Jeter at DH, Swisher in right, Cervelli catching
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on May 18, 2011 
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Swish must be feeling better.
Regarding Jorgie catching again with any regularity, even 1x a week, it’s not going to happen. He was advised never to get behind the plate again by his doctors and NYY doctors due to concussions, if what was stated on here months ago was accurate, which I think it was.
Could it happen for an inning in an emergency, that’s anybody’s guess.
Here’s hoping Nunez has his fielding issues resolved.
The Yankees are obviously open to using Montero as a BUC and part time DH considering they spoke about him doing that in ST.
This one would have had the old GTLU players roundly stumped.
haha right you are Mell! I would never have guessed that line up!
Yes, I guess it’s about time to rest a few players after our one game winning “streak.”
LGY – Yet they didn’t excersize that option when they saw how his focus on catching was leaving his bat in the dust. They spoke about a lot of things that never came to fruition.
Mell May 18th, 2011 at 3:47 pm
This one would have had the old GTLU players roundly stumped.
*****************
Fact.
DHing Jeter is an admission that performance is irrelevant to lineup construction.
Erin-This was in the NY Daily News yesterday about Posada catching again:
According to Yankee sources, Posada was told by the team that in addition to his fulltime DH duties, he should also be prepared to catch an occasional game or in emergency situations.
But sources claim that when Posada was asked to catch in a game in the spring, he declined, citing headaches and concern over the concussion syndrome he suffered after taking a foul ball off the mask the previous September.
Monday, however, Posada adamantly denied he was ever asked to catch in a game this spring.
“Not at all. Not once. A hundred percent,” he said. “Not even close. They told me to go to the bullpen and stuff so I caught in the bullpen every once in a while, but they never asked me (to catch in a game).”
LGY – Yet they didn’t excersize that option when they saw how his focus on catching was leaving his bat in the dust. They spoke about a lot of things that never came to fruition.
—————-
Just because they didn’t implement that plan out of ST doesn’t mean they aren’t open to doing it. At that time this once in a blue moon lose the DH thing wasn’t a problem to them. You don’t build a roster based on emergency situations.
You say Montero has a future as a C on this team, but when would that happen? The Yankees are never going to hand him the starting job without prior big league experience.
I’d say as long as they can guarantee that he won’t take a foul tip to the head, they’ll let him catch.
In other words, it ain’t happening.
Hate having Jeter DH. Either play him in the field or give him the entire day off. Would be a great oppotunity to have Montero DH if he was up.
I’m not sure anyone thinks Montero can be a starting catcher. I doubt any team that would potentially trade for him would look at him to do anything more than exactly what we would need him to do now. Catch a day or two a week and HIT as a DH. If anything other teams would probably look to move him to 1B.
Thanks Yankee Trader. You have to wonder who these sources are. LOL
Derek Jeter as “designated HITTER.”
Can’t say the Yankees don’t have a sense of humor.
Cervelli + Swish = fail
And Peter Gammons on Posada:
If Jorge Posada doesn’t start hitting, Gammons can see the Yankees releasing him and calling up Jesus Montero, who is hitting .331/.363/.433 at Triple-A. In that case Gammons believes Posada would remain in the AL East, signing with the Orioles. Buck Showalter’s final season managing the Yankees coincided with Posada’s rookie year.
Without Montero on the roster Jeter may actually be their best option as a DH vs a LHP.
He is hitting .280 with an .801 OPS vs LHP.
Chris Dickerson would be a MUCH better option at DH, then Jeter.
This tram really pisses me off…why don’t they give Montero a chance? Why not try Nunez in RF??
Chris Dickerson would be a MUCH better option at DH, then Jeter.
—————
Dickerson cannot hit LHP at all.
UnKnown May 18th, 2011 at 3:54 pm
Hate having Jeter DH. Either play him in the field or give him the entire day off. Would be a great oppotunity to have Montero DH if he was up.
========================================
You got the wrong AAA guy in mind.
Jorge Vazquez should be this team’s DH… Today, tomorrow, and every other day they don’t have an option any better than Pusada or Captain Crap.
Heading into today’s game, Vazquez had 16 homers, 41 RBI’s and 97 total bases in 37 games! His avg. is .303 and his OPS is .971!
Yankee Trader,
and where would he play? Weiters is the full time catcher and Vladdy is the DH. Gammons is a moron
He is hitting .280 with an .801 OPS vs LHP.
————————————–
next question: How many of those are swinging bunts ?
So I guess the only way we see Montero is if Posada fails, according to Gammons? That sucks…
These are the type of “formula” lineups that drive me crazy. Gardner and Posada each coming off really good games but not in the game.
I say if a guy who is struggling has a good game get him back out there
Given the current construction of the roster, aside from Cervelli in there for Martin (who has caught 5 games in a row) this is actually their best lineup vs LHP.
The only change would potentially be Gardner instead of Nunez (with Gardner in LF, Jones DH, and Jeter at SS), but Nunez is a better option with the way he is swinging the bat.
Jorge Vazquez should be this team’s DH
============================
Major league pitching would own this guy.
In that case Gammons believes Posada would remain in the AL East, signing with the Orioles
**********************
as what, bench coach?
Triple-
Posada could be signed for the league minimum and be a bench player/coach for Showalter. Agree about Gammons!
“Dickerson cannot hit LHP at all”
Which is why he shoudn’t have been called up.
That Daily News article is crap.
Even Cashman was adamant that Jorge was going to be a full-time DH. And no way would Girardi put him behind the plate knowing the concussion history.
LGY – The Yankee DH role is a muddled mess until Jeter ARod Posada and Teixeira are all off the roster. I don’t see them employing a stud prospect in that spot where he could be traded for someone that fills an actual need on the team like a starter.
There are plenty of DH’type players that can be traded for midseason (I.E. Berkman last year) if Posada continues to be miserable heading into the trade deadline.
I didn’t say he has a future as a C on this team, I said he only has a future on this team as a C.
Gammons is a total clown just trying to kick the NYY when they’re “down”. As a rule, anything Gammons says you take the other side and you’re hitting around .750. It’s worked out for me just fine.
just asking…does Montero have more trade value playing in the minors ( if they decide to trade him later this season) or bringing him up and not being able to hit major league pitching then trying to trade him…
5% walk rate and 20% K rate, no… Vazquez would get eaten alive.
LGY – The Yankee DH role is a muddled mess until Jeter ARod Posada and Teixeira are all off the roster. I don’t see them employing a stud prospect in that spot where he could be traded for someone that fills an actual need on the team like a starter.
——————-
ARod is the only player of those 4 who will is even a long term option at DH. Jeter is only DHing because Jorge has sucked and Tex will be 35 when his contract expires. Why would he need to DH?
Looking at this team this season and assessing the minor league system of the Yankees, Montero’s bat is probably more of a need than a starter for this team.
How could you look at the production the Yankees are getting out of DH and say they couldn’t use a bat there?
joeman- He had more trade value last year, then before ST, then right after ST… every day they wait it drops as the myth of him catching in the majors fades away.
If your second scenario happened it would be a bubble bursting event, no one buys broken balloons
Vazquez would be like shelley duncan but worse. He could definitely club a few mistakes, but generally he’ll spend time chasing stuff out of the zone.
I think back to spring training where someone threw him 3 sliders like 5 feet away out of the zone in the other batters box and he chased all of them without hesitation.
The Yankee system is stocked with pitching.
Montero is the only impact bat remotely close to the majors.
The Yankees would be nuts to trade Montero after watching the offense this season.
If the Yankees can’t expect Teixeira to hold up at 1st base, a position where tons of old dudes play, they shouldn’t have signed him to the deal. I expect him to only get token DH days as ‘half days off’ in the future and never more than 10 in a year. He is the 1st baseman.
I have no trouble giving Vasquez a chance…. a lot of people on this site told me I was a dummy in 2008 for wanting the Yanks to trade for Nelson Cruz (before the Xavier Nady deal) because he was tearing up Triple-A.
Can’t imagine the Yanks releasing Jorge… no one wants it to end like that
If Tex needs to DH just move Montero to 1B.
Problem solved.
Irreverent Discourse May 18th, 2011 at 4:08 pm
joeman- He had more trade value last year, then before ST, then right after ST… every day they wait it drops as the myth of him catching in the majors fades away.
If your second scenario happened it would be a bubble bursting event, no one buys broken balloons
———————————
could it be thats why he still in the minors and will be there for a while
LGY – Because I look at the production of the entire lineup (which is needless to say still very productive with 6 players slumping), not just the weakest spot. Like I said above, if their woes come down to the DH hitting that means that 8 other AS caliber hitters are not doing their jobs in the lineup.
I wasn’t referring to full time options at DH, i was referring to all 3 of those guys (Jeter/Arod/Teix) getting older and needing DH off days. If each of them get one day off per 2 weeks, that only leaves 2/3 of the games in the season needing a “fulltime” DH… If your plan is for Montero to become a pro DH and only play 120 games, you’re wasting his value to the team in a trade.
If Tex needs to DH just move Montero to 1B. Problem solved.
Moving a guy that can’t play one position into another position he can’t play is solving problems?
Montero: DH, BUC, BU 1B.
He could be in the lineup everyday with those roles.
Britton is a lhp, so it’s not so bad having Jeter in there. It’s Jeter vs rhp that is the problem.
Moving a guy that can’t play one position into another position he can’t play is solving problems?
—————-
Montero can’t play 1B?
I wonder what their thinking is Montero on coming up. As long as it isn’t Francesa-esque, I can live with it more easily.
LGY – You can’t just put him on 1B and assume he can play it. he has officially played 0 (count them… zero) games at 1B in the minors.
SI_JonHeyman
Doubt the world will end with the subway series in progress. Just don’t see it
“Britton is a lhp, so it’s not so bad having Jeter in there”
His LD% v. LHP is 8.3 %
LGY – You can’t just put him on 1B and assume he can play it. he has officially played 0 (count them… zero) games at 1B in the minors.
–
All yankee catchers do work at 1B and if you think Montero is so stupid that he can’t learn a position that is basically standing on a bag and catching a ball… well I dunno what to tell you. Plenty of guys can learn a position in an offseason/in 1 season.
Bronx Jeers,
So your saying that the Yankee organization lied about Jorge catching?
Both Damon and Sheffield learned to play 1st in the middle of a season
LGY –You can’t just put him on 1B and assume he can play it. he has officially played 0 (count them… zero) games at 1B in the minors
—–
He takes grounders at first routinely.
Almost anyone can play 1B. It’s silly to think he couldn’t handle the easiest position on the field.
Rich in NJ May 18th, 2011 at 4:16 pm
“Britton is a lhp, so it’s not so bad having Jeter in there”
His LD% v. LHP is 8.3 %
—
Good god, the cherry picking on this board is getting tiresome.
Jeter has a .801 OPS vs lhp this year, .872 last year (in a down year).
May 21, 2011: Harold Camping’s calculations for the end of the world
Didnt Shelley Duncan win the MVP in the minors once? Igawa pitcher of the year? Lets just trade Vasques for Pujols already! Ill throw in a free pair of Igawa shades in the deal.
If Montero can’t bunt, he has no role on the 2011 Yankees. #baselessopinions
If Teixeira has taught us anything, it’s that 1B is a lot more than “standing on the bag”. I would not peg it as the easiest position on the field at all… just because you don’t have to make throws? If he could pick balls out of the dirt he’d be sticking as a catcher anyway
“Good god, the cherry picking on this board is getting tiresome.
Jeter has a .801 OPS vs lhp this year, .872 last year (in a down year).”
His LD% v. LHP was 18.4 % last season.
You’re lost.
If they don’t start getting more production from the DH spot, I say bring Vazquez up for a couple weeks and find out if he can hit major league pitching. At least then we’ll know. Hitting the way he is in AAA has to mean something.
“I wonder what their thinking is Montero on coming up. As long as it isn’t Francesa-esque, I can live with it more easily.”
I don’t think he is exclusively a trade chip like Mike suggested, but I also think Cash still has his eye on a big time starter.
He was offered for Lee three times (Indians trade deadline 09, Phillies offseason 09, SEA trade deadline ’10) and once for Halladay.
I don’t think he is untouchable for a big-time starter (King Felix, JJ, etc.). It also is dependent on who is making the final decision and if the Yankees are even interested in trying him at other positions or trading him while his value is as a C.
Dice-K may be out 2 months with UCL sprain and flexor mass strain.
Jeter is driving the ball less than last year somehow
In little league they moved me from C to 1b because I got caught with vaseline in my catchers mitt. I had read a book in the library about Gaylord Perry (I think it might have been his autobiography) and decided I would doctor the ball for the pitcher before throwing it back to him.
Compared to C, 1b was cake.
just because you don’t have to make throws?
========
Those needed throws always seemed to find Giambi. There was no one better at starting a double play. Golden T was smooth.
We won’t know if he’s Shelly Duncan or Nelson Cruz until we bring him up. He’d be playing at Posada’s expense. Who has been the worst everyday major league hitter this year. I can’t see the harm in a callup. If he’s horrendous for two weeks, he can go back down and it’s what we have been getting anyway. He wouldn’t be taking ABs from anyone who is currently producing.
Rich in NJ May 18th, 2011 at 4:23 pm
“Good god, the cherry picking on this board is getting tiresome.
Jeter has a .801 OPS vs lhp this year, .872 last year (in a down year).”
His LD% v. LHP was 18.4 % last season.
You’re lost.
—
Yes, and he *still* has an .801 OPS. OPS is down because LD% is down, but it’s still good.
Who would you rather play there? Oh-for-infinity-Jorge? The lefthanded callup that can’t hit lefties? Jones and Nunez are already in the lineup. Martin needs a full rest. Gardner has a .563 OPS vs lhp so far this year.
In little league they moved me from C to 1b because I got caught with vaseline in my catchers mitt.
=========
lol. Im sure it was much easier to disquise wearing a first basemans glove Glove. Did you call a timeout after every batter or did you just have the pitcher throw to first with or without anyone on?
In little league they moved me from C to 1b because I got caught with vaseline in my catchers mitt. I had read a book in the library about Gaylord Perry (I think it might have been his autobiography) and decided I would doctor the ball for the pitcher before throwing it back to him.
–
Hilarious
Every effort is being made to get Montero to MLB as a catcher…. lets not forget Mike Piazza was a pretty crappy defensive catcher… V-Mart was, until this year a great hitting lousy defensive catcher… Mike Stanley was no gold glover
An excellent offensive catcher who is serviceable behind the plate is okay by me. Until teams start running a whole lot more anyway.
We all want Bench, Mauer, Pudge, Munson et al in their prime, but there’s a reason those guys are/were so special
“Yes, and he *still* has an .801 OPS. OPS is down because LD% is down, but it’s still good.”
It’s luck. Getting hits on a sustainable basis requires hitting LD with some degree of consistency.
“Who would you rather play there? Oh-for-infinity-Jorge? The lefthanded callup that can’t hit lefties? Jones and Nunez are already in the lineup. Martin needs a full rest. Gardner has a .563 OPS vs lhp so far this year.”
Montero. Since he’s not up, it was dumb to call up Dickerson.
If Jeter’s struggles continue while the team has trouble scoring runs, he has to be moved way down in the order.
Facts have to matter at some point.
If Teixeira has taught us anything, it’s that 1B is a lot more than “standing on the bag”. I would not peg it as the easiest position on the field at all… just because you don’t have to make throws? If he could pick balls out of the dirt he’d be sticking as a catcher anyway
–
What do you think is an easier position to play than 1st? I am really curious. Can’t say DH either. And Montero has no trouble with hand eye coordination / his arm. Its all in his leg based agility, which you don’t need picking throws out at 1st since you can setup early and then its all about the hand eye coordination. And Jesus can throw.
Really just asinine to suggest that someone can’t play 1st.
Alfredo Aceves moves into the #4 spot with Dice & Lackey out
Jerkface,
I also had my bat confiscated from me in Little League because it was 1 inch too long and few ounces too heavy.
My Mother had to be restrained from the umpire and opposing coach for that one since we spent a small fortune on the aluminum bat at Modell’s for me to use and I had been using it all season without a problem.
Needless to say, that was my last year of little league.
Thrown out of Little League for listening to the Vaselines????? That’s awful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0qIARknhMg
G Love,
Were you juicing in Little League too?
Glove,
The only thing missing is the metal cleats.
You must have been the only kid accept for Almonte to have his mug posted in every little league field in the district.
G. Love May 18th, 2011 at 4:32 pm
Needless to say, that was my last year of little league.
*********************
I can’t imagine why.
LGY,
If I could have gotten my hands on the stuff, I probably would have been. My choice of PED in those days was shoving an entire package of Big League Chew into my mouth.
Rich in NJ May 18th, 2011 at 4:30 pm
“Yes, and he *still* has an .801 OPS. OPS is down because LD% is down, but it’s still good.”
It’s luck. Getting hits on a sustainable basis requires hitting LD with some degree of consistency.
“Who would you rather play there? Oh-for-infinity-Jorge? The lefthanded callup that can’t hit lefties? Jones and Nunez are already in the lineup. Martin needs a full rest. Gardner has a .563 OPS vs lhp so far this year.”
Montero. Since he’s not up, it was dumb to call up Dickerson.
If Jeter’s struggles continue while the team has trouble scoring runs, he has to be moved way down in the order.
Facts have to matter at some point.
—
Montero is not on the team. I’d like him to be on the team, but he is not.
Jeter needs to move down vs rhp, I agree. But they are not facing a rhp.
Jeter killed lhp last year, during a crappy year overall. I don’t agree that a drop in LD% means everything he has done vs lhp has been luck.
Nick in SF,
Kurt Cobain turned me on to them. Great band
Unfortunately, the Red Sox probably just got better with Lackey and Matsuzaka on the DL
jerkface – I would say 3B, with less bag foot-work and all of your throws are in front of you… is easier than 1B. Not by much, just my opinion.
I didn’t say he can’t play 1B, you could play 1B. Don’t put words in my mouth. I said just throwing him out there and expecting success is silly. Taking him from one defensive position he is deficient in and moving him to another to me does not solve problems. better off trading him to someone that would still use him as a catcher before it gets to that point.
Yankees won’t bring Montero up for two reasons:
1) With Martin & Cevelli healthy they don’t think he will get enough reps behind the plate to continue his development there which is where he brings the most value to the organization. They’d rather he catch everyday in AAA & continue to develop as a catcher.
2) If you bring him up now & he does not hit & has trouble behind the plate, then you diminish his trade value. Cashman still thinks he can pull King Felix out of Seattle with the right package at midseason. And that package will include Montero.
Taking him from one defensive position he is deficient in and moving him to another to me does not solve problems.
–
Uh yea thats what moving positions does, solves problems. Also in this scenario its at a point where Tex needs to DH. In my mind, Montero is backup C/DH/1B until Tex is off the books at which point Montero is moved to 1st permanently (he will be 26-27 when Tex is done)
but can Montero hit major league pitching…maybe the Yankees don’t want other major league teams know if he can or can’t…thinking if he hit well in ST he would have made the roster
“Montero is not on the team.”
What?
“Jeter needs to move down vs rhp, I agree. But they are not facing a rhp.”
Jeter killed lhp last year, during a crappy year overall. I don’t agree that a drop in LD% means everything he has done vs lhp has been luck.”
Really? So he has some special ability that enables his GB to find holes?
There was a reason he killed LHP last season, and I have already pointed it out.
Montero at 1B ( right now ) = Jeter having 3 more errors a week.
YES May 18th, 2011 at 4:39 pm
2) If you bring him up now & he does not hit & has trouble behind the plate, then you diminish his trade value. Cashman still thinks he can pull King Felix out of Seattle with the right package at midseason. And that package will include Montero.
———————————————–
YO…what I’m saying
No one is saying throw Montero at 1st and expect success. You’re confusing your own argument.
Nick,
Currently listening to Explosions In The Sky & God Is An Astronaut pretty much non-stop these days. You know them?
“If you bring him up now & he does not hit & has trouble behind the plate, then you diminish his trade value”
Good.
jerkface – I would say 3B, with less bag foot-work and all of your throws are in front of you… is easier than 1B. Not by much, just my opinion.
——————-
Then why do teams routinely put their least athletic and older players at 1B?
Our own 1B Mark Teixiera was moved to 1B, because he couldn’t handle 3B!
Montero does not need to be Tex at 1B.
He just needs to be competent which is not a lot to ask.
Well it lookin like a straight platoon at DH…..free Montero!
Ledger_Yankees A-Rod says he’ll have his hip checked out at some point. There had been some concern it wasn’t quite right. Wants to be proactive.
I do think they are trying to preserve Montero’s trade value just in case something ridiculous becomes available this season trade wise.
If we trade away a Frank Thomas/Cabrera type bat, the team will regret it for many years.
Rich in NJ May 18th, 2011 at 4:40 pm
“Montero is not on the team.”
What?
“Jeter needs to move down vs rhp, I agree. But they are not facing a rhp.”
Jeter killed lhp last year, during a crappy year overall. I don’t agree that a drop in LD% means everything he has done vs lhp has been luck.”
Really? So he has some special ability that enables his GB to find holes?
There was a reason he killed LHP last season, and I have already pointed it out.
—
Montero is not on the team. He is not on the New York Yankees and eligible to hit in the lineup. What part of this do you not understand?
And yes, believe it or not, some ground balls do get through for hits in major league baseball. You should watch the game today you will probably see it happen.
Jeter the Desiginated out
Nunez the throwing error
Cervelli, the passed ball.
“Montero is not on the team. He is not on the New York Yankees and eligible to hit in the lineup. What part of this do you not understand?”
What I do understand is saracasm.
“And yes, believe it or not, some ground balls do get through for hits in major league baseball. You should watch the game today you will probably see it happen.”
Again, you’re lost.
jerkface – If you are not expecting success, why put him at first at all? Just to shoehorn him into the lineup for the next 4 years? That’s just a poor use of resources when he could be moved for aplayer that can help multiple aspects (a position that’s actually empty) or alrger aspects (a starter) of the game.
Maximizing value does not involve anything but Montero playing catcher long term, or trading him.
The DH role is NOT something the Yankees of all teams are worried about filling for the next few years. When your pitching staff is consisting of Freddy Garcia and Bartolo Colon, and there is not a single FA starter worth signing next season… you have much larger problems to solve than trying to unnecessarily get some kid into the lineup.
get me King & Gutierrez back and start with Montero and Gardner +
I also got in trouble during little league for a Vaseline based infraction.
———————————————————————————————————-
“So your saying that the Yankee organization lied about Jorge catching?”
I think they “misremembered”
G love,
I wrote this morning that I thought one factor (probably not the biggest) in keeping Montero down was just in case Seattle changes their mind on Felix.
Rich,
Pretty small sample for Jeter against LHP this year…..probably too small for LD% to mean a lot….he still hits them pretty well.
jerkface – If you are not expecting success, why put him at first at all? Just to shoehorn him into the lineup for the next 4 years? That’s just a poor use of resources when he could be moved for aplayer that can help multiple aspects (a position that’s actually empty) or alrger aspects (a starter) of the game.
Maximizing value does not involve anything but Montero playing catcher long term, or trading him.
–
You’re misunderstanding, its not about dropping Montero into 1st base *right now* and expecting success. You’re undervaluing a premium bat regardless of position. You’ve also misunderstood the initial argument which is that if Tex is forced to Dh Montero can take over 1st which is a great way to keep him around. Until that time he should backup catch and DH and start putting in time at 1st.
There is no one you can trade Montero for *right now* that is going to help this team more than a premium bat coming into his own.
“The DH role is NOT something the Yankees of all teams are worried about filling for the next few years. When your pitching staff is consisting of Freddy Garcia and Bartolo Colon, and there is not a single FA starter worth signing next season… you have much larger problems to solve than trying to unnecessarily get some kid into the lineup.”
—————
The Yankees are on pace to score 45 less runs than last season and 101 less runs than in 2009.
They are currently getting .184/.275/.369 out of the DH spot.
How is fitting the best hitter in the minors into their lineup unnecessary?
Its not like the Yankees get bonus points for keeping Montero at catcher. The idea is to have him hit for the team, regardless of where it takes place.
blake
It’s not too small to conclude that his OPS v. LHP is largely a function of luck.
And I used conditional language:
“If Jeter’s struggles continue while the team has trouble scoring runs, he has to be moved way down in the order.”
I have no problem with him playing SS. But with this team struggling and having shown a willingness to alienate Posada, I don’t think anyone is sacrosanct.
So sure, if he improves, I’d reassess, but right now, his lack of offense is hurting the team, and is LD% is a red flag that it may be an enduring problem.
You’re not trading Montero for an equal or better bat that can play another position. There are no aces to trade for that don’t cost a ton of money anyways.
2009 was a complete outlier of runs scored when compared to the rest of the league. You know that.
Runs per game across the league have been trending down steadily for like 5 years.
The Yankees employ the best hitting fielders in baseball, their 8 position players pound for pound should beat anyone. Who bats as the 9th best hitter on the team is and for years has been largely irrelevant to this team.
“get me King & Gutierrez back and start with Montero and Gardner +”
Montero, Banuelos, Stoneburner, Heathcott, and Swisher or Gardner for King Felix and Gutierrez
.261 .316 .400 .716?? Gutz? Pass
“Montero, Banuelos, Stoneburner, Heathcott, and Swisher or Gardner for King Felix and Gutierrez”
So if the offense continues to struggle, how do you plan on fixing it after making that trade?
No question defense at 1B is under appreciated, but 3B is MUCH more difficult
# Rich in NJ May 18th, 2011 at 5:03 pm
“Montero, Banuelos, Stoneburner, Heathcott, and Swisher or Gardner for King Felix and Gutierrez”
So if the offense continues to struggle, how do you plan on fixing it after making that trade?
———————————————
how they got a few of their hitters FA
Being 4th in the league in runs is not struggling.
The SF Giants were 17th in the league in runs scored last year, yet they managed to somehow win a World Series… by scoring UNDER 700 RUNS.
Stop telling us that the offense needs to pick it up, it’s just not true. Pitching is way more important to the ultimate goal.
2009 was a complete outlier of runs scored when compared to the rest of the league. You know that.
Runs per game across the league have been trending down steadily for like 5 years.
The Yankees employ the best hitting fielders in baseball, their 8 position players pound for pound should beat anyone. Who bats as the 9th best hitter on the team is and for years has been largely irrelevant to this team.
———————
How was 2009 an outlier? 7 teams scored over 800 runs in 2009.
The idea for keeping Montero is not that he would be the 9th best hitter on this team. Look at the construction of the team. Montero is a bat you build around as Jeter, Alex, and Tex continue to get older.
Montero is someone you look at and say that he could be one of their best bats in the future.
The Yankees should build their offense around Cano and Montero.
how they got a few of their hitters FA
–
Everytime you go after a FA hitter you’re basically consigning the team to keeping that hitter for 5+ years.
Stop telling us that the offense needs to pick it up, it’s just not true. Pitching is way more important to the ultimate goal.
————————
Fallacy.
“how they got a few of their hitters FA”
So write off this season after trading all their best prospects and then reload after the season?
I don’t like it, but OK, which ones? (and be cognizant of their existing payroll obligations and their apparent $200m budget)
People overrate defense. They have a great defensive catcher this year and we are barely a .500 team.
They won a championship in 09 with a dreadful Posada and got to 2 games of the WS with him there. They would have won a championship with the likes of Sheffield/Giambi/Matsui/Bernie in the field if MO gets a save in 04. Heck, they would have won a couple of chips if they had good pitching.
If Montero’s ceiling defensively is the 2009-2010 Posada, that is fine. Guy doesn’t have to be Pudge in his prime.
LGY – Results.
The best bats that are hitting the market are all 1B types
G. Love: not well, but sounds familiar.
All the young outfielders and premium infielders are getting locked up long term.
Yankee Trader May 18th, 2011 at 3:57 pm
And Peter Gammons on Posada:
If Jorge Posada doesn’t start hitting, Gammons can see the Yankees releasing him and calling up Jesus Montero, who is hitting .331/.363/.433 at Triple-A. In that case Gammons believes Posada would remain in the AL East, signing with the Orioles. Buck Showalter’s final season managing the Yankees coincided with Posada’s rookie year.
———-
That’s the type of BS only a Red Sox fan would suggest. I wouldn’t be offended if the Yankees cut Jorge and he went elsewhere, but I simply don’t believe he’d do it. I think he’d retire first rather than relocating for half a season and being further away from family and friends. Stupid suggestion.
Help me out here. Under what scenario is Montero playing 1B and Tex DH’ing? Other than a game or two? That can’t happen until such time as ARod will also have to be the DH, can it?
s you know, teams “control” players for six major-league seasons. Six-plus, actually. But we’ll say six, just to keep things simple. If a starting pitcher is reasonably healthy and reasonably effective in a season he’ll probably win at least 10 games. Six seasons times 10 wins equals 60, but we’ll make it even easier on them and assume that a club has developed a winning pitcher if he graduates from the farm system — of the franchise that drafted or signed him as an amateur — and wins at least 50 games for the franchise.
Oh, there’s one more reason for these criteria … ESPN.com’s David Schoenfield has already published the research and it’s sort of shocking.
How many 50-game winners — again, for them — have the Red Sox developed in the last 25 years?
One. Jon Lester.
How many 50-game winners have the Tigers developed in the last 30 years?
Two. Justin Verlander and Mike Henneman. And Henneman was a relief pitcher (in the days when relief pitchers might get lots of decisions).
How many 50-game winners have the Twins — the Twins — developed in the last 20 years?
Two. Scott Baker and Brad Radke.
The Rays have developed one 50-game winner (for them): James Shields.
The Marlins have never developed a 50-game winner. Josh Johnson who signed with the Marlins nine years ago, has won 48 games for the franchise and will be the first.
http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/5.....oyals-news
Help me out here. Under what scenario is Montero playing 1B and Tex DH’ing? Other than a game or two? That can’t happen until such time as ARod will also have to be the DH, can it?
–
In the mythical scenario where Tex becomes a full time DH by the end of his contract, which won’t happen because if Giambi can play first base at age 35, so can Tex.
Mell May 18th, 2011 at 4:01 pm
Jorge Vazquez should be this team’s DH
============================
Major league pitching would own this guy.
===================================
Based on what?
“So write off this season after trading all their best prospects and then reload after the season?”
Not necessarily. If you think they are a playoff team now, how would that percentage decrease by adding King Felix to the roster and subbing Swisher with Gutierrez? They would not be punting this year because they would not have lost any assets from the big league team to make the trade, yet added a potentially monumental one and have positioned themselves much better for a short series.
As far as fixing the offense in the winter… they would have to be willing to go over the 200 million limit to sign a Fielder or someone to DH. Or perhaps dangle some combination of Betances/Brackman/Nova/Hughes plus guys like Romine and the B-level pitchers to get back a good young bat. Then hope Sanchez in a couple of years is ready.
It’s certainly do-able if Cash is creative enough. The jewel of this deal is having a rotation headlined by CC and Felix.
given montero’s height, it wouldn’t have been bad idea to have had him play first base years ago, but you can’t just throw him out there now and learn on the job at the mlb level.
anyone who thinks anyone can just pick up first base in no time at all (unless they were already an infielder) is just plain wrong.
it’s a silly assumption.
the yankees are at some point going to simply have to roll the dice and see what they have with montero as the back up catcher and let him catch a couple of games a week and dh 3-4 games.
the decision will probably be triggered by an injury, and it’ll probably happen sooner than later.
LGY – Results.
————–
Exactly my point
but you can’t just throw him out there now and learn on the job at the mlb level.
–
No one has suggested this. I am convinced many people here can’t read.
Gardner is worth more than Swisher in a trade because of the $$$
By the end of Tex’s contract ARod will be the full time DH. The notion that Tex will ever be the DH is as Face said mythical.
Gutz is hitting as poorly as anyone this year. I love when people want to trade for those guys. He would be an upgrade defensively but how much stuck in RF?
LGY – Here ya go…
Year – Team – Runs place – Runs
2010 – SFG – 17th – 697
2009 – NYY – 1st – 915
2008 – PHI – 9th – 799
2007 – BOS – 4th – 867
2006 – STL – 14th – 781
2005 – CHW – 13th – 741
2004 – BOS – 1st – 949
2003 – FLA – 17th – 751
2002 – ANA – 4th – 851
2001 – ARI – 7th – 818
2000 – NYY – 10th – 871
Tell me again that offense is a more consistant way of winning championships
DocTodd May 18th, 2011 at 3:59 pm
So I guess the only way we see Montero is if Posada fails, according to Gammons?
=============================================
If that were true, Montero would already be here.
The way I see it, there has to be a reason Montero’s not here. Assuming the Yanks aren’t perverse, the only reason that makes sense to me is that the Yanks don’t think he’s ready.
Larry – Based on the numbers that I posted that you ignored in your reply. it’s OK we know you don’t deal in facts… MY APOLOGIES.
I really doubt Cashman would give up more than one premium prospect in any trade. I severely doubt he’ll give up any, in fact. I think he’d rather see the value of his young prospects play out longer. Cashman really has focused his strategy on value as of late, save for big free agents. There’s too much monetary value in Montero, Nova, and the Bs to give up.
“Tell me again that offense is a more consistant way of winning championships”
—————
Sure.
World Series Winners Pitching/Hitting Ranks (By Team ERA and Runs Scored)
2010: Giants: 1/17
2009: Yankees: 12/1
2008: Phillies: 6/8
2007: Sox: 2/4
2006: Cardinals: 16/22
2005: White Sox: 4/13
2004: Red Sox: 11/1
2003: Marlins: 10/17
2002: Angels: 4/4
2001: DBacks: 4/7
2000: Yankees: 16/10
The way I see it, there has to be a reason Montero’s not here. Assuming the Yanks aren’t perverse, the only reason that makes sense to me is that the Yanks don’t think he’s ready.
–
Early in the season and the Yankees defer to veterans in all things.
# Wave Your Hat May 18th, 2011 at 5:20 pm
The way I see it, there has to be a reason Montero’s not here. Assuming the Yanks aren’t perverse, the only reason that makes sense to me is that the Yanks don’t think he’s ready.
—————————————–
and keeping his value right where it is
randy l. May 18th, 2011 at 5:16 pm
given montero’s height, it wouldn’t have been bad idea to have had him play first base years ago, but you can’t just throw him out there now and learn on the job at the mlb level.
anyone who thinks anyone can just pick up first base in no time at all (unless they were already an infielder) is just plain wrong.
———————-
Randy, stop being so logical, there has to be some kind of statistic on a Sabremetrics blog somewhere that disproves that
Irreverent Discourse May 18th, 2011 at 5:21 pm
Larry – Based on the numbers that I posted that you ignored in your reply. it’s OK we know you don’t deal in facts… MY APOLOGIES.
=========================================
I didn’t see the numbers/post you’re referring to. My apologies for not combing through every single one of the 150 replies.
Try being less self-involved.
This idea that pitching is so much more important than hitting in order to win a WS is a myth.
Teams that can hit AND pitch win WS.
Outliers are the teams that are largely predicated on just pitching OR hitting.
The same people who are now saying Montero could play first base with no training are the ones who complained about Giambi’s defense! The very same!
Randy, stop being so logical, there has to be some kind of statistic on a Sabremetrics blog somewhere that disproves that
–
Yea, you go, girls! Win the debate that no one was arguing!
Cardinals, worst WS team ever?
Wave Your Hat May 18th, 2011 at 5:20 pm
The way I see it, there has to be a reason Montero’s not here. Assuming the Yanks aren’t perverse, the only reason that makes sense to me is that the Yanks don’t think he’s ready.
—————
I think they’re letting him season, while mainly awaiting on the final verdict for Posada and/or Cervelli. Montero is direct competition with those two guys. The Yankees want to make sure that Montero is a better fit than those two before making a decision, I would bet.
If Posada turns it around, and Cervelli proves to be solid more than not, Montero could stay down for a while. In a month or so, Posada and Cervelli don’t seem viable, Montero will be up. That’s my take, at least.
“Early in the season and the Yankees defer to veterans in all things.”
Usually that would be my line but I’m not buying it due to the current standings crisis. I think Montero would be the DH now if the Yanks thought he was ready.
LGY – Did you even read the numbers you just posted? so in the last 11 years the average ranks for those stats are… 7.8 for pitching, 9.4 for hitting. 6/11 teams had better pitching ranks than hitting. 4 of the 11 teams were int he top 5 in runs scored.
Yeah, you’re so wrong it’s not even funny.
LGY May 18th, 2011 at 5:23 pm
This idea that pitching is so much more important than hitting in order to win a WS is a myth.
Teams that can hit AND pitch win WS.
Outliers are the teams that are largely predicated on just pitching OR hitting.
==========================================
The Texas Rangers could “pitch AND hit,” and they had a FAR better lineup/offense than San Fran. We all know what happened in that WS and we all know why.
Jerkface May 18th, 2011 at 4:30 pm
What do you think is an easier position to play than 1st? I am really curious. Can’t say DH either. And Montero has no trouble with hand eye coordination / his arm. Its all in his leg based agility, which you don’t need picking throws out at 1st since you can setup early and then its all about the hand eye coordination. And Jesus can throw.
Really just asinine to suggest that someone can’t play 1st.
———————-
truly spoken like someone who has never picked up a fielder’s glove in his entire life and thinks he knows everything there is to know about baseball.
The Texas Rangers could “pitch AND hit,” and they had a FAR better lineup/offense than San Fran. We all know what happened in that WS and we all know why.
——————
Feel free to ignore the word outlier.
We all know what happened in that WS and we all know why.
–
The Giants scored 5 runs a game and hit a bunch of HRs?
“No one has suggested this. I am convinced many people here can’t read.”
what a coincidence , i’m convinced that many people here haven’t ever been a catcher, ever played first base, or ever played third base because a lot of these ideas make very little sense.
Jerkface May 18th, 2011 at 5:24 pm
Cardinals, worst WS team ever?
====================================
Think the 1960 Pittsburgh Prirates would give ‘em a run for their money.
what a coincidence , i’m convinced that many people here haven’t ever been a catcher, ever played first base, or ever played third base because a lot of these ideas make very little sense.
–
I pitched and played second
truly spoken like someone who has never picked up a fielder’s glove in his entire life and thinks he knows everything there is to know about baseball.
–
Tell me more about how 1st base isn’t the easiest fielding position.
LGY – Did you even read the numbers you just posted? so in the last 11 years the average ranks for those stats are… 7.8 for pitching, 9.4 for hitting. 6/11 teams had better pitching ranks than hitting. 4 of the 11 teams were int he top 5 in runs scored.
Yeah, you’re so wrong it’s not even funny.
—————-
Um… What?
7.8 and 9.4 is a huge difference that pitching is “way more important”???
# randy l. May 18th, 2011 at 5:26 pm
“No one has suggested this. I am convinced many people here can’t read.”
what a coincidence , i’m convinced that many people here haven’t ever been a catcher, ever played first base, or ever played third base because a lot of these ideas make very little sense.
——————————-
I played every position including pitcher..never had a game day off…
BTW..I played them well
LGY – I didn’t say more important, I said more consistent.
OK, I said important… damnit.
Jerkface May 18th, 2011 at 5:26 pm
We all know what happened in that WS and we all know why.
–
The Giants scored 5 runs a game and hit a bunch of HRs?
=========================================
San Fran scored 4 runs or less in three of the five games, including their last two wins, both of which came in one of the most hitter-friendly parks in baseball history.
anyone know if it’s raining in Baltimore?
# dtaylor1923 May 18th, 2011 at 5:30 pm
anyone know if it’s raining in Baltimore?
———————
flooding here in CT
San Fran scored 4 runs or less in three of the five games, including their last two wins, both of which came in one of the most hitter-friendly parks in baseball history.
–
Scored 29 runs in the series, but you should know that offenses which average 5 runs a game don’t actually score 5 runs every game.
I played SS/CF and pitched… pretty sure we’re all pretty qualified to talk about fielding randy.
I still believe 2B is easier. Picking throws from the infield, pickoff throws, holding runners… throwing up the field at a runners back towards 2B… all major PITA at 1B.
3B is easy, the ball is either hit at you at 100mph or bunted at 5mph, then you throw it to one of 2 places. so hard.
The way I see it, there has to be a reason Montero’s not here. Assuming the Yanks aren’t perverse, the only reason that makes sense to me is that the Yanks don’t think he’s ready.
————
Made another error last night. 2 more passed balls.
Guy went 0-4 today also.
He hits a late inning HR last week and the offense is struggling, so naturally, the fans want the team to abandoned his development curve and make him pinch hit 4 times a game at the ML level.
Guy is a disaster behind the plate, and the BUC should be a slick fielder.
Plus, why ruin his potential trade value by exposing him at the ML level?
There are a number of reasons why he hasn’t been called up. If A-Rod/Cano/Tex/Swish/Jeter etc. don’t hit, the team is in deep trouble anyway. They don’t need to bring up a guy with a .800 OPS and defensive liability in AAA to save the offense. That is what the big boys are paid to do.
3B… goddamnit, I’m going home.
# dtaylor1923 May 18th, 2011 at 5:30 pm
anyone know if it’s raining in Baltimore?
here you go
http://www.intellicast.com/Local/WxMapFull.aspx
I spoke to someone on the phone down in DC who said the storm had passed through. I think they’ll play.
Is randy ignoring all the outfielders and catchers who have transitioned to 1B in his argument with invisible posters on here??
If Mike Napoli can play first, Jesus Montero can play first.
3B is easy, the ball is either hit at you at 100mph or bunted at 5mph, then you throw it to one of 2 places. so hard.
———————————
if your good at hand ball you’ll be good at 3rd….
How many players have been moved FROM 1B to other positions because they couldn’t handle 1B?
How many players have been moved TO 1B because they couldn’t handle other positions?
We can’t get in this debate with Randy, he has alot of experience defending the bullpen from rogue hotdog wrappers.
I’m sure Montero could learn to play first passably. However, it won’t be as a Yankee.
“Is randy ignoring all the outfielders and catchers who have transitioned to 1B in his argument with invisible posters on here??”
Impulse control.
I’m sure Montero could learn to play first passably. However, it won’t be as a Yankee.
–
If they keep him long enough I bet he does.
“If they keep him long enough I bet he does.”
No way Face, ARod has got DH locked up 2014-2017.
any Andy sightings yet
No way Face, ARod has got DH locked up 2014-2017.
–
Montero will be the Yankee 1st baseman after Tex. He’ll be 27.
“any Andy sightings yet”
probably wants to stay out of this trainwreck
Jerkface May 18th, 2011 at 5:32 pm
San Fran scored 4 runs or less in three of the five games, including their last two wins, both of which came in one of the most hitter-friendly parks in baseball history.
–
Scored 29 runs in the series, but you should know that offenses which average 5 runs a game don’t actually score 5 runs every game.
===========================================
Right…
And when San Fran scored 4 runs and 3 runs in their last two games, they won BOTH of those contests because…
????
# Abomb82 May 18th, 2011 at 5:40 pm
“any Andy sightings yet”
probably wants to stay out of this trainwreck
—————————–
could be right
“Montero will be the Yankee 1st baseman after Tex. He’ll be 27.”
What will he be doing in the meantime?
# Wave Your Hat May 18th, 2011 at 5:40 pm
“Montero will be the Yankee 1st baseman after Tex. He’ll be 27.”
What will he be doing in the meantime?
——————————————–
playing in the minors
And when San Fran scored 4 runs and 3 runs in their last two games, they won BOTH of those contests because…
–
Because they hit some big HRs.
What will he be doing in the meantime?
–
Should be up here as BUC and DH and putting in work to be able to backup 1st to increase his versatility.
You know what talking about Montero at 1st is like? It’s like talking about marrying someone after only the first date.
You know what talking about Montero at 1st is like? It’s like talking about marrying someone after only the first date.
–
Montero is an exciting prospect.
Sure, that date could have been great. It’s still only the first date haha.
If Jesus Montero has an extensive career with the New York Yankees, it will be despite Brian Cashman’s best efforts…
Cashman has been attempting to deal Montero for a pitcher (granted, very GOOD pitchers) for the better part of at least the last three years.
Moreover, New York has been doing their best to convince people that Montero’s defense has really improved when it clearly has not.
Read a Tweet from a national baseball writer back in the spring (wish I could remember who it was so I could give him credit for it), who said: “If Montero had improved defensively half as often as the Yankees claimed he has, he’d be Johnny Bench by now.”
# Jerkface May 18th, 2011 at 5:44 pm
You know what talking about Montero at 1st is like? It’s like talking about marrying someone after only the first date.
–
Montero is an exciting prospect.
——————————————-
just what he is..a prospect
“Should be up here as BUC and DH and putting in work to be able to backup 1st to increase his versatility.”
Got to run, but I don’t see it. Tex’s last year is 2016. ARod will be the DH in 2015 and 2016 IMO, maybe sooner. No place for Montero in that scenario. Montero has to catch, or otherwise be the DH in the short run and either be the catcher or be traded in the long run.
“Tell me more about how 1st base isn’t the easiest fielding position.”
it isn’t an easy position to do well.
a bad first baseman creates a lot of other infielders errors and lets a lot of hits go by that aren’t counted errors because he doesn’t get close to them. a bad first baseman also doesn’t initiate double plays.
pitchers don’t want to use thier good pick off move because they can pick off the bad first baseman. the bad first baseman doesn’t handle cut of throws well or charge bunts well.. and then there’s those pesky foul pop ups.
if a player can track fly balls, left field is pretty easy.
if a player can track fly balls, left field is pretty easy.
–
You also need the speed to get to the balls, which automatically disqualifies many people. Its why 1st is listed as ‘easiest’ on the defensive spectrum, right next to LF.
Less types of players can play LF than can play 1st base.
Got to run, but I don’t see it. Tex’s last year is 2016. ARod will be the DH in 2015 and 2016 IMO, maybe sooner. No place for Montero in that scenario. Montero has to catch, or otherwise be the DH in the short run and either be the catcher or be traded in the long run.
–
You don’t see Montero splitting time at catcher and DH until 2015???? We’re talking about 4 years. Maybe Jesus can catch full time by then.
randy – I was originally going to go with LF being the easiest position, but I figured that was a tougher sell than 3B…
LGY – Just because you can hide sluggers totally devoid of fielding skills at 1B doesn’t make it the easiest position to play. Most guys move their as they get older because it requires the least range of any position on the field. Not because its easier.
Not all moves are created equal. Pujols didn’t move to 1B because he couldn’t play outfield, or because 1B was easier… he moved to 1B because his elbow was going to fall off if he kept throwing the ball.
YankeesNmore May 18th, 2011 at 5:45 pm
If Jesus Montero has an extensive career with the New York Yankees, it will be despite Brian Cashman’s best efforts…
———————-
I’d refute that. I think most GMs would shop their best prospects just to test the waters. Cashman saw some big pitchers on the market and made some offers, but nothing came of it. Hardly in spite of Cashman, it’s not like he’s not trying to dump the guy or anything. He just appreciates the value that his prospect commands.
If they could throw, they would move to 3rd. Honestly I don’t know why they stick guys at 1B that can’t field, it’s a pretty vital spot on the field.
“How many players have been moved FROM 1B to other positions because they couldn’t handle 1B?
How many players have been moved TO 1B because they couldn’t handle other positions?”
at no point does it make sense to have a bad first baseman play for the new york yankees .
the yankees have the resources to get both a good fielding and a good hitting first baseman.
if montero is simply an elite bat let him just hit.
but i think he can catch.
why don’t we see what he does in the position that he’s been playing for his whole life first before we talk about moving him.
Here’s something I was thinking about earlier today that some might find interesting. Would like to have as many peoples opinions on this as possible…
What do you believe are the odds that Jorge Posada will still be on the Yankees’ roster on:
A) June 1 –
B) July 1 –
C) August 1 –
D) September 1 –
E) October 1 –
???????????????????????????????
For me:
A) 90%
B) 65%
C) 40%
D) 10%
E) 10%
LGY – Just because you can hide sluggers totally devoid of fielding skills at 1B doesn’t make it the easiest position to play. Most guys move their as they get older because it requires the least range of any position on the field. Not because its easier.
——————-
Range being the most important tool for every fielder outside of catcher, right?
at no point does it make sense to have a bad first baseman play for the new york yankees .
the yankees have the resources to get both a good fielding and a good hitting first baseman.
if montero is simply an elite bat let him just hit.
but i think he can catch.
why don’t we see what he does in the position that he’s been playing for his whole life first before we talk about moving him.
–
Why do you assume he is going to be a good catcher and then equally assume he would be bad at first? What if he is a bad catcher? Shouldn’t the yankees have the resources to have both a good catching and good hitting catcher?
why don’t we see what he does in the position that he’s been playing for his whole life first before we talk about moving him.
——————–
Stop arguing with invisible people
LGY – I would put range third behind glove and arm… range is not a skill its a physical ability. If you are slow you should not have learned to play positions that require range.
“If they could throw, they would move to 3rd. Honestly I don’t know why they stick guys at 1B that can’t field, it’s a pretty vital spot on the field.”
————–
Mark Teixiera and Miguel Cabrera disagree.
LGY – Also, “jump” is more important than speed when it comes to range IMO… if you can’t read the ball off the bat you can be the fastest guy in baseball and still never get there on hard hit balls.
It takes more skill to play 1b well than LF but because you have to be able to run a little to play OF its probably easier for more guys to be passable at 1B.
What if he is a bad catcher?
=====================
If you’re talking about Montero, that is anything BUT an “if.”
“LGY – I would put range third behind glove and arm… range is not a skill its a physical ability. If you are slow you should not have learned to play positions that require range.”
—————
Glove and arm are more important than range?
The most important thing in baseball is getting to the ball.
Range is also not just physical ability. Footwork is a major part as well. Also, speed is not just physical ability.
You can train to increase your speed, reaction time, explosiveness, and first step.
LGY – I would put range third behind glove and arm… range is not a skill its a physical ability. If you are slow you should not have learned to play positions that require range.
——————
None of that changes the fact that range is the most important thing for any fielder.
blake – I guess “passable” is the disconnect here. I’m not interested in Montero being a “passable” 1B… especially following up Teixeira. If montero could field his whole life, he would not have become a catcher as such a large man.
If montero could field his whole life, he would not have become a catcher as such a large man.
—————–
This seems like quite an assumption.
Montero loves to catch.
I would rather have a team full of average range players that make all the routine plays than one with great range but makes a ton of errors……most pitching staffs would as well.
Range is a component of first step, tracking, and speed. Players with good first step get by with less speed. Players with great speed get by without first step. Elite players combine all 3. Bad players usually have poor tracking. Pretty sure almost anyone can catch a baseball. “If he gets to it he can catch it” is the most lukewarm compliment any coach can give a player.
LGY – What good is range if you can’t catch the ball when you get there, reach the infield with it or hit a bag with a throw?
Sure glove, accurate arm, arm strength, range. Range may fall into different places for each position, with 1b/3b being the bottom of the spectrum… but glove/arm accuracy is king for all fielders.
would rather have a team full of average range players that make all the routine plays than one with great range but makes a ton of errors……most pitching staffs would as well.
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Would your hypothetical average team make 0 errors? How many plays do they make? How many more plays does the elite range guy make over the average defenders? How many more errors does he make? If extra plays – errors > 0 than your elite defender is better.
You don’t need great defense at every position. It would be nice to have great defense+great offense at every spot but that is not realistic.
Swisher, Alex, and Jeter are all passable at their position and the Yankees are fine.
ID,
I have no idea how well Montero could play 1B…I’ve never seem him play there. I was just talking about the positions i’m general.
LGY – What good is range if you can’t catch the ball when you get there, reach the infield with it or hit a bag with a throw?
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Every player in baseball has ‘glove’. Enough to make the standard catches required for an outfielder. Having a better ‘glove’ is almost always going to come into play where you are already using your range and speed to make acrobatic/out of zone catches like dives/wall climbs/on the run.
Range is the bigger factor there.
LGY – What good is range if you can’t catch the ball when you get there, reach the infield with it or hit a bag with a throw?
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How many major league players can’t catch the ball?
Framing the argument that way doesn’t make sense. What good is catching the ball or throwing the ball if you never get to the ball?
LGY – Everyone I met growing up ended up playing catcher because they couldn’t field. All the way up and through college ball I don’t think I met one guy that could have played another position well, but chose to catch instead.
Jerkface,
My team would make enough plays and prevent enough errors so that my argument makes sense.
My team would make enough plays and prevent enough errors so that my argument makes sense.
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“You also need the speed to get to the balls, which automatically disqualifies many people. Its why 1st is listed as ‘easiest’ on the defensive spectrum, right next to LF.”
lots of outfielders can’t catch ground balls in the infield . infielders make it look easy, but it’s a skill not all baseball players have.
i once threw pre season BP to a triple a player who was the red sox #1 draft pick and who was playing center field for the rays triple a team. he had hit 25 homers and had about a .900 OPS the year before with them.
this guy was left handed, 6’3, and ran well ( played center field often), so i told him he should learn first base so the devil rays could use him as the back up first baseman in addition to being their fourth outfielder.
i started hitting him grounders and almost killed him. he could not catch a ground ball. we gave up after about a week because he was going to get seriously injured.
could he have learned it? sure, but not in less than a few years. ironically his younger brother was a number one draft pick with kansas city at first base.
So let’s ignore all the OF who have converted to 1B because of a single example of an unnamed minor leaguer?
As for the pitching vs. hitting argument, it’s not just about what wins in the WS. You have to get there first. The SF Giants would have struggled to even win 90 games in the AL (they’re basically a carbon copy of the Mariners or A’s), and the 2006 Cardinals or even 2000 Yankees would be toast in this division.
Both offense and pitching are equally important, IMO. You need offense to get into the playoffs, and then pitching to win a title. The teams that do it only on pitching generally come from weak divisions. We don’t have the luxury of squeaking by with 88 wins and then blowing everyone away in October. The Yankees have to follow a different formula.
Nobody is suggesting that the Yankees try to have bad fielding at first base here
Wow Randy you were the official bullpen catcher of Greg Blosser?!
Why is everybody in such a hurry to bring up Montero anyway???
The guy has a good average, but he has two home runs and 12 RBI’s… It’s not like he destroying AAA. Not to mention that he fell completely on his face a couple of months ago when he knew he had a chance to win a major league job.
Vazquez, on the other hand… He is MASHING at Scranton… And he’s 29, so who really cares if it doesn’t work… He couldn’t possibly be worse than what we’re using right now.
The guy has never been given much of a chance in the majors, so I don’t know how anybody could say he CAN’T do it… We don’t know if he can do it.
Maybe he’s the next Nelson Cruz. People called him a Quadruple-A players for YEARS, and he got a hell of a lot more of a chance than Vazquez has ever seen.
At least they get a break that Roberts isn’t in the lineup because of a headache. He is always such a pain in the butt.