difference. That and a positive mentor can make all the difference in the world to the right person.
Gb,
He may very well be a ticking time bomb…..and that’s why if you’re the Yankees you gamble a little on him but not a whole lot.
If anyone knows, since I haven’t read the specific posts talking about this, is it rumor that Cashman has offered players for Liriano, or is it confirmed? In other words, where did the information come from?
And whatever it was, who were the players supposedly mentioned?
Thanks.
Rosethal tweeted that Cashman offered Nova and Pena for Liriano at one point or another.
Did Cashman get caught up in the NBA trade deadline rumors and think you have to throw a scrub or two in to make salaries work?
Ramiro Pena? That can’t be serious.
“Bill Smith is a joke. How he kept his job after getting nothing for Santana and although Young had his first good year last year trading a quality guy in Garza and Bartlett to get Young is crazy”
Probably because the team has generally remained competitive in terms of making the postseason.
“I haven’t talked with the Twins in months,” the Yankees GM said by phone Tuesday. “I have no discussions going on right now. It’s not that I don’t want to talk (about a trade), but there’s no quality available, and I don’t think there will be until later in the season.”
Never mind, carry on. More of the stupid stuff that occurs when people want something to happen.
My counsel to myself on these things has always been the wisest. Pay NO attention to chatter. Believe it when it’s in black and white and has the organization imprimatur.
LGY – I dont see how trading away Nova solves any problems either so… its all nonsense.
blake March 2nd, 2011 at 10:49 am
Rosethal tweeted that Cashman offered Nova and Pena for Liriano at one point or another.
__________________
That is about where it should be, and as Nova performs better and better, he will be taken off the table.
Good for Cashman!
Yes. All nonsense.
“Ramiro Pena? That can’t be serious.”
Exactly. Twins already have Pena, but in Minnesota they call him Alexi Casilla.
And if it doesn’t get done, no big deal. The kids are showing they will be able to contribute later this season anyway.
Obviously Nova was the center piece, and Pena was probably his answer to a request for Nunez.
I would only make two prospects untouchable for Liriano.
Montero and Man Ban
Every team has a Pena just about…..that’s probably Cashman’s way of saying you aren’t getting Manny Banuelos.
If the Yankees are going to trade for a starter, the centerpiece will not be another starter that they need.
Mell,
But the majority of that team was put together before he even got there. How can you be offered Jon Lester plus or Hughes plus and turn it down and go with the Met package. Then this year he trades a decent catcher prospect for a relief pitcher.
LGY,
Those two plus Betances and Sanchez.
“Obviously Nova was the center piece, and Pena was probably his answer to a request for Nunez.”
If the Yankees believe Liriano is healthy enough to be an effective 2/3 starter for this team and they let Nunez get in the way of it, then Cashman is screwing up, IMO. Be like letting that big Ruskie getting in the way of the Knicks getting C. Anthony.
even roberts on wfan says he was impressed by banuelos and prior.
he also said ollie perez topped out at 83! ouch!
# LGY March 2nd, 2011 at 10:50 am
Did Cashman get caught up in the NBA trade deadline rumors and think you have to throw a scrub or two in to make salaries work?
Ramiro Pena? That can’t be serious.
——————————————
Quite an off season for Cashman.
I’m hoping that report is not true.
Joba, Warren, Adams or something comparable would be close to my max bid…..
ID
The Yankees don’t need Nova. Liriano would be a major upgrade from him.
Garcia in the 5 slot. Brackman Noesi Phelps Warren etc in case of injury or ineffectiveness.
Boys and their toys.
Cashman hasn’t talked to the Twins in months. Ivan Nova is very much in the Yankees plans.
But continue on as if this is a reality.
The Liriano rumor started because of a report that the Twins are scouting Ivan Nova and Joba Chamberlain, but there is no indication that they are ready to make Liriano available. He can’t be a free agent until after the 2012 season, so there’s no real urgency for the Twins to deal him yet, even if they don’t intend to sign him to a long-term deal, and there are lingering questions about his elbow that could make him a risky acquisition anyway.
Don’t want to burst your bubble but because someone is scouting a player doesn’t mean that player is on the table.
Have fun kids.
See you game time, when the real reality actually shows up somewhere!
rodg12 March 2nd, 2011 at 10:45 am
# GreenBeret7 March 2nd, 2011 at 9:51 am
Nothing wrong with what Cashman supposedly offered the Twins for Liriano. No more ridiculous than what Smith was demanding.
—————————————————-
What’s the rumored offer, GB? Is it the Joba or Nova and prospects one? Or has another one been written about?
———————————————————————————————————————-
Rodg, not sure of the validity of the offeres/counter-offers, but, after Smith demanded Banuelos and more, Cashman’s counter was Nova and Pena. No idea who made the first call, if any ere actually made, but, if I were Cashman, after I stopped laughing, I’d be very generous with the King’s (Don King) English and then blow a whistle into the phone and hang up. I just feel that there’s something up with Liriano’s health and/or make-up. A lot of talk about his desire to rehab properly, and from more than one corner. That, to me isn’t a red flag…that’s a stop sign.
Mell,
I wouldn’t let Nunez get in the way of a deal but I would try to keep him out…..if Jeter gets hurt and is out for a significant length of time I don’t want Pena playing every day.
Mell–
Why in the world would they feel 100% certain that Liriano is healthy enough or a good risk?
Again, article from YankeeAnalyst:
“They’re not happy with Liriano-Jay Jaffe details this meticulously in a recent piece on Baseball Prospectus (subs req’d). He’s had a history of hiding injuries and not communicating how he feels to the team. He has also been accused not doing his rehab work by the Twins, which is why they felt it took him so long to come back from Tommy John surgery. Further, as recently as this spring it was revealed he wasn’t doing his shoulder strengthening exercises this off season, which resulted in a shoulder strain in early camp. They also think that with his violent delivery and heavy reliance on the slider, he’s a good candidate to break down more as he gets older. Given the way the Twins operate the time to sell would be now, not later. They’d rather sell him a year too early than wait, have him get hurt and be worthless.”
The guy hides injuries…doesn’t do his prescribed work to stay healthy, and already has a shoulder strain….
I will never understand people’s resentment towards Cashman.
The man has NOT panicked and made a bad trade for a mediocre starter. This is a good thing. He hasn’t sold the farm for an injury riddled ground ball pitcher. He hasn’t overpaid Kevin Millwood to “come out and throw 200 innings” regardless of the result.
The Yankees 4 and 5 starters have performed below league average for the last 10 years. You don’t really need a whole lot in those spots. Certainly not worth blowing up the farm to bandaid the back of the rotation.
LGY – I would start nova over garcia/colon any day of the week.
blake,
I know I am in the minority on this (maybe by myself), but I wouldn’t make Betances untouchable for Liriano.
Where is Wave?
He usually takes an unpopular position in trades. Need some backup on this one.
“LGY – I would start nova over garcia/colon any day of the week.”
———————-
If given the choice, probably.
But, how likely is it that Nova in his first full year pitches to a lower ERA than Garcia next year?
The guy hides injuries…doesn’t do his prescribed work to stay healthy, and already has a shoulder strain….”
Change of scenery might do him good….maybe Sabathia would positively influence him….its worth a gamble at the rift price but not a big price.
I know I am in the minority on this (maybe by myself), but I wouldn’t make Betances untouchable for Liriano.
========================
lgy
where is the logic?
Trip:
He’s been in the Twins front office since 1995 and the team has averaged 90 wins a season since he took over as top dog. I’m not making excuses for the guy, but relative to most mid market teams, they’ve enjoyed a pretty sucessful decade.
Liriano apparently has a multi-million dollar arm and a 2 cent brain. If the guy won’t put in the effort to take care of himself, he is certain to have future elbow and shoulder problems.
I wouldn’t trade for him unless it was lower level prospects–which probably won’t get the deal done.
And that would be fine by me.
LGY – Pretty good? It’s not like Garcia is (or ever was) any form of a dominant pitcher, nor is a 4 ERA hard to replicate…
Next year I don’t want any of these clowns in the rotation, so I wouldn’t consider Garcia’s performance “next year” of any significance.
“Why in the world would they feel 100% certain that Liriano is healthy enough or a good risk?”
Don’t think they’d enter into this or any other trade w/o some physicals being done, Bojo.
Mell – They have averaged 82 wins per year since 1996. Not 90.
“lgy
where is the logic?”
——————
Liriano is a stud, likely to be the best pitcher available over the next 2 years, Betances has had injury issues of his own.
The Yankees have a ton of arms. Aside from Kei Igawa, they are not looking to collect AAA pitching records. I see Liriano as the best guy available in the next couple years coupled with a questionable backend rotation from the Yankees. I think adding Liriano would give the Yanks the best overall staff (rotation and bullpen), so I think it is time to use our assets and strike.
the twins asked for banuelos as a way of saying they’re not interested in moving liriano.
cashman countered with nova as a way of saying they’re not really that hot for liriano.
“LGY – Pretty good? It’s not like Garcia is (or ever was) any form of a dominant pitcher, nor is a 4 ERA hard to replicate…”
——————–
A 4 ERA isn’t hard to replicate?
Phil Hughes, a pitcher who is way more talented than Ivan Nova, just pitched to a 4.12 ERA in his first full year starting.
I would jump through hoops if Nova can give them a 4.50 ERA.
Thanks Ys Guy, I think that about sums it up!
Mell – and in the 3 years he’s been Gm nothing he has done shows up on the major league level. Unless signing Jim Thome and Carl Pavano are the brilliant moves you are looking for in a GM.
santana is better than liriano and is likely to be available this offseason if not sooner.
ID:
Smith has been the GM for the past three seasons. He was VP, AGM from 1995-2007. Looking again, I see he’s actually been with the Twins in some capacity since 1986.
Mell March 2nd, 2011 at 11:09 am
“Why in the world would they feel 100% certain that Liriano is healthy enough or a good risk?”
Don’t think they’d enter into this or any other trade w/o some physicals being done, Bojo.
_______________
It’s not just about the current physical status…to me, it is also about that player’s commitment to staying healthy and doing the work required. That is the knock on Liriano.
You seem to be assuming he will be fine and thus willing to give up more than I would. I think Cashmon, like myself, believes there is real risk in how long he stays healthy.
Liriano is not even the ace of their staff….he is unreliable and injury prone. Give up your best prospect?, have a little patience.
2012 FA Starters
———————
Starting Pitchers
Mark Buehrle CWS
Chris Carpenter STL *
Aaron Cook COL *
Kyle Davies KC
Zach Duke ARI
Edwin Jackson CWS
Scott Kazmir LAA *
Paul Maholm PIT
Jason Marquis WAS
Scott Olsen PIT *
Roy Oswalt PHI *
Oliver Perez NYM
Joel Pineiro LAA
Brian Tallet STL
Tim Wakefield BOS
C.J. Wilson TEX
Yeah, that’s an ugly list…
“santana is better than liriano and is likely to be available this offseason if not sooner.”
——————-
He is also due 77.5 million over the next 3 years and just had major shoulder surgery. I’ll take Liriano.
LGY March 2nd, 2011 at 11:09 am
“lgy
where is the logic?”
——————
Liriano is a stud, likely to be the best pitcher available over the next 2 years, Betances has had injury issues of his own.
The Yankees have a ton of arms. Aside from Kei Igawa,
_______________
Reluctantly, I might part with Kei Igawa for Liriano, but not Betances. His arm problem was not as severe as Liriano’s and also, he has shown the hunger and desire to work to get healthy–apparently unlike Liriano.
Being the assistant GM to Terry Ryan amounts to getting his coffee in the morning and making sure his pencils are sharpened.
“Liriano is not even the ace of their staff….he is unreliable and injury prone. Give up your best prospect?, have a little patience.”
——————-
He is definitely the ace of their staff. Who is? Pavano??
Liriano’s major injury was TJS which tons of pitchers have nowadays, including Brackman.
Is Brackman injury prone? What about Betances?
While I agree Liriano could be the best available proven front end starter, I don’t think the Twins will move him unless Cashman is willing to deal Betances or Banuelos. Obviously, the Twins have been stuck on Banuelos up to this point, thus no deal.
“Unless signing Jim Thome and Carl Pavano are the brilliant moves you are looking for in a GM”
Brilliant? No. Better than obtaining Nick Johnson and Javier Vazquez? Probably, yeah.
liriano got 2 AL cy young’s?
LGY – No matter how many pitchers have it, TJS is not “routine”.
He lied about his health and didn’t do his rehab work in the offseason.
Pavano 2.0
I don’t remember this enthusiasm when I recommended signing Pavano a few months ago.
Sometimes I actually find myself feeling bad for the Twins….
Then I just laugh to myself about how silly I am.
ID,
As long as he passes a physical now, I don’t really care what happened with his past rehab.
I wanted Pavano too!
Pitching to a 4.00 ERA in this league, division, and ballpark is nothing to sneeze at.
A guy like that would probably win 15+ games for this team.
Mell – Actually no, I would make the Nick Johnson and Javier Vazquez signings last offseason again.
You can’t just look at things in hindsight and go “man, we shoulda done THIS!”.
Even signing Pavano, at the time, was a good move. It just didn’t work out.
The world does not exist through rose-colored hindsight goggles.
Mell,
You are going to really compare Bill Smith to Cashman? Where is Smith’s Nick Swisher trade? Or better yet where is Cashman’s Santana trade?
One attack on Cashman I wish would stop: Crucifying him over Pavano.
NO ONE could have predicted the complete waste of space that guy was on our team. That entire situation falls on the shoulders of the American Idle, not Cash.
Pavano is more trusted than Liriano.
Everybody looks for the missing link, the player who will put you over the top.
Just don’t get the feeling Liriano is.
The Twins really have no reason to move Liriano this year. They won’t lose their arbitration case with him so he only stands to make $4-5mil next season.
“liriano got 2 AL cy young’s?”
———————–
I’ll take the 27 year old under team control for 2 more seasons.
You can have the 32 year old coming off major shoulder surgery and is due $26(!!!!) million per year the next 3 seasons.
I think the odds are in my favor of which move works out best.
For those interested, Sickels has an interview posted with Mark Newman:
http://www.minorleagueball.com.....sident-for
LGY March 2nd, 2011 at 11:17 am
Liriano’s major injury was TJS which tons of pitchers have nowadays, including Brackman
_____________
Again, Liriano throws over 34% sliders with a violent arm action that has many predicting another elbow blow out (like Christian Garcia). And his delivery also puts strain on his shoulder and–since he doesn’t seem inclined to care about it enought o work out as prescribed–he seems like a candidate for shoulder problems as well.
The comment about getting Litiano to create a powerhouse rotation for next year also strikes me as curious.
I would be very happy with CC, Hughes, Banuelos, Betances, Nova, Burnett and some of the other prospectrs competing for the rotation.
LGY,
I see your point but I think Betances’s upside is too high to deal for a guy with significant injury risk when he’s so close to free agency.
“I would be very happy with CC, Hughes, Banuelos, Betances, Nova, Burnett and some of the other prospectrs competing for the rotation.”
———————-
The odds of that rotation happening next season are extremely slim.
4 homegrown guys?
LGY – Are the B’s 2 years away? I’m not so sure…
“Mell – Actually no, I would make the Nick Johnson and Javier Vazquez signings last offseason again”
Half agree. No excuse for signing Nick Johnson over Thome, but I was as happy as anybody with the Vazquez move. Just didn’t come together.
Also Im not sure how much of an injury risk Betances is anymore. He’s bigger, has improved his delievery and has already had TJ surgery…..every pitcher carries injury risk but I don’t see him as carrying more than average.
actually after this season the guaranteed on santana is $55M unless he reaches his incentives the option for 2014. in which case he would certainly be worth every penny of that.
2011
CC-Liriano-Hughes-Burnett-Garcia (Brackmonster, Noesi, Phelps, etc backing up)
2012
CC-Liriano-Hughes-Burnett-Banuelos
mmmmm. Tasty.
LGY March 2nd, 2011 at 11:23 am
I’ll take the 27 year old under team control for 2 more seasons.
You can have the 32 year old coming off major shoulder surgery and is due $26(!!!!) million per year the next 3 seasons.
_________________
I had mentioned a day or two ago that there was ana rticle which described Santana’s operation and the strong chances that he would come back stronger.
Here is that article:
http://riveraveblues.com/2011/.....f-2-42009/
And here are the pertinent quotes:
“He also noted that pitchers with this type of injury often return stronger than before, and that there is little risk of recurrence. As Levitz said, “Over all there is not a lot of damage to the shoulder with this injury…Once they close the hole in the soft tissue, it should never be a problem again.”
and
“One thing we don’t know is to what extent Santana pitched through discomfort or pain in 2010 before acknowledging his injury. We also don’t know if the gradual destruction of his shoulder ligaments was responsible for the decline in performance. The quote from Carroll’s source above seems to confirm that the pitcher will likely experience discomfort, weakness and a loss of velocity before actually needing surgery to repair the injury. It would be logical to expect a bounceback in velocity and strikeout stuff, but within any injury there is a large amount of risk and variance. It all hinges on how well Santana heals.”
“Where is Wave? He usually takes an unpopular position in trades.”
I would trade Banuelos or Betances if necessary to get Liriano. Anyone but Montero.
How’s that?
LGY March 2nd, 2011 at 11:25 am
The odds of that rotation happening next season are extremely slim.
4 homegrown guys?
________
Don’t tell SF…
Very informative interview by John Sickles with Mark Newman. More than the usual names to watch out for.
http://www.minorleagueball.com.....sident-for
“actually after this season the guaranteed on santana is $55M unless he reaches his incentives the option for 2014. in which case he would certainly be worth every penny of that.”
—————–
So, now we are waiting until the offseason to trade for Santana? What about this season?
Ok then, $28 million per year for 2 years of 33 and 34 year old Johan Santana.
GF, you stole my article.
It was a great read on more than the usual suspects.
CC-Liriano-Hughes-Burnett-Garcia (Brackmonster, Noesi, Phelps, etc backing up)
2012
CC-Liriano-Hughes-Burnett-Banuelos
mmmmm. Tasty.
______________________
2011–CC, Hughes, Burnett, Nova, Betances or Banuelos (DL–Liriano)
2012–CC, Hughes, Betances, Banuelos, Nova (DL–Liriano)
mmmmmm. Wasty.
LGY March 2nd, 2011 at 11:29 am
2011
CC-Liriano-Hughes-Burnett-Garcia (Brackmonster, Noesi, Phelps, etc backing up)
2012
CC-Liriano-Hughes-Burnett-Banuelos
mmmmm. Tasty.
______
escept to get Liriano they would have to get Banuelos in return.
LGY,
I don’t think your point is ridiculous I just don’t agree. However without knowing the ins and outs of Liriano’s medicals and his attitude/frame of mind etc is tough to assess the situation. If Liriano duplicated his 2010 in both 2011 and 2012 then it would be worth it….depends on how likely you think that is. Im not sold……
you’d rather have the guy who doesnt want to rehab and is a huge injury risk over santana after he has already come back (likely post asb) and pitched?
this is johan santana. last season he was great. people want to say he has diminished velocity, blah blah blah, the guy went 11-9 2.98 199 innings, 179 hits and they lost 7 games he left tied or ahead.
he has already shown that he can make the change from power pitcher to contact pitcher as he gets older.
id take santana any day over liriano. and i liike liriano but johan is an ace.
escept
* except.
If the asking price is Manny Banuelos for Liriano, I’d rather pursue Gio Gonzalez and hope that he becomes available at some point. Considering Liriano’s higher salary, looming free agency, 2 TJ surgeries and reported questionable makeup, it makes it a much easier decision.
Guys, guys, guys… you’re all putting CC in your 2012 rotations. Didn’t you hear? He’s opting out!
LGY–
Given that Sanatan works his butt off to recover, and he is also a warrior even without his best stuff, I would take him at $27.5 for 2 years over Liriano. Money isn’t the object…getting value for a player who is on the field is.
Also consider…due to surgery, Sanatan has now had more time to rehab both his knee from 3 years ago and his elbow from over about 2 years ago. His slider was coming back as a power pitch to augment his fastball and change in 2010 before he went down.
So, it is likely that when he comes back, he will have recovered his fastball, slider, and change….coupled with his control and brains, he is worth Cliff Lee money.
“Guys, guys, guys… you’re all putting CC in your 2012 rotations. Didn’t you hear? He’s opting out!”
But he’s going to opt right back in too, IMO.
The difference between Liriano’s injury and Betances’ injury is that Liriano’s seems to be on the move. Now it’s his shoulder and some say that it’s moved to his head.
Gb,
Great interview….thanks for the link.
Santana is an injured SP who may not pitch at all this coming season. He is owed almost $ 100 million for the next four years. There is more risk with Santana than Liriano, with his injury and the financial obligation going forward.
I am looking forward to watch A.J. pitch today. I could care less about his pitching line today.
As long as he reaches his pitch limit, that is what is most important.
So much is going to be made out of this pitching performance today, but I guess the media has to write a story about something.
Go get ‘em A.J.
“Don’t tell SF…”
—————-
And how many years of of Sanchez sucking did it take San Fran to get that? Also, one example still keep the odds at slim.
Annnnd…wait a second…
Aren’t you the guy that would trade Montero for Gio Gonzalez!?! And you won’t trade Betances for Liriano?
“How’s that?”
—————–
That’s good Wave.
I need some backup. Getting hit on all angles here. Even have a guy coming at me with Johan Santana
Yeah, give me a $75 mil a year pitcher with a bum elbow, a bum knee and a bum shoulder and allow me to pay a high price for the priviledge. The only place those “he’ll come back better, stronger, faster” is from the Santana and Mets camps.
How many years of.Bumgardner before they won a championship?
By the way, Cashman’s long-term goal seems to be 5 home grown starting pitchers…not just 4.
His strategy means he is not trading away those pitchers who have upside to be a top of rotation starter, like Betances, Banuelso, and hopefully Brackman and maybe even Joba.
Second tier pitchers–sure.
But I too would rather see him pursue Santana and Gio Gonzales at mid-season…
Remember–we don’t need to have our rotation set with aces until October. Our lineup, bullpen, and defense will get us a ton of wins with our current rotation.
“Yeah, give me a $75 mil a year pitcher…”
There’s a $75MM a year pitcher out there and he’s not a Yankee? How did that happen???
blake March 2nd, 2011 at 11:41 am
Gb,
Great interview….thanks for the link.
———————————————————————————————————————-
You’re welcome, Blake. I’m glad that you didn’t thank that thief, GF for stealing that link 5 minutes before mine.
I was going to link it about the same time as GF put his up, but, decided to read all of hit. Looks like Sickles and Newman like the center fielders, pitchers and catchers a lot.
“Don’t tell SF…”
Aren’t you the guy that would trade Montero for Gio Gonzalez!?! And you won’t trade Betances for Liriano?
______________
Go back and read what I said exactly. I said that IF Cashman were going to undervalue Montero like he did in the Lee trade, THEN the guy I would prefer to get back is Gio Gonzales. Even over Liriano.
And no, I was not proposing that Montero be actively moved for Gio. There is a difference.
And no, I wouldn’t trade a top prospect for Liriano.
Many folks seem to believe we need to give up our best to get these guys, when other teams get away with waiting and giving less back. Have patience. Our farm system has the team in a position of great strength.
GreenBeret7 March 2nd, 2011 at 11:43 am
Game, set and match.
What reason do people have to believe that Gio Gonzalez, who doesn’t see free agency til after the 2015 season, is going to be made available anytime soon?
GreenBeret7 March 2nd, 2011 at 11:43 am
Yeah, give me a $75 mil a year pitcher with a bum elbow, a bum knee and a bum shoulder and allow me to pay a high price for the priviledge. The only place those “he’ll come back better, stronger, faster” is from the Santana and Mets camps.
__________________
It will be known one way or another what he has when he returns. Then the facts will be there rather than speculation.
My point is to not write him off without seeing what is there.
Mell – The same reason people think that Liriano, who isn’t a FA until 2013, is available? (hint: he isn’t)
Wave Your Hat March 2nd, 2011 at 11:45 am
Santana is owed almost $ 100 million for the balance of his contract. ( 2014 is a club option @ $ 25 mil. )
“It will be known one way or another what he has when he returns. Then the facts will be there rather than speculation.”
Kinda the same way we’re going to find out about Liriano too, right?
GB,
Lol I didn’t see GF’s. Yea a lot of info on a lot of guys …..again sounds like Montero is gonna catch and is gonna be a stud…..under 2.0 times to 2nd isn’t really something you can argue with if he’s doing that consistently. Piazza never could do that.
Mick et al
LGY March 2nd, 2011 at 11:17 am
“Liriano is not even the ace of their staff….he is unreliable and injury prone. Give up your best prospect?, have a little patience.”
——————-
He is definitely the ace of their staff. Who is? Pavano??
Liriano’s major injury was TJS which tons of pitchers have nowadays, including Brackman.
Is Brackman injury prone? What about Betances?
______
OK, I am loath to trade either Betances or Banuelos, but Liriano not the ace of the Minn. staff and not one of the very best pitchers in mlb? You have got to be kidding me. You can say he *may or may not* be an injury risk, but you cannot disregard his 2010 numbers and his ace-like status before the injury.
Liriano had a CY Young kind of year in ’10. He had 9.44 K/9, a 2.66 FIP which was 3rd in the whole majors, he had the fourth best HR/9 rate and the highest percentage of swings and misses of any SP in the majors. He is also a lefty. The argument that you don’t want to trade our studly Banuleos or Betances or that he may be an injury risk is one thing. To say he isn’t one of the top pitchers of 2010 and that he doesn’t have nasty nasty stuff is ludicrous. You will never get him for Joba or Noesi or lmao, Kei Igawa.
Mell March 2nd, 2011 at 11:48 am
What reason do people have to believe that Gio Gonzalez, who doesn’t see free agency til after the 2015 season, is going to be made available anytime soon?
______________
Not much–which is why I feel Santana is the more likely target IF Cashman needs to make a move.
And again, as was pointed out by Ys Guy, the Sanatan contract would be 2 years at $55M guaranteed…not $75M or $100M…use the facts.
Liriano was one of the 10 best pitchers in the majors last year and is relatively cheap and under team control for two years. I’d trade any of the minor league pitchers to get him.
The chances of any minor league pitcher getting to where Liriano actually is right now are much lower than some people here seem to think.
I’d prefer not to trade the best minor league pitcher if avoidable, but if it isn’t avoidable I’d do it. Seems like an easy call to me.
It is my opinion that Cash should stick to his guns and stay with the top flight prospects that are almost ready, not give them away for injured SP’s on other teams.
Mell March 2nd, 2011 at 11:50 am
“It will be known one way or another what he has when he returns. Then the facts will be there rather than speculation.”
Kinda the same way we’re going to find out about Liriano too, right?
_______________
Not at all.
Liriano is currently helathy but seems at risk for breakdown due to his delivery and his hiding injuries. Santana will have worked his way back with a very good prognosis…If he performs, he is likely to be healthy going forward (as much as any other pitcher)
How many years of.Bumgardner before they won a championship?
————————
That’s why we are keeping Banuelos blake!
# GreenBeret7 March 2nd, 2011 at 11:00 am
Rodg, not sure of the validity of the offeres/counter-offers, but, after Smith demanded Banuelos and more, Cashman’s counter was Nova and Pena. No idea who made the first call, if any ere actually made, but, if I were Cashman, after I stopped laughing, I’d be very generous with the King’s (Don King) English and then blow a whistle into the phone and hang up. I just feel that there’s something up with Liriano’s health and/or make-up. A lot of talk about his desire to rehab properly, and from more than one corner. That, to me isn’t a red flag…that’s a stop sign.
——————————————————–
Yeah, there has to be something up there. Could easily be a combination of the health/make-up thing. Question then becomes…if you’re Cash, at what price are you willing to take that risk? Personally, if Nova/Nunez/Adams got it done, I’d easily be willing to do that. Liriano’s talent is that high and my hope would be that some of the make-up concerns would go away when he’s introduced to the veterans in the Yankees clubhouse and how they go about their business.
Also, thanks for the link to the Newman. Interview. Good stuff.
yankeefeminista,
Yet the Mets wound up getting a better pitcher in Santana for less. Times have changed. Teams don’t give up boat loads of top prospects anymore
BoJo March 2nd, 2011 at 11:49 am
GreenBeret7 March 2nd, 2011 at 11:43 am
Yeah, give me a $75 mil a year pitcher with a bum elbow, a bum knee and a bum shoulder and allow me to pay a high price for the priviledge. The only place those “he’ll come back better, stronger, faster” is from the Santana and Mets camps.
__________________
It will be known one way or another what he has when he returns. Then the facts will be there rather than speculation.
My point is to not write him off without seeing what is there.
———————————————————————————————————————-
Santana isn’t worth a plugged nickel right now. He certainly won’t be worth anything until June or July at the earliest.
LGY March 2nd, 2011 at 11:55 am
How many years of.Bumgardner before they won a championship?
———–
Last year was his first. (partial year)
GreenBeret7 March 2nd, 2011 at 11:56 am
Where am I saying trade for him now? I totally agree that he must be seen at trading deadline before any trade were to occur.
My point is that we can wait until then with our current rotation, bullpen, lineup, and defense, and IF we need a pitcher for play-offs, check out Sanatan in July/August.
ID:
Apples and oranges. Liriano is a free agent after next season. Three years in advance of Gonzalez. I don’t know whether Liriano is legitimately avialable right now or not, but the Twins do have some financial considerations relative to him that will present themselves in the not too distant future. Not the case with the A’s and Gonzalez who hasn’t even hit arbitration yet.
Triple Short of a Cycle March 2nd, 2011 at 11:55 am
yankeefeminista,
Yet the Mets wound up getting a better pitcher in Santana for less. Times have changed. Teams don’t give up boat loads of top prospects anymore.
_______
I agree to a point, but an “A” prospect or even two would have to be included in the group; the players people are bandying around for Liriano will not even fetch him now.
I would like to keep what we have and see those prospects develop. However, my more salient point is that Liriano is an elite pitcher. People discuss him as if he were some middle of rotation cast off.
Here are the ‘facts’.
Johan Santana lhp
6 years/$137.5M (2008-13), plus 2014 club optio
11:$22.5M, 12:$24M, 13:$25.5M, 14:$25M club option ($5.5M buyout)
Full no-trade clause.
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.c.....-mets.html
I do think that pitching behind CC would probably be beneficial to Liriano…..
Mell–
3 years for $39M is a financial consideration for an ace? I don’t think so…
The Twins interest in moving him has to be something else.
A healthy Johan Santana is worth 55 million over the next 2 seasons, especially if he doesn’t cost any significant prospects. However, as SJ44 has stated, the Mets don’t want to deal with the devil. They really should be able to find a taker for Santana’s contract if he is healthy. Texas is one target and any other team who pushed hard and was willing to pay large long-term dollars for Cliff Lee. The Nationals are another one. The Angels. Theoretically, it should be easy for the Mets to avoid surrendering Johan Santana to their crosstown rivals.
The Mets and Yankees will not consummate any deal for Santana.
rodg12 March 2nd, 2011 at 11:55 am
# GreenBeret7 March 2nd, 2011 at 11:00 am
Rodg, not sure of the validity of the offeres/counter-offers, but, after Smith demanded Banuelos and more, Cashman’s counter was Nova and Pena. No idea who made the first call, if any ere actually made, but, if I were Cashman, after I stopped laughing, I’d be very generous with the King’s (Don King) English and then blow a whistle into the phone and hang up. I just feel that there’s something up with Liriano’s health and/or make-up. A lot of talk about his desire to rehab properly, and from more than one corner. That, to me isn’t a red flag…that’s a stop sign.
——————————————————–
Yeah, there has to be something up there. Could easily be a combination of the health/make-up thing. Question then becomes…if you’re Cash, at what price are you willing to take that risk? Personally, if Nova/Nunez/Adams got it done, I’d easily be willing to do that. Liriano’s talent is that high and my hope would be that some of the make-up concerns would go away when he’s introduced to the veterans in the Yankees clubhouse and how they go about their business.
Also, thanks for the link to the Newman. Interview. Good stuff.
———————————————————————————————————————-
Adams is still suffering from plantar fasciitis according to Mark Newman. Maybe substitute Joseph. I assume, though, that they’d want more than that, such as adding bullpen (Pope) and another near ready starter like Warren or Phelps. Not sure that adding DJ Mitchell would change things, though, I would try.
yankeefeminista,
I agree. I would like to keep what we have too. In the off chance that they go for a Joba/Nova and 2 other mid level guys I do it. I agree that Liriano is an injury risk but to say he is not a front line starter is foolish. he would be a lot of teams number 1 guy and most teams number 2
“However, my more salient point is that Liriano is an elite pitcher. People discuss him as if he were some middle of rotation cast off.”
That’s because many people have stars in their eyes when it comes to prospects. They don’t want to trade the prospect, so they have to reason backwards to devalue the player for which the prospect would be traded.
Wow Vineyard–you are so close witht he right data but still so clueless about interpreting it.
They Yankees would not by paying for 2011 until late in August…so call it $6M
Then the guaranteed money is
2012–$24M
2013- $25.5M
Opt out guarantee- $$5.5M
Total guaranteed= can you do the rest?
Hint (Spoiler ALERT) The answer is only $61M is guaranteed, and that goes to $55M if the Mets pick up the remainder of 2011 money in order to get better prospects.
Try to keep up rather than just throwing your garbage commenta st me…okay?
Liriano could be one of the best pitchers in baseball. However, considering his past 2 TJ surgeries, violent motion, reliance on the slider, and reported lack of motivation when it comes to conditioning, he also could be one of the most DL’d pitchers in baseball in the future.
While I doubt Bill Smith would dangle damaged goods since it’s bad business, I understand where he might want to sell high on Liriano before Liriano reinjures himself. It’s a pre-emptive move for the Twins and a risky one for the Yankees.
Banuelos is drawing comparisons to Johan Santana from established veteran major leaguers.
Do you really want to trade him for a 2 year gamble?
Wave,
But you are ignoring the lack of track record, injury risks, and proximity to free agency with Liriano……if the Twins are willing to move him now then there is a reason and that is a bit troubling to me.
“…if the Twins are willing to move him now then there is a reason and that is a bit troubling to me.”
Couldnt agree more, blake. And if they’re willing to move him to the Yankees of all teams, I’m even more weary.
If you are paying Santana 28 mill per season to be in the rotation what rotation are these 4 to 5 homegrown pitchers pitchin in?
The next televised game isn’t until Friday right?
Bret The Hitman March 2nd, 2011 at 12:02 pm
A healthy Johan Santana is worth 55 million over the next 2 seasons, especially if he doesn’t cost any significant prospects. However, as SJ44 has stated, the Mets don’t want to deal with the devil. They really should be able to find a taker for Santana’s contract if he is healthy. Texas is one target and any other team who pushed hard and was willing to pay large long-term dollars for Cliff Lee. The Nationals are another one. The Angels.
_________________
And I disagree with SJ44…Time will tell.
But my points to him were:
1) Wilpons hired Alderson because he has torn down financially stressed teams twice before and has the right experience for what the team needs to do now
2) Alderson has the backing of Selig and won’t give a crap about short-term fan reactions to a trade with the Yankees…he’ll get the best deal he can
3) The tema that gets Santana may have to eat a contract liek Castillo or Pere–Angels or Texas might balk at that. Yankees won’t IF Santana is healthy.
4) Yankees will have the low level prospects to package back to Mets to make it worth Alderson’s while…
These are not the typical times for Yankees/Mets relationship. The financials are a major motivator.
# Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2011 at 12:11 pm
The next televised game isn’t until Friday right?
————————————————————
Today’s game is on YES.
The mets are not short the $20m of santana’s contract, they are short hundreds of millions of dollars. they are not going to be moving players contracts to solve this problem.
Bojo, Having just read it, I would argue that the Baseball Prospectus story on Liriano is rather critical of the Twins handling of Liriano, and in fact questions the Twins’ motives.
Anyway, I am out until later. Be good mechanically, AJ & Go Yanks!
Or perhaps certain people have a better line on certain prospects than you do.
Manny Banuelos has a very good chance to be the #1 LH starting pitching prospect in baseball by the end of this season. He’s not even 20 years old yet.
Theoretically, he is under the Yankees control for the next 6 years at a minimum.
He’s not a guy you deal for someone with Liriano’s history.
2 elbow surgeries, shoulder issues, and one year he was able to pitch 190+ innings.
That’s not “elite”. Certainly not elite enough to trade Banuelos in any proposed deal.
Betances? Given his injury history, I could understand people being tempted.
At this point though, I’d be inclined to keep both of them (unless King Felix ever came on the market) and take my chances with them.
LGY March 2nd, 2011 at 12:11 pm
If you are paying Santana 28 mill per season to be in the rotation what rotation are these 4 to 5 homegrown pitchers pitchin in?
__________
From reading your comments here before, I know you are a pretty smart guy and don’t have reading problems, so I must assume that the big “IF” comments I have been making about possibly needing a play-off ace in August were interpreted by you as a typo on my part.
I am saying that the Yankees have the talent and plan to develop their own, but IF they need someone in August, Santana would be the one I hope they target.
Bojo,
I don’t think you can safely assume a healthy Johan Santana with a mere 2 year financial obligation is restricted to one market. The Rangers, Angels and Nationals were willing to go all-in for Cliff Lee. If the Mets front office/owners have a choice, they won’t send him to NYC. In fact, they would probably settle for lesser prospects or less financial relief. It’s a different story if there’s no market for Johan Santana. But we’re talking about Johan Santana.
blake-
I’m not ignoring Liriano’s proximity to free agency. But look how long it took the Yanks to get Hughes to where he is. Who’s to say it won’t take ManBan that long as well? Or longer? And is ManBan immune from injury risk?
Also, I assume the Yanks would give Liriano a physical and wouldn’t trade for him if they didn’t like what they saw.
Blake, the three young catchers that I want to see more of is Sanchez, Murphy and Higashioka. Pat M., likes him a lot and says he’s better on defense that all of them that he’s seen (Romine, etc). His bat has dragged the first two years, but, he is so young that he has the time. Not sure Murphy stays at catcher, though. Great bat, athletic…another corner player, perhaps? Also, at 3rd/1st is Rob Lyerly…big bat, but, so far, not much glove at third and first.
Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2011 at 12:15 pm
The mets are not short the $20m of santana’s contract, they are short hundreds of millions of dollars. they are not going to be moving players contracts to solve this problem.
______________
If I were a betting man, I’d take that bet. They’ll move as many players as they can by TD IMO
Shocking that Heyman gets first comment from Boras about Tex.
Not professional to name Tex’s new business association before Tex did though.
SI_JonHeyman Scott boras on mark teixeira, who left him for the jonas group. “I had the great honor of working for mark for over a decade.”
SI_JonHeyman Boras: “it was a great privilege seeing him grow into 1 of the best players, become an all-star and earn a world championship.”
Wave Your Hat March 2nd, 2011 at 12:16 pm
blake-
I’m not ignoring Liriano’s proximity to free agency. But look how long it took the Yanks to get Hughes to where he is. Who’s to say it won’t take ManBan that long as well? Or longer? And is ManBan immune from injury risk?
_______________
IIRC, the major reason Cashman signed CC and AJ was to buy time for the gradual development and working into the rotation of his pitching prospects. He won’t rush them until they are ready, but given their performance to date, you can bet he holds them.
Wave,
Nobody is immune to injury risk….Im just not willing to trade 6 years of Banuelos for 2 years of anybody unless I have a really good idea of what Id be getting with those 2 years……and with Liriano I just don’t.
“IIRC, the major reason Cashman signed CC and AJ was to buy time for the gradual development and working into the rotation of his pitching prospects.”
Nah, he signed them to win now.
The Yankees aren’t taking on Johan Santana, his contractual obligation, AND doing a new deal with CC, when/if he opts out.
So, it comes down to whether you want Santana or Sabathia because the Yankees aren’t carrying both.
I’ll take CC.
Alderson wasn’t hired to conduct a “fire sale” of player.
You can dump the entire payroll and it doesn’t put a dent into the Mets financial problems. They are massive.
He was hired because it way the only way Bud saw as a way he the Wilpon’s could keep the team because Sandy has a great rep within the banking/investing community.
This is about trying to save the franchise for the Wilpon’s and not about dumping a high priced player(s). Any GM can do that.
GB,
Me too….wish MILB.com had more games and better film quality.
Bret The Hitman March 2nd, 2011 at 12:16 pm
Bojo,
I don’t think you can safely assume a healthy Johan Santana with a mere 2 year financial obligation is restricted to one market. The Rangers, Angels and Nationals were willing to go all-in for Cliff Lee. If the Mets front office/owners have a choice, they won’t send him to NYC. In fact, they would probably settle for lesser prospects or less financial relief. It’s a different story if there’s no market for Johan Santana. But we’re talking about Johan Santana.
____________
I understand your point, but not sure I agree. I think it would be true with almost any other GM, but to me, Alderson is the wild card. He doesn’t need the job, and doesn’t care about what is going on around him. He mission from Selig is to get that franchise back on track, and I think he will go for best package of prospects to get it done…even if it is the Yankees.
SI_JonHeyman Jp morgan chase is NOT working w/ mets on new loan. maybe ny post should leave the heavy lifting to ny times.
Or maybe you right….#mysterybank.
Wave Your Hat March 2nd, 2011 at 12:21 pm
“IIRC, the major reason Cashman signed CC and AJ was to buy time for the gradual development and working into the rotation of his pitching prospects.”
Nah, he signed them to win now.
___________
Nope…Do I really need to find the quote where he said he was buying a bridge to the future or can you do it by yourself? If I need to get it, I’ll post tomorrow (have to wrap up soon).
Tampa Yankees Roster as of now.
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.....8;sid=t587
“Nope…Do I really need to find the quote where he said he was buying a bridge to the future or can you do it by yourself? If I need to get it, I’ll post tomorrow (have to wrap up soon).”
Bojo, I don’t care what he said.
SJ44 March 2nd, 2011 at 12:21 pm
The Yankees aren’t taking on Johan Santana, his contractual obligation, AND doing a new deal with CC, when/if he opts out.
So, it comes down to whether you want Santana or Sabathia because the Yankees aren’t carrying both
______________
So explain why they were willing to sign Lee for 6 years at $25M per, as opposed to 2 years of Santana at $27.5M.
As for the comment about Alderson, we are saying the same thing–his job is to save the franchise. We just disagree with the tactics if you think he isn’t selling off player contracts.
Banuelos is further along in his development than Hughes was at similar stages. He’s also LH.
Injury concerns? That’s true with any pitcher.
Right now, given their respective histories, Liriano is a bigger injury risk than Banuelos.
If Minnesota truly wants to move him, a deal excluding, Montero, Baneulos, Betances and perhaps Sanchez is the only way the Yankees should proceed.
Wave Your Hat March 2nd, 2011 at 12:25 pm
“Nope…Do I really need to find the quote where he said he was buying a bridge to the future or can you do it by yourself? If I need to get it, I’ll post tomorrow (have to wrap up soon).”
Bojo, I don’t care what he said.
____________
Fine–saves me the trouble of finding the comment.
injury and money aside, the biggest obstacle of in acquiring Johan to me is the fact it’s Mets who wont likely to do biz with the Yanks. If Johan is another team and is avail i do believe the yanks can and will acquire him if he shows he is healthy and effective.
But that’s lot of hypothetical and ifs.
“He was hired because it way the only way Bud saw as a way he the Wilpon’s could keep the team because Sandy has a great rep within the banking/investing community”
Beginning to look more and more like his plan isn’t going to work.
SJ44-
Sure, Liriano seems like a bigger injury risk, but as I said earlier there’s the not inconsiderable risk that for one reason or another Banuelos or Betances will never get to the level Liriano is actually at right now.
I don’t think the Twins trade him, and if they did I wouldn’t trade Montero and I’d prefer not to trade Manuelos or Betances, but if I had to I would and I suspect Cashman would as well.
They were willing to sign Lee as a free agent because he was healthier, MUCH healthier than Santana, and wouldn’t require giving up any players in a trade. Lee was also a greater hedge for them should CC opt out.
The two situations aren’t remotely similar.
I can’t believe someone would describe Liriano as elite. He’s got to string along a few great seasons before even entering that type of discussion. Would he help the rotation if healthy? Yes, of course. Is he worth trading away big upside prospects? Absolutely not. Not even close.
As rodg12 suggested a Nova/Nunez/Adams package for Liriano would be a good trade, but it’s doubtful the Twins would bite for that. They’re too competitive to sell low on Liriano, so the whole discussion is rather impractical.
Same goes with Santana, honestly if we could get him on a salary dump – sure, let’s do it. A mediocre Santana still probably has more upside than Nova and or Colon/Garcia. Are the Mets desperate enough to dump Santana? Quite possibly.
Let’s just put it this way, if Cashman were willing to move a killer B or Montero for Liriano, he’d be a Yankee by now. There really is no need to further discuss those prospects and Liriano is the same paragraph.
“Let’s just put it this way, if Cashman were willing to move a killer B or Montero for Liriano, he’d be a Yankee by now.”
I don’t see how you can conclude that. Maybe the Twins want more than Killer Bee and Cashman is saying he won’t give up a Killer Bee so there’s still a bid-ask spread, who knows?
agree kev, I think if santana is avail in a salary dump Yanks certainly would be interested.
but i simply don’t see them dumping it on the yanks even if he is avail. Granted, Yanks are the few teams can absorb his entire salary, i just think it would be a publicity nightmare for the mets. but stranger things has happened. History tells me, the two teams aren’t likely to do biz.
I heard yesterday the Yankees have placed the same value on Betances and Banuelos as they have on Montero.
Meaning, it’s highly unlikely he would trade either for Liriano.
The bid-ask spread seems to indicate Banuelos or no deal. The Twins are said to want Banuelos. Cashman reportedly offered Nova + Pena.
would u move brackman for him, SJ?
SJ44 March 2nd, 2011 at 12:30 pm
They were willing to sign Lee as a free agent because he was healthier, MUCH healthier than Santana, and wouldn’t require giving up any players in a trade. Lee was also a greater hedge for them should CC opt out.
The two situations aren’t remotely similar.
_______
I hope that is your idea of a joke.
Lee has had back and abdominal problems, and they were willing to offer him a 6 year deal! And Lee is a year older…
Sanatan would only be pursued if he proves healthy in August.
As for Lee providing a hedge, that is really funny!
Signing Lee would pretty much insured CC would renegotiate to get same AAV contract, and the Yankees would have done that.
So, in effect, acquiring a healthy Santna is less of an investment than Lee, and has minimal impact on CC deal.
“I heard yesterday the Yankees have placed the same value on Betances and Banuelos as they have on Montero. ”
Perhaps, but if I were the Yanks that’s the rumor I’d be spreading. It would serve Yankee interests.
1) The Twins have never said anything about Liriano being available.
2) Cashman said he hasn’t talked to the Twins in months.
3) Bottom of the barrel prospects are not going to convince the Twins to give up their 2 controlled years of Liriano.
Can we find something else to talk about other than more players that are not available? This has been going on since November… you can’t just trade for whoever you want.
Teixeira compared Banuelos to Johan Santana. Is he in on the pump and dump too, Wave? Or could it be that Banuelos is pitching himself into trade immunity while real players with no other motive than to make an observation are taking notice?
The way Liriano has pitched when healthy is elite. The 2 pitchers people go gaga over here are King Felix and Josh Johnson. Johnson hasn’t had 1 healthy season since he’s been up and he pitches in the NL so if Liriano’s health should be questioned so should Johnson
Bojo,
I hope you’re right about Johan Santana. He’s an ace who would cost money alone and far much less of it than their offer for Cliff Lee, not to mention far fewer years. I just don’t think the Mets are stuck with Johan’s contract. Texas has money and prospects too. Again, I hope you’re right because we need a #2 without Andy or Cliff Lee.
triple – JJ is not elite either.
You can perform at an elite level over a short period of time, but you are not an elite player until you do that for a few years in a row.
Felix = yes
Johan = yes
Josh Johnson = no
Liriano = no
Bret-
Nobody’s talking pump and dump. Banuelos appears to be the real deal. I don’t think it’s necessary to devalue Banuelos to argue that it would make sense to move him for Liriano. And you are welcome to disagree.
LGY, I’ve done my contrarian duty and am now turning the argument back over to you. I need to bail out pretty soon.
Santana could be an option:
If he comes back pitching well
If the Mets are woefully out of it
If the Yankees need a starter this summer
If the Mets would deal him to the Yankees and eat salary.
I don’t think its impossible…….but that’s a lot of ifs.
After reading through the comments section after only 1 inning of seeing the two B’s pitch, I am a bit surprised to see so much support for trading either of them.
I’ve never been so excited to watch an inning of a Spring Training game in my life.
If if’s and but’s was candies and nuts, we’d all have a merry christmas.
In the last three years, Santana has had elbow, knee, and shoulder surgeries.
Do you seriously want to compare his health to a guy like Lee, who has never had surgery? That would be the joke.
Wave,
Or, it could be the truth.
Signing Lee would pretty much insured CC would renegotiate to get same AAV contract, and the Yankees would have done that.
—————————————————————————————————————-
I’d say that’s happening regardless.
“Or, it could be the truth.”
SJ44-
Sure it could, who knows?
“Teixeira compared Banuelos to Johan Santana. Is he in on the pump and dump too, Wave?”
Just the pump. I’m not suggesting Banuelos isn’t going to be terrific, but everything’s sunny in spring training. Everybody spends the month in FLA or Arizona verbally fellating each other. They don’t need motivation to do it. It’s just what goes on in spring training.
Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2011 at 12:38 pm
Triple Short of a Cycle March 2nd, 2011 at 12:40 pm
Which again is why I am fine with just keeping opur current rotation and only worrying about acquiring a play-off pitcher in August IF we really need it.
There is no need to acquire JJ, Felix, Liriano, Gio, Wainwright or (insert name here). This team has the talent within the organization.
If they aren’t ready by August, a move can be made then.
The move can either be to acquire a player who is an ace for 2-3 years, or a rental. The future prospects like Betances, Nova, Banuelos all provide plenty of talent for the future rotation.
Liriano is just a poor man’s Lee.
Wake up and smell the coffee.
He ain’t no Catfish Hunter.
Wave,
My point is that you don’t have to ignore the rising value of Banuelos just because the organization speaks highly of all of its prospects. In his case, I have no problem believing SJ44 when he states that the Yankees have placed the same value on Betances and Banuelos as they have Montero.
Santana’s going to have to impress the Hell out of everybody and he’ll have about 4 weeks to do it in. If he’s back by mid-June, that is. Nobody’s taking a hit like that based on maybe 5 starts.
The more news reports out of Minneapolis that dings Liriano, the further away he’s getting. Those reports are coming from somewhere out of a front office, and unless the Yankees have an annex up there, it’s not them.
No is German for Nein, pronounced Nine.
First test for AJ begins in a few. AJ will only have nine losses in 2011. 16 wins.
Sorry if mentioned, is today’s game on Gameday Audio?
SJ44 March 2nd, 2011 at 12:46 pm
In the last three years, Santana has had elbow, knee, and shoulder surgeries.
Do you seriously want to compare his health to a guy like Lee, who has never had surgery? That would be the joke.
______________
That is really a misleading statement, so let’s look at it in detail.
He had minor arthroscopic knee surgery on October 2008 and fully recovered by 2009.
IN August 2009, he had bone chips removed from his elbow and was back in 2010. IN fact, he was saying in 2010 that his slider had finally returned because the pain is gone.
Now, per the article I posted earlier, he is recovering from shoulder surgery which the doctors believe will fully heal and allow him to recover the zip on his fastball.
If he is healthy in august, the doctors say he should not have a recurrence of the problem.
You are making more out of it than the professionals.
So he fixed his elbow, which let him throw his slider harder, which hurt his shoulder.
Nope, nothing wrong there at all :p
Certain guys truly are “untouchable” but for elite arms or players.
I believe the Yankees have determined Betances, Montero and Banuelos are in that group.
All three, for varying reasons, have been the talk of the Grapefruit League within the scouting community.
If Felix Hernandez came on the market, which he isn’t right now, I believe the Yankees would move Banuelos or Betances (among others) to get him.
I don’t believe they would for Liriano because there are too many red flags around him.
I believe the Yankees would have interest in him. I don’t believe they would include any of the above three in a deal.
In answer to an earlier question……yes, I would include Brackman in a Liriano deal.
Santana’s going to have to impress the Hell out of everybody and he’ll have about 4 weeks to do it in
————————————————————————————————–
I’ve got no comment but I like the way you capitalized “Hell”
Giving it the respect it deserves.
I respect anything that’s scarier than my mind, Bronx
Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2011 at 12:56 pm
So he fixed his elbow, which let him throw his slider harder, which hurt his shoulder.
Nope, nothing wrong there at all :p
___________
Nope…that wasn’t what happened. His shoulder had been wearing down the past few years according to the reports I read. Had nothing to do with him recovering his slider.
“No is German for Nein, ….”
So I’ve been speaking German all these years ?
GreenBeret7 March 2nd, 2011 at 12:51 pm
Santana’s going to have to impress the Hell out of everybody and he’ll have about 4 weeks to do it in.
__________
Agreed.
Three surgeries is three surgeries. It’s three surgeries more than Cliff Lee on two of the most important parts of a pitcher…..his shoulder and his elbow.
Show me a doctor who doesn’t term his surgeries “successful”. That would be a first.
He’s a huge injury risk. Much larger than Lee.
SJ44 March 2nd, 2011 at 1:01 pm
Three surgeries is three surgeries. It’s three surgeries more than Cliff Lee on two of the most important parts of a pitcher…..his shoulder and his elbow.
_____________
That is BS….removal of bone chips is not TJ surgery.
Anthroscopic surgery on knee is not ACL surgery
Come on…be better than that.
And the surgery he just had was not rotator cuff surgery.