Spring Training Game 8: Yankees vs. Nationals
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Gameday Thread on Mar 05, 2011 
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YANKEES (2-4-1)
Brett Gardner LF
Nick Swisher RF
Curtis Granderson CF
Jorge Posada DH
Eric Chavez 3B
Jesus Montero C
Eduardo Nunez 2B
Jorge Vazquez 1B
Ramiro Pena SS
LHP CC Sabathia (0-0, 0.00)
Sabathia vs. Nationals
NATIONALS (3-2)
Jerry Hairston Jr. CF
Ian Desmond SS
Ryan Zimmerman 3B
Michael Morse RF
Ivan Rodriguez C
Derek Norris DH
Chris Marrero 1B
Jeff Frazier LF
Brian Bixler 2B
RHP Chad Gaudin (0-0, 6.00)
Gaudin vs. Yankees
TIME/TV: 7:05 p.m., YES Network
WEATHER: Pretty cloudy day here in Tampa, but it’s still in the upper 70s with a chance of getting into the low 80s. Very light breeze blowing from right to left.
UMPIRES: HP Manny Gonzalez, 1B Mark Carlson, 2B Dan Iassogna, 3B Tyler Funneman
ON THE LINE: Jesus Montero and Austin Romine are both scheduled to play today, and obviously their at-bats have taken more importance now that Francisco Cervelli is officially out of the mix. Also, Eduardo Nunez and Ramiro Pena continue to start together, battling for the utility infield job.
SIGN OF THINGS TO COME: Pretty good indication that the first series of Yankees cuts could be coming in the next few days: The Nationals made their first cuts yesterday, assigning three pitchers to minor league camp. Yankees minor league camp opens Monday.
OUT OF THE BULLPEN FOR THE YANKEES: Joba Chamberlain, Dave Robertson, Romulo Sanchez and Ryan Pope seem to be first out of the pen for the Yankees.
BULLPEN FOR THE NATIONALS: Craig Stammen, JD Martin, Sean Burnett and Tim Wood. Burnett is the only lefty.
UPDATE, 1:09 p.m.: Double and an RBI single kicks off the first inning against Sabathia. The Nationals took an early 1-0 lead before Sabathia got a shallow fly ball and a double play to end the inning.
UPDATE, 1:30 p.m.: The Yankees are being shutdown by their old mopup man Gaudin, who’s faced the minimum through two innings.
UPDATE, 1:32 p.m.: Sabathia’s not having nearly the same success. He just gave up a solo home run to Jeff Frazier, giving the Nationals a 2-0 lead in the top of the third.
UPDATE, 1:45 p.m.: After a two-out walk in the third inning, Sabathia’s day is done a little sooner than expected. He was actually knocked around a little bit, allowing six hits and five runs through 2.2 innings. Even his last out — immediately before the walk — was a pretty hard-hit ball to right field. I can’t imagine the Yankees are worried about Sabathia, but there’s always some intrigue when a big name struggles like this in a spring outing. Probably meaningless, but it makes you raise an eyebrow a little bit.
UPDATE, 1:47 p.m.: Joba Chamberlain is in. He came to the mound to Indian Outlaw.
UPDATE, 2:27 p.m.: Sabathia said he’s not going to lose any sleep after being knocked around this afternoon. “As long as I’m feeling good (physically), I feel fine,” he said. Sabathia said he simply couldn’t get anything working today.
“It kind of felt like I was just pushing the ball up there instead of throwing the ball downhill,” he said.
UPDATE, 2:38 p.m.: The Yankees offense finally decided to show up. The Yankees have already scored eight runs in the fourth inning, and there’s still only one out. Brett Gardner just put the Yankees in the lead with an RBI triple, making this an 8-7 game. It had been 7-0 when the inning started. Gardner led off the inning with a double.
UPDATE, 3:15 p.m.: Here comes Bryce Harper. Of all the people for him to face, it’s Rule 5 pick Daniel Turpen.
UPDATE, 3:17 p.m.: And Turpen makes the team! He got Harper to ground harmlessly to the right side.
UPDATE, 3:22 p.m.: It’s been all downhill since Harper. Turpen has now allowed three straight hits since getting the uber-prospect to ground out. The Nationals just tied the game at 8 on an RBI double by Matt Stairs.
UPDATE, 3:31 p.m.: Could be wrong, but it looks like Golson is wearing the Gazoo helmet that Cervelli had to wear last year.
Meanwhile,
For 2011 ,
C . C . E . R . A . == 3.69
Phil Hughes E . R . A . == 4.47 ( Average number of pitches per inning == 26 )
Montero calling own game today.
Yanks down 1-0 already.
Sabathia gave up a run. Oh no! Hope he makes the team.
My audio isn’t working.
Meanwhile – number of brain cells possessed by E . R . California == zero.
C. Buchholz last night HRKIPBW=2
HRKIPBW=Gopher balls kept in park by wind.
ova would be the #5 starter by default because of his innings limit (just like Hughes last year) as well as his inexperience.
****
Nova has no innings limit.
Keith Olbermann in booth with Sterling and crew.
Nova’s inning limits are 240 innings. He was at 190 last year plus ST innings
Just bought my tickets for the four game series the Yankees have in Detroit in early May. So I have 3 night games followed by a getaway day game.
Bojo…..Both guys were ahead of me on the depth chart, although I did play a few games at Syracuse at short for Fred on the back end of double headers……Jerry was playing the outfield / 3rd base back then……I thought he was shipped out to Cleveland along with Charlie Spikes for Nettles…..Long time ago
Got my audio on just in time for Montero’s ab!
at least he worked the count full before grounding out.
Montero wiggling and tinkling, swooshing and bashing, galvanize and energizing and grounds to short. but the, he looks effervescent.
That was (understandably) the most understated HR call I have ever heard from Sterling.
Cashman via MLBTR:
Yankees GM Brian Cashman told Peter Abraham of The Boston Globe that he doesn’t believe he’ll be able to acquire a starter before the Opening Day, and perhaps not until June.
“Normally anything of quality doesn’t become available until after the June draft,” said Cashman. “That’s why you try and get as much as you can get accomplished in the winter. I know New York doesn’t handle patience very well. But I’m from Kentucky, so it’s a little easier for me to deal with.”
Cashman also spoke to Abraham about why the Yankees non-tendered Alfredo Aceves, who eventually signed with the Red Sox. “I offered him a minor league contract, that was it. I wasn’t going to do anything more than that,” said the GM. “Because of the back issue, we could not give him a Major League contract.
He was throwing off the mound for us and he always hit a wall. So we ultimately continued to fail throughout the entire process to get him off the DL and active. He had a lot of success for a period of time, but then ultimately we’d had to take steps back and we’d have to shut him down and re-do the treatment.”
ova’s inning limits are 240 innings. He was at 190 last year plus ST innings
****
Lol. I’m sure he has a “limit” but I am taking the under on him approaching 240 innings.
Not Sabathia’s day. Down 3-0. No fastball command.
Jesus Montero is ready for the Major Leagues . . . he has the same number of hits as *dr**n G*nz*l*z this spring .
No ?
jeepers, CC.
Doesn’t matter, he’s just getting his work in.
This board is nuts. When a guy pitches well, he’s ready for the Hall of Fame. When he doesn’t, he’s just getting his work in.
Pudge starting his 21st season as a catcher.
Niblick – it’s Sabathia.
Given what Pudge did to his body, and the position he plays, it’s amazing that he has lasted so long.
Niblick – It’s ST, they are getting their work in.
Looking at any results is foolish. You have no idea what any particular player may be working on any particular day.
mick says:
March 5, 2011 at 1:06 pm
Montero calling own game today.
Yanks down 1-0 already.
—
Is it Montero’s game calling or an issue with CC’s command? Too bad this isn’t on TV so we can see just what’s going on.
CC’s fastball command not there according to John and Suzyn.
It’s ST. Sabathia is not gonna let a rookie catcher get him in trouble. He had no fastball control today. He was just getting his work in.
Montero needs to only catch the young guys (Hughes, Nova)
Don’t think he is ready to help nurture a guy like CC, AJ or Garcia through a game, as we’re seeing today. And remember, CC always struggles early (though last year, he flip-flopped April and May)
Nothing to do with Montero today. Also, it’s the pitcher’s decision what he throws.
I’m not worried about CC. I’d blame it on the wind. Really windy here today.
WCYF and ID – of course, it’s spring training. That’s why I laugh when people make a big deal of young pitchers who have one or two good innings. It’s spring training. Meaningless.
Again, what CC did today is absolutely, 100% meaningless as far as results go. He was to throw 50 pitches and that’s what he did. Some days command of your fastball just isn’t there. It means nothing for Sabathia March 5th.
Nurture a pitcher through a spring training game on March 5th.
Please, time to go back into the ocean or on somebody’s plate with that one Red Lobster.
lol Red Lobster, try harder. You’re incredibly transparent and dense.
Please be nice to each other.
Niblick March 5th, 2011 at 1:56 pm
WCYF and ID – of course, it’s spring training. That’s why I laugh when people make a big deal of young pitchers who have one or two good innings. It’s spring training. Meaningless.
*************
Yes but there is a difference between a Sabathia — and a Colon or Garcia hoping to make the team. Or prospects like Banuelos and Betances who are being seen for the first time and want to make an impression.
nicely said WCYF
Even during ST, John and Suzyn love smallball.
Yes, but a good inning or two by Banuelos in a spring training game is just as irrelevant to a decision as to where he will (or should) end up during the season as is a bad 2 2/3 innings by CC.
in other news, dice-k gave up 7 runs in two innings to the marlins and was all over the place. i just don’t see anyway that the sox can trust that guy. i know it’s early, but he just has no idea where the ball is going. he’s also throwing 88
i really believe that they have more questions than we do
Pat M–
I loved the Chicken Stanley…and Kenney was one of the guys the CBS team propped up as one of the next stars.
CC is tried and true. I think we’d worry about a bad innning he might have in ST the same way we’d worry about a bad inning by King Felix or Tim Lincecum – we wouldn’t.
Banuelos on the other hand is yet to make his mark so anything we see from him cannot be viewed through the same lens as what we see from a pitcher like CC. We are in the process of evaluating Banuelos. We are not evaluating CC. We’re merely going through his ST process as we wait to get to the regular season.
BoJo…….The guy who really was close to the young guys and was more of a coach was Gene Michaels……Chicken was alright but he was always leary of keeping his job which was eventually taken ( thankfully ) by Bucky……He was a smooth SS with a less than average arm but he couldn’t hit a lick…Frankly I’m surprised he kicked around as long as he did….Then again Gene was a weak stick as was the norm for SS’s back then…..
“i really believe that they have more questions than we do”
They do.
Niblick March 5th, 2011 at 2:01 pm
Yes, but a good inning or two by Banuelos in a spring training game is just as irrelevant to a decision as to where he will (or should) end up during the season as is a bad 2 2/3 innings by CC.
****************
It’s been decided where both are pitching. Who said that was up in the air? Banuelos has only thrown 215 innings in the minors.
DRob coming in.
On the other hand, do not underestimate the Nats. They are my adopted team and I have paid close attention to them. This team has muscle and it has pitching and it has Pudge to lead the pitching.
Nib, did u watch the game? No one was wowed by three scoreless innings pitched by a rookie from AA if wasn’t for the case that He demonstrated he has three above average pitches and ability to pitch inside to the hitters. in short, he demonstrated good command and stuff that is very rare for a 19 year old.
the result is a by product the above.
“in other news, dice-k gave up 7 runs in two innings to the marlins and was all over the place. i just don’t see anyway that the sox can trust that guy. i know it’s early, but he just has no idea where the ball is going. he’s also throwing 88″
If you want to get right down to it, the Sux have three genuine question marks in their rotation – Beckett, Lackey, and Dice-K. None of the three has performed well in a while. And they do not have the Yankees bullpen, a critical piece for a rotation with question marks.
Niblick, you know that all pitchers are not created equal and that they all have different roles on the team, expectations and history.
Sabathia shouldn’t be compared to others IMO in terms of what spring trainings purpose is for him.
scratch that, he demonstrated good command and very good stuff for any year old.
That, is what i think ppl are getting excited for.
I guess my point wasn’t clear. I think that everyone makes way too much out of spring training results. For example, Banuelos had success yesterday, but the sox didn’t have a single starter in the lineup. So does his result yesterday mean much? No.
They are looking for stuff, location, and composure. Probably more composure, that you don’t lose it from having bad results in ST. If you can matter-of-factly go out there and do your work regardless of what happens, it shows more than “efforting” your way through 3 scoreless innings.
Looks like the Nats scored 2 more runs off Joba
trisha – I would rather be in the Yankees position than Bostons. You know exactly what you will get and what your limits are for Beckett/Lackey/Dice. The Yankee’s could really end up with a very solid rotation, there is way more upside in their position.
Very poor outing for Joba.
One inning pitched – 2 hits – 2 runs – 2 walks – no strikeouts.
Gardy!
Tricia…..Your point about the BoSox starters and bullpen ( although it’s better on paper this season ) is noteworthy….That and their top heavy lefthanded lineup is another issue…..With Paps playing for a contract next season, it should be of interest hos he performs……Jenks is an up and down guy much like our own Joba Chamberlain……Boston’s problems is that there’s not much pitching down in Pawtucket to call upon or in Portland Maine for that matter
and therein lies the rub as goes the inconsistent joba…
there’s also the simple fact that we don’t know if youk is going to be ok at 3rd for the whole season. he’s 32, not exactly a spring chicken. who knows if the keebler elf has fully healed? if they loose him again for a month or two, it’s really going to hurt. their catching is a disaster. i was watching salty play there today. to my untrained eye, cervelli looks much more comfortable back there.
sit back, relax with a cold beer, this season is going to be a lot of fun for us
inconsistent joba is back? this is ST so he’s probably just getting work in, throwing different pitches.
Grandy walks!
Error! Swisher scores! Grandy to 3rd, Po to 2nd!
the nats will be pretty good this year
RP’s are the only players in baseball that are EXPECTED to be successful 100% of the time.
Very unrealistic. A reliever giving up 2 walks/hits/runs does not make him automatically “inconsistent again”. You have to watch how it happened and understand why before you label a pitcher so.
Plus, you don’t know what in the world he’s up to right now. He could be working on fastball command. He could be working on changing a small part of a delivery or a landing and just throwing one pitch…. just going up there and getting outs is not always the goal in ST.
Buchholz definitely has the edge on Phil because he’s done it; Phil can definitely take the next step, but he has to do it first. We’ll see how much progress he’s made with his breaking pitches -and putting hitters away. Now, I don’t think CB will pitch to a 2.3 ERA this year, but he doesn’t have to……….
# PhiltheThrill March 5th, 2011 at 2:26 pm
Error! Swisher scores! Grandy to 3rd, Po to 2nd!
</i
Stuff like… this… this is just pure insanity. Who cares.
“For example, Banuelos had success yesterday, but the sox didn’t have a single starter in the lineup. So does his result yesterday mean much? No.”
Banuelos pitched to Lowrie, Varitek, Nava, and McDonald, among the batters he faced. All are major league players and all know how to hit. Banuelos has faced AA-type hitters at best in his baseball life.
I see no reason to question what we saw because he wasn’t doing it to Albert Pujols. Not many people do it to Pujols, and that includes the big names who have been around the majors a long time.
Wow, Rich is right, they really do love their small ball, even in ST!
Anyone that makes any sort of deal about a great pitcher struggling for one or two ST outings is just silly.
Didn’t take long for Joba to catch some heat
Betsy – He’s done what exactly? Had one good season where he only threw 170 innings? Now the league has a full years worth of scouting material on his against ML hitters, and he will have to make adjustments.
Irreverent Discourse,
I’m here to have fun. Place was a little dull, I’m enjoying a rally.
Just tuned in, what happened w joba?
Experimenting? I know he can’t be perfect, but I wanted a pristine spring for his ego..
PhiltheTHrill – no, i know… and i didn’t really mean to single you out, you just provided me with the perfect example for my point.
I don’t mind anyone being excited about success, so long it is not also followed by mindless complaints about some perceived “failure”.
ID, what are you talking about? Jeez all I said was that he has an edge on Phil…..and he does
ID,
I don’t complain about anything. Especially not
MONTERO!!!!!!!!
Is this the new Joba, the old Joba, Joba is so many things to so many people.
Montero works the count and gets a single.
If he doesn’t, you can tell me why Phil has an edge on Buchholz………ML hitters are going to scout him but they won’t scout Phil? That doesn’t even make any sense.
7-5.
Clawing back…
Nunez!!!!!!!!!! And it’s 7-5 with no outs!
“trisha – I would rather be in the Yankees position than Bostons. You know exactly what you will get and what your limits are for Beckett/Lackey/Dice. The Yankee’s could really end up with a very solid rotation, there is way more upside in their position.”
Absolutely and unequivocally ID. I’m loving the Yanks vantage point and loving even more the hype about the Sux and the very probable downside to their rotation. For some bizarre reason, the fixation on them getting Crawford and Gonzalez (while losing Martinez and Beltre, go figure) somehow allowed the real weaknesses in their rotation to go totally untalked about. Yet they were annoited as the heirs to the 2011 throne.
Way cool.
Actually, nevermind – I’m not getting into it because it’s just going to lead to an argument. Others have said the same thing I did and yet you get on my case. Have a nice day.
7-7
Vazquez ties it up!!!!!!!!!!!!! 2 run double!
Vazquez!
Tie game. lol
Betsy, sorry to say, your reputation proceeds you.
Betsy – Bucholz numbers are very deceiving from last season. They both really had very similar years.
Vazquez – 2 home runs and 5 RBI’s. The guy can hit.
El Chato!
lol…
“Oh my god he’s going to defend his point! RunAWAY!”
“Boston’s problems is that there’s not much pitching down in Pawtucket to call upon or in Portland Maine for that matter”
And that totally compounds their problem if (and with Dice-K I say it’s a matter of when) the rotation starts to show cracks. I wouldn’t count on Lackey for much either. The only one I think has a shot of having some redeeming value would be Beckett. Whether he does remains to be seen.
Nice the game is tied! Now Girardi better not throw Joba out there for a 2nd inning ro get cute with matchups. No one except MO/Soriano should pitch the rest of this game.
Seems like Sterling and Suzyn are really eager to use outs.
WC, he is a hacker but he does have a knack in driving runs in the minor league, he got some pops obviously.
ID, I’m sorry I said something now. I don’t care what Buchholz does – if Phil improves his breaking pitches, he’ll be fine.
“Sabathia said he’s not going to lose any sleep after being knocked around this afternoon. ‘As long as I’m feeling good (physically), I feel fine,’ he said. Sabathia said he simply couldn’t get anything working today.”
As everybody should be taking the outing CC. NBD.
8-7 yanks
Vazquez is a one dimensional hitter, and that dimension is power. He is walk resistant.
Gardy triples!!!!!!!!
gardy triples
trips for BG
“Nice the game is tied! Now Girardi better not throw Joba out there for a 2nd inning ro get cute with matchups. No one except MO/Soriano should pitch the rest of this game.”
Unless the rules are different in ST, I’d say Joba’s done for the day.
Joba is already out of the game
7-7 in the 4th, change that 8-7! Could be a long game!
trisha – The value of 4 and 5 starts is ridiculously overrated anyway.
All you really need to have there is someone talented enough in position to pitch 2 good games in October. How they handle the entire season is largely irrelevant to the standings. Offenses and bullpens usually win games between 4/5 starters anyway.
And now for more Phil hating. What did Phil do to you anyway, Betsy? Steal your candy?
Cashmoney March 5th, 2011 at 2:37 pm
WC, he is a hacker but he does have a knack in driving runs in the minor league, he got some pops obviously.
***********
Certainly not a a perfect player, far from it. But, a nice injury protection guy to have in SWB.
Ugh!!!! Typical Yankee clutch non-hitting.
Had to say it first.
Niblick, you might want to take reading comprehension 101
Right. How dare they make an out?
Betsy wants the best for Phil.
She’s like a Mother Hen.
Uh oh. After taking a 3-0 lead, the Sux have coughed up 3 to the Orioles.
* f**r th*t th* S*x *r* *n tr**bl*.
Betsy, why don’t you harp on someone other than Phil?
It’s Robert Fish time!
Fish on the hook .
She’s not Phil hating. I’m just not as enamored with how Bucholz pitched last year as she is, and we don’t agree on it. Nothing wrong with that.
She doesn’t have to run away from the conversation but that’s her choice, nothing wrong with that either.
I think Bucholz “2.33 ERA” last year is bupkiss, and should have realistically been just north of 4. Phil’s 4.19 ERA was spot on with his peripherals.
How they progress going forward will be fun to watch, but I wouldn’t give one a leg up on the other. So far their progress in their careers has been nearly identical.
could we please leave Betsy alone (not talking to you ID)
Betsy is alone.
“trisha – The value of 4 and 5 starts is ridiculously overrated anyway.
All you really need to have there is someone talented enough in position to pitch 2 good games in October. How they handle the entire season is largely irrelevant to the standings. Offenses and bullpens usually win games between 4/5 starters anyway.”
ID while I would generally agree with that, Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy between them effectively killed any chances for the 2008 season. You need something out of your 4 and 5. I do agree with the bullpen part, to the extent that unless your 4 and 5s are total siphons, an ass-kicking pen will do a lot to mitigate the damage.
All of the said, the Sux are pretty much screwed because I don’t believe they have the power in their pen to make up for an iffy 4 and 5, with a 3 who might be relatively effective but still might have as many inconsistent games.
As we are wont to say in the law, I’d much rather have our case than theirs!
Noblick is a troll. Ignore him.
ooops. Sorry for the typo
Fish induces the DP.
Where do the rs get off , going into the season without a catcher?!?
Agruing with Betsy about Phil isn’t going to accomplish anything for anyone. And How about waiting for Phil to actually pitch in the game before bringing him up in conversation.
“Vazquez is a one dimensional hitter, and that dimension is power. He is walk resistant”
Thames played a nice roll on the team last year. Vazquez can possibly fit the same roll with more value defensively. We still don’t know how Jones (offensively) or Chavez (defensively) are going to work out.
Chuck Noblick?
Tar,
Thames was an OF, so Vazquez is not in the mix to be his replacement. Vazquez is presumably competing with Chavez,.
Ladies and gentleman – Mr. Bryce Harper.
Vazquez has no value defensively, look it up.
Chavez is a given defensively.
Chad – Thanks for the info on Cervelli in the last thread. I love that kid. He has such a great attitude. Hopefully his foot heals quickly.
I am SICK SICK SICK at heart! The Marlins kicking the crap out of the Sux in the 6th inning, 9-0. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
Oh my God.
Well at least the Sux didn’t bring their A-team offense with them.
WHAT??? THEY DID???????
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!
Thames played a nice roll on the team last year. Vazquez can possibly fit the same roll
======================================================
You are on a role.
Here comes Montero!
Whatever your beef with Betsy’s opinions on Phil, she is not whiny and incessant, like those critiquing her.
Suttle running for Chavez. Nice to see Chavez taking his walks.
Chavez may have been the steal of the off-season.
3 for 11.
Adj. 1. incessant – uninterrupted in time and indefinitely long continuing;
======================================
This game video on anywhere ?
ceaseless, never-ending, unremitting, perpetual, unceasing, constant
continuous, uninterrupted – continuing in time or space without interruption;
================================================
“Thames was an OF, so Vazquez is not in the mix to be his replacement”
Yeah and I am an OF as well. J/k
Thames was a RH power hitter off the bench. Vazquez can do that and give you some defense at the corner infield spots.
trisha,
dice-k was horrible in that game. no idea where the ball was going
incessant
adjective constant, endless, continuous, persistent, eternal, relentless, perpetual, continual, unbroken, never-ending, interminable, unrelenting, everlasting, unending, ceaseless, unremitting, nonstop, unceasing
mlb.com, I would think – if you want to pay for it.
trisha – Not to harp in pointless matters :p but I’m bored right now waiting for something to download :/
Hughes and Kennedy only made 17 starts combined in 2008. Ponson made 16 himself, and Rasner made 20. Only 2 pitchers made more starts than Rasner.
Wang breaking his foot with 8 wins at the ASB, and the combined good seasons of Boston/Tampa had more to do with the finish of the 2008 season than anything else.
The Yankee’s didn’t have a losing record (40-38) in a division with 2 teams over 95 wins… despite having no 3 starter, forget about 4 and 5. 89 wins was not really a disappointing result consider the team had 2 starters.
Of course this is all just my opinion. Popular consensus hardly ever agrees with it.
Trisha–
I think you’ll enjoy this analogy. The Nats remind me of the 1985 Mets…Starberg is Gooden, and Harper is Strawberry. Those two served to excite the franchise and also as the base to build on. Wang could come back to be the Darling…
mick
The big “if” with Chavez and Jones is can they stay healthy.
If they can make it through camp they should win the job. But that’s a big if
“trisha,
dice-k was horrible in that game. no idea where the ball was going”
kd, Dice-K’s been like a ticking time-bomb. I keep saying it’s a matter of time before he just totally blows up. How many pitchers do you know who can give up the number of flippin’ walks that guy gives up and still somehow escape?
Hey isn’t Dice-K “the one who got away”? It looks like we might have lucked out after all.
Tar,
He has to beat out Chavez to make the team. Doesn’t seem likely. Montero will be the RH bench power when he’s not starting.
Robert Fish is now the odds on favorite for the top lefty in the bullpen.
tar
and if they don’t then you can bring up vazquez and others
typo–you figure it out
mick, good to see you making progress in this reading thing.
Seriously, Niblockhead, you think I’m hating on Phil ? Give me a break – and that’s the last thing I’m saying to you.
He has to beat out Chavez to make the team. Doesn’t seem likely. Montero will be the RH bench power when he’s not starting.
====================
Not as a backup catcher.
“Montero will be the RH bench power”
Maybe, but you don’t usually use your back-up catcher that way.
there you go bets
Vazquez with another hit.
# Irreverent Discourse March 5th, 2011 at 3:01 pm
trisha – Not to harp in pointless matters :p but I’m bored right now waiting for something to download :/
Hughes and Kennedy only made 17 starts combined in 2008. Ponson made 16 himself, and Rasner made 20. Only 2 pitchers made more starts than Rasner.
Wang breaking his foot with 8 wins at the ASB, and the combined good seasons of Boston/Tampa had more to do with the finish of the 2008 season than anything else.
The Yankee’s didn’t have a losing record (40-38) in a division with 2 teams over 95 wins… despite having no 3 starter, forget about 4 and 5. 89 wins was not really a disappointing result consider the team had 2 starters.
Of course this is all just my opinion. Popular consensus hardly ever agrees with it.
—————————-
You also have to throw in losing Jorgie in June for the year, that was huge.
Laird in for Vazquez.
Bryce Harper in at right
ID, give me a break – discretion is the better part of valour. If you want to think I’m running away, good for you – but I’m not getting into it because for some funny reason I don’t relish being attacked. I didn’t say anything wrong – and I’m sorry we can’t have a discussion about it, but we can’t and it’s obvious that we can’t.
Another hit for Vazquez. 7-12 now.
“89 wins was not really a disappointing result consider the team had 2 starters.
”
Good point ID! I think the Elias Sports Bureau said the Yankees set the major league record for starting pitchers in 2008.
The reason I went with Kennedy and Hughes as 4 and 5 is because if one of them had won only half of his starts, I believe the Yankees would have won the division – something like that!
BTW, I agree with your opinions most of the time! That makes you both perspicacious and brilliant – at least in my books.
Vazquez could go 35-40 and wouldn’t come north.
Losing Matsui and then Jorge killed the 08 NY Yankees more so than the pitching which is unusual
Betsy – and I quote.
Actually, nevermind – I’m not getting into it because it’s just going to lead to an argument. Others have said the same thing I did and yet you get on my case. Have a nice day.
Those are your words, not mine.
You only think you are getting attacked (well you seemingly are in the last few minutes… but certainly not by me).
I thought i was more than cordial in my 2 posts on the matter. did you even read why i don’t care how well buchholz “seemingly” pitched?
I’m not trying to argue with you. It’s a discussion board for… discussion…
MLB.com only audio
Martin is wearing #55 speaking of Matsui.
Mike_Boston – I actually was just going to make that point after my initial post.
The Yankee offense sputtered to the tune of 789 runs that year. They only scored under 800 runs once int he last 10 years. Coincidence? I think not :p
ID, it’s not your fault that we can’t have a discussion. I wasn’t clear – I CAN have a discussion with you, but I have no stomach for an argument and some people just can’t help attacking me for my opinions. I don’t want to have to defend myself all the time from people like Niblockhead – can you blame me? I’m sorry as this really shouldn’t happen on a board, but what can you do?
Romine in for the manbeast. Harper up.
Betsy – then ignore him and stop responding to him. Or just keep getting yourself unnecessarily riled up. do you at least follow what i’m saying about butholz? i can let this rest if you at least read what i said.
Turpen Time.
I forgot about Matsui in 08, that was the year he broke his wrist against the sox.
So harper grew up a Yankee fan and wants to be a combination of Rose and Mantle. Nor sure who Mickey Rose is, though.
Yanks have not won since they let Matsui go.
wait you mean losing 2 all-star caliber bats and 3 of your 5 starters is not in the moneyball book?
It’s not just him, ID – I have to take it from a lot of people. I don’t think I said anything wrong today. In any case, I follow what you’re saying, but I guess I don’t get why it’s that big of a deal that Phil had more strikeouts; isn’t the whole idea to not give up runs? I just find all these alphabet soup stats (FIP, XFIP, etc..) not to my liking – it chalks too much good pitching up to luck and poor pitching to poor luck. I feel that way in general and not just about these two pitchers.
Pedro Cerrano: Bats, they are sick. I cannot hit curveball. Straightball I hit it very much. Curveball, bats are afraid. I ask Jobu to come, take fear from bats. I offer him cigar, rum. He will come.
Eddie Harris: You know you might think about taking Jesus Christ as your savior instead of fooling around with all this stuff.
Roger Dorn: Sh*t, Harris.
Pedro Cerrano: Jesus, I like him very much, but he no help with curveball.
Eddie Harris: You trying to say Jesus Christ can’t hit a curveball
In any case, as I said, I’m not worried about Buchholz – he’s a good pitcher; I’m certainly not promoting him for the HOF or anything, lol
People get what they give. So be nice to each other.
Sens take a 9-8 lead on an error by suttle.
DP. down 1 mid-seventh.
Betsy,
Not all outs are the same. With a K there is no chance of a batter getting a runner home from third or moving a runner over. Also once the ball is put into play the pitcher has to rely on his fielders. By every standard out there Laptops was incredible lucky last year. He will revert back to the norm this year
Never a real question about Suttle being able to hit, but, his great glove reputation from UT missed the plane when he turned pro
When Matsui retires he deserves some kind of acknowledgment, a plaque or something, in monument hall IMO.
I bet the majority of Yankee fans would not trade Hughes for Buchholz.
Triple, that makes sense. I hope you’re right- nothing would please me more than to see him regress.
Mike_Boston March 5th, 2011 at 3:29 pm
When Matsui retires he deserves some kind of acknowledgment, a plaque or something, in monument hall IMO.
_______________
Yankees have had a lot of better players who never got anything…Bob Muesel, could name many more.
Mike_Boston,
I don’t think he deserves a plaque. A day honoring him but not a plaque. He was good but not great
Doubt there will be the uproar Latroy Hawkins caused when he wore O’Neill’s #21 for Martin wearing Matsui’s #55.
Paullie just had that effect on people.
Betsy – I think the idea is to control how you give up runs. Walking more and striking out less is (apparently) more detrimental to losing than giving up more hits to a certain degree. A degree which is figured out in the xFIP adjustment that is killing butholz, figured out by smarter people than me.
Apparently the extra 9 walks and 26 less strikeouts are more important than the 20 extra hits Phil gave up. I think I know why… because strikeouts and walks are absolutes. You can hit a ball at a fielder and make an out… no one has ever made an out walking to first base.
The team on the field behind Butholz was able to turn more of those batted balls into outs than Phil’s, and it was apparently extremely timely (another important factor when only considering ERA) to the tune of a 2.33 ERA, where it “should” have been over 4 under the same ptretenses.
So in my eyes, Phil is more likely to repeat and improve on his performance from last season… whereas Bucholz was the beneficiary of some good luck and should not even be expected to repeat anything near his ERA result.
Can they both pitch well this year? Yes. I just wouldn’t give either an advantage at this point, it’s too early to know which guys methods will prove to be more effective.
If Buccholz regresses does that make Phil better?
Even if you add a full run to Buchholz’s ERA, he would still be one of the top pitchers in the AL. No way he sustains his 2.5 ERA or whatever with his peripherals, but I wouldn’t count on him having a 4+ ERA either.
“Losing Matsui and then Jorge killed the 08 NY Yankees more so than the pitching which is unusual”
The Yankees had more than enough offense to make up for Matsui and Posada. I know that both Hughes and Kennedy were part of your heart and soul but the truth of the matter is they stunk up the joint and their lack of success is what caused the Yankees to have to scrape for starting pitching all season.
I repeat – if they had won even half of their games, the Yankees would have won the division.
I do apologize for being longwinded today… lol…
I just rather explain what parts of the metrics I understand and why I think they work… rather than the “alphabet soup says you are wrong, why don’t you get it! hurr durr” approach…
trisha – 2008 was the only time the yankee offense put up less than 800 runs since at least 2000… and i only cut it off there because that’s how far i looked back.
they are probably averaging somewhere around 860runs for the last decade.
100 runs wins 6 ballgames relatively easy
Mick…..Brian Cashman wouldn’t even consider making that trade…..Last season Phil Hughes just started to scratch the surface……Bucholtz made the All-Star as a fill-in, Hughes was voted to the squad by his peers…….There’s a Cy Young Award with his name on it in a few years down the road……
Triple Short of a Cycle March 5th, 2011 at 3:34 pm
—–
Matsui’s game 6 was one of the all time greatest performances in WS history, I would compare it to Reggie’s.
ID, I enjoy learning about things I don’t know about, so be as long-winded as you want !
Tricia, I have to disagree about your assessment of the 08 Yanks…..They had some tough stretches and they didn’t have the sticks to offset the pitching woes as they did in 07-06-05-04
ID
I thought you did great job explaining the differences between Phil and Buch last year.
trisha – IMO, the fact that phil and ian were even IN the rotation to start the year is more of a detrimental factor (similar to this season…) than how they actually pitched in it. they were pretty clearly not ready to be pitching in the majors.
that’s why this season you see Colon and Garcia… and nova only having a leg up for having shown success previously… and no movement of the B’s whatsoever.
they could have survived any amount of hardship in the 4/5 spot if they still had 3 decent starters all year. wang was the straw that broke the back, so speak.
they are learning.
IIRC, 2008 was not even the worst performance of the 4/5 spot in the rotation this decade. yet, the only time they missed the playoffs was the only year the offense sputtered to almost 100 runs below their average.
Pat M, with Phil’s attitude (he sure is motivated by last year’s 2nd half struggles), there’s no reason for him not to be as good as you think he can be. I’m not someone who has faith in a lot of things – I have to see in order to believe – so nothing, NOTHING, I say about Phil is personal at all. I think he’s a great kid who represents the team extraordinarily well – he sure is the most mature twenty-something I’ve ever seen, lol
The 2008 team just was not very good…….and it seemed like they were zombies for much of the 2nd half.
Look who is on the wrapper of the Topps 2011 card packs
http://s1039.photobucket.com/a.....i5qcGc.jpg
Has Nova been put on an innings limit?
The season does not begin till Mariano makes his 1st appearance.
Sort of like the groundhog.
Romine gets thrown out trying to stretch a double into a triple.
Romine out stretching at 3rd with no out.
Bad.
2008 was injuries, including but not limited to Wang, Posada, Matsui. With the addition of 3 starting pitchers (Hughes, IPK, and a 3rd guy that I cannot remember) going 0-17 or 0-18 combined.
Just getting home. Obviously CC didn’t have it today.
How did Joba pitch?
mick – publicly? what’s the point… all you run into by doing that is the media frenzy over “nova rules” and public perception of a pitcher’s role with the club becoming unreasonable (i.e. joba).
Nova innings, last 3 years:
148 innings in A+ in 2008
139 innings between AA and AAA in 2009
145 innings in AAA in 2010, with another 42 in the majors
If I had to guess he’s clear 185+ innings, so there’s no sense putting a cap on it. We should be so lucky if he goes so deep in games to reach 200 innings.
They were TENTH in the AL in pitching. TENTH. The reason they were TENTH is because the 4 and 5 they started with crapped the bed from here to China and put the Yankees at such a deficiency the rest of the season that they never quite made up for it.
I can also tell you that the dominoes affect is added to when you have to constantly put up extra runs because your pitching keeps putting you behind. Usually if your pitching is in tenth place in the AL, it tells you that you are playing a lot of come-from-behind ball to even get to 89 games.
Just as bullpen pitchers wear down, so do hitters wear down.
100 runs over the course of 162 games isn’t really 6 games, ID. Unless of course you’re winning by 1 run or so! And you need pitching to do that…
*********************
Anyway, water under the bridge.
Joba didn’t have it, either. March 5th.
People disregard Pettitte pitching the last half of 2008 with a bad arm.
“trisha – IMO, the fact that phil and ian were even IN the rotation to start the year is more of a detrimental factor (similar to this season…) than how they actually pitched in it. they were pretty clearly not ready to be pitching in the majors”
No question. Look at Phil now.
But what was, was.
Fran, our Nats looked pretty good!
“Joba didn’t have it, either. March 5th.”
= It’s all good. And it is.
ID
The discussion was about whether Nova is the 4 or 5 starter.
I would like to see him @ 4, so as not to break his rhythm in April.
Think Garcia would adjust better to that.
GB good call on pettitte
Mike_Boston,
No doubt he had a great game but nobody outside of Yankee fans will be talking about it 30 years from now
Nova @ 187 inngs last year should clear him for no limits.
If he gets 30 starts at 6 inng per, 180 would be alot.
Pat M., have you ever had the pleasure to meet and talk with Luis Tiant? Very intelligent and funny man. As nice as anybody you’d want to meet. He was the first baseball coach at Ryan Pope’s college, Savannah College Of Art And Design. Their first basketbal coach was Cazzie Russell.
Trisha,
They are in a tough division with the Phils and Braves, but I think they’ll do well this season. Soon they won’t be underdogs anymore
Hey GB, when you get a chance pop an email to Chad. Or I will pop one to him and forward my address. I have a little interesting info for you.
Tricia….You better go back and look at that 2008 roster….They made a run in July, but I remember going to see all four games vs. The Angels and they lost every way possibly as they were swept and then lost 2 of 3 in Minn. and that was that……It was a very flawed ballcub after the injuries took out All-Stars like Wang, Posada & Matsui……
Anyone knows if David Adam is slated back to AA?
And Fran, they have an owner who is willing to spend.
I’m very excited to see what they are going to do this season. They have some very good young pitching and they have some butt-kicking hitting! And Fran, they have Nyjer Morgan.
Will do, Trisha. and the answer is YES. Will it be formal or can I just wear shorts and sandals to the church?
trisha you always were a smart one. i’m glad you’ve caught on.
Yanks lose. Montero was 2-3 and Vazquez got two more hits Romine hit the ball hard.
Yeal well by July you’re pretty exhausted when you are already 8 games down before you get off the blocks when your 4 and 5 both lose 4 straight to start off your season.
I remember 2008 vividly Pat M. I’d like to forget it. Thank you!
Bye now 2008. Bye!!!
Yanks 1st month features 20 home games and 8 away.
Starters 1-4 should go 6x each w/ #5 going 4x.
That is with no rainouts.
GB –
Gotta get dressed up buddy.
Adams is supposed to play 3rd base in Trenton
trisha – In 2008, yankees starters were 3rd in the league in xFIP, and 4th in accumulated WAR. They were only ranked low in ERA (result, not reason).
they lost 18 games by 1 run in 2008. 100 runs into 162 games is a run every other game (its more than that but i’m happy to fudge low). if they had a run every other one of those 18 games they lost, they would had had a chance to win them… not to mention other games where it would change the relievers playing the game.
i understand that the 4/5 starters could have helped win more games that year… i don’t thinka nyone could argue against that fact… but it wasnt the biggest determining factor in my eyes. if you look over all at the last decade of team stats… the yankees dealt with worse in other years.
the thing that was always there for them in the past (offense), wasn’t.
Well, OK…let me see if “Killer” will loan me his coat and tails.
Trisha,
Morgan is a fantasy team candidate.
and thats all i will say on it, goodbye 2008.
mick – labelling your rotation during the season is largely meningless… all that matters is if he will pitch game 4 over someone else. i think he does if he’s still in the rotation by the end of the season. i doubt anyone is expecting garcia/colon to fill that role at this point.
“BeholdArNo March 5th, 2011 at 4:07 pm
trisha you always were a smart one. i’m glad you’ve caught on.”
Caught on to what, that 2008 was a wash because of the 4 and 5 starters? That’s not exactly rocket science.
my download is finished, time to go do work. yay.
i’ll check in later
Fran, he is you know.
We need to keep an eye on Bernadina and Desmond also.
**************
be warned – if I see “2008″ in a post, I am buzzing by it.
Bye 2008. Bye.
trisha exactly
mick – labelling your rotation during the season is largely meningless
=================================
Disagree.
Whether AJ or Phil is 2 or 3 or Nova or Garcia is 4 or 5 means something to them.
Plus, would you rather have your #4 or 5 up against a #1?
GB –
The weight of the 4/5 starters didn’t break Wang’s foot, Matsui’s wrist, or tear Posada’s labrum… whatever.
mick – the rotation is fudged all season and mismatches happen naturally due to offdays.
There are only 3 times of the year where you completely control your matchups.
opening week
the first week after the ASB
the playoffs
Other than those specific days (and some occasional skipping of the 5 guy to get you #1 against another #1), there are mixed matchups every day.
All you really want to do is split up your lefties and your power throwers to keep teams off guard during 3 and 4 game sets.
GreenBeret7,
How is Adams going to play 3B with Suttle @ 3B?
thx GB.
Suttle at 1st base. Joseph at 2nd base is the plan for now
The Yankees lost in 2008 because Hughes, Wang, Joba, Matsui & Posada all went down
GB….I never met Tiant but I did see him throw a B spring game and afterwards he sat in the bullpen smoking a stogie
A-Rods hip.
Jeters hand.
All bad.
For anybody wondering, this is the scheduled scranton rotation as of yesterday
Phelps-Mitchell-Noesi-Brackman-Warren
Is there a way to justify Vazquez for the 25-man roster??
I sure hope so the way he has hit so far.
Pat, Nettles always insisted that Tiant took a shower with a lighted cigar in his mouth. He was never without one during practice.
Too bad. Heyman tweet.
Dominic Brown has fracture of hamate bone. Likely surgery. web • 3/5/11 1:38 PM
trisha if jerkface knows, everyone knows
you may not have noticed but jerkface and I are not the best of friends.
But I certainly know now.
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OT
Did you ever have a telemarketer call your house and when you check the number it’s not the telemarketer’s number? Did you know that’s a federal offense? Just found that out myself. I can’t stand telemarketers but I can’t stand even more that they are total cowards by not using their real numbers but they feel free to call yours. That’s why I will never buy a thing they’re trying to sell. I prefer honesty in all forms. The first time one calls my house and is actually using a real number rather than some contrived phony-baloney stuff is the first time I will ever buy anything from a telemarketer.