The surprise of the spring
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Mar 15, 2011 
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On the day pitchers and catchers reported to Yankees spring training, no one would have been surprised to learn that Bartolo Colon would be pitching a simulated game on March 15. Probably would have been hurt by then, or auditioning for another team.
The surprise is that, Colon pitched six simulated innings this morning, and the Yankees coaching staff intently watched every pitch.
“I had an opinion on Bartolo, but it was from years ago,” Joe Girardi said. “You kind of wanted to see what was there, because we hadn’t seen him pitch in a while. I don’t remember the last time we saw him pitch in a big-league game. I’ve been pleasantly surprised.”
By no means has Colon won a spot in the Yankees rotation, but he’s shown far more than expected (more than I expected, anyway). His fastball has lost some velocity but gained some movement, and his changeup is still a legitimate pitch. Today he was working on a slider that Girardi said looked pretty good.
Right now, all of the Yankees back-of-the-rotation options are performing pretty well. Freddy Garcia had a rocky start and Ivan Nova had a rocky inning, but otherwise they’ve been good. With two and a half weeks to go, pretty much every possibility is on the table.
As expected a month ago
Nova and Garcia in the rotation, Mitre in the bullpen
Colon pitched in winter ball, and it could be that he’s still ahead of the hitters. If that’s the case, the hitters could catch up in the final two and a half weeks, and the Yankees could decide they’ve been seeing nothing but an illusion.
Garcia falters
Nova and Colon in the rotation, Mitre in the bullpen
The worst outing of the four rotation candidates belongs to Garcia, who was pretty bad his last time out. It could be that he’ll continue to slip, Colon will continue to thrive and the Yankees will decide Colon is their best bet of the two veterans.
Mitre released
Veterans and the young guy make the team, Mitre is odd man out
Joel Sherman introduced this possibility today, saying there are some scouts who believe the Yankees will ultimately release Mitre. I’d be surprised if that happened because, 1: Mitre’s pitched pretty well and 2: Girardi seems to like him. That said, Mitre is out of options, so if the Yankees believe both veterans still have something left and want to keep Nova, they won’t have much choice but to get rid of Mitre one way or another.
Nova to Scranton/Wilkes-Barre
The only candidate with options is sent to Triple-A
Not saying this is a likely scenario, but it seems more likely today than it seemed a month ago. The only way to keep all four candidates is to ship Nova to Scranton/Wilkes-Barre. It would let the Yankees get whatever they can get out of Garcia and Colon, and if/when one of those two gets hurt, Nova would naturally slide into the rotation. Every other decision eliminates a candidate. This one doesn’t.
Associated Press photo of Colon from earlier this spring
Colon keeps pitching well and impressing people outside of the Yanks. But can his arm be trusted all year? I don’t know. But there will be pitchers available at some point on other teams and if Colon proves even halfway reliable he could be a piece of a trade that allows a team, in the short term, to have another arm available for this season while giving up a different starter they can’t resign. With his opt out clause, isn’t it smart to do a SIGN AND TRADE? here’s how:
http://yankeesgameday.blogspot.....trade.html
Chad, who’s your pick for the Dawson Award (best rookie in camp). For me, it’s a 3 way tie right now, between Vazquez, Nunez and Banuelos. I’m covering all bases here. This, of course is just a simulated vote.
I think Nova will be sent down as well. To think both Colon and Garcia will pitch well and stay healthy is risky. Nova will be up – but if he’s up to start they could be left shorthanded.
I actually disagree that Colon will have any real trade value at the end of spring training. A team might be willing to give up an insignificant piece, but he’s not going to bring back anything that will instantly upgrade the Yankees big league roster, and he’s certainly not going to bring back an impressive prospect. If he’s good enough to have any sort of trade value, then he’s good enough to make the roster.
Ultimately, all of the Yankees concerns about him — especially his age and the fact he hasn’t pitched in a year and a half — are going to be concerns for any other team.
Dave, i’m all for keeping as many options as possible. Keep all four and put Nova in Scranton until one of the other three collapses.
“I think Nova will be sent down as well. To think both Colon and Garcia will pitch well and stay healthy is risky. Nova will be up – but if he’s up to start they could be left shorthanded”
The chances of Colon and Garcia making 30 starts each are probably somewhere very close to 0%. Nova will definitely get an opportunity. Could stick as the long man with Mitre injured, no?
I think I’ll do a Dawson post later today. I think right now I’d vote for Vazquez. Ultimately, Banuelos will have about 10 innings and won’t pitch in the final week and a half. If Nunez plays his way onto the roster, that could certainly make him a favorite. Right now, though, I’d vote for Vazquez. The guy was practically unknown when camp opened, now Girardi is talking about him every day.
I am very impressed with Colon..Looking at the photo you posted, I don’t think any of the other pitching candidates can levitate a ball using only their minds. If Colon can continue doing that and bring it to games, he’ll be unhittable.
I think Dawson award goes to Vazquez
Thanks, Chad. It should spur a rousing debate. Many unprintable and some will be just….
I know he has not pitched in a while, but when you have a former Cy Young winner and two-time 20 game winner who shows he can still hit 94 with movement and good control, and has a change and slider–well, to me that means #4 in this rotation. Until his arm falls off or his back collapses, I put my money on him.
The final roster is going to be a struggle, but, in a good way. A lot of them have so far earned spots, just not enough room. Nice problem to have for Girardi. Not many injuries and so far, none that serious, except maybe Cervelli.
I really don’t understand the ‘logic’ that Colon is an injury waiting to happen if he pitches in the rotation.
He had elbow problems for about 4 years and tried pitching through them to no avail and had the surgery in 2009. It wasn’t TJ surgery, just chips, and he’s taken plenty of time to recover. Before the elbow problems he was a work horse throughout his career. He’s already throwing harder than the last time he pitched in the majors (12 starts in 2009 with the White Sox) and I wouldn’t be surprised to see him have a good season whether with the Yankees or another team. Based on what I’ve seen, he’s a big upgrade from the 2010 version of Javier Vazquez, and him throwing a 6 inning simulated game today means the Yankees are seriously looking at him for a rotation spot.
Very few staffs, or bullpens for that matter, go through an entire season without some unforeseen issue arising. I’d like to see the ‘tryouts’ for Colon and Garcia extend into April, maybe even May, depending on results.
I’m optimistic about their success, bit I keep thinking back to the RS rotation with Smoltz and Penny, and how the Yankees bombed both into the other league.
Nova will pitch on the bigs, sooner or later.
“I think Nova will be sent down as well. To think both Colon and Garcia will pitch well and stay healthy is risky. Nova will be up – but if he’s up to start they could be left shorthanded.”
To me is this classic Yankee fandom. Dream about the kids, but when pressed, advocate the Yankees hedging their bets, on March 15th.
There will always been Colon’s and Garcia’s available every spring. Always a reason to keep a guy with options on the end of the phone rather than in the rotation.
If Nova is ready, he should get his chance.
Colon or Garcia can go 4-5, 4.80 someplace else.
Not sure who I’d call “the surprise of the spring” so far. Colon, Garcia, Chavez, Vazquez, a lot of the kids, Prior.
Didn’t Feliz change his mind and say he wants to start now?
I think it’s still way too early to say anything definitive about the four guys. As we saw with Cisco, an injury can happen at any time, and throw your plans asunder.
If it’s March 30, and all four are still neck and neck, I think Chad’s point about Nova to AAA to lie in wait is the logical course. Why lose choices if you don’t have to? The chances that all four will still be healthy/neck and neck???
Most likely that something will happen, or someone will take themself out of it.
Stuckey, my thoughts on Colon are based on the way he’s throwing the baseball, not hedging bets. If he was throwing the ball at 86-87 I’d have him on the first bus out of Tampa but a former Cy Young winner throwing in the low to mid 90′s with movement merits a long look.
“To me is this classic Yankee fandom. Dream about the kids, but when pressed, advocate the Yankees hedging their bets, on March 15th.”
Dead on. And there was a discussion this AM on MLB that the FO’s pratice of constantly bringing in these guys and placing them ahead of the young talent the NYYs have in the farm system is starting to wear on morale.
Jorge Vazquez reminds me of John Jaha.
“Stuckey, my thoughts on Colon are based on the way he’s throwing the baseball, not hedging bets. ”
Hasn’t Nova been throwing 94, performing well in ST?
Are you saying Colon is throwing better than Nova, or that Nova as options?
I think it’s the latter, but I’ll be glad to be corrected.
btw – I’m perfectly okay if someone want to choose Colon over Garcia or Mitre, but sending Nova down even if he performs is hedging, by rule.
backbench,
Who was saying this on MLB?
Stuckey, I’ve seen Nova pitch once in the spring and he threw the ball well. I think Nova will be in the rotation in 2010 and get a full shot, I don’t think it really matters whether it’s in April, May or June.
I just think when you have a guy with a proven track record throwing as well as Colon and will most likely lose him if he isn’t in the rotation you have to make that decision very carefully.
Didn’t Feliz change his mind and say he wants to start now?
—
Yep, he said today that he wants to be a starter.
http://sports.espn.go.com/dall.....id=6217605
“New research conducted for the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency finds that Americans rank the use of performance-enhancing drugs as the most serious problem facing sports today.”
This quote is from an espn article. What a joke…
“And there was a discussion this AM on MLB that the FO’s pratice of constantly bringing in these guys and placing them ahead of the young talent the NYYs have in the farm system is starting to wear on morale”
For all the talent the Yankees have in their system, only one guy, Ivan Nova, was in the neighborhood of being ready to contribute at the big league level in 2011. Adding guys like Colon and Garcia gives them ONE year’s worth of depth that they’ll undoubedtly need is the smart move. Nobody’s development gets hurt by them being with the team this year.
MG,
I’ve said this before, I don’t understand the logic of sending Nova down with the explanation that he will get his chance eventually because one of the guys being chosen over him will inevitably fail.
Why not just fast forward to the inevitable?
“I just think when you have a guy with a proven track record throwing as well as Colon and will most likely lose him if he isn’t in the rotation you have to make that decision very carefully.”
Would you be onboard with Colon over Garcia then?
Was that written by George Mitchell?
GB7, here is the link http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/.....id=6220145
Stuckey, I’d prefer Colon to Garcia at this point in time, yes…
“New research conducted for the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency finds that Americans rank the use of performance-enhancing drugs as the most serious problem facing sports today.”
Wonder how many of these fans were hopped up on caffeine when they responded to the poll?
MG,
Cool, I say we roll with Nova and Colon then… you with me?
Patrick, when an article states that it an athlete’s responsibility to be a “hero” or teach the youth about the hazards of drugs, I tune thm out. Somewhere along the line, it’s the parents responsibility to teach their own kids. Parents have gotten to the point that they look at teachers, cops and celebrities as unpaid babysitters, and when it goes bad, it’s never the parents at fault. I call it BS.
Chad-Excellent notes regarding these 4 hurlers.
I think the fact that all of them have performed well so far is great for the team.
Let the competition continue for another 2+ weeks.
I don’t trust Colon or Garcia at this point. I would like to see them throw a lot more in the next 2 weeks before I’m sold of either of them.
Right now I have much more trust in Nova and Mitre(given their young age of course).
Nothing wrong with healthy competition.
and if Banuelos had a full season in AA last year with 140 innings I’d be strongly in favor of him taking a rotation spot now, he has a much higher ceiling than Nova and is more likely to be a consistent starter in the rotation. The jury is still out on Nova, he’s going to have to continue to develop over the next couple of years.
stuckey99 March 15th, 2011 at 3:49 pm
MG,
Cool, I say we roll with Nova and Colon then… you with me?
——————————————
I’d really like to see Nova get through the order 2X in spring game before making that decision, it’s still early and there is plenty of time for that to happen.
MG March 15th, 2011 at 3:28 pm
Good information Jose, thanks.
# The Mets are Pond Scum March 15th, 2011 at 1:29 pm
Guiseppe,
He may cite his usual public tagline, but Mr. Cashman has never struck me as a man who doesn’t think out all of the possibilities over time even when he is publicly saying differently.
————–
I’m sure that’s true.
However, Montero hasn’t even played a single game in the majors yet and Sanchez is probably 2-3 years away from being in Montero’s position.
Even the best prospects don’t always pan out. There is too much unknown between the two for Cashman and Co. to design any strategies anytime soon in the event that both Montero and Sanchez are vying for the primary catcher’s role in 2-3 years.
It’s not about ST results. Especially this early in ST.
The Yankees have spent 2 years getting Nova ready for this opportunity.
He’s healthy, has a much bigger arm, and isn’t innings challenged than either Colon, Harcia, or Mitre.
Frankly, he hasn’t done anything to lose the job.
Remember, of ST results mattered, either Aceves or Mitre would have been the fifth starter coming out of ST since both outpitched Hughes.
The Yankees want a younger arm in one of those slots. It’s the smartest way to go about it.
Unless the guy completely falls part over the next 10 days, he’s got the 4th spot in the rotation.
The fifth spot and long relief is what is up for grabs.
Felix Hernandez commercial
http://seattle.mariners.mlb.co.....8;c_id=sea
MG, understood, but what I hearing is pretty much what I’ve been saying. Jury is always going to be out on ALL young pitchers minus the very rare few exceptions that come out of the gate fully-formed.
What I’m reading is a greater trust over a past track record (despite the obvious warts, and if I understand correctly, no faith in long term viability) over the natural, unavoidable uncertainty of a young starter.
Which is pretty much exactly what I was talking about.
“I only think about today. I don’t do tomorrow, next month or next year. I deal with what the Good Lord gives to handle today. I keep it simple. It works for me”.
The words of Mariano Rivera.
Not only should every baseball player follow those words, so should fans who try to project what prospects will be three years down the road. It’s fools gold.
Problems with morale? Not with the Yankees. If a kid has a problem with waiting in the wings for the Yankees, they’ll soon find real problems with morale on the Pirates, D-backs, or Nationals.
Also, going thru a lineup 2X in ST isn’t going to tell anybody anything about Nova.
You look at his full body of work to do that.
Just because he had trouble with that in his few starts in the majors doesn’t mean it’s a chronic problem. It wasn’t in AAA last year.
You have to give younger players a chance and live with the growing pains.
For example, Montero has been awful defensively his last 2 starts.
Clearly, he’s not ready to be a full-time major league catcher yet.
However, you live with his growing pains as a backup because his potential makes it worth dealing with the growing pains.
Same goes for Nova.
If he pitches well enough to hold down a back end rotation role, the Yankees have a cost controlled 23 yr old kid with a big arm in the rotation.
The upside makes it worth the risk of putting him in the rotation.
“Problems with morale? Not with the Yankees. If a kid has a problem with waiting in the wings for the Yankees, they’ll soon find real problems with morale on the Pirates, D-backs, or Nationals.”
m, I don’t 18-22 year old kids are worrying about how many World Series they may get to play in.
At that stage, they want to make the majors, stay there and secure their living. If that happens to be for the Pirates, D-backs or Nationals, I suspect they can live with it.
Don’t confused minor leaguers with fans.. different animals.
Stuckey, I have the patience to live with a young starter struggling, how many other Yankee fans have the same patience? I’m just intrigued by Colon at this point in time and think he could really help the Yankees this year if he continues to throw this way. Garcia has much less interest for me, if he’s in the rotation he’ll be OK but he isn’t exactly fun to watch nibbling away at hitters throwing 86-87. I don’t make the decisions, though, it’s up to Girardi and Rothschild.
I know it needs to be taken w/ a grain of salt, but Girardi has repeatedly said he is taking the best arms north…I don’t see them stashing Nova if he is a better choice.
“Who was saying this on MLB?”
Believe it was Joel Sherman in a very animated manner. The point was also raised that if the young pitching talent was as good as advertised, then the NYYs should:
a) Give Nova the spot he deserves (as per SJ), and
b) Make a commitment to bring these guys up and let them get their year of trial by fire in the bigs, understanding what is to be gained long term.
Nothing we haven’t heard before, but certainly expressed eloquently and emphatically. This point about morale was emphasized.
That’s my point. I think Yankee prospects and minor leaguers know the deal and appreciate being with a great organization. Thus no problem with morale.
Cashman has been pretty good at finding homes for those who are patient and work hard, but who ultimately don’t have a place with the Yankees.
I really think if there are no other injuries, it’s time to waive Mitre.
I hope they don’t demote Nova, but I do see the “sense” in it although it’s managing the club from a place of fear if they do demote him.
If they use their option on Nova and send him down, then they have an immediate replacement for any of the 5 starters or long man in case of injury.
The other argument for demoting Nova is what if you waive 1 of Colon/Garcia/Mitre and give Nova a spot in the rotation and then Nova gets injured or can’t handle the role? In that case, you will lose the waived player as an option to replace Nova.
By demoting Nova and keeping the three journeymen, you keep a deeper base of pitchers to cover the rotation for the season.
That said, it’s a silly way to manage a club. If they think Nova is better than the 3 other guys, he should be given the spot hands down. He’s young. He throws hard. He’s fearless. I want to see what he could do over a guy like Mitre.
Still, I won’t be shocked to see the front office play “save it for a rainy day” with Nova since it enables them to keep the other 3 guys.
If CC, Hughes or AJ were to get injured, we’d probably be thanking our lucky stars that we had Nova to come up from Scranton and the other 3 guys to cover the other 2 spots and long man role.
That said, I don’t expect Mitre to go anywhere. He’s a Girardi pet. If Colon & Garcia don’t fumble down the stretch, you may see Nova in AAA.
Vineyard Yankee March 15th, 2011 at 3:56 pm
MG March 15th, 2011 at 3:28 pm
Good information Jose, thanks.
_____________
That’s not Jose….nor Aldo.
But Garcia and Colon are veterans who have been there and done that. They have won CY youngs, pitched in the playoffs, etc. They know how to get through lineups 3 times and have no problem throwing a lot of pitches. Garcia and Colon are not going to go into Fenway Park on a Sunday Night and get nervous and overthrow and walk the ballpark. They know how to get outs.
Nova will get his chance, but for now, the experience should win out. We’re trying to win ball games and doing it with veterans gives us the best chance. Not to mention, the stuff both of them have showed has been impressive. Garcia touched 94 and Colon is flashing great movement of his pitches to go along with low 90s and good secondary stuff.
Garcia has been consistently clocked at 89-91 all spring.
He had as many quality starts as Cliff Lee, and more QS than Josh Beckett and didnt throw above 88 for the White Sox.
The guy is a good pitcher who competes and knows how to grind thru games.
Colon has never been a grinder. He’s always relied on his natural ability to throw very, very hard.
He can’t rely on that now. So, we have to see if he can grind to win major league games.
We didn’t see that since he didn’t pitch in the majors last year.
He’s interesting. However, I would take him over Nova in the rotation.
I also would be hard pressed to take him over Garcia because current track records suggest that would be a mistake.
I’d take him over Mitre. Just not sure if Colon wants to be a long man at this stage of his career.
I don’t know what to think about Mitre. He’s like an old pair of rubber slippers you don’t throw out because they’re not broken. But they sit under the bench and go largely unused. But if my husband threw them out, it’d take me a week to notice they were gone. And I wouldn’t even give them a second thought.
I’m curious if Garcia was really hitting 92mph like the YES gun suggested the other day or not. If that’s the case and he’s building his velocity back into the low 90′s, he’ll be an effective pitcher here with his change.
m, Nova has now tasted big league life. The travel, the per diem, the paychecks, the atmosphere.
There is NO way in hell the guy is going to take going back to SCRANTON has a sign he plays for a great organization.
You’ve read the guy’s quotes. He isn’t going to take well to being sent down in favor of a COUPLE of retreads.
Now that alone should not be the tipping point of the Yankees decision, but it plays into the larger point being raised. What message is it sending to the Yankees wealth of high-level starting depth, the current calling card of their farm system.
You don’t want guys either playing for a trade or playing without any hope of being called on.
What are Warren and Noesi pitching for this year if the guy in front of them can’t even get the call?
“The other argument for demoting Nova is what if you waive 1 of Colon/Garcia/Mitre and give Nova a spot in the rotation and then Nova gets injured or can’t handle the role?”
Phelps, Warren, Noesi, Mitchell, Brackman
Or maybe they try Joba again LOL
The veteran, “they won’t get nervous in Fenway Park” stuff is nonsense.
Bartolo Colon didn’t even pitch in the majors last year.
You want to see nervous. Watch a veteran trying to hang on. Guys like that are just as susceptible to nerves, even mores in many cases, than youmg guys.
One thing we saw with Nova last hear. He definitely wasn’t nervous nor intimidated.
Don’t people remember when Bautusta tried to intimidate him in Toronto last year after Nova dusted him?
The kid not only didn’t back down, he struck him out.
Nerves aren’t an issue.
“Garcia and Colon are not going to go into Fenway Park on a Sunday Night and get nervous and overthrow and walk the ballpark. They know how to get outs.”
Oh c’mon. This is one of sport’s biggest cliches.
I can name a bunch of nobodies that have thrown big games against the Sox the last decade.
“but for now, the experience should win out. We’re trying to win ball games and doing it with veterans gives us the best chance.”
So just for the record, Yankee fans. Next time you want to complain about the organization or Brian Cashman for not bringing up the kids and trading them for veterans, remember, this is exactly what some fans want.
GQ did a piece on Jeter:
“A lot of times, when you say things, people will try to turn it into [something else]. Sometimes someone asks you a question, and if you don’t comment or dispute what they say, they’ll take it as though you agree. I’ve always been very aware of what I’m saying, but I’m also aware of what you’re saying. I always want to make sure that my point is clear.”
http://www.gq.com/sports/profi.....th-mnookin
BoJo March 15th, 2011 at 4:20 pm
Thanks Brad, nice to know that you are the group spokesman.
stuckey,
You obviously feel strongly about it.
Let’s just say that I think Nova would be upset about it, but he would take it well.
He’d be a good soldier and pitch hard. Be ready for the call. Because there are others behind him that will be getting ready, too.
Hughes got demoted multiple times. As far as I’m concerned Nova isn’t any better and doesn’t deserve to be treated any better just he got a taste of the life.
*just because he got a taste of the life.
(not saying that’s a valid reason, but you did bring it up)
Vineyard Yankee March 15th, 2011 at 4:30 pm
BoJo March 15th, 2011 at 4:20 pm
Thanks Brad, nice to know that you are the group spokesman.
___________
NP John–just want to make sure that you give props to the right person.
Nova won’t take it well if you read his quotes this Spring.
Nobody is a “good soldier” going to AAA or anywhere else in the minors.
My nephew had a major league invite to camp. Since January, he has known he has known he’s starting the year in Altoona (AA).
He got sent down and guess what? He was pissed! lol
Manny Banuelos knows he’s starting the year in Trenton. Yet, he keeps saying he’s ready for the majors. Why do you think that is?
You think he will be happy when he’s sent down?
Ivan Nova has had a taste of the majors. He knows this is his time.
If he gets sent down, regardless of any public comments, he’s going to be PISSED.
As he should be because the goal is to be in the majors and not toil in the minors.
Could all 4 make the final 25 man roster at the expense of Boone Logan?
Ivan Nova’s time is NOW !!!!!
Sigh. Can’t wait to hear about the fit he’s going to throw. Or him not reporting to Scranton if it happens.
Way to totally misconstrue what I wrote.
Do you really think that Nova won’t do what he’s told?
I said he’d be unhappy. Who wouldn’t? But yeah…
How Hughes was treated has nothing to do with Nova.
The Yankees were a different team at that time and also in a different place.
It’s pretty tough to sell Ivan Nova isn’t one of the five best starting pitchers the Yankees have at this point in time.
Girardi always says he takes the best 12 pitchers north.
If that’s the case, Nova has already made the team.
SJ…..I guess Tony gets to face off against Manny B again…….Will they be teammates come All-Star break ??? Futures this time around ???/
We’re talking about a hypothetical situation of Nova being optioned.
I predict IF that happens he will be upset. PISSED even.
But he’ll do what the Yankees tell him to do. Because he’ll have no choice.
If Nova loses a competition because the Yanks are afraid to lose Sergio Mitre or Bartolo Colon based off a few good ST innings (and in Colon’s case, after being 25 lbs overweight and not pitching in a year and being in your late 30s), he has every right to be ticked off.
Also, Hughes never actually got demoted. The only time he was sent down was at the end of ST in 09 when there was no spot for him and he knew that in ST (in 07 and 08, he had injuries and rehab for most of the season, he didn’t get sent down because of performance).
I agree that Nova’s time is now. If the Yankees think they’ve struck gold in Garcia and Colon, then they have to convince one of them to play swingman and waive Mitre.
Sending Nova down, if he pitches well the rest of the way, sends a clear message to the team that the front office is picking guys for spots by worrying about “what if’s” rather than merit.
Right now Garcia had the worst start out of all of them, although his velocity in that start was high enough to make you want to hang on to him.
BoJo March 15th, 2011 at 4:33 pm
No Brad this is not John. Please don’t start the same old game. I don’t want to play.
m, conversely, no one is suggesting Ivan Nova is going to go on a hunger strike or go awol.
The point being raised was morale within the organization, which applies to everyone, including btw – the 4 OTHER pitchers with major league potential that will be making up Scranton rotation.
I don’t know about you, but I’d rather of these guys working and competing interally to be the guy who gets the next call, not looking at the MLB waiver wire to figure out how far down the ML depth chart they fell today.
Christ. Another day with Ralph and Alice Kramden. Why don’t you two go to your room and wait for Ed Norton?
Demoted was the wrong word. Should have said optioned. But Hughes was optioned multiple
times. And I brought him up because he handled it well. Though the last time it happened he begged to stay up as a reliever. That worked out well.
m March 15th, 2011 at 4:43 pm
We’re talking about a hypothetical situation of Nova being optioned.
I predict IF that happens he will be upset. PISSED even.
But he’ll do what the Yankees tell him to do. Because he’ll have no choice.
______________
Won’t be the first or last time for that. I’d be worried if a player on the cusp wasn’t upset.
I think that sending Nova to AAA and letting him get pissed could be a good thing in the end. If he is angry when he gets sent down, he will be that much more motivated when he gets called up. It is hard to imagine that Colon and Garcia, if they are the 4th and 5th starters, will both last until the All-Star break. Garcia could do it since he has been pretty durable, but Colon is unlikely to make it that far.
On another note, I had the pleasure of being in Tampa last Friday and Sunday to see the Yankees play. What a treat. Seeing Mo strike out the side in his first appearance this Spring was special. He is such a unique athlete. He is poised, graceful and classy.
If you are a baseball fan and you have not been to Spring Training, you have to go. Get there early for the workouts, autographs, etc. It is a great time.
Hughes was never sent down unfairly though. That would be like if he lost his spot last year to Gaudin, Aceves, or Mitre in a competition because they were afraid to lose them.
They all wanted Hughes to win the job last year and it was his to lose, ditto this year with Nova. Even if veterans pitch better, there is more that goes into it than stats. If the favorite did nothing to lose his spot, he shouldn’t.
“It is hard to imagine that Colon and Garcia, if they are the 4th and 5th starters, will both last until the All-Star break. Garcia could do it since he has been pretty durable, but Colon is unlikely to make it that far. ”
Still waiting for someone to explain to me the logic if giving the rotation spot to someone just about EVERYONE expects to flame out?
Are we also assuming that Colon is going to be GREAT until he invariably implodes? Is that the assumption going over my head here?
D-Man:
Good point. If having Nova break into the rotation as part of the long-term strategy to break in one rookie each year in the #5 role, then it is his to lose.
However, if the real criteria is who best positions the team to get off to a fast start and win games, then Garcia and Colon have as good a chance as Nova.
It’s pretty tough to sell Ivan Nova isn’t one of the five best starting pitchers the Yankees have at this point in time.
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It’s tough to sell because it isn’t true!
Nova is clearly one of the 5 best starting pitchers the Yankees have on their roster and I think they would be crazy to leave him in AAA. Colon has opened a lot of eyes but it’s just spring training after all. Nova has better stuff, a better ceiling, better health, etc..
The Yankees don’t always operate on fair.
Well, anyway they could let Freddie go and keep Colon as the second starter.
I also think people underestimate how quick a faltering pitcher will get the hook. I see the idea that Nova will be in the minors “ready” for the major league call up, but when will the Yankees be ready to make that call?
How many times must a pitcher falter or fail before being sent away? Injury is one thing, but poor performance is trickier.
I think they’ve got to take their best pitchers north, whoever they are. Using Nova as a back up plan if he’s better than two other pitchers, is ridiculous.
Where is the proof he needs any motivation?
If you believe Colon won’t make it to ASB, what’s the point of sending Nova to the minors? He should be in the rotation. It would be a waste to send him to AAA for a guy who can’t last the season.
Folks can’t freak out over giving young players a chance.
You never know of they are “ready” until you put them in the lineup. When you do, you live with the ups and downs.
Nova showed last year he belonged. If anything, the guy who didn’t pitch in the majors last year (Colon) has the bigger burden of showing he belongs.
GreenBeret7 March 15th, 2011 at 4:47 pm
Mind your own business. BTW, are you Ed ? Most likely Mr. Ed…………backside.
Hey GB….Who are Ralph and Alice Kramden ???? Are they from Brooklyn ???
What does a pitcher being “overweight” have anything to do with the results he’s had?
It doesn’t.
RESULTS is the name of the game no matter what physical condition the player is in.
The Yanks gave an “overweight” pitcher $162M – the largest (pun intended) contract ever given to a pitcher.
I don’t imagine Cashman has thought twice about that investment ever since.
Colon’s agent has told the Yankees that he would accept the long man/spot starter role if offered.
We know that Mitre has performed relatively well in that role. I simply wonder if Colon would/could. Saying you’re willing to do it, and actually being able to do it are two different things.
The only thing is Girardi is very good at distributing the work out in the bullpen, so I don’t think Colon would be allowed to get rusty out there, which would be my concern. We know Mitre has handled that.
He’s not a star, but Mitre has done a lot better than a lot of people here give him credit for.
And who knows if Colon and Garcai can or cannot make it to the ASB? I recall other veteran pitchers coming back from surgery and making it the whole year. Veterans know what the grind is and know how to pace themselves through the season.
stuckey,
I’d gather it is the “ride the hot hand” theory and try and squeeze as much out of Colon as possible. Of course, some are not accounting for the fact that he is likely just overmatching minor leaguers (and having the benefit of being much more pitching-ready because of winter ball), rather than a guy having a resurrection at age 38 after not pitching last year.
The Yankees don’t always operate on fair.
However, they also don’t operate on blatantly unfair.
It would be blatantly unfair to send Nova to the minors based on what we are seeing this Spring.
Besides it being blatantly unfair, it would be a very, very bad baseball decision.
Not saying it’s right, but it could be that the Yankees are truly intrigued by Colon now. If he has a good spring, I think they’ll roll the dice and not worry about his potential health. They’ll ride him until he gives out.
# Giuseppe Franco March 15th, 2011 at 4:56 pm
What does a pitcher being “overweight” have anything to do with the results he’s had?
It doesn’t.
RESULTS is the name of the game no matter what physical condition the player is in.
The Yanks gave an “overweight” pitcher $162M – the largest (pun intended) contract ever given to a pitcher.
I don’t imagine Cashman has thought twice about that investment ever since.
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Doesn’t Colon have a history of injuries that many suggest are due to him being overweight? Doesn’t that interfere with having any results?
If your health is unreliable, I think that’s a big consideration. CC is a amongst the most reliable pitchers in baseball today. No comparison.
If anybody is interested in getting the 2011 Yankee Media Guide, they’re now available as I got my copy in the mail today.
After Lee and Pettitte the Yankees had to do something about their rotation and Colon and Garcia were what Cashman deemed the best options out there. I think the odds of either of them having anything close to a good year in the AL East are slim to say the least. They are what they are.
I think the Yankees have a small hope that they may catch lightening in a bottle, but they are really trying to get to the midway point where they can use their minor league resources (not B, B & B) to get a decent starter for the stretch run.
Look it up…Colon’s injuries included knee problems, elbow chips, and shoulder issues…All typical injuries from a pitcher…IIRC, he was no thin chicken when he won the Cy Young award or when he won 20 games on more than one occassion. The guy knows how to compete and win.
Doreen,
That being case, I’d give Colon Mitre’s role and send Mitre packing.
This way, if either Garcia or Nova bomb, you slide Colon in.
Fact is, Mitre has been a poor SP in his career.
If Colon is cool with that role to start the season, I’d give him Mitre’s spot on the roster.
SJ44,
I think Cashman’s desire is to have Nova make this team as he trys to make this roster younger and better.
Mitre remains a mystery to me. For a pitcher that Girardi supposedly likes, Gaudin and Mosely were relied upon more in long relief during 2010 than Mitre was.
Regardless of what happens to Mitre or Colon, I still believe that Andrew Brackman will factor in during 2011 once he gets some AAA innings under his belt.
Strictly hypothetical. Let’s say Colom and Nova are your last two starters. Mitre longman, Garcia signs with another team.
Heaven forbid. But what if there’s an injury to any if the starters. Who gets the first callup?
Pat M. March 15th, 2011 at 4:56 pm
Hey GB….Who are Ralph and Alice Kramden ???? Are they from Brooklyn ???
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LMAO. hey, Pat…how’s it going? I thought that the Kramdens lived in Queens, but these two/three belong in Flushing.
As far as the pitching goes, I can you yours and SJ’s views on what to do with 5 pitchers, but, in my profession, I always wanted as many options as possible, because anything could happen to trash your plans. Still, tough decisions ahead for Cashman and Girardi, but, it’s better than not having any choices.
Does this blog have a “Guess the Opening Day roster” contest? Can we get Chad to sponsor it with a set of 4 tickets to the winner for a home game during the season?
The original battle was between 4 guys for 3 spots. If no one pitches himself out of the race somebody will go on the DL. there is plenty of time left for things to sort themselves out. Right now I don’t see anybody being optioned or let go.
With any combination or Garcia, Nova or Colon in the rotation they don’t have to be stellar, just good enough to keep ius in the game for 5 – 6 innings. With the Yankee bullpen strength it should be enough. Anything better than 5 or 6 is a bonus imo.
I think it would be a really poor move to send Nova down to AAA. This is a young guy who has earned his shot, he has a live arm and guts. The battle to me is between Colon and Garcia for the number five.
At any rate, we’ve got to open some roster spots for Chavez, Colon, Garcia and Montero. Who goes? I’m not a Mitre hater, but what are you going to do?
They are going north with twelve pitchers plus a corner and middle infielder and backup catcher. I think Chavez, Nunez and I’m not sure about the catcher. (Montero has work to do defensively)