The LoHud Yankees Blog

A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Robertson to the rescue

Posted by: Brian Heyman - Posted in Misc on May 11, 2011 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

David Robertson certainly has the material to work out of traffic jams on the bases. He did it again Tuesday night in the Yankees’ 3-1 win over Kansas City.

Joe Girardi brought in this asset after Freddy Garcia allowed the first two Royals to reach in the seventh. Robertson loaded the bases with a one-out walk, then got Alcides Escobar to chase a wicked curve and got Chris Getz trying to check his swing on a low-and-in curve.

So what specifically is it about the 26-year-old righty that allows him to excel after being dropped into those trouble-all-around-him situations?

“Maybe because I do it so often to him,” Girardi said, laughing. “The kid’s got good stuff. He’s got late movement on his fastball and he’s got a very good curveball. He just has the ability to do that because he’s a strikeout guy. He’s been a strikeout guy since he came up, and he just continues to do it for us.”

He isn’t always perfect in these situations, having allowed six inherited runners to score. But he has stranded the other 11.

“It’s fun to get out of them, but it’s not fun when you don’t,” Robertson said.

His own numbers are glittering so far at 1-0 with a 1.35 ERA across 15 outings. He has fanned 18 in 13 1/3 innings.

Robertson has learned how to compose himself in the middle of the chaos..

“If I’m stepping off, it’s usually because the crowds are loud,” Robertson said. “I need to calm myself down because I don’t want to become erratic. I’ve had situations where I’ve gotten too amped and made a pitch that cost me a passed ball or a wild pitch, something you don’t want to do in that situation. If you see me to step off, I’m trying to just take a second, catch my breath and get ready to deliver the pitch.”

There’s much to like about this bullpen, especially with what Robertson is doing, with Joba Chamberlain throwing consistently harder and with Mariano Rivera already owning 13 saves in 15 tries. That 13th save came in this latest game, beating by one day the earliest he had reached that mark in his Cooperstown-bound career.

Rafael Soriano, though, has hit a few bumps along the way in the eighth. Today the Yankees will see what the MRI machine reveals about his two-time surgically repaired right elbow after he reported a little soreness in it Tuesday and was unavailable.

 
 

Advertisement

315 Responses to “Robertson to the rescue”

  1. Erin May 11th, 2011 at 9:03 am

    Robertson rocks. :)

  2. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 9:08 am

    Yeah, but don’t let Brian Cashman near him. Apparently he is taboo, like that tiki idol that time the Brady Bunch went to Hawaii.

  3. Erin May 11th, 2011 at 9:09 am

    stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 9:08 am
    Yeah, but don?t let Brian Cashman near him. Apparently he is taboo, like that tiki idol that time the Brady Bunch went to Hawaii.

    **********************

    :lol:

  4. YsGuy May 11th, 2011 at 9:10 am

    when soriano comes back, he’s the 7th inning guy in my book.

    lol @ mulletville, bj!

  5. upstate kate May 11th, 2011 at 9:11 am

    it is a wonder that the Yankees continue to keep Cash around, as much trouble as he causes :)

  6. Shame Spencer May 11th, 2011 at 9:11 am

    stuckey bringing the jokes this morning. I like it. Great win yesterday, gearing up for another tonight. AJ’s looked really good so far this season and I expect he’ll be able to keep the Royals in check.

  7. Bronx Jeers May 11th, 2011 at 9:12 am

    That 2-2 curve to Escobar was a major fist-pumper.

  8. Shame Spencer May 11th, 2011 at 9:12 am

    upstate kate – I was thinking the same thing. 2009 seems like so much longer ago when I’m here :)

  9. blake May 11th, 2011 at 9:14 am

    D Rob is a secret weapon. Its tough to put a value on having basically an extra guy around with closer stuff and ability that you can drop into these high leverage situations and actually have him escape them most of the time.

    He’s been doing this since he found a way to wiggle out of that bases loaded jam in the 09 playoffs. I commend Girardi for actually using him in the manned he has because it’s likely saved a lot of wins.

  10. blake May 11th, 2011 at 9:16 am

    *manner*

  11. MTU May 11th, 2011 at 9:18 am

    Only Robertson can prevent forest fires.

    ;)

  12. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 9:20 am

    Betsy

    I haven’t changed my mind about what Hughes could do as a starter. I’m saying that right now the Yankees would be better off because Hughes is not healthy and has spent most of his Yankee career as a starter on the DL. I don’t think Hughes or Joba should be relievers! Or really ever have been relievers except for maybe an initial cup of coffee.

  13. upstate kate May 11th, 2011 at 9:20 am

    Actually one of my favorite D-rob memories is one where he lost a game. He was so angry w/ himself he was in the dugout chewing on his glove.

  14. MTU May 11th, 2011 at 9:21 am

    Last night’s game was a professional win.

    Lot’s of positives to take away.

    Shows the quality of the team.

    Just wait till all cylinders are firing.

  15. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 9:22 am

    Cashman didn’t kill Wang’s career but it definitely didn’t help by telling him not to run during his rehab.

  16. Mike Ri May 11th, 2011 at 9:23 am

    Actually one of my favorite D-rob memories is one where he lost a game. He was so angry w/ himself he was in the dugout chewing on his glove.

    —–

    HAHA . .i remember that ! . . funny stuff

  17. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 9:24 am

    Then again, I’ve never blamed Cashman for Wang having shoulder issues and certainly not for Joba being a reliever at this point. Players have to take most of the responsibility for the direction of their career.

    ———————————-

    True but the organization is the one that handles these pitches on a daily basis. If they get credit for turning Cano into the player he has become can’t the get blamed for how the young pitchers have turned out.

  18. Erin May 11th, 2011 at 9:25 am

    blake May 11th, 2011 at 9:14 am
    He?s been doing this since he found a way to wiggle out of that bases loaded jam in the 09 playoffs

    ****************************
    His first Houdini act!! ;)

  19. JoeyA May 11th, 2011 at 9:25 am

    Does anybody have a link to the story about advanced metrics for pitchers, in which it highlights Robertson’s delivery being over a foot closer to the plate after delivery.

    I believe this, above all else, contributes to his ‘fireman’ role he has been given.

    The ball “jumps” on hitters and, before you know it, you’re sitting 0-2 or 1-2 and haven’t even seen his curve.

  20. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 9:26 am

    It is amazing how people talk about the NL and bury their heads in the sand in regard to IPK. My boy Freddy The Chief Garcia is junkballing his way to dominance in the AL East. IPK has good stuff and good command. He could be successful anywhere.

    And I loved the Granderson trade. I was pining for him the second his name hit the trade market. But to say Cashman is some infallible grand master of young pitching as WC inferred when it comes to Joba doesn’t hold much weight when he traded the pitcher having the best career so far.

    If he was going to give up on Joba so quickly as q starter he should have traded him in the Grandy deal.

  21. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 9:28 am

    Also, welcome back Betsy!

  22. RadioKev May 11th, 2011 at 9:29 am

    So if Soriano doesn’t pan out, who should get the closer role in a post-Mo world? Robertson or Joba? I’d vote Robertson.

  23. JoeyA May 11th, 2011 at 9:30 am

    IMO re: Organizational handle of pitchers.

    Obviously they should be blamed for “mismanagement” of players i.e. Joba Rules or the ridiculous handling of Hughes’ innings.

    That being said, a pitchers performance is on him. You can’t blame Cash for Wang’s injury. He broke his foot and compensated with his arm when his bottom half wasn’t the same.

    Joba is the reason he isn’t a SP, not Cash. And it goes beyond performance. Joba was very stubborn during that point in his career, constantly repeating the same mistakes he was reprimanded for.

  24. blake May 11th, 2011 at 9:30 am

    Joey,

    I don’t have a link cause Im on my phone but it was a Verducci article on SI.com so you might can find it there……that means the 97 he threw last night looked like about 100.

    Robertson always got late swings…..but he’s throwing harder this year than in the past I believe and with that little cut he has….if he could command better he could really be dominant because his curveball is fantastic as well. If Hughes had Robertson’s curveball then he would be all set.

  25. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 9:30 am

    Levine will probably sign Broxton for 50 million to close.

  26. charlestonchew May 11th, 2011 at 9:33 am

    Robertson has long been my favorite Yankee reliever. The guy has guts and he makes things work with a less than overpowering fastball and a nasty curve. He’s a shorter guy and he just seems more athletic than the rest. Joba really knows how to pump you up with his screaming and fist pumping, but there’s something more appropriate about Robertson when he gets excited about a K or an out.

    Mo, on the other hand, never gets excited. As much as I love him, it is kind of annoying the stoicism he shows out there. Youthful guys seem to be the thing that keeps me interested in this team.

    We’ve got some fantastic young talent on this team, people we brought through the system and raised ourselves. That feels pretty good.

    Hughes, Robertson, Gardner, Nova (Carlyle and Pendleton haven’t shown themselves to be good yet)

    Then we’ve got Swisher, CC, Granderson, Cano, and Teix who walk around with that youthful air about them.

    And then we have the old men… =)

  27. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 9:34 am

    Cashmoney panicked when Joba got hit with that line drive. It was way too early to take Wang off the DL.

  28. blake May 11th, 2011 at 9:34 am

    A betsy sighting ….welcome back.

    There isn’t nearly as big a difference between the NL and AL as folks like to believe.

    I think there is a great chance either Joba or Robertson could take over longterm for Rivera…..that is if Rivera ever stops being awesome and retires (which may not happen ). Joba has true elite stuff when he’s right…..upper 90s velocity with an unhittable slider…..and Robertson is a little better command away from being as good a short reliever as anybody.

  29. Bronx Jeers May 11th, 2011 at 9:35 am

    I recall Pete talking about how Robertson was coming down to work out in Tampa while taking breaks from his honeymoon in Orlando back in early 2009.

    You gotta set that precedent early in the marriage. My hero!

  30. ac1 May 11th, 2011 at 9:36 am

    So if Soriano doesn’t pan out, who should get the closer role in a post-Mo world? Robertson or Joba? I’d vote Robertson.

    ____

    It will be a wait and see, but i hope both Joba and Robertson get a chance at it.

  31. Triple Short of a Cycle May 11th, 2011 at 9:38 am

    JoeyA,

    The Joba Rules (I hate that term) were put into place only because of Joe Torre. If Torre wasn’t there they wouldn’t have those rules. As far as Hughes innings limit which greatly increased from the year before putting him in the danger zone this year what would you have done? Let him throw 100 more innings then he every threw. Each person’s body is different. Not everyone can be the Freak or the King

  32. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 9:38 am

    JoeyA May 11th, 2011 at 9:30 am

    That being said, a pitchers performance is on him. You can’t blame Cash for Wang’s injury. He broke his foot and compensated with his arm when his bottom half wasn’t the same.

    ————————————————-

    Wang breaking his foot is not Cashman’s fault. But the Yankees get blamed for how they handled his rehab. They were the ones that told him not to run. He came into camp with no strength in his legs.

  33. blake May 11th, 2011 at 9:39 am

    Robertson’s cutter really reminds me of Rivera’s…..I don’t know what the pitch fx numbers are on it and how it compares…..Its obviously not as good as Mo’s but it seems to have that unforced natural cut and late movement to it and he throws it really hard as well. He’s just really good and the way he’s being used is actually more valuable than if he we’re the set up guy.

  34. Triple Short of a Cycle May 11th, 2011 at 9:40 am

    blake,

    There isn’t a big difference facing a weak number 8 hitter and a pitcher?

  35. RadioKev May 11th, 2011 at 9:40 am

    “I think there is a great chance either Joba or Robertson could take over longterm for Rivera…..that is if Rivera ever stops being awesome and retires (which may not happen )”

    I honestly think at this point, Mo will pitch for as long as he wants. I don’t see how the Yankees wouldn’t keep signing him if he wants to keep playing. A little fantastical, because at some point he has to slow down, but it hasn’t happened yet..

  36. pat May 11th, 2011 at 9:42 am

    D. Rob’s postgame interviews when he gets through jams are fun to watch because he doesn’t try and play it cool like he had it under control the whole time like some would do.

    His face gives him away that even he’s impressed by what he just pulled off. :smile:

  37. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 9:43 am

    I’m still trying to figure out how exactly Ian Kennedy has had the better career than Phil Hughes (who is younger by nearly 2 years, mind you).

    Does Phil Hughes’ 2009, when he was the best set-up man in baseball on a team that won the World Series, not count? Because the overalls peripherals are pretty comparable, with some league adjustment.

    Phil Hughes has just pitched a ton more at a lesser age and of course has the superior (and very good) ML W-L record (which I know, apparently doesn’t count either).

    So any actual logical insight on how the 26 year old pitcher with no discernable statistical advantage to suggest he’s had the superior career or will go on the have the superior career to the 24 year old pitcher would be greatly appreciated.

  38. Crawdaddy May 11th, 2011 at 9:44 am

    “Wang breaking his foot is not Cashman’s fault. But the Yankees get blamed for how they handled his rehab. They were the ones that told him not to run. He came into camp with no strength in his legs.”

    If they told him to run and he broke his foot again, would you blame the Yankees for that too?

  39. blake May 11th, 2011 at 9:45 am

    “There isn’t a big difference facing a weak number 8 hitter and a pitcher? ”

    For those 2-3 ABs a game there is a difference…..but the rest of the game is similar. There is this perception that the NL is AAAA baseball…..its just not, Japan is but not the NL. These players all come from the same places and they are all big leaguers.

    It is a little tougher to pitch in the AL because of the DH….but arguements like Kennedy couldn’t pitch in the AL or Javy is an NL pitcher don’t hold water IMO.

  40. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 9:46 am

    I’d still love for Mo to break out the change-up one day.

  41. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 9:48 am

    # Crawdaddy May 11th, 2011 at 9:44 am

    “Wang breaking his foot is not Cashman’s fault. But the Yankees get blamed for how they handled his rehab. They were the ones that told him not to run. He came into camp with no strength in his legs.”

    If they told him to run and he broke his foot again, would you blame the Yankees for that too?

    ——————————————–

    The Yankees have all the information. They get paid to make the right decisions. Besides him injuring his foot again wouldn’t be likely because the first time it happened it was a freak accident.

  42. blake May 11th, 2011 at 9:51 am

    Stuckey,

    He is keeping that ace in the hole for when he gets old ;)

  43. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 9:51 am

    Not the perfect measure, but the difference in ERA in the respective leagues, the last 3 years (including so far this year).

    2011

    NL 3.77
    AL 3.90

    2010

    NL 4.02
    AL 4.14

    2009

    NL 4.19
    AL 4.45

    So there is a difference, how much is up for debate.

  44. Crawdaddy May 11th, 2011 at 9:51 am

    “The Yankees have all the information. They get paid to make the right decisions. Besides him injuring his foot again wouldn’t be likely because the first time it happened it was a freak accident”

    How the hell do you know it would unlucky? Like you said, the Yankees had all the information and they followed the advice given to them by their doctors.

  45. charlestonchew May 11th, 2011 at 9:51 am

    stuckey, I think Mo used the changeup in the 2009 playoffs at one point. I remembered him throwing some two-seamers, but there were a few times where the ball came out of his hand and I did a double take, like “what the HELL was that!?!?!?”

  46. Triple Short of a Cycle May 11th, 2011 at 9:52 am

    blake,

    It is changing now but for years the talent level in the AL was better since you had more higher market teams that brought in free agents.

    I think Javy had one average or decent year with the White Sox but other than that he has been far better in the NL. WHo knows what would have happened if Kennedy would have stayed on the Yankees but facing the 8th hitter and the pitcher coupled with the fact he gets to pitch at Dodger stadium, in San Diego and in San Fran are certainly helping his numbers

  47. Triple Short of a Cycle May 11th, 2011 at 9:53 am

    stuckey99,

    I always thought it used to be a half a run but the gap has closed in recent years somewhat since better players are staying or migrating to the NL

  48. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 9:53 am

    “I’d still love for Mo to break out the change-up one day.”

    After he breaks the all-time saves record, Mo has an open invitation from me to start his season on the last day to qualify for the postseason roster for as long as he likes.

  49. YsGuy May 11th, 2011 at 9:56 am

    it looks like betsy’s not ‘back’ she just divebombed in when she saw someone mention hughes, dropped a bomb and took off. she has become another johnny-one-note

  50. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 9:56 am

    Triple, I suspect the influx of new offense-friendlier NL stadiums (ex. Philly, Cincinnati) the last decade has likely lessened the difference.

  51. blake May 11th, 2011 at 9:58 am

    Triple,

    There is a difference (as Stuckey illustrates)…but the “NL pitcher” is a myth IMO. Javy was good for the White Sox…..not great but solid, pitching 200 innins every year and striking out a lot of guys. He was bad with the Yankees last year because he lost his stuff….it fell off a cliff, not because of the league.

  52. Triple Short of a Cycle May 11th, 2011 at 10:06 am

    Javy

    NL
    2001 3.42
    2002 3.91
    2003 3.24
    2005 4.42
    2009 2.87

    AL
    2004 4.91
    2006 4.84
    2007 3.74
    2008 4.67
    2010 5.32

    seems to be a pretty big difference outside of 2007

  53. Tom in N.J. May 11th, 2011 at 10:08 am

    “He was bad with the Yankees last year because he lost his stuff….it fell off a cliff, not because of the league.”

    Look at Barry Zito, he’s fallen off a cliff since he joined the NL West.

  54. blake May 11th, 2011 at 10:09 am

    You’re choosing one pitcher and cherry picking years. That is evidence of nothing really……

  55. blake May 11th, 2011 at 10:10 am

    Cliff Lee was.better for the Mariners last year than for the Phillies this year……myth busted :)

  56. BoJo May 11th, 2011 at 10:10 am

    Welcome back Bets! Missed you!

  57. Shame Spencer May 11th, 2011 at 10:11 am

    Triple – I’m not sure using one mediocre pitcher proves anything about the differences in the level of competition between the leagues.

  58. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 10:11 am

    # Crawdaddy May 11th, 2011 at 9:51 am

    “The Yankees have all the information. They get paid to make the right decisions. Besides him injuring his foot again wouldn’t be likely because the first time it happened it was a freak accident”

    How the hell do you know it would unlucky? Like you said, the Yankees had all the information and they followed the advice given to them by their doctors.

    —————————–

    And it was the wrong advice

  59. West Coast Yankee Fan May 11th, 2011 at 10:13 am

    It’s only the wrong advice when one looks at it after the fact.

  60. Triple Short of a Cycle May 11th, 2011 at 10:15 am

    Shame Spencer,

    He was not a mediocre pitcher in the NL.

    Roy Halladay

    AL
    2008 2.78
    2009 2.79

    NL
    2010 2.44

  61. YsGuy May 11th, 2011 at 10:15 am

    i think everybody here is smart enough to know that pulling out one or three or five pitchers who did better in one league or the other does not prove or disprove a theory about the differences between leagues. there has been alot of study on the subject and alot of empirical evidence either way is available to bolster either side of the argument, but saying joe schmoe did better on the mariners than the astros adds nothing to any debate.

  62. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 10:15 am

    # YsGuy May 11th, 2011 at 7:56 am

    as i’ve said before, for any team trying to develop 3 hot pitching prospects, to have 1 be a mid rotation starter on thier team, one an mlb starter traded to another organization and one end up being a premium relief pitcher is a very good outcome.

    ———————————————————-

    They don’t get a pat on the back for Ian Kennedy

  63. BoJo May 11th, 2011 at 10:15 am

    I still have a vague hope that the pitcher who takes over for Mo will be Aubrey Sanit in AAA. “The Sanitizer” is too good to pass up.

  64. Triple Short of a Cycle May 11th, 2011 at 10:16 am

    blake,

    So we are using a months woroth of data to compare him to his stint with the M’s?

  65. Triple Short of a Cycle May 11th, 2011 at 10:16 am

    blake,

    How am I cherry picking years when I gave every year from 2001 to 2010?

  66. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 10:17 am

    The idea that any of us (fans) have enough relevant information and data to determine how a particular pitcher should or should not have been handled is frankly outright silly.

    I suspect it’s still much more art and luck than science for the teams that actually have physical access to a player along with teams of doctors and trainers, much less for yahoos such as ourselves.

    This is one area of the game where the smart fans just acknowledges he or she doesn’t know s**t.

    I know I don’t.

  67. YsGuy May 11th, 2011 at 10:18 am

    i think kennedy is the new ted lilly. a guy who doesnt have eye-popping stuff but somehow manages to get the job done and pitch very close to his ceiling for a long time. i have a feeling that kennedy will still be kicking around the majors in 10 years and make a nice nest egg for his family out of his career. he just always seems to get the job done.

  68. YsGuy May 11th, 2011 at 10:21 am

    stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 10:17 am
    The idea that any of us (fans) have enough relevant information and data to determine how a particular pitcher should or should not have been handled is frankly outright silly.

    I suspect it’s still much more art and luck than science for the teams that actually have physical access to a player along with teams of doctors and trainers, much less for yahoos such as ourselves.

    This is one area of the game where the smart fans just acknowledges he or she doesn’t know s**t.

    I know I don’t.
    =============================================

    *DING * DING * DING * DING!!!!!

    post of the morning right there!

  69. BoJo May 11th, 2011 at 10:22 am

    stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 10:17 am

    This is one area of the game where the smart fans just acknowledges he or she doesn’t know s**t.
    __________________
    You could pretty much apply that to any discussion topic that has been on this blog, and yet, people wish to discuss it ad nauseum.

    I won’t get started on this again. You all know where I stand. Time will tell.

  70. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 10:23 am

    # West Coast Yankee Fan May 11th, 2011 at 10:13 am

    It’s only the wrong advice when one looks at it after the fact.

    ——————————————–

    It doesn’t take away from it being bad advice.

  71. Shame Spencer May 11th, 2011 at 10:24 am

    Triple Short of a Cycle May 11th, 2011 at 10:15 am

    Shame Spencer,

    He was not a mediocre pitcher in the NL.

    ———————

    But he is now, isn’t he?

    I’m just not convinced anyone is proving anything about the leagues right now other than in one you face 8 talented hitters and in another you face (theoretically) 9. Which isn’t new information.

  72. Wave Your Hat May 11th, 2011 at 10:25 am

    The last I checked pitchers hit in the NL but not in the AL so before you go comparing NL and AL ERAs you might want to think about that.

  73. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 10:27 am

    “You could pretty much apply that to any discussion topic that has been on this blog, and yet, people wish to discuss it ad nauseum.”

    Nah… I think a fan can have a substantive conversation about the value of a sacrifice bunt, where a player would best produce in the line-up, or what potential free agent would be the best fit, etc…

    Arguing in hindsight about whether or not a pitcher would have stayed healthy or not, or would have “developed” or not is just too inexact a science.

  74. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 10:27 am

    So any actual logical insight on how the 26 year old pitcher with no discernable statistical advantage to suggest he’s had the superior career or will go on the have the superior career to the 24 year old pitcher would be greatly appreciated.

    ——-

    He had a better year than Hughes last year and is pitching awesome this year while Hughes disintegrates on the DL. Better career ERA also despite Hughes having the luxury of spending a season in the BP to inflate his numbers.

  75. Triple Short of a Cycle May 11th, 2011 at 10:29 am

    Shame Spencer,

    The numbers prove it. If there wasn’t a difference in the leagues then the ERA’s would be very similar.Also number 8 hitters in the NL are much worse then number 8 hitters in the AL.

    Look at what CC did in the brief amount of time he was in the NL

  76. YsGuy May 11th, 2011 at 10:30 am

    teams are totally fishing around for some ‘unified theory of pitcher development’ and reallyl have very little idea of what is going to work and what doesn’t.

  77. Triple Short of a Cycle May 11th, 2011 at 10:31 am

    Wave Your Hat,

    I don’t understand your point? The pitcher hitting is a big reason why ERA’s are different

  78. Triple Short of a Cycle May 11th, 2011 at 10:31 am

    YsGuy,

    Tell that to Nolan Ryan lol

    Still waiting for Texas to implement the 4 man rotation

  79. BoJo May 11th, 2011 at 10:33 am

    stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 10:27 am
    “You could pretty much apply that to any discussion topic that has been on this blog, and yet, people wish to discuss it ad nauseum.”

    Nah… I think a fan can have a substantive conversation about the value of a sacrifice bunt, where a player would best produce in the line-up, or what potential free agent would be the best fit, etc…

    Arguing in hindsight about whether or not a pitcher would have stayed healthy or not, or would have “developed” or not is just too inexact a science.
    ______________
    Hindsight isn’t needed for the Joba argument.

    He has outstanding stuff once again–after bulking up and rediscovering his old mechanics.

    He is hiting 87=98 on his fastball, and more importantnly has rediscovered his electric slider.

    He also has a very good curve and change. 4 great pitches and good control.

    He may have as good as stuff as anyone in the league other than Felix.

    Many other relievers convert to SP and do well after they find their mechanics…Santana, Liriano, Wilson, etc. No reason Joba can’t do same.

    The only question remaining is endurance, and I think he deserves the opportunity to find out.

  80. BoJo May 11th, 2011 at 10:34 am

    ***97-98***

  81. Niblick May 11th, 2011 at 10:34 am

    IPK has a career ERA+ of 103; Phil Hughes – 99. Not too much difference there.

  82. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 10:37 am

    IPK has a career ERA+ of 103; Phil Hughes –99. Not too much difference there.

    ——-

    Hughes’ numbers are inflated by his relief stint. Kennedy has been significantly better as a starter.

  83. Shame Spencer May 11th, 2011 at 10:37 am

    Triple – Maybe it just depends on what you consider “very similar.” Usually, a .35ish difference (like in you Halladay example), isn’t regarded as a statistically significant difference.

  84. Shame Spencer May 11th, 2011 at 10:38 am

    And re this: “Look at what CC did in the brief amount of time he was in the NL”

    All I remember CC doing in the NL was hit :P I wish he got more ABs for us…

  85. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 10:38 am

    BoJo May 11th, 2011 at 10:33 am

    The only question remaining is endurance, and I think he deserves the opportunity to find out.

    ———————————————————

    Unfortunately he won’t get the opportunity.

  86. BoJo May 11th, 2011 at 10:39 am

    IPK is a nice pitcher–big deal. Would I still make the trade for Grandy knowing what we know now about him? Yep.

  87. BoJo May 11th, 2011 at 10:40 am

    Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 10:38 am
    BoJo May 11th, 2011 at 10:33 am

    The only question remaining is endurance, and I think he deserves the opportunity to find out.

    ———————————————————

    Unfortunately he won’t get the opportunity.
    _______________
    Ultimately is a long time. Ultimately–if he wants iut–he will…perhaps with another club.

  88. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 10:41 am

    “He had a better year than Hughes last year and is pitching awesome this year while Hughes disintegrates on the DL. Better career ERA also despite Hughes having the luxury of spending a season in the BP to inflate his numbers.”

    I think you mean deflate, and disqualifying 2009 is a laughable example of selective omission. He pitched those innings, effectively. They count. Given what we know for fact about bullpen volatility and ineffectiveness, your seeming suggestion that his 2009 was some sort of unfair advantage is odd.

    And doesn’t the fact Kennedy pitched 40 highly ineffective innings over 2 years when he was the same age Hughes count?

    This is a time when a broad perspective is required, if you intend to both evaluate their careers and potential careers rather than just laser-focus on the last 11 months.

    But don’t worry, i understand, you just need a time-killer until Derek Jeter goes 0-4 again.

    Far me it for me to deny you that.

  89. BoJo May 11th, 2011 at 10:41 am

    My bad—not wearing glasses and misread unfortunately as ultimately (bet my reply makes more sense now, eh?)

  90. beth May 11th, 2011 at 10:44 am

    ian kennedy was a minor loss

  91. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 10:45 am

    Bojo, I’m not talking about a debate about whether Joba Chamberlain should be a starter or reliever for here on out.

    I’m talking about the argument that if handled differently, Chamberlain would have been more or less effective in 2009 and 2010.

    The former is relevant, the latter is just pure guesswork likely highly influenced by your overall opinion of the Yankees organization.

  92. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 10:46 am

    # BoJo May 11th, 2011 at 10:40 am

    Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 10:38 am
    BoJo May 11th, 2011 at 10:33 am

    The only question remaining is endurance, and I think he deserves the opportunity to find out.

    ———————————————————

    Unfortunately he won’t get the opportunity.
    _______________
    Ultimately is a long time. Ultimately–if he wants iut–he will…perhaps with another club.

    ———————————————————–

    Oh yea he can definitely get a shot with another club but he’ll never start for the Yankees again.

  93. BoJo May 11th, 2011 at 10:49 am

    stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 10:45 am
    Bojo, I’m not talking about a debate about whether Joba Chamberlain should be a starter or reliever for here on out.

    I’m talking about the argument that if handled differently, Chamberlain would have been more or less effective in 2009 and 2010.

    The former is relevant, the latter is just pure guesswork likely highly influenced by your overall opinion of the Yankees organization.
    __________
    Then we agree again. It is a waste of time to speculate on what can’t be changed.

  94. Vineyard Yankee May 11th, 2011 at 10:50 am

    I wonder what the conversation would be like if Grandy hadn’t figured out his swing with K.Long last year. It probably would be an interesting conversation about Grandy and Kennedy. The NL is probably the best place for Kennedy.

  95. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 10:51 am

    “I think you mean deflate, and disqualifying 2009 is a laughable example of selective omission. He pitched those innings, effectively. They count. Given what we know for fact about bullpen volatility and ineffectiveness, your seeming suggestion that his 2009 was some sort of unfair advantage is odd.

    And doesn’t the fact Kennedy pitched 40 highly ineffective innings over 2 years when he was the same age Hughes count?

    This is a time when a broad perspective is required, if you intend to both evaluate their careers and potential careers rather than just laser-focus on the last 11 months.”

    Kennedy has been better even with Hughes’ bullpen stint! I really don’t care at what age each did what. I am not talking about their future or their potential. Hughes has more potential and a higher ceiling than IPK.

    Evaluating their careers to date, IPK has simply been better than Hughes. It is basically a fact. I am not laser focusing on the last 11 months. Hughes has spent the majority of his career on the DL. This is just about evaluating their entire body of work in MLB and Kennedy’s is superior.

    Relievers are volatile because they are crappy pitchers. You put a good starter in the bullpen and he isn’t volatile. Look at Joakim Soria. The guy should be a starter, but he is in the bullpen and is money every year. Relievers are not volatile because of some ticking time bomb out in the bullpen.

    Relievers are volatile they are just not good.

    “But don’t worry, i understand, you just need a time-killer until Derek Jeter goes 0-4 again.

    Far me it for me to deny you that.”

    Pathetic.

  96. Erin May 11th, 2011 at 10:51 am

    Kim Jones blog entry from yesterday:

    http://www.yeskimjones.com/

    Great stuff on the developing AJ/Nova bromance, and cute story about little Karter Chamberlain. :)

  97. BoJo May 11th, 2011 at 10:52 am

    BTW–for those of you who long for having IPK back on this pitching staff, we already have one like him in Freddy Garcia.

    Long term, both Freddy and IPK will be/would have been displaced by the next wave of talent.

  98. West Coast Yankee Fan May 11th, 2011 at 10:56 am

    Clearly Cashman was right about Joba, as was the entire Yankee organization, and the fans on here and elsewhere that thought Joba was best suited to the pen. The results are proving that to be true and that is a fact.

    Joba does not have what it takes to be a starter, he can’t go deep into games, he can’t sustain velocity, etc. He is best at emptying the tank in short bursts.

    Mariano was a starter too – there were probably fans then that wanted him to remain one. No need to say anything further about that.

    Case closed.

  99. Vineyard Yankee May 11th, 2011 at 10:56 am

    I believe that the only way Joba will ever get another opportunity to be a SP is with another team. He had his chance in N.Y. and it fizzled out.

    With all the pitching depth presently in the minor leagues those top prospects will get their shot first. The Joba SP ship has sailed, he is a middle reliever and can help the team in that role.

  100. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 10:59 am

    “Clearly Cashman was right about Joba, as was the entire Yankee organization, and the fans on here and elsewhere that thought Joba was best suited to the pen. The results are proving that to be true and that is a fact.”

    —————–

    What results?

  101. West Coast Yankee Fan May 11th, 2011 at 11:00 am

    The Nielsen results LGY – and the American Idol voting.

  102. DocTodd May 11th, 2011 at 11:00 am

    Never heard of this….Jays had 2 different pitchers charged with a blown save in last night’s game, and still won….pretty cool….

  103. Vineyard Yankee May 11th, 2011 at 11:02 am

    West Coast Yankee Fan May 11th, 2011 at 11:00 am

    POW ! ! LOL ! ! !

  104. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 11:02 am

    The Nielsen results LGY – and the American Idol voting.

    ————-

    Seriously.

    What results prove that?

  105. G. Love May 11th, 2011 at 11:03 am

    I don’t blame anyone for Phil Hughes’ issues other than Phil Hughes. And when I say blame I don’t mean to indicate he did this on purpose and wanted to screw the Yankees.

    That said, the fact that they found nothing wrong with him has me seriously questioning Phil Hughes as a major league player we can rely on.

    I hate that he lied to the team about having nothing wrong and then all of a sudden he has shoulder tightness that required a cortisone shot he could have gotten in spring training.

    Brian Cashman didn’t do that to him. All Cashman has done is hand him rotation spots every spring expecting him to progress and he hasn’t.

    The all star appearance really messes with a lot of you because you can call on that like Hughes was set in stone as a top flight player.

    The fact is he had a great 1/2 season as a starter. A great 1/2 season as a reliever. In both of those seasons he physically fell apart later on. In 2009 he couldn’t get anyone out by the time the post season came along. In 2010 he struggled mightily the 2nd half of the year.

    I’m still waiting for him to put the whole thing together, but the health issues and the way he tries to tough them out to the detriment of winning when doesn’t impress me.

    And I’ll be shocked if he comes back and is an effective starter again unless part of the rebuild Phil Hughes project is to work on his pitches. What we saw early this season is without good velocity he’s a batting practice pitcher and has nothing else to rely on. Hopefully, in the time it takes him to come back he figures out some other pitches to rely on. Blake had a great point the other day in here where he said Hughes should try to develop a splitter.

    If all he’s going to do is throw fastballs, he might belong in the pen.

  106. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 11:03 am

    # West Coast Yankee Fan May 11th, 2011 at 10:56 am

    Clearly Cashman was right about Joba, as was the entire Yankee organization, and the fans on here and elsewhere that thought Joba was best suited to the pen. The results are proving that to be true and that is a fact.

    Joba does not have what it takes to be a starter, he can’t go deep into games, he can’t sustain velocity, etc. He is best at emptying the tank in short bursts.

    Mariano was a starter too – there were probably fans then that wanted him to remain one. No need to say anything further about that.

    Case closed.

    ——————————————-

    After one yr the case is closed????? So if the B’s perform like Joba did in one yr should the Yankees determine they are better suited for the pen.

    The only thing that is being proven with Joba is the farther away he is from his shoulder injury the better he has performed.

  107. Tom in N.J. May 11th, 2011 at 11:06 am

    Non-pitchers are hitting .256BA/ .327OBP/ .395SLG/ .723OPS against National Leauge pitchers.

    American League hitters are hitting .250/BA .320OBP/ .392SLG/.712OPS vs AL pitching.

    The 2-3 plate apperences a game that the pitcher hits .135/ .161/ .170/ .331 do seem to help NL pichers as a group.

  108. YsGuy May 11th, 2011 at 11:06 am

    k long on wfan now

  109. Vineyard Yankee May 11th, 2011 at 11:08 am

    Joba just might be the best 7th inning RP in MLB. He is a pleasure to watch when he empties the tank, has good control.

  110. West Coast Yankee Fan May 11th, 2011 at 11:08 am

    Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 11:03 am

    After one yr the case is closed????? So if the B’s perform like Joba did in one yr should the Yankees determine they are better suited for the pen. The only thing that is being proven with Joba is the farther away he is from his shoulder injury the better he has performed.

    ***************

    Every pitcher is an individual AAO and should be evaluated as such. The B’s have nothing to do with Joba. There was no “company policy”. The determination that Joba was better suited to relieve, was made by some of the best baseball professionals that exist — after seeing and working with him for an extended period of time. I am sure there are factors that went into their thinking we don’t know, perhaps physiological, maybe mental makeup, etc.

  111. austinmac May 11th, 2011 at 11:09 am

    Joba is and will be in the pen. It doesn’t matter what anyone speculates as to how he would have been a starter. We will never know.

    I expect we will be very glad he is in the pen if Soriano has significant elbow problems. If that is the case, the pen is a leftie and a righty short. Brackman is not the answer as he is not pitching well in AAA. Whelan is. Is he a possible call-up if Soriano is indeed hurt or would they go with Ayala?

  112. Vineyard Yankee May 11th, 2011 at 11:09 am

    Thanks for the heads up YsGuy.

  113. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 11:10 am

    “Kennedy has been better even with Hughes’ bullpen stint!”

    Wasn’t Bret arguing yesterday what the Yankees .avg would be if you took away their homeruns?

    Filtering Hughes’ 2009 out is of the same ilk.

    “Evaluating their careers to date, IPK has simply been better than Hughes. It is basically a fact.”

    Okay, prove it.

    Display his superiority.

    “Look at Joakim Soria.”

    Just saw him. He and his 3.95 ERA say hello.

    “Pathetic.”

    Indeed, sir. Indeed…

  114. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 11:11 am

    All Cashman has done is hand him rotation spots every spring expecting him to progress and he hasn’t.

    ———————————-

    you think he was handed rotation spots?

  115. Vineyard Yankee May 11th, 2011 at 11:11 am

    LOL ! K. Long doing a promo on his book. Now the big Posada question.

  116. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 11:14 am

    # West Coast Yankee Fan May 11th, 2011 at 11:08 am

    Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 11:03 am

    After one yr the case is closed????? So if the B’s perform like Joba did in one yr should the Yankees determine they are better suited for the pen. The only thing that is being proven with Joba is the farther away he is from his shoulder injury the better he has performed.

    ***************

    Every pitcher is an individual AAO and should be evaluated as such. The B’s have nothing to do with Joba. There was no “company policy”. The determination that Joba was better suited to relieve, was made by some of the best baseball professionals that exist — after seeing and working with him for an extended period of time. I am sure there are factors that went into their thinking we don’t know, perhaps physiological, maybe mental makeup, etc.

    ———————————————–

    I understand the ppl around him have more information at their disposal than we do. My point is 1 yr of starting was too soon to pull the plug on his career as a starter. The struggles he had with going deep in games and pitch selection is something many young starters deal with.

  117. G. Love May 11th, 2011 at 11:15 am

    Odds,

    I think Hughes was handed a rotation spot in 2008. Kennedy also. The fact that Cashman chose to bring in no other options that off season cements that feeling.

    In 2010 I think Hughes was definitely handed a rotation spot over Joba. There was a fake competition for a spot that apparently Eiland/Girardi/front office were steering towards Hughes.

  118. Triple Short of a Cycle May 11th, 2011 at 11:16 am

    Question to anyone who uses twitter.

    I have tried to reply to certain people’s tweets but whenever I do it doesn’t show up on their twitter page. I am only able to view my tweets on my own page

  119. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 11:18 am

    # G. Love May 11th, 2011 at 11:15 am

    Odds,

    I think Hughes was handed a rotation spot in 2008. Kennedy also. The fact that Cashman chose to bring in no other options that off season cements that feeling.

    In 2010 I think Hughes was definitely handed a rotation spot over Joba. There was a fake competition for a spot that apparently Eiland/Girardi/front office were steering towards Hughes.

    ———————————————————

    I see where you’re coming from G Love. Thanks for clearing that up.

  120. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 11:19 am

    Wasn’t Bret arguing yesterday what the Yankees .avg would be if you took away their homeruns? Filtering Hughes’ 2009 out is of the same ilk.

    —-

    Not even close. It would be the opposite. HR are,the best hits. It would be like filtering out starting which is the best and most valuable.

    Pitching in the bullpen is WAY easier way less valuable than starting.

  121. West Coast Yankee Fan May 11th, 2011 at 11:20 am

    Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 11:14 am

    I understand the ppl around him have more information at their disposal than we do. My point is 1 yr of starting was too soon to pull the plug on his career as a starter. The struggles he had with going deep in games and pitch selection is something many young starters deal with.

    ************************

    I believe that Cashman and the development people around him know that. They would have liked nothing better than for Joba to develop into a good starter. They made the determination that wouldn’t be in the Yankee’s best interest. They are sticking with Hughes so far – every pitcher is different.

  122. blake May 11th, 2011 at 11:21 am

    Triple,

    The point is that NL pitchers should have a slightly better cumulative Era because they face pitchers…..and the numbers indicate that they do. That doesn’t mean however that a guy that has pitched in the NL can’t pitch in the AL………if you can pitch, then you can pitch in either league.

  123. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 11:22 am

    # West Coast Yankee Fan May 11th, 2011 at 11:20 am

    Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 11:14 am

    I understand the ppl around him have more information at their disposal than we do. My point is 1 yr of starting was too soon to pull the plug on his career as a starter. The struggles he had with going deep in games and pitch selection is something many young starters deal with.

    ************************

    I believe that Cashman and the development people around him know that. They would have liked nothing better than for Joba to develop into a good starter. They made the determination that wouldn’t be in the Yankee’s best interest. They are sticking with Hughes so far – every pitcher is different.

    ——————————————–

    True every pitcher is different but how can anyone side step the thing that Hughes has been through since being in the Yankee organization.

  124. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 11:23 am

    Stuckey

    Prove what?

    The numbers and health difference speak for themselves.

  125. blake May 11th, 2011 at 11:25 am

    Danks is now 0-6 and the White Sox are 12 games out in the loss column…..Cashman hopefully has already called Kenny Williams to see if he can buy low on him.

  126. Triple Short of a Cycle May 11th, 2011 at 11:26 am

    blake,

    In theory that should be true but pitchers are creatures of habit so it might be harder than you think to go full effort all the time facing 9 hitters as opposed to going half effort facing 7 hitters in the NL. 8th place hitters are pretty bad in the NL as well. Not all pitchers can make that adustment after pitching their entire career in the NL

  127. G. Love May 11th, 2011 at 11:28 am

    The problem with Joba is when he has a dominant inning like last night it makes a lot of us wish he were a starter.

    I think what we may have to come to terms with is he wouldn’t have that stuff he had for an inning last night over the course of a 6-7 inning start. In 2009 he rarely looked that good as a starter. That said, I do think they pulled the plug a lot quicker on him than they did on Hughes.

    I still would have went back to Joba as a rotation option this spring, especially with Soriano in the fold, but I think the Yankees believe is this is the best way to utilize this guy. He’s a weapon when he’s on that helps end games early.

    I just can’t decide if the Yankees are grooming Joba or Robertsen as Mo’s replacement down the line.

    I’m starting to wonder if it’s Robertsen since they throw him into the frying pan more than any other pitcher I’ve seen. If his arm holds up, his experience getting out of jams is invaluable long term.

  128. Vineyard Yankee May 11th, 2011 at 11:28 am

    Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 11:22 am

    True every pitcher is different but how can anyone side step the thing that Hughes has been through since being in the Yankee organization.

    ===================

    That he has been snake bit with these different injuries ?

  129. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 11:29 am

    “I think Hughes was handed a rotation spot in 2008. Kennedy also. The fact that Cashman chose to bring in no other options that off season cements that feeling.”

    Options = money.

    Do fans realistically expect the Yankees to have 6 to 8 VIABLE ML starters in camp every spring?

    No team can manage that.

    I don’t have any argument against Hughes being “handed” a rotation spot, I take exception to this being described as a negative thing.

    “In 2010 I think Hughes was definitely handed a rotation spot over Joba. There was a fake competition for a spot that apparently Eiland/Girardi/front office were steering towards Hughes.”

    “Fake competition” is a “fake” argument.

    Like Nova and Garcia this spring, penciling in guys to rotation spots to lose (implying they could indeed lose them to someone else), is indeed a “competition”. That they didn’t START on an even basis does not disqualify it as a “competition” nor does the fact that more factors were weighed other than just the limited game results.

    I thought his ridiculous argument was finally put to rest.

    But if not, let’s take that opportunity now.

    G. Love, a group of pitchers start spring training all with a chance to earn a rotation spot. Some of that group start ahead of others and have to hold their advantage through ST, through factors including by not limited to game results.

    So what do you want to call that if not “competition”.

    Kudos in advance to you for being the first person to step up with a legitmate answer to a fair question.

  130. Erin May 11th, 2011 at 11:32 am

    Triple Short of a Cycle May 11th, 2011 at 11:16 am
    Question to anyone who uses twitter.

    I have tried to reply to certain people?s tweets but whenever I do it doesn?t show up on their twitter page. I am only able to view my tweets on my own page

    ************************
    Triple-I was confused by that when I first started too. If they don’t follow you, that’s probably why it didn’t show up on their homepage-I believe it goes straight to their “@mentions” tab. Hope that helps!

  131. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 11:32 am

    So what do you want to call that if not “competition”.

    ——

    Insurance policy.

    Hughes was getting the job unless he got hurt.

  132. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 11:33 am

    # Vineyard Yankee May 11th, 2011 at 11:28 am

    Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 11:22 am

    True every pitcher is different but how can anyone side step the thing that Hughes has been through since being in the Yankee organization.

    ===================

    That he has been snake bit with these different injuries ?

    —————————————————

    Different injuries, ineffective performance in certain yrs, secondary pitches taking a step back, etc.

  133. West Coast Yankee Fan May 11th, 2011 at 11:35 am

    “I think what we may have to come to terms with is he wouldn’t have that stuff he had for an inning last night over the course of a 6-7 inning start.”

    B I N G O !

  134. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 11:36 am

    Lol. I just saw stuckey’s comment on Soria.

    Yeah 14 innings of sub 4 era ball means he is volatile.

  135. DocTodd May 11th, 2011 at 11:37 am

    K Long defending Posada is a tough job…..

  136. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 11:38 am

    Do you guys know how many young starters are called 5 inning pitchers after their first year in the rotation.

    You can’t make that conclusion based on one season. Especially when Joba was not a good reliever last year.
    Joba is all about how he is throwing the ball. Not his role. It was never his role.

  137. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 11:41 am

    LGY May 11th, 2011 at 11:38 am

    Do you guys know how many young starters are called 5 inning pitchers after their first year in the rotation.

    ——————————————

    We have one on our team right now in Nova. There were fans that felt he was better suited to be in the bullpen lol

  138. Triple Short of a Cycle May 11th, 2011 at 11:42 am

    Erin,

    Thanks. I don’t see a mentions tab though

  139. Triple Short of a Cycle May 11th, 2011 at 11:42 am

    LGY,

    Exactly. Lester was called a 5 inning guy when he first started as well

  140. Erin May 11th, 2011 at 11:44 am

    Triple Short of a Cycle May 11th, 2011 at 11:42 am
    Erin,

    Thanks. I don?t see a mentions tab though

    *********************
    You won’t see it on somebody else’s page-only yours.

  141. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 11:44 am

    Soria gave up 4 runs in one outing this season.

    One really bad appearances makes him volatile :roll:

  142. blake May 11th, 2011 at 11:44 am

    Triple,

    Guys face DHs in high school, college, and the minors….I don’t think that makes any difference to most pitchers.

  143. Vineyard Yankee May 11th, 2011 at 11:45 am

    ‘Different injuries, ineffective performance in certain yrs, secondary pitches taking a step back, etc’.

    ============

    Your right. The hamstring in Texas was severe, the loss of velocity, curve ball disappearing, the dead arm which they have yet to find the exact cause of etc. etc.

  144. Wave Your Hat May 11th, 2011 at 11:47 am

    The DH rule adds about 5-6% to total league runs. So you have to deflate AL pitchers ERA or inflate NL pitchers ERA by about that amount to compare them, even before worrying about park effects etc.

  145. Vineyard Yankee May 11th, 2011 at 11:47 am

    Erin May 11th, 2011 at 11:44 am

    Sounds like a friggin jigsaw puzzle. All the more reason for me to rely on you and not set one up myself. :-)

  146. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 11:48 am

    # Vineyard Yankee May 11th, 2011 at 11:45 am

    ‘Different injuries, ineffective performance in certain yrs, secondary pitches taking a step back, etc’.

    ============

    Your right. The hamstring in Texas was severe, the loss of velocity, curve ball disappearing, the dead arm which they have yet to find the exact cause of etc. etc.

    ———————————–

    It’s crazy when you think of the ups and downs he has been through. Hopefully this dead arm issue is a bump in the road as someone mentioned earlier.

  147. blake May 11th, 2011 at 11:49 am

    Any way you slice it…..spending a year protecting a starting pitcher’s innings and then pulling the plug on that after 1 full season makes very little sense on the surface. I think there must be something else contributing to the decision they’ve made with Joba.

    His stuff was down in the pen last year as well…..for the same mechanical reasons it was as a starter. Every pitcher’s stuff plays up as a reliever ….

  148. Vineyard Yankee May 11th, 2011 at 11:50 am

    Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 11:48 am

    I am really beginning to wonder if he is injury prone. The hamstring took forever and this dead arm thing with no solution ? Very strange.

  149. blake May 11th, 2011 at 11:52 am

    Now that Jeter is hitting……the blog has returned to default (Joba and Hughes discussion).

  150. Triple Short of a Cycle May 11th, 2011 at 11:54 am

    Erin,

    Ahh ok. Thanks

  151. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 11:55 am

    Now that Jeter is hitting……the blog has returned to default (Joba and Hughes discussion).

    —-

    Talk about Po?

    RAB has a good article today on when the Yanks should consider pulling the plug on Jorge and going to Montero.

  152. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 11:55 am

    “He had a better year than Hughes last year and is pitching awesome this year while Hughes disintegrates on the DL.”

    “Yeah 14 innings of sub 4 era ball means he is volatile.”

    So Ian Kennedy and Phil Hughes’ 2011′s count by Soria’s doesn’t?

    Convenient.

  153. J. Alfred Prufrock May 11th, 2011 at 11:56 am

    he only thing that is being proven with Joba is the farther away he is from his shoulder injury the better he has performed.
    ///

    Odds, that’s the truth. This is why I can see a return to the rotation for him in the future. Rothschild seems to be the PC to help Joba get back to what he looked like in 2008, which would be a very effective major league starter: good velo and sound mechanics, which are co-dependent. We already know he’s got the arsenal for starting success.

    The “argument” you’re responding to is a very fragile one full of phony conclusions & wreaking of confirmation bias.

    But you’ve whittled past & gotten straight to the point: if absent velocity & non-repeatable mechanics were at the heart of the decision to move Chamberlain to the bullpen, wouldn’t the return of that velocity & an ability to repeat remove the obstacles that stand in the way of a reconversion to Chamberlain as starter?

  154. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 11:56 am

    # Vineyard Yankee May 11th, 2011 at 11:50 am

    Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 11:48 am

    I am really beginning to wonder if he is injury prone. The hamstring took forever and this dead arm thing with no solution ? Very strange.

    —————————————-

    He may be injury prone. I think he has been injured 5-6 times since being drafted by the Yankees. Now fans many state only one of those injuries had to do with his arm and that’s true but those are still injuries that he sustained.

  155. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 11:58 am

    “Talk about Po?”

    Yes, because naturally the only think to talk about is pick the player struggling the most and beat the topic like a dead horse…

    Illuminating.

  156. Erin May 11th, 2011 at 11:58 am

    Vineyard Yankee May 11th, 2011 at 11:47 am
    Erin May 11th, 2011 at 11:44 am

    Sounds like a friggin jigsaw puzzle. All the more reason for me to rely on you and not set one up myself.

    **************************

    LOL I didn’t have an account for a long time, but I finally went ahead and got one. It’s kind of addicting. ;)

  157. blake May 11th, 2011 at 11:58 am

    LGY,

    What do you think about that. I love Posada….he’s a HOFer IMO and an all time Yankee great…..but I am starting to wonder how much rope they will give him considering that in his case they do have multiple options to replace him. Im hoping he starts to hit….but if he doesn’t pick it up soon I think Montero will be up by mid June.

  158. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 11:59 am

    So Ian Kennedy and Phil Hughes’ 2011?s count by Soria’s doesn’t? Convenient

    ——

    Why are you so bad at drawing connections?

    Soria has pitched one really bad inning all season. That is not remotely comparable to Hughes/Kennedy.

  159. BoJo May 11th, 2011 at 12:00 pm

    blake May 11th, 2011 at 11:52 am
    Now that Jeter is hitting……the blog has returned to default (Joba and Hughes discussion).
    ____________
    We could talk about…Buddy Carlylse–MYTH or LEGEND?

  160. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 12:01 pm

    # J. Alfred Prufrock May 11th, 2011 at 11:56 am

    he only thing that is being proven with Joba is the farther away he is from his shoulder injury the better he has performed.
    ///

    Odds, that’s the truth. This is why I can see a return to the rotation for him in the future. Rothschild seems to be the PC to help Joba get back to what he looked like in 2008, which would be a very effective major league starter: good velo and sound mechanics, which are co-dependent. We already know he’s got the arsenal for starting success.

    The “argument” you’re responding to is a very fragile one full of phony conclusions & wreaking of confirmation bias.

    But you’ve whittled past & gotten straight to the point: if absent velocity & non-repeatable mechanics were at the heart of the decision to move Chamberlain to the bullpen, wouldn’t the return of that velocity & an ability to repeat remove the obstacles that stand in the way of a reconversion to Chamberlain as starter?

    ———————————————————

    Very well said JAP. Now I don’t think he will get a shot at starting again but you brought up a very good point which is if velocity, stuff, and mechanics were some of the issues that kept him out of the rotation than wouldn’t it make sense to give him another chance to show what he’s worth. Cashman is the one that stated the stuff isn’t what it once was.

  161. Erin May 11th, 2011 at 12:02 pm

    YankeesPR Come say hey to Ivan Nova today at 5pm when gates open – Great Hall near Gate 6.

  162. blake May 11th, 2011 at 12:04 pm

    LGY,

    Just read the RAB article.and pretty much agree.with it.

  163. G. Love May 11th, 2011 at 12:05 pm

    blake,

    Jorge’s got the rest of the month to get it going. If he doesn’t I also expect Montero to come up and fill the role.

    The issue then though is 25 man roster spots. You can’t carry an ineffective Jorge, Montero, Cervelli and Martin. That’s 4 catchers and 2 DH’s. The bench will be completely inflexible.

    I can’t imagine the Yankees sending Jorge home and waiving him, but he might just develop a phantom injury to lessen the blow.

    Even if the Yankees are forced to trade for a veteran DH, there isn’t room for Jorge on the roster so this is going to be very interesting if Jorge can’t fix the hitting issue.

  164. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 12:05 pm

    “Pitching in the bullpen is WAY easier way less valuable than starting”

    No, this is where a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

    All innings count equally. A starter is more valuable because he’s conditioned to pitch MORE innings per season, hence the greater value.

    Removing those innings from a career record is a misuse of the principle based on misunderstanding. Those 50-something innings he threw from May to September 2009 are no less valuable than any 50 innings Ian Kennedy has ever thrown during any year in any circumstance.

    You fundamentally misunderstand the starter vs. reliever value argument.

    “Prove what?”

    His superior career numbers.

    Make your case.

    Show your math.

    Would be a lot easier just to do it than to post 3 more times that you don’t have to, which is your common M.O.

  165. randy l. May 11th, 2011 at 12:05 pm

    “The idea that any of us (fans) have enough relevant information and data to determine how a particular pitcher should or should not have been handled is frankly outright silly.

    I suspect it’s still much more art and luck than science for the teams that actually have physical access to a player along with teams of doctors and trainers, much less for yahoos such as ourselves.”

    stuckey-

    i must be a flippin genius then , because i was screaming about wang’s weird 6-8″ high release point in his early spring training starts. pat m and i were discussing it at length one night early in ST. i speculated that eiland must have been trying to get wang to change his release point, and then CB correctly said maybe an injury was causing the high release point which turned out to be correct. the undiagnosed hip weakness was creating the high release point and the out of sync delivery and also the reduced velocity. the yankees kept pitching him though until he broke.

    many of us were not happy with hughes low velocity this past spring training and did not say to ignore it as the yankees did.

    so to say no one not associtated with the yankees knows anything is just plain silly, though i do agree most of the time the yankees of course know more.

    i’ll give another example where they screwed up ,and i said it was going to be a big problem way before the yankees stopped playing giambi which made things worse. giambi’s heel spurs. the yankees made that take way too long the way they handled it. ihad had heel spurs and knew they wouldn’t go away in weeks. it takes maybe 6 months.

    there are probably numerous other examples of people on the blog with experience in something that identify a problem before the yankees do. there used to be quite a few professional physical therapists on the blog.

    can we forget cashman hiring and then firing marty miller after the yankee players did miller’s training program and had the most hamstring injuries in the shortest period in the history of the known universe ?

    yankees infallible?

    i don’t think so.

  166. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 12:06 pm

    Blake

    I have said June 1st all season. But when I was saying that I just assumed Po would come around by now :(

    The closer we get to June 1st the more I want to move the date back, but logically that probably doesn’t make sense.

    In terms of what the Yanks do, I have no clue. But if Po doesn’t start hitting I would call Montero up on the 1st and have him gradually take away Jorge’s PT.

  167. Shame Spencer May 11th, 2011 at 12:06 pm

    I think, as many others do, that this is Posada’s last go-round. I don’t think he’ll be an everyday DH by the time our season is wrapping, but I still think he’ll end up being a factor come fall. Maybe its just wishful thinking, but I’d love if Posada could light it up on the way to another title.

  168. J. Alfred Prufrock May 11th, 2011 at 12:06 pm

    austinmac May 11th, 2011 at 11:09 am
    Joba is and will be in the pen. It doesn’t matter what anyone speculates as to how he would have been a starter. We will never know.
    ///

    Meh, wouldn’t assume anything absolute on this. It will be interesting to see if he maintains his velo all season long and easy throwing, what ST in 2012 brings. They’ve got a new guy working with the staff & if there’s a need, they may well reconsider. Clearly the kid himself would be on board (duh).

  169. J. Alfred Prufrock May 11th, 2011 at 12:08 pm

    Still way too early to make pronouncements about Jorge. It’s comical how easily dismissed an entire career is & it’s not even mid May.

  170. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 12:09 pm

    “Soria has pitched one really bad inning all season. That is not remotely comparable to Hughes/Kennedy.”

    Okay, so let’s make a relative comparison.

    You cool with removing Hughes’ starts against Toronto last year?

  171. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 12:09 pm

    You fundamentally misunderstand the starter vs. reliever value argument.

    —–

    Um no.

    50 innings from a starter ARE more valuable.

    Pitching one inning at a time for 50 innings is much easier than than 50 innings over the course of several starts.

    7 innings from a starter in one night is more valuable than 7 one inning appearances from a reliever.

  172. Mike Ri May 11th, 2011 at 12:10 pm

    J Alfred Prufrock

    I don’t think anyone is dismissing Posadas career. Some of us just want more production out of the DH spot . Even Jorge said himself if he were Giradi he’d take a second look at the DH spot

  173. blake May 11th, 2011 at 12:11 pm

    G. Love,

    Agree….

    LGY,

    I think if they were to make the move then you DH Montero vs lefties (posada has yet to get a hit hitting RH) and catch him on Martin’s days off. If Montero hits then maybe you gradually DH him full time or whatever. As G. Love eluded to though…..it would create a 25 man issue, what do you do with Jorge? What do you do.with Cervelli?

  174. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 12:11 pm

    Okay, so let’s make a relative comparison. You cool with removing Hughes’ starts against Toronto last year?

    —–

    Why are you so bad at this? How is that a relevant comparison?

    You are trying to say Soria is volatile because of one bad inning. That’s laughable.

  175. BoJo May 11th, 2011 at 12:12 pm

    Every time any poster says something is definite and set in stone, I wonder if they ever watched this game of baseball

  176. BoJo May 11th, 2011 at 12:15 pm

    Wow–was that a haiku I just threw out there?

  177. J. Alfred Prufrock May 11th, 2011 at 12:16 pm

    Cashman is the one that stated the stuff isn’t what it once was.

    ///

    Odds, yup. Just goin with ole’ Bri’s own objections. “I don’t know if we’ll ever see that velocity again.” Well, now we’re seeing close to it, Brian. What else you got? ;) .

  178. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 12:19 pm

    # J. Alfred Prufrock May 11th, 2011 at 12:16 pm

    Cashman is the one that stated the stuff isn’t what it once was.

    ///

    Odds, yup. Just goin with ole’ Bri’s own objections. “I don’t know if we’ll ever see that velocity again.” Well, now we’re seeing close to it, Brian. What else you got? ;) .

    ————————————-

    lol, Cash would probably say I’m not even sure he still wants to start.

  179. blake May 11th, 2011 at 12:20 pm

    J alfred,

    I don’t think.anyone is saying that. Jorge is struggling badly and the Yankees #1 prospect just so happens to be ready to replace him…..its almost Mid May now. My wish would be that Posada start to hit…..he’s one of my favorite players ever, but when you have options, he’s in the final year of his deal, he can only DH, and he’s struggling badly…..you have to ask these questions at some point.

  180. J. Alfred Prufrock May 11th, 2011 at 12:21 pm

    Mike Ri May 11th, 2011 at 12:10 pm
    J Alfred Prufrock

    I don’t think anyone is dismissing Posadas career. Some of us just want more production out of the DH spot . Even Jorge said himself if he were Giradi he’d take a second look at the DH spot
    ///

    Um, he’s been dismissed since the season started by many. Perhaps you’re speaking for yourself. Guy is adjusting to a new role after 15 yrs of being a catcher. He’s also not hitting RH AT ALL, which to me screams SSS & outlier. Still has got power. Also, they’re paying him $13M. Not goin to just cut him in mid-May. If he’s still flailing in a month, then yea. If that happens though, I’ll be sad but we’ve got a certain Venezuelan beast in the wings. Of course when he has to undergo an adjustment period against ML pitching, people will be screaming he’s a “bust.”

    I’ll worry about Po later, if later ever comes.

  181. J. Alfred Prufrock May 11th, 2011 at 12:26 pm

    blake May 11th, 2011 at 12:20 pm
    J alfred,

    I don’t think.anyone is saying that. Jorge is struggling badly and the Yankees #1 prospect just so happens to be ready to replace him…..its almost Mid May now. My wish would be that Posada start to hit…..he’s one of my favorite players ever, but when you have options, he’s in the final year of his deal, he can only DH, and he’s struggling badly…..you have to ask these questions at some point.
    ///

    Sure but we’re not there yet. I understand we’ve got Jesus ready to spring. That’s entirely a good thing. & I do think the idleness when the team is on the field is a MAJOR adjustment for Po. How could it not be? We owe him a longer grace period.

  182. Mike Ri May 11th, 2011 at 12:26 pm

    J Alfred Prufrock –

    Of course when he has to undergo an adjustment period against ML pitching, people will be screaming he?s a ?bust.?

    ———–
    They’ll be a grace period .. ( even the most impatient fan will give Montero some time ) .

  183. Warning Track Power May 11th, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    Erin May 11th, 2011 at 9:03 am
    Robertson rocks.
    *************************************
    I can not agree with you more. The man is a magician up there on the mound. Who else noticed he hit 97 with his fastball last night.
    Since he has done this before, I had all the confidence he was going to get out of the jam.
    The nasty curve he threw for his first K was a great pitch.

  184. austinmac May 11th, 2011 at 12:28 pm

    Blake,

    I agree on Danks. The White Sox have announced they are going to a six man rotation. Assuming Peavey can stay healthy a little while, I think one of their starters will be available. I hope for Danks.

  185. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 12:28 pm

    “the undiagnosed hip weakness was creating the high release point and the out of sync delivery and also the reduced velocity. the yankees kept pitching him though until he broke.”

    How do you know the altered release point was the cause of his current injury?

    That’s circumstantial.

    “many of us were not happy with hughes low velocity this past spring training and did not say to ignore it as the yankees did.”

    And in hindsight he’s essentially gotten a clean bill of health. You wanted the Yankees to shut him down for 6 weeks in spring training because his fastball was down 3 MPH?

    “so to say no one not associtated with the yankees knows anything is just plain silly”

    But I didn’t say that.

    I said drawing conclusions is silly. You can have your theories, but to think you know exactly why something happened or know exactly how it could have been prevented is silly.

    “there are probably numerous other examples of people on the blog with experience in something that identify a problem before the yankees do. there used to be quite a few professional physical therapists on the blog.”

    And I suspect each of those physical therapists if worth a damn would be the very first to acknowledge making conclusive evaluations without any first-hand, hands-on time with the person and their medical records is something they’d never do professionally.

    You don’t diagnosis that way, which is my point.

    “yankees infallible?”

    Never said they were. Didn’t even vaguely imply it.

    They just do a LOT more than us and have access to the information no true professional would ever attempt to diagnosis without.

  186. J. Alfred Prufrock May 11th, 2011 at 12:29 pm

    lol, Cash would probably say I’m not even sure he still wants to start.

    ///
    yea but Joba has become marvelously open & even controversial. He has let his hair down, both literally & figuratively. He’ll say: “Start? Bleep yea I wanna start.”

    lol.

    Off to lunch, hopefully a long one. Good one, all.

  187. Wave Your Hat May 11th, 2011 at 12:30 pm

    I don’t see the Yanks calling up Montero until he starts showing more power.

    Justin Maxwell is a better choice for right now, IMO.

  188. blake May 11th, 2011 at 12:31 pm

    J Alfred,

    I agree we aren’t there yet….

    Austinmac,

    I do as well……if the white Sox don’t back in the race soon then he could be made available unless they get an extension done.

  189. charlestonchew May 11th, 2011 at 12:31 pm

    OK – The NL is easier to pitch to, period.

    The pitchers hit.

    And the NL teams have more versatile reserve members who are often defensive-minded players because they are needed. NL teams can’t afford to spend a lot on a couple high-powered offensive replacement players. They often do a lot of double-switching. I know this argument has been made in the past, but it’s important to keep it in mind. It’s not just the pitchers hitting that matters.

  190. J. Alfred Prufrock May 11th, 2011 at 12:32 pm

    They’ll be a grace period .. ( even the most impatient fan will give Montero some time ) .

    ///

    well I sure do hope so, Mike. I do think the reasonable fan faction though isn’t as large as we’d like to think. The Yanks are the ones who need to demonstrate patience though!

    Beautiful & sunny out. Enjoy the rest of your day.

  191. BoJo May 11th, 2011 at 12:32 pm

    Someone (perhaps ac1) yesterday made a comment about how valuable Posada was and that he was a prime ingredient as to the Yankees winning all those titles.

    That really got me wondering how accurate that was and whether the Yankees would have been better served with a catcher like Russ Martin instead. This of course is all groundwork for the debate on Martin vs Montero.

    Anyway, in looking at the record, it seems that Posada was just slightly above league replacement value up until 2000. At that point, he started winning All Star assignments and Silver Slugger awards. (He did okay in 98, but was only in 112 games.)

    So, he played a big role in 2000. In 2001, he was okay. After that, I questioned whether the team would be better served with Posada or a superior defensive catcher. In my mind, Posada didn’t do a great job handling the pitchers, and we couldn’t close out series that should perhaps have been won. Would Martin or someone like him been able to get a called third strike (which Po rarely got), and thus changed the course of events? Who knows?

    But I came away from the review of data with a feeling that Posada gets more credit than he deserves.

  192. Shame Spencer May 11th, 2011 at 12:33 pm

    I think shake ups will only take place when we’re struggling collectively. Posada will be allowed to try and find his groove as long as we can keep winning games. Its just like the “situation” with Jeter earlier.

    As far as what to do if Montero is called up, because of a clogged roster, I’d assume some moves would be made. Cash never likes to let a deadline go without picking up a couple trinkets.

  193. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 12:34 pm

    Oh yea he’d jump at the chance.

    Take care Jap

  194. austinmac May 11th, 2011 at 12:35 pm

    Wave,

    I disagree on Maxwell. He strikes out WAY too much and doesn’t hit for average. He has power, but MLB pitchers will, in my opinion, eat him up.

    I do agree on Montero. He is hitting in the .320s with little power and few walks. I predict the Yankees will add someone from the outside as they did last year to provide some pop.

  195. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 12:36 pm

    Justin Maxwell is a better choice for right now, IMO.

    —–

    He is striking out 37% of the time.

  196. Wave Your Hat May 11th, 2011 at 12:36 pm

    “But I came away from the review of data with a feeling that Posada gets more credit than he deserves.”

    You must not have been there then.

  197. Wave Your Hat May 11th, 2011 at 12:37 pm

    Maxwell’s not perfect, I admit, the average and K’s do give concern. But he can hit the ball out of the park. Fit right in on the current Yanks.

  198. blake May 11th, 2011 at 12:37 pm

    The payrolls between the 2 leagues are that different. Of the top 10 payrolls…..4 are NL teams and the Phillies are 2nd.

    There just isn’t that much difference between the leagues…..its a little easier to have better numbers in the NL because you face a pitcher 2-3 times a game. Doesn’t mean they couldn’t pitch in the AL and be successful.

  199. West Coast Yankee Fan May 11th, 2011 at 12:38 pm

    “Now I don’t think he will get a shot at starting again but you brought up a very good point which is if velocity, stuff, and mechanics were some of the issues that kept him out of the rotation than wouldn’t it make sense to give him another chance to show what he’s worth.”

    **************

    You keep ignoring the fact that Joba’s velocity and stuff is exactly what made him poorly suited to be a starting pitcher. He got his velocity back because he is throwing one inning not 5-7.

    How do I know? Because Rothschild, Cashman and Girardi watch, evaluate and discuss these things all the time. And they make moves and decisions like this one accordingly.

    Joba is a relief pitcher. Deal with it.

  200. Erin May 11th, 2011 at 12:39 pm

    Shame Spencer May 11th, 2011 at 12:33 pm
    I think shake ups will only take place when we?re struggling collectively. Posada will be allowed to try and find his groove as long as we can keep winning games. Its just like the ?situation? with Jeter earlier.

    **********************

    agreed

  201. BoJo May 11th, 2011 at 12:39 pm

    Wave Your Hat May 11th, 2011 at 12:36 pm
    “But I came away from the review of data with a feeling that Posada gets more credit than he deserves.”

    You must not have been there then.
    ____________
    I was there for every pitch. I like Posada’s bat, but never liked his glove.

  202. blake May 11th, 2011 at 12:41 pm

    “Its just like the “situation” with Jeter earlier.”

    Yes and no. It is that they will and should be patient with him…..but there are differences. Jeter is younger, is signed for longer, can still play a position, and most importantly doesn’t have viable replacement options (including Montero) that could replace him.

  203. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 12:41 pm

    How do I know? Because Rothschild, Cashman and Girardi watch, evaluate and discuss these things all the time. And they make moves and decisions like this one accordingly

    ——-

    So those three are infallible?

    I take it, you will no longer complain about Cashman and Girardi?

  204. Erin May 11th, 2011 at 12:45 pm

    On a lighter note:

    AndrewMarchand Check out @Cgrand14 on Bombers Beat. Good stuff from Curtis on Red Sox and why Saved By the Bell is his favorite all-time TV show.

  205. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 12:48 pm

    “50 innings from a starter ARE more valuable. 7 innings from a starter in one night is more valuable than 7 one inning appearances from a reliever.”

    Why?

    I’m not talking about the player. Why are those INNINGS more valuable?

    “Why are you so bad at this? How is that a relevant comparison?”

    Are you familiar with the term “relative”.

    On August 25th, Hughes gave up 5 runs in 3.2 innings to the Jays. Couple of weeks later have gave up 6 earned in 6.

    Those 9.2 innings made up just 5.5% of the innings he pitched that year.

    Take those 5.5% out, and Hughes’s ERA is now 3.83.

    Soria’s bad inning represents 7.3% of his IP this year, a greater % of total body of work than Hughes games against the Jays represents.

    So relatively speaking, why isn’t the comparison relevant?

    Mind you, I’m not expecting an answer, because having a “conversation” with you in entirely a one-sided proposition.

  206. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 12:51 pm

    # West Coast Yankee Fan May 11th, 2011 at 12:38 pm

    “Now I don’t think he will get a shot at starting again but you brought up a very good point which is if velocity, stuff, and mechanics were some of the issues that kept him out of the rotation than wouldn’t it make sense to give him another chance to show what he’s worth.”

    **************

    You keep ignoring the fact that Joba’s velocity and stuff is exactly what made him poorly suited to be a starting pitcher. He got his velocity back because he is throwing one inning not 5-7.

    How do I know? Because Rothschild, Cashman and Girardi watch, evaluate and discuss these things all the time. And they make moves and decisions like this one accordingly.

    Joba is a relief pitcher. Deal with it.

    ———————————————–

    He got his velocity back because he’s healthy. He had velocity issues for a couple of months last yr when he was a relief pitcher.

    I have dealt it but I don’t agree with it.

  207. Shame Spencer May 11th, 2011 at 12:52 pm

    blake – All true. But Posada isn’t exactly some Joe Schmo either. He’s still getting $13 mil this season and was a member of one of the greatest dynasties baseball has seen in a long time. Which is why I think if we’re still winning, he’ll still be penciled in as DH. I don’t think he gets moved out of that spot until we find ourselves up against a wall.

  208. Rob_NY May 11th, 2011 at 12:54 pm

    “You fundamentally misunderstand the starter vs. reliever value argument.”

    It’s very often argued that starters turned relievers have their stuff “play up”. Because they can air it out in one inning instead of saving it for seven they have more to work with. If you have better stuff as a reliever, like Hughes pumping his normally good fastball at 96 mph, wouldn’t it stand to reason that pitching gets easier? Does Hughes have an easier time pitching 1 inning with a 96 mph fastball or 6 innings with a 92 mph fastball? That’s comparing just 1 inning. Hughes pitching the first at 92 or Hughes pitching the 8th at 96. Which Hughes has an easier time?

  209. Erin May 11th, 2011 at 12:57 pm

    Well, now look who’s on Twitter. :)

    @DRob30

  210. West Coast Yankee Fan May 11th, 2011 at 12:57 pm

    Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 12:51 pm

    He got his velocity back because he’s healthy. He had velocity issues for a couple of months last yr when he was a relief pitcher.

    I have dealt it but I don’t agree with it.

    ****************

    That’s fair enough.

    Do you not think though that Cashman et al would not want Joba to be a starter if they thought there was a chance that he was going to be successful? Given the Lee and Pettitte situation and the uncertainty surrounding the rest of the staff – don’t you think they would have loved for Joba to become a starter?

    That’s why I firmly believe there are things in play concerning Joba that we don’t know.

  211. blake May 11th, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    Shame,

    I agree and that’s why he will get time to turn things around. I don’t however think that winning games will do anything to buy him more time if he doesnt get it going within a month or so……I still think and hope he will.

  212. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 1:00 pm

    RMS is right. A pitcher’s stuff plays up in the bullpen. He can air it out for one inning. HR also doesn’t have to worry about flipping a lineup over multiple times.

    The degree of difficulty is much greater for a starter than a reliever.

    Given this increased difficulty, a starter’s innings are more valuable.

  213. Bronx Jeers May 11th, 2011 at 1:01 pm

    Saved By The Bell ?

    I want to party with Curtis!

  214. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 1:04 pm

    # West Coast Yankee Fan May 11th, 2011 at 12:57 pm

    Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 12:51 pm

    He got his velocity back because he’s healthy. He had velocity issues for a couple of months last yr when he was a relief pitcher.

    I have dealt it but I don’t agree with it.

    ****************

    That’s fair enough.

    Do you not think though that Cashman et al would not want Joba to be a starter if they thought there was a chance that he was going to be successful? Given the Lee and Pettitte situation and the uncertainty surrounding the rest of the staff – don’t you think they would have loved for Joba to become a starter?

    That’s why I firmly believe there are things in play concerning Joba that we don’t know.

    ———————————————-

    I think they reached a point where they don’t want to relive the Joba experiment no matter what happens. Even if he can start I feel they would rather have him in the pen because he has been bounced around so much over the past couple of seasons.

    If the injury concern of having him start was a risk than why have him prepare as a starter all winter to compete for a starting role in 2010.

  215. Pat M. May 11th, 2011 at 1:05 pm

    Bill Gallo passed away and so did a part of my childhood……As for Ian Kennedy…..I really suggest you watch him pitch, he’s good and only going to get better…..Said this many times before, he’s going to be a annual 15 game winner and if he stays healthy he could end up with 180-200 wins…….Sad day though

  216. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 1:05 pm

    So relatively speaking, why isn’t the comparison relevant?

    ——

    Soria’s ERA is just a matter of SSS. Once he gets enough innings his ERA will be fine like it always it. Hughes’ starts for the Jays were not a SSS problem affecting his ERA.

    Soria is not volatile. Calling him volatile fundamentally misunderstands how relievers compile their numbers and frankly is ridiculous.

  217. Erin May 11th, 2011 at 1:07 pm

    Bronx Jeers May 11th, 2011 at 1:01 pm
    Saved By The Bell ?

    I want to party with Curtis!

    *****************

    :lol:

    I’m mad at TBS for changing their schedule around in the mornings. I always used to watch SBTB while I was getting ready for work and now it’s on just as I’m leaving. Grrrrr….

  218. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    “The degree of difficulty is much greater for a starter than a reliever.”

    Understand this likely applies to a pitcher with the stuff to significantly increase it in shorter stints. Some pitchers don’t have that club in their bad.

    “Given this increased difficulty, a starter’s innings are more valuable.”

    No, this is where your logic takes a breather.

    Again, saying the player is more valuable and saying the inning is more valuable is where you’re confusing yourself.

    Forget “stuff” for a moment (as I haven’t and won’t introduce leverage to the discourse). Take any certain one or 2 PITCHERS out of you mind.

    Explain to me why the 8th inning is more or less valuable than the 3rd inning in ANY game, generally speaking?

    Again, you’re confusing the inning with the manner in which a player navigated it, which is a common mistake for those with limited capacity in this sort of thing.

  219. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    “Soria’s ERA is just a matter of SSS. Once he gets enough innings his ERA will be fine like it always it.”

    That’s an assumption.

    “Hughes’ starts for the Jays were not a SSS problem affecting his ERA.”

    But they did, by over .35 points.

    “Soria is not volatile. Calling him volatile fundamentally misunderstands how relievers compile their numbers and frankly is ridiculous.”

    No, what I fundamentally understand is Soria actually has to pitch May-September 2011 to conclude his numbers will be where they always are.

    But yeah, let’s laser-focus on ONE comp YOU introduced to the conversation and NOT answer the very simply, utterly relevant question of how Kennedy has had a better career than Hughes.

  220. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 1:18 pm

    “Explain to me why the 8th inning is more or less valuable than the 3rd inning in ANY game, generally speaking?

    Again, you’re confusing the inning with the manner in which a player navigated it, which is a common mistake for those with limited capacity in this sort of thing.”

    ————-

    The amount of innings your bullpen can handle over the course of a season is limited.

    You need your starters to be able to flip over a lineup multiple times for your bullpen to have a chance to be effective over the course of the season.

    If a start only last 1, 2, 3 innings or whatever the difference doesn’t. But those times when a starter goes through a lineup a 2, 3, or more times are more valuable because they have a greater impact on a team over the course of a season.

    The way a pitcher navigates those innings DO make them more valuable, because no team has enough effective pitchers to just throw relievers out there one inning at a time over and over again unless the starters are giving them length.

    Sorry to burst your bubble stuckey,

  221. Irreverent Discourse May 11th, 2011 at 1:23 pm

    ^this. Stop arguing semantics with Stuckey.

  222. Bronx Jeers May 11th, 2011 at 1:23 pm

    I’m mad at TBS for changing their schedule around in the mornings. I always used to watch SBTB while I was getting ready for work and now it’s on just as I’m leaving. Grrrrr….

    ————————————————————————————————————-

    I hate it when they do that.

    Pat M,

    Although I don’t buy the NYDN anymore I was always a fan of Gallo. Everybody seems to be pointing out his piece after Thurman’s accident as a signature moment for him.

    Too much blather in today’s papers. Gallo didn’t need words to capture what we were feeling. It’s a sad day for NY sports journalism that’s for sure.

  223. Irreverent Discourse May 11th, 2011 at 1:26 pm

    Kennedy has 1 season under his belt and a bunch of assorted relief appearances.
    Hughes has 1 season as a starter, and 1 full season as an elite level reliever.
    Hughes has this big gaudy thing on his finger called a World Series ring, to which he contributed immensely.

    On what planet has Kennedy been more successful?

  224. UnKnown May 11th, 2011 at 1:26 pm

    I never really saw that Coke could ever be a starter. Leyland has been giving him a chance this season however.

  225. Pat M. May 11th, 2011 at 1:30 pm

    Irreverent Discourse……Hughes has the greater upside and talent than Ian, however suddenly staying healthy is becoming a topic…….Strange injuries but he’s lost quite a bit of time……

  226. Irreverent Discourse May 11th, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    Pat M – Certainly, and going forward one might find Kennedy to be more reliable from a health standpoint… IMO, that doesn’t take away from what Hughes has done and is expected to do as a healthy player.

    A lot of pitchers would be better off pitching in AZ in the NL west, Hughes included. That’s not the sole reason for Kennedy’s “success” though, he is pitching well. Elite well? No, I don’t think so, that I can blame on the NL.

  227. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 1:35 pm

    Phil Hughes has pitched 326 innings with a 4.97 ERA as a starter in his career. In his first full season as a starter he pitched 176 innings of 4.19 ERA baseball and a 102 ERA+. He has followed that up by spending most of this season on the DL. In the 3 years he has been a starter, he has spent the majority of 2 of those seasons on the DL. It looks like it will be 3 out of 4 this season.

    As a reliever, he has pitched 53 innings of 1.35 ERA baseball.

    Ian Kennedy has pitched 302 innings as starter. He has a 4.13 career ERA. In his first full year as a starter, he pitched 194 innings of 3.80 ERA baseball with a 111 ERA+. He has followed that up taking a step forward and pitching extremely well so far in 2011. 53 innings of 3.20 ERA baseball and 123 ERA+. He missed one full season with his aneurysm in 2009.

    So far in Hughes’ career he has been very injury prone, has really bad numbers as a starter, pitched above average as a starter last season, and was a great reliever.

    So far in Kennedy’s career he has put up above average numbers as a starter, pitched well last year, and looks like he has taken it to the next level this year.

    I’ll take the career of the guy who has been a significantly better starter and healthier over the guy who has had a great 50 innings of relief work as the thing that stands out.

    While, I think Hughes will have a better career, Kennedy’s career has been better thus far.

  228. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 1:36 pm

    LGY, again, you’re confusing the value of a starter and reliever with the value of an inning pitched in a start or in relief.

    You’re describing the value of players, not innings.

    In 2009, Wang pitched 34 innings as a starter, to the tune of a 11.34 ERA.

    Sergio Mitre pitched 44 innings to 7.14 ERA.

    So where those 78 innings more “valuable” than Hughes 51.1 innings?

    That’s a question, I’d appreciate an answer.

    What you fail to understand is in order to answer my question you have to remove relative performance from the equation.

    Again, I agree, an EFFECTIVE starter is more valuable than an any reliever.

    And 5 innings of effectively pitched innings is more valuable than 1 inning of effectively pitched ball.

    No one is arguing this.

    But no ONE inning is more valuable than another.

    CC Sabathia was of course the more valuable pitcher in 2009, but his no ONE of any of his his 50.1 innings were more or less valuable than Hughes’.

    The 33 times he grouped 5 or more innings together of course is.

    Until you’re ready to stop arguing and start THINKING, this is going nowhere, but fast.

  229. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 1:36 pm

    Ian Kennedy has a World Series ring.

  230. Irreverent Discourse May 11th, 2011 at 1:37 pm

    Kennedy’s career has been shorter thus far, but that’s about the only conclusion you can come to here. Hughes “mediocre” year as a starter was against a much higher level of competition than anything Kennedy has seen since he left NY.

  231. Irreverent Discourse May 11th, 2011 at 1:38 pm

    LGY – A technicality, what did he contribute to it? Staying off the roster is his biggest contribution?

  232. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 1:38 pm

    “LGY, again, you’re confusing the value of a starter and reliever with the value of an inning pitched in a start or in relief.”

    —————

    Not I’m not.

    Of course, if the difference in performance of that inning is large there is an issue.

    But, one inning from a starter IS more valuable than one inning from a reliever. How many times do I have to say that before you stop distorting it?

  233. Pat M. May 11th, 2011 at 1:40 pm

    ID……I’ve watched Ian throw this season and I do think some of our fellow LoHuders would be shocked to see how much Ian has matured and improved ……I mean he looks and performs like a MLB pitcher who controls the game and has confidence in what he’s doing out there……..I always said that he was the more polished of the three when they were coming up and that comes from pitching for USC in big NCAA games…….And he looks quite polished and mature right now…..His last two starts were vs. Lee and Lincicum and pitched toe to toe with them….1 run surrendered vs The Phillies and Giants is impressive, very impressive

  234. ZMAN May 11th, 2011 at 1:41 pm

    “I think Hughes was handed a rotation spot in 2008. Kennedy also. The fact that Cashman chose to bring in no other options that off season cements that feeling. ”

    Can you imagine if he did the same thing this year and instead of bringing in guys like Garcia, Colon… he decided to let Warren, Phelps, Noesi, etc. compete for spots?

    That would have been a disaster. Highly unlikely they would have put up the innings and effectiveness that Garcia/Colon have.

    As to your earlier post about Hughes’ spotty overall body of work and inconsistency, you are 100% correct.

  235. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 1:42 pm

    “Kennedy’s career has been shorter thus far, but that’s about the only conclusion you can come to here. Hughes “mediocre” year as a starter was against a much higher level of competition than anything Kennedy has seen since he left NY.”

    ———————

    2010 Quality of Opponent:

    Phil Hughes: .753 OPS.

    Ian Kennedy: .770 OPS.

  236. Irreverent Discourse May 11th, 2011 at 1:42 pm

    You’re describing the value of players, not innings.

    This is such a stupid debate. The players have to pitch the innings, and they have to come back and pitch tomorrow. You can’t eliminate the need to balance workload over the course of a season.

    Pigeonholing the sample into one game is meaningless.

    What is more valuable to a team the next day, a starter pitching 9 innings of 3hit 1 run baseball or 9 relievers combining for a no-hitter in 1 inning stints?

  237. Betsy May 11th, 2011 at 1:42 pm

    Hi guys!

    Thanks for the welcome, but I’m not back. I just wanted to post in response to LGY’s comments – not about Phil, but about Cashman. I’ve been plenty annoyed with him this off-season and he should take his share of blame, but I don’t believe he deserves to be blamed for ruining Joba or Phil’s careers. My overall philosophy is that the player is the one who determines the course of his career….how good he is or is not, will be or won’t be. I don’t believe the Yankees ought to shoulder that much responsibility (nor should any team, IMO)

  238. YsGuy May 11th, 2011 at 1:46 pm

    i for one never looked at kennedy as an immature guy, just a guy who has succeeded at every level having a little trouble settling into the majors. i never doubted that he would make it in the bigs,he’s just that kind of guy who is always going to be close to his ceiling. people on this blog are so heavily into ‘instant analysis’ which is so inappropriate in baseball. im no scout, i just read about him from college through the minors and everyone who had direct contact with him painted a picture of a mature and confident guy who was in charge out there and a natural in any situation, the ian we saw wasnt the ian that people who had seen him over several years were describing.

    now he’s adjusted and he’s become exactly what people had projected for him and i’m really glad to see it, in fact, i hope we get to see him back in pinstripes at some point.

  239. Yank1 May 11th, 2011 at 1:46 pm

    With Hughes’ HR tendencies and inconsistency at mixing his pitches, I think he would have a greater NL/AL disparity than Kennedy would if both were compared.

    I think too many people are looking at Kennedy’s stuff when evaluating him as some guy who will get eaten up by the AL. Let’s not act like Hughes is Verlander here, from that standpoint. Kennedy had a higher K/9 last year anyway, even if you take into account the pitcher, it would still be very close. Not bad for a ‘soft tosser’.

  240. Betsy May 11th, 2011 at 1:46 pm

    LGY, I didn’t want to ignore your response. You’re right – Phil has been injury prone. I’m sorry to say that sometimes some players are just like – and I’m not sure there’s anything anyone can do about it. I couldn’t believe he admitted that he was trying to pitch through discomfort before getting the cortisone shot. Phil is honestly very lucky that he didn’t suffer any structural damage to his shoulder/arm. The only thing I’ll say about Joba is that he did not have a bad enough year in 2009 to warrant being labeled a reliever forever – but I think the Yankees saw more than just the #s. I’m willing to trust them there. If Joba were to have remained in the rotation in 2010, then Phil would have stayed in the pen, thereby totally setting him back in terms of being a starter (no, the Yankees would not have gone with a potentially shaky Joba and an untested Phil in 2010, not IMO)

  241. Betsy May 11th, 2011 at 1:47 pm

    I’m not sure what IPK would have (or will do) in the AL, but for now, he’s a very good pitcher – better overall than Joba or Phil for sure.

  242. Irreverent Discourse May 11th, 2011 at 1:47 pm

    LGY – I don’t know where you got that number, but Kennedy’s OPS against was .696 in 2010.

    Still, it’s not the difference I was expecting…

  243. Betsy May 11th, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    I really don’t see what the Yankees did wrong re: Phil. He lost his curve and won’t throw his change. There’s not much they can do. You can teach and preach all you want, but in the end, the players have to execute. They handled his innings very well last year – what got him was that he didn’t adjust.

  244. Yank1 May 11th, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    “and 1 full season as an elite level reliever.”

    It was actually 3 months (didn’t become a full-time SU man till early July. Remember, he was pitching in relief of Wang for most of June and a starter before that). And in September, he blew 3 saves and was obviously a disaster in October.

    Stamina may be an issue for him as well.

  245. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    Of pitchers who threw 100 or more innings last season, if you sort by OPS of the batters pitchers faced, Ian Kennedy faced the 10th toughest opponents in MLB last season.

    Only 9 pitchers in MLB with 100 or more innings faced batters with higher OPS’s last season.

  246. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 1:50 pm

    LGY – I don’t know where you got that number, but Kennedy’s OPS against was .696 in 2010.

    ——————

    OPS against is what Ian Kennedy holds batters to.

    Opponent OPS is what the batters Ian Kennedy faced put up over the course of the season.

  247. Betsy May 11th, 2011 at 1:50 pm

    As to Joba, I’m not ready to say he’s capable of being Mo’s successor. No one can replace Mo, but to be a closer, you need to have other qualities besides having very good stuff. You have to be able to put bad performances behind you, for one. No one knows how good Joba (or any other untested pitcher) would do in those situations. Robertson walks too many for my taste at this point.

  248. Betsy May 11th, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    Stuckey, I’m not sure why minor league numbers count at this point. I think Nova is a better starter than Phil at this point – also IPK.

  249. Jerzz May 11th, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    LGY,

    Couldn’t agree more. This NL vs. AL thing is really being blown out of proportion. Maybe at one point, the AL was that much better. Certainly not anymore.

    When people think of AL- they think of the heavy-hitters like the Yanks/Sox/Rangers/Jays, etc.

    Plenty of easy outs at the bottom of the Mariners, As, Orioles, Rays, Indians, Tigers, Royals, etc. lineups as well. AL teams are more top heavy offensively, NL probably has better balance throughout the league.

  250. Bronx Jeers May 11th, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    Of pitchers who threw 100 or more innings last season, if you sort by OPS of the batters pitchers faced, Ian Kennedy faced the 10th toughest opponents in MLB last season.

    ——————————————————————————————————————-

    Sure but then again it was against that lightweight NL pitching. You know…with all those AB’s wearing them down and whatnot. :wink:

  251. Irreverent Discourse May 11th, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    LGY Source? Somehow I sincerely doubt that statistic is formed properly since NL pitchers he faced at least twice, sometime 3 times a game have extremely low OPS.

  252. Pat M. May 11th, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    LGY….Do you have a way of finding out what Joba’s average pitches per inning as a starter vs. a reliever is ????? Welcome back Bets

  253. MBKeaton May 11th, 2011 at 1:56 pm

    Regardless of what career paths Hughes and Joba take, I’m extremely happy to see IPK doing well. It’s always nice to see our former top prospects proving that they’re not just victims of Yankee hype. At this point, I honestly wish to see Joba traded away just so he can be given a fair shot as a starter.

  254. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 1:56 pm

    ID,

    http://www.baseballprospectus......cid=526220

  255. Irreverent Discourse May 11th, 2011 at 1:57 pm

    AL teams are by definition more balanced offensively Jerzz. They don’t bat pitchers.

    And those Al teams you rattled off would win a lot more games if they didn’t have to play against team that had better offensive depth (ie. the NL).

  256. G. Love May 11th, 2011 at 1:59 pm

    I think stamina and the propensity for misleading to the team about his physical condition are Hughes’ biggest issues outside of no secondary pitch development.

    Physically, Hughes can’t do this job consistently. The Yankees babied his arm and built up his innings and he still faded as a reliever and as a starter. This has happened in 09, 10 and 11. I won’t even go into 08 since his fans let him off the hook for concealing a rib injury that made him pitch poorly. Coming into this season with no arm strength only further indicts the physical issues Hughes has.

    While I’m not ready to say IPK was a major loss (we did get Grandy for him and Jackson & Coke), I do think it’s more than reasonable to say that IPK is the better pitcher at this point.

    Hughes gets so much credit for being an all star, but he was an all star picked by his manager to be on the team and shortly after being an all star he turned into a punching bag for the opposing team last year.

    I don’t see how the Yankees can depend on Hughes for anything at this point. I feel he’s slipped behind Joba in that respect.

    Say you get a good couple of months out of him this season, you feel confident penciling him for a full season role next year? I don’t.

    I think I would have rather found out he had a real injury than this mysterious dead arm stuff. He had this happen as a reliever and as a starter so there’s no solution other than to deal with it. His trade value is shot so it’s not like you’re going to get anything valuable for him anymore. You’d have to be a moron as a GM to trade something good for Hughes when you don’t know if his arm can last a full season.

    I almost feel like the Yankees have to move on from relying on him and just take what they can get from him before he goes free agent.

    I would not pencil him into a spot in next years rotation regardless of what he contributes this season.

  257. Betsy May 11th, 2011 at 2:00 pm

    Hi Pat!

    This is probably a one day only thing because I wanted to defend the Yankees in terms of their development of pitchers.

  258. Irreverent Discourse May 11th, 2011 at 2:00 pm

    LGY I can’t find on the site what they evaltuate to come up with that stat. It doesn’t seem fishy to you at all that most of that list is dominated by NL starters? 7 of the top 10 teams in OPS were in the AL last year.

  259. Betsy May 11th, 2011 at 2:01 pm

    GLove, the fact that he “lied” or misled about his arm disturbs me as well.

  260. LGY May 11th, 2011 at 2:01 pm

    ID,

    They don’t evaluate anything. They don’t league or park adjust it or whatever.

    It is simply the aggregate OPS of the batters each pitcher faced.

  261. Betsy May 11th, 2011 at 2:02 pm

    GL, actually he was picked by the players as an All-Star.

  262. Jerzz May 11th, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    “AL teams are by definition more balanced offensively Jerzz. They don’t bat pitchers.”

    I meant the overall league, not individual teams. The NL doesn’t have that lineup that is comparable to the best AL lineups (Philly a couple years ago was, not anymore). There is more mediocrity in that league. There is not a Yankees vs. Mariners disparity in the amount of RS.

    It also helps that Yankees pitchers don’t actually face the best offense in baseball.

  263. G. Love May 11th, 2011 at 2:06 pm

    Betsy,

    I thought the manager picks the pitchers for the All Star game?

  264. ET May 11th, 2011 at 2:07 pm

    “GL, actually he was picked by the players as an All-Star.”

    But his numbers were heavily skewed pre and post 5/17. Players probably factor in win-total into the equation and go with the safe choices.

    Kay was talking sometime ago about how a lot of these players don’t even fill out these ballots themselves, they just let the clubhouse manager or someone do it for them.

  265. Irreverent Discourse May 11th, 2011 at 2:08 pm

    http://www.baseballprospectus......leid=11997

    Good explanations of why those OPS numbers are different. Essentially Hughes is lower because he doesn’t face the Yankees.

    Also, Kennedy’s Opponent OPS was at .726 on Sept 15… and went up 50 points int he last 2 weeks?

    I don’t like this stat, not one bit.

  266. NYYROC May 11th, 2011 at 2:08 pm

    It seems like the change the selection process for pitchers and reserves from time to time. But Hughes was picked by the AL players.

  267. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 2:09 pm

    # Betsy May 11th, 2011 at 1:42 pm

    Hi guys!

    Thanks for the welcome, but I’m not back. I just wanted to post in response to LGY’s comments – not about Phil, but about Cashman. I’ve been plenty annoyed with him this off-season and he should take his share of blame, but I don’t believe he deserves to be blamed for ruining Joba or Phil’s careers. My overall philosophy is that the player is the one who determines the course of his career….how good he is or is not, will be or won’t be. I don’t believe the Yankees ought to shoulder that much responsibility (nor should any team, IMO)

    —————————–

    Let me play devil’s advocate for a second if that’s the case then an organization doesn’t deserve credit for a player that succeeds.

  268. bruceb May 11th, 2011 at 2:09 pm

    Betsy…good to see you’re not back! That’s 8 posts so far.

  269. Vineyard Yankee May 11th, 2011 at 2:10 pm

    Erin May 11th, 2011 at 11:58 am

    Vineyard Yankee May 11th, 2011 at 11:47 am

    Sounds like a friggin jigsaw puzzle. All the more reason for me to rely on you and not set one up myself.

    **************************

    LOL I didn’t have an account for a long time, but I finally went ahead and got one. It’s kind of addicting. ;)

    ================

    Addicting like blogging ? :-) Just think now that you found tweets from DRob you have two side jobs at LoHud, Blog Thread Alerts for Chad and Posting Twitter Updates on the Blog. Where do I send in the hard copy request for an increase in your commission check ?

  270. Jerzz May 11th, 2011 at 2:10 pm

    I wouldn’t take the players’ vote as something genuine. They are the same ones who vote Jeter/ARod as the most overrated players every year. They probably just pick the guys with the most wins. I also highly doubt they take much time to fill out their ballots – their managers probably do it for them. Think Jeter is sitting intently at his PC looking up numbers of all the pitchers in the AL when casting his vote? Think he even casts his own vote? lol

  271. Betsy May 11th, 2011 at 2:10 pm

    GLove, nope. However, at the time I said that I didn’t think it was a great selection. I believe the players had to have their choices in prior to a certain date – and Phil struggled before the ASB. Many fans thought Jered Weaver deserved it over him – or obviously Felix, despite his record.

  272. Irreverent Discourse May 11th, 2011 at 2:11 pm

    Players are always going to vote players that make the most money as overrated, they are jealous.

  273. Betsy May 11th, 2011 at 2:12 pm

    Odds, that’s fine – I’ll go with that. IMO, a player’s ability determines (plus work ethic and things like that) how far he’ll go in his chosen profession. There are always going to be some examples of organizations that hurt players, but overall, it’s on the player.

  274. Yank1 May 11th, 2011 at 2:12 pm

    G. Love – you’re probably onto something, re: stamina.

    As a reliever, he blew 3 saves in the month of September and obviously was a disaster in Oct.

    Last year though, he actually ended with 2 good games and was highly mediocre from the end of May on overall, but finished pretty well. But again, bad in October.

    If nothing else, it shows that these innings limits and slowly building guys up doesn’t protect against anything.

  275. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 2:13 pm

    I honestly wish to see Joba traded away just so he can be given a fair shot as a starter.

    ————————————

    you and me both but for now I can live with him relieving

  276. Betsy May 11th, 2011 at 2:13 pm

    Bruceb, nice to know you can count – did you need to use a calculator? Notice how I said it was probably a one day thing – last I checked, May 11th isn’t over yet.

  277. Vineyard Yankee May 11th, 2011 at 2:13 pm

    Betsy:

    I thought you were on vacation ? ? This blog, Phil and Cash will all be here when you get back, turn off the internet device(s) and go enjoy yourself.

  278. Betsy May 11th, 2011 at 2:14 pm

    VY, nope, I was around. I leave on real vacation on 5/21. I’ve still kept up on the blog – I just didn’t post.

  279. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 2:14 pm

    “Not I’m not.

    Of course, if the difference in performance of that inning is large there is an issue.

    But, one inning from a starter IS more valuable than one inning from a reliever. How many times do I have to say that before you stop distorting it?”

    Saying something incorrect repeatedly doesn’t not make it any less incorrect.

    Anybody versed in simple analysis knows you disqualified yourself to any claim you understand what’s being explained to you when you say “if the difference in performance of that inning is large there is an issue.”

    No there isn’t, and that’s the WHOLE POINT. I’m describing something wholly independent of performance and you keep retorting citing performance.

    I’ll give you an example. By what utterly arbitrary figure you’re about to completely make up constitutes “large”, and therefore when the qualifier kicks in?

    Can provide an empirical answer to that question?

  280. bruceb May 11th, 2011 at 2:16 pm

    No offense meant … I am trying to stop posting here as a few people seem to enjoy nothing better than launching personal attacks over your opinions.

  281. Irreverent Discourse May 11th, 2011 at 2:16 pm

    Stuvckey would be better suited as a jelly bean inspector.

  282. Vineyard Yankee May 11th, 2011 at 2:16 pm

    Betsy May 11th, 2011 at 2:14 pm

    Okie Dokie.

  283. Irreverent Discourse May 11th, 2011 at 2:17 pm

    How about this… an 8th inning pitched by the starter is more valuable to a team than an 8th inning pitched by a reliever.

    1 player < 2 players = more value.

  284. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 2:18 pm

    “Stuckey, I’m not sure why minor league numbers count at this point. I think Nova is a better starter than Phil at this point – also IPK.”

    Betsy, not sure why this is addressed to me. I neither mention anyone’s MiL numbers or Ivan Nova.

    But trust me, we all get it.

    You’re extremely disappointed in who you arbitrarily selected as your favorite player you never actually saw play a few years ago and are so spurned to take every opportunity available to express it.

    This is a statement of fact Betsy, and you’re totally withing your rights to do so, but you’d get a lot less grief around here if you simply came out and acknowledged what we all know.

  285. Betsy May 11th, 2011 at 2:19 pm

    Bruceb, no problem – sorry I snapped. It’s ok with me if people don’t like me or my opinions, but since they couldn’t hide their feelings, I left the blog – and my life was a lot easier, I have to say. I’ll probably go back to lurking, but I do miss some of the good conversations I used to have here.

  286. Erin May 11th, 2011 at 2:20 pm

    BrianCoz Luis Ayala will be activated for tonight’s #yankees game

    BrianCoz Not sure of corresponding move yet but I’m told it is NOT Soriano going to DL. probably Pendleton going to SWB

  287. Betsy May 11th, 2011 at 2:20 pm

    Stuckey, you don’t even remember posting this?

    Phil Hughes has just pitched a ton more at a lesser age and of course has the superior (and very good) ML W-L record (which I know, apparently doesn?t count either).

    **Ok, I’m sorry, I saw ML as minor league. You can feel free to completely disregard my post and I will do the same to yours.

  288. Erin May 11th, 2011 at 2:21 pm

    Vineyard Yankee May 11th, 2011 at 2:10 pm
    Addicting like blogging ? Just think now that you found tweets from DRob you have two side jobs at LoHud, Blog Thread Alerts for Chad and Posting Twitter Updates on the Blog. Where do I send in the hard copy request for an increase in your commission check ?

    *********************

    LOL You’re coming up with all kinds of ways for me to make money-I like it!! ;)

  289. MBKeaton May 11th, 2011 at 2:22 pm

    Something from the Big Three that I hope isn’t repeated: when the Killer Bs come up, I don’t want to see them constantly shuffled back and forth between the rotation and bullpen. It seems to cause endless innings concerns.

  290. Betsy May 11th, 2011 at 2:22 pm

    Oh, and one more thing, don’t you speak for me and don’t you try and play psychiatrist. You have no idea how I feel or what motivates me – and the fact that you even try to do so really reveals a lot about you. Why don’t you go and pick apart LGY’s posts or GLove’s posts? (Sorry guys – I don’t wish him on you at all, but I had to make my point).

  291. G. Love May 11th, 2011 at 2:22 pm

    Glad to see Ayala make it back. I liked his stuff in the pen. His ball had a lot of movement early on.

  292. Triple Short of a Cycle May 11th, 2011 at 2:23 pm

    Regarding the new Nassau Coliseum that is being voted on, it is supposed to include a minor league baseball stadium. Does anyone know the affiliate?

  293. Bronx Jeers May 11th, 2011 at 2:24 pm

    The day I seriously stress out over this place is the day I hand in my LoHud decoder ring.

    But not before I release all the personal info I have been gathering for nearly 3 years. I know all your area codes. Don’t cross me!

  294. bruceb May 11th, 2011 at 2:24 pm

    I enjoy reading the posts too but I shouldn’t comment during the game threads as I get way too emotional/judgmental. Even after seven years here in the States, I have never got used to the fact that even when you support a winning team in baseball, there’s still so much losing. You need to very even-keeled to be a baseball fan. I don’t fall into that category.

  295. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 2:25 pm

    “What is more valuable to a team the next day, a starter pitching 9 innings of 3hit 1 run baseball or 9 relievers combining for a no-hitter in 1 inning stints?”

    The next day??

    The starter, of course.

  296. G. Love May 11th, 2011 at 2:26 pm

    Yank 1,

    I actually think the fact that the innings limits program led to Joba becoming a starter and Hughes becoming a mess might cause the Yankees to actually promote Banuelos and Betances sooner and just use them while they are healthy and throwing the kind of stuff that gets MLB hitters out.

    The kid gloves approach didn’t yield a 200 inning workhorse yet so I think the organization should just bring up the best arms when they are ready to get MLB hitters out regardless of innings thrown.

    I don’t think there’s a formula that works. I think it all comes down to the individual player, not the program.

    If the Yankees need a starter and Manny B. can get out major league hitters, he should be doing it here rather than Trenton. Same goes for all the other young guys in the minors.

    The M’s promoted Pineda before everyone through they should and he’s been quite good so far.

    The bubble wrap approach to developing pitching needs to stop.

  297. Nick in SF May 11th, 2011 at 2:26 pm

    Ok, it’s never a good idea to jump into such a mature long conversation without having read all of it, but… Ian Kennedy has also missed a huge chunk of time to injuries, no?

    At this snapshot moment in time, Kennedy is the winner ‘cos he’s actually pitching and not hanging out in MRI tubes and waiting rooms, but pre-2011 I don’t know how anyone can say he’s been the better pitcher because he was healthy and Hughes was injury-prone. Apologies if no one actually said that.

    Stuckey, I haven’t been to my P.O. Box in a few days, would it be a waste of time to visit this afternoon (if I was looking for something from you only, that is, a hypothetical question)?

  298. G. Love May 11th, 2011 at 2:28 pm

    Meant to say Joba becoming a reliever, not starter in above post.

  299. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 2:28 pm

    # MBKeaton May 11th, 2011 at 2:22 pm

    Something from the Big Three that I hope isn’t repeated: when the Killer Bs come up, I don’t want to see them constantly shuffled back and forth between the rotation and bullpen. It seems to cause endless innings concerns.

    —————————————————

    Cashman didn’t rule out Man Ban coming up at some point later in the yr if they still need a lefty in the pen. He didn’t say he would definitely come up but he didn’t rule it out as a possibility.

  300. Bronx Jeers May 11th, 2011 at 2:29 pm

    Regarding the new Nassau Coliseum that is being voted on, it is supposed to include a minor league baseball stadium. Does anyone know the affiliate?

    ————————————————————————————————–

    I’m marking you down as a probable 516. You’re in my cross-hairs now.

  301. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 2:30 pm

    Betsy,

    Your comments don’t change the fact I’m correct, and you’re apparently the only person here not aware of it.

    There isn’t a person here (that you like, don’t, or anything in-between) that will go on record genuinely refuting the notion that you have a fixation about Phil Hughes.

    They may take shots at me, tell you not to pay me any mind, which is fine and good, but you ARE fixated on Phil Hughes.

    One needn’t be a psychiatrist to recognize that.

  302. tyanksfan36 May 11th, 2011 at 2:33 pm

    Betsy May 11th, 2011 at 2:22 pm
    Oh, and one more thing, don’t you speak for me and don’t you try and play psychiatrist. You have no idea how I feel or what motivates me

    —-

    Maybe you should take your own advice and stop acting like Phil Hughes spokesperson. You make many generalizations about him. Do you know Phil? Do you talk to him on a daily basis? Are you his mother? because you sure act like it.

  303. G. Love May 11th, 2011 at 2:34 pm

    Jeers,

    I sport area codes in every state for all my illegitimate children. I’m the blog’s Antonio Cromartie. Holla.

  304. AZ88 May 11th, 2011 at 2:34 pm

    stuckey,

    No doubt. That is why he has become the most polarizing figure on this blog. And it’s the same, trivial regurgitation of content. Otherwise, he is never mentioned here aside from passing comments or when there is actually news on him.

  305. Vineyard Yankee May 11th, 2011 at 2:37 pm

    Erin May 11th, 2011 at 2:21 pm

    So where is the staff directory listed for the Lower Hudson Valley big wigs ? That way I can get busy putting my commission requests in writing.

  306. Jason Voorhees May 11th, 2011 at 2:40 pm

    It was actually Phil Hughes who stole Christmas, not the Grinch.

  307. stuckey99 May 11th, 2011 at 2:43 pm

    Nick,

    Yes, today would be a waste of time.

    Genuine apologies for the lateness. No snark. No BS. Been meaning to take care of this but haven’t, for reasons of no relevance to you, so I’ll spare you them.

    Will be done. This week.

  308. Erin May 11th, 2011 at 2:44 pm

    BryanHoch Yankees announce Gene Monahan will retire at the conclusion of the 2011 season.

  309. Erin May 11th, 2011 at 2:45 pm

    Vineyard Yankee May 11th, 2011 at 2:37 pm
    Erin May 11th, 2011 at 2:21 pm

    So where is the staff directory listed for the Lower Hudson Valley big wigs ? That way I can get busy putting my commission requests in writing.

    **********************
    Believe me, if I find out I’ll let you know!! ;)

  310. Bronx Jeers May 11th, 2011 at 2:45 pm

    G. Love

    I guess you’re safe for now but I won’t forget the fact that every time I see Swish strike out now the Love Boat theme plays in my head.

  311. Erin May 11th, 2011 at 2:45 pm

    Jason Voorhees May 11th, 2011 at 2:40 pm
    It was actually Phil Hughes who stole Christmas, not the Grinch.

    *************************

    :lol:

  312. Against All Odds May 11th, 2011 at 2:46 pm

    # Erin May 11th, 2011 at 2:44 pm

    BryanHoch Yankees announce Gene Monahan will retire at the conclusion of the 2011 season.

    —————————————–

    That sucks

  313. Erin May 11th, 2011 at 2:46 pm

    New Post: Monahan to retire after this season

    :arrow:

  314. Triple Short of a Cycle May 11th, 2011 at 2:46 pm

    Bronx Jeers,

    Strong Island in da house

  315. Nick in SF May 11th, 2011 at 2:47 pm

    No problem, stuckey, you still have a loooooong way to go to match Bret the Hitman’s consecutive no-payment streak. How long I can’t say, as it’s still active. :cry:


Sponsored by:
 

Search

    Advertisement

    Follow

    Mobile

    Read The LoHud Yankees Blog on the go by navigating to the blog on your smartphone or mobile device's browser. No apps or downloads are required.

Advertisement

Place an ad

Call (914) 694-3581