The LoHud Yankees Blog

A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Cervelli starts series finale

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jun 05, 2011 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Derek Jeter SS
Curtis Granderson CF
Mark Teixeira 1B
Alex Rodriguez 3B
Robinson Cano 2B
Nick Swisher RF
Jorge Posada DH
Brett Gardner LF
Francisco Cervelli C

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92 Responses to “Cervelli starts series finale”

  1. Vineyard Yankee June 5th, 2011 at 12:57 pm

    As much as Cervelli is spelling Martin recently, Montero would have quite a few AB’s as the backup and occasional DH.

  2. William Buckner June 5th, 2011 at 12:59 pm

    “Jorge retires…..the Yankees pay him his money as a genture and thank you or whatever……send him out the right way if possible.”

    I’ve thought about that too. Perhaps offer him a service agreement to keep him around the team. Management need to weigh hurt feeling versus missing the playoffs because they care a guy playing regularly with a .160/.290 line that doesn’t offer defensive help.

  3. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:00 pm

    AldootheApache,

    I think you are confusing TEAM wins and INDIVIDUAL wins. Clearly, team wins are the most important thing in baseball. Individual wins, however, do nothing to demonstrate the quality of a pitcher. Again, there’s nothing to ARGUE on this point, because there are such better ways to evaluate a pitcher. It’s beyond ignorant on your part to dismiss them in favor of an overly simplistic tool such as wins.

  4. blake June 5th, 2011 at 1:02 pm

    WB,

    Can a contract be made into a service agreement of some sort? If they could work something like that out then that would be nice….or just pay him. If they released him they’d have to pay him anyway…..

  5. William Buckner June 5th, 2011 at 1:06 pm

    “Can a contract be made into a service agreement of some sort? If they could work something like that out then that would be nice….or just pay him. If they released him they’d have to pay him anyway…..”

    No, it can’t. They release him, he gets paid. However, he retires he does not. They could agree that he retires and is hired as team employee and paid the difference of what he’s owed.

    It all comes down to how Posada wants to go out.

  6. BoJo June 5th, 2011 at 1:07 pm

    Daniel–

    If you can find a pitcher who goes 32-0, I’ll take him. Lady Luck must love him.

  7. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:09 pm

    BoJo,

    The “EXTREME” example that I used helps to articulate how unbelievably stupid being overly reliant on wins is. And if you would actually take the 32-0 pitcher with the 9.00 ERA over the 0-32 pitcher with the 1.00 ERA, that is just sad.

  8. West Coast Yankee Fan June 5th, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    Daniel – I think 999 out of 1,000 knowledgeable baseball fans would agree with you. To judge a pitcher based on “team wins” when there are so many other factors beyond a pitcher’s control, or even influence, that go into a win or loss is just not an intelligent position.

  9. BoJo June 5th, 2011 at 1:12 pm

    Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:09 pm
    BoJo,

    The “EXTREME” example that I used helps to articulate how unbelievably stupid being overly reliant on wins is. And if you would actually take the 32-0 pitcher with the 9.00 ERA over the 0-32 pitcher with the 1.00 ERA, that is just sad.
    _________
    That you don’t realize baseball is a team game and individual stats mean less than the team wins and losses is just stupid.

  10. BoJo June 5th, 2011 at 1:13 pm

    Daniel–And now you have WCYF agreeing with you…case closed

  11. Tar June 5th, 2011 at 1:13 pm

    Daniel

    what part of Toronto do you live in?

    I was just there-great city. Are gas prices still over 3$ a gallon .

  12. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:18 pm

    BoJo,

    I’m pretty sure that I just typed that team wins are the most important thing in baseball. That doesn’t give ANY merit to discussing individual wins as an indicator of the quality of a pitcher.

    Tar,

    I live in Yorkville. Where were you staying?

  13. Jerkface June 5th, 2011 at 1:20 pm

    The 0-32 pitchers team is terrible. Give me the 32-0 pitcher because that team probably has a hella good offense and bullpen while the former is likely replacement level.

  14. Vineyard Yankee June 5th, 2011 at 1:21 pm

    Tar June 5th, 2011 at 1:13 pm

    $ 3 a gallon ? ? I’ll take that. About $ 4.50 per (avg) out here on the Left Coast.

  15. BoJo June 5th, 2011 at 1:21 pm

    Daniel–

    You are the one putting the extreme example up for discussion. I am following your parameters.

    Anyone who has a 0-32 record with a 1.00 ERA must have LOSER tattooed on his forehead as he consistently finds a way to lose.

    If you want to change your parameters to a discussion of CC versus Felix in 2010, that changes the discussion….

    But Aldo has an opinion that he would rather find a pitcher that somehow finds a way to win than just someone with better numbers. That is a discussion that can have proponents of both sides.

  16. AldotheApache June 5th, 2011 at 1:22 pm

    Daniel in Toronto says:
    June 5, 2011 at 1:00 pm
    AldootheApache,

    I think you are confusing TEAM wins and INDIVIDUAL wins. Clearly, team wins are the most important thing in baseball. Individual wins, however, do nothing to demonstrate the quality of a pitcher. Again, there’s nothing to ARGUE on this point, because there are such better ways to evaluate a pitcher. It’s beyond ignorant on your part to dismiss them in favor of an overly simplistic tool such as wins.

    ————

    Maybe you and your west coast alter ego also share a language deficiency.

    One more time, and read it slowly … if you think a differing opinion threatens your own credibility, then you and I have nothing further to discuss.

  17. jpb173 June 5th, 2011 at 1:22 pm

    I know that many Yankee fans want to see Jesus Montero brought up to be a part-time DH part-time Catcher…but that would be a dumb idea. The Yankees want Montero to become a viable major league catcher so they need to make sure that he is fully developed as a catcher before bringing him up. Considering his youth (21 years old) size and lack of nimbleness, he simply is nowhere near ready to catch at the major league level.

    Catching, at the major league level, is likely the most difficult positions to break into. Besides learning a whole new league of pitchers to bat against, a young catcher must, besides all of the skills that are needed to catch, learn how to handle pitchers, call a game, throw out runners and learn an entire league of batters to game plan against. Montero isn’t up to the major league level on even the most basic catching skills and would be overwhelmed by trying to handle difficult pitchers like Joba and AJ.

    It simply isn’t worth Montero giving up development time in the minor leagues, now, in order to get a few cheap at bats at the major league level this season. If Posada continues to struggle and the Yankees need a DH they can pick up one at the trade deadline.

    The Orioles had a “sure thing” catching prospect in Matt Wieters and waited until he was 23 years old to bring him up. His first two years in the majors were a major disappointment and he is only now showing the promise of his potential. The Yanks will need to be similarly patient with Montero in his youth.

  18. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:23 pm

    Jerkface,

    Again, you’re confusing the TEAM with the INDIVIDUAL.

    What the hell?

  19. Tar June 5th, 2011 at 1:25 pm

    Ahh Yorkville very nice neighborhood.

    Where did I stay, Let me google first.

    OK-I stayed in the financial district.

  20. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:25 pm

    Jerkface,

    I’m going to assume that you’re joking. Either that, or you’re totally confusing the team with the individual.

  21. West Coast Yankee Fan June 5th, 2011 at 1:26 pm

    Once again; Bojo idiocy trying to defend the indefensible.

    1. A pitcher has zero control over his team’s offensive productivity.

    2. A pitcher has zero control over whether or not his defense plays well.

    3. A pitcher has zero control over whether or not the pen protects a lead.

    A win or a loss is not an individual stat – it’s a team stat.

  22. Jerkface June 5th, 2011 at 1:26 pm

    I’m going to assume that you’re joking. Either that, or you’re totally confusing the team with the individual.

    Look, there is no way 1 pitcher with a 9 ERA got lucky 32 times where his offense came through and the bullpen held up. Therefore, they must be amazing. The 1 ERA pitcher is way better, but his team stinks. I take the 32-0 guy every day of the week because the rest of the team is probably aces.

  23. BoJo June 5th, 2011 at 1:27 pm

    West Coast Yankee Fan June 5th, 2011 at 1:26 pm

    Blah blah blah blah

    Yawn

  24. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:28 pm

    The double post was not intentional.

    But no, I don’t think the 0-32 pitcher has LOSER tattooed on his forehead at all. Maybe his TEAM does. He gave up 32 runs all year.

  25. AldotheApache June 5th, 2011 at 1:29 pm

    Jerkface, we’re all confused, and he gets it.

    Remind you of anyone?

  26. Tar June 5th, 2011 at 1:30 pm

    “The double post was not intentional”

    Is that just counting 1 screen name?

  27. Jerkface June 5th, 2011 at 1:31 pm

    But no, I don’t think the 0-32 pitcher has LOSER tattooed on his forehead at all. Maybe his TEAM does. He gave up 32 runs all year.

    32 runs? Thats only if he averaged 9 innings per start, which is impossible since by giving up 1 run and losing he would be the recipient of several 8 inning CG losses which would inflate his ERA to 1.05!

  28. BoJo June 5th, 2011 at 1:32 pm

    Daniel–

    Even on a replacement level team, a pitcher with a 1.00 ERA should find a way to win SOME games. Your pitcher is a total loser and doesn’t know how to win.

    Whereas a pitcher with a 9.00–even on a good team–should find some way to lose. No team goes that many games without a loss unless the pitcher is doing something right. Perhaps he goes 5 scoreless innings and then gives up 5 in the sixth without getting anyone out. He has still given his team a chance to win, and left with the lead.

    I’ll take that guy gladly.

  29. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:32 pm

    Uh, yeah, I can pretty much assure you that I don’t have more than one screen name.

    It’s pretty petty to accuse someone of that just because someone else agrees with me.

  30. Jerkface June 5th, 2011 at 1:33 pm

    Daniel, what now, smartie pants?

    Pitcher A: 32-0 , 9 ERA, 1.50 FIP 1.0 xFIP
    Pitcher B: 0-32, 1 ERA, 9 FIP, 9.5 xFIP

    Who do you choose

  31. Vineyard Yankee June 5th, 2011 at 1:35 pm

    Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:32 pm

    Hit the nail on the head. Everyone is someone else here, so some think. LOL !

  32. Tar June 5th, 2011 at 1:36 pm

    “It’s pretty petty to accuse someone of that just because someone else agrees with me.”

    Maybe if you had added an eh? I would have been more convinced.

  33. West Coast Yankee Fan June 5th, 2011 at 1:36 pm

    Yovani Gallardo has the best win-loss record in MLB right now at 8-2. Must be the front runner for the Cy Young.

  34. LockDown June 5th, 2011 at 1:37 pm

    I bet MO is happy that Cervelli is catching :D

  35. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:37 pm

    Jerkface,

    It’s kind of odd that you’re using advanced statistics as a way to “confuse” me or something without taking into account that this whole thing started because I’m a big proponent of ignoring wins and losses.

  36. Vineyard Yankee June 5th, 2011 at 1:37 pm

    West Coast Yankee Fan June 5th, 2011 at 1:26 pm

    ‘it’s a team stat’.

    +++++++++

    Not you too ? ?…………LOL !

  37. Jerkface June 5th, 2011 at 1:39 pm

    It’s kind of odd that you’re using advanced statistics as a way to “confuse” me or something without taking into account that this whole thing started because I’m a big proponent of ignoring wins and losses.

    Dodge! You need to answer.

  38. BoJo June 5th, 2011 at 1:39 pm

    Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:18 pm
    BoJo,

    I’m pretty sure that I just typed that team wins are the most important thing in baseball. That doesn’t give ANY merit to discussing individual wins as an indicator of the quality of a pitcher.
    ________
    If you agree that team wins are more important than individual wins, you are by definition agreeing to take the guy who gets his team wins…32-0…whether by pitching skill, luck, or black magic.

  39. yankee21 June 5th, 2011 at 1:39 pm

    NYY is in a tough position with Posada. Damned if they do something drastic damned if they don’t. IMO, NYY owes Posada nothing, if he doesn’t perform and isn’t willing to retire, you have to release him, because you cannot carry a .170 bat in your everyday lineup.

    So NYY doesn’t have anyone in the system capable of batting just .250 at the Big league level with some power to DH? If not, that is a sad testament to drafting, development and FA signing and really poor decisions by the GM given his available funds.

    My sense though it is probably more about fear of pissing off an ICON than the lack of available players though. Over the last few years, NYY decisions have been much more about how their decisions impact their icons than how their decisions impact their wins.

    I am not understanding their fascination with Cervelli. WTH he is the ML is beyond me, and WTH Montero is not getting a chance is beyond me too. I know and everyone knows Montero is not tearing it up this year, but he has demonstrated an elite bat for several years why not give him a good shot?? Is he that terrible of a catcher?? If I’m a fellow GM and I ask for Montero I value him as a DH not as a catcher because there is no way Cash can look at me with a straight face and say he is a ML catcher because they never let him catch at the big league level- actions trump words.

    I realize NYY has all the inside information which might explain their decisions but on the surface it just doesn’t make much sense…

  40. AldotheApache June 5th, 2011 at 1:41 pm

    Once again, sweeping all-or-nothing statements from his own reality, ie …

    1. A pitcher has zero control over his team’s offensive productivity. (and yet, he DOES control how much the other team scores, as in less than his OWN team … otherwise known as a WIN).

    2. A pitcher has zero control over whether or not his defense plays well. (wrong. For example, pitchers control the pace of the game, and the confidence of the fielders behind him)

    3. A pitcher has zero control over whether or not the pen protects a lead. (wrong. For example, pitching deep into the game)

    A win or a loss is not an individual stat (really? What was CC credited with yesterday?)

  41. Ghostwriter June 5th, 2011 at 1:42 pm

    Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:32 pm

    Uh, yeah, I can pretty much assure you that I don’t have more than one screen name.

    It’s pretty petty to accuse someone of that just because someone else agrees with me.
    ===========================

    Ummm… It’s not just that a certain somebody agrees with you. It has a lot to do with:
    1. The dogmatism
    2. The absolutism
    3. The inability to discern between fact and opinion/objective and subjective
    4. The desire for attention
    5. The puerile attempts to impugn the credibility of others

    If you mean well, maybe you should just agree to disagree, and drop it.

  42. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:42 pm

    BoJo,

    I’m absolutely not. I would take the TEAM that the guy who is 32-0 on, but would clearly take the pitcher who is 0-32 if I had to choose a guy to pitch a game for me.

  43. BoJo June 5th, 2011 at 1:43 pm

    BTW Daniel–My real point in all of this is that EXTREME examples are a bullspit way to conduct any argument. The political field use them all the time.

    “Let’s assume something that NEVER could happen…BUT IF IT DID, then you’re WRONG!!!!”

  44. Jerkface June 5th, 2011 at 1:43 pm

    I’m absolutely not. I would take the TEAM that the guy who is 32-0 on, but would clearly take the pitcher who is 0-32 if I had to choose a guy to pitch a game for me.

    Pretty foolish with an xFIP like he has!

  45. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:45 pm

    Ghostwriter,

    Your post is beyong childish. It’s funny that West Coast Yankee Fan (who I’ve literally never spoken to before) and I aren’t assuming that the people we’re arguing with are the same “PERSON” merely because they have the same stuck-in-the-1930s viewpoint.

  46. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:47 pm

    BoJo,

    I don’t agree with that line of reasoning. If you truly believe that wins and losses are the only thing that matter for a pitcher, then your argument should stand up when using the most extreme examples. If the extreme examples make your point look rather foolish, then it should certainly lead you to question the merit of your original point.

  47. Ghostwriter June 5th, 2011 at 1:48 pm

    I rest my case.

  48. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    Ghostwriter,

    You’re a lunatic. Do you see dead people, too?

  49. Nick in SF June 5th, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    Fire up the skype. :neutral:

  50. Pat M. June 5th, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    Glad I’m heading to Anaheim to see the Yanks because the LoHud once again is chasing it’s tail in muck….

  51. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:51 pm

    Oh so SOWWY, Pat. M.

    I just don’t appreciate being unnecessarily accused of being “someone else” when I’ve probably posted on this website about 5 times. It’s absurd and completely without justification. If you disagree with me, that’s one thing. But people shouldn’t attempt to group a bunch of people together as the “same person” just because they hold the same viewpoint that millions and millions of knowledgeable baseball fans hold.

    OMGZ, YOU MUST BE THE SAME PERSON AS WEST COAST YANKEE FAN, BECAUSE YOU DON’T THINK THAT INDIVIDUAL WINS MEASURE THE QUALITY OF A PITCHER.

    I suppose that West Coast Yankee Fan and I are also the same becauswe we both (presumably) believe that the world is round.

  52. REZ12 June 5th, 2011 at 1:51 pm

    The guy who is 32-0 has the greater chance of winning the game for his team. There is something to be said for knowing how to win.

    Regardless of his peripherals, do you really trust someone who is 0-32? What makes you think that is the day he will go to 1-32 rather than 0-33?

  53. Jerkface June 5th, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    What makes you think that is the day he will go to 1-32 rather than 0-33?

    Not his FIP thats for sure. Though now I am worried that the 32-0 pitcher’s defense is suspect, given how high is BABIP is and the amount of hits that drop in. Luckily they mash.

  54. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    BECAUSE HE GIVES UP ONE RUN PER GAME, WHICH MEANS THAT THE OFFENSE ONLY HAS TO SCORE 2 RUNS PER GAME. THE OTHER GUY GIVES UP 5 RUNS PER GAME IN 5 INNINGS, WHICH MEANS THE OFFENSE HAS TO SCORE AT LEAST 6 RUNS TO WIN THE GAME.

    In other words, if they’re on the SAME TEAM, the 0-32 pitcher is far more likely to put you in a better chance to win.

    How can you not understand that? Seriously. This is beyond infuriating.

  55. Nick in SF June 5th, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    Pat M, I hope you get to see the same Bartolo Colon level of performance that I saw in Oakland on Monday.

  56. Jerkface June 5th, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    If there is anything that 32-0 9 ERA 1 FIP proves, its that offense is the key.

  57. Ghostwriter June 5th, 2011 at 1:55 pm

    Jerkface June 5th, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    What makes you think that is the day he will go to 1-32 rather than 0-33?

    Not his FIP thats for sure. Though now I am worried that the 32-0 pitcher’s defense is suspect, given how high is BABIP is and the amount of hits that drop in. Luckily they mash.
    =============================

    ‘Face, I like you, man, but you are such a dork! :) Why are you arguing with this guy? He’s clearly trolling for attention, whoever he is.

  58. Jerkface June 5th, 2011 at 1:56 pm

    I’m just extending the hypothetical to its logical conclusion.

  59. Vineyard Yankee June 5th, 2011 at 1:56 pm

    Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    They are all ‘connected at the hip’, Bojo, Aldo, Ghost and Jerkface in case you didn’t know that already, gang mentality.

  60. Ghostwriter June 5th, 2011 at 1:57 pm

    Pat M. June 5th, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    Glad I’m heading to Anaheim to see the Yanks because the LoHud once again is chasing it’s tail in muck….
    ======================================

    Well then, I guess that the blog troll(s) did you a favor, chasing you out of the house and to the ballpark :) Have fun!

  61. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:57 pm

    Ghostwriter,

    You have to be joking. You really do.

    I’m “trolling for attention” because I can’t comprehend how a group of “baseball fans” don’t recognize the limitations of evaluating a pitcher based on their win-loss record?

    I think you’re “TROLLING FOR ATTENTION” by randomly accusing me of being someone else and involving yourself in an “argument” that you haven’t added anything to.

  62. AldotheApache June 5th, 2011 at 1:58 pm

    Ghostwriter says:
    June 5, 2011 at 1:42 pm
    Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:32 pm

    Ummm… It’s not just that a certain somebody agrees with you. It has a lot to do with:
    1. The dogmatism
    2. The absolutism
    3. The inability to discern between fact and opinion/objective and subjective
    4. The desire for attention
    5. The puerile attempts to impugn the credibility of others

    If you mean well, maybe you should just agree to disagree, and drop it.

    ————

    Stunning eloquence.

    And to top it all off, they all appeared here simultaneously.

  63. BoJo June 5th, 2011 at 1:58 pm

    Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:47 pm
    BoJo,

    I don’t agree with that line of reasoning. If you truly believe that wins and losses are the only thing that matter for a pitcher, then your argument should stand up when using the most extreme examples. If the extreme examples make your point look rather foolish, then it should certainly lead you to question the merit of your original point.
    __________
    Looking at extremes is like assuming that everything i black or white…life is more complicated than that.

    BTW, in your example, you forgot to point out that they are both NL pitchers, and the 32-0 pitchers hits .750 with 250 homers and 400 RBI.

    (If you can formulate ridiculous extremes, so can I.)

  64. blake June 5th, 2011 at 1:59 pm

    Give me the 32-0 pitcher with the 1 ERA……was that an option?

  65. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:59 pm

    Vineyard Yankee,

    If someone were to read this entire “argument”, it would reflect pretty negatively on this blog and the people who use it. It doesn’t really present a “welcoming” atmosphere when you are accused of being someone else if you dare disagree with the “majority” opinion (despite the fact that pretty much no one thinks the way that this “majority” thinks anymore).

  66. Jerkface June 5th, 2011 at 1:59 pm

    Give me the 32-0 pitcher with the 1 ERA……was that an option?

    We’d have to trade Montero, but it may be worth it. This guy isn’t 38 is he?

  67. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 2:00 pm

    BoJo,

    You just said that looking at the extremes is like looking at everything in black and white…

    Umm, I’m pretty sure that this argument because AldoTheGenius suggested that wins and losses were ALWAYS the most important thing in evaluating a pitcher.

  68. Joe from Long Island June 5th, 2011 at 2:01 pm

    Pat M. – have a good time, and join in those Let’s Go Yankees! chants. I loved hearing them over the TV last night.

  69. BoJo June 5th, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 2:00 pm
    BoJo,

    You just said that looking at the extremes is like looking at everything in black and white…

    Umm, I’m pretty sure that this argument because AldoTheGenius suggested that wins and losses were ALWAYS the most important thing in evaluating a pitcher.
    ______
    Noooo. I believe he said that it in his opinion was the most important stat. Totally different statement. Anyone can have an opinion..>Stating it as universal fact is totally different.

  70. Vineyard Yankee June 5th, 2011 at 2:04 pm

    Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:57 pm

    Almost every new poster here (new screen name) is assumed to be someone else in the eyes of ‘The Goof Troup’. WCYF agreeing with you is taboo in their world. It is no wonder that new posters here (and some old ones too) don’t stay for long. They are looking for arguments not Baseball conversation. Suggestion would be to scroll past and or pick your battles here, it’s not worth your time or energy.

  71. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 2:05 pm

    Wait…

    So it’s okay for him to look at things in black and white, but if I dare to try to interject by pointing out a situation that his line of reasoning doesn’t mesh well with… then it’s looking at the extremes and is problematic because it’s looking at things in black and white..

    Oooookay.

  72. AldotheApache June 5th, 2011 at 2:06 pm

    Daniel in Toronto says:
    June 5, 2011 at 1:59 pm
    Vineyard Yankee,

    If someone were to read this entire “argument”, it would reflect pretty negatively on this blog and the people who use it.

    ———–

    If someone were to read back, they would see an intelligent discussion about baseball, right up until the moment the “wins mean nothing” voice (singular) arrived.

    Nothing new.

  73. Jerkface June 5th, 2011 at 2:06 pm

    Umm, I’m pretty sure that this argument because AldoTheGenius suggested that wins and losses were ALWAYS the most important thing in evaluating a pitcher.

    Be fair, he said that TO HIM he goes by wins and losses. I think most people realize that pitcher wins and losses are, at times, entirely arbitrary and stupid. But to deny him of using it as his own measuring stick is to simultaneously deny the arguments for clutch and other things which are also arbitrary and stupid, and people don’t want to give up those kinds of ‘feel arguments’ so easily.

    Baseball at its heart is both statistically and narratively driven, and people fall on either side. To the narrative fan, a pitcher’s win loss record tells a tale of the season, and perhaps that 20-4 4 ERA pitcher did something that the 12-10 2 ERA pitcher didn’t. FIP not withstanding, we can all guess at who the better pitcher is.

  74. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 2:08 pm

    AldotheApache,

    I’m pretty sure that no one (outside of your two or three close friends on this blog) would agree with you on that point. But okay.

  75. Ghostwriter June 5th, 2011 at 2:08 pm

    BoJo June 5th, 2011 at 1:58 pm

    Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:47 pm
    BoJo,

    I don’t agree with that line of reasoning. If you truly believe that wins and losses are the only thing that matter for a pitcher, then your argument should stand up when using the most extreme examples. If the extreme examples make your point look rather foolish, then it should certainly lead you to question the merit of your original point.
    __________
    Looking at extremes is like assuming that everything i black or white…life is more complicated than that.

    BTW, in your example, you forgot to point out that they are both NL pitchers, and the 32-0 pitchers hits .750 with 250 homers and 400 RBI.

    (If you can formulate ridiculous extremes, so can I.)

    ==========================================
    I don’t think that there is anything wrong with making simplifying assumptions to facilitate the analysis, as long as the assumptions don’t drive the results or conclusions. I don’t think that it’s the starkness of the hypothetical that is what’s wrong with it. I think that it has more to do with the unspoken assumptions that accompany it–anmely, he assumes that for whatever reason, the losses aren’t the pitcher’s fault. This unspoken assumption drives the result, making the hypothetical construction not very illuminating. At the end of the day, this hypothetical chucker gave up the marginal/decisive run 32 times in a row.

  76. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 2:09 pm

    Jerkface,

    Should I be “fair” to him when his instantaneous reaction to being “denied” use of wins and losses as his own measuring stick is to accuse me of being someone else?

  77. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 2:10 pm

    Ghostwriter,

    You think that it’s reasonable to suggest that it could possibly be the pitcher’s fault when he gives up 1 run over 9 innings over the course of every single game of the season, only to see his offense score 0 runs for him over that same time span? You may write “eloquently”, as your lover would suggest, but it still comes off as “stupid” to me.

  78. Vineyard Yankee June 5th, 2011 at 2:12 pm

    Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 1:59 pm

    I call it drinking the ‘Yankee Kool Aid’ (majority opinion), which doesn’t really pertain to your present thought and discussion. See my post @ 2:04pm. Question for you, after engaged the ‘troup’ do you really give a crap what they think anyway ? ? Just say’in.

  79. AldotheApache June 5th, 2011 at 2:13 pm

    Daniel in Toronto says:
    June 5, 2011 at 2:08 pm
    AldotheApache,

    I’m pretty sure that no one (outside of your two or three close friends on this blog) would agree with you on that point. But okay.

    ———

    Now, you see … You just tripped your own self up.

    You don’t know me from Adam, yet you use the term ‘close friends’ … aside from them, only WCRSF really knows who are my close friends here.

    BUSTED!!!!!!!!!!!

  80. Ghostwriter June 5th, 2011 at 2:13 pm

    Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 2:10

    ====================================

    I tried asking you nicely to clean up your act. Your response was childish name-calling. I’ve moved on, sport. I’m not interested in pursuing a dialog with you.

  81. BoJo June 5th, 2011 at 2:13 pm

    Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 2:05 pm
    Wait…

    So it’s okay for him to look at things in black and white, but if I dare to try to interject by pointing out a situation that his line of reasoning doesn’t mesh well with… then it’s looking at the extremes and is problematic because it’s looking at things in black and white..

    Oooookay.
    ______________
    I think we are experiencing that dreaded Canadian/American miscommunication issue.

    His was his opinion, that he valued wins over individual stats. Before assuming if that is black or white, you might have asked him if there were any exceptions.

    Instead, you assumed it is a black and white issue with him, and then stated your own universal truth–that it is always about peripheral stats…You then set the parameters for the discussion with your two cases. Others have argued that you could be wrong under certain circumstances, and that there are other issues than just peripheral stats.

  82. Jerkface June 5th, 2011 at 2:14 pm

    Should I be “fair” to him when his instantaneous reaction to being “denied” use of wins and losses as his own measuring stick is to accuse me of being someone else?

    It wasn’t instantaneous, and your original post was bringing up something said from 2 threads ago and then stating that by him having his opinion it will be IMPOSSIBLE to have discussion. Its only impossible to have discussion when you make it impossible.

  83. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 2:14 pm

    Do you know any good mental health clinics where you are? Paranoia is powerful stuff.

  84. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 2:18 pm

    First of all, it’s hysterical that someone would bring up some sort of American/Canadian dichotomy to explain this.

    Second of all, it IS impossible to have an intelligent baseball discussion with someone who values wins and losses over everything else as a way to evaluate the quality of a pitcher. It’s impossible because they’re making a choice to neglect other, more intelligent ways to evaluate the quality of a pitcher.

  85. BoJo June 5th, 2011 at 2:20 pm

    Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 2:18 pm
    First of all, it’s hysterical that someone would bring up some sort of American/Canadian dichotomy to explain this.
    __________
    That was a joke. I thought Canadians had a sense of humor.

  86. Jerkface June 5th, 2011 at 2:21 pm

    Do you really think that someone is going to use such a strict, rigid evaluation system in an actual discussion re: players? You picked on a post that was celebrating CC Sabathia’s greatness. Why not try to have the debate, then when you run into the road block, pout? Or work around it. Nothing is impossible.

    And its certainly not impossible for other people to have discussion AROUND that person. Its not like one person loving wins grinds everything to a halt.

  87. Daniel in Toronto June 5th, 2011 at 2:23 pm

    Yes, jerkface, my answer to your question would be yes: I do think some people are going to use that type of strict, rigid evaluation system in an actual discsusion.

    And BoJo, I assumed that “hysterical” meant the same thing in Canada as it does in America. Perhaps I was wrong.

  88. Vineyard Yankee June 5th, 2011 at 2:23 pm

    Daniel:

    Start a list and put a line down the middle so when you come back here in the future you will know who is who. Unless of course you choose to spend all afternoon here going back and forth as ‘The Troup’ twists and turns every statement into the ‘Battle of Valley Forge’.

  89. AldotheApache June 5th, 2011 at 2:24 pm

    And its certainly not impossible for other people to have discussion AROUND that person. Its not like one person loving wins grinds everything to a halt.

    ——

    Well said.

  90. Vineyard Yankee June 5th, 2011 at 2:28 pm

    New Thread. :arrow:

  91. BoJo June 5th, 2011 at 2:34 pm

    And BoJo, I assumed that “hysterical” meant the same thing in Canada as it does in America. Perhaps I was wrong.
    ________
    Yes—In America, hysterical means ” a lowly troll-like emotion designated by foaming at the mouth.”

    It’s actually a very bad insult in this country.

  92. CompassRosy June 5th, 2011 at 6:18 pm

    “If you agree that team wins are more important than individual wins, you are by definition agreeing to take the guy who gets his team wins…32-0…whether by pitching skill, luck, or black magic.”

    And the operative phrase there is “the guy who gets his team wins”. I believe the original hypothetical cited, it would be more like “the team who gets their guy wins”. IOW – even if a pitcher doesn’t give up any runs, he can’t get the win unless his team scores while he is the pitcher of record.

    Case in point: Felix in 2010: in 8 of his 12 losses he gave up 3 runs or less (zero runs once) and in all 9 of his no decisions he gave up 3 runs or less (zero runs twice).

    I agree that wins are THE most important stat – for a TEAM. They are not an effective way to evaluate a pitcher. Again, case in point: 2010 CY winner Felix Hernandez

    http://tinyurl.com/23u4u5j

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