Yankees expand division lead
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jun 28, 2011 
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The Yankees never gave the Brewers much of a chance tonight. They scored seven runs in the first two innings, chased Zack Greinke from the game and beat Milwaukee 12-2 at Yankee Stadium. It was the Yankees 13th win in their past 17 games, and gave them a game and a half lead in the American League East, their largest lead since June 2. Nick Swisher stayed hot with four RBI, three of them on a second-inning homer that quickly put the game out of reach. Freddy Garcia picked up his seventh win, allowing two runs through seven innings while throwing only 76 pitches.
Associated Press photo
I wonder how well Garcia would pitch if lohudders actually did like his chances in one of his starts.
Did Garcia pitch well enough to keep his job tonight?
Yanks took over the RS lead from Boston and ran there run differential to +107 with the win tonight. Boston is +80 and the Phillies are +68
No. His 3.28 ERA is too high.
Did Garcia pitch well enough to keep his job tonight?
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Maybe Yankees go to a 6 man rotation once Hughes is back. Since it looks likely that Colon will end Gordon’s days in the rotations against the Mets. Gordon to the pen as the long man. Carlyle sent packing.
I really thought Colon would be out longer, but I guess the stem cells traveled down to his legs. Really happy to get him back asap.
Good night all. Good win and hope they saved some offense for tomorrow.
Jerkface–I’ll feel confident about the Yankees going to the playoffs when the Rays become sellers and/or the fat lady sings!
The key, like the Dos X’s commercial is for the Yankees to “stay healthy my friends.”
The Yanks took back their rightful spot as the best offense in baseball.
LGY and Blake, I agree about Noesi, but if you read what Mark Newman had to say today, it’s kind of discouraging just in terms of how they develop prospects.
Another good job by Garcia. He scares me out there, but when his command is there he’s obviously effective. I still wouldn’t throw him against Boston in September.
Derek who?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Garcia has just been fantastic yet the poor guy is always the one who people want to dump in the pen………….
Jerkface–I’ll feel confident about the Yankees going to the playoffs when the Rays become sellers and/or the fat lady sings!
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I understand this point of view, but man the Yankees look too good to miss the playoffs. They kill everyone except the Red Sox (which can change in the 2nd half) and will undoubtedly do some trades to improve down the stretch. Their starting pitching is really solid and reliable. Bullpen has 2 great relievers. Offense is best or 2nd best in baseball. Defense is pretty good all around.
Garcia has just been fantastic yet the poor guy is always the one who people want to dump in the pen………….
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I would vote to dump him to the pen because they can’t dump Burnett to the pen and he doesn’t have long term upside for the team like Nova. Not really anyone else to dump to the pen!
Garcia will just be the odd man out.
Jerkface, If they dumped Nova to the pen I’d be fine………I don’t think any of these guys deserve to lose their jobs, but it is what it is. Phil lost his spot in the rotation when Wang came back………
Betsy,
I understand what Newman was saying and I don’t even disagree with it really…..but what he said was that they needed Noesi on the big league club to help win games and the problem is that quite often they are using him in situations where the game is already decided.
Garcia has been phenomenal this year. The scary part about him is (and the reason why a ton of people doubt him) is his lack of velocity. You can win with his velocity but you have to be almost perfect with your location. He’s been close to perfect all year but a guy like Colon does have more margin for error.
The rotation will work itself out…..
Noesi is in the pen because the Yankees need him in the pen right now. I honestly don’t see why this bothers anyone. The objective is to win in New York it is not to develop pitchers careers as fast as one can.
The rotation will work itself out…..
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Usually does! But then some teams end up with 1 or 2 sour players stewing in the bullpen/minors. Twins for example.
LGY June 28th, 2011 at 10:32 pm
I wonder how well Garcia would pitch if lohudders actually did like his chances in one of his starts.
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Don’t even say this jokingly!
blake June 28th, 2011 at 10:45 pm
Betsy, I understand what Newman was saying and I don’t even disagree with it really…..but what he said was that they needed Noesi on the big league club to help win games and the problem is that quite often they are using him in situations where the game is already decided.
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When Noesi pitches it means they aren’t using others in the pen and that makes those guys available for tight games.
When Noesi pitches it means they aren’t using others in the pen and that makes those guys available for tight games.
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Good thing Buddy Carlyle is available for a tight game tomorrow!!
Blake, I’m just so annoyed by Newman’s comments………..he’s helping the team how many games? He hardly pitches. His comment about pitchers not being starters or relievers……….really tells me the Yankees have no clue. It’s not like they put Joba or Phil in the pen because it was their philosopy to build up young starters like that. They put them there because it was the expedient thing to do. Well, it’s nice that their first real stud prospects in years were treated that way…granted, IMO, it’s still 99.9% on the players to make whatever they will of their careers.
When Noesi pitches it means they aren’t using others in the pen and that makes those guys available for tight games.
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Oh , Buddy Carlyle is fresh!
Jinx
Dumb.
Buddy Carly– oh. Too late.
Great, so Noesi, a kid, is being used the way some crappy, aging veteran long man is supposed to be?
Good thumping tonight, Swisher is steping his game up. Garcia did his usual smoke and mirrors thing but i think that he can fool the lesser teams but against the really good ones its going to get ugly going forward
The Yankees really need Noesi to pitch in 11-2 ballgames and then burn him out for the next 4 days.
I mean who else could possibly handle throwing in such a tight game??
Garcia has been great and deserves to keep his spot if he continues to pitch like this. He’s going be best against younger teams with plate discipline issues because he can use their aggression against them and make them get themselves out. Patient veteran teams are going to give him more problems…..but he’s been a nearly perfect back end guy so far.
Nova is in the rotation now. Noesi pitching well when called upon. It’s good to see youth coming in from the farm system. By the time AJ’s contract is up we should have one or two other young guys on the big club making it easy to say bye bye to AJ.
If you prefer to see Buddy Carlyle than Noesi – good for you. Luckily you’re not managing the team. Noesi has proven his versatility going 1-6 innings.
I don’t see Nova translating out of the pen like Hughes did. Hughes had a superior FB and superior FB command as a starter. He is a guy who could just blow away guys that that dominant pitch.
Nova doesn’t have anywhere near that command. I see him very much like Noesi out of the pen – lots of foul balls, deep counts, and no real put away pitch despite throwing hard. Both those guys seem much better suited as starters. You can’t just take anyone who throws hard and throw them in the pen and expect it to translate.
I have issues with Girard but you seriously can’t be complaining about how he has handled the pen lately?
If you prefer to see Buddy Carlyle than Noesi – good for you.
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In an 11-2 game? Yea. That way Noesi can pitch in one that is in danger of being lost.
Noesi pitched 2 innings. He won’t be unavailable for 4 days.
“When Noesi pitches it means they aren’t using others in the pen and that makes those guys available for tight games.”
That’s kinda the point…..if Noesi is going to be on the team then he needs to be pitching those tight spots…..now he won’t be available for a few days because he threw 50+ pitches in a game with a 9 run lead
Yanks27, but Phil was not put in the pen because of those qualities; he was put in the pen just because the other option was sending him down to AAA. We’re getting ahead of ourselves because he’s not going to be ready for awhile………..
Noesi’s role is not to pitch in tight games that are in danger of being lost. That is why we have Mariano, Robertson, Logan and Ayala.
Noesi pitched 2 innings. He won’t be unavailable for 4 days.
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He threw 50 pitches, innings don’t tell you how unavailable someone is.
blake June 28th, 2011 at 10:56 pm
“When Noesi pitches it means they aren’t using others in the pen and that makes those guys available for tight games.”
That’s kinda the point…..if Noesi is going to be on the team then he needs to be pitching those tight spots…..now he won’t be available for a few days because he threw 50+ pitches in a game with a 9 run lead
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Why does he have to pitch in tight spots. We have others to do that. That’s not Noesi’s role on this club.
“West Coast Yankee Fan June 28th, 2011 at 10:58 pm
Noesi’s role is not to pitch in tight games that are in danger of being lost. That is why we have Mariano, Robertson, Logan and Ayala.”
Then why do they need him if he is going to throw meaningless innings….that’s what Carlyles and Mitres are for…..not for prospects with a real future
Noesi’s role is not to pitch in tight games that are in danger of being lost. That is why we have Mariano, Robertson, Logan and Ayala.
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Ayala gets worse the closer it is, and Logan? Really?
Betsy June 28th, 2011 at 10:41 pm
Garcia has just been fantastic yet the poor guy is always the one who people want to dump in the pen………….
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I agree. I don’t see how anybody can justify taking his slot from him. I say that you stick with what’s working: Hughes is an unknown quantity at this point. There will be plenty of time to work Phil back into the mix later in the season.
If Garcia keeps going the way he has, he may well be with the Yanks next year as well. He’s a pro, he gets the job done every fifth day, and he is terrific with the young pitchers. Obviously it’s too soon to tell about anything, but I easily can envision him as a guy that can smooth the transition to the new guard. Suffice it to say that Garcia has really impressed me this year. I had no idea that he could be such a beneficial influence.
Why does he have to pitch in tight spots. We have others to do that. That’s not Noesi’s role on this club.
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So Noesi’s role is a mop up man?
Why exactly do the Yankees need a legit prospect to do this?
Is Noesi’s role to keep the Yankees run differential as good as possible?
Girardi has used Noesi for 1 inning in close games before. The middle game against the Cubs was one, for example. I think after his last rough outing against Cincy, Girardi wanted to get him back out there in a low pressure situation just to get his feet under him again. You want to see that he has the ability to bounce back, and now that he’s shown that, I don’t think Girardi will hesitate to use him in a set-up role.
Jerkface June 28th, 2011 at 11:01 pm
Ayala gets worse the closer it is, and Logan? Really?
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Ayala has a 1.48 ERA and Logan has only given up 1 run in his last 9 games.
”
Why exactly do the Yankees need a legit prospect to do this?”
Because they must have a star at every position…..except back up catcher
Garcia has given up 3 runs or less in 12 of 15 starts. He has not given up more than 4 ERs in any of his starts. He has gone at least 6 innings in 11 of 15 starts.
He is the definition of consistency. Not a guy like AJ who will throw a shutout followed by getting bombed followed by 3 ERs followed by 4 ERs followed by a shutout, etc. Garcia’s ERA is highly reflective of his performances game in and out.
And let’s not act like Nova is Banuelos here. He is not that good that he needs to keep his rotation spot over a guy like Garcia. And Nova is a contact pitcher too.
RS,
That’s possible and hopefully thats the case.
Night all….great win
It must be a good sign if no one has anything better to complain about here other than the role of the long man.
Throw out Noesi’s crappy outing in Cincy and he has been pretty solid.
The points are simple to understand. Noesi is 24, there is no rush to fast track him anywhere, the objective is to win in New York not worry about Noesi’s development, the Yankees like having Noesi in the role he has right now.
That’s it.
blake June 28th, 2011 at 11:04 pm
”
Why exactly do the Yankees need a legit prospect to do this?”
Because they must have a star at every position…..except back up catcher
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Why leave out back up catcher. Having Brian McCann at back up catcher would be the only way to top the Red Sox powerhouse this year.
Ghost, and I remember Garcia helping Nova out in ST – I love the guy.
I’m extremely torn. I’m excited for Phil to come back, but I don’t think he’ll be that great. I think he needs to be given a spot and just allowed to pitch, but I think he’d be a better pitcher if he stays in the minors to work on the things he needs to work on.
The points are simple to understand. Noesi is 24, there is no rush to fast track him anywhere, the objective is to win in New York not worry about Noesi’s development, the Yankees like having Noesi in the role he has right now.
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If there is no rush to fast track him, why is he pitching in the major leagues???
I’d trade AJ for a bag of stem cells.
Complete the following sentence:
When I see Cliff Lee throw a complete game shut out against the Sox it makes me feel…….
RS June 28th, 2011 at 11:04 pm
Girardi has used Noesi for 1 inning in close games before. The middle game against the Cubs was one, for example. I think after his last rough outing against Cincy, Girardi wanted to get him back out there in a low pressure situation just to get his feet under him again. You want to see that he has the ability to bounce back, and now that he’s shown that, I don’t think Girardi will hesitate to use him in a set-up role.
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He also used Noesi in the extra inning game (the in which Girardi pulled Colon, only to see the bullpen blow the lead.) This example isn’t directly applicable, but Noesi is clearly the kind of guy you want in a tight game, because he wants the ball. However, this doesn’t necessarily imply that Grardi ought to use Noesi to protect a small late-inning lead; for that we have Robertson and Rivera (and whoever else steps up).
Well that’s not “it”, WC……….I think the Yankees have no clue how to develop pitching and it’s going to cost them. It keeps costing them, actually, as they continue to have to sign the AJs of the world. How many times will they be lucky with Colons and Garcias?
When I see Cliff Lee throw a complete game shut out against the Sox it makes me cry with a smile on my face.
LGY June 28th, 2011 at 11:08 pm
The points are simple to understand. Noesi is 24, there is no rush to fast track him anywhere, the objective is to win in New York not worry about Noesi’s development, the Yankees like having Noesi in the role he has right now.
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If there is no rush to fast track him, why is he pitching in the major leagues???
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Fast track him as in have him starting in SWB so he starts in the show sooner.
…..conflicted.
Fast track him as in have him starting in SWB so he starts in the show sooner.
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I’m pretty sure you don’t know what fast tracking a prospect means.
Eh, I despise Cliff Lee after what he said about the Yanks and frankly, now that I think about it, I’m glad we don’t have him and his 7 year contract to deal with.
Betsy, aside from the actual AJ, what other “AJs of the world’ have the Yankees signed recently?
Lee has a 0.27 ERA in 5 starts in June
Betsy-
I really think that Nova has to be the one demoted from the rotation. As good as he has been lately, I think they need to let the veterans stay in the rotatation while letting Phil try to find his important role in the rotation. Nova is young enough to adjust–it is simply more important to have Phil be in there than him, at least until he proves he can’t do it effectively. If Phil falters horribly, they can swap him and Nova at any point. Now, some here will say that will “hinder Nova’s development”, but the fact is, they are not as vested in him as they are in Phil at this point.
Betsy-
What exactly did he say about the Yanks? Was it the wife stuff?
He also used Noesi in the extra inning game (the in which Girardi pulled Colon, only to see the bullpen blow the lead.) This example isn’t directly applicable, but Noesi is clearly the kind of guy you want in a tight game, because he wants the ball. However, this doesn’t necessarily imply that Grardi ought to use Noesi to protect a small late-inning lead; for that we have Robertson and Rivera (and whoever else steps up).
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He used Noesi in extra innings when he had no choice, then while down 4, then in extra innings again. Then when Garcia got knocked out. Then 9 days later when it was decided he wouldn’t replace Colon in the rotation. Then 2 days, then 4 days, then 6 days. Down 1, ahead 1, down 3, ahead 9
REZ12 June 28th, 2011 at 11:05 pm
Garcia has given up 3 runs or less in 12 of 15 starts. He has not given up more than 4 ERs in any of his starts. He has gone at least 6 innings in 11 of 15 starts.
He is the definition of consistency. Not a guy like AJ who will throw a shutout followed by getting bombed followed by 3 ERs followed by 4 ERs followed by a shutout, etc. Garcia’s ERA is highly reflective of his performances game in and out.
And let’s not act like Nova is Banuelos here. He is not that good that he needs to keep his rotation spot over a guy like Garcia. And Nova is a contact pitcher too.
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I agree with each of your points. However, I really think that Nova has a lot of potential. Once he cuts down on his walks, he will become a really solid pitcher. I don’t think that he is very far away at all. In my mind, I think that Nova is slightly ahead of Phil right now.
LGY I have forgotten more baseball than you will ever know. There is no rush to have him starting in SWB to get to NY.
Extra innings pitchers aren’t the A guys. They are the last resort guys because its extra innings
…glad it wasn’t against us?
Looks like I missed a good game. I knew we were winning, but didn’t see the Sox lost until I got home. Good times.
LGY I have forgotten more baseball than you will ever know.
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I think you should see a doctor.
LGY I have forgotten more baseball than you will ever know. There is no rush to have him starting in SWB to get to NY.
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You should probably try remembering all that baseball you forgot so you stop looking so dopey.
Nick, just mediocre veterans – Wright, etc… Every year, their rotation has to undergo some kind of sea change- they have very little stability.
Straw, I think that’s how the Yankees will view it. If Nova has to go to the pen, it’s not the end of the world – it’s not permanent. Unlike Phil, he already has the pitches and so being in the pen won’t stunt him. If Phil is recalled, then he’s going to be up here even if he struggles some. The only way I see him being pulled is if he’s just terrible. If he’s healthy and terrible, then I forsee him being sent to AAA for the rest of the year.
Cliff said we were old. And basically not championship caliber. Okay, I made the second part up. But he intimated it.
Tyler, I’m sorry, I’m confused. Wife stuff?
“In my mind, I think that Nova is slightly ahead of Phil right now.”
Agree with that.
I just happen to be right – you are just argumentative. Funny how on issues like Joba, Noesi, Cervelli, etc., Yankees management happens to agree with me and not you.
Why is it a good thing to have a really bad memory? That seems like a silly way to pump yourself up and probably a good reason to be medicated.
Personally I would go with, I remember more baseball than you will ever know!!
Oh Lee…….yeah, he said he never considered signing here because he felt the Yankees were too old and just not as good as the Sox.
…Long for what might have been.
Ghost, well Nova is more of a pitcher and Phil is a thrower at this time. I know Phil has rep of being smart, but I don’t really see it. I mean, he just throws the same 2 pitches all the time.
If you have forgotten more baseball than I will ever now, couldn’t I know more baseball than you right now since you have forgot so much stuff?
‘as they continue to have to sign the AJs of the world’…………………….
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The only ‘one’ other than AJ (if you are referring to high dollar contracts) would be CC and he is an ACE.
m June 28th, 2011 at 11:18 pm
Cliff said we were old. And basically not championship caliber. Okay, I made the second part up. But he intimated it.
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For the last threee years, we keep hearing how Cliff Lee was supposedly the key, the difference maker, the one that could swing the balance of power in MLB. Yet here we are 2 years later, and Lee still doesn’t have a WS rings. He can talk about championship caliber, when he figures out how to win one for himself.
And it never occurred to you that the Yankees can be wrong? They have made mistakes in the past you know – just like every organization.
Ghost, well Nova is more of a pitcher and Phil is a thrower at this time. I know Phil has rep of being smart, but I don’t really see it. I mean, he just throws the same 2 pitches all the time.
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All Nova throws is a fastball and a curveball. Get serious.
Betsy, didn’t you champion the AJ signing at the time?
Anyway, since the ink dried on AJ’s contract, they haven’t given a big money deal to any other aging vets, just short term stuff. Wright preceded AJ.
I will grant you that they tried to give a huge contract to Cliff Lee, but I wouldn’t put him in the same category as AJ or call him a mediocre veteran. No way to know how he would’ve worked out as a Yankee. They’re probably going to extend CC, but he’s not a mediocre vet either.
I think they’re on the right track developing their own pitching. Plus I think AJ will win tomorrow.
Nova is only slightly ahead of Phil this year in results. Let’s not forget, Phil has a ton of playoff experience as both a starter and a reliever, including important games in 2007, 2009 and last year. Nova simply doesn’t have enough experience in high pressure situations to justify bumping Phil out of a spot, unless Phil returns and pitches truly, truly crappy.
Betsy June 28th, 2011 at 11:21 pm
And it never occurred to you that the Yankees can be wrong? They have made mistakes in the past you know – just like every organization.
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Sure it occurs to me and from my evaluation they are not wrong. Joba should not be starting, Montero should not be brought up, Cervelli is not currently hurting this team and the most important thing is winning in NY not developing players.
Nick, yes…..but I thought he’d turned a corner. He’s just not that good.
No of course Lee doesn’t fall in that category………….but as we discussed earlier today, the Yankees are always looking for some 2nd ace to back up CC (or at least a very good #2) and that’s almost impossible to find nowadays. Garcia and Colon have been god-sends, but you can’t count on that kind of luck all the time.
As Noesi is presently being the long man out of the pen how exactly is that considered ‘fast tracking’ him ? He is getting his feet wet at the ML level in non pressure situations for the most part.
Maybe Cliff Lee will sign with the Heat?
Yeah, Jared Wright is ancient history.
TheStraw June 28th, 2011 at 11:23 pm
Nova simply doesn’t have enough experience in high pressure situations to justify bumping Phil out of a spot, unless Phil returns and pitches truly, truly crappy.
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Perhaps. But has Phil shown us enough to justify bumping Nova out of his slot in the rotation. After all, This is really what we are talking about. The answer to this question isn’t so clear to me (even taking into account all of your points.) At this pont, I would stick with what’s working, and not upset the apple cart.
We can’t even assume that Nova would pitch this well in the 2nd half. Teams will adjust to him and he’ll have to adjust back. Phil never did – would Nova?
Jerfkace, I’m plenty serious.
As Noesi is presently being the long man out of the pen how exactly is that considered ‘fast tracking’ him ?
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He is in the majors. Why not let Montero get his feet wet in low pressure situations?
Phil never did – would Nova?
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Phil adjusted well enough to handle a variety of teams, including the red sox, and the twins in the playoffs.
Ghost, Phil did not lose his spot in the rotation – he just got hurt. Now he may return and the Yankees are not going to Wally Pipp him.
Lots of complaining about our young pitchers on the ML roster. Too think that The Yankees are 15 games over .500 for the first time this year.
Who would have thought.
“Phil has a ton of playoff experience as both a starter and a reliever, including important games in 2007, 2009 ”
Hughes has a 5.86 career ERA in the postseason, including an 0-3 ALCS record with a 9.53 ERA.
He’s actually been good in the ALDS though.
Jerfkace, do you remember when people would get on Clemens for only beating teams in the playoffs when there was no pressure? Like game 4 of the 1999 WS? That’s how I feel about Phil. Ok, he beat a toasted Twins team and then got brutalized against the Rangers. IMO, he’s not a guy I would trust on the mound in a big spot…………..
Theres never not pressure in the playoffs.
It’s already been determined that Hughes is going right back into the rotation, that’s not a question. The only question is who will go to the pen, Nova or Garcia and I think it should be and will be Garcia.
Of course, all the above could change based on injury and performance.
He pitched his ass off in an elimination game against the Indians.
‘We can’t even assume that Nova would pitch this well in the 2nd half’.
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Yet how can you assume that he will pitch worse ? ? He just may continue to gain experience and get better and better.
I’m going to bed happy knowing we stomped on the Brewers and sent a fine young Pitcher to an early shower.
You can continue to argue all you want but I will have sweet dreams.
See you all tomorrow.
Ghost-
They have to find out while it is still early enough in the season to prevent the apple cart from being truly upset, assuming the doctors clear him and he’s healthy. But if he is healthy and can return to form, it’s a grit problem to have. Would much rather have Nova and Noesi as long men in the pen than Carlyle or Pendleton.
I personally would love to see them put Hughes in the bullpen upon his return. He is too risky for slotting into starting role during a pennant race. Let’s see him for a few turns out of the pen, and if sharp, work him back to starting. I don’t think the team owes him anything, and he should earn his role. I also don’t believe putting him in pen ends his development for the future.
Anyway–good win tonight. Tomorrow is another day, another game, and another win!
Good night folks and enjoy the evening.
UPDATE, 7:21 p.m.: I’ll say this much for Nyjer Morgan: That ball off Ramiro Pena’s chest followed by the throw into the dirt by Eduardo Nunez is still the worst play I’ve ever seen in professional baseball. Morgan’s stumble might be second, but that Pena/Nunez play was kind of hilarious. Anyway, it’s 2-0 Yankees in the first.
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Chad, why? The ball was hit hard and took a nasty hop, so off Pena’s chest was not a bad play. And Nunez just started to throw the ball and decided against it mid-throw. That looked funny but I wouldn’t call it a bad play.
“IMO, he’s not a guy I would trust on the mound in a big spot…………..”
But would you trust AJ? Nova? Garcia with his stuff against a good lineup on a cold night?
Colon perhaps if he keeps it up for the rest of the year would be trustworthy, but other than CC, it is a whole lot of question marks in the postseason.
Betsy-
Did you forget that he bailed Clemens out in a must win game vs. Cleveland after the midges game?
Why not let Montero get his feet wet in low pressure situations?
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Totally different for a hitter and a RP who is the long man. Besides Yankee Mgmt. has deemed Montero not ready for the ML yet or he would already be here especially with Cervelli being horse dung.
That’s fine, Jerkface- did you say that about Roger? Either way, Phil’s track record in the playoffs (and when did he face the Sox?) is not that good. He was awful in 2009 and terrible in against the Rangers. Anyway, I’m consistent – I don’t think he’s that good of a pitcher, so it’s not like his performances surprised me.
Betsy June 28th, 2011 at 11:30 pm
Ghost, Phil did not lose his spot in the rotation – he just got hurt. Now he may return and the Yankees are not going to Wally Pipp him.
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Waiting for an opportune moment to work Phil back into the mix is not Wally Pipping him. The team is on a roll, and the starting pitching has been a big part of the reason why. I wouldn’t monkey with it, until a clear opportunity presented itself. At the end of the day, the Yanks are dealing with a very nice quandary: They have a wealth of pitching, and need to figure out how to use it to their best advantage. It’s nice to have six pitchers for five slots.
ET, I only trust CC, that’s it.
Straw, that was 3 and a half years ago. At the time, I thought the kid had ice water in his veins………but he’s not the same pitcher.
I think it would be Nova that moved out to make a spot for Hughes.
However, I think Hughes needs to show a lot in his minor league rehab starts before he is given his spot back.
Wang and CC had been awful in the postseason early in their careers, too. It’s too early to paint a picture of Phil Hughes’ career.
West Coast Yankee Fan June 28th, 2011 at 11:32 pm
I second that motion. Don’t hinder Nova’s development by putting him in the pen. Garcia and his garbage will be fine in the pen until we have an injury.
That’s fine, Jerkface- did you say that about Roger? Either way, Phil’s track record in the playoffs (and when did he face the Sox?) is not that good.
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He faced them right before the playoffs in 2010, in the 2nd half, he adjusted the hell out of them and lost like 1-0.
Vineyard, why don’t you go find where I said he’d pitch worse. Someone has to go…………….and if you don’t agree with me about Nova being maybe the one, then fine.
If Hughes has his good FB, he will be fine. It’s when he doesn’t that things will get hairy.
Don’t hinder Nova’s development by putting him in the pen.
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The same should go for Noesi. Nova was brought up in 2010 in an emergency to pitch out of the pen and was sent right back to the rotation.
‘I don’t think he’s that good of a pitcher’
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18 wins last year so send him to San Diego or Oakland. Then he will be out sight, out of mind.
Yeah, I remember that game last year………great job. Then he proceeded to get torched in the playoffs against the Rangers. I’m not sure what we’re arguing. If you think he’s a good big game pitcher, you’re certainly entitled to think that. We’re not going to agree………..but then we don’t agree about Phil overall, so this is no surprise.
Betsy-
Have to disagree. It’s way too early in his career to make that statement. He may prove to be the second coming of AJ (good stuff, bad decisions), but he may also follow the oath of Andy, who was also inconsistent his first few years.
Betsy June 28th, 2011 at 11:36 pm
“I don’t think he’s that good of a pitcher, so it’s not like his performances surprised me.”
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Before he got injured, in 2009 (age 23) and 2010 (age 24) Hughes was 26-10 with a 3.61 ERA.
That’s not a good pitcher?
Straw, no problem with you disagreeing; different strokes for different folks. If he develops his curve again, I think he could be a nice middle of the rotation type pitcher……….but right now, he’s a 2 pitch guy who has serious HR problems.
Betsy,
I think some of the Hughes stuff you’re saying is bizarre. You’re admitting he’s a thrower and not a good pitcher yet you’re championing him to take Nova’s spot in the rotation while saying Nova is more of a pitcher.
I get it. You’re a massive Hughes fan and you don’t want to see him struggle. But if Colon pitches healthy and no one breaks down by the time Hughes is ready I don’t think any of these guys should lose their rotation spot to Hughes.
The Yankees are not going to sacrifice wins to let Hughes go out and take his lumps in the hopes they develop what was once there. It’s basically July and they are in a penant race w/2 other teams. The Yankees don’t want be 3rd behind Boston and TB because Phil was grandfathered a spot regardless of results.
The best thing Hughes can do is pitch well and throw with velocity the entire time he’s on the mound. He is not equipped to be a major league starter with any kind of diminished velocity.
I don’t think the Yankees will pull Nova, Garcia or Colon from the rotation for Hughes. The only thing I can see happening is some ridiculous 6 man rotation where they keep CC and AJ on their regular rest and let the other guys pitch with more rest.
The other thing that could happen if the Yankees trust Hughes and believe he can win again is they could trade Nova since he’s very marketable.
But I don’t think if this team is winning and the pitchers are giving length the Yankees will take one of the 5 out of the rotation to see what Hughes has UNLESS Hughes is unbelievable in his remaining rehab starts.
Enough of the don’t hinder their development nonsense. The Yankees front office’s job is to put the best 25 men on the field each year, while at the same time finding a way to develop players in the system. You don’t put dog meat on the roster if you can avoid it.
WC, we have been through this over and over again. He pitched to a 5 ERA in the 2nd half……..and no, I will not discount his starts against the Jays. He didn’t adjust – what’s there to dispute? He gave up a ton of HRs and struggled mightily to put hitters away. He’s ok IMO, that’s it. If you are upset that I feel this way, then I’m sorry and we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Betsy June 28th, 2011 at 11:40 pm
‘We can’t even assume that Nova would pitch this well in the 2nd half’.
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Based on your statement above of Nova ‘NOT’ pitching this well in the 2nd half then you are insinuating that he will pitch at a lower level (worse) than he is presently, no ?
Am I missing your point ?
As for the game tonight, this team is on fire. To go out and hand Greinke his lunch like that was impressive since most thought Greinke would own them.
And Freddy Garcia has been more than we could have asked for. If Garcia and Colon finish the year the way they have started, Cashman should get exec of the year hands down. These are guys no one wanted and they are 2/5ths of the rotation for the team with the best record in the AL right now.
Right now it would be CC in game 1, then I’d go Colon and Garcia but it should be AJ and then Phil.
I’m really hoping Phil shocks us all.
AJ makes mediocre look bad. He’s like the pitching version of Giambi. He’s a nice guy so you tolerate him but you can’t wait for that contract to expire.
‘Then he proceeded to get torched in the playoffs against the Rangers’.
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I believe he got torched due to his loss of velocity and command and then the dead arm thing carried over to the year.
Jeers,
Agree with you on AJ. I would give Colon, Garcia and Nova the ball before him in the post season easily.
GLove, I am not a massive Hughes fan so let’s drop that notion.
I do not think anything I’ve said is bizarre and I don’t think that’s fair of you at all. I said he’s not THAT good – he’s ok. That’s a HUGE difference between that and saying he’s not any good, which is what you’re implying I said.
The Yankees have invested a lot in Phil and I don’t think he deserves to lose his job. I think he’s capable of being fairly solid and that’s all they need (we all know they are not going to find a frontline starter before the deadline). IMO, since they are not going to keep him in AAA, which would be fine with me, the rotation is the only place he belongs – NOT the pen.
Considering how you’ve posted some angry things about Phil recently, I don’t get your comments.
You are the one making it sound like Phil is going to go out there and get his head handed to him
G. Love June 28th, 2011 at 11:43 pm
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Well said. I think that you hit the nail right on the head:
“The Yankees are not going to sacrifice wins to let Hughes go out and take his lumps in the hopes they develop what was once there. It’s basically July and they are in a penant race w/2 other teams. The Yankees don’t want be 3rd behind Boston and TB because Phil was grandfathered a spot regardless of results.
The best thing Hughes can do is pitch well and throw with velocity the entire time he’s on the mound. He is not equipped to be a major league starter with any kind of diminished velocity.
I don’t think the Yankees will pull Nova, Garcia or Colon from the rotation for Hughes. ”
My guess is that they bring back Phil into the ‘pen, and let him earn his way back to the rotation. He responded well to a a bullpen assignment last time, and I think that he’ll thrive there again. Moving Nova out and Phil into the rotation has too many moving parts: They might screw up both of them doing that. Moving Garcia (or Colon), arguably the Yanks second-best starter(s) this year, to the ‘pen makes very little sense. So, I think Phil is just going to have to wait his turn.
At least AJ helped us win a title. #giambihadthatmustachethinggoingforhim
Betsy June 28th, 2011 at 11:45 pm
WC, we have been through this over and over again. He pitched to a 5 ERA in the 2nd half……..and no, I will not discount his starts against the Jays. He didn’t adjust – what’s there to dispute? He gave up a ton of HRs and struggled mightily to put hitters away. He’s ok IMO, that’s it. If you are upset that I feel this way, then I’m sorry and we’ll have to agree to disagree.
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So the second half of last year when he may very well have had some tired arm issues negates what he has done for two years?
I don’t understand how can you dispute that 26-10 with a 3.61 ERA is not very good.
correction – is very good
If Hughes pitches with velocity and command in rehab he will go the rotation. He needs innings.
You’re counting his time in the pen, WC? I’m talking about as a starter. We’re not going to agree on this. You think he’s very good, I don’t. It’s as simple as that. We’re going to have to wait and see how it plays out.
Moving on……….
Hughes upside > Nova’s upside. Nova isn’t even league average right now. Hughes future with the yankees > Garcia’s future with the yankees, one of them has one the other doesnt.
Rehab can take up to 30 days, so its not like they don’t have time to sort things out. I really doubt the end result is Hughes in the pen though.
Also, you’re going to use the tired arm? I’m going to say he struggled because he didn’t have anything to turn to once his FB wasn’t so lively. Whatever – he’s not ready and won’t be for awhile, so this is all premature.
We’re just discussing it Betsy – don’t be so dismissive. People challenge others here all the time and you talk incessantly about Hughes so defend your position like others defend theirs.
So the second half of last year when he may very well have had some tired arm issues negates what he has done for two years?
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Hughes velocity was normal last year. Even in the playoffs. He had consistency issues, but that is to be expected it was the first time he pitched over 140 innings in a while. He may have been tired, but his arm didn’t lack the life like this year.
He obviously hit a wall of some sort – call it a tired arm or what you want to. He was 24 years old and clearly has the physical tools. Why do you insist on passing judgment on him so easily? What do you know that the Yankee organization doesn’t know?
I do tend to think Phil is going to go out there and get his head handed to him and I don’t want to see that happen.
He had a good couple of months to start the season last year and morphed into a stubborn mediocre pitcher who just pumped straight fastballs.
As for calling what you’re saying bizarre, I guess that is poor choice of words. I just think it’s strange that in one breath you say he’s not a pitcher and a thrower and in the next breath say he should take a rotation spot away from a guys who is more of a pitcher. The job is starting pitcher. Not starting thrower. The Yankees owe Hughes nothing. He has to earn it again.
I honestly don’t want Hughes in this rotation unless he’s lights out in the rehab starts. If his velocity can’t last for 100 pitches he has no business being in this rotation.
That said, let’s see where he is at the end of the rehab assignment. Maybe he’ll get it all back and then some. I just have my doubts.
I have a weird feeling that if his results are not off the charts, Cashman might option him to AAA if that’s an option to continue to build up arm strength.
There I agree with you that spending some time in the minors working on the rest of his repetoire might be the best thing for him.
The worst thing would be he’s handed back a rotation spot, he loses 3 straight starts and the Yankees lose games in the standings. Outside of a few prospect huggers, fans would have little patience watching that happen.
Jerkface June 28th, 2011 at 11:56 pm
Hughes upside > Nova’s upside. Nova isn’t even league average right now. Hughes future with the yankees > Garcia’s future with the yankees, one of them has one the other doesnt.
Rehab can take up to 30 days, so its not like they don’t have time to sort things out. I really doubt the end result is Hughes in the pen though.
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Something will come up that will make this all a moot point. Let’s just hope that it’s not Sabathia going down with some sort of injury.
Ghostwriter,
I agree with you. These things always do work themselves out. Most of this debate is centered on the rotation and Hughes being completely healthy and usually teams are not that lucky. That said, let’s hope it’s not CC. He’s irreplaceable.
Jerkface June 28th, 2011 at 11:58 pm
So the second half of last year when he may very well have had some tired arm issues negates what he has done for two years?
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Hughes velocity was normal last year. Even in the playoffs. He had consistency issues, but that is to be expected it was the first time he pitched over 140 innings in a while. He may have been tired, but his arm didn’t lack the life like this year.
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His walks (and HRs allowed) spiked as the season wore on, particularly in August and September. The loss of control is suggestive of fatigue, moreso than the velocity.
Man that Rays game was crazy good. Too bad Longoria walked off.
G’ night, all!
WC, first of all, I talk about Phil when he comes up in conversation. What are you doing, keeping track with a calculator? We all talk about Phil. The point is we’ve made our arguments and we’re not going to agree- I’ve no interest in going round and round about it as it’s a waste of time.
Anyway, you talk dismissive? Take a look at your post from 11:59 pm. You can’t deal with another opinion and now you’re getting rude. So, have a nice night. I’m not going to argue with you.
I can deal with another opinion, I do all the time. You just have this obsession with Phi Hughes for some reason and you can’t defend your position.
Good night all.
GLove, because really, what are the options? The Yankees are not going to keep him in AAA to work on becoming a better pitcher and I don’t think he should be put in the pen……….What do you want to do with him that’s a realistic option that the Yankees might look at?
How do you want him to earn his spot back?
As to velocity, he has to maintain 91-93 for the game… even if it means starting off at 93 and dropping by the 4th. That’s his MO – Phil can’t maintain his velocity as some can. The idea is that he’s still in his good range……
Something will come up that will make this all a moot point. Let’s just hope that it’s not Sabathia going down with some sort of injury.
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And why is AJ so damn healthy all of a sudden? He could have a hundred starts as a Yankee by the end of this season! Never came close in any 3 year period prior. Why are we so lucky?
I was at the barber shop today, and some man, whom didn’t seem to have an immense amount of knowledge about the game, stated that the big fat man (who had to be told 3 times was CC) was a terrible, god awful pitcher, that doesn’t know how to pitch. And not helping to prove his point, he stated that he was the first 10 game winner this year.
Now, I agree that CC has good command, hard stuff, but not neccesarily nasty stuff, like let’s say Burnett, but his numbers are obviously favored.
Now, while I may agree (if he made this point) that CC doesn’t have nasty stuff, his velocity, command, and pitch selection speak volumes for a successful pitcher.
Right – everyone else can talk about him but I can’t . I have defended my position, but you don’t agree, so you refuse to see. Sweet dreams, lol
AJ may be mediocre, but I’m certainly glad he’s healthy – I wouldn’t wish injury on anyone
AJ has to have 12 wins this season, so he needs all the starts he can get.
Hughes was fine in the second half last year. Anyone who says he wasn’t good doesn’t know baseball and just knows how to look at an ERA. What was his ERA again? 4.90? Relative to the league average last year that’s as good as what Nova has done in the first half this year, when people have been raving about his progress. And he was a ton better than Nova has been. His ERA was skewed by a couple of brutal starts and an inflated home run rate. People forget he may have basically saved the season with his brilliant start against Boston in September at the Stadium.
Hughes is a lot better than anyone in this rotation not named CC, and that’s saying something with the way everyone has been throwing.
As long as he shows he’s healthy and strong, they will find an opening for him. His rotation spot never has been in question and its dumb to think that they would even consider keeping him out for someone like Nova who while I agree is promising has a very long way to go before he’s going to be a rotation staple here.
Runs allowed per game (not ER) in the 2nd half:
6,6,5,5,4,3,3,3,3,2,2,2,1,1,1
I’ll take it from a growing pitcher.