The Big Man on his birthday
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jul 21, 2011 
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My friend Jon is a few years older than me, and I remember him saying that turning 30 wasn’t a big deal. It was turning 31 that made him feel old.
CC Sabathia turns 31 years old today.
He has 171 career wins, the most by any pitcher before their 31st birthday since Catfish Hunter had 202 in 1977. According to Elias, the last pitchers with at least 170 wins before turning 31 are currently in the Hall of Fame: Hunter, Bob Feller, Hal Newhouser, Robin Roberts, Don Drysdale, Juan Marichal, Ferguson Jenkins and Jim Palmer.
Maybe Sabathia will feel like an old man today, but I doubt it. Since May 19 he’s gone 11-1 with a 2.11 ERA, 84 strikeouts and 17 walks. If he’s pitching like an old man, it’s because he’s pitching like Cy Young. And for whatever it’s worth, I didn’t think turning 31 was so bad.
Associated Press photo
Happy Birthday CC !!
So what’s Cashman going to do about the pen. Nothing maybe although this Soriano report was a little disheartening.
“George King of the New York Post reports several people who witnessed the performance in Tampa “weren’t overly impressed” and indicated Soriano needs to improve his location and concentration before he is ready to pitch again in the Bronx.”
Chad – you’re so young,
I don’t remember a thing about turning 31.
Chad-
Try double like me. Then you’ll know what old is. Or ancient.
Joe-
I barely remember yesterday.
–I don’t remember a thing about turning 31.
Sadly, neither do I.
Happy Birthday CC
How come today isn’t a day game? It’s get-away day.
How come today isn’t a day game? It’s get-away day.
–
Home team controls start time, Rays want revenue
I think the most scary thing about Soriano’s signing and subsequent place on this team is that he seems like a completely introverted ticking time bomb.
I’m serious, the guy just exudes the feel that he’s a bit mentally unstable/crazy and that he’d be a nearly impossible player to deal with.
It makes you wonder just how little research Randy Levine did into him before ordering him to be signed to that ridiculous contract.
The Yankees haven’t signed a clubhouse guy quite like this to such a big contract in my lifetime. And that’s saying something when guys like Randy Johnson and Gary Sheffield have come through here.
It was Sorianos first rehab outing…..I wouldn’t make too much of it.
MTU July 21st, 2011 at 12:38 pm
Hi MTU!,
I hope the wife is better today….. you know age is a relative thing…… when i was in my 20′s a 40 year old man look like matusalem… i’m 45 now and 62 is a little kid nowadyas for me, LOL
I don’t remember my 2nd birthday at all
Kick-a-dead-horse repost from last thread-
Present-day benefit of Jeter hitting behind Gardner:
Now that Gardner isn’t hesitating to steal second, first base must hold him on, shortstop or second baseman must break break for second (depending on pitch selection-inside outside), resulting in big hole on the right side for Jeter.
Pitchers will most likely then focus on pitching Jeter inside- Jeter can sit on pulling a pitch he likes or going other way by pulling his hands in.
So hitting Gardner second ends up giving Jeter a more likely pitch selection, opening up holes for him to hit through, and ultimately making him less likely to hit into the high number of double plays he’d been hitting into before he was taken out of the two hole sometime last year IIRC.
Silver lining analysis.
WCYF
Link to Grandy’s comments?
“Now that Gardner isn’t hesitating to steal second, first base must hold him on,”
Yea but they hold on everybody unless the game is a blowout…..
I don’t know if anyone noticed, but Gardner has already taken over the stolen base leader spot. A few days ago, he was in 5th. Now, he’s 1st. That’s progress!
What more can be said about CC except I really don’t think he gets his due as one of the game’s best. He is a horse, a stopper, takes the ball every 5th day (or earlier if needed) and lays it all out there on the line, just a pleasure having him on the team.
Happy birthday CC!
Regarding Soriano, I believe it was a good move signing him due to the uncertainty they had in the BP and the SP at season’s start and Soriano’s recent exceptional performance.
It just has not worked out for him in 2011. The other part about him being a bad fit,,, performing well can make a team brush aside all that crap.
Luis-
The only person around here who is really old is Randy. You can just ask GB about that.
Says he was around for the Dinosaurs.
Me. I’m about as healthy as a guy my age could hope to be.
Still climbing 12,000 foot peaks and hiking all the time. I have no complaints. God has been good to me. Better than I deserve.
And thank you again for your concern about Mrs. MTU. She is fine now.
MLB MLB
Why yes, Dillon Gee did make a Sesame Street audition tape … http://t.co/HFAzW3Y
MTU,
Good to hear, on both fronts, i hope i age well too, so far so good.
Luis-
Most people nowadays do.
They know a lot more about how to take care of their health.
We rank #2 in longevity among the States. Only Hawaii is better.
So if you want to live a long life just move out here.
Read last night, that the Rox were never serious about trading Ubaldo, so much heated discussions for nothing!!! lol
‘Mrs. MTU’
=========
Mike, every time you post that I laugh. Don’t know why but I do.
Luis-
just yanking everyone’s chain, huh ?
GreenBeret7 July 21st, 2011 at 12:52 pm
MLB MLB
Why yes, Dillon Gee did make a Sesame Street audition tape ? http://t.co/HFAzW3Y
**************************
That’s hilarious. Thanks for the link GB.
What is up peoples!
Man that C.C. is growing right in front of our eyes. It seems like it was only yesterday when he was a young 30.
MTU July 21st, 2011 at 12:55 pm
I wish i could, but my wife is a big city girl, so i don’t think i’ll be able to do it at least for while. I do love outdoor life and small towns, it’s a completely diferent experience, people in general is nicer.
VY-
It does sound kind of funny I guess.
I think I started it after hearing Maine Yankee refer to his wife as Mrs. Maine.
MTU July 21st, 2011 at 12:57 pm
Luis-
just yanking everyone’s chain, huh ?
——————————
Yup, trying to stir things up!!!!
Luis-
You have plenty of time to convince her.
I feel the same. Grew up in NYC but I love small town life, and obviously the outdoors.
Quality of life out here is really wonderful if you like that sort of thing.
If he moves Robertson n pits Sori in that would be lunacy
Lets assume we do not upgrade starting pitching this year. Which 4 pitchers start the playoffs?
CC
Colon
?
?
And what month/day will we finally trust that Colon and Garcia are the real deal and can actually pitch like this through out October? I have read its too early to tell for the last 4 months and that teams will figure out Garcia soon enough. Both eras are in the 3′s. I think I had this conversation with Jerkface a few weeks ago of the last time the Yankees had 3 starters with under 4 eras. I think we came up with 01.
JonLaneNYC Comparing Curtis Granderson to top AL MVP candidates http://bit.ly/n7fUfD
Buster_ESPN
Source: The Phillies would prefer to structure any of their Hunter Pence offers around Vance Worley.
MTU,
I allways loved small town life. But have to live in the big city because of work, nowadays i could move, but Mrs Luis is not fond of the idea. Still, she is very nice a comes with me in every vacation i take ( every year thank god ).
“”blake July 21st, 2011 at 12:48 pm
“Now that Gardner isn’t hesitating to steal second, first base must hold him on,”
Yea but they hold on everybody unless the game is a blowout…..”"
Absolutely, Blake. But because Gardner is now more likely to go, first baseman more likely to stay on first longer before a pitch is thrown to hold him on for either pitch out or to cut down Gardner’s lead.
This is a slight but tangible difference from the times Gardner was very hesitant to steal second, while Jeter was batting second, resulting in possibly more double plays.
Remember, this is a game of inches.
# Ace July 21st, 2011 at 1:03 pm
If he moves Robertson n pits Sori in that would be lunacy
———–
I don’t see this as a problem at all.
In fact, it actually works to the Yanks’ advantage because it utilizes Robertson’s best skill, missing a lot of bats, and essentially “demotes” him to the role of a fireman where he has obviously thrived.
Who do you feel better about coming into a hairy situation with runners on base – Soriano or Robertson?
It’s a no brainer.
CC
Colon
?
?
–
Hm
CC
Colon
Burnett
Hughes/Garcia
Its tough, I think Burnett, Hughes, Garcia are all interchangeable for the playoffs in terms of risk. So its the best 2 going into the playoffs.. Hughes could be at the biggest disadvantage because they know he can pitch out of the pen
SoS July 21st, 2011 at 1:05 pm
I think it depends on the opponent. Against texas i would give Garcia a chance, but not against Boston. I think the true x factor is how Hughes performs from here on out. AJ at this point would be the 5th SP.
I like the term “Barn boots”. In my time they were black tops with red soles. You could roll the tops down and become a pirate, roll them up and you could do important things like measure the depth of snow melt puddles. Unfortunately they were always too short to really check things out and then your feet would squeek in those boots going home. Then you got to face your long suffering mom. “You’re soaked to the knees – again”. “Aw mom”.
Go be a pirate in barn boots – It just isn’t the same.
GF – Hi.
That’s exactly what it comes down to, between Robertson and Soriano. At this point in time, I (and apparently Joe) have more trust in Robertson to come through in the clutch, and put out fires.
Luis-
True for many. That’s where the work used to be (
). I try my best to share my love of where I am with whoever might be interested, or is willing to listen. I wish them the same satisfaction as myself.
I have posted numerous photos here. I guess you have seen them.
With Burnett you have to consider his contract unfortunately which can trump performance.
MTU July 21st, 2011 at 1:16 pm
Yes i’ve seen them, and enjoyed them very much. Not without a little envy!!, LOL
SI_JonHeyman
word is #sfgiants gave up nuthin’ for keppinger. #astros did offload nearly a mil. but hou must dump more $
MTU:
Mrs. Maine just doesn’t have the ring to it like Mrs. MTU. I have no idea why, other than perhaps I am nutso.
Baseball is evolving and I think you will see bright managers using “Firemen” for tough situations. Robertson is the perfect “bandit” for those tough spots in the late innings. Those two CUs the other night “Woah”.
Jerkface July 21st, 2011 at 1:17 pm
True, but look at what happened last season. Again i think it will depend on how both Hughes and AJ perform in the stretch run. I’m really hopeful that Hughes can have a monster second half.
Baseball is evolving and I think you will see bright managers using “Firemen” for tough situations.
–
Do you mean de-volving? The existence of the save statistic has ruined firemen and unless they come up with an equally monetized stat for middle relievers I can’t see players going along with manager usage like that.
Relievers try to work up to becoming closers because that is where the money is made and closers only want to pitch in save situations even if a save situation isn’t as important as other situations where they’d be better used.
Luis-
Perhaps you will take one of those vacations out here some time ?
That way you can see it for yourself.
VY-
I will continue the tradition.
Jerkface and others,
Can you see a situation where Burnett is left off the rotation if the other 2 have strong showing the final 2 months. Is it all about the money even in October? Keep in mind I think Burnett has been the most consistent this year that hes been since joining us.
Bo Knows
Barn boots were anything I wore to the barn.
Robertson should be the Fireman AND EIG.
In other words, he should pitch in the highest leverage situations no matter the inning.
What if CC pitches 7 shutout innings in a 1-0 game.
Do you feel comfortable going to Sori over Robertson?
Relievers try to work up to becoming closers because that is where the money is made and closers only want to pitch in save situations even if a save situation isn’t as important as other situations where they’d be better used.
=========
Unless your name is Soriano.
Speaking of Soriano. If he ever reverts back to last years performance. Could this end up being the best bullpen we’ve had in the last 15 years? Better than Riv Wettland Nelson etc.?
What if Robertson puts out a fire with 2 outs in the 7th inning.
Do you go to Sori in the 8th?
Is it all about the money even in October?
–
Yes. Player under contract > Player not under contract if the difference is negligible enough and maybe even with a big performance gap. I’m worried that Hughes has a good 2nd half, and Garcia continues to befuddle pitchers and looks like a clear best option for the 4th playoff starter (its just 1 start) and they end up with Burnett.
My friend Jon is a few years older than me, and I remember him saying that turning 30 wasn?t a big deal. It was turning 31 that made him feel old.
———————————————————————————————————-
When you’re 30, well then you’re just 30.
When you’re 31, well then you’re officially “in your thirties” and your “mid -thirties” is just around the corner.
Do you mean de-volving? The existence of the save statistic has ruined firemen and unless they come up with an equally monetized stat for middle relievers I can’t see players going along with manager usage like that
—————————————
Totally agree. It’s a tough go. Most journalists are “ribbits”. Someone like Cashman could do baseball a favor and reintroduce “Fireman” to the lexicon.
befuddle hitters. And of course the best case is all 3 pitching well. or Cashman brings in a replacement (and gosh who would this replacement even replace. I’d replace Garcia simply because he is the most expendable but his performance has been great)
MTU,
I’ll certainly would love to!!!
MTU July 21st, 2011 at 1:22 pm
Jeers-
I’ve been turning 21 for a looooong time. You ?
If the Yankees win today they leave Tampa with an 8 game edge in the Wildcard race. I can’t see Tampa or Anaheim overcoming an 8 game deficit to catch the Yankees or Boston.
That would mean that Girardi can be liberal in giving players a day off during the dog days and then can still make a run at Boston in September.
“Robertson should be the Fireman AND EIG.”
Totally agree but that’s against the rules of Binderism…..so I would rather Soriano just porc the 8th and let Robertson get out of jams and pitch the toughest outs.
Luis-
Upstate Kate has visited the area. Ask her what she thought some time.
I offered my services. She just didn’t like drinking beer all that much and preferred hiking advice.
We have 5 Nat’l parks within 150 miles.
SoS July 21st, 2011 at 1:23 pm
Yes it’s about the money, unless Burnett bombs like last year. Again it also depends on how Hughes performs from here on out.
JF,
Good point
Im not sure Soriano has ever been as good in his entire career as Robertson is right now……but that’s besides the point. I want them both pitching well and Soriano is liable to pout if he isn’t the nominal set up man. Therefore Id just let him have the easier role of pitching a clean slate 8th and let Robertson get the really tough outs……
Robertson is one of those “Transformers”. He can can do it all.
Like a Swiss army knife.
Detroit DFAs Inge?
Barn boots were anything I wore to the barn.
——————————–
Ahh, you mean “sh+t kickers. That term I’m familiar with, as well. In passing, all good hockey players came from farms. Milking cows developed wrists. Technology ruined wrist shots.
Robertson overwhelmed the heart of the Rays lineup last night and didn’t throw a single pitch other than a fastball……..
MTU
Will do. I must say you are a lucky…..LOL, wow i would love to live there!
Hitters already had the power curve in the back of their minds…..now they have a changeup to think about as well……
burrentt had a rough outing after his extended break from the all star break…
so did garcia, team lost…
colon… team lost,
burrent, kept team in it, and team won,
burrentt would have to be the 3rd starter after colon if the season was at the end today
edit: “can”. Not “Can can”. As far as I know Robertson does work in caberets in his spare time.
Sorry.
On the Robertson front, i think he should be groomed to be the heir of you know who
If you’re thinking post-season chances are Garcia is the odd man out. Power pitching generally rules the day in cold weather. tough for “touch” guys and Garcia is now purely a touch guy.
I don’t expect Soriano to be automatically slotted into the 8th inning role until he demonstrates he’s at his best. Robertson is going so well right now he has to get a lot of work no matter what.
Betcha Garrison is having a blast. MLB check, meal money and upscale hotel and he has about as much pressure on him as Cal Ripken’s back up during the streak.
Or you could put Soriano in Mitres role and try to make him opt out…..
Blake-
MAKE D-ROB a STARTER.
Doc Iac July 21st, 2011 at 1:37 pm
As of right now, yes…..that’s why we’ll have to wait and see how Hughes performs….having said that if Burnett is the 3rd Sp he should be with a very short leash
RAB has a post on Danks as a potential trade target….I don’t think they’ll sell though because they’ll likely still be in it 2 weeks from now……
Or you could put Soriano in Mitres role and try to make him opt out…..
——————————
Number one post, today. I like your thinking.
Hopefully no day off for Granderson today – it would be nice to try and win this series instead of settling for a kissing your sister split
Happy Birthday to the big man, who’s having a spectacular year
MTU July 21st, 2011 at 1:40 pm
Not a bad idea, but i don’t think he has the phisical make up to withstand the rigors of starting, i could be wrong though
Chad,
One day you’ll wish you could be 31 or 35, or even 41!
Happy birthday to CC. He’s definitely won me over, and I appreciate him more with each outing. He’s a significantly healthy career so far.
Best wishes and continued good health to CC!
MTU,
Robertson has the arsenal….he really has 4 pitches now. 4 seam, curve, cutter, change. The first 3 are really good…..I’ve only seen the CU twice but it looked ok as well. Question would be stamina and I really don’t know enough about his history to know if its realistic or not. As for now…..he’s one of the best short relievers in baseball and has to be considered the frontrunner to succeed Mo if/when he hangs them up.
luis, agreed, short leash
im just sayin hes pitched decent this yr, good enuff to be a number 3 starter in the playoffs, unless someone steps up or they add someone better
Betsy-
“kissing your sister split”.
Interesting turn of phrase. Haven’t heard that one.
Danks would be a great get, but young talented inexpensive lefty starters are very valuable and thus very costly.
Plus I have a distant connection to the family and there’s strong belief that he will head to his home state of Texas as soon as F.A. arrives after next season. I’d be vary of trading for him unless you could get an extension signed.
MTU,
blake July 21st, 2011 at 1:42 pm
If that’s the case, what doyou think would be the cost to adquire him?
“kissing your sister split” sounds like an adult movie title
Robertson was a reliever in college and all through the minors. No way they would try to screw him up by asking him to do something he hasn’t done in a decade or more.
MTU, it’s not too bad, considering I haven’t had my lunch yet, lol. I really don’t want the Yankees to go for the jugular- Grandy can have a day off tomorrow. Knowing Joe, he’s going to give him the day off.
Blake/Luis-
I was only half-serious.
They have enough SP for the moment.
The stuff is certainly there. That’s kind of what I meant. They wouldn’t do it. Tremendous right where he is.
86,
Yea he’s really good…..but you’d only be guaranteed to have him the rest of this year and next so you’d bid accordingly.
86w,lol – it does, now that I think about it…….well, nothing like adult movies to spice up a hot, boring afternoon
Doc Iac July 21st, 2011 at 1:45 pm
Yes, he has pitched as reliable as he could be, but i don’t think he has been our third best starter
If it’s against the Sox, don’t even bother throwing Burnett out there. I’d take my chances with Garcia.
Luis,
If they made him available…..not as much as Ubaldo but it would still hurt. One of the top guys would have to be in the deal Id imagine.
Jeers-
Your post got eaten.
It may sound crazy but if Boone Logan ever developed an off-speed pitch he could be a closer candidate for a big league team.
His FB has life and with his changed arm slot, the slider is proving to be a tougher pitch for left-handers to deal with.
The question is how bad does the Boone-meister want closer or set up dollars or is he comfortable making LOOGY bucks….
“If it’s against the Sox, don’t even bother throwing Burnett out there. I’d take my chances with Garcia.’
I think the opposite. Its gotten to the point where he’s due to get them one of these days.
Bo knows July 21st, 2011 at 1:35 pm
Barn boots were anything I wore to the barn.
——————————–
Ahh, you mean “sh+t kickers. That term I’m familiar with, as well. In passing, all good hockey players came from farms. Milking cows developed wrists. Technology ruined wrist shots.
————————————————————————————
Are you speaking from experience?
MTU July 21st, 2011 at 1:48 pm
True, but who knows if they try it next year??, i wouldn’t but who knows?
Garcia is a bad matchup for the Sox…..they wont chase his slop and he can’t get ahead and expand like he does against other teams.
Robertson is our best candidate to replace Mo one day.
4 months ago I would have said that of Soriano, but with his spotty health history and current issues, Robertson is looking like a real possibility.
Be prepared, no matter who replaces Mo, it won’t be the same. We could go through 5-6 closers over the same period Mo’s been doing it.
Blake-
For Danks:
Romine, Nova/Noesi, Warren, +
You do it ?
I’d much rather see Garcia than Burnett against the Sox………….I’ve had MORE than enough of AJ against that team for one and for another, Garcia is quite a bit better than he is.
Be prepared, no matter who replaces Mo, it won?t be the same. We could go through 5-6 closers over the same period Mo?s been doing it.
Or 10
MTU July 21st, 2011 at 1:57 pm
Blake-
For Danks:
Romine, Nova/Noesi, Warren, +
You do it ?
———————————–
I would, i don’t think sox would do it though
Luis-
probably right.
Jeers-
Your post got eaten.
————————————————
Ooops. Blame it on dementia.
MTU,
Yes…..I get a good Lefty and keep my top 3 prospects. That’s a pretty strong package but I bet they’d want more.
Isn’t Danks the one with the bad walks rate?
The more I think about, the more I believe that the Rockies/Yankees rumors will prod other GMs to call about our assets.
Jerkface July 21st, 2011 at 1:22 pm
Baseball is evolving and I think you will see bright managers using “Firemen” for tough situations.
–
Do you mean de-volving? The existence of the save statistic has ruined firemen and unless they come up with an equally monetized stat for middle relievers I can’t see players going along with manager usage like that.
Relievers try to work up to becoming closers because that is where the money is made and closers only want to pitch in save situations even if a save situation isn’t as important as other situations where they’d be better used.
———————————————————————————————–
JF,
The concept of the save is a really an odd phenomenon.
What started out as a measuring stick created by a sportswriter to give credit to relief pitchers, has devolved into a complete restructuring of the way the game is played based upon the lucrativeness of accumulating the statistic for a given player.
It wouldn’t be such a bad thing, but all too often, being credited with save doesn’t accurately depict the most substantial contributions of a bullpen in a given game.
Unfortunately, managers are being forced to manage in such a way to maximize the save for a small number of relievers, regardless of whether or not their value would be maximized by pitching in other innings besides the 9th.
The same problem is occurring with this fallacy about the need for an “8th inning guy.”
Betsy July 21st, 2011 at 1:57 pm
Look at Garcia’s numbers against the sox this year…..he works with smoke and mirrors, not a good match up against a good a patient line up like the sux. I rather take my chances with Burnett
My ranking:
Kershaw
Ubaldo
Danks
In descending order. deal appropriately.
M,
Possibly.
Luis, after more than half a season, I don’t think Garcia is smoke and mirrors- that implies he’s a fluke. He’s a better pitcher than AJ – maybe neither match up, but I have had enough of AJ blowing up against them. Anyway, really the only pitchers who match up well are Colon and CC……
Look at Garcia’s numbers against the sox this year…..he works with smoke and mirrors, not a good match up against a good a patient line up like the sux. I rather take my chances with Burnett
————
How about Burnett’s numbers against them since joining the Yankees?
While Garcia works with smoke and mirrors, Burnett’s “nasty stuff” clearly poses no problems for the Sox hitters either.
Whichever one of them starts needs to be on a short leash.
*meaning that Cashman would more likely make a reasonable deal while only giving 1 or 2 of the top prospects.
I’m kind if hoping it’s all or nothing. I really don’t want to trade for mediocre players. I don’t think Cashman would do that anyway.
If the White Sox fall apart in the next 2 weeks then I could see a Danks deal maybe happening…..but that division is playing so mediocre…..I don’t know.
Blake-
It is but probably not strong enough.
m-
I think Montero is bait as we speak. Just my theory. Probably wrong.
Pat M. said as much the other day. That was the rumor. I have other reasons for believeing it’s possible.
MTU July 21st, 2011 at 2:03 pm
Even though i agree that Ubaldo might be a better pitcher than Danks….We need a second lefty sp more to counter both Red sux and Phillys offense, which are lefty heavy. That’s why i would put him ahead Jimenez
The Sox may not be the best matchup for Garcia, but more than anything I just think his command abandoned him both times he faced them this season.
Luis-
I based it on stuff only.
Handedness is definitely a consdieration.
Would love a 2nd lefty. It would be hard to turn down U-Jim in the right deal though just because he isn’t a lefty.
MTU,
In all due respect, why in the world would the Dodgers consider trading Kershaw?
Mets-
I wasn’t saying he was available just giving a ranking based on stuff as if they were all available.
Sorry for the confusion.
U-Jim and Danks might be.
MTU,
Sorry, I misunderstood.
Betsy,
What i meant is that he works by expanding the strike zone, a patient line up like the sux will and have killed him. I understand your frustration with AJ, but putting that aside he is a better bet to navigate that line up, i mean none is an ideal option, it;a just pick your poison.
4time,
Agreed
Danks is not the type of LHP that you want vs the Sox because he relies too much on his changeup
Mets-
No problem. I didn’t make it clear.
The changeup is quickly become the go-to pitch in baseball again. How many of the top10 pitchers in the league don’t throw one (and a good one at that)?
Blake-
have you seen kate around ? haven’t seen her post in a while. Was just wondering about her.
This trade deadline is killing me. We usually have a trade done already. At least a good rumor of a player we’re after.
Yes im that guy who opens up a present before christmas and my birthday.
Burnett is terrible againt the Sox. And at Fenway? oh boy is he bad.
MTU,
Uhm…couple.days ago maybe…can’t recall. She’s usually a morning bird.
That’s not saying much BJ, I bet there aren’t too many pitchers in baseball that pitch better in Fenway than away from it.
SoS-
Just open up another bag of M and M’s and hold on.
It will be over soon.
SI_JonHeyman 13 mins if #astros seek as much for wandy as #rockies do for ubaldo, thats absurd. wandy contract $40M thru ’14, ubaldo 1/2 that.
Lol….this kind of stuff is why they suck.
This team really doesn’t have any glaring holes that can be fixed via the trade market without suffering long-term consequences.
More exciting and potentially lucrative would be some of the in-house options available.
MTU,
Can we add Sanchez from the Marlins to your pitchers list. Maybe also Beddard(for all you lefty lovers) if he shows no signs of his knee effecting him in his next start before the deadline.
LGY July 21st, 2011 at 2:14 pm
I don’t know much about Danks, so i’ll defer to you on the subject.
JonLaneNYC Last time CC Sabathia started on his birthday was 2006 w/Tribe v. Twins: 8 R (3 ER), 6 H, 3 2/3 IP, 4 BB, 4 K (L)
burnett is fine against the 3rd starter for the sox,
he could pitch well or not so well, but against buckolzt and below the yankees should be able to put up runs,
and aj could be on just like his august 2009 start against them or WS game 2 against philly, or even game 2 aginst angels in alcs,
hes got it still to put those games up here and there
MTU July 21st, 2011 at 2:19 pm
SoS-
Just open up another bag of M and M’s and hold on.
It will be over soon.
=======
Not cool MTU. Im on a weekday diet right now. Have to wait till Saturday to get some. Thanks for reminding me. And I still believe they had nothing to do with my extra weight I gained. I blame it on this blog for holding me back from being active.
SoS July 21st, 2011 at 2:16 pm
This trade deadline is killing me. We usually have a trade done already. At least a good rumor of a player we’re after.
Yes im that guy who opens up a present before christmas and my birthday
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Maybe they know you do that so they are waiting till the last minute so you’ll be surprised.
SoS-
Sure. I would put Anibal below Danks though.
Why ?
Righty, stuff, injury history.
Bedard.
At the bottom. Mainly due to him having a tendency to break before opening.
I really agree with the others who say they should either go big or not go at all.
Who will end up having a better career when its all said and done. Gardner or Ellsbury? Buchholz or Hughes?
The Mets are Pond Scum July 21st, 2011 at 2:19 pm
Very good post, totally agree on this. But if you could make a deal using lesser prospects, i’ll do it.
SoS,
Bedard has to prove a lot to be on that list, having said that i’m a lefty lover!!!!! lol
SoS-
I love the freakin’ things too. I dare not keep ‘em around.
The Nationals announced that they unconditionally released Chad Gaudin. Earlier in the week, the Nationals designated Gaudin for assignment after recalling him from his rehab assignment and reinstating him from the 15-day disabled list.
Danks has a 4.14 career ERA against the Sox…. 3.32 ERA in 3 career starts at Fenway
I was surprised, I thought those numbers would be worse. Romero, a similar pitcher, gets owned by the Sox because of his overuse of the CH. Guys like them always have inverse splits. Lefties have a career 1.59 WHIP against Danks
Well I’m heading to the Trop again. Need a better outcome than Tuesday night.
I look for Curtis to sit and that along with a righty on the mound for the Rays will get Joe to move Brett to the 1 spot and Jeter to the 2 hole.
I hope that continues but I definitely see it happening at least for this game tonight.
Luis,
The thing, realistically, lesser prospects simply aren’t going to bring much unless the opposing team is involved in a straight salary dump (ie–Bobby Abreu).
Maybe they know you do that so they are waiting till the last minute so you’ll be surprised.
=======
You cant change the rules after all these years. The least they can do is let me hold the box shake it a bit and make sure it isnt socks or underwears.
for my fellow Seinfeld fans:
PeteMcHugh1 23 years ago today, Yankees traded Jay Buhner. http://bit.ly/W8ztS
SoS-
I love the freakin’ things too. I dare not keep ‘em around.
=======
MTU,
Plain or peanuts? Im a peanuts guy unless its on ice cream. Ice Cream gets the plain ones with brownies keeping them company.
Who will end up having a better career when its all said and done. Gardner or Ellsbury? Buchholz or Hughes?
Ellsbury: he’s a more talented, more complete player. Once the blinders are off, I don’t even think this debate is close anymore. That being said, in two years, Gardner will be more valuable because he’ll be making a LOT less since Ellsbury is in his last year of arbitration, has Boras in his pocket, and is in the top ten in about every offensive category right now. I’m surprised Boston hasn’t offered him a contract yet to keep him there awhile like they did with Pedrioa and Lester.
Hughes: his body type lends itself to longer career, though early, and to date, they’re rediculously close in terms of performances/injury since the day there were both drafted. If they’re both healthy, they’ll both pitch well, but Hughes is going to outlast him. (crosses fingers)
SoS
You missed the rumor tat MTU put out there.
He has the Yankees trading half the farm for some guy named Jimmy something.
They have plenty of sox and underwear so I’d hope it was more than that.
Danks strikes me as the kind of guy who could thrive as a Yankee. He’s a competitor, appears to be unfazed by pressure, the type who can handle the big stage and not wilt. I’d have no hesitation slotting him in as a #3 in the rotation and giving him a go.
If I could get a Danks I could trade high on Garcia to a NL team that’s in the hunt in exchange for a bat.
The obvious questions would be availability and cost. The optimism regarding his availability is Danks is having a down year compared to 2010 and the CHW GM isn’t gun shy about making moves.
The bad; I imagine the price tag would include 2 pitchers and Romine.
UnKnown July 21st, 2011 at 2:28 pm
Well I?m heading to the Trop again. Need a better outcome than Tuesday night.
************************
well, if they lose tonight we can officially blame you.
SoS July 21st, 2011 at 2:24 pm
Tough question……Ellsbury has more upside ( fast, power and he is hitting for average ) and is having a career year, if this is his peak i’ll take him over Gardner.
Buckholtz and Hughes is the other way around, but if Hughes doesn’t develop his off speed pitches is Buckholtxz , if he does Hughes 8 days a week
SoS-
Peanuts. Not even close.
That?s not saying much BJ, I bet there aren?t too many pitchers in baseball that pitch better in Fenway than away from it.
————————————————————————–
I’m sure that’s true.
But in the likelihood that there’s a Yankee-Sox ALCS, no way they give AJ the ball @ Fenway unless it’s the only option left.
And he was good as a Jay there but as a Yank I’m pretty sure his ERA is in the double digits.
for my fellow Seinfeld fans:
PeteMcHugh1 23 years ago today, Yankees traded Jay Buhner. http://bit.ly/W8ztS
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SoS July 21st, 2011 at 2:33 pm
MTU,
Plain or peanuts?
*******************
Forgive me, I have to jump in here
1. Dark Chocolate
2. Milk Chocolate
3. Peanut Butter
4. Peanut
5. Pretzel
Bit of an M&Ms addict, can you tell?
Maine-
Let me correct the record for ya’.
His name is Ubaldo.
And it wasn’t my rumor.
Now go back to milking the Cows, or climbing Cadillac Mountain.
Yankee21,
Agreed…..Id love to get him but Im.not sure the White Sox are going to be selling and if they do the price will likely be pretty steep as they have other guys they’d rather deal……but he’d be an awesome get.
Howard,
Ellsbury certainly had more ability as a pure hitter……Gardner is a better outfielder and gets on base more though. Id probably lean Ellsbury as well but if the Gardner we’ve seen recently is real then their values could be closer than it may seem.
gotta disagree, ima body builder with one cheat day a week (sunday)
and every sunday i down a bag of peanut M&M’s, its like a chemical addiction
MTU
:yankingyourchain:
I knew you’d take the bait.
Again, Danks is likely to leave for Texas as a F.A. after 2012. Very risky to give up much for him in a deal. Chisox want to sign him, but he’s not interested, or at least hasn’t been to this point.
Nice reminder about the Ken Phelps/Jay Buhner trade. Upset me at the time, but not as much as Al Leiter for Jesse Barfield. I also hated the Ted Lilly for Jeff Weaver trade the moment it happened.
In the interest of full disclosure I must also admit HATING the Roberto Kelly for Paul O’Neil trade.
Maine-
damn you’re good. Fell for that hook, line and sinker.
Did you teach Gb, or him you ? How would you rank (no pun) Randy ?
Inquiring minds want to know.
The good news is that Casman will not just make a trade for the sake of making a trade……The return of Alex, Chavez will be huge….Move Nunez into the 4th OF / RH DH slot….A Soriano is a key element at this time though
Ellsbury certainly had more ability as a pure hitter??Gardner is a better outfielder and gets on base more though. Id probably lean Ellsbury as well but if the Gardner we?ve seen recently is real then their values could be closer than it may seem.
We aren’t disagreeing. I said they’d be close. But, in the two years Ellsbury has been healthy, he’s been better in every aspect sans defense. He isn’t stealing as many bases this year, but I think that has a lot to do with his power numbers being so up. I think both he and Gardner are going to be priming-out over the next three years, but I believe Ellsbury is just more talented all the way around. If I need a ball caught in the OF (Ellsbury isn’t a slouch either), I go with Gardner, but if I need a ball hit or base stolen, I go with Ellsbury.
86w183,
I also hated the Roberto Kelly for Paul O’Neill trade at the time (and I still believe that Gerald Williams will be a star someday, but not Hensley Meulens).
That, and my problem with Gardner is every few months or so, we’re talking about “if this is the real gardner” and “when Gardner gets hot again” and “why can’t he steal bases”, and on and on and on. He’s so inconsistent from month to month, and needs to learn to find some common ground between the guy we all want in the leadoff, and the guy we all want benched.
Internally this team could promote Romine as the backup catcher (don’t expect a ton of offense), option Cervelli back to AAA, release Andruw Jones and promote Jesus Montero.
Further, they could also give Mitre his release and promote Kevin Whelan.
I suspect you will see Nova back in time for a couple of scheduled doubleheaders and especially if either Bartolo or Freddy struggle with stamina.
Gardner deserves much more appreciation than he actually gets.
Got to go…see yaa at game time….
MTU, Blake, Mets and others very good posts
The most surprising thing about Ellsbury is the power that came out of nowhere. 15 was supposed to be the upper limit on the HRs he’d hit in a season.
Gardner is better than 08 09 Ellsbury, who hits .300 but doesnt get on base as much and is just as weak. Gardner with offense+defense might match 2011 Ellsbury, but if he is a legit .200 ISO hitter going forward it will be tough for Gardner to compete since thats twice as much power as Gardner is going to put out.
“Id probably lean Ellsbury as well but if the Gardner we?ve seen recently”
Case in point. Would any of us not trade Gardner for Ellsbury straight up? I like Gardner, but not that much.
RABFeed Scouting The Trade Market: John Danks http://rab.me/52817
That, and my problem with Gardner is every few months or so, we’re talking about “if this is the real gardner” and “when Gardner gets hot again” and “why can’t he steal bases”, and on and on and on. He’s so inconsistent from month to month
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This is imagined, he is very consistent month to month in 2010 and 2011. He has been good since may this year and was good every month in 2010. His lowest on base month in 2010 was .351! Gardner is great.
I posted last night, he gets cold for like 10 games, but what hitter doesn’t? Who doesn’t go 1 for 16 or 2 for 20 every once in a while? He got hot for 50 games!
Gardner is better than 08 09 Ellsbury
Yes, right now he is. Ellsbury is also a couple years older, more experienced and getting better than he was in 08-09. I’m not taking a crap on Gardner, who I like, but Ellsbury is a better player in every aspect of the game sans defense, which at this point is hard to judge since they’re playing different positions, with Ellsbury playing the harder one.
Gardner is more comparable to Brett Butler than Jacoby Ellsbury. Not inferior, just a different type of player.
He is a better defender than Ellsbury (who is no slouch) and he walks at a much better rate (very significant considering their speed).
Ellsbury is a better hitter with more power, but both are very valuable to their respective teams.
I agree, kinda, Jerkface.
If Gardner ends this year like numbers from last year, and I’d be happy.
Maine
Oh yeah. I have more useless life skills than any five people I know. A frosty morning, a woodpile and a splitting axe. One of life’s finer moments. And so on. If you remember Terry Puhl, that’s where I’m from, that vintage. Hockey and baseball.
JonLaneNYC Former Yankee Chien-Ming Wang close to returning to the Majors http://bit.ly/o8iaY2
but Ellsbury is a better player in every aspect of the game sans defense,
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This isn’t really true. Gardner has considerably more plate discipline and doesn’t get beat down by lefties as much as Ellsbury.
A. I like your name.
B. I agree, though again, would any of us not want Jacoby Ellsbury?
PS – I’m sticking with this, since I think it’ll be NY he ends up playing for in two years.
Am I the only one that sucks the candy coating on the peanut m n m and chews the melted chocolate/peanut after?
If you want to be so skeptical of Gardner’s ability, despite the fact that he has been very good for a year and a half now, and he wasn’t bad in 2009 either, why not be skeptical of Ellsbury this year?
B. I agree, though again, would any of us not want Jacoby Ellsbury?
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I’ll take Gardner over Ellsbury. I don’t want Ellsbury in the future.
The Mets are Pond Scum July 21st, 2011 at 2:49 pm
Gardner deserves much more appreciation than he actually gets.
************
Consistency over an extended period of time will get him that. Just as it did Granderson, who started off terribly last year, turned it around in August, and continued his stellar play this season.
I’m not skeptical, Jerkface. I’ve said repeatedly that I like Garnder, just not as much as Ellsbury. They’re both good players. But, given the choice, I think every GM in baseball takes Ellsbury, and if you disagree, I don’t know what to tell you.
A leadoff hitter who will hit .300 with 20 HRs, 40+ doubles, and 50 steals with good defense? Gardner won’t come close to those numbers. Ellsbury is going to drive in 90 from the leadoff spot.
Gardner is a plucky, gritty little player who gives you good ABs. Ellsbury is a star.
Consistency over an extended period of time will get him that. Just as it did Granderson, who started off terribly last year, turned it around in August, and continued his stellar play this season.
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Gardner has been very good for a longer period of time than Granderson. If you want to use that as a measuring stick then you can’t really diss Gardner.
Face….Who’s the better player then ???? Ellsbury is that’s who
You guys made me feel guilty about all those M and M’s I’ve had.
Therefore I have to split and head to the gym to work some of it off.
Catch you all later.
Ellsbury is a star.
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I’m not buying it.
Ortiz did a phoenix, Buchholz develops sudden power, Hmmm.
I?ll take Gardner over Ellsbury. I don?t want Ellsbury in the future.
Then that’s your opinion. I agree to disagree. I didnt’ say they weren’t close. He asked which was better, and the answer is Ellsbury. Close, yes. Even, no.
SoS July 21st, 2011 at 2:55 pm
Am I the only one that sucks the candy coating on the peanut m n m and chews the melted chocolate/peanut after?
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ummm…yes?
I?m not buying it.
Don’t then. The stats don’t lie.
Theo said this morning that he wants to lock Elssbury up but remember he’s a Boras client.
He’s got two more seassons under team control.
Every GM in baseball definitely takes Ellsbury over Brett Gardner. Gardner’s impact on the game is heavily weighted in rate stats rather than results (totaled) stats.
Look at his total RBI’s. Eduardo Nunez has nearly as many (19 RBI’s).
Look at his total number of hits.
Look at his total number of bases.
His HR total.
His 2b total.
You take that player over Ellsbury and you definitely are someone who reads into rate stats WAYYY to much.
And Ellsbury’s rate stats are far superior on top of it, so I think there is some bias. Ellsbury’s OPS is nearly 100 pt.s higher.
Plus Ellsbury is the leadoff hitter while compiling his stats.
I’ll take Ellsbury.
swbyankeesTT Nick Johnson pinch hitting to lead off the ninth against Carlyle.
A leadoff hitter who will hit .300 with 20 HRs, 40+ doubles, and 50 steals with good defense? Gardner won?t come close to those numbers. Ellsbury is going to drive in 90 from the leadoff spot.
Gardner is a plucky, gritty little player who gives you good ABs. Ellsbury is a star.
Finally. Some common sense. He’s in his career years now, but Gardner isn’t Ellsbury. He won’t hurt you at all, but he isn’t on the same level. Ask any GM in baseball and you’ll get the same, un blindered answer.
Jerkface July 21st, 2011 at 2:58 pm
Consistency over an extended period of time will get him that. Just as it did Granderson, who started off terribly last year, turned it around in August, and continued his stellar play this season.
–
Gardner has been very good for a longer period of time than Granderson. If you want to use that as a measuring stick then you can’t really diss Gardner.
************
I was not comparing the two, only a dunce like you would see it that way. I used Granderson as an example of someone who after success the second half of last year needed to continue that in order to be considered the real deal. Same thing with Gardner.
Don’t then. The stats don’t lie.
–
Good player this year, not a star.
I was not comparing the two, only a dunce like you would see it that way. I used Granderson as an example of someone who after success the second half of last year needed to continue that in order to be considered the real deal. Same thing with Gardner.
-
You missed the point. Gardner came up in 08 and struggled to adjust, adjusted in 09, improved in 2010, and has continued that improvement through 2011. Its a long time period than Granderson turning his season around from 2010 to now. Gardner is good, he doesn’t have to prove anything to you.
Therefore I have to split and head to the gym to work some of it off.
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I thought mother earth was your gym.
Howard July 21st, 2011 at 3:02 pm
A leadoff hitter who will hit .300 with 20 HRs, 40+ doubles, and 50 steals with good defense? Gardner won?t come close to those numbers. Ellsbury is going to drive in 90 from the leadoff spot.
Gardner is a plucky, gritty little player who gives you good ABs. Ellsbury is a star.
Finally. Some common sense. He’s in his career years now, but Gardner isn’t Ellsbury. He won’t hurt you at all, but he isn’t on the same level. Ask any GM in baseball and you’ll get the same, un blindered answer.
**************
I said this in spring training and was typically blasted for it by the mindless sycophants here who couldn’t come to grips with the fact that Ellsbury was hurt. Ellsbury is a star and a better ballplayer than Gardner. There isn’t a GM in baseball that would take Gardner over Ellsbury.
Gardner’s “cold streaks” are exaggerated by the fans and his hot streaks are unappreciated.
His numbers the last two seasons wouldn’t be where they are if his hot streaks didn’t far outweigh his cold streaks.
Pat M. – hi. How did your pool maintenance go today?
Every GM in baseball definitely takes Ellsbury over Brett Gardner. Gardner’s impact on the game is heavily weighted in rate stats rather than results (totaled) stats.
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Its impossible for Gardner to beat Ellsbury’s counting stats because he has 100 less plate appearances. Gardner isn’t going to do as much damage as Ellsbury because I doubt he could put up a 200 ISO but he gets on base just as much and has stolen more bases at a better rate.
Good player this year, not a star.
You’re a funny dude. Is Brett Gardner your cousin or something?
If Gardner had Ellsbury’s stats in eithe of his healthy years, we’d all be clamoring about how awesome he is, and the face of the team, and yada yada.
Ellsbury is a legit 1_A outfielder in every aspect of baseball. You can believe whatever it is you’d like to, but Gardner isn’t on his level. He’s good, but not that good.
They’re both excellent players.
Ellsbury is having what may be the best season of his career right now as opposed to the expected norm.
The comment in regards to Gardner’s RBI’s and other lineup positional stats was both unfair and nearsighted. If Gardner was placed in the leadoff spot fulltime (hopefully sooner than later) and not sat against lefties so often, he will score close to 120 runs in the foreseeable future. That is inevitable when you consider his high OBP and speed in front of a good lineup.
Elllsbury is terrific also, but again I reiterate, they’re not carbon copies of one another, they only share a common skill (speed) and general position (LF or CF).
Jacoby Ellsbury is hardly a “star.”
Counting stats don’t lie.
Eduardo Nunez has 19 RBI’s, same total as Gardner.
How many more plate appearances does Gardner need to vault past our backup infielder?
I think Gardner jams his wrist periodically stealing bases. That 10 game cold spell this year speaks to me of injury.
It would be interesting if Long let Gardner use his lower half more in hitting as in weight transfer and extension. The little guy has power. Might be too late now.
Gardner has gotten more grief from Yankee fans than any other player. I still remember the Melky debates. Ugh.
Gardner has a .288 .368 .348 .717 RISP line. He has 4 hits with the BASES LOADED and only collected 5 RBI. All you can ask of players is to perform to the situation.
“Counting stats don’t lie.”
________________________
Are you kidding?
Counting stats couldn’t do anything BUT lie.
They are useless. Unless you think Mark Teixeira is having an elite season this year or something.
Before/After on Montero called up by Aug 7th? I still think hes traded. If not, before.
JonLaneNYC Today in #Yankees history (1984): A plaque is dedicated in honor of Roger Maris in Monument Park.
bw51official On my way to Nashville for Summer NAMM. It’s the first time I’ve ever been to Nashville. Very excited to see the… http://fb.me/OHAjeZnF
If Gardner had Ellsbury’s stats in eithe of his healthy years, we’d all be clamoring about how awesome he is, and the face of the team, and yada yada.
Ellsbury is a legit 1_A outfielder in every aspect of baseball. You can believe whatever it is you’d like to, but Gardner isn’t on his level. He’s good, but not that good
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I would not call Gardner the face of the team, thats crazy. Ellsbury is not a star, thats all I said. In this very thread I said Gardner would be hard pressed to beat Ellsbury if he keeps up his power. Good player, but not a star. I wouldn’t pay Ellsbury 20 mil a year or give him a carl crawford contract. He is like Johnny Damon.
Doc Joe……The Lassie’s are here as we speak sporting Lemon Yellow …..Good thing the marine layer finally burnt off as it would be a shame not to see the sun’s illumination
Anyone would take Ellsbury over Gardner.
But Gardner is ours. He has his own qualities that make him a good player and easy to root for.
Ellsbury better…but not a star.
Melky is having a career year, would you call him a star?
Do you people just selectively block out some of my posts so that you can say ranty stuff like ‘believe what you liek gardner isn’t on his level!~~!’
Bret still wants to replace Gardner with Grady Sizemore – who is back on the DL for the third time this season.
Ellsbury > Gardner.
More power & higher baseball IQ.
IMO Ellsbury could develop into Johnny Damon. Brett Gardner could develop into Juan Pierre.
One other point should be noted about Ellsbury. He plays in a very good hitter’s park.
His career BA and OBP are nearly 20 points lower on the road and his SLG% is nearly 50 points lower.
I am not discounting him as a hitter, but Fenway Park increases statistical outputs more than any park in MLB outside of Colorado and Texas.
Giuseppe Franco July 21st, 2011 at 3:15 pm
Bret still wants to replace Gardner with Grady Sizemore – who is back on the DL for the third time this season.
———–
Second time. He was already on with the knee and just had the hernia surgery too – much like Joba on for the elbow had his appendix out.
Can we all at least agree that Gardner would beat Ellsbury in a foot race to their respectalbe positions no matter what dugout their coming out of?
but he gets on base just as much and has stolen more bases at a better rate.
If you’re saying Brett Gardner is a better base stealer than Jacoby Ellsbury, I can now officially say I’m stupider for even reading it.
JE: 164/34 in 444 games.
BG: 116/25 in 400 games (you know, Melky took all those games from him when he wasn’t good enough to play everyday).
The Mets are Pond Scum July 21st, 2011 at 3:17 pm
One other point should be noted about Ellsbury. He plays in a very good hitter’s park.
His career BA and OBP are nearly 20 points lower on the road and his SLG% is nearly 50 points lower.
I am not discounting him as a hitter, but Fenway Park increases statistical outputs more than any park in MLB outside of Colorado and Texas.
————-
Gardner plays in a hitter’s park too.
Also. Is it just me or does Ellsbury look like a young Damon when his batting helmet is on?
Ellsbury is better this year. He’s having a career year. I wouldn’t put it in stone that the player he is this year is the player he’s going to be forever.
Gardner is a weapon on this team. He changes the games both offensively and defensively and only shows room for improvement. I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility that he hits .300 regularly.
As long as he doesn’t choke when Girardi puts him atop the lineup again (and I think he will put him there) I think the rest of the season is going to shock a lot of people. He was slumping early on this year with a confidence issue. Hopefully, that is resolved.
Chip,
Brett Gardner similar to Juan Pierre? Are you kidding?
What, they both wear their socks high?
Gardner probably hates the name Juan Pierre.
I’d replace Gardner with the carcass of Grady Sizemore.
Chip July 21st, 2011 at 3:18 pm
The Mets are Pond Scum July 21st, 2011 at 3:17 pm
One other point should be noted about Ellsbury. He plays in a very good hitter’s park.
His career BA and OBP are nearly 20 points lower on the road and his SLG% is nearly 50 points lower.
I am not discounting him as a hitter, but Fenway Park increases statistical outputs more than any park in MLB outside of Colorado and Texas.
————-
Gardner plays in a hitter’s park too.
———————————————————
Only if you’re a LH power hitter who pulls the ball.
Pat M. – Lemon Yellow, huh………
If you’re saying Brett Gardner is a better base stealer than Jacoby Ellsbury, I can now officially say I’m stupider for even reading it.
–
This season. I didn’t say he was better, just that he has stolen more at a better rate *this year* But not for nothing, Gardner has a higher career rate (by 1%) but steals 3% less in terms of opportunities.
Gardner plays in a hitter’s park too.
–
Yankee stadium is quite neutral and deflates hits/doubles/triples
Ellsbury’s nearly a career .300 hitter. He’s always been fast. He’s always had pop. Ellsbury’s year isn’t too far off from his skillset or his career rates.
No, Melky isn’t a star. But I still take the Melkman over BG every day of the week. Especially in this lineup.
If Gardner had the name Juan Pierre, hed probably be benched or traded. Juany? Pierrie? Doesnt have the same ring to it as Gardy.
JE: 164/34 in 444 games.
BG: 116/25 in 400 games (you know, Melky took all those games from him when he wasn’t good enough to play everyday).
–
This analysis is misleading. Games includes defensive subs. Ellsbury has 600 more PA than Gardner. And in those 600 PA you think Gardner ain’t gonna steal 50 bags?
Ellsbury’s nearly a career .300 hitter. He’s always been fast. He’s always had pop. Ellsbury’s year isn’t too far off from his skillset or his career rates.
–
He has never hit double digit HRs in his career ever. He had 8 and 9 in his first 2 fullseasons. Never double digits in the minors. He has doubled his power rate this year which is crazy, it has literally come out of nowhere.
The only thing that Fenway and YS share are the measurement of the base paths. Fenway has the most unique feature in baseball, it’s different from each and other stadium in that regard.
Who’s playing LF when the carcass is on the DL? And does he even play the corners? Unless you’re moving Granderson off CF?
For all you Ellsbury lovers. I have news for you. C.C. will not be inviting him to his birthday.
The Mets are Pond Scum July 21st, 2011 at 3:19 pm
Chip,
Brett Gardner similar to Juan Pierre? Are you kidding?
What, they both wear their socks high?
——————
Not an insult to Gardner to call him Pierre – Pierre’s had a very solid career. Just a speedy guy who plays good defense and doesn’t give you any power.
Ellsbury – and Damon – just have the added dimension that they can hit the ball with more authority than Gardner/Pierre will.
Would it sting less if instead of Pierre I said Podsednik or Bourn?
No, Melky isn’t a star. But I still take the Melkman over BG every day of the week. Especially in this lineup.
–
Oh… this is what I am arguing with, never mind then.
Ellsbury’s spray chart doesn’t include their wall at all. He’s a gap hitter, as is Gardner. At least Gardner can take advantage of the park he plays in – Ellsbury has to BOMB the ball to get it out of RF in Fenway.
I’m not seeing the advantage/disadvantage he has when he doesn’t use the wall?
This analysis is misleading. Games includes defensive subs. Ellsbury has 600 more PA than Gardner. And in those 600 PA you think Gardner ain’t gonna steal 50 bags?
____________________________________________________________
Astute reasoning here.
Gardner’s upside is probably Billy Butler
Joe, If there’s anything I dislike more is a guy like Pat teasing a starving man talking about dessert. He does this to us every week.
You know, its amazing how little respect Brett Gardner still gets amongst Yankee fans and the media alike.
Unfortunately it seems that barring something unexpected he’s going to be perpetually trapped by the perception of “grittiness” and “scrapiness” that also is an inherent hindrance on people seeing him to be as great of a ballplayer as he actually is.
He has pretty clearly been the Yankees second, or at worst, third best player this season.
Jerkface July 21st, 2011 at 3:21 pm
Gardner plays in a hitter’s park too.
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Yankee stadium is quite neutral and deflates hits/doubles/triples
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you have to go sit in the corner for that. In every incarnation of Yankee Stadium old or new it has always been friendly to left handed hitters.
Fenway has the most unique feature in baseball
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Yes. Rats, piss oder only to be trumped by sweaty armpits sitting next to each other in baby chairs to watch games. Oh and the little league field as well.
It’s totally ridiculous to argue about whether someone is a “star” or not. That’s a subjective word and is meaningless in terms of anything substantive when you are trying to evaluate or compare players.
Ellsbury: 15 home runs – 54 RBI’s – .316/.375/.509/.884
Gardner: 4 home runs – 19 RBI’s – .291/.372/.419/.791
It’s not even close!
Howard July 21st, 2011 at 3:17 pm
but he gets on base just as much and has stolen more bases at a better rate.
If you’re saying Brett Gardner is a better base stealer than Jacoby Ellsbury, I can now officially say I’m stupider for even reading it.
JE: 164/34 in 444 games.
BG: 116/25 in 400 games (you know, Melky took all those games from him when he wasn’t good enough to play everyday).
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This is total cherry picking.
How many of Gardner’s games were full games? Granted, he pinch ran in many games, but he was also a defensive replacement and pinch hitter in many more. You’re making a comparison not based upon an accurate common standard.
Further, gross SB’s are necessarily inidicative of player’s true basestealing ability. Just ask Rickey Henderson. In the 1st 10 years of his career, his SB totals were dramatically higher when he was managed by Billy Martin and significantly lower when he was not.
Was he a poorer basestealer in the non-Martin years? Of course not. A stylistic difference in managers.
Ellsbury is fortunate that he has a very good 2 hole hitter in Pedroia who facilitates many of his SB.
We’re not really talking HR. All you have to do is bounce it off the wall to get a hit on what otherwise would be a lazy flyball in any other stadium.
But point well taken on Ellsbury spray chart. You meant that he hardly has any hits there, right?
He has never hit double digit HRs in his career ever. He had 8 and 9 in his first 2 fullseasons. Never double digits in the minors. He has doubled his power rate this year which is crazy, it has literally come out of nowhere.
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I heard he tweaked his stance. It seems that he did, just eyeballing it. That could logically account for the increased power, coupled with consistency/health this season.
“grittiness”
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We can thank Pete for this.
G-C July 21st, 2011 at 3:25 pm
You know, its amazing how little respect Brett Gardner still gets amongst Yankee fans and the media alike.
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G-C, I was just going to say the same thing.
you have to go sit in the corner for that. In every incarnation of Yankee Stadium old or new it has always been friendly to left handed hitters.
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Left handed POWER HITTERS. It actually takes away doubles and singles for lefthanders because there is less ground for RFers to cover and balls off the wall can hold runners to singles.
Centerfield and leftfield are huge by comparison. The park factors show that Yankee Stadium gives up less triples, less doubles, and less hits than average for all parks. Just like Citifield suppresses HRs but gives up more triples because long fly balls bounce all over the wacky wall configurations.
“GGBG”
Abraham’s greatest contribution to baseball.
Or is it LoHud?
No one is disrespecting Brett Gardner.
Just because people are pointing out that he’s not an All-Star player doesn’t mean that they are automatically saying Gardner isn’t a good major leaguer or that he doesn’t have a place on the team.
There just happen to be players out there, in his position, who are better than him. There are players who are better than Mark Teixeira – it doesn’t mean he’s not a darn fine ballplayer.
Yanks78 July 21st, 2011 at 3:25 pm
Gardner’s upside is probably Billy Butler
Gardner is never likely to hit 50 doubles, 20 homers and 100 RBI like Billy Butler.
If you’re talking about Brett Butler, maybe. Gardner is the superior defensive player, though.
And in those 600 PA you think Gardner ain?t gonna steal 50 bags?
In another career year, yes. He had 569/47 in the best year to date.
Gardener also started driving the ball a lot more this season. Not monstrously, or anything, but I’d say it’s much more solid contact.
In another career year, yes. He had 569/47 in the best year to date.
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In another career year? No, in any year, he just needs 600 PA. He has had good SB paces in every season he has played, even though the first 2 were just part time.
Sorry for bringing up the Gardner vs. Ells.
Did not know it would make some of you look like this.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/bl.....lb-wp13298
Chip,
Pierre, Posednik, and Bourn do not walk at nearly the rate that Gardner does. Thus, their OBP (by far the most critical number for a leadoff hitter) isn’t even in the same league.
Further, your original comparison to Pierre is miles off as Pierre is a mediocre basethief at best (extremely high CS rate) and his value as an OF is limited by his Johnny Damon like arm (I’m sure the safeties are off).
And again, Yankee Stadium is a good hitter’s park if you’re a LH power hitter who pulls the ball (hello Dan Pasqua), not a Brett Gardner type player.
Fenway allows for a great number of singles and doubles off that big green thing in LF that would be outs in most other parks and it has virtually no foul territory giving batters a number of second lives over the course of a season.
Gardner and Jeter switched roles this season. One is now a gap hitter while the other is an infield singles hitter.
I would take Ellsbury over Gardner because he’s a better hitter and Ill take the better hitter every time long term because they’ll age better…..that doesn’t mean Gardner isn’t a good player and can’t rival his value over the next 5 years. Gardner had a 6.2 WAR last year and is already at 3.9 this year…..
m July 21st, 2011 at 3:30 pm
“GGBG”
Abraham’s greatest contribution to baseball.
Or is it LoHud?
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A true legend.
But point well taken on Ellsbury spray chart. You meant that he hardly has any hits there, right?
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Yes. No HR over the wall this year, and only four of his 2B’s if I’m reading it right. He doesn’t have the power to go the other way, but pulls the shat out of the ball.
He has more homeruns, and nearly equal doubles (2) on the road as at home. Fenway isn’t helping him at all other than his traditional stats. He has more hits, runs, doubles, walks, OBP, and SLG% on the road this year. Fenway isn’t helping his numbers at all.
I would pay to see a footrace between Billy Butler and Brett Gardner.
CC doesn’t celebrate his birthday.
His birthday celebrates him.
Wouldnt mind if Gardner ended up like Brett Butler.
Chip July 21st, 2011 at 3:32 pm
No one is disrespecting Brett Gardner.
Just because people are pointing out that he’s not an All-Star player doesn’t mean that they are automatically saying Gardner isn’t a good major leaguer or that he doesn’t have a place on the team.
There just happen to be players out there, in his position, who are better than him. There are players who are better than Mark Teixeira – it doesn’t mean he’s not a darn fine ballplayer.
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Exactly, great post! It never ceases to amaze me how disingenuous some here are in misrepresenting what people say.
This is the sort of return Alderson is reportedly asking for in exchange for Beltran.
“•The Phillies have been scouting Beltran and the Mets have been scouting the Braves’ system in anticipation of possible trades, according to Adam Rubin of ESPNNewYork.com. The Mets may try to obtain Randall Delgado or Arodys Vizcaino from the Braves, Rubin reports.” That’s a bit steep for a 2 month rental.
SoS,
You really stired up the pot!!!, back to work
Howard,
No wonder Ells was trying to force a trade.
The Mets are Pond Scum July 21st, 2011 at 3:38 pm
I would pay to see a footrace between Billy Butler and Brett Gardner.
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Gardner would be on first before Billy Butler got out of the batter’s box.
GreenBeret7 July 21st, 2011 at 3:41 pm
This is the sort of return Alderson is reportedly asking for in exchange for Beltran.
“•The Phillies have been scouting Beltran and the Mets have been scouting the Braves’ system in anticipation of possible trades, according to Adam Rubin of ESPNNewYork.com. The Mets may try to obtain Randall Delgado or Arodys Vizcaino from the Braves, Rubin reports.” That’s a bit steep for a 2 month rental.
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Seconded.
Fenway allows for a great number of singles and doubles off that big green thing in LF that would be outs in most other parks and it has virtually no foul territory giving batters a number of second lives over the course of a season.
Agreed, if you use it.
If that’s true lol at them wanting Viz for Beltran
NotHankStein:
Just read Girardi said Arod’s been rehabbing in a pool. God, what I’d give to find that pool.
Really pissed stupid sexy Hal didn’t let me see the McCarteny concerts. I love the Rolling Stones!
Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ledger_Yankees Moment of silence for Martin’s ‘stache. It’s gone.
Howard July 21st, 2011 at 3:44 pm
Fenway allows for a great number of singles and doubles off that big green thing in LF that would be outs in most other parks and it has virtually no foul territory giving batters a number of second lives over the course of a season.
Agreed, if you use it.
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That wall made Jody Reed.
The deep outfield configuration of right and center also enhances singles/doubles for hitters going to RF.
The carcass has surgery. Out 4-6 weeks.
In other news, Joshh Hamilton is using eyedrops, eyelid scrubs, and will debut a special pair of sunglasses this afternoon to battle his inherent problems with playing in sunlight.
BTW, I have nothing against Sizemore. In fact he’s the cutest carcass I have ever seen!
Tampa Yankee Infants hammered the Tiger brats 18-2 today. bichette was 3-4, 3 runs scored 4 RBI and hit by pitches twice.
Final Box score
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.....k_tgrrok_1
Lets make the comparisons that we SHOULD be making…
Gardner – .361 wOBA, 3.9 WAR
Crawford – .295 wOBA, 0.2 WAR
Sounds like Bichette wants to be on the fast track!
Scranton squeaks by Columbus 6-5 after Wordekemper, Flores and Carlyle almost blew the lead. Pendleton gets the start and win, Russo with 3 doubles and Austin Krum was 3-3 with a double, 2 runs scored and an RBI. Montero didn’t play.
Final Box score
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.....a_colaaa_1
3-1 series win
m July 21st, 2011 at 3:50 pm
The carcass has surgery. Out 4-6 weeks.
In other news, Joshh Hamilton is using eyedrops, eyelid scrubs, and will debut a special pair of sunglasses this afternoon to battle his inherent problems with playing in sunlight.
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Perhaps a little Max Factor to lengthen and separate and make his eyelashes longer and fuller.
Day game after night game for Montero?
Lets make the comparisons that we SHOULD be making?
Gardner ? .361 wOBA, 3.9 WAR
Crawford ? .295 wOBA, 0.2 WAR
haha.
Funny, but somehow I think probably not going to last. Baseball cards on 28 year old all-stars are not often wrong.
Maybe he had a shot in his back?
Perhaps a little Max Factor to lengthen and separate and make his eyelashes longer and fuller.
hahahaha.
Sizemore was one of my favorite non-Yankee players a few years back. The guy could do it all.
But injuries have essentially destroyed his career. He hasn’t played much over the past few seasons and he may never play a full season again. It’s a shame, really.
Which is why it’s ludicrous to DEMAND Cashman trade for the guy a week after his return in May to replace a guy that may not be an all-star but has been a pretty good player and very under-appreciated for this team in the last two seasons.
Sizemore, even if he was back healthy now, is not even remotely close to the guy produced big numbers before his body began falling apart on him.
Hate Gardner all you want, but wanting him replaced by carcasses for the sake of replacing him is downright moronic.
Good thing Cashman doesn’t quite see it that way.
Montero didn’t play.
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Call up, traded, rest or injured?
who is “the carcass”? I missed something…
Here’s a quick non-scientific poll:
Is Jesus Montero still a Yankee on August 1st?
A). YES
B.) NO
“•The Phillies have been scouting Beltran and the Mets have been scouting the Braves’ system in anticipation of possible trades, according to Adam Rubin of ESPNNewYork.com. The Mets may try to obtain Randall Delgado or Arodys Vizcaino from the Braves, Rubin reports.” That’s a bit steep for a 2 month rental.
That’s steep yes…..but the Braves could lose Vizciano on the pitching front and be fine. Just depends on how much they want to go for it this year…….didn’t I read they had moved him to the bulllpen anyway?
# Howard July 21st, 2011 at 4:05 pm
who is “the carcass”? I missed something…
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# Bret The Hitman July 21st, 2011 at 3:20 pm
I’d replace Gardner with the carcass of Grady Sizemore.
NotHankStein Just overheard Cashman saying “I’m holding onto Jesus”. It’s about time that little nerd found some religion!
Iv been doing alot of thinking on this(about a minute to be exact) and I think we should go after Pujols next season. Have him play first and third rotating with Alex at the dh spot. If thats not to your liking. Trade tex to the Cards once you sign him. They might be in need of a first baseman after that.
B.
The surgery Sizemore had has an 80% success rate. In seeing how long he has been out, along with the additional injuries and problems this year, I am wondering if he is in that unfortunate 20%. He plays the game hard, maybe too hard for his own good, and now its costing him big time.
GF
I totally agree, if Sizemore had been racking up his numbers as a Yankee a few years back he would have been a GOD with fans in NY….
Tremendous ballplayer.. was.Now he is a shell of his former self and is certainly not a viable trade target with his continued injury problems and especially his salary.
GF.
B
GreenBeret7 July 21st, 2011 at 4:01 pm
m July 21st, 2011 at 3:50 pm
The carcass has surgery. Out 4-6 weeks.
In other news, Joshh Hamilton is using eyedrops, eyelid scrubs, and will debut a special pair of sunglasses this afternoon to battle his inherent problems with playing in sunlight.
????????????????????????????????????????-
Perhaps a little Max Factor to lengthen and separate and make his eyelashes longer and fuller.
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I was going to suggest some pre-game James Brown music.
Anyone happy that we didnt end up getting Maur if he had ever hit free agency?
Tremendous ballplayer.. was.Now he is a shell of his former self and is certainly not a viable trade target with his continued injury problems and especially his salary.
Not unless you give up nothing, and give him the rest of this year off and start him fresh in February.
It’s a risk I’d take for a couple mid-level prospects. His problem is that as soon as he can walk, Cleveland throws him right back in the soup.
SoS July 21st, 2011 at 4:08 pm
Iv been doing alot of thinking on this(about a minute to be exact) and I think we should go after Pujols next season. Have him play first and third rotating with Alex at the dh spot. If thats not to your liking. Trade tex to the Cards once you sign him. They might be in need of a first baseman after that.
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The only reason Pujols may leave is because St. Louis is averse to spending $25+/year for their 1B. Tex is with NY for the life of that contract.
Besides, Pujols is at 1B because he was a lousy 3B and mediocre LF.
GF- B
I don’t think any of us are ragging on Brett at all….I think he’s one of the most improved players in the game…..That being said, I just don’t think it’s fair to compare him to Ellsbury as he’s a very skilled ballplayer……With so many clubs still in the hunt for October these next 10 days should be interesting and expensive for the buying sector……
SoS July 21st, 2011 at 4:11 pm
Anyone happy that we didnt end up getting Maur if he had ever hit free agency?
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Multiple year contracts to free agent catchers are rarely a sound move. Unfortunately, Minnesota was stuck between a rock and a hard place.
The only reason Pujols may leave is because St. Louis is averse to spending $25+/year for their 1B. Tex is with NY for the life of that contract.
Besides, Pujols is at 1B because he was a lousy 3B and mediocre LF.
Does anyone think that STL may consider moving Holliday due to the impending negotiations with AP? I mean, it would make it a lot easier to sign him if they got back three or four great prospects, MLB ready or close (especially NL), and shed themselves of Holliday?
Montero stays.
The Mauer deal is looking like it coukd be an albatross from an on field standpoint……he does put butts in the seats but still. Even if he can remain a catcher for a couple years they didn’t pay that for a high average 8 homer a year hitter. They wanted the guy from 2009…..which is looking like an outlier….
If Sizemore had racked up those numbers as a Yankee, then we’d still be depending on Gardner because of the amount of time Sizemore would miss.
Who was the last position player that was well liked, but spent a significant amount of time injured? They weren’t exactly considered god.
# Pat M. July 21st, 2011 at 4:13 pm
I don’t think any of us are ragging on Brett at all….I think he’s one of the most improved players in the game…..That being said, I just don’t think it’s fair to compare him to Ellsbury as he’s a very skilled ballplayer……With so many clubs still in the hunt for October these next 10 days should be interesting and expensive for the buying sector……
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I’m not one of those people who obsessively wants to compare Yankee players with their counterparts on the Red Sox.
Teixeira and Gonzalez, Pedroia and Cano, Lester and Sabathia, A-Rod and Youkilis…..and on and on.
MLB doesn’t hand out trophies to those who have the edge in a one-on-one match up with their rivals. IMO, it’s a pointless exercise, but fans on both sides seem to love doing it.
I just think Gardner should be appreciated for simply bringing what he does to the table – not devaluing the guy because he may or may not be as good as his so-called counterpart in Boston.
GF – I think Jesus is with us August 1. (Praise the Lord!)
Brett definitely is a good ML ballplayer. Just that Ellsbury is having a better year, showing more power. It will be interesting to see how their careers play out, but right now I think Ellsbury is the better all around player. Which doesn’t mean that Brett is bad, not at all.
I also believe Montero stays. Early returns seem pretty one-sided.
MLB doesn?t hand out trophies to those who have the edge in a one-on-one match up with their rivals. IMO, it?s a pointless exercise, but fans on both sides seem to love doing it.
I just think Gardner should be appreciated for simply bringing what he does to the table ? not devaluing the guy because he may or may not be as good as his so-called counterpart in Boston.
GF – says it all.
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-.....id=6787451
Grandy man talking about black fans.
How about a perfecto today? Happy Girthday big guy!
The ragging on Brett comment was born out of what continuously occurs here. Blaming Brett for the woes of this team when he struggles. No one says a word now because he’s on fire in all facets of his game. But if goes through another stretch where he struggles with the bat, the stats and criticism will pop up. Even though he comes out of his slumps much more quickly than his teammates who earn up to 40X what he makes.
Brett is one of the best at making the most out of the least. In that sense, he is underappreciated because he is actually giving us more than we thought he would. I don’t see how anyone can be disappointed in what he offers.
Got to see Jesus hit the ball hard the opposite way last night in Columbus. My son got his auto before the game. That means he won’t be traded. Right?
eboland11 Phil Hughes departs clubhouse, flying back a day early for his start tomorrow night
i think they keep montero. i seriously doubt that an elite player will be available at the deadline. i think the rockies are just making headlines with this, his contract is basically free for a ml team.
New Post: No lineup, no stache
Now that Houston has decided to make him available I would absolutely go after Hunter Pence.
Montero, Nunez and Phelps for Pence and Clint Barmes (to take over for Nunez as the utility IF for the remainder of the year)
The only real thing keeping Ellsbury from being an elite center fielder for at least this year, is defense. Overall, more consistancy from year to year.
SoS July 21st, 2011 at 4:04 pm
Montero didn’t play.
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Call up, traded, rest or injured?
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Orders from Cashman. The more the Yanks don’t play Montero, the more Cashman see’s him being discussed. Cash likes to be talked about. No such thing as bad publicity.